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Jacob
June 22nd, 2017, 01:42 PM
Shalom.

In Judaism there was an expectation of the coming of the Messiah. This is Yeshua.

Shalom.

Jacob

chair
June 22nd, 2017, 01:59 PM
Jacob,

What was the Jewish expectation of the Messiah?

Jacob
June 22nd, 2017, 02:03 PM
Jacob,

What was the Jewish expectation of the Messiah?
Shalom.

That Messiah would come.

Shalom.

Jacob

chair
June 22nd, 2017, 02:12 PM
Shalom.

That Messiah would come.

Shalom.

Jacob

..and what was the Messiah expected to accomplish?

Nang
June 22nd, 2017, 02:19 PM
..and what was the Messiah expected to accomplish?



The promise of His coming was to crush the head (power) of Satan. Genesis 3:15

Problem is, Jews deny there is a Satan.

So Jews have no basis upon which to recognize the Messiah that fulfilled the promise. (Hebrews 2:14-15)

Jacob
June 22nd, 2017, 02:34 PM
..and what was the Messiah expected to accomplish?Shalom.

I do not know.

Shalom.

Jacob

daqq
June 22nd, 2017, 09:14 PM
Jacob,

What was the Jewish expectation of the Messiah?


..and what was the Messiah expected to accomplish?


Shalom.

I do not know.

Shalom.

Jacob

Pretty sure that one of the greater expectations was that the Anointed One would expound the Torah to supernal fullness, so that we might walk it in uprightness and truth, being pleasing to the Father.

iamaberean
June 23rd, 2017, 02:56 AM
Shalom.

In Judaism there was an expectation of the coming of the Messiah. This is Yeshua.

Shalom.

Jacob

Messiah has come and the Jews rejected him.

Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
These converted Jews never lived in Egypt where all of Israel had been under bondage.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Joh 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
Joh 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
These Jews were of Abraham but not of Judea.

Joh 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Joh 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
These Jews that rejected Jesus were converted Jews.

Joh 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
Joh 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
Joh 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Joh 8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
Joh 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
Joh 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Joh 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
Joh 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
Joh 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
Joh 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

The Jews of today must accept the fact that Yeshua has already come as their Savior. This is known by Christians.

beameup
June 23rd, 2017, 03:02 AM
Shalom.

In Judaism there was an expectation of the coming of the Messiah. This is Yeshua.

Shalom.

Jacob

His plan for National Israel was not fulfilled (gee, I wonder why?) ...but will be at the "Day of the LORD".
His greater plan for mankind (adam) was fulfilled.

Truster
June 23rd, 2017, 03:14 AM
Shalom.

I do not know.

Shalom.

Jacob

In which case He has not accomplished His mission in you unto salvation, but He will be honoured through your destruction.

There are a few millstones on eBay.

Jacob
June 23rd, 2017, 01:13 PM
In which case He has not accomplished His mission in you unto salvation, but He will be honoured through your destruction.

There are a few millstones on eBay.

Shalom.

Jacob

chair
June 24th, 2017, 12:56 PM
Does anybody here read the Bible?

daqq
June 24th, 2017, 06:02 PM
Does anybody here read the Bible?

Your question to Jacob concerned the Jewish expectation(s) of the Messiah. I answered from that perspective accordingly because that particular expectation is indeed found in many places in the ancient writings. The most important thing was that Messiah would come and fully expound the Torah so that it might be fully understood by the people. And that, by the way, is exactly what the Messiah did.

chair
June 24th, 2017, 09:43 PM
Your question to Jacob concerned the Jewish expectation(s) of the Messiah. I answered from that perspective accordingly because that particular expectation is indeed found in many places in the ancient writings. The most important thing was that Messiah would come and fully expound the Torah so that it might be fully understood by the people. And that, by the way, is exactly what the Messiah did.

What is your source for this?
I suggest that you read Isaiah 11. The entire chapter.

daqq
June 24th, 2017, 10:30 PM
What is your source for this?
I suggest that you read Isaiah 11. The entire chapter.

Not only have I read Isaiah 11 but studied it many times. I suggest you learn it by way of the doctrines, parables, teachings, and Testimony of the Messiah, rather than simply reading it. As for sources there are many, as I said, and no doubt you already know of plenty yourself.

Try the following page as merely an example and pay special attention to the sections I will quote below, (I do not necessarily agree with everything the author of the page proposes).


