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Angel4Truth
July 12th, 2017, 09:42 PM
False ‘Message Bible’ Creator Changes Mind on Homosexuality, Says He Would Officiate ‘Gay Wedding’ (http://christiannews.net/2017/07/12/false-message-bible-creator-changes-mind-on-homosexuality-says-he-would-officiate-gay-wedding/)


Eugene Peterson, the creator of the 2002 “Message Bible” modern paraphrase, states that he has changed his mind on the issue of homosexuality and would be willing to officiate a same-sex ceremony if he were pastoring a church today.

“I wouldn’t have said this 20 years ago, but now I know a lot of people who are gay and lesbian and they seem to have as good a spiritual life as I do. I think that kind of debate about lesbians and gays might be over,” he told Jonathan Merritt of Religion News Service, who published an interview with Peterson on Wednesday (http://religionnews.com/2017/07/12/eugene-peterson-on-changing-his-mind-about-same-sex-issues-and-marriage/).

Peterson, who led Christ Our King Presbyterian Church in Maryland for nearly 30 years before his retirement in 1991, had been asked if his views on homosexuality have changed over time and what his beliefs are on the morality of the issue. He explained that he never made “a big deal” about homosexuality in his congregation, and that he was pleased at how his members never questioned the allowance of an openly homosexual man to serve as music director.

The man had applied for the position as the former worship leader left her post at the same time Peterson retired.

“When he found out about the opening, he showed up in church one day and stood up and said, ‘I’d like to apply for the job of music director here, and I’m gay,'” Peterson recalled. “We didn’t have any gay people in the whole congregation. Well, some of them weren’t openly gay. But I was so pleased with the congregation. Nobody made any questions about it. And he was a really good musician.”

He said that he thinks that the Church is in a “transition for the best” on the issue, and doesn’t see it as a matter of right and wrong.

“People who disapprove of it, they’ll probably just go to another church,” Peterson stated. “So we’re in a transition and I think it’s a transition for the best, for the good. I don’t think it’s something that you can parade, but it’s not a right or wrong thing as far as I’m concerned.”

When asked if he would be willing to officiate a same-sex ceremony for “Christians of good faith” if he were pastoring today, Peterson replied in the affirmative.

Release of the interview has troubled a number of Christians, including Owen Strachan, an associate professor of Christian Theology at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Kansas City, Missouri. He especially lamented Peterson’s remarks that homosexuality is “not a right or wrong thing.”

“These are not sound words. We are called not merely to abstain from sin, but to avoid giving approval to those who indulge in it (see the implication of Romans 1:32),” Strachan wrote in a response on Wednesday. “None who practice homosexuality, and who take it as their identity, will inherit the kingdom of Heaven (Romans 6:9-11). We recall Paul’s strong words: without holiness no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).”

He noted that there is a difference between those who repent of their sins, and those who willingly and flagrantly violate God’s law and make their sin their very life.

“There is a great gap of a difference between people who sin and then repent, and people who sin and do not repent and even make it a positive part of their identity,” he noted. “Those who brazenly sin against God are those who must face church discipline and be warned that they are in danger of nothing less than eternal judgment (1 Cor. 5).”

Strachan urged Christians to pray for Peterson and not to lose heart in a world where many professing evangelicals are turning away from the truth.

“[L]et us pray for Eugene Peterson, that he may return to the old paths,” he exhorted, “and let us instruct the younger generation of Christians, for the pressure upon them is great, and there is only one way to God: the way of repentant faithfulness.”

Peterson’s “Message Bible” does not specifically mention homosexuality, but instead reads as its paraphrase for 1 Corinthians 6:9, “Unjust people who don’t care about God will not be joining in His kingdom. Those who use and abuse each other, use and abuse sex, use and abuse the earth and everything in it, don’t qualify as citizens in God’s kingdom.”

But even the American Bible Society’s New International Version, which reportedly included a lesbian as a stylistic consultant, reads, “Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who have sex with men, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor slanderers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

The King James Version reads, “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners shall inherit the kingdom of God.”

Agree or disagree, and is the measure of whats ok with God, now how spiritual someone seems?

Edit, he retracted - see retraction here in thread: http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?126035-False-%91Message-Bible%92-Creator-Changes-Mind-on-Homosexuality-Says-He-Would-Officiate&p=5065789&viewfull=1#post5065789

Tambora
July 13th, 2017, 12:42 AM
I think GOD's grace is sufficient, and not determined by the behavior of mankind.
Free and not earned.

For one to believe this, they would have to concede that, yes, an openly practicing homo can indeed be just as saved as I am (who still sins in the flesh).

Stuu
July 13th, 2017, 01:49 AM
Agree or disagree, and is the measure of whats ok with God, now how spiritual someone seems?
I've never understood why gay people bother themselves with christianity.

Stuart

Truster
July 13th, 2017, 02:57 AM
I've never understood why gay people bother themselves with christianity.

Stuart

Because they seek approval and in seeking it from false brethren and false teachers they undermine the confidence of the babes.

Epoisses
July 13th, 2017, 06:33 AM
More sick fruit from the Calvinist/Reformed false gospel where men and women are just globs of clay with no personal responsibility. This is the gospel that Truster espouses.

Truster
July 13th, 2017, 12:46 PM
More sick fruit from the Calvinist/Reformed false gospel where men and women are just globs of clay with no personal responsibility. This is the gospel that Truster espouses.

Adam had a personal responsibility in his perfection and look what happened to him. You expect the sons of Adam fallen to do better. Class A stupid.

Epoisses
July 13th, 2017, 03:08 PM
Adam had a personal responsibility in his perfection and look what happened to him. You expect the sons of Adam fallen to do better. Class A stupid.

To reject personal responsibility makes you a hyper-Calvinist.

Why aren't there any moderates on this forum just the worthless hypers?

I can speak peacefully to moderates but not you.

Stuu
July 13th, 2017, 03:12 PM
Because they seek approval and in seeking it from false brethren and false teachers they undermine the confidence of the babes.
I'm sure that explains a proportion of cases.

Others probably have scriptural interpretations that are just as convincing as the bigots' interpretations. You just have to jettison Saul of Tarsus, really, and believe that Jesus fulfilled the law in the name of love or some such other platitude.

That has the characters in your scene swapped around; they seek approval and in seeking it from false brethren and false teachers the confidence of the babes is destroyed, and young gay people take their own lives because of those religious zealots and busy bodies who would love to see the people who happen not to be like themselves be punished. Is your god really against humans loving other humans, from whichever part of the spectrum of sexuality to whichever other part of it? A god that hates love doesn't deserve worship.

A third category are those who join for the tea and chat, and fair enough.

Stuart

Squeaky
July 13th, 2017, 03:16 PM
False ‘Message Bible’ Creator Changes Mind on Homosexuality, Says He Would Officiate ‘Gay Wedding’ (http://christiannews.net/2017/07/12/false-message-bible-creator-changes-mind-on-homosexuality-says-he-would-officiate-gay-wedding/)



Agree or disagree, and is the measure of whats ok with God, now how spiritual someone seems?

I said
Just remember the Word. Satan is deceiving many. What ever was a sin when Jesus said it then is a sin now.

[Heb 13:8
8 Jesus Christ [is] the same yesterday, today, and forever.

[Mat 24:24
24 "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Truster
July 13th, 2017, 03:39 PM
I'm sure that explains a proportion of cases.

Others probably have scriptural interpretations that are just as convincing as the bigots' interpretations. You just have to jettison Saul of Tarsus, really, and believe that Jesus fulfilled the law in the name of love or some such other platitude.

That has the characters in your scene swapped around; they seek approval and in seeking it from false brethren and false teachers the confidence of the babes is destroyed, and young gay people take their own lives because of those religious zealots and busy bodies who would love to see the people who happen not to be like themselves be punished. Is your god really against humans loving other humans, from whichever part of the spectrum of sexuality to whichever other part of it? A god that hates love doesn't deserve worship.

A third category are those who join for the tea and chat, and fair enough.

Stuart

They destruct due to the shame they feel.

Truster
July 13th, 2017, 03:41 PM
To reject personal responsibility makes you a hyper-Calvinist.

Why aren't there any moderates on this forum just the worthless hypers?

I can speak peacefully to moderates but not you.

Your assessments and opinions have less worth than dust.

Ktoyou
July 13th, 2017, 04:03 PM
Beware of the homosexuals


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcU9rpbJzMc

jamie
July 13th, 2017, 05:57 PM
Scripture doesn't condemn homosexuals, scripture condemns homosexual acts since they are a perversion of God's creation of man and woman.

Angel4Truth
July 13th, 2017, 07:32 PM
Scripture doesn't condemn homosexuals, scripture condemns homosexual acts since they are a perversion of God's creation of man and woman.

yes, like an adulterers acts are condemned, as a perversion of what God created and intended.

I wonder if the op pastor would perform a wedding of a man marrying 2 women at once?

patrick jane
July 13th, 2017, 07:53 PM
I've never understood why gay people bother themselves with christianity.

StuartBecause if you enjoy another man's butt, there must be no God?

Epoisses
July 13th, 2017, 09:42 PM
Your assessments and opinions have less worth than dust.

We belong to different clans so you know how that goes. Have to toe the party line - blah, blah.

Truster
July 13th, 2017, 11:00 PM
We belong to different clans so you know how that goes. Have to toe the party line - blah, blah.

I belong to no party. I was purchased and belong to Messiah.

musterion
July 13th, 2017, 11:09 PM
Scripture doesn't condemn homosexuals, scripture condemns homosexual acts since they are a perversion of God's creation of man and woman.

It's not the acts that will be cast into the Lake.

kiwimacahau
July 14th, 2017, 04:16 AM
Frankly I think those of you here who hate homosexuals are far more likely to be judged than they are. So bring it on!

Stuu
July 14th, 2017, 06:26 AM
Because if you enjoy another man's butt, there must be no God?
I think the part about the butt is optional.

Stuart

Stuu
July 14th, 2017, 06:27 AM
They destruct due to the shame they feel.
And you feel no shame?

You should.

Stuart

Nick M
July 14th, 2017, 06:33 AM
I've never understood why gay people bother themselves with christianity.

Stuart

To try and bring shame to the Lord Jesus Christ. Are you really this dumb?

Nick M
July 14th, 2017, 06:37 AM
http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/secondary/ISIS-321988.jpg

http://media.breitbart.com/media/2015/03/isis-gay-execution-640x480.jpg

http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/ISIS-593512.jpg

http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/-561881.jpg

http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/78/590x/secondary/ISIS-gay-men-Syria-349182.jpg

Rusha, AB, AB, jgarden, Stuu...all are aligned with islam against Christianity.

Truster
July 14th, 2017, 08:14 AM
And you feel no shame?

You should.

Stuart


There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Messiah Yah Shua, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

No condemnation and no shame...He's given me a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair...amen

Truster
July 14th, 2017, 08:32 AM
Scripture doesn't condemn homosexuals, scripture condemns homosexual acts since they are a perversion of God's creation of man and woman.

You are as blind as a proverbial bat.

jamie
July 14th, 2017, 08:41 AM
It's not the acts that will be cast into the Lake.


Jesus said he doesn't judge them, why should we?

musterion
July 14th, 2017, 08:50 AM
Jesus said he doesn't judge them, why should we?

I wasn't judging. I just quoted what it says is going to happen, and why it will happen. If you actually believed the Bible you wouldn't have asked me that.

jamie
July 14th, 2017, 08:55 AM
I wasn't judging. I just quoted what it says is going to happen, and why it will happen. If you actually believed the Bible you wouldn't have asked me that.


That is not what scripture says. Stick to the script.

jamie
July 14th, 2017, 08:57 AM
You are as blind as a proverbial bat.


I see.

musterion
July 14th, 2017, 08:58 AM
That is not what scripture says. Stick to the script.

You're saying Rev 9:21 or Rev 21:8 are not true?

musterion
July 14th, 2017, 09:00 AM
How much did that bulldog cost you? I always wanted one.

jamie
July 14th, 2017, 09:02 AM
You're saying Rev 9:21 or Rev 21:8 are not true?


Nope, I am saying Revelation 20 is true.

jamie
July 14th, 2017, 09:04 AM
How much did that bulldog cost you? I always wanted one.


I actually have chihuahua terrier mix, a rescue dog.

He is the best dog I have ever seen.

musterion
July 14th, 2017, 09:08 AM
Nope, I am saying Revelation 20 is true.

Glad we agree.

Truster
July 14th, 2017, 09:18 AM
I see.



Yah Shua said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

Potter's Clay
July 14th, 2017, 11:05 AM
If a "Preacher" officiates a homosexual wedding, that's a dead give away that the "Preacher" is a false teacher. The Bible is very clear about defining a marriage between a man and a woman.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

Robert Pate
July 14th, 2017, 11:14 AM
It is the work of the Holy Spirit to make one a witness for Christ and his Gospel. Those that are practicing homosexuality do not make good witnesses for Christ and his Gospel.

beloved57
July 14th, 2017, 11:25 AM
It is the work of the Holy Spirit to make one a witness for Christ and his Gospel. Those that are practicing homosexuality do not make good witnesses for Christ and his Gospel.

Is it the Holy Spirit that makes you a witness for Christ saying that sinners He died for are still lost ?

Robert Pate
July 14th, 2017, 11:39 AM
Is it the Holy Spirit that makes you a witness for Christ saying that sinners He died for are still lost ?

Salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. Because you are spiritually blind it is not possible for you to believe that. Instead you would rather believe the words of a heretic.

beloved57
July 14th, 2017, 11:40 AM
Salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. Because you are spiritually blind it is not possible for you to believe that. Instead you would rather believe the words of a heretic.

The Holy Spirit doesnt inspire people to teach that sinners Christ died for are lost anyway.

Robert Pate
July 14th, 2017, 11:47 AM
The Holy Spirit doesnt inspire people to teach that sinners Christ died for are lost anyway.

Christ died for you and you are lost, because you have never called on Christ to save you.

"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Epoisses
July 14th, 2017, 11:50 AM
The Holy Spirit doesnt inspire people to teach that sinners Christ died for are lost anyway.

B57 is so hyper he can't take a position on anything else. He probably thinks homosexuality is OK like most Reformed do nowadays. The Reformed religion has become such a disgrace in modern times that any sane person would just jump ship!

beloved57
July 14th, 2017, 11:57 AM
Christ died for you and you are lost, because you have never called on Christ to save you.

"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

You cant forsake your Christ dishonoring false Gospel, teaching sinners He died for are lost anyways.

Epoisses
July 14th, 2017, 12:01 PM
You cant forsake your Christ dishonoring false Gospel, teaching sinners He died for are lost anyways.

You have the false gospel, with the shipwreck of faith you have!

Epoisses
July 14th, 2017, 12:07 PM
Homosexuality is a very hot button issue today for Christians. The bible condemns the act of homosexuality but it also condemns hatred towards homosexuals. The grace-filled believer will be in the happy place of condemning the sin of homosexuality but showing love towards homosexuals which is not what we see from Christians today.

deborah
July 14th, 2017, 12:37 PM
The box you have put God into is so tiny that you think He cannot deal with whom a person falls in loves with .


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

genuineoriginal
July 14th, 2017, 05:12 PM
Scripture doesn't condemn homosexuals, scripture condemns homosexual acts since they are a perversion of God's creation of man and woman.
The verse states that the men are condemned for committing homosexual acts.

Leviticus 20:13
13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
It is not the homosexual acts that are put to death, it is the men that committed the homosexual acts that are put to death.

genuineoriginal
July 14th, 2017, 05:16 PM
Frankly I think those of you here who hate homosexuals are far more likely to be judged than they are. So bring it on!
It is not hate to tell a homosexual that his acts are sinful. If he believes you, then he may repent and save his soul from hell.

It is hate to tell a homosexual that his acts are not sinful, because that is the same as telling a homosexual that he does not need to repent of his sins, and his unrepentance will lead him to damnation.

genuineoriginal
July 14th, 2017, 05:25 PM
Homosexuality is a very hot button issue today for Christians. The bible condemns the act of homosexuality but it also condemns hatred towards homosexuals. The grace-filled believer will be in the happy place of condemning the sin of homosexuality but showing love towards homosexuals which is not what we see from Christians today.
The hatred towards homosexuals that the Bible condemns is refusing to tell a homosexual that homosexuality is a sin.

Leviticus 19:17-18
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord.

genuineoriginal
July 14th, 2017, 05:27 PM
The box you have put God into is so tiny that you think He cannot deal with whom a person falls in loves with .
What you call "falls in love" is merely lust.
God expects people to be mature enough to control their lusts.

jamie
July 14th, 2017, 05:46 PM
It is not the homosexual acts that are put to death, it is the men that committed the homosexual acts that are put to death.


The penalty for sin is death regardless of the type of sin.

Each person is responsible for what they say and do.

Stuu
July 14th, 2017, 06:16 PM
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Messiah Yah Shua, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

No condemnation and no shame...He's given me a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair...amen
So it's OK for people in the christian club to pass nasty judgement on young gay people and drive them to suicide, as long as the others in the club are pleased.

Not sure what kind of god requires that of its followers.

See what your hobby has done to your humanity? There are people who can help with that kind of destructive addiction.

Stuart

Stuu
July 14th, 2017, 06:18 PM
To try and bring shame to the Lord Jesus Christ. Are you really this dumb?
I'm with the Jesus part. Was probably a nice chap. Why should I doubt it? The christ bit is offensive. And, it looks to me like scripture intends it that way, given the politics of the time.

Stuart

musterion
July 14th, 2017, 07:30 PM
The christ bit is offensive.

You're betting that, on the off chance He turns out to really be Christ, you'll be able to explain yourself to Him, tell Him how He might have made all that Christ stuff clearer to people like you, and appeal to His being "a nice chap" because, after all, you think you're a pretty nice chap yourself, as He's bound to agree. You're betting that, worst case scenario, He's sure to understand why you had contempt for Him and that He will let you off with a wink. Ain't that right, Stoo.

Truster
July 14th, 2017, 09:52 PM
So it's OK for people in the christian club to pass nasty judgement on young gay people and drive them to suicide, as long as the others in the club are pleased.

Not sure what kind of god requires that of its followers.

See what your hobby has done to your humanity? There are people who can help with that kind of destructive addiction.

Stuart

The judgement has passed to the homosexuals and those that approve of their vile acts.

Stuu
July 14th, 2017, 10:31 PM
The judgement has passed to the homosexuals and those that approve of their vile acts.
Which is why I asked the original question. Why would gay people, or actually anyone have any time for such a judge? It's obviously not justice.

Stuart

Truster
July 14th, 2017, 10:34 PM
Which is why I asked the original question. Why would gay people, or actually anyone have any time for such a judge? It's obviously not justice.

