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Robert Pate
July 8th, 2017, 07:56 AM
People that have embraced a holiness theology have little to no use for the Gospel and justification by faith. Many are Paul haters because this is what Paul taught. Paul plainly taught that all men are sinners and are justified by faith apart from works and obedience to the law or the commandments of Jesus.

"As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23.

"Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief" 1 Timothy 1:15

Many of the prophets and patriarch's confessed that they were unworthy sinners. Isaiah wrote,

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all of our righteousness is as filthy rags, Isaiah 64:6.

In spite of all of these scriptures the holiness people still maintain that they can please God and keep the commandments of Jesus. Many of the holiness people are Pentecostals, while others are Nazarenes or Catholics. Regardless they are all rejecters of the Gospel and justification by faith. Then the question arises, can one reject the Gospel and justification by faith and still be saved? I think not. What they are, are counterfeits. They act like Christians they talk like Christians, but they do not posses the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of truth, John 16:13.

One of the works of the Holy Spirit is to convict the believer that he is a sinner, Romans 3:19. The whole world stands guilty before God's Holy Law. Both believers and unbelievers. This is why we need to be saved and justified by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Salvation is totally and completely outside of us and is only found in the doing and the dying of Jesus.

In the Gospel, Jesus clothes himself in our humanity and becomes one with us, but not one of us. In our name and on our behalf Jesus offers to God the Father a life of perfect obedience according to his holy law. He does this for our justification. We are justified because Jesus fulfilled the law for us. We can't fulfill it because we are sinners, saved sinners. That was not enough, something had to be done about our sins and the sins of the whole world. This is why,

"He has made him to be sins for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" 2 Corinthians 5:23.

In Jesus Christ we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30. God now sees us as complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. We who are saved have been saved by the doing and the dying of Jesus and have no confidence in our flesh, Philippians 3:3.

jsanford108
July 8th, 2017, 10:06 AM
What Catholic's actually teach and believe:

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1996:

Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

jsanford108
July 8th, 2017, 10:07 AM
Also, if works mean nothing, then why did God/Christ ever give us commandments? That would be superfluous to faith, if works merit nothing.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

jamie
July 8th, 2017, 10:36 AM
Also, if works mean nothing, then why did God/Christ ever give us commandments? That would be superfluous to faith, if works merit nothing.


:thumb: Jesus tells his church repeatedly in Revelation 2 & 3 that he knows our works and offers advice.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 8th, 2017, 10:42 AM
People that have embraced a holiness theology have little to no use for the Gospel and justification by faith. Many are Paul haters because this is what Paul taught. Paul plainly taught that all men are sinners and are justified by faith apart from works and obedience to the law or the commandments of Jesus.


Hey Robert,

Much of what you post is true. But it is almost always mixed with untruths because you tend to use scripture selectively instead of looking at the whole of scripture and getting the whole picture.

For example:


"As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

Umm....except for John the Baptist's parents (at least), right?:

"And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless." (Luke 1:6 KJV)


"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23.

And yet there are probably thousands of people who are born into this world, and then die without ever having committed an actual sin. Because they died before they were even capable of committing an actual sin. Little babies and severely handicapped people, for example.


"Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief" 1 Timothy 1:15

Amen.


Many of the prophets and patriarch's confessed that they were unworthy sinners. Isaiah wrote,

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all of our righteousness is as filthy rags, Isaiah 64:6.


And yet some in the O.T. were righteous...

"By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh." (Hebrews 11:4 KJV)

...even according to Jesus Himself:

"That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar." (Matthew 23:35)


In spite of all of these scriptures the holiness people still maintain that they can please God and keep the commandments of Jesus.

In spite of a few carefully selected verses? There is a bigger picture, Robert. Which includes other verses that speak to the topic. They need to be considered as well.

As far as keeping the commandments of Jesus, didn't He Himself say:

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." (Matthew 28:19-20)

Observing those things that Jesus commanded is probably what you would disparagingly refer to as "religious acts."


Many of the holiness people are Pentecostals, while others are Nazarenes or Catholics. Regardless they are all rejecters of the Gospel and justification by faith. Then the question arises, can one reject the Gospel and justification by faith and still be saved? I think not. What they are, are counterfeits. They act like Christians they talk like Christians, but they do not posses the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of truth, John 16:13.

One of the works of the Holy Spirit is to convict the believer that he is a sinner, Romans 3:19. The whole world stands guilty before God's Holy Law. Both believers and unbelievers. This is why we need to be saved and justified by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Salvation is totally and completely outside of us and is only found in the doing and the dying of Jesus.

In the Gospel, Jesus clothes himself in our humanity and becomes one with us, but not one of us. In our name and on our behalf Jesus offers to God the Father a life of perfect obedience according to his holy law. He does this for our justification. We are justified because Jesus fulfilled the law for us. We can't fulfill it because we are sinners, saved sinners. That was not enough, something had to be done about our sins and the sins of the whole world. This is why,

"He has made him to be sins for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" 2 Corinthians 5:23.

In Jesus Christ we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30. God now sees us as complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. We who are saved have been saved by the doing and the dying of Jesus and have no confidence in our flesh, Philippians 3:3.

I'm quite certain that most Pentecostals, Nazarenes, Catholics, and others are well aware of their sinfulness and that salvation comes to us through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Peace.

Robert Pate
July 8th, 2017, 11:38 AM
There are two kinds of righteousness. There is the righteousness of men and then there is the righteousness of God. Religious people posses the righteousness of men. But no one posses the righteousness of God, except Jesus Christ. So, when Paul says that "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10. He meant it.

Robert Pate
July 8th, 2017, 11:43 AM
What Catholic's actually teach and believe:

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 1996:

Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

No one is a partaker of the divine nature of God, except Jesus Christ. You don't believe what the Bible says about the nature of man.

daqq
July 8th, 2017, 12:16 PM
No one is a partaker of the divine nature of God, except Jesus Christ. You don't believe what the Bible says about the nature of man.

