PDA

View Full Version : Many be dead or died !



beloved57
July 13th, 2017, 09:25 AM
Rom 5:15

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

This scripture teaches the solidarity that Gods Elect had with their Natural Head Adam, this Union was so real that when Adam sinned with the Elect in his loins so to speak, they died in and with him, and so all the Elect are naturally born into the world dead, having died through the offence of One, their natural Head Adam !

beloved57
July 13th, 2017, 10:05 AM
Many be dead or died !2
The word dead in our text is the greek word apothnÚskˇ and means here:

, to become wholly alienated from a thing, and freed from all connection with it:

So by nature the elect, as an consequence of their dying, being made dead in Adam are alienated from the Life of God, freed from any connection with it Eph 4:18

Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Col 1:21

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Now many will try to say that these scriptures apply to only gentiles however thats inaccurate, for it applies to all men who died in Adam. Now was it only gentiles in Adam in the beginning ? Or was it all nations Acts 17:26

6 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Now all men from the one blood Adam Naturally are naturally born dead, alienated from God:

to alienate, estrange; passive "to be rendered ἀλλότριος, to be shut out from one's fellowship and intimacy"

beloved57
July 13th, 2017, 11:23 AM
Many be dead or died !3


Now because of the oneness the elect had with adam its certain they should bear his image 1 Cor 15:49

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The elect bore the image of the earthy by their earthy natural existence, which was predestinated, because it must be for them to bare the image of the heavenly which was predestinated Rom 8:28-29

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

And the predetermined route to that end is to first bare the image of the earthy. Acts 17:26

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Robert Pate
July 13th, 2017, 12:14 PM
Rom 5:15

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

This scripture teaches the solidarity that Gods Elect had with their Natural Head Adam, this Union was so real that when Adam sinned with the Elect in his loins so to speak, they died in and with him, and so all the Elect are naturally born into the world dead, having died through the offence of One, their natural Head Adam !


You make little to no sense. Adam brought sin and death upon all of humanity, Romans 5:12.

Jesus Christ brings righteousness and eternal life and offers it as a free gift, Romans 5:18.

"The FREE GIFT came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life" Romans 5:18.

beloved57
July 13th, 2017, 12:47 PM
You make little to no sense. Adam brought sin and death upon all of humanity, Romans 5:12.

Jesus Christ brings righteousness and eternal life and offers it as a free gift, Romans 5:18.

"The FREE GIFT came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life" Romans 5:18.
False statements!

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

Potter's Clay
July 13th, 2017, 01:55 PM
You make little to no sense. Adam brought sin and death upon all of humanity, Romans 5:12.

Jesus Christ brings righteousness and eternal life and offers it as a free gift, Romans 5:18.

"The FREE GIFT came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life" Romans 5:18.

To interpret Romans 5:18 in a universalistic mindset, you must tactfully misinterpret clear verses. You cannot claim that the Holy Spirit only "half way" plays a role in regeneration because we know salvation is because of anything we do.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Ask Mr. Religion
July 13th, 2017, 02:03 PM
You make little to no sense. Adam brought sin and death upon all of humanity, Romans 5:12.

Jesus Christ brings righteousness and eternal life and offers it as a free gift, Romans 5:18.

"The FREE GIFT came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life" Romans 5:18.

Paul in Romans 5 is not speaking about man's actual sin after Adam. For if every person contracts his own guilt by becoming a sinner by sinning, then one wonders why Paul bothers to form a comparison between Adam and Christ. Surely you do not intend to imply that we contract our own righteousness by being righteous? I hope not. The symmetry of Paul's comparison between fallen Adam's innate corruption and Our Lord innate righteousness, and the respective imputations of sin or righteousness upon man, is inescapable. Given what Paul has actually written, comparing Adam and Our Lord, it then follows that our innate and hereditary depravity and our Lord's innate and hereditary righteousness, imputed to us, is what is being referred to in Romans 5.

If we do not contract guilt by imputation, but instead become guilty by actually sinning, then we do not contract righteousness until we actually make ourselves righteous. This is the only conclusion of denial of the logical symmetry of Paul's argument, which is exactly why he formed the argument the way it was formed...including to illustrate the overlooked (in this thread) absurdity of assuming by just sinning more that grace will abound more in forgiveness. Yikes!

