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CherubRam
July 5th, 2017, 02:40 PM
THE TIMES (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/the-times)

Police raid gay orgy at cardinal’s Vatican apartment

Quote: "Vatican police broke up a homosexual orgy last month in an apartment belonging to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith — the department charged with, among other things, tackling clerical sexual abuse."

Now what do you think of that?

CherubRam
July 5th, 2017, 02:41 PM
Link to story: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/vatican-police-raid-drug-fueled-gay-orgy-cardinal-apartment-article-1.3302974

CherubRam
July 5th, 2017, 02:43 PM
How are the Catholic people able to support the Vatican, with the exceedingly great negative reports on the Vatican?

CherubRam
July 5th, 2017, 02:49 PM
According to history this has been going on since the beginning of the Catholic Church.

Robert Pate
July 5th, 2017, 02:50 PM
THE TIMES (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/the-times)

Police raid gay orgy at cardinal’s Vatican apartment

Quote: "Vatican police broke up a homosexual orgy last month in an apartment belonging to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith — the department charged with, among other things, tackling clerical sexual abuse."

Now what do you think of that?

What else is new?

zzub
July 5th, 2017, 03:45 PM
What else is new?

Unfortunately Protestant vicars get caught as well. The ex Arch Bishop of Canterbury UK just had to step down over a gay child abuse cover up.

Calvinists tell us all thing are predestined by God. So it's God faualt! Okay thats not new.

zzub
July 5th, 2017, 03:54 PM
In my youth sex was an unmentionable in church. In the late 1990's it was ok to mention it as long as some sound byte relating to a married couple was also mentioned. Homosexuality was still an abomination back then.

In the UK the homosexual agenda was led by a guy named Peter Tatchil - very successfully. There was often 'outrage' when his group raised a commotion in some church they were visiting. Roll forward to the present day. Homo sexuality is now the norm and Churches are under pressure to maintain their stance. The majority (in the UK) are not doing that but embracing all aspects of homo sexuality - gay marriage, etc.

So, was what I had been brought up to believe from my youth, all wrong? Serious question, for me complicated by the fact that calvinists say God predestined homosexuals to be an abomination so he (God) could reprobate them.

Can anyone help me out on the rights and wrongs of all this? Please.

CherubRam
July 5th, 2017, 05:30 PM
What else is new?

http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013/12/gay-clergy-catholic-church-vatican

CherubRam
July 5th, 2017, 05:31 PM
Quote: "Tales of gays in the Vatican have been told for more than a thousand years. Pope John XII, who reigned from 955 to 964, was accused of having sex with men and boys and turning the papal palace “into a whorehouse.” While trying to persuade a cobbler’s apprentice to have sex with him, Pope Boniface VIII, who reigned from 1294 to 1303, was said to have assured the boy that two men having sex was “no more a sin than rubbing your hands together.” After Paul II, who reigned from 1464 to 1471, died of a heart attack—while in flagrante delicto with a page, according to one rumor—he was succeeded by Sixtus IV, who kept a nephew as his lover and made the nephew a cardinal at age 17."

CherubRam
July 5th, 2017, 05:37 PM
In my youth sex was an unmentionable in church. In the late 1990's it was ok to mention it as long as some sound byte relating to a married couple was also mentioned. Homosexuality was still an abomination back then.

In the UK the homosexual agenda was led by a guy named Peter Tatchil - very successfully. There was often 'outrage' when his group raised a commotion in some church they were visiting. Roll forward to the present day. Homo sexuality is now the norm and Churches are under pressure to maintain their stance. The majority (in the UK) are not doing that but embracing all aspects of homo sexuality - gay marriage, etc.

So, was what I had been brought up to believe from my youth, all wrong? Serious question, for me complicated by the fact that calvinists say God predestined homosexuals to be an abomination so he (God) could reprobate them.

Can anyone help me out on the rights and wrongs of all this? Please.

What does logic tell you?

CherubRam
July 5th, 2017, 06:52 PM
The Criminal History of the Papacy: https://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vatican/esp_vatican30a.htm

CherubRam
July 5th, 2017, 06:57 PM
Why do the Catholic people support the Vatican?

KingdomRose
July 6th, 2017, 07:52 PM
THE TIMES (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/the-times)

Police raid gay orgy at cardinal’s Vatican apartment

Quote: "Vatican police broke up a homosexual orgy last month in an apartment belonging to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith — the department charged with, among other things, tackling clerical sexual abuse."

Now what do you think of that?

This stuff has been going on for centuries. It just has been well-hidden. The church always has had a great amount of power, and has been partners with governments in many lands, to keep control over people. This truth is just now being revealed, particularly since the 1990s when people got tired of keeping quiet about it. I have read many things about gay parties at the Vatican and the surrounding city.

KingdomRose
July 6th, 2017, 08:09 PM
In my youth sex was an unmentionable in church. In the late 1990's it was ok to mention it as long as some sound byte relating to a married couple was also mentioned. Homosexuality was still an abomination back then.

In the UK the homosexual agenda was led by a guy named Peter Tatchil - very successfully. There was often 'outrage' when his group raised a commotion in some church they were visiting. Roll forward to the present day. Homo sexuality is now the norm and Churches are under pressure to maintain their stance. The majority (in the UK) are not doing that but embracing all aspects of homo sexuality - gay marriage, etc.

So, was what I had been brought up to believe from my youth, all wrong? Serious question, for me complicated by the fact that calvinists say God predestined homosexuals to be an abomination so he (God) could reprobate them.

Can anyone help me out on the rights and wrongs of all this? Please.

It is so sad that anyone would believe that God predestined homosexuals to be an abomination so that He could destroy them. How sick. God would never do such a thing, because He truly is a loving, merciful, just God. That homosexuality is an abomination to God is true, as is clear from the Scriptures (Leviticus 20:13; Romans 1:26,27; I Corinthians 6:9,10; I Timothy 1:10). Why would He purposely make someone to be homosexual if He hated it? I don't believe it for a second. If someone has the tendency to be homosexual, that person must be celibate. If he does not act out his desire in that respect, he will be innocent before God. I know homosexuals who are celibate because they love and respect God. They are truly moral people with admirable character.

Paul wrote to the Corinthians that "that is what some of you WERE." (I Corinth.6:11) These people stopped having sex with others of the same gender and remained "righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God."


(A helpful link: https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/bible-about-homosexuality/#?[search_id]=8eeabcab-d9b5-4cc8-833d-68673065b636 )

Stuu
July 7th, 2017, 04:35 AM
THE TIMES (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/the-times)

Police raid gay orgy at cardinal’s Vatican apartment

Quote: "Vatican police broke up a homosexual orgy last month in an apartment belonging to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith — the department charged with, among other things, tackling clerical sexual abuse."

Now what do you think of that?
Recreational drug use should be done carefully, or else not at all.

Stuart

CherubRam
July 7th, 2017, 10:45 PM
This stuff has been going on for centuries. It just has been well-hidden. The church always has had a great amount of power, and has been partners with governments in many lands, to keep control over people. This truth is just now being revealed, particularly since the 1990s when people got tired of keeping quiet about it. I have read many things about gay parties at the Vatican and the surrounding city.


