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Robert Pate
June 27th, 2017, 02:02 PM
Please read carefully, this article could make a difference in the way that you believe.

The Bible makes it clear that man is a sinner. Paul wrote, "There is none righteous, no, not one, Romans 3:10. When Paul wrote that he was quoting Psalm 14:1-3. Man is born a sinner, Psalm 51:5. Lives his life as a sinner and dies a sinner. There are two kinds of sinners, saved sinners and lost sinners. The question in many theological circles is... how does this sinner become just before a Holy God?

If you are of the Catholic faith, then you probably believe that your sinful nature can be re-habilitated by the works of the law or by doing religious works. The Bible does not support that belief and then there are the Calvinist that declare that they were chosen to be saved before the foundation of the world and God damned the rest to hell. This is very hard to believe. To believe that you must believe that God is an unjust, heartless tyrant.

What does the Bible say? How does God deal with fallen man? You can rest assured, that all that God does in his relationship with fallen man is done in holiness, in justice, in mercy and in righteousness. God cannot and will not, sin against himself or his created beings. If you believe that he does, then you are lost and without hope.

The scripture says, "But when the fullness of time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman made under the law to redeem them that were under the law, that he might receive the adoption of sons, Galatians 4:4, 5. This article is about how God did that through his Son Jesus Christ.

He didn't do it by re-habilitating them, nor did he do it be predestinating them. Those methods are not what God does because they are illegal. God provides a salvation that is both morale and legally correct. In the Gospel Jesus embraces our humanity and becomes God's new Adam and our new humanity. Jesus comes into the world to do for us that which we cannot do for ourselves. God requires two things for the salvation of fallen man.

1. A life of perfect obedience according to God's holy law.
2. A perfect atonement for man's sins and the sins of the whole world.

In our name and on our behalf, both of these requirements have been fully met by Jesus Christ.

This is why Paul wrote, "And you are complete in him (Jesus) which is the head of all principality and power" Colossians 2:10.

If we are complete "In Christ" then what else do we need? Do we need to be re-habilitated? Do we need to be predestinated? If God sees us as complete "In Christ" that is it, you have been signed, sealed and delivered by the doing and the dying of Jesus. Jesus has victoriously come into the world to defeat sin, death and the devil. Having done that God welcomes Jesus back into heaven and makes him... "The King of Kings and the Lord of Lords" Revelation 19:16. Its over, its finished and Jesus is Lord.

I will be gone for a few days.

jamie
June 27th, 2017, 03:15 PM
There are two kinds of sinners, saved sinners and lost sinners.


The expression "saved sinners" is not biblical.

Sin brings condemnation. There is no condemnation for those in Christ.

patrick jane
June 27th, 2017, 04:03 PM
The expression "saved sinners" is not biblical.

Sin brings condemnation. There is no condemnation for those in Christ.We're all still sinners, we continue to sin

glorydaz
June 27th, 2017, 04:20 PM
We're all still sinners, we continue to sin

I'm a saint.


Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:


GOD has always differentiated between the righteous and the unrighteous....between sinners and saints. It's only man that continues to call himself a sinner after God calls him righteous.

Even in the verse about "none" righteous....it is talking about the unbelievers, the workers of iniquity. Paul is merely quoting from Psalms. The fact that there ARE righteous people is shown in the text.


Psalm 14
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord. 5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

I'm addressing this to you, PJ, because poor Robert is going to the hospital, and I didn't want him to be bothered with this "correction". :chuckle:

patrick jane
June 27th, 2017, 04:32 PM
I'm a saint.

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:


GOD has always differentiated between the righteous and the unrighteous....between sinners and saints. It's only man that continues to call himself a sinner after God calls him righteous.

Even in the verse about "none" righteous....it is talking about the unbelievers, the workers of iniquity. Paul is merely quoting from Psalms. The fact that there ARE righteous people is shown in the text.

Psalm 14
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord. 5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

I'm addressing this to you, PJ, because poor Robert is going to the hospital, and I didn't want him to be bothered with this "correction". :chuckle::chuckle:


I knew that I think. We have the righteousness of Christ Romans 5:1 KJV -

But we do still sin, don't we?

glorydaz
June 27th, 2017, 05:15 PM
:chuckle:


I knew that I think. We have the righteousness of Christ Romans 5:1 KJV -

But we do still sin, don't we?

Sin is transgression of the law, which we have been delivered from.

We are therefore dead to sin. It's why we are saints and not sinners.


Romans 6:17-18 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

The only one who gains by making us see ourselves as "sinners" is the enemy.

patrick jane
June 27th, 2017, 05:33 PM
Sin is transgression of the law, which we have been delivered from.

We are therefore dead to sin. It's why we are saints and not sinners.
Romans 6:17-18 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

The only one who gains by making us see ourselves as "sinners" is the enemy.Thanks glory, I posted the wrong scripture in that previous post :chuckle: I'm half asleep :yawn:

glorydaz
June 27th, 2017, 05:38 PM
Thanks glory, I posted the wrong scripture in that previous post :chuckle: I'm half asleep :yawn:

I must be, too. I didn't even check because I knew which verse you were referring to. So it works either way.

Eagles Wings
June 27th, 2017, 05:44 PM
Thanks glory, I posted the wrong scripture in that previous post :chuckle: I'm half asleep :yawn:

Excuses, excuses.

Oops, another one meant for "sayings" thread.

jamie
June 27th, 2017, 08:06 PM
We're all still sinners, we continue to sin


In what way? And why?

patrick jane
June 27th, 2017, 08:11 PM
In what way? And why?Because I said so :chuckle:

jamie
June 27th, 2017, 08:15 PM
:chuckle:
But we do still sin, don't we?


The temple of God can't be a house of sin.

The two are mutually exclusive, they don't meld.

One or the other goes.

patrick jane
June 27th, 2017, 08:16 PM
Hi Robert !!! :wave2:

jsanford108
June 27th, 2017, 08:57 PM
"In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which holds all beliefs/doctrines of the Catholic Church, we find, in paragraph 432, "the name 'Jesus' signifies that the very name of God is present in the person of his Son, made man for the universal and definitive redemption from sins. It is the divine name alone that brings salvation, and henceforth all can invoke His Name, for Jesus united Himself to all men through His Incarnation, so that 'there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.'

This is only one simple paragraph of many, that demonstrate the Catholic belief and doctrine that Christ alone saves. Any claim to the contrary is simply a falsehood."

This is my quote from just the other day, Pate. I shall attempt (as long as it strikes me humorous) to demonstrate your false teachings and applications to the Catholic Church, by providing actual teachings and doctrines of the Catholic Church.

So once again, you are wrong and a false prophet. There are several other errors in your OP, but I will wait for your return to the thread.

Godspeed in whatever endeavor you are undertaking. I hope all is well.


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Epoisses
June 28th, 2017, 07:00 AM
"In the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which holds all beliefs/doctrines of the Catholic Church, we find, in paragraph 432, "the name 'Jesus' signifies that the very name of God is present in the person of his Son, made man for the universal and definitive redemption from sins. It is the divine name alone that brings salvation, and henceforth all can invoke His Name, for Jesus united Himself to all men through His Incarnation, so that 'there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.'

This is only one simple paragraph of many, that demonstrate the Catholic belief and doctrine that Christ alone saves. Any claim to the contrary is simply a falsehood."

This is my quote from just the other day, Pate. I shall attempt (as long as it strikes me humorous) to demonstrate your false teachings and applications to the Catholic Church, by providing actual teachings and doctrines of the Catholic Church.

So once again, you are wrong and a false prophet. There are several other errors in your OP, but I will wait for your return to the thread.

Godspeed in whatever endeavor you are undertaking. I hope all is well.


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The Catholic and Orthodox churches reject the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone. Ergo they believe that it is Jesus plus our works of merit that save us. Catholics fell away from the gospel a thousand plus years ago and have never recovered.

jsanford108
June 28th, 2017, 09:33 AM
The Catholic and Orthodox churches reject the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone. Ergo they believe that it is Jesus plus our works of merit that save us. Catholics fell away from the gospel a thousand plus years ago and have never recovered.

Please, if you will, provide a verse where the phrase "faith alone" appears in the Scriptures.


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Truster
June 28th, 2017, 09:38 AM
The evangelism is absolute truth and possesses the same power as used when light became and that power which raised Messiah from death. It has no need to refute anything. It stands, it has always stood and it always will stand.

Bard_the_Bowman
June 28th, 2017, 12:26 PM
The Catholic and Orthodox churches reject the Protestant doctrine of justification by faith alone.

Hey Epoisses,

Not necessarily. It depends on what is meant by "faith alone".

If what is meant is something like "intellectual assent alone"...then, yeah, that doctrine is rightly rejected. Even most Protestants, I think, reject that.

If what is meant is something like "faith working through love" as Paul writes about in Galatians 5:6 and in 1 Corinthians 13, well, then that sense of "faith alone" Catholics and non-Catholics could be in agreement on.


Ergo they believe that it is Jesus plus our works of merit that save us.

It is Jesus plus our works of merit that save us? Catholic and Orthodox Churches believe that?

Can you provide some evidence of that please? Thanks.


Catholics fell away from the gospel a thousand plus years ago and have never recovered.

When exactly did that happen and what evidence can you provide that that is true? Thanks.

Peace.

Epoisses
June 28th, 2017, 02:15 PM
Please, if you will, provide a verse where the phrase "faith alone" appears in the Scriptures.


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Romans 4 all but spells out the doctrine of justification by faith alone where Abraham was justified by faith without works or by faith alone.

James on the other hand says that Abraham was justified by his works which simply means that his works were produced by God not himself.

Epoisses
June 28th, 2017, 02:18 PM
Hey Epoisses,

Not necessarily. It depends on what is meant by "faith alone".

If what is meant is something like "intellectual assent alone"...then, yeah, that doctrine is rightly rejected. Even most Protestants, I think, reject that.

If what is meant is something like "faith working through love" as Paul writes about in Galatians 5:6 and in 1 Corinthians 13, well, then that sense of "faith alone" Catholics and non-Catholics could be in agreement on.

It is Jesus plus our works of merit that save us? Catholic and Orthodox Churches believe that?

Can you provide some evidence of that please? Thanks.

When exactly did that happen and what evidence can you provide that that is true? Thanks.

Peace.

A rejection of justification by faith alone automatically puts you in the camp of your works having some form of merit whether it is advocated or not. The works that justify according to James are those produced by love or the royal law of scripture. Sinful human beings cannot produce God's love, it is a gift to the repentant sinner only.

Truster
June 28th, 2017, 02:19 PM
Please, if you will, provide a verse where the phrase "faith alone" appears in the Scriptures.


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Luther added the word "alone" to Romans 3:28 despite being warned not to do so.

Epoisses
June 28th, 2017, 02:20 PM
Luther added the word "alone" to Romans 3:28 despite being warned not to do so.

And no one has been able to topple him for 500 years.

Truster
June 28th, 2017, 02:57 PM
And no one has been able to topple him for 500 years.

To make a statement like that you would need to read his works, but you have already admitted that how haven't even read Bondgae of the Will. So once again you are shouting the odds on something you are not equipped of qualified to do.

Epoisses
June 28th, 2017, 06:43 PM
To make a statement like that you would need to read his works, but you have already admitted that how haven't even read Bondgae of the Will. So once again you are shouting the odds on something you are not equipped of qualified to do.

If there was one man who could topple him it would be John Bunyan who's books have outsold the bible. Also he was funny and entertaining not like some dry theologian.

jsanford108
June 28th, 2017, 07:30 PM
Romans 4 all but spells out the doctrine of justification by faith alone where Abraham was justified by faith without works or by faith alone.

James on the other hand says that Abraham was justified by his works which simply means that his works were produced by God not himself.

These are what you claim the verses say, however, the passages themselves do not allude to any of that.

Romans 4 is about grace. It says we are justified by faith, but that our faith is a grace in itself. As is our justification. It never a makes the declaration of "faith alone" salvation.

James is demonstrating that faith alone does not sustain a person, nor justify them.

By combing the two Scriptures, we get a much clearer doctrine. That faith saves us, and works sustain us. Because either of those alone is useless (James 2). Faith alone is dead. Works alone is dead. However, faith+works is much more biblical and scriptural (and logical) doctrine. It also makes sense when compared with Christ's teachings to "obey my commandments." Faith alone has no need for commandments or any actions whatsoever.

If any doctrine disagrees with a piece of Scripture, it is a faulty doctrine. Hence, faith alone and works alone being rejected for 1500 years after Christ's resurrection, until Luther declared it (an appropriate label of "man-made doctrine" is adequate).


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jsanford108
June 28th, 2017, 07:37 PM
Luther added the word "alone" to Romans 3:28 despite being warned not to do so.

Exactly. Thank you, Truster. And are we not warned against adding to, detracting from, or altering the Scriptures (Revelation explicitly mentions this)? So Luther, while pointing out hypocrisy (which was noble and good) acted as a hypocrite himself, forming a doctrine which was contrary to Scripture, and then twisting verses to fit his perversion.

I really do appreciate you making this point, Truster, as I feel that many Protestants do not know, or choose to ignore, this historical fact. I often feel that when I state this fact, it is dismissed as the invention of a Catholic. I really do wish to express my gratitude and to praise you for being historically accurate in this quote. Thank you.


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Epoisses
June 28th, 2017, 07:48 PM
These are what you claim the verses say, however, the passages themselves do not allude to any of that.

Romans 4 is about grace. It says we are justified by faith, but that our faith is a grace in itself. As is our justification. It never a makes the declaration of "faith alone" salvation.

James is demonstrating that faith alone does not sustain a person, nor justify them.

By combing the two Scriptures, we get a much clearer doctrine. That faith saves us, and works sustain us. Because either of those alone is useless (James 2). Faith alone is dead. Works alone is dead. However, faith+works is much more biblical and scriptural (and logical) doctrine. It also makes sense when compared with Christ's teachings to "obey my commandments." Faith alone has no need for commandments or any actions whatsoever.

If any doctrine disagrees with a piece of Scripture, it is a faulty doctrine. Hence, faith alone and works alone being rejected for 1500 years after Christ's resurrection, until Luther declared it (an appropriate label of "man-made doctrine" is adequate).


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What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Rom. 4:1-6

A faith without works is 'faith alone', unbeliever!

Truster
June 28th, 2017, 11:03 PM
If there was one man who could topple him it would be John Bunyan who's books have outsold the bible. Also he was funny and entertaining not like some dry theologian.

Give an example of Bunyan's being funny and entertaining.

Epoisses
June 29th, 2017, 06:48 AM
Give an example of Bunyan's being funny and entertaining.

Everything is not about proof and example, dude! You need to get out more and mingle.

Truster
June 29th, 2017, 06:51 AM
Everything is not about proof and example, dude! You need to get out more and mingle.

You've been caught out in another figment of your darkened imagination. As usual you try and twist the obvious and pass the blame on to me. FAIL.

Epoisses
June 29th, 2017, 06:52 AM
You've been caught out in another figment of your darkened imagination. As usual you try and twist the obvious and pass the blame on to me. FAIL.

I guarantee you I have read more books by John Bunyan than anyone on this forum including you. He's my favorite author of all time. You're such a D.... A..

Truster
June 29th, 2017, 06:57 AM
I guarantee you I have read more books by John Bunyan than anyone on this forum including you. He's my favorite author of all time. You're such a D.... A..

Big boast and so what? What did the saints do before Bunyan was born or Luther or any other of your idols.

Epoisses
June 29th, 2017, 06:58 AM
Big boast and so what? What did the saints do before Bunyan was born or Luther or any other of your idols.

Do you need a hug?

Bard_the_Bowman
June 29th, 2017, 07:33 AM
A rejection of justification by faith alone automatically puts you in the camp of your works having some form of merit whether it is advocated or not. The works that justify according to James are those produced by love or the royal law of scripture. Sinful human beings cannot produce God's love, it is a gift to the repentant sinner only.

A gift to the repentant sinner?

So repentance is necessary?

Doesn't repentance automatically put you outside of the faith alone camp? You seem to be saying that repentance has merit.

After all, what you are speaking about is faith and repentance.

And you acknowledge that "love" is required for works that justify and that God's love is given to those who repent.

I quite agree with you.

Faith/Belief is needed. Repentance is needed. Love is needed. But the Bible doesn't say any of those are "alone".

It is by God's grace that we are able to have faith, repent, love, etc. It can all be attributed to His grace.

If "faith alone" is such a key doctrine, I always wonder why Paul (or somebody) didn't just say so? I wonder why the Holy Spirit didn't inspire any author of Scripture to write that?

Let me ask you a quick question.

Can a person obtain salvation without having their sins forgiven?

Peace.

jamie
June 29th, 2017, 07:57 AM
"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God" (Hebrews 6:1)

jsanford108
June 29th, 2017, 08:17 AM
A faith without works is 'faith alone', unbeliever!

And faith without works is dead (James 2).


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Epoisses
June 29th, 2017, 04:02 PM
A gift to the repentant sinner?

So repentance is necessary?

Doesn't repentance automatically put you outside of the faith alone camp? You seem to be saying that repentance has merit.

After all, what you are speaking about is faith and repentance.

And you acknowledge that "love" is required for works that justify and that God's love is given to those who repent.

I quite agree with you.

Faith/Belief is needed. Repentance is needed. Love is needed. But the Bible doesn't say any of those are "alone".

It is by God's grace that we are able to have faith, repent, love, etc. It can all be attributed to His grace.

If "faith alone" is such a key doctrine, I always wonder why Paul (or somebody) didn't just say so? I wonder why the Holy Spirit didn't inspire any author of Scripture to write that?

Let me ask you a quick question.

Can a person obtain salvation without having their sins forgiven?

Peace.

Just the ravings of a confused mind.

Epoisses
June 29th, 2017, 04:02 PM
And faith without works is dead (James 2).


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Your faith is dead because your old man is still alive.

genuineoriginal
June 29th, 2017, 04:20 PM
What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Rom. 4:1-6
Did Abraham act on his belief in what God told him or not?

Genesis 15:4-6
4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

A faith without works is 'faith alone', unbeliever!
Does doing the will of the father matter towards your salvation?

Matthew 21:28-31
28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.
31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

Matthew 7:21
21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Bard_the_Bowman
June 29th, 2017, 04:31 PM
Just the ravings of a confused mind.

Oh please. I was merely agreeing with your post #20 where you state:


A rejection of justification by faith alone automatically puts you in the camp of your works having some form of merit whether it is advocated or not. The works that justify according to James are those produced by love or the royal law of scripture. Sinful human beings cannot produce God's love, it is a gift to the repentant sinner only.

You clearly state that "works that justify...are those produced by love..." which "is a gift to repentant sinners."

So in your own words you have shown that you are not in the "faith alone" camp.

You are in the "faith and repentance" camp.

If my agreeing with what you stated is the ravings of a confused mind...what does that say about your mind?

Why are you avoiding my one question to you?

Can a person obtain salvation without having their sins forgiven?

I would appreciate your answer.

Obviously, your response in post #37 is an attempt to bail out of this conversation.

I won't push it. If you want to answer my one question above, great.

If not, ok. Bail out will be complete and this conversation can be over.

Peace to you either way.

jsanford108
June 29th, 2017, 04:47 PM
Your faith is dead because your old man is still alive.

That is the best response you could conceive?

Also, this statement makes no sense. "My faith is dead because my old man is still alive?" Please elaborate.


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Epoisses
June 29th, 2017, 05:13 PM
Oh please. I was merely agreeing with your post #20 where you state:



You clearly state that "works that justify...are those produced by love..." which "is a gift to repentant sinners."

So in your own words you have shown that you are not in the "faith alone" camp.

