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jzeidler
April 7th, 2017, 11:01 AM
There are so many deceptions being taught in pulpits today. One of those deceptions is that grace is just to get you saved then you have to work at everything else. This deception spits in the face of Christ's work on the cross and the truth that is grace:

https://soundcloud.com/freedomsfortress/episode-6-deceptions-christians-believe-grace-for-salvation-work-for-the-rest-part-1

Epoisses
April 7th, 2017, 12:36 PM
There are so many deceptions being taught in pulpits today. One of those deceptions is that grace is just to get you saved then you have to work at everything else. This deception spits in the face of Christ's work on the cross and the truth that is grace:

https://soundcloud.com/freedomsfortress/episode-6-deceptions-christians-believe-grace-for-salvation-work-for-the-rest-part-1

Amen. Or the one where I have to give ten percent of my income to the church or God won't bless me. God blesses us before we give so any giving on our part is out of gratitude and never to receive a blessing. The best con-men are not out in the world they are in the church preaching a gospel that cannot save and fleecing the sheep for every dollar they can...just a disgrace to grace.

jzeidler
April 7th, 2017, 01:20 PM
Amen. Or the one where I have to give ten percent of my income to the church or God won't bless me. God blesses us before we give so any giving on our part is out of gratitude and never to receive a blessing. The best con-men are not out in the world they are in the church preaching a gospel that cannot save and fleecing the sheep for every dollar they can...just a disgrace to grace.

You should subscribe to that podcast because the topic of the tithe will be coming.

CherubRam
April 7th, 2017, 02:58 PM
There are so many deceptions being taught in pulpits today. One of those deceptions is that grace is just to get you saved then you have to work at everything else. This deception spits in the face of Christ's work on the cross and the truth that is grace:

https://soundcloud.com/freedomsfortress/episode-6-deceptions-christians-believe-grace-for-salvation-work-for-the-rest-part-1
Grace is the free and unmerited favor of God. However, Christians should not be lazy.

meshak
April 7th, 2017, 03:09 PM
Grace is the free and unmerited favor of God. However, Christians should not be lazy.

exactly. amen.

The most corrupt doctrine is to believe you don't have to work to be saved.

This is the most popular and practiced by most churches.

Ktoyou
April 7th, 2017, 03:25 PM
You should subscribe to that podcast because the topic of the tithe will be coming.

I don't think this is a good idea at all. You seem to be redirecting members to another forum.

jzeidler
April 7th, 2017, 06:06 PM
I don't think this is a good idea at all. You seem to be redirecting members to another forum.

It's not a forum. It's like ITunes.

jzeidler
April 7th, 2017, 06:08 PM
Grace is the free and unmerited favor of God. However, Christians should not be lazy.

Agreed, but they should be motivated based on their identity in Christ. Not a dead law.

patrick jane
April 7th, 2017, 06:09 PM
exactly. amen.

The most corrupt doctrine is to believe you don't have to work to be saved.

This is the most popular and practiced by most churches.Just the opposite. Most churches teach falsely, like you

meshak
April 7th, 2017, 06:42 PM
Just the opposite. Most churches teach falsely, like you

Obviously you have not attended or visited mainstream churches.

jsanford108
April 7th, 2017, 06:54 PM
I happen to agree with Meshak for once. Most mainstream churches teach all you need is love. Or that you don't have to do anything to receive salvation.


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patrick jane
April 7th, 2017, 08:03 PM
I happen to agree with Meshak for once. Most mainstream churches teach all you need is love. Or that you don't have to do anything to receive salvation.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)because you've been to most churches?

meshak
April 7th, 2017, 08:17 PM
because you've been to most churches?

I have; all churches in my neighborhood. There are many churches here.

Tnkrbl123!
April 7th, 2017, 08:18 PM
I happen to agree with Meshak for once. Most mainstream churches teach all you need is love. Or that you don't have to do anything to receive salvation.


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"most" or "many?" In my expirience, "most" churches I have attended near my home are very faithful to the Bible and teach about grace and the love of Christ but also focus a lot of sermons on the seriousness of sin and how to always be confessing and repenting. I know of "many" churches that are not lead by men and woman who are led by the Holy Spirit but the churches that ARE led by the Holy Spirit outweigh the ones that are not. But I live in western Canada so it may be different up here. I am thankful for the wonderful Spirit led churches in my part of Canada.

patrick jane
April 7th, 2017, 08:24 PM
I have; all churches in my neighborhood. There are many churches here.You just can't find a good church that teaches what you want hear

meshak
April 7th, 2017, 08:29 PM
You just can't find a good church that teaches what you want hear


I gave all of them benefit of doubt. I even deeply involving serving them.

they are very much alike, corrupt.

Most of them are just social clubs.

meshak
April 7th, 2017, 08:31 PM
"most" or "many?" In my expirience, "most" churches I have attended near my home are very faithful to the Bible and teach about grace and the love of Christ but also focus a lot of sermons on the seriousness of sin and how to always be confessing and repenting. I know of "many" churches that are not lead by men and woman who are led by the Holy Spirit but the churches that ARE led by the Holy Spirit outweigh the ones that are not. But I live in western Canada so it may be different up here. I am thankful for the wonderful Spirit led churches in my part of Canada.

suit yourself.

I have read your posts, and your faith seems to be superficial, like the churches I have served.

patrick jane
April 7th, 2017, 08:48 PM
suit yourself.

I have read your posts, and your faith seems to be superficial, like the churches I have served.Your faith is weak. You don't believe the Bible

Epoisses
April 7th, 2017, 08:52 PM
I happen to agree with Meshak for once. Most mainstream churches teach all you need is love. Or that you don't have to do anything to receive salvation.

I agree with Meshak for once, all you need is love for love is the fulfilling of the law.

meshak
April 7th, 2017, 08:53 PM
Your faith is weak. You don't believe the Bible

false witnessing is a grave sin.

your kind of comment is so typical; don't care about sinning with what you say.

jzeidler
April 7th, 2017, 09:12 PM
Just curious. How many of you took time to observe the OP before you started to argue?


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keypurr
April 7th, 2017, 09:54 PM
Your faith is weak. You don't believe the Bible

I disagree, her faith is strong. And she is right.

Jas_2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jas_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Faith brings works friend.

meshak
April 8th, 2017, 04:32 AM
Just curious. How many of you took time to observe the OP before you started to argue?


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Your title says it all, friend.

musterion
April 8th, 2017, 05:38 AM
because you've been to most churches?

At least one of the Meshaks admitted to being asked to leave churches for preaching her own brand of stupidity.

musterion
April 8th, 2017, 05:39 AM
Just curious. How many of you took time to observe the OP before you started to argue?


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I didn't bother with the audio. In the interest of discussion, can you bullet point some of the deceptions you have in mind?

jzeidler
April 8th, 2017, 06:29 AM
Your title says it all, friend.

No, no it doesn't. The link says most and that only says half. Why do people just jump into an argument without even listening to majority of the information. Isn't there a saying "be quick to hear and slow to speak"?

Truster
April 8th, 2017, 06:31 AM
I happen to agree with Meshak for once. Most mainstream churches teach all you need is love. Or that you don't have to do anything to receive salvation.


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If you did anything to receive salvation then you are not regenerate. In regeneration and conversion the sinner is passive and is completely unaware of what is about to happen. Once it has happened, it is then, that the repentant sinner rejoices, praises, trusts, worships in spirit and in truth.

The regenerate and repentant sinner will always understand his innate inability to please The Eternal Almighty and will never believe that his own efforts or decisions were what brought him into favor with Elohim.

jzeidler
April 8th, 2017, 06:31 AM
I didn't bother with the audio. In the interest of discussion, can you bullet point some of the deceptions you have in mind?

Seriously? Our best argument for jumping into a quarrel with people is laziness?

Besides, billet points gives no context or substance for a discussion. There has to be more than a couple words in order to have an intelligent discussion.

musterion
April 8th, 2017, 06:38 AM
Seriously? Our best argument for jumping into a quarrel with people is laziness?

Besides, billet points gives no context or substance for a discussion. There has to be more than a couple words in order to have an intelligent discussion.

Hey, you're the one complaining about people ignoring the opening post. At least I asked for details. Suit yourself.

jzeidler
April 8th, 2017, 07:36 AM
Hey, you're the one complaining about people ignoring the opening post. At least I asked for details. Suit yourself.

I just would like people to have a discussion about a topic with most of the context rather than people thinking they know everything about the topic then yell others down who have apposing viewpoints.

musterion
April 8th, 2017, 07:41 AM
I just would like people to have a discussion about a topic with most of the context rather than people thinking they know everything about the topic then yell others down who have apposing viewpoints.

