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Squeaky
June 12th, 2017, 08:59 PM
SCIENCE
1 Tim 6:20-21
20 O Timothy! Guard what was committed to your trust, avoiding the profane and idle babble and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge--
21 by professing it some have strayed concerning the faith. Grace be with you. Amen.
2 Cor 10:3-5
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.
4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
Eph 5:7
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Matt 12:39
39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
2 Tim 2:15-16
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.
II Th 2:10-11
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
John 8:51
51 "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."
Col 2:20-23
20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations--
21 "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,"
22 which all concern things which perish with the using-- according to the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
Mark 8:35
35 "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it.
Col 2:8-9
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
Rom 1:17
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
Matt 15:8-9
8 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' "
Acts 19:19
19 Also, many of those who had practiced magic brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted up the value of them, and it totaled fifty thousand pieces of silver.
Heb 4:2
2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
Rom 14:22
22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
2 Cor 1:9
9 Yes, we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead,
Luke 16:15
15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
Rom 8:20
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
1 Tim 4:1-2
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
Rom 1:20-23
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-- and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Matt 13:24-30
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;
25 "but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.
26 "But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.
27 "So the servants of the owner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
28 "He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?'
29 "But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.
30 'Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn."'"
Matt 23:24
24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
(NKJ)


xxxx Science is a delusion in life. God said if they dont believe His Word He would send strong delusions. So that they would believe the lie. Then canst them into hell for it. They have always been close to finding the truth, but havent found it. They will always be close but will never find it.


II Th 2:9-12
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(NKJ)

beameup
June 12th, 2017, 10:17 PM
You "pluck verses out of context" like a Jehovah's Witness.
No "sound doctrine" to be had.

Truster
June 13th, 2017, 01:21 AM
Luke was a practitioner of medical science.

popsthebuilder
June 13th, 2017, 05:15 AM
There is only one science that is utter truth and that is mathematics. All readily observable existence can be perfectly defined mathematically. All other science is mere theory with peices and parts of truth.

Scripture doesn't refute real science and infact, promotes it.

peace

Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk

Clete
June 13th, 2017, 06:25 AM
SCIENCE
1 Tim 6:20-21
20 O Timothy! Guard what was committed to your trust, avoiding the profane and idle babble and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge--
21 by professing it some have strayed concerning the faith. Grace be with you. Amen.
2 Cor 10:3-5
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh.
4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds,
5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
Eph 5:7
7 Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Matt 12:39
39 But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
2 Tim 2:15-16
15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness.
II Th 2:10-11
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
John 8:51
51 "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."
Col 2:20-23
20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations--
21 "Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,"
22 which all concern things which perish with the using-- according to the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.
Mark 8:35
35 "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it.
Col 2:8-9
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
Rom 1:17
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
Matt 15:8-9
8 'These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me.
9 And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' "
Acts 19:19
19 Also, many of those who had practiced magic brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all. And they counted up the value of them, and it totaled fifty thousand pieces of silver.
Heb 4:2
2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it.
Rom 14:22
22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
2 Cor 1:9
9 Yes, we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves but in God who raises the dead,
Luke 16:15
15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is highly esteemed among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
Rom 8:20
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
1 Tim 4:1-2
1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,
Rom 1:20-23
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-- and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Matt 13:24-30
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;
25 "but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.
26 "But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.
27 "So the servants of the owner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
28 "He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?'
29 "But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.
30 'Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn."'"
Matt 23:24
24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
(NKJ)


xxxx Science is a delusion in life. God said if they dont believe His Word He would send strong delusions. So that they would believe the lie. Then canst them into hell for it. They have always been close to finding the truth, but havent found it. They will always be close but will never find it.


II Th 2:9-12
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(NKJ)
Your point all depends on what you mean by science, doesn't it?

If you mean the pseudo-science of evolution, climate change, big bangs, warped space & multiverses, then I'd say that you might be onto something.

Except that it isn't God doing it. People delude themselves. They do not need God's help in order to come up with reasons to reject Him that are profane, idle and full to the brim with contradictions.

On the other hand, our entire existence is engulfed in life sustaining, life enriching, life-saving technology that science, as well as the Christian worldview in general, is chiefly responsible for creating. You would not be here reading this post, this website and the internet in which it exists would not exist if not for two, very decidedly biblical (i.e. Christian) things; science and capitalism (i.e. a rational worldview applied both to the world around us as well as to the structure of society).

In other words, there is no basis for the idea that science itself is a delusion. On the contrary, many of the greatest scientists that have ever lived were God fearing Christians. Indeed, it is only the Christian who is truly capable of genuine science. All others are borrowing (some might say stealing) from the Christian worldview.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Squeaky
June 13th, 2017, 07:11 AM
You "pluck verses out of context" like a Jehovah's Witness.
No "sound doctrine" to be had.

I said
Apparently you don't know the Holy Spirit. And its obvious you haven't entered the meat understanding yet.

Squeaky
June 13th, 2017, 07:12 AM
Luke was a practitioner of medical science.

I said
He started out that way, but he converted to faith.

Squeaky
June 13th, 2017, 07:15 AM
There is only one science that is utter truth and that is mathematics. All readily observable existence can be perfectly defined mathematically. All other science is mere theory with peices and parts of truth.

Scripture doesn't refute real science and infact, promotes it.

peace

Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk

I said
[1Ti 6:20
20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

Truster
June 13th, 2017, 07:18 AM
I said
He started out that way, but he converted to faith.

"Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you." Col 4:14

Not, the former physician.

beameup
June 13th, 2017, 07:26 AM
I said
Apparently you don't know the Holy Spirit.

I'm certain that you have guidance from at least one spirit.
There are a vast multitude of "spirits" in the aether.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times
some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing
spirits, and doctrines of devils - 1 Timothy 4:1
(walking) according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience. - Ephesians 2:2b

Squeaky
June 13th, 2017, 08:09 AM
"Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you." Col 4:14

Not, the former physician.

I said
Do you understand the simplicity of the physicians at that time? And how science has changed them of today. Back then they put on bandages and took herbs. Today they cut people open and do operations . That they never thought of doing back then.

popsthebuilder
June 13th, 2017, 08:15 AM
I said
[1Ti 6:20
20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
Indeed; falsly so called; some science is so called, and falsly so....

peace friend....

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Squeaky
June 13th, 2017, 08:16 AM
I'm certain that you have guidance from at least one spirit.
There are a vast multitude of "spirits" in the aether.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times
some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing
spirits, and doctrines of devils - 1 Timothy 4:1
(walking) according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience. - Ephesians 2:2b

I said
That is true. That is why one needs to know the real Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit that only quotes scripture is our guarantee from God.

[Jhn 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

[Jhn 16:12-14
12 "I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear [them] now.
13 "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own [authority], but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare [it] to you.

[2Co 5:5
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing [is] God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

popsthebuilder
June 13th, 2017, 08:18 AM
"Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you." Col 4:14

Not, the former physician.
Unlearned may conflate physician with material and physical body per carnal thought, though the truth of the matter is that it references the healing of the spirit and life through the Spirit.

peace

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Truster
June 13th, 2017, 08:41 AM
I said
Do you understand the simplicity of the physicians at that time? And how science has changed them of today. Back then they put on bandages and took herbs. Today they cut people open and do operations . That they never thought of doing back then.

Yes they did cut people open and perform all manner of procedures. The Egyptians were the first people to correctly diagnose diabetes.

They had plenty of practise on men injured in battle.

Truster
June 13th, 2017, 08:43 AM
Unlearned may conflate physician with material and physical body per carnal thought, though the truth of the matter is that it references the healing of the spirit and life through the Spirit.

peace

Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk

Dream on...

Squeaky
June 13th, 2017, 08:57 AM
Yes they did cut people open and perform all manner of procedures. The Egyptians were the first people to correctly diagnose diabetes.

They had plenty of practise on men injured in battle.

I said
Your totally missing the point. Were they Christians? Did they follow Jesus? How many times does it speak of the children of Isreal going after other gods? All evil started somewhere. And filtered into the believers way of life. We are talking about believers and what they should believe. Your off on a tangent.

Truster
June 13th, 2017, 09:00 AM
I said
Your totally missing the point. Were they Christians? Did they follow Jesus? How many times does it speak of the children of Isreal going after other gods? All evil started somewhere. And filtered into the believers way of life. We are talking about believers and what they should believe. Your off on a tangent.

Check back to post 15 and you'll notice that I'm on track and that you are jumping from assumption to assumption.

