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musterion
July 6th, 2017, 04:57 AM
A Catholic encyclopedia defines justification as,



"The process by which a sinner is made righteous, pure and holy before God."

It goes on to say how justification is obtained:


"Justification in the Catholic Tradition comes about by means of faith in Christ, and in a life of good works lived in response to God's invitation to believe. "


Terminology varies but this is the essence of what many non-Catholics here believe...that one cannot be justified by God without works (usually camouflaged by calling it obedience) because justification is not an act of God alone based on the work of Christ alone, but a PROCESS in which a person must cooperate with Christ by works, or at least "bear the fruit" of participating (which still amounts to works), or be lost.

The Calvinistic doctrine of Lordship Salvation, which has spread far beyond the boundaries of Reformed churches, is a distilled and highly refined version of this doctrine but it teaches basically the same thing: if a believer is not bringing forth the "fruit" of authenticating works, his salvation is dubious if not impossible.

@God's Truth (http://theologyonline.com/member.php?u=14521) is one professing non-Catholic with basically the same belief as taught by Rome but by no means is the only one. Most on TOL hold to some form of it. MADs are almost the only ones who repudiate any such belief.

Robert Pate
July 8th, 2017, 01:58 PM
A Catholic encyclopedia defines justification as,



It goes on to say how justification is obtained:



Terminology varies but this is the essence of what many non-Catholics here believe...that one cannot be justified by God without works (usually camouflaged by calling it obedience) because justification is not an act of God alone based on the work of Christ alone, but a PROCESS in which a person must cooperate with Christ by works, or at least "bear the fruit" of participating (which still amounts to works), or be lost.

The Calvinistic doctrine of Lordship Salvation, which has spread far beyond the boundaries of Reformed churches, is a distilled and highly refined version of this doctrine but it teaches basically the same thing: if a believer is not bringing forth the "fruit" of authenticating works, his salvation is dubious if not impossible.

@God's Truth (http://theologyonline.com/member.php?u=14521) is one professing non-Catholic with basically the same belief as taught by Rome but by no means is the only one. Most on TOL hold to some form of it. MADs are almost the only ones who repudiate any such belief.

Good article. To be justified by faith means that we are justified by Christ, Romans 3:26.

Nang
July 8th, 2017, 02:13 PM
MADs are almost the only ones who repudiate any such belief.

I beg your pardon . . .

Why do you think many of us call ourselves "Reformers?" Who do you think began the Protestant movement away from the errors and oppression of the RCC and her required ~works~ ?

Was it not Martin Luther who emphasized justification by faith, alone, in his teachings?

MAD has perverted this doctrine, by disrespecting the concept of holy living. You have made obedience produced by the indwelling Holy Spirit, into a supposed work, and deny such sanctified living in the name of grace.

MAD has abused the doctrine of Sanctification as badly as the RCC, by adopting the opposite extreme, IMO.

glorydaz
July 8th, 2017, 02:18 PM
I beg your pardon . . .

Why do you think many of us call ourselves "Reformers?" Who do you think began the Protestant movement away from the errors and oppression of the RCC and her required ~works~ ?

Was it not Martin Luther who emphasized justification by faith, alone, in his teachings?

MAD has perverted this doctrine, by disrespecting the concept of holy living. You have made obedience produced by the indwelling Holy Spirit, into a supposed work, and deny such sanctified living in the name of grace.

MAD has abused the doctrine of Sanctification as badly as the RCC, by adopting the opposite extreme, IMO.

That's silly. We just don't boast about what is God's work in us as if it was our own.

Nang
July 8th, 2017, 02:25 PM
That's silly. We just don't boast about what is God's work in us as if it was our own.

It is not boasting to repent, and to desire to bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

It is sinful to refuse to repent, or acknowledge holy standards of lifestyle.

God's grace does not give any who profess faith in Jesus Christ, license to live apart from confession of sins and manifesting a love of His Word.

Psalm 119 reveals the heart and attitude of truly regenerated believers . . .

glorydaz
July 8th, 2017, 02:47 PM
It is not boasting to repent, and to desire to bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit in our lives.

It is sinful to refuse to repent, or acknowledge holy standards of lifestyle.

God's grace does not give any who profess faith in Jesus Christ, license to live apart from confession of sins and manifesting a love of His Word.

Psalm 119 reveals the heart and attitude of truly regenerated believers . . .

You sound just like God's UNtruth. :think:

It merely shows you don't believe God is able to perform His good work in us.



Let me guess....you don't understand what it means to REST in the Lord, do you?

How about TRUST in Him instead of yourself?

How about believing that Christ died for all sin....perhaps you should repent of your preoccupation with sin. Careful, you might turn into a pillar of salt.

Truster
July 8th, 2017, 03:08 PM
Justification is by the trust/faith of Messiah. It is His trust in the Father's promise to justify those for whom He suffered, died and was risen.

oatmeal
July 8th, 2017, 03:08 PM
Romans 5:1 clearly states that we are justified by the faith of Jesus Christ.

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:


However, if we keep reading we find out more details of what that means and implies:

Justification, reconciliation, atonement, free gift, righteousnes... mean different things, but they are all related. all of them were the result of what Jesus Christ did for us. All of it is a free gift, but we must believe to receive that free gift. Is believing works? Yes, but our believing did not do the works that justified us, it was Jesus Christ's works that justified us.

Jesus Christ worked pretty hard to earn that free gift for us, seems the least we could do is "hold out our hands" to receive that gift and open it up in our minds and hearts and live accordingly

Our job, our "work" is to simply receive what Jesus Christ did for us by doing Romans 10:9

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

It is a free gift that we receive when are born again, are we going to open it up and appreciate it and live accordingly or complain about it?

As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord God who sent His son and the lord Jesus Christ who paid for it

Nang
July 8th, 2017, 03:41 PM
You sound just like God's UNtruth. :think:

It merely shows you don't believe God is able to perform His good work in us.



Let me guess....you don't understand what it means to REST in the Lord, do you?

How about TRUST in Him instead of yourself?

How about believing that Christ died for all sin....perhaps you should repent of your preoccupation with sin. Careful, you might turn into a pillar of salt.

I simply believe that regenerated sinners, will manifest holiness.

Not sinlessness. Nor licentiousness.

But a holy, sanctified, non-worldly, faithful, lifestyle.

I John 1:5-2:6

Squeaky
July 8th, 2017, 04:06 PM
A Catholic encyclopedia defines justification as,



It goes on to say how justification is obtained:



Terminology varies but this is the essence of what many non-Catholics here believe...that one cannot be justified by God without works (usually camouflaged by calling it obedience) because justification is not an act of God alone based on the work of Christ alone, but a PROCESS in which a person must cooperate with Christ by works, or at least "bear the fruit" of participating (which still amounts to works), or be lost.

The Calvinistic doctrine of Lordship Salvation, which has spread far beyond the boundaries of Reformed churches, is a distilled and highly refined version of this doctrine but it teaches basically the same thing: if a believer is not bringing forth the "fruit" of authenticating works, his salvation is dubious if not impossible.

@God's Truth (http://theologyonline.com/member.php?u=14521) is one professing non-Catholic with basically the same belief as taught by Rome but by no means is the only one. Most on TOL hold to some form of it. MADs are almost the only ones who repudiate any such belief.

I said
Faith-Works-Love (By Themselves they are only principles) But together they are righteousness.

People are trying to make a conclusion out of pieces and parts. It cant be done. Faith alone won't get you to heaven. Works alone won't get you to heaven. Love alone won't get you to heaven. That is the only conclusion.

XXX If all you have to present to God is faith, YOU ARE NOTHING.
1 Cor 13:1-2

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
James 2:14
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
James 2:17-18
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
James 2:24
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Rom 16:26
26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith--
(NKJ)

XXX You are saved by grace through faith. But that is NOT SALVATION. Faith only works through love.

Eph 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
(NKJ)


Luke 6:32-33
32 "But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
33 "And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
(NKJ)

xxx Some stand on faith and some stand on works and some stand on love. They are all principles, they have to be together. So many on here are argueing just one point or part of a whole. You need to understand. Faith without works or love is dead. Works without faith or love is vanity. Love without faith or works is useless. Love is NOT AN EMOTION. Love is an action.

So many are running on blind faith. They dont even know what faith is. In reality their useing trust as faith. Their different. Your faith should be in what is written, all of it. But faith alone will NOT get you to heaven. Works alone will NOT get you to heaven. Love alone will not get you to heaven. What you need is the true faith in the Word of God. If you have the true faith in the Word of God you would try your best to do the works that are in the Word. Now love is NOT a feeling but an action. And the only way to learn what Godly love is would be to do the works. That is how you learn what love is by trying to do the works. In the Word that you have put your faith in.


Rom 5:1-4
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;
4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope.
Eph 2:18-20
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone,
Eph 3:12
12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.
(NKJ)

xxx Do you have real faith, or blind faith?? The true faith only works through love. True love is to suffer wrongfully. Your real faith only works when you are suffering wrongfully.

Gal 5:6
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
(NKJ)

1 Tim 1:5-6
5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,
6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk,
(NKJ)

way 2 go
July 8th, 2017, 04:11 PM
Is believing works? Yes,

Is believing works?
no

everyone has works , believers and unbelievers .

glorydaz
July 8th, 2017, 04:34 PM
I simply believe that regenerated sinners, will manifest holiness.

Not sinlessness. Nor licentiousness.

But a holy, sanctified, non-worldly, faithful, lifestyle.

I John 1:5-2:6

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

glorydaz
July 8th, 2017, 04:42 PM
Justification is by the trust/faith of Messiah. It is His trust in the Father's promise to justify those for whom He suffered, died and was risen.

Yes, the faith of Christ. His trust in the Father's promise to justify those with faith in Him.


Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.


Galatians 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Nang
July 8th, 2017, 04:47 PM
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Same sin-damaged person; new heart (spirit).

Old things (bondage to fear of death) are passed away.

All things ( love of God and His Word)are become new (alive).

As usual, you approach doctrine and the Scriptures, literally, and totally miss the spiritual implications and Truth contained therein.

jsanford108
July 8th, 2017, 05:09 PM
A Catholic encyclopedia defines justification as,



It goes on to say how justification is obtained:



Terminology varies but this is the essence of what many non-Catholics here believe...that one cannot be justified by God without works (usually camouflaged by calling it obedience) because justification is not an act of God alone based on the work of Christ alone, but a PROCESS in which a person must cooperate with Christ by works, or at least "bear the fruit" of participating (which still amounts to works), or be lost.

The Calvinistic doctrine of Lordship Salvation, which has spread far beyond the boundaries of Reformed churches, is a distilled and highly refined version of this doctrine but it teaches basically the same thing: if a believer is not bringing forth the "fruit" of authenticating works, his salvation is dubious if not impossible.

