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Robert Pate
June 10th, 2017, 01:07 PM
How can anyone possibly believe that God condemns people to hell before they are born? As if that was not bad enough, then believe that Jesus only atoned for some sins, but not all sins. If you don't see anything wrong these Calvinist beliefs, then you are as spiritually dead as they are. To believe such terrible things about God and his Son Jesus Christ is to sentence yourself to hell. Not only do Calvinist declare that God is unjust and that Jesus is a failure. They boldly stand by their blasphemous doctrine and condemn anyone that does not agree with them.

Who are the elect?

God chose prophets, patriarch's, the nation of Israel, Jesus Christ and apostles for one reason. They were chosen to make known to the world the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There is no election without a purpose. The Jewish nation of Israel was chosen by God to be the oratoraters of the Gospel. But what did they do? They killed the one that was the Gospel. They by their own free wills rejected the "King of Glory" and murdered him. Jesus came into his own and his own received him not, John 1:11. How did Jesus respond to this?

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that kill the prophets and stone them that are sent unto you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings and YOU WOULD NOT" Matthew 23:37.

Did these murdering Jews have a free will? of course they did. Did they by their own free wills reject Christ and his Gospel? of course they did. They rejected him then and they reject him today."You would not". Even after all of the miracles and good things that Jesus did they would not believe in him, instead they murdered him by their own free wills. If this is not proof that man has a free will I don't know what is. The rejection of Jesus Christ as their Messiah is a classic example that man has a free will. Not all rejected him, many believed in him and became born again Christians.

Charles94
June 10th, 2017, 09:29 PM
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you that kill the prophets and stone them that are sent unto you, how often would I have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings and YOU WOULD NOT" John{sic} 23:37.

Actually, this verse is in Matthew. You bungle this interpretation as you bungle so many others, by missing the context.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, YOU that kill the prophets and stone them that are sent unto you, how often would I have gathered ****YOUR CHILDREN**** together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings and YOU would not!"

YOU...kill the prophets. YOU...would not. Presumably because you hate the scriptures, you willfully change the middle object (your perverted version says that “I would have gathered (you) together...”) so that it seems like Jesus wishes to gather the same ones who kill the prophets and who would not... but that's not what the passage actually says. Rather, Jesus is condemning the Jewish Temple leadership in this chapter.

Matt23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

These Jewish leaders were responsible before God for teaching and shepherding His flock. Jesus is condemning the Temple leadership for failing to do their job and as a consequence, He ordained the destruction of the Temple (Matt23:38). But make no mistake, despite the arrogant disobedience of the religious leaders, their “children” whom they were responsible to teach – such as the “tax collectors and prostitutes” - were entering the kingdom of God ahead of them. (Matt21:31) Jesus was not failing to bring His sheep safely in.


Did these murdering Jews have a free will? of course they did. Did they by their own free wills reject Christ and his Gospel? of course they did. They rejected him then and they reject him today."You would not". Even after all of the miracles and good things that Jesus did they would not believe in him, instead they murdered him by their own free wills. If this is not proof that man has a free will I don't know what is. The rejection of Jesus Christ as their Messiah is a classic example that man has a free will.

You say it's finally proof of “free will” that these Jewish leaders would put Jesus up for trial despite His goodness. The scriptures say you are a liar:

Mark 15:28So the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And He was numbered with the transgressors.”

You say it's finally proof of “free will” that these Jewish leaders would murder Jesus. The scriptures say you are a liar:

Isa53:8He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

Isaiah called it 700 years or so beforehand. Their disobedience was written in stone long before they were born.

1Pet2:7-8 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, “The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense.” They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

It's jarring when those who claim to be spiritual leaders are sinful and rebel against God, sure – but Peter reminds his readers not to panic, as their disobedience was “appointed” all along (alternatively, it's “what they were destined for” or “part of the plan.”)

Prov16:4The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
(or more bluntly from the NASB: “The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.”

And again, the Jesus of the Bible (whom you deny), claims there was no "free" will:

Matt20:17-19 Now Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples aside on the road and said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again.” (Also, in John3:14.)

So right before the verse you quote as teaching this supposed "free" will, Jesus tells the disciples what the Jewish leaders will certainly do, as if they are not free in any real sense to do otherwise. THIS is the real Jesus, whom you continue to reject.

Charles94
June 10th, 2017, 09:41 PM
About this so-called "free" will. It's not something you get from the bible, it comes from human philosophy - you reject Jesus and foolishly choose to serve Aristotle.

So it's important to understand that Calvinists do break the link between ability and responsibility. (or as Martin Luther put it, "An imperative does not imply an indicative.") But sure, human philosophy teaches that if I don't have the ability to fly, then you would be wrong to try to hold me responsible for not flying. If I'm not capable of A, then you can't reasonably ask me to do A. It works reasonably well for human interactions.

You surely see this principle implied by many noncalvinist teachers who point to God’s commands (e.g. “I set before you life and death…choose life…” or “Repent and believe!”) as evidence that we are “free to choose” and therefore must have the capacity to obey. Wouldn't God be evil according to this human philosophy if He demanded the impossible?

Oddly enough, biblical commands such as “Be perfect” and “Love God with ALL your heart…” are never chosen as examples by non-calvinists…because they more clearly demonstrate our inability. If we fail to keep one part of the law, we are guilty of breaking it completely. (Jam2:10) What man born of a human father can claim that he is truly capable of meeting this standard?

If you are witnessing to a nonbeliever and trying to explain to them that they need Jesus what would you tell them? That they are a sinner because they've broken God's law? Yet they could throw the principle above back at you and argue that a "good" God could never require the impossible and demand perfect obedience in the first place...but I digress...

Which is all to say that calvinists believe that we remain responsible for our choices even if we could never have chosen otherwise. When Jesus told Peter that he would deny Him 3 times, Jesus was certain. Peter was not "free" in any real sense to do otherwise. His denials in the future were as certain as anything he'd done in the past. Yet Peter was still responsible and was right to weep bitterly over his sin (Luke22:62) rather than deny responsibility as you seem to suggest would be more appropriate.

You run into the same kind of issue when reading about Pharaoh. The first thing God tells Moses is that Pharaoh will not let the people go until God opens up a can. (Exod3:19-20) The story becomes even more problematic because God isn't gentle and loving toward Pharaoh, but rather hardens him in his opposition…and claims to have raised him up in the first place because his opposition would allow God to display His power. Just kinda "lucky" that God was able to establish the Passover/Lord's Supper through Pharaoh's obstinance? Or if God intended Pharaoh's opposition all along, does that excuse Pharaoh? Of course not.

Rom9:17-20 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”...

God did not wait to see what the Jewish leaders would do of their own "free will" - the Bible teaches that He intended that His Son suffer as a result of perjury and be killed unjustly…so does that excuse those who participated in His murder or did they need to repent as many of them did when confronted with Peter's preaching?

Acts2:23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death...

Isa53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief...

C.S. Lewis leaned too far on his pagan training and concluded that God understands time less clearly than we do. Lewis taught, “In a sense, God does not know your action till you have done it." OTOH, David was inspired by the Holy Spirit to deny that sort of nonsense:

Psa139:16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them..

David knew God held and ordained his future - all of it, including his sin - and took comfort in that. But it was never an excuse for his sin.

So why is that principle of human philosophy at the foundation of your reasoning rather than scripture? Free-willers and hyper-calvinists agree on that point - so free will-types argue that we must have the ability to choose otherwise or else we are just puppets and not responsible – and hyper-calvinists say that since the bible teaches that men don't have the ability to choose otherwise, there's no need to bother with mission work that calls men to repentance and obedience. But it's the same root issue IMO. Something to be wary of, as it leads you away from the God of the Bible.

Robert Pate
June 11th, 2017, 05:44 AM
Actually, this verse is in Matthew. You bungle this interpretation as you bungle so many others, by missing the context.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, YOU that kill the prophets and stone them that are sent unto you, how often would I have gathered ****YOUR CHILDREN**** together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings and YOU would not!"

YOU...kill the prophets. YOU...would not. Presumably because you hate the scriptures, you willfully change the middle object (your perverted version says that “I would have gathered (you) together...”) so that it seems like Jesus wishes to gather the same ones who kill the prophets and who would not... but that's not what the passage actually says. Rather, Jesus is condemning the Jewish Temple leadership in this chapter.

Matt23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

These Jewish leaders were responsible before God for teaching and shepherding His flock. Jesus is condemning the Temple leadership for failing to do their job and as a consequence, He ordained the destruction of the Temple (Matt23:38). But make no mistake, despite the arrogant disobedience of the religious leaders, their “children” whom they were responsible to teach – such as the “tax collectors and prostitutes” - were entering the kingdom of God ahead of them. (Matt21:31) Jesus was not failing to bring His sheep safely in.



You say it's finally proof of “free will” that these Jewish leaders would put Jesus up for trial despite His goodness. The scriptures say you are a liar:

Mark 15:28So the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And He was numbered with the transgressors.”

You say it's finally proof of “free will” that these Jewish leaders would murder Jesus. The scriptures say you are a liar:

Isa53:8He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

Isaiah called it 700 years or so beforehand. Their disobedience was written in stone long before they were born.

1Pet2:7-8 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, “The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense.” They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

It's jarring when those who claim to be spiritual leaders are sinful and rebel against God, sure – but Peter reminds his readers not to panic, as their disobedience was “appointed” all along (alternatively, it's “what they were destined for” or “part of the plan.”)

Prov16:4The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
(or more bluntly from the NASB: “The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.”

And again, the Jesus of the Bible (whom you deny), claims there was no "free" will:

Matt20:17-19 Now Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples aside on the road and said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again.” (Also, in John3:14.)

So right before the verse you quote as teaching this supposed "free" will, Jesus tells the disciples what the Jewish leaders will certainly do, as if they are not free in any real sense to do otherwise. THIS is the real Jesus, whom you continue to reject.


Everyone has a free will. It would not be possible to function in life without the ability to make choices and decisions. What do you think that you are a puppet and God is pulling your strings? Your post is insulting to common sense. I don't reject Jesus as you falsely accuse me of doing. I fully and completely accept the Jesus of the Bible. It is the Jesus of Calvinism that is a false Jesus that cannot atone for the sins of the world. You arguments are baseless and indicate that you are lost.

Robert Pate
June 11th, 2017, 06:12 AM
About this so-called "free" will. It's not something you get from the bible, it comes from human philosophy - you reject Jesus and foolishly choose to serve Aristotle.

So it's important to understand that Calvinists do break the link between ability and responsibility. (or as Martin Luther put it, "An imperative does not imply an indicative.") But sure, human philosophy teaches that if I don't have the ability to fly, then you would be wrong to try to hold me responsible for not flying. If I'm not capable of A, then you can't reasonably ask me to do A. It works reasonably well for human interactions.

You surely see this principle implied by many noncalvinist teachers who point to God’s commands (e.g. “I set before you life and death…choose life…” or “Repent and believe!”) as evidence that we are “free to choose” and therefore must have the capacity to obey. Wouldn't God be evil according to this human philosophy if He demanded the impossible?

Oddly enough, biblical commands such as “Be perfect” and “Love God with ALL your heart…” are never chosen as examples by non-calvinists…because they more clearly demonstrate our inability. If we fail to keep one part of the law, we are guilty of breaking it completely. (Jam2:10) What man born of a human father can claim that he is truly capable of meeting this standard?

If you are witnessing to a nonbeliever and trying to explain to them that they need Jesus what would you tell them? That they are a sinner because they've broken God's law? Yet they could throw the principle above back at you and argue that a "good" God could never require the impossible and demand perfect obedience in the first place...but I digress...

Which is all to say that calvinists believe that we remain responsible for our choices even if we could never have chosen otherwise. When Jesus told Peter that he would deny Him 3 times, Jesus was certain. Peter was not "free" in any real sense to do otherwise. His denials in the future were as certain as anything he'd done in the past. Yet Peter was still responsible and was right to weep bitterly over his sin (Luke22:62) rather than deny responsibility as you seem to suggest would be more appropriate.

You run into the same kind of issue when reading about Pharaoh. The first thing God tells Moses is that Pharaoh will not let the people go until God opens up a can. (Exod3:19-20) The story becomes even more problematic because God isn't gentle and loving toward Pharaoh, but rather hardens him in his opposition…and claims to have raised him up in the first place because his opposition would allow God to display His power. Just kinda "lucky" that God was able to establish the Passover/Lord's Supper through Pharaoh's obstinance? Or if God intended Pharaoh's opposition all along, does that excuse Pharaoh? Of course not.

Rom9:17-20 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”...

God did not wait to see what the Jewish leaders would do of their own "free will" - the Bible teaches that He intended that His Son suffer as a result of perjury and be killed unjustly…so does that excuse those who participated in His murder or did they need to repent as many of them did when confronted with Peter's preaching?

Acts2:23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death...

Isa53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief...

C.S. Lewis leaned too far on his pagan training and concluded that God understands time less clearly than we do. Lewis taught, “In a sense, God does not know your action till you have done it." OTOH, David was inspired by the Holy Spirit to deny that sort of nonsense:

Psa139:16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them..

David knew God held and ordained his future - all of it, including his sin - and took comfort in that. But it was never an excuse for his sin.

So why is that principle of human philosophy at the foundation of your reasoning rather than scripture? Free-willers and hyper-calvinists agree on that point - so free will-types argue that we must have the ability to choose otherwise or else we are just puppets and not responsible – and hyper-calvinists say that since the bible teaches that men don't have the ability to choose otherwise, there's no need to bother with mission work that calls men to repentance and obedience. But it's the same root issue IMO. Something to be wary of, as it leads you away from the God of the Bible.


Did God ordain David's adulterous affair with Bathsheba? To teach that God ordained David's sin is blasphemy and tells me that there is a lot wrong with your theology. Jesus commanded the apostles to go into all of the world and preach the Gospel to everyone. Why did he tell them to do that if people cannot hear believe and choose to be saved? Calvinism is an evangelism killer. Why proclaim the Gospel to the lost if everything has already been decided? God did not harden Pharaohs heart. Pharaohs heart was already hard. God simply used him for his glory. God is just, kind and merciful and is not willing that any should perish, 2 Peter 3:9.

Ask Mr. Religion
June 11th, 2017, 07:10 AM
Everyone has a free will. It would not be possible to function in life without the ability to make choices and decisions. What do you think that you are a puppet and God is pulling your strings? Your post is insulting to common sense. I don't reject Jesus as you falsely accuse me of doing. I fully and completely accept the Jesus of the Bible. It is the Jesus of Calvinism that is a false Jesus that cannot atone for the sins of the world. You arguments are baseless and indicate that you are lost.


