PDA

View Full Version : The Serious Consequences of NOT Believing that Jesus Atoned for the Sins of the World



Robert Pate
June 19th, 2017, 02:01 PM
The foundation of the Gospel is that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world. If Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world, then Jesus is not Lord and should be removed from his position at the right hand of God as, "The King of Kings and the Lord of Lords" Revelation 19:16. In the judgment if you profess that Jesus did NOT atone for the sins of the whole world you will perish. Jesus is Lord and he is Lord over sin, death and the devil.

"Jesus said, therefore I say unto you: That you will die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he (Lord) you shall die in your sins" John 8:24.

Jesus acceptance into heaven and his position at the right hand of God is proof that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world.

"And he is a propitiation for ours sins: and not ours only, but also FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2.

"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son TO BE THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD" 1 John 4:14.

"For I came not to judge the world, but to SAVE THE WORLD" John 12:47.

To NOT believe that Jesus is the savior of the world, is to believe that God made a deal with the devil. The deal would be that Jesus would only atone for some sins, but not all sins, which would be ludicrous.

"And having spoiled principalities and powers (Satan) he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it" Colossians 2:15.

If Jesus had not atoned for the sins of the whole world, God would not have accepted Jesus back into heaven and we would all still be without hope and in our sins. But thanks be to God Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil, so that now, "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Robert Pate
June 21st, 2017, 07:35 AM
To profess that Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world is blasphemy against the Gospel and the Holy Spirit. It may be the unforgiveable sin, simply because no one can be saved without faith in Christ and his Gospel. A limited atonement is a profession that one does NOT have faith in Christ and his Gospel. There can be NO Gospel if Jesus only atoned for some sins and not all sin,

beloved57
June 21st, 2017, 10:47 AM
To profess that Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world is blasphemy against the Gospel and the Holy Spirit. It may be the unforgiveable sin, simply because no one can be saved without faith in Christ and his Gospel. A limited atonement is a profession that one does NOT have faith in Christ and his Gospel. There can be NO Gospel if Jesus only atoned for some sins and not all sin,

The serious consequences of teaching that those sinners Christ died for and made atonement for are still lost. It says Christ's atoning death saved no one !

Robert Pate
June 21st, 2017, 01:10 PM
The serious consequences of teaching that those sinners Christ died for and made atonement for are still lost. It says Christ's atoning death saved no one !

NOTHING is yours until it is received by faith, John 1:12. Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

beloved57
June 21st, 2017, 01:48 PM
NOTHING is yours until it is received by faith, John 1:12. Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

False statement and continues to deny the saving death of Christ !

Nanja
June 21st, 2017, 03:55 PM
False statement and continues to deny the saving death of Christ !

True on both counts!

Robert Pate
June 21st, 2017, 04:28 PM
False statement and continues to deny the saving death of Christ !

How does teaching that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world deny the saving work of Christ? 1 John 2:2.

If you are going to make false accusations you should try to get the facts straight.

beloved57
June 21st, 2017, 04:58 PM
How does teaching that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world deny the saving work of Christ? 1 John 2:2.

If you are going to make false accusations you should try to get the facts straight.

You still deny the saving death of Christ !

Nanja
June 21st, 2017, 05:10 PM
How does teaching that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world deny the saving work of Christ? 1 John 2:2.

If you are going to make false accusations you should try to get the facts straight.


The whole world of 1 John 2:2 consists exclusively of the world of individuals, both jew and gentile, that God's Wrath for their sins have been propitiated.

Now is that all men in the world without exception? No, it can't possibly be because there are many that the wrath of God continues to abide upon, for instance:

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

So God's Wrath comes upon those individuals who remain permanently under the Wrath of God!

Rom. 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Therefore, these cannot be any that were reconciled to God while enemies Rom. 5:10!

Bright Raven
June 21st, 2017, 05:28 PM
Why do Calvinists not accept the word all to mean all?

jamie
June 21st, 2017, 05:52 PM
Why do Calvinists not accept the word all to mean all?


It interferes with their religious beliefs.

Robert Pate
June 21st, 2017, 08:28 PM
You still deny the saving death of Christ !

I do not. Jesus has atoned for every sin that has ever been committed from the beginning of time.

You are a liar and a false accuser.

Robert Pate
June 21st, 2017, 08:31 PM
The whole world of 1 John 2:2 consists exclusively of the world of individuals, both jew and gentile, that God's Wrath for their sins have been propitiated.

Now is that all men in the world without exception? No, it can't possibly be because there are many that the wrath of God continues to abide upon, for instance:

John 3:36
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

So God's Wrath comes upon those individuals who remain permanently under the Wrath of God!

Rom. 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Therefore, these cannot be any that were reconciled to God while enemies Rom. 5:10!

You have no regard for God's word. You twist it and distort it.

beloved57
June 21st, 2017, 11:20 PM
I do not. Jesus has atoned for every sin that has ever been committed from the beginning of time.

You are a liar and a false accuser.
You do. You believe that sinners Christ died for are still lost!

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

Nanja
June 22nd, 2017, 05:37 AM
You have no regard for God's word. You twist it and distort it.


Pate, you're disqualified from even making that judgment.

You have no knowledge or understanding of God's Word because you are not Born of God.


John 8:43, 47

43 Why do ye not understand [Gr. ginōskō: to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of] my speech?

even because ye cannot hear [Gr. akouō: to understand, perceive the sense of what is said] my word.

47 He that is of God heareth [akouō] God's words:

ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


1 Cor. 2:14

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:

for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Robert Pate
June 22nd, 2017, 08:25 AM
Pate, you're disqualified from even making that judgment.

You have no knowledge or understanding of God's Word because you are not Born of God.


John 8:43, 47

43 Why do ye not understand [Gr. ginōskō: to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of] my speech?

even because ye cannot hear [Gr. akouō: to understand, perceive the sense of what is said] my word.

47 He that is of God heareth [akouō] God's words:

ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


1 Cor. 2:14

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:

for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

That is what you would like to believe. You always believe what you like to believe. You like to believe that you have been predestinated. You like to believe that you are one of the elect. Instead of believing God's words you like to believe the words of a heretic. You think that it is all about you and what you like to believe.

Eagles Wings
June 22nd, 2017, 08:32 AM
That is what you would like to believe. You always believe what you like to believe. You like to believe that you have been predestinated. You like to believe that you are one of the elect. Instead of believing God's words you like to believe the words of a heretic. You think that it is all about you and what you like to believe.

Do you "like" the many errors you blog about?

Robert Pate
June 22nd, 2017, 01:20 PM
Do you "like" the many errors you blog about?

I tell the truth, but you Calvinist don't want truth. You want the words of a heretic that make you feel good about yourself.

jamie
June 22nd, 2017, 02:54 PM
I tell the truth, but you Calvinist don't want truth. You want the words of a heretic that make you feel good about yourself.


Don't you subscribe to Calvin's premise that once saved always saved?

Nanja
June 22nd, 2017, 02:55 PM
That is what you would like to believe. You always believe what you like to believe. You like to believe that you have been predestinated. You like to believe that you are one of the elect. Instead of believing God's words you like to believe the words of a heretic. You think that it is all about you and what you like to believe.

I don't believe the words of any heretic, that's an outright lie.

I Believe the Scriptures alone!

But you don't believe the scriptures, which do include the doctrines of Election and Predestination, because you are prevented from understanding God's Words, exactly as I have shown you from these scriptures:




You have no knowledge or understanding of God's Word because you are not Born of God.


John 8:43, 47

43 Why do ye not understand [Gr. ginōskō: to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of] my speech?

even because ye cannot hear [Gr. akouō: to understand, perceive the sense of what is said] my word.

47 He that is of God heareth [akouō] God's words:

ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


1 Cor. 2:14

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:

for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


So as long as folks remain in a spiritually lost state, the Gospel is hid from them because like you, they are blinded by satan.

2 Cor. 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

glorydaz
June 22nd, 2017, 03:05 PM
You still deny the saving death of Christ !

Where is your scripture for that?

Eagles Wings
June 22nd, 2017, 03:08 PM
I tell the truth, but you Calvinist don't want truth. You want the words of a heretic that make you feel good about yourself.A saint, per Scripture, is always pointing to the Lord's goodness, not their own.

Soli Deo Gloria!

Bright Raven
June 22nd, 2017, 03:14 PM
Nanja, :blabla::blabla::blabla:

Truster
June 22nd, 2017, 03:36 PM
Why do Calvinists not accept the word all to mean all?

As in: ALL we like sheep have gone astray;

beloved57
June 22nd, 2017, 04:04 PM
Where is your scripture for that?

You dont believe scripture. You like him, you teach and believe sinners Christ died for are lost ! Dont need a scripture for that, now do I?

Robert Pate
June 22nd, 2017, 04:07 PM
As in: ALL we like sheep have gone astray;

How about..."For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior, who will have ALL MEN to be saved and to come into the knowledge of the truth" 1 Timothy 2:3, 4.

Truster
June 22nd, 2017, 04:38 PM
"He that trusteth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of Elohim abideth on him" (John 3:36).


Not many actually trust and so wrath abides upon them,

beloved57
June 22nd, 2017, 05:17 PM
How about..."For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior, who will have ALL MEN to be saved and to come into the knowledge of the truth" 1 Timothy 2:3, 4.
How about you don't believe Christ death saves sinners He died for.

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

Nanja
June 22nd, 2017, 05:43 PM
How about you don't believe Christ death saves sinners He died for.

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')


He denies the efficacy of Christ's Blood to save those it was shed for!

Robert Pate
June 23rd, 2017, 08:45 AM
Calvinist: "Oh goody for me, God chose me and not you. I must be precious, but not you, you goat. God saw something good in me and chose me to be his very own, but not you, you goat".

Eagles Wings
June 23rd, 2017, 09:05 AM
Calvinist: "Oh goody for me, God chose me and not you. I must be precious, but not you, you goat. God saw something good in me and chose me to be his very own, but not you, you goat".
The saint looks upon their justification, and sanctification with great humility, boasting only in God's mercy and His grace.

beloved57
June 23rd, 2017, 10:06 AM
Calvinist: "Oh goody for me, God chose me and not you. I must be precious, but not you, you goat. God saw something good in me and chose me to be his very own, but not you, you goat".

Actually you boast that God saved you over the next person because of something you did. I dont believe you are saved, however your premise is conducive to boasting !

Brother Ducky
June 23rd, 2017, 01:59 PM
Why do Calvinists not accept the word all to mean all?

Many meanings can have one word. Context is important in helping to determine what is meant.

The biggest problem with Pate tossing "all" and "world" about is his default position is "all human beings." Often not what is meant.

His position if logically followed [Pate is in no danger of this] leads to Universalism.
If God has atoned for all sin of all people and has reconciled all people to Himself, on what basis can God have any in Hell?

Pate has hell populated with sinless people. Actually Pate has God re-imputing sin, but of course can give no verse that states that.

Epoisses
June 23rd, 2017, 04:58 PM
Many meanings can have one word. Context is important in helping to determine what is meant.

The biggest problem with Pate tossing "all" and "world" about is his default position is "all human beings." Often not what is meant.

His position if logically followed [Pate is in no danger of this] leads to Universalism.
If God has atoned for all sin of all people and has reconciled all people to Himself, on what basis can God have any in Hell?

Pate has hell populated with sinless people. Actually Pate has God re-imputing sin, but of course can give no verse that states that.

The Calvinists will always make an unlimited atonement into Universalism which are two completely different things. Lon the deceiver is an expert at this and when called on it by me he went crying to Knight and had me banned. Calvinists are liars and deceivers and bigots and are despised by all Christians from Catholic to Orthodox to Protestant. I don't even consider them as Christian because they have no love for their fellow man. They remind me a lot of SDA with their holier than thou attitudes.