@God's Truth (http://theologyonline.com/member.php?u=14521) is one professing non-Catholic with basically the same belief as taught by Rome but by no means is the only one. Most on TOL hold to some form of it. MADs are almost the only ones who repudiate any such belief.

I would disagree with your generalization that most on TOL share the Faith+Works doctrine (let us call it the "Catholic Justification"), there are a few. Yes, God's Truth (user) shares belief in parts of the doctrine, but not wholly. I have only encountered a few who hold this doctrine (all Catholic), and a few who posses a works centric version, commonly misapplied as "catholic version." (Usually such groups are fringe groups, like MAD)

Also, there is nothing in the Catholic Justification that disagrees with Scripture. In fact, it is supported by Scripture.

Your issue lies in your view of justification. Catholicism views justification as a process that is not complete until judgement (IE- when you die). Protestants view justification as present (IE- "if you died right now"). So really, the difference is only in viewpoint, not in definition. The difference is in the views associated with the state of the soul.

Protestants hope that Christ assumes all responsibility for their sins, whereas Catholics assume responsibility for their sins, yet trust that Christ will wipe away their sins upon repentance. Therefore, Protestants always assume they are justified, while Catholics know they are justified or in danger of damnation.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

jsanford108
July 8th, 2017, 05:14 PM
Forgive any lack of clarity in my post; I was quite distracted during its formation. I will be happy to address any inquiries into it. Again, I apologize for any lack of clarity and well communicated doctrine.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

glorydaz
July 8th, 2017, 05:15 PM
Same sin-damaged person; new heart (spirit).

Old things (bondage to fear of death) are passed away.

All things ( love of God and His Word)are become new (alive).

As usual, you approach doctrine and the Scriptures, literally, and totally miss the spiritual implications and Truth contained therein.

My, you are amazing. You got all that from my posting a single verse. :chuckle:

Nang
July 8th, 2017, 05:22 PM
My, you are amazing. You got all that from my posting a single verse. :chuckle:

A book could be written about the verse you quoted . . .

Nang
July 8th, 2017, 05:26 PM
I would disagree with your generalization that most on TOL share the Faith+Works doctrine (let us call it the "Catholic Justification"), there are a few. Yes, God's Truth (user) shares belief in parts of the doctrine, but not wholly. I have only encountered a few who hold this doctrine (all Catholic), and a few who posses a works centric version, commonly misapplied as "catholic version." (Usually such groups are fringe groups, like MAD)

Also, there is nothing in the Catholic Justification that disagrees with Scripture. In fact, it is supported by Scripture.

Your issue lies in your view of justification. Catholicism views justification as a process that is not complete until judgement (IE- when you die). Protestants view justification as present (IE- "if you died right now"). So really, the difference is only in viewpoint, not in definition. The difference is in the views associated with the state of the soul.

Protestants hope that Christ assumes all responsibility for their sins, whereas Catholics assume responsibility for their sins, yet trust that Christ will wipe away their sins upon repentance. Therefore, Protestants always assume they are justified, while Catholics know they are justified or in danger of damnation.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Protestants consider Justification forensically (legally). A once-and-all rendering of pardon under the Law accomplished by Jesus Christ on the cross.

Sanctification (holy, obedient, blessed Christian life) is progressive and distinctive work of the Holy Spirit, following legal Justification, leading to ultimate salvation upon bodily resurrection.

The RCC confuses the purpose of the two doctrines . . .

glorydaz
July 8th, 2017, 05:27 PM
A book could be written about the verse you quoted . . .

Oh, so that gives you room to assume what I don't see in the verse?

You should really try to rein in that active imagination of yours. Is that part of the workers' creed?
"Imagine not what you might be doing, but what those around you might be doing."

Nang
July 8th, 2017, 05:28 PM
Oh, so that gives you room to assume what I don't see in the verse?

You should really try to rein in that active imagination of yours. Is that part of the workers' creed?
"Imagine not what you might be doing, but what those around you might be doing."

It is very difficult to show blind persons, what they, in fact, cannot see . . .

oatmeal
July 8th, 2017, 06:32 PM
Is believing works?
no

everyone has works , believers and unbelievers .

What?

What do unbelievers believe?

That they are unbelievers. That there is no God.... That takes work

glorydaz
July 8th, 2017, 07:09 PM
It is very difficult to show blind persons, what they, in fact, cannot see . . .

Even the blind have more spiritual insight than some....

glorydaz
July 8th, 2017, 07:13 PM
What?

What do unbelievers believe?

That they are unbelievers. That there is no God.... That takes work

He said "everybody has works". Unbelievers have wicked works.

Think about it, Oats. It's the work of God that we believe...He does the persuading. No matter how hard we try to believe, we can't do it unless the word of God is persuasive enough. That's what it means by believing not being a work of man.

Nihilo
July 8th, 2017, 07:32 PM
What?

What do unbelievers believe? . . . That there is no God.... The key point is that unbelievers believe that the Lord Jesus is not risen. There are plenty of people who believe in God, and who reject the RESURRECTION, and so they're unbelievers. Believing in God doesn't save, believing in the RESURRECTION does.

Nang
July 8th, 2017, 07:48 PM
Even the blind have more spiritual insight than some....

Those given spiritual insight from God, are no longer blinded . . .they indeed once were blind, but now they see.

Nang
July 8th, 2017, 07:51 PM
The key point is that unbelievers believe that the Lord Jesus is not risen. There are plenty of people who believe in God, and who reject the RESURRECTION, and so they're unbelievers. Believing in God doesn't save, believing in the RESURRECTION does.

Uh . . only Creator God possesses resurrection powers. To believe in God is to believe He raises sinners from death to life, and to believe in rescue from death to life, is to believe in God.

You are narrowing faith to an action of God, while denying faith in the Person of God who does the resurrecting.

Kinda unnecessary parameters, limiting the description of saving faith, I say . . .

And your disgusting and obscene belly avatar, further reduces your attempts to define the holy and Christian faith, IMO.

glorydaz
July 8th, 2017, 07:58 PM
Those given spiritual insight from God, are no longer blinded . . .they indeed once were blind, but now they see.

I was speaking of the physically blind.....guess you don't have as much "insight" as you thought you did. :chuckle:

glorydaz
July 8th, 2017, 08:00 PM
Uh . . only Creator God possesses resurrection powers. To believe in God is to believe He raises sinners from death to life, and to believe in rescue from death to life, is to believe in God.

You are narrowing faith to an action of God, while denying faith in the Person of God who does the resurrecting.

Kinda unnecessary parameters, limiting the description of saving faith, I say . . .

And your disgusting and obscene belly avatar, further reduces your attempts to define the holy and Christian faith, IMO.

I believe Nang has risen to the top of the manure pile. :thumb:

glorydaz
July 8th, 2017, 08:01 PM
The key point is that unbelievers believe that the Lord Jesus is not risen. There are plenty of people who believe in God, and who reject the RESURRECTION, and so they're unbelievers. Believing in God doesn't save, believing in the RESURRECTION does.

That is a disgusting avatar. :carryon:

Tambora
July 8th, 2017, 08:25 PM
That is a disgusting avatar. :carryon:Now now.
I think he decided to try and get back in shape.
Didn't you, Nihilo?
Take another selfie when you've made some progress.


:chuckle:

glorydaz
July 8th, 2017, 08:29 PM
Now now.
I think he decided to try and get back in shape.
Didn't you, Nihilo?
Take another selfie when you've made some progress.


:chuckle:

I hope he can find some tattoo remover while he's at it. ;)

1Mind1Spirit
July 8th, 2017, 08:30 PM
Even the blind have more spiritual insight than some....

I might have to quit hackin' on you. :crackup:

Tambora
July 8th, 2017, 08:36 PM
I might have to quit hackin' on you. :crackup:Atta boy!

glorydaz
July 8th, 2017, 08:37 PM
I might have to quit hackin' on you. :crackup:

You'd be wise to do so. But, I won't hold my breath. ;)

Tambora
July 8th, 2017, 08:40 PM
I hope he can find some tattoo remover while he's at it. ;)All that ink will eventually shrink and clump into stretch-marks.

Baby oil, Nihilo, baby oil.

Eagles Wings
July 8th, 2017, 08:56 PM
That is a disgusting avatar. :carryon:

I've had him on ignore for weeks.

I bet it's taking a toll on him, too.:allsmile:

:ha:

musterion
July 9th, 2017, 05:38 AM
I will prove the OP is true with just one example.

For all non-MADs...yes or no...would a new believer's refusal to be water baptized by your church displease Christ?

Epoisses
July 9th, 2017, 06:28 AM
I will prove the OP is true with just one example.

For all non-MADs...yes or no...would a new believer's refusal to be water baptized by your church displease Christ?

Most new believers are taught that water baptism is necessary for Salvation but in God's eyes the only baptism that is necessary is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The thief on the cross didn't get sprinkled or dunked but he did get juiced with power from on high.

oatmeal
July 9th, 2017, 07:48 AM
The key point is that unbelievers believe that the Lord Jesus is not risen. There are plenty of people who believe in God, and who reject the RESURRECTION, and so they're unbelievers. Believing in God doesn't save, believing in the RESURRECTION does.

Yes, thanks for your insight.

So, then any other points you wanted to make about my post?

Are you otherwise satisfied that the scripture I shared does elaborate on the concept of justification? Not completely, of course, because there are other sections of scripture that deal with or mention justification as well.

oatmeal
July 9th, 2017, 07:50 AM
Uh . . only Creator God possesses resurrection powers. To believe in God is to believe He raises sinners from death to life, and to believe in rescue from death to life, is to believe in God.

You are narrowing faith to an action of God, while denying faith in the Person of God who does the resurrecting.

Kinda unnecessary parameters, limiting the description of saving faith, I say . . .

And your disgusting and obscene belly avatar, further reduces your attempts to define the holy and Christian faith, IMO.

What do you mean by resurrection powers?

How is resurrecting different from raising someone from the dead?

Thanks ahead of time for defining your terms.

musterion
July 9th, 2017, 08:12 AM
Most [ALMOST ALL] new believers are taught that water baptism is necessary for Salvation

Exactly, which is why the OP is true.


but in God's eyes the only baptism that is necessary is the baptism OF the Holy Spirit.

No, baptism BY the Holy Spirit INTO the Body of Christ is what saves.

musterion
July 9th, 2017, 08:15 AM
Don't let the Reformed fool you with their blather about salvation by grace through faith alone without works. They may say they believe it but in practice they don't. The Reformed believe that their version of water baptism has replaced circumcision and so is necessary for becoming right with God.

Nang
July 9th, 2017, 08:47 AM
Don't let the Reformed fool you with their blather about salvation by grace through faith alone without works. They may say they believe it but in practice they don't. The Reformed believe that their version of water baptism has replaced circumcision and so is necessary for becoming right with God.