You are in the "faith and repentance" camp.

If my agreeing with what you stated is the ravings of a confused mind...what does that say about your mind?

Why are you avoiding my one question to you?

Can a person obtain salvation without having their sins forgiven?

I would appreciate your answer.

Obviously, your response in post #37 is an attempt to bail out of this conversation.

I won't push it. If you want to answer my one question above, great.

If not, ok. Bail out will be complete and this conversation can be over.

Peace to you either way.

You can't read properly because love is not something a sinner can produce. Acts of love that justify us are acts that God thru his Spirit does in and thru us.

Epoisses
June 29th, 2017, 05:15 PM
That is the best response you could conceive?

Also, this statement makes no sense. "My faith is dead because my old man is still alive?" Please elaborate.


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I've been down this road with you before and you don't believe so it's pointless to debate an inept buffoon like you.

Christians are justified by faith alone in Christ alone. You're not a Christian, just a poser.

jsanford108
June 29th, 2017, 09:33 PM
I've been down this road with you before and you don't believe so it's pointless to debate an inept buffoon like you.

Christians are justified by faith alone in Christ alone. You're not a Christian, just a poser.

Now name calling? How Christian.

Your statement of "Christians are justified by faith alone in Christ alone," absent of Scriptural evidence, and contrary to what is found in Scripture demonstrates a knowledge that your doctrine is wanting.

jsanford108
June 29th, 2017, 09:34 PM
Your faith is dead because your old man is still alive.

Also, you did not explain this quote.


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Bard_the_Bowman
June 29th, 2017, 10:14 PM
You can't read properly because love is not something a sinner can produce. Acts of love that justify us are acts that God thru his Spirit does in and thru us.

I think my ability to read is adequate.

And I agree with you.

The point is, however, that God works through repentant sinners. That is a point that you yourself made.

So according to your earlier post, repentance is necessary.

Or would you say that repentance is unnecessary??

Now, how about answering this please:

Can a person obtain salvation without having their sins forgiven?

Peace.

jamie
June 29th, 2017, 10:16 PM
Also, you did not explain this quote.


He's saying you are not a new creation.

God's Truth
June 29th, 2017, 11:49 PM
The only way to watch your doctrine and stay out of false religions and denominations is to obey Jesus.

Epoisses
June 30th, 2017, 04:17 AM
Also, you did not explain this quote.


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It would require you to have a brain to understand.

Epoisses
June 30th, 2017, 04:18 AM
I think my ability to read is adequate.

And I agree with you.

The point is, however, that God works through repentant sinners. That is a point that you yourself made.

So according to your earlier post, repentance is necessary.

Or would you say that repentance is unnecessary??

Now, how about answering this please:

Can a person obtain salvation without having their sins forgiven?

Peace.

All of our sins have been forgiven in Christ.

Epoisses
June 30th, 2017, 04:19 AM
He's saying you are not a new creation.

BINGO! He's just a fleshy, carnal and puffed up man.

Bard_the_Bowman
June 30th, 2017, 06:47 AM
All of our sins have been forgiven in Christ.

That doesn't answer my question.

Can a person obtain salvation without having their sins forgiven?

Peace.

jsanford108
June 30th, 2017, 08:35 AM
It would require you to have a brain to understand.

Gnats have brains. It requires logic and intellect to make rational statements.

Luckily, Jaime explained it. It took way less effort for Jaime to simply state reason, than to throw out obscure phrases then avoid explaining them with petty insults.



Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Robert Pate
July 1st, 2017, 12:14 PM
No one will enter heaven that has not been justified by the doing and the dying of Jesus. In Jesus Christ we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30. God sees us as perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.

GT is trying to become perfect and complete in the flesh, instead of "In Christ".

God's Truth
July 1st, 2017, 05:09 PM
No one will enter heaven that has not been justified by the doing and the dying of Jesus. In Jesus Christ we have been justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30. God sees us as perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.

GT is trying to become perfect and complete in the flesh, instead of "In Christ".

Is that what you get out of Jesus' words?

Robert Pate
July 2nd, 2017, 10:11 AM
Is that what you get out of Jesus' words?

The Bible plainly teaches that we are only righteous "In Christ" Romans 3:25,26. Christ is our righteousness.

Outside of Christ you are a sinner, Romans 3:10.

You are always boasting, Romans 3:27, 28.

God's Truth
July 2nd, 2017, 10:36 AM
The Bible plainly teaches that we are only righteous "In Christ" Romans 3:25,26. Christ is our righteousness.

Outside of Christ you are a sinner, Romans 3:10.

You are always boasting, Romans 3:27, 28.

We are only in Christ and Christ is only in us when we obey.

It is not wrong to obey Christ, no matter how much you try to say it is.

Go find out how much Paul boasted.

lifeisgood
July 2nd, 2017, 12:13 PM
We are only in Christ and Christ is only in us when we obey.

So says the one who says:

Jesus is God.

Faith alone does not save it is dead.

====


It is not wrong to obey Christ, no matter how much you try to say it is.

The only one accusing the brethren of such libel is you, gt.


Go find out how much Paul boasted.

Yes, Paul BOASTED IN CHRIST, unlike you, gt, who boasts of obeying ALL of Jesus' commandments and who HAVE NEVER even OBEYED one TO BE SAVED. Not even you, oh, boastful, prideful one. Because when one asks you, gt, 'did you, gt, did you obeyed this commandment of Jesus?' What is your answer, gt? 'Oh, no that one commandment was not for me, but I, gt, boastfully, pridefully, presumptuously declare that I, gt, obey ALL of Jesus' commandments, but you guys don't.'

Robert Pate
July 2nd, 2017, 12:28 PM
We are only in Christ and Christ is only in us when we obey.

It is not wrong to obey Christ, no matter how much you try to say it is.

Go find out how much Paul boasted.


Who is saying that it is wrong to obey Jesus?

You think that you are going to be saved by your obedience to the law. As long as you try to obey the law, you will be under the law and will eventually be judged by the law and condemned.

lifeisgood
July 2nd, 2017, 12:34 PM
The only way to watch your doctrine and stay out of false religions and denominations is to obey Jesus.

Just like you do, gt?

"Everything Jesus says stands forever…. Jesus' words are for everyone.....We ALWAYS have to OBEY God ...We ALWAYS have to OBEY Jesus….........I, gt, OBEY ALL of Jesus' teachings....I, gt, FOLLOW ALL of Jesus teachings, EXACTLY as he says…..Faith is OBEYING EVERYTHING that Jesus says....I, gt, OBEY EVERYTHING Jesus says...."— Courtesy of Saint John W

And then when asked to follow a particular teaching of Jesus, you, gt answering, 'Well, I gt, cannot do that one.' OK. Then, how about this one, gt? 'Hmmm. No, I, gt, cannot follow that one either.' OK. How about this one, then, gt? 'Sorry, no, cannot follow that one either.'

However, I, gt, demand that others follow my, gt, example.

God's Truth
July 2nd, 2017, 02:46 PM
Who is saying that it is wrong to obey Jesus?

YOU DO! LOLLOLLOLLOL
Did you forget that?

So now you too are trying to resort to confusion to defend your lies.

I was waiting for that.

I put up with you calling me unsaved and an idiot for saying we have to obey.

And now we are back to the next thing you rely on, who says it is wrong to obey Jesus.

LOL YOU DO.


You think that you are going to be saved by your obedience to the law.

See, right there ^^^, you just spoke against obeying!



As long as you try to obey the law, you will be under the law and will eventually be judged by the law and condemned.

Obey the law of Christ or keep fighting him and see how that goes for you in the end.

God's Truth
July 2nd, 2017, 03:11 PM
So says the one who says:


====



The only one accusing the brethren of such libel is you, gt.



Yes, Paul BOASTED IN CHRIST, unlike you, gt, who boasts of obeying ALL of Jesus' commandments and who HAVE NEVER even OBEYED one TO BE SAVED. Not even you, oh, boastful, prideful one. Because when one asks you, gt, 'did you, gt, did you obeyed this commandment of Jesus?' What is your answer, gt? 'Oh, no that one commandment was not for me, but I, gt, boastfully, pridefully, presumptuously declare that I, gt, obey ALL of Jesus' commandments, but you guys don't.'

Paul boasted in his obedience and in the obedience of others. He probably had those in falseness like you who said he was boasting about obeying, so he did and shuts you all up.

It. is. not. wrong. to. obey. Jesus. and. you. cannot. shame. people. who. do.

Robert Pate
July 2nd, 2017, 05:45 PM
Paul boasted in his obedience and in the obedience of others. He probably had those in falseness like you who said he was boasting about obeying, so he did and shuts you all up.

It. is. not. wrong. to. obey. Jesus. and. you. cannot. shame. people. who. do.


Your real problem is that your claim that you can obey Jesus is not only false, it is also anti-Christ and anti-Gospel.

You are in denial that you need to be justified by the doing and the dying of Jesus, Romans 3:26.

Jesus is the one that makes us right with God, not ourselves.

God's Truth
July 2nd, 2017, 06:11 PM
Your real problem is that your claim that you can obey Jesus is not only false, it is also anti-Christ and anti-Gospel.

You are in denial that you need to be justified by the doing and the dying of Jesus, Romans 3:26.

Jesus is the one that makes us right with God, not ourselves.

Jesus makes right who obey him.

Robert Pate
July 2nd, 2017, 09:25 PM
Jesus makes right who obey him.

Your attempt to be righteous in the flesh will lead to your condemnation.

God's Truth
July 2nd, 2017, 10:32 PM
Your attempt to be righteous in the flesh will lead to your condemnation.

Give the scripture for that, scary gospel preacher.

God's Truth
July 2nd, 2017, 10:41 PM
Can people believe what Robert Pate preaches?

You can't obey and believe, you cannot fear God, you cannot obey Jesus and admit you are a sinner, you cannot repent of your sins, and you cannot forgive others.

How do you ever get that? Why don't you try it?

Bard_the_Bowman
July 2nd, 2017, 11:36 PM
Your real problem is that your claim that you can obey Jesus is not only false, it is also anti-Christ and anti-Gospel.]

Not true, Robert.

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" (2 Thess. 1:8 KJV)

" Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you." (Romans 6:16-17 KJV)

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9 KJV)


You are in denial that you need to be justified by the doing and the dying of Jesus, Romans 3:26.

I don't think God's Truth is in denial of that. Not at all. All Christians know that it is only because of Christ's sacrifice on the cross that any human can be saved.

What God's Truth is doing is accepting that AND accepting the rest of God's word spoken to us in the Scriptures which clearly calls for obedience to Jesus.

Paul's letter to the Romans, for example, is sandwiched between what he calls the "obedience of faith" (Romans 1:5 and Romans 16:26)

Why do you ignore those Scripture verses?


Jesus is the one that makes us right with God, not ourselves.

Amen. AND Jesus, as Lord, expects things of us.

Peace.

God's Truth
July 3rd, 2017, 10:31 AM
Not true, Robert.

"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" (2 Thess. 1:8 KJV)

" Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you." (Romans 6:16-17 KJV)

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9 KJV)



I don't think God's Truth is in denial of that. Not at all. All Christians know that it is only because of Christ's sacrifice on the cross that any human can be saved.

What God's Truth is doing is accepting that AND accepting the rest of God's word spoken to us in the Scriptures which clearly calls for obedience to Jesus.

Paul's letter to the Romans, for example, is sandwiched between what he calls the "obedience of faith" (Romans 1:5 and Romans 16:26)

Why do you ignore those Scripture verses?



Amen. AND Jesus, as Lord, expects things of us.

Peace.

Amen.

Robert Pate
July 3rd, 2017, 11:14 AM
The only condition for salvation is faith in Christ and his Gospel, Galatians 3:2.

God's Truth
July 3rd, 2017, 12:42 PM
The only condition for salvation is faith in Christ and his Gospel, Galatians 3:2.

These are the works of the law:


The Burnt Offering; The Grain Offering; The Fellowship Offering; The Sin Offering; The Guilt Offering; Dietary Laws; Purification After Childbirth; Cleansing From Infectious Skin Diseases; Cleansing From Mildew; Discharges Causing Uncleanness; The Day of Atonement; Rules for Priests; The Sabbath; Firstfruits; The Passover and Unleavened Bread; Feast of Weeks; Feast of Trumpets; Feast of Tabernacles; Oil and Bread Set Before The LORD; the Sabbath Year; The Year of Jubilee; Circumcision.

Robert Pate
July 3rd, 2017, 12:59 PM
These are the works of the law:


The Burnt Offering; The Grain Offering; The Fellowship Offering; The Sin Offering; The Guilt Offering; Dietary Laws; Purification After Childbirth; Cleansing From Infectious Skin Diseases; Cleansing From Mildew; Discharges Causing Uncleanness; The Day of Atonement; Rules for Priests; The Sabbath; Firstfruits; The Passover and Unleavened Bread; Feast of Weeks; Feast of Trumpets; Feast of Tabernacles; Oil and Bread Set Before The LORD; the Sabbath Year; The Year of Jubilee; Circumcision.


A work of the law is any religious thing that you do. The law is also spiritual, it searches the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12.

Epoisses
July 3rd, 2017, 03:32 PM
That doesn't answer my question.

Can a person obtain salvation without having their sins forgiven?

Peace.

I try not to answer stupid questions because the stupidity often rubs off on me and I become more stupid in the exchange. It's just a vicious circle.

There are no degrees or steps in forgiveness. You either have all your sins cleansed by the blood of Christ or you are still in unbelief and un-repentance.

God's Truth
July 3rd, 2017, 04:36 PM
A work of the law is any religious thing that you do. The law is also spiritual, it searches the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12.

Any religious thing you do? You mean like abstaining from evil?

You are more lost that I thought.

Nanja
July 3rd, 2017, 05:03 PM
Any religious thing you do? You mean like abstaining from evil?

You are more lost that I thought.

Yeah, before a person is Born of the Spirit, any attempt to do any righteousness whatsoever is a work of the flesh that can't please God Rom. 8:7-8!

Bard_the_Bowman
July 3rd, 2017, 05:46 PM
I try not to answer stupid questions because the stupidity often rubs off on me and I become more stupid in the exchange. It's just a vicious circle.

There are no degrees or steps in forgiveness. You either have all your sins cleansed by the blood of Christ or you are still in unbelief and un-repentance.

No need to get testy, man. It is just a question.

But that's ok. Even though you don't want to answer it directly, you answered it indirectly when you said:

"You either have all your sins cleansed by the blood of Christ or you are still in unbelief and un-repentance."

So when you speak of "faith alone" you obviously mean "faith and repentance". (The opposite of unbelief and unrepentance).

That's cool. I agree with you that faith is necessary and that repentance is necessary. So we need to have belief and we need to be forgiven.

Here's another question I would like you to answer please. Hopefully it isn't quite as stupid as my last question:

Is it necessary for Christians to forgive others?

Peace.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 3rd, 2017, 05:50 PM
The only condition for salvation is faith in Christ and his Gospel, Galatians 3:2.

Hey Robert,

Just curious as to what you think about something.

Does a person have to be forgiven of their sins to obtain salvation?

Thanks.

Peace.

Epoisses
July 3rd, 2017, 06:09 PM
No need to get testy, man. It is just a question.

But that's ok. Even though you don't want to answer it directly, you answered it indirectly when you said:

"You either have all your sins cleansed by the blood of Christ or you are still in unbelief and un-repentance."

So when you speak of "faith alone" you obviously mean "faith and repentance". (The opposite of unbelief and unrepentance).

That's cool. I agree with you that faith is necessary and that repentance is necessary. So we need to have belief and we need to be forgiven.

Here's another question I would like you to answer please. Hopefully it isn't quite as stupid as my last question:

Is it necessary for Christians to forgive others?

Peace.

Is it necessary for Protestants to believe in sola fide? Yes, otherwise you are Catholic or Orthodox.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 3rd, 2017, 11:56 PM
Is it necessary for Protestants to believe in sola fide? Yes, otherwise you are Catholic or Orthodox.

Wait, so you are saying that the reason to believe in sola fide is so that one can keep being a Protestant? Umm, ok, I guess.

Although as I mentioned back in post #18, I think, Catholics and Protestants can be in agreement on sola fide depending on what is meant by that. For example, from what you have written, you believe there to be an element of faith AND an element of repentance on the part of the sinner. So your idea of "faith alone" includes faith AND repentance. That is fine if that is what you mean by "faith alone"...but just so you know...that puts you very much in line with Catholic teaching.

Why didn't you answer my question about Christians and if they need to forgive others?

I would be curious to see how you answer that. There is nothing to fear with a straightforward answer.

I suspect we might find out that your idea of "faith alone" is even more in line with Catholic teaching than you think.

You know, Catholics and Protestants hold much in common and that is ok.

Peace.

Epoisses
July 4th, 2017, 06:52 AM
Wait, so you are saying that the reason to believe in sola fide is so that one can keep being a Protestant? Umm, ok, I guess.

Although as I mentioned back in post #18, I think, Catholics and Protestants can be in agreement on sola fide depending on what is meant by that. For example, from what you have written, you believe there to be an element of faith AND an element of repentance on the part of the sinner. So your idea of "faith alone" includes faith AND repentance. That is fine if that is what you mean by "faith alone"...but just so you know...that puts you very much in line with Catholic teaching.

Why didn't you answer my question about Christians and if they need to forgive others?

I would be curious to see how you answer that. There is nothing to fear with a straightforward answer.

I suspect we might find out that your idea of "faith alone" is even more in line with Catholic teaching than you think.

You know, Catholics and Protestants hold much in common and that is ok.

Peace.

Your focus is solely on Christian living and what we 'do' to be acceptable in God's eyes. It is purely an external religion of works and deeds like the scribes and Pharisees had.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 5th, 2017, 12:59 AM
Your focus is solely on Christian living and what we 'do' to be acceptable in God's eyes. It is purely an external religion of works and deeds like the scribes and Pharisees had.

Not true.

My questions stem from your comment that God's love is given to repentant sinners. (post #20, I believe).

You are the one that brought up repentance, not me.

I am merely trying to understand what you mean by "faith alone" when it obviously isn't "alone".

Included with faith/belief is at least an element of repentance, and an element of forgiveness and forgiving.

Even though you won't answer questions directly, it seems "faith alone" so far means:

Faith/belief AND repentance AND forgiving AND....what else I wonder? Probably love, I bet, if we looked at it.

Peace.

Truster
July 5th, 2017, 01:57 AM
The Gospel is Calvinism- there will never be a more complete, fulfilling doctrine than Calvinism. Stop trying :)

Heretic.

The evangelism (gospel) is the power of Elohim unto salvation. Calvinism is not the evangelism. You have highlighted your complete ignorance as to what evangelism means.

Truster
July 5th, 2017, 02:26 AM
Calvinism defined, and continues to define, true Protestant belief; you're all the frauds, trying to be something you're not- have fun with that

You said that Calvinism IS the evangel and that is heresy. Any doctrine of man may well give an accurate definition of the doctrines of grace but that does not make it the evangel.
Pauls Epistle to the Romans is not the evangel and nobody, in their right mind, would say that it is. You go a step further into darkness by declaring the works of a man outside the canon of scripture is the evangel. If you are blind to this truth it is judicial blindness.

Epoisses
July 5th, 2017, 06:55 AM
Not true.

My questions stem from your comment that God's love is given to repentant sinners. (post #20, I believe).

You are the one that brought up repentance, not me.

I am merely trying to understand what you mean by "faith alone" when it obviously isn't "alone".

Included with faith/belief is at least an element of repentance, and an element of forgiveness and forgiving.

Even though you won't answer questions directly, it seems "faith alone" so far means:

Faith/belief AND repentance AND forgiving AND....what else I wonder? Probably love, I bet, if we looked at it.

