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Lazy afternoon
June 23rd, 2017, 03:08 AM
What will pre-tribber rapture believers do, when they find themselves still here with the rest of us after the mark of the beast is in force.

Time is getting short now that the western powers are sure to overtake all of the middle east and make Jerusalem an international city for all faiths and start rebuilding the temple, making people believe the Kingdom of God has come, and an amazing leader to emerge, who hates fundamentalists.

LA

Truster
June 23rd, 2017, 03:10 AM
"What will pre-tribber rapture believers do".


Perish in their error and sin.

Unless they repent, trust and be holy.

beameup
June 23rd, 2017, 03:18 AM
What will pre-tribber rapture believers do..?

LA

Watch from heaven above while the whole earth accepts THE LIE (presented by the Devil, and his angels)

Lazy afternoon
June 23rd, 2017, 04:42 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lpAuj-OggA

jamie
June 23rd, 2017, 08:50 AM
What will pre-tribber rapture believers do, when they find themselves still here with the rest of us after the mark of the beast is in force.


What is the mark of the beast? How will we know it?

Lazy afternoon
June 23rd, 2017, 02:32 PM
Will be back in a few days, Jamie.

oatmeal
June 23rd, 2017, 03:08 PM
1 Thes 4:13-18 we shall be with the Lord, for we are saved from the wrath to come Romans 5:9, 1Thes 1:10. We enjoy being in the presence of the lord.

Epoisses
June 23rd, 2017, 04:51 PM
"What will pre-tribber rapture believers do".


Perish in their error and sin.

Unless they repent, trust and be holy.

Calvinists have no viable prophetic understanding so they can't even converse on the subject. Prophecy is all symbolic to them or already fulfilled in the Roman times with Nero. Talk about stupid beliefs!

patrick jane
June 23rd, 2017, 05:42 PM
What will pre-tribber rapture believers do, when they find themselves still here with the rest of us after the mark of the beast is in force.

We will be with the Lord forever

Truster
June 23rd, 2017, 09:47 PM
Calvinists have no viable prophetic understanding so they can't even converse on the subject. Prophecy is all symbolic to them or already fulfilled in the Roman times with Nero. Talk about stupid beliefs!

You bare false witness against the Eternal Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

oatmeal
June 24th, 2017, 06:47 AM
1 Thes 4:13-18 we shall be with the Lord, for we are saved from the wrath to come Romans 5:9, 1Thes 1:10. We enjoy being in the presence of the lord.

Those who are not gathered up will still have the opportunity to believe God and receive the rewards of doing so, but it will not be easy. See the book of Revelation

oatmeal
June 24th, 2017, 06:49 AM
By rapture I am assuming you mean the events of I Thessalonians 4:13-18 and the verses that tell us we are saved from the wrath to come.

the word "rapture", is it found in scripture?

beameup
June 24th, 2017, 07:15 AM
Those who are not gathered up will still have the opportunity to believe God and receive the rewards of doing so, but it will not be easy. See the book of Revelation
There will be no "sealing of the Holy Spirit" following the harpazo.
"Enduring to the end" (death or 2nd coming and rejection of the Mark) will be absolutely necessary.

oatmeal
June 24th, 2017, 07:18 AM
There will be no "sealing of the Holy Spirit" following the harpazo.
"Enduring to the end" (death or 2nd coming and rejection of the Mark) will be absolutely necessary.

Salvation will no longer be a gift.

Epoisses
June 24th, 2017, 05:05 PM
You bare false witness against the Eternal Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Preterism is not a viable or coherent understanding of prophecy. It's just dumb like you.

Truster
June 24th, 2017, 05:10 PM
Preterism is not a viable or coherent understanding of prophecy. It's just dumb like you.

He's dead now, but there was a guy named Ken who used to visit a denomination I went to when I first got saved. Ken was illiterate and considered to be dumb. The pastor was mocking him behind his back one day and laughing at him. That was until I said that I wished that I was more like Ken.

If you truly consider me to be dumb then I have my wish and I'm blessed at the very thought of it.

Epoisses
June 24th, 2017, 05:27 PM
He's dead now, but there was a guy named Ken who used to visit a denomination I went to when I first got saved. Ken was illiterate and considered to be dumb. The pastor was mocking him behind his back one day and laughing at him. That was until I said that I wished that I was more like Ken.

If you truly consider me to be dumb then I have my wish and I'm blessed at the very thought of it.