I get that, but then your problem is with them, not me.

If you don't want to post the deception points in order to make a conversation where, so far, there is none, that's your business. But it's also kinda lazy of you.

Zeke
April 8th, 2017, 09:10 AM
I disagree, her faith is strong. And she is right.

Jas_2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jas_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Faith brings works friend.
Depends on where you are. concerning the covenants between the first and second adams transition from earthly to heavenly minded.

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patrick jane
April 8th, 2017, 01:58 PM
I disagree, her faith is strong. And she is right.

Jas_2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jas_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Faith brings works friend.C'mon keypurr, you know better than that. Lest any man should boast

keypurr
April 8th, 2017, 02:27 PM
C'mon keypurr, you know better than that. Lest any man should boast
Just truth, not boasting.

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meshak
April 8th, 2017, 02:29 PM
C'mon keypurr, you know better than that. Lest any man should boast

what are we boasting?

do you even know what you are talking about?

meshak
April 8th, 2017, 02:33 PM
No, no it doesn't. The link says most and that only says half. Why do people just jump into an argument without even listening to majority of the information. Isn't there a saying "be quick to hear and slow to speak"?

here is what you say:


This deception spits in the face of Christ's work on the cross and the truth that is grace:

this says it all, friend.

patrick jane
April 8th, 2017, 02:41 PM
here is what you say:



this says it all, friend.Listen friend, you are stupid and ignorant in all things Christian

patrick jane
April 8th, 2017, 02:43 PM
Just truth, not boasting.

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app (https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367)Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV

meshak
April 8th, 2017, 02:45 PM
Listen friend, you are stupid and ignorant in all things Christian

cheer up, Jesus loves you:)

patrick jane
April 8th, 2017, 02:49 PM
cheer up, Jesus loves you:)He doesn't love your false teachings

meshak
April 8th, 2017, 02:50 PM
He doesn't love your false teachings

whatever you say dear.

feel better now?

jzeidler
April 8th, 2017, 03:23 PM
here is what you say:



this says it all, friend.

You have no context that backs up that statement. All you're doing is taking a statement with no context and running with it while accusing others who have a different viewpoint. All it takes is a little bit of time to get more information so you can have a better educated discussion.

Here's the link:
https://soundcloud.com/freedomsfortress/episode-6-deceptions-christians-believe-grace-for-salvation-work-for-the-rest-part-1

Take the time.

jzeidler
April 8th, 2017, 03:29 PM
Can we stop throwing names at each other and act like adults please? Listen to the link and have a coherent discussion on why you agree or disagree. It's not that hard.


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meshak
April 8th, 2017, 04:16 PM
You have no context that backs up that statement. All you're doing is taking a statement with no context and running with it while accusing others who have a different viewpoint. All it takes is a little bit of time to get more information so you can have a better educated discussion.

Here's the link:
https://soundcloud.com/freedomsfortress/episode-6-deceptions-christians-believe-grace-for-salvation-work-for-the-rest-part-1

Take the time.


No thanks. I don't have time to listen to anyone's commentary.

I have the Bible.

good day.

jzeidler
April 8th, 2017, 04:22 PM
No thanks. I don't have time to listen to anyone's commentary.

I have the Bible.

good day.

It says a lot about someone when they would rather just throw insults around rather than take a few minutes to listen to something and have a civilized discussion about it

meshak
April 8th, 2017, 04:26 PM
It says a lot about someone when they are unwilling to take a few minutes to listen to something and then have a civilized discussion about it but they would rather just throw insults around.

sorry, my statement stays.

good day.:)

meshak
April 8th, 2017, 04:27 PM
JZ,

what I believe you are pushing mainly is "your works cannot save you".

am I right?

jzeidler
April 8th, 2017, 04:29 PM
JZ,

what I believe you are pushing mainly is "your works cannot save you".

am I right?

I'm pushing something more than that. But I'm not going to take the time to specifically type it out for you when all someone has to do is click on a link and find out more in depth. The link is meant to be a time saver.

meshak
April 8th, 2017, 04:31 PM
I'm pushing something more than that. But I'm not going to take the time to specifically type it out for you when all someone has to do is click on a link and find out more in depth. The link is meant to be a time saver.

You cannot convince me to your "your works cannot save you" corrupt doctrine.

Lazy afternoon
April 8th, 2017, 04:55 PM
The regenerate and repentant sinner will always understand his innate inability to please The Eternal Almighty

What an incorrect statement.

A regenerate is made able to please the Eternal Almighty.

That is what a new creature is made.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

LA

jzeidler
April 8th, 2017, 04:56 PM
You cannot convince me to your "your works cannot save you" corrupt doctrine.

I'm not going to get into this with you when you didn't even care enough to click the link and get a bigger picture and more context about the issue. The fact that you are unwilling to click the link tells me that you're not interested in having a discussion, just an argument.

meshak
April 8th, 2017, 04:57 PM
I'm not going to get into this with you when you didn't even care enough to click the link and get a bigger picture and more context about the issue. The fact that you are unwilling to click the link tells me that you're not interested in having a discussion, just an argument.

Ok, good day.

jzeidler
April 8th, 2017, 05:02 PM
Ok, good day.

You as well. Hopefully next time you will take the time to understand where the other person is coming from in order to have a thriving discussion.

daqq
April 8th, 2017, 06:11 PM
There are so many deceptions being taught in pulpits today. One of those deceptions is that grace is just to get you saved then you have to work at everything else. This deception spits in the face of Christ's work on the cross and the truth that is grace:

<*SNIP* - link deleted>

I went to the link and see that it really does not say, in writing, much more than what you have posted here in the OP, and is instead an audio recording. How is someone supposed to quote something said from an audio recording? Am I supposed to listen through this, and if I want to respond and discuss something here, write it down myself, (what a hassle), and then post it back here in this thread hoping that I heard it correctly and worded it correctly here so that I do not get accused of misquoting something said? This really is absurd because it is nothing more than a crass advertisement by what I see on the page that you linked to, (which is pretty clearly yourself and a friend).


Today my friend Grant and I begin to tackle the lie that has been preached in pulpits for years now. This lie spits in the face of what happened at the Cross. The lie is that grace is just for salvation but after that you have to work to keep in favor with God. Many times pastors don't preach it so bluntly as that but many times it is covertly preached.

Intro music by Adrian von Ziegler:

You can get all his music here:
<*SNIP* - link deleted>

You can also support me and my music directly on Patreon if you wish:
<*SNIP* - link deleted>

"This deception spits in the face of Christ's work on the cross and the truth that is grace"

The work of Messiah at Golgotha paid for his holy Testimony with his own blood:

Matthew 5:16-20 KJV
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

jzeidler
April 8th, 2017, 06:34 PM
I went to the link and see that it really does not say, in writing, much more than what you have posted here in the OP, and is instead an audio recording. How is someone supposed to quote something said from an audio recording? Am I supposed to listen through this, and if I want to respond and discuss something here, write it down myself, (what a hassle), and then post it back here in this thread hoping that I heard it correctly and worded it correctly here so that I do not get accused of misquoting something said? This really is absurd because it is nothing more than a crass advertisement by what I see on the page that you linked to, (which is pretty clearly yourself and a friend).



"This deception spits in the face of Christ's work on the cross and the truth that is grace"

The work of Messiah at Golgotha paid for his holy Testimony with his own blood:

Matthew 5:16-20 KJV
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

No, people can listen to it however they want and talk about whatever they want to talk about. It's not a college course.

Tnkrbl123!
April 8th, 2017, 10:04 PM
suit yourself.

I have read your posts, and your faith seems to be superficial, like the churches I have served.

I will suit myself lol. Because I have absolutely nothing to learn from you and your Godless Christianity. If you claim to be a Christian but do not believe Jesus is God then you have a Godless Christianity and your faith is nothing but a delusion and a lie. I feel very sad for you because you have no faith in Jesus as God Almighty.

Of course you don't know if you are saved because you don't believe the words of the God who saved you from your sins! If you follow Jesus, as you claim you do and do not believe He is God Almighty you are placing your faith and trust in a mere mortal!

You speak of following JESUS' word but never speak of following God's word..... if you do not believe Jesus is God but you place Him above God you are guilty of idol worship!!!!

I pray that you will repent of your sins of idol worship and place your trust in the true living God instead.

You go around telling people "Jesus loves you" but how could you POSSIBLY HAVE A CLUE!? This is the BIGGEST DELUSION OF ALL!