Stuart

The judgement is the homosexual lusts and acts. Homosexuality is a judgement upon society because of irreverence and injustice.

Stuu
July 14th, 2017, 10:36 PM
You're betting that, on the off chance He turns out to really be Christ, you'll be able to explain yourself to Him, tell Him how He might have made all that Christ stuff clearer to people like you, and appeal to His being "a nice chap" because, after all, you think you're a pretty nice chap yourself, as He's bound to agree. You're betting that, worst case scenario, He's sure to understand why you had contempt for Him and that He will let you off with a wink. Ain't that right, Stoo.
If Jesus was to somehow come back to life and defend calling himself christ, then I would ask for an apology, on behalf of humanity. As it is, I think the historical Jesus is the one who deserves an apology from the gospel writers, who were so keen to use him as a political stooge. Don't forget it is the baby Jesus who brought us eternal punishment in burning sulfur. Now, either that represents such a low view of our species by him that it is contemptible, or else it is a monstrous lie that has been attributed to that decent guy.

Stuart (as it is spelled)

Truster
July 14th, 2017, 10:46 PM
If Jesus was to somehow come back to life and defend calling himself christ, then I would ask for an apology, on behalf of humanity. As it is, I think the historical Jesus is the one who deserves an apology from the gospel writers, who were so keen to use him as a political stooge. Don't forget it is the baby Jesus who brought us eternal punishment in burning sulfur. Now, either that represents such a low view of our species by him that it is contemptible, or else it is a monstrous lie that has been attributed to that decent guy.

Stuart (as it is spelled)

Your irreverence is the cause of homosexuality.

Stuu
July 14th, 2017, 10:57 PM
Your irreverence is the cause of homosexuality.
While I am flattered, I fear the actual cause of homosexuality is natural selection, given that every species ever observed to reproduce by copulation has shown examples of gay sexual relationships. You might not like the idea but you can't claim it's not natural for your god's creatures to indulge in same-sex activities.

If you have a stern stomach then read about the necrophiliac homosexual duck (https://www.theguardian.com/education/2005/mar/08/highereducation.research).

Stuart

The Berean
July 14th, 2017, 11:07 PM
If Jesus was to somehow come back to life and defend calling himself christ, then I would ask for an apology, on behalf of humanity. As it is, I think the historical Jesus is the one who deserves an apology from the gospel writers, who were so keen to use him as a political stooge. Don't forget it is the baby Jesus who brought us eternal punishment in burning sulfur. Now, either that represents such a low view of our species by him that it is contemptible, or else it is a monstrous lie that has been attributed to that decent guy.

Stuart (as it is spelled)
Your complete ignorance of Biblical history is duly noted. This idea that the Gospel writers changed the history of Jesus Christ for some political goal is ridiculous. The Gospel writers were writing first hand accounts. The early Christians mostly came from the poor, had no wealth, and no political influence. Jesus Christ came to preach the Gospel of His Kingdom that has nothing to do with the dark world system of that time. But let me ask you this. What is so offensive about Christ? He offers YOU eternal salvation and eternal relationship with Him, the creator of the entire universe. That is really offensive to you?

Stuu
July 15th, 2017, 01:12 AM
Thank you for your reply.

Your complete ignorance of Biblical history is duly noted.
I am trying, as much as I can, to go on actual history. Although I'm not sure if you are denying that baby christ brought us hell.


This idea that the Gospel writers changed the history of Jesus Christ for some political goal is ridiculous.
They got the dates for Herod wrong, and made up the story of the census, just for starters.


The Gospel writers were writing first hand accounts.
They must have lived to some pretty spectacular ages then, whoever they were.


The early Christians mostly came from the poor, had no wealth, and no political influence. Jesus Christ came to preach the Gospel of His Kingdom that has nothing to do with the dark world system of that time.
You mean the dispossessed of occupied ancient Judea? It must have been as much of a political hotbed then as it is today. Different politics, same hotheads.


But let me ask you this. What is so offensive about Christ? He offers YOU eternal salvation and eternal relationship with Him, the creator of the entire universe. That is really offensive to you?
Compulsory love on pain of death by burning in sulfur, with only one way to being a decent person. And I thought Americans were generally opposed to the idea of communistic totalitarian dictatorship.

Stuart

Truster
July 15th, 2017, 02:32 AM
While I am flattered, I fear the actual cause of homosexuality is natural selection, given that every species ever observed to reproduce by copulation has shown examples of gay sexual relationships. You might not like the idea but you can't claim it's not natural for your god's creatures to indulge in same-sex activities.

If you have a stern stomach then read about the necrophiliac homosexual duck (https://www.theguardian.com/education/2005/mar/08/highereducation.research).

Stuart

As an unrepentant sinner without saving grace you are disposed to believe any lie that you are presented with. The energised delusion that is sent to those that received not the love of the truth that they might be saved, is all you have.

Truster
July 15th, 2017, 02:36 AM
To reject personal responsibility makes you a hyper-Calvinist.

Why aren't there any moderates on this forum just the worthless hypers?

I can speak peacefully to moderates but not you.


Hyper-Calvinists hate me because they insist I am too extreme.

deborah
July 15th, 2017, 02:56 AM
What you call "falls in love" is merely lust.
God expects people to be mature enough to control their lusts.

You trying to say Adam never lusted after eve ?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Truster
July 15th, 2017, 03:06 AM
You trying to say Adam never lusted after eve ?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

The were naked and not ashamed. They had a desire that was true and not blemished by sin.

deborah
July 15th, 2017, 03:07 AM
So who gets to decide what's normal unashamed "desire" and sinful lust ?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

Stuu
July 15th, 2017, 03:39 AM
As an unrepentant sinner without saving grace you are disposed to believe any lie that you are presented with. The energised delusion that is sent to those that received not the love of the truth that they might be saved, is all you have.
So your god is lying to me to stop me from seeing the truth, as is set out in 2 Thessalonians and elsewhere.

Actually I am not a sinner because I don't belong to the christian club. Or any of the Abrahamic clubs. You may as well call me messiah as sinner, because neither word has any importance to anyone outside your in-group.

Stuart

Truster
July 15th, 2017, 03:52 AM
So your god is lying to me to stop me from seeing the truth, as is set out in 2 Thessalonians and elsewhere.

Actually I am not a sinner because I don't belong to the christian club. Or any of the Abrahamic clubs. You may as well call me messiah as sinner, because neither word has any importance to anyone outside your in-group.

Stuart

You are a sinner by nature. Every intent and thought you have is sinful. Every word you speak or write is sinful. Every deed you complete is drenched in sin. If you were born in the US then you are American. You were conceived and born in sin, therefore, you are a sinner.

Do you deny that you are American?

deborah
July 15th, 2017, 04:07 AM
People give labels . I was born in this place that people have decided to call England , they have put borders around it and made its own rules . So therefore people would label me as English . There are a lot of labels that we give each other , white , black , gay , saint , sinner . God doesn't see labels he sees us as individuals. You might be to narrow minded to k ow how to treat other brothers and sisters but God most certainly is not .


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

patrick jane
July 15th, 2017, 04:08 AM
You are a sinner by nature. Every intent and thought you have is sinful. Every word you speak or write is sinful. Every deed you complete is drenched in sin. If you were born in the US then you are American. You were conceived and born in sin, therefore, you are a sinner.

Do you deny that you are American?You are a sinner by nature. Every intent and thought you have is sinful. Every word you speak or write is sinful. Every deed you complete is drenched in sin. Do you deny that you are British?

Truster
July 15th, 2017, 04:42 AM
You are a sinner by nature. Every intent and thought you have is sinful. Every word you speak or write is sinful. Every deed you complete is drenched in sin. Do you deny that you are British?

By grace, I am a repentant sinner. By physical birth I am Cymro.

PS why do you follow me around like a stray dog...rhetorical.

Stuu
July 15th, 2017, 04:49 AM
You are a sinner by nature. Every intent and thought you have is sinful. Every word you speak or write is sinful. Every deed you complete is drenched in sin. If you were born in the US then you are American. You were conceived and born in sin, therefore, you are a sinner.
I see. Your christian club has a label for me. But that's your problem, not mine.


Do you deny that you are American?
As it happens, I am not American. We share a Queen.

Stuart

patrick jane
July 15th, 2017, 04:50 AM
By grace, I am a repentant sinner. By physical birth I am Cymro.

PS why do you follow me around like a stray dog...rhetorical.Because you always have food for me. No, because I look at recent posts and you always have some. Your over the top judgement and condemnation of others compels me to respond

Truster
July 15th, 2017, 05:00 AM
Because you always have food for me. No, because I look at recent posts and you always have some. Your over the top judgement and condemnation of others compels me to respond

If that were the case you would respond rationally instead of with blatant stupidity.

Truster
July 15th, 2017, 05:02 AM
I see. Your christian club has a label for me. But that's your problem, not mine.


As it happens, I am not American. We share a Queen.

Stuart

For the record I am not a "christian".

Were you ever on the BBC Christianity forum before it was closed down?

Stuu
July 15th, 2017, 05:07 AM
For the record I am not a "christian".
In that case I apologise for the slight.


Were you ever on the BBC Christianity forum before it was closed down?
Can't say I had that pleasure. I can imagine the arguments about Thought for the Day, though.

Stuart

Stuu
July 15th, 2017, 05:33 AM
For the record I am not a "christian".
Sacred Name Movement?

Stuart

Truster
July 15th, 2017, 05:48 AM
Sacred Name Movement?

Stuart

Read my signature.

Truster
July 15th, 2017, 05:49 AM
In that case I apologise for the slight.


Can't say I had that pleasure. I can imagine the arguments about Thought for the Day, though.

Stuart

I was continually being given short "time off" and then they banned me for life. Then the site was closed down.

Nick M
July 15th, 2017, 06:18 AM
I'm with the Jesus part. Was probably a nice chap.

21 Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”

23 But He answered her not a word.

And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”

24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”

26 But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”

27 And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”

28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

I'm wondering if you think he is being a nice chap here. And what is your take on what is happening and why?

jamie
July 15th, 2017, 08:04 AM
For the record I am not a "christian".


Well said.

shopkinslpskids
July 15th, 2017, 08:42 AM
False ‘Message Bible’ Creator Changes Mind on Homosexuality, Says He Would Officiate ‘Gay Wedding’ (http://christiannews.net/2017/07/12/false-message-bible-creator-changes-mind-on-homosexuality-says-he-would-officiate-gay-wedding/)



Agree or disagree, and is the measure of whats ok with God, now how spiritual someone seems?Apostasy

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Zeke
July 15th, 2017, 08:51 AM
False ‘Message Bible’ Creator Changes Mind on Homosexuality, Says He Would Officiate ‘Gay Wedding’ (http://christiannews.net/2017/07/12/false-message-bible-creator-changes-mind-on-homosexuality-says-he-would-officiate-gay-wedding/)



Agree or disagree, and is the measure of whats ok with God, now how spiritual someone seems?

Ever consider the effects of chemicals introduced into the body might be a factor in behavior? All these gender confused people are being altared just like a drinker will do things they normally wouldnt, fits with Romans seven where it states we do things against are inner will through infliences that take control over our will not to. We live in the hegelian dialectic problem, reaction, solution hamster wheel.

Truster
July 15th, 2017, 09:22 AM
Well said.

You are bound by law and the labels prepared by denominations. I am bound to Messiah and walk in Spirit.

Stuu
July 15th, 2017, 10:28 PM
21 Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”

23 But He answered her not a word.

And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”

24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”

26 But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”

27 And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”

28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

I'm wondering if you think he is being a nice chap here. And what is your take on what is happening and why?
Indeed. But I don't think that mythology is relevant to the historical Jesus. As I wrote, this is all about ancient Jews trying to make it seem like their prophecies had been fulfilled, for political reasons. That's why the gospel writers owe the real Jesus an apology, for putting such nasty words in his mouth.

It's pretty obvious that they had a real person to model the stories on, for example the reason given for being born in Bethlehem is bogus: they incorrectly aligned the Census of Quirinius with the reign of Herod, then invented a rule about returning to the lands of their ancestors. If Jesus was fictional there would have been no need for all that historical fiction.

So, what you have posted above is historical fiction, and indeed most of the NT comes into that category of literature. There are fictional characters and dramas placed in the context of real history. For it to be anything more than that it would have to involve magic. I guess you believe it is magical, or supernatural, or inspired, or something else that is somehow beyond criticism.

Stuart

Stuu
July 15th, 2017, 10:34 PM
I was continually being given short "time off" and then they banned me for life. Then the site was closed down.
I'd be interested to know from ToL contributors their experience of posting on 'atheist' forums, to find out which worldview is more likely to 'hand out bans'. I would have thought non-believers might be more tolerant of the expression of a wide range of views, but I suppose not necessarily.

Stuart

Stuu
July 15th, 2017, 10:36 PM
Read my signature.
Yes, it says Messianist. I guess that's not incompatible with the 'Name' people. Do you treat Jesus as a prophet, from an ancient Hebrew point of view? I've found it difficult to get to the bottom of it!

Stuart

Truster
July 15th, 2017, 11:06 PM
Yes, it says Messianist. I guess that's not incompatible with the 'Name' people. Do you treat Jesus as a prophet, from an ancient Hebrew point of view? I've found it difficult to get to the bottom of it!

Stuart

I was atheist until 10:30am on July 17th 1999. I was converted at that moment. I didn't ask to be saved and I didn't want to be saved, but I was, I am and I will be saved in the last day.

Truster
July 15th, 2017, 11:11 PM
I'd be interested to know from ToL contributors their experience of posting on 'atheist' forums, to find out which worldview is more likely to 'hand out bans'. I would have thought non-believers might be more tolerant of the expression of a wide range of views, but I suppose not necessarily.

Stuart

I spent some time on US atheist forums and was amazed to discover that many of the members had been brought up in Christian homes, been to Bible Colleges and even worked as pastors.
The fact that they had been brought up in all the outward forms of religion without the inner work was obvious to me, but obviously not to them.

patrick jane
July 15th, 2017, 11:27 PM
I was atheist until 10:30am on July 17th 1999. I was converted at that moment. I didn't ask to be saved and I didn't want to be saved, but I was, I am and I will be saved in the last day.You never sought God before that moment?

Truster
July 15th, 2017, 11:34 PM
You never sought God before that moment?

"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after Elohim".

Any form of religion is without understanding and is an outer work that satisfies mankind. Salvation bestows understanding, life and a means of communication between the regenerate sinner and his Saviour.

Stuu
July 16th, 2017, 01:26 AM
I spent some time on US atheist forums and was amazed to discover that many of the members had been brought up in Christian homes, been to Bible Colleges and even worked as pastors.
The fact that they had been brought up in all the outward forms of religion without the inner work was obvious to me, but obviously not to them.
That's your point of difference with them, and I guess with me, that you believe the 'inner work' is anything more than the inventive imagination of the human brain, known as it is for it susceptibility to seeing things that aren't really there, and a poor native understanding of probability. They will have told you that on those forums no doubt.

Stuart

Stuu
July 16th, 2017, 01:27 AM
I was atheist until 10:30am on July 17th 1999. I was converted at that moment. I didn't ask to be saved and I didn't want to be saved, but I was, I am and I will be saved in the last day.
And what is Jesus to you, exactly?

Stuart

Stuu
July 16th, 2017, 01:42 AM
From Abraham to Isaac, to David, to the Apostles- who all explicitly died for Christ

What you have to say here is frankly nonsense, Stuu. You don't have much in the way of your argument.
Before you claim victory, perhaps you could give a counter-argument or two. People dying for a cause doesn't really constitute an argument for the reality of the cause.

Stuart

Stuu
July 16th, 2017, 02:56 AM
Abraham led his people by his own faith in God, who followed Isaac all the way to David- they won every single war they fought because God willed it. From David came Solomon, and eventually Christ- who fulfilled every single prophesy of him., including persecuted saints like Isaiah who foretold him- and then, all of Christ's apostles gave their lives.

Christianity takes Rome..

This is not a testimony of God through a few decades, but several thousand years. As I stated, you have a lot more to contend with then you think you do, you can't just come up to Christianity and suggest it is false.

Not here :nono:
Not sure what you are trying to say. Do you think Abraham is an historical person whose actions have been documented? Afraid not. Same goes for any Jewish patriarch such as Isaac. David could have been a real person, but who was he actually? We don't know. Same with Solomon. If they were leaders in the places and times stated in the Jewish bible, you can't call them much more than tribal leaders because there weren't large numbers of people living in and around Jerusalem in the 9th or 10th Centuries BCE. So the biblical account just isn't literally true. It's more like historical fiction.

It's difficult enough to establish that Jesus was a real historical person. There is some circumstantial evidence for that.

I recommend reading as much as you can about what historians think about the historical claims of christianity. Without answers to their various conclusions I don't think you can make any truth claims about your beliefs. Not here or anywhere if we are being honest.

Stuart

Truster
July 16th, 2017, 03:41 AM
That's your point of difference with them, and I guess with me, that you believe the 'inner work' is anything more than the inventive imagination of the human brain, known as it is for it susceptibility to seeing things that aren't really there, and a poor native understanding of probability. They will have told you that on those forums no doubt.

Stuart

My point of reference with atheism is the fact I was and atheist and now I am not. I have been where yopu are and you couldn't possibly imagine what it is like where I am.

Truster
July 16th, 2017, 03:43 AM
And what is Jesus to you, exactly?

Stuart

Yah Shua Messiah is my Saviour, my Shepherd, my King, my brother and my life.

Charity
July 16th, 2017, 03:47 AM
hi stuu, long time no sea.. :) Abraham the man that migrated from his birth country to JerUesluem...HE SAT DOWN IN ISRAEL AND WATCHED A ASTROID CROSS THE SKY AT NIGHT, THERE HE MADE A COVENANT, WITH HIS GODAND HIS CHILDREN THAT HAD NOT BEEN BORN, THAT THEY WOULD OWN THE LAND HE WAS SITTING ON RIGHT AT THAT MOMENT.. THE DNA ARMY THAT WOULD RISE UP AND TAKE THE THRONE OF ISREAL. so Abraham sent home to araba.. his birth land for a wife for his son isacc.. who then had sons.. who were then sent back to the grandfathers birth land for wives.. Jacob stayed this mothers brothers house.. were we wanted to marry his cousin ( some how god had not learned that interbreeding was dangerous to producing strong healthy vessels.. So Jacob saw his second eldest cousin an wanted her.. his uncle laban said..you spoilt brat... you don't even know our laws, the eldest must marry first,your g grand father ran away two generations ago.. yet you keep sending home for wives and excepting yourselves from the birth land laws... in the end the children of abraham were exiled to Egypt, till the DNA som Mose's was born.. and he said.. come onslaves.. let us go back and claim the promise of father Abraham... Israel is ours.. above those who have paid tax and built the city for their DNA.. our god said it is ours.. so we will compass it 40 years until we are enough to conquer and take it over..even if we came form far off arab nation.. we can still arrive under banner, convincing of the new Israelites...