2 Peter 1:2-11 ASV
2 Grace to you and peace be multiplied in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
3 seeing that his divine power hath granted unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that called us by his own glory and virtue;
4 whereby he hath granted unto us his precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world by lust.
5 Yea, and for this very cause adding on your part all diligence, in your faith supply virtue; and in your virtue knowledge;
6 and in your knowledge self-control; and in your self-control patience; and in your patience godliness;
7 and in your godliness brotherly kindness; and in your brotherly kindness love.
8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to be not idle nor unfruitful unto the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he that lacketh these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins.
10 Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble:
11 for thus shall be richly supplied unto you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Elohim has granted unto us all things that pertain to life and godliness through the knowledge of him that called us. We are admonished in the above passage to add onto it from our own part all diligence, and in our faith we are admonished to supply virtue; and in our virtue knowledge; and in our knowledge self-control; and in our self-control patience; and in our patience godliness; and in our godliness brotherly kindness; and in our brotherly kindness love. For if we have these things, and they abound, they cause us not to be idle nor unfruitful toward the knowledge of our Master the Messiah: and after saying these things the passage states that the one who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten the cleansing from old sins. Therefore, because of these things, we are admonished to give all the more diligence to make our calling and election sure: for if we do these things, we shall never stumble, for in this manner a way of entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Master and Savior shall be richly supplied to us. This passage moreover states that we may become partakers of the divine nature through the things mentioned in the beginning of the passage, (including receiving the promises and escaping the corruption that is in the world by way of lust). And if one says these things do not apply to himself or herself because of the name of the author? We know that is nothing more than an excuse used by dividers of the brethren: and everyone reaps what they sow. :)

jsanford108
July 8th, 2017, 12:22 PM
No one is a partaker of the divine nature of God, except Jesus Christ. You don't believe what the Bible says about the nature of man.

All the Apostles, and Christ Himself, disagree with you. (Evidenced in Hebrews, Peter's Epistles, Colossians, the Gospels, Revelation, etc)

Bard_the_Bowman
July 8th, 2017, 12:43 PM
No one is a partaker of the divine nature of God, except Jesus Christ. You don't believe what the Bible says about the nature of man.

Dear Robert,

What you stated above is contrary to what the Bible says:

"Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:4 KJV)

Peace.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 8th, 2017, 01:00 PM
There are two kinds of righteousness. There is the righteousness of men and then there is the righteousness of God. Religious people posses the righteousness of men. But no one posses the righteousness of God, except Jesus Christ. So, when Paul says that "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10. He meant it.

You have a tendency to rail against religious people, Robert. According to you, they possess the righteousness of men.

Yet Abel, Zacharias, Elisabeth, Abraham etc. all possessed the righteousness of men and were commended for it.

Maybe it is time for you to stop bashing religious people?

Peace.

Robert Pate
July 8th, 2017, 01:30 PM
Dear Robert,

What you stated above is contrary to what the Bible says:

"Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:4 KJV)

Peace.


We have not received any of that yet. You are trying to bring into the now, that which is in the future.

What you are now is, "The chief of all sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15.

jamie
July 8th, 2017, 02:00 PM
Hey Robert,

Much of what you post is true. But it is almost always mixed with untruths because you tend to use scripture selectively instead of looking at the whole of scripture and getting the whole picture.

For example:

"As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one." (Romans 3:10)


Paul said, "As it is written."

Robert has been told many times where it is written, but he doesn't care.

So where is it written?

"The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'
They are corrupt, they have done abominable works,
There is none who does good." (Psalm 14:1)

"The fool has said in his heart, '“There is no God.'
They are corrupt and have done abominable iniquity,
There is none who does good." (Psalm 53:1)

Robert probably thinks Paul made that up. He will continue his misquote.

Robert is impervious to correction, he doesn't care about truth.

Robert Pate
July 8th, 2017, 02:09 PM
Paul said, "As it is written."

Robert has been told many times where it is written, but he doesn't care.

So where is it written?

"The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.'
They are corrupt, they have done abominable works,
There is none who does good." (Psalm 14:1)

"The fool has said in his heart, '“There is no God.'
They are corrupt and have done abominable iniquity,
There is none who does good." (Psalm 53:1)

Robert probably thinks Paul made that up. He will continue his misquote.

Robert is impervious to correction, he doesn't care about truth.

Paul frequently quoted the Old Testament prophets and patriarch's, that does not mean that Paul was a liar.

The scripture still stands, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

jamie
July 8th, 2017, 02:21 PM
Paul frequently quoted the Old Testament prophets and patriarch's, that does not mean that Paul was a liar.

The scripture still stands, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.


Yes, Robert, anyone who claims there is no God is by definition not righteous.

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (Romans 10:4)

No, Robert, that does not mean Christ abolished righteousness.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 8th, 2017, 02:42 PM
We have not received any of that yet. You are trying to bring into the now, that which is in the future.

What you are now is, "The chief of all sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15.

I disagree.

I think you might even disagree for you have repeatedly said:

"God now sees us as complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10."

Being "In Christ" to Paul means sharing in the life of Christ which means "partaking of the divine nature".

"And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Romans 8:10-11 KJV)

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: ..." (Galatians 2:20 KJV)

I agree with you that we are not perfected yet as we will be in the future before entering heaven.

But Paul shows pretty clearly that we are "partaking of the divine nature" right now by Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit living within us.

Peace.

glorydaz
July 8th, 2017, 03:13 PM
Also, if works mean nothing, then why did God/Christ ever give us commandments? That would be superfluous to faith, if works merit nothing.




God gave us commandments so we would know what sin is - we would see our guilt, and, therefore, our need for God's mercy and GRACE.



Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Robert Pate
July 8th, 2017, 04:41 PM
I disagree.

I think you might even disagree for you have repeatedly said:

"God now sees us as complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10."

Being "In Christ" to Paul means sharing in the life of Christ which means "partaking of the divine nature".

"And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Romans 8:10-11 KJV)

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: ..." (Galatians 2:20 KJV)

I agree with you that we are not perfected yet as we will be in the future before entering heaven.

But Paul shows pretty clearly that we are "partaking of the divine nature" right now by Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit living within us.

Peace.

The Holy Spirit does not make us holy. If anything the Holy Spirit will show you that fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23.

We see ourselves and others as sinners, but God sees us as perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. However, we are not there yet. This is why Paul reminds us that, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

We are waiting to be glorified, but we are not there yet.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 8th, 2017, 05:11 PM
The Holy Spirit does not make us holy. If anything the Holy Spirit will show you that fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23.

