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beloved57
June 18th, 2017, 06:49 AM
One thing i find to be prominent in the religious world, and thats them who dare to utter the blasphemous words:

The death of Christ doesn't save anyone. or The death of Christ doesnt save anyone but His life does, referring to Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Now I ask where in this verse does it say "the death of Christ doesnt save anyone" ? It doest ! Yes it says "we shall be saved by His Life" but who is that referring to ? Believers, the already saved, they shall be saved in the future. Salvation is in three tenses scripturally speaking, past, present and future. The we here in the phrase" we shall be saved by his life"are not lost people.

In fact they are saved, justified and reconciled people who Christ died for.. And this in fact will be scripture #1 that proves without a shadow of doubt, that Christ's Death alone saved them He died for.

Now how do we know this ? Simple, Paul says that Believers were reconciled to God while being enemies or unbelievers. Now to be reconciled to God is Salvation, at least an aspect of it, its to be saved from the penalty of sin, and to be put into a right relationship with God, to be received into His Favour. The word reconciled here is the greek word katallassō and means:

to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value


[*=left]to reconcile (those who are at variance)
[*=left]return to favour with, be reconciled to one
[*=left]to receive one into favour

Now those in the Favour of God are not lost, not by a long shot, they are saved from the Wrath of God and the Penalty of Sin. Paul writes to the Thessalonians 1 Thess 1:10

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

His being rasied from the dead certifys that His death delivered them from the wrath to come.



So when men say that the death of Christ never saved anyone, beware, thats a false teacher ! They have not been sent of God to bear the testimony of the Gospel !

oatmeal
June 18th, 2017, 07:11 AM
One thing i find to be prominent in the religious world, and thats them who dare to utter the blasphemous words:

The death of Christ doesn't save anyone. or The death of Christ doesnt save anyone but His life does, referring to Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Now I ask where in this verse does it say "the death of Christ doesnt save anyone" ? It doest ! Yes it says "we shall be saved by His Life" but who is that referring to ? Believers, the already saved, they shall be saved in the future. Salvation is in three tenses scripturally speaking, past, present and future. The we here in the phrase" we shall be saved by his life"are not lost people.

In fact they are saved, justified and reconciled people who Christ died for.. And this in fact will be scripture #1 that proves without a shadow of doubt, that Christ's Death alone saved them He died for.

Now how do we know this ? Simple, Paul says that Believers were reconciled to God while being enemies or unbelievers. Now to be reconciled to God is Salvation, at least an aspect of it, its to be saved from the penalty of sin, and to be put into a right relationship with God, to be received into His Favour. The word reconciled here is the greek word katallassō and means:

to change, exchange, as coins for others of equivalent value


[*=left]to reconcile (those who are at variance)
[*=left]return to favour with, be reconciled to one
[*=left]to receive one into favour

Now those in the Favour of God are not lost, not by a long shot, they are saved from the Wrath of God and the Penalty of Sin. Paul writes to the Thessalonians 1 Thess 1:10

And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

His being rasied from the dead certifys that His death delivered them from the wrath to come.



So when men say that the death of Christ never saved anyone, beware, thats a false teacher ! They have not been sent of God to bear the testimony of the Gospel !



What does Romans 5:10 say?

It says we were reconciled by the death of his son, it does not say we were saved by the death of his son, we shall be saved by his life.

Those who know only of his death do not have enough information to do Romans 10:9, for it states that we must believe in our heart that God raised him from the dead. Thus we must believe that Jesus Christ is living because God raised him from the dead.

There is a difference between the meanings of the words reconcile and save.

They may go hand in hand but they are different in meaning and implications.

There was a man who went on a cruise with friends, they had a spat and the man fell overboard as he yelled out, I am sorry I disappointed you my dear friends. The friends on board accepted his apology, but the man drowned before he could be saved. He was reconciled but not saved.

beloved57
June 18th, 2017, 07:14 AM
What does Romans 5:10 say?