Peace.

Repentance is a gift so when I said God gives his love to repentant sinners it still falls within the happy and holy place of 'faith alone'.

When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life - Acts.11:18

Repentance is granted or given not ached out by wearing the skin off your knees in faithless prayer that bounces off the ceiling.

Epoisses
July 5th, 2017, 06:59 AM
The Gospel is Calvinism- there will never be a more complete, fulfilling doctrine than Calvinism. Stop trying :)

The Lutheran gospel is the true gospel and the primary difference between Calvinism and Lutheranism is that Lutherans confess that Christ died for the whole world and his blood is the propitiation for all sin. Their gospel is closer to Christ's where faith is all important and the possibility of falling away is very real. You can't honestly look at the wretches on this forum and say believers don't fall away from truth.

Truster
July 5th, 2017, 08:19 AM
The Lutheran gospel is the true gospel and the primary difference between Calvinism and Lutheranism is that Lutherans confess that Christ died for the whole world and his blood is the propitiation for all sin. Their gospel is closer to Christ's where faith is all important and the possibility of falling away is very real. You can't honestly look at the wretches on this forum and say believers don't fall away from truth.

Your posts sicken me.

patrick jane
July 5th, 2017, 08:21 AM
Your posts sicken me.:rotfl:

Truster
July 5th, 2017, 08:32 AM
:rotfl:
You didn't answer the question:

[02-07, 08:07] Truster: What is it I should forgive you for?

[02-07, 06:37] patrick jane: So you forgive me Bluster?


For once in your life be truthful.

God's Truth
July 5th, 2017, 10:39 AM
The Lutheran gospel is the true gospel and the primary difference between Calvinism and Lutheranism is that Lutherans confess that Christ died for the whole world and his blood is the propitiation for all sin. Their gospel is closer to Christ's where faith is all important and the possibility of falling away is very real. You can't honestly look at the wretches on this forum and say believers don't fall away from truth.

Luther and Calvin both taught falseness.

Sherman
July 5th, 2017, 01:09 PM
John Calvin is very rough- he does not play with your ~shenanigans~ :)

You enjoy becoming a smoking pile don't you?
High Cherub III
l
l
l
V
:nuke:

Robert Pate
July 5th, 2017, 01:30 PM
Hey Robert,

Just curious as to what you think about something.

Does a person have to be forgiven of their sins to obtain salvation?

Thanks.

Peace.


Jesus said that he came into the world to save sinners, Matthew 9:13.

This is how it works.

The sinner hears and believes the Gospel, Romans 10:17. At that moment he receives the Holy Spirit and is born again, Galatians 3:2, also 1 Peter 1:23. God now sees the born again sinner as complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. All that Jesus is and all that Jesus has done is now his. In Jesus Christ he has been justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30.

Robert Pate
July 5th, 2017, 01:33 PM
Luther and Calvin both taught falseness.

This is why you are lost. You don't know, nor do you want to know what the Gospel is.

God's Truth
July 5th, 2017, 01:34 PM
This is why you are lost. You don't know, nor do you want to know what the Gospel is.

All you have are worthless opinions.

Robert Pate
July 5th, 2017, 01:38 PM
All you have are worthless opinions.

I have the word of God, which is the Gospel. According to the Gospel you are not saved.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 5th, 2017, 03:07 PM
Repentance is a gift so when I said God gives his love to repentant sinners it still falls within the happy and holy place of 'faith alone'.


Wait. So when I ask about repentance and forgiveness you accuse me of focusing solely on Christian living and liken it to the scribes and Pharisees:


Your focus is solely on Christian living and what we 'do' to be acceptable in God's eyes. It is purely an external religion of works and deeds like the scribes and Pharisees had.

But when it is noted that you are the one who brought up repentance in the first place it is no longer that but it is simply talking about the "happy and holy place of faith alone"?

Seems like a bit of a double-standard right there.

At any rate, belief AND repentance AND love AND forgiving/forgiveness now all fall into the idea of "faith alone".

Ok. I have no problem with that.

That is exactly what I was talking about in my very first post to you on this topic (#18) where I said that depending on what is meant by "faith alone", Catholics and Protestants can agree.

What you mean by "faith alone" encompasses a lot. And it agrees quite well with Catholic teaching. There are other elements at play other than just belief/faith.


When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life - Acts.11:18

Repentance is granted or given not ached out by wearing the skin off your knees in faithless prayer that bounces off the ceiling.

I agree that it is through God's grace that someone can repent. But it is still an act of the sinner's will. A person can choose to repent or choose to not repent. God doesn't force anyone either way.

I don't know where you got that idea for repentance....but you wouldn't object to someone wearing the skin off of their knees in faithful prayer to God, would you?

Peace.

God's Truth
July 5th, 2017, 04:02 PM
I have the word of God, which is the Gospel. According to the Gospel you are not saved.

You didn't even know that Jesus' blood washes the repentant.

LOLLOLLOL but you want to be a teacher and judge who says I am not saved according to the gospel. LOL!

Epoisses
July 5th, 2017, 06:43 PM
Your posts sicken me.

Speaking of wretches who have fallen away from the truth or should I say you never had truth in the first place!

Epoisses
July 5th, 2017, 06:47 PM
I agree that it is through God's grace that someone can repent. But it is still an act of the sinner's will. A person can choose to repent or choose to not repent. God doesn't force anyone either way.

I don't know where you got that idea for repentance....but you wouldn't object to someone wearing the skin off of their knees in faithful prayer to God, would you?

Peace.

There it is the all powerful free-will of man aka the Arminian battle cry. Under the new covenant God chooses and you are stuck with the results.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 5th, 2017, 10:48 PM
Jesus said that he came into the world to save sinners, Matthew 9:13.

This is how it works.

The sinner hears and believes the Gospel, Romans 10:17. At that moment he receives the Holy Spirit and is born again, Galatians 3:2, also 1 Peter 1:23. God now sees the born again sinner as complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. All that Jesus is and all that Jesus has done is now his. In Jesus Christ he has been justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30.

Hey Robert.

The reason I asked you if a person has to be forgiven of their sins to obtain salvation is because you posted earlier:


The only condition for salvation is faith in Christ and his Gospel, Galatians 3:2.

I am just wondering, in your summary above of "faith in Christ and His Gospel", is there an implication in there of the sinner repenting of their sins and forgiving others as well?

I guess to put it more clearly, I am wondering if you believe that the sinner needs to repent, be forgiven and forgive others? Is that a part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that is sortof implied in what you wrote above?

Thanks.

Peace.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 5th, 2017, 11:07 PM
There it is the all powerful free-will of man aka the Arminian battle cry. Under the new covenant God chooses and you are stuck with the results.

Hmmm. Well, it is my understanding that even in the strictest Calvinist predestination way of thinking....that man's free will is left intact and that nobody is "stuck with the results".

If God chooses someone and they are stuck with the results....is "faith alone" (from our earlier conversation) even necessary?

Just curious.

Peace.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 5th, 2017, 11:17 PM
I have the word of God, which is the Gospel. According to the Gospel you are not saved.

So, I am a little confused. I have a couple of questions for you Robert:

You said:


Jesus said that he came into the world to save sinners, Matthew 9:13.

This is how it works.

The sinner hears and believes the Gospel, Romans 10:17. At that moment he receives the Holy Spirit and is born again, Galatians 3:2, also 1 Peter 1:23. God now sees the born again sinner as complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10. All that Jesus is and all that Jesus has done is now his. In Jesus Christ he has been justified, sanctified and redeemed, 1 Corinthians 1:30.

And now you say that according to that Gospel, God's Truth is not saved.

1. How do you know God's Truth hasn't heard and believed the Gospel?
2. How do you know God's Truth hasn't received the Holy Spirit and been born again?
3. How do you know God doesn't see God's Truth as complete in Christ?
4. How do you know that all that Jesus is and all that Jesus has done is not God's Truth's?
5. How do you know that God's Truth has not been justified, sanctified, and redeemed?

It looks to me like only God can know those things for certain.

You can't.

So how can you claim that God's Truth isn't saved?

Peace.

Epoisses
July 6th, 2017, 06:37 AM
Hmmm. Well, it is my understanding that even in the strictest Calvinist predestination way of thinking....that man's free will is left intact and that nobody is "stuck with the results".

If God chooses someone and they are stuck with the results....is "faith alone" (from our earlier conversation) even necessary?

Just curious.

Peace.

In Christianity the person you are born into this world as, has to die and then you are reborn a new creation in Christ. Until this happens all you works, efforts, choices and decisions are worthless dung in the eyes of God. Every so-called Christian needs to ask themselves one question - have I been truly converted or born-again in Christ? This is the difference between life and death, saved and lost, heaven and hell.

God's Truth
July 6th, 2017, 07:27 AM
So, I am a little confused. I have a couple of questions for you Robert:

You said:



And now you say that according to that Gospel, God's Truth is not saved.

1. How do you know God's Truth hasn't heard and believed the Gospel?
2. How do you know God's Truth hasn't received the Holy Spirit and been born again?
3. How do you know God doesn't see God's Truth as complete in Christ?
4. How do you know that all that Jesus is and all that Jesus has done is not God's Truth's?
5. How do you know that God's Truth has not been justified, sanctified, and redeemed?

It looks to me like only God can know those things for certain.

You can't.

So how can you claim that God's Truth isn't saved?

Peace.

Most enjoyable to read this, on so many levels.

God's Truth
July 6th, 2017, 07:28 AM
In Christianity the person you are born into this world as, has to die and then you are reborn a new creation in Christ. Until this happens all you works, efforts, choices and decisions are worthless dung in the eyes of God. Every so-called Christian needs to ask themselves one question - have I been truly converted or born-again in Christ? This is the difference between life and death, saved and lost, heaven and hell.

If you have to ask yourself, then you probably are not.

Dung? Never is it dung to obey God.

You have an understanding problem.

Epoisses
July 6th, 2017, 08:26 AM
If you have to ask yourself, then you probably are not.

Dung? Never is it dung to obey God.

You have an understanding problem.

You obey your carnal mind, not God.

jsanford108
July 6th, 2017, 09:32 AM
In Christianity the person you are born into this world as, has to die and then you are reborn a new creation in Christ. Until this happens all you works, efforts, choices and decisions are worthless dung in the eyes of God. Every so-called Christian needs to ask themselves one question - have I been truly converted or born-again in Christ? This is the difference between life and death, saved and lost, heaven and hell.

Not to intrude, but your point lacks logic and is contradictory to itself.

"All your works, efforts, choices and decisions are worthless dung in the eyes of God." Yet, "have I been truly converted or born again-in Christ" is a choice/decision. By your former claim, then such a decision is worthless on an eternal scale ("scale" not being a balancing scale).

So either works, choices, decisions, etc. do matter or they don't. Such dichotomy present in your statement is paradoxical.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Robert Pate
July 6th, 2017, 12:11 PM
Not to intrude, but your point lacks logic and is contradictory to itself.

"All your works, efforts, choices and decisions are worthless dung in the eyes of God." Yet, "have I been truly converted or born again-in Christ" is a choice/decision. By your former claim, then such a decision is worthless on an eternal scale ("scale" not being a balancing scale).

So either works, choices, decisions, etc. do matter or they don't. Such dichotomy present in your statement is paradoxical.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)


You would not understand what it means to be born again by the word of God, 1 Peter 1:23, because you have never been there.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 6th, 2017, 11:21 PM
You would not understand what it means to be born again by the word of God, 1 Peter 1:23, because you have never been there.

Oh goodness gracious, Robert. Not again.

How do you know jsanford108 hasn't been "born again"?

Is it just if somebody doesn't agree with you about everything that you believe? Is that it?

C'mon.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 6th, 2017, 11:30 PM
In Christianity the person you are born into this world as, has to die and then you are reborn a new creation in Christ.

Amen! :thumb:


Until this happens all you works, efforts, choices and decisions are worthless dung in the eyes of God.

Not sure I agree with that but I do have a question:

If this is true from your earlier post:


... Under the new covenant God chooses and you are stuck with the results.


Then why would anyone need to the following?:


Every so-called Christian needs to ask themselves one question - have I been truly converted or born-again in Christ? This is the difference between life and death, saved and lost, heaven and hell.

Peace.

genuineoriginal
July 7th, 2017, 12:17 PM
You would not understand what it means to be born again by the word of God, 1 Peter 1:23, because you have never been there.


Romans 14:10
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Robert Pate
July 7th, 2017, 02:24 PM
Romans 14:10
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

John encourages us to try the Spirits to see if they are of God, 1 John 4:1.

God's Truth
July 9th, 2017, 10:38 PM
John encourages us to try the Spirits to see if they are of God, 1 John 4:1.

And you fail when you speak against obeying Jesus.

Robert Pate
July 10th, 2017, 08:39 AM
And you fail when you speak against obeying Jesus.

You cannot hear God's word, so you remain in darkness.

Robert Pate
July 10th, 2017, 08:41 AM
Romans 14:10
10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

I don't consider Gt to be a sister in Christ.

JudgeRightly
July 10th, 2017, 12:29 PM
:chuckle:


I knew that I think. We have the righteousness of Christ Romans 5:1 KJV -

But we do still sin, don't we?

We still sin, yes, but we are not "sinners." before we were saved, sinner described who we are. After we were saved, we are no longer sinners, but saints. Our nature is no longer that of sinner, but that of saint. We still sin, but that's not who we are.

JudgeRightly
July 10th, 2017, 12:31 PM
Please, if you will, provide a verse where the phrase "faith alone" appears in the Scriptures.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)
Ephesians 2:8-9

JudgeRightly
July 10th, 2017, 12:34 PM
Let me ask you a quick question.

Can a person obtain salvation without having their sins forgiven?

Peace.

Yes.

JudgeRightly
July 10th, 2017, 12:35 PM
And faith without works is dead (James 2).


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)
Who was James writing to, J?

Tambora
July 10th, 2017, 12:37 PM
Who was James writing to, J?Maybe he skipped past .....

James 1:1 KJV
(1) James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

JudgeRightly
July 10th, 2017, 12:40 PM
Now name calling? How Christian.

Christ called people names when appropriate.


Your statement of "Christians are justified by faith alone in Christ alone," absent of Scriptural evidence, and contrary to what is found in Scripture demonstrates a knowledge that your doctrine is wanting.

"Curse God and die" and "he went and hanged himself" and "go and do likewise" are in the Bible, but that doesn't mean we should.

The phrase "by faith alone" may not be in the Bible, but that doesn't mean that the concept is not there.

JudgeRightly
July 10th, 2017, 12:43 PM
That doesn't answer my question.

Can a person obtain salvation without having their sins forgiven?

Peace.
Yes

Eagles Wings
July 10th, 2017, 01:02 PM
Now name calling? How Christian.

What?

You don't like being called a buffoon, fool, idiot, heretic, reprobate, unsaved, lying leprechaun?

Me neither, which is why I don't post much regarding doctrine anymore.

Robert Pate
July 10th, 2017, 01:06 PM
We still sin, yes, but we are not "sinners." before we were saved, sinner described who we are. After we were saved, we are no longer sinners, but saints. Our nature is no longer that of sinner, but that of saint. We still sin, but that's not who we are.

Why did Paul refer to himself as the "Chief of Sinners?" 1 Timothy 1:15.

Ask Mr. Religion
July 10th, 2017, 01:21 PM
Christ called people names when appropriate.


Indeed, God the Son. Or even an apostle was not shy to take another to task. Fortunately no one here ranks similarly and should avail themselves of the teachings behind the ninth commandment:


From the WLC (http://www.reformed.org/documents/wlc_w_proofs/index.html)...

Q143: Which is the ninth commandment?
A143: The ninth commandment is, Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.[1]
1. Exod. 20:16

Q. 144. What does the ninth commandment require?

A. The ninth commandment requires that we maintain and promote truthfulness in our dealings with each other1 and the good reputation of others as well as ourselves.2 We must come forward and stand up for the truth,3 speaking the truth and nothing but the truth from our hearts,4 sincerely,5 freely,6 clearly,7 and without equivocation,8 not only in all matters relating to the law and justice9 but in any and every circumstance whatsoever.10 We must have a charitable regard for others,11 loving, desiring, and rejoicing in their good reputation12 as well as regretting13 and putting the best light on their failings.14 We must freely acknowledge their talents and gifts,15 defending their innocence,16 readily receiving a good report about them17 and reluctantly admitting a bad one.18 We should discourage gossips,19 flatterers,20 and slanderers;21 we should love and protect our own good reputation and defend it when necessary;22 we should keep every lawful promise we make no matter what;23 and finally we should do the best we can to focus our lives and thoughts on things that are true, noble, lovely, and admirable.24


1. Zech 8.16, Eph4.25.
2. 3 Jn 12.
3. Prv 31.8-9.
4. Ps 15.2.
5. 2 Chr 19.9.
6. 1 Sm 19.4-5, Jer 9.3
7. Jos 7.19, Jer 42.4, Acts 20.20.
8. 2 Sm 14.18-20, Acts 20.27.
9. Lv 19.15, Prv 14.5,25.
10. 2 Cor 1.17-18, Eph4.25, Is 63.8, Col 3.9.
11. Heb 6.9, 1 Cor 13.4-5,7.
12. Rom 1.8, 2 Jn 4, 3 Jn 3-4.
13. 2 Cor 2.4,12.21, Ps 119.158.
14. Prv 17.9, 1 Pt 4.8.
15. 1 Cor 1.4-5,7,2 Tm 1.4-5.
16. 1 Sm 22.14, Ps 82.3.
17. 1 Cor 13.4,6-7.
18. Ps 15.3.
19. Prv 25.23.
20. Prv 26.24-25.
21. Ps 101.5.
22. Prv 22.1, Jn 8.49,2 Cor 11.18,23.
23. Ps 15.4.
24. Phil 4.8.