We see ourselves and others as sinners, but God sees us as perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. However, we are not there yet. This is why Paul reminds us that, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

We are waiting to be glorified, but we are not there yet.

Well, I'm not gonna keep going back and forth on this.

But if Jesus Christ is living within us, I just don't see how that is not "partaking of the divine nature."

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this is all.

Peace.

glorydaz
July 8th, 2017, 05:22 PM
The Holy Spirit does not make us holy. If anything the Holy Spirit will show you that fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23.

We see ourselves and others as sinners, but God sees us as perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. However, we are not there yet. This is why Paul reminds us that, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

We are waiting to be glorified, but we are not there yet.

The quote from Paul about "none righteous" is from the Psalm that speaks of the unbeliever...the fool who says in his heart there is no God. The same Psalm speaks of God being in the generation of the righteous.

glorydaz
July 8th, 2017, 05:24 PM
The Holy Spirit does not make us holy. If anything the Holy Spirit will show you that fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23.

We see ourselves and others as sinners, but God sees us as perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. However, we are not there yet. This is why Paul reminds us that, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

We are waiting to be glorified, but we are not there yet.

We only await the redemption of our body.

Epoisses
July 8th, 2017, 08:53 PM
The quote from Paul about "none righteous" is from the Psalm that speaks of the unbeliever...the fool who says in his heart there is no God. The same Psalm speaks of God being in the generation of the righteous.

Glorydaz thinks she's a righteous woman because she has been faithfully attending church for 40 years. The sinners are out in the streets, there could never be any sinners in the church - that would be unthinkable.

Robert Pate
July 8th, 2017, 08:53 PM
The quote from Paul about "none righteous" is from the Psalm that speaks of the unbeliever...the fool who says in his heart there is no God. The same Psalm speaks of God being in the generation of the righteous.

What about Romans 3:23?

"For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God" or the 7th chapter of Romans and Paul's struggle with sin.

glorydaz
July 8th, 2017, 10:35 PM
Glorydaz thinks she's a righteous woman because she has been faithfully attending church for 40 years. The sinners are out in the streets, there could never be any sinners in the church - that would be unthinkable.

Gosh, I hate to burst your fantasy bubble, but you couldn't be farther from the truth. :chuckle:

glorydaz
July 8th, 2017, 10:47 PM
What about Romans 3:23?

"For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God" or the 7th chapter of Romans and Paul's struggle with sin.

He's right, we do all fall short of the glory of God (we always will), and all who live long enough to know the difference between right and wrong do eventually choose wrongly and sin. In Romans 7, Paul is speaking as one under the law, and how sin uses the law against us. He wasn't saying he was "carnal" and "sold under sin" anymore...just that he was before he was freed from the law of sin and death by the Spirit of LIFE in Christ.

We are no longer sinners in bondage to the law, but saints delivered from it. We are no longer under the Law but under Grace....thus our liberty in Christ Jesus.

jamie
July 9th, 2017, 07:17 AM
What about Romans 3:23?


What about it?

In Romans 7:14 clearly states that Paul is speaking from the position of a carnal person, not a son of God.

There were no chapter breaks in Paul's original letter and Paul's discussion continues into the next break.

In chapter eight Paul makes clear that he complies with the Spirit's law, the rod of iron.

Jesus Christ will rule the world with this rod of iron.

Robert Pate
July 9th, 2017, 07:46 AM
What about it?

In Romans 7:14 clearly states that Paul is speaking from the position of a carnal person, not a son of God.

There were no chapter breaks in Paul's original letter and Paul's discussion continues into the next break.

In chapter eight Paul makes clear that he complies with the Spirit's law, the rod of iron.

Jesus Christ will rule the world with this rod of iron.


When Paul wrote Romans 7:14 he was a Christian. You can't figure out how someone can be a sinner and still be saved. That's because you don't understand the Gospel and justification by faith.

"But to him that does no works, but believes on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5.

Robert Pate
July 9th, 2017, 07:52 AM
He's right, we do all fall short of the glory of God (we always will), and all who live long enough to know the difference between right and wrong do eventually choose wrongly and sin. In Romans 7, Paul is speaking as one under the law, and how sin uses the law against us. He wasn't saying he was "carnal" and "sold under sin" anymore...just that he was before he was freed from the law of sin and death by the Spirit of LIFE in Christ.

We are no longer sinners in bondage to the law, but saints delivered from it. We are no longer under the Law but under Grace....thus our liberty in Christ Jesus.

Christians are sinners and saints at the same time.

As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we will be subject to the law. But we know that we have been delivered from the law.

jamie
July 9th, 2017, 09:41 AM
You can't figure out how someone can be a sinner and still be saved.


A temple of God cannot be a receptacle for sin.

The Spirit doesn't save people in sin but from sin.

jamie
July 9th, 2017, 09:47 AM
As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we will be subject to the law.


Yes, man's law, nature's law, and the Spirit's law.

The trinity of law.

Don't drive impaired, it's against the law.

jamie
July 9th, 2017, 09:53 AM
But to him that does no works


I don't know about that. Are you saying a Christian should not provide food, clothing and shelter for his family?

What's wrong with that?

Robert Pate
July 9th, 2017, 11:05 AM
I don't know about that. Are you saying a Christian should not provide food, clothing and shelter for his family?

What's wrong with that?

When the Bible talks about works it is usually a work of the law or a religious thing.

There are many religious people that are trying to be justified by the works of the law. A work of the law is any religious thing that one might do. The law does not save or justify. This is why Paul said,

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

jamie
July 9th, 2017, 11:25 AM
"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.


This is simply another way of saying salvation is by grace.

Many on TOL already know that. Tell us something we don't know.

Robert Pate
July 9th, 2017, 11:35 AM
This is simply another way of saying salvation is by grace.

Many on TOL already know that. Tell us something we don't know.

The reason that we are not justified by the law is because we are justified by Christ, Romans 3:26. Jesus justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5.

jamie
July 9th, 2017, 11:40 AM
Jesus justifies the ungodly


Who justifies the godly?

Robert Pate
July 9th, 2017, 11:48 AM
Who justifies the godly?