Brother Ducky
June 23rd, 2017, 07:22 PM
The Calvinists will always make an unlimited atonement into Universalism which are two completely different things. Lon the deceiver is an expert at this and when called on it by me he went crying to Knight and had me banned. Calvinists are liars and deceivers and bigots and are despised by all Christians from Catholic to Orthodox to Protestant. I don't even consider them as Christian because they have no love for their fellow man. They remind me a lot of SDA with their holier than thou attitudes.

Not a lot of love in this post.

And not a lot of explanation of how universal atonement does not logically lead to Universalism.

Brother Ducky
June 23rd, 2017, 07:35 PM
To profess that Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world is blasphemy against the Gospel and the Holy Spirit. It may be the unforgiveable sin, simply because no one can be saved without faith in Christ and his Gospel. A limited atonement is a profession that one does NOT have faith in Christ and his Gospel. There can be NO Gospel if Jesus only atoned for some sins and not all sin,

It is very good news that Jesus atoned for all sins of some people.

glorydaz
June 23rd, 2017, 07:40 PM
Many meanings can have one word. Context is important in helping to determine what is meant.

True.


His position if logically followed [Pate is in no danger of this] leads to Universalism.
If God has atoned for all sin of all people and has reconciled all people to Himself, on what basis can God have any in Hell?

Well, God has done his part...atoned for all sin and reconciled all of mankind to Himself. That leaves but one thing left undone, which is for each of us to "be reconciled" to God.


2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.


Pate has hell populated with sinless people. Actually Pate has God re-imputing sin, but of course can give no verse that states that.

No, hell is populated with unbelievers.


John 16:7-11
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Brother Ducky
June 23rd, 2017, 07:40 PM
I tell the truth, but you Calvinist don't want truth. You want the words of a heretic that make you feel good about yourself.

Actually most Calvinists do not deal much with the works of Calvin himself.

Not sure that Calvinism makes one feel good about oneself, but it really does make us feel good about our God.

Nang
June 23rd, 2017, 07:59 PM
True.



Well, God has done his part...atoned for all sin and reconciled all of mankind to Himself. That leaves but one thing left undone, which is for each of us to "be reconciled" to God.

Prime example of a synergistic (false) gospel message.

Such denies the sovereignty and ability of God to save, monergisticaly, who He wills.

Brother Ducky
June 23rd, 2017, 08:14 PM
True.



Well, God has done his part...atoned for all sin and reconciled all of mankind to Himself. That leaves but one thing left undone, which is for each of us to "be reconciled" to God.


2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.



No, hell is populated with unbelievers.


John 16:7-11
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

If God has atoned for all sin and reconciled all, the call to be reconciled is meaningless.
John in this passage is defining at least some sin as unbelief. But if all sin is atoned for, the sin of unbelief is already dealt with. So again, with universal atonement hell is populated with sinless people.

glorydaz
June 23rd, 2017, 08:44 PM
Prime example of a synergistic (false) gospel message.

Such denies the sovereignty and ability of God to save, monergisticaly, who He wills.

Your argument is with Scripture.

2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

patrick jane
June 23rd, 2017, 08:48 PM
If God has atoned for all sin and reconciled all, the call to be reconciled is meaningless.
John in this passage is defining at least some sin as unbelief. But if all sin is atoned for, the sin of unbelief is already dealt with. So again, with universal atonement hell is populated with sinless people.Unbelief is unforgivable

glorydaz
June 23rd, 2017, 08:56 PM
If God has atoned for all sin and reconciled all, the call to be reconciled is meaningless.
John in this passage is defining at least some sin as unbelief. But if all sin is atoned for, the sin of unbelief is already dealt with. So again, with universal atonement hell is populated with sinless people.

No, John is pointing out the basis for all sin....unbelief. The cross took care of the effects of that unbelief (sin), but it's unbelief that separates us from God. The coming Comforter is making it clear that those who refuse to turn to God and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ are condemned. It doesn't get any clearer than that. It's why the Gospel tells us, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Actually, it's written over and over again in God's Holy Scripture. Hard to miss.

Epoisses
June 23rd, 2017, 09:00 PM
Not a lot of love in this post.

And not a lot of explanation of how universal atonement does not logically lead to Universalism.

It doesn't logically lead to universalism because it is history not who ultimately ends up in heaven or hell. But of course that goes against your Calvinist paradigm so it is unwelcomed and shunned. Like you would know anything about love who sees all others as goats and reprobates simply because they disagree with you.

Epoisses
June 23rd, 2017, 09:03 PM
Prime example of a synergistic (false) gospel message.

Such denies the sovereignty and ability of God to save, monergisticaly, who He wills.

The word sovereign does not appear in the bible not even once. It is wholly an invention of man where the bible concludes that some sins are unforgivable like unbelief and pride.

glorydaz
June 23rd, 2017, 09:08 PM
Unbelief is unforgivable

Yep, and that's what John is talking about when he speaks of the Comforter who was to come. Not believing the Gospel of Salvation is blasphemy of the Spirit. It is the work of the Spirit to convince and convict through the preaching of the Gospel.


Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

The work of the Spirit is mighty....full of power.


Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

The Spirit is who puts the POWER in the word ...the Gospel of salvation.


Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Nang
June 23rd, 2017, 09:12 PM
The word sovereign does not appear in the bible not even once. It is wholly an invention of man where the bible concludes that some sins are unforgivable like unbelief and pride.

Sovereignty speaks to the authority and rule of God over all His creation.

Do you deny Jesus Christ is King of Kings, and His royal will be done?

Epoisses
June 23rd, 2017, 09:22 PM
Sovereignty speaks to the authority and rule of God over all His creation.

Do you deny Jesus Christ is King of Kings, and His royal will be done?

Do you deny that Satan fell from heaven and Adam fell from innocence?

Brother Ducky
June 23rd, 2017, 10:20 PM
It doesn't logically lead to universalism because it is history not who ultimately ends up in heaven or hell. But of course that goes against your Calvinist paradigm so it is unwelcomed and shunned. Like you would know anything about love who sees all others as goats and reprobates simply because they disagree with you.

You obviously have me confused with someone else.

Insofar as I can remember, I have never referred to any as goat or reprobate or any such terms. I have affirmed at least some with whom I disagree as brothers in sisters in Christ. We can hold different views and disagree without being disagreeable.

And I believe that you have declared all 5 pointers as damned. Seems inappropriate for you to criticize in this area.

Truster
June 23rd, 2017, 10:39 PM
The word sovereign does not appear in the bible not even once. It is wholly an invention of man where the bible concludes that some sins are unforgivable like unbelief and pride.

How ignorant you are. Sovereign also means King and just as a King has a kingdom so a Sovereign has a sovereigndom. Your eyes have most assuredly been blinded to the truth. King (Sovereign) appears 2259 times and related words in their hundreds.

Everything you post is the invention of your wicked and unrepentant heart*.

heart* not the blood pump

PS The word Adonay means Sovereign and has been mistranslated as Lord.

Robert Pate
June 24th, 2017, 09:24 AM
How ignorant you are. Sovereign also means King and just as a King has a kingdom so a Sovereign has a sovereigndom. Your eyes have most assuredly been blinded to the truth. King (Sovereign) appears 2259 times and related words in their hundreds.

Everything you post is the invention of your wicked and unrepentant heart*.

heart* not the blood pump

PS The word Adonay means Sovereign and has been mistranslated as Lord.


God's sovereignty does not override his holy, just, merciful, righteous character.

All that God does in his relationship with fallen man is just, merciful and righteous. No one will be able to accuse God of not being fair in the judgment. God has done all that he can do for the salvation of fallen man, but he not going to impose anything on anyone. If he did that he would not be just.

Brother Ducky
June 24th, 2017, 12:25 PM
Unbelief is unforgivable

The above passage in John seems to consider unbelief as sin. If all sin is atoned for, the sin of unbelief has been atoned for.

patrick jane
June 24th, 2017, 12:28 PM
The above passage in John seems to consider unbelief as sin. If all sin is atoned for, the sin of unbelief has been atoned for.Nope

Nang
June 24th, 2017, 12:45 PM
The above passage in John seems to consider unbelief as sin. If all sin is atoned for, the sin of unbelief has been atoned for.

Yes, and if all sin is atoned, then all men are reconciled to God.

Such is Universalistic (false) teaching.

But false teachers say that man has the freedom of will to reject this universal atonement and total reconciliation and therefore remain unsaved.

The basis for such is not really a free will choice, but unbelief. Reprobates simply do not believe in God, or His Word, or the Truth. They do not "choose" to be reconciled with God, because they hate Him and refuse to believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour.

So why is this unbelief still existent, if supposedly all sins of all men, was propitiated?

I call such thinking, illogical . . .

Nang
June 24th, 2017, 12:50 PM
Nope

"Nope," what?

Nope, unbelief is not a sin?

Nope, all sin has not been atoned for?

Nope, the sin of unbelief, has not been paid for?

Nope, unbelief is not a sin, but not choosing to believe God will condemn?

:dead:

patrick jane
June 24th, 2017, 12:53 PM
"Nope," what?

Nope, unbelief is not a sin?

Nope, all sin has not been atoned for?

Nope, the sin of unbelief, has not been paid for?

Nope, unbelief is not a sin, but not choosing to believe God will condemn?

:dead:Are unbelievers saved? :duh:

Nang
June 24th, 2017, 01:02 PM
Are unbelievers saved? :duh:

No, because they were never reconciled to God. Jesus Christ did not atone for their sin of unbelief. He did not die for them, but left them to destruction.

So no one can dogmatically claim unlimited (universal) atonement, nor universal reconciliation.

God saves 100% of the souls He justified by His blood.

Not one is left in unbelief, unreconciled, nor with the ability to reject His grace.

The saving grace of God is irresistible and cannot be rejected or refused or lost. Such is evidence of His Sovereignty and Eternal Authority.

And it is also evidence, reprobates are never offered His Grace, because Jesus never atoned for their sins and they were not reconciled to God at the cross.

Truster
June 24th, 2017, 01:09 PM
God's sovereignty does not override his holy, just, merciful, righteous character.

All that God does in his relationship with fallen man is just, merciful and righteous. No one will be able to accuse God of not being fair in the judgment. God has done all that he can do for the salvation of fallen man, but he not going to impose anything on anyone. If he did that he would not be just.

What are you twittering on about now. This has nothing to do with what I was addressing.

Robert Pate
June 24th, 2017, 02:07 PM
What are you twittering on about now. This has nothing to do with what I was addressing.


Sure it does. Calvinist seem to believe that God's sovereignty overrides God's holy, just, merciful, righteous character.

Nang
June 24th, 2017, 02:34 PM
Sure it does. Calvinist seem to believe that God's sovereignty overrides God's holy, just, merciful, righteous character.

The attributes of God are all equal, and in perfect harmony.

IOW's the authority of God comes from who God is, and God is all virtues attributed to His Being. Nothing in God "overrides" another. For God is simplicity and not a variety or number of parts.

God is Just because God is Love. God is Love because God is Just. God rules over all in justice and love, and determines all things out of love and justice.

Etc., etc. . .

glorydaz
June 24th, 2017, 02:43 PM
The attributes of God are all equal, and in perfect harmony.

IOW's the authority of God comes from who God is, and God is all virtues attributed to His Being. Nothing in God "overrides" another. For God is simplicity and not a variety or number of parts.

God is Just because God is Love. God is Love because God is Just. God rules over all in justice and love, and determines all things out of love and justice.

Etc., etc. . .

Gosh, she has God all figured out....and no scripture needed. CleverDan


Etc., etc....

Truster
June 24th, 2017, 02:48 PM
Sure it does. Calvinist seem to believe that God's sovereignty overrides God's holy, just, merciful, righteous character.

I don't know where you got that idea from Pate, but your hatred is fast breeding with confusion. Elohim is not the author of confusion.

Brother Ducky
June 24th, 2017, 03:11 PM
Nope

Please clarify.