It says we were reconciled by the death of his son, it does not say we were saved by the death of his son, we shall be saved by his life.

Those who know only of his death do not have enough information to do Romans 10:9, for it states that we must believe in our heart that God raised him from the dead. Thus we must believe that Jesus Christ is living because God raised him from the dead.

There is a difference between the meanings of the words reconcile and save.

They may go hand in hand but they are different in meaning and implications.

Did you read the OP and the points I made with scripture ?

beloved57
June 18th, 2017, 07:16 AM
oatmeal


What does Romans 5:10 (https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rom%205.10) say?

It says we were reconciled by the death of his son,

Thats part of being saved ! To be reconciled to God !

beloved57
June 18th, 2017, 07:19 AM
oatmeal


What does Romans 5:10 (https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rom%205.10) say?

It says we were reconciled by the death of his son,

A reconciled Person isnt a lost person ! You show me where in the scripture it teaches a reconciled person to God is lost !

oatmeal
June 18th, 2017, 08:25 AM
Did you read the OP and the points I made with scripture ?

I did, though more closely and completely this time.

One of the challenges of reading the KJV and older versions like it is the use of pronouns.

God himself, and people, including Jesus Christ, are at times is referred to not as a "who" but a "which" or "that"

Incidentally, I was accused of calling Jesus Christ a that. well, I was quoting the KJV and she did not understand one of the limitations of the KJV or rather the Old English that was the norm at the time.

"which delivered us from the wrath to come" could have been translated "who delivered us from the wrath to come."

One example of "which" instead of "who" is

II Corinthians 11:31

The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Neither God nor Jesus Christ is a "which" they are a "who"

oatmeal
June 18th, 2017, 08:32 AM
oatmeal



Thats part of being saved ! To be reconciled to God !

As I said, reconciliation and salvation go hand in hand.

My point is that they are not one and the same.

If they were why not use reconcile in both passages or save in both passages?

They are related but not identical.

Does not God say in the OT that if a good man turns from God he loses out and if a bad man turns to God, he gains by it?

Of course, salvation was not a gift back then like it is now because of Jesus Christ's heroic sacrifice for us, but the point I make is that reconciliation is possible without salvation.

A natural man, a man of only body and soul, could ask God for forgiveness, do you think God will acknowledge that? But that man will sin again, and may never do Romans 10:9. that man may be temporarily reconciled but until he is saved from his sins, ie, receives the gift of salvation, he is not saved.

However, in sense, if a saved person sins, he has not renewed his mind to do the truth in that category of his sin. He then needs reconciliation in that category. See my thread on "after salvation, then what?"

beloved57
June 18th, 2017, 08:34 AM
oatmeal


I did, though more closely and completely this time.

So you will be accountable for the Truth therein ! Do you want to further discuss the specific points I made with scripture ?

beloved57
June 18th, 2017, 08:36 AM
oatmeal


As I said, reconciliation and salvation go hand in hand.

My point is that they are not one and the same.

Yes they are one and the same ! You cant be reconciled to God and be lost, its impossible !

beloved57
June 18th, 2017, 09:22 AM
Now scripture #2 that teaches the Death of Christ alone saves them He died for, the first being Rom 5:10 is Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering[His Death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Folks being perfected forever is Salvation, its being saved ! And How ? By One Offering which is His Death ! He hath perfected forever them which are sanctified or being sanctified, passive voice. They are being Sanctified because they have been made Perfect Perfect tense by the death of Christ !

The word perfect is the greek word teleioō and means:




[*=left]to make perfect, complete


[*=left]to carry through completely, to accomplish, finish, bring to an end


[*=left]to complete (perfect)


[*=left]add what is yet wanting in order to render a thing full

[*=left]to be found perfect


[*=left]to bring to the end (goal) proposed

[*=left]to accomplish


[*=left]bring to a close or fulfilment by event


[*=left]of the prophecies of the scriptures





Now that greek word comes from teleios which Jesus uses here with the young ruler Matt 19:21

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.