You have ZERO CLUE who Jesus is so how on earth can you call tell people that Jesus loves them!? You do not know Jesus so please stop putting words in His mouth because you have NO IDEA who He is, or what he thinks!!!!!!

You are EXACTLY like the Pharisees who studied the scriptures all day long. They knew the words of the Bible like the back of their hand but when the Author of the Bible HIMSELF came to be with them, they rejected Him! You say you know Jesus' words but you are completely blind to who he is! This is very sad indeed and if you would ask God to open your eyes to the truth and to reveal Himself to you He will! But as of right now you are completely blind.

and this IS TRUE because the Bible says in Matthew 7:15-20
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them."

and of course you know this verse because you go around using it AGAINST TRUE CHRISTIANS!

Meshak, because all you do is deny your Savior as your God and refuse Jesus your worship your life and your words reflect this very sad truth. All you do is go around TEARING CHRISTIANS DOWN, spread lies about them and spread lies about God! You degrade real Christians while pushing your false religion as truth. You are RUDE and just a COMPLETELY NASTY person. You are a RAVENOUS WOLF!!! It is a terrible sin and YOUR FRUITS reflect this. YOUR FRUIT IS ROTTEN TO THE CORE!

meshak
April 8th, 2017, 10:48 PM
Meshak, because all you do is deny your Savior as your God and refuse Jesus your worship your life and your words reflect this very sad truth.

You see, here it is. this comment explains your corrupt faith.

Jesus loves you, cheer up, my friend.:)

Truster
April 8th, 2017, 11:02 PM
What an incorrect statement.

A regenerate is made able to please the Eternal Almighty.

That is what a new creature is made.

Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

LA


I was speaking in relation to the OP, obviously, and so I meant that looking back at his conversion the repentant and regenerate sinner did nothing pleasing that led to his salvation.

intojoy
April 8th, 2017, 11:15 PM
Don't believe a word truster says. Luster


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Tnkrbl123!
April 9th, 2017, 01:15 AM
You see, here it is. this comment explains your corrupt faith.

Jesus loves you, cheer up, my friend.:)

no my comment explains YOUR CORRUPT FAITH. you must be slow of understanding so I will copy and paste my comment again for you to read and understand.... but please try to understand because you obviously cannot understand the word of GOD so you will not be able to understand this. but let's try it again....

I have absolutely nothing to learn from you and your Godless Christianity. If you claim to be a Christian but do not believe Jesus is God then you have a Godless Christianity and your faith is nothing but a delusion and a lie. I feel very sad for you because you have no faith in Jesus as God Almighty.

Of course you don't know if you are saved because you don't believe the words of the God who saved you from your sins! If you follow Jesus, as you claim you do and do not believe He is God Almighty you are placing your faith and trust in a mere mortal!

You speak of following JESUS' word but never speak of following God's word..... if you do not believe Jesus is God but you place Him above God you are guilty of idol worship!!!!

I pray that you will repent of your sins of idol worship and place your trust in the true living God instead.

You go around telling people "Jesus loves you" but how could you POSSIBLY HAVE A CLUE!? This is the BIGGEST DELUSION OF ALL!

You have ZERO CLUE who Jesus is so how on earth can you call tell people that Jesus loves them!? You do not know Jesus so please stop putting words in His mouth because you have NO IDEA who He is, or what he thinks!!!!!!

You are EXACTLY like the Pharisees who studied the scriptures all day long. They knew the words of the Bible like the back of their hand but when the Author of the Bible HIMSELF came to be with them, they rejected Him! You say you know Jesus' words but you are completely blind to who he is! This is very sad indeed and if you would ask God to open your eyes to the truth and to reveal Himself to you He will! But as of right now you are completely blind.

and this IS TRUE because the Bible says in Matthew 7:15-20
"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them."

and of course you know this verse because you go around using it AGAINST TRUE CHRISTIANS!

Meshak, because all you do is deny your Savior as your God and refuse Jesus your worship your life and your words reflect this very sad truth. All you do is go around TEARING CHRISTIANS DOWN, spread lies about them and spread lies about God! You degrade real Christians while pushing your false religion as truth. You are RUDE and just a COMPLETELY NASTY person. You are a RAVENOUS WOLF!!! It is a terrible sin and YOUR FRUITS reflect this. YOUR FRUIT IS ROTTEN TO THE CORE

Tnkrbl123!
April 9th, 2017, 01:29 AM
You see, here it is. this comment explains your corrupt faith.

Jesus loves you, cheer up, my friend.:)

Although I will add this time that I truly believe you are actually an ATHEIST or some other form of non Christian and you come on here and tear others down who truly follow Christ. You go around so non chalantly speaking for and putting words in the God Almighty's mouth when you both DO NOT KNOW HIM nor even BELIEVE IN HIM for that matter. Because I have noticed you have a very LIMITED knowledge and understanding of the Scriptures...in fact I don't think I have ever seen you post more than 1 or scriptures on here at all. You then go around telling TRUE BIBLE BELIEVING CHRISTIANS that THEIR God loves them..... this is when you say "Jesus loves you"... OF COURSE we know Jesus loves us! But it is a true slap in the face to have someone who does not believe in Jesus to be telling us that. Don't you agree that is terrible, disgusting behavior?

You do not know God because you do believe that the God of the BIBLE is God of all creation! But you have the gusto to tell Christians that their God loves them?

But because you do not believe in God you go around bashing Christians and people of other faiths all day long. You ridicule them and are a down right nasty to them ....and all of this from a person pretending to he a Christian who demonstrates no evidence of the Holy Spirit and a weak understanding of the Bible.

But you don't care because you have no faith and so you BELIEVE (FALSELY I will add) that it does not matter....But I will explain to why it DOES matter......

FIRSTLY, just because you don't believe in God, but you go around trying to hurt those who DO, is just a rotten way for ANY human being to act whether they are religious or not. It's just disgusting behavior!

Let's say you are an atheist or an evolutionist......don't you believe that millions years of evolution that brought humanity to the "civilized" beings they are today (that is debateable) should have weeded out the gross behavior you exhibit?

and SECONDLY, just because YOU don't BELIEVE that there is a God DOESN'T MEAN THERE IS NOT!!!!!
and when that day comes that you see Jesus, our Lord face to face, you will have to take account of your actions on how you treated His children so poorly. How you mocked them and tore them down. And now you will be without excuse because it has been pointed out to you.

so meshak, just because you do not believe in God does not mean He is not taking account of the poor way you are treating His children.

I pray that you will find the Lord Jesus before you die and accept God's free gift of grace and justification and forgiveness.

Now stop telling others that Jesus loves them, because that TRULY KNOW JESUS already know He l9ves them, because they have a personal daily deep relationship with Him!!!!!

You do not understand what this feels like because you do not know Him, but if you did know our God Jesus, our God the Father and our God the Holy Spirit then you would know that His love is so strong in the lives of those who worship Him with their entire being that Jesus Himself reminds them that they are LOVED BY HIM.

You just look completely foolish trying to speak for God Almighty to those who TRULY KNOW HIM!

Lazy afternoon
April 9th, 2017, 02:59 AM
Although I will add this time that I truly believe you are actually an ATHEIST or some other form of non Christian and you come on here and tear others down who truly follow Christ. You go around so non chalantly speaking for and putting words in the God Almighty's mouth when you both DO NOT KNOW HIM nor even BELIEVE IN HIM for that matter. Because I have noticed you have a very LIMITED knowledge and understanding of the Scriptures...in fact I don't think I have ever seen you post more than 1 or scriptures on here at all. You then go around telling TRUE BIBLE BELIEVING CHRISTIANS that THEIR God loves them..... this is when you say "Jesus loves you"... OF COURSE we know Jesus loves us! But it is a true slap in the face to have someone who does not believe in Jesus to be telling us that. Don't you agree that is terrible, disgusting behavior?

You do not know God because you do believe that the God of the BIBLE is God of all creation! But you have the gusto to tell Christians that their God loves them?

But because you do not believe in God you go around bashing Christians and people of other faiths all day long. You ridicule them and are a down right nasty to them ....and all of this from a person pretending to he a Christian who demonstrates no evidence of the Holy Spirit and a weak understanding of the Bible.

But you don't care because you have no faith and so you BELIEVE (FALSELY I will add) that it does not matter....But I will explain to why it DOES matter......

FIRSTLY, just because you don't believe in God, but you go around trying to hurt those who DO, is just a rotten way for ANY human being to act whether they are religious or not. It's just disgusting behavior!