Clete
June 13th, 2017, 09:34 AM
There is only one science that is utter truth and that is mathematics. All readily observable existence can be perfectly defined mathematically. All other science is mere theory with peices and parts of truth.

Scripture doesn't refute real science and infact, promotes it.

peace

Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk

This is simply false.

Science, or at least the intellectual process thereof (i.e. whether it was called 'science' or not), came before and resulting in mathematics, not the other way around.

Mathematics is nothing at all but a language. You can tell as many lies as you like with mathematics.

Clete

popsthebuilder
June 13th, 2017, 11:02 AM
This is simply false.

Science, or at least the intellectual process thereof (i.e. whether it was called 'science' or not), came before and resulting in mathematics, not the other way around.

Mathematics is nothing at all but a language. You can tell as many lies as you like with mathematics.

Clete
What are you saying is false exactly?

Do you not think all readily observable existence is exactly described with mathematics?

I did not say that math came before science

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Squeaky
June 13th, 2017, 11:21 AM
Check back to post 15 and you'll notice that I'm on track and that you are jumping from assumption to assumption.

I said
Your the one that is assuming. I am the one that is trying to get you to focus on Jews and Christians. The bible.

Squeaky
June 13th, 2017, 11:26 AM
What are you saying is false exactly?

Do you not think all readily observable existence is exactly described with mathematics?

I did not say that math came before science

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I said
I never seen mathematics as science. 2+2=4

Clete
June 13th, 2017, 12:16 PM
What are you saying is false exactly?

Do you not think all readily observable existence is exactly described with mathematics?

I did not say that math came before science

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You said that mathematics is the "only one science that is utter truth".

Mathematics IS NOT science! It is a language that science uses but that doesn't make it science itself. Mathematics does not replace observation, hypothesis, experimentation and multiple, independent confirmation. Mathematics is a tool of science but it is no more or less scientific than any other language or the nearest microscope or test tube.

As I said, you can tell all the lies you want with mathematics and very often maths have no real world corollary. Your faith in mathematics as "utter truth" is just that, faith.

Clete

popsthebuilder
June 13th, 2017, 12:41 PM
I said
I never seen mathematics as science. 2+2=4
There is no science without math. If you believe there to be then provide support showing such please.

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popsthebuilder
June 13th, 2017, 12:59 PM
You said that mathematics is the "only one science that is utter truth".

Mathematics IS NOT science! It is a language that science uses but that doesn't make it science itself. Mathematics does not replace observation, hypothesis, experimentation and multiple, independent confirmation. Mathematics is a tool of science but it is no more or less scientific than any other language or the nearest microscope or test tube.

As I said, you can tell all the lies you want with mathematics and very often maths have no real world corollary. Your faith in mathematics as "utter truth" is just that, faith.

Clete
None of that negates the fact that all observable existence can be perfectly described using the scientific language of mathematics. Nor does it deny that all science that is true uses mathematics. I never said that math and numbers cannot be manipulated. So please explain why you keep insisting that I am lying.

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Squeaky
June 13th, 2017, 01:20 PM
There is no science without math. If you believe there to be then provide support showing such please.

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I said
You need to read the OP. Its clear that science is no more than a strong delusion for non believers. Science cant get you into heaven, but it can keep you out.

popsthebuilder
June 13th, 2017, 03:35 PM
I said
You need to read the OP. Its clear that science is no more than a strong delusion for non believers. Science cant get you into heaven, but it can keep you out.
I'm sorry, but if you think there is no truth in something because it won't get you to heaven then, well; you must be really confused. Your entire statement rubs me the wrong way; as if desire of a destination or placement is good or right motive.

If a man kills another then that person they killed is physically dead.

The proceeding statement is true, however the action nor statement will get anyone to heaven.

Do you see the problem with your logic, or are you going to try to say logic is carnal, and too wrong?

peace


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Squeaky
June 13th, 2017, 04:07 PM
I'm sorry, but if you think there is no truth in something because it won't get you to heaven then, well; you must be really confused. Your entire statement rubs me the wrong way; as if desire of a destination or placement is good or right motive.

If a man kills another then that person they killed is physically dead.

The proceeding statement is true, however the action nor statement will get anyone to heaven.

Do you see the problem with your logic, or are you going to try to say logic is carnal, and too wrong?

peace


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I said
I'm sorry you don't understand. But the only truth for a born again Christian should be the Word of God, Jesus Christ because the Word came through Him. And the Holy Spirit. Everything else is a maybe.

John 18:38
38 Pilate said to Him, "What is truth?" And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews, and said to them, "I find no fault in Him at all.
(NKJ)

John 17:17
17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
(NKJ)

I Jn 5:6
6 This is He who came by water and blood-- Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
(NKJ)

exminister
June 13th, 2017, 04:27 PM
I said
Do you understand the simplicity of the physicians at that time? And how science has changed them of today. Back then they put on bandages and took herbs. Today they cut people open and do operations . That they never thought of doing back then.

The Egyptians, Greeks and Romans all performed surgery, crude by today's standards, but did performed there. They had a pretty good understanding of the body.

popsthebuilder
June 13th, 2017, 04:32 PM
I said
I'm sorry you don't understand. But the only truth for a born again Christian should be the Word of God, Jesus Christ because the Word came through Him. And the Holy Spirit. Everything else is a maybe.

John 18:38
38Pilate said to Him, "What is truth?" And when he had said this, he went out again to the Jews, and said to them, "I find no fault in Him at all.
(NKJ)

John 17:17
17"Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
(NKJ)

I Jn 5:6
6This is He who came by water and blood-- Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
(NKJ)
I deny none of that, only that truth is strictly limited to the Spirit. I mean according to you if the only truth is Christ then the meer thought of opposition to the Christ is false, as opposed to the action.

In scripture many things are identified as not of the Spirit, and though these things are not life it is still true that they exist.

peace friend

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Squeaky
June 13th, 2017, 05:08 PM
I deny none of that, only that truth is strictly limited to the Spirit. I mean according to you if the only truth is Christ then the meer thought of opposition to the Christ is false, as opposed to the action.

In scripture many things are identified as not of the Spirit, and though these things are not life it is still true that they exist.

peace friend

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I said
Look I can only show you what the Word says, and claim I believe it. Its ridiculous to argue over it.

[Mat 4:4
4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' "
[Luk 4:4
4 But Jesus answered him, saying, "It is written, 'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.' "

Clete
June 13th, 2017, 05:32 PM
None of that negates the fact that all observable existence can be perfectly described using the scientific language of mathematics.
Bull!

You clearly have no experience with dealing with the theory vs reality. Mathematics is great for theory but the reality is always fuzzier - always. There are variables that you simply cannot know.

If you're suggesting that physical processes can be perfectly described IF all variables are accounted for then you still have to admit that such is a theoretic proposition.


Nor does it deny that all science that is true uses mathematics.
Bull!

Science (whether it was called that or not) pre-existed mathematics. The first human being who discovered the function of seeds and understood how to plant a crop was using what we would call a scientific process. No mathematics necessary.

Those in ancient Egypt who figured out what kidneys do, didn't make rigorous mathematical arguments to support their suppositions nor was it necessary for them to do so in order for what they were doing to be considered science.

It is not necessary to even know what numbers are to make a rationally sound, scientific association between lightning and thunder or between light sources and shadows or between flowers and plant reproduction or between excessive bleeding and death or any number of other things that can be learned through a purely scientific process that is entirely devoid of any math.


I never said that math and numbers cannot be manipulated. So please explain why you keep insisting that I am lying.
I quoted you directly. There is no hint of me suggesting that you are lying. You are wrong but that isn't the same thing.

Mathematics is not science and science is certainly not fundamentally predicated upon the use of mathematics. If anything, it's the other way around, although I'm not even sure that would be accurate.

A mathematical proof is NOT a scientific proof. In fact, if your mathematics does not produce any prediction that can be tested by experimental observation then no matter how eloquent the math is, it is not science - period (e.g. Quantum Mechanics). Your comment about mathematics being the only pure science is not only wrong, it reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of what science is. I might add, however, that you're in good company on that score. Ever since Einstein and perhaps a bit before that, establishment science has been dominated by the mathematician to the point that many so-called "scientists" don't bother with anything else other than the mathematics. The result being, a lost century of real scientific progress in the arena of cosmology in particular.

Clete

popsthebuilder
June 13th, 2017, 06:21 PM
Bull!

You clearly have no experience with dealing with the theory vs reality. Mathematics is great for theory but the reality is always fuzzier - always. There are variables that you simply cannot know.

If you're suggesting that physical processes can be perfectly described IF all variables are accounted for then you still have to admit that such is a theoretic proposition.