That is the reason for this question: "Why do the Catholic people support the Vatican?"

zzub
July 9th, 2017, 09:09 AM
What does logic tell you?

That there is a lot of innuendo but not a lot of substantive proof to back it up.

CherubRam
July 9th, 2017, 10:34 PM
OK. So where are the Catholics?

Stuu
July 10th, 2017, 05:09 AM
OK. So where are the Catholics?
Evidently too busy to talk.

Stuart

CherubRam
July 11th, 2017, 12:12 AM
Recreational drug use should be done carefully, or else not at all.

Stuart

If you want to hear from me, then you will need to make better conversations.

Stuu
July 11th, 2017, 04:06 AM
If you want to hear from me, then you will need to make better conversations.
I can't imagine you will have been too busy indulging in these Vatican sacraments to post on TOL.

Stuart

jsanford108
July 11th, 2017, 01:27 PM
Quote: "Tales of gays in the Vatican have been told for more than a thousand years. Pope John XII, who reigned from 955 to 964, was accused of having sex with men and boys and turning the papal palace “into a whorehouse.” While trying to persuade a cobbler’s apprentice to have sex with him, Pope Boniface VIII, who reigned from 1294 to 1303, was said to have assured the boy that two men having sex was “no more a sin than rubbing your hands together.” After Paul II, who reigned from 1464 to 1471, died of a heart attack—while in flagrante delicto with a page, according to one rumor—he was succeeded by Sixtus IV, who kept a nephew as his lover and made the nephew a cardinal at age 17."

Gr8 b8, m8.

You ask where the Catholics are, here I am. I was not drawn by your silly post, but the comment on Calvinism. However, I will entertain the thread, just to try and educate.

Let us begin. What is this source quote from?

Second, have you ever researched Protestant sex scandals? GRACE, a group started by the Graham foundation, researches such statistics. And their results should be more alarming that a bunch of gays having an orgy.

Even better sources are secular. Especially since they are unbiased to denominations. And those statistics are quite challenging to your charges and claims.

Recently I posted such statistics in another thread. I never heard back from the instigator. Guess those facts, when brought to light, are much too damning to such falsehoods, akin to the ones you insist on spreading.

So let us get this going. Which is probably what those cardinals said.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

CherubRam
July 12th, 2017, 10:28 AM
Gr8 b8, m8.

You ask where the Catholics are, here I am. I was not drawn by your silly post, but the comment on Calvinism. However, I will entertain the thread, just to try and educate.

Let us begin. What is this source quote from?

Second, have you ever researched Protestant sex scandals? GRACE, a group started by the Graham foundation, researches such statistics. And their results should be more alarming that a bunch of gays having an orgy.

Even better sources are secular. Especially since they are unbiased to denominations. And those statistics are quite challenging to your charges and claims.

Recently I posted such statistics in another thread. I never heard back from the instigator. Guess those facts, when brought to light, are much too damning to such falsehoods, akin to the ones you insist on spreading.

So let us get this going. Which is probably what those cardinals said.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

We are not talking about an incident, we are talking about ongoing criminal behavior. We are talking about millions who have died, been tortured, or raped.

jsanford108
July 12th, 2017, 12:03 PM
We are not talking about an incident, we are talking about ongoing criminal behavior. We are talking about millions who have died, been tortured, or raped.

Then your post should reflect that. Rather than post about "gay orgies," indicating conversation about sex scandal and deviance, you should allude to corruption, the inquisition, etc.

Either way, I have all kinds of facts and statistics, or as reality labels them, truths.

CherubRam
July 12th, 2017, 02:16 PM
Then your post should reflect that. Rather than post about "gay orgies," indicating conversation about sex scandal and deviance, you should allude to corruption, the inquisition, etc.

Either way, I have all kinds of facts and statistics, or as reality labels them, truths.

It is my thread, so I added to it.

jsanford108
July 12th, 2017, 05:40 PM
It is my thread, so I added to it.

Well, you can't say a post is about one thing, but when questioned say it about another. That is called "dishonesty." But I digress. Let us proceed.

So which topic do you want to address first? You pick, and I shall address it.

CherubRam
July 12th, 2017, 08:07 PM
Well, you can't say a post is about one thing, but when questioned say it about another. That is called "dishonesty." But I digress. Let us proceed.

So which topic do you want to address first? You pick, and I shall address it.

Why do the Catholic people support the Vatican with its on going criminal history?

jsanford108
July 13th, 2017, 10:59 AM
Why do the Catholic people support the Vatican with its on going criminal history?

To say that there is a criminal history is kind of obvious. Especially since it has been around for 2000 years. The people are just that, people. They are not sinless.

We Catholics still accept Church authority, given to it by Christ.

No one in the Vatican has ever made a declaration on dogmatic or moral truths, that has disagreed with Scripture. Which is kind of miraculous given the scum that has passed through there.

The Catholic Church is the only one that has not changed or altered its positions on moral issues. It has not changed or altered its declarations of dogmatic truths.

If you compare the levels of corruption with various Protestant denominations, it shows that Protestants surpassed the level of criminal activity in less than a quarter of the time. That means that Protestants had exponential growth in criminal activity. And this is solely members of Protestant Clergy. Often times, former Catholic clergy get convicted, and people say "look at those Catholic priests again." But when it is a baptist minister, it is hushed and swept under the rug.

The only reason it is attributed to Catholics all the time is that Protestant denominations prefer to hide and promote their guilty clergy. Plus, the anti-Catholics have been successful at promoting this image of "guilty priests." We don't even have to look far for examples of this. MLK and Jesse Jackson, well praised for being seekers of civil rights, have numerous recordings and records of adultery being committed while on these "peace walks/talks." But no one mentions this. Why? Because it is damning to the claim that it is always Catholics.

If you want, I can provide the statistics. All of this is available through GRACE findings.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Stuu
July 13th, 2017, 03:28 PM
To say that there is a criminal history is kind of obvious. Especially since it has been around for 2000 years. The people are just that, people. They are not sinless.
I have only one comment to make in favour of the Roman church, that at least they believe evolution happened, and that people are essentially chimpanzees with more expensive toys. We are the products of primate evolution, and so they acknowledge that we aren't perfect, and shouldn't be expected to be.

Of course the wheels come off pretty quickly when they hilariously inject into that evolutionary story a mythical thing they call a 'soul' then claim the soul is broken from birth and offer the only legitimate fix shop in town, just like the worst car mechanics inventing engine problems to fix and charge you for.

Stuart

CherubRam
July 13th, 2017, 07:26 PM
To say that there is a criminal history is kind of obvious. Especially since it has been around for 2000 years. The people are just that, people. They are not sinless.

We Catholics still accept Church authority, given to it by Christ.

No one in the Vatican has ever made a declaration on dogmatic or moral truths, that has disagreed with Scripture. Which is kind of miraculous given the scum that has passed through there.

The Catholic Church is the only one that has not changed or altered its positions on moral issues. It has not changed or altered its declarations of dogmatic truths.

If you compare the levels of corruption with various Protestant denominations, it shows that Protestants surpassed the level of criminal activity in less than a quarter of the time. That means that Protestants had exponential growth in criminal activity. And this is solely members of Protestant Clergy. Often times, former Catholic clergy get convicted, and people say "look at those Catholic priests again." But when it is a baptist minister, it is hushed and swept under the rug.

