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beloved57
June 26th, 2017, 03:14 AM
Gal 3:24

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified*by*faith.

Now what is it to be Justified by Faith? It's one or two things #1 Its to be Justified by His Faith/Faithfulness, meaning Jesus Christ, its the Faith of Jesus Christ. #2 It's when that Justification by Christ is declared or pronounced in the conscience of the already Justified.

It's never meaning that faith is a condition we must act in order to get Justified before God, cause that overthrows Justification before God based solely upon the Person and Work of Jesus Christ , what He did for the Justified. Then it becomes justification by our works, a false gospel!

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Nanja
June 26th, 2017, 06:05 AM
Gal 3:24

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified*by*faith.

Now what is it to be Justified by Faith? It's one or two things #1 Its to be Justified by His Faith/Faithfulness, meaning Jesus Christ, its the Faith of Jesus Christ. #2 It's when that Justification by Christ is declared or pronounced in the conscience of the already Justified.

It's never meaning that faith is a condition we must act in order to get Justified before God, cause that overthrows Justification before God based solely upon the Person and Work of Jesus Christ , what He did for the Justified. Then it becomes justification by our works, a false gospel!

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Amen, nobody can do anything to get themselves Justified before God.

But we are Justified by the Faith of Jesus Christ if our sins were imputed to Him on our behalf:

Is. 53:11
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Therefore by His Obedience we are Justified / made Righteous:

Rom. 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

And those Christ has Justified by His Blood Work Rom. 5:9-10, it's revealed to each one of them in time through the Gospel when they are Born of the Spirit and given Faith Gal. 5:22.

Rom. 1:16-17
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

beloved57
June 26th, 2017, 06:57 AM
nanja


And those Christ has Justified by His Blood Work Rom. 5:9-10 (https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rom.%205.9-10), it's revealed to each one of them in time through the Gospel when they are Born of the Spirit and given Faith Gal. 5:22 (https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Gal.%205.22).

Yes and that is justification by Faith !

beloved57
June 26th, 2017, 07:12 AM
It's never meaning that faith is a condition we must act in order to get Justified before God, cause that overthrows Justification before God based solely upon the Person and Work of Jesus Christ , what He did for the Justified. Then it becomes justification by our works, a false gospel!

You see if those Christ died for are not Justified before God before they believe, and not until they believe, then their act of faith becomes their Justification before God, and not Christ alone, which is error indeed !

If our faith is our righteousness/justification, then we are justified before God by our own righteousness, which is f the law, and not the righteousness of Christ Phil 3:9

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

If you say my Faith makes me just or righteous before God, then you shall be found justified by your own righteousness !

KingdomRose
June 26th, 2017, 07:21 AM
Gal 3:24

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified*by*faith.

Now what is it to be Justified by Faith? It's one or two things #1 Its to be Justified by His Faith/Faithfulness, meaning Jesus Christ, its the Faith of Jesus Christ. #2 It's when that Justification by Christ is declared or pronounced in the conscience of the already Justified.

It's never meaning that faith is a condition we must act in order to get Justified before God, cause that overthrows Justification before God based solely upon the Person and Work of Jesus Christ , what He did for the Justified. Then it becomes justification by our works, a false gospel!

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

Wow, is THAT convoluted! Now we are to believe that the faith that will ultimately save us is JESUS' FAITH!! Oh my. And this before my second cup of coffee.:rolleyes:

Surely I have mis-read it.

I think Jesus' brother James had a few words to say about faith. He directed the responsibility for our faith to EACH OF US.

"Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith BY my works. You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith apart from works is dead?" (James 2:18-20)

I don't think James was talking about Jesus' faith. Each person must have faith and act on it.

beloved57
June 26th, 2017, 07:33 AM
How therefore should we understand a scripture like this one which seems to be saying that ones faith is counted for righteousness ? Rom 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Its quite simple Faith here is the object of his Faith, Christ. See Jesus Christ is the Believers Righteousness made so by God the Father 1 Cor 1:30
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Isa 54:17

No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.

Jer 33:16

In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.


The Lord being our righteousness is sooner or later made known to God given Faith, hence, The Lord our righteousness is the object of our Faith !

beloved57
June 26th, 2017, 07:38 AM
Wow, is THAT convoluted! Now we are to believe that the faith that will ultimately save us is JESUS' FAITH!! Oh my. And this before my second cup of coffee.:rolleyes:

Surely I have mis-read it.

I think Jesus' brother James had a few words to say about faith. He directed the responsibility for our faith to EACH OF US.

"Show me your faith apart from the works, and I shall show you my faith BY my works. You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith apart from works is dead?" (James 2:18-20)

I don't think James was talking about Jesus' faith. Each person must have faith and act on it.

evasion and rabbit trail !

Robert Pate
June 26th, 2017, 08:08 AM
Gal 3:24

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified*by*faith.

Now what is it to be Justified by Faith? It's one or two things #1 Its to be Justified by His Faith/Faithfulness, meaning Jesus Christ, its the Faith of Jesus Christ. #2 It's when that Justification by Christ is declared or pronounced in the conscience of the already Justified.

It's never meaning that faith is a condition we must act in order to get Justified before God, cause that overthrows Justification before God based solely upon the Person and Work of Jesus Christ , what He did for the Justified. Then it becomes justification by our works, a false gospel!

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

Justification by faith is a Christian doctrine. You try to mix it with Calvinism, it doesn't mix and then you wind up saying that Justification by faith is a false doctrine.

beloved57
June 26th, 2017, 08:11 AM
Justification by faith is a Christian doctrine. You try to mix it with Calvinism, it doesn't mix and then you wind up saying that Justification by faith is a false doctrine.

Rejection of Truth. You dont even believe Christ's death saves, thats not christian !

Robert Pate
June 26th, 2017, 08:22 AM
Rejection of Truth. You dont even believe Christ's death saves, thats not christian !

Justification by faith refutes Calvinism, So, you try to refute justification by faith. Why don't you just write your own Bible.

Nanja
June 26th, 2017, 09:55 AM
Rejection of Truth. You dont even believe Christ's death saves, thats not christian !

Right on!

Robert Pate
June 26th, 2017, 10:49 AM
Right on!

Wrong!

You scripture perverters cannot accept what the Bible says. The scripture says that Jesus atoned for EVERYONES sins, Hebrews 2:9.

beloved57
June 26th, 2017, 12:42 PM
Justification by faith refutes Calvinism, So, you try to refute justification by faith. Why don't you just write your own Bible.

Im showing you what Justification by Faith is and you are ignoring it, because you have no interest in the Truth !