Let's say you are an atheist or an evolutionist......don't you believe that millions years of evolution that brought humanity to the "civilized" beings they are today (that is debateable) should have weeded out the gross behavior you exhibit?

and SECONDLY, just because YOU don't BELIEVE that there is a God DOESN'T MEAN THERE IS NOT!!!!!
and when that day comes that you see Jesus, our Lord face to face, you will have to take account of your actions on how you treated His children so poorly. How you mocked them and tore them down. And now you will be without excuse because it has been pointed out to you.

so meshak, just because you do not believe in God does not mean He is not taking account of the poor way you are treating His children.

I pray that you will find the Lord Jesus before you die and accept God's free gift of grace and justification and forgiveness.

Now stop telling others that Jesus loves them, because that TRULY KNOW JESUS already know He l9ves them, because they have a personal daily deep relationship with Him!!!!!

You do not understand what this feels like because you do not know Him, but if you did know our God Jesus, our God the Father and our God the Holy Spirit then you would know that His love is so strong in the lives of those who worship Him with their entire being that Jesus Himself reminds them that they are LOVED BY HIM.

You just look completely foolish trying to speak for God Almighty to those who TRULY KNOW HIM!

Do you support the military?

LA

meshak
April 9th, 2017, 04:12 AM
Now stop telling others that Jesus loves them, because that TRULY KNOW JESUS already know He l9ves them, because they have a personal daily deep relationship with Him!!!!!

there more you rant the more you are exposing your superficial faith.

Jesus says "for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son..."

Jesus dies for His Father's will He dies because God loves the world, and so does He whether you accept it or not.

Cheer up and stop being so angry.

Jesus loves you, dear.

Zeke
April 9th, 2017, 08:22 AM
I disagree, her faith is strong. And she is right.

Jas_2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jas_2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Faith brings works friend.
1 Cor 13:1-13 disputes works having any value unless its a willing act through love.

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Zeke
April 9th, 2017, 08:29 AM
I happen to agree with Meshak for once. Most mainstream churches teach all you need is love. Or that you don't have to do anything to receive salvation.


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Yet you are still foundationally grafted into them in that you think the Crucifixion happened historically instead of within you.

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jzeidler
April 9th, 2017, 01:25 PM
In case anyone forgot the whole point of the post amid the name calling here you go:

https://soundcloud.com/freedomsfortress/episode-6-deceptions-christians-believe-grace-for-salvation-work-for-the-rest-part-1


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musterion
April 9th, 2017, 03:32 PM
Another Meshak is on duty today, I see.

Lazy afternoon
April 9th, 2017, 05:21 PM
Now stop telling others that Jesus loves them, because that TRULY KNOW JESUS already know He l9ves them, because they have a personal daily deep relationship with Him!!!!!

You do not understand what this feels like because you do not know Him, but if you did know our God Jesus, our God the Father and our God the Holy Spirit then you would know that His love is so strong in the lives of those who worship Him with their entire being that Jesus Himself reminds them that they are LOVED BY HIM.

You just look completely foolish trying to speak for God Almighty to those who TRULY KNOW HIM!

You may well be tested on that confession.

Only the Lord knows our hearts truthfully and He will deal with it in due course.



LA

jsanford108
April 9th, 2017, 09:09 PM
Yet you are still foundationally grafted into them in that you think the Crucifixion happened historically instead of within you.

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Am I understanding correctly that you are implying that the crucifixion was not a real event?

If that is the case, I do fully believe that the crucifixion happened historically, as described in the Gospels, as well as, various secular texts and sources.


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Bright Raven
April 9th, 2017, 09:42 PM
exactly. amen.

The most corrupt doctrine is to believe you don't have to work to be saved.

This is the most popular and practiced by most churches.Ephesians 2:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

meshak
April 9th, 2017, 10:06 PM
Ephesians 2:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Jesus never said faith alone saves.

He says to be faithful to Him until the end.

why don't you respect for what He commands?

It is clear that Jesus is not your Lord.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 9th, 2017, 11:07 PM
Jesus never said faith alone saves.

He says to be faithful to Him until the end.

why don't you respect for what He commands?

It is clear that Jesus is not your Lord.

Out of your "IMMENSE" ignorance, you speak. While Jesus was walking the Earth, He was preaching to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. He was preaching "The Kingdom Message." Later, Paul preached "The Grace Gospel" to the Gentiles. Your "confusion" lies in the fact that you refuse to believe in the writings of The Apostle Paul, (Romans through Philemon) because you've said that, he's an anti-Christ.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 9th, 2017, 11:09 PM
Ephesians 2:8-10 New King James Version (NKJV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Meshak rejects the "Grace Gospel" as preached by the Apostle Paul. That's why she's not a "True Christian."

patrick jane
April 9th, 2017, 11:24 PM
Meshak rejects the "Grace Gospel" as preached by the Apostle Paul. That's why she's not a "True Christian."I'm trying to reach out to you GM, I feel that you are a poor lost soul

jsanford108
April 10th, 2017, 12:14 PM
Jesus never said faith alone saves.

He says to be faithful to Him until the end.

why don't you respect for what He commands?

It is clear that Jesus is not your Lord.

I think that you are partially correct Meshak. As well as Bright Raven and others. Correct me if I am wrong, but you are holding a works-centric salvation view? Versus Bright Raven (correct me if I am wrong here, good sir) holds a faith alone view?

The most biblical supported doctrine would be faith+works. Never does it say "works alone," nor "faith alone." People can quote verses all day that say "by your faith you were saved," but that does not mean faith alone saves. Faith is the initial piece, however, it is works, with faith, that sustains.

How often did Christ teach to go out and do things? Same for the apostles. If faith was all that was necessary, there would have been no charges of action. James would never have written on faith, without works, being dead. James, as do the other apostles, teach faith with works. Not solely faith. Not solely works. A faith+works doctrine has nothing but support from within the Bible, and can easily be defended from the hollow attacks of works alone and faith alone.

I think if both sides, who are so opposed to the other, would take the and/with view, as opposed to the either/or view, they would find peace; and sounder doctrine. (this last paragraph is just my opinion)

Tambora
April 10th, 2017, 12:35 PM
. Faith is the initial piece, however, it is works, with faith, that sustains.

No it's not. Not any of YOUR works anyway.

Romans 5:18-19 KJV
(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


HINT: That one ain't you.


And in case those verses are not clear enough for ya ....

Romans 4:2-6 KJV
(2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
(3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
(4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
(5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,





Romans 11:6 KJV
(6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.



Romans 10:3 KJV
(3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Zeke
April 10th, 2017, 12:42 PM
Am I understanding correctly that you are implying that the crucifixion was not a real event?

If that is the case, I do fully believe that the crucifixion happened historically, as described in the Gospels, as well as, various secular texts and sources.


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Real event just didn't happen out side the kingdom of God which is the dwelling place of God within man Acts 17:24, Luke 17:20-21, 1Cor 3:16, Galatians 4:24 you look outwardly based on time.

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jsanford108
April 10th, 2017, 01:17 PM
No it's not. Not any of YOUR works anyway.

Romans 5:18-19 KJV
(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


HINT: That one ain't you.


And in case those verses are not clear enough for ya ....

Romans 4:2-6 KJV
(2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
(3) For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
(4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
(5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,





Romans 11:6 KJV
(6) And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.



Romans 10:3 KJV
(3) For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

I never said works alone justified a person. And you have not provided any evidence against works sustaining faith.

None of your verses provided say "faith alone." They discredit works alone, but not faith with works. How do you handle the entire Epistle of James? Especially James 2:24?! (In case you didn't know, this verse is the only one where "faith alone" appears, and is preceded by the words "not by." It kind of destroys the "faith alone" doctrines)

Tambora
April 10th, 2017, 01:22 PM
I never said works alone justified a person. And you have not provided any evidence against works sustaining faith. YOUR works have nothing to do with it, period.
You are not the one.
Only the righteousness and obedience of one saves.


They discredit works alone,They discredit any of your works, period.

jsanford108
April 10th, 2017, 01:26 PM
Real event just didn't happen out side the kingdom of God which is the dwelling place of God within man Acts 17:24, Luke 17:20-21, 1Cor 3:16, Galatians 4:24 you look outwardly based on time.

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I have no clue what you are even trying to relay here, buddy. Your punctuation and/or grammar is throwing me off. Yet, I will try and ascertain your meaning from the text.