1Mind1Spirit
June 24th, 2017, 03:29 PM
If Jesus had not atoned for the sins of the whole world, God would not have accepted Jesus back into heaven and we would all still be without hope and in our sins. But thanks be to God Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil, so that now, "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

I see nobody has addressed this bit of presumptive ignorance.

Robert, God put all things in Jesus's hands.

That included his free will to return home and leave you behind.

Or do you believe everyone had free will but Jesus?

Epoisses
June 24th, 2017, 05:07 PM
You obviously have me confused with someone else.

Insofar as I can remember, I have never referred to any as goat or reprobate or any such terms. I have affirmed at least some with whom I disagree as brothers in sisters in Christ. We can hold different views and disagree without being disagreeable.

And I believe that you have declared all 5 pointers as damned. Seems inappropriate for you to criticize in this area.

All five-pointers are damned because they reject Christ as the savior of the world. They basically declare that Christ's mission to save a lost world and atone for all sin was a failure. That's like the worst sin you can commit.

Epoisses
June 24th, 2017, 05:09 PM
How ignorant you are. Sovereign also means King and just as a King has a kingdom so a Sovereign has a sovereigndom. Your eyes have most assuredly been blinded to the truth. King (Sovereign) appears 2259 times and related words in their hundreds.

Everything you post is the invention of your wicked and unrepentant heart*.

heart* not the blood pump

PS The word Adonay means Sovereign and has been mistranslated as Lord.

You're like the stupid fool that Calvinists keep around to laugh at so they don't feel so bad that they have made shipwreck of their faith.

Truster
June 24th, 2017, 05:12 PM
You're like the stupid fool that Calvinists keep around to laugh at so they don't feel so bad that they have made shipwreck of their faith.

Is that it? Feeble attempts don't warrant a reply.

Epoisses
June 24th, 2017, 05:12 PM
Yes, and if all sin is atoned, then all men are reconciled to God.

True. All men have been reconciled to God in Christ Jesus.

All men have not come to repentance, been converted and grown into maturity like you.

Charles94
June 24th, 2017, 07:35 PM
Why do Calvinists not accept the word all to mean all?

It's not "all", for one thing, it's "pas" from the Greek. This is mostly a repost, but since you missed it before, let's go over it again. Here is one place that "pas" is used:

1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil...

The old KJV taught that the “love of money is the root of “all” evil – which, for non-calvinists who chant “all means all”, can make for some sad attempts at explaining why King David committed adultery because he loved money. So do you believe that the love of money is the root of every single evil ever committed?

Acts 2:17 'And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. 18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.

“Pas” is translated here as “all flesh.” But the context of Acts 2 tells us that while Joel's prophesy was fulfilled, the Spirit was only poured out on believers. Male and female, young and old, but only believers, and not every single individual person.

Why do you believe that the Spirit was poured out every single person, believer and unbeliever alike, at Pentecost?

You have to read the bible in context. Robert Pate still denies the context of Hebrews 2:9:

Heb2:10-16 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many SONS to glory, to make the captain of THEIR salvation perfect through sufferings. For both He who sanctifies and THOSE WHO ARE BEING SANCTIFIED are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them BRETHREN...“Here am I and the CHILDREN whom God has given Me.”
For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the SEED OF ABRAHAM. (See also: Gal3:29.)

He tasted death for all of His family (sons/brothers), for “those who are being sanctified” and for the children of Abraham (John8:39-56 is another helpful text here). A lot of synonyms for "believers."

You can try to prooftext verses like 1Tim2:6 as meaning “every single person,” but v7 clarifies that Paul is speaking to the Jew/Gentile division that persisted in the early Church.

OTOH, the scriptures teach “Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us…” Gal3:13 He was made a curse for “us” who believe. But to unbelievers He says, “Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.” Matt25:41 He was not made a curse for them – He did not take away their sin.

Rom8:32-33He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

If God’s Son was given up for “us all” then how shall He not also give “us all” all things, including justification. Does the “us all” here – described as God’s “elect” or “chosen” – refer to believers or everyone? Given the logical argument here and your understanding that Jesus was given up for “every single person in the world,” how can God send away those cursed in Matt25 if Jesus was given up for them?

I believe that 1John2:2 is written to the Jewish church in the 1st century - that is the group to whom John was primarily sent (Gal2:9). But if you’ve read the rest of the NT, you may have noticed that the Christian Jews had a lot of trouble accepting that Jesus also came for the Gentiles, which is why John reminds them that Jesus was not only the propitiation for the sins of the Jews but for the Gentile believers as well. And John repeats the same thing in his gospel:

John11:51-52Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

Charles94
June 24th, 2017, 09:36 PM
Unbelief is unforgivable

If you stopped to consider what happens when you sin, even now, you would notice that when you lust after a woman, it's because you (at least briefly) have stopped believing in God; or if you worry about the future, it's because you (at least briefly) have stopped believing that God is your Father. You forget about God and make your desires the priority.

This notion that unbelief is a unique sort of sin that Jesus didn't atone for is a shallow unsupportable Western fable. Paul's unbelief in persecuting the Church was forgiven. Peter's unbelief in denying Christ was forgiven (even before his denial - which makes for an interesting contrast with Judas.) Heck, when Peter shunned the Gentiles to eat with the Jews in Galatia, he was not believing in the Jesus who declared all foods clean in Mark7:19 and again in Acts10.

When a man cried out, "Help my unbelief!” in Mark9:24, his prayer was answered.

You suggest that someone can believe and be forgiven to become one of Jesus' sheep - but Jesus taught the reverse in John10:26-27, that you first need the nature of one of His "sheep" to believe. "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep..."

Unbelief is at the core of most sin, but it's not unforgivable. The issue with Calvinism is where does saving belief originate. Calvinists teach that it comes from the transforming work of the Spirit which makes hard hearts soft and teachable. Noncalvinists teach that it's something you choose either randomly, or because you are smart enough, humble enough and spiritual enough through your own self-generated righteousness to recognize the value and truth of Jesus teaching while your unbelieving neighbor rejects it.

God repeatedly demands credit for bringing His chosen ones to Himself. (Acts5:31; Acts11:18; Acts13:48; Acts16:14; John3:21; Phil1:29; Isa55:11)

1Cor3:5-7 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

It wasn't because of clever teachers like Paul and Apollos. While it's not the primary point of the passage - logically, it couldn't even be due to the "free will" of the hearers. Instead, Paul eagerly gave God ALL the credit for the increase in His Church. John3:3 similarly points to the need for the Spirit to “see” the kingdom – the Pneuma is the One with free will, to “go where He wishes.” John3:8

But if you start with Aristotle's philosophy instead of the Bible, that will cause issues with considering God "unfair" if He really is responsible for the increase in His Church instead of passively waiting and hoping for the best for people to be smart and obedient enough to choose Him on their own. And so we go round and round...

patrick jane
June 24th, 2017, 09:42 PM
If you stopped to consider what happens when you sin, even now, you would notice that when you lust after a woman, it's because you (at least briefly) have stopped believing in God; or if you worry about the future, it's because you (at least briefly) have stopped believing that God is your Father. You forget about God and make your desires the priority.

Calvinist?

jamie
June 25th, 2017, 08:17 AM
Jesus who declared all foods clean in Mark7:19 and again in Acts10.


All foods are clean, but not everything that moves is meant to be food.

Jesus was a Jew and his words can be understood in the Jewish context in which they were spoken or they can be understood in the Gentile context that you promote.

Jesus cleansed humans with his sacrifice of reconciliation, but he didn't cleanse animals. They are as they were in Noah's day, clean and unclean.

Robert Pate
June 25th, 2017, 12:03 PM
I see nobody has addressed this bit of presumptive ignorance.

Robert, God put all things in Jesus's hands.

That included his free will to return home and leave you behind.

Or do you believe everyone had free will but Jesus?


I have not been left behind. When Jesus was accepted back into heaven I was accepted in him. I am now spiritually in heavenly places in Jesus Christ, Ephesians 2:6. Not sure about you.

jamie
June 25th, 2017, 12:39 PM
I am now spiritually in heavenly places in Jesus Christ, Ephesians 2:6.


Where are your heavenly places?

Robert Pate
June 25th, 2017, 01:07 PM
I don't know where you got that idea from Pate, but your hatred is fast breeding with confusion. Elohim is not the author of confusion.

A God that only saves some and damns the rest to hell is unjust. This is why we are justified by faith.

Robert Pate
June 25th, 2017, 01:08 PM
Where are your heavenly places?

You ask some strange questions. Heavenly places are in heaven.

jamie
June 25th, 2017, 01:59 PM
You ask some strange questions. Heavenly places are in heaven.


Yes, but where is the Father? Is heaven a place?

Brother Ducky
June 25th, 2017, 04:04 PM
The word sovereign does not appear in the bible not even once. It is wholly an invention of man where the bible concludes that some sins are unforgivable like unbelief and pride.

Jer. 32:17 in the NIV

Epoisses
June 25th, 2017, 04:27 PM
Jer. 32:17 in the NIV

So if God is absolutely sovereign how did sin happen in the first place? Did he ordain it to happen?

1Mind1Spirit
June 25th, 2017, 08:40 PM
So if God is absolutely sovereign how did sin happen in the first place? Did he ordain it to happen?

Shore did.

Just so you could learn about Him and His goodness and mercy.

Epoisses
June 25th, 2017, 08:49 PM
Shore did.

Just so you could learn about Him and His goodness and mercy.

You're an idiot and a sinner and if you were actually in the presence of God you would be cut down by his wrath.

1Mind1Spirit
June 25th, 2017, 08:53 PM
You're an idiot and a sinner

Yup.


and if you were actually in the presence of God you would be cut down by his wrath.

Nope, I will be like His son.

Epoisses
June 25th, 2017, 08:57 PM
Nope, I will be like His son.

So you lived a perfect life and died for all sin? The message of Jesus was not to follow his example but to follow his teachings and his teachings were to be converted or you can't even see the kingdom.

lifeisgood
June 25th, 2017, 09:10 PM
Is heaven a place?

I think heaven is a place for the Bible says that there are streets, trees, water, throne, etc. and what comes to my mind is the Lord kept on telling Moses follow my instructions verbatim do not deviate from what I told you (paraphrasing a little bit here) about the construction of the tabernacle.

I could be totally wrong, but that is the way I see it. It is not a salvivic issue though.

1Mind1Spirit
June 25th, 2017, 09:16 PM
So you lived a perfect life and died for all sin?

Nope.


The message of Jesus was not to follow his example but to follow his teachings and his teachings were to be converted or you can't even see the kingdom.

Who you reckon initiates the convertin'?

Veritas veritate
June 25th, 2017, 09:46 PM
1. "Saved" has nothing to do with going to heaven or hell. It has everything to do with being PRESERVED during the ages of time.

2. Predestined has nothing to do with destination, as in, the final place one is going. It has everything to do with "DESTINY" that is, the purpose for which God has placed each person (preserved or lost) on this earth, a purpose which will be fulfilled during the ages of time... Nobody is predestined to heaven or hell, that false inference cannot be found concretely anywhere in the Bible.

Nobody seems to check context or word meanings anymore.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

jamie
June 25th, 2017, 09:54 PM
I think heaven is a place for the Bible says that there are streets, trees, water, throne, etc.


That's the new earth. We're not there yet.

Heaven is the spiritual dimension surrounding the earth. God lives in his temple on earth.

We are that eternal temple not built with hands.

"Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are."
(1 corinthians 3:16-17)

lifeisgood
June 26th, 2017, 05:16 AM
That's the new earth. We're not there yet.

Heaven is the spiritual dimension surrounding the earth. God lives in his temple on earth.

We are that eternal temple not built with hands.

"Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are."
(1 corinthians 3:16-17)

Not going to dispute about the above. Like I said, is just the way I see it. It is not a salvific issue for me.