​And that being perfect ensures eternal treasures in heaven ! Now who wants to debate thats not Salvation for being Perfect. The thing is, Christ required the young ruler to do something to acquire being perfect, whereas scripture in Heb 10:14 reveals that Christ's Death/Offering makes them He died for Perfected forever, thats Salvation ensured by Gods own word !

oatmeal
June 18th, 2017, 11:03 AM
oatmeal



So you will be accountable for the Truth therein ! Do you want to further discuss the specific points I made with scripture ?

Of course I am responsible for scripture I have learned and choose to yet learn.

But I am not responsible to have to adhere to opinions and errors in judgement as to what a scripture teaches. If anything, I am responsible to rightly divide the word of truth so that I can recognize truth and believe and recognize error and reject it.

So, as I was saying although salvation and reconciliation are related they are not identical in meaning.

A person who is a believer, that is saved, but still finds that he is tempted by his old man habits has not reconciled his mind and heart to do scripture, he is spiritually reconciled but his lifestyle does not yet reflect his spiritual standing in Christ.

That is the reason to come to "the knowledge of the truth" so that we recognize that although we may be spiritually reconciled and saved, we need the knowledge of the truth to live that reconciliation and salvation.

oatmeal
June 18th, 2017, 11:09 AM
oatmeal



Yes they are one and the same ! You cant be reconciled to God and be lost, its impossible !

Was David saved? when?

Was he reconciled to God when he was fooling around with Uriah's wife?

No, he was not. He was out of bounds. His actions with Bathsheba put him in foul territory.

What if a non believer, say, an atheist, never committed adultery? Is he saved because he never committed adultery?

Yet he did not sin in that category.

He may not need reconciliation to God in that category, but that does not he is a believer.

How about the lost sheep of the house of Israel, were they saved but lost or reconciled but lost? What was their status?

beloved57
June 18th, 2017, 11:30 AM
oatmeal


As I said, reconciliation and salvation go hand in hand.

They are One and the same !

beloved57
June 18th, 2017, 11:31 AM
Of course I am responsible for scripture I have learned and choose to yet learn.

But I am not responsible to have to adhere to opinions and errors in judgement as to what a scripture teaches. If anything, I am responsible to rightly divide the word of truth so that I can recognize truth and believe and recognize error and reject it.

So, as I was saying although salvation and reconciliation are related they are not identical in meaning.

A person who is a believer, that is saved, but still finds that he is tempted by his old man habits has not reconciled his mind and heart to do scripture, he is spiritually reconciled but his lifestyle does not yet reflect his spiritual standing in Christ.

That is the reason to come to "the knowledge of the truth" so that we recognize that although we may be spiritually reconciled and saved, we need the knowledge of the truth to live that reconciliation and salvation.

You are accountable for the Truth you dont receive !

beloved57
June 18th, 2017, 11:32 AM
Was David saved? when?

Was he reconciled to God when he was fooling around with Uriah's wife?

No, he was not. He was out of bounds. His actions with Bathsheba put him in foul territory.

What if a non believer, say, an atheist, never committed adultery? Is he saved because he never committed adultery?

Yet he did not sin in that category.

He may not need reconciliation to God in that category, but that does not he is a believer.

How about the lost sheep of the house of Israel, were they saved but lost or reconciled but lost? What was their status?

Evasion and Rabbit trail, not interested !

beloved57
June 18th, 2017, 11:49 AM
#3. A scripture that teaches the life and death of Christ alone saved them He lived and died for ! Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

The Obedience of Christ here is comprised of His Life of Law Keeping Obedience unto the Death of the Cross as stated here Phil 2:8

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

And the result of that Obedience is many SHALL BE MADE RIGHTEOUS ! Thats Salvation, to be made Righteous is to be saved. The Righteous shall shine in the Kingdom of their Father Matt 13:43

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

How come they to be made Righteous ? By the Obedience of One Rom 5:19 , even the death of the Cross, by which also they were perfected forever Heb 10:14


No matter how you slice it, their obedience had nothing to do with being made righteous, because that would overthrow the clear declaration of Rom 5:19 that it was by the Obedience of One that the many were made Righteous, saved !

beloved57
June 19th, 2017, 12:06 AM
#4 Another scripture that teaches salvation is the result of the death of Christ is 1 Pet 2:24

24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

The word stripes here is speaking of His Death, the baring of our sins, which results in our being healed !