Nanja
June 26th, 2017, 03:15 PM
It's never meaning that faith is a condition we must act in order to get Justified before God, cause that overthrows Justification before God based solely upon the Person and Work of Jesus Christ , what He did for the Justified. Then it becomes justification by our works, a false gospel!

You see if those Christ died for are not Justified before God before they believe, and not until they believe, then their act of faith becomes their Justification before God, and not Christ alone, which is error indeed !

If our faith is our righteousness/justification, then we are justified before God by our own righteousness, which is f the law, and not the righteousness of Christ Phil 3:9

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

If you say my Faith makes me just or righteous before God, then you shall be found justified by your own righteousness !


Yes, which righteousness is as filthy rags Is. 64:6. Their Justification before God is based on their own work of faith they do, or believing on Christ with their own mind, when scripture is clear that Salvation / Justification is not of works Eph. 2:9.

But the Justification Christ accomplished in behalf of all He was Surety for as their Covenant Head Heb. 7:22 from Everlasting, they were legally abjured Righteous in God's Sight, Eternally Justified! And that's before they are Given Faith in New Birth and Believe on Him in time.

Heb. 13:20-21
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

beloved57
July 8th, 2017, 11:19 PM
What Justification by Faith really is !

First of all, Justification by Faith cant apply to #1. The unregenerate, because Faith is a Spiritual Fruit 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Now, man may have faith which is the fruit of the flesh, a natural human faith, but that has nothing to do with Justification.

#2. Justification by Faith cant apply to the unjustified, in other words, one must already be Justified before God before they can be Justified by Faith.

Justification by Faith is when one who has been Justified by the Blood of Christ alone and before God based on Christ's Blood Rom 5:9 when they receive a conscience assurance of it by Faith the fruit of the Spirit.

Faith justifies the conscience with the spiritual knowledge of the imputed righteousness of Christ . God purifies our hearts by Faith Acts 15:8-9

8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
The word heart here does include the conscience, for its the word kardia and means:

lit: the heart; mind, character, inner self, will, intention, center.

kardía – heart; "the affective center of our being" and the capacity of moral preference


Faith gives us assurance of our Justification as in the full assurance of Faith Heb 10:22

Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Justification by Faith Rom 5:1 is again conscience Justification, wherein the conscience is given to know the peace it has with God, and so its the peace of believing Rom 15:13

Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Nanja
July 9th, 2017, 06:51 AM
What Justification by Faith really is !

First of all, Justification by Faith cant apply to #1. The unregenerate, because Faith is a Spiritual Fruit 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Now, man may have faith which is the fruit of the flesh, a natural human faith, but that has nothing to do with Justification.

#2. Justification by Faith cant apply to the unjustified, in other words, one must already be Justified before God before they can be Justified by Faith.

Justification by Faith is when one who has been Justified by the Blood of Christ alone and before God based on Christ's Blood Rom 5:9 when they receive a conscience assurance of it by Faith the fruit of the Spirit.

Faith justifies the conscience with the spiritual knowledge of the imputed righteousness of Christ . God purifies our hearts by Faith Acts 15:8-9

8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
The word heart here does include the conscience, for its the word kardia and means:

lit: the heart; mind, character, inner self, will, intention, center.

kardía – heart; "the affective center of our being" and the capacity of moral preference


Faith gives us assurance of our Justification as in the full assurance of Faith Heb 10:22

Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Justification by Faith Rom 5:1 is again conscience Justification, wherein the conscience is given to know the peace it has with God, and so its the peace of believing Rom 15:13

Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.



Perfectly explained!

All God's Sons, Justified from everlasting In their Covenant Head Christ Jesus Eph. 1:4-7; Rom. 3:24; Rom. 5:9 shall be given a New Heart, a new nature; be Born of the Spirit, and receive Faith [passively] as evidence that His Blood was shed on their behalf.

So God Given Faith Gal. 5:22 reveals their Justification in their mind, which from eternity already existed in God's Mind 2 Tim. 1:9, before they knew anything about it.

Hence the Faith of God's Elect Rom. 8:33; Titus 1:1.


Rom. 8:14-16

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

beloved57
July 9th, 2017, 08:44 AM
Perfectly explained!

All God's Sons, Justified from everlasting In their Covenant Head Christ Jesus Eph. 1:4-7; Rom. 3:24; Rom. 5:9 shall be given a New Heart, a new nature; be Born of the Spirit, and receive Faith [passively] as evidence that His Blood was shed on their behalf.

So God Given Faith Gal. 5:22 reveals their Justification in their mind, which from eternity already existed in God's Mind 2 Tim. 1:9, before they knew anything about it.

Hence the Faith of God's Elect Rom. 8:33; Titus 1:1.


Rom. 8:14-16

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Well stated!

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Epoisses
July 9th, 2017, 03:57 PM
Perfectly explained!

All God's Sons, Justified from everlasting In their Covenant Head Christ Jesus Eph. 1:4-7; Rom. 3:24; Rom. 5:9 shall be given a New Heart, a new nature; be Born of the Spirit, and receive Faith [passively] as evidence that His Blood was shed on their behalf.

So God Given Faith Gal. 5:22 reveals their Justification in their mind, which from eternity already existed in God's Mind 2 Tim. 1:9, before they knew anything about it.

Hence the Faith of God's Elect Rom. 8:33; Titus 1:1.


Rom. 8:14-16

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

Peter said he was elect by the foreknowledge of God 1Pet. 1:2

Paul said those whom God foreknew he predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ Rom. 8:29

The bastardization of predestination will the downfall of the Reformed gospel.

Nanja
July 9th, 2017, 05:43 PM
The bastardization of predestination will the downfall of the Reformed gospel.


The Gospel Paul preached:

2 Tim . 1:8-9
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

Epoisses
July 9th, 2017, 08:09 PM
The Gospel Paul preached:

2 Tim . 1:8-9
8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

God didn't damn people before the world began and to even hint at such a thing is ignorance on a colossal scale. Jesus always used the things of nature to describe faith where it can grow and blossom in some while it can wither and die in others. All the 400 years of Calvinist postulation cannot say for certain why one is saved and another is lost. It's a mystery known only to God himself.

jsanford108
July 9th, 2017, 09:26 PM
This doctrine put forth has two large paradoxes.

First off, the false equating of belief to "work." To say that "justified by faith" means Christ's faith, then what good is our faith? Obviously, Christ had faith. He is the incarnation of faith. This application of "justification by faith" is simply wrong. Faith is a free will act. Faith is believing. Simple belief, while being a technical "work," is more akin to an "act." No one classifies believing as a "work." This is simply preposterous.