Charles94
July 2nd, 2017, 05:48 PM
Calvinist?

obviously, yes.

it's not the lack of unbelief that distinguishes us. unbelief is common, part of the old nature for believers and the only nature for those without the Spirit.

the question at hand: where does that saving belief or faith come from?

Robert Pate
July 2nd, 2017, 05:59 PM
obviously, yes.

it's not the lack of unbelief that distinguishes us. unbelief is common, part of the old nature for believers and the only nature for those without the Spirit.

the question at hand: where does that saving belief or faith come from?


We are all born with the ability to have faith. It is a natural human attribute. We first have faith in our parents. Faith is give to those that hear and believe the Gospel.

"So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (which is the Gospel) Romans 10:17.

Charles94
July 2nd, 2017, 06:16 PM
All foods are clean, but not everything that moves is meant to be food.

Jesus was a Jew and his words can be understood in the Jewish context in which they were spoken or they can be understood in the Gentile context that you promote.

The whole point of Acts 10 and Paul's irate response to Peter in Galatians is that there is no longer a Jewish context to food. When Peter and the cohort that promoted continuing with the Jewish food laws used that and circumcision to cause division with the Gentile believers, Paul declared it to be a gospel issue.

Gal2:11-16 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."

Before the Judaizers came, Peter was eating with the Gentiles - eating food that was unclean by Jewish law - eating food that he was told by the Lord in Acts10:13-15 to "kill and eat."

But when the Judaizers came, Peter was a hypocrite. He denied what the Lord told him in Acts 10. He was acting in unbelief, trying to please men. That is why Paul "withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed" - Peter was messing with the very gospel. (v14)

If you have a point, I would love to know what it is, because it looks like you are simply posturing as a know-it-all. I think Mark7:19 is correctly interpreted as ending the Jewish food laws, but it makes zero difference to my argument at hand whether Acts10 is a better cutoff.


Jesus cleansed humans with his sacrifice of reconciliation, but he didn't cleanse animals. They are as they were in Noah's day, clean and unclean.

If He cleansed all humans, the ball is still in your court to explain why God's wrath abides, and how some could be condemned "already" if Jesus did not come to condemn "the world = every single person." John3:17-18 How could God cast someone to whom He is supposedly reconciled into Hell?

I'd ask Pate but he's already doddering off and quoting verses again that have been shown to be misused by him out of context...

Charles94
July 2nd, 2017, 06:24 PM
Quote Originally Posted by 1Mind1Spirit:
Nope, I will be like His son.


So you lived a perfect life and died for all sin?

For someone more engaged in name-calling than logical argument, you don't seem to have much of a knack for reading comprehension when it comes to verb tense...

Did you even notice he is talking about the future (1John3:2, I believe) while you ask about the past?

jsanford108
July 2nd, 2017, 09:03 PM
If God has atoned for all sin and reconciled all, the call to be reconciled is meaningless.
John in this passage is defining at least some sin as unbelief. But if all sin is atoned for, the sin of unbelief is already dealt with. So again, with universal atonement hell is populated with sinless people.

Hell would be rendered null and pointless because damnation cannot be just since "all sin is atoned for."


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Robert Pate
July 2nd, 2017, 09:18 PM
Hell would be rendered null and pointless because damnation cannot be just since "all sin is atoned for."


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)


The forgiveness of sins is not yours unless it is received as a gift from God.

jsanford108
July 3rd, 2017, 08:15 AM
The forgiveness of sins is not yours unless it is received as a gift from God.

I was agreeing with the guy. And yes, all things we receive are gifts from God.

Epoisses
July 3rd, 2017, 03:40 PM
Hell would be rendered null and pointless because damnation cannot be just since "all sin is atoned for."


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

All sin is atoned for in Christ! Those who have Christ by faith are cleansed from all sin while those who abide in unbelief are still in their sins. You fight against the truth with every post but your arguments get shot down over and over and over.

Nanja
July 3rd, 2017, 05:25 PM
All sin is atoned for in Christ!

Wrong!

Christ's atonement was the propitiation of the sins of all God's Elect chosen in Him to have forgiveness of sins before the foundation Eph. 1:4-7.



Those who have Christ by faith are cleansed from all sin while those who abide in unbelief are still in their sins. You fight against the truth with every post but your arguments get shot down over and over and over.


The only Faith / Belief that pleases God is a fruit and gift of the Spirit given in New Birth Gal. 5:22; Eph. 2:8.

Before a person is Born of God nothing he does can please Him Rom. 8:8!

Epoisses
July 3rd, 2017, 05:38 PM
Wrong!

Christ's atonement was the propitiation of the sins of all God's Elect chosen in Him to have forgiveness of sins before the foundation Eph. 1:4-7.

The only Faith / Belief that pleases God is a fruit and gift of the Spirit given in New Birth Gal. 5:22; Eph. 2:8.

Before a person is Born of God nothing he does can please Him Rom. 8:8!

By your own lips you are not a believer! Just a sheep wannabe.

Nanja
July 3rd, 2017, 05:44 PM
By your own lips you are not a believer! Just a sheep wannabe.

Just as with any other child of the devil, the scriptures are hid from you 2 Cor. 4:3-4!

Epoisses
July 3rd, 2017, 06:11 PM
Just as with any other child of the devil, the scriptures are hid from you 2 Cor. 4:3-4!

There is an entire branch of your religion who's sole purpose is to redefine the word world!

jsanford108
July 3rd, 2017, 08:11 PM
All sin is atoned for in Christ! Those who have Christ by faith are cleansed from all sin while those who abide in unbelief are still in their sins. You fight against the truth with every post but your arguments get shot down over and over and over.

Was this meant to be directed at me?

Allow me to clarify my position, just in case.

Christ cannot have atoned for every sin. Simple logic illustrates this. If hell exists, which it does, then there must be sin that is not atoned for. Hell is a place of punishment for sin. If all sin is atoned for, then there can be no hell. The existence of hell therefore, negates the notion that all sins have been atoned for.

This is simple logic and fact. Substantiated by evidence throughout Scripture.

Robert Pate
July 3rd, 2017, 09:06 PM
Was this meant to be directed at me?

Allow me to clarify my position, just in case.

Christ cannot have atoned for every sin. Simple logic illustrates this. If hell exists, which it does, then there must be sin that is not atoned for. Hell is a place of punishment for sin. If all sin is atoned for, then there can be no hell. The existence of hell therefore, negates the notion that all sins have been atoned for.

This is simple logic and fact. Substantiated by evidence throughout Scripture.


If there is one sin that Jesus did not atone for then Jesus is Not Lord.

Why is it that you cannot believe what the Bible says? 1 John 2:2.

No one will go to hell because their sins have not been atoned for. What they will go to hell for is because they have rejected God's great free gift of salvation that has been provided for them by Jesus Christ.

Epoisses
July 3rd, 2017, 09:14 PM
Was this meant to be directed at me?

Allow me to clarify my position, just in case.

Christ cannot have atoned for every sin. Simple logic illustrates this. If hell exists, which it does, then there must be sin that is not atoned for. Hell is a place of punishment for sin. If all sin is atoned for, then there can be no hell. The existence of hell therefore, negates the notion that all sins have been atoned for.

This is simple logic and fact. Substantiated by evidence throughout Scripture.

This reminds me of the Calvinist double jeopardy argument that Christ could not have died for all sin because many end up in hell to be punished for their lives of sin. People end up in hell because of their unbelief in Christ not because of their lives of sin. Unbelief is the root cause of all sin not theft and adultery and coveting so if there is an unpardonable sin it is grieving the Holy Spirit by unbelief.

way 2 go
July 3rd, 2017, 10:54 PM
Was this meant to be directed at me? Allow me to clarify my position, just in case. Christ cannot have atoned for every sin. Simple logic illustrates this. If hell exists, which it does, then there must be sin that is not atoned for. Hell is a place of punishment for sin. If all sin is atoned for, then there can be no hell. The existence of hell therefore, negates the notion that all sins have been atoned for. This is simple logic and fact. Substantiated by evidence throughout Scripture. what limits Jesus atonement ?

Truster
July 3rd, 2017, 11:15 PM
what limits Jesus atonement ?

... for he shall save his people from their sins.

Brother Ducky
July 4th, 2017, 07:33 AM
This reminds me of the Calvinist double jeopardy argument that Christ could not have died for all sin because many end up in hell to be punished for their lives of sin. People end up in hell because of their unbelief in Christ not because of their lives of sin. Unbelief is the root cause of all sin not theft and adultery and coveting so if there is an unpardonable sin it is grieving the Holy Spirit by unbelief.

I believe Jesus said the unpardonable sin was blaspheming the Holy Spirit. But even so, if there is an unpardonable sin, and Jesus says there is, then Jesus could not have atoned for all sin.

Are you arguing that unbelief is not a sin? Belief is nowhere commanded?

Brother Ducky
July 4th, 2017, 07:45 AM
All sin is atoned for in Christ! Those who have Christ by faith are cleansed from all sin while those who abide in unbelief are still in their sins. You fight against the truth with every post but your arguments get shot down over and over and over.


What is atonement and what does it do?

jsanford108
July 4th, 2017, 07:51 AM
If there is one sin that Jesus did not atone for then Jesus is Not Lord.

Why is it that you cannot believe what the Bible says? 1 John 2:2.

No one will go to hell because their sins have not been atoned for. What they will go to hell for is because they have rejected God's great free gift of salvation that has been provided for them by Jesus Christ.

Is rejecting God's gift a sin?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

jsanford108
July 4th, 2017, 07:53 AM
This reminds me of the Calvinist double jeopardy argument that Christ could not have died for all sin because many end up in hell to be punished for their lives of sin. People end up in hell because of their unbelief in Christ not because of their lives of sin. Unbelief is the root cause of all sin not theft and adultery and coveting so if there is an unpardonable sin it is grieving the Holy Spirit by unbelief.

Is unbelief not a sin? If so, then not "all sins have been atoned for."


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

jsanford108
July 4th, 2017, 07:56 AM
what limits Jesus atonement ?

Nothing has limited Christ. However, people have provided inaccurate interpretations, which lead to false doctrines that contradict Scripture.

If a doctrine is contradictory, then it cannot be logical, and not based entirely on Scripture. God, as the author of logic, cannot be illogical. So He cannot have atoned for "all sin," yet damn people to Hell, for sin.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

beloved57
July 4th, 2017, 08:28 AM
gloryd


Well, God has done his part...atoned for all sin and reconciled all of mankind to Himself. That leaves but one thing left undone, which is for each of us to "be reconciled" to God.

A denial of Rom 5:10 that states those Christ died for are or have been reconciled to God by His Sons Death Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Robert Pate
July 4th, 2017, 08:29 AM
Nothing has limited Christ. However, people have provided inaccurate interpretations, which lead to false doctrines that contradict Scripture.

If a doctrine is contradictory, then it cannot be logical, and not based entirely on Scripture. God, as the author of logic, cannot be illogical. So He cannot have atoned for "all sin," yet damn people to Hell, for sin.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)


You seem to think that you have it all figured out. God's ways are not your ways, Isaiah 55:8.

It is all about faith. No faith, no salvation, John 8:24.

beloved57
July 4th, 2017, 08:35 AM
The forgiveness of sins is not yours unless it is received as a gift from God.

False teaching, those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies Rom 5:10 so they are forgiven of their sins while being enemies. Sin is not charged to the reconciled 2 Cor 5:19

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

And sins not imputed are forgiven Rom 4:7-8

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


So this manifests another pate falsehood against Truth !

Robert Pate
July 4th, 2017, 08:45 AM
You do. You believe that sinners Christ died for are still lost!

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

You are a sad case. You can't refute what I teach. All that you can do is make false accusations.

beloved57
July 4th, 2017, 09:42 AM
You are a sad case. You can't refute what I teach. All that you can do is make false accusations.
Your savior is the freewill of man because you teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost!