Bull!

Science (whether it was called that or not) pre-existed mathematics. The first human being who discovered the function of seeds and understood how to plant a crop was using what we would call a scientific process. No mathematics necessary.

Those in ancient Egypt who figured out what kidneys do, didn't make rigorous mathematical arguments to support their suppositions nor was it necessary for them to do so in order for what they were doing to be considered science.

It is not necessary to even know what numbers are to make a rationally sound, scientific association between lightning and thunder or between light sources and shadows or between flowers and plant reproduction or between excessive bleeding and death or any number of other things that can be learned through a purely scientific process that is entirely devoid of any math.


I quoted you directly. There is no hint of me suggesting that you are lying. You are wrong but that isn't the same thing.

Mathematics is not science and science is certainly not fundamentally predicated upon the use of mathematics. If anything, it's the other way around, although I'm not even sure that would be accurate.

A mathematical proof is NOT a scientific proof. In fact, if your mathematics does not produce any prediction that can be tested by experimental observation then no matter how eloquent the math is, it is not science - period (e.g. Quantum Mechanics). Your comment about mathematics being the only pure science is not only wrong, it reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of what science is. I might add, however, that you're in good company on that score. Ever since Einstein and perhaps a bit before that, establishment science has been dominated by the mathematician to the point that many so-called "scientists" don't bother with anything else other than the mathematics. The result being, a lost century of real scientific progress in the arena of cosmology in particular.

Clete
So you are arguing that before man came to realize the difference between one seed and two that he know of the scientific process.

This is pointless.

I'm not going to sit here and argue about such nonsense for no good reason.

I agreed that math was a scientific language, but you can't even admit to accusing me falsely. What science works without math? What branch? What field. The process of guessing at the outcome of a given circumstance must be predicated by controls. Do you know what a control is? It generally has to do with amounts, and levels/ constants. Guess what symbolism is used to accurately describe said constants.... and variables.....couldnt be numbers.
You cannot have a hypothesis or any understanding of anything without numbers.

Numbers are even seemingly fairly significant in scripture. The numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 11, 12.

I feel like I'm on freakin sesame street. Just call me the illiterate count, ah, ah, ah....

peace


peace

Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk

Squeaky
June 13th, 2017, 07:11 PM
So you are arguing that before man came to realize the difference between one seed and two that he know of the scientific process.

This is pointless.

I'm not going to sit here and argue about such nonsense for no good reason.

I agreed that math was a scientific language, but you can't even admit to accusing me falsely. What science works without math? What branch? What field. The process of guessing at the outcome of a given circumstance must be predicated by controls. Do you know what a control is? It generally has to do with amounts, and levels/ constants. Guess what symbolism is used to accurately describe said constants.... and variables.....couldnt be numbers.
You cannot have a hypothesis or any understanding of anything without numbers.

Numbers are even seemingly fairly significant in scripture. The numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 11, 12.

I feel like I'm on freakin sesame street. Just call me the illiterate count, ah, ah, ah....

peace


peace

Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk

I said
From what I have seen in the old testament God taught math when He told them about the two trees in the garden of Eden.

[Mat 23:24
24 "Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

[2Ti 2:14
14 Remind [them] of these things, charging [them] before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers.

Its wrong to discuss some things for the sake of flexing ones intellectual muscles.

[2Ti 2:23
23 But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing that they generate strife.

JudgeRightly
June 14th, 2017, 01:00 AM
I said
Do you understand the simplicity of the physicians at that time? And how science has changed them of today. Back then they put on bandages and took herbs. Today they cut people open and do operations . That they never thought of doing back then.


The Egyptians, Greeks and Romans all performed surgery, crude by today's standards, but did performed there. They had a pretty good understanding of the body.
Ancient man was pretty darn smart if you ask me. Heck, just go back to the Civil War of America and try to read a letter that a soldier wrote to his girl back home, it's hard to understand because we are getting worse, not better (as evolutionists would have you believe), with each generation. That letter is more complex than what a soldier would write today to his loved ones.

Then you read the Bible and realize that what is said therein is quite complex.

The ancients were smart people, brilliant compared to today's best scientists. The only reason we are more sophisticated in our technologies today is because we "stand on the shoulders of giants," as Isaac Newton said.

Jonahdog
June 14th, 2017, 05:15 AM
Yes they did cut people open and perform all manner of procedures. The Egyptians were the first people to correctly diagnose diabetes.

They had plenty of practise on men injured in battle.
Ah, yes, back in the old days of the need to balance the 4 humors for good health. Black bile, yellow bile, phlegm and blood. That still work?

Truster
June 14th, 2017, 05:37 AM
Ah, yes, back in the old days of the need to balance the 4 humors for good health. Black bile, yellow bile, phlegm and blood. That still work?

It was Hippocrates, a Greek, that developed the four humors theory, not an Egyptian. They were separated by over a thousand years. If you intend to come across as being clever at least try to be accurate.

Squeaky
June 14th, 2017, 05:55 AM
Ancient man was pretty darn smart if you ask me. Heck, just go back to the Civil War of America and try to read a letter that a soldier wrote to his girl back home, it's hard to understand because we are getting worse, not better (as evolutionists would have you believe), with each generation. That letter is more complex than what a soldier would write today to his loved ones.

Then you read the Bible and realize that what is said therein is quite complex.

The ancients were smart people, brilliant compared to today's best scientists. The only reason we are more sophisticated in our technologies today is because we "stand on the shoulders of giants," as Isaac Newton said.

I said
I think your right, even the Word of God says so.

Eccl 1:8-12
8 All things are full of labor; man cannot express it. The eye is not satisfied with seeing, nor the ear filled with hearing.
9 That which has been is what will be, that which is done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun.
10 Is there anything of which it may be said, "See, this is new"? It has already been in ancient times before us.
11 There is no remembrance of former things, nor will there be any remembrance of things that are to come by those who will come after.
12 I, the Preacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem.
(NKJ)

I have always wondered if the reason for all the catastrophes increasing to man kind. Is because science keeps trying to accomplish things without God.

Clete
June 14th, 2017, 06:10 PM
So you are arguing that before man came to realize the difference between one seed and two that he know of the scientific process.
Undoubtedly this is so but that isn't what I'm arguing. I'm arguing, and I think you know this, that mathematics is not science. Mathematics can be scientific if done properly but that can only happen when the science has been done correctly and when the mathematics are based on and proceeds from the actual science.


This is pointless.

I'm not going to sit here and argue about such nonsense for no good reason.
You would if you had an argument to make.


I agreed that math was a scientific language, but you can't even admit to accusing me falsely.
The thread is all still here for everyone to read. I didn't accuse you of anything aside from having stated something that was false. You'd have had to say something you knew was false in order for it to be a lie. I never made any such accusation and you know it.

In fact, because you know it, this accusation of yours amounts to a lie.

Feel better?


What science works without math? What branch? What field.
All science, all branches, all fields. Science is NOT fundamentally about math - period.

Mathematics is obviously used extensively and to good effect in many, if not most cases. But you can, and scientists often do, go way too far with the mathematics. Especially theoretical physicists as well as climatologists.


The process of guessing at the outcome of a given circumstance must be predicated by controls. Do you know what a control is? It generally has to do with amounts, and levels/ constants. Guess what symbolism is used to accurately describe said constants.... and variables.....couldn't be numbers.
You cannot have a hypothesis or any understanding of anything without numbers.
Of course, you can!

I predict that the sun will rise tomorrow after having set tonight.

I predict that if I set a ball on an inclined plane, it will roll down the plane rather than up it.

I predict that an object in motion will remain in motion unless and until acted upon by a force.


Further, the numbers to which you refer, things like measurements of volume, temperature, distance, time etc. are all arbitrary. An inch is an inch because we call it that, not because of the objectively independent nature of distance. Same goes for every unit of measure you can name. If an inch or a degree or a second where 21.546389% bigger or smaller, the mathematics would still work so long as you were consistent throughout. Guess what that means? It means that mathematics is not "utter truth". If you think otherwise, then attempt to formulate an argument that proceeds from a fundamentally arbitrary premise to an absolute conclusion if you like. Good luck with that. Presuming that mathematics is "utter truth" is tacitly making that exact claim.


Numbers are even seemingly fairly significant in scripture. The numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 11, 12.

I feel like I'm on freakin sesame street. Just call me the illiterate count, ah, ah, ah....
I'm not arguing that scientists do not use mathematics nor that they shouldn't use mathematics nor even that it isn't extremely useful to do so. What I am arguing is that math is not science - period. Math and science are not the same things as your comment implies. Mathematics is not even a branch of science, and it most certainly is NOT "utter truth".