Now the word healed is the greek word iaomai and means:



[*=left]to cure, heal

[*=left]to make whole


[*=left]to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation

To bring about ones salvation means to effect it, to actualize it.

To make one whole.


Now this is credited to Christ's stripes or His sufferings unto death when He bare our sins !

This scripture is also witnessed in the Prophets Isa 53:5

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


We are healed because of and as an effect of His stripes. We became believers because of and as an effect of His stripes !

beloved57
June 19th, 2017, 11:31 PM
#5. Another passage of scripture that teaches the death of Christ alone saves them He died for is Rev 1:5-6

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


Now notice what this passage subscribes to Christ alone :

That He Loved us as He did His Church Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

He washed us from our sins in His own Blood !Note, everyone Christ Loved, He washed them from their sins in His own Blood.

The word for washed is the greek word luˇ and means:
I loose, untie, release, (b) met: I break, destroy, set at naught, contravene; I break up a meeting, annul.

It has to do with being freed from our sins Rom 6:7

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. And this is Justification, the word freed here is the greek word dikaioˇ and means:

I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous.

Now those whom Christ Loved, He washed from their sins, which freed them from the guilt and condemnation due to them, and made them righteous: ( Rom 5:19)

Jn Gill writes:


and washed us from our sins in his own blood; which shows that these persons were loved before washed; they were not first washed, and then loved, but first loved, and then washed. Love was the cause of washing, and not washing the cause of love; hence it appears that they were in themselves filthy, and unclean through sin; and that they could not cleanse themselves by anything they could do; and that such was the love of Christ to them, that he shed his precious blood for them, which is a fountain opened, to wash in for sin, and which cleanses from all sin. This is to be understood, not of the sanctification of their natures, which is the work of the Spirit, but of atonement for their sins, and justification from them by the blood of Christ, whereby they are so removed, that they are all fair, and without spot.


Justification from sin is the result of Christ Loving those He Loved, and those He Loved, He gave Himself for which washed them from their sins in His Own Blood !

glorydaz
June 19th, 2017, 11:57 PM
oatmeal



Yes they are one and the same ! You cant be reconciled to God and be lost, its impossible !

In order for there to be reconciliation, both parties must agree to being reconciled. From God's side, Christ death reconciled all of mankind...He has offered His peace. But, each man must personally and individually agree to "be reconciled" to God.


As in any great long standing Feud ...Hatfields and McCoys for example.

If Mr. Hatfield agreed to make peace with Mr. McCoy, Mr. McCoy would have to agree or he would simply keep shooting all those Hatfields.



It's why we preach the Gospel to unbelievers....begging them to BE RECONCILED to God.


2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

beloved57
June 20th, 2017, 03:06 AM
In order for there to be reconciliation, both parties must agree to being reconciled. From God's side, Christ death reconciled all of mankind...He has offered His peace. But, each man must personally and individually agree to "be reconciled" to God.


As in any great long standing Feud ...Hatfields and McCoys for example.

If Mr. Hatfield agreed to make peace with Mr. McCoy, Mr. McCoy would have to agree or he would simply keep shooting all those Hatfields.



It's why we preach the Gospel to unbelievers....begging them to BE RECONCILED to God.