Don't get me wrong dumbness and stupidity are traits I often see in those who are truly spiritual. God doesn't give the gift of knowledge to all his children. Some of the most spiritual people I ever met were like religious gangsters or something. I don't mess with them.

JudgeRightly
June 24th, 2017, 08:46 PM
By rapture I am assuming you mean the events of I Thessalonians 4:13-18 and the verses that tell us we are saved from the wrath to come.

the word "rapture", is it found in scripture?
The word "rapture" itself is not in scripture, but harpagesometha, which means seize, catch (up, away), pluck, pull, or take (by force), is the word used translated "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170625/96aacb0c262d85e62b08f2a61066b861.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170625/7a8c77e00bed02e12ced2e82e6f6934f.jpg

The Body of Christ will be caught up, and God will go back to working with Israel, purging her, finishing what He started in Acts.

oatmeal
June 24th, 2017, 10:30 PM
One great aspect of what God has done for us and how God could have a son who completely and humbly obeyed him is our justification thus our peace with God.

Romans 5:1

We are justified and are at peace with God, God is not looking to prosecute us, His son willfully paid the price for our sins, thus we are acquitted of them.

We are free of the burden and guilt of sin, thus we should walk worthy of God who gave us these things.

Nick M
June 24th, 2017, 11:04 PM
What will pre-tribber rapture believers do, when they find themselves still here with the rest of us after the mark of the beast is in force.

You finally worded a post correctly. You are outside Christ, with the rest of them outside of Christ. Neck up in skubala.

beameup
June 25th, 2017, 12:28 AM
Pre Tribulation Rapture is, by all traditional and historical Protestant theology, a ~Joke~

Was Enoch "a joke"?
Was Elijah "a joke"?

The "joke" just might be on you.

beameup
June 25th, 2017, 12:50 AM
Protestants don't do your flimsy free will Catholic nonsense; man deciding God's will :nono:

Predestination
Free-will
Is it too much of a "stretch" to consider BOTH true?
Only those who are entrenched in Space-Time cannot think "outside the box".

beameup
June 25th, 2017, 01:50 AM
We have a free will that is unable to choose grace without the assistance of grace
The work of the Holy Spirit is to convict us of SIN
and to reveal to us the HOLINESS of God
and the FACT the Jesus Christ DIED for our SIN

What YOU do in response to that being REVEALED to you, determines your eternal destination.
1) exerting your ego and denying you are totally SINFUL will bring condemnation upon you
2) "dying" to your ego and recognizing you are totally SINFUL before God, and worthy of DEATH, will bring forgiveness and God's love


And when he [Holy Spirit] is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment - John 16:8

beameup
June 25th, 2017, 03:22 AM
I believe in a capable and fulfilling god that is not subject to human flaw and consequence. Ultimately, that means predestination- the true Gospel of Christ, as explained by Luther and Calvin,dictates that there is nothing you can do to change what God has willed. I don't know how much simpler I can put this- what free will can you exalt when you acknowledge a god that openly predestines?
If that's the case, then God cannot judge you according to your decision...
that decision that was made precisely the moment when the Holy Spirit convicted
you of sin and then offered you the only available option to deal with it.
That "doctrine" would force God to carry out annihilation on all unbelievers, in the end.
PS: annihilation is the doctrine of the Jehovah's Witnesses

oatmeal
June 25th, 2017, 06:34 AM
Pre Tribulation Rapture is, by all traditional and historical Protestant theology, a ~Joke~



by all traditional and historical Protestant theology, it may be, but according to scriptures it is a future reality that as far as God's point of view is concerned is a foregone conclusion to this age of grace.

Please read my first post in this thread, which is post 7

oatmeal
June 25th, 2017, 06:35 AM
We have a free will that is unable to choose grace without the assistance of grace

Could you supply the scriptures that you think support that statement?

Nick M
June 25th, 2017, 08:28 AM
Pre Tribulation Rapture is, by all traditional and historical Protestant theology, a ~Joke~

Since rapture does not appear in the Bible, but Paul saying the departure does, explain what he means. The man of sin is not revealed until the departure of the church.

oatmeal
June 25th, 2017, 02:48 PM
Since rapture does not appear in the Bible, but Paul saying the departure does, explain what he means. The man of sin is not revealed until the departure of the church.