Did God ordain David's adulterous affair with Bathsheba? To teach that God ordained David's sin is blasphemy and tells me that there is a lot wrong with your theology. Jesus commanded the apostles to go into all of the world and preach the Gospel to everyone. Why did he tell them to do that if people cannot hear believe and choose to be saved? Calvinism is an evangelism killer. Why proclaim the Gospel to the lost if everything has already been decided? God did not harden Pharaohs heart. Pharaohs heart was already hard. God simply used him for his glory. God is just, kind and merciful and is not willing that any should perish, 2 Peter 3:9.
Robert,

When will you actually interact with your interlocutor's substantive responses to your "articles" instead of just posting these streams of consciousness? Do you actually understand how to form an argument and defend it? You certainly understand how to be evasive and shield yourself from actual examination of your numerous erroneous assumptions (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?111969-Why-I-Don-t-Believe-in-Calvinism-or-Predestination&p=4402162&viewfull=1#post4402162).

Robert, you are the living embodiment of the man Peter was speaking to in 1 Peter 3:15. When will you actually take Peter's counsel?

AMR

Robert Pate
June 11th, 2017, 08:07 AM
Robert,

When will you actually interact with your interlocutor's substantive responses to your "articles" instead of just posting these streams of consciousness? Do you actually understand how to form an argument and defend it? You certainly understand how to be evasive and shield yourself from actual examination of your numerous erroneous assumptions (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?111969-Why-I-Don-t-Believe-in-Calvinism-or-Predestination&p=4402162&viewfull=1#post4402162).

Robert, you are the living embodiment of the man Peter was speaking to in 1 Peter 3:15. When will you actually take Peter's counsel?

AMR


You and many others think that by your numerous words that you have the truth. "We can't refute him with scripture, so let's bombard him with words". It is not that complicated. Christ and his Gospel are simple truths. But when you religionist get through with it no one can understand it.

God's Truth
June 11th, 2017, 08:17 AM
Actually, this verse is in Matthew. You bungle this interpretation as you bungle so many others, by missing the context.

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, YOU that kill the prophets and stone them that are sent unto you, how often would I have gathered ****YOUR CHILDREN**** together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings and YOU would not!"

YOU...kill the prophets. YOU...would not. Presumably because you hate the scriptures, you willfully change the middle object (your perverted version says that “I would have gathered (you) together...”) so that it seems like Jesus wishes to gather the same ones who kill the prophets and who would not... but that's not what the passage actually says. Rather, Jesus is condemning the Jewish Temple leadership in this chapter.

Matt23:13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

These Jewish leaders were responsible before God for teaching and shepherding His flock. Jesus is condemning the Temple leadership for failing to do their job and as a consequence, He ordained the destruction of the Temple (Matt23:38). But make no mistake, despite the arrogant disobedience of the religious leaders, their “children” whom they were responsible to teach – such as the “tax collectors and prostitutes” - were entering the kingdom of God ahead of them. (Matt21:31) Jesus was not failing to bring His sheep safely in.



You say it's finally proof of “free will” that these Jewish leaders would put Jesus up for trial despite His goodness. The scriptures say you are a liar:

Mark 15:28So the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And He was numbered with the transgressors.”

You say it's finally proof of “free will” that these Jewish leaders would murder Jesus. The scriptures say you are a liar:

Isa53:8He was taken from prison and from judgment, And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living; For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

Isaiah called it 700 years or so beforehand. Their disobedience was written in stone long before they were born.

1Pet2:7-8 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who are disobedient, “The stone which the builders rejected Has become the chief cornerstone,” and “A stone of stumbling And a rock of offense.” They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

It's jarring when those who claim to be spiritual leaders are sinful and rebel against God, sure – but Peter reminds his readers not to panic, as their disobedience was “appointed” all along (alternatively, it's “what they were destined for” or “part of the plan.”)

Prov16:4The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
(or more bluntly from the NASB: “The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.”

And again, the Jesus of the Bible (whom you deny), claims there was no "free" will:

Matt20:17-19 Now Jesus, going up to Jerusalem, took the twelve disciples aside on the road and said to them, “Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death, and deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock and to scourge and to crucify. And the third day He will rise again.” (Also, in John3:14.)

So right before the verse you quote as teaching this supposed "free" will, Jesus tells the disciples what the Jewish leaders will certainly do, as if they are not free in any real sense to do otherwise. THIS is the real Jesus, whom you continue to reject.

We do have free will and you misused those scriptures.

Just because God knew that the leaders would have him killed does not mean he made them do that.

God's Truth
June 11th, 2017, 08:31 AM
If you are witnessing to a nonbeliever and trying to explain to them that they need Jesus what would you tell them? That they are a sinner because they've broken God's law? Yet they could throw the principle above back at you and argue that a "good" God could never require the impossible and demand perfect obedience in the first place...but I digress...
That might be a good argument against Robert Pate’s false doctrines, because he teaches no one can obey.
Good job making a fool out of Robert Pate’s false doctrines!

God's Truth
June 11th, 2017, 08:38 AM
Which is all to say that calvinists believe that we remain responsible for our choices even if we could never have chosen otherwise. When Jesus told Peter that he would deny Him 3 times, Jesus was certain. Peter was not "free" in any real sense to do otherwise. His denials in the future were as certain as anything he'd done in the past. Yet Peter was still responsible and was right to weep bitterly over his sin (Luke22:62) rather than deny responsibility as you seem to suggest would be more appropriate.
Peter denied Jesus because he was afraid of the Jews and what they would do to him for standing up for Jesus.
How do you ever get that God made Peter deny him?

God's Truth
June 11th, 2017, 09:16 AM
You run into the same kind of issue when reading about Pharaoh. The first thing God tells Moses is that Pharaoh will not let the people go until God opens up a can. (Exod3:19-20) The story becomes even more problematic because God isn't gentle and loving toward Pharaoh, but rather hardens him in his opposition…and claims to have raised him up in the first place because his opposition would allow God to display His power. Just kinda "lucky" that God was able to establish the Passover/Lord's Supper through Pharaoh's obstinance? Or if God intended Pharaoh's opposition all along, does that excuse Pharaoh? Of course not.
God having to harden Pharaoh proves your whole denomination wrong, for why would God ever need to harden someone who does NOT have free will as you say they do not?

Why would God have need to harden a person if they could not believe and obey unless God made them believe and obey?!

God's Truth
June 11th, 2017, 09:37 AM
About this so-called "free" will. It's not something you get from the bible, it comes from human philosophy - you reject Jesus and foolishly choose to serve Aristotle.

So it's important to understand that Calvinists do break the link between ability and responsibility. (or as Martin Luther put it, "An imperative does not imply an indicative.") But sure, human philosophy teaches that if I don't have the ability to fly, then you would be wrong to try to hold me responsible for not flying. If I'm not capable of A, then you can't reasonably ask me to do A. It works reasonably well for human interactions.

You surely see this principle implied by many noncalvinist teachers who point to God’s commands (e.g. “I set before you life and death…choose life…” or “Repent and believe!”) as evidence that we are “free to choose” and therefore must have the capacity to obey. Wouldn't God be evil according to this human philosophy if He demanded the impossible?

Oddly enough, biblical commands such as “Be perfect” and “Love God with ALL your heart…” are never chosen as examples by non-calvinists…because they more clearly demonstrate our inability.

You got part that right, for non Calvinists don’t use those scriptures because they think God was being ironic.
However, I believe Jesus really meant for us to be perfect and to love God with all our heart.



If we fail to keep one part of the law, we are guilty of breaking it completely. (Jam2:10) What man born of a human father can claim that he is truly capable of meeting this standard?

James was speaking of the ROYAL LAW OF LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR.

Love is not harming your neighbor that is how we love our neighbors; we do no harm to them.

If you do not harm your neighbor by not murdering your neighbor, it is good and you have obeyed a commandment of do not murder.

If you do not harm your neighbor by committing adultery with your neighbor's wife, then you have obeyed another commandment.

If you do not harm your neighbor by bearing false witness against your neighbor, you have done right and obeyed yet another command.

If you STEAL from your neighbor, you have HARMED your neighbor, AND NOW YOU ARE GUILTY OF BREAKING THE WHOLE ROYAL LAW OF LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR.

Do you understand now? You obeyed all those commands and were doing right by loving your neighbor and not harming him...but then, you missed up on one. You did not kill your neighbor, commit adultery with his wife, you did not bear false witness against him...but you stole something from him...you have now broke one law and stole...but now you are guilty of breaking the whole law of love your neighbor because you hurt him by stealing from him.

God's Truth
June 11th, 2017, 10:04 AM
Rom9:17-20 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens.

You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”...

Read this it shows that it matters on whether or not a person repents of their sins. God did not make people to not repent sins. God punishes people who do not repent of their sins.

Jeremiah 18
5Then the word of the LORD came to me. 6He said, “Can I not do with you, Israel, as this potter does?” declares the LORD. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel. 7If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted,10and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.
11“Now therefore say to the people of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, ‘This is what the LORD says: Look! I am preparing a disaster for you and devising a plan against you. So turn from your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your actions.’ 12But they will reply, ‘It’s no use. We will continue with our own plans; we will all follow the stubbornness of our evil hearts.’ ”

God's Truth
June 11th, 2017, 10:20 AM
God did not wait to see what the Jewish leaders would do of their own "free will" - the Bible teaches that He intended that His Son suffer as a result of perjury and be killed unjustly…so does that excuse those who participated in His murder or did they need to repent as many of them did when confronted with Peter's preaching?

Acts2:23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death...

Isa53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He has put Him to grief...

C.S. Lewis leaned too far on his pagan training and concluded that God understands time less clearly than we do. Lewis taught, “In a sense, God does not know your action till you have done it." OTOH, David was inspired by the Holy Spirit to deny that sort of nonsense:

Psa139:16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed. And in Your book they all were written, The days fashioned for me, When as yet there were none of them..

David knew God held and ordained his future - all of it, including his sin - and took comfort in that. But it was never an excuse for his sin.

So why is that principle of human philosophy at the foundation of your reasoning rather than scripture? Free-willers and hyper-calvinists agree on that point - so free will-types argue that we must have the ability to choose otherwise or else we are just puppets and not responsible – and hyper-calvinists say that since the bible teaches that men don't have the ability to choose otherwise, there's no need to bother with mission work that calls men to repentance and obedience. But it's the same root issue IMO. Something to be wary of, as it leads you away from the God of the Bible.

You are led far away from the Bible and not because of God, but because of false teachers who tickled your ears. You should have been more careful, as God warns us to be.

God's Truth
June 11th, 2017, 10:21 AM
Everyone has a free will. It would not be possible to function in life without the ability to make choices and decisions. What do you think that you are a puppet and God is pulling your strings? Your post is insulting to common sense. I don't reject Jesus as you falsely accuse me of doing. I fully and completely accept the Jesus of the Bible. It is the Jesus of Calvinism that is a false Jesus that cannot atone for the sins of the world. You arguments are baseless and indicate that you are lost.

You go against the truth of free will. You say a person cannot believe and obey, and then you go against those who say we do not have free will.

You both are in falseness.

God's Truth
June 11th, 2017, 10:49 AM
Did God ordain David's adulterous affair with Bathsheba? To teach that God ordained David's sin is blasphemy and tells me that there is a lot wrong with your theology. Jesus commanded the apostles to go into all of the world and preach the Gospel to everyone. Why did he tell them to do that if people cannot hear believe and choose to be saved? Calvinism is an evangelism killer. Why proclaim the Gospel to the lost if everything has already been decided? God did not harden Pharaohs heart. Pharaohs heart was already hard. God simply used him for his glory. God is just, kind and merciful and is not willing that any should perish, 2 Peter 3:9.

God did harden Pharaoh's heart. You go against what is plainly written. God hardening Pharaoh's is proof that Calvinism is wrong, but you in your false doctrines believe that you know better than God.

God's Truth
June 11th, 2017, 10:53 AM
You and many others think that by your numerous words that you have the truth. "We can't refute him with scripture, so let's bombard him with words". It is not that complicated. Christ and his Gospel are simple truths. But when you religionist get through with it no one can understand it.

You go against God's words. God says something and you say, "Did God really say ___?"

God really says to repent of sins. God really does say to obey Him.

God really says He hardened Pharaoh.

You don't believe God.

Robert Pate
June 11th, 2017, 03:33 PM
You go against God's words. God says something and you say, "Did God really say ___?"

God really says to repent of sins. God really does say to obey Him.

God really says He hardened Pharaoh.

You don't believe God.

You don't have to repent if you are already perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.

You are under the law and are subject to the law, 1 Timothy 1:9,10.

God's Truth
June 11th, 2017, 04:13 PM
You don't have to repent if you are already perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.

You are under the law and are subject to the law, 1 Timothy 1:9,10.

You will not be in Christ unless you repent.

Ask Mr. Religion
June 11th, 2017, 05:45 PM
You are led far away from the Bible and not because of God, but because of false teachers who tickled your ears. You should have been more careful, as God warns us to be.
Yikes. Someone new comes along and you are all over him like a cheap suit.

False teachers?

Beam. Eye. Remove it.

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?97148-One-on-One-AMR-and-God-s-Truth-%E2%80%94-The-Holy-Trinity

AMR

Robert Pate
June 11th, 2017, 05:50 PM
You will not be in Christ unless you repent.

You apparently think that salvation is the results of what you do.

God's Truth
June 11th, 2017, 06:36 PM
You apparently think that salvation is the results of what you do.

HAHAHAHAHAHA do you have to believe? Do you not know that Jesus tells us to believe?

How did you do that without obeying? Maybe you should become a Calvinist.

God's Truth
June 11th, 2017, 06:37 PM
Yikes. Someone new comes along and you are all over him like a cheap suit.

False teachers?

Beam. Eye. Remove it.

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?97148-One-on-One-AMR-and-God-s-Truth-%E2%80%94-The-Holy-Trinity

AMR

Is that what the devil gave you, insults?

Lon
June 11th, 2017, 07:15 PM
We do have free will and you misused those scriptures.

Just because God knew that the leaders would have him killed does not mean he made them do that.

Yep, all unbelievers have a will free from God and no desire to deny self, take up their cross, and follow Him.
Contrast: A new believer is no longer self-willed, and is controlled by the Spirit to follow the things of the Spirit. Which are you? Free or Constrained in Christ? 2 Corinthians 5:14 Christ's love "contrains" me. You? You have freewill :noway:

Titus 1:7 "...NOT selfwilled...." :think: Thanks for making your erroneous position so clear to us, GT. It is YOUR truth however, not God's. He called/calls you to something better. In YOUR freewill, you have refused. Good job. Proud of your arrogant prideful self-will? Luke 22:42 Matthew 6:10 How is your FREE will working out for you? Mine was leading to death. Proverbs 14:12; 16:25

God's Truth
June 11th, 2017, 08:05 PM
Yep, all unbelievers have a will free from God and no desire to deny self, take up their cross, and follow Him.
Contrast: A new believer is no longer self-willed, and is controlled by the Spirit to follow the things of the Spirit. Which are you? Free or Constrained in Christ? 2 Corinthians 5:14 Christ's love "contrains" me. You? You have freewill :noway:

Titus 1:7 "...NOT selfwilled...." :think: Thanks for making your erroneous position so clear to us, GT. It is YOUR truth however, not God's. He called/calls you to something better. In YOUR freewill, you have refused. Good job. Proud of your arrogant prideful self-will? Luke 22:42 Matthew 6:10 How is your FREE will working out for you? Mine was leading to death. Proverbs 14:12; 16:25
Your free will led you to believe in John Calvin.