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

Charles94
July 4th, 2017, 10:01 AM
No one will go to hell because their sins have not been atoned for. What they will go to hell for is because they have rejected God's great free gift of salvation that has been provided for them by Jesus Christ.

What is painfully obvious, yet you don't seem to realize, is that rejecting God's command to believe in Jesus is a sin... God says to repent and believe, so if you don't do that, you are sinning and missing the mark.

You also have yet to explain how someone can be at enmity with God (Rom8:5-8) and yet love Him enough to want His gift of salvation. You're foolish to believe that people are "free" to choose anything at all, as if Donald Trump might have stepped into the voting booth and voted for Hillary or vice-versa. We choose based on who we are and based on what we love and understand. (1Cor2:14)

You think you became a Christian because you were smart enough to accept God's gift, but the scriptures say not to boast because His choice was foundational and it is because of Him that we are in Christ Jesus. (1Cor1:26-30) Jesus said the Pharisees could not come to Him because they were not His sheep (John10:26,27), so how does a Pharisee like Paul who has zeal without knowledge become a sheep so that he can hear and believe? It takes a miracle to change someone's nature - that's why it is impossible with man. (Jer13:23, Luke18:27)


You seem to think that you have it all figured out. God's ways are not your ways, Isaiah 55:8.

God is logical. You should take your own advice and actually read Isa55:8. Heck, don't stop there.

Isa55:11So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

God's word cannot be returned void by human will. The human will isn't strong enough.

You posture and preen and claim to stand willing to judge your Creator as unjust for taking credit away from Lydia and her free will by claiming to first "open her heart" to the gospel. (Acts16:14) If the God of the Bible really demands credit for "giving the increase" in His Church (1Cor3:7), then you are eager to condemn Him.

Watching you and the rest of your ungodly cohorts who sneer and say "Does the Most High really know?" (Psa73:11-12) pathetically attempt to judge the Judge at the last day will probably be comical...

You still have time to repent and turn to the real Jesus of the Bible and not your imaginary one, but I suspect you still love Aristotle too much.

patrick jane
July 4th, 2017, 10:08 AM
What is painfully obvious, yet you don't seem to realize, is that rejecting God's command to believe in Jesus is a sin... God says to repent and believe, so if you don't do that, you are sinning and missing the mark.

You also have yet to explain how someone can be at enmity with God (Rom8:5-8) and yet love Him enough to want His gift of salvation. You're foolish to believe that people are "free" to choose anything at all, as if Donald Trump might have stepped into the voting booth and voted for Hillary or vice-versa. We choose based on who we are and based on what we love and understand. (1Cor2:14)

You think you became a Christian because you were smart enough to accept God's gift, but the scriptures say not to boast because His choice was foundational and it is because of Him that we are in Christ Jesus. (1Cor1:26-30) Jesus said the Pharisees could not come to Him because they were not His sheep (John10:26,27), so how does a Pharisee like Paul who has zeal without knowledge become a sheep so that he can hear and believe? It takes a miracle to change someone's nature - that's why it is impossible with man. (Jer13:23, Luke18:27)



God is logical. You should take your own advice and actually read Isa55:8. Heck, don't stop there.

Isa55:11So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

God's word cannot be returned void by human will. The human will isn't strong enough.

You posture and preen and claim to stand willing to judge your Creator as unjust for taking credit away from Lydia and her free will by claiming to first "open her heart" to the gospel. (Acts16:14) If the God of the Bible really demands credit for "giving the increase" in His Church (1Cor3:7), then you are eager to condemn Him.

Watching you and the rest of your ungodly cohorts who sneer and say "Does the Most High really know?" (Psa73:11-12) pathetically attempt to judge the Judge at the last day will probably be comical...

You still have time to repent and turn to the real Jesus of the Bible and not your imaginary one, but I suspect you still love Aristotle too much.You believe in a god that created robots

jamie
July 4th, 2017, 10:22 AM
I believe Jesus said the unpardonable sin was blaspheming the Holy Spirit. But even so, if there is an unpardonable sin, and Jesus says there is, then Jesus could not have atoned for all sin.


Why not?

jamie
July 4th, 2017, 10:25 AM
So He cannot have atoned for "all sin," yet damn people to Hell, for sin.


Hell is the grave symbolizing death.

Robert Pate
July 4th, 2017, 10:38 AM
Jesus said that he came into the world to save sinners. If you don't see yourself as a sinner you don't qualify. I suppose that is why Paul referred to himself as "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15. Jesus saves sinners, not robots. Calvinist believe that everyone is a robot, including God.

way 2 go
July 4th, 2017, 11:40 AM
Nothing has limited Christ. However, people have provided inaccurate interpretations, which lead to false doctrines that contradict Scripture.

If a doctrine is contradictory, then it cannot be logical, and not based entirely on Scripture. God, as the author of logic, cannot be illogical. So He cannot have atoned for "all sin," yet damn people to Hell, for sin.




:sherlock:

please explain as there is something missing

Nothing limited Jesus atonement and not all sin is atoned for

Robert Pate
July 4th, 2017, 11:49 AM
:sherlock:

please explain as there is something missing

Nothing limited Jesus atonement and not all sin is atoned for


If Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2, then we must conclude that all sin has been atoned for.

Charles94
July 4th, 2017, 11:57 AM
All five-pointers are damned because they reject Christ as the savior of the world. They basically declare that Christ's mission to save a lost world and atone for all sin was a failure.

Hate that I missed this gem before.

Jesus is the only Savior available for the world, but logically, He remains the Savior only of the saved. The unsaved don't have a savior, by definition. A savior is one who saves. This shouldn't be brain surgery...

OTOH, if God intended to save every single person through Jesus' death (as you say), then God's plan was a complete failure, as only some are saved. If the sin of refusing to believe in His Son was truly atoned for, God could never condemn or cast anyone into Hell, but only sadly accept their free will choice to turn away from Him and go to Hell willingly. (But that's not the scriptural picture we are given, rather it is God who actively shuts the door and God who casts into Hell - God hates these sinners. (Psa5:5, Psa11:5))

But contrary to your view of a passive God who means well and offers to save every single person but doesn't seem to get very involved with individuals in space and time, the scriptures do teach of One who "works all things after the counsel of His will." (Eph1:12)

Isa46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,
Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it."

Scripture teaches that God can easily frustrate man's will but that His plans cannot fail. (How could they, since He has declared the ends from the beginning?)

Psa33:10-11The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing;
He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect.
The counsel of the Lord stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations.

Psa135:5-6 For I know that the Lord is great, And our Lord is above all gods.
Whatever the Lord pleases He does, In heaven and in earth, In the seas and in all deep places.(Psa115:3; Dan4:35)

God does whatever he pleases in heaven and earth, so if it pleased Him to save every person, He could do that. But that doesn't seem to be His intent in scripture.

When Paul was encouraging Timothy, he didn't appeal to Timothy to trust his own free will, but rather to trust the purposes of this God who declares the end from the beginning:

2Tim1:8-9 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began...

There is an alternative offered in scripture to your view, that instead of one homogeneous world toward whom God offers vague well-wishing, there are two distinct subsets with different purposes:

Rom9:22-23 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory...?

You don't like that. It's not very egalitarian. You would prefer a smaller god-ling who is constrained by time who cannot declare the end from the beginning so that everyone could have a "chance" of choosing to be a vessel of mercy. That's why I keep harping on your devotion to Aristotle - when you read the Bible through the lens of human philosophy, it does seem unfair for God to love and choose only some. But the Bible repeatedly says that that is what He does - He sees a world where no one at all will come to Him, so being mighty to save (Zep3:17, Isa63:1), He opens and softens hearts so that some will certainly come and be saved.

Matt1:21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He WILL save His people from their sins.

If Jesus' mission was to save every single person from their sins, He failed. But His mission was always based on a love for His people, the Church. (Eph5:25)


All five-pointers are damned because they reject Christ as the savior of the world. They basically declare that Christ's mission to save a lost world and atone for all sin was a failure. That's like the worst sin you can commit.

I missed your scripture reference on how it could be "like, the worst sin you can commit?" Is it only the worst because you personally disagree with it?

So you cheerfully declare all 5pointers damned, not because of scripture, but because of your personal pride? Your arrogance knows no bounds...

Calvinism should not be a salvation issue at all - it's only useful as it helps to explain how the whole bible fits together. It only becomes a salvation issue when someone like Pate denies SOOOO much of scripture to hold onto to those 8 or so verses (taken out of context) that he so cherishes...and worse, aspires to judge God as unjust if God won't submit to Pate's moral authority. That is simply madness.

If Jesus said the OT was about Him, then I believe it. If the God who inspired the Psalms says that it is the ungodly who try to mock him by saying, "Does God really know?", then I will affirm that God really declares(/ordains) your end before you are born, even if it enrages you as you hold tight to Aristotle's ethical teaching. If the scriptures really teach that if Jesus was given up for us, then we will certainly receive all things for salvation (such as justification), then either every single person will certainly receive justification and salvation, or else Rom8:32-34 was written only about the Church and not every single person.

Charles94
July 4th, 2017, 12:02 PM
Calvinist believe that everyone is a robot, including God.

God does as He pleases. Man does as he pleases, which is a problem for natural man without the Spirit unless God chooses to soften his heart and change his affections.

You know, the scriptures say there will be no sin in Heaven. (Rev21:27)

I guess that means there is no "free will", so you wouldn't like Heaven anyway, Pate.

Charles94
July 4th, 2017, 12:10 PM
You believe in a god that created robots

Aw, from someone with "Patrick Jane" as an avatar, I would have hoped for a more thoughtful (or at least more clever) response. Your shallowness comes as a huge disappointment.

We are not robots but we also do not choose randomly.

If your tradition teaches that we can believe and be included as Jesus' sheep, why does Jesus teach the opposite? What does Jesus mean when He taught that "good trees produce good fruit"?

If Donald Trump walked into the voting booth last November believing himself to be the best candidate and Hillary to be the Bad Girl of Babylon, what exactly do you mean when you say he was "free" to vote for Hillary?

Charles94
July 4th, 2017, 12:12 PM
If Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2, then we must conclude that all sin has been atoned for.

or else, that you are misinterpreting 1John2:2 in a way that conflicts with hundreds of other verses, which should help correct you when you are that far off base on 1John2:2, if only you would read the rest of scripture...

patrick jane
July 4th, 2017, 12:20 PM
or else, that you are misinterpreting 1John2:2 in a way that conflicts with hundreds of other verses, which should help correct you when you are that far off base on 1John2:2, if only you would read the rest of scripture...1 Timothy 4:10 KJV -

Robert Pate
July 4th, 2017, 12:33 PM
God does as He pleases. Man does as he pleases, which is a problem for natural man without the Spirit unless God chooses to soften his heart and change his affections.

You know, the scriptures say there will be no sin in Heaven. (Rev21:27)

I guess that means there is no "free will", so you wouldn't like Heaven anyway, Pate.


God does nothing outside of his holy, just, merciful, righteous nature and character. God cannot and will not sin against his holy law, nor will he sin against his created beings.

Only those that hear and believe the Gospel are given the Holy Spirit. There will not be any sin in heaven because we will be changed and will be like him, 1 Corinthians 15:52.

Robert Pate
July 4th, 2017, 12:35 PM
or else, that you are misinterpreting 1John2:2 in a way that conflicts with hundreds of other verses, which should help correct you when you are that far off base on 1John2:2, if only you would read the rest of scripture...

There is nothing wrong with 1 John 2:2. But there is plenty wrong with what you believe.

Charles94
July 4th, 2017, 01:17 PM
1 Timothy 4:10 KJV -

Yeah, I liked that episode of the Mentalist where they were honoring a lifeguard as the savior of all 12 people involved in a boating accident, and especially those 2 that actually were saved and lived.

Of course, there wasn't an episode like that, because no one ever really talks like that outside of Calvinism debates. That is a problematic translation to put that much weight on.