Q. 145. What particular sins does the ninth commandment forbid?

A. The ninth commandment forbids everything detrimental to the truth and the good reputation of others as well as our own,1 with special reference to legal matters in the courts.2 We must not give untrue evidence,3 suborn perjury,4 knowingly appear and plead on behalf of an evil cause, or engage in overbearing and boastful exaggeration.5 We should never participate in passing an unjust sentence,6 call evil good or good evil, or reward the wicked in a way appropriate to the righteous or the righteous in a way appropriate to the wicked.7 Forgery is forbidden,8 as is concealing the truth, remaining silent in a just cause,9 and not taking it on ourselves to reprove10 or complain to others about some wrong.11 We must not speak the truth at an inappropriate time,12 or maliciously to promote a wrong purpose,13 nor pervert it into a wrong meaning,14 into ambiguous equivocations, or in such ways as to undermine truth and justice.15 Also forbidden are: saying anything untrue,16 as well as lying,17 slandering,18 backbiting,19 belittling,20 gossiping,21 whispering,22 ridiculing,23 reviling,24 and expressing any kind of judgmental opinion that is rash,25 harsh,26 or prejudiced;27 misconstruing intentions, words, and actions;28 flattery29 and ostentatious boasting;30 thinking or speaking too highly or too poorly of ourselves or others;31 denying the gifts of God or the effects of his grace on us;32 exaggerating the significance of trivial faults;33 concealing, excusing, or rationalizing our sinful behavior when we are called to confess it voluntarily;34 gratuitously revealing the problems and failings of others;35 spreading false rumors,36 receiving and approving evil reports,37 and refusing to listen to a just defense;38 harboring evil suspicions;39 being envious of or grieved by the deserved honors others receive,40 trying to discredit those honors,41 and rejoicing at someone else’s disgrace or evil reputation;42 scornful contempt43 and foolish admiration;44 breaking our lawful promises;45 and, finally, failing to promote everyone’s good name,46 and doing, not avoiding, or not hindering in others, as we can, those things that give people a bad name.47


1. 1 Sm 17.28,2 Sm 16.3,1.9,10,15-16, Lk 3.14.
2. Lv 19.15, Hb 1.4.
3. Prv 19.5,6.16,19.
4. Acts 6.13.
5. Jer 9.3,5, Acts 24.2,5, Ps 12.3-4, 52.1^1.
6. Prv 17.15,1 Kgs 21.9-14.
7. Is 5.23.
8. Ps 119.69, Lk 19.8,16.5-7,1 Kgs 21.8.
9. Lv 5.1, Deut. 13.8, Acts 5.3,8-9,2 Tm 4.6.
10. 1 Kgs 1.6, Lv 19.17, Is 58.1.
11. Is 59.4.
12. Prv 29.11.
13. 1 Sm 22.9-10, Ps 52.1-5.
14. Ps 56.5, Jn 2.19, Mt 26.60-61.
15. Gn 3.5,26.7,9.
16. Is 59.13.
17. Lv 19.11, Col 3.9.
18. Ps 50.20.
19. Ps 15.3, Rom 1.30.
20. Jas 4.1 l,Jer 38.4, Ti 3.2.
21. Lv 19.16.
22. Rom 1.29-30, Prv 16.28.
23. Gn 21.9, Gal 4.29, Is 28.22.
24. 1 Cor 6.10.
25. Mt7.1.
26. Acts 28.4, Jas 2.13.
27. Gn 38.24, Rom 2.1, Jn 7.24.
28. Neh 6.6-8, Rom 3.8, Ps 69.10,1 Sm 1.13-15, 2 Sm 10.3.
29. Ps 12.2-3.
30. 2 Tm 3.2.
31. Lk 18.9,11, Rom 12.16,1 Cor 4.6, Acts 12.22, Ex 4.10-14.
32. Jb 27.5-6,4.6, Gal 5.26.
33. Mt 7.3-5, Is 29.20-21.
34. Prv 28.13, 30.20, Gn 3.12-13,4.9, Jer2.35,2 Kgs 5.25.
35. Gn 9.22, Prv 25.9-10.
36. Ex 23.1.
37. Prv 29.12, Jer 20.10.
38. Acts 7.56-57, Jb 31.13-14.
39. 1 Cor 13.4-5,1 Tm 6.4.
40. Nm 11.29, Mt21.15.
41. Ezr 4.12-13, Dn 6.3^1.
42. Jer 48.27.
43. Ps 35.15-16,21, Mt27.28-29.
44. Jude 16, Acts 12.22,1 Cor 3.21.
45. Rom 1.31,2 Tm 3.3.
46. 1 Sm2.24,2Sml2.14.
47. 2 Sm 12.13-14, Prv 5.8-9, Phil 3.18-19,2 Pt 2.2.

AMR

Bard_the_Bowman
July 10th, 2017, 03:27 PM
Ephesians 2:8-9

The word "alone" is not there.

Yes, we are saved by faith and that is what the passage is saying.

But it does not say by "faith alone".

Peace.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 10th, 2017, 03:31 PM
Yes

Thank you for the straight answer. I do appreciate that.

Could you explain a little bit please?

Thanks.

JudgeRightly
July 10th, 2017, 03:31 PM
The word "alone" is not there.

Yes, we are saved by faith and that is what the passage is saying.

But it does not say by "faith alone".

Peace.
Faith or works, is there any other way to be saved? If it's not of works, then it must be of faith. If not of faith, then works.

The word "alone" doesn't have to be there, because Paul expects us to have at least some knowledge of the context of what he's saying.

Ask Mr. Religion
July 10th, 2017, 03:40 PM
The alternative to faith alone, and clear evidence of what results when rejecting Sola Fide: http://tinyurl.com/75glvdj

Q.E.D.

:AMR:

AMR

JudgeRightly
July 10th, 2017, 03:46 PM
Thank you for the straight answer. I do appreciate that.

Could you explain a little bit please?

Thanks.
Paul explains in Romans 2 (though not explicitly) that there are those that are "unsolicited," ie, those who have never heard of the gospel message, be that of the law, or of Christ's resurrection, or of saving grace, or even the Bible, who can come to know their Creator and receive eternal life after acknowledging He exists and that he wants to love Him, and understands to follow the law written in his heart.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 10th, 2017, 03:49 PM
Faith or works, is there any other way to be saved? If it's not of works, then it must be of faith. If not of faith, then works.


I disagree. You have set up a false dichotomy that the Bible never does. You are basically saying "it has be this or that". The Bible never says that.

The Bible shows us that faith and works are complementary. They go together. One without the other is dead.


The word "alone" doesn't have to be there, because Paul expects us to have at least some knowledge of the context of what he's saying.

I agree.

And if we continue the context from Ephesians 2:8-9 and include verse 10 we get:

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

So faith and works go together.

And I think when we look at Galatians 5:6 or 1 Corinthians 13 we can see that for Paul, what matters, is faith working through love. The same is true for the book of James.

So if "faith alone" includes things like love, repentance, forgiveness/forgiving, and belief...then yeah, I agree with you that we are saved by "faith alone".

Peace.

Ask Mr. Religion
July 10th, 2017, 03:58 PM
The Bible shows us that faith and works are complementary. They go together. One without the other is dead.


Justification is the issue at hand. It is a one-time, judicial warrant by God, a forensic declaration based upon the object of that faith: Our Lord. Yes, faith without works is a dead faith, evidence of professing what one does not possess. No one becomes justified by their own works. Our justification is an alien righteousness, that of another, Our Lord Jesus Christ. Unlike Rome, we are not initially justified and then must continue to be so, as if that justification by God can be withdrawn unless we mount Rome's treadmill (http://tinyurl.com/75glvdj) of works.

AMR

Bard_the_Bowman
July 10th, 2017, 04:04 PM
Paul explains in Romans 2 (though not explicitly) that there are those that are "unsolicited," ie, those who have never heard of the gospel message, be that of the law, or of Christ's resurrection, or of saving grace, or even the Bible, who can come to know their Creator and receive eternal life after acknowledging He exists and that he wants to love Him, and understands to follow the law written in his heart.

Ok. Thanks for that. I can see what you are saying.

Although, the passages do seem to indicate that those who do not have explicit of the knowledge of God etc. still do by nature what the law contains (verses 14-15)so I'd have to look into that a little more.

What about for people who have heard the Gospel message? Can they be saved without having their sins forgiven?

Thanks.

Peace.

Bard_the_Bowman
July 10th, 2017, 04:21 PM
Justification is the issue at hand. It is a one-time, judicial warrant by God, a forensic declaration based upon the object of that faith: Our Lord.

I disagree. It is a declaration but it is more than that. It is a process.

It was in the life of Abraham and it is in ours.

Abraham was justified when he obeyed God and left his homeland (Genesis 12),
Abraham was justified when he believed God years later (Genesis 15),
Abraham was justified when he obeyed God again years after that when he was willing to offer Isaac (Genesis 22)


Yes, faith without works is a dead faith, evidence of professing what one does not possess. No one becomes justified by their own works.

Nobody that I know of has ever claimed to be justified by works alone.


Our justification is an alien righteousness, that of another, Our Lord Jesus Christ. Unlike Rome, we are not initially justified and then must continue to be so, as if that justification by God can be withdrawn unless we mount Rome's treadmill (http://tinyurl.com/75glvdj) of works.

Mortal sin is biblical and there are plenty of passages in the Bible that warn against being cut off from Christ.

Peace.

Zeke
July 10th, 2017, 04:29 PM
Indeed, God the Son. Or even an apostle was not shy to take another to task. Fortunately no one here ranks similarly and should avail themselves of the teachings behind the ninth commandment:


From the WLC (http://www.reformed.org/documents/wlc_w_proofs/index.html)...

Q143: Which is the ninth commandment?
A143: The ninth commandment is, Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.[1]
1. Exod. 20:16

Q. 144. What does the ninth commandment require?

A. The ninth commandment requires that we maintain and promote truthfulness in our dealings with each other1 and the good reputation of others as well as ourselves.2 We must come forward and stand up for the truth,3 speaking the truth and nothing but the truth from our hearts,4 sincerely,5 freely,6 clearly,7 and without equivocation,8 not only in all matters relating to the law and justice9 but in any and every circumstance whatsoever.10 We must have a charitable regard for others,11 loving, desiring, and rejoicing in their good reputation12 as well as regretting13 and putting the best light on their failings.14 We must freely acknowledge their talents and gifts,15 defending their innocence,16 readily receiving a good report about them17 and reluctantly admitting a bad one.18 We should discourage gossips,19 flatterers,20 and slanderers;21 we should love and protect our own good reputation and defend it when necessary;22 we should keep every lawful promise we make no matter what;23 and finally we should do the best we can to focus our lives and thoughts on things that are true, noble, lovely, and admirable.24


1. Zech 8.16, Eph4.25.
2. 3 Jn 12.
3. Prv 31.8-9.
4. Ps 15.2.
5. 2 Chr 19.9.
6. 1 Sm 19.4-5, Jer 9.3
7. Jos 7.19, Jer 42.4, Acts 20.20.
8. 2 Sm 14.18-20, Acts 20.27.
9. Lv 19.15, Prv 14.5,25.
10. 2 Cor 1.17-18, Eph4.25, Is 63.8, Col 3.9.
11. Heb 6.9, 1 Cor 13.4-5,7.
12. Rom 1.8, 2 Jn 4, 3 Jn 3-4.
13. 2 Cor 2.4,12.21, Ps 119.158.
14. Prv 17.9, 1 Pt 4.8.
15. 1 Cor 1.4-5,7,2 Tm 1.4-5.
16. 1 Sm 22.14, Ps 82.3.
17. 1 Cor 13.4,6-7.
18. Ps 15.3.
19. Prv 25.23.
20. Prv 26.24-25.
21. Ps 101.5.
22. Prv 22.1, Jn 8.49,2 Cor 11.18,23.
23. Ps 15.4.
24. Phil 4.8.


Q. 145. What particular sins does the ninth commandment forbid?

A. The ninth commandment forbids everything detrimental to the truth and the good reputation of others as well as our own,1 with special reference to legal matters in the courts.2 We must not give untrue evidence,3 suborn perjury,4 knowingly appear and plead on behalf of an evil cause, or engage in overbearing and boastful exaggeration.5 We should never participate in passing an unjust sentence,6 call evil good or good evil, or reward the wicked in a way appropriate to the righteous or the righteous in a way appropriate to the wicked.7 Forgery is forbidden,8 as is concealing the truth, remaining silent in a just cause,9 and not taking it on ourselves to reprove10 or complain to others about some wrong.11 We must not speak the truth at an inappropriate time,12 or maliciously to promote a wrong purpose,13 nor pervert it into a wrong meaning,14 into ambiguous equivocations, or in such ways as to undermine truth and justice.15 Also forbidden are: saying anything untrue,16 as well as lying,17 slandering,18 backbiting,19 belittling,20 gossiping,21 whispering,22 ridiculing,23 reviling,24 and expressing any kind of judgmental opinion that is rash,25 harsh,26 or prejudiced;27 misconstruing intentions, words, and actions;28 flattery29 and ostentatious boasting;30 thinking or speaking too highly or too poorly of ourselves or others;31 denying the gifts of God or the effects of his grace on us;32 exaggerating the significance of trivial faults;33 concealing, excusing, or rationalizing our sinful behavior when we are called to confess it voluntarily;34 gratuitously revealing the problems and failings of others;35 spreading false rumors,36 receiving and approving evil reports,37 and refusing to listen to a just defense;38 harboring evil suspicions;39 being envious of or grieved by the deserved honors others receive,40 trying to discredit those honors,41 and rejoicing at someone else’s disgrace or evil reputation;42 scornful contempt43 and foolish admiration;44 breaking our lawful promises;45 and, finally, failing to promote everyone’s good name,46 and doing, not avoiding, or not hindering in others, as we can, those things that give people a bad name.47


1. 1 Sm 17.28,2 Sm 16.3,1.9,10,15-16, Lk 3.14.
2. Lv 19.15, Hb 1.4.
3. Prv 19.5,6.16,19.
4. Acts 6.13.
5. Jer 9.3,5, Acts 24.2,5, Ps 12.3-4, 52.1^1.
6. Prv 17.15,1 Kgs 21.9-14.
7. Is 5.23.
8. Ps 119.69, Lk 19.8,16.5-7,1 Kgs 21.8.
9. Lv 5.1, Deut. 13.8, Acts 5.3,8-9,2 Tm 4.6.
10. 1 Kgs 1.6, Lv 19.17, Is 58.1.
11. Is 59.4.
12. Prv 29.11.
13. 1 Sm 22.9-10, Ps 52.1-5.
14. Ps 56.5, Jn 2.19, Mt 26.60-61.
15. Gn 3.5,26.7,9.
16. Is 59.13.
17. Lv 19.11, Col 3.9.
18. Ps 50.20.
19. Ps 15.3, Rom 1.30.
20. Jas 4.1 l,Jer 38.4, Ti 3.2.
21. Lv 19.16.
22. Rom 1.29-30, Prv 16.28.
23. Gn 21.9, Gal 4.29, Is 28.22.
24. 1 Cor 6.10.
25. Mt7.1.
26. Acts 28.4, Jas 2.13.
27. Gn 38.24, Rom 2.1, Jn 7.24.
28. Neh 6.6-8, Rom 3.8, Ps 69.10,1 Sm 1.13-15, 2 Sm 10.3.
29. Ps 12.2-3.
30. 2 Tm 3.2.
31. Lk 18.9,11, Rom 12.16,1 Cor 4.6, Acts 12.22, Ex 4.10-14.
32. Jb 27.5-6,4.6, Gal 5.26.
33. Mt 7.3-5, Is 29.20-21.
34. Prv 28.13, 30.20, Gn 3.12-13,4.9, Jer2.35,2 Kgs 5.25.
35. Gn 9.22, Prv 25.9-10.
36. Ex 23.1.
37. Prv 29.12, Jer 20.10.
38. Acts 7.56-57, Jb 31.13-14.
39. 1 Cor 13.4-5,1 Tm 6.4.
40. Nm 11.29, Mt21.15.
41. Ezr 4.12-13, Dn 6.3^1.
42. Jer 48.27.
43. Ps 35.15-16,21, Mt27.28-29.
44. Jude 16, Acts 12.22,1 Cor 3.21.
45. Rom 1.31,2 Tm 3.3.
46. 1 Sm2.24,2Sml2.14.
47. 2 Sm 12.13-14, Prv 5.8-9, Phil 3.18-19,2 Pt 2.2.

AMR

That's the kind of worldly dogma that looks into the future for an existing now, either Christ is in you or isn't, which equalizes the body instead of being base ego drivin with its fruit of man worship.

Robert Pate
July 10th, 2017, 06:54 PM
We are justified by faith alone because we are justified by Christ alone, Jesus Christ is our justifier. All that faith does is it makes the Gospel ours. There is no saving merit in faith. It was Jesus that fulfilled the law. It was Jesus that atoned for our sins. Jesus acting in our name and on our behalf is our justification, Romans 3:26.

God's Truth
July 10th, 2017, 07:12 PM
We are justified by faith alone because we are justified by Christ alone, Jesus Christ is our justifier. All that faith does is it makes the Gospel ours. There is no saving merit in faith. It was Jesus that fulfilled the law. It was Jesus that atoned for our sins. Jesus acting in our name and on our behalf is our justification, Romans 3:26.

Justified by faith alone means we have faith that Jesus' blood cleans us of the sins we repent of doing.

Jesus does the cleaning, we no longer have to. We no longer have to get circumcised and sacrifice animals, etc. We no longer have to do that to make ourselves clean or be separated and without Him.

God's Truth
July 10th, 2017, 07:14 PM
Justification is the issue at hand. It is a one-time, judicial warrant by God, a forensic declaration based upon the object of that faith: Our Lord. Yes, faith without works is a dead faith, evidence of professing what one does not possess. No one becomes justified by their own works. Our justification is an alien righteousness, that of another, Our Lord Jesus Christ. Unlike Rome, we are not initially justified and then must continue to be so, as if that justification by God can be withdrawn unless we mount Rome's treadmill (http://tinyurl.com/75glvdj) of works.

AMR

The Jews used to have to do the WORKS OF THE LAW.

The Jews had to do the works of the law to atone for their sins by using the blood of animals and doing other things called purification/ceremonial works.

Those are the works that no longer matter.

Paul was not saying we no longer have to obey God; Paul was explaining we don't have to get circumcised anymore and sacrifice animals.

Robert Pate
July 11th, 2017, 07:10 AM
The Jews used to have to do the WORKS OF THE LAW.

The Jews had to do the works of the law to atone for their sins by using the blood of animals and doing other things called purification/ceremonial works.

Those are the works that no longer matter.

Paul was not saying we no longer have to obey God; Paul was explaining we don't have to get circumcised anymore and sacrifice animals.


What is the law? The law is anything in the Bible that tells you to do something or not to do something. The law is also spiritual it searches the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12. You like to water down the law and make it less than what it is. The law is also the nature and character of God. To be under the law is to be condemned by the law. Do you not hear the law? Galatians 4:21.

genuineoriginal
July 11th, 2017, 02:11 PM
I don't consider Gt to be a sister in Christ.

It doesn't matter at all whether you consider jsanford108 to be a brother in Christ, since he is the one you judged to have never born of Christ.
It matters whether God considers jsanford108 to be in Christ.

You are very judgmental towards Christians like God's Truth and jsanford108 because they do not hold your heretical beliefs.

genuineoriginal
July 11th, 2017, 02:17 PM
We still sin, yes, but we are not "sinners." before we were saved, sinner described who we are. After we were saved, we are no longer sinners, but saints. Our nature is no longer that of sinner, but that of saint. We still sin, but that's not who we are.

A murderer is a person that murders.
A sinner is a person that sins.

You say you still sin, so that makes you a sinner by definition.

The Bible speaks about the difference between what the righteous do when they sin and what the unrighteous do:

Proverbs 24:16
16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

No matter how many times a righteous person falls into sin, he will get back up and start living a life of righteousness again.
When the unrighteous falls into sin, he will stay there and revel in it.

genuineoriginal
July 11th, 2017, 02:28 PM
Faith or works, is there any other way to be saved?
Yes.
It is neither your faith nor your works that will save you.

If it's not of works, then it must be of faith. If not of faith, then works.
That is a logical fallacy known as a false dichotomy.


A false dichotomy is a dichotomy that is not jointly exhaustive (there are other alternatives), or that is not mutually exclusive (the alternatives overlap), or that is possibly neither.
http://wiki.c2.com/?FalseDichotomy



The word "alone" doesn't have to be there, because Paul expects us to have at least some knowledge of the context of what he's saying.
Yes, Paul expects us to have some knowledge of the context of what he is saying.

Acts 28:23-24
23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
If you are trying to understand Paul without the context of the Old Testament, then you will always misunderstand what he is saying.

Or, you can look at what Paul said earlier in the letter to the Romans:

Romans 2:7-11
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

genuineoriginal
July 11th, 2017, 02:42 PM
Justification is the issue at hand. It is a one-time, judicial warrant by God, a forensic declaration based upon the object of that faith: Our Lord. Yes, faith without works is a dead faith, evidence of professing what one does not possess. No one becomes justified by their own works. Our justification is an alien righteousness, that of another, Our Lord Jesus Christ. Unlike Rome, we are not initially justified and then must continue to be so, as if that justification by God can be withdrawn unless we mount Rome's treadmill (http://tinyurl.com/75glvdj) of works.

AMR
Justification is not a "one and done" thing that happens before the Resurrection.