(Genesis 49:11 Binding his foal to the vine, and his ***’s colt to the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes; ) The Rabbis interpreted: ‘I,’ [said God], ‘am bound to the vine and the choice vine . HIS FOAL AND HIS COLT intimate: when he will come of whom it is written, Lowly, and riding upon an ***, even upon a colt the foal of an *** (Zech. IX, 9).[5] HE WASHETH HIS GARMENTS IN WINE, intimates that he [the Messiah] will compose for them words of Torah[6]; AND HIS VESTURE IN THE BLOOD OF GRAPES-that he will restore to them their errors.[7] R. Hanin said: Israel will not require the teaching of the royal Messiah in the future, for it says, Unto him shall the nations seek (Isa. XI, 10), but not Israel.[8] If so, for what purpose will the royal Messiah come, and what will he do? He will Come to assemble the exiles of Israel and to give them [the Gentiles] thirty precepts, as it says, And I said unto them: ye think good, give me my hire; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my hire thirty pieces of silver (Zech. XI, 12).
Footnotes:
(5) Sc. the Messiah. It will then be seen how God is knit (‘bound’) to Israel.
(6) Propound new meanings and interpretations of the Torah.
(7) He will point out where they have misunderstood the Torah. v. infra. XCIX, 8 on this verse.
(8) For Israel will receive its teaching direct from God.
(Genesis 98:9, Soncino Midrash Rabbah, CD-ROM, Davka Corp.)
http://juchre.org/articles/torah.htm



(Leviticus 7:11-12 And this is the Torah of the sacrifice of peace offerings, which he shall offer to the Lord. If he offers it for a thanksgiving, then he shall offer with the sacrifice of thanksgiving unleavened cakes mixed with oil, and unleavened wafers anointed with oil, and cakes mixed with oil, of fine flour, fried.) R. Phinehas and R. Levi and R. Johanan said in the name of R. Menahem of Gallia: In the Time to Come all sacrifices will be annulled, but that of thanksgiving will not be annulled, and all prayers will be annulled, but [that of] Thanksgiving will not be annulled. (Leviticus 9:7, Soncino Midrash Rabbah, CD-ROM, Davka Corp.)
http://juchre.org/articles/torah.htm



(Ecclesiastes 11:8 And if many years lives a man, let him rejoice in them all; yet let him remember the days of darkness; for they shall be many. All that comes is vanity.) The Torah which a man learns in this world IS VANITY in comparison with the Torah [which will be learnt in the days] of the Messiah. (Ecclesiaste 11:7, Soncino Midrash Rabbah, CD-ROM, Davka Corp.)
http://juchre.org/articles/torah.htm



1. "In the future the Holy One, blessed be He,... will expound to [the pious] the meanings of a new Tora which He will give them through the Messiah." (Alphabet Midrash of Rabbi Akiva) 2. [The new Tora] "means the secrets and mysteries of the Tora which have remained hidden until now. It does not refer to another Tora, heaven forfend, for surely the Tora which He gave us through Moses our Master, peace be upon him, is the eternal Tora; but the revelation of her hidden secrets is called 'new Tora.'" (Midrash Talpiyot)

3. "In the future the Holy One, blessed be He, will seat the Messiah in the supernal Yeshiva ["House of Study"], and they will call him 'the Lord,' just as they call the Creator.... And the Messiah will sit in the Yeshiva, and all those who walk on earth will come and sit before him to hear a new Tora and new commandments and the deep wisdom which he teaches Israel... [A]nd the Holy One, blessed be He, will reveal... rules of life, rules of peace, rules of alertness, rules of purity, rules of abstinence, rules of piety, rules of charity.... And no person who hears a teaching from the mouth of the Messiah will ever forget it, for the Holy One, blessed be He, will reveal Himself in the House of Study of the Messiah, and will pour his Holy Spirit upon all those who walk the earth, and His Holy Spirit will be upon each and every one. And each one in His House of Study will understand the Halakhot [laws, rules] on his own, the Midrashot [studies, interpretations, legends] on his own, the Tosafot [annotations, often referring to the 12th-14th-century commentaries on the Talmud and Rashi] on his own, the Aggadot [stories, folk tales] on his own, the traditions on his own, and each one of them will know on his own.... And even the slaves and the slave-women of Israel who were bought for money from the nations of the world, the Holy Spirit will rest upon them, and they will expound on their own." ([I]The Messiah Texts by Raphael Patai, Yemenite midrash)
http://juchre.org/articles/torah.htm

beameup
June 24th, 2017, 10:32 PM
May I suggest reading Isaiah 52:13 - 53:12 for Messiah's accomplishments so far.
Isaiah 54 would be yet future in regards to Israel:
For a small moment have I forsaken thee;
but with great mercies will I gather thee.
In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment;
but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee,
saith the LORD thy Redeemer. - Isaiah 54:7-8

chair
June 24th, 2017, 10:41 PM
Not only have I read Isaiah 11 but studied it many times. I suggest you learn it by way of the doctrines, parables, teachings, and Testimony of the Messiah, rather than simply reading it. As for sources there are many, as I said, and no doubt you already know of plenty yourself.
...

parable and explain away as much as you like. With Jewish sources and Christian sources. The plain text of Isaiah 11 is clear about what the Messiah will do. And Jesus didn't do it.

beameup
June 24th, 2017, 11:03 PM
parable and explain away as much as you like. With Jewish sources and Christian sources. The plain text of Isaiah 11 is clear about what the Messiah will do. And Jesus didn't do it.

See my above post, re: Isaiah 52:13-53:12 and the yet future Isaiah 54.
Note the approx. 2,000 year "gap" between fulfillment.
A prophecy postponed doesn't mean a prophecy unfulfilled.