I think Skeat's take on the Greek word Malista (as a means of clarification in some contexts) makes more sense, and so a better translation of that verse might be "...because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specifically meaning believers..."

It's a bit unusual for "God" to be identified as the Savior in the NT rather than Jesus specifically, so it's also possible that "Sustainer" is a better English equivalent in that context than "Savior," as God provides for believers spiritually as well as physically. (Matt5:45)

But if you are an honest man arguing in good faith who believes your interpretation of that verse enough to pray in front of your church and your family that you thank God for being the Savior of Judas and the unrepentant child molesters, and especially for being your Savior, then by all means, stick with it. Don't let me stop you if you somehow find that to be a source of great assurance. But if you just pull it out because it looks on the surface like it disagrees with Calvinism, but then sweep it back under the rug immediately afterwards - then hey, you know God sees that...

Assuming you do believe that God is the Savior of the unsaved, I would be sincerely curious to read more about how that works out in your head. When most noncalvinists talk about Jesus as the "Savior" of the world and "atoning" for all sin, they translate it almost subconsciously as meaning "potential Savior" and "potential atonement" even though there is zero research into the Greek to support those sorts of corrections or adjustments to the translated language.

Brother Ducky
July 4th, 2017, 01:21 PM
Why not?

There can be no atonement for sin that is unforgivable.

If there is one sin with no atonement then it follows that not all sin is atoned for.

All sin minus one sin is not all sin.

jsanford108
July 4th, 2017, 01:32 PM
You seem to think that you have it all figured out. God's ways are not your ways, Isaiah 55:8.

It is all about faith. No faith, no salvation, John 8:24.

I have never stated anything to the contrary.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Robert Pate
July 4th, 2017, 01:37 PM
Yeah, I liked that episode of the Mentalist where they were honoring a lifeguard as the savior of all 12 people involved in a boating accident, and especially those 2 that actually were saved and lived.

Of course, there wasn't an episode like that, because no one ever really talks like that outside of Calvinism debates. That is a problematic translation to put that much weight on.

I think Skeat's take on the Greek word Malista (as a means of clarification in some contexts) makes more sense, and so a better translation of that verse might be "...because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specifically meaning believers..."

It's a bit unusual for "God" to be identified as the Savior in the NT rather than Jesus specifically, so it's also possible that "Sustainer" is a better English equivalent in that context than "Savior," as God provides for believers spiritually as well as physically. (Matt5:45)

But if you are an honest man arguing in good faith who believes your interpretation of that verse enough to pray in front of your church and your family that you thank God for being the Savior of Judas and the unrepentant child molesters, and especially for being your Savior, then by all means, stick with it. Don't let me stop you if you somehow find that to be a source of great assurance. But if you just pull it out because it looks on the surface like it disagrees with Calvinism, but then sweep it back under the rug immediately afterwards - then hey, you know God sees that...

Assuming you do believe that God is the Savior of the unsaved, I would be sincerely curious to read more about how that works out in your head. When most noncalvinists talk about Jesus as the "Savior" of the world and "atoning" for all sin, they translate it almost subconsciously as meaning "potential Savior" and "potential atonement" even though there is zero research into the Greek to support those sorts of corrections or adjustments to the translated language.


Try this, Jesus is the provider of salvation for all men. Jesus makes salvation available to all who do nothing more than... "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13. This means that God is off the hook for the salvation of fallen man. God has done all that he can do for the salvation of fallen man. He even gives his only begotten Son. The ball is now in humanities court.

jsanford108
July 4th, 2017, 01:38 PM
Why not?

Jesus could have atoned for every sin of the world, but He did not. Why? Because that would be unjust. That is why Christ mentions hell, an unforgivable sin, etc. To have absolved all would be unjust to Himself. And Christ cannot be contradictory or unjust. Thus, He did not die for the sins of the every single individual.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

jsanford108
July 4th, 2017, 01:43 PM
:sherlock:

please explain as there is something missing

Nothing limited Jesus atonement and not all sin is atoned for

Jesus could have died and atoned for every sin. He is limitless. To have done so would have been unjust.

Christ mentions hell, an unforgivable sin, etc. If Christ died for every sin, then He is now contradicting His very Words, making them untrue.

Christ cannot be unjust or dishonest. He is eternally good. Therefore, Christ cannot have gone against His Words, nor died for every sin of every individual because that would be unjust to Himself.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Charles94
July 4th, 2017, 01:55 PM
what limits Jesus atonement ?

I'll play.

There's nothing external that limits Jesus' atonement, but His intention in offering Himself could be a possible limiting factor.

In John17:9,20, Jesus prays for only those people who believe or will believe. If He is only offering Himself for that subset of human beings in space and time, then it makes sense to limit His High Priestly prayer accordingly and refuse to make intercession for the subset of people who will never believe.

Rom8:32-34 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

Again, if Jesus was delivered up for us all, then who could condemn us, as those for whom Jesus died will surely receive all things for salvation, including justification. But this promise has nothing to offer unbelievers, who are condemned "already" (John3:18).

Gal3:13Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”)...

Matt25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

If Jesus became a curse for those goats on His left, how could they still cursed and told to depart?

The value of His sacrifice was infinite and could have covered every single person, but the Bible tells us that some are "condemned already" and God's wrath abides against them, suggesting that God is not in a state of "at-one-ment" with certain people - He is certainly not reconciled to them.

Heb10:12-14 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Hebrews tells us that "by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified." Please walk me through how this could logically include the enemies that He is waiting to make His footstool? Please don't skip steps so I can follow along.

Charles94
July 4th, 2017, 01:59 PM
There is nothing wrong with 1 John 2:2. But there is plenty wrong with what you believe.

So address what I believe. I have addressed your trainwreck take on 1John2:2 and Heb2:9 and so on in great detail. I have given you plenty to work with, so pick something and explain why God really "doesn't know" and my take on Psa73:11-12 is wrong, or why Romans9 uses language like "the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" when you clearly don't think it means Hell?


There will not be any sin in heaven because we will be changed and will be like him, 1 Corinthians 15:52.

If there won't be sin in heaven because our glorified bodies won't desire sin, would that mean He is turning us into robots? If it's ok for there to be no free will in Heaven, maybe free will isn't much to fight over?

Robert Pate
July 4th, 2017, 02:17 PM
So address what I believe. I have addressed your trainwreck take on 1John2:2 and Heb2:9 and so on in great detail. I have given you plenty to work with, so pick something and explain why God really "doesn't know" and my take on Psa73:11-12 is wrong, or why Romans9 uses language like "the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction" when you clearly don't think it means Hell?



If there won't be sin in heaven because our glorified bodies won't desire sin, would that mean He is turning us into robots? If it's ok for there to be no free will in Heaven, maybe free will isn't much to fight over?


If the angels in heaven have a free will we will have a free will also, because we are greater than the angels.

Charles94
July 4th, 2017, 02:25 PM
Try this, Jesus is the provider of salvation for all men.

He is the only Savior available to the world, but He is no "potential Savior." If He is only the provider of possible salvation to the unsaved, then it is still no great assurance to believers that He provides the same uncertain salvation to them.

He is more than a provider of salvation. He does not passively make it available, so that clever, spiritual men can come pick up a bottle of salvation at their leisure. He opens and softens hearts. He opens eyes. He seeks out His lost sheep and unfailingly brings them back. He gives the increase in His Church. It is because of Him (not ourselves) that we are in Christ Jesus.

You claim all the credit for your personal belief but never explain why God keeps taking credit for conversions in the scriptures, if that is supposed to be so unjust of Him.


This means that God is off the hook for the salvation of fallen man. God has done all that he can do for the salvation of fallen man. He even gives his only begotten Son. The ball is now in humanities court.

1) With whom exactly would God be "on the hook"?

Again, you are eager to judge the One who told Job, “Who is this who darkens counsel by words without knowledge?" Or the One who answered a similarly foolish argument with Rom9:20 "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?' ”

You say delusional things like this because you believe God is in the defendant's chair and must meet your approval. You are starting from a foundation of human philosophy and trying to adjust scripture to fit. Until you repent of this mindset, you are in danger from the God of the Bible, who laughs with derision at your arrogance.

2) Luke14 includes the parable of the Great Supper. A great man invites many to come to be his guests, but all refuse (in ways that subtly mock him).

Luke14:23 Then the master said to the servant, ‘Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

If the master is willing to "compel" some to come in, does that make him evil? Who does the master in the story represent?

Charles94
July 4th, 2017, 02:32 PM
If the angels in heaven have a free will we will have a free will also, because we are greater than the angels.

So...you're saying Satan's prideful fall was not a sin?

Or that you think you will be "free" to fall and be cast out of Heaven?

Robert Pate
July 4th, 2017, 02:34 PM
He is the only Savior available to the world, but He is no "potential Savior." If He is only the provider of possible salvation to the unsaved, then it is still no great assurance to believers that He provides the same uncertain salvation to them.

He is more than a provider of salvation. He does not passively make it available, so that clever, spiritual men can come pick up a bottle of salvation at their leisure. He opens and softens hearts. He opens eyes. He seeks out His lost sheep and unfailingly brings them back. He gives the increase in His Church. It is because of Him (not ourselves) that we are in Christ Jesus.

You claim all the credit for your personal belief but never explain why God keeps taking credit for conversions in the scriptures, if that is supposed to be so unjust of Him.



1) With whom exactly would God be "on the hook"?

Again, you are eager to judge the One who told Job, “Who is this who darkens counsel by words without knowledge?" Or the One who answered a similarly foolish argument with Rom9:20 "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, 'Why have you made me like this?' ”

You say delusional things like this because you believe God is in the defendant's chair and must meet your approval. You are starting from a foundation of human philosophy and trying to adjust scripture to fit. Until you repent of this mindset, you are in danger from the God of the Bible, who laughs with derision at your arrogance.

2) Luke14 includes the parable of the Great Supper. A great man invites many to come to be his guests, but all refuse (in ways that subtly mock him).

Luke14:23 Then the master said to the servant, ‘Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

If the master is willing to "compel" some to come in, does that make him evil? Who does the master in the story represent?


Luke 14:23 teaches free will. The Gospel goes into all of the world, but only some respond. No one is forced to come in. God does not impose salvation on anyone.

Robert Pate
July 4th, 2017, 02:38 PM
So...you're saying Satan's prideful fall was not a sin?

Or that you think you will be "free" to fall and be cast out of Heaven?

Satan by his own free will chose to sin against God, just like Adam. Neither one lost their free will in the fall. What they lost was their relationship with God.

jamie
July 4th, 2017, 05:16 PM
There can be no atonement for sin that is unforgivable.

If there is one sin with no atonement then it follows that not all sin is atoned for.

All sin minus one sin is not all sin.


"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." (Matthew 12:31-32)

Blasphemy against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or the age to come, the millennial Sabbath.

It will be forgiven for the Great Day.

Robert Pate
July 4th, 2017, 05:25 PM
"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come." (Matthew 12:31-32)

Blasphemy against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven in this age or the age to come, the millennial Sabbath.

It will be forgiven for the Great Day.


Blasphemy against the Gospel is blasphemy against he Holy Spirit.

Epoisses
July 4th, 2017, 07:00 PM
What is atonement and what does it do?

It doesn't do anything for unbelievers.

Epoisses
July 4th, 2017, 07:04 PM
Hate that I missed this gem before.

Jesus is the only Savior available for the world, but logically, He remains the Savior only of the saved. The unsaved don't have a savior, by definition. A savior is one who saves. This shouldn't be brain surgery...

OTOH, if God intended to save every single person through Jesus' death (as you say), then God's plan was a complete failure, as only some are saved. If the sin of refusing to believe in His Son was truly atoned for, God could never condemn or cast anyone into Hell, but only sadly accept their free will choice to turn away from Him and go to Hell willingly. (But that's not the scriptural picture we are given, rather it is God who actively shuts the door and God who casts into Hell - God hates these sinners. (Psa5:5, Psa11:5))

But contrary to your view of a passive God who means well and offers to save every single person but doesn't seem to get very involved with individuals in space and time, the scriptures do teach of One who "works all things after the counsel of His will." (Eph1:12)

Isa46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,
Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it."