Romans 2:13
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Matthew 7:24-27
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

JudgeRightly
July 11th, 2017, 02:50 PM
A murderer is a person that murders.
A sinner is a person that sins.

While on the surface that may seem accurate, it doesn't quite get hit the mark, at least not the way you intended it.

Someone who murders is a murderer. It's who they have become, who they are, it describes them, not their action. You don't call a gun that was used to kill an innocent person a murderer, do you?

In the same way, a "sinner" is not describing the action being done, it's describing the person himself. It's who the person is. (I'll continue my thought below.)


You say you still sin, so that makes you a sinner by definition.

INCORRECT.

Paul says:

What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect?Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: “That You may be justified in Your words, And may overcome when You are judged.” But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world? For if the truth of God has increased through my lie to His glory, why am I also still judged as a sinner? And why not say, “Let us do evil that good may come”?—as we are slanderously reported and as some affirm that we say. Their condemnation is just. - Romans 3:1-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans3:1-8&version=NKJV

Paul makes it very clear that he is no longer called a sinner, even though he sins.


The Bible speaks about the difference between what the righteous do when they sin and what the unrighteous do:


Proverbs 24:16
16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

(Continuing my thought from above...)

In the verse you quoted, the "just man" is a man who is just, not just someone who does just things, and the "wicked" is someone who is wicked, not just someone who does wicked things.

In the same way, a "sinner" is someone who is sinful, the word describes their nature, not their actions, for even a wicked man can do just things, but that doesn't make him just, the same way that a just man can do wicked things, and still be called "just."


No matter how many times a righteous person falls into sin, he will get back up and start living a life of righteousness again.

When the unrighteous falls into sin, he will stay there and revel in it.

I agree, but that doesn't mean that when the righteous man falls, he is called wicked, neither when the wicked man does something upright he is called just.

Do you see what I'm saying?

Robert Pate
July 11th, 2017, 03:27 PM
It doesn't matter at all whether you consider jsanford108 to be a brother in Christ, since he is the one you judged to have never born of Christ.
It matters whether God considers jsanford108 to be in Christ.

You are very judgmental towards Christians like God's Truth and jsanford108 because they do not hold your heretical beliefs.

Neither one of them indicates that they have faith in Christ. No faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ = No salvation. That goes for you to.

God's Truth
July 25th, 2017, 08:38 PM
What is the law? The law is anything in the Bible that tells you to do something or not to do something. The law is also spiritual it searches the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12. You like to water down the law and make it less than what it is. The law is also the nature and character of God. To be under the law is to be condemned by the law. Do you not hear the law? Galatians 4:21.

There is a new law, it is the old law with some changes. See Hebrews 7:12.

Robert Pate
July 25th, 2017, 08:49 PM
There is a new law, it is the old law with some changes. See Hebrews 7:12.


There was a change in the law all right. It was abolished, Ephesians 2:15.

God's Truth
July 25th, 2017, 11:29 PM
There was a change in the law all right. It was abolished, Ephesians 2:15.

There is a new law.

patrick jane
July 25th, 2017, 11:30 PM
There is a new law.Fake News

beloved57
July 25th, 2017, 11:38 PM
Neither one of them indicates that they have faith in Christ. No faith in the Gospel of Jesus Christ = No salvation. That goes for you to.

You teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost ! Thats not the Gospel !

God's Truth
July 25th, 2017, 11:39 PM
Fake News

Romans 3:27 The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.

True believers uphold the law. See Romans 3:31.

The new law is the law of the Spirit; see Romans 8:2, the perfect law James 1:25.

It is the law that gives freedom, see James 2:12.

It is the LAW that requires faith, see Romans 3:27.

It is the law of Christ; see 1 Corinthians 9:21, and Galatians 6:2.

The old law is obsolete as it is, but we have a new law, see Hebrews 8:13.

2 Corinthians 3:3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

Hebrews 8:10 This is the covenant I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

patrick jane
July 25th, 2017, 11:44 PM
You teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost ! Thats not the Gospel !Nope. Robert Pate does not teach that

heir
July 25th, 2017, 11:49 PM
Justified by faith alone means we have faith that Jesus' blood cleans us of the sins we repent of doing.You preach another gospel (Galatians 1:8-9 KJV). Stop that!

God's Truth
July 26th, 2017, 08:55 AM
You preach another gospel (Galatians 1:8-9 KJV). Stop that!

You claim Paul speaks another gospel.

heir
July 26th, 2017, 10:05 AM
You claim Paul speaks another gospel.Paul received a gospel (Galatians 1:11-12 KJV) that was before a mystery (Romans 16:25-26 KJV) and he tells us why (1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV). He declares it in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV and preaches that the formula for being saved and sealed is Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV. It is a salvation by grace through faith/not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV). Anything you add to as a requirement to it besides the obvious requirement to believe (Romans 1:16 KJV, Romans 3:21-22 KJV) is another gospel than that which Paul preached and in so doing let you be accursed (Galatians 1:8-9 KJV).

Sleekbacksmile
July 26th, 2017, 07:32 PM
.

Hello Everyone. Delight to be here.

. I had to break my bad habit of using too many CAPS and all bold. The moderator quickly set me on the right path. Thank You.

I have been reading most all of the posts here. The going back and forth, it is very interesting. I was noticing the subject being directed to the mentioning of the word (“evangelize”)

Greek 2097 / εὐαγγελίζω / euaggelizō / yoo-ang-ghel-id'-zo



Meaning To announce / evangelize”) To declare, bring (declare, show) glad (good) tidings, preach (the gospel). In the Bible this Greek Word is used over 50 times. It is Mainly the word Preach or Preaching. However in Luk 2:10 it is used to say Good Tidings.

10. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

I disagree with the Catholic Point of View. There are no Priests in the Early Church in The Bible. However there are Bishops Bishop's are superintendents and - in general charge of a church overseers. - .and Deacons are Teachers, ministers and servants in the bible. -


The Bible is clear that the Deacon and Bishop MUST be / Needs to be and Ought To Be - The Husband of A Wife.This Greek Word MUST is the Greek 1163 δεῖ / dei / die, or deh-on'

Meaning - MUST - necessary (as binding): - behoved, be meet, must (needs), (be) need (-ful), ought, should. Needs To Be. .............

The Bible Clearly again, again and again Commands that Bishops - Teachers and Servants of the Church MUST be married. Bishops Bust be married.

1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; - 1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

The Evidence Proves that CATHOLISLAMIC Religions are Based on Adultery. Pure Anti Family Religions. Masquerading - As having a Special Admiration, A Special Connection and This Great Devotion to their Hero - Abraham.They Spend their Entire Lives, Wasting their Time. Pretending to Love and Admire Abraham And Jacob. While their Religious TEACHINGS, Their FAITHS are Opposing and Opposite Abraham, Jacob and the Laws of Marriage of The Bible. They in Fact truly dislike them greatly. Yes Many, Many, Many Other Countries have the Same tYpe Milder Problems.

But - Thousands of Catholic and Islamic immigrants Today are Caused by The Loose Living Family LIFESTYLE of Catholics and Muslims. That is not Just a Part of their Society, City, Village, Country or Island. But a Part of Their RELIGION.

They don't have or Raise Very Many People like Me and You, To Pay in The Thousands and Thousands of Dollars in taXes. People Who Who believe the Old and New Testament Religion Suggestions of Family importance, and Not Divorcing Divorce and Fatherless Children is not such a Bad thing to Catholics And Muslims. Based on the Religion SETUP of their SYSTEMS. They are Truly ANTI FAMILY. Every Catholic and Muslim Country is filled with Children who have no Mommy, No Daddy no Family. Living together as a Family of ABRAHAMIC FAITH. While they PRETEND they Love Abraham, Jacob and FAMILY,... It is all FAKE Pretense. Pretending.


The Roman Catholic Role MODEL is a distant Priest, who Hides all of His seXual ( Homosexual Or Heterosexual ) All activities in the DARKNESS. Who has no Family, No Wife, No CHILDREN. Nothing. But Secrets and Lies and Hidden agendas.
The Role Model of the Hebrew Priest was a FAMILY MAN with Wives, Many, Many Children. A FAMILY UNIT. This was what the Children Look to as an PHYSICAL FAMILY eXample. Catholic Children are Taught that these priests are Role Models. yet They Themselves Live Like Distant Stars -

Do You know what a Star Does ? - A Star is Showing its Light From a Long, Long Distance away. You never Really get to see the Light until a long time has passed. So You never Really Get to Know anything about the Lives of People Who act like Stars. Bowing Down before them, Kneeling and Kissing Insane and Ferociously Reverently, Crying, Confessing, Slobbering and Stuttering in a Fever and Shaking in Emotional Convolution Fits to People - Who Are Worshiped.

The Popes, Priests and Nuns Who are Called FATHERS / MOTHERS.... But are not Fathers Nor Mothers. But they Have no Children. No Family. ! They Hide Everything They Do, Like Stars the Catholic People never are Allowed to see the True Face of these Holy, Revered People.

This has Destroyed the Entire Catholic World. Across the Entire Planet. A Complete Total Wave of eternal Poor Youth who are never Taught the King JAMES 1Ti 3:10 A Bishop and Deacon MUST be MARRIED. MUST HAVE CHILDREN / A FAMILY> !

They do not believe Your Bible. They Have no Bible for their Faith. They Are Taught By Our Hero The Pope, that Muslims are Practicing The Abrahamic Religion and Abrahams and Jacobs Old Bible Polygamy and Marriage. Muslims are Following in The Footsteps of Abrahamic and Jacob - Catholics are Taught this By their Masters, Teachers and Priests, Bishops, Popes and Mothers and Fathers. It is all Total False. The Religious Structures of these CATHOLISLAMIC People is destroying the Idea of FAMILY.

Not Just basic Countries , Cities , Towns , and Random Statistics of Villages who fall Below the Poverty Line because they Too - are having a Good time, Having a Late Night Out At the party, or the Club and cant stop. These Type of Situations Such As Here in the Americas Can Easily be Handled By Folks Like Yourself or I.

Who have Saved our Money, Who believe the Bible IDEAOLOGY in Waiting to get married Before having 4 - 9 Children . Or before having any Children. There are Plenty of Americans, Russians, German and NON CATHOLISLAMIC People - Who still Clinging and Holding tight to the Bible IDEA of a Child Who has no Family - is so, so Horrible.

We can handle the Catholics and Muslims and Other - Even the few Percentage of protestant and Atheistic - and ALL - Poverty issues. around the Entire Planet and Even to the Galaxy. We Got it Covered.

CATHOLSLAMIC Societies have Nothing Covered. They are Not Taught To Be Concerned about anything but Finding a Way To Get You and me to Empty Our Pocket and Pay for them to have the next seXual Adventure. That they are Taught to Hide and Cover up. AS A RELIGION. Following their Priests and Bishops and Nuns.

We Can Pay our Family Planned SAVINGS - to Make up the Slack Here in America, To Make Up The Total Perversion of the CATHOLISLAMIC Degrade.

The Facts do not even Support Their religious Claims. Perhaps is a Hidden deep Rooted Distain for the Truth, They Pretend to Love. Simply Pretending Just because of the truly eXistant hidden Distain and Abhorrence.

they Outcast, Ban, Fire and eXcomunicate the Priest or Bishop who Has a family. This is why the Catholic World is Living in Poverty and an eternal circle of refugees and The billions of abandoned Fatherless.

jsanford108
July 26th, 2017, 10:20 PM
.

Hello Everyone. Delight to be here.

. I had to break my bad habit of using too many CAPS and all bold. The moderator quickly set me on the right path. Thank You.

I have been reading most all of the posts here. The going back and forth, it is very interesting. I was noticing the subject being directed to the mentioning of the word (“evangelize”)

Greek 2097 / εὐαγγελίζω / euaggelizō / yoo-ang-ghel-id'-zo



Meaning To announce / evangelize”) To declare, bring (declare, show) glad (good) tidings, preach (the gospel). In the Bible this Greek Word is used over 50 times. It is Mainly the word Preach or Preaching. However in Luk 2:10 it is used to say Good Tidings.

10. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

I disagree with the Catholic Point of View. There are no Priests in the Early Church in The Bible. However there are Bishops Bishop's are superintendents and - in general charge of a church overseers. - .and Deacons are Teachers, ministers and servants in the bible. -


The Bible is clear that the Deacon and Bishop MUST be / Needs to be and Ought To Be - The Husband of A Wife.This Greek Word MUST is the Greek 1163 δεῖ / dei / die, or deh-on'

Meaning - MUST - necessary (as binding): - behoved, be meet, must (needs), (be) need (-ful), ought, should. Needs To Be. .............

The Bible Clearly again, again and again Commands that Bishops - Teachers and Servants of the Church MUST be married. Bishops Bust be married.

1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; - 1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

The Evidence Proves that CATHOLISLAMIC Religions are Based on Adultery. Pure Anti Family Religions. Masquerading - As having a Special Admiration, A Special Connection and This Great Devotion to their Hero - Abraham.They Spend their Entire Lives, Wasting their Time. Pretending to Love and Admire Abraham And Jacob. While their Religious TEACHINGS, Their FAITHS are Opposing and Opposite Abraham, Jacob and the Laws of Marriage of The Bible. They in Fact truly dislike them greatly. Yes Many, Many, Many Other Countries have the Same tYpe Milder Problems.

But - Thousands of Catholic and Islamic immigrants Today are Caused by The Loose Living Family LIFESTYLE of Catholics and Muslims. That is not Just a Part of their Society, City, Village, Country or Island. But a Part of Their RELIGION.

They don't have or Raise Very Many People like Me and You, To Pay in The Thousands and Thousands of Dollars in taXes. People Who Who believe the Old and New Testament Religion Suggestions of Family importance, and Not Divorcing Divorce and Fatherless Children is not such a Bad thing to Catholics And Muslims. Based on the Religion SETUP of their SYSTEMS. They are Truly ANTI FAMILY. Every Catholic and Muslim Country is filled with Children who have no Mommy, No Daddy no Family. Living together as a Family of ABRAHAMIC FAITH. While they PRETEND they Love Abraham, Jacob and FAMILY,... It is all FAKE Pretense. Pretending.


The Roman Catholic Role MODEL is a distant Priest, who Hides all of His seXual ( Homosexual Or Heterosexual ) All activities in the DARKNESS. Who has no Family, No Wife, No CHILDREN. Nothing. But Secrets and Lies and Hidden agendas.
The Role Model of the Hebrew Priest was a FAMILY MAN with Wives, Many, Many Children. A FAMILY UNIT. This was what the Children Look to as an PHYSICAL FAMILY eXample. Catholic Children are Taught that these priests are Role Models. yet They Themselves Live Like Distant Stars -

Do You know what a Star Does ? - A Star is Showing its Light From a Long, Long Distance away. You never Really get to see the Light until a long time has passed. So You never Really Get to Know anything about the Lives of People Who act like Stars. Bowing Down before them, Kneeling and Kissing Insane and Ferociously Reverently, Crying, Confessing, Slobbering and Stuttering in a Fever and Shaking in Emotional Convolution Fits to People - Who Are Worshiped.

The Popes, Priests and Nuns Who are Called FATHERS / MOTHERS.... But are not Fathers Nor Mothers. But they Have no Children. No Family. ! They Hide Everything They Do, Like Stars the Catholic People never are Allowed to see the True Face of these Holy, Revered People.

This has Destroyed the Entire Catholic World. Across the Entire Planet. A Complete Total Wave of eternal Poor Youth who are never Taught the King JAMES 1Ti 3:10 A Bishop and Deacon MUST be MARRIED. MUST HAVE CHILDREN / A FAMILY> !

They do not believe Your Bible. They Have no Bible for their Faith. They Are Taught By Our Hero The Pope, that Muslims are Practicing The Abrahamic Religion and Abrahams and Jacobs Old Bible Polygamy and Marriage. Muslims are Following in The Footsteps of Abrahamic and Jacob - Catholics are Taught this By their Masters, Teachers and Priests, Bishops, Popes and Mothers and Fathers. It is all Total False. The Religious Structures of these CATHOLISLAMIC People is destroying the Idea of FAMILY.

Not Just basic Countries , Cities , Towns , and Random Statistics of Villages who fall Below the Poverty Line because they Too - are having a Good time, Having a Late Night Out At the party, or the Club and cant stop. These Type of Situations Such As Here in the Americas Can Easily be Handled By Folks Like Yourself or I.

Who have Saved our Money, Who believe the Bible IDEAOLOGY in Waiting to get married Before having 4 - 9 Children . Or before having any Children. There are Plenty of Americans, Russians, German and NON CATHOLISLAMIC People - Who still Clinging and Holding tight to the Bible IDEA of a Child Who has no Family - is so, so Horrible.

We can handle the Catholics and Muslims and Other - Even the few Percentage of protestant and Atheistic - and ALL - Poverty issues. around the Entire Planet and Even to the Galaxy. We Got it Covered.

CATHOLSLAMIC Societies have Nothing Covered. They are Not Taught To Be Concerned about anything but Finding a Way To Get You and me to Empty Our Pocket and Pay for them to have the next seXual Adventure. That they are Taught to Hide and Cover up. AS A RELIGION. Following their Priests and Bishops and Nuns.

We Can Pay our Family Planned SAVINGS - to Make up the Slack Here in America, To Make Up The Total Perversion of the CATHOLISLAMIC Degrade.

The Facts do not even Support Their religious Claims. Perhaps is a Hidden deep Rooted Distain for the Truth, They Pretend to Love. Simply Pretending Just because of the truly eXistant hidden Distain and Abhorrence.

they Outcast, Ban, Fire and eXcomunicate the Priest or Bishop who Has a family. This is why the Catholic World is Living in Poverty and an eternal circle of refugees and The billions of abandoned Fatherless.

Your understanding is way off. As is your sentence structure, grammar, etc. Your sense of history, as well as historical teaching, origins, and labels are also false/without base.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Sleekbacksmile
July 26th, 2017, 10:35 PM
.
You do a good job at making claims that I have presented incorrect statements.

But Your Good Job is all that You are able to do. Because it is all You are Able to do. And Always will do. Because You will Fail Every time - To provide a single Statement that I have made - to be incorrect or a lie.

Your Gob is Good. Bit it is all You can do. That is whay it is always a Good Job. at doing nothing.

Sleekbacksmile
July 26th, 2017, 10:39 PM
.

That is why Donald Trump is not allowing Your Abrahamic models and Abrahamic representatives to enter into the USA. Because what I say is Complete Face. You simply Have no Scriptures No Facts for Your Faith.

God's Truth
July 27th, 2017, 12:35 AM
Paul received a gospel (Galatians 1:11-12 KJV)
All the apostles received that gospel.



that was before a mystery (Romans 16:25-26 KJV)

That is the gospel of Jesus Christ.



and he tells us why (1 Corinthians 2:6-8 KJV).
Paul says his gospel is why they killed the Lord. That proves Paul preached the same gospel that Jesus preached.



He declares it in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV and preaches that the formula for being saved

Jesus preached he was going to die when he walked the earth. He also preached that he would rise up again.


and sealed is Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV.

They believed that they had to repent of their sins and that is what they did.



It is a salvation by grace through faith/not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV).

Paul is speaking about CIRCUMCISION. Just look at two more scriptures down from the ones you gave.

Ephesians 2:11 [ Jew and Gentile Reconciled Through Christ ] Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)—



Anything you add to as a requirement to it besides the obvious requirement to believe (Romans 1:16 KJV, Romans 3:21-22 KJV) is another gospel than that which Paul preached and in so doing let you be accursed (Galatians 1:8-9 KJV).