The crucifixion didn't happen outside the kingdom of God, which is within man (as an individual)? That makes no logical sense. This infers that no actual, literal sacrifice took place. And if that is the case, then one could argue that no events within the Bible took place, and are the inventions of several authors over centuries. Who, miraculously, were all able to cross reference each other, despite the limited amount of physical copies of texts. Furthermore, that four of these men, the Gospel writers, were able to invent the exact same story, years apart. And, that the authors of the letters were able to have been able to cross reference each other and spread a belief in these Gospels, as well as preach on a metaphorical or allegorical event, with such conviction, that for over 1500 years, everyone thought it was literal. There is a serious lack of evidence and logic within such a theory/proposition.

"You look outwardly based on time;" Are you saying that I look outwardly based on time, or that one should look outwardly based on time? Add on to that, what does that mean to "look outwardly based on time?"

jsanford108
April 10th, 2017, 01:31 PM
YOUR works have nothing to do with it, period.
You are not the one.
Only the righteousness and obedience of one saves.

They discredit any of your works, period.

So there is no point in witnessing? Being charitable? Spreading the Gospel? Loving our neighbors, bearing accurate witnessing, abstaining from killing, etc. None of that should be done or is even worthwhile, according to you? After all, "only the righteousness and obedience of one saves."

"And that one ain't you."

The works I listed are things that we are commanded to do. Doing these actions is....works. But according to you, those aren't necessary. Heck, why even care what God commanded and asked of us.

meshak
April 10th, 2017, 02:25 PM
I think that you are partially correct Meshak. As well as Bright Raven and others. Correct me if I am wrong, but you are holding a works-centric salvation view?

What we are against is "faith alone" doctrine.

Faith without works is dead.

Dead faith cannot save you.

jsanford108
April 10th, 2017, 03:41 PM
What we are against is "faith alone" doctrine.

Faith without works is dead.

Dead faith cannot save you.

You are entirely accurate there.


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Angel4Truth
April 10th, 2017, 04:07 PM
Amen. Or the one where I have to give ten percent of my income to the church or God won't bless me. God blesses us before we give so any giving on our part is out of gratitude and never to receive a blessing. The best con-men are not out in the world they are in the church preaching a gospel that cannot save and fleecing the sheep for every dollar they can...just a disgrace to grace.

You mean you don't want the triple reaping jubliee seed blessing that ends at midnight so rush your seed offering to make a stand for your faith by sending in 300 dollars by midnight??

meshak
April 10th, 2017, 04:07 PM
You are entirely accurate there.


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that's the simple truth that so many churches choose to ignore.

that's why I say they are corrupt.

Angel4Truth
April 10th, 2017, 04:09 PM
exactly. amen.

The most corrupt doctrine is to believe you don't have to work to be saved.

This is the most popular and practiced by most churches.

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

You are a wolf meshak.

Epoisses
April 10th, 2017, 05:20 PM
You mean you don't want the triple reaping jubliee seed blessing that ends at midnight so rush your seed offering to make a stand for your faith by sending in 300 dollars by midnight??

Or the one where the pastor needs more money for one more well in Ethiopia. The Ethiopians don't need another well. They need someone to go tell them that all their sins are forgiven and they stand accepted and complete in Christ. When the burden of sin rolls off of peoples shoulders they receive power and strength from the Lord to dig themselves out of whatever problems they may find themselves in. The Christian do-gooder with his endless parade of good deeds who does everything except preach the gospel is not helping anyone.

Angel4Truth
April 10th, 2017, 05:39 PM
What we are against is "faith alone" doctrine.

Faith without works is dead.

Dead faith cannot save you.

You don't even understand that statement. Its saying one who claims Christ, yet shows no indication in their life anywhere, of being saved is likely not saved. Its not about works FOR salvation, its about AFTER salvation.

Salvation, cannot be earned in any way. Christ did it all. We are saved only by His grace.

Tambora
April 10th, 2017, 05:45 PM
So there is no point in witnessing? Being charitable? Spreading the Gospel? Loving our neighbors, bearing accurate witnessing, abstaining from killing, etc. None of that should be done or is even worthwhile, according to you? After all, "only the righteousness and obedience of one saves."

"And that one ain't you."

The works I listed are things that we are commanded to do. Doing these actions is....works. But according to you, those aren't necessary. Heck, why even care what God commanded and asked of us.Not one single person here has said that we should not even try to do good things, you clown.
But when you start implying that one must gain or maintain their salvation by their works, as you do, you are dead wrong.



Faith is the initial piece, however, it is works, with faith, that sustains. Again, not YOUR works. YOUR works are not included.

jsanford108
April 10th, 2017, 06:39 PM
Not one single person here has said that we should not even try to do good things, you clown.

That is what "faith alone" implies.

Provide evidence that supports your position and destroys mine. And please also show evidence of such teachings being taught by the apostles. If you really want to shine, provide evidence of such doctrine existing before Luther invented it.


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Tambora
April 10th, 2017, 07:03 PM
That is what "faith alone" implies. Saved by grace through faith. None of your works involved. Jesus paid the WHOLE price, you paid none.
grace - UNMERITED favor


Provide evidence that supports your position and destroys mine. And please also show evidence of such teachings being taught by the apostles. If you really want to shine, provide evidence of such doctrine existing before Luther invented it.

I already have, with scripture.

Epoisses
April 10th, 2017, 07:16 PM
That is what "faith alone" implies.

Provide evidence that supports your position and destroys mine. And please also show evidence of such teachings being taught by the apostles. If you really want to shine, provide evidence of such doctrine existing before Luther invented it.


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The doctrine of Justification by faith alone is one of the most attacked and misunderstood of all Protestant beliefs. Justification by faith alone excludes all human works as a means of attaining to or apprehending justification, it does not mean that believers produce no works at all. The believer’s works are produced by Christ via the Holy Spirit in and thru us. So those who uphold the gospel of ‘faith alone’ will always produce works of the Spirit or works of love. While those who uphold the gospel of ‘faith plus works’ will always produce works of the flesh or works of the law which are never acceptable to God. The Catholic church being the most famous example of the corrupted ‘faith plus works’ gospel where Christ is robbed of his power to save sinners to the uttermost. Souls that are won to Christ under the corrupted ‘faith plus works’ gospel often enter a lukewarm state and are only partially if ever fully converted. Faith alone being the hot state and works alone being the cold state in the famous Laodicean analogy.

Lazy afternoon
April 10th, 2017, 08:38 PM
The doctrine of Justification by faith alone is one of the most attacked and misunderstood of all Protestant beliefs. Justification by faith alone excludes all human works as a means of attaining to or apprehending justification, it does not mean that believers produce no works at all. The believer’s works are produced by Christ via the Holy Spirit in and thru us. So those who uphold the gospel of ‘faith alone’ will always produce works of the Spirit or works of love. While those who uphold the gospel of ‘faith plus works’ will always produce works of the flesh or works of the law which are never acceptable to God. The Catholic church being the most famous example of the corrupted ‘faith plus works’ gospel where Christ is robbed of his power to save sinners to the uttermost. Souls that are won to Christ under the corrupted ‘faith plus works’ gospel often enter a lukewarm state and are only partially if ever fully converted. Faith alone being the hot state and works alone being the cold state in the famous Laodicean analogy.

They were neither hot nor cold.

Lazy afternoon
April 10th, 2017, 08:44 PM
You don't even understand that statement. Its saying one who claims Christ, yet shows no indication in their life anywhere, of being saved is likely not saved. Its not about works FOR salvation, its about AFTER salvation.

Salvation, cannot be earned in any way. Christ did it all. We are saved only by His grace.

That has always been what I have said.

1Ti 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

meshak
April 10th, 2017, 09:23 PM
The Christian do-gooder with his endless parade of good deeds who does everything except preach the gospel is not helping anyone.

Neither claiming God is love yet killing their enemy at wars.

meshak
April 10th, 2017, 09:27 PM
Christians killing their enemy is blasphemy against Jesus. War is not of Jesus. Jesus does not advocate or approve of war for His followers.

Christians in the military is the most corrupt practice of Christian communities.

jsanford108
April 11th, 2017, 01:00 PM
I already have, with scripture.

I apologize. Please refresh me, because I did not see any verse that said "faith alone."


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Tambora
April 11th, 2017, 01:05 PM
Christians killing their enemy is blasphemy against Jesus. War is not of Jesus. Jesus does not advocate or approve of war for His followers.

Christians in the military is the most corrupt practice of Christian communities.
Exodus 15:3 KJV
(3) The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

meshak
April 11th, 2017, 02:21 PM
I apologize. Please refresh me, because I did not see any verse that said "faith alone."


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I think Paul said that a few times.