Amen

II Thessalonians 2:3 "falling away" translates better as "departure"

Lazy afternoon
June 26th, 2017, 01:12 AM
Amen

II Thessalonians 2:3 "falling away" translates better as "departure"

Paul wrote that the gathering of the saints would occur at the coming of the Lord, which would not occur until after the falling away and the revealing of the son of perdition.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

LA

Lazy afternoon
June 26th, 2017, 01:17 AM
What is the mark of the beast? How will we know it?

Rev 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Rev 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev 13:9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Seems self explanatory really, whether it be buying and selling in a religious or money sense.

I think both.

Lazy afternoon
June 26th, 2017, 01:19 AM
You finally worded a post correctly. You are outside Christ, with the rest of them outside of Christ. Neck up in skubala.

Wherever I am, it will not be with you.

LA

oatmeal
June 26th, 2017, 04:47 AM
Paul wrote that the gathering of the saints would occur at the coming of the Lord, which would not occur until after the falling away and the revealing of the son of perdition.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

LA

What Paul wrote still needs to be rightly divided and the KJV is not much help in doing so.

For they confused the events described in the gospels and in the book of Revelation... with the events of I Thessalonians 1:13-18

the day of Christ is not the same event as our gathering together unto him.

The Revelation time period is the day of Christ, the gathering together is referring to I Thes 4:13-18

to suggest otherwise ignores the two verses I pointed out earlier that makes is clear that we are saved from the wrath to come.

If we have to endure the wrath, then what did we get saved from?

Jonahdog
June 26th, 2017, 06:35 AM
Interesting to watch Christians dispute the meaning of their Holy Book.

Nick M
June 26th, 2017, 04:57 PM
Paul wrote that the gathering of the saints would occur at the coming of the Lord, which would not occur until after the falling away and the revealing of the son of perdition.

Incorrect. Imagine my shock. :Plain:

Paul said the saints would depart before the revealing.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come until the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition

The saints, not you, are delivered from the great tribulation, which Paul calls the wrath to come.

9 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.



We do not go through tribulation, there is a departure of the church first, we are saved from that wrath.

oatmeal
June 26th, 2017, 05:45 PM
Interesting to watch Christians dispute the meaning of their Holy Book.

I am sure it is.

It is also interesting to see scientists, doctors, lawyers, politicians, philosophers,etc do the same thing

Lazy afternoon
June 26th, 2017, 06:52 PM
What Paul wrote still needs to be rightly divided and the KJV is not much help in doing so.

For they confused the events described in the gospels and in the book of Revelation... with the events of I Thessalonians 1:13-18

the day of Christ is not the same event as our gathering together unto him.

The Revelation time period is the day of Christ, the gathering together is referring to I Thes 4:13-18

to suggest otherwise ignores the two verses I pointed out earlier that makes is clear that we are saved from the wrath to come.

If we have to endure the wrath, then what did we get saved from?

The time of the revealing of the son of perdition is not the wrath of God. Read Rev.ch 12.

The revealing of the son of perdition is not in the day of Christ for then he is destroyed by Christs appearing to deliver His own from the power of the son of perdition.

2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

LA

Lazy afternoon
June 26th, 2017, 07:10 PM
Incorrect. Imagine my shock. :Plain:

Paul said the saints would depart before the revealing.

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come until the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition

The saints, not you, are delivered from the great tribulation, which Paul calls the wrath to come.

9 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.



We do not go through tribulation, there is a departure of the church first, we are saved from that wrath.

While there is wrath upon the disobedient living of the church before Christ returns to raise the saints (trumpets), it is not the wrath of the vials which is poured out on the living beast worshippers after Christ returns, but is the wrath of God in casting people into everlasting fire in Rev.ch 20.


2Th 2:3 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come until the departure comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition[/COLOR][/I]

The word is not departure, but is falling away.

The sons of God who fell away before the flood were in power persecuting the righteous before the flood.

The Pharaoh who knew not Joseph was in power, persecuting Israel before they departed Egypt.

We could give many examples of the wicked persecuting the righteous, and none escaped their tribulations, and only after they were faithful to God in all their tribulations were they to be delivered.

The Bible is full of the same.

2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

It is impossible that the man of sin can be exalted in the day of Christ.

Isa 2:10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty.
Isa 2:11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
Isa 2:12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
Isa 2:13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,
Isa 2:14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,
Isa 2:15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall,
Isa 2:16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.
Isa 2:17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.

LA

Jonahdog
June 27th, 2017, 04:52 AM
I am sure it is.