Clete

Squeaky
June 14th, 2017, 06:44 PM
Undoubtedly this is so but that isn't what I'm arguing. I'm arguing, and I think you know this, that mathematics is not science. Mathematics can be scientific if done properly but that can only happen when the science has been done correctly and when the mathematics are based on and proceeds from the actual science.


You would if you had an argument to make.


The thread is all still here for everyone to read. I didn't accuse you of anything aside from having stated something that was false. You'd have had to say something you knew was false in order for it to be a lie. I never made any such accusation and you know it.

In fact, because you know it, this accusation of yours amounts to a lie.

Feel better?


All science, all branches, all fields. Science is NOT fundamentally about math - period.

Mathematics is obviously used extensively and to good effect in many, if not most cases. But you can, and scientists often do, go way too far with the mathematics. Especially theoretical physicists as well as climatologists.


Of course, you can!

I predict that the sun will rise tomorrow after having set tonight.

I predict that if I set a ball on an inclined plane, it will roll down the plane rather than up it.

I predict that an object in motion will remain in motion unless and until acted upon by a force.


Further, the numbers to which you refer, things like measurements of volume, temperature, distance, time etc. are all arbitrary. An inch is an inch because we call it that, not because of the objectively independent nature of distance. Same goes for every unit of measure you can name. If an inch or a degree or a second where 21.546389% bigger or smaller, the mathematics would still work so long as you were consistent throughout. Guess what that means? It means that mathematics is not "utter truth". If you think otherwise, then attempt to formulate an argument that proceeds from a fundamentally arbitrary premise to an absolute conclusion if you like. Good luck with that. Presuming that mathematics is "utter truth" is tacitly making that exact claim.


I'm not arguing that scientists do not use mathematics nor that they shouldn't use mathematics nor even that it isn't extremely useful to do so. What I am arguing is that math is not science - period. Math and science are not the same things as your comment implies. Mathematics is not even a branch of science, and it most certainly is NOT "utter truth".

Clete

I said
Math is not science because God taught math in the garden of Eden.

popsthebuilder
June 14th, 2017, 07:18 PM
This is simply false.

Science, or at least the intellectual process thereof (i.e. whether it was called 'science' or not), came before and resulting in mathematics, not the other way around.

Mathematics is nothing at all but a language. You can tell as many lies as you like with mathematics.

Clete
I agree; math is not science in itself.

I do not agree that science came before math.

I suppose one repeatedly insisting another is lying isn't exactly the same as insisting another is a liar.

My points still stand; every one of them, but I'm not going to be arguing about them for no reason; not because I can't support my claims (I assure you I can), but because it will profit neither of us, and would be fruitless strife.

mathematics is science.

You don't have to believe me.... Google it.

Here; let me help;


the abstract science of number, quantity, and space. Mathematics may be studied in its own right (*pure mathematics*), or as it is applied to other disciplines such as physics and engineering (*applied mathematics*).

the mathematical aspects of something.

plural noun:*mathematics



Undoubtedly this is so but that isn't what I'm arguing. I'm arguing, and I think you know this, that mathematics is not science. Mathematics can be scientific if done properly but that can only happen when the science has been done correctly and when the mathematics are based on and proceeds from the actual science.


You would if you had an argument to make.


The thread is all still here for everyone to read. I didn't accuse you of anything aside from having stated something that was false. You'd have had to say something you knew was false in order for it to be a lie. I never made any such accusation and you know it.

In fact, because you know it, this accusation of yours amounts to a lie.

Feel better?


All science, all branches, all fields. Science is NOT fundamentally about math - period.

Mathematics is obviously used extensively and to good effect in many, if not most cases. But you can, and scientists often do, go way too far with the mathematics. Especially theoretical physicists as well as climatologists.


Of course, you can!

I predict that the sun will rise tomorrow after having set tonight.

I predict that if I set a ball on an inclined plane, it will roll down the plane rather than up it.

I predict that an object in motion will remain in motion unless and until acted upon by a force.


Further, the numbers to which you refer, things like measurements of volume, temperature, distance, time etc. are all arbitrary. An inch is an inch because we call it that, not because of the objectively independent nature of distance. Same goes for every unit of measure you can name. If an inch or a degree or a second where 21.546389% bigger or smaller, the mathematics would still work so long as you were consistent throughout. Guess what that means? It means that mathematics is not "utter truth". If you think otherwise, then attempt to formulate an argument that proceeds from a fundamentally arbitrary premise to an absolute conclusion if you like. Good luck with that. Presuming that mathematics is "utter truth" is tacitly making that exact claim.


I'm not arguing that scientists do not use mathematics nor that they shouldn't use mathematics nor even that it isn't extremely useful to do so. What I am arguing is that math is not science - period. Math and science are not the same things as your comment implies. Mathematics is not even a branch of science, and it most certainly is NOT "utter truth".

Clete


Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk

Squeaky
June 14th, 2017, 08:23 PM
[QUOTE=popsthebuilder;5042927]I agree; math is not science in itself.

I do not agree that science came before math.

I said
That I can agree with.
[2Ti 2:14
14 Remind [them] of these things, charging [them] before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers.

popsthebuilder
June 14th, 2017, 08:58 PM
[QUOTE=popsthebuilder;5042927]I agree; math is not science in itself.

I do not agree that science came before math.

I said
That I can agree with.
[2Ti 2:14
14 Remind [them] of these things, charging [them] before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers.
Thank you.... And again

Thank you

peace friend

Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk

Clete
June 14th, 2017, 10:02 PM
I agree; math is not science in itself.

I do not agree that science came before math.

I suppose one repeatedly insisting another is lying isn't exactly the same as insisting another is a liar.

My points still stand; every one of them, but I'm not going to be arguing about them for no reason; not because I can't support my claims (I assure you I can), but because it will profit neither of us, and would be fruitless strife.

mathematics is science.

You don't have to believe me.... Google it.

Here; let me help;


the abstract science of number, quantity, and space. Mathematics may be studied in its own right (*pure mathematics*), or as it is applied to other disciplines such as physics and engineering (*applied mathematics*).

the mathematical aspects of something.

plural noun:*mathematics





Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk
The only way for you to support your original claim, which you've moved off of now (thank you), is to alter your use of the term mathematics. The only way mathematics is itself a science is if one is studying mathematics itself. That is studying mathematical theory as one might study music theory. If you are studying, in some objective manner, the how and why of the way mathematics work then you are doing science.

But that isn't what you meant when you made mathematics the ultimate science and said that it is "utter truth".

Mathematics is a very advanced form of rational thought. It developed and evolved over thousands of years. There can be no doubt whatsoever that science, the process of rational objective investigation, came long before numbers of any sort, never mind systematic mathematics. Indeed, mathematics would have to have been the result of such a rational thought process. It could not possibly have predated it. Mathematics describes things. Before you can say something as simple as, "I have two apples.", you have to understand what an apple is and that it isn't the same as an orange or a rock or the tree from which it grew. Surely you can see how that would be a simpler more natural distinction to make than would be the far more abstract concepts of 'one' and 'two' and 'three' and 'add' and 'subtract'. Before a man can spend his time thinking up abstract concepts such as those involved in mathematics, he has to feed himself and in order to feed himself, he has to understand what food is and how to collect it. The process of learning to do that is a rational process of discovery and learning about the world in which one lives - a.k.a. science.


Finally, it was never my intention to "argue" in the hostile sense of the word. This is a debate forum, is it not? When someone says something you think is wrong, how is it offensive to say so in such a place? It's not like I dove in with "You're a lying sack of bat crap, you stupid fool!" or something like that. I simply said that your claim was false and proceeded to explain why. No one said you have to agree.

Clete

Derf
June 14th, 2017, 10:54 PM
I think much more progress could be made if we can settle on the meaning of "science" as Paul intended, rather than our current definitions.

Other translations use "knowledge". And the same Holy Spirit also inspired the imperative, "Get knowledge." I'm certain He wouldn't want us to get a delusion.

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Squeaky
June 15th, 2017, 06:00 AM
[QUOTE=Clete;5043033]


Mathematics is a very advanced form of rational thought. It developed and evolved over thousands of years. There can be no doubt whatsoever that science, the process of rational objective investigation, came long before numbers of any sort, never mind systematic mathematics. Indeed, mathematics would have to have been the result of such a rational thought process.