Stuu
July 16th, 2017, 05:21 AM
My point of reference with atheism is the fact I was and atheist and now I am not. I have been where yopu are and you couldn't possibly imagine what it is like where I am.
Why can't I possibly imagine what it is like where you are?

Stuart

Stuu
July 16th, 2017, 05:22 AM
Yah Shua Messiah is my Saviour, my Shepherd, my King, my brother and my life.
Do you view Yah Shua as a god, or a son of a god?

Stuart

Truster
July 16th, 2017, 05:23 AM
Do you view Yah Shua as a god, or a son of a god?

Stuart

Why do you ask.

Stuu
July 16th, 2017, 05:25 AM
hi stuu, long time no sea.. :) Abraham the man that migrated from his birth country to JerUesluem...HE SAT DOWN IN ISRAEL AND WATCHED A ASTROID CROSS THE SKY AT NIGHT, THERE HE MADE A COVENANT, WITH HIS GODAND HIS CHILDREN THAT HAD NOT BEEN BORN, THAT THEY WOULD OWN THE LAND HE WAS SITTING ON RIGHT AT THAT MOMENT.. THE DNA ARMY THAT WOULD RISE UP AND TAKE THE THRONE OF ISREAL. so Abraham sent home to araba.. his birth land for a wife for his son isacc.. who then had sons.. who were then sent back to the grandfathers birth land for wives.. Jacob stayed this mothers brothers house.. were we wanted to marry his cousin ( some how god had not learned that interbreeding was dangerous to producing strong healthy vessels.. So Jacob saw his second eldest cousin an wanted her.. his uncle laban said..you spoilt brat... you don't even know our laws, the eldest must marry first,your g grand father ran away two generations ago.. yet you keep sending home for wives and excepting yourselves from the birth land laws... in the end the children of abraham were exiled to Egypt, till the DNA som Mose's was born.. and he said.. come onslaves.. let us go back and claim the promise of father Abraham... Israel is ours.. above those who have paid tax and built the city for their DNA.. our god said it is ours.. so we will compass it 40 years until we are enough to conquer and take it over..even if we came form far off arab nation.. we can still arrive under banner, convincing of the new Israelites...
Hi Charity

That's what the words say...but the Jewish archeologists, the ones with the most to gain by it being true, say actually it never happened.

Stuart

Truster
July 16th, 2017, 05:25 AM
Why can't I possibly imagine what it is like where you are?

Stuart

You are atheist.

Stuu
July 16th, 2017, 05:27 AM
Why do you ask.
I want to understand your beliefs properly. The last thing I would want is to make a strawman, which unfortunately I have already done in your case.

Stuart

Stuu
July 16th, 2017, 05:32 AM
You are atheist.
Sorry, not good enough. Of all the ways of viewing the world, you are more likely to have an atheist put themselves in your shoes than anyone else. You should remember that from your own experience, right? Were you an atheist? I don't have to agree with you or accept the output of your brain to have a comprehension of what it is like to believe the way you do.

I am sure I can understand the feeling of horror that could be experienced by a christian who 'knows' that this atheist he is dealing with is going to be punished eternally, and this is one chance to save him from that fate if only he will accept the story in scripture. We do share a common humanity, after all. I don't think there are any special emotions that are only the domain of religious converts. After all, you were able to take on that range of feelings after being what you call atheist, right? And there are many who were devout who now call themselves non-believers, and there is no special change of basic human capacity for experience in either direction, just a change of actual sense of experience. Otherwise evangelism would be a complete waste of time and the scriptures would be hypocritical.

Stuart

Truster
July 16th, 2017, 05:48 AM
Sorry, not good enough. Of all the ways of viewing the world, you are more likely to have an atheist put themselves in your shoes than anyone else. You should remember that from your own experience, right? Were you an atheist? I don't have to agree with you or accept the output of your brain to have a comprehension of what it is like to believe the way you do.

I am sure I can understand the feeling of horror that could be experienced by a christian who 'knows' that this atheist he is dealing with is going to be punished eternally, and this is one chance to save him from that fate if only he will accept the story in scripture. We do share a common humanity, after all. I don't think there are any special emotions that are only the domain of religious converts. After all, you were able to take on that range of feelings after being what you call atheist, right? And there are many who were devout who now call themselves non-believers, and there is no special change of basic human capacity for experience in either direction, just a change of actual sense of experience. Otherwise evangelism would be a complete waste of time and the scriptures would be hypocritical.

Stuart

You obviously don't understand the true meaning of the word atheist.

Truster
July 16th, 2017, 05:49 AM
I want to understand your beliefs properly. The last thing I would want is to make a strawman, which unfortunately I have already done in your case.

Stuart

I don't have "beliefs". I have access to and complete trust in absolute truth.

Stuu
July 16th, 2017, 05:53 AM
I don't have "beliefs". I have access to and complete trust in absolute truth.
Is light characterised best by a particle model or a wave model?

Stuart

Stuu
July 16th, 2017, 05:56 AM
You obviously don't understand the true meaning of the word atheist.
Sounds like the No True Scotsman fallacy; an irony for one living in Southern Wales.

Stuart

Truster
July 16th, 2017, 06:05 AM
Sounds like the No True Scotsman fallacy; an irony for one living in Southern Wales.

Stuart

I don't live in Southern Wales. Truth is only fallacy to those that don't possess truth.

Truster
July 16th, 2017, 06:08 AM
Is light characterised best by a particle model or a wave model?

Stuart

Is that just visible light you enquire of?

Elohim is Light.

Stuu
July 16th, 2017, 06:48 AM
Is that just visible light you enquire of?

Elohim is Light.
In the end your beliefs are your business, but since you boasted about them I asked you for some practically useful information. Might it be that your access to absolute truth is only access to a personal absolute truth that really isn't much practical good? Really, is this kind of truth access actually a bit solipsistic?

Stuart

Stuu
July 16th, 2017, 06:50 AM
I don't live in Southern Wales. Truth is only fallacy to those that don't possess truth.
There is a Carmarthenshire that is not in south-west Wales?

It does begin to look like Messianism consists of a tissue of platitudes. Would that be a fair summary of your replies to me so far?

Stuart

Truster
July 16th, 2017, 06:52 AM
In the end your beliefs are your business, but since you boasted about them I asked you for some practically useful information. Might it be that your access to absolute truth is only access to a personal absolute truth that really isn't much practical good? Really, is this kind of truth access actually a bit solipsistic?

Stuart

My life is Messiah centered, but I have recollection of being self-centered prior to my conversion.

Truster
July 16th, 2017, 06:53 AM
There is a Carmarthenshire that is not in south-west Wales?

It does begin to look like Messianism consists of a tissue of platitudes. Would that be a fair summary of your replies to me so far?

Stuart

You didn't say South West Wales, you said Southern Wales. Carmarthenshire is one of three Counties that make up West Wales.

Charity
July 16th, 2017, 02:45 PM
I understand that.. Archeologists are proving many things..even that a list of spanish words from the iberian celtic language was used by the roman empire to create their latin language. hijacked from the occupying tribe they conquered and wanted to retrain..they have now uncovered written evidence that, that very early kingdom of Israel. HARPS& PIPE's flourished with Scottish and irish symbols... evil alliance's took place to wipe out the memory of that western kingdom took place for over 3000 years BC.. I believe the bible is made up of looted law books, which the vatican assembled 3 to 4 different gods together from empires they over threw, object> new world> to create one God UNDER ONE holy catholic church. dates even beginning over> very clever Gay men.. even convinced their own Nation that this one god wanted to build a wall to separate a few womanless men into a country within a country holding all the looted & treasures, gold belonging to the irish harps and pipes kingdom..they carried home after the people rose up against them concerning taxation... as quoted.. who gets a free silver coin out of a fishes mouth to pay their tax for free.. their god is no more than a political tax adventure thats all over walked all over earth on the instructions of womanless men...TODAY VATICAN CITY IS UP THERE.. USING THE OLD SYSTEM THAT WORKED WELL FOR THEM.. which was CULTURE AND nATION SWAPS, and alliances introducing brutal islamic men to destroy peace and create fear..they also dishonor woman.. their god moses is enthroned in every nation that fall. who is the Abrahams son as written above..

Stuu
July 16th, 2017, 03:28 PM
My life is Messiah centered, but I have recollection of being self-centered prior to my conversion.
The impression I get, especially reading your Signs of Life thread, is that you paint others as cartoon characters with various failings, including what you consider to be your former self, while portraying your own current worldview as the only real game in town. That may as well be called solipsism.

Stuart

Stuu
July 16th, 2017, 03:33 PM
You didn't say South West Wales, you said Southern Wales. Carmarthenshire is one of three Counties that make up West Wales.
I refer you to the Holy Wikipedia, another source of absolute truth:

South Wales

...The region is loosely defined, but it is generally considered to include the historic counties of Glamorgan and Monmouthshire, sometimes extending westwards to include Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire. In the western extent, from Swansea westwards, local people would probably recognise that they lived in both south Wales and west Wales — there is considerable overlap in these somewhat artificial boundaries.
Can I take it you aren't one of the people who recognise you live in south Wales and west Wales?

Stuart

Truster
July 16th, 2017, 04:08 PM
I refer you to the Holy Wikipedia, another source of absolute truth:

South Wales

...The region is loosely defined, but it is generally considered to include the historic counties of Glamorgan and Monmouthshire, sometimes extending westwards to include Carmarthenshire and Pembrokeshire. In the western extent, from Swansea westwards, local people would probably recognise that they lived in both south Wales and west Wales — there is considerable overlap in these somewhat artificial boundaries.
Can I take it you aren't one of the people who recognise you live in south Wales and west Wales?

Stuart

I live in West Wales dimwit.

Truster
July 16th, 2017, 04:09 PM
The impression I get, especially reading your Signs of Life thread, is that you paint others as cartoon characters with various failings, including what you consider to be your former self, while portraying your own current worldview as the only real game in town. That may as well be called solipsism.

Stuart

As a sinner without saving grace you are disposed to believe any lie that you are presented with.

Stuu
July 16th, 2017, 04:37 PM
I live in West Wales dimwit.
So not south-west Wales, as you previously claimed?

Stuart

Stuu
July 16th, 2017, 04:38 PM
As a sinner without saving grace you are disposed to believe any lie that you are presented with.
Thank you for demonstrating my point so well.

Stuart

Epoisses
July 16th, 2017, 04:38 PM
Truster is a beached and bloated whale full of hot gas!

Nihilo
July 16th, 2017, 06:04 PM
Ever consider the effects of chemicals introduced into the body might be a factor in behavior? All these gender confused people are being altared just like a drinker will do things they normally wouldnt, fits with Romans seven where it states we do things against are inner will through infliences that take control over our will not to. We live in the hegelian dialectic problem, reaction, solution hamster wheel.It doesn't all of a sudden make something inherently immoral into a good thing.

Nihilo
July 16th, 2017, 06:05 PM
If Jesus was to somehow come back to lifeI've got "Good News" for you. Mt28:6KJV Mk16:6KJV Lk24:6KJV

Nihilo
July 16th, 2017, 06:06 PM
Hyper-Calvinists hate me because they insist I am too extreme.I was and still am way more extreme than you are. Would you like to learn how to be more extreme?

Nihilo
July 16th, 2017, 06:07 PM
So who gets to decide what's normal unashamed "desire" and sinful lust ? Let me guess. "Deborah from the Internet?" :Plain:

Nihilo
July 16th, 2017, 06:08 PM
I am not a sinnerDo you believe in right and wrong, and good and evil?

You're wrong and evil, either way. That's not quote-unquote Christian, that's just a fact.

Nihilo
July 16th, 2017, 06:09 PM
False ‘Message Bible’ Creator Changes Mind on Homosexuality, Says He Would Officiate ‘Gay Wedding’ (http://christiannews.net/2017/07/12/false-message-bible-creator-changes-mind-on-homosexuality-says-he-would-officiate-gay-wedding/)



Agree or disagree, and is the measure of whats ok with God, now how spiritual someone seems?Don't listen to Protestant teachers.

Stuu
July 16th, 2017, 09:01 PM
Do you believe in right and wrong, and good and evil?

You're wrong and evil, either way. That's not quote-unquote Christian, that's just a fact.
The word is sinner, though. That specifically refers to actions that are defined by the Abrahamic beliefs. If you are not a member of any of the Abrahamic religious clubs then the word really doesn't apply.

If you want to discuss right and wrong, perhaps we talk about all the acts that are not wrong but are still called 'sins' by god believers.

Stuart

Stuu
July 16th, 2017, 09:05 PM
I've got "Good News" for you. Mt28:6KJV Mk16:6KJV Lk24:6KJV
Which of those contradictory accounts should I believe?

Stuart

Nihilo
July 16th, 2017, 09:57 PM
The word is sinner, though. That specifically refers to actions that are defined by the Abrahamic beliefs. If you are not a member of any of the Abrahamic religious clubs then the word really doesn't apply.

If you want to discuss right and wrong, perhaps we talk about all the acts that are not wrong but are still called 'sins' by god believers.

StuartSure. I can tell you exactly what the Church teaches is right and wrong, and you won't be able to show me anything proving even the nonfictional existence of anything resembling right and wrong. So that will be great. Why don't you start though, since I'll only need a second or two to give you the sources and references, and you're going to need quite a bit longer. We'll wait though, all right?

Nihilo
July 16th, 2017, 09:58 PM
Which of those contradictory accounts should I believe?

StuartHe is risen. :Plain:

Truster
July 16th, 2017, 10:17 PM
So not south-west Wales, as you previously claimed?

Stuart

I didn't claim South West Wales. Why would I do that?

Stuu
July 16th, 2017, 11:21 PM
Sure. I can tell you exactly what the Church teaches is right and wrong, and you won't be able to show me anything proving even the nonfictional existence of anything resembling right and wrong.
Sorry, could you please rephrase that? I'm getting a bit caught up in all the double negatives.

Stuart

Stuu
July 16th, 2017, 11:25 PM
He is risen. :Plain:
And how does that constitute 'good news' for me?

Stuart

Nihilo
July 16th, 2017, 11:31 PM
He is risen. :Plain:

And how does that constitute 'good news' for me?

Stuart:Plain:

Stuu
July 16th, 2017, 11:33 PM
:Plain:
:Plain:

Stuart

Nihilo
July 16th, 2017, 11:39 PM
:Plain:

StuartI win.

'Know why?

'Cause He is risen.

And you've got . . . nothin.'

Stuu
July 16th, 2017, 11:48 PM
I win.

'Know why?

'Cause He is risen.

And you've got . . . nothin.'
So you didn't have good news for me then.

Actually, what do you have? A promise?

Stuart

Nihilo
July 17th, 2017, 12:00 AM
So you didn't have good news for me then.

Actually, what do you have? A promise?

StuartNo, my answer to your silly retort that He is risen is not Good News, was :Plain:

What do I have? A "promise?"

He is risen. :Plain:

Stuu
July 17th, 2017, 02:15 AM
No, my answer to your silly retort that He is risen is not Good News, was :Plain:

What do I have? A "promise?"

He is risen. :Plain:
You have a platitude then.

Stuart

Nick M
July 17th, 2017, 06:32 AM
That's why the gospel writers owe the real Jesus an apology, for putting such nasty words in his mouth.
Stuart

If there was historical fiction being written, to portray him in a good light and to control people, these "nasty words" would have been omitted. Along with many other things.

Like deleting 33,000 emails. Get rid of the evidence. But the gospel writers did not get rid of things.

musterion
July 17th, 2017, 08:48 AM
If there was historical fiction being written, to portray him in a good light and to control people, these "nasty words" would have been omitted. Along with many other things.

Yep. They would have written NOTHING for which anyone could possibly dislike the guy, if they were making it all up.

Nihilo
July 17th, 2017, 10:38 AM
You have a platitude then.

StuartCheck your dictionary.

He is risen. :Plain:

Nihilo
July 17th, 2017, 10:46 AM
Yep. They would have written NOTHING for which anyone could possibly dislike the guy, if they were making it all up.And making what, exactly, all up?

The RESURRECTION. That thing for which they were killed, to which they witnessed.

Stuu
July 17th, 2017, 02:56 PM
Check your dictionary.

He is risen. :Plain:
I have a skeptics' dictionary. You won't like what it says in there about your fear, guilt, and inability to drop a belief that you know, deep down, is ridiculous.

Were you thinking of some other dictionary?

Stuart

Stuu
July 17th, 2017, 03:03 PM
If there was historical fiction being written, to portray him in a good light and to control people, these "nasty words" would have been omitted. Along with many other things.

Like deleting 33,000 emails. Get rid of the evidence. But the gospel writers did not get rid of things.
In an era where really only the Romans were writing diaries (Jesus isn't mentioned, apart from rare reporting of what christians had claimed about him), and when Jewish writing was allegorical to say the least, you really don't have any reliable evidence for the historicity of Jesus at all.

Really your best bet is to go with what I am telling you: the gospel writers did get history wrong, and they probably should have known better, so there must have been a real person they had in mind when writing the 'history', because otherwise they would not have needed to bend history to make the prophecy fit the life of the prophet.

The only other option is that it was an entirely invented historical fiction, with a fictional messiah character. The one thing you can't claim is the absolute correctness of scripture from an historical point of view. Some christians claim the bible 'Isn't a science textbook', well you can add that it isn't a history book either.

As for the nasty words, in the end they must be part of the prophecy fulfillment, mustn't they. The Jesus character doesn't deny the Jewish books of laws, and that's the point of course.

Stuart

Nick M
July 17th, 2017, 04:48 PM
In an era where really only the Romans were writing diaries (Jesus isn't mentioned, apart from rare reporting of what christians had claimed about him),

Of course not. Why would those politically opposed to him bring it up? They would not. You have no point to be made here.


ou really don't have any reliable evidence for the historicity of Jesus at all.

Except for the fact that we do. Like Pilate, Herod, Augustus, the documentation of the Dead Sea Scrolls, corroborating the testimony, and in hell Jewish heathen, Josephus, Agrippa. all having interaction. It would be very easy to disprove basic stuff, like arriving at the tomb, where the angel was, where the body was previously laying, the tomb that was new, carved from the rock...etc etc.


Really your best bet is to go with what I am telling you

:chuckle:


the gospel writers did get history wrong,

You would have provided an example.


ome christians claim the bible 'Isn't a science textbook', well you can add that it isn't a history book either.