The only reason it is attributed to Catholics all the time is that Protestant denominations prefer to hide and promote their guilty clergy. Plus, the anti-Catholics have been successful at promoting this image of "guilty priests." We don't even have to look far for examples of this. MLK and Jesse Jackson, well praised for being seekers of civil rights, have numerous recordings and records of adultery being committed while on these "peace walks/talks." But no one mentions this. Why? Because it is damning to the claim that it is always Catholics.

If you want, I can provide the statistics. All of this is available through GRACE findings.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Perhaps you are not aware of the Sabbath change, or that the Pope claims to be god on earth. Then there is the introduction of the Trinity, cross in place of stake, Hell is place of grave or Gehenna. And the list goes on and on.

jsanford108
July 13th, 2017, 08:23 PM
I have only one comment to make in favour of the Roman church, that at least they believe evolution happened, and that people are essentially chimpanzees with more expensive toys. We are the products of primate evolution, and so they acknowledge that we aren't perfect, and shouldn't be expected to be.

Of course the wheels come off pretty quickly when they hilariously inject into that evolutionary story a mythical thing they call a 'soul' then claim the soul is broken from birth and offer the only legitimate fix shop in town, just like the worst car mechanics inventing engine problems to fix and charge you for.

Stuart

Are you wanting an evolution/intelligent design conversation? An existence of
God conversation?


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jsanford108
July 13th, 2017, 08:28 PM
Perhaps you are not aware of the Sabbath change, or that the Pope claims to be god on earth. Then there is the introduction of the Trinity, cross in place of stake, Hell is place of grave or Gehenna. And the list goes on and on.

Sabbath change: the celebration of Sabbath being moved to the day that Christ arose started with the Apostles. The Catholic Church just declared it official.

Pope being God: this is a falsehood. Catholics don't claim this. The Popes never claimed this. This is just a typical anti-Catholic "fact" that gets spread, despite no evidence or logic behind it.

Trinity: the Trinity was taught by the apostles. It is found in Christ's teachings, and throughout the Scriptures. Once again, the Catholic Church just declared it official.

You are right. The list goes on and on. A list of falsehoods and claims that have no merit, evidence, or logic; all which are attempts to dispute the church established by Christ.


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Stuu
July 14th, 2017, 06:23 AM
Are you wanting an evolution/intelligent design conversation? An existence of God conversation?
I wasn't looking for any particular conversation. I think what I posted was relevant to your post, and if you want to make something of the half-gnawed bone I threw then go ahead.

Stuart

CherubRam
July 14th, 2017, 09:41 AM
Sabbath change: the celebration of Sabbath being moved to the day that Christ arose started with the Apostles. The Catholic Church just declared it official.

Pope being God: this is a falsehood. Catholics don't claim this. The Popes never claimed this. This is just a typical anti-Catholic "fact" that gets spread, despite no evidence or logic behind it.

Trinity: the Trinity was taught by the apostles. It is found in Christ's teachings, and throughout the Scriptures. Once again, the Catholic Church just declared it official.

You are right. The list goes on and on. A list of falsehoods and claims that have no merit, evidence, or logic; all which are attempts to dispute the church established by Christ.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)
Sunday Sabbath has nothing to do with Christ resurrection. Christ resurrection came after Monday evening.


Pope is God on Earth

April 30, 1922, Pope Pius XI said, “You know that I am the Holy Father, the representative of God on Earth, the Vicar of Christ, which means that I am god on Earth.” Revelation Four Views, A Parallel Commentary. pg 288

“God Himself is obliged to abide by the judgment of His priest, and either not to pardon or to pardon according as they refuse or give absolution.---The sentence of the priest precedes, and God subscribes to it.” Dignities and Duties of the Priest, Vol 12, pg 27.


“The Pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ.” Decretal De Translot Espiscop Cap


Pope Nicholas I declared: "the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man."
Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer Para

"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."
Catholic National, July 1895

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty"
Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894


Pope John Paul II:
"The mystery of salvation is revealed to us and is continued and accomplished in the Church...and from this genuine and single source, like 'humble, useful, precious and chaste' water, it reaches the whole world. Dear young people and members of the faithful, like Brother Francis we have to be conscious and absorb this fundamental and revealed truth, consecrated by tradition: 'There is no salvation outside the Church.' From her alone there flows surely and fully the life-giving force destined in Christ and in His Spirit, to renew the whole of humanity, and therefore directing every human being to become a part of the Mystical Body of Christ." (Pope John Paul II, Radio Message for Franciscan Vigil in St. Peter's and Assisi, October 3, 1981, L'Osservatore Romano, October 12, 1981.)

“Don’t go to God for forgiveness of sins, come to me” Source: “The Pope’s Apology” by Professor Author Noble


Pope Nicholas:
“I am in all and above all, so that God Himself, and I, the Viccar of God, have both one consistory. And I am able to do almost all that God can do. I then being above all, seem by this reason to be above all gods.” Source: “The Church Historians of England: Reformation Period” by Josiah Pratt, 1856, p 159

Nicholas also claimed that the Popes had the power to change the gospel itself, “Wherefore no marvel if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea, with the precepts of Christ.” Source: “Ibid”, Pratt, p 159


"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope."
On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."
Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous"

"The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth." Quoted in the New York Catechism.

These words are written in the Roman Canon Law 1685: "To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical."


Father A. Pereira says: "It is quite certain that Popes have never approved or rejected this title 'Lord God the Pope,' for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome in 1580 by Gregory XIII."

Writers on the Canon Law say, "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth."
Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V. - Cardinal Cusa supports his statement.


Roman Catholic Canon Law stipulates through Pope Innocent III that the Roman pontiff is
"the vicegerent upon earth, not a mere man, but of a very God;" and in a gloss on the passage it is explained that this is because he is the vicegerent of Christ, who is "very God and very man." Decretales Domini Gregorii translation Episcoporum, (on the transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Devretales, col. 205



We Catholics are the "Mother" Church and Our Protestant Daughters Are Harlots - (Rev. 17:5)

"It must always be clear, when the expression sister churches is used in this proper sense that the one, holy, catholic and apostolic universal church is not sister but mother of all the particular churches"
-- Cardinal Ratzinger.

Indeed we declare, say, pronounce, and define that it is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

"That there is only One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church we are compelled by faith to believe and hold, and we firmly believe in her and sincerely confess her, outside of whom there is neither salvation nor remission of sins.....FURTHERMORE WE DECLARE, STATE AND DEFINE THAT IT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY FOR THE SALVATION OF ALL HUMAN BEINGS THAT THEY SUBMIT TO THE
ROMAN PONTIFF [Porro subesse Romano Pontifici omni humanae creaturae declaramus, dicimus, definimus, et pronunciamus omnino
esse de necessitate salutis]."


"THE POPE IS AS IT WERE GOD ON EARTH, SOLE SOVEREIGN OF THE FAITHFUL OF CHRIST, CHIEF OF KINGS, having plenitude
of power." Lucius Ferraris, in "Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica", Volume V, article on "Papa, Article II", titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility", #1, 5, 13-15, 18, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.