We are all ungodly, Romans 3:10.

jamie
July 9th, 2017, 01:31 PM
We are all ungodly


"then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment"

Robert Pate
July 9th, 2017, 02:37 PM
"then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment"

If you are not found to be "In Christ" in the judgment you will perish. To be "In Christ" means that you are trusting in his righteousness and in his atonement for your sins. You are not there because you are trusting in your righteousness. Your righteousness is filthy rags in God's sight, Isaiah 64:6.

glorydaz
July 9th, 2017, 03:05 PM
Christians are sinners and saints at the same time.

As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we will be subject to the law. But we know that we have been delivered from the law.

I can't agree with you on that, Robert. That would be like being half dead and half alive or half saved.

Robert Pate
July 9th, 2017, 03:14 PM
I can't agree with you on that, Robert. That would be like being half dead and half alive or half saved.

As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we are sinners, saved sinners. We have not received glorification yet. We are still in the groaning stage, Romans 8:22-25.

glorydaz
July 9th, 2017, 03:16 PM
As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we are sinners, saved sinners. We have not received glorification yet. We are still in the groaning stage, Romans 8:22-25.

You may call us sinners, but Paul tells us we are not under the Law, and he refers to us as saints. :chew:

Bard_the_Bowman
July 9th, 2017, 03:21 PM
When the Bible talks about works it is usually a work of the law or a religious thing.

Sorry to interject here but I don't agree.

The Bible does speak of the "works of the law".

But it also speaks of "good works done in love". And it speaks about these in a positive way.

Those two types of "works" cannot be lumped together. They are not the same thing.

In other words, when the Bible speaks of "works", we have to be able to discern which it is talking about.

For example:

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16 KJV)

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10 KJV)

"That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:17 KJV)

" For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." (Galatians 5:6 KJV)


There are many religious people that are trying to be justified by the works of the law. A work of the law is any religious thing that one might do. The law does not save or justify. This is why Paul said,

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

"Works of the law" from Paul typically meant the Jewish ceremonial works etc. that separated the Jews from the Gentiles.

It did not mean "any religious thing one might do".

If what you call "religious people" are doing "good works" in "love" and not the Jewish ceremonial laws, dietary restrictions, etc......Well, according to Scripture, that is a very good thing.

Peace.

Robert Pate
July 9th, 2017, 03:23 PM
You may call us sinners, but Paul tells us we are not under the Law, and he refers to us as saints. :chew:

Paul referred to himself as "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15. We are sinners and saints at the same time.

Robert Pate
July 9th, 2017, 03:27 PM
Sorry to interject here but I don't agree.

The Bible does speak of the "works of the law".

But it also speaks of "good works done in love". And it speaks about these in a positive way.

Those two types of "works" cannot be lumped together. They are not the same thing.

In other words, when the Bible speaks of "works", we have to be able to discern which it is talking about.

For example:

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 5:16 KJV)

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:10 KJV)

"That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:17 KJV)

" For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love." (Galatians 5:6 KJV)



"Works of the law" from Paul typically meant the Jewish ceremonial works etc. that separated the Jews from the Gentiles.

It did not mean "any religious thing one might do".

If what you call "religious people" are doing "good works" in "love" and not the Jewish ceremonial laws, dietary restrictions, etc......Well, according to Scripture, that is a very good thing.

Peace.

All works are a good thing. But good works do not justify. There is no scripture that says that your good works will justify. The only thing that justifies is faith in Christ and his Gospel, Romans 4:4-5.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 9th, 2017, 03:33 PM
All works are a good thing. But good works do not justify. There is no scripture that says that your good works will justify. The only thing that justifies is faith in Christ and his Gospel, Romans 4:4-5.

Agreed.

Works alone do not justify. Neither does faith alone.

Faith and good works go together.

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17 KJV)

See also James 2:18-26.

Peace.

Robert Pate
July 9th, 2017, 03:48 PM
Agreed.

Works alone do not justify. Neither does faith alone.

Faith and good works go together.

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17 KJV)

See also James 2:18-26.

Peace.


Nope, its faith alone. Good works are the results of faith, not the cause of it.

James was a Judaizer. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also believes that you must keep the law of Moses. There were many Judaizers in the early church.

James was the head of the church in Jerusalem. He wanted to circumcise Gentile believers after the law of Moses. You can read about the whole thing in the 15th chapter of Acts.

Epoisses
July 9th, 2017, 03:50 PM
Agreed.

Works alone do not justify. Neither does faith alone.

Faith and good works go together.

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17 KJV)

See also James 2:18-26.

Peace.

Wrong. Faith alone does justify everyone who comes under the blessed protection of it. Outside this city of refuge the avenger of blood (broken law) awaits to take all those who reject it. You're snared in the trap of the devil.

glorydaz
July 9th, 2017, 08:40 PM
Paul referred to himself as "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15. We are sinners and saints at the same time.

If you look at the verse in context, you'll see he isn't saying he is the worst sinner, but foremost in sequence or time. He just gets through saying he had been counted faithful, and mentions what he had been "before".


1 Tim. 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.

Chief clearly cannot mean worst. Especially when you look at all the other times Paul uses that particular word. I think it refers to being saved by the Gospel of Grace.


1 Tim. 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

And why? "In me FIRST"....FOR A PATTERN to them which should believe unto salvation.


1 Tim. 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

daqq
July 9th, 2017, 09:09 PM
James was a Judaizer. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also believes that you must keep the law of Moses. There were many Judaizers in the early church.

James was the head of the church in Jerusalem. He wanted to circumcise Gentile believers after the law of Moses. You can read about the whole thing in the 15th chapter of Acts.

What can be said about anyone who would intentionally lie about and misrepresent the scripture? let alone one who falsely proclaims himself to be "Christian" while presuming to be not only a teacher but a judge of others? What a sad, twisted, cruel joke your own teacher has played on you. Who was it who taught you that you can just make up things and lie about the scriptures to suit your doctrine as you go?

Acts 15:1-26 ASV
1 And certain men came down from JudŠa and taught the brethren, saying, Except ye be circumcised after the custom of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and questioning with them, the brethren appointed that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 They therefore, being brought on their way by the church, passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church and the apostles and the elders, and they rehearsed all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much questioning, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Brethren, ye know that a good while ago God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us;
9 and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why make ye trial of God, that ye should put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they.
12 And all the multitude kept silence; and they hearkened unto Barnabas and Paul rehearsing what signs and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles through them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,
18 Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old.
19 Wherefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them that from among the Gentiles turn to God;
20 but that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath.
22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men out of their company, and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 and they wrote thus by them, The apostles and the elders, brethren, unto the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greeting:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard that certain who went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment;
25 it seemed good unto us, having come to one accord, to choose out men and send them unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 9th, 2017, 11:47 PM
Nope, its faith alone.