Myself included. But you can't disprove anything. I realize we cannot prove or disprove many things.

Nick M
July 17th, 2017, 04:55 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYa-UhH3KEc

CherubRam
July 17th, 2017, 06:17 PM
I think GOD's grace is sufficient, and not determined by the behavior of mankind.
Free and not earned.

For one to believe this, they would have to concede that, yes, an openly practicing homo can indeed be just as saved as I am (who still sins in the flesh).
Matthew 7:23
Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Stuu
July 17th, 2017, 06:23 PM
Of course not. Why would those politically opposed to him bring it up? They would not. You have no point to be made here.
Why did the Romans record the opinions of the Jews / early christians at all then?


Except for the fact that we do. Like Pilate, Herod, Augustus, the documentation of the Dead Sea Scrolls, corroborating the testimony, and in hell Jewish heathen, Josephus, Agrippa. all having interaction. It would be very easy to disprove basic stuff, like arriving at the tomb, where the angel was, where the body was previously laying, the tomb that was new, carved from the rock...etc etc.
You are describing a history of ancient Palestine, and the point is that like any work of historical fiction, there are real places and people in the backdrop, but the story set there is fictional.

I'm always open to any actual evidence for the existence of Jesus, and I do believe there was such an historical person, but if you look into it you will find there really is little to nothing there to make the case. The two events that are generally agreed to have taken place are the baptism of Jesus and the crucifixion of Jesus. Really, nothing else can be relied upon by the standards of historical investigation.


You would have provided an example.
I'll repeat the two examples I already gave:

* The Census of Quirinius took place in 6CE, 10 years after the death of Herod in 4BCE.
* There was never a rule about having to relocate to ancestral lands to complete a Roman census.

So either Jesus was born at a time when there was no census, or during the census at a time when there was no Herod to slaughter male infants.

There is a great deal on the internet about the scholarship of the historicity of Jesus, and it is a very interesting example of how we have changed in our expectations of what can be said to be 'true' about the past. Did Homer exist? Probably not. What about Socrates? Maybe, but it's not likely the historical Socrates was anything like the Socrates of legend.

Of course it is possible that the gospels are an accurate account. But we cannot know they are, and it is extremely unlikely that they are.

Stuart

Angel4Truth
July 17th, 2017, 07:37 PM
People give labels . I was born in this place that people have decided to call England , they have put borders around it and made its own rules . So therefore people would label me as English . There are a lot of labels that we give each other , white , black , gay , saint , sinner . God doesn't see labels he sees us as individuals. You might be to narrow minded to k ow how to treat other brothers and sisters but God most certainly is not .


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

Jesus is narrowminded, like it or not.


John 14:6

6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Quite narrow and exclusive and removes all other "ways" and "gods"

This too:

Matthew 7:13-14
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Seems Jesus just told you how it is.

Angel4Truth
July 17th, 2017, 07:41 PM
I'd be interested to know from ToL contributors their experience of posting on 'atheist' forums, to find out which worldview is more likely to 'hand out bans'. I would have thought non-believers might be more tolerant of the expression of a wide range of views, but I suppose not necessarily.

Stuart

Atheists boards are more likely, after they whine on christian forums that they are treated like second class citizens, then they chomp at the bit to ban you outright on their boards. IIDB ended because of that very thing.

Nihilo
July 17th, 2017, 08:31 PM
I have a skeptics' dictionary. You won't like what it says in there about your fear, guilt, and inability to drop a belief that you know, deep down, is ridiculous.

Were you thinking of some other dictionary?

StuartThat is the best you've got.

:idunno:

Stuu
July 18th, 2017, 05:00 AM
That is the best you've got.
It's better than only having a platitude.

Stuart

Nihilo
July 18th, 2017, 08:06 AM
It's better than only having a platitude.

StuartBest be double-checking that dictionary of yours then.

He is risen.

Not a platitude.

:Plain:

Lon
July 18th, 2017, 10:07 AM
More sick fruit from the Calvinist/Reformed false gospel where men and women are just globs of clay with no personal responsibility. This is the gospel that Truster espouses.

I disagree with the pastor, Eugene Peterson, just like you. So did,does Truster. Why fight on an issue where he and I happen to agee with the Bible, the Lord Jesus Christ, and you? Can it actually be a "Calvinist" issue when a good many of us Calvinists disagree with Eugene Peterson?

Romans 9 "globs of clay" John 15:5 "no personal responsibility"
It 'seems' the Apostle Paul and the Lord Jesus Christ (Colossians 1:17) were Pavlovian/Skinnarian. I don't think you have to be Pavlovian or Skinnarian (B.F. Skinner) but I 'think' you have to keep verses in your bible and believe them. Proverbs 16:9

You, yourself, said some pretty awful things to me. Do you take responsibility for those things adverse to the heart of the Lord Jesus Christ? :think: It seems to me, you protest too much. If God doesn't make you a better person, this is all you will ever be, and according to your theology, all on your head. Would you be happy if He leaves you exactly as you are? No change? Don't knee-jerk so much. Don't cuss so much. It is you still stuck in your flesh. The 'GOOD' news about Skinnarian/Pavlovian psychology, is that it means theologically, as well, someone better than you and I, is working on us to get a 'different' response out of us. How much is God, "God" of your life? Imho, the whole way. That makes me Calvinist. Do you pray for Him to work in your life? Mellow you? Cause you love and grace? "IF" you pray for these things, no Calvinist, who is in Christ, does anything less and in those respects, you also are Calvinist by faith in Him and His ability to change you and me. It is Faith. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Calvinists do have a lot of redeemable qualities, even if we are wrong about some things, in your mind. This Calvinist isn't against you. I'm very much for you, and God working Sovereignly in your life. I pray that He changes you, even against your desire or helplessness contrary. Jeremiah 29:11

Lon
July 18th, 2017, 10:12 AM
I have a skeptics' dictionary. You won't like what it says in there about your fear, guilt, and inability to drop a belief that you know, deep down, is ridiculous. :nono: You went past 'skeptic' with that dictionary. Romans 1:19-22 It is intellectually counter-intuitive to assert what you just asserted. It is Certainly, by no means skepticism. Doubt is forgivable. Repression is something altogether different and a sin against your very own soul/self. You are 'harming' yourself by such a statement.

I KNOW there is a God. You've never asked me why or how BECAUSE you don't want to know. That's not skepticism. Your dictionary is the dictionary of denial and repression my friend, and it will only hurt yourself. God is, in fact there. If you are ever interested, ask me how I know. :e4e:

Angel4Truth
July 18th, 2017, 01:42 PM
He retracted what he said about gay marriage:

Actually, Eugene Peterson Does Not Support Same-Sex Marriage (http://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/july/eugene-peterson-actually-does-not-support-gay-marriage.html)


A day after a Religion News Service interview portrayed retired pastor and author Eugene Peterson as shifting to endorse same-sex marriage, the evangelical leader retracted his comment and upheld the traditional Christian stance instead.

“To clarify, I affirm a biblical view of marriage: one man to one woman. I affirm a biblical view of everything,” he said in a statement Thursday afternoon.

Peterson, best known for creating the paraphrased Bible translation The Message, also regrets the “confusion and bombast” in the fallout of his remarks, which were widely shared and commented on online yesterday.

Peterson stated:

Recently a reporter asked me whether my personal opinions about homosexuality and same-sex marriage have changed over the years. I presume I was asked this question because of my former career as a pastor in the Presbyterian Church (USA), which recently affirmed homosexuality and began allowing its clergy to perform same-sex weddings. Having retired from the pastorate more than 25 years ago, I acknowledged to the reporter that I “haven’t had a lot of experience with it.”

To clarify, I affirm a biblical view of marriage: one man to one woman. I affirm a biblical view of everything.

RNS columnist Jonathan Merritt had asked Peterson, “If you were pastoring today and a gay couple in your church who were Christians of good faith asked you to perform their same-sex wedding ceremony, is that something you would do?” Peterson had responded with one word: yes.

The interview was published Wednesday under this headline: Best-selling author Eugene Peterson changes his mind on gay marriage.

In his retraction, the 84-year-old said that in nearly three decades as a pastor and in the years since, “I’ve never performed a same-sex wedding. I’ve never been asked and, frankly, I hope I never am asked.

“This reporter, however, asked a hypothetical question: if I were pastoring today and if a gay couple were Christians of good faith and if they asked me to perform their wedding ceremony—if, if, if. Pastors don’t have the luxury of indulging in hypotheticals,” said Peterson. “And to be honest, no is not a word I typically use.”

Peterson went on to state that because of the biblical view of marriage, he would not marry a same-sex couple:

When put on the spot by this particular interviewer, I said yes in the moment. But on further reflection and prayer, I would like to retract that. That’s not something I would do out of respect to the congregation, the larger church body, and the historic biblical Christian view and teaching on marriage. That said, I would still love such a couple as their pastor. They’d be welcome at my table, along with everybody else.

A 2016 LifeWay Research survey found that only 1 in 10 Protestant pastors had been asked to officiate a same-sex wedding. Presbyterian pastors received the most requests, at 1 in 4, followed by Lutheran pastors at 1 in 5.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/images/77833.jpg?h=327&w=350

While mainline pastors were predictably more likely to receive such requests than evangelical pastors (18% vs. 6%), older pastors had been asked more often than younger pastors: 14 percent of those 55 and older, compared to 7 percent of those 54 and younger.

In a post about the retraction, Merritt explained that he asked Peterson about homosexuality after hearing privately that he affirmed same-sex relationships. Their conversation took place last week by phone and lasted about 30 minutes.

“It is possible that Peterson felt he had been placed on the spot and offered an answer that doesn’t reflect his true conviction,” Merritt wrote. “But it is also important to note that in the week prior to the publication of his answers, there was no attempt to clarify or change his answer to these questions.”

He dismissed claims that Peterson was too senile to respond accurately, and added that the author’s views on same-sex marriage “have no bearing on my respect for him or his ministry.”

Merritt later posted links to comments made by Peterson at Western Seminary in 2014, where Peterson said he “started to change my mind” on the status quo of gays being “really bad.” He also says that he “helped several families accept their children as gay,” finding that “this can be a flourishing thing.”

Peterson also addressed the observations he had shared with RNS about the gay congregants he had known and served over the years.

“When I told this reporter that there are gay and lesbian people who ‘seem to have as good a spiritual life as I do,’ I meant it,” he stated. “But then again, the goodness of a spiritual life is functionally irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

“We are saved by faith through grace that operates independent of our resolve or our good behavior,” he stated. “It operates by the hand of a loving God who desires for us to live in grace and truth and who does not tire of turning us toward both grace and truth.”

Peterson continued:

There have been gay people in a variety of congregations, campuses, and communities where I have served. My responsibility to them was the work of a pastor—to visit them, to care for their souls, to pray for them, to preach the Scriptures for them. This work of pastoring is extremely and essentially local: Each pastor is responsible to a particular people, a specific congregation. We often lose sight of that in an atmosphere so clouded by controversy and cluttered with loud voices. The people of a congregation are not abstractions, they are people, and a pastor does a disservice to the people in his care when he indulges in treating them as abstractions.

Following the RNS interview, Christians on both sides of the LGBT debate cited Peterson as one of the most high-profile evangelicals to publicly change his stance on sexuality.

LifeWay Christian Stores had reached out to “confirm with Eugene Peterson or his representatives that his recent interview on same-sex marriage accurately reflects his views.” A spokesperson said that because of his retraction, they will continue to sell his books, which include dozens of versions of The Message as well as A Long Obedience in the Same Direction and The Pastor. The store stopped selling Jen Hatmaker’s books last year after she also affirmed same-sex marriage in an interview with Merritt.

Peterson’s followup warned against pastors “getting clouded by controversy and cluttered with loud voices” rather than focusing on the specific needs of their congregations.

“I regret the confusion and bombast that this interview has fostered,” he said. “It has never been my intention to participate in the kind of lightless heat that such abstract, hypothetical comments and conversations generate.”

In the interview series with Merritt, Peterson also stated that he will no longer be writing, teaching, or speaking publicly. In his retraction, he reiterated his desire to avoid public statements and to restrict his communication to personal correspondence.

I wonder if this new stance he has is sincere, or is in response to lifeways threat to stop selling his books and resources.

Angel4Truth
July 18th, 2017, 01:48 PM
LifeWay Prepared to Stop Selling The Message Over Eugene Peterson’s LGBT Comments (http://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/july/lifeway-prepared-to-stop-selling-message-over-eugene-peters.html)


The Message Bible, The Pastor, and the rest of Eugene Peterson’s catalog may no longer be sold at America’s largest Christian retail chain due to the retired pastor’s revisited views on same-sex marriage.

In an interview published Wednesday, Peterson told Religion News Service columnist Jonathan Merritt that the “debate about lesbians and gays might be over” and that he would perform a same-sex wedding ceremony if he were pastoring today.

As Christians on both sides of the LGBT debate acknowledged Peterson as one of the most high-profile evangelicals to publicly change his stance on sexuality, LifeWay Christian Stores stated that if the popular author indeed supports same-sex marriage, its stores can no longer sell his books.

“LifeWay only carries resources in our stores by authors who hold to the biblical view of marriage,” stated a spokesperson for the affiliate of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC). “We are attempting to confirm with Eugene Peterson or his representatives that his recent interview on same-sex marriage accurately reflects his views. If he confirms he does not hold to a biblical view of marriage, LifeWay will no longer sell any resources by him, including The Message.”

The LifeWay website currently lists 135 titles by Peterson, including dozens of versions of his Message Bible, his memoir The Pastor, and his popular book on discipleship and the Psalms, A Long Obedience in the Same Direction.

The 84-year-old served for decades in the Presbyterian Church (USA), which now permits same-sex marriage and openly gay clergy. But Peterson has been widely read, celebrated, and respected among generations of evangelicals, including pastors.

After Christian author Jen Hatmaker affirmed same-sex marriage last year, also in an interview with Merritt, LifeWay stopped carrying her books, citing “significant changes in her theology of human sexuality and the meaning and definition of marriage … which contradict LifeWay’s doctrinal guidelines.”

As CT previously reported, LifeWay, which draws in 2.7 million customers a year, has chosen not to stock or to discontinue several prominent Christian authors, including Joel Osteen, William P. Young, and Joyce Meyer, due to its doctrinal standards. The chain has pulled titles from Mark Driscoll and books about heaven tourism. And despite remarks from Rachel Held Evans, it does not ban all books with the word vagina.

When influential evangelicals change their beliefs—or, in a different context, betray them with ethical or moral failures—followers who disagree are left wondering how it affects their relationship with the leader’s past work.

Will evangelicals who support traditional marriage still read The Message? Sure, some never got on board with Peterson’s paraphrase in the first place. But his evangelical fans will have to decide how much this shift impacts his overall teaching and body of work.

“I love Eugene Peterson. He’s a pastoral hero of mine. I disagree with him on the issue. I grieve how he’s being slandered,” tweeted Rich Villodas, pastor of New Life Fellowship, a multiethnic evangelical congregation in New York.

Jason Kovacs, pastor of care and counseling at the Austin Stone church, said he will continue to read Peterson, seeing his shift as a humble reminder that people inevitably change their minds for reasons good and bad.

“I also take it as a sobering call to think seriously about how to hold onto orthodox biblical truth while care well for the souls of people in our churches and cities in this day and age,” he said. “We cannot afford to lose the kind of pastoral imagination and practice that Eugene Peterson has blessed us with.”

Russell Moore, president of the SBC’s Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission (ERLC), addressed Peterson’s legacy for The Gospel Coalition, likening his news to Wendell Berry’s shift on the same issue.

Moore said that to avoid confusion, he probably wouldn’t give Peterson’s books to a new believer or invite him to speak at his church. Still, “I can’t un-highlight or un-flag my Peterson books,” he said. “I can’t erase from my mind all the things he has taught me.”

When asked about his views on same-sex marriage and homosexuality, Peterson said, in part:

I wouldn’t have said this 20 years ago, but now I know a lot of people who are gay and lesbian and they seem to have as good a spiritual life as I do. I think that kind of debate about lesbians and gays might be over. People who disapprove of it, they’ll probably just go to another church. So we’re in a transition and I think it’s a transition for the best, for the good. I don’t think it’s something that you can parade, but it’s not a right or wrong thing as far as I’m concerned.

Some evangelical leaders stated they were not surprised by the news; others were sad and disappointed at his remarks.

“How sad that a creative voice like Eugene Peterson would forsake the Scriptures and the Tradition that he so eloquently wrote of,” tweeted Andrew Walker, director of policy studies for the ERLC.

In the interview series with Merritt, Peterson also stated that he will no longer be writing, teaching, or speaking publicly.

And lifeways new stance after he retracted his gay marriage claim:

Southern Baptist-Owned LifeWay Stores Won’t Pull ‘Message Bible’ After Author’s ‘Gay Marriage’ Retraction (http://christiannews.net/2017/07/16/southern-baptist-owned-lifeway-stores-wont-pull-message-bible-after-authors-gay-marriage-retraction/)


LifeWay Christian Stores, which is owned by the Southern Baptist Convention, says that it will not pull the “Message Bible” or any of Eugene Peterson’s other writings now that the author has retracted his initial statements about same-sex “marriage.”

“Based upon Eugene Peterson’s retraction, we will continue to sell his resources,” Carol Pipes, the director of corporate communications for LifeWay Christian Resources, told Christian News Network in a statement.

The company had said last week that if Peterson indeeds supports homosexual “marriage,” as he seemingly indicated in his recent interview with Religion News Service, it would pull his products.

“LifeWay only carries resources in our stores by authors who hold to the biblical view of marriage,” it advised. “We are attempting to confirm with Eugene Peterson or his representatives that his recent interview on same-sex marriage accurately reflects his views. If he confirms he does not hold to a biblical view of marriage, LifeWay will no longer sell any resources by him, including The Message.”

LifeWay had pulled Jen Hatmaker’s books after she came out in support of same-sex nuptials last year.

As previously reported, on Wednesday, Religion News Service released an article entitled “Eugene Peterson on Changing His Mind About Same-Sex Issues and Marriage.”

“I wouldn’t have said this 20 years ago, but now I know a lot of people who are gay and lesbian and they seem to have as good a spiritual life as I do. I think that kind of debate about lesbians and gays might be over,” he told reporter Jonathan Merritt.

Peterson, who led Christ Our King Presbyterian Church in Maryland for nearly 30 years before his retirement in 1991, explained that he never made “a big deal” about homosexuality in his congregation, and that he was pleased at how his members never questioned the allowance of an openly homosexual man to serve as music director.

The man had applied for the position as the former worship leader left her post at the same time Peterson retired.

