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Cross Reference
July 4th, 2017, 06:22 AM
Was the man Jesus God before He was Glorified or was His humanity simply speaking from a divine disposition?

I sincerely ask without a religious agenda.

daqq
July 4th, 2017, 12:11 PM
Was the man Jesus God before He was Glorified or was His humanity simply speaking from a divine disposition?

I sincerely ask without a religious agenda.

John 1:18a ASV
18a No man hath seen God at any time;

1 John 4:12a ASV
12a No man hath beheld God at any time:

Cross Reference
July 4th, 2017, 12:38 PM
John 1:18a ASV
18a No man hath seen God at any time;

1 John 4:12a ASV
12a No man hath beheld God at any time:

And your point is, what?

Truster
July 4th, 2017, 12:44 PM
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

jamie
July 4th, 2017, 12:48 PM
Was the man Jesus God before He was Glorified or was His humanity simply speaking from a divine disposition?


The Father speaks telepathically, we don't actually hear his voice.

The Father told Jesus what to say and what to do just like he did Jesus' apostles.

Cross Reference
July 4th, 2017, 01:12 PM
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


. . . as the "Word made flesh" now glorified by Him [made permanent] because of His obedience per Hebrews 2:10 and Phil 2:12 KJV.

Truster
July 4th, 2017, 01:18 PM
. . . as the "Word made flesh" now glorified by Him [made permanent] because of His obedience per Hebrews 2:10 and Phil 2:12 KJV.

"made permanent?"

The designation Eternal Son, Yah Shua, is in and of itself permanent.

daqq
July 4th, 2017, 02:29 PM
And your point is, what?

Those passages state what they state, (emphatically), and make my point for me. One either believes them, and incorporates what they say into his or her doctrine, or one does not.

oatmeal
July 4th, 2017, 03:17 PM
Was the man Jesus God before He was Glorified or was His humanity simply speaking from a divine disposition?

I sincerely ask without a religious agenda.

Jesus Christ is a prophet the son of God.

Every son has an origin and originator.

Jesus Christ did not exist before his conception and birth. Matthew 1:18

However, we read in John 1:1 That the word, the logos was in the beginning and that the word was God and the word was with God.

So we must ask, who or what is the word?

Since word, logos means message or more specifically the thought behind the words used in a message, we must look how God who is the logos choose to communicate himself to mankind.

We can see that the two major ways is by His written word and by the word in the flesh, or Jesus Christ.

Did God have a stash of Bibles in the beginning? Of course not, but did God in all his wisdom and foreknowledge know what He would author and have written as His word? Yes.

Was Jesus with God in the beginning? No, he was not, no more than God had a stash of Bibles inventoried to pass out. But in God's wisdom and foreknowledge He already knew that Jesus Christ would successfully do the Father's will.

Jesus Christ was in the foreknowledge of God. God speaks of those things which be not as though they were. Romans 4

Cross Reference
July 4th, 2017, 03:20 PM
"made permanent?"

The designation Eternal Son, Yah Shua, is in and of itself permanent.

After the fact, you are correct. However, the man Jesus was made vulnerable [by God] and had He failed we would not be here having this chit-chat.

Cross Reference
July 4th, 2017, 03:27 PM
Jesus Christ is a prophet the son of God.

Every son has an origin and originator.

Jesus Christ did not exist before his conception and birth. Matthew 1:18

However, we read in John 1:1 That the word, the logos was in the beginning and that the word was God and the word was with God.

So we must ask, who or what is the word?

Since word, logos means message or more specifically the thought behind the words used in a message, we must look how God who is the logos choose to communicate himself to mankind.

We can see that the two major ways is by His written word and by the word in the flesh, or Jesus Christ.

Did God have a stash of Bibles in the beginning? Of course not, but did God in all his wisdom and foreknowledge know what He would author and have written as His word? Yes.

Was Jesus with God in the beginning? No, he was not, no more than God had a stash of Bibles inventoried to pass out. But in God's wisdom and foreknowledge He already knew that Jesus Christ would successfully do the Father's will.

Jesus Christ was in the foreknowledge of God. God speaks of those things which be not as though they were. Romans 4

Check this out:

17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. Exodus 33:17-23 (KJV)

Side note: Read to see grace is merited and not unmerited as some believe it is.

Truster
July 4th, 2017, 03:40 PM
After the fact, you are correct. However, the man Jesus was made vulnerable [by God] and had He failed we would not be here having this chit-chat.

It was failsafe. Messiah actually stated, "I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do", Before He was taken to Golgotha.

Cross Reference
July 4th, 2017, 05:36 PM
It was failsafe. Messiah actually stated, "I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do", Before He was taken to Golgotha.

What you quote was said by Jesus AFTER He finished His mission; the conclusion of His faithfulness before His transfiguration on the Mt after which He came down and went to the cross to enable those who would be born again [John 20.22] to follow in His steps. . . and for the same reason[s].

Beyond that I can't figure out what you are trying to say in your comment.

Cross Reference
July 4th, 2017, 05:40 PM
"made permanent?"

The designation Eternal Son, Yah Shua, is in and of itself permanent.

Jesus had to be proven.

jamie
July 4th, 2017, 05:51 PM
Jesus Christ did not exist before his conception and birth. Matthew 1:18


Jesus means Savior and Christ means King.

Jesus Christ was foreordained King and Savior before the first Adam.

Jesus Christ is the last Adam.

"And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man." (1 Corinthians 15:49)

Truster
July 4th, 2017, 09:00 PM
Jesus means Savior and Christ means King.

Jesus Christ was foreordained King and Savior before the first Adam.

Jesus Christ is the last Adam.

"And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man." (1 Corinthians 15:49)

Christ is from the Greek Christo which means anointed. The Greeks considered all their idols to be anointed and so to count Yah Shua amongst idols is an abomination. The term in Hebrew is mashiach which is transliterated correctly as Messiah and is a title meaning Anointed of Yah Veh.

Truster
July 4th, 2017, 09:01 PM
Jesus had to be proven.

Heretic

jsanford108
July 4th, 2017, 09:38 PM
The Father speaks telepathically, we don't actually hear his voice.

The Father told Jesus what to say and what to do just like he did Jesus' apostles.

Can you sufficiently prove this? And from what source?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

jsanford108
July 4th, 2017, 09:49 PM
Jesus Christ is a prophet the son of God.

Every son has an origin and originator.

Jesus Christ did not exist before his conception and birth. Matthew 1:18

However, we read in John 1:1 That the word, the logos was in the beginning and that the word was God and the word was with God.

So we must ask, who or what is the word?

Since word, logos means message or more specifically the thought behind the words used in a message, we must look how God who is the logos choose to communicate himself to mankind.

We can see that the two major ways is by His written word and by the word in the flesh, or Jesus Christ.

Did God have a stash of Bibles in the beginning? Of course not, but did God in all his wisdom and foreknowledge know what He would author and have written as His word? Yes.

Was Jesus with God in the beginning? No, he was not, no more than God had a stash of Bibles inventoried to pass out. But in God's wisdom and foreknowledge He already knew that Jesus Christ would successfully do the Father's will.

Jesus Christ was in the foreknowledge of God. God speaks of those things which be not as though they were. Romans 4

John's Gospel proves all of this wrong. It literally points (literally being a reference to actual literature) to Christ being the Word Incarnate. Thus, you entire prose on Jesus not being in the Beginning with God is entirely false.

The analogy with a Bible stash is also completely off. The Word of God is more than just the Bible: it is reality itself. When God speaks (hence, the "Word of God") reality itself comes into being.

Furthermore, in Genesis, God says "Let us make man in our image." God could not have been speaking to the Angels, for they are not like man. Nor is their image static. However, Christ, being One with God, who would become man, would logically have an image, that man could be formed in likeness of. Thus, from before the inception of man, Christ was with God, as supported and derived from the Scriptures.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

beameup
July 4th, 2017, 10:00 PM
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him
was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:1-3

Cross Reference
July 5th, 2017, 04:46 AM
Can you sufficiently prove this? And from what source?

Given Jesus' submission to the Father, why would you believe otherwise? He was made a little lower than the angels.

"Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." John 8:28 (KJV)

Cross Reference
July 5th, 2017, 05:02 AM
John's Gospel proves all of this wrong. It literally points (literally being a reference to actual literature) to Christ being the Word Incarnate. Thus, you entire prose on Jesus not being in the Beginning with God is entirely false.

Jsands, We have to remember when John understood these things about Jesus that he write about them as he did. Certainly John did not understand before the cross leading up to the ascension and then to wait for the Promise of the Father [Pentecost].