I said
Carnal(Rational) State Of Mind-Milk State Of Mind Spiritual State Of Mind-Meat

The carnal state of mind which is taught by society. Is we're good people we dont do what them bad people do. Now the policemen lie, trick, deceive, and manipulate so they can put a bad guy in jail. And he is a bad guy because he lie's, tricks, deceive's, and manipulates society. This is the rational mind.

John 14:26
26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
Rom 8:27
27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
1 Cor 5:7-8
7 Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.
8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
Eph 4:22-24
22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.
Col 3:10
10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him,
John 3:33-34
33 "He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true.
34 "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure.
(NKJ)

xxx Society teaches us to chase our dreams, and never settle . The bible teaches us to be content no matter what we have.


Heb 13:5-6
5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."
6 So we may boldly say: "The Lord is my helper; I will not fear. What can man do to me?"
1 Tim 6:8-9
8 And having food and clothing, with these we shall be content.
9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and harmful lusts which drown men in destruction and perdition.
Phil 4:11-13
11 Not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content:
12 I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.
13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
Luke 3:14
14 Likewise the soldiers asked him, saying, "And what shall we do?" So he said to them, "Do not intimidate anyone or accuse falsely, and be content with your wages."
(NKJ)

xxx Society has changed lust and coveting into love. If you lust after a woman or money just call it love. Women dress to arouse men, to tempt them. Men use money to arouse women. Society accepts this behavior. The bible calls them all sins.


Rom 13:9
9 For the commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not bear false witness," "You shall not covet," and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
James 4:1-5
1 Where do wars and fights come from among you? Do they not come from your desires for pleasure that war in your members?
2 You lust and do not have. You murder and covet and cannot obtain. You fight and war. Yet you do not have because you do not ask.
3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask amiss, that you may spend it on your pleasures.
4 Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever therefore wants to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God.
5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"?
Matt 5:28
28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
(NKJ)

xxx Society teaches that rich is successfull. The bible teaches being rich is a sin. That the poor are blessed.

James 5:1-6

1 Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you!
2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten.
3 Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days.
4 Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth.
5 You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter.
6 You have condemned, you have murdered the just; he does not resist you.
Rev 3:17
17 "Because you say, 'I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'-- and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked--
James 2:1-4
1 My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality.
2 For if there should come into your assembly a man with gold rings, in fine apparel, and there should also come in a poor man in filthy clothes,
3 and you pay attention to the one wearing the fine clothes and say to him, "You sit here in a good place," and say to the poor man, "You stand there," or, "Sit here at my footstool,"
4 have you not shown partiality among yourselves, and become judges with evil thoughts?
(NKJ)

xxx Society walks according to the carnal mind. The carnal mind has the enfluence of emotions, devils, feelings, lusts, covetings, evil thoughts, perversions, deceptions.

Eph 4:17-19
17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind,
18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their heart;
19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
(NKJ)

xxx What greater test could God have than to ask you to believe something exists that doesnt exist. And to do it by faith. Faith in Gods Word that it is all true. Because only then will you see it work as it says it will work.

Rom 4:17-18
17 (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations") in the presence of Him whom he believed-- God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;
18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, "So shall your descendants be."
(NKJ)

xxx You know what the carnal mind is, you have one from birth. The Spiritual mind is different. There is no high, no low, no length, no depth, no logic, no reasoning, no feelings, no emotions, no post, no future, no truth, outside the Word of God. What ever the verse says is just exactly what I believe. And respond to.

John 7:38
38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."
(NKJ)
1 Cor 4:6
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
(NKJ)
Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
(NKJ)

popsthebuilder
June 15th, 2017, 06:23 AM
The only way for you to support your original claim, which you've moved off of now (thank you), is to alter your use of the term mathematics. The only way mathematics is itself a science is if one is studying mathematics itself. That is studying mathematical theory as one might study music theory. If you are studying, in some objective manner, the how and why of the way mathematics work then you are doing science.

But that isn't what you meant when you made mathematics the ultimate science and said that it is "utter truth".

Mathematics is a very advanced form of rational thought. It developed and evolved over thousands of years. There can be no doubt whatsoever that science, the process of rational objective investigation, came long before numbers of any sort, never mind systematic mathematics. Indeed, mathematics would have to have been the result of such a rational thought process. It could not possibly have predated it. Mathematics describes things. Before you can say something as simple as, "I have two apples.", you have to understand what an apple is and that it isn't the same as an orange or a rock or the tree from which it grew. Surely you can see how that would be a simpler more natural distinction to make than would be the far more abstract concepts of 'one' and 'two' and 'three' and 'add' and 'subtract'. Before a man can spend his time thinking up abstract concepts such as those involved in mathematics, he has to feed himself and in order to feed himself, he has to understand what food is and how to collect it. The process of learning to do that is a rational process of discovery and learning about the world in which one lives - a.k.a. science.


Finally, it was never my intention to "argue" in the hostile sense of the word. This is a debate forum, is it not? When someone says something you think is wrong, how is it offensive to say so in such a place? It's not like I dove in with "You're a lying sack of bat crap, you stupid fool!" or something like that. I simply said that your claim was false and proceeded to explain why. No one said you have to agree.

Clete
Look; I'm over it.... Really.

peace

Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk

Clete
June 15th, 2017, 06:58 AM
[QUOTE=Clete;5043033]



Mathematics is a very advanced form of rational thought. It developed and evolved over thousands of years. There can be no doubt whatsoever that science, the process of rational objective investigation, came long before numbers of any sort, never mind systematic mathematics. Indeed, mathematics would have to have been the result of such a rational thought process.
Learn how to use the quote feature, moron!


I said
Carnal(Rational) State Of Mind-Milk State Of Mind Spiritual State Of Mind-Meat

The carnal state of mind which is taught by society. Is we're good people we dont do what them bad people do. Now the policemen lie, trick, deceive, and manipulate so they can put a bad guy in jail. And he is a bad guy because he lie's, tricks, deceive's, and manipulates society. This is the rational mind.
No, it isn't! That's hypocrisy! It is fundamentally self-contradictory which is what makes it hypocrisy. It's the opposite of rationality.


xxx Society teaches us to chase our dreams, and never settle . The bible teaches us to be content no matter what we have.
No one here cares what society teaches and I'd bet that you couldn't rationally defend either statement anyway.

The Bible teaches us to work for our food and to save for the future and not to be lazy. In short, it teaches us to be wise in all areas of our lives. It does not teach us to sit on our butts reading the bible all day and wait for God to drop our food (i.e. our needs) in our laps.


xxx Society has changed lust and coveting into love. If you lust after a woman or money just call it love. Women dress to arouse men, to tempt them. Men use money to arouse women. Society accepts this behavior. The bible calls them all sins.
All things we learn in grade school level Bible classes. Way to go. What does it have to do with the topic of the thread or anything I've said? Nothing!


xxx Society teaches that rich is successfull. The bible teaches being rich is a sin. That the poor are blessed.
You're a fool. The Bible does not teach that it is a sin to be rich. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.


xxx Society walks according to the carnal mind. The carnal mind has the enfluence of emotions, devils, feelings, lusts, covetings, evil thoughts, perversions, deceptions.
Another third-grade level observation, Sherlock.


xxx What greater test could God have than to ask you to believe something exists that doesnt exist. And to do it by faith. Faith in Gods Word that it is all true. Because only then will you see it work as it says it will work.
God is not a liar. He does not ask us to believe in the non-existent or the self-contradictory. God is NOT a liar. Faith is not contrary to reason, it is dependent upon it. You're talking about blind belief. Real faith is about accepting the substantive evidence of things not seen. What you're talking about has nothing to do with biblical faith.


xxx You know what the carnal mind is, you have one from birth.
The Bible says that we are all born with a knowledge of God - just the opposite of your mystic religious dogma that has almost nothing at all to do with the what the bible actually teaches. Which, by the way, you could not even read nor understand without reason and logic. And since you reject reason, that explains your idiotic dogma.


The Spiritual mind is different. There is no high, no low, no length, no depth, no logic, no reasoning, no feelings, no emotions, no post, no future, no truth, outside the Word of God. What ever the verse says is just exactly what I believe. And respond to.
You're a liar and a fool. :rotfl:

And yes, I mean both of those words literally. I firmly believe that you know that the things you say are false, even if on just an intuitive level. You spread lies and defame God's character and undermine His justice and righteousness which cannot be practiced without the mind. The war we fight with evil is fought in the mind. I'm not talking about the biological brain but the mind where you most fundamentally exist. It can be fought nowhere else and by no other means and you intentionally turn yours off (or attempt to) and teach others to do the same. The Bible, on the other hand, teaches that we have the mind of Christ.