Second, if we have no choice in faith, then what point is there in belief? If we, as humanity, have no control over "faith," then one cannot blame the "unregenerate" for a lack of "faith," since it was never imputed upon them. Furthermore, if this is the case, then the logical conclusion IS that God damns people to hell, by His own actions. If God never imparts this "faith," then the Lost are not lost by their own doing, but by God's doing. God in effect has chosen to damn these people to eternal punishment.

This entire doctrine, where faith is not an act of free will, and that God chooses people to save and to damn, is contrary to all of Scripture. It is contrary to the Words of Christ, Himself. It would render the Crucifixion and Resurrection useless. And most of all, it is illogical and goes against Truth, as well as, attributes of God/Christ.


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Nanja
July 10th, 2017, 05:52 AM
Faith is believing. Simple belief, while being a technical "work," is more akin to an "act." No one classifies believing as a "work." This is simply preposterous.


Unless a person is Born of the Spirit, his own faith he exercises in his carnal mind is nothing but a work [ergon] of the flesh that can't please God Rom. 8:7-8.


ergon, G2041:

II. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2041&t=KJV&ss=1


So that classifies one's own faith as a work!


Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Therefore, to be Justified by Faith is when those who have been Justified by the Blood of Christ 2 Tim. 1:9 Rom. 5:9, 19 have it revealed to God Given Faith Gal. 5:22 by His Spirit in New Birth Rom. 8:9.

Epoisses
July 10th, 2017, 07:18 AM
This doctrine put forth has two large paradoxes.

First off, the false equating of belief to "work." To say that "justified by faith" means Christ's faith, then what good is our faith? Obviously, Christ had faith. He is the incarnation of faith. This application of "justification by faith" is simply wrong. Faith is a free will act. Faith is believing. Simple belief, while being a technical "work," is more akin to an "act." No one classifies believing as a "work." This is simply preposterous.

Second, if we have no choice in faith, then what point is there in belief? If we, as humanity, have no control over "faith," then one cannot blame the "unregenerate" for a lack of "faith," since it was never imputed upon them. Furthermore, if this is the case, then the logical conclusion IS that God damns people to hell, by His own actions. If God never imparts this "faith," then the Lost are not lost by their own doing, but by God's doing. God in effect has chosen to damn these people to eternal punishment.

This entire doctrine, where faith is not an act of free will, and that God chooses people to save and to damn, is contrary to all of Scripture. It is contrary to the Words of Christ, Himself. It would render the Crucifixion and Resurrection useless. And most of all, it is illogical and goes against Truth, as well as, attributes of God/Christ.


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Faith is not a choice, look up the words in the dictionary.

jsanford108
July 10th, 2017, 09:27 AM
Unless a person is Born of the Spirit, his own faith he exercises in his carnal mind is nothing but a work [ergon] of the flesh that can't please God Rom. 8:7-8.


ergon, G2041:

II. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2041&t=KJV&ss=1


So that classifies one's own faith as a work!


Eph 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Therefore, to be Justified by Faith is when those who have been Justified by the Blood of Christ 2 Tim. 1:9 Rom. 5:9, 19 have it revealed to God Given Faith Gal. 5:22 by His Spirit in New Birth Rom. 8:9.

You are utilizing the blue letter bible's interpretation, rather than simply reading what is written. The Blue Letter is not the authority on the Bible, is it? Yet, it is being treated like it is. (which is hypocritical when people who accuse Catholicism of this very same thing)

Furthermore, nowhere in Paul's letter to the Romans, is "faith alone" found. Nowhere in the Bible does the phrase "faith alone" appear, except in James, where it says "not by faith alone." To imply that "faith alone" is biblical is simply promoting falsehood.

Despite all this, "faith" is a grace we receive. But accepting that faith is a human act. I can impart gifts all day long; if you refuse them, then you are acting on your own free will. Likewise, God can give us gifts, and we as humans, in our free will, can reject those gifts. Is it sinful to do so? Obviously. Since God has deemed it good to impart these things, who are we to refuse? But the fact, supported by the Scriptures, is that man freely accepts or rejects God.

jsanford108
July 10th, 2017, 09:30 AM
Faith is not a choice, look up the words in the dictionary.

As I stated to Nanja, faith is a grace. Grace is any blessing/gift that God imparts to us. However, man, in their free will, can accept or reject these graces. Accepting that faith/grace is a human act. I can impart gifts all day long; if you refuse them, then you are acting on your own free will. Likewise, God can give us gifts, and we as humans, in our free will, can reject those gifts. Is it sinful to do so? Obviously. Since God has deemed it good to impart these things, who are we to refuse? But the fact, supported by the Scriptures, is that man freely accepts or rejects God.

Epoisses
July 10th, 2017, 05:33 PM
As I stated to Nanja, faith is a grace. Grace is any blessing/gift that God imparts to us. However, man, in their free will, can accept or reject these graces. Accepting that faith/grace is a human act. I can impart gifts all day long; if you refuse them, then you are acting on your own free will. Likewise, God can give us gifts, and we as humans, in our free will, can reject those gifts. Is it sinful to do so? Obviously. Since God has deemed it good to impart these things, who are we to refuse? But the fact, supported by the Scriptures, is that man freely accepts or rejects God.

You don't have free will. Your will is in bondage to sin so that from birth you will always make the wrong decision and never choose what God wants. This is the 'will power' that you possess.

jsanford108
July 10th, 2017, 09:32 PM
You don't have free will. Your will is in bondage to sin so that from birth you will always make the wrong decision and never choose what God wants. This is the 'will power' that you possess.

If we do not have free will, then why do these verses, guided by the Holy Spirit, point to fee will and choice:

Genesis 2
Joshua 24:15
Deuteronomy 30:19&20
Ezekiel 18:30-32
Isaiah 55:6&7
Romans 10:9&10
1 Corinthians 10:13
Galations 5
2 Peter 3

Christ's Words:
Mark 8:34
Revelation 3:20

These are just a few verses that specifically declare we have free will. There are more that allude to free will, such as John 3.




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jsanford108
July 10th, 2017, 09:32 PM
You don't have free will. Your will is in bondage to sin so that from birth you will always make the wrong decision and never choose what God wants. This is the 'will power' that you possess.

If there is no free will, then the logical conclusion is that God has ordained mankind to go to hell or heaven; erasing hope itself for those pre-ordained for hell. If there is no free will, God is evil. (We know this cannot be so, therefore, logically and supported by Scripture, free will exists)


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Epoisses
July 11th, 2017, 06:22 AM
If there is no free will, then the logical conclusion is that God has ordained mankind to go to hell or heaven; erasing hope itself for those pre-ordained for hell. If there is no free will, God is evil. (We know this cannot be so, therefore, logically and supported by Scripture, free will exists)


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No the logical conclusion is that you don't see yourself as a sinner where your every thought, word and deed are corrupt. When the Holy Spirit convicts you of this and you humbly acknowledge it then you begin to make right decisions. Christians today are merely going thru the motions of their religion without even acknowledging their true condition. Jesus came into the world to save sinners and if you're not one then he can't help you.

beloved57
July 11th, 2017, 07:13 AM
See, Faith is a work, in that its an Spiritual Grace/ Fruit Gal 5:22, so it can have no other way to Justify one but in the declarative sense. See God alone is the One who Justifieth Rom 8:33

33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies.