No, no one is cursed if they obey God. Even believing is obeying God.

lifeisgood
July 27th, 2017, 06:46 AM
belief - 1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists
2. trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something
=====
obedience - compliance with an order, request, or law or submission to another's authority

Robert Pate
July 27th, 2017, 07:36 AM
belief - 1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists
2. trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something
=====
obedience - compliance with an order, request, or law or submission to another's authority

They are not the same are they? To confuse the two is outright heresy.

Sleekbacksmile
August 15th, 2017, 01:02 PM
.
The understanding is right on. The sentence structures reflect the Facts.

Grammar has to be fitted to safe space and time etc. History is not a part of my Posts. Other than the Fact that Islamic and Catholic religions have a HISTORY of creating Abandoned, fatherless Homeless refugee children by the millions.

What is incorrect about my Posts. ?

jsanford108
August 15th, 2017, 02:07 PM
There was a change in the law all right. It was abolished, Ephesians 2:15.

Ephesians 2:15 says nothing about abolishing the law. In fact, Christ Himself said He did not come to abolished the law (Matthew 5:17).


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

jsanford108
August 15th, 2017, 02:18 PM
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The understanding is right on. The sentence structures reflect the Facts.

Grammar has to be fitted to safe space and time etc. History is not a part of my Posts. Other than the Fact that Islamic and Catholic religions have a HISTORY of creating Abandoned, fatherless Homeless refugee children by the millions.

What is incorrect about my Posts. ?

The understanding was clear. However, the sentence structure did not reflect facts, rather falsehoods. Sentence structure should highlight subjects; hence, the use of proper grammar being necessary to clearly present subject matter. Grammar being "fitted to safe space and time etc" makes no sense. I assume you meant "save space and time," but that is still a false statement. Grammar, as I just stated, is to enhance a sentence to clearly demonstrate a subject, while allowing for easy logical analysis.

So there is the basic English 100 issues within your posts. As for "History," there is plenty wrong with your posts. First, your claim that "History is not a part of my Posts" is inaccurate, as you presented many claims that such elements did or did not exist, such as there being no priests in the early church. Second, Catholicism does not have a history of creating abandoned, fatherless, or homeless refugee children by the millions. If I am wrong, please present evidence that supports this claim.

To further prove my point that your post lacked historical fact, I will break it down further in my next post, in this thread.

(See how easy it was to read a grammatically correct post? Grammar does aid all who utilize it.)

jsanford108
August 15th, 2017, 02:59 PM
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Hello Everyone. Delight to be here.

. I had to break my bad habit of using too many CAPS and all bold. The moderator quickly set me on the right path. Thank You.

I have been reading most all of the posts here. The going back and forth, it is very interesting. I was noticing the subject being directed to the mentioning of the word (“evangelize”)

Greek 2097 / εὐαγγελίζω / euaggelizō / yoo-ang-ghel-id'-zo



Meaning To announce / evangelize”) To declare, bring (declare, show) glad (good) tidings, preach (the gospel). In the Bible this Greek Word is used over 50 times. It is Mainly the word Preach or Preaching. However in Luk 2:10 it is used to say Good Tidings.

10. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

I disagree with the Catholic Point of View. There are no Priests in the Early Church in The Bible. However there are Bishops Bishop's are superintendents and - in general charge of a church overseers. - .and Deacons are Teachers, ministers and servants in the bible. -


The Bible is clear that the Deacon and Bishop MUST be / Needs to be and Ought To Be - The Husband of A Wife.This Greek Word MUST is the Greek 1163 δεῖ / dei / die, or deh-on'

Meaning - MUST - necessary (as binding): - behoved, be meet, must (needs), (be) need (-ful), ought, should. Needs To Be. .............

The Bible Clearly again, again and again Commands that Bishops - Teachers and Servants of the Church MUST be married. Bishops Bust be married.

1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; - 1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

The Evidence Proves that CATHOLISLAMIC Religions are Based on Adultery. Pure Anti Family Religions. Masquerading - As having a Special Admiration, A Special Connection and This Great Devotion to their Hero - Abraham.They Spend their Entire Lives, Wasting their Time. Pretending to Love and Admire Abraham And Jacob. While their Religious TEACHINGS, Their FAITHS are Opposing and Opposite Abraham, Jacob and the Laws of Marriage of The Bible. They in Fact truly dislike them greatly. Yes Many, Many, Many Other Countries have the Same tYpe Milder Problems.

But - Thousands of Catholic and Islamic immigrants Today are Caused by The Loose Living Family LIFESTYLE of Catholics and Muslims. That is not Just a Part of their Society, City, Village, Country or Island. But a Part of Their RELIGION.

They don't have or Raise Very Many People like Me and You, To Pay in The Thousands and Thousands of Dollars in taXes. People Who Who believe the Old and New Testament Religion Suggestions of Family importance, and Not Divorcing Divorce and Fatherless Children is not such a Bad thing to Catholics And Muslims. Based on the Religion SETUP of their SYSTEMS. They are Truly ANTI FAMILY. Every Catholic and Muslim Country is filled with Children who have no Mommy, No Daddy no Family. Living together as a Family of ABRAHAMIC FAITH. While they PRETEND they Love Abraham, Jacob and FAMILY,... It is all FAKE Pretense. Pretending.


The Roman Catholic Role MODEL is a distant Priest, who Hides all of His seXual ( Homosexual Or Heterosexual ) All activities in the DARKNESS. Who has no Family, No Wife, No CHILDREN. Nothing. But Secrets and Lies and Hidden agendas.
The Role Model of the Hebrew Priest was a FAMILY MAN with Wives, Many, Many Children. A FAMILY UNIT. This was what the Children Look to as an PHYSICAL FAMILY eXample. Catholic Children are Taught that these priests are Role Models. yet They Themselves Live Like Distant Stars -

Do You know what a Star Does ? - A Star is Showing its Light From a Long, Long Distance away. You never Really get to see the Light until a long time has passed. So You never Really Get to Know anything about the Lives of People Who act like Stars. Bowing Down before them, Kneeling and Kissing Insane and Ferociously Reverently, Crying, Confessing, Slobbering and Stuttering in a Fever and Shaking in Emotional Convolution Fits to People - Who Are Worshiped.

The Popes, Priests and Nuns Who are Called FATHERS / MOTHERS.... But are not Fathers Nor Mothers. But they Have no Children. No Family. ! They Hide Everything They Do, Like Stars the Catholic People never are Allowed to see the True Face of these Holy, Revered People.

This has Destroyed the Entire Catholic World. Across the Entire Planet. A Complete Total Wave of eternal Poor Youth who are never Taught the King JAMES 1Ti 3:10 A Bishop and Deacon MUST be MARRIED. MUST HAVE CHILDREN / A FAMILY> !

They do not believe Your Bible. They Have no Bible for their Faith. They Are Taught By Our Hero The Pope, that Muslims are Practicing The Abrahamic Religion and Abrahams and Jacobs Old Bible Polygamy and Marriage. Muslims are Following in The Footsteps of Abrahamic and Jacob - Catholics are Taught this By their Masters, Teachers and Priests, Bishops, Popes and Mothers and Fathers. It is all Total False. The Religious Structures of these CATHOLISLAMIC People is destroying the Idea of FAMILY.

Not Just basic Countries , Cities , Towns , and Random Statistics of Villages who fall Below the Poverty Line because they Too - are having a Good time, Having a Late Night Out At the party, or the Club and cant stop. These Type of Situations Such As Here in the Americas Can Easily be Handled By Folks Like Yourself or I.

Who have Saved our Money, Who believe the Bible IDEAOLOGY in Waiting to get married Before having 4 - 9 Children . Or before having any Children. There are Plenty of Americans, Russians, German and NON CATHOLISLAMIC People - Who still Clinging and Holding tight to the Bible IDEA of a Child Who has no Family - is so, so Horrible.

We can handle the Catholics and Muslims and Other - Even the few Percentage of protestant and Atheistic - and ALL - Poverty issues. around the Entire Planet and Even to the Galaxy. We Got it Covered.

CATHOLSLAMIC Societies have Nothing Covered. They are Not Taught To Be Concerned about anything but Finding a Way To Get You and me to Empty Our Pocket and Pay for them to have the next seXual Adventure. That they are Taught to Hide and Cover up. AS A RELIGION. Following their Priests and Bishops and Nuns.

We Can Pay our Family Planned SAVINGS - to Make up the Slack Here in America, To Make Up The Total Perversion of the CATHOLISLAMIC Degrade.

The Facts do not even Support Their religious Claims. Perhaps is a Hidden deep Rooted Distain for the Truth, They Pretend to Love. Simply Pretending Just because of the truly eXistant hidden Distain and Abhorrence.

they Outcast, Ban, Fire and eXcomunicate the Priest or Bishop who Has a family. This is why the Catholic World is Living in Poverty and an eternal circle of refugees and The billions of abandoned Fatherless.

I will proceed by underlining your words, provided in quotation marks. (These are grammatical tools, useful for highlighting quotations)

"I disagree with the Catholic Point of View. There are no Priests in the Early Church in The Bible. However there are Bishops Bishop's are superintendents and - in general charge of a church overseers. - .and Deacons are Teachers, ministers and servants in the bible.": The English word "priest" is derived from the Greek word presbuteros, which is commonly rendered into Bible English as "elder" or "presbyter." The ministry of Catholic priests is that of the presbyters mentioned in the New Testament (Acts 15:6 and 23). The Scriptures say little about the duties of presbyters, but it does reveal they functioned in a "priestly" capacity. They were ordained by the laying on of hands (1 Timothy 4:14, 5:22), they preached and taught the flock (1 Timothy 5:17), and they administered sacraments (James 5:13-15). These are the essential functions of the priestly office, so wherever the various forms of presbuteros appear, except, of course, in instances which pertain to the Jewish elders (Matthew 21:23, Acts 4:23), the word may rightly be translated as "priest" instead of "elder" or "presbyter."

"The Bible is clear that the Deacon and Bishop MUST be / Needs to be and Ought To Be - The Husband of A Wife": Episcopos arises from two words, epi (over) and skopeo (to see), and it means literally "an overseer": We translate it as "bishop." The King James Version renders the office of overseer, episkopen, as "bishopric" (Acts 1:20). The role of the episcopos is not clearly defined in the New Testament, but by the beginning of the second century it had obtained a fixed meaning. There is early evidence of this refinement in ecclesiastical nomenclature in the writings of Ignatius of Antioch (died approx. A.D. 107), who wrote at length of the authority of bishops as distinct from presbyters and deacons (Epistle to the Magnesians 6:1, 13:1-2; Epistle to the Trallians 2:1-3; Epistle to the Smyrnaeans 8:1-2). I will address the marital aspects below.

"The Bible Clearly again, again and again Commands that Bishops - Teachers and Servants of the Church MUST be married. Bishops Bust be married." Where does the Bible say this? Please provide the Scripture verse, and passage, that denotes this.
There is evidence that early bishops, including Popes, had wives. But that does not mean that they had to. If that were the case, would there not be such a command in the New Testament? If there is, as I asked, please provide it.

"The Evidence Proves that CATHOLISLAMIC Religions are Based on Adultery. Pure Anti Family Religions": What evidence? Please provide it.
Catholicism promotes family, more than any other religion or denomination. Catholicism is the only denomination that has never altered its stance on abortion, marriage, contraception, etc. Catholicism teaches that marriage is for the purpose of rearing children to glorify God. Evidenced in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Article 7, beginning in paragraph 1601, "The matrimonial covenant, by which a man and a woman establish between themselves a partnership of the whole of life, is by its nature ordered toward the good of the spouses and the procreation and education of offspring; this covenant between baptized persons has been raised by Christ the Lord to the dignity of a sacrament." It goes on to show how marriage is part of God's Divine Plan for humanity, etc.

"Divorce and Fatherless Children is not such a Bad thing to Catholics": Divorce is a serious issue for Catholics. It takes serious time and effort to receive a divorce in the Catholic Church, as marriage as seen as a lifelong commitment, with the intention to procreate. This is a blatant falsehood that you have procured.

"Every Catholic and Muslim Country is filled with Children who have no Mommy, No Daddy no Family": Can you provide the statics and evidence that support this claim? (My guess is that no such evidence exists; this is just another falsehood you made up)

"The Roman Catholic Role MODEL is a distant Priest, who Hides all of His seXual ( Homosexual Or Heterosexual ) All activities in the DARKNESS.": The Pope is not "the role model." He is a role model (hopefully), but not "the role model," as that is Christ. Catholics hope that the Pope maintains his vows of celibacy. If the Pope does falter on these vows, we hope he seeks forgiveness, but he will lose his position as Pope. Catholics do not hold the Pope up as being beyond sin; he is human after all. So we know the Pope will sin. Obviously. We do hope that such sins are not the breaking of vows that he swore before the Lord.

"Nothing. But Secrets and Lies and Hidden agendas": Please, enlighten us to the Pope's secrets, lies, and hidden agendas. I am sure you have overwhelming factual evidence for these, as well (sarcasm). Please, provide the proof.

"The Popes, Priests and Nuns Who are Called FATHERS / MOTHERS.... But are not Fathers Nor Mothers. But they Have no Children": They are called these names, because they "bear" spiritual children; leading and instructing the laypeople. There is more to this, but this will suffice for the time being.

"They do not believe Your Bible. They Have no Bible for their Faith.": The Catholics are the reason there is a Bible. If I am wrong, prove it. Demonstrate the historical evidence for your position. Catholic Bibles are in mass print. Such examples are: the earliest version, the Douay-Rhiems, the RSV, NAAB, etc. There is also a Bible present in all Vatican II Hymnals.

"Who have Saved our Money, Who believe the Bible IDEAOLOGY in Waiting to get married Before having 4 - 9 Children . Or before having any Children": Catholicism teaches that premarital sex is a mortal sin. Whereas it is not of moral gravity in most protestant denominations. Once again, blatant falsehood on your part. (There seems to be a pattern here, does there not?)

"They are Not Taught To Be Concerned about anything but Finding a Way To Get You and me to Empty Our Pocket and Pay for them to have the next seXual Adventure": Once again, there is no such teaching or evident to be found for this falsehood. Please, provide the proof, if I am wrong.

"they Outcast, Ban, Fire and eXcomunicate the Priest or Bishop who Has a family": A religious position, such as priest, bishop, cardinal, or pope, who is found in error, of breaking their sacred vow, then they are removed from their position. They are "fired," but they are not outcast or excommunicated. Once again, pure falsehood.

"This is why the Catholic World is Living in Poverty and an eternal circle of refugees and The billions of abandoned Fatherless": The reason for this, you claim, is that the priesthood is cast out for having families. That is a real stretch in logic which makes no sense, as there are more laypeople than priests. Once again, this is a false conclusion based on your ideas, rather than evidence and fact.

What one can easily deduce from your post is that there is no evidence for your "facts." That these "facts" are falsehoods, produced by yourself in order to try and knock down a true Christian Church.

I am in no capacity defending Islam, as it is the perversion of Christianity, rooted in its own falsehoods. Ironically, Islam claims that Catholicism is not of God, just as you do. They claim their falsehoods are facts, just as you do. They believe in their own twisted perversions of truth, just as you do. They ignore actual historical evidence, which contradicts them, just as you do.

In closing, you have no evidence within your post, to support your claims. In fact, there is evidence that negates your claims. Therefore, a logical and reasonable conclusion is that you have simple given us nothing but falsehoods for consideration, effectively detracting from theological discussion.

Sleekbacksmile
August 26th, 2017, 06:48 AM
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The Fact REMAINS - Proving that The Scriptures say nothing about the duties of Roman Catholic Priests, Bishops or Popes.

As There are absolutely No Priests, No Popes - in The New Testament Church.
Proving that The Greek Word for a priest is Greek 2409 ἱερεύς = Hiereus / Hee-er-yooce' Meaning - A Priest.

And Chief Priest GREEK 749 ἀρχιερεύς = Arc Hiereus / Ark Hee-er-yooce' .

Catholics sadly Simply - have No Proof / No scriptures for their Faith. Nothing.

You simply are deceiving people. There is not a SINGLE instance of a Priest or a Pope being mentioned in the New Testament Church. THIS is A FACT.

Proving that There is no word ( NO WORD ) that can be translated as "priest" instead of "elder" or "presbyter." You are Lying.

Proving in The Scriptures that the word Presbyter." Elder or Presbuteros * Refers to Older People, including Mothers, Women and Even an Older Prostitute.

The Greek word Presbuteros *( In The Bible ) has nothing to do with ROLE or FUNCTION of a Roman Catholic Priest. nor any Priest at all anywhere in the Scriptures.

Proving that This Confirms My Point of Fact. That Catholics Simply have no scriptures for their Faith.

Hebrews Chapter 11 - Gives the Names, Characters and Terms For An Elder / Presbuteros *

Proving that In - 1Ti 5:2 The Elder Presbuteros * are in fact Elder Mothers; Compared to the younger as sisters, with all cleanliness.

The Elder Presbuteros * are Basic mothers; Elder Women. are as Presbuteros

Proving that In Heb 11:11 - Sara Herself is LISTED / Called as An Elder Presbuteros *

Proving that In Heb 11:31 The Prostitute / Whore Rahab is LISTED / Called one of The Elders a Presbuteros *

in Heb 11:2 All The elders Presbuteros * obtained a good report.
Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Gedeon, Barak, Samson, Jephthae, David Samuel And The prophets: Are The Elders Presbuteros *

Proving that always in the Bible AN Elder / a Presbuteros * - was Just a basic Older person.

Again In Mat 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders Presbuteros * ?

Again In In Joh 8:9 it is just simply refering to the Older, Presbuteros * Aged people in the Crowd.

Joh 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the The ( Oldest Elders Presbuteros * ,) even unto the last.

Proving that Again In 1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the older Presbuteros * .

Again Your entire Romantic Catholic Theory is based on a Complete Lie.

Proving that - Here we have The Story of The Protical Son and the older brother of the Protoical son is Called the Elder - The Presbuteros *.

See * Luk 15:25 Now his elder Presbuteros * son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.


Proving that in FACT in direct reference to Woman as well. Rahab the Whore, Sarah and also all basic Older Mothers who have Children. Are Called The Presbuteros *.

Proving that Priests and Nuns are not even setting an eXample for a Family.*. They have no Children and once they acquire a Child, They are terminated and shoved aside from their work.

Setting and PROMOTING The model eXample for all Catholics worldwide – That Hiding Your seXual affairs is ok until You get pregnant. Untill You get Caught getting married.

Then once You have a Child or Get married - You are a thrown down to a Lower, Degraded, Lesser eXterminated status, in Gods Catholic Kingdom.

Proving that You are Fired. And the Roman Catholic People see You as a Failure. Defrocked and no longer the Prime eXample that Catholics are taught to Look to as Gods Church.

Losing Your Status in the Church, Loosing Your Position. Just because You Follow the Biblical eXample of a Married Deacon and Elder who has a Family.

Proving that There is absolutely No Family eXample here - As Shown in the bible in 1Ti 3:2 A bishop and Elder - then must be blameless, the husband of a wife……………………………

A Catholic Bishop following the Bible is out casted ousted and Removed / Thrown Out totally eXcommunicated - from the very office of the Priesthood.

Proving that in 1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God? )

1Ti 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

1Ti 3:11 The deacons wives are to be be honorable , not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12 to be the husbands of a wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Proving that The Word of God is very clear. Deacons and Bishops are to be Married with a Family - This Shows them How to take CARE of Gods Church. And Shows Gods Church How important a Family is.

Catholicism is ANTI family. The Roman Catholic Highest Role MODEL is a distant Priest, who Hides all of His seXual ( Homosexual Or Heterosexual ) All activities in the DARKNESS. Who has no Family, No Wife, No CHILDREN. Nothing. But Secrets and Lies and Hidden agendas.