“When he found out about the opening, he showed up in church one day and stood up and said, ‘I’d like to apply for the job of music director here, and I’m gay,’” Peterson recalled. “We didn’t have any gay people in the whole congregation. Well, some of them weren’t openly gay. But I was so pleased with the congregation. Nobody made any questions about it. And he was a really good musician.”

He said that he thinks that the Church is in a “transition for the best” on the issue, and doesn’t see it as a matter of right and wrong.

“People who disapprove of it, they’ll probably just go to another church,” Peterson stated. “So we’re in a transition and I think it’s a transition for the best, for the good. I don’t think it’s something that you can parade, but it’s not a right or wrong thing as far as I’m concerned.”

When asked if he would be willing to officiate a same-sex ceremony for “Christians of good faith” if he were pastoring today, Peterson replied in the affirmative.

However, the following day after the interview was published, Peterson, 84, walked back his answer, remarking that he had been put on the spot with a hypothetical question.

“To clarify, I affirm a biblical view of marriage: one man to one woman. I affirm a biblical view of everything,” he said in a statement. “I’ve never performed a same-sex wedding. I’ve never been asked and, frankly, I hope I never am asked.”

“This reporter, however, asked a hypothetical question: if I were pastoring today and if a gay couple were Christians of good faith and if they asked me to perform their wedding ceremony—if, if, if. Pastors don’t have the luxury of indulging in hypotheticals,” Peterson explained. “And to be honest, no is not a word I typically use.”

He acknowledged that he did respond yes (that he would officiate a same-sex ceremony) during the interview, but said he only did so “in the moment” and felt the need to retract his answer upon praying about the matter.

“When put on the spot by this particular interviewer, I said yes in the moment. But on further reflection and prayer, I would like to retract that,” Peterson said. “That’s not something I would do out of respect to the congregation, the larger church body, and the historic biblical Christian view and teaching on marriage. That said, I would still love such a couple as their pastor. They’d be welcome at my table, along with everybody else.”

The former author and speaker also softened his remark that homosexuals “seem to have as good a spiritual life as I do.”

“When I told this reporter that there are gay and lesbian people who ‘seem to have as good a spiritual life as I do,’ I meant it. But then again, the goodness of a spiritual life is functionally irrelevant in the grand scheme of things,” Peterson stated.

“We are saved by faith through grace that operates independent of our resolve or our good behavior. It operates by the hand of a loving God who desires for us to live in grace and truth and who does not tire of turning us toward both grace and truth,” he said.

Peterson outlined that there have been homosexuals in the various venues where he has served and noted that his “responsibility to them was the work of a pastor—to visit them, to care for their souls, to pray for them, to preach the Scriptures for them.”

He said that he regretted the problems caused by the matter, pointing again to the question being hypothetical.

“I regret the confusion and bombast that this interview has fostered,” Peterson stated. “It has never been my intention to participate in the kind of lightless heat that such abstract, hypothetical comments and conversations generate.”

As previously reported, Peterson’s “Message Bible” does not specifically mention homosexuality, but instead reads as its paraphrase for 1 Corinthians 6:9, “Unjust people who don’t care about God will not be joining in His kingdom. Those who use and abuse each other, use and abuse sex, use and abuse the earth and everything in it, don’t qualify as citizens in God’s kingdom.”

Stuu
July 18th, 2017, 03:39 PM
:nono: You went past 'skeptic' with that dictionary. Romans 1:19-22 It is intellectually counter-intuitive to assert what you just asserted. It is Certainly, by no means skepticism. Doubt is forgivable. Repression is something altogether different and a sin against your very own soul/self. You are 'harming' yourself by such a statement.

I KNOW there is a God. You've never asked me why or how BECAUSE you don't want to know. That's not skepticism. Your dictionary is the dictionary of denial and repression my friend, and it will only hurt yourself. God is, in fact there. If you are ever interested, ask me how I know. :e4e:
I think if you reflect on your answer, it is one that betrays fear, possibly guilt, and a major dose of knowing that these beliefs really are ridiculous.

Of course that part is important, isn't it. The meme, of whatever variety, requires a strong commitment and has a brilliant way of hijacking the human brain: it makes you commit to concepts that are really absurd because the more absurd the idea you have committed to, the less likely you are to backtrack and risk that high-stakes investment.

The 'you are harming yourself' statement is a classic strategy, painting yourself as being a bit hurt that I would question your concern for my well-being.

You do also try throwing the vitriol of Saul of Tarsus at me, which is a mixed strategy. It might be better to stick to either threats or pathos, but not both in the same post.


Stuart

Stuu
July 18th, 2017, 03:54 PM
Best be double-checking that dictionary of yours then.

He is risen.

Not a platitude.

:Plain:
Your strategy is much better than Lon's (sorry Lon, but it is). Just stick with the same platitude and repeat it until the person at whom it is aimed starts to double-guess and wonder if actually there might be something in it.

Of course there isn't. If you mean to claim that ancient Jews that were successfully executed by the Romans can get up and walk, then your belief of that is a major achievement by the meme that has hijacked your mind. How do you get out of that one? It would be a significant volte-face, as they say en France.

Not sure what to suggest. Maybe just honesty with those who might have also committed to the idea. Just say, you know, had a rethink and clearly dead Jews don't just up and walk. You might lose some friends, or they might just say, yeah I was wondering about that too.

Stuart

Stuu
July 18th, 2017, 03:59 PM
Atheists boards are more likely, after they whine on christian forums that they are treated like second class citizens, then they chomp at the bit to ban you outright on their boards. IIDB ended because of that very thing.
That's interesting. I posted on an atheist forum many years ago (can't remember the name of it now) and they didn't look like they were banning anyone. I also posted on a christian forum at the same time, and they only seemed to ban christians, never the resident atheists!

Stuart

Jacob
July 18th, 2017, 05:12 PM
Shalom.

Homosexuality is against God's Law. It should not be practiced, permitted, or approved of by anyone. Homosexual acts are punishable by death. Homosexual tendencies can be corrected by God. I am not sure why they exist, but though these are not the acts that are punishable by death themselves, they may be indicative of sin, having been in the presence of sin, even lustful thoughts or behaviors, or even something beyond the individual's control such as something that cannot be seen but still affects or effects the way the person thinks and the way that the mind works. It is a shame that the righteous or angels would be called upon by God to kill those who commit homosexual acts, according to the manner as prescribed in Torah Law. For then they would be in the presence of this sin. God may kill the person by Himself. If no one knew about it, nothing would have ever been done about it. But all sin is known to be sin. Nothing escapes God's notice, though sin should not be and is said to not be permitted in the presence of God. In fact, if there has ever been sin in the presence of God, whatever the presence of God is, it is not allowed or permitted in is punished just as with all other sin committed against God and our fellow man, our neighbors, from those of Israel, to the United States of America, and around the world. If you have ever participated in homosexual sin or been around homosexual sin (homosexuality is sin), or had a tendency perceived to be homosexual in nature, repent that you would be forgiven this sin, and repent of all your sins that you would be forgiven all your sins, and trust in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and the free gift of eternal life (if God would permit this for the sin of homosexuality, is a question), put your faith in God and in Jesus Christ, and you will be forgiven... though you may die for your sin. God holds everyone accountable for what they do, every sin, every idle word, every thought or every lustful thought, even the angels for that which they should have done something about I believe, and so some people will not be forgiven for their sin. Repent, and if God grants you repentance or salvation, with your faith in God, live your life according to God's law, to the glory of God. May your good works be known to all men. May God be praised for the work of salvation that He has done in your life. May that which is not of and from God, though God created the world in which we live, for us to enjoy, and that we would please and glorify God, cease to exist. May it be eradicated from the face of the earth. May the righteous flourish, and may the wicked come to their end.

Shalom.

Jacob

Lon
July 18th, 2017, 05:36 PM
I think if you reflect on your answer, it is one that betrays fear, possibly guilt, and a major dose of knowing that these beliefs really are ridiculous. It is like arguing with a blind man about the color of red. You CAN wish with all your might, but you are arrogantly stubbornly wrong, sport. Einstein said atheism was 'lame' specifically because of the arrogance, audacity, and blindness of turning off part of one's brain, literally. If you want to go through life deaf to that part, you can try and accomplish it but as I told you, I 'know' there is a God. I EVEN invited you to ask me. What did you do? :think: (seriously, THINK). :think:


Of course that part is important, isn't it. The meme, of whatever variety, requires a strong commitment and has a brilliant way of hijacking the human brain: it makes you commit to concepts that are really absurd because the more absurd the idea you have committed to, the less likely you are to backtrack and risk that high-stakes investment. Er, Einstein didn't think so. I don't think so (my IQ isn't quite his though). It frankly, is counter-intuitive to everything "logical" and "evident" to say otherwise else Einstein wouldn't have said "Lame."


The 'you are harming yourself' statement is a classic strategy, painting yourself as being a bit hurt that I would question your concern for my well-being. It doesn't matter if it is classic. You are literally becoming brain-dead. I don't say stupid because it is thrown out in wrong contexts, but you ARE dumbing yourself down to hold to this. Every atheist is. You aren't a skeptic (agnostic), you are an atheist as in ANTI-Theist. It is you killing off your own imago deo inquiry that 'naturally' existed in you before you went this direction. It is mental seppuku. God says so, Einstein says so, I say so. You? Go ahead. There are a few like less-minded on the planet. Have at it, it is burying your head and entirely for preference and NOTHING else. Did you think that laudable? :think: It isn't. It is much worse than that frankly. It is ignorant arrogant is what it is. I know there is a color red. I could give a rip what a blind man thinks about that. In true reality, he is only harming himself, if somehow he doubts a red light with his walking stick. Same for you. You can do as you like. Warnings are about all I'm going to be interested in giving you, when you get obnoxious. If you were close, I would knock you on the ground to stop the truck from hitting your ignorant backside. I'm not heartless, just can't knock you on your backside this side of the internet. Your demise will be upon your own watch. If you live near me, I'll do my best on the street.


You do also try throwing the vitriol of Saul of Tarsus at me, which is a mixed strategy. It might be better to stick to either threats or pathos, but not both in the same post. No, for me it is a bit beyond that. The blind man will rant that he is hurt or wet when I knock him out of the way and not thank me. It is understood, Stu. You can take it anyway you like. I'm not stepping in to hear my own voice. ONLY a bit of concern had me responding at all. Yes, I think you exactly like a few arrogant/ignorant blind folks I've come across and helped. Why were they so chagrined over a well meaning 'sight' warning? Yeah, he stumbled and while I had room to chuckle because he wasn't seriously hurt 1) He did indeed get hurt for his arrogance and 2) He did indeed naysay what I KNEW and he could not. Same here. You can be as chagrined or arrogant about it, but I'm the one that CAN see in this exchange. AGAIN, you didn't bother to ask. I'll not knock you down until it is your life in my hands, and then I won't be playing games. "IF" I can stop it, I will, regardless if you thank me for it. That really doesn't concern me. Your actual well-being does. And yeah, I'd risk my life to do so. Tough noogies, even if you complain because you didn't see it coming and completely missed it in real life. For you, Pascal's wager is worth your reconsideration. Don't think it was the only thing Pascal had, he was coming up with something 'for you' (the other guy). -Lon

Epoisses
July 18th, 2017, 06:34 PM
I disagree with the pastor, Eugene Peterson, just like you. So did,does Truster. Why fight on an issue where he and I happen to agee with the Bible, the Lord Jesus Christ, and you? Can it actually be a "Calvinist" issue when a good many of us Calvinists disagree with Eugene Peterson?

Romans 9 "globs of clay" John 15:5 "no personal responsibility"
It 'seems' the Apostle Paul and the Lord Jesus Christ (Colossians 1:17) were Pavlovian/Skinnarian. I don't think you have to be Pavlovian or Skinnarian (B.F. Skinner) but I 'think' you have to keep verses in your bible and believe them. Proverbs 16:9

You, yourself, said some pretty awful things to me. Do you take responsibility for those things adverse to the heart of the Lord Jesus Christ? :think: It seems to me, you protest too much. If God doesn't make you a better person, this is all you will ever be, and according to your theology, all on your head. Would you be happy if He leaves you exactly as you are? No change? Don't knee-jerk so much. Don't cuss so much. It is you still stuck in your flesh. The 'GOOD' news about Skinnarian/Pavlovian psychology, is that it means theologically, as well, someone better than you and I, is working on us to get a 'different' response out of us. How much is God, "God" of your life? Imho, the whole way. That makes me Calvinist. Do you pray for Him to work in your life? Mellow you? Cause you love and grace? "IF" you pray for these things, no Calvinist, who is in Christ, does anything less and in those respects, you also are Calvinist by faith in Him and His ability to change you and me. It is Faith. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Calvinists do have a lot of redeemable qualities, even if we are wrong about some things, in your mind. This Calvinist isn't against you. I'm very much for you, and God working Sovereignly in your life. I pray that He changes you, even against your desire or helplessness contrary. Jeremiah 29:11

My bark is much worse than my bite. :DK: Lon if you were honest you would admit that not only yourself but every other Calvinist makes personal decisions or choices in their every day life. These choices can never save us but they can affect our walk with Christ especially if he is directing us elsewhere.

shopkinslpskids
July 18th, 2017, 07:23 PM
LifeWay Prepared to Stop Selling The Message Over Eugene Peterson’s LGBT Comments (http://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/july/lifeway-prepared-to-stop-selling-message-over-eugene-peters.html)



And lifeways new stance after he retracted his gay marriage claim:

Southern Baptist-Owned LifeWay Stores Won’t Pull ‘Message Bible’ After Author’s ‘Gay Marriage’ Retraction (http://christiannews.net/2017/07/16/southern-baptist-owned-lifeway-stores-wont-pull-message-bible-after-authors-gay-marriage-retraction/)Good for Lifeway!!

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Stuu
July 18th, 2017, 08:22 PM
It is like arguing with a blind man about the color of red. You CAN wish with all your might, but you are arrogantly stubbornly wrong, sport.
That would be the fear and the knowledge of ridiculous beliefs talking. Don't forget I'm not the one with the burden of proof over claims that are prima-facie crazy. People don't walk again after they have been successfully executed, people aren't born of only one biological parent and people don't walk on the surface of water. Just placing yourself amongst others who have also had their minds hijacked doesn't make the crazy true.

Einstein said atheism was 'lame' specifically because of the arrogance, audacity, and blindness of turning off part of one's brain, literally.
More knowledge that the beliefs are ridiculous. Not sure what part of the brain you are referring to there. I know Einstein dissociated himself from the word atheist; he was agnostic and a fan of Spinoza's god, but was atheist in all but name. Spinoza's god is a metaphor for awe at the comprehensibility and beauty of the universe. Tell us what Einstein said about religious beliefs...

If you want to go through life deaf to that part, you can try and accomplish it but as I told you, I 'know' there is a God. I EVEN invited you to ask me. What did you do? (seriously, THINK).
Now the fear is making you put your hands over your ears and shout 'I can't hear you'. You invited me to ask you what, again? What is particular about your special pleading?

Er, Einstein didn't think so. I don't think so (my IQ isn't quite his though). It frankly, is counter-intuitive to everything "logical" and "evident" to say otherwise else Einstein wouldn't have said "Lame."
Do you actually know why he used the word 'lame'? I'll leave it to you to look it up. And I wouldn't use a christian website to do it, they always lie about Einstein, or at least entirely misunderstand him. Ok, here's a clue: he called himself a 'religious non-believer'.


It doesn't matter if it is classic.
Ok, call it a hackneyed strategy then.


You are literally becoming brain-dead. I don't say stupid because it is thrown out in wrong contexts, but you ARE dumbing yourself down to hold to this. Every atheist is. You aren't a skeptic (agnostic), you are an atheist as in ANTI-Theist.
Yes, I would put myself in the category of anti-theist. Remember it's not me claiming absolute knowledge of the existence of invisible sky friends.

Here you are placing me in the out-group, based on the fear that everything (whatever that is) will collapse if doubt starts to catch on.


It is you killing off your own imago deo inquiry that 'naturally' existed in you before you went this direction. It is mental seppuku.
I think you're overplaying your hand there. Why not just go back to Saul of Tarsus? If you stuck to that then others reading this would find some common ground with you, not just be alarmed by your naked fear. I note we haven't got to guilt yet. Interesting.


God says so, Einstein says so, I say so. You? Go ahead.
Einstein thought your kinds of beliefs were 'naive'.

Of course, Einstein was wrong about things, so I'm not sure why you are putting so much store in what he said. Some very capable people have been very wrong.


There are a few like less-minded on the planet. Have at it, it is burying your head and entirely for preference and NOTHING else. Did you think that laudable? It isn't. It is much worse than that frankly. It is ignorant arrogant is what it is. I know there is a color red. I could give a rip what a blind man thinks about that. In true reality, he is only harming himself, if somehow he doubts a red light with his walking stick. Same for you. You can do as you like. Warnings are about all I'm going to be interested in giving you, when you get obnoxious. If you were close, I would knock you on the ground to stop the truck from hitting your ignorant backside. I'm not heartless, just can't knock you on your backside this side of the internet. Your demise will be upon your own watch. If you live near me, I'll do my best on the street.
So we are back to looking hurt that your good intentions are being spurned. We could discuss the immorality of the offer. If there is such a metaphorical truck, then given the alternative, the only ethical option is to be hit by it.


No, for me it is a bit beyond that. The blind man will rant that he is hurt or wet when I knock him out of the way and not thank me. It is understood, Stu. You can take it anyway you like. I'm not stepping in to hear my own voice. ONLY a bit of concern had me responding at all. Yes, I think you exactly like a few arrogant/ignorant blind folks I've come across and helped. Why were they so chagrined over a well meaning 'sight' warning? Yeah, he stumbled and while I had room to chuckle because he wasn't seriously hurt 1) He did indeed get hurt for his arrogance and 2) He did indeed naysay what I KNEW and he could not. Same here. You can be as chagrined or arrogant about it, but I'm the one that CAN see in this exchange. AGAIN, you didn't bother to ask. I'll not knock you down until it is your life in my hands, and then I won't be playing games. "IF" I can stop it, I will, regardless if you thank me for it. That really doesn't concern me. Your actual well-being does. And yeah, I'd risk my life to do so. Tough noogies, even if you complain because you didn't see it coming and completely missed it in real life.
Boy, you're really doing it tough at my lack of interest.


For you, Pascal's wager is worth your reconsideration. Don't think it was the only thing Pascal had, he was coming up with something 'for you' (the other guy).
Pascal's Wager is one of the most spineless pieces of philosophy ever devised. What god worth worshiping would be fooled by that??