See, Spiritual fruit is contrasted to works of the flesh Gal 5:19-20

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

And these works are done with or in the mind or heart. For instance Adultery, Jesus says its a work or done in the heart /mind Matt 5:28

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

The word heart in the greek means:

the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours

of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence

So by works of the flesh being contrasted to fruit of the Spirit, works and fruit are interchangeable denoting activities of the mind at work.

So unless we are careful to understand Justification by Faith to be declarative before our own conscience, and not an act of our mind that causes God to Justify us before Himself, then we shall error into Justification before God by our works, the fruit of our minds.

beloved57
July 11th, 2017, 07:16 AM
You are utilizing the blue letter bible's interpretation, rather than simply reading what is written. The Blue Letter is not the authority on the Bible, is it? Yet, it is being treated like it is. (which is hypocritical when people who accuse Catholicism of this very same thing)

Furthermore, nowhere in Paul's letter to the Romans, is "faith alone" found. Nowhere in the Bible does the phrase "faith alone" appear, except in James, where it says "not by faith alone." To imply that "faith alone" is biblical is simply promoting falsehood.

Despite all this, "faith" is a grace we receive. But accepting that faith is a human act. I can impart gifts all day long; if you refuse them, then you are acting on your own free will. Likewise, God can give us gifts, and we as humans, in our free will, can reject those gifts. Is it sinful to do so? Obviously. Since God has deemed it good to impart these things, who are we to refuse? But the fact, supported by the Scriptures, is that man freely accepts or rejects God.

Invalid and evasive comments conducive to rabbit trail. Not one scripture !

Squeaky
July 11th, 2017, 07:20 AM
Faith-Works-Love (By Themselves they are only principles) But together they are righteousness.

People are trying to make a conclusion out of pieces and parts. It cant be done. Faith alone won't get you to heaven. Works alone won't get you to heaven. Love alone won't get you to heaven. That is the only conclusion.

XXX If all you have to present to God is faith, YOU ARE NOTHING.
1 Cor 13:1-2

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
James 2:14
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
James 2:17-18
17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
James 2:24
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Rom 16:26
26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith--
(NKJ)

XXX You are saved by grace through faith. But that is NOT SALVATION. Faith only works through love.

Eph 2:8
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
(NKJ)


Luke 6:32-33
32 "But if you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
33 "And if you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same.
(NKJ)

xxx Some stand on faith and some stand on works and some stand on love. They are all principles, they have to be together. So many on here are argueing just one point or part of a whole. You need to understand. Faith without works or love is dead. Works without faith or love is vanity. Love without faith or works is useless. Love is NOT AN EMOTION. Love is an action.

So many are running on blind faith. They dont even know what faith is. In reality their useing trust as faith. Their different. Your faith should be in what is written, all of it. But faith alone will NOT get you to heaven. Works alone will NOT get you to heaven. Love alone will not get you to heaven. What you need is the true faith in the Word of God. If you have the true faith in the Word of God you would try your best to do the works that are in the Word. Now love is NOT a feeling but an action. And the only way to learn what Godly love is would be to do the works. That is how you learn what love is by trying to do the works. In the Word that you have put your faith in.


Rom 5:1-4
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;
4 and perseverance, character; and character, hope.
Eph 2:18-20
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone,
Eph 3:12
12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through faith in Him.
(NKJ)

xxx Do you have real faith, or blind faith?? The true faith only works through love. True love is to suffer wrongfully. Your real faith only works when you are suffering wrongfully.

Gal 5:6
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.
(NKJ)

1 Tim 1:5-6
5 Now the purpose of the commandment is love from a pure heart, from a good conscience, and from sincere faith,
6 from which some, having strayed, have turned aside to idle talk,
(NKJ)

jsanford108
July 11th, 2017, 09:35 AM
No the logical conclusion is that you don't see yourself as a sinner where your every thought, word and deed are corrupt. When the Holy Spirit convicts you of this and you humbly acknowledge it then you begin to make right decisions. Christians today are merely going thru the motions of their religion without even acknowledging their true condition. Jesus came into the world to save sinners and if you're not one then he can't help you.

Your "logical conclusion" doesn't have anything to do with my statement.

Also, I have acknowledged that I am a sinner. And with your claim that all I do is corrupt, then would acts of charity be corrupt? Would my thoughts of "wow, God is so great," be corrupt? This goes against the idea of God giving us the grace of conscience. Even atheists can do "good."

Would you say the elect are without sin? For if they sin but once, they are sinners. But this flies against the "logic" of your doctrine of election. If a doctrine is illogical and contradictory, then it is a falsehood.


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jsanford108
July 11th, 2017, 09:38 AM
Invalid and evasive comments conducive to rabbit trail. Not one scripture !

You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they do.

And it is completely on topic. You just seem to dislike the facts put forth.


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beloved57
July 11th, 2017, 09:41 AM
You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they do.

And it is completely on topic. You just seem to dislike the facts put forth.


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More worthless and invalid comments.

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Nanja
July 11th, 2017, 05:53 PM
God didn't damn people before the world began

The scriptures prove your error.


The goats were already condemned that's why they shall not believe on Christ.

John 3:18, 36
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Mat. 25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand [Sheep], Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand [goats], Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

They, the goats, are cursed because their sins were not imputed to Christ, as these His Sheep were:

Rom. 4:7-8
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


The sins of Christ's Sheep were imputed to Him Is. 53:6 their Surety Heb. 7:22, and therefore abjured Righteous by Christ's Blood according to God's Law and Justice from everlasting Rev. 13:8; Heb. 13:20; Rom. 5:9.

Epoisses
July 11th, 2017, 06:26 PM
Your "logical conclusion" doesn't have anything to do with my statement.

Also, I have acknowledged that I am a sinner. And with your claim that all I do is corrupt, then would acts of charity be corrupt? Would my thoughts of "wow, God is so great," be corrupt? This goes against the idea of God giving us the grace of conscience. Even atheists can do "good."

Would you say the elect are without sin? For if they sin but once, they are sinners. But this flies against the "logic" of your doctrine of election. If a doctrine is illogical and contradictory, then it is a falsehood.


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Many acknowledge themselves as sinners intellectually but don't truly see themselves as such inwardly. Someone with real conviction of sin who has come to repentance and conversion doesn't speak the way you do.