• The Pope is God On This Earth

• The Pope is Immortal

• The Pope is Infallible

• The Pope's Crown Bears This Inscription - VICarIVs fILII DeI=666

• The Pope Has All Power in Heaven and Earth and Can Change Divine Laws

• The Pope Can Change, Add to, or Take Away From,
and His Word is Greater than the Holy Scriptures

• All People Must Be Subject to the Authority of the Pope
in Order to be in God's True Church

• All Who Separate From the Control of the Pope are Without Christ

• All People Must Be Subject to the Authority of the Pope in Order to be Saved

• Even if the Pope is in Error or Were Evil,
He Still Holds Power Over All Christ's Faithful!

• The Pope is Christ's Replacement (Vicar or Vicegerent) on Earth

• Supreme Papal Authority Comes From the Law of the Caesars
September 13, 2013 at 3:24pm • Like

These words are written in the Roman Canon Law 1685:
"To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power
to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical."


Pope John XXIII:
"The Saviour Himself is the door of the sheepfold: 'I am the door of the sheep.' Into this fold of Jesus Christ, no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff; and only if they be united to him can men be saved, for the Roman Pontiff is the Vicar of Christ and His personal representative on earth." (Pope John XXIII, homily to the Bishops assisting at his coronation on November 4, 1958Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, Boston, St. Paul Editions, 1962, par. 1556.)

"And you, venerable brothers, will not fail, in your teaching, to recall to the flocks entrusted to you these grand and salutary truths; we cannot render to God the devotion that is due Him and that is pleasing to Him nor is it possible to be united to Him except through Jesus Christ; and it is not possible to be united to Jesus Christ except in the Church and through the Church, His Mystical Body, and, finally, it is not possible to belong to the Church except through the bishops, successors of the Apostles, united to the Supreme Pastor, the successor of Peter." (Pope John XXIII, Address on the creation of three new dioceses on Taiwan, L'Osseratore Romano, June 29, 1961.)

jsanford108
July 15th, 2017, 08:43 AM
Sunday Sabbath has nothing to do with Christ resurrection. Christ resurrection came after Monday evening.


Pope is God on Earth

April 30, 1922, Pope Pius XI said, “You know that I am the Holy Father, the representative of God on Earth, the Vicar of Christ, which means that I am god on Earth.” Revelation Four Views, A Parallel Commentary. pg 288

“God Himself is obliged to abide by the judgment of His priest, and either not to pardon or to pardon according as they refuse or give absolution.---The sentence of the priest precedes, and God subscribes to it.” Dignities and Duties of the Priest, Vol 12, pg 27.


“The Pope has power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ.” Decretal De Translot Espiscop Cap


Pope Nicholas I declared: "the appellation of God had been confirmed by Constantine on the Pope, who, being God, cannot be judged by man."
Labb IX Dist.: 96 Can. 7, Satis evidentur, Decret Gratian Primer Para

"The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."
Catholic National, July 1895

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty"
Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894


Pope John Paul II:
"The mystery of salvation is revealed to us and is continued and accomplished in the Church...and from this genuine and single source, like 'humble, useful, precious and chaste' water, it reaches the whole world. Dear young people and members of the faithful, like Brother Francis we have to be conscious and absorb this fundamental and revealed truth, consecrated by tradition: 'There is no salvation outside the Church.' From her alone there flows surely and fully the life-giving force destined in Christ and in His Spirit, to renew the whole of humanity, and therefore directing every human being to become a part of the Mystical Body of Christ." (Pope John Paul II, Radio Message for Franciscan Vigil in St. Peter's and Assisi, October 3, 1981, L'Osservatore Romano, October 12, 1981.)

“Don’t go to God for forgiveness of sins, come to me” Source: “The Pope’s Apology” by Professor Author Noble


Pope Nicholas:
“I am in all and above all, so that God Himself, and I, the Viccar of God, have both one consistory. And I am able to do almost all that God can do. I then being above all, seem by this reason to be above all gods.” Source: “The Church Historians of England: Reformation Period” by Josiah Pratt, 1856, p 159

Nicholas also claimed that the Popes had the power to change the gospel itself, “Wherefore no marvel if it be in my power to dispense with all things, yea, with the precepts of Christ.” Source: “Ibid”, Pratt, p 159


"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope."
On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth."
Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous"

"The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth." Quoted in the New York Catechism.

These words are written in the Roman Canon Law 1685: "To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical."


Father A. Pereira says: "It is quite certain that Popes have never approved or rejected this title 'Lord God the Pope,' for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome in 1580 by Gregory XIII."

Writers on the Canon Law say, "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in heaven and earth."
Barclay Cap. XXVII, p. 218. Cities Petrus Bertrandus, Pius V. - Cardinal Cusa supports his statement.


Roman Catholic Canon Law stipulates through Pope Innocent III that the Roman pontiff is
"the vicegerent upon earth, not a mere man, but of a very God;" and in a gloss on the passage it is explained that this is because he is the vicegerent of Christ, who is "very God and very man." Decretales Domini Gregorii translation Episcoporum, (on the transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Devretales, col. 205



We Catholics are the "Mother" Church and Our Protestant Daughters Are Harlots - (Rev. 17:5)

"It must always be clear, when the expression sister churches is used in this proper sense that the one, holy, catholic and apostolic universal church is not sister but mother of all the particular churches"
-- Cardinal Ratzinger.

Indeed we declare, say, pronounce, and define that it is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

"That there is only One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church we are compelled by faith to believe and hold, and we firmly believe in her and sincerely confess her, outside of whom there is neither salvation nor remission of sins.....FURTHERMORE WE DECLARE, STATE AND DEFINE THAT IT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY FOR THE SALVATION OF ALL HUMAN BEINGS THAT THEY SUBMIT TO THE
ROMAN PONTIFF [Porro subesse Romano Pontifici omni humanae creaturae declaramus, dicimus, definimus, et pronunciamus omnino
esse de necessitate salutis]."


"THE POPE IS AS IT WERE GOD ON EARTH, SOLE SOVEREIGN OF THE FAITHFUL OF CHRIST, CHIEF OF KINGS, having plenitude
of power." Lucius Ferraris, in "Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica", Volume V, article on "Papa, Article II", titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility", #1, 5, 13-15, 18, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.

• The Pope is God On This Earth

• The Pope is Immortal

• The Pope is Infallible

• The Pope's Crown Bears This Inscription - VICarIVs fILII DeI=666

• The Pope Has All Power in Heaven and Earth and Can Change Divine Laws

• The Pope Can Change, Add to, or Take Away From,
and His Word is Greater than the Holy Scriptures

• All People Must Be Subject to the Authority of the Pope
in Order to be in God's True Church

• All Who Separate From the Control of the Pope are Without Christ

• All People Must Be Subject to the Authority of the Pope in Order to be Saved

• Even if the Pope is in Error or Were Evil,
He Still Holds Power Over All Christ's Faithful!

• The Pope is Christ's Replacement (Vicar or Vicegerent) on Earth

• Supreme Papal Authority Comes From the Law of the Caesars
September 13, 2013 at 3:24pm • Like

These words are written in the Roman Canon Law 1685:
"To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power
to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical."


