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beameup
June 30th, 2017, 04:56 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TF0QQ1ptsI

daqq
June 30th, 2017, 06:21 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TF0QQ1ptsI

At about 1:47 he says that the image of a hand was/is the letter "Yad", (hand), but that really is not the case because it is most commonly known as Yod, (Yodh), or Yud, and moreover the pictograph-symbol is clearly not just a hand but an ARM, (with a hand at the end of it).

beameup
June 30th, 2017, 06:35 AM
At about 1:47 he says that the image of a hand was/is the letter "Yad", (hand), but that really is not the case because it is most commonly known as Yod, (Yodh), or Yud, and moreover the pictograph-symbol is clearly not just a hand but an ARM, (with a hand at the end of it).

Here is the Pictorial Hebrew (above) and the Babylonian "square" Script:
https://rjaybee.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/handnail.png

daqq
June 30th, 2017, 06:55 AM
Here is the Pictorial Hebrew (above) and the Babylonian "square" Script:
https://rjaybee.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/handnail.png

Problem is now you have an arm, not a hand, (yad), and even worse the waw or vav was also used originally in the Ashuri Script as a word separator because, like ancient Uncial Greek texts, the original Hebrew square script was written in "scriptura continua" form, (without spacing), and for the same reason there are manifold places in the LXX where the waw-vav is clearly being recognized as a word separator right in the middle of the Name, (because Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob did not know the Tetragrammaton name of the Father, as per Exodus 6:3). And now, with the Genesis Tablet theory becoming much more widely accepted, this actually makes perfect sense. IMO the first pictograph is better understood as Ya, the (right) Arm of YHWH.

beameup
June 30th, 2017, 07:47 AM
Problem is now you have an arm, not a hand, (yad), and even worse the waw or vav was also used originally in the Ashuri Script as a word separator because, like ancient Uncial Greek texts, the original Hebrew square script was written in "scriptura continua" form, (without spacing), and for the same reason there are manifold places in the LXX where the waw-vav is clearly being recognized as a word separator right in the middle of the Name, (because Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob did not know the Tetragrammaton name of the Father, as per Exodus 6:3). And now, with the Genesis Tablet theory becoming much more widely accepted, this actually makes perfect sense. IMO the first pictograph is better understood as Ya, the (right) Arm of YHWH.

I believe your "sources" of information on Hebrew have not been first-rate.
You seem to be lacking in your understanding of ancient near-East cultures
and the "vocabulary" associated with that early period in man's history.

daqq
June 30th, 2017, 08:48 AM
I believe your "sources" of information on Hebrew have not been first-rate.
You seem to be lacking in your understanding of ancient near-East cultures
and the "vocabulary" associated with that early period in man's history.

Hmmm, one of my better sources is Paul, whom you say preaches your Gospel:

Psalm 68:1-18
1 Elohim arises, His enemies are scattered: and those who hate Him flee before Him!
2 As smoke is driven away, You drive them away; as wax melts before the fire, the wicked perish before Elohim.
3 But the righteous are glad, they exult before Elohim; and they rejoice with gladness.
4 Sing to Elohim, sing praises to His name: raise up a highway for He Who rides through the deserts, and exult before Him, His name is Yah.
5 A father to orphans, and an Advocate of widows, this is Elohim in His holy habitation.
6 Elohim makes a home for the lonely, He brings out to prosperity those who are bound with chains; only the rebellious shall dwell in a dry-arid land.
7 O Elohim, when You went out before Your people, when You stepped through the wilderness: (Pause)
8 The earth shook, and the heavens dropped before Elohim; this Sinai shook before Elohim, the Elohim of Yisrael.
9 You, O Elohim, sent a shower of plenty: You confirmed Your inheritance when it was weary.
10 Your flock dwelt therein, You provided from Your goodness for the poor, O Elohim.
11 YHWH gave the Word, and the women who proclaimed it were a great company.
12 Kings of armies fled in haste, and she who remained at home divided the spoil.
13 Though you have lien between hooks, (or dwelt among lips), Wings of a dove, overlaid with silver, and feathers overlaid with bright gold!
14 When the Almighty scattered kings therein, it snowed in Tsalmon.
15 A hill of Elohim is the hill of Bashan; a hill of heights is the hill of Bashan:
16 O high hills, why should you envy the mount which Elohim has desired for His Seat? YHWH tabernacles therein continually.
17 The chariots of Elohim are two myriads and thousands of thousands: Adoni came from Sinai, into the Holy Sanctuary.
18 You have ascended on High, You have led captivity captive, You have apportioned gifts among men: Yea, that even among those having been turned away, Yah Elohim might dwell.