Your beliefs are nowhere in the Bible, it is a made up belief from the imagination of men, and you know where that comes from, right?

Prove me wrong by showing one scripture that says God saves unbelievers.

Show a scripture that says we cannot believe and obey God by hearing about Him.

Ask Mr. Religion
June 11th, 2017, 11:32 PM
Prove me wrong...


Done:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?97148-One-on-One-AMR-and-God-s-Truth-%E2%80%94-The-Holy-Trinity

Be still now. :AMR:

AMR

Lon
June 12th, 2017, 12:14 AM
Your free will led you to believe in John Calvin.
ABSOLUTELY not. I resisted Calvinism. It assaulted my sense of self and my FreeWill. Do you know ANYTHING about Calvinism? :doh:



Your beliefs are nowhere in the Bible, it is a made up belief from the imagination of men, and you know where that comes from, right?
I Just 1) Gave and 2) Explained a LOT of scriptures. You? Trolling the thread with your whimpy 'nuh uh's' and free-will assertions. Did you pray first? Of course not! You are free willed. You didn't need to pray. Me? I prayed for us both and asked God to help me address specifically, your free will, and your NEED for His-Will. You NEED to be His-Willed. We all do. I pray for nothing less. I could give a rip about your or my free-will. We express THAT all day long on TOL. We NEED to be concerned and in Love, with His Will.


Prove me wrong by showing one scripture that says God saves unbelievers.1 Corinthians 1:18


Show a scripture that says we cannot believe and obey God by hearing about Him.
John 6:44 Now let's talk about your freewill. I believe you lose it when/if you come to Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:17

I've prayed over these scriptures, they are the power of God. Please read them and be HIS willed. -Lon

God's Truth
June 12th, 2017, 04:44 AM
Done:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?97148-One-on-One-AMR-and-God-s-Truth-%E2%80%94-The-Holy-Trinity

Be still now. :AMR:

AMR

Thanks for constantly trying to lead others to learn about how the trinity doctrine is wrong.

God's Truth
June 12th, 2017, 05:02 AM
ABSOLUTELY not. I resisted Calvinism. It assaulted my sense of self and my FreeWill. Do you know ANYTHING about Calvinism?
You just showed you had free will when you said you resisted.



I Just 1) Gave and 2) Explained a LOT of scriptures. You? Trolling the thread with your whimpy 'nuh uh's' and free-will assertions. Did you pray first? Of course not! You are free willed. You didn't need to pray.
What in the world are you talking about?



Me? I prayed for us both and asked God to help me address specifically, your free will, and your NEED for His-Will. You NEED to be His-Willed. We all do. I pray for nothing less. I could give a rip about your or my free-will. We express THAT all day long on TOL. We NEED to be concerned and in Love, with His Will.
All you have shown is that you contradict yourself repeatedly.



1 Corinthians 1:18
That scripture does NOT say God saves unbelievers. You should reconsider believing in something taught by John Calvin that is nowhere in the scriptures.

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the word of the cross {Gr. stauros – stake} is foolishness to those that perish, but unto us who are saved, it is the power of God.

Question yourself better. Where does that scripture say God saves unbelievers?



John 6:44

That is the scripture you gave in reply to my saying, “Show a scripture that says we cannot believe and obey God by hearing about Him.”

Did you ever read the very next scripture of that scripture you choose that actually rebukes you?

Read it here and now:

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that has heard, and has learned of the Father, comes unto me.


That scripture among many prove that we believe in God after learning of Him.

Faith is from God, from reading His powerful message, the Bible, the New Testament. It has the powerful message that saves. We do not get faith supernaturally, as many teach, but we get faith in a very human way, from reading the supernatural message!

Where does our faith come from? Our faith comes from HEARING the word, see Romans 10:17. From hearing the word and being TAUGHT, Colossians 1:5, 7. From continuing in what we have been CONVINCED of, see 2 Timothy 3:14, and being PERSUADED, 2 Corinthians 5:11. In Acts 26:17 Jesus tells Paul he is sending him to the Jews and Gentiles to OPEN THEIR EYES and turn them from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God. How do you think Paul is going to open the eyes of the Jews and the Gentiles? Remember, faith comes from hearing the word, and Jesus sent Paul to preach the gospel. 1 Corinthians 1:18 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel–not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Paul is going to open their eyes by preaching to them.


Read what Paul says in Romans 16:25-27. Now to him who is able to ESTABLISH YOU BY MY GOSPEL AND THE PROCLAMATION OF JESUS CHRIST, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and MADE KNOWN THROUGH THE PROPHETIC WRITINGS by the command of the eternal God, SO THAT ALL NATIONS MIGHT BELIEVE AND OBEY HIM–to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.




Now let's talk about your freewill. I believe you lose it when/if you come to Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:17

I've prayed over these scriptures, they are the power of God. Please read them and be HIS willed. –Lon
What you have done is given up the truth for John Calvin’s false teachings.
If you had only done what Jesus said to do, you would not have been entrapped in false doctrines.

Robert Pate
June 12th, 2017, 02:13 PM
You go against the truth of free will. You say a person cannot believe and obey, and then you go against those who say we do not have free will.

You both are in falseness.

Everyone is born with the ability to have faith in God and his Son Jesus Christ. If you don't trust in Christ as your savior, you are without an excuse, Romans 1:18, 19.

God's Truth
June 12th, 2017, 03:22 PM
Everyone is born with the ability to have faith in God and his Son Jesus Christ. If you don't trust in Christ as your savior, you are without an excuse, Romans 1:18, 19.

That scripture rebukes you.

This is a serious matter when people go against obeying Jesus.

I am seeing a power over people that is not good, even sinister.

Lon
June 12th, 2017, 04:08 PM
You just showed you had free will when you said you resisted.
Exactly. I 'used' to have freewill.

What in the world are you talking about?

Very simply: One of us didn't commune with God before posting yesterday and today. You didn't IOW, render any of this to God. Why ARE you doing it GT? :think:


All you have shown is that you contradict yourself repeatedly.
:( Only one who isn't God-willed would say that :(



That is the scripture you gave in reply to my saying, “Show a scripture that says we cannot believe and obey God by hearing about Him.”
:nono: You never asked that question. It might have 'meant' that in your mind, but nobody can read your mind. You are not careful in your questions.
An unbeliever will hear without ears. A believer hears, and it/He becomes a part of him/her. More precisely, simply say what you don't believe about Calvinism or what you think something means about Calvinism. Scriptures would help (you hadn't used any at all and this is the first post where you only posted 1 scripture. Make a statement, use scriptures to back up that statement.



John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that has heard, and has learned of the Father, comes unto me.

That scripture among many prove that we believe in God after learning of Him.
You are trying to carry on a conversation you had with Nang, with others. Basically, you are talking about synergism, vs. monergism, as well as "What God did and what I did when I was saved."

Don't jump the gun. You can't jump in the middle of a conversation you had with one Calvinist, and then assume another will be able to understand where you are picking up from. In order to have this conversation with me, I'd want to go back to the beginning of it, like you did with Nang. My conversation would have to start with "What does Salvation mean?" For me, it isn't a prayer I prayed one day, though that was involved. There was a LOT more going on regarding Salvation, the day I believed.


What you have done is given up the truth for John Calvin’s false teachings.
If you had only done what Jesus said to do, you would not have been entrapped in false doctrines.
NOBODY believes in your version of things GT. I've seen MAD, Calvinists, and Arminians ALL disagree with your version of things. You have a lot of private interpretations, so I'm not really interested in what you 'feel' or think. I'm interested in what you can prove, not assert. You aren't a 'proving' kind of person. You've used only one verse in this thread. The rest is all your assertions and emoting. Without God behind you? Not worth anything. Scripture is the ONLY thing with power and you don't use it :( Don't just mindlessly mishandle accusatory scriptures either, all of us can 'find' scriptures that condemn another, rather learn to use scripture to prove your points against any one Calvinist doctrine.

Because you rarely/never do? Nobody listens to you. I've still got you on ignore most of the time. You simply are not a workman approved.
2 Timothy 2:15

God's Truth
June 12th, 2017, 08:44 PM
Exactly. I 'used' to have freewill.

Very simply: One of us didn't commune with God before posting yesterday and today. You didn't IOW, render any of this to God. Why ARE you doing it GT? :think:

:( Only one who isn't God-willed would say that :(



:nono: You never asked that question. It might have 'meant' that in your mind, but nobody can read your mind. You are not careful in your questions.
An unbeliever will hear without ears. A believer hears, and it/He becomes a part of him/her. More precisely, simply say what you don't believe about Calvinism or what you think something means about Calvinism. Scriptures would help (you hadn't used any at all and this is the first post where you only posted 1 scripture. Make a statement, use scriptures to back up that statement.



You are trying to carry on a conversation you had with Nang, with others. Basically, you are talking about synergism, vs. monergism, as well as "What God did and what I did when I was saved."

Don't jump the gun. You can't jump in the middle of a conversation you had with one Calvinist, and then assume another will be able to understand where you are picking up from. In order to have this conversation with me, I'd want to go back to the beginning of it, like you did with Nang. My conversation would have to start with "What does Salvation mean?" For me, it isn't a prayer I prayed one day, though that was involved. There was a LOT more going on regarding Salvation, the day I believed.


NOBODY believes in your version of things GT. I've seen MAD, Calvinists, and Arminians ALL disagree with your version of things. You have a lot of private interpretations, so I'm not really interested in what you 'feel' or think. I'm interested in what you can prove, not assert. You aren't a 'proving' kind of person. You've used only one verse in this thread. The rest is all your assertions and emoting. Without God behind you? Not worth anything. Scripture is the ONLY thing with power and you don't use it :( Don't just mindlessly mishandle accusatory scriptures either, all of us can 'find' scriptures that condemn another, rather learn to use scripture to prove your points against any one Calvinist doctrine.

Because you rarely/never do? Nobody listens to you. I've still got you on ignore most of the time. You simply are not a workman approved.
2 Timothy 2:15

I just can't bring myself to read this, torturous.

I am trying desperately to read this...

'God behind me', are you okay?

I will try to read more later.

God's Truth
June 12th, 2017, 08:52 PM
Lon, I love debating God's Truth, but there are people I can barely force myself to debate. You are one of them, and Squeaky is another, EvilEye, Cherubram, Nihlio, Jacob, and some others.

Lon
June 12th, 2017, 09:47 PM
I just can't bring myself to read this, torturous.
Typical. It is why I have you on ignore. Truth can hurt, but it is not meant to harm. You need some things and you need to do some things.


I am trying desperately to read this...
:up:


'God behind me', are you okay?
Do you argue just to argue, or are you in communion with God and His word when you are posting on TOL?
To me? Without scriptures coming to mind, it is just you. Me? I give scriptures.


Lon, I love debating God's Truth, but there are people I can barely force myself to debate. You are one of them, and Squeaky is another, EvilEye, Cherubram, Nihlio, Jacob, and some others.
I knew I wasn't alone by a long shot on that list. Many people entertain your debates. I endeavor to look at why the debate exists in the first place. I want to know what motivates another. I want to see if I can help them think better than just emoting over something. You don't have to be a Calvinist, few of us are. You do have to be a biblical thinker and that requires time in His Word, that it'd pour out of your thoughts readily. Matthew 4:4 Isaiah 55:11 Sometimes I have to look up a reference, but the more time you spend in God's Word, the more it should pour forth from your thoughts. A lot of TOLer's only do word searches instead of drawing from their rich time with the Lord Jesus Christ. When God is 'behind' your interactions on TOL, it will show. You bet, I'm okay for mentioning it. I generally know who has been doing their devotions in the morning and who hasn't. -Lon

glorydaz
June 12th, 2017, 10:28 PM
Done:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?97148-One-on-One-AMR-and-God-s-Truth-%E2%80%94-The-Holy-Trinity

Be still now. :AMR:

AMR

:e4e:

God's Truth
June 13th, 2017, 01:18 AM
Typical. It is why I have you on ignore. Truth can hurt, but it is not meant to harm. You need some things and you need to do some things.


:up:

Do you argue just to argue, or are you in communion with God and His word when you are posting on TOL?
To me? Without scriptures coming to mind, it is just you. Me? I give scriptures.


I knew I wasn't alone by a long shot on that list. Many people entertain your debates. I endeavor to look at why the debate exists in the first place. I want to know what motivates another. I want to see if I can help them think better than just emoting over something. You don't have to be a Calvinist, few of us are. You do have to be a biblical thinker and that requires time in His Word, that it'd pour out of your thoughts readily. Matthew 4:4 Isaiah 55:11 Sometimes I have to look up a reference, but the more time you spend in God's Word, the more it should pour forth from your thoughts. A lot of TOLer's only do word searches instead of drawing from their rich time with the Lord Jesus Christ. When God is 'behind' your interactions on TOL, it will show. You bet, I'm okay for mentioning it. I generally know who has been doing their devotions in the morning and who hasn't. -Lon

First go God then go I.

Epoisses
June 13th, 2017, 06:16 AM
I knew I wasn't alone by a long shot on that list. Many people entertain your debates. I endeavor to look at why the debate exists in the first place. I want to know what motivates another. I want to see if I can help them think better than just emoting over something. You don't have to be a Calvinist, few of us are. You do have to be a biblical thinker and that requires time in His Word, that it'd pour out of your thoughts readily. Matthew 4:4 Isaiah 55:11 Sometimes I have to look up a reference, but the more time you spend in God's Word, the more it should pour forth from your thoughts. A lot of TOLer's only do word searches instead of drawing from their rich time with the Lord Jesus Christ. When God is 'behind' your interactions on TOL, it will show. You bet, I'm okay for mentioning it. I generally know who has been doing their devotions in the morning and who hasn't. -Lon

This from the deceiver who turns Universalism into unlimited atonement. You're not fooling anyone with your limited intellect derived from your limited atonement where Christ is turned into a bigot.

beloved57
June 13th, 2017, 07:19 AM
Everyone has a free will. It would not be possible to function in life without the ability to make choices and decisions. What do you think that you are a puppet and God is pulling your strings? Your post is insulting to common sense. I don't reject Jesus as you falsely accuse me of doing. I fully and completely accept the Jesus of the Bible. It is the Jesus of Calvinism that is a false Jesus that cannot atone for the sins of the world. You arguments are baseless and indicate that you are lost.