Epoisses
July 11th, 2017, 06:28 PM
The scriptures prove your error.


The goats were already condemned that's why they shall not believe on Christ.

John 3:18, 36
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Mat. 25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand [Sheep], Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand [goats], Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

They, the goats, are cursed because their sins were not imputed to Christ, as these His Sheep were:

Rom. 4:7-8
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


The sins of Christ's Sheep were imputed to Him Is. 53:6 their Surety Heb. 7:22, and therefore abjured Righteous by Christ's Blood according to God's Law and Justice from everlasting Rev. 13:8; Heb. 13:20; Rom. 5:9.

Those are verses that speak of faith or non-faith in the experience of life not before the world began! You are so wedded to your delusions that you can't even read properly.

jsanford108
July 12th, 2017, 08:16 AM
Many acknowledge themselves as sinners intellectually but don't truly see themselves as such inwardly. Someone with real conviction of sin who has come to repentance and conversion doesn't speak the way you do.

They don't speak logically and sincerely? That doesn't sound like conversion.


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beloved57
July 12th, 2017, 11:34 AM
The scriptures prove your error.


The goats were already condemned that's why they shall not believe on Christ.

John 3:18, 36
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Mat. 25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand [Sheep], Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Mat 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand [goats], Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

They, the goats, are cursed because their sins were not imputed to Christ, as these His Sheep were:

Rom. 4:7-8
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


The sins of Christ's Sheep were imputed to Him Is. 53:6 their Surety Heb. 7:22, and therefore abjured Righteous by Christ's Blood according to God's Law and Justice from everlasting Rev. 13:8; Heb. 13:20; Rom. 5:9.

God made wicked men for the day of evil. Prov 16:4

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Potter's Clay
July 12th, 2017, 09:37 PM
God made wicked men for the day of evil. Prov 16:4

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

You are totally right, and I appreciate that you stand up for Biblical truths. I just wanted to clarify that while God created all things, he did not create evil. RC Sproul has a great video explaining how evil is "nothing" since it has no being. Therefore, it can't be considered a "thing."
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ir6pKEV0RQ


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beloved57
July 12th, 2017, 09:45 PM
You are totally right, and I appreciate that you stand up for Biblical truths. I just wanted to clarify that while God created all things, he did not create evil. RC Sproul has a great video explaining how evil is "nothing" since it has no being. Therefore, it can't be considered a "thing."
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ir6pKEV0RQ


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This thread is on Justification by Faith.

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Potter's Clay
July 12th, 2017, 09:49 PM
This thread is on Justification by Faith.

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Sorry


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beloved57
July 13th, 2017, 08:30 AM
Sorry


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No harm done. Are you interested in discussing the OP ?

Potter's Clay
July 13th, 2017, 11:11 AM
No harm done. Are you interested in discussing the OP ?

I'll be glad to discuss the topic at hand. While I think we agree, I'll just add to your OP by bringing up John 3. Notice in this chapter, a person is born again before "believe" is ever mentioned. Furthermore, "born again" is compared to the wind. How is this relevant? We don't have control over the wind anymore than we have control over our physical or spiritual birth. While Arminian doctrine proposes that faith is prerequisite for salvation, I cannot find evidence of an unregenerate man believing in God before being born again. Furthermore, I don't see how that is logically possible as the natural man is dead in trespasses and sin. Therefore, belief has to justify one's salvation instead of belief being a condition for salvation.


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beloved57
July 13th, 2017, 11:27 AM
I'll be glad to discuss the topic at hand. While I think we agree, I'll just add to your OP by bringing up John 3. Notice in this chapter, a person is born again before "believe" is ever mentioned. Furthermore, "born again" is compared to the wind. How is this relevant? We don't have control over the wind anymore than we have control over our physical or spiritual birth. While Arminian doctrine proposes that faith is prerequisite for salvation, I cannot find evidence of an unregenerate man believing in God before being born again. Furthermore, I don't see how that is logically possible as the natural man is dead in trespasses and sin. Therefore, belief has to justify one's salvation instead of belief being a condition for salvation.


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Ok, I agree with this. So what about the points I made in the OP on what Justification by Faith is, and why ?

Potter's Clay
July 13th, 2017, 12:10 PM
Ok, I agree with this. So what about the points I made in the OP on what Justification by Faith is, and why ?

Are you asking about the #1 and #2 meanings behind justification by faith? I would lean toward #1 because to the best of my knowledge faith is described as a part of the justification process. On the surface, I don't know if I totally agree with #2 because how would someone already be justified before faith occurs?


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beloved57
October 11th, 2017, 07:38 AM
Justification by Faith Its a promised blessing !

To Justify by Faith individuals is a Spiritual Blessing God has promised to do. Lets look at Rom 3:30

Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

The Promise here is that the One God Shall Justify the circumcision[jew] by Faith and uncircumcision[Gentile] through Faith. The word shall means that God will perform this by Hs word of Promise and Power !

Gal 3:8

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

So we see that the uncircumcised heathen Gentile are Justified through Faith based upon a Gospel Promise God made to Abraham saying:

"In thee shall all nations be blessed."

The religion of man teaches that Justification by Faith is a product of the will of man, but thats false, its the result of the Promise, Power , and Grace of God, for it has been written " The Just shall live by Faith"

beloved57
October 11th, 2017, 07:42 AM
potters clay


because how would someone already be justified before faith occurs?

I have several threads on that very question. The answer is easy, they were Justified by the blood of Christ before faith occured. Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Nanja
October 11th, 2017, 05:21 PM
Justification by Faith Its a promised blessing !

To Justify by Faith individuals is a Spiritual Blessing God has promised to do. Lets look at Rom 3:30

Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

The Promise here is that the One God Shall Justify the circumcision[jew] by Faith and uncircumcision[Gentile] through Faith. The word shall means that God will perform this by Hs word of Promise and Power !

Gal 3:8

And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

So we see that the uncircumcised heathen Gentile are Justified through Faith based upon a Gospel Promise God made to Abraham saying:

"In thee shall all nations be blessed."

The religion of man teaches that Justification by Faith is a product of the will of man, but thats false, its the result of the Promise, Power , and Grace of God, for it has been written " The Just shall live by Faith"


Amen Brother!

Justification by Faith as spoken of in Gal. 3:8 is a Promised Blessing exclusively to Abraham's Seed, the Chosen Seed of Christ Gal. 3:16, 29: The Election of Grace Eph. 1:4-7, whether jew or Gentile, solely based on the Work that Christ has accomplished on their behalf to Save them from sin 2 Cor. 5:21; whereby they were Justified by the Blood of Christ before God even while being enemies Rom. 5:9-10, by His Obedience unto death; fulfilling the Law Perfectlly on their behalf Rom. 5:19b.