Ephesians 4:4-15
4 One body, and one Spirit, even as you also were called in one expectation of your calling:
5 One Master, one faith, one immersion:
6 One Elohim and Father of all, Who is over all, and through all, and in all.
7 But unto each one of us was the grace given according to the measure of the gift of Messiah.
8 Wherefore he says, "When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men." Psa 68:18
9 Moreover this, "he ascended", what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.
11 And he gave some to be apostles, and some to be prophets, and some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers:
12 For the perfecting of the holy ones, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Messiah:
13 Until we all attain unto the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of Elohim, unto a full grown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Messiah:
14 That we may no longer be babes, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error:
15 But speaking truth in love, may grow up in all things into him who is the head, Messiah:

Paul quotes Psalm 68:18 and directly applies it to the Meshiah, the Son of Elohim, and Psalm 68:18 speaks of the Son of YHWH Elohim: and that is by the plain text, YHWH Elohim gave the Word, Yah Elohim.

beameup
June 30th, 2017, 09:08 AM
Hmmm, one of my better sources is Paul, whom you say preaches your Gospel:
My Gospel?? :confused:

The subject of the Original Post is the Original Hebrew Language, ie: Pictographic (hieroglyphic) Hebrew
This reveals the non-Greek, ("Asian") "worldview" of ancient Hebrews, and the language that resulted from that worldview and cosmology.
Perhaps you are limited by the strictly "logical" worldview derived from Greek culture.

daqq
June 30th, 2017, 10:32 AM
My Gospel?? :confused:

The subject of the Original Post is the Original Hebrew Language, ie: Pictographic (hieroglyphic) Hebrew
This reveals the non-Greek, ("Asian") "worldview" of ancient Hebrews, and the language that resulted from that worldview and cosmology.
Perhaps you are limited by the strictly "logical" worldview derived from Greek culture.

Do you suppose that those who rendered the LXX did not understand what they were reading? If so, big mistake, because they had a better understanding than what is known by much of scholarship even today; and they actually did not even read the text in the way that scholarship reads it today because the text is not written the same way anymore. The original Babylonian Ashuri Script did not even contain final form letters, and the words within a line of text were not separated by anything more than the waw-vav, (making it extremely difficult to read and understand). In that form of the text the waw-vav was sometimes read as part of a word and sometimes as nothing more than a word separator. That is precisely why you will find the Tetragrammaton in some places in the modern Hebrew text where the LXX reads Theos instead, (which is now of course mostly rendered as "God" in English translations, but that is not always what they intended, for "Yah" is also rendered Theos in the LXX in various places, (and some of those places are unknown to most for lack of serious study)).

Moreover I quoted a Psalm and I quoted the apostle Paul quoting from that Psalm in my previous post. Are you now claiming Paul is a Hellenizer too? I say your idea of "cosmology" is nothing more than a nice sounding word for make-up artistry because you and your OP video-clip author cannot even tell the difference between a pictograph of a fully jointed arm with a hand and a simple hand by itself. How can you not know the difference between an arm and a hand and think yourselves to be so wise? If your paradigm blinders cause you to look at a fully formed stick-figure arm, with a hand at the end of it, and yet the only thing you see is a hand, then you have a much more serious problem with your thick dogma glasses than to need to worry about Hellenization. :chuckle:

chair
July 1st, 2017, 04:05 PM
Here is the Pictorial Hebrew (above) and the Babylonian "square" Script:
https://rjaybee.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/handnail.png

Where does the pictorial "behold" appear in that video?

daqq
July 1st, 2017, 08:01 PM
Where does the pictorial "behold" appear in that video?

