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Jacob
June 21st, 2017, 08:08 PM
Shalom.

The Torah is Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

Discuss anything from the Torah.

Shalom.

Jacob

daqq
June 21st, 2017, 08:18 PM
Shalom.

The Torah is Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

Discuss anything from the Torah.

Shalom.

Jacob

Exodus 20:5 KJV
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Exodus 34:7 KJV
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Numbers 14:18 KJV
18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Deuteronomy 5:9 KJV
9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

Deuteronomy 24:16 KJV
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

How do you resolve the apparent discrepancy?
Do the Prophets help explain? :)

Jacob
June 21st, 2017, 08:29 PM
Exodus 20:5 KJV
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Exodus 34:7 KJV
7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Numbers 14:18 KJV
18 The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Deuteronomy 5:9 KJV
9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

Deuteronomy 24:16 KJV
16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

How do you resolve the apparent discrepancy?
Do the Prophets help explain? :)
Shalom.

The last one is about father and son in regard to each their individual sin. The first four are about how the punishment for sins is to the third and fourth generation.

Shalom.

Jacob

daqq
June 21st, 2017, 08:56 PM
Shalom.

The last one is about father and son in regard to each their individual sin. The first four are about how the punishment for sins is to the third and fourth generation.

Shalom.

Jacob

Shalom

So are you suggesting there is a "generational curse" to the third and fourth generation?

Jacob
June 21st, 2017, 09:04 PM
Shalom

So are you suggesting there is a "generational curse" to the third and fourth generation?

Shalom.

Is the word curse used?

Shalom.

Jacob

daqq
June 21st, 2017, 09:52 PM
Shalom.

Is the word curse used?

Shalom.

Jacob

Nope, the word "curse" is not used. But some people teach a "generational curse" from those passages. I was just wondering if that is what you were suggesting.

So then, what do you mean by the following statement which you made?

"The first four are about how the punishment for sins is to the third and fourth generation."

Third and fourth generation of what?

Jacob
June 22nd, 2017, 11:23 AM
Nope, the word "curse" is not used. But some people teach a "generational curse" from those passages. I was just wondering if that is what you were suggesting.

So then, what do you mean by the following statement which you made?

"The first four are about how the punishment for sins is to the third and fourth generation."

Third and fourth generation of what?
Shalom.

Is it a certain kind of sin or all sin? A generation here would be like from father to son, and this may involve more than the effects of sin, and the punishment for sin, but also the influence of sin that brought it about. However, repentance is always important. Repent of your sin, and possibly of family or generational sin. Repentance of family or generational sin should take place if there is family or generational sin. You are always responsible for your own sin, there is family or generational sin that may need to be accounted for, there may be some kind of need for shared responsibility for sin that is shared or even passed down, etc.... Repentance that is diligent may be required. By this I mean that to repent of all sin is required, it is a must, and as you repent more of what you need to repent of may be revealed. Repent of your sin, family or generational sin, and pray for others that they would be forgiven. They must repent as well. The first and fourth verse of those that you shared say of those that hate Me, and Me is God from the uppercase so it is talking about those who hate God, and that is what is going on in those verses and possibly in the second and third verse as well if they are talking about the same thing. See Exodus 20:6 and Deuteronomy 5:10 for the lovingkindness that God shows to those who love Him and keep His commandments.



Exodus 20:6
Deuteronomy 5:10


Exodus 20:6 KJV - 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Deuteronomy 5:10 KJV - 10 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

Do you have anything from the Prophets or were you wondering what I think? I own a TaNaKh but I do not have it with me. To what if anything might we be able to refer? I do have a Bible. I do not have a verse or reference, but what do we see of Israel's Kings and the People of Israel perhaps? I do know that there is much rejoicing when leaders of a nation such as Israel of which I am a part and the United States of America of which I am a citizen, when they obey God's commandments. We should all do this. That is, we should all obey God's commandments. We should all love God and keep His commandments. May God bless you when you do, even as He has promised that He will do.

Shalom.

Jacob

daqq
June 24th, 2017, 07:36 PM
Do you have anything from the Prophets or were you wondering what I think? I own a TaNaKh but I do not have it with me. To what if anything might we be able to refer? I do have a Bible. I do not have a verse or reference, but what do we see of Israel's Kings and the People of Israel perhaps? I do know that there is much rejoicing when leaders of a nation such as Israel of which I am a part and the United States of America of which I am a citizen, when they obey God's commandments. We should all do this. That is, we should all obey God's commandments. We should all love God and keep His commandments. May God bless you when you do, even as He has promised that He will do.

Shalom.