Yes....depending on what you mean by that. If you mean something like Paul teaches in Galatians 5:6 "faith which worketh by love"...then yes.

If you mean something like "intellectual assent" alone. Then no. Even the demons have that but they are not saved.


Good works are the results of faith, not the cause of it.

Whoever said that good works are the cause of faith?

Faith and good works are complementary. James is talking about a "faith that works". And that is what Paul is talking about in Galatians 5:6. (a faith that worketh by love).


James was a Judaizer. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also believes that you must keep the law of Moses. There were many Judaizers in the early church.

Why do you think James was a Judaizer?


James was the head of the church in Jerusalem. He wanted to circumcise Gentile believers after the law of Moses. You can read about the whole thing in the 15th chapter of Acts.

Ok. I read Acts 15. What is it in that chapter that makes you think James was a Judaizer? I am not seeing where it says that James wanted to circumcise Gentiles.

Peace.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 9th, 2017, 11:52 PM
Wrong. Faith alone does justify everyone who comes under the blessed protection of it. Outside this city of refuge the avenger of blood (broken law) awaits to take all those who reject it. You're snared in the trap of the devil.

Hey Epoisses,

Well, we just had a discussion about "faith alone" recently.

And we found out that both of our definitions of that mean more than just "belief".

We found out that the term is broad enough to include elements of repentance AND forgiveness/forgiving AND love.

I think you called it:


Repentance is a gift so when I said God gives his love to repentant sinners it still falls within the happy and holy place of 'faith alone'.

That's what James is talking about in his letter. A faith that works. And that is what Paul says in Galatians 5:6 "a faith that worketh by love".

So yeah, in that sense, I agree with you that we are saved by "faith alone".

Peace.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 10th, 2017, 12:08 AM
What can be said about anyone who would intentionally lie about and misrepresent the scripture? let alone one who falsely proclaims himself to be "Christian" while presuming to be not only a teacher but a judge of others? What a sad, twisted, cruel joke your own teacher has played on you. Who was it who taught you that you can just make up things and lie about the scriptures to suit your doctrine as you go?

Acts 15:1-26 ASV
1 And certain men came down from JudŠa and taught the brethren, saying, Except ye be circumcised after the custom of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and questioning with them, the brethren appointed that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 They therefore, being brought on their way by the church, passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church and the apostles and the elders, and they rehearsed all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much questioning, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Brethren, ye know that a good while ago God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, who knoweth the heart, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us;
9 and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why make ye trial of God, that ye should put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that we shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they.
12 And all the multitude kept silence; and they hearkened unto Barnabas and Paul rehearsing what signs and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles through them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Symeon hath rehearsed how first God visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After these things I will return, And I will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen; And I will build again the ruins thereof, And I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, And all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,
18 Saith the Lord, who maketh these things known from of old.
19 Wherefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them that from among the Gentiles turn to God;
20 but that we write unto them, that they abstain from the pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from what is strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses from generations of old hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath.
22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men out of their company, and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 and they wrote thus by them, The apostles and the elders, brethren, unto the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greeting:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard that certain who went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls; to whom we gave no commandment;
25 it seemed good unto us, having come to one accord, to choose out men and send them unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

A very nice post daqq. :thumb:

I wonder if some people just aren't reading carefully versus trying to deceive?

Sometimes it happens to me when I am not reading carefully.

Peace.

daqq
July 10th, 2017, 12:49 AM
A very nice post daqq. :thumb:

I wonder if some people just aren't reading carefully versus trying to deceive?

Sometimes it happens to me when I am not reading carefully.

Peace.

One who assumes to himself the office of teacher should expect higher criticism for what he says, (and certainly should not be making such blatant errors, especially while condemning others to hell for not agreeing with his brand of doctrine, lol). And one who produces more daily threads than a momma rabbit can produce offspring no doubt considers himself a "teacher" and leader of this little online community, (lol). :)

daqq
July 10th, 2017, 01:38 AM
A very nice post daqq. :thumb:

I wonder if some people just aren't reading carefully versus trying to deceive?

Sometimes it happens to me when I am not reading carefully.

Peace.


One who assumes to himself the office of teacher should expect higher criticism for what he says, (and certainly should not be making such blatant errors, especially while condemning others to hell for not agreeing with his brand of doctrine, lol). And one who produces more daily threads than a momma rabbit can produce offspring no doubt considers himself a "teacher" and leader of this little online community, (lol). :)

And aside from that do not think that RP does not know what he is doing:


A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also believes that you must follow the law of Moses.

There were many Judaizers in the early church. The apostle James was one of them. Many did not understand the Gospel and justification by faith apart from the works of the law. Paul was the only apostle that fully understood that Christians were no longer required to follow the law. The reason for this is because Paul received the Gospel directly from Jesus Christ, Galatians 1:11,12. It is the Gospel that frees us from the law of Moses.

James sent men to spy on Peter and Barnabas to see if they were eating with Gentiles, Galatians 2:12. This was a direct violation of the law of Moses. When the Jews walked into the dinner there at the church in Antioch, Peter and Barnabas went under the table. Paul saw the whole thing and gave everyone a good tongue lashing, Galatians 2:14-21.

Later on in Acts 15, Paul wanted to introduce some Gentile believers to the church there in Jerusalem. When James and some of the others got word that they were coming they said, "Except that you are circumcised after the manner of Moses, you cannot be saved" Acts 15:1. This caused some dispute. If it had not been for all of the things that God was doing with the Gentiles through Paul they probably would have circumcised them, but because of Paul's testimony they let them off.
Are You a Judaizer? (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?118448-Are-You-a-Judaizer)

This person has no clue what the scriptures teach because he confounds devils with people. Those who went to "spy" on Paul are the same "certain ones" in Jude who may "creep in unawares" while you are "feasting in the Word" if you are not careful, just as they have apparently so done with RP, (and have infected his doctrine). The same are those of which Jude says were "fore-written of old time to such condemnation", thus they are "men of old", "men of renown", or the "men having been named", (Gen 4, Gen 6, and elsewhere, gibborim, and "permanent dwellers upon the land" whose names are not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world). In other words those are not the kind of "men" you can see with your eyes of the flesh. Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and the leaven of the Sadducees, and the leaven of Herod, (the Herodians), for the kingdom of the heavens is likened unto leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of flour, until the whole lump was leavened, (Mt 13:33), and the kingdom of Elohim is within you, (Lk 17:20,21). :)

Epoisses
July 10th, 2017, 07:16 AM
Hey Epoisses,

Well, we just had a discussion about "faith alone" recently.