There is no physical archeological evidence anywhere of the Name having been written in the "Hyksos" Egyptian glyphs that we see plastered all over the internet and in this thread. It really is pretty much an internet phenomenon being fomented by way of drawings and charts made on computers and that's it. The fact is that there really is no true physical evidence at all. The "Hyksos" never wrote the Name because they were Egyptian slaves working in turquoise mines and did not worship or even know the Name. They apparently came up with their own crude alphabet based on what they had seen and the little they had learned from Egyptian hieroglyphs. The "man with his hands raised", (which you see in red in the post you quoted), is also nothing more than someone's imagination depicting a forced graphic representation of an original glyph that looks much more like a crooked cactus. There really is not even any evidence that the actual image is supposed to depict a man with his hands raised up; the interpretation is nothing more than a guess. If you search google image files for the Hyksos version of the letter Hey you will see what I mean: nowhere will you find an actual carving of what you see in red above, but rather, you will find what looks like a three-pronged cactus with a bent stump on the bottom of it. Moreover these Hyksos etchings are only found in about three main places which are all close to Egypt. There is not even a shred of solid evidence that this is indeed, "ancient Hebrew", (lol).

daqq
July 1st, 2017, 08:12 PM
This appears to be from the same author as the OP video clip:

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/files/alephbet_evolution_5.gif
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/alphabet_evolution.html

Apparently the red version of the letter Hey is the PC-generated Hyksos Version 2.0. :)

6days
July 1st, 2017, 09:11 PM
The origin of the Hebrew alphabet, may have had nothing to do with simple pictographs, but we can't be sure. Adam was created with language and intelligence, so he may also have had the ability to of complex written language.

beameup
July 1st, 2017, 09:31 PM
There is no physical archeological evidence anywhere of the Name having been written in the "Hyskos" Egyptian glyphs

Yet another example, by daq, of diversion with fake information to confuse the nave.
The Hyksos were Semitic invaders from Mesopotamia, who took over Lower Egypt and forced the native Egyptians into Upper Egypt. The Hyksos were in control of the Delta region when Joseph was brought into Egypt. Joseph found favor because, like the Hyksos Pharaoh, he was Semite.
By the time of Moses, the Hyksos had long been overthrown, and forced to flee Egypt via the Mediterranean.
So, the Pharaoh of Moses didn't know about Joseph, he only knew that the Hebrews were non-Egyptian Semites, and so were made slaves.

chair
July 1st, 2017, 09:56 PM
Yet another example, by daq, of diversion with fake information to confuse the nave.
The Hyksos were Semitic invaders from Mesopotamia, who took over Lower Egypt and forced the native Egyptians into Upper Egypt. The Hyksos were in control of the Delta region when Joseph was brought into Egypt. Joseph found favor because, like the Hyksos Pharaoh, he was Semite.
By the time of Moses, the Hyksos had long been overthrown, and forced to flee Egypt via the Mediterranean.
So, the Pharaoh of Moses didn't know about Joseph, he only knew that the Hebrews were non-Egyptian Semites, and so were made slaves.

He was pointing out that there was no physical evidence of that pictograph. If there is, please post a link to the evidence- not someone's drawing, but a photo of that pictograph.

chair
July 2nd, 2017, 08:32 AM
I believe your "sources" of information on Hebrew have not been first-rate.
You seem to be lacking in your understanding of ancient near-East cultures
and the "vocabulary" associated with that early period in man's history.

I think you are confusing the language with the way it is written. Languages are spoken. Writing, especially alphabetic writing, is a way of recording the language. Though the letters may have started out as pictographs, once they are letters, the pictograph origin of the letter is no longer important.

SonOfCaleb
July 2nd, 2017, 09:07 AM
The origin of the Hebrew alphabet, may have had nothing to do with simple pictographs, but we can't be sure. Adam was created with language and intelligence, so he may also have had the ability to of complex written language.

Hebrew was the language that Adam spoke. It was also the language of Noah and Shem whose language was not changed post flood after Babel. Hebrew has never struck me as being a pictographic language as the early Hebrew language that Abraham spoke much less the antideluvian variant isn't known. That said it is the first and original language known to mankind, although the Hebrew appellation would have been used after the flood. I guess there would have been no need to give the language a name in the antediluvian world as all of mankind spoke the same language anyway.

daqq
July 2nd, 2017, 09:52 AM
Yet another example, by daq, of diversion with fake information to confuse the nave.
The Hyksos were Semitic invaders from Mesopotamia, who took over Lower Egypt and forced the native Egyptians into Upper Egypt. The Hyksos were in control of the Delta region when Joseph was brought into Egypt. Joseph found favor because, like the Hyksos Pharaoh, he was Semite.
By the time of Moses, the Hyksos had long been overthrown, and forced to flee Egypt via the Mediterranean.
So, the Pharaoh of Moses didn't know about Joseph, he only knew that the Hebrews were non-Egyptian Semites, and so were made slaves.