Gal. 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

beloved57
October 11th, 2017, 10:47 PM
Amen Brother!

Justification by Faith as spoken of in Gal. 3:8 is a Promised Blessing exclusively to Abraham's Seed, the Chosen Seed of Christ Gal. 3:16, 29: The Election of Grace Eph. 1:4-7, whether jew or Gentile, solely based on the Work that Christ has accomplished on their behalf to Save them from sin 2 Cor. 5:21; whereby they were Justified by the Blood of Christ before God even while being enemies Rom. 5:9-10, by His Obedience unto death; fulfilling the Law Perfectlly on their behalf Rom. 5:19b.

Gal. 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Amen Sister Nanja !

turbosixx
October 13th, 2017, 04:21 AM
Gal 3:24

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified*by*faith.

Now what is it to be Justified by Faith? It's one or two things #1 Its to be Justified by His Faith/Faithfulness, meaning Jesus Christ, its the Faith of Jesus Christ. #2 It's when that Justification by Christ is declared or pronounced in the conscience of the already Justified.

It's never meaning that faith is a condition we must act in order to get Justified before God, cause that overthrows Justification before God based solely upon the Person and Work of Jesus Christ , what He did for the Justified. Then it becomes justification by our works, a false gospel!

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I'm trying to understand your perspective and if I missed your point, please correct me.

When I read the bible and it tells us of those who fall short, it appears to me that it’s based on how they act. Here’s one example:

2 Thes. 3:13 As for you, brothers, do not grow weary in doing good. 14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

This passage tells us how we act determines what we will reap.
Gal. 6:7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

When Paul tells Christians, “we will reap, if we do not give up”. That language sounds to me like we have a choice in who’s will we obey, God’s or our own.

1 Sam. 15:22 And Samuel said,
“Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
as in obeying the voice of the Lord?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,

In obeying God’s will, we are justified by Christ’s blood and not our works.

beloved57
October 13th, 2017, 10:03 AM
I'm trying to understand your perspective and if I missed your point, please correct me.

When I read the bible and it tells us of those who fall short, it appears to me that it’s based on how they act. Here’s one example:

2 Thes. 3:13 As for you, brothers, do not grow weary in doing good. 14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

This passage tells us how we act determines what we will reap.
Gal. 6:7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not grow weary of doing good, for in due season we will reap, if we do not give up.

When Paul tells Christians, “we will reap, if we do not give up”. That language sounds to me like we have a choice in who’s will we obey, God’s or our own.

1 Sam. 15:22 And Samuel said,
“Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices,
as in obeying the voice of the Lord?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice,

In obeying God’s will, we are justified by Christ’s blood and not our works.

If you want to understand my point then lets in detail discuss the OP.

turbosixx
October 16th, 2017, 05:21 AM
If you want to understand my point then lets in detail discuss the OP.

It appears to me the OP presents a false dilemma. You only give two choices which, at my current understanding, are not correct.
#1, if it's based on the faith of Jesus, then everyone is saved.
#2, if it's pronounced on the already justified, then they never needed it to begin with.

I choose #3, the one you said it can never be.
Acts 2:40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”

beloved57
October 16th, 2017, 05:20 PM
It appears to me the OP presents a false dilemma. You only give two choices which, at my current understanding, are not correct.
#1, if it's based on the faith of Jesus, then everyone is saved.
#2, if it's pronounced on the already justified, then they never needed it to begin with.

I choose #3, the one you said it can never be.
Acts 2:40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”

Are you ready to review my points in the OP ?

turbosixx
October 17th, 2017, 09:29 AM
Are you ready to review my points in the OP ?

Yes. I'm curious to understand your perspective.

beloved57
October 17th, 2017, 06:55 PM
Yes. I'm curious to understand your perspective.

I posted it. What did you read ?

turbosixx
October 18th, 2017, 05:25 AM
I posted it. What did you read ?

If that's your perspective, it doesn't make sense to me.

The old law was a shadow of the new law. We are to live according to the law of faith and if we do not, we will not be saved.

1 Cor. 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

If we hold fast to the word, not if Jesus holds fast.

meshak
October 18th, 2017, 05:29 AM
In obeying God’s will, we are justified by Christ’s blood and not our works.

this reasoning seems you are conflicting your own point.

beloved57
October 18th, 2017, 06:16 AM
If that's your perspective, it doesn't make sense to me.

The old law was a shadow of the new law. We are to live according to the law of faith and if we do not, we will not be saved.

1 Cor. 15:1 Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

If we hold fast to the word, not if Jesus holds fast.

Theres no reason for us to continue with dialog .

turbosixx
October 18th, 2017, 10:38 AM
Theres no reason for us to continue with dialog .

All you have stated is your opinions without any verses to back them up. I would like to understand what's your point. If you have a better grasp on the truth, I need to hear it. With scripture to support it of course.

turbosixx
October 18th, 2017, 10:41 AM
this reasoning seems you are conflicting your own point.

Please explain.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do,

beloved57
October 18th, 2017, 10:41 AM
All you have stated is your opinions without any verses to back them up. I would like to understand what's your point. If you have a better grasp on the truth, I need to hear it. With scripture to support it of course.

Theres nothing for us to discuss ! Please leave the thread.

turbosixx
October 18th, 2017, 02:26 PM
Theres nothing for us to discuss ! Please leave the thread.

no problem

meshak
October 18th, 2017, 07:50 PM
Please explain.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do,

This is your comment:

In obeying God’s will, we are justified by Christ’s blood and not our works.

It seems like you are saying our works does not matter.

But you show the verses says obedient works matter.

JudgeRightly
October 18th, 2017, 09:16 PM
[SIZE=4]See, Faith is a work,

Question for you:

Are choices "works"?

turbosixx
October 19th, 2017, 05:29 AM
This is your comment:


It seems like you are saying our works does not matter.

But you show the verses says obedient works matter.

That about sums it up. I'll try to explain my point the best I can.

Concerning salvation, we cannot earn salvation by our works. There's only been one person that has lived a sinless life and that's Jesus. Therefore, since we are sinners we can never be "good enough" to earn salvation, that's why it's a gift.
Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,


As for why works matter. At my current level of understanding, I believe we must be obedient(works) to receive this gift. Not only a one time obedience but continue to live a life as obedient as possible. For example, when we look at this parable, Jesus says everyone "in me". These are individuals who are in Christ but if they do not bear fruit(works), they are cast out of Christ.
Jn. 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.


So works can't earn salvation but they are necessary to receive salvation and to continue to be saved. Hope that makes sense.

meshak
October 19th, 2017, 05:48 AM
That about sums it up. I'll try to explain my point the best I can.