Jacob

Shalom, yes, there are many things from Prophets and Writings, for starters:
Proverbs 30:11-14, (these are four generations of one man).
Ezekiel 18:1-20, (every man shall die for his own iniquity).
Isaiah 1:1, (four generations: Uzziah, Yotham, Ahaz, Hezekiah), Re: Isaiah 14:28-32.
Matthew 12:39-45, (all four generations of a man are mentioned).
Luke 11:29-32, (all four generations of a man are mentioned).
Daniel 2:31-37, 38, Daniel 4:3, 4-37, Daniel 7:2-7.

All of these have to do with the four "generations" of the first "age" of the man.
In the "age to come", (Olam Haba), the new man in Messiah will consider it perfectly. :)

Jacob
June 25th, 2017, 07:02 AM
Shalom, yes, there are many things from Prophets and Writings, for starters:
Proverbs 30:11-14, (these are four generations of one man).
Ezekiel 18:1-20, (every man shall die for his own iniquity).
Isaiah 1:1, (four generations: Uzziah, Yotham, Ahaz, Hezekiah), Re: Isaiah 14:28-32.
Matthew 12:39-45, (all four generations of a man are mentioned).
Luke 11:29-32, (all four generations of a man are mentioned).
Daniel 2:31-37, 38, Daniel 4:3, 4-37, Daniel 7:2-7.

All of these have to do with the four "generations" of the first "age" of the man.
In the "age to come", (Olam Haba), the new man in Messiah will consider it perfectly. :)

Shalom.

I respectfully disagree with your post. Also, you posted on Shabbat, the Sabbath, when I do not post.

Shalom.

Jacob

daqq
June 25th, 2017, 07:53 AM
Shalom.

I respectfully disagree with your post. Also, you posted on Shabbat, the Sabbath, when I do not post.

Shalom.

Jacob

My Shabbat is first and foremost the seventh hour of every day, which in the Greek texts are called the Sabbasin, (and the seventh hour of the seventh day is a Shabbat in its Shabbat, as it is written in the Torah). However that is not the seventh hour on a sundial, such as the sundial of Ahaz, but rather the seventh in the shabuim prayer times, (which are seven hours in a day, a week indeed, but commence with the third hour of the day thereby making the seventh hour the same as the tenth hour on the sundial, lol), but I do not expect that you will understand or agree with any of these things either. :)

daqq
June 25th, 2017, 08:26 AM
My Shabbat is first and foremost the seventh hour of every day, which in the Greek texts are called the Sabbasin, (and the seventh hour of the seventh day is a Shabbat in its Shabbat, as it is written in the Torah). However that is not the seventh hour on a sundial, such as the sundial of Ahaz, but rather the seventh in the shabuim prayer times, (which are seven hours in a day, a week indeed, but commence with the third hour of the day thereby making the seventh hour the same as the tenth hour on the sundial, lol), but I do not expect that you will understand or agree with any of these things either. :)

Numbers 28:10 YLT
10 the burnt-offering of the sabbath in its sabbath, besides the continual burnt-offering and its libation.

And no amount of transfibulating with other translations is going to change what it says because I know that is what it says in the Hebrew text. What therefore is a Shabbat in its Shabbat if not the seventh hour of the seventh day? You might want to answer that for yourself as opposed to ignoring it and pretending as if that is not what it says. As for myself it has already been answered around these parts a number times on different occasions. :)

Jacob
June 25th, 2017, 08:26 AM
My Shabbat is first and foremost the seventh hour of every day, which in the Greek texts are called the Sabbasin, (and the seventh hour of the seventh day is a Shabbat in its Shabbat, as it is written in the Torah). However that is not the seventh hour on a sundial, such as the sundial of Ahaz, but rather the seventh in the shabuim prayer times, (which are seven hours in a day, a week indeed, but commence with the third hour of the day thereby making the seventh hour the same as the tenth hour on the sundial, lol), but I do not expect that you will understand or agree with any of these things either. :)Shalom.

The first six days of the week are evening and morning each day, Rishon, Sheni, Shlishli, Revi'i, Chamishi, Shishi. Shabbat is the seventh day of the week.

Shalom.

Jacob

daqq
June 25th, 2017, 08:36 AM
Shalom.

The first six days of the week are evening and morning each day, Rishon, Sheni, Shlishli, Revi'i, Chamishi, Shishi. Shabbat is the seventh day of the week.

Shalom.