How is it a diversion to state a fact? Facts are facts, there is no archeological evidence where the Tetragrammaton has ever been found written in the Hyksos pictographs: nowhere, nada, nothing, none. The only place one may find the Tetragrammaton written in the Hyksos pictographic alphabet is on the internet and in threads like this one. Can you show me a stela, a monument, a tomb etching, a tablet, a cave carving, a pottery shard, or at least something? Nope, you cannot, but you can certainly post a plethora of slick looking PC-generated graphics, right? So who needs facts, right? Facts are apparently nothing more than a diversion if you truly want to beleeeve what Beameup beleeeves!

chair
July 2nd, 2017, 09:36 PM
I guess beameup is on vacation- no responses from him recently....

beameup
July 3rd, 2017, 01:03 AM
I think you are confusing the language with the way it is written. Languages are spoken. Writing, especially alphabetic writing, is a way of recording the language. Though the letters may have started out as pictographs, once they are letters, the pictograph origin of the letter is no longer important.
Like Egyptian hieroglyphics, the origins of Hebrew are Pictographic in nature. The graph is to convey a concept via illustration.
The Semitic Hyksos were invaders and conquerors of Northern Egypt from Mesopotamia. As such, they would have used cuneiform to write their Aramaic.
Once Hebrew evolved into nothing more than an alphabet, then it became detached from its original pictorial concepts. The original "concepts" were then forgotten.

*note the Proto-Hebrew's origins in Phoenician, which later became the basis for the Greek alphabet. So, the changes in Hebrew began early-on.
PS: What do you think the "writing" on the stone tablets, from Sinai, was??

chair
July 3rd, 2017, 02:05 AM
Like Egyptian hieroglyphics, the origins of Hebrew are Pictographic in nature. The graph is to convey a concept via illustration.

Languages are spoken. Writing is a way of recording a language. Hebrew may have been written in a pictographic way, but it was never "pictographic in nature". Neither was ancient Egyptian, for that matter. Just the writing was pictographic, not the language.



The Semitic Hyksos were invaders and conquerors of Northern Egypt from Mesopotamia. As such, they would have used cuneiform to write their Aramaic.
Once Hebrew evolved into nothing more than an alphabet, then it became detached from its original pictorial concepts. The original "concepts" were then forgotten.

I am aware of the Hyksos, thank you. The Hebrew alphabet evolved over time, but the language itself was never pictographic. Do you think there were only 22 words in Hebrew back then?


*note the Proto-Hebrew's origins in Phoenician, which later became the basis for the Greek alphabet. So, the changes in Hebrew began early-on.
PS: What do you think the "writing" on the stone tablets, from Sinai, was??
The writing was ancient Hebrew writing. Of course. not your made-up symbols, but similar to those actually found by archaeologists.

beameup
July 3rd, 2017, 03:45 AM
The writing was ancient Hebrew writing. Of course. not your made-up symbols, but similar to those actually found by archaeologists.
Around Jabal al Lawz are found the pictographic Hebrew writings.
It is strictly "off limits" by the Saudi government; however,
a few have been able to successfully sneak into the area.
One of particular interest is a Korean who was the personal
physician of the King. Another was Cornuke and Williams.

PS: keep in mind that Moses lived in and was familiar with Midian.

Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law,
the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside
of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb. - Exodus 3:1

If one considers that the language of Hebrew was inspired by G_d, then perhaps there lies a much deeper and multi-layered meaning behind the original written and spoken language.

chair
July 3rd, 2017, 04:00 AM
Around Jabal al Lawz are found the pictographic Hebrew writings.
It is strictly "off limits" by the Saudi government; however,
a few have been able to successfully sneak into the area.
One of particular interest is a Korean who was the personal
physician of the King. Another was Cornuke and Williams.

PS: keep in mind that Moses lived in and was familiar with Midian.


If one considers that the language of Hebrew was inspired by G_d, then perhaps there lies a much deeper and multi-layered meaning behind the original written and spoken language.

So the only evidence that your drawings are accurate is mysteriously unavailable. Got it.

Was the writing inspired by God or Egyptian Hieroglyphics? which is it?

beameup
July 3rd, 2017, 04:19 AM
So the only evidence that your drawings are accurate is mysteriously unavailable. Got it.