Numerous false statements, for instance "everyone has a freewill" not one scripture says that. Pateism teaches that sinners Christ has atoned for are still lost, hence denying that Christ's Death alone saved them He died for !

Robert Pate
June 13th, 2017, 07:26 AM
Numerous false statements, for instance "everyone has a freewill" not one scripture says that. Pateism teaches that sinners Christ has atoned for are still lost, hence denying that Christ's Death alone saved them He died for !

Who was it that turned on you computer this morning? Was it God?

beloved57
June 13th, 2017, 08:00 AM
Who was it that turned on you computer this morning? Was it God?
There's not one scripture that says man has a freewill, it's one of the biggest lies ever!

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

Robert Pate
June 13th, 2017, 10:07 AM
There's not one scripture that says man has a freewill, it's one of the biggest lies ever!

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

God doesn't have to tell you that you have a freewill. Common sense should tell you that.

beloved57
June 13th, 2017, 10:37 AM
God doesn't have to tell you that you have a freewill. Common sense should tell you that.

Your god is mans freewill, salvation not by the blood of Christ, but by the freewil of man !

Robert Pate
June 13th, 2017, 11:14 AM
Your god is mans freewill, salvation not by the blood of Christ, but by the freewil of man !

"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Sounds like free will to me.

beloved57
June 13th, 2017, 12:07 PM
"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Sounds like free will to me.

You call upon the name of freewill, thats your saviour since you believe sinners Christ died for are lost stilln!

JudgeRightly
June 13th, 2017, 12:23 PM
You call upon the name of freewill, thats your saviour since you believe sinners Christ died for are lost stilln!

They are lost because they willingly reject Christ's gift. Christ died for all mankind. But that doesn't mean that all mankind will accept Him.

Lon
June 14th, 2017, 06:14 PM
This from the deceiver who turns Universalism into unlimited atonement. You're not fooling anyone with your limited intellect derived from your limited atonement where Christ is turned into a bigot.

Look, you have your own issues. I've put you on ignore simply because you don't know me. If I'm not a Calvinist in your mind, no problem. If I am, no problem. I don't care about labels. The problem is your own. You ran in swinging like a son of thunder calling down fire. Take a step back, assess rightly, then emote all you like. Leading with your emotions, you've marginalized yourself. REGARDLESS if we agree or disagree on anything, you CAN learn from those like you and those who think differently. I do all the time. Go ahead and attack all you like. On ignore, I don't even see it most of the time. Because you happened to post after me? I thought I'd try and address some of your unfounded angst. You have no 'godly' reason for it. Jesus loved His sons of thunder, James and John, but John became a lover. Learn(not from me, from the Lord Jesus). Be a lover first, you'll fight fairly after that. Until then? You've been incredibly unfair and mean without foundation. In Him -Lon

meshak
June 14th, 2017, 08:16 PM
Look, you have your own issues. I've put you on ignore simply because you don't know me.


Lon, you put your enemy Christians on ignore when you don't know how to refute.

You have evaded most of the questions I asked you.

You don't know how to put Jesus' teachings into practice like most of churchgoers. My questions are all Jesus' teachings related.

You have no idea how to converse about Jesus' simple teachings because it is not in your daily life.

Christianity is practical, not just concept.

His followers are supposed to live what Jesus teaches.

Epoisses
June 14th, 2017, 08:49 PM
Look, you have your own issues. I've put you on ignore simply because you don't know me. If I'm not a Calvinist in your mind, no problem. If I am, no problem. I don't care about labels. The problem is your own. You ran in swinging like a son of thunder calling down fire. Take a step back, assess rightly, then emote all you like. Leading with your emotions, you've marginalized yourself. REGARDLESS if we agree or disagree on anything, you CAN learn from those like you and those who think differently. I do all the time. Go ahead and attack all you like. On ignore, I don't even see it most of the time. Because you happened to post after me? I thought I'd try and address some of your unfounded angst. You have no 'godly' reason for it. Jesus loved His sons of thunder, James and John, but John became a lover. Learn(not from me, from the Lord Jesus). Be a lover first, you'll fight fairly after that. Until then? You've been incredibly unfair and mean without foundation. In Him -Lon

Go cry to Knight, loser!

JudgeRightly
June 14th, 2017, 08:57 PM
Lon, you put your enemy Christians on ignore when you don't know how to refute.

You have evaded most of the questions I asked you.

Projection, much?


You don't know how to put Jesus' teachings into practice like most of churchgoers. My questions are all Jesus' teachings related.

Says the one who rejects what Paul says about his message being from Christ Himself.


You have no idea how to converse about Jesus' simple teachings because it is not in your daily life.

It's not that you don't know how to conversate, it's that you're completely unwilling to.


Christianity is practical, not just concept.
His followers are supposed to live what Jesus teaches.

That only works if you know what He says throughout the Bible, which you clearly do not.

Charles94
June 14th, 2017, 09:32 PM
Everyone has a free will. It would not be possible to function in life without the ability to make choices and decisions. What do you think that you are a puppet and God is pulling your strings? Your post is insulting to common sense.

We do have the “ability to make choices and decisions.” We certainly have a will.

Spurgeon addressed that in his sermon – Free Will, a Slave - “The will is well known by all to be directed by the understanding, to be moved by motives, to be guided by other parts of the soul, and to be a secondary thing.”

Which is to say that the sort of “free” will that you teach turns into a logical train wreck, in that you suggest that we make choices randomly or for no reason at all. I have a friend who hates the taste of mushrooms and is allergic to them to the point she becomes violently ill when she eats them, so she has no “free will” in ordering mushrooms. (It's like you think when you went into the voting booth that you had a 30% chance of voting for Hillary Clinton, even if you thought that she was the worst possible candidate? That you might vote for Hillary as your will “freely” ignored your intellect and sense of right and wrong? How is it “common sense” that you are “free” to choose what you hate and despise?)

Rather, our choices (i.e. our wills) reflect and are constrained by our understanding, our worldview, our desires, our emotions...our natures. That's why Jesus teaches that those with “enmity against God” who think His teachings are “foolishness” cannot come to Him – their whole being despises Him, so they have zero motivation to choose Him. And you cannot simply decide to change your nature:

Jer13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.

But this is all through the Bible, that our choices (and subsequent actions) reflect who we are inside:

Luke6:43-45 “For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

James3:12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh.

John8:42-44,47 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do...He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

John10:26 Jesus answered them, “...But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep..."

You probably teach the opposite of this, “that if someone believes in Jesus, that they will become His sheep.” Jesus instead taught that if your nature is that of His sheep, then you will naturally believe. If God were your Father (i.e. if you are “of God” and have been born of the Spirit), then love for Him would spring out of that new spiritual nature. We need a new nature in order to have new desires and motivations, as without the Spirit, men have their minds set on the things of the flesh and are at enmity with God. Rom8:5-8

1Cor2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

John14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper...the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him...

John6:44,65 And Jesus said to them...“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day...And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

No one "can" come, no one "can" understand and receive the gospel. Any grammar school teacher will tell you that they “may” come – they are invited to come – but the problem is that they lack the ability. They are invited to come if they wanted to (and every Calvinist agrees that if they came, they would be accepted), but they will never want to – it would never make any sense to them.

Charles94
June 14th, 2017, 09:39 PM
We do have free will...

Here's one Bible story:

2Kings6:15 And when the servant of the man of God arose early and went out, there was an army, surrounding the city with horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, “Alas, my master! What shall we do?”

16 So he answered, “Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” 17 And Elisha prayed, and said, “Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” Then the Lord opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

As a fan of free will, you may be curious about the servant. We are not specifically told if he was still fearful after his eyes were opened. I can tell you that seeing both the love and power of God revealed in God's powerful defense of them turned everything upside down for him – he would not respond randomly, as his perspective was changed and he understood things he did not understand before, so there was no possibility of fear of the small pathetic human army. As I said before, people simply don't choose things for no reason – instead they make choices that reflect their worldview, their personality, their reasoning, their desires – people make choices that reflect who they are.


Just because God knew that the leaders would have him killed does not mean he made them do that.

No Calvinist that I know of has ever claimed that “God made them do that.” Congrats on the non sequitur. The Jewish leaders did what they wanted (and God knew 700 years before and inspired Isaiah to write chapter53 in anticipation of their disobedience) – the question I'm trying to get you to address is “why do you think they were free to do something they didn't want to do (in this case, repent and follow Jesus rather than perjure themselves and have Him killed)? And secondly, have you not considered that when you claim that they have free will, you make a parallel claim that they had the power to make God a liar...to prove His prophetic Spirit false?

God didn't make Peter deny Jesus. If Peter were a 21st century sci-fi fan, he possibly might have kept Jesus' prophecy in mind and made a different choice. But Peter was a 1st century fisherman whose world was falling apart and he feared for his life, so he made the only choice that made sense to him. Peter wasn't a puppet – he was acting exactly like Peter in that circumstance. The question I'm asking you is, “why do you suppose Peter was “free” to choose what made no sense to him at that time?” If God at least knew Peter's decision beforehand, can we at least agree that Peter was not “free” in any sense to do otherwise?

That God hardened Pharaoh is only an issue for those with Robert's out-of-context interpretation of 2Pet3:9. God would not have to harden Pharaoh to get him to disobey, Pharaoh wanted to disobey all along...but God was certainly free to harden him to bring about a specific type of disobedience, such that the Passover/Lord's Supper would be established. OTOH, Paul was like any other unbelieving Pharisee externally (zeal without knowledge) and if God had hardened him in his rebellion no one could say he didn't deserve it... but God was free to set Paul apart from birth and miraculously meet him on the road to Damascus to blind him so that his spiritual eyes could be opened. (He was blind, but now, he sees. That would make a good song – and of course, “Amazing Grace” was written by a Calvinist.)

Charles94
June 14th, 2017, 10:00 PM
Yikes. Someone new comes along and you are all over him like a cheap suit.

Thanks but I signed the waiver when I signed up. I know anathemas will be hurled from many a parent's basement... :)

Nang
June 14th, 2017, 10:14 PM
Here's one Bible story:

2Kings6:15 And when the servant of the man of God arose early and went out, there was an army, surrounding the city with horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, “Alas, my master! What shall we do?”

16 So he answered, “Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” 17 And Elisha prayed, and said, “Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” Then the Lord opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

As a fan of free will, you may be curious about the servant. We are not specifically told if he was still fearful after his eyes were opened. I can tell you that seeing both the love and power of God revealed in God's powerful defense of them turned everything upside down for him – he would not respond randomly, as his perspective was changed and he understood things he did not understand before, so there was no possibility of fear of the small pathetic human army. As I said before, people simply don't choose things for no reason – instead they make choices that reflect their worldview, their personality, their reasoning, their desires – people make choices that reflect who they are.



No Calvinist that I know of has ever claimed that “God made them do that.” Congrats on the non sequitur. The Jewish leaders did what they wanted (and God knew 700 years before and inspired Isaiah to write chapter53 in anticipation of their disobedience) – the question I'm trying to get you to address is “why do you think they were free to do something they didn't want to do (in this case, repent and follow Jesus rather than perjure themselves and have Him killed)? And secondly, have you not considered that when you claim that they have free will, you make a parallel claim that they had the power to make God a liar...to prove His prophetic Spirit false?

God didn't make Peter deny Jesus. If Peter were a 21st century sci-fi fan, he possibly might have kept Jesus' prophecy in mind and made a different choice. But Peter was a 1st century fisherman whose world was falling apart and he feared for his life, so he made the only choice that made sense to him. Peter wasn't a puppet – he was acting exactly like Peter in that circumstance. The question I'm asking you is, “why do you suppose Peter was “free” to choose what made no sense to him at that time?” If God at least knew Peter's decision beforehand, can we at least agree that Peter was not “free” in any sense to do otherwise?

That God hardened Pharaoh is only an issue for those with Robert's out-of-context interpretation of 2Pet3:9. God would not have to harden Pharaoh to get him to disobey, Pharaoh wanted to disobey all along...but God was certainly free to harden him to bring about a specific type of disobedience, such that the Passover/Lord's Supper would be established. OTOH, Paul was like any other unbelieving Pharisee externally (zeal without knowledge) and if God had hardened him in his rebellion no one could say he didn't deserve it... but God was free to set Paul apart from birth and miraculously meet him on the road to Damascus to blind him so that his spiritual eyes could be opened. (He was blind, but now, he sees. That would make a good song – and of course, “Amazing Grace” was written by a Calvinist.)

The Reformer acknowledges that all the incidents posted above, were worked by God to make His power known.

Calvinism is represented on TOL for the same purpose, IMO.

Welcome to TOL Charles94!

Nang

God's Truth
June 14th, 2017, 10:51 PM
Here's one Bible story:

2Kings6:15 And when the servant of the man of God arose early and went out, there was an army, surrounding the city with horses and chariots. And his servant said to him, “Alas, my master! What shall we do?”

16 So he answered, “Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” 17 And Elisha prayed, and said, “Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” Then the Lord opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

As a fan of free will, you may be curious about the servant. We are not specifically told if he was still fearful after his eyes were opened. I can tell you that seeing both the love and power of God revealed in God's powerful defense of them turned everything upside down for him – he would not respond randomly, as his perspective was changed and he understood things he did not understand before, so there was no possibility of fear of the small pathetic human army. As I said before, people simply don't choose things for no reason – instead they make choices that reflect their worldview, their personality, their reasoning, their desires – people make choices that reflect who they are.
How do you ever get that scripture is about no free will?

God hardening Pharaoh is proof that people can believe and obey, or else God would not have needed to harden Pharaoh.



No Calvinist that I know of has ever claimed that “God made them do that.” Congrats on the non sequitur.

Your not understanding does not make what I said untrue. You just don't have a grasp on what your doctrines imply.




The Jewish leaders did what they wanted (and God knew 700 years before and inspired Isaiah to write chapter53 in anticipation of their disobedience) – the question I'm trying to get you to address is “why do you think they were free to do something they didn't want to do (in this case, repent and follow Jesus rather than perjure themselves and have Him killed)?
God tells us why people do not believe and obey Him, and none of those reasons are what you say is the reason, none.

God says people do not believe and obey because they are stubborn and rebellious, and that they choose what displeases Him, etc. No such scripture saying they couldn't believe and obey.



And secondly, have you not considered that when you claim that they have free will, you make a parallel claim that they had the power to make God a liar...to prove His prophetic Spirit false?
I have no idea what you are talking about.