It is also interesting to see scientists, doctors, lawyers, politicians, philosophers,etc do the same thing

ah, but there is a difference. scientists, doctors etc are not dealing with a text allegedly provided by an all-knowing loving deity, one would think that book would be a little more straight forward and easy for all to understand.
Instead you get different basic interpretations and threads like this one.

oatmeal
June 28th, 2017, 04:44 AM
The time of the revealing of the son of perdition is not the wrath of God. Read Rev.ch 12.

The revealing of the son of perdition is not in the day of Christ for then he is destroyed by Christs appearing to deliver His own from the power of the son of perdition.

2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

LA

There are many events that will take place in the future and they will not all occur at the same time.

However, the gathering together is an event that involves the believers in this age of grace, we have been removed from the earthly events, including the the wrath, that occur in the book of Revelation and are referred to in I Cor 15 the gospels and Thess.

We will be participants in those events as "might messengers" but not the recipients of the wrath or any of the other events listed.

Like I asked, what did Jesus save us from if we still have to deal with the wrath, and for that matter, all the rest of the events that lead up to it?

We have been saved, not ignored.

Clete
June 28th, 2017, 06:22 AM
What will pre-tribber rapture believers do, when they find themselves still here with the rest of us after the mark of the beast is in force.

Time is getting short now that the western powers are sure to overtake all of the middle east and make Jerusalem an international city for all faiths and start rebuilding the temple, making people believe the Kingdom of God has come, and an amazing leader to emerge, who hates fundamentalists.

LA

I'm curious. Just was is, in your view, the mark of the beast?

Please don't do something lazy like quoting Revelation. I've read the verses. I'm asking you whether you'd know the mark of the beast if you saw it and if so, how? What is it, exactly? What does it look like?

Do you think, no - that the wrong word, do you believe that the mark of the beast is something people will choose to accept consciously, understanding that accepting it is rejecting God?

Do you believe that people choose - anything?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
June 28th, 2017, 06:52 AM
I am sure it is.

It is also interesting to see scientists, doctors, lawyers, politicians, philosophers,etc do the same thing

Not to mention, physicists, astronomers, climatologists, biologist and every other form of scientist you can name.

I love that you put philosophers on your list. Atheists very often display, accept and defend the most convolutedly irrational philosophical ideas that have ever entered the mind of man. (e.g. Stalin, Marx, Nietzsche, etc.).

oatmeal
June 28th, 2017, 09:40 AM
Not to mention, physicists, astronomers, climatologists, biologist and every other form of scientist you can name.

I love that you put philosophers on your list. Atheists very often display, accept and defend the most convolutedly irrational philosophical ideas that have ever entered the mind of man. (e.g. Stalin, Marx, Nietzsche, etc.).

Learning being a process, it is no surprise that conflicts exist in all fields of learning.

Clete
June 28th, 2017, 01:24 PM
Learning being a process, it is no surprise that conflicts exist in all fields of learning.

This is indeed true but it would seem to apply, at least primarily, to novices.

Stalin, Marx & Nietzsche weren't novices nor were they stupid. They were evil and I think intentionally so. They hated not only their own lives but life itself and their philosophies, to the extent to which they are practiced, achieve that which they hold as their highest standard - the negation of the mind and therefore, since the mind is man's primary means of survival, the negation of human life.

Clete

Right Divider
June 28th, 2017, 01:29 PM
The word "rapture" itself is not in scripture, but harpagesometha, which means seize, catch (up, away), pluck, pull, or take (by force), is the word used translated "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
That is why I never refer to it as "the rapture", but instead "the catching away".

Clete
June 28th, 2017, 01:30 PM
ah, but there is a difference. scientists, doctors etc are not dealing with a text allegedly provided by an all-knowing loving deity, one would think that book would be a little more straight forward and easy for all to understand.
Instead you get different basic interpretations and threads like this one.

Why would one think that?

Not that the bible isn't straightforward and easy to understand. It's just that men's heads are thicker than the Bible is.

But my question stands. Why would one think that a book dealing with topics as important and as far reaching as the Bible be entirely "easy to understand"?

Clete

Right Divider
June 28th, 2017, 01:32 PM
Interesting to watch Christians dispute the meaning of their Holy Book.
Interesting to see atheists dispute the meaning of anything.

oatmeal
June 28th, 2017, 02:57 PM
This is indeed true but it would seem to apply, at least primarily, to novices.