Do see a lack of genuine interest on your part?
I do believe that cameras and yes even video camcorders have existed for awhile now.
But I would not want to "inconvenience" anyone.
Best to just stick with the Sinai peninsula where the Catholics "discovered" Mt. Sinai. :rotfl:

chair
July 3rd, 2017, 04:46 AM
Do see a lack of genuine interest on your part?
I do believe that cameras and yes even video camcorders have existed for awhile now.
But I would not want to "inconvenience" anyone.
Best to just stick with the Sinai peninsula where the Catholics "discovered" Mt. Sinai. :rotfl:

Post a link to some real evidence.

beameup
July 3rd, 2017, 05:17 AM
Hebrew was the language that Adam spoke. It was also the language of Noah and Shem whose language was not changed post flood after Babel.
Is this something Charles Taze Russel told you, or was this Rutherford's idea?
BTW, didn't Rutherford build a mansion in San Diego for Elijah, but ended up living in it himself?

beameup
July 3rd, 2017, 05:18 AM
Post a link to some real evidence.

You mean like the dozen verses from that Tanakh that "pin-point" the true location of the Temple? :rotfl:

BTW, I have serious doubts of credibility from someone who claims to be a descendent of Levites from the time of Moses, when they don't really even believe in the Exodus from Egypt.

chair
July 3rd, 2017, 05:25 AM
You mean like the dozen verses from that Tanakh that "pin-point" the true location of the Temple? :rotfl:

The topic of discussion here is the Hebrew language, and your claims about the pictographic character of ancient Hebrew. You are changing the topic in order to avoid presenting evidence- evidence that you clearly don't have.


BTW, I have serious doubts of credibility from someone who claims to be a descendent of Levites from the time of Moses, when they don't really even believe in the Exodus from Egypt.

You can have serious doubts as much as you want. I am a Levite, and I know there was an Exodus from Egypt. Now get back to the subject. Where is your evidence?

beameup
July 3rd, 2017, 08:28 AM
I am a Levite, and I know there was an Exodus from Egypt. Now get back to the subject. Where is your evidence?

Someone who "claims" to be descendent of the Levitical priesthood, and yet has :mock: no interest in finding their "roots".... nah, I don't think I'll bite :nono:

chair
July 3rd, 2017, 08:42 AM
Someone who "claims" to be descendent of the Levitical priesthood, and yet has :mock: no interest in finding their "roots".... nah, I don't think I'll bite :nono:

I am very interested. I've read many books about Biblical archaeology, and personally know several archaeologists. I have been studying the Bible in Hebrew for decades. The last time I visited a dig was four days ago.

I am very interested in real information. I am not interested in unsupported nonsense that shows up on the internet.

So if you have real information, and real sources- let's see them. Don't avoid it by attacking me.

Put up or shut up.

Chair

daqq
July 3rd, 2017, 08:58 AM
Someone who "claims" to be descendent of the Levitical priesthood, and yet has :mock: no interest in finding their "roots".... nah, I don't think I'll bite :nono:

Sheesh, and you suppose that you understand his "roots" better than he does?
Only on the internet I tell you! Only on the internet! :rotfl:

daqq
July 4th, 2017, 02:16 PM
So the only evidence that your drawings are accurate is mysteriously unavailable. Got it.

Was the writing inspired by God or Egyptian Hieroglyphics? which is it?

Hmmm . . . "Egyptian Hieroglyphics" . . . :think: :chuckle:

daqq
July 4th, 2017, 02:17 PM
Here is the Pictorial Hebrew (above) and the Babylonian "square" Script:
https://rjaybee.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/handnail.png


Also, the "arm with hand" is more anciently an Egyptian hieroglyphic symbol for the syllabic sound "Ah", (technically not a primary letter). After searching over the past several days I have not been able to actually find any real evidence that the yodh was even written in the "Hyksos" Proto-Sinaitic script with an "arm and hand" as your image file shows. Although there is plenty of speculation there are also plenty more who disagree and some sites which entirely avoid discussing the yodh because apparently there is not enough evidence to show that it was indeed the symbol of the arm and hand. Thus you might not even have the spelling correct in your interpretation of the Name, (going by the image file you have provided), because the "arm and hand" may actually have been the symbol for the sound "Ah" taken straight from well known older Egyptian hieroglyphics. It is difficult to see how anyone can claim they know any of these things for sure because it is all speculative; some good, and some not so good.


https://discoveringegypt.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/GlyphAH.jpg
Egyptian Hieroglyphic Alphabet (https://discoveringegypt.com/egyptian-hieroglyphic-writing/egyptian-hieroglyphic-alphabet/)