God didn't make Peter deny Jesus. If Peter were a 21st century sci-fi fan, he possibly might have kept Jesus' prophecy in mind and made a different choice. But Peter was a 1st century fisherman whose world was falling apart and he feared for his life, so he made the only choice that made sense to him. Peter wasn't a puppet – he was acting exactly like Peter in that circumstance. The question I'm asking you is, “why do you suppose Peter was “free” to choose what made no sense to him at that time?” If God at least knew Peter's decision beforehand, can we at least agree that Peter was not “free” in any sense to do otherwise?
Peter had free will and later did overcome his fear for he is known to have been martyred.



That God hardened Pharaoh is only an issue for those with Robert's out-of-context interpretation of 2Pet3:9. God would not have to harden Pharaoh to get him to disobey, Pharaoh wanted to disobey all along...but God was certainly free to harden him to bring about a specific type of disobedience, such that the Passover/Lord's Supper would be established.

No, Pharaoh was going to believe and obey, but God hardened him so that he could not.

Exodus 4:21 he LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 10:1
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them,



OTOH, Paul was like any other unbelieving Pharisee externally (zeal without knowledge) and if God had hardened him in his rebellion no one could say he didn't deserve it... but God was free to set Paul apart from birth and miraculously meet him on the road to Damascus to blind him so that his spiritual eyes could be opened. (He was blind, but now, he sees. That would make a good song – and of course, “Amazing Grace” was written by a Calvinist.)

It is ironic that Paul's testimony proves Calvinism false. Paul wasn't saved on that road to Damascus. By then, Paul believed in Jesus but was not yet saved. That proves Calvinism is a false doctrine.

Robert Pate
June 15th, 2017, 10:05 AM
We do have the “ability to make choices and decisions.” We certainly have a will.

Spurgeon addressed that in his sermon – Free Will, a Slave - “The will is well known by all to be directed by the understanding, to be moved by motives, to be guided by other parts of the soul, and to be a secondary thing.”

Which is to say that the sort of “free” will that you teach turns into a logical train wreck, in that you suggest that we make choices randomly or for no reason at all. I have a friend who hates the taste of mushrooms and is allergic to them to the point she becomes violently ill when she eats them, so she has no “free will” in ordering mushrooms. (It's like you think when you went into the voting booth that you had a 30% chance of voting for Hillary Clinton, even if you thought that she was the worst possible candidate? That you might vote for Hillary as your will “freely” ignored your intellect and sense of right and wrong? How is it “common sense” that you are “free” to choose what you hate and despise?)

Rather, our choices (i.e. our wills) reflect and are constrained by our understanding, our worldview, our desires, our emotions...our natures. That's why Jesus teaches that those with “enmity against God” who think His teachings are “foolishness” cannot come to Him – their whole being despises Him, so they have zero motivation to choose Him. And you cannot simply decide to change your nature:

Jer13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.

But this is all through the Bible, that our choices (and subsequent actions) reflect who we are inside:

Luke6:43-45 “For a good tree does not bear bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. For every tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they gather grapes from a bramble bush. A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.

James3:12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Thus no spring yields both salt water and fresh.

John8:42-44,47 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do...He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

John10:26 Jesus answered them, “...But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep..."

You probably teach the opposite of this, “that if someone believes in Jesus, that they will become His sheep.” Jesus instead taught that if your nature is that of His sheep, then you will naturally believe. If God were your Father (i.e. if you are “of God” and have been born of the Spirit), then love for Him would spring out of that new spiritual nature. We need a new nature in order to have new desires and motivations, as without the Spirit, men have their minds set on the things of the flesh and are at enmity with God. Rom8:5-8

1Cor2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

John14:16-17 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper...the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him...

John6:44,65 And Jesus said to them...“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day...And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

No one "can" come, no one "can" understand and receive the gospel. Any grammar school teacher will tell you that they “may” come – they are invited to come – but the problem is that they lack the ability. They are invited to come if they wanted to (and every Calvinist agrees that if they came, they would be accepted), but they will never want to – it would never make any sense to them.

HOGWASH!

Everyone is born with the ability to believe and have faith in God and his Son Jesus Christ.

They don't come because they love their sins more than they love Christ. If God did not give everyone the ability to believe and have faith in Christ he would be unjust. You believe the same garbage that Calvinist believe, God is an unjust villain.

Charles94
June 15th, 2017, 04:07 PM
God is just, kind and merciful and is not willing that any should perish, 2 Peter 3:9.

Getting back to your struggles with reading passages in context, there is a definite “us-them” dynamic in 2 Peter 3 that you are missing, or simply ignoring.

2Pet3 BELOVED, I now write to YOU this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that YOU may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, BELOVED, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering TOWARD US, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought YOU to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless WE, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
14 Therefore, BELOVED, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of OUR Lord is salvation...

The rest of the Bible does teach that God invites and commands every single person to repent and come to Him, sure, but that is not Peter's focus in this passage. Rather, the church was suffering persecution and was asking Peter, “Where is the second coming? We are in misery and are tempted to give up, so why can't Jesus come back right now?” Peter writes back to give them perspective and remind them that “the longsuffering (i.e. patience) of OUR Lord is both "toward us" (specifically) and that it definitely means salvation.

Peter is making no apologies herein for the judgment that is surely coming for “them/the scoffers/the ungodly." As in Psalm 73, their success is a vapor. But the Lord is patient “toward us” - not meaning toward those specific believers at that time; otherwise He might as well have come back then. But He is patient toward His Elect, in that some have still not come in the door through faith. He is patient “toward us” - not willing that any of us should perish but that all of us should come to repentance. Once all of His sheep have been completely gathered in, He will return as He said.

God's patience IS salvation (v15). Not *possible* salvation for some, whomever they turn out to be, as God uncertainly waits and hopes for the best (which is your position as you inexplicably interpret 2Pet3:9 as if God were being patient toward “them, the scoffers.") This passage instead teaches ACTUAL salvation is promised for Jesus' sheep as He shepherds them safely in, calling them by name. And those of us who are suffering (especially looking at the current news in China and Muslim countries) can trust that God's plan and timing are trustworthy, as we know we are not waiting in vain but that our brothers and sisters continue to be brought in to the fold.

Since you deny the God who knows the future and declares the end from the beginning, it does make sense that you would try to salvage this prooftext as a vague well-wishing towards everyone rather than a promise of God specifically for His beloved people, that they are not waiting and suffering in vain. But that is what it is.

Robert Pate
June 15th, 2017, 04:35 PM
Getting back to your struggles with reading passages in context, there is a definite “us-them” dynamic in 2 Peter 3 that you are missing, or simply ignoring.

2Pet3 BELOVED, I now write to YOU this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that YOU may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8 But, BELOVED, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering TOWARD US, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought YOU to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless WE, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
14 Therefore, BELOVED, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of OUR Lord is salvation...

The rest of the Bible does teach that God invites and commands every single person to repent and come to Him, sure, but that is not Peter's focus in this passage. Rather, the church was suffering persecution and was asking Peter, “Where is the second coming? We are in misery and are tempted to give up, so why can't Jesus come back right now?” Peter writes back to give them perspective and remind them that “the longsuffering (i.e. patience) of OUR Lord is both "toward us" (specifically) and that it definitely means salvation.

Peter is making no apologies herein for the judgment that is surely coming for “them/the scoffers/the ungodly." As in Psalm 73, their success is a vapor. But the Lord is patient “toward us” - not meaning toward those specific believers at that time; otherwise He might as well have come back then. But He is patient toward His Elect, in that some have still not come in the door through faith. He is patient “toward us” - not willing that any of us should perish but that all of us should come to repentance. Once all of His sheep have been completely gathered in, He will return as He said.

God's patience IS salvation (v15). Not *possible* salvation for some, whomever they turn out to be, as God uncertainly waits and hopes for the best (which is your position as you inexplicably interpret 2Pet3:9 as if God were being patient toward “them, the scoffers.") This passage instead teaches ACTUAL salvation is promised for Jesus' sheep as He shepherds them safely in, calling them by name. And those of us who are suffering (especially looking at the current news in China and Muslim countries) can trust that God's plan and timing are trustworthy, as we know we are not waiting in vain but that our brothers and sisters continue to be brought in to the fold.

Since you deny the God who knows the future and declares the end from the beginning, it does make sense that you would try to salvage this prooftext as a vague well-wishing towards everyone rather than a promise of God specifically for His beloved people, that they are not waiting and suffering in vain. But that is what it is.

The Bible plainly teaches that Jesus died for the sins of the Whole world, 1 john 2:2. To not believe that is to not believe the Gospel. Not only did Jesus atone for the sins of the whole world he also atoned for the sins of every individual, Hebrews 2:9. Does God know who will believe in his Son Jesus Christ and be saved? We don't know. God can limit himself if he so desires. Who is saved and who is lost will be revealed in the judgment, that is the purpose of the judgment. If God did not provide salvation for everyone he would be unjust and the lost would be able to accuse him of being unjust in the judgment. No one will be able to accuse God of being unjust. If God has already predetermined who is saved and who is lost then why have a judgment?

Charles94
June 15th, 2017, 04:56 PM
"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

This is why I wrote post #3. Yes, every single person is commanded to call on the name of the Lord. Yes, every single person who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. But you are assuming (based on a Western man-made philosophy going back to Aristotle) that the command necessarily means an implied ability to obey. You would actually need to prove that, not simply assume it.


Read this it shows that it matters on whether or not a person repents of their sins. God did not make people to not repent sins. God punishes people who do not repent of their sins.

Jeremiah 18...So turn from your evil ways, each one of you, and reform your ways and your actions.’

This is why I wrote post #3. Yes, every single person is commanded to repent and turn to the Lord. Yes, every single person who repents and turns to the Lord will be saved. But you are assuming (based on a Western man-made philosophy going back to Aristotle) that the command necessarily means an implied ability to obey. You would actually need to prove that, not simply assume it.

That people at enmity with God described in Romans 8 is the story of the whole Bible. It's definitely the story of the exiles of Jeremiah and Ezekiel's time. God invites the exiles to come to Him. They want “their” land back – they want His gifts - but they want nothing to do with God. He says they won't get the land back without turning to Him in faith. So what does God come up with to deal with this hard hearted people?

Ezek36:25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and CAUSE you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them....31 THEN you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations.

The timeline in this passage suggests that God gives a new heart and new spirit, which consequently results in repentance. There is a logical order to it. Water is a typical picture for us of the Spirit in both the OT and NT (Isa44:3; Acts10). Does it bother you that God changes their hearts first so that they will begin to worship Him (as hard hearted people have no interest in turning to God in faith) and that they only repented in v31 AFTER their stone hearts were replaced? That He put His Spirit in them to “cause” them to obey? (That is pretty unAmerican...)

Same kind of picture in Ezek37, God initiates a change in them and then they shall know that He is Lord:
Ezek37:1 The hand of the Lord came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones. 2 Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed they were very dry. 3 And He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” So I answered, “O Lord God, You know.”
4 Again He said to me, “Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones: “Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live. 6 I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the Lord.”

I know a lot of noncalvinists (like Robert Pate) who say that if man is really spiritually dead as Calvinists teach, they wouldn't bother with missions. But Calvinists preach the Gospel to all because, like Ezekiel, we believe that God has the power to raise the dead. There is no worry that their “free will” might send God's word back void – Isa55:11. (It's also worth pointing out that commanding the dry bones to “hear” does not mean they had the natural ability to hear.) While flesh only gives birth to flesh, God's Spirit gives birth to spirit. (John3:6) Even the language is weird, right? You do understand that you had zero freedom to determine your physical birth?

So God commands repentance and the Bible teaches that God gives repentance (and faith, for that matter – Phil1:29; Eph2:8-10).

2Tim2:25...in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth...

And believe me, I get that if Timothy were an American, he would ask the dunce question: “But Paul, what if God gives them repentance and they turn it down?” But he wasn't and therefore, didn't. When God gives someone repentance, you can tell...because there is actual, visible repentance. (Otherwise, Paul's words here are meaningless.)

Acts 11:18When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”

OTOH:

1Sam2:22-25Now Eli was very old; and he heard everything his sons did to all Israel, and how they lay with the women who assembled at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. So he said to them, “Why do you do such things? For I hear of your evil dealings from all the people. No, my sons! For it is not a good report that I hear. You make the Lord’s people transgress. If one man sins against another, God will judge him. But if a man sins against the Lord, who will intercede for him?” Nevertheless they did not heed the voice of their father, because the Lord desired to kill them.

So why didn't Eli's sons heed their father and repent? It's true that they were rebellious and hard hearted but that's not the reason that the Bible gives...

Epoisses
June 15th, 2017, 07:38 PM
Charles94 conveniently ignores 1John 2:2 which is the clearest verse of all that blows your limited atonement out of the water. Why is it that moderate or 4-point Calvinists reject limited atonement in such great numbers? Calvinism will be overthrown from within. All the Clavinists on this forum are of the minority position not the majority.

Brother Vinny
June 15th, 2017, 08:16 PM
Charles94 conveniently ignores 1John 2:2 which is the clearest verse of all that blows your limited atonement out of the water. Why is it that moderate or 4-point Calvinists reject limited atonement in such great numbers? Calvinism will be overthrown from within. All the Clavinists on this forum are of the minority position not the majority.

"For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." -- Matthew 7:14 ESV (emphasis added)

God's Truth
June 15th, 2017, 09:15 PM
This is why I wrote post #3. Yes, every single person is commanded to repent and turn to the Lord. Yes, every single person who repents and turns to the Lord will be saved. But you are assuming (based on a Western man-made philosophy going back to Aristotle) that the command necessarily means an implied ability to obey.
Yours is the man made teaching from Calvin who made it the most prominently known. Luther before him had a form of it. They both probably got some of it from their Catholic college teachings after studying Augustine and others.

Your beliefs are nowhere in the scriptures. God does not save unbelievers. Give one scripture that says God saves unbelievers and I would believe.


You would actually need to prove that, not simply assume it.
That is pretty presumptuous of you to say that.



That people at enmity with God described in Romans 8 is the story of the whole Bible. It's definitely the story of the exiles of Jeremiah and Ezekiel's time. God invites the exiles to come to Him. They want “their” land back – they want His gifts - but they want nothing to do with God. He says they won't get the land back without turning to Him in faith. So what does God come up with to deal with this hard hearted people?

Ezek36:25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and CAUSE you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them....31 THEN you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations.

The timeline in this passage suggests that God gives a new heart and new spirit, which consequently results in repentance. There is a logical order to it. Water is a typical picture for us of the Spirit in both the OT and NT (Isa44:3; Acts10). Does it bother you that God changes their hearts first so that they will begin to worship Him (as hard hearted people have no interest in turning to God in faith) and that they only repented in v31 AFTER their stone hearts were replaced? That He put His Spirit in them to “cause” them to obey? (That is pretty unAmerican...)
God did not give them a new heart because they did not repent.