The analogy with a Bible stash is also completely off. The Word of God is more than just the Bible: it is reality itself. When God speaks (hence, the "Word of God") reality itself comes into being.

Try thinking of the "Word of God" as being us using our "lips" to speak/express our hearts desire[s], et al. cf Exo.33:20-23 KJV. cf with Paul's conversion experience on the road.


Furthermore, in Genesis, God says "Let us make man in our image." God could not have been speaking to the Angels, for they are not like man. Nor is their image static. However, Christ, being One with God, who would become man, would logically have an image, that man could be formed in likeness of. Thus, from before the inception of man, Christ was with God, as supported and derived from the Scriptures.

I believe you mean to say that the "Word of God" was with God from the beginning. Christ being a title given Jesus, the son, the man who needed to be proven that by it [process] would "win" the victory for both God and mankind. . . :) Sound reasonable?

Cross Reference
July 5th, 2017, 05:32 AM
Jsands, please exegete this passage:

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:5-11 (KJV)

jamie
July 5th, 2017, 08:22 AM
Christ is from the Greek Christo which means anointed.


Jesus was anointed by the Spirit. He is destined to be Israel's king.

In Daniel the word Messiah means anointed, and anointed means anointed.

By Yah Shua are you referring to Shiloh who is to come?

If so why not just say Shiloh?

Truster
July 5th, 2017, 08:35 AM
Jesus was anointed by the Spirit. He is destined to be Israel's king.

In Daniel the word Messiah means anointed, and anointed means anointed.

By Yah Shua are you referring to Shiloh who is to come?

If so why not just say Shiloh?

It must be your role in life to spread ignorance.

jamie
July 5th, 2017, 08:46 AM
It must be your role in life to spread ignorance.


Why do you consider scripture ignorance?

Wait, I get it, you didn't know the person Shiloh is the name of he who is to come.

Well, live and learn.

Truster
July 5th, 2017, 08:49 AM
Why do you consider scripture ignorance?

Wait, I get it, you didn't the person Shiloh is the name of he who is to come.

Well, live and learn.

Stop trying to explain things you have no comprehension of.

jamie
July 5th, 2017, 09:01 AM
Can you sufficiently prove this? And from what source?


"Jesus answered and said to him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.'" (Matthew 16:17)

In what way was the Father's message revealed?

Hint: It was not by smartphone. The internet was not yet invented.

Some people can hear with more than their ears.

"But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you." (Matthew 10:19-20)

The Spirit of the Father is holy and is sometimes referred to as the holy Spirit.

jamie
July 5th, 2017, 09:13 AM
Can you sufficiently prove this?


Paul said, "Prove all things, hold fast that which is good."

It's your responsibility to prove whatever it is you believe, not mine.

jamie
July 5th, 2017, 09:15 AM
Stop trying to explain things you have no comprehension of.


Stop trying to quench God's Spirit. Why not work with him?

It would be to your advantage.

Truster
July 5th, 2017, 09:17 AM
Stop trying to quench God's Spirit. Why not work with him?

It would be to your advantage.

You have no idea beyond your parrot fashion use of words.

nikolai_42
July 5th, 2017, 10:14 AM
Was the man Jesus God before He was Glorified or was His humanity simply speaking from a divine disposition?

I sincerely ask without a religious agenda.

I think a quote from a passage you have put up makes it pretty clear that He had to be :

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Philippians 2:5-7

He took on the form of a servant even though He was in the form of God. If He actually became a servant, then I can't see how He wasn't already actually God.

And as to His glory, whose glory is in view here :

But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
John 12:37-42

That "He" certainly refers to Christ. He was glorified before He humbled Himself. But He was also glorified before Creation :

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
John 17:4-5

Ask Mr. Religion
July 5th, 2017, 01:25 PM
Was the man Jesus God before He was Glorified or was His humanity simply speaking from a divine disposition?

I sincerely ask without a religious agenda.
Our Lord was fully God and fully man in an indissoluble union whereby the second subsistence of the Trinity assumed a human nature that cannot be separated, divided, mixed, or confused.

One can best understand this mystical union (together united in one distinguishable subsistence) by examining what it is not, thus from the process of elimination determine what it must be.

The mystical union of the divine and human natures of Our Lord is not:

1. a denial that our Lord was truly God (Ebionites, Elkasites, Arians);
2. a dissimilar or different substance (anomoios) with the Father (semi-Arianism);
3. a denial that our Lord had a genuine human soul (Apollinarians);
4. a denial of a distinct subsistence in the Trinity (Dynamic Monarchianism);
5. God acting merely in the forms of the Son and Spirit (Modalistic Monarchianism/Sabellianism/United Pentecostal Church);
6. a mixture or change when the two natures were united (Eutychianism/Monophysitism);
7. two distinct subsistences (often called persons) (Nestorianism);
8. a denial of the true humanity of Christ (docetism);
9. a view that God the Son laid aside all or some of His divine attributes (kenoticism);
10. a view that there was a communication of the attributes between the divine and human natures (Lutheranism, with respect to the Lord's Supper); and
11. a view that our Lord existed independently as a human before God entered His body (Adoptionism).

The Chalcedonian Definition (http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/chalcedon.html) is one of the few statements that all of orthodox Christendom recognizes as the most faithful summary of the teachings of the Scriptures on the matter of the Incarnate Christ. The Chalcedonian Definition was the answer to the many heterodoxies identified above during the third century.

Please review the following to better understand what was taking place at the Incarnation:

http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/anhypostasis-what-kind-of-flesh-did-jesus-take

http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/enhypostasis-what-kind-of-flesh-did-the-word-become

AMR

jamie
July 5th, 2017, 03:25 PM
Our Lord was fully God and fully man in an indissoluble union whereby the second subsistence of the Trinity assumed a human nature that cannot be separated, divided, mixed, or confused.


Yes, we know that. Jesus was made just like us.

"Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren" (Hebrews 2:17)

oatmeal
July 5th, 2017, 04:25 PM
Check this out:

17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. Exodus 33:17-23 (KJV)

Side note: Read to see grace is merited and not unmerited as some believe it is.

Please show me and explain to me the verse that supports your conclusion,

For that matter at hand, could you explain what relation your reply has with my post?

It is up to God and God alone to decide to whom He will be gracious to.

"will be gracious to whom I will be gracious,"

Where in those words that God spoke does any one else's will but God's enter in to His choice to be gracious?

We cannot earn grace, it is therefore unmerited, if grace were by works then grace is no more grace but debt.

God does not owe it to anyone to give grace, yet God is most definitely gracious

oatmeal
July 5th, 2017, 04:38 PM
John's Gospel proves all of this wrong. It literally points (literally being a reference to actual literature) to Christ being the Word Incarnate. Thus, you entire prose on Jesus not being in the Beginning with God is entirely false.

The analogy with a Bible stash is also completely off. The Word of God is more than just the Bible: it is reality itself. When God speaks (hence, the "Word of God") reality itself comes into being.

Furthermore, in Genesis, God says "Let us make man in our image." God could not have been speaking to the Angels, for they are not like man. Nor is their image static. However, Christ, being One with God, who would become man, would logically have an image, that man could be formed in likeness of. Thus, from before the inception of man, Christ was with God, as supported and derived from the Scriptures.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Yes, logos refers to Christ, even as it refers to God and to scripture. That is plain to see.

Does God want us to know him? Yes, he does. What God's plan to communicate His nature to others? By revelation to the holy men of God that spoke and wrote the words in the word that God wanted spoken and written.

But as the poem states I would rather see a sermon than hear one, thus God provided a man who would willfully and freely live God's words in His word perfectly, His son did that. Thus we have God's word in the flesh. This was God's plan that He announced to the Devil, the serpent, in Genesis 3:15

Of course, the existence of God and some aspects of His nature are revealed in the heaven and the earth that He created... but that was not enough, God wanted a written record for our benefit.

How does anyone know about God? Did Jesus appear to you to teach you all you need to know about God? He has not appeared to me. Oh, well. But what I do have is God's word, His logos in writing, that is how I know Jesus Christ His son and thus I learn from the son's life who His God and my God, His Father and my Father is

As I stated, Christ was with God in God's foreknowledge, God does have perfect foreknowledge, and He knows all His works from the beginning.

Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

The son of God, Jesus Christ is the son of God, not God the son.

All sons have a beginning and an origination. Jesus Christ though planned by and foreknown by God His Father did not exist until he was conceived and born

oatmeal
July 5th, 2017, 04:39 PM
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him
was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:1-3

In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him
was not any thing made that was made.

John 1:1-3

Cross Reference
July 6th, 2017, 04:45 AM
Our Lord was fully God and fully man in an indissoluble union whereby the second subsistence of the Trinity assumed a human nature that cannot be separated, divided, mixed, or confused.