You might do better to start guessing along the lines of the reed symbol:


https://discoveringegypt.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/GlyphI.jpg

https://discoveringegypt.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/GlyphY.jpg
Egyptian Hieroglyphic Alphabet (https://discoveringegypt.com/egyptian-hieroglyphic-writing/egyptian-hieroglyphic-alphabet/)


It is possible that the two strokes at the top of the later Paleo Yodh may have originally stood for two reeds:


http://www.truthfromgod.com/images/Hebrew/Hebrew%20Alphabet.png


It is also possible that the bottom stroke of the Paleo Yodh may have developed over a relatively short time by way of the simple process of scribes copying scrolls, (writing from the right to the left this would make sense if the yodh was written starting with a bottom stroke of the stem, upwards, and finishing with the two strokes at the top of the letter).


https://planofgod.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/alphabet-paint-new4.png
https://planofgod.wordpress.com/2012/07/15/ktav-ivrit-%E2%80%8Bthe-ancient-hebrew-alphabet/

Moreover, Jeff A. Benner, (from the video in the opening post), references Dr. Douglas Petrovich on his website, (here (http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/alphabet_oldest.html)), who himself suggests that the symbol of the "man with his hands raised" equates to the word halal, (praise, joy, halal, hallu, and so on), and thus the supposed reasoning for the several different versions of the man with his hands raised. But not even he suggests that the original root word that is used for each letter should be rendered as a meaning for the letter.

The translation provided in the image file you have posted is therefore not even correct to begin with, "behold the nail behold the arm / hand", because, for one, it reads backwards in English; and for two, the "arm and hand" glyph is unproven as to whether it even belongs in the Name because the Name is found nowhere written in the Proto-Sinaitic script; and for three, the "arm and hand" glyph might not even be the "Y" sound but rather the "Ah" syllabic sound taken straight from previously well known Egyptian hieroglyphs; and fourthly, there is visual evidence to the contrary from the Egyptian hieroglyph for the "Y" sound, (two reeds), and "I" sound, (one reed), and from the Paleo Hebrew texts for the Yodh as shown above herein, (which is also yet nothing more than speculative), and furthermore, fifthly, the letter "He" is supposedly, (by Dr. D. Petrovich), not from a root meaning "to behold" but rather "to celebrate", or "to rejoice", or even or "to praise", (halal), but last of all, and most importantly: the reason Egyptian hieroglyphs took so long to understand and interpet is because for a very long time scholarship thought the symbols represented whole words instead of the first letter of each word which the pictorial glyphs represented. This is the very same thing your image file is doing, and it is fallacy: the letter "He" does not stand for "halal" or "praise" or "rejoice", or even "behold", and so on, but rather it only stands for the letter "He", (the sound made with that letter). Likewise the "arm and hand", (if it is even supposed to be there, as you presume), would not stand for "yad", or "hand", (as in "behold the hand"), but rather only stands for the letter Yodh, (the "Y" sound).

beameup
July 5th, 2017, 01:17 AM
:blabla:
The "hand-forearm" symbol is perfectly suited, as God intended it to be. Only a spike through the "pulse" region, between the two bones, would support the weight of a body.
https://askgramps.org/files/2014/12/jesus-crucified-2.jpg

That would be through the Median Nerve and the most painful location for a Roman spike.
http://reason.landmarkbiblebaptist.net/AMA/ChristNailingOfWrists.jpg

chair
July 5th, 2017, 01:49 AM
We were discussing the origins of the Hebrew alphabet. An Alphabet that predates the Roman period by thousands of years. The technical side of crucifying somebody is not relevant.

daqq
July 5th, 2017, 01:54 AM
The "hand-forearm" symbol is perfectly suited, as God intended it to be. Only a spike through the "pulse" region, between the two bones, would support the weight of a body.
https://askgramps.org/files/2014/12/jesus-crucified-2.jpg

That would be through the Median Nerve and the most painful location for a Roman spike.
http://reason.landmarkbiblebaptist.net/AMA/ChristNailingOfWrists.jpg