Pope John XXIII:
"The Saviour Himself is the door of the sheepfold: 'I am the door of the sheep.' Into this fold of Jesus Christ, no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff; and only if they be united to him can men be saved, for the Roman Pontiff is the Vicar of Christ and His personal representative on earth." (Pope John XXIII, homily to the Bishops assisting at his coronation on November 4, 1958Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, Boston, St. Paul Editions, 1962, par. 1556.)

"And you, venerable brothers, will not fail, in your teaching, to recall to the flocks entrusted to you these grand and salutary truths; we cannot render to God the devotion that is due Him and that is pleasing to Him nor is it possible to be united to Him except through Jesus Christ; and it is not possible to be united to Jesus Christ except in the Church and through the Church, His Mystical Body, and, finally, it is not possible to belong to the Church except through the bishops, successors of the Apostles, united to the Supreme Pastor, the successor of Peter." (Pope John XXIII, Address on the creation of three new dioceses on Taiwan, L'Osseratore Romano, June 29, 1961.)

While this is a great collection of quotes, minus the bullet points (which I will address in a different reply), they come from anti-catholic sources, such as Arthur Noble, known for dishonest quotes and heavy revisionism. Every single one of these quotes is edited to give an alternate (and false) idea, altered, or completely made up (bearing no evidence of ever having been said or decreed).

I believe this shows the efforts and tactics of anti-Catholics. They completely edit or alter quotes in order to show their perverse ideals and applications. And if all else fails, they generate completely made up quotes and statistics. All of these are dishonest and not scholarly. There is no merit in this. Simple, honest, and unbiased research will yield a vastly different, and factual, representation of Catholicism (And maybe even a better understanding of Scriptures). To continue to believe and accept falsehoods, like those you presented, is ignorance; preferring perversions to truth.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

CherubRam
July 15th, 2017, 11:24 AM
While this is a great collection of quotes, minus the bullet points (which I will address in a different reply), they come from anti-catholic sources, such as Arthur Noble, known for dishonest quotes and heavy revisionism. Every single one of these quotes is edited to give an alternate (and false) idea, altered, or completely made up (bearing no evidence of ever having been said or decreed).

I believe this shows the efforts and tactics of anti-Catholics. They completely edit or alter quotes in order to show their perverse ideals and applications. And if all else fails, they generate completely made up quotes and statistics. All of these are dishonest and not scholarly. There is no merit in this. Simple, honest, and unbiased research will yield a vastly different, and factual, representation of Catholicism (And maybe even a better understanding of Scriptures). To continue to believe and accept falsehoods, like those you presented, is ignorance; preferring perversions to truth.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Much of those things are Catholic documents that can be found on the Internet.


The Ten Commandments

Protestant: First

Catholic: Second

Hebrew: third

1Pr. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

1Ca. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.

1He. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

2Pr.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and (keep my commandments).

2Ca.Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

2He.Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and (keep My commandments).

3Pr.Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

3Ca.Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.

3He.Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.

4Pr. (Remember) the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

4Ca. Honor thy Father and thy Mother.

4He.(Remember)the sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work. But the seventh day is the sabbath in honor of the Lord thy God; on it thou shalt not do any work, neither thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

CherubRam
July 15th, 2017, 11:27 AM
The Sabbath was given to mankind, and the only way to keep it holy is to keep that command.

And yes we do know what day it is.

jsanford108
July 15th, 2017, 02:45 PM
Pope is God on Earth

“Don’t go to God for forgiveness of sins, come to me” Source: “The Pope’s Apology” by Professor Author Noble

We Catholics are the "Mother" Church and Our Protestant Daughters Are Harlots - (Rev. 17:5)


• The Pope is God On This Earth

• The Pope is Immortal

• The Pope is Infallible

• The Pope's Crown Bears This Inscription - VICarIVs fILII DeI=666

• The Pope Has All Power in Heaven and Earth and Can Change Divine Laws

• The Pope Can Change, Add to, or Take Away From,
and His Word is Greater than the Holy Scriptures

• All People Must Be Subject to the Authority of the Pope
in Order to be in God's True Church

• All Who Separate From the Control of the Pope are Without Christ

• All People Must Be Subject to the Authority of the Pope in Order to be Saved

• Even if the Pope is in Error or Were Evil,
He Still Holds Power Over All Christ's Faithful!

• The Pope is Christ's Replacement (Vicar or Vicegerent) on Earth

• Supreme Papal Authority Comes From the Law of the Caesars
September 13, 2013 at 3:24pm • Like



Let us work through those things quoted above.

“Don’t go to God for forgiveness of sins, come to me” Source: “The Pope’s Apology” by Professor Author Noble: This is a phrasing by Professor Noble. This is not a quote from any priest or pope. This is a quote that the Noble Professor is attributing to Popes. As stated before, Noble is a devout anti-Catholic, and prone to a history of revision and false applications. Therefore, this quote, and its source, are not reputable.

We Catholics are the "Mother" Church and Our Protestant Daughters Are Harlots - (Rev. 17:5): This is once again, a quote being projected onto Catholics. This is not a direct quote from any biblical source, nor true Catholic Source. The Catechism of the Catholic Church often refers to Protestants as "our brothers and sisters in Christ." This quote is pure conjecture, and false. It also makes no real sense when compared alongside Catholic teachings.

"The Pope is God On This Earth:" This is a false statement. Obviously, the Pope is not God in any capacity. There is no teaching of Catholic origin that makes this declaration. Once again, we see a false attribution and projection, lacking of merit or evidence. The Pope is a representative of God, but by no means God himself.

"The Pope is Immortal:" This has never been declared by Catholicism. And is clearly a false (and silly) attribution. Especially since there are only two popes even alive today. This is quickly dismissed due to lack of logic and any evidence to the contrary.

"The Pope is Infallible:" This one is a little tricky. This is a "true" statement and attribution, but not in the scope and sense that Protestants declare and believe. The Pope is only "infallible" when making declarations or decrees on moral or dogmatic truths. Which, as I stated before, has never contradicted what is found in Scripture. As stated before, that is quite considerable, given the nuts that have been pope. These statements are made rarely, and are usually just re-declarations of things already taught. Examples of this can easily be found and traced throughout history. In any circumstance outside of making such decrees and declarations, the pope is not considered, by the Catholic Church, infallible. He never has been considered infallible outside of such circumstances. Like ever. So any claim to the contrary is false.

"The Pope's Crown Bears This Inscription - VICarIVs fILII DeI=666:" This is just preposterous and borderline insane. This is really people seeing the devil everywhere. I could say, "don't read the Bible! It talks about Satan! How evil!" My claim is true, it talks about Satan, but not in the way I mean. I can string letters together throughout the Bible and create the phrase "Worship and Hail Satan." But this is the work of a twisted mind, no? Both of those examples bear as much weight and merit as this silly claim. This is an active effort at "seeing the devil in the details."

" The Pope Has All Power in Heaven and Earth and Can Change Divine Laws:" Another false attribute and projection. (I think from now on, I may just say this phrase, as it seems to be a pattern). The Pope clearly does not have this power, because if he did, those corrupt popes could have sent people to hell, sent plagues, etc. Once again, no merit, evidence, or logic.

"The Pope Can Change, Add to, or Take Away From,
and His Word is Greater than the Holy Scriptures:" Once again, false. There is no claim of this, and this is actually contrary to what is taught by Catholicism. No merit, evidence, or logic. Another false projection.