One can best understand this mystical union (together united in one distinguishable subsistence) by examining what it is not, thus from the process of elimination determine what it must be.

The mystical union of the divine and human natures of Our Lord is not:

1. a denial that our Lord was truly God (Ebionites, Elkasites, Arians);
2. a dissimilar or different substance (anomoios) with the Father (semi-Arianism);
3. a denial that our Lord had a genuine human soul (Apollinarians);
4. a denial of a distinct subsistence in the Trinity (Dynamic Monarchianism);
5. God acting merely in the forms of the Son and Spirit (Modalistic Monarchianism/Sabellianism/United Pentecostal Church);
6. a mixture or change when the two natures were united (Eutychianism/Monophysitism);
7. two distinct subsistences (often called persons) (Nestorianism);
8. a denial of the true humanity of Christ (docetism);
9. a view that God the Son laid aside all or some of His divine attributes (kenoticism);
10. a view that there was a communication of the attributes between the divine and human natures (Lutheranism, with respect to the Lord's Supper); and
11. a view that our Lord existed independently as a human before God entered His body (Adoptionism).

The Chalcedonian Definition (http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=http://www.reformed.org/documents/chalcedon.html) is one of the few statements that all of orthodox Christendom recognizes as the most faithful summary of the teachings of the Scriptures on the matter of the Incarnate Christ. The Chalcedonian Definition was the answer to the many heterodoxies identified above during the third century.

Please review the following to better understand what was taking place at the Incarnation:

http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/anhypostasis-what-kind-of-flesh-did-jesus-take

http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/enhypostasis-what-kind-of-flesh-did-the-word-become

AMR

Thank you Dr Sproul.

Jesus was also tutored for 30 years, baptized in water and with the Holy Spirit before being sent into the world. After He finished His business, He was glorified. Instead of continuing back into Glory He came down off the mountain to die the cross to make it possible for you to do the same thing. Now where do you want to go from here? Do you really want to make this all to be about saving man from Hell, making a way for to go to Heaven when he dies, or is there something else much deeper for us to understand about why God created man, you never speak of like Jesus was God's representation of what normal man was intended to be and use that as the foundation of the "Why" of Jesus God could not do because He was God?

Cross Reference
July 6th, 2017, 05:03 AM
The son of God, Jesus Christ is the son of God, not God the son.

And the Jesus, the man, born of Mary was, Glorified. What does that mean because Jesus had already believed Himself eqhal to God?


All sons have a beginning and an origination. Jesus Christ though planned by and foreknown by God His Father did not exist until he was conceived and born.

I agree. Jesus was the Body that was prepared for the "Word of God" to "inhabit" not to take charge of but to submit to. When Jesus understood that He inturn, submitted to the "Word of God". They walked in "equality" with Jesus, the man, having the final say, though it was never different from the Will of the Father, Gethsemane being His home away from Home.

Jesus, the man, WON the victory the night before He hung the cross!! He won it completely as a MAN.

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." Isaiah 9:6-7 (KJV)

"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;" Philippians 3:10 (KJV) cf John 17:3.


"I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing". Philippians 3:14-16 (KJV)

Cross Reference
July 6th, 2017, 05:09 AM
"will be gracious to whom I will be gracious,"

Where in those words that God spoke does any one else's will but God's enter in to His choice to be gracious?

We cannot earn grace, it is therefore unmerited, if grace were by works then grace is no more grace but debt.

God does not owe it to anyone to give grace, yet God is most definitely gracious".

Grace is by the favor of God. Don't confuse it with His mercy. Grace is not unmerited. Nor is this on topic and not about salvation from Hell.

Lets move on.

Cross Reference
July 6th, 2017, 05:13 AM
I think a quote from a passage you have put up makes it pretty clear that He had to be:


Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Philippians 2:5-7


He[Jesus]
took on the form of a servant even though He [The "Word"]
was in the form of God. He actually became a..........[man],
then I can't see how He wasn't already actually God.

Jesus, the man didn't know all that the Word knew. Having said that, Jesus was entrusted with handling the Glory of God in whatever circumstance He found Himself in..having complete confidence in the Godhead He represented.

nikolai_42
July 6th, 2017, 06:54 AM
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Philippians 2:5-7

[Jesus] [The "Word"] [man],

Jesus, the man didn't know all that the Word knew. Having said that, Jesus was entrusted with handling the Glory of God in whatever circumstance He found Himself in..having complete confidence in the Godhead He represented.

{emphasis added to quote}

Unless you have two separate identities here, I can't see isolating "Jesus" from "The Word". Otherwise, which one was the writer of Hebrews talking about :

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Hebrews 2:14-18

"The Word" didn't take on Jesus - the Word became flesh. He bore the weakness of sinful flesh yet was without sin. He endured not only the cross but the weakness that goes with that sinful flesh so that He could have firsthand knowledge of temptation. That same person was God manifested in the flesh and that same person ascended to the Father's right hand. It wasn't one person descending into two identities and resurrecting and being ascended back to the Father as one identity again. That's what it appears you require in your understanding.

jsanford108
July 6th, 2017, 08:52 AM
If I may address these two points, then I will progress with your charges for me.


Given Jesus' submission to the Father, why would you believe otherwise? He was made a little lower than the angels.

"Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things." John 8:28 (KJV)

Christ did submit to the Father's Will, but that does not make Him "lower" than the Father. Granted, this is a good inference utilizing our realities, however, that is placing human limits onto God. Would you say that the Holy Spirit is lower than God? Especially when considering that it is explicitly mentioned as "moving upon the face of the deep" in Genesis? If you contend that the Spirit is a "part of God," then Christ can likewise be a "part." Yet you would not claim that God is not whole. Therefore, all "parts" must be equal. Does that make sense?


Jsands, We have to remember when John understood these things about Jesus that he write about them as he did. Certainly John did not understand before the cross leading up to the ascension and then to wait for the Promise of the Father [Pentecost].



Try thinking of the "Word of God" as being us using our "lips" to speak/express our hearts desire[s], et al. cf Exo.33:20-23 KJV. cf with Paul's conversion experience on the road.



I believe you mean to say that the "Word of God" was with God from the beginning. Christ being a title given Jesus, the son, the man who needed to be proven that by it [process] would "win" the victory for both God and mankind. . . :) Sound reasonable?

There is a small error present here. When you say, "We have to remember when John understood these things about Jesus that he write about them as he did. Certainly John did not understand before the cross leading up to the ascension and then to wait for the Promise of the Father," you imply that John did not know these while writing his Gospel account. However, this is false, as his writing of the Gospel occurred decades after the Ascension. Common historical agreement is that the other Apostles wanted John to bear an account of the Gospel, as he was present throughout each event detailed, including the Crucifixion. So to imply that perhaps John's understanding was limited the strict timeline of his record, is false.

Furthermore, the idea of "Word of God" being a label or simple speech is false. The capacity of God's Word is beyond human comprehension. Jews actually have a slightly better idea of the depth of such a label, than most Christians. God's Word is more real than we are. Which makes sense, when you consider that God's very speech created reality, created the cosmos. He only had to speak and it was so. To reduce such a phrase as "Word of God" to a label or simple expression of desire is borderline sacrilegious. Simply because it is so much more than that.

Ask Mr. Religion
July 6th, 2017, 08:54 AM
Thank you Dr Sproul.
Explain. :idunno:

AMR

jsanford108
July 6th, 2017, 08:58 AM
Jsands, please exegete this passage:

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:5-11 (KJV)

In my opinion, this passage just goes to point to Christ being One with/in God. (the Trinity)

Demonstrated with the phrasing "Jesus Christ is Lord." If Christ was merely man, not God Incarnate, then this is in violation of the commandments. God cannot contradict Himself. By elevating Christ to equal status with Himself, He would be violating His own Commands to Moses, which extended to all people. Therefore, this passage would actually substantiate a claim that Christ is God.

jsanford108
July 6th, 2017, 09:05 AM
Paul said, "Prove all things, hold fast that which is good."

It's your responsibility to prove whatever it is you believe, not mine.

This is a shifting away from responsibility. Similar to atheists claiming "burden of proof lies with theists." It is actually false. If anyone makes a claim, as you did earlier, then the burden of proof lies with you, by your act of initiation. Claims of negative, such as "Christ is not God," by definition of "Burden of Proof," (as does "God does not exist") lies with the negative. "Christ is God" is the positive.

Don't worry, I will be providing evidence for my claim, due to not avoiding responsibility.


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jsanford108
July 6th, 2017, 09:11 AM
"Jesus answered and said to him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.'" (Matthew 16:17)

In what way was the Father's message revealed?