The problem is we are speaking about the Name of the Father, who is non-corporeal SPIRIT, and does not have a physical body. The only reason what you have proposed seems "perfectly suited" to you is because your own pre-conceived STIPULATION must insist, without any evidence, that "Jesus is YHWH", (even in the face of manifold evidence against what your doctrine must insist upon in all cases). In other words your faulty doctrine is the king of your thinking process because your faulty dogma is allowed to dictate to you what is and what is not "perfectly suited" to what you already wish to believe. Loose the faulty doctrine and you might come to realize that what you have proposed is only "perfectly suited" if you believe the Father is a MAN who was crucified by His own creation, (which is outrageously absurd). And because you believe such nonsense you cannot fathom the possibility that your thinking and judgment might be clouded or distorted. Your response only confirms what you have already made clear in other posts and statements: you found some great looking computer generated artwork that supports your presupposed doctrinal paradigm, and you will not let go of it no matter how erroneous it might be proven to be, and no matter whether or not there is any real evidence for it to be found anywhere. You are simply on a mission to prove your own previously held dogma rather than a mission to seek out truth, however, your dogma is already anathema according to what is written in the scripture; so you will likely spin your own wheels for the rest of your life chasing down ways to prove nothing more than your own ill-conceived dogma to justify your thinking, (and thus yourself), because you have already turned away from the truth found in the scripture, (the Father is not a man and that is plain as day in the scripture).

beameup
July 5th, 2017, 02:40 AM
We were discussing the origins of the Hebrew alphabet. An Alphabet that predates the Roman period by thousands of years. The technical side of crucifying somebody is not relevant.
So, you are saying that your "god" doesn't have foreknowledge?

If a man has committed a sin worthy of death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day, for he who is hanged is accursed of God" - Deuteronomy 21:22-23a
Actually, it was the Assyrians who perfected execution by impalement on wood (read Esther and history).

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the LAW, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree - Galatians 3:13

chair
July 5th, 2017, 02:53 AM
So, you are saying that your "god" doesn't have foreknowledge?

“If a man has committed a sin worthy of death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day, for he who is hanged is accursed of God" - Deuteronomy 21:22-23a
Actually, it was the Assyrians who perfected execution by impalement on wood (read Esther and history).

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the LAW, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree - Galatians 3:13

First of all- it is your god, not mine.
Secondly, god did not make up this alphabet. Humans did.
And finally, you have demonstrated once again that you are not logical and don't have facts to support your ideas.

I know you fervently believe this stuff, but it is just internet nonsense. Hard to accept that, but that is the fact. I can't spend more time pointing out how wrong all of this is. You'll have to use the brain that the god or gods of your choice gave you to figure this out.

beameup
July 5th, 2017, 04:09 AM
First of all- it is your god, not mine.
Your God came down to you at Sinai. Your ancestors saw God. Your elders sat at his feet.
So now, your God is "aloof" and will not have direct contact with you.
But you hope that He will send an emissary, a "human" representative,
to make the world right, and reestablish Israel as the leading nation on earth?

daqq
July 5th, 2017, 04:38 AM
And there is yet more Beameup. In the following inscription from Wadi el-Hol, (which is one of the inscriptions discussed by Dr. Petrovich and Jeff A. Benner), there is a symbol next to the word for "El" which is not translated because apparently no one is quite sure what it is, and it sure looks familiar, (lol), while the speculation by some is that it may be what is called a "divine determinative", (a "divinity marker" used in connection with divine names to signify some sort of divine nature or importance to the name). At the very bottom of the following image file is the ox-head and lamed for the word El, directly above is what sure looks like a paleo yod with the two stems at the top closed up, (perhaps like the modern yod might be supposed to represent), and at the same time it is placed higher than the word it is accentuating similarly to the way the yod is higher than the rest of the script even in modern times, (as if floating or heavenly, that is, not touching the "ground" or bottom level of the text).

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_hj_l4_GAes/T6ujiUH2R3I/AAAAAAAAAK8/YnKiT7Vd4PQ/s1600/Plate+III.png
http://msheflin.blogspot.com/2012/05/wadi-el-hol-translation.html

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sbdvnmf9bno/T6ujo8XSofI/AAAAAAAAALM/qOmhfRJcjtE/s1600/Plate+V.png

"The Egyptian divine-determinative nṯr is certainly placed above Ilu’s name, and may unclearly be drawn next to Aṯtar’s name.The Horizontal Inscription also evidences a probable simplification of the cuneiform divine determinative. Hamilton speculated it may be a “subscript y?”."
http://msheflin.blogspot.com/2012/05/wadi-el-hol-translation.html

By "subscript y" no doubt the equivalent to yod is meant in the speculation. Now look at the symbol for the yod or "Y" sound, (second row from the bottom), from several other Sinaitic inscriptions, (Sinai 355 and 365, and note that they recognize no "Y" or yod symbol for the inscriptions discussed by Jeff A. Benner and Dr. Petrovich).