You don't know what you are posting about. Reformers do not believe water baptism is salvific at all.

Nick M
July 9th, 2017, 09:43 AM
Terminology varies but this is the essence of what many non-Catholics here believe...that one cannot be justified by God without works (usually camouflaged by calling it obedience) because justification is not an act of God alone based on the work of Christ alone, but a PROCESS in which a person must cooperate with Christ by works, or at least "bear the fruit" of participating (which still amounts to works), or be lost.


That is faith plus works. As told in the red letters. Don't be too harsh. Just let them know they have been set free.

Nang
July 9th, 2017, 10:18 AM
That is faith plus works. As told in the red letters. Don't be too harsh. Just let them know they have been set free.

Reformers are monergistic. Musty describes erroneous synergistic human works supposedly necessary to achieve justification with God. :nono:

Justification was worked by the Incarnate Christ, alone.

The only place I have heard the teachings Musty is accusing Reformers as holding, is in Dispensational churches. THEY are the ones who propose water baptism has replaced circumcision. That is a DISPIE error.

musterion
July 9th, 2017, 11:21 AM
They don't want to believe that they've been freed. They believe that claiming you are free is evil.

musterion
July 9th, 2017, 11:31 AM
Reformers are monergistic. Musty describes erroneous synergistic human works supposedly necessary to achieve justification with God. :nono:

Can a new believer reject water baptism and get to Heaven?


The only place I have heard the teachings Musty is accusing Reformers as holding, is in Dispensational churches. THEY are the ones who propose water baptism has replaced circumcision. That is a DISPIE error.

You lie because you are too well read not to know better.


The main reason that this great Reformed tradition endorses the baptism of infants of believers is that there appears to be in the New Testament a correspondence between circumcision and baptism. Just as circumcision was given as a sign to the "children of the covenant" in the Old Testament, so baptism—the new sign of the covenant—should be given to the "children of the covenant" today.
-- John Piper, Calvinist, not a dispie


Today’s passage links baptism and circumcision, showing us that new covenant baptism is a proximate fulfillment of the sign of circumcision . . . Baptism confirms that those who have trusted in Christ alone are cleansed of sin and set apart for life eternal.
-- R.C. Sproul, Calvinist, not a dispie

Mr/Mrs. Nang really hates me right now.

Nang
July 9th, 2017, 12:06 PM
Can a new believer reject water baptism and get to Heaven?

Sure. The new believer gains access to heaven through the resurrected Christ. Only.




You lie because you are too well read not to know better.

I do not lie. The DISPIES (and the RCC) teach that baptism is a required work.

The teaching of the Reformer is that baptism is a blessed sacrament. A provision of grace from God.

Big difference.



-- John Piper, Calvinist, not a dispie


-- R.C. Sproul, Calvinist, not a dispie

Mr/Mrs. Nang really hates me right now.

I don't hate you. I just do not like when you misrepresent my beliefs and accuse me of wrong thinking.

I am no fan of Piper and disagree with Sproul about baptism being a "fulfillment" of the sign of circumcision.

Baptism was ordained by Jesus Christ as a witness to the believer being spiritually ingrafted into Christ and His visible church body, under His Covenant of Grace.

It is not a requirement, nor is it a "work unto righteousness," nor is it a "proximate fulfillment" (whatever that means!) of the sign of circumcision.

Epoisses
July 9th, 2017, 03:44 PM
Don't let the Reformed fool you with their blather about salvation by grace through faith alone without works. They may say they believe it but in practice they don't. The Reformed believe that their version of water baptism has replaced circumcision and so is necessary for becoming right with God.

says the tard who trusts in his works of merit.

Save me works of my hands, save me!

Epoisses
July 9th, 2017, 03:45 PM
No, baptism BY the Holy Spirit INTO the Body of Christ is what saves.

The body of dispensational rejects is not the body of Christ.

musterion
July 9th, 2017, 06:30 PM
Sure. The new believer gains access to heaven through the resurrected Christ. Only.

So it isn't required.


Baptism was ordained by Jesus Christ as a witness to the believer being spiritually ingrafted into Christ and His visible church body, under His Covenant of Grace.

So it's an ordinance from the Lord, which makes it a requirement.


It is not a requirement

Ordinance = required.

Do you enjoy talking out of all sides of your mouth at one time? The perversity of it is amazing to watch.

Nihilo
July 9th, 2017, 09:21 PM
Uh . . only Creator God possesses resurrection powers.What censored is quote-unquote creator god, and please provide bible verse for "resurrection powers," as I'm unfamiliar with both terms. Is this from "Star Treks?"

To believe in God is to believe He raises sinners from death to life, and to believe in rescue from death to life, is to believe in God.You're a moron. There are probably hundreds of millions of real human beings who right now, today, quote-unquote believe in quote-unquote God, and who do not believe that the Lord Jesus is risen from the dead. There may be billions. Wait a minute, there definitely are billions. Of people, who "believe in "God"" and not the RESURRECTION.

You are narrowing faith to an action of God, while denying faith in the Person of God who does the resurrecting.

Kinda unnecessary parameters, limiting the description of saving faith, I say . . .The public display of your intellectual deficit is now completed. Pay attention: Watch how easy this is.

if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.


You are narrowing faith to an action of God, while denying faith in the Person of God who does the resurrecting.

Kinda unnecessary parameters, limiting the description of saving faith, I say . . .Complete idiot.

And your disgusting and obscene belly avatar, further reduces your attempts to define the holy and Christian faith, IMO.At least I have an excuse.

Lon
July 10th, 2017, 11:44 AM
Can a new believer reject water baptism and get to Heaven?



You lie because you are too well read not to know better.


-- John Piper, Calvinist, not a dispie
:nono: He's dispensational.



-- R.C. Sproul, Calvinist, not a dispie

Mr/Mrs. Nang really hates me right now.Agree, but he doesn't believe in baptism for salvation, nor obedience 'for salvation' either.


Any talk of obedience, is about a bit complicated but not 'for' salvation. Well, perhaps it isn't that complicated, but it can be when we don't see things quite the same way.

Briefly, the Reformed believe that a new creation will new-naturally follow Christ Ephesians 2:10 Philippians 2:13 2 Corinthians 5:17
As I understand MAD, the belief is the same. I'm not really familiar enough with MAD to make blanketed statements, but I think across board, MADists believe we must be new creations which does, in fact, mean obedience because a new nature 'follows' the Spirit. To me, rather, it seems that 'obedience' is seen as a separate thing "I" do, especially from cults. Reformed people very much believe
obedience is something God does in and through us. Philippians 2:13. I agree with you there are misplaced sermons about obedience out there in Reformed circles and one would wonder why, given that we are complete monergists. In a sense, MADists would at least become complete monergists after salvation is initiated. That, to me, is an important point in this discussion as well. A complete reliance upon the work of Christ alone IS monergism (nothing to do with us), and several theology camps claiming monergism in this sense as well as ascribing synergism to the other.
Some in MAD, may presume upon grace without understanding themselves as new creations, perhaps, at least by speculation: If one comes to God but is not a new creation, they may be MAD (again theoretically) but not a new creation. Only God can make Christians, we can't save ourselves. A trust in God without becoming a new creation, isn't 'saved' by itself. A lot of anti-Christians/unbelievers will say they believed, it didn't make them Christians and they are offended when I call them on this. ONLY God can make a Christian. 2 Corinthians 5:17 says so.

The Body of Christ, across most every theology platform, is made up ONLY of new creations, wherever they may be found and they will have a new nature of obedience. Galatians 5:16

Lon
July 10th, 2017, 11:55 AM
So it's an ordinance from the Lord, which makes it a requirement.

Ordinance = required.

Do you enjoy talking out of all sides of your mouth at one time? The perversity of it is amazing to watch.
Baptism is the way the rest of the church understands following God in His scriptures. I realize we may have gotten this part wrong, according to MAD. Here is a question: In Galatians, were the Judaizers unsaved? Or just Judaized?

Perhaps I can make this clearer: Does trust in God alone necessitate that I will not get caught up in works/obedience? For instance, in MAD churches, do some members just not get this right away? that obedience is monergism instead of synergism? What I'm driving at, is do you tell someone in a MAD church, that they need to get saved or that they need to come to a better understanding of God's grace?

My intention here is to ask if Baptists are in the Body of Christ according to MAD: Are we brothers in error or is this doctrine so important that it might actually point to one not being a believer in your minds? (Probably good for another thread: "MADists, Am I, a NonMAD, saved??")
I've asked that in other threads, but perhaps an actually thread specifically on that, would spur more of this kind of dialogue (hopefully meaningful).

In Him -Lon

Zeke
July 10th, 2017, 12:22 PM
What censored is quote-unquote creator god, and please provide bible verse for "resurrection powers," as I'm unfamiliar with both terms. Is this from "Star Treks?"
You're a moron. There are probably hundreds of millions of real human beings who right now, today, quote-unquote believe in quote-unquote God, and who do not believe that the Lord Jesus is risen from the dead. There may be billions. Wait a minute, there definitely are billions. Of people, who "believe in "God"" and not the RESURRECTION.
The public display of your intellectual deficit is now completed. Pay attention: Watch how easy this is.


Complete idiot.
At least I have an excuse.

Can you do the whistling belly button trick? TOL is just like this movie.
https://youtu.be/tSVeDx9fk60

Nang
July 10th, 2017, 08:08 PM
So it isn't required.



So it's an ordinance from the Lord, which makes it a requirement.

God ordains (decrees and orders) all things. His decrees establish all events. Not all events prove to be requirements unto salvation, right?

What I find odd, is you (as a MADist) do not believe in or practice baptism, and yet you present argument claiming Christ ordained baptism, and you conclude it is therefore an ordinance and requirement that others of different faiths, must so believe, practice, and defend.

While you do not . . .

Can you explain yourself?

musterion
July 12th, 2017, 06:39 AM
:nono: He's dispensational.


No sir, not really.


John Piper’s position

John Piper has some things in common with each of these views, but does not classify himself within any of these three camps. He is probably the furthest away from dispensationalism, although he does agree with dispensationalism that there will be a millennium.

Many of his theological heroes have been covenant theologians (for example, many of the Puritans), and he does see some merit in the concept of a pre-fall covenant of works, but he has not taken a position on their specific conception of the covenant of grace.

In regards to his views on the Mosaic Law, he seems closer to new covenant theology than covenant theology, although once again it would not work to say that he precisely falls within that category.


Lest anyone think some dispie made that up...

http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-does-john-piper-believe-about-dispensationalism-covenant-theology-and-new-covenant-theology

musterion
July 12th, 2017, 06:40 AM
Baptism is the way the rest of the church understands following God in His scriptures. I realize we may have gotten this part wrong, according to MAD. Here is a question: In Galatians, were the Judaizers unsaved? Or just Judaized?