Hint: It was not by smartphone. The internet was not yet invented.

Some people can hear with more than their ears.

"But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you." (Matthew 10:19-20)

The Spirit of the Father is holy and is sometimes referred to as the holy Spirit.

This does not support either your claim, not mine.

However, the verse right before does support the doctrine of Christ being God. Simon says "You are the Son of the Living God." This is not a light phrase to throw around. A sonship, especially in Hebrew culture was an inheritance. IE: a taking over. A prince takes over the kingdom, gaining the power that the king had. Likewise, a son inherits his father's estate, and actually (hopefully) enhances it. Making it superior to its former status. To call Christ "the Son of God," is saying He is equal to God. If Christ is not God, this is blasphemy and against God's Commandments passed to Moses. God cannot contradict Himself. Therefore, Christ being elevated in such a way would violate God's Law, unless Christ was God Incarnate.

Thus, logically, we can conclude that Christ, in order to possess the title "Son of God," must be God Incarnate.


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jsanford108
July 6th, 2017, 09:23 AM
The son of God, Jesus Christ is the son of God, not God the son.

All sons have a beginning and an origination. Jesus Christ though planned by and foreknown by God His Father did not exist until he was conceived and born

If you see my responses to Cross Reference and Jaime, I have covered the realities associated with the title "Son of God."

To place human realities and limits on God is where error is entering your claim.

If God had a son, why would human limits of beginning and origin have any effect? God is without limit, no? Also, all things that have a beginning, must end.

Let us also examine the title, "Son of God." Sonship implies, in Hebrew Culture, equality with upon inheritance. If God elevates a man to equality with Himself, God has violated His own commandment to Moses. God cannot contradict Himself. Doing so negates His perfection. Therefore, Christ cannot be mere man, in any capacity. Even worship of Christ would be sinful if He was a man endowed with the Holy Spirit. We wouldn't worship the Apostles. We know they received the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. Therefore, Christ must be more than man. He must be God Incarnate for the title "Son of God" not to be blasphemous, for worship of Him to be anything other than sin, and to be equal to God.

The logical conclusion must be that Christ is God.


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Cross Reference
July 6th, 2017, 11:04 AM
{emphasis added to quote}

Unless you have two separate identities here, I can't see isolating "Jesus" from "The Word". Otherwise, which one was the writer of Hebrews talking about :

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Hebrews 2:14-18

"The Word" didn't take on Jesus - the Word became flesh. He bore the weakness of sinful flesh yet was without sin. He endured not only the cross but the weakness that goes with that sinful flesh so that He could have firsthand knowledge of temptation. That same person was God manifested in the flesh and that same person ascended to the Father's right hand. It wasn't one person descending into two identities and resurrecting and being ascended back to the Father as one identity again. That's what it appears you require in your understanding.


Interesting that God had to do all of that and not sin. . . . :nono:

nikolai_42
July 6th, 2017, 11:19 AM
Interesting that God had to do all of that and not sin. . . . :nono:

Why is it "interesting"? I get the feeling this is begging the question somehow....

jsanford108
July 6th, 2017, 11:52 AM
Jsands, please exegete this passage:

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:5-11 (KJV)

For the record, I love your utilization of "exegete." I find that very few use such accurate terminology when discussing deeper topics, that benefit from such words.


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Cross Reference
July 6th, 2017, 02:31 PM
Why is it "interesting"? I get the feeling this is begging the question somehow....

Why?? Because God CAN"T sin?

jamie
July 6th, 2017, 02:45 PM
This is a shifting away from responsibility.


It is Paul's teaching. It simply means each of us must do our homework.

nikolai_42
July 6th, 2017, 03:25 PM
Why?? Because God CAN"T sin?

Which is partly why I think this is (may be?) begging the question...

EDIT : If it were incumbent upon us to be like Jesus, then I could agree with your hangup. But because that isn't a requirement (nor is it possible, left to us) the judgment against sin is no less damning because the sinless One took on sinful flesh and overcame it perfectly.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:1-4

Which is in direct response to Paul's own question of who will deliver him from the body of (this) death?

If you have a lifeguard who could swim all his life and had never had an incident - and one that learned to swim and failed in the process (but was still a decent lifeguard), would the perfect lifeguard be any less of a lifeguard because he had never failed?

Cross Reference
July 6th, 2017, 04:19 PM
Which is partly why I think this is (may be?) begging the question...

EDIT : If it were incumbent upon us to be like Jesus, then I could agree with your hangup. But because that isn't a requirement (nor is it possible, left to us) the judgment against sin is no less damning because the sinless One took on sinful flesh and overcame it perfectly.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:1-4

Which is in direct response to Paul's own question of who will deliver him from the body of (this) death?

If you have a lifeguard who could swim all his life and had never had an incident - and one that learned to swim and failed in the process (but was still a decent lifeguard), would the perfect lifeguard be any less of a lifeguard because he had never failed?

Jesus NEVER took on "sinful flesh". Had it been sinful He could not ever have redeemed man.

Had He sinned, what sinless man could have redeemed Him?

jsanford108
July 6th, 2017, 08:16 PM
It is Paul's teaching. It simply means each of us must do our homework.

I agree. Which is why we should never shy away from defending what we believe.


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jamie
July 6th, 2017, 09:33 PM
I agree. Which is why we should never shy away from defending what we believe.


If a person's mind is closed they can't learn.

nikolai_42
July 7th, 2017, 09:46 AM
Jesus NEVER took on "sinful flesh". Had it been sinful He could not ever have redeemed man.

Had He sinned, what sinless man could have redeemed Him?

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:3-4

...which is a fairly direct contradiction of what you responded - being clarified (the understanding of "likeness", that is) here :

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Philippians 2:6-7

So while He was without sin, that doesn't negate the fact that He came in that sinful flesh. He did not submit to it.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2 Cor 5:21

He was made sin for us - He bore our sins and came in the likeness of sinful flesh but did not sin. The two ideas are not mutually exclusive.

Cross Reference
July 7th, 2017, 10:26 AM
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the *LIKENESS of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8:3-4

"LIKENESS" being the operative word. Jesus was NOT of sinful flesh. Can you hear me?

We were formed in the LIKENESS of God. Are you God?

nikolai_42
July 7th, 2017, 10:42 AM
"LIKENESS" being the operative word. Jesus was NOT of sinful flesh. Can you hear me?

We were formed in the LIKENESS of God. Are you God?

The comparison is not apt. Jesus coming in the likeness of sinful flesh doesn't make Him a sinner just like us being formed in the image of God doesn't make us God as you point out. Paul tells the Philippians he came in the likeness of men. By your reasoning, that means He was never a man - He just looked like it. Is that what you are saying?

Cross Reference
July 7th, 2017, 11:23 AM
For the record, I love your utilization of "exegete." I find that very few use such accurate terminology when discussing deeper topics, that benefit from such words.

Thank you, Jsanford.

Would you consider "exegeting" this passage? I think I am on to something and wish to see if anyone else might see it.i.e., two ways it could go but both being of Jesus Christ, the man, as the "first of first fruits":

Ephesians 2:1-22 (KJV)

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

jsanford108
July 8th, 2017, 09:35 PM
Thank you, Jsanford.

Would you consider "exegeting" this passage? I think I am on to something and wish to see if anyone else might see it.i.e., two ways it could go but both being of Jesus Christ, the man, as the "first of first fruits":

Ephesians 2:1-22 (KJV)

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

I would say that this passage states that Christ is our only hope of heaven. Ordained by God, since the dawn of creation.

It even seems to establish a physical church. Note verses 20-22. It appears to suggest a physical organization, founded upon the Apostles, with Christ as cornerstone (the source of Truth, and that which holds it fast). A place to grow in spirit and in the knowledge of God.

Granted, this is simply my initial interpretation.

I apologize for the delay, as I have been quite busy.

keypurr
July 10th, 2017, 05:15 PM
This does not support either your claim, not mine.

However, the verse right before does support the doctrine of Christ being God. Simon says "You are the Son of the Living God." This is not a light phrase to throw around. A sonship, especially in Hebrew culture was an inheritance. IE: a taking over. A prince takes over the kingdom, gaining the power that the king had. Likewise, a son inherits his father's estate, and actually (hopefully) enhances it. Making it superior to its former status. To call Christ "the Son of God," is saying He is equal to God. If Christ is not God, this is blasphemy and against God's Commandments passed to Moses. God cannot contradict Himself. Therefore, Christ being elevated in such a way would violate God's Law, unless Christ was God Incarnate.

Thus, logically, we can conclude that Christ, in order to possess the title "Son of God," must be God Incarnate.