And we found out that both of our definitions of that mean more than just "belief".

We found out that the term is broad enough to include elements of repentance AND forgiveness/forgiving AND love.

I think you called it:

That's what James is talking about in his letter. A faith that works. And that is what Paul says in Galatians 5:6 "a faith that worketh by love".

So yeah, in that sense, I agree with you that we are saved by "faith alone".

Peace.

You don't agree. You want to take the credit away from God which is sin.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 10th, 2017, 08:32 AM
You don't agree.

Um...yes, I do. I thought we clarified this in our last discussion. When you use the term "faith alone" you mean a faith that includes repentance, forgiveness, and love.

And I agree with that use of "faith alone".

I just don't see how that is a faith that is alone. The other elements, take love, for example, are not the same as faith. Paul makes that clear in 1 Corinthians 13.

But I think in essence we are in agreement.



You want to take the credit away from God which is sin.

False.

I already stated that it is by God's grace that we can have faith, come to repentance, forgive, and love.

It is all by God's grace.

That is giving God all of the credit, not taking credit away from God.

Peace.

Robert Pate
July 10th, 2017, 08:33 AM
Yes....depending on what you mean by that. If you mean something like Paul teaches in Galatians 5:6 "faith which worketh by love"...then yes.

If you mean something like "intellectual assent" alone. Then no. Even the demons have that but they are not saved.






Whoever said that good works are the cause of faith?

Faith and good works are complementary. James is talking about a "faith that works". And that is what Paul is talking about in Galatians 5:6. (a faith that worketh by love).



Why do you think James was a Judaizer?



Ok. I read Acts 15. What is it in that chapter that makes you think James was a Judaizer? I am not seeing where it says that James wanted to circumcise Gentiles.

Peace.


You don't want to believe that James was a Judaizer, just like you don't want to believe that we are justified by faith alone. There is no hope for you that cannot accept the truth. You remain in darkness.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 10th, 2017, 08:42 AM
You don't want to believe that James was a Judaizer, just like you don't want to believe that we are justified by faith alone. There is no hope for you that cannot accept the truth. You remain in darkness.

A very weak answer, to be honest, Robert.

I asked you why you believe James was a Judaizer. You said Acts 15 shows that James wanted to circumcise the Gentiles.

Well, how about explaining where you see that so that I can see that too?

If you do not, then I'll have to conclude that you cannot.

Which means you would like me to believe that James is a Judaizer just because you say so.

That isn't good enough for me. I want some biblical evidence please.

How about giving me some evidence from Acts 15 that can convince me that James was a Judaizer?

Thanks.

Peace.

jamie
July 10th, 2017, 08:43 AM
James was a Judaizer. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also believes that you must keep the law of Moses.


Is that what James said?

"Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God." (Acts 15:19)

It doesn't matter to you what scripture says does it?

Robert Pate
July 10th, 2017, 08:51 AM
Is that what James said?

"Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God." (Acts 15:19)

It doesn't matter to you what scripture says does it?

James is repenting after a long argument with Paul and the other apostles, Acts 15:7. You have to read the whole thing not just what you want to read. Even after that James still could not turn lose of the law, Acts 15:20, 21.

jamie
July 10th, 2017, 09:00 AM
James is repenting after a long argument with Paul and the other apostles, Acts 15:7.


James is not mentioned in verse 7. That's your addition to scripture.

Robert Pate
July 10th, 2017, 09:07 AM
James is not mentioned in verse 7. That's your addition to scripture.

James changed his mind about circumsiseing Gentile Christians, Acts 15:19.

jamie
July 10th, 2017, 09:47 AM
James changed his mind about circumsiseing Gentile Christians, Acts 15:19.


Was Abraham a Gentile?

Did he subscribe to circumcision of the flesh?

If so then there was a long tradition of circumcision before it was shown to Peter that it was not required of Gentiles.

Modern day Judaizers claim that Gentiles must refer to the Most High by some form of Hebrew name.

What a scam.

jamie
July 10th, 2017, 09:51 AM
Robert, tell me again why you believe in universal salvation.

beloved57
July 10th, 2017, 09:56 AM
pate


"Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief" 1 Timothy 1:15 (https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1%20Tim%201.15)

Yet you teach the sinners He came into the world to save are still lost ! What a shame !

Bard_the_Bowman
July 10th, 2017, 09:58 AM
[QUOTE=Robert Pate;5060435]James is repenting after a long argument with Paul and the other apostles, Acts 15:7.

James is repenting??

The text doesn't say that, Robert. You are reading that into the text. That is called "eisegesis".

The text doesn't even mention James until verse 13.

What the text actually shows us is that there was a great debate about this matter between all of the apostles and elders. We just have to include verse 6 with verse 7:

"And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing,..." (Acts 15:6-7)


You have to read the whole thing not just what you want to read.

Robert, I could not agree more! :thumb:


Even after that James still could not turn lose of the law, Acts 15:20, 21.

If we read more carefully, starting at verse 22 and continuing through verse 29 we see that everyone present agreed.

It says that it pleased the apostles, and the elders, and the whole church to circulate letters around declaring the decision that had been made.

Since everyone agreed to that. If James is a Judaizer, then so is everyone else including Paul, Peter, Barnabus and all the rest.

But they aren't.

Peace.

chair
July 10th, 2017, 11:02 AM
People that have embraced a holiness theology have little to no use for the Gospel and justification by faith. Many are Paul haters because this is what Paul taught. Paul plainly taught that all men are sinners and are justified by faith apart from works and obedience to the law or the commandments of Jesus...

Should be called Paulianity instead of Christianity.