Perhaps I can make this clearer: Does trust in God alone necessitate that I will not get caught up in works/obedience? For instance, in MAD churches, do some members just not get this right away? that obedience is monergism instead of synergism? What I'm driving at, is do you tell someone in a MAD church, that they need to get saved or that they need to come to a better understanding of God's grace?

My intention here is to ask if Baptists are in the Body of Christ according to MAD: Are we brothers in error or is this doctrine so important that it might actually point to one not being a believer in your minds? (Probably good for another thread: "MADists, Am I, a NonMAD, saved??")
I've asked that in other threads, but perhaps an actually thread specifically on that, would spur more of this kind of dialogue (hopefully meaningful).

In Him -Lon

Water baptism was Israel's. Not yours.

Lon
July 12th, 2017, 08:47 AM
No sir, not really.



Lest anyone think some dispie made that up...

http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/what-does-john-piper-believe-about-dispensationalism-covenant-theology-and-new-covenant-theology
Sorry, I read "MacArthur." My eyesight isn't what it used to be.

Lon
July 12th, 2017, 08:49 AM
Water baptism was Israel's. Not yours.

Realize only MAD thinks so. I acquiesce the point but would reiterate Nick, to go gently. I don't believe it a huge issue.

musterion
July 12th, 2017, 09:35 AM
Realize only MAD thinks so. I acquiesce the point but would reiterate Nick, to go gently. I don't believe it a huge issue.

When people put stock in it as a spiritual box that has to be checked to get into Heaven? As most people do, or are told to do? Yes, Lon, it is a VERY big deal.

Step at a time here. There's only two choices:

Water baptism (in whatever mode or form) either must be submitted to in order to please God, or it does not.

It's that simple.

musterion
July 12th, 2017, 09:37 AM
Sorry, I read "MacArthur." My eyesight isn't what it used to be.

As you know, Johnny Mac need not even be quoted here; decades ago he jettisoned what remaining shreds of disp'ism he ever had.

Nang
July 12th, 2017, 01:19 PM
When people put stock in it as a spiritual box that has to be checked to get into Heaven? As most people do, or are told to do? Yes, Lon, it is a VERY big deal.

Step at a time here. There's only two choices:

Water baptism (in whatever mode or form) either must be submitted to in order to please God, or it does not.

It's that simple.

There are more than two purposes for the ritual and practice of baptism, so the premise for your OP is faulty.

For example, Jesus Christ was baptized, but Scripture does not say He subjected Himself to the ritual, only to "please God."

Lon
July 12th, 2017, 07:58 PM
When people put stock in it as a spiritual box that has to be checked to get into Heaven? As most people do, or are told to do? Yes, Lon, it is a VERY big deal.
I don't know many that do.


1 Step at a time here. There's only two choices:

Water baptism (in whatever mode or form) either must be submitted to in order to please God, or it does not.

It's that simple.
No, pleasing God, as far as I'm aware, is very different from salvation requirements. For most, it would be an act of obedience. A big one? Not compared to say, loving your neighbor, and that not for salvation but because of it. -Lon

musterion
July 13th, 2017, 07:27 AM
I don't know many that do.

Not going to argue this with you, Lon, because I do know many. Do they put it in those terms? No. Is it still what they believe as evidenced by their rules and practice? Yes. Remember that I'm an ex-IFB and before that ex-loosey-goosey evangellyfish. That's a nice cross-section of current evangelicalilsm-fundamentalism (so called).

I've repeatedly posted Baptist denominational year-end figures showing where they count their number of converts NOT as how many people believe the Gospel but how many people they got in the tank. That is how they officially count who is "Christian." That shows you what they really believe it takes to be saved, and even most Baptists won't come out and say you MUST be water baptized or they will not accept you into fellowship or as a Christian (ask me how I know that; I've told that story before too).

Zeke
July 13th, 2017, 08:12 AM
Not going to argue this with you, Lon, because I do know many. Do they put it in those terms? No. Is it still what they believe as evidenced by their rules and practice? Yes. Remember that I'm an ex-IFB and before that ex-loosey-goosey evangellyfish. That's a nice cross-section of current evangelicalilsm-fundamentalism (so called).

I've repeatedly posted Baptist denominational year-end figures showing where they count their number of converts NOT as how many people believe the Gospel but how many people they got in the tank. That is how they officially count who is "Christian." That shows you what they really believe it takes to be saved, and even most Baptists won't come out and say you MUST be water baptized or they will not accept you into fellowship or as a Christian (ask me how I know that; I've told that story before too).

Yet how are you any different than all theology based on history and future? when the scripture is about NOW, you claim the mystery yet still need a future event to seal the deal to enter the kingdom that isn't time based, which leaves you boxing the intellectual prophetic winds, tick,tick,tick,tick, Matt 11:11, and Galatians 4:20-28 shows the spiritual aspect of the eternal Christ awakened in flesh that you refuse to except while mesmerized by allegorical letters taken literally as history and future, Matt 3:2 in you Luke 17:20-21, your now is running out of time.

musterion
July 14th, 2017, 02:19 PM
@Lon

Also, I've told this story before. About 15 years ago my wife and I were attending an IFB church in Indiana. We'd been there for some time and liked the preaching (at the time) so decided to ask the pastor about joining. We stood out in the lobby and he asked us a few questions about how long we were married, etc...relatively trifling stuff. Did not once ask us what the saving Gospel is. Instead, he asked us TWICE "You've been baptized?" I said yes we had been, in college...but a few moments later he said it again as if to make SURE we were legitimate..."But you've been baptized?" I lost my patience a bit and said "YES, we've been baptized!" We never officially joined, just kept attending for a few years until we moved out of state, but for the longest time I kept wondering, "Why the heck was he so interested in whether we'd been water baptized?"

Now I know why.

Lon
July 14th, 2017, 02:26 PM
Yet how are you any different than all theology based on history and future? when the scripture is about NOW, you claim the mystery yet still need a future event to seal the deal to enter the kingdom that isn't time based, which leaves you boxing the intellectual prophetic winds, tick,tick,tick,tick, Matt 11:11, and Galatians 4:20-28 shows the spiritual aspect of the eternal Christ awakened in flesh that you refuse to except while mesmerized by allegorical letters taken literally as history and future, Matt 3:2 in you Luke 17:20-21, your now is running out of time.
You are too esoteric any more, to be involved in meaningful conversation with most of us, Zeke. You've literally lost touch with other's reality and cannot try to awaken a principle. Most spiritualists have lost touch so much with realities the rest of us take for granted, that your effect is babble and nonsense to most. My uncle, on drugs, and my aunt's boyfriend, on drugs, spoke in these kinds of ethereal expressions. I don't think all spiritualist new-agers are on drugs, but it is clear a good many are. There CAN be no spiritual principle from one who is caught in addiction and vice. If you are a spiritualist that doesn't do drugs? You have to work extra hard to be relevant to those you really don't understand. Your and my mind is VERY little to be traipsing the universe without holding the Owner of the universe's hand. Yeah, its a leash, and necessary mandatory so your and my little mind doesn't get lost. -Lon

musterion
July 14th, 2017, 02:39 PM
I looked up that church's website. See for yourself where the emphasis lies insofar as recorded figures:


With this mission and purpose as our only guide, and through the power of the Holy Spirit working in and through this congregation, we report numerous professions of faith taking place in the various services, ministries, programs, counseling, and face to face gospel witness of believers attached to this body. The number of believers following the Lord in baptism for fiscal year 2015/2016 numbered 16. Those who have chosen to join with us as members of Grace Baptist Church during the same fiscal year number at 12.

Note the emphasis for fellowship:


New members, received on a motion by ______________ that was seconded by ________, were as follows:


By believer’s baptism: [three names]
By statement of faith: [1 name]
By transfer of letter: [1 name]

musterion
July 14th, 2017, 02:46 PM
Here's the core of their gospel presentation...Lordship Salvation right down the line.

Lon
July 14th, 2017, 02:54 PM
I looked up that church's website. See for yourself where the emphasis lies insofar as recorded figures:
Note the emphasis for fellowship:

Thanks. If it gets to the point where baptism is salvation, I have concern as well. For membership? I'm not as concerned especially as 'Baptist' is in the name. Rather, I think it important to discuss what such means for MAD. It would be also interesting to me, for instance, to find out how many MAD have actually been baptized. Paul was glad he had not baptized many (seems like this was covered in another thread and more specific than the generality or off-trail of this one in particular). For me, the subject has some to do with the thread, in that it expressed MAD concerns over the similarities as well as has a nice tie-in to how ordinances affect us all between Orthodox, Protestant, and other denominations. Thank you for taking a few posts in to consideration and giving meaningful feedback. -Lon

1Mind1Spirit
July 14th, 2017, 03:06 PM
You are too esoteric any more, to be involved in meaningful conversation with most of us, Zeke. You've literally lost touch with other's reality and cannot try to awaken a principle. Most spiritualists have lost touch so much with realities the rest of us take for granted, that your effect is babble and nonsense to most. My uncle, on drugs, and my aunt's boyfriend, on drugs, spoke in these kinds of ethereal expressions. I don't think all spiritualist new-agers are on drugs, but it is clear a good many are. There CAN be no spiritual principle from one who is caught in addiction and vice. If you are a spiritualist that doesn't do drugs? You have to work extra hard to be relevant to those you really don't understand. Your and my mind is VERY little to be traipsing the universe without holding the Owner of the universe's hand. Yeah, its a leash, and necessary mandatory so your and my little mind doesn't get lost. -Lon

That's what he said. lol

11The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given by one Shepherd.

12But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body.

13The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.…


Proverbs 5:20-22Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
20*
Why, my son, would you lose yourself
with a forbidden woman
or embrace a wayward woman?
21*
For a man’s ways are before the Lord’s eyes,
and he considers all his paths.
22*
A wicked man’s iniquities will trap him;
he will become tangled in the ropes of his own sin.

Lon
July 14th, 2017, 03:12 PM
That's what he said. lol

11The words of wise men are like goads, and masters of these collections are like well-driven nails; they are given by one Shepherd.

12But beyond this, my son, be warned: the writing of many books is endless, and excessive devotion to books is wearying to the body.

13The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.…


Proverbs 5:20-22Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
20*
Why, my son, would you lose yourself
with a forbidden woman
or embrace a wayward woman?
21*
For a man’s ways are before the Lord’s eyes,
and he considers all his paths.
22*
A wicked man’s iniquities will trap him;
he will become tangled in the ropes of his own sin.