Jacob

Do you suppose that Elohim took six twenty-four days to speak the Word you read in the first chapter of Genesis? Did He wait twelve hours every night for darkness to pass before He spoke the next lines for each successive day? And what about Genesis 2:4 which states that He made heavens and earth IN A DAY? Have they not taught you that a yom may also be an hour? Perhaps they cannot teach you what they neither know nor understand? Every hour wanes and waxes: evening and morning, (for the bottom of the hour is the evening and the evening come first). :)

Jacob
June 25th, 2017, 08:42 AM
Do you suppose that Elohim took six twenty-four days to speak the Word you read in the first chapter of Genesis? Did He wait twelve hours every night for darkness to pass before He spoke the next lines for each successive day? And what about Genesis 2:4 which states that He made heavens and earth IN A DAY? Have they not taught you that a yom may also be an hour? Perhaps they cannot teach you what they neither know nor understand? Every hour wanes and waxes: evening and morning, (for the bottom of the hour is the evening and the evening come first). :)
Shalom.

I do not know what you are talking about. There are twelve hours in the day.

Shalom.

Jacob

daqq
June 25th, 2017, 08:48 AM
Shalom.

I do not know what you are talking about. There are twelve hours in the day.

Shalom.

Jacob

Twelve yamim-hours in a full yom-day. And read Numbers 7 if you wish to know why; for each prince of each tribe offered the korban for his tribe in his own day, in the day wherein the altar was dedicated, yes, twelve days in a day, (lol), if you wish to read and understand it that way, (lol).

Jacob
June 25th, 2017, 09:09 AM
Twelve yamim-hours in a full yom-day. And read Numbers 7 if you wish to know why; for each prince of each tribe offered the korban for his tribe in his own day, in the day wherein the altar was dedicated, yes, twelve days in a day, (lol), if you wish to read and understand it that way, (lol).
Shalom.

I do not understand your way of thinking.

Shalom.

Jacob

daqq
June 25th, 2017, 06:52 PM
Shalom.

I do not understand your way of thinking.

Shalom.

Jacob

Again, the altar was anointed in a day, just as mentioned in a previous example, earth and heavens were created in a day. The scripture says these things: change your thinking because the scripture is not going to change for you. These apparent discrepancies, (which are not contradictions at all), are there for these very reasons; to cause you to think and to awaken your mind, so that Elohim may teach you Himself by His Word. For the same reason it is written, HEAR, O Israel, for if you do not hear, how will you understand and live? Take therefore how you hear what you hear.

Jacob
June 25th, 2017, 07:59 PM
Again, the altar was anointed in a day, just as mentioned in a previous example, earth and heavens were created in a day. The scripture says these things: change your thinking because the scripture is not going to change for you. These apparent discrepancies, (which are not contradictions at all), are there for these very reasons; to cause you to think and to awaken your mind, so that Elohim may teach you Himself by His Word. For the same reason it is written, HEAR, O Israel, for if you do not hear, how will you understand and live? Take therefore how you hear what you hear.
Shalom.

I am not changing what I said to you.

Shalom.

Jacob

daqq
June 25th, 2017, 08:07 PM
Shalom.

I am not changing what I said to you.

Shalom.

Jacob

That is fine with me but it is not really me whom you disagree with:


Shalom.

I do not understand your way of thinking.

Shalom.

Jacob


Again, the altar was anointed in a day, just as mentioned in a previous example, earth and heavens were created in a day. The scripture says these things: change your thinking because the scripture is not going to change for you. These apparent discrepancies, (which are not contradictions at all), are there for these very reasons; to cause you to think and to awaken your mind, so that Elohim may teach you Himself by His Word. For the same reason it is written, HEAR, O Israel, for if you do not hear, how will you understand and live? Take therefore how you hear what you hear.

Numbers 7:10-12 KJV
10 And the princes offered for dedicating of the altar in the day that it was anointed, even the princes offered their offering before the altar.
11 And the LORD said unto Moses, They shall offer their offering, each prince on his day, for the dedicating of the altar.
12 And he that offered his offering the first day was Nahshon the son of Amminadab, of the tribe of Judah:

Numbers 7:18 KJV
18 On the second day Nethaneel the son of Zuar, prince of Issachar, did offer:

Numbers 7:24 KJV
24 On the third day Eliab the son of Helon, prince of the children of Zebulun, did offer:

And so on and so on through the twelve, (Num 7:30,36,42,48,54,60,66,72,78).
But then we read again at the end:

Numbers 7:84 KJV
84 This was the dedication of the altar, in the day when it was anointed, by the princes of Israel: twelve chargers of silver, twelve silver bowls, twelve spoons of gold:

These are therefore twelve yamim-hours in one full yom-day.

The same is true in the previous example given:

Genesis 2:1-4 KJV
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

In fact, since punctuation is added by the translators, "be-yom" may also be read this way:

"These are the generations of the heavens and the earth: in a day the LORD God made earth and heavens"

That means that the six yamim of creation are six yamim-hours in one yom-day, (that is the first autumnal equinox where the light and the darkness were separated and equally divided).