"All People Must Be Subject to the Authority of the Pope
in Order to be in God's True Church
All Who Separate From the Control of the Pope are Without Christ
All People Must Be Subject to the Authority of the Pope in Order to be Saved:" This is taken out of context from older Catholic documents. While these claims were put forth, by various religious outraged at the dissension from the Church, they have since been amended (for example, it is not taught that only those under Catholicism are saved). Such claims were not "ex cathedra," (which is the term applied to when a Pope makes a declaration of moral or dogmatic truth), but the rants and beliefs of a few. So, while "true," it is grossly taken out of context.

"Even if the Pope is in Error or Were Evil,
He Still Holds Power Over All Christ's Faithful:" I give credit where it is due, your quotes did improve to at least minimal truths. While this statement is true, it has to be taken in context with "ex cathedra." Taken, with the full knowledge, that the Pope has never, and will never, make evil or erroneous declarations of moral or dogmatic truths. Obviously, there have been Popes in error and evil. There has never been any denial of that on our part. In fact, it is an excellent point that we, Catholics, always utilize. Paul was once evil. He may have not gotten along with other apostles, after being named Paul. But his declarations were always truthful, no? So, this attribution must be taken in context, and with full knowledge of what it means.

"The Pope is Christ's Replacement (Vicar or Vicegerent) on Earth:" This is a false wording. The Pope is the "Vicar of Christ," but that does not mean "replacement." "Vicar" has never been defined, connotative or denotative, as such. This is a perfect example of utilizing a small truth and perverting it to form a false "fact." This is classic alteration/false attribution.

"Supreme Papal Authority Comes From the Law of the Caesars
September 13, 2013 at 3:24pm • Like:" This is akin to the claim that Christianity comes from Sumerian stories. The whole "Son Saving Humanity" being linked to Sumerian worship of the "Sun saving man from darkness." It is just flimsy, without evidence, merit, or logic (addressing the claim about Sumerians). Likewise, the claim that Popes get the idea of Papal Authority from Roman Caesars is just ludicrous. There has never been any evidence of this. And the claim of authority actually originates from Scripture. If you want to make the claim that Scripture, likewise, Christ's commands and Word, bore no authority, then I can see this argument being a "logical" one, since there is no belief or authority to begin with. However, if the Bible has authority, then any doctrine arising from true rendering of Scripture, evidence by God's Eternal Word, is valid and truth. So, if you believe the Scriptures, then this argument is contradictory to Scripture. But, if you don't give authority to Christ's Word, then your point can remain valid, but that would lead to a different conversation all together.

In closing, most of your points were completely false. The few that were slightly true, were taken out of context completely, or had false projections placed on them, leading to false conclusions. I would always encourage a thorough, unbiased research. And subsequently, a brief review of any author of any research or claim always gives plenty of insight into the integrity of their published material/claims.

jsanford108
July 15th, 2017, 02:48 PM
Much of those things are Catholic documents that can be found on the Internet.


The Ten Commandments

Protestant: First

Catholic: Second

Hebrew: third

1Pr. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

1Ca. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.

1He. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

2Pr.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and (keep my commandments).

2Ca.Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

2He.Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and (keep My commandments).

3Pr.Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

3Ca.Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.

3He.Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.

4Pr. (Remember) the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

4Ca. Honor thy Father and thy Mother.

4He.(Remember)the sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work. But the seventh day is the sabbath in honor of the Lord thy God; on it thou shalt not do any work, neither thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The Catholic and Hebrew Ten Commandments are easy to find in the Bible. (Deuteronomy 5). There are a clear 10 listed. The Protestant Ten is a more broken up version, chosen from the passage in Exodus 20.

jsanford108
July 15th, 2017, 02:50 PM
The Sabbath was given to mankind, and the only way to keep it holy is to keep that command.

And yes we do know what day it is.

Is that a dispute? Unless you go on Saturday (technically, Friday evening to Saturday evening), like a Hebrew, and are observing all Deuteronomical laws, then you are utilizing a post-Christ Sabbath. Thus, such a claim as "Catholics changing the Sabbath," bear no weight.

CherubRam
July 15th, 2017, 06:29 PM
Let us work through those things quoted above.

“Don’t go to God for forgiveness of sins, come to me” Source: “The Pope’s Apology” by Professor Author Noble: This is a phrasing by Professor Noble. This is not a quote from any priest or pope. This is a quote that the Noble Professor is attributing to Popes. As stated before, Noble is a devout anti-Catholic, and prone to a history of revision and false applications. Therefore, this quote, and its source, are not reputable.

We Catholics are the "Mother" Church and Our Protestant Daughters Are Harlots - (Rev. 17:5): This is once again, a quote being projected onto Catholics. This is not a direct quote from any biblical source, nor true Catholic Source. The Catechism of the Catholic Church often refers to Protestants as "our brothers and sisters in Christ." This quote is pure conjecture, and false. It also makes no real sense when compared alongside Catholic teachings.

"The Pope is God On This Earth:" This is a false statement. Obviously, the Pope is not God in any capacity. There is no teaching of Catholic origin that makes this declaration. Once again, we see a false attribution and projection, lacking of merit or evidence. The Pope is a representative of God, but by no means God himself.

"The Pope is Immortal:" This has never been declared by Catholicism. And is clearly a false (and silly) attribution. Especially since there are only two popes even alive today. This is quickly dismissed due to lack of logic and any evidence to the contrary.

"The Pope is Infallible:" This one is a little tricky. This is a "true" statement and attribution, but not in the scope and sense that Protestants declare and believe. The Pope is only "infallible" when making declarations or decrees on moral or dogmatic truths. Which, as I stated before, has never contradicted what is found in Scripture. As stated before, that is quite considerable, given the nuts that have been pope. These statements are made rarely, and are usually just re-declarations of things already taught. Examples of this can easily be found and traced throughout history. In any circumstance outside of making such decrees and declarations, the pope is not considered, by the Catholic Church, infallible. He never has been considered infallible outside of such circumstances. Like ever. So any claim to the contrary is false.

"The Pope's Crown Bears This Inscription - VICarIVs fILII DeI=666:" This is just preposterous and borderline insane. This is really people seeing the devil everywhere. I could say, "don't read the Bible! It talks about Satan! How evil!" My claim is true, it talks about Satan, but not in the way I mean. I can string letters together throughout the Bible and create the phrase "Worship and Hail Satan." But this is the work of a twisted mind, no? Both of those examples bear as much weight and merit as this silly claim. This is an active effort at "seeing the devil in the details."

" The Pope Has All Power in Heaven and Earth and Can Change Divine Laws:" Another false attribute and projection. (I think from now on, I may just say this phrase, as it seems to be a pattern). The Pope clearly does not have this power, because if he did, those corrupt popes could have sent people to hell, sent plagues, etc. Once again, no merit, evidence, or logic.

"The Pope Can Change, Add to, or Take Away From,
and His Word is Greater than the Holy Scriptures:" Once again, false. There is no claim of this, and this is actually contrary to what is taught by Catholicism. No merit, evidence, or logic. Another false projection.