Why do you think they died?

(Cont.)

beloved57
June 15th, 2017, 09:28 PM
Yours is the man made teaching from Calvin who made it the most prominently known. Luther before him had a form of it. They both probably got some of it from their Catholic college teachings after studying Augustine and others.

Your beliefs are nowhere in the scriptures. God does not save unbelievers. Give one scripture that says God saves unbelievers and I would believe.


That is pretty presumptuous of you to say that.


God did not give them a new heart because they did not repent.

Why do you think they died?

(Cont.)
False teaching not found in scripture! Those Christ died for are saved, reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers.

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God's Truth
June 15th, 2017, 09:31 PM
Same kind of picture in Ezek37, God initiates a change in them and then they shall know that He is Lord:
Ezek37:1 The hand of the Lord came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones. 2 Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed they were very dry. 3 And He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” So I answered, “O Lord God, You know.”
4 Again He said to me, “Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones: “Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live. 6 I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the Lord.”
All are going to be resurrected at the resurrection.



I know a lot of noncalvinists (like Robert Pate) who say that if man is really spiritually dead as Calvinists teach, they wouldn't bother with missions. But Calvinists preach the Gospel to all because, like Ezekiel, we believe that God has the power to raise the dead. There is no worry that their “free will” might send God's word back void –

Robert Pate is a false teacher.

The reason why we are to preach the true gospel to others is so that they can repent and be saved.

(Cont.)

JudgeRightly
June 15th, 2017, 09:32 PM
False teaching not found in scripture! Those Christ died for are saved, reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers.

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. - Romans 5:8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans5:8&version=NKJV

Christ died for us while we were sinners and unbelievers and enemies, yes. But people aren't saved just because he died. They have to repent/believe to be saved.

God's Truth
June 15th, 2017, 09:39 PM
Ezek36:25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and CAUSE you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them....31 THEN you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good; and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight, for your iniquities and your abominations.

I am glad you brought up Ezekiel; I know that is what Calvinists do, but they do not use this scripture because it rebukes them:

Ezekiel 18:31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?

Did you read that?

They have to rid themselves of their sins first. They have to repent.

God's Truth
June 15th, 2017, 09:48 PM
Isa55:11. (It's also worth pointing out that commanding the dry bones to “hear” does not mean they had the natural ability to hear.) While flesh only gives birth to flesh, God's Spirit gives birth to spirit. (John3:6) Even the language is weird, right? You do understand that you had zero freedom to determine your physical birth?
You are chasing your tail. We are talking about living people who want more out of life than just pleasing their flesh. We are not just flesh, we are flesh and spirit. Some people are only interested in pleasing their flesh with sinful acts, and there are others who are more spiritual and want more out of life. Those who come to Jesus to be saved and obey, they will be the one who are raised to eternal life; the other will be raised to eternal condemnation. That is what the resurrection is all about.

God's Truth
June 15th, 2017, 09:52 PM
And believe me, I get that if Timothy were an American, he would ask the dunce question: “But Paul, what if God gives them repentance and they turn it down?” But he wasn't and therefore, didn't. When God gives someone repentance, you can tell...because there is actual, visible repentance. (Otherwise, Paul's words here are meaningless.)

Try to consider this more carefully, it might cause you to repent of your false doctrines, if you humble yourself:

Paul is speaking to those who are standing before him, in case they who claim to have faith and who have not also REPENTED of their sins:

Romans 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

Saying you believe and have faith will do NOTHING FOR YOU if you did not repent.

Colossians 3:23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism.

God's Truth
June 15th, 2017, 09:55 PM
Acts 11:18When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.”

The scripture says when the GENTILES heard this they began rejoicing. Why do you think they were rejoicing? The Gentiles were just told that they could now have a relationship with God; they could now have eternal life. The Gentiles used to be excluded, and without God in the world, see Ephesians 2:12.

HOWEVER, NOW they were told they could have salvation! All those Gentiles who were there who heard the good news, that Gentiles as a race of people could now have eternal life, they believed. Gentiles as a nation of people were appointed to eternal life, not all Gentiles will have eternal life, and only the Gentiles who believe will have eternal life. The Gentiles who were appointed life---all those there at that time believed.

Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

There were Jews AND Gentiles in the crowd. All who were appointed [the Gentiles] in the crowd, all of them there believed.

God's Truth
June 15th, 2017, 09:59 PM
Calvinism did a number on many people, but there is no excuse anymore, for you can get a Bible and start believing and obeying and know for yourself what the truth is.

God's Truth
June 15th, 2017, 10:15 PM
1Sam2:22-25Now Eli was very old; and he heard everything his sons did to all Israel, and how they lay with the women who assembled at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. So he said to them, “Why do you do such things? For I hear of your evil dealings from all the people. No, my sons! For it is not a good report that I hear. You make the Lord’s people transgress. If one man sins against another, God will judge him. But if a man sins against the Lord, who will intercede for him?” Nevertheless they did not heed the voice of their father, because the Lord desired to kill them.

So why didn't Eli's sons heed their father and repent? It's true that they were rebellious and hard hearted but that's not the reason that the Bible gives...

They sinned against God. Even their father Eli tells them, “…who will intercede…?”

Read a little further:

Prophecy Against the House of Eli
27 Now a man of God came to Eli and said to him, “This is what the LORD says: ‘Did I not clearly reveal myself to your ancestor’s family when they were in Egypt under Pharaoh?

28 I chose your ancestor out of all the tribes of Israel to be my priest, to go up to my altar, to burn incense,and to wear an ephod in my presence. I also gave your ancestor’s family all the food offerings presented by the Israelites. 29 Why do you scorn my sacrifice and offering that I prescribed for my dwelling? Why do you honor your sons more than me by fattening yourselves on the choice parts of every offering made by my people Israel?’

30 “Therefore the LORD, the God of Israel, declares: ‘I promised that members of your family would minister before me forever.’ But now the LORD declares: ‘Far be it from me! Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained.

Did you read that Charles? There is NOTHING about Calvinism there.

31 The time is coming when I will cut short your strength and the strength of your priestly house, so that no one in it will reach old age, 32 and you will see distress in my dwelling. Although good will be done to Israel, no one in your family line will ever reach old age. 33 Every one of you that I do not cut off from serving at my altar I will spare only to destroy your sight and sap your strength, and all your descendants will die in the prime of life.

34 “‘And what happens to your two sons, Hophni and Phinehas, will be a sign to you—they will both die on the same day. 35 I will raise up for myself a faithful priest, who will do according to what is in my heart and mind. I will firmly establish his priestly house, and they will minister before my anointed one always. 36 Then everyone left in your family line will come and bow down before him for a piece of silver and a loaf of bread and plead, “Appoint me to some priestly office so I can have food to eat.”’”

Consider more carefully what is written.
God hardened Pharaoh and even Eli's two sons, but it was because they were such great sinners and in these circumstances, the punishment was a great teaching tool. It is a great teaching tool that you miss, as all Calvinists do.

Brother Vinny
June 15th, 2017, 10:16 PM
Calvinism did a number on many people, but there is no excuse anymore, for you can get a Bible and start believing and obeying and know for yourself what the truth is.

It is to laugh. We're celebrating 500 years of Reformation made possible by the availability of the Bible in print, and you're acting like Calvinism arose in a dearth of Scripture availability.

Ha, I say. Ha.

God's Truth
June 15th, 2017, 10:20 PM
It is to laugh. We're celebrating 500 years of Reformation made possible by the availability of the Bible in print, and you're acting like Calvinism arose in a dearth of Scripture availability.

Ha, I say. Ha.

What you are not getting is that the people fooled by Calvinism allowed others to teach them false things about the scriptures. I am telling them to read the scriptures for themselves.

Brother Vinny
June 15th, 2017, 10:35 PM
What you are not getting is that the people fooled by Calvinism allowed others to teach them false things about the scriptures. I am telling them to read the scriptures for themselves.

I dunno. Calvin read the Bible for himself, came up with Calvinism. :idunno:

You may have to just deal with the fact that some people see Calvinism in the Bible.

God's Truth
June 15th, 2017, 10:46 PM
I dunno. Calvin read the Bible for himself, came up with Calvinism. :idunno:

You may have to just deal with the fact that some people see Calvinism in the Bible.

They were taught it.

Brother Vinny
June 15th, 2017, 10:54 PM
They were taught it.

It was predestined so.

God's Truth
June 15th, 2017, 11:30 PM
It was predestined so.

Prove it to me by replying to the posts I made to Charles.

Brother Vinny
June 15th, 2017, 11:58 PM
Prove it to me by replying to the posts I made to Charles.

Prove it? It happened, therefore it was predestined to. :chuckle:

Robert Pate
June 16th, 2017, 09:15 AM
I dunno. Calvin read the Bible for himself, came up with Calvinism. :idunno:

You may have to just deal with the fact that some people see Calvinism in the Bible.

John Calvin was about 25 years old when he came up with his doctrine of predestination, and fresh out of the Catholic church. Not exactly a scholar. He was really jealous of Luther and his teaching that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law. He wanted to be famous like Luther.

Truster
June 16th, 2017, 09:19 AM
John Calvin was about 25 years old when he came up with his doctrine of predestination, and fresh out of the Catholic church. Not exactly a scholar. He was really jealous of Luther and his teaching that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law. He wanted to be famous like Luther.

Predetermination (predestination) is not something the regenerate "come up with". Predetermination in salvation is the answer to a question the saved sinner always asks, "why me?"

Robert Pate
June 16th, 2017, 09:27 AM
Predetermination (predestination) is not something the regenerate "come up with". Predetermination in salvation is the answer to a question the saved sinner always asks, "why me?"

Jesus said that he came into the world to save sinners. Therefore everyone that is a sinner qualifies to be saved. He didn't say that he came into the world to save "Some Certain Persons" or the elect.

Truster
June 16th, 2017, 09:41 AM
Jesus said that he came into the world to save sinners. Therefore everyone that is a sinner qualifies to be saved. He didn't say that he came into the world to save "Some Certain Persons" or the elect.


And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name YAH SHUA: for he shall save his people from their sins.

God's Truth
June 16th, 2017, 10:22 AM
Prove it? It happened, therefore it was predestined to. :chuckle:

You can't defend your belief, I know, and I know it is because you do not have the truth to use as a defense, you have insults.

God's Truth
June 16th, 2017, 10:24 AM
John Calvin was about 25 years old when he came up with his doctrine of predestination, and fresh out of the Catholic church. Not exactly a scholar. He was really jealous of Luther and his teaching that we are justified by faith apart from the works of the law. He wanted to be famous like Luther.

Luther had many of the same false teachings as Calvin.

beloved57
June 16th, 2017, 10:26 AM
Jesus said that he came into the world to save sinners. Therefore everyone that is a sinner qualifies to be saved. He didn't say that he came into the world to save "Some Certain Persons" or the elect.

You teach that Christ came to save sinners which still are lost, depriving His Blood of saving efficacy !

He said He came to save sinners, not possibly save sinners !

JudgeRightly
June 16th, 2017, 11:04 AM
You teach that Christ came to save sinners which still are lost, depriving His Blood of saving efficacy !

He said He came to save sinners, not possibly save sinners!

He died for sinners. Some sinners reject Him, therefore they are not saved. Other sinners accept Him, and are no longer called sinners, but are called saved.

You keep saying, "you deprive God of efficiency when you say that not all will be saved that Christ died for," but in doing so, you make the claim that God is unable to save everyone, only those He wants, but with God all stand equal in eternal value, and God the Son died for all mankind, that all should be saved...

Should be, but not all will be saved, only those who repent and believe. God wills that all will be saved, but he cannot force them to turn to Him, they have to make that choice on their own.

Nang
June 16th, 2017, 11:45 AM
He died for sinners. Some sinners reject Him, therefore they are not saved. Other sinners accept Him, and are no longer called sinners, but are called saved.

You keep saying, "you deprive God of efficiency when you say that not all will be saved that Christ died for," but in doing so, you make the claim that God is unable to save everyone, only those He wants, but with God all stand equal in eternal value, and God the Son died for all mankind, that all should be saved...

Should be, but not all will be saved, only those who repent and believe. God wills that all will be saved, but he cannot force them to turn to Him, they have to make that choice on their own.

Jesus suffered death for those the Father gave Him to redeem. He freed them from the penalty of death and grants them repentance. Acts 3:26, 5:31, 11:19; II Timothy 2:25

Salvation in all its parts, is worked by God alone.

Epoisses
June 16th, 2017, 11:56 AM
Jesus suffered death for those the Father gave Him to redeem. He freed them from the penalty of death and grants them repentance. Acts 3:26, 5:31, 11:19; II Timothy 2:25

Salvation in all its parts, is worked by God alone.

He also died for those that the Father did not give him and his blood is the propitiation for all sin. There was no election on the cross where Jesus went thru the books to determine who was a sheep or a goat. He made one sacrifice for all sin for all time and then sat down on the right hand of God..

Nang
June 16th, 2017, 12:06 PM
He also died for those that the Father did not give him and his blood is the propitiation for all sin. There was no election on the cross where Jesus went thru the books to determine who was a sheep or a goat. He made one sacrifice for all sin for all time and then sat down on the right hand of God..

I disagree with you. If you spoke Truth, there would be no warnings of Judgment and hell. We would all be Christians and have heaven on earth right now.

Only the Redeemed for whom Jesus died, have access to the heavenly throne of God. I John Chapters One and Two.

Epoisses
June 16th, 2017, 12:08 PM
I disagree with you. If you spoke Truth, there would be no warnings of Judgment and hell. We would all be Christians and have heaven on earth right now.

Only the Redeemed for whom Jesus died, have access to the heavenly throne of God. I John Chapters One and Two.

You make the cross automatic and it's never been automatic. There's this little thing called conversion that has to happen before I receive the merits of Christ.

Nang
June 16th, 2017, 12:11 PM
You make the cross automatic and it's never been automatic. There's this little thing called conversion that has to happen before I receive the merits of Christ.

The cross work of Jesus Christ is Sovereign . . not "automatic."

You describe a works-righteousness that is contingent upon the sinners approval and actions.

Wrong!

Ephesians 2:8-10

Truster
June 16th, 2017, 12:14 PM
He also died for those that the Father did not give him and his blood is the propitiation for all sin. There was no election on the cross where Jesus went thru the books to determine who was a sheep or a goat. He made one sacrifice for all sin for all time and then sat down on the right hand of God..

The waffling of the unregenerate.

By your own admittance you have been reading the Bible and attending church for many years. You are proof that it is by the election of grace that men are saved, because hard as you try, you know not the truth that sets men free.

Epoisses
June 16th, 2017, 12:15 PM
The cross work of Jesus Christ is Sovereign . . not "automatic."