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-MWgbO8UBg1M/T6ujVneoT-I/AAAAAAAAAK0/41ndHUQhK5U/s1600/Plate+II.png
http://msheflin.blogspot.com/2012/05/wadi-el-hol-translation.html

Now look below at the letter that is labeled as "ḡ" with the sound "ḡa", (not the "g" sound from gaml or gimel), near the bottom of the list. Again, it sure looks familiar, that is, much like a yod, and look across the same row to the middle column which shows the early south Semitic yod, (which is open ended just like the later paleo yod).


http://www.apocalypse2008-2015.com/images/Proto-Sinaitic_Table.gif

Here is a better image file of the same glyph in the far right bottom corner:

Proto-Sinaitic / Proto-Canaanite script
"This is one version of the Proto-Canaanite script using Phoenician/Hebrew alphabetical order. The actual arrangement of letters used is uncertain. Most letters have more than one shape."

https://www.omniglot.com/images/writing/protosinaitic.gif
https://www.omniglot.com/writing/protosinaitc.htm

Note the question mark below where the description is found for the other letters: whatever the symbol is supposed to represent is unknown, (and thus the sound, "ḡa", is conjecture). So it is also possible that the yod began as somewhat of a divine determinative or divinity marker. If this were true, and those who rendered the Septuagint understood this, one might expect to find evidence of this, such as examples where names that begin with a yod are for some strange reason rendered with an eta, (just as was done with Yeshayahu, "Ησαιας", even though his name begins with a yodh in Hebrew). It could very well be that Yeshayahu was considered an "elohim" of divine-judge-prophet status just as the scripture says of the judges, princes, and rulers of Israel, so that the yodh at the beginning of his name may have been treated as both a divine marker as well as a letter, (which perhaps in their thinking called for a change from the yod-equivalent Greek Iota to instead an Eta at the beginning of his name).

More importantly for this entire topic: consider what the same thinking might imply when it comes to The Name which we are discussing, ("He Who Exists", "He Who Is", "The Existing One", "The Being", etc., Y-HWH).

chair
July 5th, 2017, 04:52 AM
Your God came down to you at Sinai. Your ancestors saw God. Your elders sat at his feet.
So now, your God is "aloof" and will not have direct contact with you.
But you hope that He will send an emissary, a "human" representative,
to make the world right, and reestablish Israel as the leading nation on earth?


If you want to discuss theology, by all means. In another thread. Then you can explain all those wonderful things that Jesus hasn't quite gotten around to yet, but will get to. Real soon now.

beameup
July 5th, 2017, 05:25 AM
from several other Sinaitic inscriptions

The Hebrews never spent more than a 24 hour day, or so, in Sinai.
The Hebrews went directly from "Egypt" proper into Midian (Saudi Arabia).
Whatever you might find in "Sinai" peninsula is not of Hebrew origin (although there may be similarities).

beameup
July 5th, 2017, 05:31 AM
If you want to discuss theology, by all means. In another thread. Then you can explain all those wonderful things that Jesus hasn't quite gotten around to yet, but will get to. Real soon now.

No, your "expectations" of a "messiah" will never allow a total and complete (eternal) connection with the eternal God; the one that brought you out of Egypt into the "promised land".

chair
July 5th, 2017, 06:20 AM
No, your "expectations" of a "messiah" will never allow a total and complete (eternal) connection with the eternal God; the one that brought you out of Egypt into the "promised land".

Whatever.
Have a nice day.

daqq
July 5th, 2017, 12:42 PM
The Hebrews never spent more than a 24 hour day, or so, in Sinai.
The Hebrews went directly from "Egypt" proper into Midian (Saudi Arabia).
Whatever you might find in "Sinai" peninsula is not of Hebrew origin (although there may be similarities).

:doh: Well, I tried, have a nice thread. :wave2:




http://theologyonline.com/images/metro/blue/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by RevTestament http://theologyonline.com/images/metro/blue/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?p=5053073#post5053073)
Daqq since you insist only the Father is named YHWH, I would like you to explain why the Father would use this name of Himself if the letters individually mean Behold the nail, Behold the hand?
Yeah, I know where that idea comes from, but have seen no one actually prove it to be true.
RevTestament - I was hoping you might see this thread and join in but it appears you have not been around since we had this exchange, (which is why I quote your post here, just to bring it to your attention).