Stuart

Stuu
July 18th, 2017, 08:38 PM
Homosexuality is against God's Law.
That is a rule of your christian club.


It should not be practiced, permitted, or approved of by anyone.
Fair enough that you warn other christians about the rule, but why should the rest of us have to follow your club rules?

Stuart

Lon
July 18th, 2017, 11:25 PM
That would be the fear and the knowledge of ridiculous beliefs talking.
:nono:



Pascal's Wager is one of the most spineless pieces of philosophy ever devised. What god worth worshiping would be fooled by that??

Stuart :doh: Again, it was for 'your' benefit that he even tried, you little self-centered freak. "IF" God is going to talk to you, it is going to have to be through an incredibly thick head first. Paul said the man without the Spirit could not grasp this stuff. It really pushes past IQ and all this posturing and reaches to what really matters and what does not. "IF" the flesh is all you've got, you don't have room for any of the rest of this and have killed it off in yourself.

I've left off the rest. Your real need is seeing the miraculous, things that only God 'could' do. You never have. That makes you blind and anyone else that has seen them, having sight. For some reason, you 'think' blind is natural for the rest of us. The analogy is appropriate. Don't be so ignorantly arrogant. It has everything to do with your lack. We could compare IQ's but God isn't really interested in knocking your brains in or out. He opposes the proud. Until you reach a point where you recognize you are creature, not god, you'll never be ready for Him. The blindness is your own. How does one prove to a blind man he is the only one blind if he ignorantly refuses red can even exist. To that poor man, he is left alone with his ignorant arrogance. That is why you never ask how I know. You've discounted the existence of 'red' (by analogy) long ago. Sorry, your problem. I will not stay and rub your nose in it, just feel bad for you. There is nothing left for me to say to you about it. Contemplate or not Stu, your call. -Lon

Stuu
July 19th, 2017, 01:36 AM
Again, it was for 'your' benefit that he even tried, you little self-centered freak.
Boy, personal abuse. Look at all you are doing for me, and see how ungrateful I am. Atheism must really be beyond the pale, eh readers?


"IF" God is going to talk to you, it is going to have to be through an incredibly thick head first.
This is better politics from you. Now you are persisting with spin and ignoring the question of how ridiculous the beliefs are. And a further touch of abuse. That will play really well with some, but the others who don't like it will be brought into line by their personal fear.


Paul said the man without the Spirit could not grasp this stuff. It really pushes past IQ and all this posturing and reaches to what really matters and what does not. "IF" the flesh is all you've got, you don't have room for any of the rest of this and have killed it off in yourself.
Again, much better. Saul of Tarsus and 'what really matters'. No messing around now. The beliefs are ridiculous but somehow that seems less important when you can really step in and tell it like it is (or isn't).


I've left off the rest. Your real need is seeing the miraculous, things that only God 'could' do. You never have. That makes you blind and anyone else that has seen them, having sight. For some reason, you 'think' blind is natural for the rest of us. The analogy is appropriate. Don't be so ignorantly arrogant. It has everything to do with your lack. We could compare IQ's but God isn't really interested in knocking your brains in or out. He opposes the proud. Until you reach a point where you recognize you are creature, not god, you'll never be ready for Him. The blindness is your own. How does one prove to a blind man he is the only one blind if he ignorantly refuses red can even exist. To that poor man, he is left alone with his ignorant arrogance. That is why you never ask how I know. You've discounted the existence of 'red' (by analogy) long ago. Sorry, your problem. I will not stay and rub your nose in it, just feel bad for you. There is nothing left for me to say to you about it. Contemplate or not Stu, your call. -Lon
Miracles, blindness, arrogance, brains, pride, and pity. You've undone all your previous 'good' work.

It looks to me like you don't just believe in the belief in a god, you really believe in this god. From what you write, it is a vengeful god that you really fear. From the preachy tone you take, it's clear that you also fear the consequences of people starting to doubt this god is really there. You have to cling to this no matter what, and that includes trying to head off any challenge of it. In particular you have shunned my offer to discuss the morality of the christian proposition. You fear being exposed, and I'll bet you don't post on atheist websites. But I think you don't have a clear strategy in dealing with me, and you have weakened your position by not addressing my criticisms honestly.

Stuart

Jacob
July 19th, 2017, 04:03 AM
That is a rule of your christian club.


Fair enough that you warn other christians about the rule, but why should the rest of us have to follow your club rules?

Stuart
Shalom.

I am not a Christian. I am a Jew, of Israel, and a citizen of the United States of America. I read, study, observe, keep, and teach Torah. I am a proselyte and a convert to Israel and Judaism. I serve the one true God, the God of the Universe, the God of Israel, the Jew, and the Gentiles, the Nations, whose name is Yahveh, and Jesus Christ, Yeshua HaMashiach, His Son, my King, Master, Lord, and Savior, my Messiah, the Messiah of all Israel, and the world. As a man and a citizen of the United States of America of age 36 I am able and willing to serve the American people as President of the United States of America if I am someday elected President by the Electoral College. I am studying and training to be a Rabbi. It is in Jesus Christ alone that you will find salvation, the forgiveness of your sins, and the free gift of eternal life. There is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved. I accept the TaNaKh and Matthew through Revelation. I have read the Bible. I am a former Christian. It is possible to be a Christian and believe, follow, and obey God's Law, being of Israel, and not believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. I do not accept the doctrine of the Trinity. The New Covenant is for the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It is God's law written on minds and hearts, in Yeshua HaMashiach who died for you.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 NASB - 31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

Matthew 5:17-20 NASB - 17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Acts 4:12 NASB - 12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 16:31 NASB - 31 They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Acts 15:19-32 NASB - 19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 "For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath." 22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas--Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, 23 and they sent this letter by them, "The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings. 24 "Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls, 25 it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 "Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials: 29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell." 30 So when they were sent away, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter. 31 When they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement. 32 Judas and Silas, also being prophets themselves, encouraged and strengthened the brethren with a lengthy message.

Shalom.

Jacob

Stuu
July 19th, 2017, 06:56 AM
Shalom.

I am not a Christian. I am a Jew, of Israel, and a citizen...
Thanks for your personal introduction and clarification of your position. Are you sure that you are not a christian just because of a lack of belief in the trinity? There are plenty that don't believe that doctrine who call themselves christian.

In any case, can I recast my question in the light of your reply?

Fair enough that you warn other Abrahamists about the rule, but why should the rest of us have to follow your club rules?

Stuart

Jacob
July 19th, 2017, 07:07 AM
Thanks for your personal introduction and clarification of your position. Are you sure that you are not a christian just because of a lack of belief in the trinity? There are plenty that don't believe that doctrine who call themselves christian.

In any case, can I recast my question in the light of your reply?

Fair enough that you warn other Abrahamists about the rule, but why should the rest of us have to follow your club rules?

StuartShalom.

You do not need to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian. You can be a Christian and not believe in the Trinity.

I do not know what you are asking about club rules. I am referring to and talking about God's Law, which is not up for negotiation.

Shalom.

Jacob

exminister
July 19th, 2017, 07:29 AM
He retracted what he said about gay marriage:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/images/77833.jpg?h=327&w=350

Actually, Eugene Peterson Does Not Support Same-Sex Marriage (http://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2017/july/eugene-peterson-actually-does-not-support-gay-marriage.html)



I wonder if this new stance he has is sincere, or is in response to lifeways threat to stop selling his books and resources.

On the chart it says 1% of Pastors where not sure if they were being asked to perform a same sex marriage. :think:

Lon
July 19th, 2017, 08:35 AM
Boy, personal abuse. Look at all you are doing for me, and see how ungrateful I am. Atheism must really be beyond the pale, eh readers? Attitude is much of this. :Plain: If you were the poster child, I'd avoid Atheism just on that point alone, sport. :wave:

ok doser
July 19th, 2017, 08:42 AM
The blind man sez:

It looks to me....


It's official

You're a retard :nono:

Angel4Truth
July 19th, 2017, 11:55 AM
That is a rule of your christian club.


Fair enough that you warn other christians about the rule, but why should the rest of us have to follow your club rules?

Stuart

You don't have to, you can worship demons and yourself all you want in this life, but do know one day you will bend your knee to God and confess Him as God.

Angel4Truth
July 19th, 2017, 11:56 AM
On the chart it says 1% of Pastors where not sure if they were being asked to perform a same sex marriage. :think:

yeah weird isnt it. I think when people dont want to answer, they just say they aren't sure.

jamie
July 19th, 2017, 12:41 PM
I am not a Christian.


Enough said.

Jacob
July 19th, 2017, 01:02 PM
Enough said.
Shalom.

Jacob

exminister
July 19th, 2017, 01:09 PM
yeah weird isnt it. I think when people dont want to answer, they just say they aren't sure.

You got a point there.

Stuu
July 19th, 2017, 01:47 PM
Shalom.

You do not need to believe in the Trinity to be a Christian. You can be a Christian and not believe in the Trinity.

I do not know what you are asking about club rules. I am referring to and talking about God's Law, which is not up for negotiation.

Shalom.

Jacob
In your ambition to be president, have you considered that you might be president over a people with many different ethical systems, and that your ethical system seems to be based on the bible, which might seem to you like an essential thing for all people to follow, but to other people looks a bit like a club for believers?

Your club has rules, which are written in scripture, as you have homophobically pointed out. Why should those who are not in the Jewish Beliefs club have to follow your Jewish Belief club rules?

Stuart

Stuu
July 19th, 2017, 01:49 PM
Attitude is much of this. :Plain: If you were the poster child, I'd avoid Atheism just on that point alone, sport. :wave:
Like Einstein (and there isn't a great deal about me that is like Einstein), I don't like the term atheist either. It defines me in terms of other people's delusions.

Stuart

Stuu
July 19th, 2017, 01:51 PM
The blind man sez:


It's official

You're a retard :nono:
Compared to what you called Obama, it looks like I got away lightly.

I always appreciate name-calling, it is a demonstration of your opponent's fear and lack of any valid argument.

Stuart

Stuu
July 19th, 2017, 01:54 PM
You don't have to, you can worship demons and yourself all you want in this life, but do know one day you will bend your knee to God and confess Him as God.
Don't forget about the baby eating and voodoo dolls.

I think one day I will be dead and it will be all over at that point, and I think you secretly know that is true too. It's the least ridiculous of the suggested options.

Stuart

Jacob
July 19th, 2017, 02:01 PM
In your ambition to be president, have you considered that you might be president over a people with many different ethical systems, and that your ethical system seems to be based on the bible, which might seem to you like an essential thing for all people to follow, but to other people looks a bit like a club for believers?

Your club has rules, which are written in scripture, as you have homophobically pointed out. Why should those who are not in the Jewish Beliefs club have to follow your Jewish Belief club rules?

Stuart
Shalom.

I do not know what you are talking about. The United States of America was founded upon the Judeo-Christian Principle, Ethic, and Religion. That is not going to change.

Can you imagine a world without God and His Law? If you were left to your own desires you would not experience the joy, safety, and protection of and in God's Law. This is why God gave us His Law. Because He cares for us and wants the best for us.

Shalom.

Jacob

Stuu
July 19th, 2017, 04:50 PM
Shalom.

I do not know what you are talking about. The United States of America was founded upon the Judeo-Christian Principle, Ethic, and Religion. That is not going to change.

Can you imagine a world without God and His Law? If you were left to your own desires you would not experience the joy, safety, and protection of and in God's Law. This is why God gave us His Law. Because He cares for us and wants the best for us.

Shalom.

Jacob
Good luck to you. For the sake of justice I hope you never make president.

Stuart

Jacob
July 19th, 2017, 05:21 PM
Good luck to you. For the sake of justice I hope you never make president.

Stuart
Shalom.

You are welcome to think about and share your idea of what is justice.

Shalom.

Jacob

Stuu
July 19th, 2017, 05:56 PM
Shalom.

You are welcome to think about and share your idea of what is justice.

Shalom.

Jacob
Thank you for the invitation. I think justice is when people don't make homophobic rants that make suicide more likely in young people, some of whom take a while to develop confidence in their place along the continuum of sexuality, wherever it ends up.

Stuart

Lon
July 19th, 2017, 06:16 PM
Like Einstein (and there isn't a great deal about me that is like Einstein), I don't like the term atheist either. It defines me in terms of other people's delusions.

Stuart
Old and wrinkly? Flunked math? Messy hair? Baggy pants? Jewish? :think:

Stuu
July 19th, 2017, 06:20 PM
Old and wrinkly? Flunked math? Messy hair? Baggy pants? Jewish? :think:
None of those things, quite. But I'm certainly not capable of reconciling the quantum world with relativity, which I imagine is what Einstein would be working on / objecting to if he were alive today.

Stuart

Jacob
July 19th, 2017, 06:57 PM
Thank you for the invitation. I think justice is when people don't make homophobic rants that make suicide more likely in young people, some of whom take a while to develop confidence in their place along the continuum of sexuality, wherever it ends up.

Stuart
Shalom.

All people should live according to God's Law. This is not about suicide. No one should commit suicide. It is against God's Law.

Is it justice when a criminal goes free? After serving time? Once they have been convicted? Before they are a convicted criminal? If a crime is committed and nothing is done about it, is that justice? If someone steals something, should they return it?

Shalom.

Jacob

Stuu
July 19th, 2017, 09:02 PM
Shalom.

All people should live according to God's Law. This is not about suicide. No one should commit suicide. It is against God's Law.
It's really about love, isn't it? Here are two cases:

1. Two young people, of the same gender, fall in love. They are devoted to the well-being of one another and care for one another through good times and bad.

2. A ruling power makes a rule that everyone has to love it, and if they don't then they will be punished for a very long time.

Which strikes you as the more ethical situation?

Stuart

ok doser
July 19th, 2017, 09:09 PM
I think one day I will be dead ...




Awww, stuuu


You don't get it



You're already dead

Stuu
July 19th, 2017, 09:16 PM
Awww, stuuu You don't get it You're already dead
According to what scripture, exactly?

Stuart

Jacob
July 19th, 2017, 09:17 PM
It's really about love, isn't it? Here are two cases:

1. Two young people, of the same gender, fall in love. They are devoted to the well-being of one another and care for one another through good times and bad.

2. A ruling power makes a rule that everyone has to love it, and if they don't then they will be punished for a very long time.

Which strikes you as the more ethical situation?

Stuart
Shalom.

Neither is ethical.

Shalom.

Jacob

ok doser
July 19th, 2017, 09:18 PM
According to what scripture, exactly?

Stuart

Not a single one that you'd believe :chuckle:

Stuu
July 19th, 2017, 09:22 PM
Not a single one that you'd believe :chuckle:
That may be true. But you should justify it to the brethren here, otherwise how is it not a death threat?

Stuart

Stuu
July 19th, 2017, 10:05 PM
Shalom.

Neither is ethical.

Shalom.

Jacob
How much of the New Testament does your worldview include?

In Case 1, you are condemned for your lack of concern for young gay people according to Matthew 25:41-46. They are in need of your help to decrease the homophobia in the world, but you have only increased it.

If you call Case 2 immoral, you are condemned because in Luke 10:25-28 you must love the ruling power or else you don't have eternal life, the alternative being that outlined in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 where you suffer everlasting punishment for not following the gospels.

Of course if you just stick to the Torah, there really isn't a punishing hell to be worried about.

Stuart

Jacob
July 19th, 2017, 10:10 PM
How much of the New Testament does your worldview include?

In Case 1, you are condemned for your lack of concern for young gay people according to Matthew 25:41-46. They are in need of your help to decrease the homophobia in the world, but you have only increased it.

If you call Case 2 immoral, you are condemned because in Luke 10:25-28 you must love the ruling power or else you don't have eternal life, the alternative being that outlined in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 where you suffer everlasting punishment for not following the gospels.

Of course if you just stick to the Torah, there really isn't a punishing hell to be worried about.

Stuart
Shalom.

Do you have a question about the Torah?

Shalom.

Jacob

Stuu
July 19th, 2017, 10:16 PM
Shalom.

Do you have a question about the Torah?

Shalom.

Jacob
I'm interested in an answer to the question I posed to you.

Stuart

Jacob
July 19th, 2017, 10:20 PM
I'm interested in an answer to the question I posed to you.

Stuart
Shalom.

I accept your scripture but not the way that you are using it.

What do you mean by the New Testament?

Shalom.

Jacob

Stuu
July 19th, 2017, 10:22 PM
Shalom.

I accept your scripture but not the way that you are using it.

What do you mean by the New Testament?

Shalom.

Jacob
What is wrong with my use of scripture?

What do you mean, what do you mean by the New Testament??

Stuart

Jacob
July 19th, 2017, 10:28 PM
What is wrong with my use of scripture?

What do you mean, what do you mean by the New Testament??

Stuart
Shalom.

You are not using the scripture that you provided references for for its intended purpose.

Often people refer to Matthew through Revelation as the New Testament. I do not.

Shalom.

Jacob

Stuu
July 19th, 2017, 10:31 PM
Shalom.

You are not using the scripture that you provided references for for its intended purpose.
And what is the 'intended purpose' of scripture?


Often people refer to Matthew through Revelation as the New Testament. I do not.
I can think of some other names for it too...

Now we have dealt with the trivial question of what to call it, do you have an answer to my question?

Stuart

Jacob
July 19th, 2017, 10:36 PM
And what is the 'intended purpose' of scripture?


I can think of some other names for it too...

Now we have dealt with the trivial question of what to call it, do you have an answer to my question?

Stuart
Shalom.

The Bible is The Word of God. It is God's Word to us. It comes to us from God.

As a Jew I do not have a worldview. When I was a Christian I learned about Christ and Christianity but also the Christian Worldview.

As a Jew, of Israel, as a proselyte and a convert to Judaism and Israel, I read, study, observe, keep, and teach the Torah. I accept the TaNaKh and Matthew through Revelation.

What is the question that you are asking?

Shalom.

Jacob

JTP75
July 20th, 2017, 06:37 AM
The plain fact is, Peterson didn't change his mind...he's just now willing to say it publicly. He always thought same sex marriage was "ok".

JTP75
July 20th, 2017, 06:47 AM
So it's OK for people in the christian club to pass nasty judgement on young gay people and drive them to suicide, as long as the others in the club are pleased.

Not sure what kind of god requires that of its followers.

See what your hobby has done to your humanity? There are people who can help with that kind of destructive addiction.

Stuart

1. If the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin, then yes, a Christian is to speak out against the sin.

2. If the Bible says that alcoholism is a sin, then yes, a Christian is to speak out against the sin.

3. If the Bible says that murder is a a sin, then yes, a a Christian is to speak out against the sin.

In all these cases, and many more, the Christian is to present the option of an alternate, specifically, a life change, like we all need (redemption, justification, sanctification). I hate the sin, not the sinner, for I too am a sinner.