"All People Must Be Subject to the Authority of the Pope
in Order to be in God's True Church
All Who Separate From the Control of the Pope are Without Christ
All People Must Be Subject to the Authority of the Pope in Order to be Saved:" This is taken out of context from older Catholic documents. While these claims were put forth, by various religious outraged at the dissension from the Church, they have since been amended (for example, it is not taught that only those under Catholicism are saved). Such claims were not "ex cathedra," (which is the term applied to when a Pope makes a declaration of moral or dogmatic truth), but the rants and beliefs of a few. So, while "true," it is grossly taken out of context.

"Even if the Pope is in Error or Were Evil,
He Still Holds Power Over All Christ's Faithful:" I give credit where it is due, your quotes did improve to at least minimal truths. While this statement is true, it has to be taken in context with "ex cathedra." Taken, with the full knowledge, that the Pope has never, and will never, make evil or erroneous declarations of moral or dogmatic truths. Obviously, there have been Popes in error and evil. There has never been any denial of that on our part. In fact, it is an excellent point that we, Catholics, always utilize. Paul was once evil. He may have not gotten along with other apostles, after being named Paul. But his declarations were always truthful, no? So, this attribution must be taken in context, and with full knowledge of what it means.

"The Pope is Christ's Replacement (Vicar or Vicegerent) on Earth:" This is a false wording. The Pope is the "Vicar of Christ," but that does not mean "replacement." "Vicar" has never been defined, connotative or denotative, as such. This is a perfect example of utilizing a small truth and perverting it to form a false "fact." This is classic alteration/false attribution.

"Supreme Papal Authority Comes From the Law of the Caesars
September 13, 2013 at 3:24pm • Like:" This is akin to the claim that Christianity comes from Sumerian stories. The whole "Son Saving Humanity" being linked to Sumerian worship of the "Sun saving man from darkness." It is just flimsy, without evidence, merit, or logic (addressing the claim about Sumerians). Likewise, the claim that Popes get the idea of Papal Authority from Roman Caesars is just ludicrous. There has never been any evidence of this. And the claim of authority actually originates from Scripture. If you want to make the claim that Scripture, likewise, Christ's commands and Word, bore no authority, then I can see this argument being a "logical" one, since there is no belief or authority to begin with. However, if the Bible has authority, then any doctrine arising from true rendering of Scripture, evidence by God's Eternal Word, is valid and truth. So, if you believe the Scriptures, then this argument is contradictory to Scripture. But, if you don't give authority to Christ's Word, then your point can remain valid, but that would lead to a different conversation all together.

In closing, most of your points were completely false. The few that were slightly true, were taken out of context completely, or had false projections placed on them, leading to false conclusions. I would always encourage a thorough, unbiased research. And subsequently, a brief review of any author of any research or claim always gives plenty of insight into the integrity of their published material/claims.

Here are some documents for you: http://biblelight.net/666.htm

CherubRam
July 15th, 2017, 06:31 PM
The Catholic and Hebrew Ten Commandments are easy to find in the Bible. (Deuteronomy 5). There are a clear 10 listed. The Protestant Ten is a more broken up version, chosen from the passage in Exodus 20.


The Ten Commandments

Protestant: First

Catholic: Second

Hebrew: third

1Pr. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

1Ca. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.

1He. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

2Pr.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and (keep my commandments).

2Ca.Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

2He.Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and (keep My commandments).

3Pr.Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

3Ca.Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.

3He.Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.

4Pr. (Remember) the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

4Ca. Honor thy Father and thy Mother.

4He.(Remember)the sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work. But the seventh day is the sabbath in honor of the Lord thy God; on it thou shalt not do any work, neither thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

5Pr.Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

5Ca.Thou shalt not kill.

5He.Honour thy father and thy mother in order that thy days may be prolonged upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

6Pr.Thou shalt not kill.

6Ca.Thou shalt not commit adultery.

6He.Thou shalt not kill.

7Pr.Thou shalt not commit adultery.

7Ca.Thou shalt not steal.

7He.Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8Pr.Thou shalt not steal.

8Ca.Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

8He.Thou shalt not steal.

9Pr.Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

9Ca.Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife.

9He.Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

10Pr. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.

10Ca.Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods.

10He.Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ***, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.

Daniel 7:25. He will think to change times and laws.
Gods time and laws is the seventh day Sabbath and His commandments. Old and New Testament scripture has been changed to make people think that the commandments no longer apply.

CherubRam
July 15th, 2017, 06:35 PM
Is that a dispute? Unless you go on Saturday (technically, Friday evening to Saturday evening), like a Hebrew, and are observing all Deuteronomical laws, then you are utilizing a post-Christ Sabbath. Thus, such a claim as "Catholics changing the Sabbath," bear no weight.

The papacy admits to changing the Sabbath to Sunday.

Catholicism regarding the Sabbath


Different statements made by Catholic clergy regarding the Sabbath. Here are some quotes with their sources:

"It was the Catholic church which...has transferred this rest to Sunday in remembrance of the resurrection of our Lord. Therefore the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the (Catholic) church." Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About Protestantism of Today, p. 213.

"Sunday is our mark of authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact." Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.

"Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. 'The day of the Lord' was chosen, not from any direction noted in the scriptures, but from the Catholic church's sense of its own power...People who think that the scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy." St. Catherine Church Sentinel, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995.


Do you pay homage to the Catholics by keeping a Sunday Sabbath?

CherubRam
July 15th, 2017, 06:37 PM
'At the Vatican'.

I mean, come on now, at least try not to be like the liberal media and blatantly make a stupid lie of the news :Plain:

The act took place on Vatican grounds at a Apartment.

CherubRam
July 15th, 2017, 06:40 PM
The Vatican is a place of celibacy, don't conflate the mistakes of corrupt clergyman on the Vatican :Plain:

The Vatican is guilty of other things, like war and persecution.

Don't throw a grenade in the room you're in :chuckle:

We are not talking about an incident, but ongoing criminal acts.

CherubRam
July 15th, 2017, 06:42 PM
Documents here: http://biblelight.net/666.htm

CherubRam
July 15th, 2017, 06:51 PM
Vatican City is, well, an entire city.

In fact, it's a country- the region is technically split from Rome and the Swiss Army- as devout Catholics- defend it.

Little horn. The smallest nation in the world.


Capital: Vatican City
Area: 109 acres
Founded: February 11, 1929
Currency: Euro

jsanford108
July 15th, 2017, 06:54 PM
Here are some documents for you: http://biblelight.net/666.htm

This is a great example of people looking for the devil everywhere. Stringing together coincidences that have no real connect or basis.


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jsanford108
July 15th, 2017, 07:00 PM
The papacy admits to changing the Sabbath to Sunday.

Catholicism regarding the Sabbath


Different statements made by Catholic clergy regarding the Sabbath. Here are some quotes with their sources:

"It was the Catholic church which...has transferred this rest to Sunday in remembrance of the resurrection of our Lord. Therefore the observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay, in spite of themselves, to the authority of the (Catholic) church." Monsignor Louis Segur, Plain Talk About Protestantism of Today, p. 213.

"Sunday is our mark of authority...the church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact." Catholic Record of London, Ontario, September 1, 1923.

"Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. 'The day of the Lord' was chosen, not from any direction noted in the scriptures, but from the Catholic church's sense of its own power...People who think that the scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy." St. Catherine Church Sentinel, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995.


Do you pay homage to the Catholics by keeping a Sunday Sabbath?