Scripture teaches that God can easily frustrate man's will but that His plans cannot fail. (How could they, since He has declared the ends from the beginning?)

Psa33:10-11The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing;
He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect.
The counsel of the Lord stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations.

Psa135:5-6 For I know that the Lord is great, And our Lord is above all gods.
Whatever the Lord pleases He does, In heaven and in earth, In the seas and in all deep places.(Psa115:3; Dan4:35)

God does whatever he pleases in heaven and earth, so if it pleased Him to save every person, He could do that. But that doesn't seem to be His intent in scripture.

When Paul was encouraging Timothy, he didn't appeal to Timothy to trust his own free will, but rather to trust the purposes of this God who declares the end from the beginning:

2Tim1:8-9 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began...

There is an alternative offered in scripture to your view, that instead of one homogeneous world toward whom God offers vague well-wishing, there are two distinct subsets with different purposes:

Rom9:22-23 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory...?

You don't like that. It's not very egalitarian. You would prefer a smaller god-ling who is constrained by time who cannot declare the end from the beginning so that everyone could have a "chance" of choosing to be a vessel of mercy. That's why I keep harping on your devotion to Aristotle - when you read the Bible through the lens of human philosophy, it does seem unfair for God to love and choose only some. But the Bible repeatedly says that that is what He does - He sees a world where no one at all will come to Him, so being mighty to save (Zep3:17, Isa63:1), He opens and softens hearts so that some will certainly come and be saved.

Matt1:21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He WILL save His people from their sins.

If Jesus' mission was to save every single person from their sins, He failed. But His mission was always based on a love for His people, the Church. (Eph5:25)

I missed your scripture reference on how it could be "like, the worst sin you can commit?" Is it only the worst because you personally disagree with it?

So you cheerfully declare all 5pointers damned, not because of scripture, but because of your personal pride? Your arrogance knows no bounds...

Calvinism should not be a salvation issue at all - it's only useful as it helps to explain how the whole bible fits together. It only becomes a salvation issue when someone like Pate denies SOOOO much of scripture to hold onto to those 8 or so verses (taken out of context) that he so cherishes...and worse, aspires to judge God as unjust if God won't submit to Pate's moral authority. That is simply madness.

If Jesus said the OT was about Him, then I believe it. If the God who inspired the Psalms says that it is the ungodly who try to mock him by saying, "Does God really know?", then I will affirm that God really declares(/ordains) your end before you are born, even if it enrages you as you hold tight to Aristotle's ethical teaching. If the scriptures really teach that if Jesus was given up for us, then we will certainly receive all things for salvation (such as justification), then either every single person will certainly receive justification and salvation, or else Rom8:32-34 was written only about the Church and not every single person.

Another blow-hard post. 5-point Calvinists are damned by their own admission because they don't believe that Christ died for the whole world. Unbelief is the sin that gets you lopped off the olive tree both Jew and Gentile alike.

way 2 go
July 4th, 2017, 07:15 PM
I'll play.

There's nothing external that limits Jesus' atonement, but His intention in offering Himself could be a possible limiting factor.

In John17:9,20, Jesus prays for only those people who believe or will believe. If He is only offering Himself for that subset of human beings in space and time, then it makes sense to limit His High Priestly prayer accordingly and refuse to make intercession for the subset of people who will never believe.

Rom8:32-34 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things? Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies. Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

Again, if Jesus was delivered up for us all, then who could condemn us, as those for whom Jesus died will surely receive all things for salvation, including justification. But this promise has nothing to offer unbelievers, who are condemned "already" (John3:18).

Gal3:13Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”)...

Matt25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

If Jesus became a curse for those goats on His left, how could they still cursed and told to depart?

The value of His sacrifice was infinite and could have covered every single person, but the Bible tells us that some are "condemned already" and God's wrath abides against them, suggesting that God is not in a state of "at-one-ment" with certain people - He is certainly not reconciled to them.

Heb10:12-14 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Hebrews tells us that "by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified." Please walk me through how this could logically include the enemies that He is waiting to make His footstool? Please don't skip steps so I can follow along.

Jesus atoned for all sin but not all sins will be paid for by Jesus.

Brother Ducky
July 4th, 2017, 07:44 PM
It doesn't do anything for unbelievers.

OK. What is atonement and what does it do for believers and why does it do nothing for unbelievers?

Robert Pate
July 6th, 2017, 09:51 AM
OK. What is atonement and what does it do for believers and why does it do nothing for unbelievers?

Atonement means to make payment for sins. Jesus, in our name and on our behalf has atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. All that believe that Jesus has atoned for their sins are justified. Those that don't are the lost and are still in their sins.

Charles94
July 10th, 2017, 10:26 AM
Jesus atoned for all sin but not all sins will be paid for by Jesus.


Atonement means to make payment for sins. Jesus, in our name and on our behalf has atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. All that believe that Jesus has atoned for their sins are justified. Those that don't are the lost and are still in their sins.

Robert correctly says that atonement means to make payment for sins. (I'm as surprised as anyone.)

God is the offended party - if Jesus' atonement was accepted by God, then we are reconciled to God and at-one with Him. God will demand no further payment as He is satisfied with Jesus' atonement.

You guys still can't explain why someone for whom atonement has been made would still be "condemned already" and God's wrath still abides on them...

Robert Pate
July 10th, 2017, 01:25 PM
Robert correctly says that atonement means to make payment for sins. (I'm as surprised as anyone.)

God is the offended party - if Jesus' atonement was accepted by God, then we are reconciled to God and at-one with Him. God will demand no further payment as He is satisfied with Jesus' atonement.

You guys still can't explain why someone for whom atonement has been made would still be "condemned already" and God's wrath still abides on them...

Simply because they have rejected God's great free gift of salvation. It is indeed a serious thing to reject Christ and his free gift of salvation. Maybe those that reject deserve to go to hell.

way 2 go
July 10th, 2017, 05:56 PM
Robert correctly says that atonement means to make payment for sins. (I'm as surprised as anyone.)

God is the offended party - if Jesus' atonement was accepted by God, then we are reconciled to God and at-one with Him. God will demand no further payment as He is satisfied with Jesus' atonement.

You guys still can't explain why someone for whom atonement has been made would still be "condemned already" and God's wrath still abides on them...

transfer of atonement is by faith

Jesus atoned for all sin but not all sins will be paid for by Jesus.

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Epoisses
July 10th, 2017, 06:05 PM
Robert correctly says that atonement means to make payment for sins. (I'm as surprised as anyone.)

God is the offended party - if Jesus' atonement was accepted by God, then we are reconciled to God and at-one with Him. God will demand no further payment as He is satisfied with Jesus' atonement.

You guys still can't explain why someone for whom atonement has been made would still be "condemned already" and God's wrath still abides on them...

Because we do not receive what Christ accomplished until we receive it by faith. The Calvinist will always make faith out to be a gift but this is only one side of the coin. The bible presents faith or belief as a command 20 times for every time it is presented as a gift so our presentation of the gospel should reflect this. Sinners are commanded to believe in Christ as if it were all up to them. Jesus commanded faith for every miracle he performed and was very works based in his presentation of the gospel. It's just the way it is.

Robert Pate
July 10th, 2017, 06:44 PM
transfer of atonement is by faith

Jesus atoned for all sin but not all sins will be paid for by Jesus.

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

The Bible makes it clear that all of the sins of the world have been atoned for, 1 John 2:2. However, nothing is ours until it is received by faith.

way 2 go
July 10th, 2017, 07:27 PM
The Bible makes it clear that all of the sins of the world have been atoned for, 1 John 2:2. However, nothing is ours until it is received by faith.
1 John 2:2 (https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1%20John%202.2).

Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Robert Pate
July 11th, 2017, 07:00 AM
1 John 2:2 (https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/1%20John%202.2).

Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

God says, "This is my only begotten Son, believe on him".

Charles94
July 11th, 2017, 06:55 PM
transfer of atonement is by faith

This is simply nonsense. Where is atonement ever said to be "transferred" in scripture? If the Father accepted Jesus' sacrifice, then atonement was accomplished. It is a transaction between the Father and Son and all debts are considered paid.

Heb10:13-14...from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

The cross only accomplished something for those who are being sanctified in space and time. Until you can explain what that one offering accomplished for His enemies (and why He refused to pray for the "world" in John17:9), you are simply making up an unscriptural system.


Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John3:17-18 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already...

If the world means "every single person" and Jesus did not come to condemn the world, then who is condemning these unbelievers "already?" Why isn't the Father on the same page as the Son?

Charles94
July 11th, 2017, 06:56 PM
The Bible makes it clear that all of the sins of the world have been atoned for, 1 John 2:2. However, nothing is ours until it is received by faith.

It does NOT say that the sins are "potentially" atoned for. No matter how many times you misquote that verse, it still does not speak of "potential" atonement nor a "potential" Savior.

Epoisses
July 11th, 2017, 08:40 PM
It does NOT say that the sins are "potentially" atoned for. No matter how many times you misquote that verse, it still does not speak of "potential" atonement nor a "potential" Savior.

All of the sins of the world are atoned for in Christ. Those that believe in Christ, come to repentance and are converted have all their sins blotted out. Calvinists make the conversion experience as something that Christ did on the cross which is stupid. Your beliefs are stupid! They have to be indoctrinated to be received because they are no where in the scriptures.

Potter's Clay
July 11th, 2017, 09:54 PM
All of the sins of the world are atoned for in Christ. Those that believe in Christ, come to repentance and are converted have all their sins blotted out. Calvinists make the conversion experience as something that Christ did on the cross which is stupid. Your beliefs are stupid! They have to be indoctrinated to be received because they are no where in the scriptures.

Can you first establish Biblical evidence of an unregenerate person "accepting" Christ in exchange for Atonement before we call sound theology "stupid"?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Epoisses
July 12th, 2017, 06:15 AM
Can you first establish Biblical evidence of an unregenerate person "accepting" Christ in exchange for Atonement before we call sound theology "stupid"?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

If you will establish how what Christ accomplished on the cross automatically and without fail manifests itself in the lives of believers. You would of course have to ignore every verse where believers not unregenerates can resist the Holy Spirit and fall from grace. The verses on falling from grace by themselves refute all of Calvinism because unbelievers and unregenerates don't have grace!

Answer my question, the same one that has been put to every Calvinist for the last 400 years.

Potter's Clay
July 12th, 2017, 10:49 AM
If you will establish how what Christ accomplished on the cross automatically and without fail manifests itself in the lives of believers. You would of course have to ignore every verse where believers not unregenerates can resist the Holy Spirit and fall from grace. The verses on falling from grace by themselves refute all of Calvinism because unbelievers and unregenerates don't have grace!

Answer my question, the same one that has been put to every Calvinist for the last 400 years.

I would be delighted if you would list verses of believers falling from grace if that is what you are claiming.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

beloved57
July 12th, 2017, 11:25 AM
The Bible makes it clear that all of the sins of the world have been atoned for, 1 John 2:2. However, nothing is ours until it is received by faith.

False comments ! Those Christ died for are atoned for, reconciled to God while they are enemies hating God and rejecting Him Rom 5:10. So they received the Gift of Atonement while hating and rejecting God !

Robert Pate
July 12th, 2017, 11:29 AM
False comments ! Those Christ died for are atoned for, reconciled to God while they are enemies hating God and rejecting Him Rom 5:10. So they received the Gift of Atonement while hating and rejecting God !

You think that scripture eliminates scripture and then you also believe that heaven is going to be full of Christ rejecters like yourself.

beloved57
July 12th, 2017, 11:36 AM
You think that scripture eliminates scripture and then you also believe that heaven is going to be full of Christ rejecters like yourself.