You believe what your doctrine tells you to believe about what the Bible means. You claim not to use reason but reject any doctrine that you feel contradicts your dogma! That's reason at work. That's logic in practice except that you're operating from false premises and thereby reject the truth.
Your real problem is that you commit a kind of mental suicide because the fundamental thing that you reject is the very thing that would allow you to correct any error you might make. You're permanently stuck in the mire of stupidity by virtue of having cut your own legs off.

Thank you for reminding me why I had you on ignore. That's where you deserve to be.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Squeaky
June 15th, 2017, 07:52 AM
[QUOTE=Squeaky;5043166]
Learn how to use the quote feature, moron!


No, it isn't! That's hypocrisy! It is fundamentally self-contradictory which is what makes it hypocrisy. It's the opposite of rationality.


No one here cares what society teaches and I'd bet that you couldn't rationally defend either statement anyway.
You believe what your doctrine tells you to believe about what the Bible means. You claim not to use reason but reject any doctrine that you feel contradicts your dogma! That's reason at work. That's logic in practice except that you're operating from false premises and thereby reject the truth.
Your real problem is that you commit a kind of mental suicide because the fundamental thing that you reject is the very thing that would allow you to correct any error you might make. You're permanently stuck in the mire of stupidity by virtue of having cut your own legs off.


You're a fool. The Bible does not teach that it is a sin to be rich. That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
Thank you for reminding me why I had you on ignore. That's where you deserve to be.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I said
lol No I'm a real Christian. You really should see what else the new testament teaches.

[Mat 5:22-24
22 "But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 "Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
24 "leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

But you do demonstrate the rational mind.

Clete
June 15th, 2017, 03:05 PM
I think much more progress could be made if we can settle on the meaning of "science" as Paul intended, rather than our current definitions.

Other translations use "knowledge". And the same Holy Spirit also inspired the imperative, "Get knowledge." I'm certain He wouldn't want us to get a delusion.

Sent from my Z992 using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

Well, that's exactly right. I'm sure that most of the disagreement that popsthebuilder and I have has more to do with what we mean by science that anything else. But that is what a debate forum is for, or at least that's what it should be for. Airing out differences over the details.

Clete
June 15th, 2017, 03:09 PM
[QUOTE=Clete;5043209]

I said
lol No I'm a real Christian. You really should see what else the new testament teaches.

[Mat 5:22-24
22 "But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, 'Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 "Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
24 "leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

But you do demonstrate the rational mind.

The best test to know that you've pegged a fool correctly is to see how quickly that pull Matthew 5 out of context and present it as a fail proof defense.

You've done it immediately while completely ignoring every argument made against you. You ought to be ashamed of yourself, but I know that you aren't.

Anyone who gives you the time of day is wasting their time.

Good bye and good riddance.

Clete

ok doser
June 15th, 2017, 03:11 PM
I'm a real Christian.

nope

Squeaky
June 15th, 2017, 04:51 PM
[QUOTE=Squeaky;5043232]

The best test to know that you've begged a fool correctly is to see how quickly that pull Matthew 25 out of context and present it as a fail proof defense.

You've done it immediately while completely ignoring every argument made against you. You ought to be ashamed of yourself, but I know that you aren't.

Anyone who gives you the time of day is wasting their time.

Good bye and good riddance.

Clete

I said
lol The rational mind does get all emotional don't they. Its not Matt 25. Its Matt 5

Squeaky
June 15th, 2017, 04:52 PM
nope

I said
lol Hey bumper I've missed your intellectual insight.

Clete
June 16th, 2017, 09:34 AM
I said
lol The rational mind does get all emotional don't they. Its not Matt 25. Its Matt 5

I can fix typos. You can't fix stupid.

Squeaky
June 16th, 2017, 10:24 AM
I can fix typos. You can't fix stupid.

I said
I wasn't trying to fix you, I was only trying to help you.

expos4ever
June 16th, 2017, 12:06 PM
Ancient man was pretty darn smart if you ask me. Heck, just go back to the Civil War of America and try to read a letter that a soldier wrote to his girl back home, it's hard to understand because we are getting worse, not better (as evolutionists would have you believe), with each generation.
Getting worse in what way? I suggest that what evidence there is suggests that we are getting "smarter" as time marches on. From Wikipedia:

The increasing test performance over time appears on every major test, in every age range, at every ability level, and in every modern industrialized country, although not necessarily at the same rate as in the United States. The increase has been continuous and roughly linear from the earliest days of testing to the present. Though the effect is most associated with IQ increases, a similar effect has been found with increases in attention and of semantic and episodic memory.

JudgeRightly
June 16th, 2017, 01:08 PM
Getting worse in what way? I suggest that what evidence there is suggests that we are getting "smarter" as time marches on. From Wikipedia:

The increasing test performance over time appears on every major test, in every age range, at every ability level, and in every modern industrialized country, although not necessarily at the same rate as in the United States. The increase has been continuous and roughly linear from the earliest days of testing to the present. Though the effect is most associated with IQ increases, a similar effect has been found with increases in attention and of semantic and episodic memory.
Please read through this:

kgov.com/genius

It addresses your points.

expos4ever
June 16th, 2017, 02:45 PM
Please read through this:

kgov.com/genius

It addresses your points.
Well, it offers a different claim. However, as I see it, we have two credible, but differing claims on the table - one that IQs are going up, the other that they are going down. So, based on what I have seen thus far, the matter remains open.

Clete
June 16th, 2017, 03:18 PM
I found a quote that does a good job of concisely stating what I was getting at with my comments concerning mathematics vs. science....

"Virtual models operating within computer algorithms have replaced direct observation in recent years: the natural philosophy of science has been abandoned. Computer models are used to build other models, which, in turn, are used to “confirm” further models. Physics used to mean investigating the nature and properties of matter and energy. Instead, it has become the handmaiden to mathematics." - Stephen Smith (https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2011/09/04/indiscernible/)

Clete

Squeaky
June 16th, 2017, 04:15 PM
Well, it offers a different claim. However, as I see it, we have two credible, but differing claims on the table - one that IQs are going up, the other that they are going down. So, based on what I have seen thus far, the matter remains open.

I said
There were two trees in the garden of Eden. The tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The tree of life which represents having the Holy Spirit.

[Jhn 6:63
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and [they] are life.

And the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Which represents the wisdom of man-science.

[1Co 1:19-21, 24, 30
19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
20 Where [is] the wise? Where [is] the scribe? Where [is] the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. ...
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. ...
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption--
[1Co 2:4-5
4 And my speech and my preaching [were] not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Clete
June 17th, 2017, 08:27 AM
“After all, to get the whole universe totally wrong in the face of clear evidence for over 75 years merits monumental embarrassment and should induce a modicum of humility.” [1]

“The Standard Model of particle physics would appear to fail in nearly every possible way, and all of its failures seem to stem from the early 1930s. By all indications science seems to have taken a wrong turn about this time. After three hundred years of progressively simplifying the description of the universe, with fewer entities and simpler laws, it suddenly turned the other way, with complexity and entities multiplying like rabbits.” [2]

“We are about to enter the 21st century but our understanding of the origin of inertia, mass, and gravitation still remains what has been for centuries – an outstanding puzzle.” [3]

How has this situation arisen? In the 20th century technology perfected wireless communication and computers and got man into space, while fundamental science fell deeper into a ‘black hole’ of complication, illogicality and metaphysics. I consider the principal cause has been the usurping, since Einstein, of natural philosophy and physics by theoretical mathematicians. Meanwhile Einstein, perhaps to his credit, remained sceptical of his own work.[4,5]

[1] Halton Arp, What has Science Come to?, Journal of Scientific Exploration, Vol. 14, No. 3, 2000, pp. 447–454.
[2] D. L. Hotson, Dirac’s Equation and the Sea of Negative Energy, Infinite Energy, issue 43, 2002, p. 4. It was noted by H. C. Dudley in Smithsonian, Vol. 5, No. 7, October 1974, that, “Dirac advised a group of U.S. physicists to stop looking for more and more particles and direct their efforts elsewhere.”
[3] Vesselin Petkov, Did 20th century physics have the means to reveal the nature of inertia and gravitation?, 17 Dec 2000.
[4] Albert Einstein, “You can imagine that I look back on my life’s work with calm satisfaction. But from nearby it looks quite different. There is not a single concept of which I am convinced that it will stand firm, and I feel uncertain whether I am in general on the right track.” Personal Letter to Professor Solovine, dated 28 March 1949. Quoted in B. Hoffman, Albert Einstein-Creator and Rebel (N.Y.: Viking Press, 1972).
[5] Lee Smolin, Einstein’s Lonely Path, DISCOVER 30/9/2004, “Special relativity was the result of 10 years of intellectual struggle, yet Einstein had convinced himself it was wrong within two years of publishing it. He had rejected his theory, even before most physicists had come to accept it.”