You describe a works-righteousness that is contingent upon the sinners approval and actions.

Wrong!

Ephesians 2:8-10

I said the merits of Christ not the merits of men! This analogy will probably get me banned but conversion is the spiritual counterpart of the fleshly union of the man with a woman where a new life is created. You can't create life without both parties in participation and the role of the woman is to submit to the man.

Epoisses
June 16th, 2017, 12:15 PM
The waffling of the unregenerate.

By your own admittance you have been reading the Bible and attending church for many years. You are proof that it is by the election of grace that men are saved, because hard as you try, you know not the truth that sets men free.

This is not coherent, are you on drugs again?

Nang
June 16th, 2017, 12:17 PM
I said the merits of Christ not the merits of men! This analogy will probably get me banned but conversion is spiritual counterpart of the fleshly union of the man with a woman where a new life is created. You can't create life without both parties in participation and the role of the woman is to submit to the man.

You confuse earthly procreation with spiritual regeneration.

It is not a fitting analogy.

Nang
June 16th, 2017, 12:21 PM
This is not coherent, are you on drugs again?

Odd . .

I understand and agree with every word of Truster's post.

Epoisses
June 16th, 2017, 12:21 PM
You confuse earthly procreation with spiritual regeneration.

It is not a fitting analogy.

I thought we were all grown ups - my mistake.

Truster
June 16th, 2017, 12:28 PM
This is not coherent, are you on drugs again?

"Eyes that see but do not perceive"...You continually fulfill scripture, but not in the manner you think you do.

Robert Pate
June 16th, 2017, 04:03 PM
Odd . .

I understand and agree with every word of Truster's post.

That's because he is a Calvinist like you.

beloved57
June 17th, 2017, 01:20 PM
That's because he is a Calvinist like you.
Pate you teach that Christ saving death was a failure, for you teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost!

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JudgeRightly
June 17th, 2017, 01:57 PM
Pate you teach that Christ saving death was a failure, for you teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost!

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Strawman

Robert Pate
June 17th, 2017, 02:41 PM
Strawman

They cannot refute anything. All that they can do is make false accusations.

beloved57
June 18th, 2017, 04:23 PM
They cannot refute anything. All that they can do is make false accusations.
You do teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost. That's unbelief!

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Charles94
June 18th, 2017, 05:47 PM
Charles94 conveniently ignores 1John 2:2 which is the clearest verse of all that blows your limited atonement out of the water.

Well, except that I didn't and it doesn't:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?125235-Calvinism-and-the-word-quot-WORLD-quot/page3

post #42

Seemed more appropriate to a thread where you and RPate try to teach that Matt16:26 is about how some people are hoping to gain "every single person" in exchange for their soul, 1Tim6:7 teaches that we brought nothing into this "every single person", John12:19 teaches that the Pharisees are complaining about how "every single person" (including themselves and the people in China at the time) were following after Jesus and that John17:9,20 teach that Jesus was refusing to pray for "every single person", including presumably those believers He just said He was praying for.

Just seems more logical to examine the context to tell you what KOSMOS means in a specific instance (and by all means, allow John's writings to clarify John's other writings since he uses a similar language in John11:51-52).

Try to keep up...

Robert Pate
June 18th, 2017, 08:12 PM
Well, except that I didn't and it doesn't:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?125235-Calvinism-and-the-word-quot-WORLD-quot/page3

post #42

Seemed more appropriate to a thread where you and RPate try to teach that Matt16:26 is about how some people are hoping to gain "every single person" in exchange for their soul, 1Tim6:7 teaches that we brought nothing into this "every single person", John12:19 teaches that the Pharisees are complaining about how "every single person" (including themselves and the people in China at the time) were following after Jesus and that John17:9,20 teach that Jesus was refusing to pray for "every single person", including presumably those believers He just said He was praying for.

Just seems more logical to examine the context to tell you what KOSMOS means in a specific instance (and by all means, allow John's writings to clarify John's other writings since he uses a similar language in John11:51-52).

Try to keep up...


The God that you believe in is unjust and is not the God of the Bible. And then to make things worse you do not believe that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2 also 1 John 4:14. In the judgment you might be better of to be an atheist.

Epoisses
June 18th, 2017, 08:48 PM
Well, except that I didn't and it doesn't:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?125235-Calvinism-and-the-word-quot-WORLD-quot/page3

post #42

Seemed more appropriate to a thread where you and RPate try to teach that Matt16:26 is about how some people are hoping to gain "every single person" in exchange for their soul, 1Tim6:7 teaches that we brought nothing into this "every single person", John12:19 teaches that the Pharisees are complaining about how "every single person" (including themselves and the people in China at the time) were following after Jesus and that John17:9,20 teach that Jesus was refusing to pray for "every single person", including presumably those believers He just said He was praying for.

Just seems more logical to examine the context to tell you what KOSMOS means in a specific instance (and by all means, allow John's writings to clarify John's other writings since he uses a similar language in John11:51-52).

Try to keep up...

Jesus saved the whole world and the elect believe it. The dichotomy that slices thru the errors of your kind.

Charles94
June 18th, 2017, 09:29 PM
God hardening Pharaoh is proof that people can believe and obey, or else God would not have needed to harden Pharaoh...Pharaoh was going to believe and obey, but God hardened him so that he could not.

Well, Jesus said, "Good trees produce good fruit." That sounds like you think Pharaoh was a good and humble man, who was eager to obey, but God made him do evil instead?

That would be a lot farther than Calvinists would go. God is free to constrain evil or redirect it in one way or another, but never forces men to choose evil; instead, they choose evil because it's their nature. Pharaoh hated God and his choices were always going to reflect that, whether God hardened him to continue his open rebellion, or let him cave and let the people go while he seethed and muttered under his breath.

OTOH, Calvinists do teach that God is free to compel men to do good (The noncalvinist book of Jonah must be very short for one example - God said, "Go to Nineveh." Jonah said, "I'd prefer not to." God said, "I respect your free will choice." THE END.), or to change their nature such that they start thinking like "good trees" (which can include means such as forcing Jonah to see his own self-centeredness as a means to changing his heart.)

Of course, I do understand that when Jesus said, "Good trees produce good fruit and bad trees produce bad fruit," you actually simply deny Him and prefer to teach, "Trees are free to produce any random sort of fruit that they wish, for no reason." That makes no sense at all but I get that you believe it. Except that you do seem to be saying that after God's hardening, that Pharaoh was definitely NOT free to obey. So are we clear that God was free to find fault (Rom9:19) even when Pharaoh was definitely NOT free to obey? Your logic here is not clearly stated.


God hardened Pharaoh and even Eli's two sons, but it was because they were such great sinners and in these circumstances, the punishment was a great teaching tool.

If you interpret 2Pet3:9 as wrongly as Robert, then you would have issues teaching that God wanted Pharaoh or Eli's sons to repent. God cannot want them to repent at the same time that He is hardening them to their destruction.

It's duly noted, though, that you consider yourself to be an exemplar of obedience, and at no risk of being hardened like those "great sinners." But it sounds like your theology doesn't have anything to offer someone who might think of themselves as a great sinner. But while God was free to harden Pharaoh, He was also free to actively (and even forcibly) bring Paul to where he could understand the gospel and repent.


Your not understanding does not make what I said untrue. You just don't have a grasp on what your doctrines imply.

You have yet to demonstrate that you can make or follow simple logical proofs, for example:


Ezekiel 18:31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?

Post #3 already addressed this, in advance. God tells the people in Ezek18:31 that they need to get rid of their offenses and they need a new heart. You trust Aristotle (though admittedly you are ignorant of the logical foundation of your argument), so you conclude that God can only command people to do what they are capable of (or he would be unjust by your and Aristotle's reckoning), so they must have the ability to give themselves a new heart.


God did not give them a new heart because they did not repent.

They did (and they are). Ezek 36-37 are prophecies. (And Ezek 37 was not about physical death as it paralleled Ezek36 – God had to take the initiative to put His Spirit in them before they could come to Him in faith as He required to be restored to the land.)

God was saying He would have to act to give them a new heart and Spirit because they could not do it themselves (and it was necessary for them to be His people). So the prophecy was partly fulfilled years later when God gathered His people back into the OT promised land during the days of Ezra and Nehemiah. Before they could re-enter the land, He had to put His Spirit in them and CAUSE them to walk rightly, and THEN they would repent.

Some aspects of "free will" are interesting to try to apply to the Bible- few in ancient times could choose their own career or wife, etc. The king seemed the most free relative to other people, but the Bible teaches that God was not limited by a king's will.

Ezra1:1Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the Lord stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia...(to begin restoring God's people to their land.)
Prov21:1 The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.

The prophecies were not just for literal, physical Israel back in the OT times, either – at least according to Paul:

2Cor6:16 For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” (Ezek37:27)


That is pretty presumptuous of you to say that.

Umm, no. I don't give a crap about your opinions. If you can show logically how the scriptures fit together, that would be something different, but I have posted numerous scriptures that show how men lack ability and that they make choices that reflect who they are. You keep posting "God commands X, therefore, people must have the ability to do X" but that was addressed in post#3.

God's Truth
June 18th, 2017, 11:42 PM
Well, Jesus said, "Good trees produce good fruit." That sounds like you think Pharaoh was a good and humble man, who was eager to obey, but God made him do evil instead?
Just believe what the scripture says. The scripture says God stopped Pharaoh from obeying.




That would be a lot farther than Calvinists would go. God is free to constrain evil or redirect it in one way or another, but never forces men to choose evil; instead, they choose evil because it's their nature. Pharaoh hated God and his choices were always going to reflect that, whether God hardened him to continue his open rebellion, or let him cave and let the people go while he seethed and muttered under his breath.
What you said does not make sense and it is just an attempt for you to avoid what is plainly written.



OTOH, Calvinists do teach that God is free to compel men to do good (The noncalvinist book of Jonah must be very short for one example - God said, "Go to Nineveh." Jonah said, "I'd prefer not to." God said, "I respect your free will choice." THE END.), or to change their nature such that they start thinking like "good trees" (which can include means such as forcing Jonah to see his own self-centeredness as a means to changing his heart.)
God put Jonah inside a whale and made him obey that way.
That is not Calvinism.
Your teachings go against God’s Truth.

Charles94
June 19th, 2017, 08:15 PM
Everyone is born with the ability to believe and have faith in God and his Son Jesus Christ.

Verse? Not even a nonsensical, pulled-out-of-context verse as you typically do? Nothing?

That's because the Bible says the opposite, that no one without the Spirit can really understand the gospel - they have no interest. (1Cor2:12-14; John8:42-43; John14:17; Rom8:5-9)

But once again, you don't believe the Bible.


They don't come because they love their sins more than they love Christ.

Sure. That's basically what Calvinists teach. They choose for a reason: they are at enmity with God.

But while you teach that God made the same effort to save every single person, you presume that you would come to Christ because you are – of yourself alone – smarter, wiser, more humble and more spiritual than your unbelieving neighbor, Calvinists stick with the Bible, where God repeatedly demands credit for bringing His chosen ones to Himself. (Acts5:31; Acts11:18; Acts13:48; Acts16:14; John3:21)

1Cor3:5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

You are wicked and won't give God credit – you said if Calvinism were true, you would refuse to be involved in missions. OTOH, Paul was just happy to be a fellow-worker with Apollos, eager to please God with no illusions that God “needed him.” (Gal1:12) Paul eagerly gave God got ALL the credit for the increase in His Church. But you don't believe the Bible.

1Cor1:26-30 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. 27 But God HAS CHOSEN the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God HAS CHOSEN the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God HAS CHOSEN, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence. 30 But OF HIM you are in Christ Jesus...

God's choice is foundational – it is because of Him that we are in Christ Jesus.

Yet you try to steal God's glory – again, because you don't believe the Bible.


If God did not give everyone the ability to believe and have faith in Christ he would be unjust. You believe the same garbage that Calvinist believe, God is an unjust villain.

That is just what your lord and master Aristotle would say! That is exactly why I wrote post#3, to show you the foundations of why you despise the God of the Bible and His Son, Jesus. You like a handful of verses here and there, ripped out of their context to scratch your itchy little ears, but you chop out an awful lot.

Paul knew about Aristotle's teaching and that's where the argument from Rom9:18-20 comes from. You and “Pharaoh” are in complete agreement that based on Aristotle's teaching, if God intended Pharaoh's disobedience, then God was guilty of entrapment and Pharaoh was not guilty because he was not really free to do otherwise. Yet God mocks you in Romans 9 and says, “Who are you to reply against Me?”

You can curse the God of the Bible and call Him unjust, but when you try to hold Him accountable, He will laugh at you and...well, we're back to Psalm 2 and the end for you won't be pretty unless you repent.

And I did finally see this where you openly denied the God of the Bible (Isa46:10 ; Psa139:16; Dan4:35; Psa33:10-11; Psa135:6; Dan5:23) in this older thread:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116186-Calvinism-You-Must-Already-be-Saved-to-Get-Saved/page11&p=4622726#post4622726


You are assuming that God knows everything that is happening on the earth.
Truth of the matter is that God is very absent from what is happening on the earth.

Psa73:11-12And they say, “How does God know?And is there knowledge in the Most High?” Behold, these are the ungodly...

You keep choosing to side with some evil men in the scriptures. The scriptures are there to teach you if you let them. (And yes, you can only repent if God ordains it – but yes, you remain responsible in any event.)

Charles94
June 19th, 2017, 08:25 PM
The God that you believe in is unjust and is not the God of the Bible. And then to make things worse you do not believe that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2 also 1 John 4:14.

John teaching that Jesus is the Savior of the Gentiles as well as the Jews? Yes, like I have said multiple times, that was a big contentious issue in the first century and it was addressed by several writers of the NT - John primarily to the Jews and Paul primarily to the Gentiles.

You suppose John was teaching that Jesus is the Savior of the unsaved? Like I have said multiple times, that is still complete nonsense. That you deny so many clear teachings of scripture to serve this sort of meaningless nonsense is kinda sad and pathetic, but it does go to show how hard a human heart can be.

But the notion that Jesus is the savior of Judas and the unbelievers in the same sense that He is your and Epoisses' savior is starting to develop a certain logic to it...

Charles94
June 19th, 2017, 08:27 PM
Just believe what the scripture says. The scripture says God stopped Pharaoh from obeying.

Quit being a wimp with all the tap dancing and own it: if "God stopped Pharaoh from obeying", then was Pharaoh still responsible to obey?

Epoisses
June 19th, 2017, 08:32 PM
John teaching that Jesus is the Savior of the Gentiles as well as the Jews? Yes, like I have said multiple times, that was a big contentious issue in the first century and it was addressed by several writers of the NT - John primarily to the Jews and Paul primarily to the Gentiles.