Robert Pate
July 10th, 2017, 01:11 PM
[QUOTE]

James is repenting??

The text doesn't say that, Robert. You are reading that into the text. That is called "eisegesis".

The text doesn't even mention James until verse 13.

What the text actually shows us is that there was a great debate about this matter between all of the apostles and elders. We just have to include verse 6 with verse 7:

"And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing,..." (Acts 15:6-7)



Robert, I could not agree more! :thumb:



If we read more carefully, starting at verse 22 and continuing through verse 29 we see that everyone present agreed.

It says that it pleased the apostles, and the elders, and the whole church to circulate letters around declaring the decision that had been made.

Since everyone agreed to that. If James is a Judaizer, then so is everyone else including Paul, Peter, Barnabus and all the rest.

But they aren't.

Peace.


James was the one that wanted to circumcise the Gentile believers, not Paul.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 10th, 2017, 01:29 PM
[QUOTE=Bard_the_Bowman;5060458]


James was the one that wanted to circumcise the Gentile believers, not Paul.

I understand that that is what you believe.

But you haven't yet shown me any evidence that that is true.

What in Acts 15 shows that James wanted to circumcise the Gentiles?

Since Paul, James and all of the others came to an agreement on this matter...if you want to continue to call James a Judaizer without evidence and he is in agreement with all of the others...well, then all of the others (including Paul) would have to be Judaizers as well to be consistent in your thinking.

You haven't given any evidence from Acts 15 that James is a Judaizer.

You are just reading that idea into the text.

It isn't there.

Peace.

Robert Pate
July 10th, 2017, 01:44 PM
[QUOTE=Robert Pate;5060551]

I understand that that is what you believe.

But you haven't yet shown me any evidence that that is true.

What in Acts 15 shows that James wanted to circumcise the Gentiles?

Since Paul, James and all of the others came to an agreement on this matter...if you want to continue to call James a Judaizer without evidence and he is in agreement with all of the others...well, then all of the others (including Paul) would have to be Judaizers as well to be consistent in your thinking.

You haven't given any evidence from Acts 15 that James is a Judaizer.

You are just reading that idea into the text.

It isn't there.

Peace.

Sure it is. You just don't want to believe it. Notice how James lays the law back on them after it was all over, Acts 15:20, 21.

jamie
July 10th, 2017, 02:30 PM
Yet you teach the sinners He came into the world to save are still lost ! What a shame !


Pate teaches universal salvation.

He says we are saved by the doing and dying of Jesus and that Jesus died for everyone.

That's universal salvation which includes your group.

patrick jane
July 10th, 2017, 02:41 PM
Pate teaches universal salvation.

He says we are saved by the doing and dying of Jesus and that Jesus died for everyone.

That's universal salvation which includes your group.1 Timothy 4:10 KJV -

Bard_the_Bowman
July 10th, 2017, 02:49 PM
James was the one that wanted to circumcise the Gentile believers, not Paul.

Paul had Timothy circumcised because Timothy's father was a Gentile:

"Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek." (Acts 16:3)

I don't believe that makes Paul a Judaizer.

But I still don't see any evidence of James wanting to circumcise anyone.

Peace.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 10th, 2017, 03:20 PM
[QUOTE=Bard_the_Bowman;5060560]

Sure it is. You just don't want to believe it. Notice how James lays the law back on them after it was all over, Acts 15:20, 21.

Avoiding idols is a work now? Avoiding fornication is a work now? Then they and all of us are guilty of those works.

I don't see anything about James demanding circumcision. You are making that up.

The early church was in a unique time because they had to balance the break with Judaism and the New Covenant and incorporate both Jews and Gentiles into the church. James suggests a pastoral solution as a stepping stone towards the future when the break between Judaism and Christianity would be much more definite. But that took time and in Acts they are just beginning that process.

But here's what you are ignoring...they all agreed with what James said: (Notice parts in bold)

"Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.

Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts 15:22-29)

Notice that it isn't just James.

It seemed good to the apostles, elders, brethren and even the Holy Ghost!

Nope. There is no evidence here that James is a Judaizer. If we read the passages carefully we pretty clearly can see that James, with all the rest of the assembly, and even the Holy Spirit are in agreement on the decision.

Peace.

Epoisses
July 10th, 2017, 05:31 PM
Um...yes, I do. I thought we clarified this in our last discussion. When you use the term "faith alone" you mean a faith that includes repentance, forgiveness, and love.

And I agree with that use of "faith alone".

I just don't see how that is a faith that is alone. The other elements, take love, for example, are not the same as faith. Paul makes that clear in 1 Corinthians 13.

But I think in essence we are in agreement.




False.

I already stated that it is by God's grace that we can have faith, come to repentance, forgive, and love.

It is all by God's grace.

That is giving God all of the credit, not taking credit away from God.

Peace.

So why do some Christians have a grace filled faith which works by love and other Christians have a graceless dead faith that is filled with self-love?

Lazy afternoon
July 10th, 2017, 05:39 PM
Sure it is. You just don't want to believe it. Notice how James lays the law back on them after it was all over, Acts 15:20, 21.

It was not the reintroduction of the law.

Those things, the satan worshippers were doing in their services.

The saints are required to avoid all such practices.

LA

Lazy afternoon
July 10th, 2017, 05:42 PM
So why do some Christians have a grace filled faith which works by love and other Christians have a graceless dead faith that is filled with self-love?

It is because many think they have what the Bible describes, without actually having it.

LA

Lazy afternoon
July 10th, 2017, 05:47 PM
People that have embraced a holiness theology have little to no use for the Gospel and justification by faith. Many are Paul haters because this is what Paul taught. Paul plainly taught that all men are sinners and are justified by faith apart from works and obedience to the law or the commandments of Jesus.

"As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23.

"Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief" 1 Timothy 1:15

Many of the prophets and patriarch's confessed that they were unworthy sinners. Isaiah wrote,

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all of our righteousness is as filthy rags, Isaiah 64:6.

In spite of all of these scriptures the holiness people still maintain that they can please God and keep the commandments of Jesus. Many of the holiness people are Pentecostals, while others are Nazarenes or Catholics. Regardless they are all rejecters of the Gospel and justification by faith. Then the question arises, can one reject the Gospel and justification by faith and still be saved? I think not. What they are, are counterfeits. They act like Christians they talk like Christians, but they do not posses the Holy Spirit, who is the Spirit of truth, John 16:13.