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You assume way to much, the Son of God is not God, he is the Son of.

The Son of a King is not the King, he is a Prince.

God is a position, the one who holds that position is YHWH.

The Universe was not created by a man called Jesus. Man did not exist at that time.


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jsanford108
July 10th, 2017, 09:14 PM
You assume way to much, the Son of God is not God, he is the Son of.

The Son of a King is not the King, he is a Prince.

God is a position, the one who holds that position is YHWH.

The Universe was not created by a man called Jesus. Man did not exist at that time.


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You are placing human limits and constrictions onto Christ/God.

If Christ is elevated to a position of worship, then the first commandment is being broken. Saying Christ rules with God is blasphemous if Christ is a man.

If God raised your "Man Christ" to this position, then God has broken his own commandment. Now, we know that God cannot/will not break a commandment. So either Christ is God Incarnate, or God has contradicted himself and broken his own commandment, by elevating a man to a position of worship and rule in heaven.


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Cross Reference
July 11th, 2017, 05:09 AM
You are placing human limits and constrictions onto Christ/God.

If Christ is elevated to a position of worship, then the first commandment is being broken. Saying Christ rules with God is blasphemous if Christ is a man.

If God raised your "Man Christ" to this position, then God has broken his own commandment. Now, we know that God cannot/will not break a commandment. So either Christ is God Incarnate, or God has contradicted himself and broken his own commandment, by elevating a man to a position of worship and rule in heaven.


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"For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."
Isaiah 48:11-12 (KJV)

Please reconcile this with the above verse:

".. . . . the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one"
John 17:22(KJV)

Was Jesus merely being presumptuous? He knew the OT and lived by it.

jamie
July 11th, 2017, 07:57 AM
You assume way to much, the Son of God is not God, he is the Son of.


And we know a son can never inherit his father's business, right?

jamie
July 11th, 2017, 08:02 AM
"For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."
Isaiah 48:11-12 (KJV)


He will not give his glory to another other than those described in the preceding verse.

After all, he is the first and also he is the last.

WonderfulLordJesus
July 11th, 2017, 08:25 AM
John 1

The Eternal Word - Note: Jesus Christ very Creator and God

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

John's Witness: The True Light

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The Word Becomes Flesh - Note: the eternal, pre-existent Word, very God, aforementioned

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.' "

Cross Reference
July 11th, 2017, 08:30 AM
He will not give his glory to another other than those described in the preceding verse.

After all, he is the first and also he is the last.

Isa.48:11 was God speaking. John 17:22 was the man Jesus speaking of How God gave it to him. God gave His Glory to a man. How could God do that because it shows the Man Jesus being equal with God. . . which Jesus knew people would not understand. He said that too. Jesus became the one new man Eph 2 speaks of. Read it.

Cross Reference
July 11th, 2017, 08:41 AM
John 1

The Eternal Word - Note: Jesus Christ very Creator and God

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

John's Witness: The True Light

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

The Word Becomes Flesh - Note: the eternal, pre-existent Word, very God, aforementioned

14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, 'He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.' "

And then subordinated His Glory to the flesh and blood of Jesus. . . the man.

jamie
July 11th, 2017, 09:16 AM
Isa.48:11 was God speaking. John 17:22 was the man Jesus speaking of How God gave it to him. God gave His Glory to a man. How could God do that because it shows the Man Jesus being equal with God. . . which Jesus knew people would not understand. He said that too. Jesus became the one new man Eph 2 speaks of. Read it.


We are the begotten children of the Most High created in his image and likeness. As his family we will carry on his creation.

We have the same spiritual parents as Jesus, out brother.

Only God has eternal life.

jamie
July 11th, 2017, 09:20 AM
Jesus knew people would not understand.


And this is why he spoke to the people in parables lest they understand.

Cross Reference
July 11th, 2017, 09:28 AM
And this is why he spoke to the people in parables lest they understand.

Keep your rabbits in your cage, will ya. <good grief>

jsanford108
July 11th, 2017, 09:30 AM
"For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."
Isaiah 48:11-12 (KJV)

Please reconcile this with the above verse:

".. . . . the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one"
John 17:22(KJV)

Was Jesus merely being presumptuous? He knew the OT and lived by it.

I would say that the verse you provide from John's Gospel further confirms that Christ is God. Saying "even as we are one" is easily understood as "oneness," aka: the hypostatic nature of Christ.


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Cross Reference
July 12th, 2017, 11:59 AM
I would say that the verse you provide from John's Gospel further confirms that Christ is God. Saying "even as we are one" is easily understood as "oneness," aka: the hypostatic nature of Christ.

It speaks of intimacy not biology. Have you ever read John 17 in its entirety?

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. Acts 2:22-24 (KJV)

jamie
July 12th, 2017, 12:04 PM
Keep your rabbits in your cage, will ya. <good grief>


Are you saying Jesus did not speak in parables?

jsanford108
July 12th, 2017, 12:11 PM
It speaks of intimacy not biology. Have you ever read John 17 in its entirety?



Yes, I have read the entirety of the Gospels several times. And time and again, the only logical conclusion that is reachable is Christ being God Incarnate.

Hypostatic nature is not a biological term, more of a theological term. It is utilized to describe the reality of Christ being 100% man, and 100% God.

jsanford108
July 12th, 2017, 12:32 PM
It speaks of intimacy not biology. Have you ever read John 17 in its entirety?


If you don't mind, I will attempt to demonstrate Christ being God Incarnate (Aka: a Trinity)

All we need to really demonstrate this is the Baptism. (Matthew 3:13-17)

After Christ is baptized, the Holy Spirit descends as a dove, and God speaks, saying "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (KJV) At this moment, three very distinct, clear, and tremendous events have occurred. If one accepts the Trinity, then all three beings are present, in three distinctly different forms, all at once. But, as denying Christ being Incarnate, one must reject the Trinity. So let us progress.

God says "This is my beloved Son." If, as I believe I quoted earlier, we apply Hebrew understanding of Sonship, this is very significant. Sonship is a very high position. The son inherits all that is the father's, including the father's authority. With the hopes, even, of increasing the wealth. When God says "This is my Son," God is saying that Christ is inheriting all that is God's. God is declaring Christ has equal authority to himself. Christ affirms this in the Gospels (even going so far, proving the hypostatic nature further, by declaring "I and the Father are one."). If Christ is God Incarnate, then this passage makes perfect sense, and is not contradictory to any Scripture. If Christ is solely man, imputed with the Holy Spirit, God is breaking his own commandment, by making Christ his equal. This would be contradictory to God's Word, therefore, rendering God not the fullness of Truth.

But we can even trace this reality of Christ always being with God, as well as the Trinity, back to Genesis. When we read the Creation, "the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the deep." And God said, "Let us make man in our image." Once again, all three members of the Trinity are present. If it was solely God moving upon the face of the deep, why does it say, "Spirit of God." If God was talking to the angels, why did he say "Our Image." The angels do not have a static image. They constantly change. Also, angels are not created in the image of God, as far as we have evidence of. Therefore, with the reality that Christ would become man, this phrase reveals even deeper truths, further pointing to Christ being One with God. Especially with the knowledge that Christ was human, this phrase bears great weight, and proves that God and Christ are One.

Other things to consider: If Christ were mere man, then He could not utter the phrase, "I and the Father are One," without being blasphemous.

If Christ were mere man, the Holy Spirit could not be His paternal source. Mary was a Virgin, no? Mere men must have physical paternal sources.

By Christ having an Immaculate Conception, and a Virgin Birth, it necessitates that He be more than mere mortal man, IE: God Incarnate. It would also point to God being eternal, since the conception by the Holy Spirit (being God) enabling Christ to be born (as God), God would be eternal, having no beginning, but simply always being. (I know this is deep and gets heavy very quickly)

jamie
July 12th, 2017, 01:56 PM
God says "This is my beloved Son."


Which means the Father is the holy Spirit. Simple.

At this time Jesus, being one with the Father, is also the holy Spirit.

Paul explained there is only one body and one Spirit.

The one body is the temple for the one Spirit comprised of Father and Son.

Those who do not have the Spirit of Christ are not his.

Those who have the Spirit of Christ are his bride.

That makes the trinity Father, Son, Bride.

"And the Spirit and the bride say, 'Come!' And let him who hears say, 'Come!' And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely." (Revelation 22:17)

keypurr
July 12th, 2017, 09:43 PM
You are placing human limits and constrictions onto Christ/God.

Your making him God


If Christ is elevated to a position of worship, then the first commandment is being broken. Saying Christ rules with God is blasphemous if Christ is a man.

Christ is the servant Son of his Father, not his equal. Christ is the first of all creation, a creature enpowerd by his creator.
He was given the fullness of his Father.