Concerning salvation, we cannot earn salvation by our works. There's only been one person that has lived a sinless life and that's Jesus. Therefore, since we are sinners we can never be "good enough" to earn salvation, that's why it's a gift.
Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,


As for why works matter. At my current level of understanding, I believe we must be obedient(works) to receive this gift. Not only a one time obedience but continue to live a life as obedient as possible. For example, when we look at this parable, Jesus says everyone "in me". These are individuals who are in Christ but if they do not bear fruit(works), they are cast out of Christ.
Jn. 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in me that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.




So works can't earn salvation but they are necessary to receive salvation and to continue to be saved. Hope that makes sense.

Nope, you are essentially saying the same thing with OSAS believers. Your reasoning does not make sense.

It is like trinity doctrine the way you are explaining it; confusion.

turbosixx
October 19th, 2017, 04:37 PM
Nope, you are essentially saying the same thing with OSAS believers. Your reasoning does not make sense.

It is like trinity doctrine the way you are explaining it; confusion.

I didn't think I would be able to explain it very well but I in no way agree with OSAS. I see too many passages that warn Christians to be careful of disobedience so as not to be saved.

I appreciate your comments.

JudgeRightly
October 19th, 2017, 04:59 PM
I didn't think I would be able to explain it very well but I in no way agree with OSAS. I see too many passages that warn Christians to be careful of disobedience so as not to be saved.

I appreciate your comments.

Are you sure those passages are meant for Christians and not for believers in Israel?

turbosixx
October 20th, 2017, 01:48 PM
Are you sure those passages are meant for Christians and not for believers in Israel?

I'm not sure what you mean by believers in Israel?

Warnings can be found in the book of Corinthians. The book is address to Christians.
I Cor. 1:2 To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

jamie
October 22nd, 2017, 07:25 PM
I didn't think I would be able to explain it very well but I in no way agree with OSAS.



There is nothing wrong with the concept of OSAS.

However, being saved does not equate to the first resurrection.

If a person is already saved they can join others who will receive salvation in the second resurrection.

Jesus' letters to the seven churches are to saved people.

turbosixx
October 23rd, 2017, 10:51 AM
There is nothing wrong with the concept of OSAS.

However, being saved does not equate to the first resurrection.

If a person is already saved they can join others who will receive salvation in the second resurrection.

Jesus' letters to the seven churches are to saved people.
Do you understand OSAS to mean that anyone who becomes a Christian can never lose their salvation?
At my current level of understanding, I don't see scripture supporting that concept. All the letters written after Acts are addressed to Christians (saved). The language used to me indicates the very real possibility of not being saved on judgement day.

You mentioned Jesus' letters in Revelation. I agree, he is writing to those who are saved(Christians) and he mentions some who's salvation isn't in question, but there are others that will be lost if they do not overcome.

For example in Ch. 3, the language here, "the one who conquers".
Rev. 3:5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.
It looks to me if OSAS is a true concept, then once a person becomes a Christian, that's the moment they conquer.

Am I missing something?

Right Divider
October 23rd, 2017, 11:27 AM
For example in Ch. 3, the language here, "the one who conquers".
Rev. 3:5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.
It looks to me if OSAS is a true concept, then once a person becomes a Christian, that's the moment they conquer.

Am I missing something?
Yes, you are missing something. It's called the gospel of the grace of God.

The book of Revelation is completely and totally about Israel and not the body of Christ.

turbosixx
October 23rd, 2017, 01:38 PM
Yes, you are missing something. It's called the gospel of the grace of God.

The book of Revelation is completely and totally about Israel and not the body of Christ.

Hey, long time no debate :)

Jamie brought up Jesus' letters so I just used that. I see the same kind of language in Paul's letters.

For example, in 1 Cor. 9:24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. 27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

If OSAS is true, I wouldn't expect to see Paul telling Christians to "run that you may obtain it" or "I myself should be disqualified".

Thanks for your input.

Right Divider
October 23rd, 2017, 01:48 PM
Hey, long time no debate :)

Jamie brought up Jesus' letters so I just used that. I see the same kind of language in Paul's letters.

For example, in 1 Cor. 9:24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. 25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air. 27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

If OSAS is true, I wouldn't expect to see Paul telling Christians to "run that you may obtain it" or "I myself should be disqualified".

Thanks for your input.
You're taking that passage badly out of context. He is NOT making the race about "winning" eternal life.

John 5:24 (AKJV/PCE)

(5:24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


Please be the first to actually explain how Jesus could be preaching the gospel of the grace of God during His earthly ministry to Israel without ONCE using the word "grace".

jamie
October 23rd, 2017, 02:01 PM
Am I missing something?


In the parable of the ten virgins, the virgins represent believers.

When the bridegroom came some were ready and some were not ready.

The oil represents anointing as kings and priests in the kingdom.

"For You were slain and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made us kings and priests to our God, and we shall reign on the earth." (Revelation 5:9-10)

Those who were ready went into the marriage and the door was forever shut.

Jesus will be the husband of one wife. This was the pattern from the beginning.

The believers who weren't ready will be in the second resurrection.

The kingdom of God is the first resurrection.

Right Divider
October 23rd, 2017, 02:06 PM
In the parable of the ten virgins, the virgins represent believers.

When the bridegroom came some were ready and some were not ready.

The oil represents anointing as kings and priests in the kingdom.

"For You were slain and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made us kings and priests to our God, and we shall reign on the earth." (Revelation 5:9-10)

Those who were ready went into the marriage and the door was forever shut.

Jesus will be the husband of one wife. This was the pattern from the beginning.

The believers who weren't ready will be in the second resurrection.

The kingdom of God is the first resurrection.
:dizzy:

jamie
October 23rd, 2017, 02:06 PM
The book of Revelation is completely and totally about Israel and not the body of Christ.


The body of Christ is the church. Jesus' letters are to his church.

Right Divider
October 23rd, 2017, 02:06 PM
The body of Christ is the church. Jesus' letters are to his church.
:juggle:

jamie
October 23rd, 2017, 02:12 PM
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants — things which must shortly take place. (Revelation 1:1)

The Revelation is only for Christ's servants.

Right Divider
October 23rd, 2017, 02:20 PM
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants — things which must shortly take place. (Revelation 1:1)

The Revelation is only for Christ's servants.
The "servants" referred to there are Israel. John was one of THOSE servants.


Rev 1:1-3 (AKJV/PCE)

(1:1) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John: (1:2) Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. (1:3) Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

Epoisses
October 23rd, 2017, 02:29 PM
"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants — things which must shortly take place. (Revelation 1:1)

The Revelation is only for Christ's servants.