Yeah, I'm not sure about vices, I just have found that it many times goes hand in hand with New Age spiritualists. It isn't good. -Lon

Lon
July 14th, 2017, 03:17 PM
Here's the core of their gospel presentation...Lordship Salvation right down the line.
"You MUST" also troubling. You'd think there would be scriptures along with such a post. Perhaps a thread "Significant spiritual concerns with Baptists" or some such. I'm pretty sure we've never discussed Baptists from such a concern on TOL. I am affiliated with the Southern Baptists. Though we are all independent, I have seen similar within some of the independent churches as well. I kind of hate to see some discussions get lost within pages here on TOL. It doesn't come up as a Baptist specific TOL search. Perhaps it isn't just that, but your concerns certainly all are. Did you perchance start a thread on this yet, Musterion?

1Mind1Spirit
July 14th, 2017, 03:22 PM
Thanks. If it gets to the point where baptism is salvation, I have concern as well. For membership? I'm not as concerned especially as 'Baptist' is in the name. Rather, I think it important to discuss what such means for MAD. It would be also interesting to me, for instance, to find out how many MAD have actually been baptized. Paul was glad he had not baptized many (seems like this was covered in another thread and more specific than the generality or off-trail of this one in particular). For me, the subject has some to do with the thread, in that it expressed MAD concerns over the similarities as well as has a nice tie-in to how ordinances affect us all between Orthodox, Protestant, and other denominations. Thank you for taking a few posts in to consideration and giving meaningful feedback. -Lon

I baptized 4 people many years ago.

1 guy said, "man look at the trail a trash I left in that water".

The second two was a man and his wife.

Afterward, I felt led to read them 2Peter 1.

The fourth and last guy lost his fear of water and took off swimmin'.

That was at least 10 years ago.

Couldn't tell yuh where those folks are now.:idunno:

Was I sposed to baptize them or not?

Romans 14:4 4
Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the LORD is able to make them stand.

Zeke
July 14th, 2017, 03:40 PM
You are too esoteric any more, to be involved in meaningful conversation with most of us, Zeke. You've literally lost touch with other's reality and cannot try to awaken a principle. Most spiritualists have lost touch so much with realities the rest of us take for granted, that your effect is babble and nonsense to most. My uncle, on drugs, and my aunt's boyfriend, on drugs, spoke in these kinds of ethereal expressions. I don't think all spiritualist new-agers are on drugs, but it is clear a good many are. There CAN be no spiritual principle from one who is caught in addiction and vice. If you are a spiritualist that doesn't do drugs? You have to work extra hard to be relevant to those you really don't understand. Your and my mind is VERY little to be traipsing the universe without holding the Owner of the universe's hand. Yeah, its a leash, and necessary mandatory so your and my little mind doesn't get lost. -Lon

The mystery of Christ within is a nice theological trinket to pretend on Lon like Mid Acts also does, but until you experience Galatians 1:12 you will stay a secular pretender waiting, and waiting, for something new under the sun. The only relevance would be seeing the Spirit break the spell of religious bigotry that binds you're heart with electoral pride, certainly belongs in secularism and this kingdom of so called logical reasoning based on past and future observable signs outside the kingdom of God Luke 17:20-21.

musterion
July 14th, 2017, 03:41 PM
Perhaps it isn't just that, but your concerns certainly all are. Did you perchance start a thread on this yet, Musterion?

No, I don't see the point. "Baptist distinctives" are really meaningless to me now; not just because I'm no longer one of them but because, as you said, the problem isn't Baptist-specific.

What I mean is, I now look at everything (or try to) through the very, very simple and stark lens of the Gospel of grace. Either an individual, church or denomination preaches it...or not. Almost none do -- almost all put some form of work in the mix.. up front or on the back end, or both. L.S. is one example. Water baptism is the other (bigger and far older) example. These problems are not at all unique to Baptists, so there's no point in dedicating a thread just to them.

1Mind1Spirit
July 14th, 2017, 03:55 PM
Yeah, I'm not sure about vices, I just have found that it many times goes hand in hand with New Age spiritualists. It isn't good. -Lon

Glad you said many and not all.

Course I'll reserve judgement on yer ability to even make that call.

;)

Lon
July 14th, 2017, 07:56 PM
Glad you said many and not all.

Course I'll reserve judgement on yer ability to even make that call.

;)
You may. As far as my involvement with spiritualists, it often carries drug use as acceptable and viable. Why? Because, specifically, Christianity is incompatible with drug use and they know this. Therefore, in order to deal with their own abuses, they modify spirituality to align with their life-choices. In a nutshell, the bible says they 'suppress' the truth. You can reserve judgement all you like. Imho, it is an unbiblical reserve. Scripture cannot lie. Anyone who is not a bible-believing Christian, is suppressing the truth and making excuse for flesh concerns. You'll rarely, if ever, see any spiritualist back-pedal from the accusation. I am very adamant that drug use is against Ephesians 5:18. They will tell you immediately that the 'letter' of the law kills but what they really mean is, it is killing the old man in them, and they don't want him to die so they make up odd views so they do not have to follow Christ. Something is wrong, 1M1S. Pay attention. These signs are clear and clearly given in scripture. Don't suppress His truth by excusing others who suppress His truth. It is not wise.

Lon
July 14th, 2017, 08:06 PM
No, I don't see the point. "Baptist distinctives" are really meaningless to me now; not just because I'm no longer one of them but because, as you said, the problem isn't Baptist-specific.

What I mean is, I now look at everything (or try to) through the very, very simple and stark lens of the Gospel of grace. Either an individual, church or denomination preaches it...or not. Almost none do -- almost all put some form of work in the mix.. up front or on the back end, or both. L.S. is one example. Water baptism is the other (bigger and far older) example. These problems are not at all unique to Baptists, so there's no point in dedicating a thread just to them.

When it is MAD against everybody on a particular doctrine, it becomes more specific to another thread. In this thread, it gets a bit convoluted when the concern over a Catholic doctrine, then has a three-way (at least) conversation going between Catholics, Protestants, and then again, MAD, because we are talking about gradients of our dissention. I guess that is the point of your OP - that we aren't far removed from Catholicism on the whole as Protestants and Reformed. My question is and was this: What does it mean? I 'think' it means we are Judaized, but my initial question was important: Were those Galatians, that were Judaized by Peter, lost/never saved?

Why this question? Because in MAD, it isn't a danger, even. Imho, Galatians wasn't really written to MADists. It isn't a pitfall MAD could fall into easily. It is a pitfall the REST of us might, and so Galatians is more for us, because of it. Why? Because it is written to cover exactly this kind of problematic. A subtitle of this thread might be: "Galatians, a book for the rest of you" or something to that effect. For what it is worth -Lon

musterion
July 14th, 2017, 08:20 PM
When it is MAD against everybody on a particular doctrine, it becomes more specific to another thread. In this thread, it gets a bit convoluted when the concern over a Catholic doctrine, then has a three-way (at least) conversation going between Catholics, Protestants, and then again, MAD, because we are talking about gradients of our dissention. I guess that is the point of your OP - that we aren't far removed from Catholicism on the whole as Protestants and Reformed. My question is and was this: What does it mean? I 'think' it means we are Judaized, but my initial question was important: Were those Galatians, that were Judaized by Peter, lost/never saved?

Why this question? Because in MAD, it isn't a danger, even. Imho, Galatians wasn't really written to MADists. It isn't a pitfall MAD could fall into easily. It is a pitfall the REST of us might, and so Galatians is more for us, because of it. Why? Because it is written to cover exactly this kind of problematic. A subtitle of this thread might be: "Galatians, a book for the rest of you" or something to that effect. For what it is worth -Lon

Why do you keep trying to make this about MAD? It isn't.

Lon
July 14th, 2017, 08:24 PM
Why do you keep trying to make this about MAD? It isn't. I think, however, it is a MAD concern and perhaps consistency, that it would help for some clarification because of the stark difference.

musterion
July 14th, 2017, 08:30 PM
I think, however, it is a MAD concern and perhaps consistency, that it would help for some clarification because of the stark difference.

It was a concern - a big one - when I was IFB. It still is with their stance on separation (which is growing weaker all the time). To degrees, it's a concern EVERYONE has -- they believe whatever church or group they belong to is THE right one...else they wouldn't belong to it...which automatically means everyone else MUST be in some degree of fundamental error.

That leads any honest thinker to ask, Since everyone believes they are right but they contradict everyone else, who IS right and how can you find out?

I spent a few years wrestling with that (before I was MAD), and came to the conclusion back then that it HAS to go back to the Gospel.

Problem for me was, at the time, I still had a head full of bad doctrines, L.S. among them. 15 years ago, had someone even suggested to me that IFBs put more stock in water baptism than they realized (or admitted), I'd have gotten lit up and told you off. But it would have been true, as I've demonstrated. But IFBs are not alone in that. Pretty much everyone out there, to one degree or another, clings to some form of work even when they'd swear to you that they aren't. Just like I used to.

So explain again how MAD is the one with the problem here?

1Mind1Spirit
July 14th, 2017, 10:50 PM
You may. As far as my involvement with spiritualists, it often carries drug use as acceptable and viable. Why? Because, specifically, Christianity is incompatible with drug use and they know this. Therefore, in order to deal with their own abuses, they modify spirituality to align with their life-choices. In a nutshell, the bible says they 'suppress' the truth. You can reserve judgement all you like. Imho, it is an unbiblical reserve. Scripture cannot lie. Anyone who is not a bible-believing Christian, is suppressing the truth and making excuse for flesh concerns. You'll rarely, if ever, see any spiritualist back-pedal from the accusation. I am very adamant that drug use is against Ephesians 5:18. They will tell you immediately that the 'letter' of the law kills but what they really mean is, it is killing the old man in them, and they don't want him to die so they make up odd views so they do not have to follow Christ. Something is wrong, 1M1S. Pay attention. These signs are clear and clearly given in scripture. Don't suppress His truth by excusing others who suppress His truth. It is not wise.

Okay, yer not excused. :(

Lon
July 15th, 2017, 11:04 AM
So explain again how MAD is the one with the problem here?

:nono: Not problem, you misunderstand me. From your perspective, I'm assuming MAD is the only consistent group that would have the 'right' view on works and baptism. Do you know of another group? Certainly you run into many of us that deny baptism is a salvation issue as well as those of us who also agree works are not involved in saving grace in any synergistic way, but because we are from all denominations, I 'think' mentioning MAD (and if there happened to be any other denomination, but I am not aware of it), is helpful and meaningful. The contrast, imho, is important and I 'think' moves discussion. One does not have to be MAD to understand the alternate perspective here, so it was rather in hopes of service to you and the thread, that I brought it up. As I've said in the past, I appreciate the simplicity of MAD the most. Most can grasp its tenants and follow why such is deemed scriptural. I think viewing the simpler forms of systematic theology, actually helps others compare to their own and do not see that as a poor thing, but something serviceable and helpful. :e4e:

Lon
July 15th, 2017, 11:08 AM
Okay, yer not excused. :(

Romans 1:18 Always ask yourself 'why' someone is suppressing the truth and assume God's truth is actual truth. It will help you discern rightly. I know it 'seems' to be judgmental, but that isn't the desire. This is about diagnosis. God has given you the tools. Be familiar with them. Use them. :e4e: -Lon

musterion
July 15th, 2017, 01:31 PM
:nono: Not problem, you misunderstand me. From your perspective, I'm assuming MAD is the only consistent group that would have the 'right' view on works and baptism. Do you know of another group?