That could take it out of context a big time.

jsanford108
April 11th, 2017, 07:42 PM
The doctrine of Justification by faith alone is one of the most attacked and misunderstood of all Protestant beliefs. Justification by faith alone excludes all human works as a means of attaining to or apprehending justification, it does not mean that believers produce no works at all. The believer’s works are produced by Christ via the Holy Spirit in and thru us. So those who uphold the gospel of ‘faith alone’ will always produce works of the Spirit or works of love. While those who uphold the gospel of ‘faith plus works’ will always produce works of the flesh or works of the law which are never acceptable to God. The Catholic church being the most famous example of the corrupted ‘faith plus works’ gospel where Christ is robbed of his power to save sinners to the uttermost. Souls that are won to Christ under the corrupted ‘faith plus works’ gospel often enter a lukewarm state and are only partially if ever fully converted. Faith alone being the hot state and works alone being the cold state in the famous Laodicean analogy.

I am going to work through this quote and highlight areas of fault.

"Justification by faith alone excludes all human works as a means of attaining to or apprehending justification, it does not mean that believers produce no works at all:" Correct. It also renders any works as a product of faith, null and void. AKA: useless.

"The believer’s works are produced by Christ via the Holy Spirit in and thru us:" Does this include sinful actions? Because if not, then works are a product of a person's will. Granted, good works, such as charity, are aided by the inspiration of Christ/Holy Spirit, but that does not mean that the works are those belonging to the Holy Spirit. Allow me to clarify, if I may.

In Revelation, when "christians" approach Christ and say "did we not cast out demons in your name," He says, "Depart. I never knew you." (this is that lovely analogy of lukewarm and hot/cold that you love to reference). Are these acts not good? And isn't your argument that any good acts performed are those of the Holy Spirit? Compare that with a Christian (who accepts faith alone doctrine) who never goes to church. Why should they? They are saved by their faith, no? Is this direct contradiction a product of the Holy Spirit? The action is not empirically bad, nor good. Let us add to that the Christian (once again, faith alone subscriber) who masturbates. Are their actions those of the Holy Spirit? Naturally one would say not. But these are actions of a Christian.

"So those who uphold the gospel of ‘faith alone’ will always produce works of the Spirit or works of love:" Not true at all. I just provided an example of a work of lust, existing withing a "faith alone" Christian. I know many devout "faith alone" Christians who struggle with masturbation and lustful temptations.

"While those who uphold the gospel of ‘faith plus works’ will always produce works of the flesh or works of the law which are never acceptable to God:" False again. Many atheists are charitable. Are these the works of the law/flesh? One would say acts of charity and goodwill are Godly actions and works.

"The Catholic church being the most famous example of the corrupted ‘faith plus works’ gospel:" Combine this statement with the last one, and you have a great falsehood. The Catholic Church is the largest missionary denomination in the world. Over 60% of all finances go to missions and the missionaries and in aiding those who they reach out to.

"corrupted ‘faith plus works’ gospel where Christ is robbed of his power to save sinners to the uttermost:" How is this so? This is always stated, but never supported by any decent piece of logic or reasoning.

"Souls that are won to Christ under the corrupted ‘faith plus works’ gospel often enter a lukewarm state and are only partially if ever fully converted:" Where is your evidence of this? Please provide it and the actual statistics. (this seems to be more of an invented fact on your/whoever told you's part)

"Faith alone being the hot state and works alone being the cold state:" Please show Scriptural evidence and support of this. Or even logic would suffice. (once again, this appears to be an invention of your mind and doctrine)

Almost your entire statement is without evidence, without biblical support, and littered with false applications and facts. I do think the one point you made, which is partially true, is that the Doctrine of Faith Alone is attacked and misunderstood in protestant beliefs. I do not know if it is the most attacked, but it could very well be. Especially since Calvinists are adamantly opposed to it. However, one could but scan the forums here and see that the Doctrine of Election is more often than not attacked (and misunderstood if one talks to a Calvinist). But I will give you the benefit of the doubt on that statistic. (As far as Faith Alone vs Faith+Works. Faith+Works is always more vehemently attacked. And definitely misunderstood or the target of misapplied ideas and ideologies.)

I do thank you for your comment though, as I feel it was the most accurate/precise at demonstrating the average belief of Protestants who adhere to faith alone doctrines, and their applications of beliefs towards faith+works doctrine.

Epoisses
April 12th, 2017, 05:05 PM
I am going to work through this quote and highlight areas of fault.

"Justification by faith alone excludes all human works as a means of attaining to or apprehending justification, it does not mean that believers produce no works at all:" Correct. It also renders any works as a product of faith, null and void. AKA: useless.

How could works that are a product of faith in Christ be null and void - long winded blowhard! Anyone who can't get to the point is a waste of my time. Paul stressed justification by faith alone and James stressed works of love as the true fruit of justification. Both were correct.

jsanford108
April 12th, 2017, 08:06 PM
How could works that are a product of faith in Christ be null and void - long winded blowhard! Anyone who can't get to the point is a waste of my time. Paul stressed justification by faith alone and James stressed works of love as the true fruit of justification. Both were correct.

Half of my response was your quotes.

I posed the questions of works in relation to Christian nature, which you have not answered.

Paul did not stress justification by faith alone. Never did he say "faith alone." James stressed the role of works with justification. Note the quote of James 2:23, "you are justified by your works, not by faith alone."

You have simply ignored any logical contradictions with your doctrine, and chosen to resort to name calling. As well as dismissing reason as "wasting of time."


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Epoisses
April 12th, 2017, 08:56 PM
Half of my response was your quotes.

I posed the questions of works in relation to Christian nature, which you have not answered.

Paul did not stress justification by faith alone. Never did he say "faith alone." James stressed the role of works with justification. Note the quote of James 2:23, "you are justified by your works, not by faith alone."

You have simply ignored any logical contradictions with your doctrine, and chosen to resort to name calling. As well as dismissing reason as "wasting of time."


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Paul did stress justification by faith without the works of the law over and over and over. We are never justified by our works but a true justified believer will always produce works of the Spirit or works of love. You're just not capable of comprehending it. If you believe that you are justified by your works then you are fallen from grace. The works that James describes in chapter 2 were not works of the law they are works of love. He even used Rahab as an example of someone who was justified by works and her works were lying to her own people to protect the Hebrew spies. See I can make James say we are justified by lying!

jsanford108
April 12th, 2017, 10:07 PM
Paul did stress justification by faith without the works of the law over and over and over. We are never justified by our works but a true justified believer will always produce works of the Spirit or works of love. You're just not capable of comprehending it. If you believe that you are justified by your works then you are fallen from grace. The works that James describes in chapter 2 were not works of the law they are works of love. He even used Rahab as an example of someone who was justified by works and her works were lying to her own people to protect the Hebrew spies. See I can make James say we are justified by lying!

Provide a quote of Paul saying such a thing as "faith alone."

Explain how we are never justified by works, when James says we are.

I never said faith+works meant "works of the law."

And you say you can make James say such things, yet you can't explain the contradictions within your doctrine.

Faith+works is far more Scriptural than faith alone. It isn't my comprehension that is lacking; it is the mental gymnastics you go through to convince yourself your unbiblical doctrine is true, that is impressive.


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patrick jane
April 12th, 2017, 10:37 PM
Provide a quote of Paul saying such a thing as "faith alone."

Explain how we are never justified by works, when James says we are.

I never said faith+works meant "works of the law."

And you say you can make James say such things, yet you can't explain the contradictions within your doctrine.

Faith+works is far more Scriptural than faith alone. It isn't my comprehension that is lacking; it is the mental gymnastics you go through to convince yourself your unbiblical doctrine is true, that is impressive.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)How do your "works" stack up? You think God is impressed? :rotfl:

glorydaz
April 12th, 2017, 10:37 PM
Faith+works is far more Scriptural than faith alone. It isn't my comprehension that is lacking; it is the mental gymnastics you go through to convince yourself your unbiblical doctrine is true, that is impressive.



According to Paul, you can glory in your works, but not before God. So you can glory in your works before other men. They can see your works and assume you might be doing those out of faith. God, however, can see into your heart....when He sees your faith, He considers you justified. Our works are reckoned as debt to God...they are only what is owed Him. I think this text makes it very clear.


Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Lazy afternoon
April 13th, 2017, 12:37 AM
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.



Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Psa 119:1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
Psa 119:2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
Psa 119:3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
Psa 119:4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
Psa 119:5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
Psa 119:6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.
Psa 119:7 I will praise thee with uprightness of heart, when I shall have learned thy righteous judgments.
Psa 119:8 I will keep thy statutes: O forsake me not utterly.
Psa 119:9 BETH. Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
Psa 119:10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
Psa 119:12 Blessed art thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.
Psa 119:13 With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth.
Psa 119:14 I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as much as in all riches.
Psa 119:15 I will meditate in thy precepts, and have respect unto thy ways.
Psa 119:16 I will delight myself in thy statutes: I will not forget thy word.
Psa 119:17 GIMEL. Deal bountifully with thy servant, that I may live, and keep thy word.
Psa 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
Psa 119:19 I am a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.

You need to understand it Glorydaz, your teachers deceived you into the do nothing theory.

LA

Lazy afternoon
April 13th, 2017, 12:45 AM
During the second world war Christians were killing each other.

The German Christians had sworn an oath to their father of the nation who was a demon.

So that just shows that a Christian can be lost as they were, by their bad works.

LA

glorydaz
April 13th, 2017, 12:52 AM
During the second world war Christians were killing each other.

The German Christians had sworn an oath to their father of the nation who was a demon.

So that just shows that a Christian can be lost as they were, by their bad works.

LA

Haven't you heard? Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is really a Christian?

I thought everyone knew that. Paul certainly knew. 2 Corinthians 11:26

meshak
April 13th, 2017, 03:35 AM
Haven't you heard? Not everyone who claims to be a Christian is really a Christian?

I thought everyone knew that. Paul certainly knew. 2 Corinthians 11:26

so true!

we finally agree!

That's why Jesus says we know them by their fruit.

You ought to know fruit is what you produce witch is works, practice.

jsanford108
April 13th, 2017, 08:15 AM
How do your "works" stack up? You think God is impressed? :rotfl:

You mean those works that God and Christ commanded of us?


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patrick jane
April 13th, 2017, 08:24 AM
You mean those works that God and Christ commanded of us?


Sent from my iPhone using TOL (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78367)Pray tell, what works are commanded that you obey?

Zeke
April 13th, 2017, 09:52 AM
I have no clue what you are even trying to relay here, buddy. Your punctuation and/or grammar is throwing me off. Yet, I will try and ascertain your meaning from the text.

The crucifixion didn't happen outside the kingdom of God, which is within man (as an individual)? That makes no logical sense. This infers that no actual, literal sacrifice took place. And if that is the case, then one could argue that no events within the Bible took place, and are the inventions of several authors over centuries. Who, miraculously, were all able to cross reference each other, despite the limited amount of physical copies of texts. Furthermore, that four of these men, the Gospel writers, were able to invent the exact same story, years apart. And, that the authors of the letters were able to have been able to cross reference each other and spread a belief in these Gospels, as well as preach on a metaphorical or allegorical event, with such conviction, that for over 1500 years, everyone thought it was literal. There is a serious lack of evidence and logic within such a theory/proposition.

"You look outwardly based on time;" Are you saying that I look outwardly based on time, or that one should look outwardly based on time? Add on to that, what does that mean to "look outwardly based on time?"
Either you are the temple of the God of living or you are still waiting for some outward event based on flesh and blood traditions, no one died on a cross to save you. The whole drama happens within which isn't logical to the first Adam I agree 2Cor 3:6.

I never said works alone justified a person. And you have not provided any evidence against works sustaining faith.

None of your verses provided say "faith alone." They discredit works alone, but not faith with works. How do you handle the entire Epistle of James? Especially James 2:24?! (In case you didn't know, this verse is the only one where "faith alone" appears, and is preceded by the words "not by." It kind of destroys the "faith alone" doctrines)


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God's Truth
April 13th, 2017, 10:41 AM
There are so many deceptions being taught in pulpits today. One of those deceptions is that grace is just to get you saved then you have to work at everything else. This deception spits in the face of Christ's work on the cross and the truth that is grace:

https://soundcloud.com/freedomsfortress/episode-6-deceptions-christians-believe-grace-for-salvation-work-for-the-rest-part-1

All who want to be saved must do what the Way says to do.

God did not nail obedience to the cross.

Jesus came to earth and gave the new guidelines and regulations for the New Covenant, and he told us what we must do to be saved, what we must do to be born again.


…unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven; Matthew 18:3.

You will never enter unless you become like a little child.

You will not be forgiven unless you forgive your brother and sister from the heart.

…unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart; Matthew 18:35.

jsanford108
April 13th, 2017, 12:49 PM
Pray tell, what works are commanded that you obey?

The famous ten commandments, love thy neighbor, aiding widows and the poor, etc.


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jsanford108
April 13th, 2017, 12:51 PM
All who want to be saved must do what the Way says to do.

God did not nail obedience to the cross.

Exactly.



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God's Truth
April 13th, 2017, 01:02 PM
Exactly.



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Amen.

Angel4Truth
April 13th, 2017, 02:11 PM
so true!

we finally agree!

That's why Jesus says we know them by their fruit.

You ought to know fruit is what you produce witch is works, practice.

Unless youre a serious stalking and can read peoples minds and prayers, you are equipped to be a fruit inspector, past whether or not someone is teaching outside the word, its how i know youre a wolf. I search the scriptures and it tells me so, since you deny many of them.

Angel4Truth
April 13th, 2017, 02:12 PM
Exactly.



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Here is obedience:

John 6:28 Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” 29 Jesus (not meshak and other wolves) replied, “This is the work of God: to believe in the One He has sent.”

jsanford108
April 13th, 2017, 03:05 PM
Here is obedience:

John 6:28 Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?” 29 Jesus (not meshak and other wolves) replied, “This is the work of God: to believe in the One He has sent.”

And the Ten Commandments, and charity, and care for the infirm, etc....


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Epoisses
April 13th, 2017, 03:46 PM
Provide a quote of Paul saying such a thing as "faith alone."

Explain how we are never justified by works, when James says we are.

I never said faith+works meant "works of the law."

And you say you can make James say such things, yet you can't explain the contradictions within your doctrine.

Faith+works is far more Scriptural than faith alone. It isn't my comprehension that is lacking; it is the mental gymnastics you go through to convince yourself your unbiblical doctrine is true, that is impressive.


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For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Rom. 4:2-6

Abraham was justified by faith alone - a righteousness without works.

Epoisses
April 13th, 2017, 03:49 PM
The famous ten commandments, love thy neighbor, aiding widows and the poor, etc.


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Typical law righteousness from unbelievers who trust in what they 'do' instead of what Christ has already 'done'.

Lazy afternoon
April 13th, 2017, 05:16 PM
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Rom. 4:2-6

Abraham was justified by faith alone - a righteousness without works.

Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Epoisses
April 13th, 2017, 05:29 PM
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Abraham was justified by faith alone (Romans) and he was justified by his works (James) because his works revealed he had genuine faith. You can't pit Paul against James because both preached the gospel. The stupid Dispy will say that Paul's gospel was for the Gentiles and James' gospel was only for the Jews when nothing could be farther from the truth. God requires you to accept Paul and James and not many can 'do' that. We see the exact same thing with Jesus when he focused on works. But when we look at the works he was talking about they were works of faith and love.

I know thy works, and love, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first - Rev. 2:19.

meshak
April 13th, 2017, 05:50 PM
I know thy works, and love, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first - Rev. 2:19.

what do you think this is?

How do you read it?

meshak
April 13th, 2017, 05:52 PM


Abraham was justified by faith alone - a righteousness without works.

You are so typical protestant.

Abraham was obedient even willing to sacrifice his beloved son because God told him to do..

Lazy afternoon
April 13th, 2017, 05:55 PM
Abraham was justified by faith alone (Romans) and he was justified by his works (James) because his works revealed he had genuine faith. You can't pit Paul against James because both preached the gospel. The stupid Dispy will say that Paul's gospel was for the Gentiles and James' gospel was only for the Jews when nothing could be farther from the truth. God requires you to accept Paul and James and not many can 'do' that. We see the exact same thing with Jesus when he focused on works. But when we look at the works he was talking about they were works of faith and love.

I know thy works, and love, and service, and faith, and thy patience, and thy works; and the last to be more than the first - Rev. 2:19.

Yes, both Romans and James agree.

James is saying that faith without works is dead.

LA

God's Truth
April 13th, 2017, 06:06 PM
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Rom. 4:2-6

Abraham was justified by faith alone - a righteousness without works.

Abraham BELIEVED and was justified. That is about BELIEVING we are made clean by Jesus' blood INSTEAD of being made clean by circumcision and diet and an external washing and blood from an animal.