Which excludes you. You're a servant of the law and worship the works of your hands.

jamie
October 23rd, 2017, 02:32 PM
The "servants" referred to there are Israel. John was one of THOSE servants.


And we know the servants are not subject to the second death.

"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6)

Are you not one of his servants?

Epoisses
October 23rd, 2017, 02:32 PM
The "servants" referred to there are Israel. John was one of THOSE servants.


Rev 1:1-3 (AKJV/PCE)

(1:1) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John: (1:2) Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. (1:3) Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.

Revelation was written to the church! Try reading the next chapters where it talks about the seven CHURCHES!!

Epoisses
October 23rd, 2017, 02:34 PM
And we know the servants are not subject to the second death.

"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6)

Are you not one of his servants?

Jamie just randomly posts incoherent babble because her native tongue is Babel.

Right Divider
October 23rd, 2017, 02:35 PM
And we know the servants are not subject to the second death.

"Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6)

Are you not one of his servants?

Gal 4:7 (AKJV/PCE)

(4:7) Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

You are confusing two different things that God is doing and you are making a complete mess of it.

turbosixx
October 23rd, 2017, 02:59 PM
You're taking that passage badly out of context. He is NOT making the race about "winning" eternal life.

I would be glad to hear what he means within the context.

turbosixx
October 23rd, 2017, 03:05 PM
In the parable of the ten virgins, the virgins represent believers.

When the bridegroom came some were ready and some were not ready.

The oil represents anointing as kings and priests in the kingdom.

"For You were slain and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and have made us kings and priests to our God, and we shall reign on the earth." (Revelation 5:9-10)

Those who were ready went into the marriage and the door was forever shut.

Jesus will be the husband of one wife. This was the pattern from the beginning.

The believers who weren't ready will be in the second resurrection.

The kingdom of God is the first resurrection.

I agree that the 10 virgins are believers but not all 10 made it in. Those who were not faithful to the end were lost and Jesus did not know them.

What do you see as the Kingdom of God?

Right Divider
October 23rd, 2017, 03:09 PM
I agree that the 10 virgins are believers but not all 10 made it in. Those who were not faithful to the end were lost and Jesus did not know them.

Once again, this is in the context of Israel and NOT the body of Christ.

jamie
October 23rd, 2017, 03:52 PM
I agree that the 10 virgins are believers but not all 10 made it in. Those who were not faithful to the end were lost and Jesus did not know them.

What do you see as the Kingdom of God?


The kingdom of God is a family consisting of those in the first resurrection.

Most kingdoms are family based.

Epoisses
October 23rd, 2017, 06:06 PM
Once again, this is in the context of Israel and NOT the body of Christ.

This is their answer for every verse of scripture. Dispensationalists reject that Gentiles are even part of the new covenant. They are an anti-Christian cult who masquerade as Christians.

Right Divider
October 23rd, 2017, 06:15 PM
The kingdom of God is a family consisting of those in the first resurrection.

Most kingdoms are family based.
:dizzy:
Confusing man-made kingdoms with the kingdom of God is par for the course with you.

Sometimes the kingdom of God refers to the earthly kingdom of Israel, God's chosen people on the earth.

Matt 21:43 (AKJV/PCE)

(21:43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.



Luke 12:32 (AKJV/PCE)

(12:32) Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.



Luke 22:29-30 (AKJV/PCE)

(22:29) And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; (22:30) That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The LORD Jesus Christ will establish THIS kingdom when He returns with it.

Luke 19:11-12 (AKJV/PCE)

(19:11) And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. (19:12) He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.



Matt 25:31-32 (AKJV/PCE)

(25:31) ¶ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: (25:32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats:


It's all quite clear until you try to force your own meaning ONTO the Bible.

The current dispensation of the grace of God is only temporary, after which God will restore Israel just like Romans 11 says.

turbosixx
October 24th, 2017, 06:20 AM
You're taking that passage badly out of context. He is NOT making the race about "winning" eternal life.

Could you please explain what Paul means based on the context.

jamie
October 24th, 2017, 07:55 AM
Could you please explain what Paul means based on the context.


Paul means the same thing as Jesus.

"He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God." (Revelation 2:7)

Right Divider
October 24th, 2017, 08:13 AM
Could you please explain what Paul means based on the context.
The context of that passage is explained here:


1Cor 9:14 (AKJV/PCE)

(9:14) Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

jamie
October 24th, 2017, 08:16 AM
The Father did not give up on his first son whom he rescued from Egypt.

Flesh is corruptible so the Father converts the corruptible to incorruptible through Jesus our Lord.

The people of Jacob become the the Israel of God.

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. (Galatians 6:15)

A new creation, not of the flesh but of the Spirit.

Right Divider
October 24th, 2017, 08:24 AM
The Father did not give up on his first son whom he rescued from Egypt.

Flesh is corruptible so the Father converts the corruptible to incorruptible through Jesus our Lord.

The people of Jacob become the the Israel of God.

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. (Galatians 6:15)

A new creation, not of the flesh but of the Spirit.
The NEW creation is the body of Christ, not some form of Israel.

jamie
October 24th, 2017, 01:58 PM
The NEW creation is the body of Christ, not some form of Israel.


Paul disagrees.

Right Divider
October 24th, 2017, 02:04 PM
Paul disagrees.
Paul disagrees with you.

turbosixx
November 1st, 2017, 04:18 PM
The context of that passage is explained here:


1Cor 9:14 (AKJV/PCE)

(9:14) Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.



Sorry I haven't gotten back sooner, I've been busy remodeling a flooded house.

While working I've been thinking about your comments on context and I don't see how it works. Paul is saying he has a right to receive material compensation as a preacher of the gospel. He forfeits that right for a better reward.
18 What then is my reward? That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.

Could you show me from your perspective how that applies to what he says here about disciplining his body and even after preaching to others possibly being disqualified?
9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Thanks

Right Divider
November 1st, 2017, 07:48 PM
Sorry I haven't gotten back sooner, I've been busy remodeling a flooded house.

Sorry to hear that.


While working I've been thinking about your comments on context and I don't see how it works. Paul is saying he has a right to receive material compensation as a preacher of the gospel. He forfeits that right for a better reward.
18 What then is my reward? That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.

Could you show me from your perspective how that applies to what he says here about disciplining his body and even after preaching to others possibly being disqualified?
9:27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

Thanks
Since we know that eternal life is not a reward, we know that he is not talking about "winning" eternal life.


Eph 2:4-9 (AKJV/PCE)

(2:4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, (2:5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) (2:6) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: (2:7) That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (2:8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: (2:9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

If we are made to sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus, do you think that we will be kicked out if we don't "win the race"?

There is only one winner in a race. Does everyone else lose their salvation?

The "disqualification" is about service and not salvation.