The only people I have found that come close are the Clear Gospel folks, but in my contact with them even they are still hung up on water rites as required or expected by God...
Water baptism has no part in salvation but is a testimony to the world of one’s faith and identification with his Savior Jesus Christ, as one of the SoFs says. IFBs and your average evangelical couldn't say it any better.


Certainly you run into many of us that deny baptism is a salvation issue as well as those of us who also agree works are not involved in saving grace in any synergistic way, but because we are from all denominations, I 'think' mentioning MAD (and if there happened to be any other denomination, but I am not aware of it), is helpful and meaningful. The contrast, imho, is important and I 'think' moves discussion. One does not have to be MAD to understand the alternate perspective here, so it was rather in hopes of service to you and the thread, that I brought it up. As I've said in the past, I appreciate the simplicity of MAD the most. Most can grasp its tenants and follow why such is deemed scriptural. I think viewing the simpler forms of systematic theology, actually helps others compare to their own and do not see that as a poor thing, but something serviceable and helpful. :e4e:

I've looked but I know of no one outside of MAD -- no one -- who does not believe a water rite, in some form, is not required or at least expected by God...and that makes it a work.

God's Truth
July 18th, 2017, 10:59 PM
A Catholic encyclopedia defines justification as,



It goes on to say how justification is obtained:



Terminology varies but this is the essence of what many non-Catholics here believe...that one cannot be justified by God without works (usually camouflaged by calling it obedience) because justification is not an act of God alone based on the work of Christ alone, but a PROCESS in which a person must cooperate with Christ by works, or at least "bear the fruit" of participating (which still amounts to works), or be lost.

The Calvinistic doctrine of Lordship Salvation, which has spread far beyond the boundaries of Reformed churches, is a distilled and highly refined version of this doctrine but it teaches basically the same thing: if a believer is not bringing forth the "fruit" of authenticating works, his salvation is dubious if not impossible.

@God's Truth (http://theologyonline.com/member.php?u=14521) is one professing non-Catholic with basically the same belief as taught by Rome but by no means is the only one. Most on TOL hold to some form of it. MADs are almost the only ones who repudiate any such belief.

So you think that since I preach that we have to do what Jesus says to do to be saved that it makes me like a Catholic?

Catholics do things God says not to do, so how do you ever get that obeying Jesus and preaching obedience is what the Catholics do?

You claim you are doing right by going against the Catholics who claim to do something. So you throw out the baby with the bath water!

musterion
July 19th, 2017, 04:51 AM
So you think that since I preach that we have to do what Jesus says to do to be saved that it makes me like a Catholic?

Yes. Now be silent, silly woman. You disobey Christ by presuming to teach men.

God's Truth
July 19th, 2017, 10:21 AM
Yes. Now be silent, silly woman. You disobey Christ by presuming to teach men.

What else you got, since you don't have the truth. I know you would be afraid to say that to me in person. What kind of man does this make you?

lol

musterion
July 19th, 2017, 10:29 AM
I know you would be afraid to say that to me in person.

I absolutely would say that to you in person, if you were presuming to tell men what doctrines to believe, as you do here.

The fact that you even need to be reminded that you have no Biblical ground to preach doctrine to men shows that you don't actually believe God's Word.

Why do you not obey the Bible?

jsanford108
July 19th, 2017, 09:15 PM
The fact that you even need to be reminded that you have no Biblical ground to preach doctrine to men shows that you don't actually believe God's Word.

Why do you not obey the Bible?

Who gives you authority to preach doctrine? Or any authority at all?

When Christians are told to deliver the gospel, I do not recall it saying "only men." In fact, it says "brothers and sisters."

Women can have knowledge of doctrine. Women, as teachers of households, are called to teach objective truths. Objective truths, are what we educated people, call "facts." If you dispute a fact, you are wrong. No matter if you are male or female.

I am not saying women should be priests. As a matter of fact, only one group makes this declaration (Catholics/Orthodox), adhering to the sacred traditions established in the Old Testament, and affirmed in the New. But that does not mean women are excluded from being educated in, and educators of, doctrine.

In essence, you are wrong. And you are arguing from a fallacy of authority.


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musterion
July 19th, 2017, 09:55 PM
Who gives you authority to preach doctrine? Or any authority at all?

When Christians are told to deliver the gospel, I do not recall it saying "only men." In fact, it says "brothers and sisters."

Women can have knowledge of doctrine. Women, as teachers of households, are called to teach objective truths. Objective truths, are what we educated people, call "facts." If you dispute a fact, you are wrong. No matter if you are male or female.

I am not saying women should be priests. As a matter of fact, only one group makes this declaration (Catholics/Orthodox), adhering to the sacred traditions established in the Old Testament, and affirmed in the New. But that does not mean women are excluded from being educated in, and educators of, doctrine.

In essence, you are wrong. And you are arguing from a fallacy of authority.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

TL/DR. Who are you?

God's Truth
July 19th, 2017, 10:44 PM
I absolutely would say that to you in person, if you were presuming to tell men what doctrines to believe, as you do here.

The fact that you even need to be reminded that you have no Biblical ground to preach doctrine to men shows that you don't actually believe God's Word.

Why do you not obey the Bible?

I don't believe you. I know you would be afraid.

God's Truth
July 19th, 2017, 10:47 PM
TL/DR. Who are you?

Do you always do that? I remember when you kept trying to accuse me of being other people too.

musterion
July 20th, 2017, 06:45 AM
I don't believe you. I know you would be afraid.

Why? Are you a large woman?

musterion
July 20th, 2017, 06:46 AM
Do you always do that? I remember when you kept trying to accuse me of being other people too.

Silence, woman. Go teach your children. Do you have children?

jsanford108
July 20th, 2017, 07:38 AM
Silence, woman. Go teach your children. Do you have children?

So you did read my post, despite replying "TL:DR." How dishonest.

It seems you dismiss anything and anyone that proves you wrong, based on the examples of this within this thread.

If you have a bugle, go ahead and sound "retreat."


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musterion
July 20th, 2017, 08:49 AM
No, I don't read your posts. If I ever did, I don't now. I see your name and ask, Who are you?

God's Truth
July 20th, 2017, 08:51 AM
Why? Are you a large woman?

Nope.

God's Truth
July 20th, 2017, 08:53 AM
Silence, woman. Go teach your children. Do you have children?

What are you doing on the computer acting like a tough guy? Go do yard work, make some money? How about go hunt for some food? You are a fraidy cat. All you are doing is trying to insult people and demean them. What kind of man tries to demean women? I know you wouldn't do that if you were physically in front of me.

musterion
July 20th, 2017, 09:19 AM
What are you doing on the computer acting like a tough woman? Go do yard work, make some money? How about go cook for some food? You are a fraidy cat. All you are doing is trying to insult people and demean them. What kind of woman tries to demean men? I know you wouldn't do that if you were physically in front of me.

musterion
July 20th, 2017, 09:19 AM
You turn the grace of God into law by insisting you have to obey until death, or burn. But you don't obey most of what Christ said.

Go sweep.

musterion
July 20th, 2017, 09:21 AM
Nope.

Oh, so you're actually a man.

Ask Mr. Religion
July 20th, 2017, 09:26 AM
Just means she is not a large woman as you had asked.

God's Truth
July 20th, 2017, 09:28 AM
What are you doing on the computer acting like a tough woman? Go do yard work, make some money? How about go cook for some food? You are a fraidy cat. All you are doing is trying to insult people and demean them. What kind of woman tries to demean men? I know you wouldn't do that if you were physically in front of me.

Just like a little fraidy cat hiding while mocking people.

musterion
July 20th, 2017, 09:28 AM
GT, I'm not the only one you've semi-threatened like that. You've told other people we wouldn't dare rebuke you if we heard you in person preaching what you do here.

Seriously...why would anyone be afraid of you?

God's Truth
July 20th, 2017, 09:30 AM
GT, I'm not the only one you've semi-threatened like that. You've told other people we wouldn't dare rebuke you if we heard you in person preaching what you do here.

Seriously...why would anyone be afraid of you?

If you are a man, learn how to act like a man.

You are trying to demean people while you feel safe behind your computer.

musterion
July 20th, 2017, 09:33 AM
If you are a man, learn how to act like a man.

You are trying to demean people while you feel safe behind your computer.

Ah, you didn't answer the question. Try this one. Do you agree with this?


"Justification comes about by means of faith in Christ, and in a life of good works lived in response to God's invitation to believe. "

Do you agree with that?

God's Truth
July 20th, 2017, 09:35 AM
Ah, you didn't answer the question. Try this one. Do you agree with this?

Do you agree with that?

Justification comes when one believes that Jesus' blood cleans them of the sins they repent of doing.

musterion
July 20th, 2017, 09:36 AM
Justification comes when one believes that Jesus' blood cleans them of the sins they repent of doing.

Is that repenting a one-time thing? Can one repent of ALL sins in one shot and have them all forgiven?

musterion
July 20th, 2017, 09:43 AM
GT?

God's Truth
July 20th, 2017, 09:44 AM
Is that repenting a one-time thing? Can one repent of ALL sins in one shot and have them all forgiven?

A person has to repent of their sins. Are you suggesting they knowingly keep some sins when they come to Jesus to be saved?

musterion
July 20th, 2017, 10:17 AM
A person has to repent of their sins. Are you suggesting they knowingly keep some sins when they come to Jesus to be saved?

That's what I asked you. Can a person repent of ALL sin, generally, and have ALL sins forgiven in one shot, and then confess only because they still sin in the flesh but God doesn't hold those again them (because they're forgiven)?

Or

Does the person have to keep repenting each sin by each sin, not missing even one, for the rest of their lives, else those sins won't be forgiven and they'll go to the Lake of Fire?

Which one do you believe?

God's Truth
July 20th, 2017, 10:25 AM
That's what I asked you. Can a person repent of ALL sin, generally, and have ALL sins forgiven in one shot, and then confess only because they still sin in the flesh but God doesn't hold those again them (because they're forgiven)?

Or

Does the person have to keep repenting each sin by each sin, not missing even one, for the rest of their lives, else those sins won't be forgiven and they'll go to the Lake of Fire?

Which one do you believe?

I don't go by either way, at least not the way you explain it.

A person is to repent of their sins when they want to be saved.