Stalin, Marx & Nietzsche weren't novices nor were they stupid. They were evil and I think intentionally so. They hated not only their own lives but life itself and their philosophies, to the extent to which they are practiced, achieve that which they hold as their highest standard - the negation of the mind and therefore, since the mind is man's primary means of survival, the negation of human life.

Clete

No they were not novices nor were they stupid. Proverbs and Psalms and other places in scripture make it clear that people will intentionally do, and plan evil.

Stalin did not argue with people, he had them murdered.

The Pharisees, and others, who diametrically opposed Jesus Christ plotted to destroy him. That was intentional.

People that evil are not going to argue politics or science or religion.

They eliminate the opposition. That is one way to win an argument.

oatmeal
June 28th, 2017, 03:03 PM
ah, but there is a difference. scientists, doctors etc are not dealing with a text allegedly provided by an all-knowing loving deity, one would think that book would be a little more straight forward and easy for all to understand.
Instead you get different basic interpretations and threads like this one.

Sorry, I did not see your post, but Pops did a good job of answering it.

God's word, as Pops said is straightforward and simple to understand for the most part, however, God's word not only appeals to the simple but to the wise and learned in the scriptures.

Just like any avenue of learning, the things obvious at face value and without deeper searching, are enough for some. But as Pops pointed out, man's head is thicker than the Bible.

Or I might say, man's ego tends to exalt itself over the God who created the heaven and the earth.

It takes humility and meekness to learn. As Paul stated, become fools that you may become wise, in other words, don't think you know it all, realize that God is a lot smarter than all human intellect put together, no one is going to fool God, so why try?

1 Corinthians 3:18-19

Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

It takes humility to realize we lack wisdom, but God is willing to impart wisdom to those who ask for it. James 1:5-8

Clete
June 28th, 2017, 05:08 PM
No they were not novices nor were they stupid. Proverbs and Psalms and other places in scripture make it clear that people will intentionally do, and plan evil.

Stalin did not argue with people, he had them murdered.

The Pharisees, and others, who diametrically opposed Jesus Christ plotted to destroy him. That was intentional.

People that evil are not going to argue politics or science or religion.

They eliminate the opposition. That is one way to win an argument.

The end of a gun (or point of a sword) is always the left's (i.e. evil's) final argument.

This is because their creed is anti-reason, anti- life (i.e. death). That's what it preaches, that's what it defends, that's what it aspires too and that's all it can achieve.

Want to know why it's a Burney Sanders supporter who attempts to assassinate whole groups of what he considers his political opponents (even if they aren't)?
Want to know why it's leftists who wail against fascism on college campuses and aren't intelligent enough to understand they're the fascists and are practicing fascism?
It is because they know that they cannot win in the arena in the arena of ideas. Indeed, they do not want to win in that arena. That arena is the realm of the mind, which is precisely the thing they are at war with.

Clete

P.S. I know I'm not telling you these things because I think you need to be educated. I suspect you already understand most if not all of this. I'm just taking the opportunity to put it out there for the peanut gallery. It's an awesome topic of discussion.

Nick M
June 28th, 2017, 05:27 PM
That is why I never refer to it as "the rapture", but instead "the catching away".

Bob Hill says "departure" based on upon 2 Thessalonians 2. Not "falling away". Because apostasy of the church means to leave it. Muslims are stoned to death or beheaded for leaving the church.

genuineoriginal
June 29th, 2017, 04:48 PM
What will pre-tribber rapture believers do, when they find themselves still here with the rest of us after the mark of the beast is in force.

Time is getting short now that the western powers are sure to overtake all of the middle east and make Jerusalem an international city for all faiths and start rebuilding the temple, making people believe the Kingdom of God has come, and an amazing leader to emerge, who hates fundamentalists.

LA
The vast majority of Pre-Tribulation Rapture believers will not recognize the mark of the beast when it is in effect.
A small percent of Pre-Tribulation Rapture believers will recognize the mark of the beast and then reject that recognition because it does not fit their eschatology.
A tiny few Pre-Tribulation Rapture believers will recognize the mark of the beast and reject their eschatology.

genuineoriginal
June 29th, 2017, 04:55 PM
1 Thes 4:13-18 we shall be with the Lord, for we are saved from the wrath to come Romans 5:9, 1Thes 1:10. We enjoy being in the presence of the lord.