Source (http://www.holoscience.com/wp/electric-gravity-in-an-electric-universe/)

JudgeRightly
June 17th, 2017, 08:47 AM
I said
There were two trees in the garden of Eden. The tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The tree of life which represents having the Holy Spirit.

[Jhn 6:63
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and [they] are life.

I think more accurately, the Tree of life represents Grace, because without God's grace, we have no eternal life.


And the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Which represents the wisdom of man-science.

[1Co 1:19-21, 24, 30
19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
20 Where [is] the wise? Where [is] the scribe? Where [is] the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. ...
24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. ...
30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God--and righteousness and sanctification and redemption--
[1Co 2:4-5
4 And my speech and my preaching [were] not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

Actually, while the tree of life does represent something, it has nothing to do with science.

It does represent knowledge, not knowledge of the world and how it works, but knowledge of the Law.

The Law is the knowledge of good and evil.

.

These two themes run throughout the entire Bible, Law and Grace.

Abram was given a covenant of Grace, then later, God changed his name to Abraham and gave him a covenant of circumcision (which is used throughout the Bible as a synonym for law).

Squeaky
June 17th, 2017, 09:25 AM
I think more accurately, the Tree of life represents Grace, because without God's grace, we have no eternal life.



Actually, while the tree of life does represent something, it has nothing to do with science.

It does represent knowledge, not knowledge of the world and how it works, but knowledge of the Law.

The Law is the knowledge of good and evil.

.

These two themes run throughout the entire Bible, Law and Grace.

Abram was given a covenant of Grace, then later, God changed his name to Abraham and gave him a covenant of circumcision (which is used throughout the Bible as a synonym for law).

I said
The tree of life doesn't have nothing to do with science. But the tree of the knowledge of good and evil does. Its mans wisdom. Man came up with science.

JudgeRightly
June 17th, 2017, 09:46 AM
I said
The tree of life doesn't have nothing to do with science.

I never said it did. I said it represents grace.


But the tree of the knowledge of good and evil does. Its mans wisdom. Man came up with science.

No, it doesn't. It's a symbol of law. What is law? Law is the knowledge of good and evil.

Science cannot tell is something is good or bad. It can only tell how much of something there is, it can only describe the physical aspects of things.

Knowledge is not physical. Information is not physical.

northwye
June 17th, 2017, 10:52 AM
"I said
[1Ti 6:20
20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
Indeed; falsly so called; some science is so called, and falsly so....

peace friend....

Sent from my Z983 using Tapatalk "

Science is used as a translation of the Greek word γνωσεως in the King James. But the meaning of the phrase και αντιθεσεις της ψευδωνυμου γνωσεως has to be understood. Otherwise, from the translation of γνωσεως as science instead of knowledge, you risk thinking this whole verse is about what we now call science.

Find out what και αντιθεσεις της ψευδωνυμου γνωσεως means before getting into opinions on what this verse is about. αντιθεσεις, anti-thesis, is a word used by the Greek philosophical school of the dialectic. ψευδωνυμου transliterates, from Greek letters to our Latin alphabet, as pseudónumos, or pseudo name. Thats not too difficult to figure out what the translation should be.

γνωσεως or gnoseos, or gnosis, means knowledge. But the Geneva Bible has science for gnosis and the King James follows the Geneva Bible.

The William Tyndale New Testament, before the Geneva Bible, used science for gnosis. The meaning of the English word science to Tyndale in 1524-26 was likely different from its meaning to us in 2017. Because 1524-26 is over a hundred years before Isaac Newton was born in 1642. Newton did some of the early work on what we would call science, or experimental science. Maybe what Tyndale understood by science was the alchemy of his time, or the very early stages of the development of some forms of science out of the interest then in alchemy.

It could be that Tyndale used "science" to mean alchemy in 1524-26 meaning that alchemy is a form of pseudo-knowledge, or falsely called knowledge.

Isaac Newton and other very early scientists had been interested in alchemy, although the work they did laid the foundation of experimental science. But still experimental science is not the best translation of gnosis within the phrase και αντιθεσεις της ψευδωνυμου γνωσεως. Knowledge is a better translation of gnosis.

Paul implies by his use of the word αντιθεσεις, anti-thesis, in I Timothy 6: 20-21 that the dialectic produces "falsely called knowledge." Paul's warning not to use the dialectic is the main focus or point in I Timothy 6: 20-21, not experimental science.

Squeaky
June 17th, 2017, 11:16 AM
I never said it did. I said it represents grace.



No, it doesn't. It's a symbol of law. What is law? Law is the knowledge of good and evil.

Science cannot tell is something is good or bad. It can only tell how much of something there is, it can only describe the physical aspects of things.

Knowledge is not physical. Information is not physical.

I said
My point is that spiritual knowledge has to come from the bible. Carnal knowledge comes from out side the bible. The Holy Spirit only quotes bible verses. The rules of believing the bible is to NOT think beyond what is written in the bible. And to NOT add one thing to the verses or take one thing away from the verses.

[1Co 4:6
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
[Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Squeaky
July 28th, 2017, 07:44 PM
Science says the world is billions of years old. God says the world is only six thousand years old. Science says that all living flesh comes from a mother and father. God created everything in the beginning full grown. Adam and Eve were created full grown. Created and born are two different things. In the beginning God created everything. FULL GROWN. So that it would appear much older than it really is. And it is a strong delusion to science. And everything reproduces after its own kind.

Gen 1:21-22
21 So God created great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters abounded, according to their kind, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
22 And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."
(NKJ)

Gen 1:24-25
24 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind"; and it was so.
25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
(NKJ)

Gen 1:11-12
11 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so.
12 And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
(NKJ)

ok doser
July 28th, 2017, 07:53 PM
The Holy Spirit only quotes bible verses.



Nope

Squeaky
July 29th, 2017, 01:24 AM
Nope

I said
lol Its nice to see you on the job bumper.

Stuu
July 30th, 2017, 05:37 AM
Science is a delusion in life.
...which was typed by a man who couldn't have typed it without the technological products of materials science, using plastic keys which are the technological product of the science of organic chemistry, keys which connected metal electrical parts, another product of the science of chemistry, to allow electrons and photons to carry the message around the world via the technological products of physics.

All to be read by us, who we know from the science of biology to be African apes.

A somewhat hypocritical message to send, no?

Stuart

Squeaky
July 30th, 2017, 05:56 AM
...which was typed by a man who couldn't have typed it without the technological products of materials science, using plastic keys which are the technological product of the science of organic chemistry, keys which connected metal electrical parts, another product of the science of chemistry, to allow electrons and photons to carry the message around the world via the technological products of physics.

All to be read by us, who we know from the science of biology to be African apes.

A somewhat hypocritical message to send, no?

Stuart

I said
lololol Science is always trying to steal credit from God.

1 Cor 4:6-7
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
(NKJ)

Interplanner
July 30th, 2017, 06:52 AM
...which was typed by a man who couldn't have typed it without the technological products of materials science, using plastic keys which are the technological product of the science of organic chemistry, keys which connected metal electrical parts, another product of the science of chemistry, to allow electrons and photons to carry the message around the world via the technological products of physics.

All to be read by us, who we know from the science of biology to be African apes.

A somewhat hypocritical message to send, no?

Stuart





The hypocrisy is science's NOT giving credit for all that to the Creator. For not seeing that such a crescendo of opportunity is supposed to glorify God.

Thanks to the religion of uniformitarian science, almost no one realizes how horribly arrogant and violent mankind became before the cataclysm. For ex., the beautiful and realist drawing stones of Naszca (about 11K estimated to be in existence) were--as far as subject matter goes--roughly 1/3 sexual perversion, 1/3 exultation of violence and 1/3 human--dinosaur interaction. They as a people were also technically adept. The Biblical description of such a culture is that 'they neither recognized God nor gloried him, but turned vain in their imaginations (delusional)' --Romans 1.

From the design of DNA and protein to the fact that solar eclipses happen because of the perfect sizing of the celestial bodies involved, the whole creation exists to show man that God is there and is to be glorified as his Creator. Which is also what generated the US Constitution, thank God.