They should know that they will die to doing those sins and live to please Jesus.

musterion
July 20th, 2017, 10:47 AM
I don't go by either way, at least not the way you explain it.

Fair enough.


A person is to repent of their sins when they want to be saved.

And to you, 'repent' means 'stop sinning,' correct?


They should know that they will die to doing those sins and live to please Jesus.

What do they do later when they do commit sin?

God's Truth
July 20th, 2017, 10:58 AM
Fair enough.



And to you, 'repent' means 'stop sinning,' correct?



What do they do later when they do commit sin?

Repent means you have every intention not to sin.

After one is saved, they are to live to please God, and if they do sin, they can receive forgiveness and mercy.

jsanford108
July 20th, 2017, 01:58 PM
No, I don't read your posts. If I ever did, I don't now. I see your name and ask, Who are you?

....you don't know what you have read? That makes sense (sarcasm).

As for who I am, well...........

I'M BATMAN!


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Right Divider
July 20th, 2017, 02:32 PM
Repent means you have every intention not to sin.

Salvation by good intentions. :down:


After one is saved, they are to live to please God, and if they do sin, they can receive forgiveness and mercy.
If they still have good intentions?

musterion
July 20th, 2017, 07:29 PM
Repent means you have every intention not to sin.

After one is saved, they are to live to please God, and if they do sin, they can receive forgiveness and mercy.

So what you're saying is, there is no such thing as plenary/complete forgiveness of sin -- at least not before one dies and arrives in Heaven?

God's Truth
July 20th, 2017, 07:38 PM
Salvation by good intentions. :down:


If they still have good intentions?

Jesus knows everyone's heart.

How is it you don't know that?

God's Truth
July 20th, 2017, 07:42 PM
So what you're saying is, there is no such thing as plenary/complete forgiveness of sin -- at least not before one dies and arrives in Heaven?

I have no idea how you got that. Is that what you think of when Jesus says to repent?

Luke 13:3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

Brother Ducky
July 30th, 2017, 07:43 PM
The only people I have found that come close are the Clear Gospel folks, but in my contact with them even they are still hung up on water rites as required or expected by God... as one of the SoFs says. IFBs and your average evangelical couldn't say it any better.



I've looked but I know of no one outside of MAD -- no one -- who does not believe a water rite, in some form, is not required or at least expected by God...and that makes it a work.

Salvation Army?

God's Truth
September 30th, 2017, 09:11 AM
A Catholic encyclopedia defines justification as,



It goes on to say how justification is obtained:



Terminology varies but this is the essence of what many non-Catholics here believe...that one cannot be justified by God without works (usually camouflaged by calling it obedience) because justification is not an act of God alone based on the work of Christ alone, but a PROCESS in which a person must cooperate with Christ by works, or at least "bear the fruit" of participating (which still amounts to works), or be lost.

The Calvinistic doctrine of Lordship Salvation, which has spread far beyond the boundaries of Reformed churches, is a distilled and highly refined version of this doctrine but it teaches basically the same thing: if a believer is not bringing forth the "fruit" of authenticating works, his salvation is dubious if not impossible.

@God's Truth (http://theologyonline.com/member.php?u=14521) is one professing non-Catholic with basically the same belief as taught by Rome but by no means is the only one. Most on TOL hold to some form of it. MADs are almost the only ones who repudiate any such belief.

The Catholics are wrong on how to be justified by God.

The Catholics make up works and do things that God says not to do.

I however believe the scriptures that tell us what the Word says to do.

How were the Jews justified in the old testament?

They were justified by doing the ceremonial works.

The ceremonial works are works for the Jews to purify/justify themselves before God, the exact way God said too.

The Catholics do things God hates, and they tell others to do these things too or they are not justified.

How are people justified today? They are justified by doing exactly what Jesus says to do.

musterion
September 30th, 2017, 12:03 PM
How are people justified today? They are justified by doing exactly what Jesus says to do.

Then go and sell all you have.

musterion
September 30th, 2017, 12:04 PM
I have no idea how you got that. Is that what you think of when Jesus says to repent?

Luke 13:3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.

You dodged the question. I'm just asking you what you really believe.

IS there such a thing as knowing one has plenary/complete and permanent forgiveness of sin this side of judgment, or not?

God's Truth
September 30th, 2017, 12:56 PM
You dodged the question. I'm just asking you what you really believe.

IS there such a thing as knowing one has plenary/complete and permanent forgiveness of sin this side of judgment, or not?

Definitely.

God's Truth
September 30th, 2017, 12:57 PM
Then go and sell all you have.

Jesus doesn't tell everyone to do that.

musterion
September 30th, 2017, 03:50 PM
Definitely.

Congratulations, you now believe in unconditional permanent justification in Christ. How's it feel?

God's Truth
September 30th, 2017, 08:25 PM
Congratulations, you now believe in unconditional permanent justification in Christ. How's it feel?

I am forgiven because I wanted to be His child; and I repented and called on Jesus to help me.

Right Divider
October 1st, 2017, 12:18 PM
I am forgiven because I wanted to be His child; and I repented and called on Jesus to help me.
I, I , I .... you're very into yourself.

To "help you".... Jesus doesn't just "help" me, He does everything for me.

God's Truth
October 1st, 2017, 01:32 PM
I, I , I .... you're very into yourself.

To "help you".... Jesus doesn't just "help" me, He does everything for me.

You aren't disproving anything.

God's Truth
October 1st, 2017, 01:35 PM
Being saved is about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

musterion
October 1st, 2017, 05:35 PM
Being saved is about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Tell the truth: you've proved for years that you believe being saved means enduring in obedience, or being lost.

God's Truth
October 1st, 2017, 05:42 PM
Tell the truth: you've proved for years that you believe being saved means enduring in obedience, or being lost.

There is a realm of the Spirit. Do you understand what that means? Do you know how to be in that realm? How to get in that realm and stay there?

Nihilo
October 1st, 2017, 10:47 PM
I have no idea how you got that. Is that what you think of when Jesus says to repent?

Luke 13:3 I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.Repentance is given by God. 2nd Timothy 2:25 (KJV)

CherubRam
October 1st, 2017, 10:52 PM
The Catholics encourage good works from their members, but when it comes to other congregations, they discourage people of good works. I have seen it many times.

Nihilo
October 1st, 2017, 11:10 PM
Don't forget what happened, when the Lord Jesus said that repentance is given by God (John 6:65 KJV ; cf. 2nd Timothy 2:25 KJV):

John 6:66 (KJV)

God's Truth
October 2nd, 2017, 12:12 AM
Don't forget what happened, when the Lord Jesus said that repentance is given by God (John 6:65 KJV ; cf. 2nd Timothy 2:25 KJV):

John 6:66 (KJV)

Oh no, you have those scriptures wrong.

The scripture John 6:65 is about God cutting off the Jews who did not have faith when Jesus walked the earth, and then only allowing those who already belonged to God and had faith.

The scripture 2 Timothy 2:25 is about being gentle with those who oppose the truth, so that the one being taught about God does not get defensive and then hardened themselves from repenting and then being saved.


The scripture John 6:66 shows those without faith and they did not trust Jesus.

God's Truth
October 2nd, 2017, 12:13 AM
The Catholics encourage good works from their members, but when it comes to other congregations, they discourage people of good works. I have seen it many times.

The Catholics do things that God hates.

JudgeRightly
October 2nd, 2017, 05:35 AM
The Catholics do things that God hates.
Christians do things that God hates.

Nihilo
October 2nd, 2017, 07:34 AM
Oh no, you have those scriptures wrong.

The scripture John 6:65 is about God cutting off the Jews who did not have faith when Jesus walked the earth, and then only allowing those who already belonged to God and had faith.

The scripture 2 Timothy 2:25 is about being gentle with those who oppose the truth, so that the one being taught about God does not get defensive and then hardened themselves from repenting and then being saved.


The scripture John 6:66 shows those without faith and they did not trust Jesus.John 6:65 (KJV) and 2nd Timothy 2:25 (KJV) both teach that repentance is given by God. You've got it wrong.

God's Truth
October 2nd, 2017, 07:49 AM
Christians do things that God hates.

The have to repent of those sins, work at not doing those sins again. They have to train themselves. They have to be careful.

I can give you scripture references for all that if you want.

God's Truth
October 2nd, 2017, 07:51 AM
John 6:65 (KJV) and 2nd Timothy 2:25 (KJV) both teach that repentance is given by God. You've got it wrong.

God calls everyone to repent.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.


When Jesus was on earth, God did cut off and harden some Jews so they could not believe in Jesus while Jesus walked the earth, but when Jesus was lifted up, crucified, then all should repent and come to him.

Jesus came first for the sheep who already belonged to God by faith. Not all Jews belonged to Him by faith. God cut off the Jews who did not already have faith. Those Jews who had faith already belonged to God, but they now had to go through Jesus to remain God's. They were God's and He gave them to Jesus.

Nihilo
October 2nd, 2017, 08:25 AM
God calls everyone to repent.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.


When Jesus was on earth, God did cut off and harden some Jews so they could not believe in Jesus while Jesus walked the earth, but when Jesus was lifted up, crucified, then all should repent and come to him.

Jesus came first for the sheep who already belonged to God by faith. Not all Jews belonged to Him by faith. God cut off the Jews who did not already have faith. Those Jews who had faith already belonged to God, but they now had to go through Jesus to remain God's. They were God's and He gave them to Jesus.And still, John 6:65 (KJV) and 2nd Timothy 2:25 (KJV) both teach that repentance is given by God.

Right Divider
October 2nd, 2017, 08:55 AM
You aren't disproving anything.
You continue to prove that you are self-centered.

JudgeRightly
October 2nd, 2017, 09:02 AM
The have to repent of those sins, work at not doing those sins again. They have to train themselves. They have to be careful.

I can give you scripture references for all that if you want.

Do they have to do that on their own?


God calls everyone to repent.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

When Jesus was on earth, God did cut off and harden some Jews

What kind of hardening agent did God use to harden them?


so they could not believe in Jesus while Jesus walked the earth,

So you're saying He violated their free will?


but when Jesus was lifted up, crucified, then all should repent and come to him.

Jesus came first for the sheep who already belonged to God by faith.

Most of Israel had no faith whatsoever. They just liked seeing Jesus do miracles, and weren't really interested in what He came to offer.


Not all Jews belonged to Him by faith. God cut off the Jews who did not already have faith.

That would have been most of them.


Those Jews who had faith already belonged to God, but they now had to go through Jesus to remain God's. They were God's and He gave them to Jesus.

God's Truth
October 2nd, 2017, 01:22 PM
You continue to prove that you are self-centered.

I am centered on God.

God's Truth
October 2nd, 2017, 01:23 PM
And still, John 6:65 (KJV) and 2nd Timothy 2:25 (KJV) both teach that repentance is given by God.