In another passage, 1 Cor. 15:21-22 Paul has moved from metaphor to typology, clarifying the point made in v. 20.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

The fact that Paul introduces Adam into his argument without any clarifying explanation suggests that he assumes some knowledge of the biblical story found in Genesis 1–3. He may have taught it to them himself when he founded the church in Corinth. To be in Adam is to be part of the group which finds in Adam its representative and leader, which finds its identity and destiny in Adam and what he has brought about for his people. To be in Christ is to be part of the group which finds in Christ its representative and leader, which finds its identity and destiny in Christ and what he has brought about for his people.

All humans who have not yet found redemption through faith in Christ remain in Adam. Those who have entered into the promise of new life, the life of Christ, are in Christ, and will find that their initial experience of the newness of life was but a foretaste of the ultimate restoration of life that awaits them in the resurrection. The expressions in Adam and in Christ reinforce the idea of corporate solidarity that is found in the firstfruits metaphor (1 Cor. 15:20) as well. We are in Adam because he was our head and representative, and because we partake of his nature. And we are in Christ because He is our head and representative, and because we partake of His nature through the indwelling of his Spirit. In Paul’s two Adams scheme, Christ represents all those under the covenant of grace (the elect), but not the entire human race— those who are in Adam. This can be seen by the comparison between the effects of sin, and the effects of Christ’s resurrection. Adam represents the entire human race. Jesus represents all those given Him by the Father (John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9; John 17:22; John 18:9). The two Adams stand in stark contrast to one another.

Paul’s use of the future tense—will be made alive—stresses the future, as-yet-unfulfilled aspect of Christ’s redeeming work, in keeping with where the argument is going in vv. 1 Cor: 15:23-28, where we are brought right to the ultimate consummation in which the reign of sin and death is completely demolished. The following verse, 1 Cor. 15:22, makes it clear that by “being made alive” Paul has in mind the resurrection since those who belong to him will be made alive (resurrected) “when he comes.”

As in Romans 5:12-21, Paul stresses the differences between Adam and Christ. The consequences of the resurrection of Christ (life for all) correspond antithetically to the consequences of Adam’s sin (death for all). The former has broken the power of the latter. Note that Paul is not teaching universalism (see 1 Cor. 1:18); the unqualified “all” of 1 Cor. 15:22 who will be made alive is clarified by 1 Cor. 15:23 with the phrase “those who belong to him.”

The fact that Christ, the firstfruits, has already been made alive clarifies that the new life of which Paul speaks is the resurrected life which has been the subject of this entire chapter. It also becomes evident that Paul is not concerned in this chapter with any resurrection of the unrighteous to judgment, but is fully focused on the question of the resurrection of the righteous, and of Christians in particular. Those who belong to Christ clarifies that not all the dead will enjoy the resurrection life Paul is describing here, but only those who are Christ’s (including the faithful people of God who died before Christ’s first coming). The expression also reinforces the idea of corporate solidarity that was already introduced with the firstfruits metaphor in 1 Cor. 15:20 and reiterated in the concept of “in Adam” and “in Christ” in 1 Cor. 15:22. Further, there is no suggestion that Christ would come to take his people away (as in dispensational rapture eschatology); the idea is that believers (and creation) will experience their ultimate renewal and glorification upon Christ’s return.

The 1 Cor. 15 passage is about bodily resurrection of those in Christ, but it is not divorced from passages elsewhere about those already resurrected in Christ, born-anew, right now, which explains the fact that Paul tells us elsewhere that we have been sealed by the Spirit (Romans 5, 2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13; 4:30) and that the Holy Spirit is the firstfruits (Rom. 8:23) and the first installment, deposit, down payment, (2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; Eph. 1:14) on what we are to experience once our redemption has been fully consummated. The veritable now, not yet often spoken of in Scripture.

Because of what Jesus has already done for us in conquering death and the grave, this establishes what is yet to come—that we too will be raised bodily from the dead on the last day. This is why Paul can speak of Christian believers as presently seated and raised with Christ in heavenly places. The first coming of Jesus Christ and his resurrection ensures that in the present age, every Christian believer is already raised with Christ. This is what we mean when we speak of the now/not yet distinction found throughout the New Testament. Because we are in Christ and already seen as seated with Him in heavenly places, we can be assured of the promise of the not yet—the resurrection of our bodies.

See also:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?124174-The-Most-Misunderstood-Passage-in-the-Bible-Romans-5-12-18&p=4981681&viewfull=1#post4981681

AMR

Epoisses
July 13th, 2017, 03:15 PM
Blather post!