2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
False statements. Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while being enemies Rom 5:10! All men are not reconciled to God while being enemies because they are under Gods Wrath and Condemnation Jn 3:18,36

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

Epoisses
June 20th, 2017, 06:26 AM
False statements. Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while being enemies Rom 5:10! All men are not reconciled to God while being enemies because they are under Gods Wrath and Condemnation Jn 3:18,36

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

All men have been reconciled to God in Christ Jesus. This good news is then conveyed to men in the gospel which you have never preached. Those that believe receive the merits of Christ's atonement at conversion. Those that persist in unbelief like you are stuck with their old Adamic nature aka the flesh.

Nanja
June 20th, 2017, 07:15 AM
#5. Another passage of scripture that teaches the death of Christ alone saves them He died for is Rev 1:5-6

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
[FONT=Arial]6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


Now notice what this passage subscribes to Christ alone :

That He Loved us as He did His Church Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

He washed us from our sins in His own Blood !Note, everyone Christ Loved, He washed them from their sins in His own Blood.

The word for washed is the greek word [COLOR=#0066AA] luˇ and means:
I loose, untie, release, (b) met: I break, destroy, set at naught, contravene; I break up a meeting, annul.

It has to do with being freed from our sins Rom 6:7

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. And this is Justification, the word freed here is the greek word dikaioˇ and means:

I make righteous, defend the cause of, plead for the righteousness (innocence) of, acquit, justify; hence: I regard as righteous.

Now those whom Christ Loved, He washed from their sins, which freed them from the guilt and condemnation due to them, and made them righteous: ( Rom 5:19)

Jn Gill writes:



Justification from sin is the result of Christ Loving those He Loved, and those He Loved, He gave Himself for which washed them from their sins in His Own Blood !



TY Brother for this very intensive and edifying study!

Amen, the Love Christ has for His Church Eph. 1:4, was the cause of Him Washing us in His own Blood. Therefore, even then, we were Justified / Made Righteous in God's sight based upon Christ's Death alone on our behalf Rev. 13:8b; Rom. 5:9-10.

1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.

beloved57
June 20th, 2017, 02:15 PM
#5. Another passage of scripture that teaches the death of Christ alone saves them He died for is Rev 1:5-6 (https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rev%201.5-6) Pt 2

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Now lets continue to look at the passage and see the rich Saving Grace revealed, not only did the death of Christ effect the washing us from our sins, which is Justification.

But it makes us Kings and Priests unto God ! Thats Spiritual conversion, Spiritual life. It effects conversion and service. And no wonder John concludes the passage with these words :

to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. That is to Christ, to Him be Glory and Dominion, the results and effects of His Death !

Epoisses
June 20th, 2017, 07:58 PM
#5. Another passage of scripture that teaches the death of Christ alone saves them He died for is Rev 1:5-6 (https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rev%201.5-6) Pt 2

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Now lets continue to look at the passage and see the rich Saving Grace revealed, not only did the death of Christ effect the washing us from our sins, which is Justification.

But it makes us Kings and Priests unto God ! Thats Spiritual conversion, Spiritual life. It effects conversion and service. And no wonder John concludes the passage with these words :

to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. That is to Christ, to Him be Glory and Dominion, the results and effects of His Death !

The elect of God believe the bible. You're a goat!

Nanja
June 21st, 2017, 06:59 AM
#5. Another passage of scripture that teaches the death of Christ alone saves them He died for is Rev 1:5-6 (https://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rev%201.5-6) Pt 2

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Now lets continue to look at the passage and see the rich Saving Grace revealed, not only did the death of Christ effect the washing us from our sins, which is Justification.

But it makes us Kings and Priests unto God ! Thats Spiritual conversion, Spiritual life. It effects conversion and service. And no wonder John concludes the passage with these words :

to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. That is to Christ, to Him be Glory and Dominion, the results and effects of His Death !


Amen. Christ's Work of Grace in all those He washed from their sins, makes them Spiritually Alive in New Birth / Regeneration Rom. 8:14-15; A great Miracle: His Spirit Living in them! And as Priests and Kings, continually [day and night] offering Him sacrifices of Worship and Praise Heb. 13:15; Rev. 7:15: Indeed, an indescribable Blessing He has given us my Brother John 7:38!