But they call Him Father. And the nuns they Call Mothers. But they have no children. They are Spiritual Frauds.

I do not Concern myself with the scribbling, doodling ravings of the Fraudulent Forgeries of Ignatius of Nothingness. Christians who have Gods Word know to never trust in documents of men who pervert The Bible.
It is best to forget Forges Ignatius'The Ignition switch that kills the bible truth.

The writings are seen as forgeries or Junk theology by Millions
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God never Promised, Swore and Proclaimed to Preserve the Ramblings of the Roman Catholic Church Fathers. And They are more likely forgeries of Rome from around 250 to 500 AD. The Bible doesn't help in presenting The Roman Catholic faith and
No other post-Roman Cathoic Father before 200 AD helps them either .

They simply have nothing. Only a man of depraved mind with an evil thirst for power would ever equate the authority of a bishop with The Lord Jesus Christ.

Proving that Ignatius ignights violation, Satanic Perversity and Damage to the qualifications set forth in 1 Tim 3 and Tit 1, where bishops are called Elders, meaning an elder man. older man with a Wife and Family is the Most Important DUTY, QUALIFICATION and PURPOUS for an elder.

the Most Important DUTY is to show the Non Catholic Christians the Family Structure.

Here are More ramblings of Ignatius of Antioch - On the Office of Bishop.
Chapter 6: I exhort you to study to do all things with a divine harmony, while your bishop presides in the place of God.

Catholicism also teaches that Muslims are serving the God Of Abraham.."
But
Islam is a Religion that promotes Adultery and Child Molestation.

Here Proving that The Average Roman Catholic has no need to do defending for Islam.

The Pope has Kissed His Quran, A Book that Glorifies, Revels and Lusts and Tempts its readers to ache and throb for the seXual desires of a Little 8 year old child.

The Freak Show Pope Clown is Bowing down in Adoration and Worship to His Quran and then proceeded to declare that Muslims are Serving The Same eXact God as Christians. While the next Pope Does The Same eXact Act and proceeds to pray With Muslims facing Mecca.

Christians and Gods Church are vomiting and reeling in absolute Holy and Righteous Disgust.

Proving that The Catholic Holds Up Mohammud as A Spiritual Father of their acclaimed Faith -

Spewing and Dumping out His Prophetic Revelations and Prophecies and messages as a Fact. While the Bible declares them all Liars.

Proving that Roman Catholics are Sola Quran - Regarding The Prophetic Lies Of Their Father Mohammud.

The Prophetic Lie that Muslims are Following Abraham is a Catholic Teaching and DEMAND - that was REVEALED and PROPHECIED by their Father Mohammad. And Goes against the BIBLE. In every single way.

The Pope and Roman Catholics are Pushing the REVELATIONS and PROPHECIES of their Father Mohammad and it is Causing people to be deceived and the bible has already Cleared all of this up.

Mohammud Introduced the NEW SOlA QURANIC Prophecy, *( REVELATION ) that Allah was the God of Abraham and of the Bible. Before Mohammud eXisted - This Quranic Catholic Tradition did not eXist.

Mohammud Introduced the NEW Prophecy, *( Quranic REVELATION ) That Mother Mary of Islam is the Same Mother Mary of the Scriptures . Before Mohammud eXisted - This Catholic Tradition did not eXist.

Proving that Mohammud is The Quranic Catholic Father - of this Traditional Faith. / Revelation / or Prophecy.

Proving that The Vatican Today - follows the Prophecy, Revelations and the TRADITION of Mohammud. The Catholic Church Confirms Mohammud's Revelation, That Mother Mary has an Important and Holy, Devine Role in islam. In the Quran and also in records of Visions, Prophecy and Revelations of Mother Mary - to Muslims today.
Proving that Mary is Confirming the Message of Islam. Yet the Pope still Kisses his Quran and Prays with Muslims. They believe in and worship The SAME eXact God.

AND This is what the Quranic Catholic Church Teaches.... SOlA QURAN.

Mohammud Also Introduced the NEW SOlA QURANIC Prophecy, *( REVELATION ) That He and His Followers were Descendants of Ishmael.

It is Proving that Roman Catholics follow these SOlA QURANIC REVELATIONS and Prophecies of Mohammad. The Prophecies and Revelations He received - That He was a Descendant of Ishmael, AND That Ishmaelites were a still a LIVING group of people alive at the time of Mohammud. The Prophecies and Quranic Revelations that The Ishmaelites were Given an Abrahamic Covenant by God.

The SOlA QURANIC Prophecies and Revelations that Allah was the God of Abraham. All of these Catholic Teachings are proven wrong by the Bible and Also by basic World History. FACTS.

Mohammad is A Spiritual Father of This Roman Catholic Faith.

Before Mohammud eXisted - This Catholic Tradition did not eXist. There were no Catholic or World Historical Accounts that give any claim to the Idea that There were a KNOWN people alive anywhere on Earth, at Mohammuds time - who were Proven or known to be descended from Ishmael.

Mohammud is the Father of this Traditional Faith. / His Revelation / His Prophecy was not based on Evidence or Facts, but upon a spiritual Revelation. - yet Catholics everywhere are compelled to place their FAITH on Mohammuds Prophecy and Revelations. Given by the Revelation of a Spirit.

Mohammud Introduced the NEW Prophecy, *( REVELATION ) That People can find a Salvation PLAN - in Following islam . By following a Plan that Declares that the God of the Bible is a Lie and His People are Evil and that Christ and His Bride are damned unless they Reject Jesus Christ.

In - The Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium 16, November 21, 1964. We Find “But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Remember that - Before Mohammud eXisted - This Catholic Tradition did not eXist. Mohammud Alone - is the Catholic Father of this Traditional Faith. /

Mohammuds Revelation and Prophecy that tells that people that people can be Saved OUTSIDE of the Roman Catholic Church.

But The Summo Iugiter (On Mixed Marriages), Encyclical promulgated on May 27, 1832, #2 Tell That The Great Pope Gregory XVI, - Declares that "MISGUIDED PEOPLE attempt TO PERSUADE themselves and others ,THAT MEN ARE NOT SAVED ONLY IN THE CATHOLIC RELIGION, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.'

and The Bull of Union with the Copts', Council of Florence, Session 11, on February 4, 1442. .... the Great Pope Eugenius IV - Declares that " All OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, Jews or heretics CANNOT SHARE IN ETERNAL life and will GO INTO THE EVERLASTING FIRE, which was prepared for the devil and his angels, UNLESS THEY ARE JOINED TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH .

There are so many, many more Statements of Popes who make Demands that one Must be a Romantic Catholic in order to be saved and to serve the SAME God.

Such as - 'Heretics (those who are NOT MEMBERS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH or who DO NOT HOLD TO CATHOLIC DOCTRINE) - Worship a God WHO IS A LIAR, and a CHRIST WHO IS A LIAR.'

This is the message of the Great Catholic Father - St. Augustine, (quoted in 'Patrologiae Cursus Completus: Series Graca', by Fr. J. P. Migne, Paris: 1866, 42:207).

Could it be - That Catholics and many Protestants - Simply have no scriptures for their Faith. ?

Or that catholics hate the Bible so much they cant defend their Lies with one false god alone - So They Make a mad dive and try SOlA QURAN to Fight against SOLA BIBLICA.

REMEMBER that It does not go to show anything about how marriage is part of God's Divine Plan for humanity.

When The God is asking Catholic Bishops and Priests to be married with A FAMILY.

The Catholic Church Closes The Book and Mockingly Askes You for the passage of scripture one again.

They Love To WASTE every last moment of Time. Having You looking , search and fondle around in Your dumb bible For Something they never were interested in to begin with. This is their Ultimate glory. When it Comes to the Bible.

"Divorce and Fatherless Children is not such a Bad thing to Catholics": Divorce is a serious issue for Catholics. It takes serious time and effort to receive a divorce in the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church PERMITS and ALLOWS and sanctions The Divorce.

And after The Divorce the Catholic Church will Re Remarry You as well.

But the Bible does not Allow this. All of Your Claims are Lies. All Big Claims, that are followed by a million Lies. It is a Fact. The Catholic Church - Tells You it is OK to Get the Divorce THEN It is OK To Get Married Again.
The bible says that This is Evil.

"Every Catholic and Muslim Country is filled with Children who have no Mommy, No Daddy no Family": They do not have family values. The facts and statistics prove it.
The Catholics AND Muslims are pouring in over the borders because they have no family no fathers and home. They do not Have Family planning. No Inheritance for their Children. The Average Catholic and Muslim Mother has 2 – 6 Children from multiple fathers.

And we know that Catholics Like You, simply are not Honest. They don’t keep records, They don’t tell the truth. They Lie.

Because they are Taught to Lie by the Priests, Bishops and Nuns who Set the eXample of a bump, bump, bump and go seX life. Where Children and marriage are horrible, Evil Devolving outcomes that disrupt Gods plan in the hierarchy of Gods plans for the Leaders themselves.

Catholicism is an eXample of a total bump, bump, bump and Go seXual deviant, devilish Society when it comes to having Children. They have no Concern for Family Planning. Just taX , Mob, eXtort , Pirate and Beg and Hustle from The Evil Protestants. This is their Mentality.

The biggest chunk of the planned 2017 spending, $78.9 million, is devoted to democracy, human rights and governance programs, including supporting civic institutions.

Because the Society of Catholicism is built on total Lies that leave people in a world of complete ignorance and helplessness.

An additional $43.8 million is devoted to promoting peace and security, including counter-narcotics operations and combating transnational crime.
Because nearly everyone is on Drugs. Meth, Pot Heroine You name it.

While the Leaders set up a False RELIGION that is found No Where in Gods word. While Producing "Nothing. But seXual Secrets, seXual Lies and Hidden seXual agendas. The Entire seX life of The Catholic is a Lie.

Roman Catholics have no Bible for their Faith.": The Catholic church Produced its first second Hand Translation into Latin and did not finish it until nearly 500 years after Jesus Christ. Which There was already a Latin Bible translated already before.

It took the Catholic Church nearly 500 years after Jesus Just to produce a single Latin Bible. They never produced any Bible. Because There was simply already a Latin Bible Produced by Christians in Northern Africa nearly 300 years before that the Catholic Church Decided to even finish its Vulgate.

Then The Catholic Produced a second second Hand Translation nearly 2000 YEARS Later ! - That is 2000 YEARS That it took the Catholic Church to make a second second Hand Translation of The Bible - INTO another Language - Other than Latin.
What a total Disgraceful Blasphemous shaggy dog story Joke You are attempting to tell people here.

Nearly 2000 years to Produce a Bible into another Language other than Latin. The very first complete Bible in English to be produced by the Catholic Church was the Douay Rheims, A translation from the Latin Vulgate, which was finally completed in the early 17th century.

REMEMBER . The First Hand-written English language Bible manuscripts were produced in 1380's AD by John Wycliffe,

They were translated out of the Latin Vulgate, which was the only source text available to Wycliffe. The Pope was so infuriated by his teachings and his translation of the Bible into English, that 44 years after Wycliffe had died, he ordered the bones to be dug-up, crushed, and scattered in the river!

Ironically The Bible claims that Catholicism is not of God.

There are no Catholics in the Bible. No Catholic Saints, No Catholic Leaders and there is No Catholic God in the Bible

The evidence within My post supports My claims.

jsanford108
August 26th, 2017, 02:06 PM
.
The Fact REMAINS - Proving that The Scriptures say nothing about the duties of Roman Catholic Priests, Bishops or Popes.

As There are absolutely No Priests, No Popes - in The New Testament Church.
Proving that The Greek Word for a priest is Greek 2409 ἱερεύς = Hiereus / Hee-er-yooce' Meaning - A Priest.

And Chief Priest GREEK 749 ἀρχιερεύς = Arc Hiereus / Ark Hee-er-yooce' .

Catholics sadly Simply - have No Proof / No scriptures for their Faith. Nothing.

You simply are deceiving people. There is not a SINGLE instance of a Priest or a Pope being mentioned in the New Testament Church. THIS is A FACT.

Proving that There is no word ( NO WORD ) that can be translated as "priest" instead of "elder" or "presbyter." You are Lying.

Proving in The Scriptures that the word Presbyter." Elder or Presbuteros * Refers to Older People, including Mothers, Women and Even an Older Prostitute.

The Greek word Presbuteros *( In The Bible ) has nothing to do with ROLE or FUNCTION of a Roman Catholic Priest. nor any Priest at all anywhere in the Scriptures.

Proving that This Confirms My Point of Fact. That Catholics Simply have no scriptures for their Faith.

Hebrews Chapter 11 - Gives the Names, Characters and Terms For An Elder / Presbuteros *

Proving that In - 1Ti 5:2 The Elder Presbuteros * are in fact Elder Mothers; Compared to the younger as sisters, with all cleanliness.

The Elder Presbuteros * are Basic mothers; Elder Women. are as Presbuteros

Proving that In Heb 11:11 - Sara Herself is LISTED / Called as An Elder Presbuteros *

Proving that In Heb 11:31 The Prostitute / Whore Rahab is LISTED / Called one of The Elders a Presbuteros *

in Heb 11:2 All The elders Presbuteros * obtained a good report.
Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Gedeon, Barak, Samson, Jephthae, David Samuel And The prophets: Are The Elders Presbuteros *

Proving that always in the Bible AN Elder / a Presbuteros * - was Just a basic Older person.

Again In Mat 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders Presbuteros * ?

Again In In Joh 8:9 it is just simply refering to the Older, Presbuteros * Aged people in the Crowd.

Joh 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the The ( Oldest Elders Presbuteros * ,) even unto the last.

Proving that Again In 1Pe 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the older Presbuteros * .

Again Your entire Romantic Catholic Theory is based on a Complete Lie.

Proving that - Here we have The Story of The Protical Son and the older brother of the Protoical son is Called the Elder - The Presbuteros *.

See * Luk 15:25 Now his elder Presbuteros * son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.


Proving that in FACT in direct reference to Woman as well. Rahab the Whore, Sarah and also all basic Older Mothers who have Children. Are Called The Presbuteros *.

Proving that Priests and Nuns are not even setting an eXample for a Family.*. They have no Children and once they acquire a Child, They are terminated and shoved aside from their work.

Setting and PROMOTING The model eXample for all Catholics worldwide – That Hiding Your seXual affairs is ok until You get pregnant. Untill You get Caught getting married.

Then once You have a Child or Get married - You are a thrown down to a Lower, Degraded, Lesser eXterminated status, in Gods Catholic Kingdom.

Proving that You are Fired. And the Roman Catholic People see You as a Failure. Defrocked and no longer the Prime eXample that Catholics are taught to Look to as Gods Church.

Losing Your Status in the Church, Loosing Your Position. Just because You Follow the Biblical eXample of a Married Deacon and Elder who has a Family.

Proving that There is absolutely No Family eXample here - As Shown in the bible in 1Ti 3:2 A bishop and Elder - then must be blameless, the husband of a wife……………………………

A Catholic Bishop following the Bible is out casted ousted and Removed / Thrown Out totally eXcommunicated - from the very office of the Priesthood.

Proving that in 1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God? )

1Ti 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.

1Ti 3:11 The deacons wives are to be be honorable , not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12 to be the husbands of a wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Proving that The Word of God is very clear. Deacons and Bishops are to be Married with a Family - This Shows them How to take CARE of Gods Church. And Shows Gods Church How important a Family is.

Catholicism is ANTI family. The Roman Catholic Highest Role MODEL is a distant Priest, who Hides all of His seXual ( Homosexual Or Heterosexual ) All activities in the DARKNESS. Who has no Family, No Wife, No CHILDREN. Nothing. But Secrets and Lies and Hidden agendas.

But they call Him Father. And the nuns they Call Mothers. But they have no children. They are Spiritual Frauds.

I do not Concern myself with the scribbling, doodling ravings of the Fraudulent Forgeries of Ignatius of Nothingness. Christians who have Gods Word know to never trust in documents of men who pervert The Bible.
It is best to forget Forges Ignatius'The Ignition switch that kills the bible truth.

The writings are seen as forgeries or Junk theology by Millions
.
God never Promised, Swore and Proclaimed to Preserve the Ramblings of the Roman Catholic Church Fathers. And They are more likely forgeries of Rome from around 250 to 500 AD. The Bible doesn't help in presenting The Roman Catholic faith and
No other post-Roman Cathoic Father before 200 AD helps them either .

They simply have nothing. Only a man of depraved mind with an evil thirst for power would ever equate the authority of a bishop with The Lord Jesus Christ.

Proving that Ignatius ignights violation, Satanic Perversity and Damage to the qualifications set forth in 1 Tim 3 and Tit 1, where bishops are called Elders, meaning an elder man. older man with a Wife and Family is the Most Important DUTY, QUALIFICATION and PURPOUS for an elder.

the Most Important DUTY is to show the Non Catholic Christians the Family Structure.

Here are More ramblings of Ignatius of Antioch - On the Office of Bishop.
Chapter 6: I exhort you to study to do all things with a divine harmony, while your bishop presides in the place of God.

Catholicism also teaches that Muslims are serving the God Of Abraham.."
But
Islam is a Religion that promotes Adultery and Child Molestation.

Here Proving that The Average Roman Catholic has no need to do defending for Islam.

The Pope has Kissed His Quran, A Book that Glorifies, Revels and Lusts and Tempts its readers to ache and throb for the seXual desires of a Little 8 year old child.

The Freak Show Pope Clown is Bowing down in Adoration and Worship to His Quran and then proceeded to declare that Muslims are Serving The Same eXact God as Christians. While the next Pope Does The Same eXact Act and proceeds to pray With Muslims facing Mecca.

Christians and Gods Church are vomiting and reeling in absolute Holy and Righteous Disgust.

Proving that The Catholic Holds Up Mohammud as A Spiritual Father of their acclaimed Faith -

Spewing and Dumping out His Prophetic Revelations and Prophecies and messages as a Fact. While the Bible declares them all Liars.

Proving that Roman Catholics are Sola Quran - Regarding The Prophetic Lies Of Their Father Mohammud.

The Prophetic Lie that Muslims are Following Abraham is a Catholic Teaching and DEMAND - that was REVEALED and PROPHECIED by their Father Mohammad. And Goes against the BIBLE. In every single way.

The Pope and Roman Catholics are Pushing the REVELATIONS and PROPHECIES of their Father Mohammad and it is Causing people to be deceived and the bible has already Cleared all of this up.

Mohammud Introduced the NEW SOlA QURANIC Prophecy, *( REVELATION ) that Allah was the God of Abraham and of the Bible. Before Mohammud eXisted - This Quranic Catholic Tradition did not eXist.

Mohammud Introduced the NEW Prophecy, *( Quranic REVELATION ) That Mother Mary of Islam is the Same Mother Mary of the Scriptures . Before Mohammud eXisted - This Catholic Tradition did not eXist.

Proving that Mohammud is The Quranic Catholic Father - of this Traditional Faith. / Revelation / or Prophecy.

Proving that The Vatican Today - follows the Prophecy, Revelations and the TRADITION of Mohammud. The Catholic Church Confirms Mohammud's Revelation, That Mother Mary has an Important and Holy, Devine Role in islam. In the Quran and also in records of Visions, Prophecy and Revelations of Mother Mary - to Muslims today.
Proving that Mary is Confirming the Message of Islam. Yet the Pope still Kisses his Quran and Prays with Muslims. They believe in and worship The SAME eXact God.

AND This is what the Quranic Catholic Church Teaches.... SOlA QURAN.

Mohammud Also Introduced the NEW SOlA QURANIC Prophecy, *( REVELATION ) That He and His Followers were Descendants of Ishmael.