Abraham in the previous chapter was the type or model of all believers or the elect.

Adam in the next chapter is specifically used as a type of the whole world seeing he was the father of mankind.

Calvinists like AMR are deceivers and will purposely obfuscate and make the simplest things as confusing as possible. The Hebrew word for Adam means 'mankind' because he was the father of all people - saved/lost, sheep/goats, wheat/tares. Evolution has destroyed this truth where most don't even believe in a creation account anymore but it is central to the gospel and Christ as the 2nd or last Adam.

Nanja
July 15th, 2017, 07:18 AM
Many be dead or died !3


Now because of the oneness the elect had with adam its certain they should bear his image 1 Cor 15:49

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The elect bore the image of the earthy by their earthy natural existence, which was predestinated, because it must be for them to bare the image of the heavenly which was predestinated Rom 8:28-29

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

And the predetermined route to that end is to first bare the image of the earthy. Acts 17:26

And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;


Amen to all three parts!

Therefore, the Many that be dead or died in Adam their federal head, consisted exclusively of all God's Elect Eph. 1:4-5; a Godly Seed Mal. 2:15, the One Blood of all nations Acts 17:26 which was made in the Image and Likeness of God Gen. 1:26-27, and which in time is manifested when they are conformed to Image of God's Son, their Surety Head and Mediator, and made Spiritually Alive in New Birth.

beloved57
July 15th, 2017, 09:24 AM
Amen to all three parts!

Therefore, the Many that be dead or died in Adam their federal head, consisted exclusively of all God's Elect Eph. 1:4-5; a Godly Seed Mal. 2:15, the One Blood of all nations Acts 17:26 which was made in the Image and Likeness of God Gen. 1:26-27, and which in time is manifested when they are conformed to Image of God's Son, their Surety Head and Mediator, and made Spiritually Alive in New Birth.

Absolutely correct ! I praise God for you !

Nanja
July 15th, 2017, 10:05 AM
Absolutely correct ! I praise God for you !

TY ! I'm praising Him for you too !

beloved57
July 15th, 2017, 12:16 PM
The Elect had an Oneness with Christ before time began, having been Chosen in Him before the foundation Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath ​chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This solidarity with Christ was before that one they had with Adam in time, at the beginning of the Creation.

And because of this previous union with Christ, the fall in Adam couldn't disanull it. In fact their fall was part of a predetermined redemptive purpose, and so as an consequence of their union with Christ:

the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

The Grace of God, by One Man Jesus Christ abounds unto them, as a Gift, bringing the bestowal of all Spiritual Blessings upon them Eph 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The words "blessed us" in Vs 3 has to do with the conferring of benefit upon ! Part of that Benefit is Life, Spiritual Life, which is a Spiritual Blessing as per Union with Christ, just as alienation of Spiritual life was parcel to their union with Adam in the fall.

Nanja
July 18th, 2017, 07:14 AM
The Elect had an Oneness with Christ before time began, having been Chosen in Him before the foundation Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath ​chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This solidarity with Christ was before that one they had with Adam in time, at the beginning of the Creation.

And because of this previous union with Christ, the fall in Adam couldn't disanull it. In fact their fall was part of a predetermined redemptive purpose, and so as an consequence of their union with Christ:

the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

The Grace of God, by One Man Jesus Christ abounds unto them, as a Gift, bringing the bestowal of all Spiritual Blessings upon them Eph 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The words "blessed us" in Vs 3 has to do with the conferring of benefit upon ! Part of that Benefit is Life, Spiritual Life, which is a Spiritual Blessing as per Union with Christ, just as alienation of Spiritual life was parcel to their union with Adam in the fall.


So True! The Elect in their federal head Adam, according to God's redemptive plan in Christ Jesus, were confirmed as sinners and alienated from spiritual life. But because God's Grace was given them before the world began 2 Tim. 1:9; Rom. 5:15, they were already Blessed with non imputation of sin Ps. 32:1-2, by the Blood of Christ Rev. 13:8 in the Mind and Purpose of God Eph. 3:11, being Chosen in Union with Him their Surety Head Heb. 7:22. And so as a consequence, their Oneness with Christ is made evident in each one of them when they are Born of His Spirit and given Faith to Believe on Him Phil. 1:29, Gal. 5:22.