The mark of the beast (Revelation 13:17) happens 3-1/2 years (Revelation 13:5) prior to the wrath (Revelation 15:1).
During that time the beast is defeating most Christians (saints).

Revelation 13:7
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
But, there are Christians that will not be defeated.

Revelation 12:11
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

genuineoriginal
June 29th, 2017, 05:12 PM
Calvinists have no viable prophetic understanding so they can't even converse on the subject. Prophecy is all symbolic to them or already fulfilled in the Roman times with Nero. Talk about stupid beliefs!You bare false witness against the Eternal Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Calvinists are neither the Eternal Father, the Son, nor the Holy Spirit.
Speaking about the false beliefs of Calvinists is not false witness against the Eternal Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

1 John 4:6
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

genuineoriginal
June 29th, 2017, 05:13 PM
By rapture I am assuming you mean the events of I Thessalonians 4:13-18 and the verses that tell us we are saved from the wrath to come.

the word "rapture", is it found in scripture?

It is in the Latin Vulgate.

Right Divider
June 29th, 2017, 05:24 PM
The vast majority of Pre-Tribulation Rapture believers will not recognize the mark of the beast when it is in effect.
A small percent of Pre-Tribulation Rapture believers will recognize the mark of the beast and then reject that recognition because it does not fit their eschatology.
A tiny few Pre-Tribulation Rapture believers will recognize the mark of the beast and reject their eschatology.
:rotfl:

Lazy afternoon
June 29th, 2017, 05:40 PM
The vast majority of Pre-Tribulation Rapture believers will not recognize the mark of the beast when it is in effect.
A small percent of Pre-Tribulation Rapture believers will recognize the mark of the beast and then reject that recognition because it does not fit their eschatology.
A tiny few Pre-Tribulation Rapture believers will recognize the mark of the beast and reject their eschatology.

Exactly.

LA

oatmeal
June 29th, 2017, 06:28 PM
The mark of the beast (Revelation 13:17) happens 3-1/2 years (Revelation 13:5) prior to the wrath (Revelation 15:1).
During that time the beast is defeating most Christians (saints).

Revelation 13:7
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
But, there are Christians that will not be defeated.

Revelation 12:11
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

As you correctly point out, there will be saints/believers in the events of the book of Revelation, but they will not be Christians.

There will not be any Christians on the earth at that time, we will have left when God brings I Thessalonians 4:13-18 to pass.

Those who did not choose to do Romans 10:9-10 will have to endure the events described in Rev, in the gospels and in other OT books.

Christians will have been gathered together unto him.

I Thessalonians 5 speaks of the day of Christ, when they shall say "peace and safety" but then sudden destruction will come upon them.

The information in I Thessalonians 4 and 5 is chronological. The day of Christ comes after the gathering together of 4:13-18

"Wherefore comfort one another with these words"

Evil.Eye.<(I)>
June 29th, 2017, 11:48 PM
What will pre-tribber rapture believers do, when they find themselves still here with the rest of us after the mark of the beast is in force.

Time is getting short now that the western powers are sure to overtake all of the middle east and make Jerusalem an international city for all faiths and start rebuilding the temple, making people believe the Kingdom of God has come, and an amazing leader to emerge, who hates fundamentalists.

LA

Speculation and nonsense. The GOoD Shepherd gives wisdom to those who call on HIM. No matter the circumstances, HE leads and guides.

As far as your anti Semite dribble, I'm sure you and the beast would be besties.

Evil.Eye.<(I)>
June 29th, 2017, 11:56 PM
Exactly.

LA

Um, the ancient eastern cells like the Coptics handled it well. Ps, they didn't convert under sword because they knew HE is GOD and not just a man.

You judge Gods people and exalt yourself in a self righteous way, every OP you make.

Get real! You are foolish to the 100's of thousands dying now as you type here.

Of all the OP's you've made, this is the most disgusting!

Truster
June 29th, 2017, 11:59 PM
Calvinists are neither the Eternal Father, the Son, nor the Holy Spirit.
Speaking about the false beliefs of Calvinists is not false witness against the Eternal Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

1 John 4:6
6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

I was speaking of the spirit by which he speaks and not the content of his post.

oatmeal
June 30th, 2017, 04:18 PM
It is in the Latin Vulgate.

Well, that may be, I am not familiar with it.

The Latin was translated from what?

Lazy afternoon
June 30th, 2017, 05:34 PM
Um, the ancient eastern cells like the Coptics handled it well. Ps, they didn't convert under sword because they knew HE is GOD and not just a man.