It is Proving that Roman Catholics follow these SOlA QURANIC REVELATIONS and Prophecies of Mohammad. The Prophecies and Revelations He received - That He was a Descendant of Ishmael, AND That Ishmaelites were a still a LIVING group of people alive at the time of Mohammud. The Prophecies and Quranic Revelations that The Ishmaelites were Given an Abrahamic Covenant by God.

The SOlA QURANIC Prophecies and Revelations that Allah was the God of Abraham. All of these Catholic Teachings are proven wrong by the Bible and Also by basic World History. FACTS.

Mohammad is A Spiritual Father of This Roman Catholic Faith.

Before Mohammud eXisted - This Catholic Tradition did not eXist. There were no Catholic or World Historical Accounts that give any claim to the Idea that There were a KNOWN people alive anywhere on Earth, at Mohammuds time - who were Proven or known to be descended from Ishmael.

Mohammud is the Father of this Traditional Faith. / His Revelation / His Prophecy was not based on Evidence or Facts, but upon a spiritual Revelation. - yet Catholics everywhere are compelled to place their FAITH on Mohammuds Prophecy and Revelations. Given by the Revelation of a Spirit.

Mohammud Introduced the NEW Prophecy, *( REVELATION ) That People can find a Salvation PLAN - in Following islam . By following a Plan that Declares that the God of the Bible is a Lie and His People are Evil and that Christ and His Bride are damned unless they Reject Jesus Christ.

In - The Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium 16, November 21, 1964. We Find “But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

Remember that - Before Mohammud eXisted - This Catholic Tradition did not eXist. Mohammud Alone - is the Catholic Father of this Traditional Faith. /

Mohammuds Revelation and Prophecy that tells that people that people can be Saved OUTSIDE of the Roman Catholic Church.

But The Summo Iugiter (On Mixed Marriages), Encyclical promulgated on May 27, 1832, #2 Tell That The Great Pope Gregory XVI, - Declares that "MISGUIDED PEOPLE attempt TO PERSUADE themselves and others ,THAT MEN ARE NOT SAVED ONLY IN THE CATHOLIC RELIGION, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.'

and The Bull of Union with the Copts', Council of Florence, Session 11, on February 4, 1442. .... the Great Pope Eugenius IV - Declares that " All OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, Jews or heretics CANNOT SHARE IN ETERNAL life and will GO INTO THE EVERLASTING FIRE, which was prepared for the devil and his angels, UNLESS THEY ARE JOINED TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH .

There are so many, many more Statements of Popes who make Demands that one Must be a Romantic Catholic in order to be saved and to serve the SAME God.

Such as - 'Heretics (those who are NOT MEMBERS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH or who DO NOT HOLD TO CATHOLIC DOCTRINE) - Worship a God WHO IS A LIAR, and a CHRIST WHO IS A LIAR.'

This is the message of the Great Catholic Father - St. Augustine, (quoted in 'Patrologiae Cursus Completus: Series Graca', by Fr. J. P. Migne, Paris: 1866, 42:207).

Could it be - That Catholics and many Protestants - Simply have no scriptures for their Faith. ?

Or that catholics hate the Bible so much they cant defend their Lies with one false god alone - So They Make a mad dive and try SOlA QURAN to Fight against SOLA BIBLICA.

REMEMBER that It does not go to show anything about how marriage is part of God's Divine Plan for humanity.

When The God is asking Catholic Bishops and Priests to be married with A FAMILY.

The Catholic Church Closes The Book and Mockingly Askes You for the passage of scripture one again.

They Love To WASTE every last moment of Time. Having You looking , search and fondle around in Your dumb bible For Something they never were interested in to begin with. This is their Ultimate glory. When it Comes to the Bible.

"Divorce and Fatherless Children is not such a Bad thing to Catholics": Divorce is a serious issue for Catholics. It takes serious time and effort to receive a divorce in the Catholic Church because the Catholic Church PERMITS and ALLOWS and sanctions The Divorce.

And after The Divorce the Catholic Church will Re Remarry You as well.

But the Bible does not Allow this. All of Your Claims are Lies. All Big Claims, that are followed by a million Lies. It is a Fact. The Catholic Church - Tells You it is OK to Get the Divorce THEN It is OK To Get Married Again.
The bible says that This is Evil.

"Every Catholic and Muslim Country is filled with Children who have no Mommy, No Daddy no Family": They do not have family values. The facts and statistics prove it.
The Catholics AND Muslims are pouring in over the borders because they have no family no fathers and home. They do not Have Family planning. No Inheritance for their Children. The Average Catholic and Muslim Mother has 2 – 6 Children from multiple fathers.

And we know that Catholics Like You, simply are not Honest. They don’t keep records, They don’t tell the truth. They Lie.

Because they are Taught to Lie by the Priests, Bishops and Nuns who Set the eXample of a bump, bump, bump and go seX life. Where Children and marriage are horrible, Evil Devolving outcomes that disrupt Gods plan in the hierarchy of Gods plans for the Leaders themselves.

Catholicism is an eXample of a total bump, bump, bump and Go seXual deviant, devilish Society when it comes to having Children. They have no Concern for Family Planning. Just taX , Mob, eXtort , Pirate and Beg and Hustle from The Evil Protestants. This is their Mentality.

The biggest chunk of the planned 2017 spending, $78.9 million, is devoted to democracy, human rights and governance programs, including supporting civic institutions.

Because the Society of Catholicism is built on total Lies that leave people in a world of complete ignorance and helplessness.

An additional $43.8 million is devoted to promoting peace and security, including counter-narcotics operations and combating transnational crime.
Because nearly everyone is on Drugs. Meth, Pot Heroine You name it.

While the Leaders set up a False RELIGION that is found No Where in Gods word. While Producing "Nothing. But seXual Secrets, seXual Lies and Hidden seXual agendas. The Entire seX life of The Catholic is a Lie.

Roman Catholics have no Bible for their Faith.": The Catholic church Produced its first second Hand Translation into Latin and did not finish it until nearly 500 years after Jesus Christ. Which There was already a Latin Bible translated already before.

It took the Catholic Church nearly 500 years after Jesus Just to produce a single Latin Bible. They never produced any Bible. Because There was simply already a Latin Bible Produced by Christians in Northern Africa nearly 300 years before that the Catholic Church Decided to even finish its Vulgate.

Then The Catholic Produced a second second Hand Translation nearly 2000 YEARS Later ! - That is 2000 YEARS That it took the Catholic Church to make a second second Hand Translation of The Bible - INTO another Language - Other than Latin.
What a total Disgraceful Blasphemous shaggy dog story Joke You are attempting to tell people here.

Nearly 2000 years to Produce a Bible into another Language other than Latin. The very first complete Bible in English to be produced by the Catholic Church was the Douay Rheims, A translation from the Latin Vulgate, which was finally completed in the early 17th century.

REMEMBER . The First Hand-written English language Bible manuscripts were produced in 1380's AD by John Wycliffe,

They were translated out of the Latin Vulgate, which was the only source text available to Wycliffe. The Pope was so infuriated by his teachings and his translation of the Bible into English, that 44 years after Wycliffe had died, he ordered the bones to be dug-up, crushed, and scattered in the river!

Ironically The Bible claims that Catholicism is not of God.

There are no Catholics in the Bible. No Catholic Saints, No Catholic Leaders and there is No Catholic God in the Bible

The evidence within My post supports My claims.
Okay, friend. There is no point in even trying to progress in this conversation, for two reasons.

1.) You make the claim, "the evidence within my posts supports my claims." Of course it does; false evidence supporting a false claim.you falsify definitions and dismiss Scripture that disproves your claim.

2.) Your inability to form clear, coherent, concise sentences is indicative of your ignorance. I am not attacking your lack of education. However, it is highly improbable that you have any knowledge of Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and obviously not Aramic, yet lack the ability to understand grammar and syntax.

Thus, it is reasonable to conclude that you have no knowledge of anything pertinent to or adds constructively to the conversation.


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Robert Pate
August 27th, 2017, 06:59 AM
Okay, friend. There is no point in even trying to progress in this conversation, for two reasons.

1.) You make the claim, "the evidence within my posts supports my claims." Of course it does; false evidence supporting a false claim.you falsify definitions and dismiss Scripture that disproves your claim.

2.) Your inability to form clear, coherent, concise sentences is indicative of your ignorance. I am not attacking your lack of education. However, it is highly improbable that you have any knowledge of Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and obviously not Aramic, yet lack the ability to understand grammar and syntax.

Thus, it is reasonable to conclude that you have no knowledge of anything pertinent to adds constructively to the conversation.


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A total and complete refutal of the Catholic church.

jsanford108
August 27th, 2017, 08:11 AM
A total and complete refutal of the Catholic church.

How?

Please elaborate, Pate. (At least you are coherent and able to be clear/concise)


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Robert Pate
August 27th, 2017, 12:24 PM
How?

Please elaborate, Pate. (At least you are coherent and able to be clear/concise)


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It has already been done. Didn't you read it? There is nothing in the Bible about a Catholic church, nothing.

jsanford108
August 27th, 2017, 02:36 PM
It has already been done. Didn't you read it? There is nothing in the Bible about a Catholic church, nothing.

I am glad to debate this with you, Pate.

I read all the false evidence and dismissal of Scriptures that Sleekbacksmile provided. And all of it that is attributed to, or presented as disproving, Catholicism is false and unsubstantiated.

Sure, the word "Catholic" or the phrase "Catholic Church" do not appear in the Bible. But, priests, Tradition, and practices of the Catholic Church do.

Let us examine the base of your argument. "Because it is not in the Bible, it is false." That is the base of your statement, "There is nothing in the Bible about a Catholic church, nothing." An absence of something does not make it false. An absence of the United States being mentioned does not mean that the United States is a false nation. An absence of germ theory in the Bible does not render germ theory false. Thus, if the base of your argument is "it isn't in the Bible, therefore it is false," your argument is a fallacy and null.

However, if you would like to extrapolate on such an argument, knowing that simple logic can destroy such a base, go ahead. I would suggest utilizing Scripture as means of demonstrating an alternate "faith" being true, in opposition to the Catholic Faith. But it will be a hard task given that both the Scripture, and history itself, support the Catholic faith being the the fullness of truth.

Robert Pate
August 27th, 2017, 03:01 PM
I am glad to debate this with you, Pate.

I read all the false evidence and dismissal of Scriptures that Sleekbacksmile provided. And all of it that is attributed to, or presented as disproving, Catholicism is false and unsubstantiated.

Sure, the word "Catholic" or the phrase "Catholic Church" do not appear in the Bible. But, priests, Tradition, and practices of the Catholic Church do.

Let us examine the base of your argument. "Because it is not in the Bible, it is false." That is the base of your statement, "There is nothing in the Bible about a Catholic church, nothing." An absence of something does not make it false. An absence of the United States being mentioned does not mean that the United States is a false nation. An absence of germ theory in the Bible does not render germ theory false. Thus, if the base of your argument is "it isn't in the Bible, therefore it is false," your argument is a fallacy and null.

However, if you would like to extrapolate on such an argument, knowing that simple logic can destroy such a base, go ahead. I would suggest utilizing Scripture as means of demonstrating an alternate "faith" being true, in opposition to the Catholic Faith. But it will be a hard task given that both the Scripture, and history itself, support the Catholic faith being the the fullness of truth.

Sleekbacksmile did such a great job I can't add anything to it.

jsanford108
August 27th, 2017, 05:15 PM
Sleekbacksmile did such a great job I can't add anything to it.

Really?! Sleekbacksmile did a horrible job. I am not being subjective here.

His points had no evidence.
He dismissed biblical evidence that proved him wrong.
He had no sense of organization, grammar, syntax, coherent thought, etc.

No. Objectively, he did a poor job. And "poor" is a very nice adjective.


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God's Truth
October 7th, 2017, 12:02 AM
. I always intended to destroy the Roman Catholic faith and to crush, devour the ideology and claims of all roman Catholicism.

While serving and loving the Roman Catholic individual person and people in great respect and thankfulness for their hard work in their faiths.

but I believe that Catholicism is so wrong and in of itself the existence of pure EVIL - and yet love Catholic people as I would my own.

I pretty much agree.

Robert Pate
October 7th, 2017, 07:23 PM
I pretty much agree.


You are far more Catholic than you are Protestant. You believe that works and obedience counts for something, when it counts for nothing, Romans 4:5.

You are going to find yourself in the "Lord, Lord, didn't we" group spoken of in Matthew 7:21-23.

beloved57
October 7th, 2017, 08:48 PM
You are far more Catholic than you are Protestant. You believe that works and obedience counts for something, when it counts for nothing, Romans 4:5.

You are going to find yourself in the "Lord, Lord, didn't we" group spoken of in Matthew 7:21-23.

Both of you are the same teaching that sinners Christ died for are still lost and condemned.

God's Truth
October 8th, 2017, 12:58 AM
You are far more Catholic than you are Protestant. You believe that works and obedience counts for something, when it counts for nothing, Romans 4:5.

You are going to find yourself in the "Lord, Lord, didn't we" group spoken of in Matthew 7:21-23.

They didn't repent of their sins, they kept sinning, like you say you do.

Sleekbacksmile
November 1st, 2017, 11:07 PM
.
the bible simply shows that there are no priests in the Church and it shows that The greek word for Elder is Presbuteros

Presbuteros is referring to older women eX prostitutes and all basic older people even the the older brother of the Protoical son is Called the Elder - The Presbuteros *.

Catholics and Muslims simply have no scriptures for their faith. Sorry !

Robert Pate
November 2nd, 2017, 08:22 AM
.
the bible simply shows that there are no priests in the Church and it shows that The greek word for Elder is Presbuteros

Presbuteros is referring to older women eX prostitutes and all basic older people even the the older brother of the Protoical son is Called the Elder - The Presbuteros *.

Catholics and Muslims simply have no scriptures for their faith. Sorry !


A faith that is not confirmed by scripture is a false faith. There is nothing, absolutely nothing in the bible about a Catholic church, nor is there any record that Peter ever went to Rome. Wake up and smell the roses.

beloved57
November 2nd, 2017, 10:08 AM
A faith that is not confirmed by scripture is a false faith. There is nothing, absolutely nothing in the bible about a Catholic church, nor is there any record that Peter ever went to Rome. Wake up and smell the roses.

Just like a faith that believes sinners Christ died for are still lost and condemned is a false faith. Its not the Faith of Gods Elect.

Robert Pate
November 2nd, 2017, 10:56 AM
Just like a faith that believes sinners Christ died for are still lost and condemned is a false faith. Its not the Faith of Gods Elect.

Where have I posted that sinners Christ died for are lost?

You are under conviction because you have never received Christ as your savior and trusted in him alone.

beloved57
November 2nd, 2017, 11:21 AM
Where have I posted that sinners Christ died for are lost?

You are under conviction because you have never received Christ as your savior and trusted in him alone.

How can u believe in Christ when u teach sinners He died for are lost?

Robert Pate
November 2nd, 2017, 01:03 PM
How can u believe in Christ when u teach sinners He died for are lost?

Christ died for you and you are lost.

Salvation is a free gift from God that must be received by faith. That leaves you out.

beloved57
November 2nd, 2017, 03:09 PM
Christ died for you and you are lost.

Salvation is a free gift from God that must be received by faith. That leaves you out.

How can you be a believer in Christ when you dont believe His Blood saves them He died for ?

Robert Pate
November 3rd, 2017, 06:40 AM
How can you be a believer in Christ when you dont believe His Blood saves them He died for ?



If that were true everyone would be saved because Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2 also 1 John 4:14, plus many other scriptures.

Oh, I forgot, you don't believe the Bible.

beloved57
November 3rd, 2017, 07:32 AM
If that were true everyone would be saved because Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2 also 1 John 4:14, plus many other scriptures.

Oh, I forgot, you don't believe the Bible.

Nothing is worser to the Name of Christ than teaching as you and many others do, that Christ's death failed to redeem, save all for whom He died, shed His precious Blood for !

Robert Pate
November 3rd, 2017, 07:43 AM
Nothing is worser to the Name of Christ than teaching as you and many others do, that Christ's death failed to redeem, save all for whom He died, shed His precious Blood for !


Here it is again. Right in your blind face.

"That he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERYONE" Hebrews 2:9.

beloved57
November 3rd, 2017, 12:02 PM
Here it is again. Right in your blind face.

"That he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERYONE" Hebrews 2:9.

You deny the Saving efficacy of Christ's Death. You teach men He tasted Death for perish anyway !

JudgeRightly
November 3rd, 2017, 02:00 PM
They didn't repent of their sins, they kept sinning, like you say you do.
Do you sin?

JudgeRightly
November 3rd, 2017, 02:03 PM
You deny the Saving efficacy of Christ's Death. You teach men He tasted Death for perish anyway !
Did Christ die for unbelievers or for believers?

If you answer believers, how does that make it impossible for those who are unbelievers to believe?

Also, whom does God want to save?

glorydaz
November 3rd, 2017, 03:01 PM
You deny the Saving efficacy of Christ's Death. You teach men He tasted Death for perish anyway !

Reconciled by His death....saved by His life.


Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

glorydaz
November 3rd, 2017, 03:15 PM
Nothing is worser to the Name of Christ than teaching as you and many others do, that Christ's death failed to redeem, save all for whom He died, shed His precious Blood for !

What you, and many others, fail to see is that redemption requires FAITH IN HIS BLOOD.


Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

You cannot separate the efficacy of the blood from FAITH.


Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Only then do we have redemption through His blood.


Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

beloved57
November 3rd, 2017, 04:16 PM
Reconciled by His death....saved by His life.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


You teach and believe that sinners Christ died for are lost anyways, right ?

beloved57
November 3rd, 2017, 04:18 PM
What you, and many others, fail to see is that redemption requires FAITH IN HIS BLOOD.

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

You cannot separate the efficacy of the blood from FAITH.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Only then do we have redemption through His blood.

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


You believe that sinners Christ died for, shed His Blood for are unredeemed. Right ?

JudgeRightly
November 3rd, 2017, 06:43 PM
You believe that sinners Christ died for, shed His Blood for are unredeemed. Right ?
We believe that Christ died to save all mankind, so that all who believe in Him could be saved, but that only those who believe will be saved.

A person has to believe to receive the gift of salvation. If that person, who has the choices of [believe] and [don't believe], and chooses the latter, then that person will not be saved. If the person chooses the former, then that person will be saved. God saves those who believe. He does not save those who don't believe.

Robert Pate
November 6th, 2017, 01:18 PM
We believe that Christ died to save all mankind, so that all who believe in Him could be saved, but that only those who believe will be saved.

A person has to believe to receive the gift of salvation. If that person, who has the choices of [believe] and [don't believe], and chooses the latter, then that person will not be saved. If the person chooses the former, then that person will be saved. God saves those who believe. He does not save those who don't believe.

Right.

The Holy Spirit calls all to come to Christ and be saved. But many harden their hearts and the Holy Spirit gives up on them.

Robert Pate
November 8th, 2017, 01:28 PM
Paul wrote, "The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation" Romans 1:16. He didn't say that predestination or rehabilitation of man's fallen nature was the power of God unto salvation. What is the power of God unto salvation? The power of God is what Jesus did to reconcile us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. And what did Jesus do to accomplish that? Listen carefully because you may never hear this again. In our name and on our behalf Jesus offered to God the Father a life of perfect obedience according to God's Holy Law. It was his life that was lived for our justification, Romans 3:26. That was not enough, something had to be done about our sins and the sins of the whole world. Jesus in our name and on our behalf atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus we have been made perfect and complete in him, Colossians 2:10. God now sees all that believe in Jesus as perfect and complete in his Son Jesus Christ. No predestination, rehabilitation or religion needed.