I agree that it was the biggest undertaking and most controversial "change." But like I said before, it is the Apostles who implemented this. Due to Catholicism descending from the Apostles, Catholicism take credit and responsibility for the change of day from Saturday to Sunday.

Also, your quote from "Catholic Record of London" is not an actual Catholic source. The Olde Catholic Church, found in London is not really Catholic. It came after the Reformation. Just some basic history to educate.


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CherubRam
July 15th, 2017, 08:18 PM
I agree that it was the biggest undertaking and most controversial "change." But like I said before, it is the Apostles who implemented this. Due to Catholicism descending from the Apostles, Catholicism take credit and responsibility for the change of day from Saturday to Sunday.

Also, your quote from "Catholic Record of London" is not an actual Catholic source. The Olde Catholic Church, found in London is not really Catholic. It came after the Reformation. Just some basic history to educate.


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Christ and the Apostles, along with the Gentile converts; they al kept the Sabbath command.

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45 When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him.

46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us:...

48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

jsanford108
July 15th, 2017, 09:14 PM
Christ and the Apostles, along with the Gentile converts; they al kept the Sabbath command.

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45 When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him.

46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. 47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us:...

48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Review my posts. I said post-Christ, aka: Post-Resurrection. Meaning the Apostles practices the Sabbath on Sundays after the Resurrection.

Historical evidence, especially Roman Empire (pagan soldiers, civilians, and members of government) sources, bear witness to this. As do letters of early Christians.


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CherubRam
July 15th, 2017, 09:50 PM
Review my posts. I said post-Christ, aka: Post-Resurrection. Meaning the Apostles practices the Sabbath on Sundays after the Resurrection.

Historical evidence, especially Roman Empire (pagan soldiers, civilians, and members of government) sources, bear witness to this. As do letters of early Christians.


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Jonah 1:17
[ Jonah’s Prayer ] Now the Lord provided a huge fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Christ was buried Friday evening, the bible says so. The Sunday Sabbath has nothing to do with Christ resurrection.

jsanford108
July 15th, 2017, 10:27 PM
Jonah 1:17
[ Jonah’s Prayer ] Now the Lord provided a huge fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.

Matthew 12:40
For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Christ was buried Friday evening, the bible says so. The Sunday Sabbath has nothing to do with Christ resurrection.

So Christ didn't rise on the third day, as stated in Scripture? Interesting.


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CherubRam
July 15th, 2017, 10:31 PM
So Christ didn't rise on the third day, as stated in Scripture? Interesting.


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Three days and nights is after Monday evening.

CherubRam
July 15th, 2017, 10:36 PM
Matthew 12
Lord of the Sabbath
1. At that time Yahshua went through the grain fields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him," Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."
3. He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4. He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5. Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6. I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. 7. If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

The Day of The Lord is Saturday according to scripture, and the disciples were not harvesting the field, but getting something to eat. Jesus said they were innocent of breaking the Sabbath commandment. Gleaning is harvesting what is left over. The disciples were passing through the field, and they took only what they were to eat then, and nothing more. For more would have been to be harvesting the field for the gleanings.




Exodus 20:8. "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God.


Revelation 10. On the Lord's Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, 11. which said: "Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea."


Ezekiel 20:11. I gave them my decrees and made known to them my laws, for the man who obeys them will live by them. 12. Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the LORD made them holy.
13. " 'Yet the people of Israel rebelled against me in the desert. They did not follow my decrees but rejected my laws—although the man who obeys them will live by them—and they utterly desecrated my Sabbaths. So I said I would pour out my wrath on them and destroy them in the desert. 14. But for the sake of my name I did what would keep it from being profaned in the eyes of the nations in whose sight I had brought them out. 15. Also with uplifted hand I swore to them in the desert that I would not bring them into the land I had given them—a land flowing with milk and honey, most beautiful of all lands- 16. because they rejected my laws and did not follow my decrees and desecrated my Sabbaths. For their hearts were devoted to their idols. 17. Yet I looked on them with pity and did not destroy them or put an end to them in the desert. 18. I said to their children in the desert, "Do not follow the statutes of your fathers or keep their laws or defile yourselves with their idols. 19. I am the LORD your God; follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. 20. Keep my Sabbaths holy, that they may be a sign between us. Then you will know that I am the LORD your God."


Isaiah 8:16. Bind up the testimony
and seal up the law among my disciples.
17. I will wait for the LORD,
who is hiding his face from the house of Jacob.
I will put my trust in him.
18. Here am I, and the children the LORD has given me. We are signs and symbols in Israel from the LORD Almighty, who dwells on Mount Zion.


Deut 6:6. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
6:8. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

[Frontlets between your eyes, is your forehead, where your memory is.]

And so we have the commandments as a sign on our right hand, and in our foreheads. This being the seal or mark of God, His commandments, then what is the mark of that beast [nation] in the right hand and forehead? The right hand symbolizes works, and in the forehead is our memory of what we think.


Matthew 12:3. He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4. He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5. Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6. I tell you that one greater than the temple is here. 7. If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. 8. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."


Since the disciples were only getting something to eat, and not harvesting the field, then they were innocent. I also see scripture that says that they went to the synagogue or each other’s house on the seventh day. And Paul after preaching on the seventh day also instructs Christians to gather on the first day to do some work. So where can I find this Sunday commandment?


Romans 9:6. It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8. In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. 9. For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son."


Ephesians 2:11. Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12. remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.


Ephesians 3:2. Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, 3. that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4. In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5. which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. 6. This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.


John 19:28. Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." 29. A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. 30. When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
31. Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath[s.] Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath[s,] they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32. The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33. But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34. Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35. The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36. These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken," 37. and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."

The Burial of Jesus
38. Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jews. With Pilate's permission, he came and took the body away. 39. He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds. 40. Taking Jesus' body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs. 41. At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid. 42. Because it was the Jewish day of Preparation and since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there.


Luke 23:55. The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed Joseph and saw the tomb and how his body was laid in it. 56. Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath[s] in obedience to the commandment.


The first day of the week is Sunday, but the first day of the week after the Sabbath[s] is Monday. In keeping that commandment they did not go to attend Yahshua's grave on Sunday.

Before the lunar calendar was introduced in 167 BC, the Feast of Bread was always on the first day, Sunday.


The Feast of Bread.
Levticus 23:7. On the first day hold a sacred assembly and do no regular work.

jsanford108
July 16th, 2017, 07:01 PM
Three days and nights is after Monday evening.

So you are saying He rose on the fourth day.

Also, your very last quote, from Leviticus proves Sunday to be an acceptable Sabbath ("the first day of the week was Sunday;" your words not mine)


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CherubRam
July 16th, 2017, 11:25 PM
So you are saying He rose on the fourth day.

Also, your very last quote, from Leviticus proves Sunday to be an acceptable Sabbath ("the first day of the week was Sunday;" your words not mine)


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That particular Sunday no work was to be done. That means the women would not have attended his grave or body.

Luke 23:55. The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed Joseph and saw the tomb and how his body was laid in it. 56. Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath[s] in obedience to the commandment.

jsanford108
July 17th, 2017, 02:23 PM
I wasn't looking for any particular conversation. I think what I posted was relevant to your post, and if you want to make something of the half-gnawed bone I threw then go ahead.

Stuart

Nah. I'm good.


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