If God raised your "Man Christ" to this position, then God has broken his own commandment. Now, we know that God cannot/will not break a commandment. So either Christ is God Incarnate, or God has contradicted himself and broken his own commandment, by elevating a man to a position of worship and rule in heaven.

God raised Jesus who is the human body that held the Christ (logos)You break the commandment when you acceot the Son as YHWH.




Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)[/QUOTE]

keypurr
July 12th, 2017, 09:50 PM
If you don't mind, I will attempt to demonstrate Christ being God Incarnate (Aka: a Trinity)

All we need to really demonstrate this is the Baptism. (Matthew 3:13-17)

After Christ is baptized, the Holy Spirit descends as a dove, and God speaks, saying "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (KJV) At this moment, three very distinct, clear, and tremendous events have occurred. If one accepts the Trinity, then all three beings are present, in three distinctly different forms, all at once. But, as denying Christ being Incarnate, one must reject the Trinity. So let us progress.

God says "This is my beloved Son." If, as I believe I quoted earlier, we apply Hebrew understanding of Sonship, this is very significant. Sonship is a very high position. The son inherits all that is the father's, including the father's authority. With the hopes, even, of increasing the wealth. When God says "This is my Son," God is saying that Christ is inheriting all that is God's. God is declaring Christ has equal authority to himself. Christ affirms this in the Gospels (even going so far, proving the hypostatic nature further, by declaring "I and the Father are one."). If Christ is God Incarnate, then this passage makes perfect sense, and is not contradictory to any Scripture. If Christ is solely man, imputed with the Holy Spirit, God is breaking his own commandment, by making Christ his equal. This would be contradictory to God's Word, therefore, rendering God not the fullness of Truth.

But we can even trace this reality of Christ always being with God, as well as the Trinity, back to Genesis. When we read the Creation, "the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the deep." And God said, "Let us make man in our image." Once again, all three members of the Trinity are present. If it was solely God moving upon the face of the deep, why does it say, "Spirit of God." If God was talking to the angels, why did he say "Our Image." The angels do not have a static image. They constantly change. Also, angels are not created in the image of God, as far as we have evidence of. Therefore, with the reality that Christ would become man, this phrase reveals even deeper truths, further pointing to Christ being One with God. Especially with the knowledge that Christ was human, this phrase bears great weight, and proves that God and Christ are One.

Other things to consider: If Christ were mere man, then He could not utter the phrase, "I and the Father are One," without being blasphemous.

If Christ were mere man, the Holy Spirit could not be His paternal source. Mary was a Virgin, no? Mere men must have physical paternal sources.

By Christ having an Immaculate Conception, and a Virgin Birth, it necessitates that He be more than mere mortal man, IE: God Incarnate. It would also point to God being eternal, since the conception by the Holy Spirit (being God) enabling Christ to be born (as God), God would be eternal, having no beginning, but simply always being. (I know this is deep and gets heavy very quickly)

If Jesus was born as God why did he need to grow in wisdom?

Potter's Clay
July 12th, 2017, 10:03 PM
If Jesus was born as God why did he need to grow in wisdom?

Luke 2:52 speaks of Jesus's flesh. This does not mean that Jesus lacked spiritual knowledge and sinned. Instead, we should interpret this verse to speak of Jesus in the human form.


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keypurr
July 12th, 2017, 10:18 PM
Luke 2:52 speaks of Jesus's flesh. This does not mean that Jesus lacked spiritual knowledge and sinned. Instead, we should interpret this verse to speak of Jesus in the human form.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

If Jesus was God he would not lack anything.

Jesus was not born as God. He was the body God prepared for his real son, the logos, the spirit son mentioned in Heb 1:3. Jesus received this power at his anointing. Acts 10:38.

Christ, the logos, is a form of God, not God.
He/it is the first creation for God created all through it/him.
He became flesh in the body of Jesus and spoke through him.

God was alone until he created his Son and gave him his fullness. That son was not Jesus.

Cross Reference
July 13th, 2017, 05:12 AM
Yes, I have read the entirety of the Gospels several times. And time and again, the only logical conclusion that is reachable is Christ being God Incarnate.

Hypostatic nature is not a biological term, more of a theological term. It is utilized to describe the reality of Christ being 100% man, and 100% God.

Hypostatic = [2] natures in one body. Both vying for suspremancy over the other.

Cross Reference
July 13th, 2017, 06:11 AM
[QUOTE]If you don't mind, I will attempt to demonstrate Christ being God Incarnate (Aka: a Trinity)

All we need to really demonstrate this is the Baptism. (Matthew 3:13-17)


After Christ is baptized, the Holy Spirit descends as a dove, and God speaks, saying "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (KJV)

Note: [2} manifestaions of the Holy Spirit ["with" and "indwelling"] had been part of Jesus, the man, for 30 yrs prior to His Baptism with the Holy Spirit which came "upon" Him. The man was now equipped for ministry. His first mission was a test of His allegiance. cf Luke4:1-14 and Matheww 4:1-11 KJV.


At this moment, three very distinct, clear, and tremendous events have occurred. If one accepts the Trinity, then all three beings are present, in three distinctly different forms, all at once. But, as denying Christ being Incarnate, one must reject the Trinity. So let us progress.

Jesus, the man "approved of God", was the recipient of all [3] manifestations. By being such in His sinless state was He able to be "full of Grace and Truth" the which would sustain Him as He was entrusted with "Handling" God's glory. The whole Godhead He held in His Hands. . . . as a man!


God says "This is my beloved Son." If, as I believe I quoted earlier, we apply Hebrew understanding of Sonship, this is very significant. Sonship is a very high position. The son inherits all that is the father's, including the father's authority.

The operative words in your quote are "The son inherits all that is the Fathers". That hasn't happened yet, has it? cf Luke 22:69; with:

"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ." Acts 2:33-36 (KJV) [READ ACTS 2: FROM VS 27 KJV.]


When God says: "This is my Son," God is saying that Christ is inheriting all that is God's. God is declaring Christ has equal authority to himself. Christ affirms this in the Gospels (even going so far, proving the hypostatic nature further, by declaring "I and the Father are one.").

Up to now is Jesus THE Ambassador of God. He is God's representation of a "Normal man" being demonstrated to a fallen race; the "Normal" life purposed for His creation from the beginning. The "second Adam" won lifes 'battle[s]' to make it possible for you and I to follow suit by the new birth from above, able to equip unto son-ship in the Father as Jesus was. Their relationship would merely be a normal one.



If Christ is God Incarnate, then this passage makes perfect sense, and is not contradictory to any Scripture. If Christ is solely man, imputed with the Holy Spirit, God is breaking his own commandment, by making Christ his equal. This would be contradictory to God's Word, therefore, rendering God not the fullness of Truth.

Christ is a title given Jesus, the man, which violates nothing if you can accept Jesus being God's normal man, 'enabled' by it to receive ALL from His Father as His Father wills it.


But we can even trace this reality of Christ always being with God, as well as the Trinity, back to Genesis.

You mean the "Word of God"; the Expression of His Heart; the "voice" of God Who spoke the creation into existence? If you agree with that then the rest of your statement below is more clear especially if it might be that the NAME given the "Word of God" was "Jesus" from eternity past; the form Moses saw in Exo.33:17-23 KJV.


When we read the Creation, "the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the deep." And God said, "Let us make man in our image." Once again, all three members of the Trinity are present. If it was solely God moving upon the face of the deep, why does it say, "Spirit of God." If God was talking to the angels, why did he say "Our Image." The angels do not have a static image. They constantly change. Also, angels are not created in the image of God, as far as we have evidence of. Therefore, with the reality that Christ would become man, this phrase reveals even deeper truths, further pointing to Christ being One with God. Especially with the knowledge that Christ was human, this phrase bears great weight, and proves that God and Christ are One.

Remember, "Christ" is a title given Jesus, the son of man . . "the "anointed One".


Other things to consider: If Christ were mere man, then He could not utter the phrase, "I and the Father are One," without being blasphemous.

Jesus was NOT mere man. He a sinless man, able to stand in the Presence of God without being slain by the GLORY.. BIG difference. He demonsrtared that on the Mount speaking with Moses and Elijah.


If Christ were mere man, the Holy Spirit could not be His paternal source. Mary was a Virgin, no? Mere men must have physical paternal sources.

Jesus was sinless BECAUSE of His Paternal source. That was the only way God could introduce a sinless being into Adam's race. As God was the Author of creation, Jesus, by His obedience, BECAME the Author of our salvation. See Heb 2:10 KJV.


By Christ having an Immaculate Conception, and a Virgin Birth, it necessitates that He be more than mere mortal man, IE: God Incarnate.