I don't get why you are singling out homosexuality in your argument. Your argument can be applied to ALL sins, yet not all these other "sinners" are committing suicide over it.....why not?

Stuu
July 20th, 2017, 07:01 AM
1. If the Bible says that homosexuality is a sin, then yes, a Christian is to speak out against the sin.

2. If the Bible says that alcoholism is a sin, then yes, a Christian is to speak out against the sin.

3. If the Bible says that murder is a a sin, then yes, a a Christian is to speak out against the sin.

In all these cases, and many more, the Christian is to present the option of an alternate, specifically, a life change, like we all need (redemption, justification, sanctification). I hate the sin, not the sinner, for I too am a sinner.
I am in favour of free speech, and against censorship. So you can make comments and call people names and be ignored for it, which is rightly what usually happens. However, there are people vulnerable to particular rants from the christian club rule book. No one cares that you think alcoholism is a 'sin' or murder is. Murder has been ethically wrong since long before Judeo-christianity was invented. But some young people who are still finding their sexuality find it difficult enough to deal with prejudice without you wading in. What if my club rules said that obsessive compulsive disorder was a sin? You should rightly tell me not to put further pressure on vulnerable people.

If variations of sexuality that don't meet your club's standards were actually doing harm to humanity, then you could have a point. But they don't, and so you don't. In my country, many religious busy-bodies opposed the decriminalisation of homosexual acts in 1986. Last year was the 30th anniversary of the passing of that law and there were some of those same religious people openly admitting that the grave consequences they foretold had actually not come to pass, and there had only been good come from it. So I don't know what your particular fears are, but I suspect they are much less real than those of a young gay person in the closet and frightened to death of coming out.

By the way, speak for yourself and members of your club when it comes to who is in 'need' of your club rituals that you call redemption, justification, and sanctification. I certainly don't need those.


I don't get why you are singling out homosexuality in your argument. Your argument can be applied to ALL sins, yet not all these other "sinners" are committing suicide over it.....why not?
I refer you to the title of the thread and the OP.

Stuart

Stuu
July 20th, 2017, 07:16 AM
Shalom.

The Bible is The Word of God. It is God's Word to us. It comes to us from God.

As a Jew I do not have a worldview. When I was a Christian I learned about Christ and Christianity but also the Christian Worldview.

As a Jew, of Israel, as a proselyte and a convert to Judaism and Israel, I read, study, observe, keep, and teach the Torah. I accept the TaNaKh and Matthew through Revelation.

What is the question that you are asking?

Shalom.

Jacob
I fear you would have to think too hard were I to repeat it.

Stuart

Jacob
July 20th, 2017, 10:13 AM
I fear you would have to think too hard were I to repeat it.

Stuart
Shalom.

Okay.

Shalom.

Jacob

shopkinslpskids
July 20th, 2017, 12:24 PM
I am in favour of free speech, and against censorship. So you can make comments and call people names and be ignored for it, which is rightly what usually happens. However, there are people vulnerable to particular rants from the christian club rule book. No one cares that you think alcoholism is a 'sin' or murder is. Murder has been ethically wrong since long before Judeo-christianity was invented. But some young people who are still finding their sexuality find it difficult enough to deal with prejudice without you wading in. What if my club rules said that obsessive compulsive disorder was a sin? You should rightly tell me not to put further pressure on vulnerable people.

If variations of sexuality that don't meet your club's standards were actually doing harm to humanity, then you could have a point. But they don't, and so you don't. In my country, many religious busy-bodies opposed the decriminalisation of homosexual acts in 1986. Last year was the 30th anniversary of the passing of that law and there were some of those same religious people openly admitting that the grave consequences they foretold had actually not come to pass, and there had only been good come from it. So I don't know what your particular fears are, but I suspect they are much less real than those of a young gay person in the closet and frightened to death of coming out.

By the way, speak for yourself and members of your club when it comes to who is in 'need' of your club rituals that you call redemption, justification, and sanctification. I certainly don't need those.


I refer you to the title of the thread and the OP.

StuartYeah, when you said murder existed before judeo-christianity was invented...lost all credibility.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Stuu
July 20th, 2017, 02:44 PM
Yeah, when you said murder existed before judeo-christianity was invented...lost all credibility.
Humans murdering other humans dates back to whenever there were first humans. That is a minimum of 185,000 years ago, but you could make arguments for up to millions of years ago, depending on what species you would like to consider 'human'.

Judaism is about 3000 years old, although you could possibly push its origins back to 5000 years ago, into the Cannanite polytheistic religion, influenced by Egyptian and Mesopotamian religions. And, obviously, christianity was invented about 2000 years ago.

So murder definitely existed before the invention of Judeo-christianity, which has existed only for the last 3% of 'human' history.

Your turn.

Stuart

Stuu
July 21st, 2017, 07:00 PM
US university rejects $3m donation from Christian organisation that demanded it shut down LGBT student group (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-university-rejects-3-million-dollars-christian-organisation-shut-down-lgbt-student-group-stamford-a7850791.html)

Alabama Baptist Convention says it is ‘saddened’ the college ‘voted to affirm the recognition of a student group that identifies with values contrary to biblical teachings on sexuality’
Good to see a baptist institution standing up for freedom of association and expression.

Stuart

ok doser
July 21st, 2017, 08:04 PM
Humans murdering other humans dates back to whenever there were first humans. That is a minimum of 185,000 years ago, but you could make arguments for up to millions of years ago, depending on what species you would like to consider 'human'.

Judaism is about 3000 years old, although you could possibly push its origins back to 5000 years ago, into the Cannanite polytheistic religion, influenced by Egyptian and Mesopotamian religions. And, obviously, christianity was invented about 2000 years ago.

So murder definitely existed before the invention of Judeo-christianity, which has existed only for the last 3% of 'human' history.

Your turn.

Stuart

We have the names of the first murderer and the first victim

What are the names of the murderer and the victim in your 185000 year old fantasy?

Stuu
July 21st, 2017, 08:26 PM
We have the names of the first murderer and the first victim

What are the names of the murderer and the victim in your 185000 year old fantasy?
I have the location. What is the location in your fantasy?

Stuart

ok doser
July 21st, 2017, 08:36 PM
So, no names?

patrick jane
July 21st, 2017, 08:44 PM
Alabama Baptist Convention says it is ‘saddened’ the college ‘voted to affirm the recognition of a student group that identifies with values contrary to biblical teachings on sexuality
Good to see a baptist institution standing up for freedom of association sodomy and expression molestation.

StuartSo it seems

Nihilo
July 21st, 2017, 09:01 PM
Your strategy is much better than Lon's (sorry Lon, but it is). Just stick with the same platitude and repeat it until the person at whom it is aimed starts to double-guess and wonder if actually there might be something in it.You should wonder if actually you don't know what a platitude actually is, because it's disturbing how frequently you've incorrectly labeled the RESURRECTION platitudinal.

"He is risen" (Mt28:6KJV Mk16:6KJV Lk24:6KJV) is not, a platitude. Just by definition, this isn't an argument I'm making, I'm saying you're misusing the word platitude. Check your dictionary.

Of course there isn't.You can't just dismiss the RESURRECTION by saying something like "of course [not]." It's way, way too important a thing---whether fiction or nonfiction---to do that. You have to address it.

If you mean to claim that ancient Jews that were successfully executed by the Romans can get up and walk, then your belief of that is a major achievement by the meme that has hijacked your mind. How do you get out of that one? It would be a significant volte-face, as they say en France.

Not sure what to suggest. Maybe just honesty with those who might have also committed to the idea. Just say, you know, had a rethink and clearly dead Jews don't just up and walk. You might lose some friends, or they might just say, yeah I was wondering about that too.

StuartWhat's the downside, in considering my condition inoperable? You can't just say, "Because it's a meme," you have to show where the meme is harmful to me or to anybody else, and also it would help if you could show also, that it does me no good, and by analogy to financial opportunity cost, that the meme is keeping me from something better, and hopefully something better by a wide margin.

And, to put it another way, what's so great about thinking the Good News (Mt28:6KJV Mk16:6KJV Lk24:6KJV) is fiction, as compared to thinking that it is nonfiction?

Stuu
July 22nd, 2017, 02:23 AM
So it seems
No doubt there will be some sodomy involved. But who is molesting whom?

Stuart

Stuu
July 22nd, 2017, 02:57 AM
You should wonder if actually you don't know what a platitude actually is, because it's disturbing how frequently you've incorrectly labeled the RESURRECTION platitudinal.
I think I've got the meaning of platitude more right this time than I usually do.
platitude platɪtjuːd/ noun
a remark or statement, especially one with a moral content, that has been used too often to be interesting or thoughtful.
Your use of 'He is risen' was repeated; you seem to think it has moral content; but you had used it so often that it had ceased to be thoughtful or interesting. You could have been more interested if it wasn't just a bald assertion, and you could have been more thoughtful by explaining how it applied to the topic at hand.

You can't just dismiss the RESURRECTION by saying something like "of course [not]." It's way, way too important a thing---whether fiction or nonfiction---to do that. You have to address it.
Coming back from the dead is not that interesting if you look at the whole of the Judeo-christian scriptures. It is commonplace. Saul of Tarsus claimed in Acts 26:23 and 1 Corinthians 15:20 that Jesus was the first to be resurrected but a witch raised Samuel from the dead in 1 Samuel 28:11, 14; Elijah raised a boy from the dead in 1 Kings 17:21-22; Elisha brough a dead boy to life in 2 Kings 4:32-35; and repeated the feat with a man's body in 2 Kings 13:21; Moses and Elijah had a conversation with Jesus after being raised from the dead on different occasions in Luke 9:30; then Jesus had a go in Matthew 9:23-25, Luke 7:12-15, and with Lazarus in John 11:43. To cap off all that, many bodies of the saints arose when Jesus died, as alleged in Matthew 9:50-53. So what is particularly special about Jesus's resurrection?


What's the downside, in considering my condition inoperable? You can't just say, "Because it's a meme," you have to show where the meme is harmful to me or to anybody else, and also it would help if you could show also, that it does me no good, and by analogy to financial opportunity cost, that the meme is keeping me from something better, and hopefully something better by a wide margin.
If you don't care about whether any of it is true, which has to be the first question, then all there is left I suppose is the bigotry, hatred, attempts to gain influence over the private affairs of non-christians, claims by churches for tax exemptions to finance their special club activities, attempts at lying to children about natural history and cosmology... see many other examples in my other many posts on the topic. Christianity has been one of the biggest cons in all human history.

And, to put it another way, what's so great about thinking the Good News (Mt28:6KJV Mk16:6KJV Lk24:6KJV) is fiction, as compared to thinking that it is nonfiction?
Because it is important to me what can reasonably be said to be true. It is not reasonable to claim that people walk again after they are dead. Is that important to you, or do you not mind that the meme might be lying to you as part of its own Darwinian survival and reproduction strategy? There are several parasites that influence the working of the host's brain to the parasite's advantage, and memes are ideas that do pretty much the same thing.

Stuart

Angel4Truth
July 22nd, 2017, 02:15 PM
Like Einstein (and there isn't a great deal about me that is like Einstein), I don't like the term atheist either. It defines me in terms of other people's delusions.

Stuart

Einstein believed in intelligent design.

Angel4Truth
July 22nd, 2017, 02:16 PM
Don't forget about the baby eating and voodoo dolls.

I think one day I will be dead and it will be all over at that point, and I think you secretly know that is true too. It's the least ridiculous of the suggested options.

Stuart

The fact that you can see creation, and deny intelligence, shows that you are the one with the ridiculous belief.

Angel4Truth
July 22nd, 2017, 02:18 PM
It's really about love, isn't it? Here are two cases:

1. Two young people, of the same gender, fall in love. They are devoted to the well-being of one another and care for one another through good times and bad.

2. A ruling power makes a rule that everyone has to love it, and if they don't then they will be punished for a very long time.

Which strikes you as the more ethical situation?

Stuart

Neither, which is more ethical to you?

1)The fact there is a hell and some people are "loving" you into it or

2)Warning you that there is and that there is a way to avoid it?

Angel4Truth
July 22nd, 2017, 02:20 PM
Awww, stuuu


You don't get it



You're already dead


That may be true. But you should justify it to the brethren here, otherwise how is it not a death threat?

Stuart

How is it a death threat to tell you that you are dead inside already?

Angel4Truth
July 22nd, 2017, 02:23 PM
US university rejects $3m donation from Christian organisation that demanded it shut down LGBT student group (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-university-rejects-3-million-dollars-christian-organisation-shut-down-lgbt-student-group-stamford-a7850791.html)

Alabama Baptist Convention says it is ‘saddened’ the college ‘voted to affirm the recognition of a student group that identifies with values contrary to biblical teachings on sexuality’
Good to see a baptist institution standing up for freedom of association and expression.

Stuart

Then you think prayers and an invitation to receive Christ should be offered at atheist meetings?

Stuu
July 22nd, 2017, 04:59 PM
Einstein believed in intelligent design.
The Intelligent Design movement started in the early 1980s, thirty years after Einstein's death.

I recommend reading much more if you really want to know what Einstein believed. And be prepared, if you do, for your way of believing to be called 'naive and childlike' by him. And be prepared to completely misunderstand what he said and wrote on religion, because most people do. Try reading Spinoza to get some idea of Einsteins god as metaphor for the comprehensibility and order in the universe. It's not a personal god that you can ask where you left your car keys. It's a god that isn't really there. Good luck.

Although I'm not sure why you bring up Einstein. What does he have to do with it?

Stuart

Angel4Truth
July 22nd, 2017, 05:03 PM
The Intelligent Design movement started in the early 1980s, thirty years after Einstein's death.

I recommend reading much more if you really want to know what Einstein believed. And be prepared, if you do, for your way of believing to be called 'naive and childlike' by him.

Although I'm not sure why you bring up Einstein. What does he have to do with it?

Stuart

You brought him up, i responded to what you said. Check this on what he believed about the One greater than he:

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/01/16/Einstein-and-Intelligent-Design.aspx#Article

I do agree, hes smarter than you and doesnt deny a Creator.

Stuu
July 22nd, 2017, 05:08 PM
The fact that you can see creation, and deny intelligence, shows that you are the one with the ridiculous belief.
You only see creation if you go looking for something that you believe was created. But if you see intelligence, have you ever asked yourself where the intelligence came from, how it came to be? I'd suggest you haven't. So you might 'believe in' an eternal god (no idea what that means) that creates intelligent things. Well, how does a god create intelligence? Where did the intelligence come from in the first place to do the creating? There is an answer to that, and it's called mutation and natural selection, and it completely explains how intelligence comes into being, and if your god exists then the best explaination for the intelligence of that god is also some process of evolution by natural selection.

I think the problem with your post mainly is that you are afraid of asking any of these kinds of questions, so whatever the right answer is I must reject your approach as fearful. Why would you worship something that makes you fearful? Because you fear what it will do to you? And all you would have done is used the brain you think this god gave you to use.

Christianity: the club for people who don't mind really not knowing.

Stuart

Stuu
July 22nd, 2017, 05:10 PM
Neither, which is more ethical to you?

1)The fact there is a hell and some people are "loving" you into it or

2)Warning you that there is and that there is a way to avoid it?
You really do live in deep fear, don't you.

Stuart

Angel4Truth
July 22nd, 2017, 05:11 PM
You only see creation if you go looking for something that you believe was created.

You dont believe the world and everything in it was created?

Angel4Truth
July 22nd, 2017, 05:12 PM
You really do live in deep fear, don't you.

Stuart

No. Perfect love casts out fear. Care to take a crack at what ive asked you now?

Stuu
July 22nd, 2017, 05:14 PM
How is it a death threat to tell you that you are dead inside already?
If someone says to you 'You're dead already', especially if it's in a New York accent, then why would you not suspect it of being a death threat?

Well, as it happens I don't think it means anything at all, and the person who wrote it has failed to convince me that it is anything real.

Stuart

Angel4Truth
July 22nd, 2017, 05:16 PM
If someone says to you 'You're dead already', especially if it's in a New York accent, then why would you not suspect it of being a death threat?

Well, as it happens I don't think it means anything at all, and the person who wrote it has failed to convince me that it is anything real.

Stuart



Then it was completely stupid to say that, right?

Learn something:

Ephesians 2:2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

You being without Christ, are already dead.

Stuu
July 22nd, 2017, 05:16 PM
Then you think prayers and an invitation to receive Christ should be offered at atheist meetings?
Er, not sure how that follows.

Stuart

Angel4Truth
July 22nd, 2017, 05:19 PM
Er, not sure how that follows.

Stuart

Think about what you said, then what i said, it might come to you.

Stuu
July 22nd, 2017, 05:53 PM
Then it was completely stupid to say that, right?
No, because in my country it is illegal to make a death threat, and I think it is the same where you are.


Learn something:

Ephesians 2:2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.

You being without Christ, are already dead.
So which of the several 'deaths' in christianity are we talking about now? The one that happens to us all, or some other fantasy death that is all about a vengeful god and your fear of it?

Stuart

Stuu
July 22nd, 2017, 05:57 PM
Think about what you said, then what i said, it might come to you.
I have, and it hasn't.

Stuart

Nihilo
July 22nd, 2017, 09:19 PM
I think I've got the meaning of platitude more right this time than I usually do.
platitude platɪtjuːd/ noun
a remark or statement, especially one with a moral content, that has been used too often to be interesting or thoughtful.You're too bookish. This is one of those words, like many others, where its dictionary or lexical definition could really use multiple examples to assist in fully comprehending the word. Defining platitude ostensively would be better for you than this dictionary definition. Try Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platitude) e.g.; there are some examples in there.

Your use of 'He is risen' was repeated; you seem to think it has moral content:idunno: I'm sure there's "moral content" somewhere in the Good News, but . . . frankly, who cares? He is risen; the RESURRECTION is either fiction or nonfiction; and if the RESURRECTION is nonfiction, then, yes, of course, there's a lot of your-word content, in there. All sorts of content, to be sure . . . . But that's not . . . the point; the point is He is risen, the RESURRECTION is its own point. It's the Gospel. You call it a meme---I think I call it the Cure; not a disease.

; but you had used it so often that it had ceased to be thoughtful or interesting.It's impossible for the Gospel that He is risen, to cease to be thoughtful, interesting, and a wide variety of other very wonderful things.

For us who believe the Gospel.

You could have been more interested if it wasn't just a bald assertion, and you could have been more thoughtful by explaining how it applied to the topic at hand.Oh. Well I said my piece on that. Don't listen to Protestant teachers, in matters of faith and morals.