I think you reject the Truth Rom 5:10 !

Epoisses
July 12th, 2017, 12:48 PM
I would be delighted if you would list verses of believers falling from grace if that is what you are claiming.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Galatians 5:4 right off the top of my head and if I recall the Galatians were believers. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Also Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Potter's Clay
July 12th, 2017, 05:15 PM
Galatians 5:4 right off the top of my head and if I recall the Galatians were believers. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Also Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

In Galatians 5:4, they may profess to be believers, but we cannot conclude that they have true faith. If they do have true faith, then there is a contradiction with John 10:28 where we clearly understand that no one can be plucked from the Father's hand.

In Luke 8:13, a similar circumstance is occurring. Just like in today's times, people profess to believe, but we know by their fruits that their hearts have not been regenerated. That's why it's necessary to understand that humans were born dead in trespasses and sins according to Ephesians 2:1. In Romans, we learn that no one is righteous, and the only path to know righteousness is by being born again.

What does being born again mean?
This is a complete renewal of our hearts so that we know righteousness. This could not have occurred from a choice made by a person who only knows sin. There is no evidence to suggest that in the Bible.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

way 2 go
July 12th, 2017, 05:32 PM
This is simply nonsense. Where is atonement ever said to be "transferred" in scripture? If the Father accepted Jesus' sacrifice, then atonement was accomplished. It is a transaction between the Father and Son and all debts are considered paid.

Heb10:13-14...from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

The cross only accomplished something for those who are being sanctified in space and time. Until you can explain what that one offering accomplished for His enemies (and why He refused to pray for the "world" in John17:9), you are simply making up an unscriptural system.



John3:17-18 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already...

If the world means "every single person" and Jesus did not come to condemn the world, then who is condemning these unbelievers "already?" Why isn't the Father on the same page as the Son?

are you a universalist ?

Epoisses
July 12th, 2017, 06:14 PM
In Galatians 5:4, they may profess to be believers, but we cannot conclude that they have true faith. If they do have true faith, then there is a contradiction with John 10:28 where we clearly understand that no one can be plucked from the Father's hand.

In Luke 8:13, a similar circumstance is occurring. Just like in today's times, people profess to believe, but we know by their fruits that their hearts have not been regenerated. That's why it's necessary to understand that humans were born dead in trespasses and sins according to Ephesians 2:1. In Romans, we learn that no one is righteous, and the only path to know righteousness is by being born again.

What does being born again mean?
This is a complete renewal of our hearts so that we know righteousness. This could not have occurred from a choice made by a person who only knows sin. There is no evidence to suggest that in the Bible.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

I didn't think you would address the verses seriously. To be a member of any church in the 1st century meant receiving the Holy Spirit with power after Pentecost and placing one's life in mortal danger. It wasn't like today where we get lattes in the parlor before church. In the council of Christ to the seven churches of Asia minor he rebuked every church except for Philadelphia which bore the name of brotherly love. He didn't tell them that believers never fall away. Calvinist doctrines with their golden parachute beliefs are no where to be found in scripture.

Potter's Clay
July 12th, 2017, 06:18 PM
I didn't think you would address the verses seriously. To be a member of any church in the 1st century meant receiving the Holy Spirit with power after Pentecost and placing one's life in mortal danger. It wasn't like today where we get lattes in the parlor before church. In the council of Christ to the seven churches of Asia minor he rebuked every church except for Philadelphia which bore the name of brotherly love. He didn't tell them that believers never fall away. Calvinist doctrines with their golden parachute beliefs are no where to be found in scripture.

I would defer back to my original inquiry because I have not found Biblical support for the notion that a believer can lose salvation or gain salvation from his/her own doings.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Epoisses
July 12th, 2017, 06:29 PM
I would defer back to my original inquiry because I have not found Biblical support for the notion that a believer can lose salvation or gain salvation from his/her own doings.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

A believer can lose his/her Salvation by entering a state of unbelief where the Holy Sprit is actively resisted or grieved. Law-keeping after receiving the gospel was one such state of unbelief. Love of the world or the lusts of the flesh or fame and fortune are other such states. Our focus should always be on Christ and his power to keep all those that belong to him but that doesn't mean being naïve to the possibility of apostasy like Hymenaeus and Alexander who made shipwreck of their faith.

Potter's Clay
July 12th, 2017, 06:31 PM
A believer can lose his/her Salvation by entering a state of unbelief where the Holy Sprit is actively resisted or grieved. Law-keeping after receiving the gospel was one such state of unbelief. Our focus should always be on Christ and his power to keep all those that belong to him but that doesn't mean being naïve to the possibility of apostasy like Hymenaeus and Alexander who made shipwreck of their faith.

I am yet to find someone in scripture who truly believed in God and lost his/her salvation.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Epoisses
July 12th, 2017, 06:37 PM
I am yet to find someone in scripture who truly believed in God and lost his/her salvation.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

I just named two.

Potter's Clay
July 12th, 2017, 06:42 PM
I just named two.

Hardly


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Epoisses
July 12th, 2017, 06:44 PM
Hardly


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Potter's clay is a third who believes in man's words oh so strongly. You have great faith but it's in the wrong thing. Satan and his angels have great faith .... in lies!

jsanford108
July 12th, 2017, 06:59 PM
I am yet to find someone in scripture who truly believed in God and lost his/her salvation.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Judas. And the rich man.

Both believed in God, yet turned away.

Potter's Clay
July 12th, 2017, 07:05 PM
Judas. And the rich man.

Both believed in God, yet turned away.

Was Judah regenerated? Did he know righteousness? The same can be asked about the rich man.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

jsanford108
July 13th, 2017, 09:59 AM
Was Judah regenerated? Did he know righteousness? The same can be asked about the rich man.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

You asked if any one believed in God, yet turned away.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Potter's Clay
July 13th, 2017, 11:12 AM
You asked if any one believed in God, yet turned away.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Can someone truly believe in God and not be regenerated?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Robert Pate
July 13th, 2017, 11:25 AM
Can someone truly believe in God and not be regenerated?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)


There are many that believe in God, but do not believe in his Son Jesus Christ. They are lost.

beloved57
July 13th, 2017, 11:46 AM
There are many that believe in God, but do not believe in his Son Jesus Christ. They are lost.

You dont believe in Jesus Christ. You believe His death was a failure since you believe sinners He died for can be lost anyways !

Potter's Clay
July 13th, 2017, 11:59 AM
There are many that believe in God, but do not believe in his Son Jesus Christ. They are lost.

In effect, those people do not believe in the true and living God and are not regenerated. My question remains.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Robert Pate
July 13th, 2017, 12:01 PM
You dont believe in Jesus Christ. You believe His death was a failure since you believe sinners He died for can be lost anyways !

There is not one sin in the whole universe that Jesus did not atone for. You are lost because you refuse to accept the free gift of salvation provided by Jesus Christ, Romans 5:18.

beloved57
July 13th, 2017, 12:02 PM
There is not one sin in the whole universe that Jesus did not atone for. You are lost because you refuse to accept the free gift of salvation provided by Jesus Christ, Romans 5:18.
You teach that sinners Christ died for, atoned for, are still lost.

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

beloved57
July 13th, 2017, 12:03 PM
There is not one sin in the whole universe that Jesus did not atone for. You are lost because you refuse to accept the free gift of salvation provided by Jesus Christ, Romans 5:18.
False statements!

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

Robert Pate
July 13th, 2017, 12:25 PM
False statements!

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

Salvation is a free gift from God. Not an imposition.

jsanford108
July 13th, 2017, 12:46 PM
Can someone truly believe in God and not be regenerated?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Obviously there can be. Look at the Pharisees. The Jews. Even agnostics. JW's, Mormons, the list goes on.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

beloved57
July 13th, 2017, 12:48 PM
Salvation is a free gift from God. Not an imposition.
False teaching!

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

Robert Pate
July 13th, 2017, 12:51 PM
False teaching!

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

The Bible says that salvation is a free gift, Romans 5:15-18. Not an imposition.

Right Divider
July 13th, 2017, 12:53 PM
Many meanings can have one word. Context is important in helping to determine what is meant.
Indeed, sometimes the word ALL is used as a GENERALIZATION and does NOT literally mean absolutely 100%.

beloved57
July 13th, 2017, 12:55 PM
The Bible says that salvation is a free gift, Romans 5:15-18. Not an imposition.
I know what the scripture says, but you make false statements. You don't believe that Christ death saved sinners He died for!

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

Potter's Clay
July 13th, 2017, 01:15 PM
Obviously there can be. Look at the Pharisees. The Jews. Even agnostics. JW's, Mormons, the list goes on.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

You can't possibly believe that the Pharisees, Jews, agnostics, JW's, and Mormons truly believe in God. If that were true, they would have to agree upon the true nature of God. Are you sure you wish to make that extraordinary claim?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

jsanford108
July 13th, 2017, 02:39 PM
I am yet to find someone in scripture who truly believed in God and lost his/her salvation.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

From post #172.

Your simple statement was "truly believed in God and lost their salvation."

The Jews and Pharisees truly believed in God. They did not believe Christ.

Granted, Christ being God, one can make the argument that these mentioned do not "truly believe," since they do not trust the words of Christ.

But to deny their belief in God is ignorance. So yes, I stick with my "extraordinary claim."

Even the other cults listed believe in what they have been taught. Ignorance is a powerful tool for denial. Much like your ignorance of people turning from God, despite believing in him. Jonah did it. Judas did it. Peter even denied Christ. Was this not turning momentarily? A loss of faith/fear of what faith brings? Peter did strengthen his faith, yes. But he didn't believe he would deny Christ, despite Christ telling Peter it would be so.

There are some good examples. Jonah, who turned away and was forced to obey. Judas, who believed initially, but forever turned away (he did realize the depths of his actions, afterwards). And Peter, who trusted and believed, didn't fully believe (when Christ mentioned Peter's future denial), denied (a turning away due to fear), yet returned with sorrow, going on to live with a faith above reproach.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)

Cross Reference
July 13th, 2017, 02:52 PM
From post #172.

Your simple statement was "truly believed in God and lost their salvation."

The Jews and Pharisees truly believed in God. They did not believe Christ.

Granted, Christ being God, one can make the argument that these mentioned do not "truly believe," since they do not trust the words of Christ.

But to deny their belief in God is ignorance. So yes, I stick with my "extraordinary claim."

Even the other cults listed believe in what they have been taught. Ignorance is a powerful tool for denial. Much like your ignorance of people turning from God, despite believing in him. Jonah did it. Judas did it. Peter even denied Christ. Was this not turning momentarily? A loss of faith/fear of what faith brings? Peter did strengthen his faith, yes. But he didn't believe he would deny Christ, despite Christ telling Peter it would be so.

There are some good examples. Jonah, who turned away and was forced to obey. Judas, who believed initially, but forever turned away (he did realize the depths of his actions, afterwards). And Peter, who trusted and believed, didn't fully believe (when Christ mentioned Peter's future denial), denied (a turning away due to fear), yet returned with sorrow, going on to live with a faith above reproach.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:17-18 (KJV)

Robert Pate
July 13th, 2017, 04:36 PM
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:17-18 (KJV)

Good answer.

Robert Pate
July 13th, 2017, 04:37 PM
False statements!

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

You are in complete and total denial of what the Bible says.

beloved57
July 13th, 2017, 04:51 PM
You are in complete and total denial of what the Bible says.
You are in denial. You teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost, not me!

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

Bright Raven
July 13th, 2017, 05:02 PM
You are in denial. You teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost, not me!

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

You misinterpret the scriptures.

Robert Pate
July 14th, 2017, 08:42 AM
You misinterpret the scriptures.

Instead of trusting in Christ for your salvation, you are trusting that you have been predestinated. There is nothing in the Bible about trusting that you have been predestinated.