You don't understand what it means because you did not study it on your own with the Holy Spirit. You are merely repeating what other teachers have said it means.

God's Truth
October 2nd, 2017, 01:31 PM
Do they have to do that on their own?

They are not on their own if they obey Jesus' words.




What kind of hardening agent did God use to harden them?

God hid it from their eyes. He made it so that they could not see and hear. He made their hearts hard. He gave them a spirit of stupor.


Luke 19:42 and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes.
Luke 8:10
He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

John 12:40
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

Romans 11:8
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."
Matthew 13:14
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

Mark 4:12 so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

Mark 8:17And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet see or understand? Do you have a hardened heart? 18"HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR? And do you not remember,



So you're saying He violated their free will?
God did that while Jesus was on earth. After Jesus was crucified, they could believe and repent.




Most of Israel had no faith whatsoever. They just liked seeing Jesus do miracles, and weren't really interested in what He came to offer.
Many Jews believed.
As for you speaking about miracles, Jesus told them if they do not believe what he says then to believe him on the miracles.




That would have been most of them.

Many are called few are chosen.

JudgeRightly
October 2nd, 2017, 02:40 PM
They are not on their own if they obey Jesus' words.

I meant do they do those works and work at being saved by their own doing?


God hid it from their eyes. He made it so that they could not see and hear. He made their hearts hard. He gave them a spirit of stupor.

Luke 19:42 and said, "If you, even you, had only known on this day what would bring you peace--but now it is hidden from your eyes.
Luke 8:10
He said, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that, "'though seeing, they may not see; though hearing, they may not understand.'

John 12:40
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn--and I would heal them."

Romans 11:8
as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."
Matthew 13:14
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

Mark 4:12 so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'"

Mark 8:17And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, "Why do you discuss the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet see or understand? Do you have a hardened heart? 18"HAVING EYES, DO YOU NOT SEE? AND HAVING EARS, DO YOU NOT HEAR? And do you not remember,

God did that while Jesus was on earth. After Jesus was crucified, they could believe and repent.

So what if they died in this "stupor"? Does that mean God is to blame for their going to Hell? Will they have a case against God when they stand before Him at the final judgment?

Because that's what you're saying.


Many Jews believed.
As for you speaking about miracles, Jesus told them if they do not believe what he says then to believe him on the miracles.

Believe in what?


Many are called few are chosen.

Right Divider
October 2nd, 2017, 02:54 PM
I am centered on God.
Sure you are. That's why you always tell us how Jesus accepts you because you "obey".

God's Truth
October 2nd, 2017, 03:31 PM
Sure you are. That's why you always tell us how Jesus accepts you because you "obey".

I do what he says. You too can do what he says.

Right Divider
October 2nd, 2017, 03:33 PM
I do what he says. You too can do what he says.
I'm saved by what HE DID. I trust HIM.

The gospel of the grace of God is about that HE DID, not what what YOU did.

God's Truth
October 2nd, 2017, 03:46 PM
I meant do they do those works and work at being saved by their own doing?


There are things we have to do before we are saved to get saved, and then after we are saved Jesus lives inside us to help us.




So what if they died in this "stupor"? Does that mean God is to blame for their going to Hell? Will they have a case against God when they stand before Him at the final judgment?
We are always being judged. There will be a time after they die too.



Because that's what you're saying.

Believe in what?

You will have to expound.

God's Truth
October 2nd, 2017, 03:48 PM
I'm saved by what HE DID. I trust HIM.

The gospel of the grace of God is about that HE DID, not what what YOU did.

What he did was to show you the way.

God did not nail all Jesus' teachings to the cross.

Right Divider
October 2nd, 2017, 03:57 PM
What he did was to show you the way.

God did not nail all Jesus' teachings to the cross.
Jesus was a minister of the circumcision to confirm the promises made to the FATHERS.

Look it up. It's in the Bible.

God has a specific purpose for the nation of Israel and He will fulfill it when He is ready.

I know the way.... TODAY.... it's the gospel of the grace of God.

God's Truth
October 2nd, 2017, 04:13 PM
Jesus was a minister of the circumcision to confirm the promises made to the FATHERS.

Look it up. It's in the Bible.



The promise WAS what He made to Abraham before He gave the law to Moses.

I am so glad to have this deep conversation with you. I have to go for now and hope we can continue to discuss this more.

musterion
October 2nd, 2017, 07:16 PM
The promise WAS what He made to Abraham before He gave the law to Moses.

I am so glad to have this deep conversation with you. I have to go for now and hope we can continue to discuss this more.

Why'd you ignore the second part of his post about how to be saved today?

God's Truth
October 2nd, 2017, 08:02 PM
Why'd you ignore the second part of his post about how to be saved today?

We are saved by believing and obeying. We are justified by Jesus' blood cleaning us and not circumcision and a special diet.

glorydaz
October 2nd, 2017, 08:09 PM
I am centered on God.

That's not God you're centered on. It's that big tall fence between law and Grace, and that thrill you're getting is just an old fashioned wedgie. :chew:

glorydaz
October 2nd, 2017, 08:10 PM
We are saved by believing and obeying.


Yep....there's that fence.

Law on one side and Grace on the other.

God's Truth
October 2nd, 2017, 08:37 PM
Yep....there's that fence.

Law on one side and Grace on the other.

Jesus didn't teach the old law, he fulfilled it. He gave a new law, the law of Christ, the law that requires faith.

God's Truth
October 2nd, 2017, 08:38 PM
That's not God you're centered on. It's that big tall fence between law and Grace, and that thrill you're getting is just an old fashioned wedgie. :chew:

Jesus destroyed any fence. No one is supposed to do any ceremonial works of the law anymore, ever.

Right Divider
October 2nd, 2017, 08:50 PM
The promise WAS what He made to Abraham before He gave the law to Moses.

I am so glad to have this deep conversation with you. I have to go for now and hope we can continue to discuss this more.
You're confusing the PROMISES made to the FATHERS with another PROMISE (singular).

Notice the PLURAL in BOTH cases!


Rom 15:8 (AKJV/PCE)

(15:8) Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:

God's Truth
October 2nd, 2017, 08:54 PM
You're confusing the PROMISES made to the FATHERS with another PROMISE (singular).

Notice the PLURAL in BOTH cases!


Rom 15:8 (AKJV/PCE)

(15:8) Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:

The promise was that there would be a blood relative to Abraham to sit on the throne.

That was promised to Abraham, and Isaac, and David...to all blood relatives until Jesus came.

steko
October 2nd, 2017, 09:02 PM
The promise was that there would be a blood relative to Abraham to sit on the throne.


Huh?

Right Divider
October 2nd, 2017, 09:07 PM
The promise was that there would be a blood relative to Abraham to sit on the throne.

That was promised to Abraham, and Isaac, and David...to all blood relatives until Jesus came.
You're another teller of fairy tales.

You are STILL ignoring the PROMISES (plural) made to the FATHERS (plural).

God's Truth
October 2nd, 2017, 09:43 PM
You're another teller of fairy tales.

You are STILL ignoring the PROMISES (plural) made to the FATHERS (plural).

The promise to Abraham was that of his Seed. It is about Jesus the Messiah, the King. David is blood related to Abraham, and the scriptures about a king is about Jesus.

glorydaz
October 2nd, 2017, 10:24 PM
Jesus didn't teach the old law,

He not only taught the "OLD LAW" while He walked among us, He magnified it.


Matt. 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


he fulfilled it. He gave a new law, the law of Christ, the law that requires faith.

"The law that requires faith", she says. Let's see what rules she has decided that entails. :Popcorn:

glorydaz
October 2nd, 2017, 10:27 PM
Jesus destroyed any fence. No one is supposed to do any ceremonial works of the law anymore, ever.

Thou shalt not do any ceremonial works of the law.

Thou shalt not covet any ceremonial works of the law.

Thou shalt not kill any ceremonial workers.

Ever.

God's Truth
October 2nd, 2017, 10:30 PM
Thou shalt not do any ceremonial works of the law.

Thou shalt not covet any ceremonial works of the law.

Thou shalt not kill any ceremonial workers.

Ever.

The works of the law are the ceremonial works.

God's Truth
October 2nd, 2017, 10:35 PM
He not only taught the "OLD LAW" while He walked among us, He magnified it.


Matt. 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.



"The law that requires faith", she says. Let's see what rules she has decided that entails. :Popcorn:

Jesus made changes to the old law.

That old law with the changes is our new law.

See Hebrews 7:12.

The new law is the law of the Spirit; see Romans 8:2, the perfect law James 1:25.

It is the law that gives freedom, see James 2:12.

It is the LAW that requires faith, see Romans 3:27.

It is the law of Christ; see 1 Corinthians 9:21, and Galatians 6:2.

The old law is obsolete as it is, but we have a new law, see Hebrews 8:13.

2 Corinthians 3:3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Hebrews 8:10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

glorydaz
October 2nd, 2017, 10:58 PM
The works of the law are the ceremonial works.

Wrong.


Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Look it up, big talker. You'll find the commandments in the "book of the law". Look up in Deut. 26 and 27. See why those "under the curse" is speaking of all the commandments and statutes...not the ceremonial works as you claim.


Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

You should know this because Paul specifically mentions "coveting" and the "commandment" in Romans 7:7-8

God's Truth
October 2nd, 2017, 11:04 PM
Wrong.


Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Look it up, big talker. You'll find the commandments in the "book of the law". Look up in Deut. 26 and 27. See why those "under the curse" is speaking of all the commandments and statutes...not the ceremonial works as you claim.


Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

You should know this because Paul specifically mentions "coveting" and the "commandment" in Romans 7:7-8

The whole old law went together, with the ceremonial works.

If one tried to be justified by one of the ceremonial works, then one had to do ALL the whole old law.

We have a new law and it does not have the ceremonial works.

There are other changes too.

Right Divider
October 3rd, 2017, 08:25 AM
The promise to Abraham was that of his Seed. It is about Jesus the Messiah, the King. David is blood related to Abraham, and the scriptures about a king is about Jesus.
Once AGAIN, oh deaf one.... READ Roman 15:8

There are PROMISES... PLURAL.... that's MORE than ONE.

Nihilo
October 3rd, 2017, 09:40 AM
. . . John 6:65 (KJV) and 2nd Timothy 2:25 (KJV) both teach that repentance is given by God.

You don't understand what it means because you did not study it on your own with the Holy Spirit. You are merely repeating what other teachers have said it means.Nope, you made that up.

God's Truth
October 4th, 2017, 02:28 AM
Once AGAIN, oh deaf one.... READ Roman 15:8

There are PROMISES... PLURAL.... that's MORE than ONE.

We are talking about the BLOOD DECEDENTS of Abraham.

Right Divider
October 4th, 2017, 08:15 AM
We are talking about the BLOOD DECEDENTS of Abraham.
Don't try to change the subject.