Only in the afterwards of redemption does that need to be so.[I think] Redemption necessitated "mere" sinless blood for it to happen. That is the part [redemption] man could have had nothing to do with. God performed it universally. Salvation, however, is not universal. It requires believing for it. cf Paul's reply to the Jailer in Acts.


It would also point to God being eternal, since the conception by the Holy Spirit (being God) enabling Christ to be born (as God), God would be eternal, having no beginning, but simply always being. (I know this is deep and gets heavy very quickly)

Why do you suppose Jesus speaks of the unforgivable sin as being speaking against the Holy Spirit and not God or Himself?

jamie
July 13th, 2017, 08:55 AM
God was alone until he created his Son and gave him his fullness. That son was not Jesus.


Is Christ the King of Righteousness?

jamie
July 13th, 2017, 09:05 AM
Christ is the servant Son of his Father, not his equal.


Equality does not negate authority.

In this country we promote the premise that all men are created equal, but some have authority.

The term most high requires there are those who are less high.

jsanford108
July 13th, 2017, 10:03 AM
Your making him God



Christ is the servant Son of his Father, not his equal. Christ is the first of all creation, a creature enpowerd by his creator.
He was given the fullness of his Father.




God raised Jesus who is the human body that held the Christ (logos)You break the commandment when you acceot the Son as YHWH.




Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)[/QUOTE]

What does it mean to be given the "fullness of the father?" That means "fullness," no? Hence, God made Christ equal. My point stands firm.


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jsanford108
July 13th, 2017, 10:04 AM
If Jesus was born as God why did he need to grow in wisdom?

Where do you find Christ "growing in wisdom?"


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jsanford108
July 13th, 2017, 10:06 AM
Hypostatic = [2] natures in one body. Both vying for suspremancy over the other.

They are not vying for supremacy. They are both whole. Vying would be a symptom of unequal parts. Christ is 100% each. Christ being supernatural is beyond natural limits.

jsanford108
July 13th, 2017, 10:15 AM
[QUOTE=jsanford108;5061841]



Note: [2} manifestaions of the Holy Spirit ["with" and "indwelling"] had been part of Jesus, the man, for 30 yrs prior to His Baptism with the Holy Spirit which came "upon" Him. The man was now equipped for ministry. His first mission was a test of His allegiance. cf Luke4:1-14 and Matheww 4:1-11 KJV.



Jesus, the man "approved of God", was the recipient of all [3] manifestations. By being such in His sinless state was He able to be "full of Grace and Truth" the which would sustain Him as He was entrusted with "Handling" God's glory. The whole Godhead He held in His Hands. . . . as a man!



The operative words in your quote are "The son inherits all that is the Fathers". That hasn't happened yet, has it? cf Luke 22:69; with:

"Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ." Acts 2:33-36 (KJV) [READ ACTS 2: FROM VS 27 KJV.]



Up to now is Jesus THE Ambassador of God. He is God's representation of a "Normal man" being demonstrated to a fallen race; the "Normal" life purposed for His creation from the beginning. The "second Adam" won lifes 'battle[s]' to make it possible for you and I to follow suit by the new birth from above, able to equip unto son-ship in the Father as Jesus was. Their relationship would merely be a normal one.




Christ is a title given Jesus, the man, which violates nothing if you can accept Jesus being God's normal man, 'enabled' by it to receive ALL from His Father as His Father wills it.



You mean the "Word of God"; the Expression of His Heart; the "voice" of God Who spoke the creation into existence? If you agree with that then the rest of your statement below is more clear especially if it might be that the NAME given the "Word of God" was "Jesus" from eternity past; the form Moses saw in Exo.33:17-23 KJV.



Remember, "Christ" is a title given Jesus, the son of man . . "the "anointed One".



Jesus was NOT mere man. He a sinless man, able to stand in the Presence of God without being slain by the GLORY.. BIG difference. He demonsrtared that on the Mount speaking with Moses and Elijah.



Jesus was sinless BECAUSE of His Paternal source. That was the only way God could introduce a sinless being into Adam's race. As God was the Author of creation, Jesus, by His obedience, BECAME the Author of our salvation. See Heb 2:10 KJV.



Only in the afterwards of redemption does that need to be so.[I think] Redemption necessitated "mere" sinless blood for it to happen. That is the part [redemption] man could have had nothing to do with. God performed it universally. Salvation, however, is not universal. It requires believing for it. cf Paul's reply to the Jailer in Acts.



Why do you suppose Jesus speaks of the unforgivable sin as being speaking against the Holy Spirit and not God or Himself?

If I may, I will respond to this post later on, when I can accurately break down my response at a computer. I assure you I will respond. Your reply is quite lengthy, and I would like to really dive into it. I apologize for the delay.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

beloved57
July 13th, 2017, 10:56 AM
oatmeal


Jesus Christ did not exist before his conception and birth. Matthew 1:18 (https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Matt%201.18)

Thats a invalid statement not found in scripture.

In fact Paul says specifically that God created all things by Jesus Christ Eph 3:9

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

This speaks to His existense before creation, so certainly before His virgin birth !

Cross Reference
July 13th, 2017, 11:46 AM
[QUOTE=Cross Reference;5062488]

If I may, I will respond to this post later on, when I can accurately break down my response at a computer. I assure you I will respond. Your reply is quite lengthy, and I would like to really dive into it. I apologize for the delay.

I appreciate that. Thank you.

jamie
July 13th, 2017, 12:13 PM
Where do you find Christ "growing in wisdom?"


"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." (Luke 2:52)

jsanford108
July 13th, 2017, 02:26 PM
"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." (Luke 2:52)

Thanks. My quick recall was failing me. I appreciate you providing the verse.


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keypurr
July 13th, 2017, 10:05 PM
oatmeal



Thats a invalid statement not found in scripture.

In fact Paul says specifically that God created all things by Jesus Christ Eph 3:9

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

This speaks to His existense before creation, so certainly before His virgin birth !

The Greek to English show a lot of distortions in the KJV and the NKJV to lead people away from the truth. There is only one God, the God which Jesus Christ has. You fall for the fables of the early fathers who gave in to the pagans.

beloved57
July 13th, 2017, 10:07 PM
The Greek to English show a lot of distortions in the KJV and the NKJV to lead people away from the truth. There is only one God, the God which Jesus Christ has. You fall for the fables of the early fathers who gave in to the pagans.
False statements not valid.

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patrick jane
July 13th, 2017, 10:09 PM
The Greek to English show a lot of distortions in the KJV and the NKJV to lead people away from the truth. There is only one God, the God which Jesus Christ has. You fall for the fables of the early fathers who gave in to the pagans.You were lead down the wrong path, away from the truth, some years ago. You know you are wrong, that's why you keep posting anti-trinity propaganda day after day. You are trying to convince yourself of your own false doctrine.

Cross Reference
July 14th, 2017, 04:44 AM
"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." (Luke 2:52)

Couple that with: ". . . . . . .Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God . . . . . . ": Acts 2:22 (KJV)

Zeke
July 14th, 2017, 11:09 AM
Was the man Jesus God before He was Glorified or was His humanity simply speaking from a divine disposition?

I sincerely ask without a religious agenda.

Those who follow the observable history of Christ haven't discerned Luke 17:20-21, neither Christ nor his kingdom is observed by man except by revelation Galatians 1:12,4:1, the letter kills 2Cor 3:6 unless its spiritual intent is revealed by revelation, the student of history and future never will grasp their own inheritance/position as the eternal off spring of Spirit until they stop thinking like man with his limitations as a personality/sinner effected by duality of divisions time and seasons, the Seed of God sleeps in the illusion/field of mortal flesh and blood, you the eternal I! became the prodigal son that was sent to experience the sleep of separation from our true Self which is Spirit, as long as you agree that you are flesh and blood you will bow to that limitation.

Cross Reference
July 14th, 2017, 01:39 PM
This verse of scripture, as written, must be acknowledged as fact, not fiction:

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:" Acts 2:22 (KJV)

BDMX
July 18th, 2017, 09:11 AM
Jesus means Savior and Christ means King.

Jesus Christ was foreordained King and Savior before the first Adam.

Jesus Christ is the last Adam.

"And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man." (1 Corinthians 15:49)

Jesus is an Anglicized form of Iesous,which is a Hellenized form of Yeshua, which means "saved by God." Messiah is literal "anointed one," which could refer to a prophet, priest or king. Interestingly, Jesus fills all three of these roles.

jamie
July 18th, 2017, 11:49 AM
There is only one God, the God which Jesus Christ has.