You suppose John was teaching that Jesus is the Savior of the unsaved? Like I have said multiple times, that is still complete nonsense. That you deny so many clear teachings of scripture to serve this sort of meaningless nonsense is kinda sad and pathetic, but it does go to show how hard a human heart can be.

But the notion that Jesus is the savior of Judas and the unbelievers in the same sense that He is your and Epoisses' savior is starting to develop a certain logic to it...

Jesus is the savior of those who are ultimately lost and sent to hell. Their sins were atoned for by the blood of Christ, how can you at heart deny this? You make the work of Christ on the cross automatic but Jesus and the apostles never even hinted at this. Jesus said unless one is born of God he cannot even see the kingdom of God. Faith and belief were commanded over and over and over yet you reject any type of practical religion. In the parable of the sower the last 3 groups were all believers but only the last group reached maturity. Your Calvinist beliefs are no where to be found in scripture.

Epoisses
June 19th, 2017, 08:38 PM
Quit being a wimp with all the tap dancing and own it: if "God stopped Pharaoh from obeying", then was Pharaoh still responsible to obey?

I can find at least 3 verses that say Pharaoh hardened his own heart. I bet you never quote those!

But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Ex. 8:15

And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. Ex. 8:32

Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? 1Sam. 6:6

God's Truth
June 19th, 2017, 09:16 PM
Quit being a wimp with all the tap dancing and own it: if "God stopped Pharaoh from obeying", then was Pharaoh still responsible to obey?

If God stops someone from obeying then they will suffer the consequences.

God's Truth
June 19th, 2017, 09:22 PM
I can find at least 3 verses that say Pharaoh hardened his own heart. I bet you never quote those!

But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. Ex. 8:15

And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. Ex. 8:32

Wherefore then do ye harden your hearts, as the Egyptians and Pharaoh hardened their hearts? 1Sam. 6:6

Three times God declares that he will harden Pharaoh's heart (Ex. 4:21; 7:3; 14:4). Six times God actually hardens Pharaoh's heart (Ex. 9:12; 10:1; 10:20; 10:27; 11:10; 14:8).

God's Truth
June 19th, 2017, 09:32 PM
God hardening Pharaoh's heart proves that man has free will and can learn about God and obey Him without first being saved as the Calvinists teach.

JudgeRightly
June 19th, 2017, 11:36 PM
You do teach that sinners Christ died for are still lost. That's unbelief!

Sent from my 5054N using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')
You're arguing against only part of what we teach. The part you're missing is that the reason they are still lost is that they reject Christ. Jesus died for all, but all will not be saved, why? Because God cannot save those who do not want to be saved.

Can you force someone to pull the cord on their parachute after they've jumped out of the plane? No, they have to want to pull the cord themselves. You gave them the parachute, and in doing so, gave them the ability to pull the cord.

Without the parachute, they will perish (sorry, no pun today). But with it, they'll live.

The parachute in the above example is representative of Christ's gift of salvation, His death on the cross, shedding His blood to cleanse us of our sins. The cord represents the decision to believe in Christ, accepting Christ as one's Savior is like pulling that cord.

Epoisses
June 20th, 2017, 06:20 AM
God hardening Pharaoh's heart proves that man has free will and can learn about God and obey Him without first being saved as the Calvinists teach.

No, it shows the heart of man is desperately wicked and who can know it.

Robert Pate
June 20th, 2017, 07:32 AM
You're arguing against only part of what we teach. The part you're missing is that the reason they are still lost is that they reject Christ. Jesus died for all, but all will not be saved, why? Because God cannot save those who do not want to be saved.

Can you force someone to pull the cord on their parachute after they've jumped out of the plane? No, they have to want to pull the cord themselves. You gave them the parachute, and in doing so, gave them the ability to pull the cord.

Without the parachute, they will perish (sorry, no pun today). But with it, they'll live.

The parachute in the above example is representative of Christ's gift of salvation, His death on the cross, shedding His blood to cleanse us of our sins. The cord represents the decision to believe in Christ, accepting Christ as one's Savior is like pulling that cord.


Good example. The Calvinist want God to pull the cord for them. He is not going to do that because salvation is a free gift that can only be received.

God's Truth
June 20th, 2017, 07:38 AM
No, it shows the heart of man is desperately wicked and who can know it.

The scripture you are trying to teach is not about ALL hearts; it is about how the heart, of all things on earth, it has the most possibility for wickedness.

You have been taught wrong about the scriptures.

God's Truth
June 20th, 2017, 07:46 AM
Good example. The Calvinist want God to pull the cord for them. He is not going to do that because salvation is a free gift that can only be received.

...a free gift given to those Jesus chooses to give it, and he chooses those who believe and obey.

Robert Pate
June 20th, 2017, 07:49 AM
The scripture you are trying to teach is not about ALL hearts; it is about how the heart, of all things on earth, it has the most possibility for wickedness.

You have been taught wrong about the scriptures.

You don't believe much of the Bible do you? You don't believe Paul, you don't believe Isaiah, You don't believe John and now you don't believe that the heart of man is wicked.

Robert Pate
June 20th, 2017, 07:52 AM
...a free gift given to those Jesus chooses to give it, and he chooses those who believe and obey.

Salvation is not imposed on anyone. It is offered to all as a free gift from God.

Truster
July 7th, 2017, 10:32 PM
They who diligently attend to the scriptures, will
find throughout the whole a vein of election and
reprobation. The holy seed may be traced in many
instances, and in divers families, in the Bible, from
Adam to the birth of our Saviour, whose ancestors,
according to the flesh, were of the line of election or
the godly; which those who are only born after the
flesh, and not after the Spirit, namely, the reprobate,
have always despised and persecuted, and will do so
to the end of time—Mason and Ryland.

God's Truth
July 7th, 2017, 11:10 PM
Salvation is not imposed on anyone. It is offered to all as a free gift from God.

Jesus gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to those who obey. See John 14:23, and Acts 5:32.

God's Truth
July 7th, 2017, 11:11 PM
You don't believe much of the Bible do you? You don't believe Paul, you don't believe Isaiah, You don't believe John and now you don't believe that the heart of man is wicked.

Not every man's heart is wicked. What is God doing searching hearts if all are only wicked anyway?

Robert Pate
July 8th, 2017, 01:36 PM
Jesus gives the gift of the Holy Spirit to those who obey. See John 14:23, and Acts 5:32.

If you obeyed him you would believe his Gospel.

Robert Pate
July 8th, 2017, 01:40 PM
Not every man's heart is wicked. What is God doing searching hearts if all are only wicked anyway?

The spiritual law searches the desires and the intent of the heart and convicts people of sin, Romans 3:19.

amber59
July 8th, 2017, 09:56 PM
I need to know why the hatred of Reformed theology. Oh I know your Arminian. Joseph did like it so he penned his own theology.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

God's Truth
July 8th, 2017, 10:14 PM
The spiritual law searches the desires and the intent of the heart and convicts people of sin, Romans 3:19.

You sound like a Calvinist when you insist on only wicked.

You are more Calvinist than not, IMHO.

God's Truth
July 8th, 2017, 10:15 PM
If you obeyed him you would believe his Gospel.

I believe in everything he says and not just 'believe'; You don't even know WHAT you are supposed to believe LOL

amber59
July 8th, 2017, 10:17 PM
Oh and here is link to Reform

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/heidelberg-catechism-1563/

See God love me so much. (Why I don't know) That he adopted me to be his child. And for that I will be forever great.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

God's Truth
July 8th, 2017, 10:18 PM
Oh and here is link to Reform

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/heidelberg-catechism-1563/

See God love me so much. (Why I don't know) That he adopted me to be his child. And for that I will be forever great.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Oh wow, not good, you don't know.

That is not from God.

Eagles Wings
July 8th, 2017, 10:19 PM
You sound like a Calvinist when you insist on only wicked.

You are more Calvinist than not, IMHO.

If Pate has one mitochondria of Calvinism in his belief system, I'll be a monkey's...yada yada

God's Truth
July 8th, 2017, 10:20 PM
If Pate has one mitochondria of Calvinism in his belief system, I'll be a monkey's...yada yada

He is at least, your half brother, at least.

Eagles Wings
July 8th, 2017, 10:23 PM
Oh and here is link to Reform

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/heidelberg-catechism-1563/

See God love me so much. (Why I don't know) That he adopted me to be his child. And for that I will be forever great.

Sent from my SM-G920V using TapatalkWelcome to TOL.

Eagles Wings
July 8th, 2017, 10:23 PM
He is at least, your half brother, at least.Nah

God's Truth
July 8th, 2017, 11:19 PM
Nah

Jesus says believe and obey.

Calvinists say I cannot believe and I cannot obey, save me first.

Robert Pate says I can believe but I cannot obey.

Eagles Wings
July 8th, 2017, 11:28 PM
Jesus says believe and obey.

Calvinists say I cannot believe and I cannot obey, save me first.

Robert Pate says I can believe but I cannot obey.This has been discussed ad nauseum, would'nt you agree?

I'm not interested in rehashing it with you.

God's Truth
July 9th, 2017, 02:49 AM
This has been discussed ad nauseum, would'nt you agree?

I'm not interested in rehashing it with you.

Just move on then; no need to broadcast it. Everything on this site has been discussed repeatedly. What are you doing on such a site if it makes you sick?

Robert Pate
July 9th, 2017, 08:03 AM
Jesus says believe and obey.

Calvinists say I cannot believe and I cannot obey, save me first.

Robert Pate says I can believe but I cannot obey.

Don't listen to me. Listen to God's prophet.

"But we are all as an unclean thing and all of our righteousness are as filthy rags and we do fade as a leaf and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" Isaiah 64:6.

Eagles Wings
July 9th, 2017, 08:58 AM
Just move on then; no need to broadcast it. Everything on this site has been discussed repeatedly. What are you doing on such a site if it makes you sick?

I enjoy much of the interaction.

The stuff that bothers me, I ignore.

You do ask a good question though.

I take frequent breaks so rudeness does not get an upper hand.

Take care.

God's Truth
July 9th, 2017, 08:58 AM
Don't listen to me. Listen to God's prophet.

"But we are all as an unclean thing and all of our righteousness are as filthy rags and we do fade as a leaf and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away" Isaiah 64:6.

The filthy rags, they are filthy because they gave a righteous sin offering---BUT WERE NOT really sorry for their sin.

Robert Pate
July 9th, 2017, 11:12 AM
The filthy rags, they are filthy because they gave a righteous sin offering---BUT WERE NOT really sorry for their sin.

Isaiah said "WE" he didn't say "THEM" or "THOSE". Isaiah was talking about you. You need to learn the Gospel and justification by faith before you die or you will perish.

God's Truth
July 9th, 2017, 01:17 PM
Isaiah said "WE" he didn't say "THEM" or "THOSE". Isaiah was talking about you. You need to learn the Gospel and justification by faith before you die or you will perish.

Isaiah was speaking of those who did a RIGHTEOUS ACT by giving a SIN OFFERING but was NOT really sorry for their sins.

You entrapped soul. God did not like it when the Jews would give a sin offering but not really be sorry

That is why God did not like the ceremonial works and sacrifices, because anyone can do it no matter was really in their heart.

God's Truth
July 9th, 2017, 01:29 PM
Robert Pate, the obvious one in falseness with sound bites here and there.

Did you bother reading this part of Isaiah 64?

4 Since ancient times no one has heard,
no ear has perceived,
no eye has seen any God besides you,
who acts on behalf of those who wait for him.
5 You come to the help of those who gladly do right,
who remember your ways.
7 No one calls on your name
or strives to lay hold of you;

9 Do not be angry beyond measure, Lord;
do not remember our sins forever.
Oh, look on us, we pray,


YOU NEED TO READ THE NEST CHAPTER, ISAIAH 65! LOLLOLLOL

Robert Pate
July 9th, 2017, 02:47 PM
Robert Pate, the obvious one in falseness with sound bites here and there.

Did you bother reading this part of Isaiah 64?

4 Since ancient times no one has heard,
no ear has perceived,
no eye has seen any God besides you,
who acts on behalf of those who wait for him.
5 You come to the help of those who gladly do right,
who remember your ways.
7 No one calls on your name
or strives to lay hold of you;

9 Do not be angry beyond measure, Lord;
do not remember our sins forever.
Oh, look on us, we pray,


YOU NEED TO READ THE NEST CHAPTER, ISAIAH 65! LOLLOLLOL

I have read all of the book of Isaiah.

Here is another scripture for your self righteous doctrine. Isaiah 65:5.

God's Truth
July 9th, 2017, 03:51 PM
I have read all of the book of Isaiah.

Here is another scripture for your self righteous doctrine. Isaiah 65:5.

You can't face the scriptures can you. You just try harder to insult.

Robert Pate
July 9th, 2017, 04:12 PM
You can't face the scriptures can you. You just try harder to insult.

My intention is not to insult you. My intention is to bring you into a saving knowledge of the Gospel.

God's Truth
July 9th, 2017, 10:34 PM
My intention is not to insult you. My intention is to bring you into a saving knowledge of the Gospel.

You don't even know Jesus washes us. You need to stop trying to be a teacher. All those souls you helped destroy by preaching faith alone is not going to go well for you.

Robert Pate
July 10th, 2017, 09:01 AM
You don't even know Jesus washes us. You need to stop trying to be a teacher. All those souls you helped destroy by preaching faith alone is not going to go well for you.

"There is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood" Its nice to say that Jesus washes you. The fact of the matter is that Jesus died for you. Not only did he die for you, he lived for you. Jesus is the justifier, Romans 3:26. We are made right with God by the doing and the dying of Jesus and not by our obedience to the law.

God's Truth
July 10th, 2017, 10:28 AM
"There is no remission of sins without the shedding of blood" Its nice to say that Jesus washes you. The fact of the matter is that Jesus died for you. Not only did he die for you, he lived for you. Jesus is the justifier, Romans 3:26. We are made right with God by the doing and the dying of Jesus and not by our obedience to the law.

Jesus washes us; he washes those he saves.

You have no understanding.

John 13:8 ... Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me."

JudgeRightly
July 10th, 2017, 11:05 AM
Jesus washes us; he washes those he saves.

You have no understanding.

John 13:8 ... Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me."
We are washed by His blood when we believe.

Robert Pate
July 10th, 2017, 01:00 PM
Jesus washes us; he washes those he saves.

You have no understanding.

John 13:8 ... Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me."

The law demands a perfect sacrifice for the sins of man. The blood of Jesus was not after Adam. It was after God. Jesus shed his blood for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. Not only did Jesus die for us, he also lived for us. Because of the doing and the dying of Jesus we can stand before God's holy court as justified. All that have come to Christ as repentant sinners are cleansed from their sins and are complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10. Jesus did much more for us than shedding his blood for us. He also offered to God the Father a life of perfect obedience according to his holy law. This is how Jesus justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5.