Abraham had ALL THE PROMISES given to him BECAUSE he obeyed EVERYTHING God said to do.

Genesis 26:4-5 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."

You are mixing up purification/ceremonial works with the new law and how we always have to obey God.

God's Truth
April 13th, 2017, 06:11 PM
You are so typical protestant.

Abraham was obedient even willing to sacrifice his beloved son because God told him to do..

Amen.

Epoisses
April 13th, 2017, 06:50 PM
Yes, both Romans and James agree.

James is saying that faith without works is dead.

LA

The faith that justifies us is a faith devoid of human works where we try to 'earn' our standing with God.

The works that justify us are those produced in and thru us by the Holy Spirit. These are different than the above works.

I have to just explain this on a kindergarten level and maybe something will sink into the iron forehead of unbelief.

meshak
April 13th, 2017, 06:55 PM
The faith that justifies us is a faith devoid of human works where we try to 'earn' our standing with God.

The works that justify us are those produced in and thru us by the Holy Spirit. These are different than the above works.

I have to just explain this on a kindergarten level and maybe something will sink into the iron forehead of unbelief.

So you disregard Jesus word of "if you love Me, keep my commands".

If you don't love Jesus, you will not inherit God's kingdom.

You need to know basic of being Jesus' follower, dude.

You cannot jump to college level without knowing elementary level.

We are talking about elementally level, friend, which you don't seem to know.

Epoisses
April 13th, 2017, 06:58 PM
So you disregard Jesus word of "if you love Me, keep my commands".

If you don't love Jesus, you will not inherit God's kingdom.

You need to know basic of being Jesus' follower, dude.

You cannot jump to college level without knowing elementary level.

We are talking about elementally level, friend, which you don't seem to know.

You need a new hat, dude!

meshak
April 13th, 2017, 07:04 PM
You need a new hat, dude!

Epo,

You really need to be serious about your faith. You seem to be just playing Christian.

Lazy afternoon
April 13th, 2017, 07:05 PM
The faith that justifies us is a faith devoid of human works where we try to 'earn' our standing with God.

The works that justify us are those produced in and thru us by the Holy Spirit. These are different than the above works.

I have to just explain this on a kindergarten level and maybe something will sink into the iron forehead of unbelief.

There are not many works done in the believer by the Holy Spirit, except in regard to His working upon our heart.


A believer is encouraged to do good works from his/her own renewed heart, no longer a heart of stone.

LA

meshak
April 13th, 2017, 07:07 PM
A believer is encouraged to do good works from his/her own renewed heart, no longer a heart of stone.

LA

Yes!

God's Truth
April 13th, 2017, 07:15 PM
The faith that justifies us is a faith devoid of human works where we try to 'earn' our standing with God.

The works that justify us are those produced in and thru us by the Holy Spirit. These are different than the above works.

I have to just explain this on a kindergarten level and maybe something will sink into the iron forehead of unbelief.

No one receives the Holy Spirit unless they repent of their sins.

jsanford108
April 13th, 2017, 08:52 PM
Typical law righteousness from unbelievers who trust in what they 'do' instead of what Christ has already 'done'.

So you dismiss things that God and Christ commanded as "law righteousness." Makes sense with all the other claims you ascribe to.


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jsanford108
April 13th, 2017, 08:54 PM
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.ï»

Abraham was justified by faith alone - a righteousness without works.

That quote never says "faith alone." Also, Abraham did have faith, thus demonstrated by his works. Did he not go to a mount to sacrifice Isaac? That sounds like a work to me. Did he have faith that God would stop him? No. He in fact was worried about the weight of such obedience (which is works). Obedience = works.


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God's Truth
April 14th, 2017, 12:53 PM
That quote never says "faith alone." Also, Abraham did have faith, thus demonstrated by his works. Did he not go to a mount to sacrifice Isaac? That sounds like a work to me. Did he have faith that God would stop him? No. He in fact was worried about the weight of such obedience (which is works). Obedience = works.


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People misunderstand Paul. They think when he says not of by works they think he is saying not of by obeying, or not of by obedience.

The not of by works Paul is speaking of is not of by the purification/ceremonial works, like circumcision.

Just look at the scriptures, the scriptures said, at the time of Abraham, there would be a time we would be saved by faith and not by the work of CIRCUMCISION.

Circumcision was a sign of works, the works we no longer have to do.

We still as always have to obey God, we just do not have to get circumcised in the flesh anymore.

Epoisses
April 14th, 2017, 03:27 PM
So you dismiss things that God and Christ commanded as "law righteousness." Makes sense with all the other claims you ascribe to.


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So go keep the law then law keeper! We'll see how long you last once you're cut off from grace and become the devil's chew toy. So sick of these wannabes! Jesus said I would that you were hot or cold. Jesus would rather you be an extreme law keeper and see what that experience is like or be an extreme grace banger who talks of nothing but God's unmerited grace. Go keep the law and see what it's like. Convert to Judaism or join one of the cults like Hebrew roots or SDA.

Epoisses
April 14th, 2017, 03:29 PM
That quote never says "faith alone." Also, Abraham did have faith, thus demonstrated by his works. Did he not go to a mount to sacrifice Isaac? That sounds like a work to me. Did he have faith that God would stop him? No. He in fact was worried about the weight of such obedience (which is works). Obedience = works.


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It does say faith alone ignoramus! Faith without works is a faith that is alone you noob wannabe believer!

jsanford108
April 14th, 2017, 08:39 PM
So go keep the law then law keeper! We'll see how long you last once you're cut off from grace and become the devil's chew toy. So sick of these wannabes! Jesus said I would that you were hot or cold. Jesus would rather you be an extreme law keeper and see what that experience is like or be an extreme grace banger who talks of nothing but God's unmerited grace. Go keep the law and see what it's like. Convert to Judaism or join one of the cults like Hebrew roots or SDA.

Calm down, Pharisee. No need to start shouting crucify. Are you unable to have a division without name calling?

All I have done is point out glaring flaws in logic, along with misquotation. I understand that I have decimated your arguments, but that is no need for middle school insults.

Why not try arguing from a different angle? Or leading the discussion to a topic you have more evidence for? Either of these would allow one to at least feel comfortable in debate, permitting one to avoid resulting to name calling.


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Epoisses
April 14th, 2017, 09:28 PM
Calm down, Pharisee. No need to start shouting crucify. Are you unable to have a division without name calling?

All I have done is point out glaring flaws in logic, along with misquotation. I understand that I have decimated your arguments, but that is no need for middle school insults.

Why not try arguing from a different angle? Or leading the discussion to a topic you have more evidence for? Either of these would allow one to at least feel comfortable in debate, permitting one to avoid resulting to name calling.


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You my non-friend are the Pharisee who ever lives to trust in your carnal works. Faith is an alien concept that you see with your eyes but cannot grasp with your heart. It was heart work with Christ and you are a pretender and a non-converted observer who has come to spy out the liberty of those who are free in Christ. Keep working your way to heaven and maybe you will stumble and fall over your own glaring ignorance.

Angel4Truth
April 14th, 2017, 09:30 PM
And the Ten Commandments, and charity, and care for the infirm, etc....


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The only works i do that are worthy of God, were already made for me to walk in by God, no credit is mine. I boast only in Him.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

jsanford108
April 14th, 2017, 10:23 PM
The only works i do that are worthy of God, were already made for me to walk in by God, no credit is mine. I boast only in Him. .

So you are not responsible for your actions?


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jzeidler
April 15th, 2017, 07:09 PM
For those of you who haven't see the OP yet:

There are so many deceptions being taught in pulpits today. One of those deceptions is that grace is just to get you saved then you have to work at everything else. This deception spits in the face of Christ's work on the cross and the truth that is grace:

https://soundcloud.com/freedomsfortress/episode-6-deceptions-christians-believe-grace-for-salvation-work-for-the-rest-part-1


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Angel4Truth
April 17th, 2017, 08:08 PM
So you are not responsible for your actions?


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I am responsible for whether I let Him work through me (called grieving the Spirit if i don't cooperate). The work though is His, created by Him to happen through me via His Spirit.

meshak
April 17th, 2017, 08:22 PM
For those of you who haven't see the OP yet:

There are so many deceptions being taught in pulpits today. One of those deceptions is that grace is just to get you saved then you have to work at everything else. This deception spits in the face of Christ's work on the cross and the truth that is grace:

https://soundcloud.com/freedomsfortress/episode-6-deceptions-christians-believe-grace-for-salvation-work-for-the-rest-part-1




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Poor jz, no one is paying attention to his OP and plea, not even one.