RealityJerk
July 30th, 2017, 07:07 AM
The only ones under a strong delusion, are those who think they have "the truth", because they have "the book". You can parrot what some unknown author wrote thousands of years ago, and you think you know God. Your sack full of answers, you confidently, proudly hang over your shoulder, is a sack full of nothing. Your source of "absolute certainty", "the book with all of the answers",undermines your faith, replacing it with delusion.

All we have here in this physical realm, is a sack full of questions. The holy book from heaven, with all of the answers, the comforting, warm and fuzzy, chicken soup for the soul, source of absolute truth and certainty, doesn't exist. Nothing can spare you, from reality, from your obligation, to ask questions and pursue God, in faith and truth. Your pursuit of God, your relationship with Him, is not a book, in a book, your ability to memorize and cite verses from a book. Book religions, like rabbinical Judaism and Islam, are spiritually bankrupt. You are just as bankrupt and destitute as they are, if you believe this book you call "The Book" / "The Bible", is the perfect, flawless, "word of God". The sack full of answers.

Is your understanding and interpretation of "The Book", divinely inspired? The inerrant interpretation of the inerrant book? Really? Wow, you're a Godly Giant. Giant of Godliness. Amazing. The inerrant interpretation of the inerrant book. That sack full of answers you have there over your shoulder, reading to assault the heathen and "heretics" with, is actually a sack full of feces. It stinks. It's your delusion, derived from fear. You're afraid, to walk in faith and have a genuine encounter with the living God. So you rely on paper and ink, your source of comfort, "absolute certainty", all clearly spelled out, right there, for you to interpret and impose on others.

What "book", did Enoch have? Your book there, says he, "walked with God", and "God took him". He walked with God. Did he walk with God, carrying a King James Bible? What book were they citing back then? Hitting people over the head with, back then? What "Sack full of answers", what mystical, magical, "holy book", did they have back then? You've made the bible an idol. The only book that ever came down from heaven, is Jesus Christ. The law written on tablets of stone, is now written upon our hearts. The holy fire from heaven, descends upon us, infusing our soul with righteousness and light.

The only point of certainty, in this world, is you with God. You with God. Not me with God, not him or her with God. You, with God. You, that the only point of certainty in this fallen world. You will have an encounter with God, that is undeniable. You will be led by the Holy Spirit, the very presence and ETERNAL LIVING WORD OF GOD. You are the temple, the holy of hollies is within you. "The Book", is within you. If you are born from above, "born again", then you know God. You may not know much about God, but you know Him. My 2 year old son, may not know much about his daddy, but he knows me, he knows his daddy. He knows daddy. He hasn't read my biography, he doesn't know much about me, can't define me, can't give me a history, or chart detailing my life story. He's not a psychologist, a physiologist, an anthropologist, a theologian, but he knows me nonetheless.

You want to cite all of these verses from a book, pretending you know God? That's the delusion. Most so called Christians, are deluded. If every bible in the world, disappeared today, every genuine Christian, would still know their God. Christianity, true Christianity, is not a book religion, like rabbinic Judaism and Islam. It's a faith, based on a living person. A real relationship with the Living God. It's the spirit that guides us, to all truth and righteousness. The bible is profitable, if you have the spirit of God dwelling within you. If you place to much emphasis on the papyrus, on the paper and ink, you will shipwreck you faith. Derail it. You will become spiritually impotent, bankrupt. A dry desert. No less religious than the unbelieving Jews and Muslims.

Outside of you, all you will find, is a sack full of questions. The answer is within you, in the Holy Spirit. In the silence, listen.

oatmeal
July 30th, 2017, 07:19 AM
Squeaky,

I Timothy 6:20

O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

There is knowledge which is falsely called science and there is science that is rightly called science.

If we look at what people call science we find that some agrees with God's word and some does not

Botany and biology, starting with Mendel, discovered that there is a genetic code that determines the species of offspring. If you plant peas, you get peas, if you breed cattle, you get cattle. Everything after its kind.

However, many scientists have erred in that subject. They erroneously think that evolution from one species to another is scientifically possible, which God's word make plain, is impossible for everything is after its kind.

There may be evolution within species, but offspring are always the same species as the seed that generated them.

One example of evolution within species is the many varieties of canines, wolfs, dogs and the many breeds of dogs. It is possible to breed within a species to bring out various characteristics but the offspring is always dogs or whatever species is being bred.

The big bang theory is another scientific error.

They deny God's creative activity in Genesis 1:1

However, theologians likewise err in their interpretation of Genesis 1:1-3, they assume that Genesis 1:3 follows immediately after Genesis 1:1-2, which it does not.

oatmeal
July 30th, 2017, 07:22 AM
Likewise all this gender identity junk that social "scientists" have come up with.

God made and formed male and female. There are only two genders and the genetic code determines which gender a person is. A man is not a woman and a woman is not a man. A man who thinks he is a woman is still a man, no matter how erroneous his thinking is.

Homoesexuality is a perversion of the truth. Some scientists recognize that, but alas, many, maybe most, do not.

Squeaky
July 30th, 2017, 08:01 AM
Likewise all this gender identity junk that social "scientists" have come up with.

God made and formed male and female. There are only two genders and the genetic code determines which gender a person is. A man is not a woman and a woman is not a man. A man who thinks he is a woman is still a man, no matter how erroneous his thinking is.

Homoesexuality is a perversion of the truth. Some scientists recognize that, but alas, many, maybe most, do not.

I said
HOMOSEXUAL

1 Cor 5:9-13
9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people.
10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world.
11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner-- not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."
James 1:13-16
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
Gal 5:17
17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish.
Gal 5:19
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
Gal 5:24
24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
1 Pet 2:19
19 For this is commendable, if because of conscience toward God one endures grief, suffering wrongfully.
1 Pet 2:21-22
21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:
22 "Who committed no sin, nor was deceit found in His mouth";
James 4:5
5 Or do you think that the Scripture says in vain, "The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously"?
James 4:7-8
7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.
8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
1 Cor 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
1 Tim 1:8-10
8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,
9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,
Luke 17:28-30
28 "Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;
29 "but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.
30 "Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
Titus 1:10-11
10 For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
11 whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain.
2 Pet 2:3
3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
Rev 22:18-19
18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
(NKJ)
xxxxThis is a revelation I received from the Holy Spirit. Like it or not this is what the bible says. You can look up every verse. Whether your a homosexual or not if you approve of it you could condemn yourself. Homosexuality is a sin.


Rom 14:22
22 Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
(NKJ)

James 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
(NKJ)


2 Pet 3:9-13
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
(NKJ)

Rom 1:22-32
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man-- and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
(NKJ)

Stuu
July 30th, 2017, 01:15 PM
The hypocrisy is science's NOT giving credit for all that to the Creator. For not seeing that such a crescendo of opportunity is supposed to glorify God.

Thanks to the religion of uniformitarian science, almost no one realizes how horribly arrogant and violent mankind became before the cataclysm. For ex., the beautiful and realist drawing stones of Naszca (about 11K estimated to be in existence) were--as far as subject matter goes--roughly 1/3 sexual perversion, 1/3 exultation of violence and 1/3 human--dinosaur interaction. They as a people were also technically adept. The Biblical description of such a culture is that 'they neither recognized God nor gloried him, but turned vain in their imaginations (delusional)' --Romans 1.

From the design of DNA and protein to the fact that solar eclipses happen because of the perfect sizing of the celestial bodies involved, the whole creation exists to show man that God is there and is to be glorified as his Creator. Which is also what generated the US Constitution, thank God.
Good to see you carry on your pointless narrative there, regardless of reality. Good luck with that.

Shall the rest of us just keep supporting the science you rely on every day?

Stuart

Squeaky
July 30th, 2017, 01:50 PM
Man by the influence of the devil has always been trying to steal credit that only belongs to God the Father. Whether its under the delusion of science or just under the denial of Gods existence.

[Ecc 1:9
9 That which has been [is] what will be, That which [is] done is what will be done, And [there is] nothing new under the sun.
[Act 17:21
21 For all the Athenians and the foreigners who were there spent their time in nothing else but either to tell or to hear some new thing.
[1Co 4:6-7
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other.
7 For who makes you differ [from another]? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive [it], why do you boast as if you had not received [it]?

Squeaky
November 1st, 2017, 08:54 AM
Science is a strong delusion that God put out there for the arrogant.
Think about this. God created everything full grown with just His Word-LET THERE BE. And look at Adam and Eve He didn't create them as babies but they had babies. He created the world full grown and the animals. And with His power He could create anything to look older than it was. He done that for the arrogant scientists.


II Th 2:9-12
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(NKJ)