Exodus 20:11
11 For in six yamim the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh yom: wherefore the LORD blessed the Shabbat yom and sanctified it.

Jacob
June 25th, 2017, 08:14 PM
That is fine with me but it is not really me whom you disagree with:





Numbers 7:10-12 KJV
10 And the princes offered for dedicating of the altar in the day that it was anointed, even the princes offered their offering before the altar.
11 And the LORD said unto Moses, They shall offer their offering, each prince on his day, for the dedicating of the altar.
12 And he that offered his offering the first day was Nahshon the son of Amminadab, of the tribe of Judah:

Numbers 7:18 KJV
18 On the second day Nethaneel the son of Zuar, prince of Issachar, did offer:

Numbers 7:24 KJV
24 On the third day Eliab the son of Helon, prince of the children of Zebulun, did offer:

And so on and so on through the twelve, (Num 7:30,36,42,48,54,60,66,72,78).
But then we read again at the end:

Numbers 7:84 KJV
84 This was the dedication of the altar, in the day when it was anointed, by the princes of Israel: twelve chargers of silver, twelve silver bowls, twelve spoons of gold:

These are therefore twelve yamim-hours in one full yom-day.

The same is true in the previous example given:

Genesis 2:1-4 KJV
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

In fact, since punctuation is added by the translators, "be-yom" may also be read this way:

"These are the generations of the heavens and the earth: in a day the LORD God made earth and heavens"

That means that the six yamim of creation are six yamim-hours in one yom-day, (that is the first autumnal equinox where the light and the darkness were separated and equally divided).

Exodus 20:11
11 For in six yamim the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh yom: wherefore the LORD blessed the Shabbat yom and sanctified it.
Shalom.

I do not keep time this way but I do not know if I need a clock.

Shalom.

Jacob

daqq
June 25th, 2017, 08:53 PM
Shalom.

I do not keep time this way but I do not know if I need a clock.

Shalom.

Jacob

Shalom, as previously said, it is explained in the Gospel accounts, (the Sabbasin are the daily Shabbatot), but allow me to show one more thing from BaMidbar, which if you love the Father and His Word you will not delete any words from these two passages like the translators do:


Numbers 7:72 WLC (Consonants Only)
ביום עשתי עשר יום נשיא לבני אשר פגעיאל בן־עכרן׃
http://biblehub.com/text/numbers/7-72.htm

Numbers 7:78 WLC (Consonants Only)
ביום שנים עשר יום נשיא לבני נפתלי אחירע בן־עינן׃
http://biblehub.com/text/numbers/7-78.htm



Since you read Hebrew, (for so you have said to me before), what therefore is "In the yom eleventh yom"? or can it be saying, "In the eleventh yom of the yom"? And likewise what is the meaning of "In the yom twelfth yom"? or can it be saying, "In the twelfth yom of the yom"? It can only be understood one way so long as you are not willing to delete one of the yom from the text like the translators do. One yom is the hour of the day, in each passage, and the other yom is the whole day; for a yom may also be understood as an hour, and indeed, in some cases it must be understood as an hour if one will understand at all. And if you delete or subtract from these statements, as the translators do when they drop one of the yom in their English renderings, you will no doubt suffer the consequences in the entire body of your doctrine.

Shalom.

Jacob
June 26th, 2017, 11:46 AM
Shalom, as previously said, it is explained in the Gospel accounts, (the Sabbasin are the daily Shabbatot), but allow me to show one more thing from BaMidbar, which if you love the Father and His Word you will not delete any words from these two passages like the translators do:


Numbers 7:72 WLC (Consonants Only)
ביום עשתי עשר יום נשיא לבני אשר פגעיאל בן־עכרן׃
http://biblehub.com/text/numbers/7-72.htm

Numbers 7:78 WLC (Consonants Only)
ביום שנים עשר יום נשיא לבני נפתלי אחירע בן־עינן׃
http://biblehub.com/text/numbers/7-78.htm



Since you read Hebrew, (for so you have said to me before), what therefore is "In the yom eleventh yom"? or can it be saying, "In the eleventh yom of the yom"? And likewise what is the meaning of "In the yom twelfth yom"? or can it be saying, "In the twelfth yom of the yom"? It can only be understood one way so long as you are not willing to delete one of the yom from the text like the translators do. One yom is the hour of the day, in each passage, and the other yom is the whole day; for a yom may also be understood as an hour, and indeed, in some cases it must be understood as an hour if one will understand at all. And if you delete or subtract from these statements, as the translators do when they drop one of the yom in their English renderings, you will no doubt suffer the consequences in the entire body of your doctrine.

Shalom.
Shalom.

I read in the day and day here, in both. With vowels I can usually pronounce most words, but with study my vocabulary will increase.

Shalom.

Jacob