Only God has eternal life. Humans don't and angels don't.

jamie
July 18th, 2017, 11:50 AM
???

keypurr
July 18th, 2017, 09:33 PM
Only God has eternal life. Humans don't and angels don't.

I think God can give eternal life as he wishes.

The "logos" is the most advanced creation for it/he was given the power of his creator. He is firstborn of all creatures. The "logos" took human form and brought us light. God was alone until he created his express image.

keypurr
July 18th, 2017, 09:38 PM
You were lead down the wrong path, away from the truth, some years ago. You know you are wrong, that's why you keep posting anti-trinity propaganda day after day. You are trying to convince yourself of your own false doctrine.

It is not me that is preaching propaganda Patrick, the church has done it for over 2000 years.

There is no Trinity recorded in scripture. That is purely a pagan custom.

patrick jane
July 18th, 2017, 09:39 PM
It is not me that is preaching propaganda Patrick, the church has done it for over 2000 years.

There is no Trinity recorded in scripture. That is purely a pagan custom.Do you deny there is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?

keypurr
July 18th, 2017, 09:58 PM
You were lead down the wrong path, away from the truth, some years ago. You know you are wrong, that's why you keep posting anti-trinity propaganda day after day. You are trying to convince yourself of your own false doctrine.

Do you really think Paul preached Jesus as God?

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—
Rom 1:2 the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures
Rom 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David,
Rom 1:4 and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 1:5 Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith.
Rom 1:6 And you also are among those who are called to belong to Jesus Christ.
Rom 1:7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world.
Rom 1:9 God, whom I serve with my whole heart in preaching the gospel of his Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you
Rom 1:10 in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last by God's will the way may be opened for me to come to you.


1Co 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,
1Co 1:2 To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:
1Co 1:3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2Co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, To the church of God in Corinth, together with all the saints throughout Achaia:
2Co 1:2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2Co 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—
Gal 1:2 and all the brothers with me, To the churches in Galatia:
Gal 1:3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal 1:4 who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father,
Gal 1:5 to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Eph 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints in Ephesus, the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Eph 1:2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.


Php 1:1 Paul and Timothy, servants of Christ Jesus, To all the saints in Christ Jesus at Philippi, together with the overseers and deacons:
Php 1:2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Php 1:3 I thank my God every time I remember you.

Col 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother,
Col 1:2 To the holy and faithful brothers in Christ at Colosse: Grace and peace to you from God our Father.
Col 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

I can give you more.....but if you fail to see the words God AND our Lord Jesus Christ it would be a waste of time. Did not Jesus Christ say "if you believe in God, believe ALSO in me" Does that tell you anything?

keypurr
July 18th, 2017, 10:04 PM
What does Peter say:

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
1Pe 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you,
1Pe 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:
2Pe 1:2 Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

How about James:

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes scattered among the nations: Greetings.
Jude:

Jud 1:1 Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James, To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by Jesus Christ:
Jud 1:2 Mercy, peace and love be yours in abundance.

keypurr
July 18th, 2017, 10:07 PM
Do you deny there is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit?

The Father is the only true God.
His Son is our Lord.
The Holy Spirit is the spirit power of the Father.

My thoughts.

Lazy afternoon
July 18th, 2017, 10:24 PM
The Father is the only true God.
His Son is our Lord.
The Holy Spirit is the spirit power of the Father.

My thoughts.

I agree except that the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father Himself.

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

LA

Lazy afternoon
July 18th, 2017, 10:26 PM
oatmeal



Thats a invalid statement not found in scripture.

In fact Paul says specifically that God created all things by Jesus Christ Eph 3:9

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

This speaks to His existense before creation, so certainly before His virgin birth !

No it does not.

Only in the intention and knowledge of what God would do.

LA

Lazy afternoon
July 18th, 2017, 10:32 PM
You were lead down the wrong path, away from the truth, some years ago. You know you are wrong, that's why you keep posting anti-trinity propaganda day after day. You are trying to convince yourself of your own false doctrine.

Patrick,

You have been programmed to believe something not stated in scripture.

You have to seek God in an unbiased manner for the truth from Christ Himself.

Many have.

1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1Jn 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

LA

beloved57
July 19th, 2017, 02:28 AM
No it does not.

Only in the intention and knowledge of what God would do.

LA
Yes it does!

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jamie
July 19th, 2017, 08:22 AM
I think God can give eternal life as he wishes.


Can Jesus Christ impart eternal life?

Who else besides God can impart eternal life?

Lazy afternoon
July 19th, 2017, 06:06 PM
Can Jesus Christ impart eternal life?

Who else besides God can impart eternal life?

Jesus Christ.

Joh 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
Joh 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

jamie
July 19th, 2017, 06:33 PM
I think God can give eternal life as he wishes.


Keypurr, can Jesus Christ impart eternal life?

oatmeal
July 19th, 2017, 07:30 PM
oatmeal



Thats a invalid statement not found in scripture.

In fact Paul says specifically that God created all things by Jesus Christ Eph 3:9

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

This speaks to His existense before creation, so certainly before His virgin birth !

Well, nice try.

the words "by Jesus Christ" is omitted in the Greek texts.

Thus Ephesians 3:9 says, ".... God created all things"

keypurr
July 19th, 2017, 07:53 PM
Can Jesus Christ impart eternal life?

Who else besides God can impart eternal life?

Has not all authority been given to Jesus Christ?

Has not judgement been put in his hands?

Do you believe that YHWH can give that power to whom he wishes?

I have no problem see the power given to the Son by the Father.


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keypurr
July 19th, 2017, 07:56 PM
Well, nice try.

the words "by Jesus Christ" is omitted in the Greek texts.

Thus Ephesians 3:9 says, ".... God created all things"

I think most do not realize that the logos is a spirit just as the Father is. This spirit took the form of man. The man was not at he creation but the logos was.


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beloved57
July 19th, 2017, 08:13 PM
Well, nice try.

the words "by Jesus Christ" is omitted in the Greek texts.

Thus Ephesians 3:9 says, ".... God created all things"
Its omitted in some greek text, not all. Also its taught in other scriptures like Col 1:16; Jn 1:3

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jamie
July 19th, 2017, 09:09 PM
Do you believe that YHWH can give that power to whom he wishes?


Nope, scripture says Jesus is the last Adam, the last person who can impart eternal life.

Only God has eternal life.

Jesus Christ will be a father.

keypurr
July 19th, 2017, 09:28 PM
Nope, scripture says Jesus is the last Adam, the last person who can impart eternal life.

Only God has eternal life.

Jesus Christ will be a father.

Its OK to disagree Jamie.

Define what you think "ETERNAL" life is.

jamie
July 19th, 2017, 10:09 PM
Define what you think "ETERNAL" life is.


Immortality.

Only God is immortal, not humans and not angels.

patrick jane
July 19th, 2017, 10:10 PM
Immortality.

Only God is immortal, not humans and not angels.You should write science fiction books

Lazy afternoon
July 19th, 2017, 11:20 PM
You should write science fiction books

Your comments reveal your complete ignorance of all things pure and right.

LA

patrick jane
July 20th, 2017, 07:04 AM
Your comments reveal your complete ignorance of all things pure and right.

LAYou foolish woman

jamie
July 20th, 2017, 07:33 AM
You should write science fiction books


Why? I don't care for science fiction - too phony.

patrick jane
July 20th, 2017, 07:41 AM
Why? I don't care for science fiction - too phony.No, you just create your own science fiction from the Bible

jamie
July 20th, 2017, 07:47 AM
No, you just create your own science fiction from the Bible


But you have not shown where I was wrong.

Prove all things scripturally.

keypurr
July 20th, 2017, 08:24 AM
Immortality.

Only God is immortal, not humans and not angels.

Are we not to inherit eternal life?

Your assuming that God will not save us from our sins then.


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jamie
July 20th, 2017, 09:07 AM
Are we not to inherit eternal life?


Yes, we are co-heirs with Christ of all there is.

"Thou hast put everything in subjection under his feet. For this subjecting of the universe to man implies the leaving nothing not subject to him. But we do not as yet see the universe subject to him." (Hebrews 2:8 Weymouth NT)

(http://biblehub.com/wey/hebrews/2.htm)

oatmeal
July 20th, 2017, 04:28 PM
Its omitted in some greek text, not all. Also its taught in other scriptures like Col 1:16; Jn 1:3

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It is omitted inthe Greek texts according to Dr Bullinger, a trinitarian.

beloved57
July 20th, 2017, 04:33 PM
It is omitted inthe Greek texts according to Dr Bullinger, a trinitarian.
Evasion. Your argument is dead. O have shown you two additional scriptures that justify the Eph 3:9 kjv. You just made a invalid comment with no biblical support.

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