One of the works of the Holy Spirit is to convict the believer that he is a sinner, Romans 3:19. The whole world stands guilty before God's Holy Law. Both believers and unbelievers. This is why we need to be saved and justified by the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Salvation is totally and completely outside of us and is only found in the doing and the dying of Jesus.

In the Gospel, Jesus clothes himself in our humanity and becomes one with us, but not one of us. In our name and on our behalf Jesus offers to God the Father a life of perfect obedience according to his holy law. He does this for our justification. We are justified because Jesus fulfilled the law for us. We can't fulfill it because we are sinners, saved sinners. That was not enough, something had to be done about our sins and the sins of the whole world. This is why,

"He has made him to be sins for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him" 2 Corinthians 5:23.

In Jesus Christ we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30. God now sees us as complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. We who are saved have been saved by the doing and the dying of Jesus and have no confidence in our flesh, Philippians 3:3.

Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Heb 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Robert Pate
July 10th, 2017, 06:59 PM
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Heb 12:12 Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees;
Heb 12:13 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

All good scripture. I have been to the Lord's woodshed more than once.

Lazy afternoon
July 11th, 2017, 01:04 AM
All good scripture. I have been to the Lord's woodshed more than once.

Yes me too, and it wasn't pretty.

LA

Epoisses
July 11th, 2017, 06:40 AM
It is because many think they have what the Bible describes, without actually having it.

LA

yup.

Robert Pate
July 11th, 2017, 06:51 AM
It is because many think they have what the Bible describes, without actually having it.

LA

Isn't that the truth? It is called counterfeit Christianity. It walks like duck, talks like a duck, but it is not a duck. Its phony baloney.

Robert Pate
July 14th, 2017, 11:03 AM
Holiness theology was the doctrine of the Pharisees. They thought that if the kept the law they would be saved. Things have not changed much. There are still many that believe that the law justifies. Paul taught that the law does not justify.

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin" Romans 3:20.

The law tells us that our righteousness falls short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23.

jamie
July 14th, 2017, 12:28 PM
The law tells us that our righteousness falls short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23.


Which means something is missing.

What made it possible for Jesus to keep the law?

Robert Pate
July 14th, 2017, 12:42 PM
Which means something is missing.

What made it possible for Jesus to keep the law?

Nothing is missing except your acceptance of the fact that everyone is a sinner, Romans 3:23.

Jesus was God incarnate in the flesh. He was perfect God and perfect man in one person.

jamie
July 14th, 2017, 02:56 PM
Jesus was God incarnate in the flesh. He was perfect God and perfect man in one person.


Well, we know he was exactly like us.

"Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren" (Hebrews 2:17)

And when he appears we will be like him as he is now. (1 John 3:2)

"You have put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him." (Hebrews 2:8)

Who is the pronoun "him" referring to? Do you know?

jamie
July 14th, 2017, 02:59 PM
How was Jesus able to overcome sin when he was human? Do you know?

Robert Pate
July 15th, 2017, 12:04 PM
Well, we know he was exactly like us.

"Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren" (Hebrews 2:17)

And when he appears we will be like him as he is now. (1 John 3:2)

"You have put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him." (Hebrews 2:8)

Who is the pronoun "him" referring to? Do you know?


Jesus was not exactly like us. He was not born after Adam like we are. He was born after God through the virgin Mary.

jamie
July 15th, 2017, 12:56 PM
Jesus was not exactly like us. He was not born after Adam like we are. He was born after God through the virgin Mary.


In what way was Jesus' birth different?

Robert Pate
July 15th, 2017, 02:26 PM
In what way was Jesus' birth different?

Jesus was born without sin. He was perfect God and perfect man in one person.

We are all born after Adam and have inherited Adam's sinful nature, Romans 5:12.

jamie
July 15th, 2017, 02:58 PM
Jesus was born without sin. He was perfect God and perfect man in one person.

We are all born after Adam and have inherited Adam's sinful nature, Romans 5:12.


Was Jesus tempted to sin? If so why didn't he?

Robert Pate
July 16th, 2017, 09:16 AM
Was Jesus tempted to sin? If so why didn't he?

Satan tempted to Jesus to sin, but Jesus overcame, Matthew 4:1-11.

jamie
July 16th, 2017, 10:38 AM
Satan tempted to Jesus to sin, but Jesus overcame, Matthew 4:1-11.


Yes, Jesus overcame by what means? How did Jesus resist temptation?

Robert Pate
July 16th, 2017, 02:02 PM
Yes, Jesus overcame by what means? How did Jesus resist temptation?

Jesus overcame sin, death and the devil because in him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead, Colossians 1:19.

jamie
July 16th, 2017, 02:44 PM
Jesus overcame sin, death and the devil because in him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead, Colossians 1:19.


The Spirit of the Father indwelt Jesus' mind the same as he indwells our mind.

The difference is Jesus had his Father's Spirit from birth, we don't. Therefore, before we have his Spirit we sin.

We are baptized for the remission of sin.

Robert Pate
July 16th, 2017, 03:09 PM
The Spirit of the Father indwelt Jesus' mind the same as he indwells our mind.

The difference is Jesus had his Father's Spirit from birth, we don't. Therefore, before we have his Spirit we sin.

We are baptized for the remission of sin.


We cannot say "In us dwells all the fullness of the Godhead".

We only have the first fruits or the down payment of the Holy Spirit, Romans 8:23.

jamie
July 16th, 2017, 05:16 PM
We cannot say "In us dwells all the fullness of the Godhead".


Did Jesus' shadow heal any one?

"And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women, so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them." (Acts 5:14-15)

Robert Pate
July 17th, 2017, 08:00 AM
Did Jesus' shadow heal any one?

"And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women, so that they brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall on some of them." (Acts 5:14-15)

God used many methods to get the Gospel of his Son out into the world.

jamie
July 17th, 2017, 08:03 AM
God used many methods to get the Gospel of his Son out into the world.


And everyone says :duh:

Robert Pate
July 17th, 2017, 08:09 AM
And everyone says :duh:

Not everyone. There are some on the Forum that know and understand the Gospel, but you are not one of them.