Coming back from the dead is not that interestingRight away, disagreed.

if you look at the whole of the Judeo-christian scriptures. It is commonplace. Saul of Tarsus claimed in Acts 26:23 and 1 Corinthians 15:20 that Jesus was the first to be resurrected but a witch raised Samuel from the dead in 1 Samuel 28:11, 14; Elijah raised a boy from the dead in 1 Kings 17:21-22; Elisha brough a dead boy to life in 2 Kings 4:32-35; and repeated the feat with a man's body in 2 Kings 13:21; Moses and Elijah had a conversation with Jesus after being raised from the dead on different occasions in Luke 9:30; then Jesus had a go in Matthew 9:23-25, Luke 7:12-15, and with Lazarus in John 11:43. To cap off all that, many bodies of the saints arose when Jesus died, as alleged in Matthew 9:50-53. So what is particularly special about Jesus's resurrection?General resurrection; we'll all rise, and we don't get our old bodies we get new bodies, and the Lord Jesus has already risen as the First to rise in the general resurrection, which happens at the future and unknown expiration date for the old earth and old heaven. But His RESURRECTION has already begun the general resurrection, that is why He is Firstborn from the dead, and the older Brother of us all, even those who lived and died before He was born to the Virgin. He was the First to participate in the, for the rest of us, future, general resurrection of the dead.

If you don't care about whether any of it is true, which has to be the first question, then all there is left I suppose is the bigotry, hatred, attempts to gain influence over the private affairs of non-christians, claims by churches for tax exemptions to finance their special club activities, attempts at lying to children about natural history and cosmology... see many other examples in my other many posts on the topic. Christianity has been one of the biggest cons in all human history.The Church is also the main reason that we now know how important it is to civilly recognize and protect our individual right to religious liberty, and to keep distinct our civil power from religion.

You've fallen for the Protestant or otherwise non-Catholic lie, that non-Catholics who teach in matters of faith and morals, teach things just as validly and legitimately the Church's One true Christian faith, as do Catholic churchmen who teach those doctrines that agree with all other Catholic bishops who are in communion with the successor of St. Peter, and as do all the popes. It's just not true. The Catholic Church's lineage plainly leads back to the actual Jesus Christ, and no other ecclesial community or non-Catholic Christian tradition traces back to Him. Nothing from the Reformation does, and neither do the Orthodox churches (there's only one Church!). So you are making a giant straw man fallacy in conflating what Protestants say with what the Christian Church actually does say in matters of faith and morals, which is only validly and legitimately taught in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Because it is important to me what can reasonably be said to be true. It is not reasonable to claim that people walk again after they are dead.What does that even mean? "It is not reasonable?" Don't you just mean, "I don't believe it happened?" Don't act like you're above all this Stuart. Nobody is above this.

Is that important to you, or do you not mind that the meme might be lying to you as part of its own Darwinian survival and reproduction strategy? There are several parasites that influence the working of the host's brain to the parasite's advantage, and memes are ideas that do pretty much the same thing.

StuartAnd soon you'll come out of the closet as someone who is against religious liberty, am I correct? Because that's where this idea of yours leads. And we already know what happens to the Church when she is persecuted by meme-like ideas like yours here, where a meme infects people and gets them to attack the Gospel and those of us who believe it, the one Christian Church. Martyrdoms. So it seems that if you're right, and the Gospel that He is risen, is a meme, that it's got you stalemated, if not outright bested. The harder you fight it, the stronger it becomes.

Stuu
July 22nd, 2017, 11:23 PM
You're too bookish. This is one of those words, like many others, where its dictionary or lexical definition could really use multiple examples to assist in fully comprehending the word. Defining platitude ostensively would be better for you than this dictionary definition.
And yet when it comes to all those words that have particular christian club significance in your scriptures, you are a stickler for correct definitions then, aren't you.


Try Wikipedia e.g.; there are some examples in there.
Yep, that sounds like it applies equally well to 'He is risen'.


He is risen; the RESURRECTION is either fiction or nonfiction; and if the RESURRECTION is nonfiction, then, yes, of course, there's a lot of your-word content, in there. All sorts of content, to be sure . . . . But that's not . . . the point; the point is He is risen, the RESURRECTION is its own point. It's the Gospel. You call it a meme---I think I call it the Cure; not a disease.
It's fiction. Half the christian people you talk to think it's fiction but they believe in the belief of it, because they think that is good, somehow. Not sure if they are likely to tell you that straight to your face, because they fear what would happen if they didn't pretend.


It's impossible for the Gospel that He is risen, to cease to be thoughtful, interesting, and a wide variety of other very wonderful things.
And very nasty things. But dull nasty things, like totalitarianism, including compulsory love on pain of burning in sulfur.


General resurrection; we'll all rise, and we don't get our old bodies we get new bodies, and the Lord Jesus has already risen as the First to rise in the general resurrection, which happens at the future and unknown expiration date for the old earth and old heaven. But His RESURRECTION has already begun the general resurrection, that is why He is Firstborn from the dead, and the older Brother of us all, even those who lived and died before He was born to the Virgin. He was the First to participate in the, for the rest of us, future, general resurrection of the dead.
I see, so it's science fiction that includes a kind of time travel. That's quite calvanist of you.



The Church is also the main reason that we now know how important it is to civilly recognize and protect our individual right to religious liberty, and to keep distinct our civil power from religion. You've fallen for the Protestant or otherwise non-Catholic lie, that non-Catholics who teach in matters of faith and morals, teach things just as validly and legitimately the Church's One true Christian faith, as do Catholic churchmen who teach those doctrines that agree with all other Catholic bishops who are in communion with the successor of St. Peter, and as do all the popes. It's just not true. The Catholic Church's lineage plainly leads back to the actual Jesus Christ, and no other ecclesial community or non-Catholic Christian tradition traces back to Him. Nothing from the Reformation does, and neither do the Orthodox churches (there's only one Church!). So you are making a giant straw man fallacy in conflating what Protestants say with what the Christian Church actually does say in matters of faith and morals, which is only validly and legitimately taught in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
It sounds like you have fallen for a few Catholic lies there. When the pope signs concordats with proper democratic countries (the so-called Holy See isn't a country, it's a political and criminal bolt-hole) in Europe, often at the quietly stated threat of excommunication for a Catholic leader, the financial advantage to the RCC isn't a great example of trying to 'keep distinct our civil power from religion'. Rather the reverse. When Franciscan monks were converting people to Catholicism at gunpoint under the wartime fascist dictatorship of Ante Pavelić in Croatia, it wasn't a great protection of others' 'individual right to religious liberty', was it. Your church has a monstrous history of wreaking abuse on humanity across the globe, so forgive me for being less than impressed by your hypocrisy.


What does that even mean? "It is not reasonable?" Don't you just mean, "I don't believe it happened?"
No, I mean it is unreasonable. It would be perverse to claim it true.


And soon you'll come out of the closet as someone who is against religious liberty, am I correct?
I am opposed to Catholic pharmacists telling vulnerable people that they are unwilling to provide the morning after pill, or contraception, or even supply the location of a pharmacy that will do its job properly, if that is what you mean. Those people should never have made it through professional training.

On the other hand, I believe in a secular society where anyone has freedom to believe what they like. I don't think that gives anyone the right to pull out their faith card and try to assert that it is the command of their invisible sky friend that a particular law is enacted. The common secular ground should be full of evidence-based arguments, for that is all we have in common across the population.


And we already know what happens to the Church when she is persecuted by meme-like ideas like yours here, where a meme infects people and gets them to attack the Gospel and those of us who believe it, the one Christian Church. Martyrdoms.
You can't wait for the next time a Catholic dies in the name of your faith, can you.


So it seems that if you're right, and the Gospel that He is risen, is a meme, that it's got you stalemated, if not outright bested. The harder you fight it, the stronger it becomes.
In my country, christianity is dying. The one sect that is still just maintaining its numbers is Catholicism, partly because we have relatively higher levels of immigration from less well-off countries where standards of education are lower and poverty is higher, and that is where Catholics tend to live more and more these days. The better-educated, richer countries tend to have people who see straight through the lies.

Stuart

Nihilo
July 22nd, 2017, 11:40 PM
And yet when it comes to all those words that have particular christian club significance in your scriptures, you are a stickler for correct definitions then, aren't you.


Yep, that sounds like it applies equally well to 'He is risen'.


It's fiction. Half the christian people you talk to think it's fiction but they believe in the belief of it, because they think that is good, somehow. Not sure if they are likely to tell you that straight to your face, because they fear what would happen if they didn't pretend.


And very nasty things. But dull nasty things, like totalitarianism, including compulsory love on pain of burning in sulfur.


I see, so it's science fiction that includes a kind of time travel. That's quite calvanist of you.



It sounds like you have fallen for a few Catholic lies there. When the pope signs concordats with proper democratic countries (the so-called Holy See isn't a country, it's a political and criminal bolt-hole) in Europe, often at the quietly stated threat of excommunication for a Catholic leader, the financial advantage to the RCC isn't a great example of trying to 'keep distinct our civil power from religion'. Rather the reverse. When Franciscan monks were converting people to Catholicism at gunpoint under the wartime fascist dictatorship of Ante Pavelić in Croatia, it wasn't a great protection of others' 'individual right to religious liberty', was it. Your church has a monstrous history of wreaking abuse on humanity across the globe, so forgive me for being less than impressed by your hypocrisy.


No, I mean it is unreasonable. It would be perverse to claim it true.


I am opposed to Catholic pharmacists telling vulnerable people that they are unwilling to provide the morning after pill, or contraception, or even supply the location of a pharmacy that will do its job properly, if that is what you mean. Those people should never have made it through professional training.

On the other hand, I believe in a secular society where anyone has freedom to believe what they like. I don't think that gives anyone the right to pull out their faith card and try to assert that it is the command of their invisible sky friend that a particular law is enacted. The common secular ground should be full of evidence-based arguments, for that is all we have in common across the population.


You can't wait for the next time a Catholic dies in the name of your faith, can you.


In my country, christianity is dying. The one sect that is still just maintaining its numbers is Catholicism, partly because we have relatively higher levels of immigration from less well-off countries where standards of education are lower and poverty is higher, and that is where Catholics tend to live more and more these days. The better-educated, richer countries tend to have people who see straight through the lies.

Stuart:e4e: We may have lost focus for a long, long time Stuart, but we can come back. The focus is the Gospel, and everything is connected to it, especially for us who believe that He is risen, but even for those who don't, because the Catholic Church and the Christian Church are just yawning and stretching ourselves after a long, long slumber. We've been playing Beta for long enough, can you feel that change in the wind? When the real Alpha starts to stir? The Church conquered everything for 1,000 years. Now, you've acknowledged that our numbers are probably around one billion, because you believe that half of us don't believe in the RESURRECTION. Could be, who knows? A billion people is however a decent sized force, and when we become refocused, there will be nothing left once we're done.

I reiterate: The RESURRECTION is its own point. Everything you mentioned in this response has been running down rabbit trails. The only valid conclusions you can reach once believing the Gospel are Catholic conclusions. It doesn't necessarily coincide with being Catholic. I'm not Catholic, for instance.

Stuu
July 23rd, 2017, 12:37 AM
:e4e: We may have lost focus for a long, long time Stuart, but we can come back. The focus is the Gospel, and everything is connected to it, especially for us who believe that He is risen, but even for those who don't, because the Catholic Church and the Christian Church are just yawning and stretching ourselves after a long, long slumber. We've been playing Beta for long enough, can you feel that change in the wind? When the real Alpha starts to stir? The Church conquered everything for 1,000 years. Now, you've acknowledged that our numbers are probably around one billion,
Er, when did I do that?


because you believe that half of us don't believe in the RESURRECTION. Could be, who knows? A billion people is however a decent sized force, and when we become refocused, there will be nothing left once we're done.
What was that about believing in religious liberty? Sounds like you believe in your own religious liberty.


I reiterate
I know. Now you have made 'resurrection' into a platitude, alongside 'He is risen'.


Everything you mentioned in this response has been running down rabbit trails.
So we are only going to take seriously what you have to say.


The only valid conclusions you can reach once believing the Gospel are Catholic conclusions. It doesn't necessarily coincide with being Catholic. I'm not Catholic, for instance.
Well the Catholic church claims you as a Catholic, whether you like it or not. And the gospels are wrong about humans walking again after dying, all the different times it is recorded as happening.

Stuart

Nihilo
July 23rd, 2017, 12:58 AM
Er, when did I do that?When you said that half of Christians don't believe that He is risen.

What was that about believing in religious liberty? Sounds like you believe in your own religious liberty.Religious liberty paves our way.

I know. Now you have made 'resurrection' into a platitude, alongside 'He is risen'.Calling things "platitude" is a platitude.

So we are only going to take seriously what you have to say.I'm taking you seriously; I'm saying you're veering regularly off topic is all.

Well the Catholic church claims you as a Catholic, whether you like it or not.I know.

I like it.

And the gospels are wrong about humans walking again after dying, all the different times it is recorded as happening.

Stuart:idunno: What were you saying about "bald assertions," earlier?

Stuu
July 23rd, 2017, 05:13 AM
When you said that half of Christians don't believe that He is risen.
That's not what I wrote. But never mind. There is a decent percentage of christians who don't literally believe that any ancient Jewish preacher was executed by the Romans then walked around afterwards. I know some personally. But nevertheless they don't shy away from the label 'christian'. I guess that is their problem, not mine. My point was mainly that a certain percentage of christians really believe the nonsense proposition, and a further decent percentage believe in the belief itself, but don't do the actual believing themselves. A further section will say it doesn't matter whether people believe it or not. Then there are all the atheist priests and ministers who have come to realise that none of it is true but are stuck in a dead-end career and sometimes need help to escape. 13% of vicars in England are atheists, according to a survey within the past few years. But that's another discussion.


Religious liberty paves our way.
...to fascism.


What were you saying about "bald assertions," earlier?
Bald assertion is all christianity has. There is no good reason to believe any of it is true, and many good reasons to believe it is all made up.

Stuart

Nihilo
July 23rd, 2017, 09:55 AM
That's not what I wrote. But never mind. There is a decent percentage of christians who don't literally believe that any ancient Jewish preacher was executed by the Romans then walked around afterwards. I know some personally. But nevertheless they don't shy away from the label 'christian'. I guess that is their problem, not mine. My point was mainly that a certain percentage of christians really believe the nonsense proposition, and a further decent percentage believe in the belief itself, but don't do the actual believing themselves. A further section will say it doesn't matter whether people believe it or not. Then there are all the atheist priests and ministers who have come to realise that none of it is true but are stuck in a dead-end career and sometimes need help to escape. 13% of vicars in England are atheists, according to a survey within the past few years. But that's another discussion.Which of these sections most resemble the Apostles and the first generation of Church bishops, in your opinion? Or is there another section perhaps? Maybe an extinct section of the faith? Maybe one that's coming back?

...to fascism.LOL. Yes, Stuart, the freedom of religion leads to fascism. :chuckle:

Bald assertion is all christianity has. There is no good reason to believe any of it is true, and many good reasons to believe it is all made up.

StuartAmong those many good reasons, are that 14 men in the first century went willingly to their torture and death, rather than simply say that the RESURRECTION "is all made up." Right? :rolleyes: Or is that not one of the many good reasons?

Interplanner
July 23rd, 2017, 10:20 AM
Stuu,
we're off the topic of the OP here, but I will take a moment to show you a basic problem with the denials of Jesus, way before the Resurrection.

In one of his first significant healing miracles he makes a challenge on either 'side' of reality--the two sides being this world or Nature and the other or God's actions. He says 'So that you may see that (I) the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins' (he turned to the paralytic), 'I tell you get up and walk.'
And he did.

You may doubt the action here, doubt that that actually took place. However, please notice something else between the lines from this point on: if this had not taken place, there is no story. That's right. The whole thing disappears into nonsense and irrationality. There is no conflict that captures us and must be resolved.

Here is how: the claim that he was the Messianic figure (Daniel's Son of Man) has just collapsed. If that collapses, there is no build up of opposition, because there is nothing to oppose.

In other words, the best proof possible that this healing took place is the counter-actions by the leaders of Judaism: this person had to be stopped by any means possible.

The New Testament is this way every which way you look. The person who preached and spread it the most was in the best place to deny the resurrection--temple police. He (Paul) had every Judaistic reason to stop the thing, but he checked out the account that Christ appeared to about 500 at one time, and there was nothing for it. Not to mention all the 'lesser' appearances, I Cor 15. This is not a person with no dog in the fight saying he heard casually these accounts; this is a person given temple authority documentation to imprison anyone who believed the account and Gospel, and finding there is no stopping the evidence.

If you write a script, you have to have a 'conflict.' That is what interests people, that is what makes it sell, that is what drives it on as a compelling story once you have laid the book down. The drive of the Gospels is that the healings and predictions and resurrection did take place AND HAVE A CREDIBLE ANTAGONIST(s) who had every resource possible to shut it down and could not. Because there is no stopping evidence.

Stuu
July 24th, 2017, 03:09 AM
Which of these sections most resemble the Apostles and the first generation of Church bishops, in your opinion? Or is there another section perhaps? Maybe an extinct section of the faith? Maybe one that's coming back?
Are you aware of the historical criticisms of the RCC's position on the glorious lineage from Simon Peter? I recommend learning the opposition's points.


LOL. Yes, Stuart, the freedom of religion leads to fascism.
You really need to read the Wikipedia article on the Vatican II declaration on religious freedom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dignitatis_humanae#Summary_of_the_declaration) before you mock too much. What it calls for is the freedom for Catholics to practice according to doctrine, ideally under a Catholic theocracy.

Then read for yourself about the history of the Vatican's involvement with politics in the "Catholic countries" of Europe, and especially the way they colluded with the Fascist dictators Franco in Spain, Salazar in Portugal, the Ustasa regime of Pavelic in Croatia, Mussolini in Italy (for a time), and the Rexist movement in Belgium.

Catholic theocracy is Fascism. They are essentially the same thing.


Among those many good reasons, are that 14 men in the first century went willingly to their torture and death, rather than simply say that the RESURRECTION "is all made up." Right? Or is that not one of the many good reasons?
Once again, I recommend you read the scholars (the ones who know more than you or I about history) on the historicity of the gospel stories. There seems to be agreement to some extent that Jesus was baptised, and later executed by the Romans. So they do on the whole go with the notion that Jesus was a real human. But that's about it. The other 13 are of dubious reliability. So, to answer your point, if we are talking about the fable of the gospels concerning those events, then sure, your story has martyrs. Of course it would. If we are talking about what actually happened regarding the life of Jesus in ancient Palestine, then I don't know what happened and actually on the evidence we have, no one is justified in claiming to know.

Stuart