You judge Gods people and exalt yourself in a self righteous way, every OP you make.

Get real! You are foolish to the 100's of thousands dying now as you type here.

Of all the OP's you've made, this is the most disgusting!


You need to know Jesus Christ, so you can accept the truth.

LA

Lazy afternoon
June 30th, 2017, 05:44 PM
The mark of the beast (Revelation 13:17) happens 3-1/2 years (Revelation 13:5) prior to the wrath (Revelation 15:1).
During that time the beast is defeating most Christians (saints).

Revelation 13:7
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
But, there are Christians that will not be defeated.

Revelation 12:11
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.


I agree.

It is only a presumption that all believers will be faithful to the end and be in the resurrection.

In fact the point at which many think their pre-trib rapture is, is a cut off point to being in the resurrection at the end of the 3.5 years.

Paul made it plain what it takes to be in the resurrection at the return of Jesus Christ--

Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

LA

genuineoriginal
July 7th, 2017, 11:39 AM
I agree.

It is only a presumption that all believers will be faithful to the end and be in the resurrection.

In fact the point at which many think their pre-trib rapture is, is a cut off point to being in the resurrection at the end of the 3.5 years.
Yes, Revelation 11 shows that the resurrection happens at the end of the 3-1/2 years of the two witnesses.

Lazy afternoon
July 7th, 2017, 11:01 PM
Yes, Revelation 11 shows that the resurrection happens at the end of the 3-1/2 years of the two witnesses.

Yes, and those of the last witness are a group who no new believers may become, once the 3.5 years begin.

LA

Epoisses
July 8th, 2017, 09:01 PM
Yes, Revelation 11 shows that the resurrection happens at the end of the 3-1/2 years of the two witnesses.

The two witnesses are Batman and Superman. They work together for awhile but eventually Superman lights him up with his laser eyes.

Lazy afternoon
July 8th, 2017, 09:12 PM
The two witnesses are Batman and Superman. They work together for awhile but eventually Superman lights him up with his laser eyes.

see my edited post above.

Epoisses
July 8th, 2017, 09:13 PM
see my edited post above.

I was just joking. The two witnesses will be real end-time saints not Eli and Moishe the imposters.

Lazy afternoon
July 9th, 2017, 02:57 AM
I was just joking. The two witnesses will be real end-time saints not Eli and Moishe the imposters.

exactly.

genuineoriginal
July 11th, 2017, 02:03 PM
Yes, and those of the last witness are a group who no new believers may become, once the 3.5 years begin.

LA
Not at all.
The Bible states exactly when it will be too late to become a Christian believer who is a member of the body of Christ.
It is when the seventh angel sounds the last trump.

Revelation 10:5-7King James Version (KJV)
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

That happens after the 3-1/2 years.

Lazy afternoon
July 11th, 2017, 05:24 PM
Not at all.
The Bible states exactly when it will be too late to become a Christian believer who is a member of the body of Christ.
It is when the seventh angel sounds the last trump.

Revelation 10:5-7King James Version (KJV)
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

That happens after the 3-1/2 years.

What I had said, is correct, supported by Rev.11:1-2 and the door shut to the unwise virgins.

Many believe before they become Christ-ins.

Some people on this board are testament to that.

LA

genuineoriginal
July 12th, 2017, 09:35 PM
What I had said, is correct, supported by Rev.11:1-2 and the door shut to the unwise virgins.

Many believe before they become Christ-ins.

Some people on this board are testament to that.

LA

Revelation 11 shows a 42 month period of time when Jerusalem is under Gentile control, followed by 1260 days of the time of the two witnesses, then 3 days after the witnesses are killed, then the Resurrection.
The Resurrection of the dead, incorrectly named the "Rapture" happens at the end of the time of the two witnesses, not before.

Lazy afternoon
July 13th, 2017, 01:02 AM
Revelation 11 shows a 42 month period of time when Jerusalem is under Gentile control, followed by 1260 days of the time of the two witnesses, then 3 days after the witnesses are killed, then the Resurrection.
The Resurrection of the dead, incorrectly named the "Rapture" happens at the end of the time of the two witnesses, not before.

Jerusalem is trampled under foot the same time as the 2 witnesses.

Yes the rapture occurs after the witness is over, but to be in the witness one must be included in them at the beginning of the 3.5 years and none can enter after the beginning of it.

LA