For a small moment (2,000 yrs. is but a "moment" in God's eyes) have I forsaken thee [Israel]; but with great mercies will I gather thee [Israel]. In a little wrath I hid my face from thee [Israel] for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee [Israel], saith the LORD thy Redeemer. - Isaiah 54:7-8

Psalm 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.

Nick M
June 24th, 2017, 11:06 PM
..and what was the Messiah expected to accomplish?

The restoration of Israel. Ousting the heathen occupiers (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/roman-rule-63bce-313ce). Never again will they be two, ruled by the Son of David.

daqq
June 24th, 2017, 11:07 PM
parable and explain away as much as you like. With Jewish sources and Christian sources. The plain text of Isaiah 11 is clear about what the Messiah will do. And Jesus didn't do it.

To those without all things are given in parables. If I have a hundred children I live a thousand years in ten through them, (because I speak not physical offspring but of doctrine). You may look for the rest of your physical life for what it is you hope for according to a physical understanding; but it will never come because the kingdom of Elohim is within you, (Luke 17:20,21). You might as well be sitting at the feet of Judas the Galilean rebel, (circa 7-8CE).

chair
June 25th, 2017, 12:23 AM
To those without all things are given in parables. If I have a hundred children I live a thousand years in ten through them, (because I speak not physical offspring but of doctrine). You may look for the rest of your physical life for what it is you hope for according to a physical understanding; but it will never come because the kingdom of Elohim is within you, (Luke 17:20,21). You might as well be sitting at the feet of Judas the Galilean rebel, (circa 7-8CE).

I know this makes sense to you, but to me it doesn't mean anything. And don't bother quoting some verse that says I'm "blind". I've been down that path.

daqq
June 25th, 2017, 01:27 AM
I know this makes sense to you, but to me it doesn't mean anything. And don't bother quoting some verse that says I'm "blind". I've been down that path.

Lol, why would I when I have already quoted your own sages and you apparently do not even believe them?

chair
June 25th, 2017, 03:33 AM
Lol, why would I when I have already quoted your own sages and you apparently do not even believe them?

You picked sources that talk about the Messiah teaching Torah. Something that many Rabbis over the generations did, by the way- that does not make all Rabbis into Messiahs.

Meanwhile, you ignore the physical things that the Messiah is supposed to do. Except that one of them sneaked into your first source (from the commentary on Genesis)- ingathering of exiles.

iamaberean
June 25th, 2017, 07:37 AM
I know this makes sense to you, but to me it doesn't mean anything. And don't bother quoting some verse that says I'm "blind". I've been down that path.
Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Jacob
June 25th, 2017, 08:21 AM
AKA Christianity

Unless, like the Muslims, you are calling Jesus merely a prophet and not God Incarnate :Plain:
Shalom.

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. He is the Messiah. He is the Prophet foretold.

Shalom.

Jacob

iamaberean
June 25th, 2017, 08:21 AM
The expectation of the coming of the Messiah in Judaism was fulfilled in Yeshua.

When Jesus came most of God's people in the land of Israel were of the Judea tribe and they were the focus of his ministry. By the time of his death he told his disciples to:
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Mat 10:6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

The house of Israel did not apply to Jews, who are of tribe of Judea.

Paul went to the Gentiles and the Disciples went to the lost house of Israel.

The Jews will eventually have their eyes opened and they will also accept Jesus as their Redeemer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sAGeIbu2ss

iamaberean
June 26th, 2017, 06:01 PM
Does anybody here read the Bible?

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

daqq
June 26th, 2017, 07:40 PM
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

But there is a time frame set upon that Word, Isa 6:11-13, "Then said I, how long, Adonai? And He answered, Until the cities be wasted, without inhabitant, and the houses without the adam, and the land be utterly desolate: and [until] Elohim shall have removed the adam far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land. But in it shall be a tenth, and it shall turn, and shall be for consuming; [or a consuming fire] as a strong tree, even as an oak, whose stump remains when they are felled: the holy seed is in the stump!"

Likewise, Jer 4:21-28 is relevant, "How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the shofar? For My people is foolish, they have not known Me; they are sottish children, and they have no understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge. I beheld the land, and behold, it was formless and void; and I beheld the heavens, and there was no light. I beheld the mountains, and behold, they trembled, and all the hills rumbled to and fro. I watched, and behold, there was not an adam, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I watched, and behold, the fruitful place was a desert-wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the Presence of the LORD, by His furious passion. For thus has the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet I will not make a full end. For this shall the land mourn, and the heavens above shall be blackened out; for I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and I will not repent, neither will I turn back from it."

What is necessary is for one to understand that every person is likened to a house, a house with its household "members", and its lands, (both the eretz-outer bounds commons-profane, and the adamah-soil of the heart), and its fields, with both wheat and tares, and even a vineyard: and likewise every man is likened to a tree, with all its branches, wherein the fowls of the air come and make their nests, (lol). And when the tree is become fully corrupted there is but one decree for the corrupt tree, (Dan 4:13,14,15,16,17).

Now therefore, if one has leprosy in the walls of his house, the man must be removed from the house, (so that what is inside the house not be made unclean, Lev 14:34,35,36,37,38). :chuckle: