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MichaelEden
January 13th, 2004, 05:05 PM
The bible

It is a book containing the knowledge of good and evil.

The forbidden fruit was not an apple. The fruit of a tree is also paper. And upon the pages of the bible is the knowledge of good and evil. The bible is poisoned with the knowledge of evil.

Ritualistic animal sacrifices, ceremonies incorporating the blood of dead animals, superstitious numbers, curses, evil spirits, dark prophecies... all in the bible.

Plotting, conspiracy, mass-murder, betrayal, genocide, slavery, suffering, wars... all in the bible.

A book is not 'Holy' if it contains the knowledge of evil, Satan, the devil, demons...

It is darkness. It is contaminated. It is unclean. It is poison.

Religion is the church of the poison mind. Minds poisoned by the knowledge of evil. People are deceived by religion.

The kingdom of God is within us all. Not within the pages of a book containing the knowledge of evil. I have recently shut it for good. I will not touch, nor taste of it again.

Because of Jesus Christ, I'm back in the land of the living. I've torn off my fig-leaf, and am returning to Eden. I am who God made me to be. The shame, guilt, and confusion is past-tense.

Thank You Jesus.

The Tree of Life = Jesus Christ

Eat freely from this tree and be saved.

Love,

Michael111

!!!!First
January 13th, 2004, 05:17 PM
I've torn off my fig-leaf, and am returning to Eden. I am who God made me to be.

So how long have you been living at a natualist's colony? - Can you forgive me for teasing you?

Keep posting and keep explaining - hope the weather is warm where you live

!!!!First

Clete
January 13th, 2004, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by MichaelEden

The bible

It is a book containing the knowledge of good and evil.

The forbidden fruit was not an apple. The fruit of a tree is also paper. And upon the pages of the bible is the knowledge of good and evil. The bible is poisoned with the knowledge of evil.

Any book that contains the knowledge of the devil is dangerous.

Ritualistic animal sacrifices, ceremonies incorporating the blood of dead animals, superstitious numbers, curses, evil spirits, dark prophecies... all in the bible.

Plotting, conspiracy, mass-murder, betrayal, genocide, slavery, suffering, wars... all in the bible.

Religion is the church of the poison mind. Minds poisoned by the knowledge of evil. People are deceived by religion.

The kingdom of God is within us all. Not within the pages of a book containing the knowledge of evil. I have recently shut it for good. I will not touch, nor taste of it again.

Because of Jesus Christ, I'm back in the land of the living. I've torn off my fig-leaf, and am returning to Eden. I am who God made me to be. The shame, guilt, and confusion is past-tense.



Thank You Jesus.

The Tree of Life = Jesus Christ.

Freedom. Liberation. Love.

Eat freely from this tree and be saved.

Interesting topic!

You are correct in one respect, but you've overstated it by about a mile and a half at least.

First of all The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is itself spoken of in the Bible, as is the Tree of Life, and Jesus and so your argument is somewhat self defeating.
That having been said however, you are partially correct.
The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is a symbol of the law. It is the law that is the knowledge of good and evil, and the law is contained within the pages of the Bible.
Further, it should not be assumed that because the law gives us knowledge of evil that it is itself evil. In fact it is quite the opposite; the law is a description of God’s righteous character. It is the standard by which we are judged because our father (Adam) placed himself (and us by extension) under its authority when he ate of The Tree in the Garden of Eden. If we fall short of its standard in the slightest degree we are subject to its righteous punishment.
Thank God for His Son, The Lord Jesus, who came to be one of us, who lived a sinless life, who bleed and died in our place, and who conquered death and rose on the third day never to taste death again so that we might have victory in Him! Praise Him above all, for without Him we are less than the dust of the ground and doomed for eternity!

Resting in Him,
Clete

Turbo
January 13th, 2004, 06:39 PM
Well said, Clete! :first: POTD

Clete
January 13th, 2004, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Well said, Clete! :first: POTD

Wow! :o

Thank you!

It always blows me away when you guys honor me like this. I really don't feel worthy of it!

A big thank you goes out to Bob Enyart on this one. I would know virtually nothing of The Law and Grace if not for his ministry. And more specifically The Plot (http://www.kgov.com/store/detail/literature/theplot.html)!

Resting in Him,
Clete

Knight
January 13th, 2004, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Wow! :o

Thank you!

It always blows me away when you guys honor me like this. I really don't feel worthy of it!

A big thank you goes out to Bob Enyart on this one. I would know virtually nothing of The Law and Grace if not for his ministry. And more specifically The Plot (http://www.kgov.com/store/detail/literature/theplot.html)!

Resting in Him,
Clete :ha: another enyartian cult member. ;)

Clete
January 13th, 2004, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by Knight

:ha: another Enyartian cult member. ;)

You’d better believe it!

Knight, have you ever considered giving Bob his own smiley? I'd bet it would get a lot of use around here!

Clete

Servo
January 14th, 2004, 01:17 PM
Ezekiel 31


1 Now it came to pass in the eleventh year, in the third month, on the first day of the month, that the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 2"Son of man, say to Pharaoh king of Egypt and to his multitude:


"Whom are you like in your greatness?
3Indeed Assyria was a cedar in Lebanon,
With fine branches that shaded the forest,
And of high stature;
And its top was among the thick boughs.
4The waters made it grow;
Underground waters gave it height,
With their rivers running around the place where it was planted,
And sent out rivulets to all the trees of the field.


5"Therefore its height was exalted above all the trees of the field;
Its boughs were multiplied,
And its branches became long because of the abundance of water,
As it sent them out.
6All the birds of the heavens made their nests in its boughs;
Under its branches all the beasts of the field brought forth their young;
And in its shadow all great nations made their home.


7"Thus it was beautiful in greatness and in the length of its branches,
Because its roots reached to abundant waters.
8The cedars in the garden of God could not hide it;
The fir trees were not like its boughs,
And the chestnut[1] trees were not like its branches;
No tree in the garden of God was like it in beauty.
9I made it beautiful with a multitude of branches,
So that all the trees of Eden envied it,
That were in the garden of God.'


10"Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Because you have increased in height, and it set its top among the thick boughs, and its heart was lifted up in its height, 11therefore I will deliver it into the hand of the mighty one of the nations, and he shall surely deal with it; I have driven it out for its wickedness. 12And aliens, the most terrible of the nations, have cut it down and left it; its branches have fallen on the mountains and in all the valleys; its boughs lie broken by all the rivers of the land; and all the peoples of the earth have gone from under its shadow and left it.


13"On its ruin will remain all the birds of the heavens,
And all the beasts of the field will come to its branches--


14"So that no trees by the waters may ever again exalt themselves for their height, nor set their tops among the thick boughs, that no tree which drinks water may ever be high enough to reach up to them.


"For they have all been delivered to death,
To the depths of the earth,
Among the children of men who go down to the Pit.'


15"Thus says the Lord GOD: "In the day when it went down to hell, I caused mourning. I covered the deep because of it. I restrained its rivers, and the great waters were held back. I caused Lebanon to mourn for it, and all the trees of the field wilted because of it. 16I made the nations shake at the sound of its fall, when I cast it down to hell together with those who descend into the Pit; and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, were comforted in the depths of the earth. 17They also went down to hell with it, with those slain by the sword; and those who were its strong arm dwelt in its shadows among the nations.
18"To which of the trees in Eden will you then be likened in glory and greatness? Yet you shall be brought down with the trees of Eden to the depths of the earth; you shall lie in the midst of the uncircumcised, with those slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude,' says the Lord GOD."

geralduk
January 15th, 2004, 08:40 AM
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil canot be a symbol of the LAW.
For the LAW gives knowledge or convicts of SIN .
Paul also said that the law was given for the lawless or unrightous.

First there was a tree and it was SPECIFIC and planted in the midst of the garden.
Whatever 'type' of tree it was it cannot be a SYMBOL.
For if you accept that it was a symbol then you must also accept that the tree of LIFE was one as well.
This clearly is not the case as can be seen in the book of revaltion.
One cannot partake of a symbol only of REALITY.

It is a tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil.
We do not get a knowledge of good by the law but of sin.
Secondly they ALREADY knew what was GOOD to DO and what was EVIL to DO.
In that God had told them...
"of ALL the trees in the garden you may FREELY eat...."
This then INCLUDED the tree of LIFE.
By so saying God told them what was GOOD to eat and therefore to DO.
God gave man the PERFECT liberty then, to DO GOOD.
bUT OF THE KNOWLEDGE of good and evil thou shalt not eat for in the day ye do ye shall surtely die"
Thus God ytold them what was EVIL to eat and therefore to DO.
Some seeking to justyfy themselves say then why did God put the tree in the garden.that thye should not eat?
Well if nothing else it is written that God PLANTED the garden "east of Eden"
Is it not then GODS garden NOT MANS?
and who is man that says He cannot plant in His garden that which pleases Him?
There si something else we can know.
That is by so saying what He did to man.
He revealed His ETERNAL will for man.
That is that he should LIVE and NOT die.
if it was otherwise He "would have told them"
But it is confirmed under the LAW of Moses.
When He said to them "this day i have put before you life and death,choose LIFE"
We might argue that this confirms the nature of the tree as being unto the law.
No it doesnt.
For when we look at the gospels we find the Lord saying that "the devil has come to kill to streal and to destroy but I have come that you might have LIFE and life more abundantly"
For did He not come to seek and to save that which was lost?
Thus that which was LOST in the garden is RESTORED and more IN CHRIST.
AND ARE RECONCILED to God by the blood of HIS cross.

So man was created PERFECT in the life he was given and was without sin.
and therefore DEATH was not in the world.
and when God reated man He said "let us make man in our own image"
and though it is spoken later yet within this verse is wrapped up the truth "That man shall not LIVE by bread alone but by every Word that PROCCEEDETH FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD"

Thus man though had nourishment for the BODY by the things that he
ate.
Yet in truth LIVED by that WORD that said which was GOOD TO EAT and which was EVIL to eat.
and while he "kept the Word of His patience" He LIVED and did not DIE.
But there came a time while "man slept' that the woman was tempted by the devil.
Not directly but by a QUESTION so constituted that it drew her into a lie.

MANY QUESTIONS IN THESE FORUMS ARE OF A SIMILAR NATURE.

So with all the APEARENCE of one seeking the truth he got her into conversation.

"HATH GOD SAID......."?


AND then first with a SLANDER on GODS character(many do that here as well)
Then by subtle argument The devil CHANGED the TRUTH into a LIE by the ADDITION of just one word"NOT"
and she 'listened' to it and accpeted what was sown in her mind and by doing REJECTED the WORD of God.
and by so doing became BLIND to the TRUE nature OF HE WHO WAS SPEAKING TO HER and of the tree and the consequences of eating from it.

and she began to LOOK at the tree that it was GOOD to eat.
and REASONED that it would "make her wise"
So in rejecting what God had told her was GOOD AND EVIL she made up her own mind and according to her senses "did that which was right in her own eyes"

Thus was the fall of man and which man is STILL doing.
and it would seem most of the church as well.
For if you went by these forums men determine what is truth by thier OWN reasoning and what seems RIGHT TO THEM.

Some again seekign to justyfy themselves then say well if God knows all things then it was Gods will .
This clearly is FOLLY for the same reasons already laid out.
In that God CLEARLY told them HIS will.
As He does to US.

What then are we to make of it all?
Well if you ask a GOOD question ON THE FOUNDATION of FAITH and trust in God.
Then you will sonner or later GET A GOOD ANSWER TO IT!

Coming to the same point I came to ask this question..and you have to 'listen'closely to it.

WHY if they would have NOT died AND CONTINUED on LIVING had they NOT eaten of the tree ,was there a tree of LIFE which though they had had free acces to BEFORE they had eaten but had NOT after "lest THEY LIVE FOREVER in thier sin"

The only conclusion possible is that the LIFE they had when created was CORRUPTABLE.
Not that God created them corrupt nor were they corrupted.
But that the life they had COULD be CORRUPTED.
and to KEEP them from CORRUPTION God gave them His WORD that they might live.

It folows then that as God had given them FREE ACCESS to the tree of life"you may freely eat" then it was (and is) the ETERNAL will of God that in the fullness of time they would become partakers of the tree of LIFE.
But what LIFE was this?
ETERNAL life. UNCORRUPTABLE LIFE.

Thus it folows that Gods will was(and is) THAT MAN should OVERCOME temptation and the devil and PUT OFF CORRUPTION and put on INCORRUPTION.

Did not JESUS SPEAK OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD as like unto a man who had two sons and one sought his inheritence BEFORE THE TIME normaly apointed?

So before man got to the tree of LIFE the devil got him eating of the tree of 'death'
Often when men are seeking the truth today men of false religion will lead them astray with empty promises and false hope.
and they conclude by thier own reasoning that it is true but thier 'light' is in fact "great darkness"

If he had done this submitted to the WORD of God and RESISTED the devil then he would have known also what is good and what is evil.
in a way that he could not have known any other way.
Not by being overcome with evil but by overcoming it.
But he would have STILL LIVED!

bUT WHERE as the FIRST Adam failed in a PARADISE.
The LAST Adam conquered in a WILDERNESS.
"and where as through one mans disobedience..........."
How much more then though one mans obedience......."

in conclusion then.
When a perfson gets 'saved' he enters into that ETERNAL WILL of God preordained from before the foundations of the world.
Our salvation then is no second guess of God nor a reaction to the fall of man.
AND WE CAN look BACK to the VERY BEGINNING and see GODS FAITHFULLNESS to ALL who believe.
HIS steadfastness through all the ups and downs and mans failures.
ENDURING and PROGRESIVELY revealing THE PLAN OF THE AGES and all those men and women who repent and seek not what is right in their own eyes but that which is right in HIS. and seek FIRST the kingdom of God and HIS rightousness will find that God HAS NOT CHANGED even from the beginning UNTILL THIS DAY and FOREVER MORE.
AND IS MORE CERTAIN the rising of the sun. and more sure than the ground we stand on.

For He is the same yesterday today and forever.

Clete
January 15th, 2004, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by geralduk

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil canot be a symbol of the LAW.
For the LAW gives knowledge or convicts of SIN .
Paul also said that the law was given for the lawless or unrightous.

First there was a tree and it was SPECIFIC and planted in the midst of the garden.
Whatever 'type' of tree it was it cannot be a SYMBOL.
For if you accept that it was a symbol then you must also accept that the tree of LIFE was one as well.
This clearly is not the case as can be seen in the book of revaltion.
One cannot partake of a symbol only of REALITY.

It is a tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil.

Yes of course it was an actually tree but it was absolutely a symbol of the law. The Law happened because of that tree, it was in effect its fruit.
I do not have time to explain further right now. I'm sorry, I would love to explain, but it is somewhat of a complex issue and I'm rather short on time. I will try to work something up and post it in the near future. I just wanted to drop you this note to acknowledge that I had seen your post and wasn't ignoring you.
Also I know your post was rather lengthy and that it took quite a while to type all that up and I do appreciate that fact. When I post again, I'll try to be more responsive!
In the mean time you must call 1-888-8ENYART and talk to them about getting The Plot (http://www.kgov.com/store/detail/literature/theplot.html) by Bob Enyart. There is a chapter in that book that talks specifically about The Law vs. Grace and explains in great detail about the ministry of The Tree, the ministry of The Law, Grace, and why does the Bible revolve so much around Trees i.e. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil at the beginning of the Bible, Christ dieing on a tree (becoming a curse for us), the Law was nailed to a tree, and finally The Tree of Life in Heaven at the end of the Bible and lots more. If you are at all interested in this topic, you absolutely must read The Plot (http://www.kgov.com/store/detail/literature/theplot.html) even if you disagree with the positions Bob has taken on this web site, you won't be disappointed in Bob's teaching on this subject in any respect.
Hope to correspond with you more soon!

Resting in Him,
Clete

Poly
January 15th, 2004, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer


Knight, have you ever considered giving Bob his own smiley? I'd bet it would get a lot of use around here!


Hmmm.. what would a cult leader smilie look like? :think:

Clete
January 15th, 2004, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by Poly

Hmmm.. what would a cult leader smilie look like? :think:

I don't know! :think:

I sure would like to find our though! ;)

MichaelEden
January 15th, 2004, 10:24 PM
Jesus is the tree of life

delivering us from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil


one tree causes death

one tree gives eternal life


one tree causes confusion, division, condemnation, suspicion, pain, guilt, shame, fear

one tree offers Truth, life, light, tolerance, acceptance, freedom, equality, understanding, unity, love


Michael111

Clete
January 15th, 2004, 10:40 PM
Jesus is the tree of life - By His Grace we will be offered fruit from the Tree of Life.

delivering us from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil = delivering us from The Law


one tree gives eternal life = Grace

one tree causes death = The Law


one tree offers Truth, life, light, acceptance, freedom, equality, understanding, unity, love (I removed the word tolerance) = Grace

one tree causes confusion, division, condemnation, suspicion, pain, guilt, shame, fear = The Law


geralduk,

I responded to MichaelEden's post in this manner for your benefit.
Do you start to see now what I'm getting at with respect to The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil being symbolic of The Law?
They are the same; they have the same ministry; that being, a ministry of death. The one is simply an extension, a fulfillment of the other.

Resting in Him,
Clete

geralduk
January 16th, 2004, 08:08 AM
Clete:

While I understand your thinking on it I do not agree with your line of reasoning.

Not to generate a 'vain debate' or simply for contentions sake.
But simply because though on the face of it it looks ok.
But for instance you say that the tree of life pertains to all the things you say of it.
Yet there is NO record of them eating of it.
and all the things you say of it they HAD ALREADY when they were CREATED.
They did not obtain them by eating of it.
For then God would have created them unsatisfactoraly.
You say is is the tree of eternal grace?
Then why were they BARRED from it ?
For in truth I as a sinner doing that which was right in my own eyes was in need of that grace and to which now |I have recived.
Yet if they then had sinned and were in need of that SAME grace as I then why then were they barred?
Yet If they had eaten of it as you sugest then they had (as you say) ETERNAL GRACE then how could they have FALLEN?
bUT SEEING THAT GOD after they had fallen had PROMISED ONE who would come by which men would be delivered from thier sin and would FIND THAT WHICH WAS LOST then that which was promised for the FUTURE was NOT for the present!
in that they were BARRED from it lest they LIVE FOREVER in their sin!
It is my contention that though they were given FREE access to the tree of life they NEVER GOT TO EAT OF IT because before they did so they ate of the tree of the knowldge of good and evil.

The best place to study the law is the book of ROMANS.
for it touches on its charcter and PURPOSE.
and PAUL also touches on these matetrs as well.
In the light of romans I cannot see how the tree of the knowldge of good and evil is the LAW or a symbol of it.

The two trees there fore are not grace and the law.


But are simply what THEY SAY THEY ARE.

The tree of LIFE being that ETERNAL UNCORUPTABLE LIFE.
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil being simply what it says.
But 'knowledge ' that comes too late and kills.

There LIFE was CORRUPTED by eating of the tree.

Because the "seed of the serpent" had been SOWN the FRUIT being DEATH.
and sin came into the world and death through sin.

It is NOT THE EATING of the tree we need to look at.
But HOW they CAME TO DO SO.and the PROCCESS which LED them to it.
For the LAW was not in operation.
The LAW does NOT bring a knowldge of GOOD but a "knowledge of SIN"
They ALREADY knew what was GOOD and what was EVIL.
iM REPEATING MYSELF.

But please look at ROMANS and then reconsider that tree in the light of it.

Clete
January 16th, 2004, 07:51 PM
Geralduk,

It is my fault that you have misunderstood. I saw an opportunity to briefly express some of what I'm getting at and took it. I should not have, without having first laid the foundational work it is based upon.

I am going back over the material in preparation for a more detailed explanation of what I mean. For now just rest assured that I do not equate The Tree of Life with Grace. For the purposes of illustration it was useful to draw a correlation because of the way MichaelEden had worded his post but I understand why it caused more confusion that anything else.

When I post here again, I'll have a more complete explanation of the relationship between The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and The Law.

By the way, from here on out let's refer to 'The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil' as simply 'The Tree of Knowledge' or even 'ToK' either way its a lot easier to type!

Resting in Him,
Clete

the Sibbie
January 16th, 2004, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by MichaelEden
The kingdom of God is within us all. Not within the pages of a book containing the knowledge of evil.Of course. God does not desire to live eternally with pages of a book. That is why the Body of Christ consists of His children.
I have recently shut it for good. I will not touch, nor taste of it again.

Because of Jesus Christ, I'm back in the land of the living. I've torn off my fig-leaf, and am returning to Eden. I am who God made me to be. The shame, guilt, and confusion is past-tense.



Thank You Jesus.

The Tree of Life = Jesus Christ.

Freedom. Liberation. Love.

Eat freely from this tree and be saved. But you wouldn't know any of this (or at least very much of it) if it wasn't recorded in the Bible. Sure, other books/people could have recorded it, but they probably would have left out alot of detail. Without the Old Testament we might not understand why a blood sacrifice was required for our sin.

I don't understand why you go to such great lenghts to avoid it. :confused: Sure, alot of unpleasent events were recorded in it, but that doesn't mean you can't learn from it. Don't you think God would want you to diligently search His word to really understand Him and His mission better?

geralduk
January 17th, 2004, 09:33 AM
I will not use the term tree of 'knowledge' for the simple reason is that it gives room for the devil in mens minds.
as it is a greek concept.

I would like some
coments to on what I have already written and where you might see any 'fault' in my reasoning.

For it is the 'argument' that convinces me that it was NOT the law.

Clete
January 17th, 2004, 10:00 AM
geralduk,

You reasoning is flawed for several reasons some less severe than others, but primarily your argument is based on the idea that The Law only gives us a knowledge of what is evil and not what is good, this is not so.

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and strength.

Love you neighbor as yourself.

These two alone sum up the whole law, both of which describe good behavior not evil.

Honor you Father and Mother.
This is another law that I thought of off the top of my head that describes good behavior.

The entire section of The Law that describes how criminals should be dealt with and how disputes should be settled are also sections of The Law that describe righteous behavior.

The Law definitely is not only a description of what is evil. It is in fact a reflection of God's righteous character. If you were to follow The Law exactly (which of course is not possible), then you would be, by definition, righteous.

I've just recently moved to a new home and I'm having a bit of trouble finding my material on this subject but I plan to do some serious searching this weekend for all of my books, when I find it I'll post something that will establish this in a more Biblical manner.

God Bless!

Resting in Him,
Clete


P.S. You said...


I will not use the term tree of 'knowledge' for the simple reason is that it gives room for the devil in mens minds.
as it is a greek concept.

Although I'm not sure where you got this idea, I won't argue the piont. If you like you can type out the entire name.
As for me, the Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil will hence forth be refered to as the TTKGE.

geralduk
January 19th, 2004, 04:50 AM
Thats fine.
The initials are ok for it.


My basis for the LAW as is stated in ROMANS.
IT WAS TO GIVE A KNOWLEDGE of sin.

In the keeping of it it you cannot inherit eternal life(see the young rich man)

Clete
January 19th, 2004, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by geralduk

Thats fine.
The initials are ok for it.
:thumb:



My basis for the LAW as is stated in ROMANS.
IT WAS TO GIVE A KNOWLEDGE of sin.
Yes, I agree that it gave a knowledge of sin, it's just that it also gave a knowledge of good as well.


In the keeping of it you cannot inherit eternal life(see the young rich man)
I agree completely!

By the way, I found at least part of my material on this and am going through it now. I'll be ready to present some of it shortly! Also, I'm going out of town on Tuesday and will gone until the weekend so if you don't see anything from me for a few days its only because I don't have access to the Internet from my hotel room. :(

Resting in Him,
Clete

geralduk
January 19th, 2004, 08:26 AM
In WHAT WAY doesa it give a knolwdge of good?
Seeing that after they had eaten of it thier eyees were opened to thier nakedeness and shame for doing evil in the sight of God.
In no way can it be described as being "good"
Seeing that God has ALREADY shown what is good not only by imstruction but also by the recreation of the world.

Clete
January 19th, 2004, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by geralduk

In WHAT WAY doesa it give a knolwdge of good?
Seeing that after they had eaten of it thier eyees were opened to thier nakedeness and shame for doing evil in the sight of God.
In no way can it be described as being "good"
Seeing that God has ALREADY shown what is good not only by imstruction but also by the recreation of the world.

The way you've asked your question I can't tell for sure what exactly you are asking.

If you are asking how the TTKGE gave a knowledge of good then that one is easy. IF you know evil also know good and vise versa. That why they call it the Tree of The Knowledge of Good AND Evil.

If you are asking how The Law gives a knowledge of good the answer would be the same.

Also there's what I already said in my previous post about how the law describes good behavior as well as bad.

Resting in Him,
Clete

MichaelEden
January 20th, 2004, 02:57 PM
the forbidden fruit...

the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...


It's not only that it's been mis-used...

It's that it ever was used in the first place.


If a portion of something is evil, or contains evil...

then it is unclean.


The knowledge of good and evil is poisoned. Contaminated by the knowledge of evil.

It is unclean.




Jesus = the tree of life




Thank You Jesus

I wash my hands of the bible.

You wash me clean.

Michael111

LightSon
January 20th, 2004, 03:24 PM
MichaelEden,


Originally posted by MichaelEden
If a portion of something is evil, or contains evil...

then it is unclean.

The knowledge of good and evil is poisoned. Contaminated by the knowledge of evil.

It is unclean.


So if the tree is unclean, then do you hold that God directly created something that was innately unclean?


Originally posted by MichaelEden

I wash my hands of the bible.

You wash me clean.

:confused: Are you implying that the bible is unclean and that after handling it, you are thereby unclean???

I suppose that if (in your view) God can create an unclean tree, then He can create an unclean Bible. :down:

"Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. " Proverbs 30:5

Thanks for clarifying your position.

Clete
January 20th, 2004, 06:25 PM
Lightson,

Michael Eden is clearly an irrational nutcase! Don't humor him, it will only serve to frustate you and further intrench him into his wackoism.
I'm going out of town for a few days. When I return I hope to respond to Geralduk and further establish the idea that the TTKGE represent the Law. When I do, I intend to start another thread with it so as not to bring any more attention to Michael's insanity than is necessary.

God bless!

Resting in Him,
Clete

freelight
January 20th, 2004, 07:38 PM
Greetings ME(MichaelEden) and all,...........................the story/mythos of the two trees in the Garden have enraptured and titillated Man for centuries. The trees must exist as well as being symbolic, allegorical, correlative.

I wouldnt lump up the whole Bible as being the tree of knowledge as ME does - neither necessarily that the tree represents the Law. To me....the tree of knowledge was inevitable to be tasted....as by it Man would enter into knowledge. The knowledge of good and evil was necessary or at least became a part of mans consciousness....giving him an enhanced form of discernment/conscience. This grant of consciousness naturally gave him the recognition of good and evil. Just because this consciousness included awareness of evil....doesnt make it All evil! In some gnostic mythos...the eating of the tree was essential to give man gnosis(knowledge) for his own enlightenment/salvation.

The tree of knowledge also represents duality - the fall into matter-ial thinking and divided consciousness away from the Whole of Life. Man partook of this forbidden knowledge in the attempt of becoming like God.....and indeed he did to a degree become like God as God himself acknowledged. However...in this state.....they were not permitted to take of the tree of Life at that time.

We are not told how long the Tree of Life was withheld from them...but Life would be promised to them in the fullness of times....when God would send his Word. Generally I hold the tree of Life to represent the SPIRIT. The tree of knowledge represents the soul. The soul cannot save or prosper apart from the Spirit - and therefore....man not only needs gnosis but Spirit-Life!

Soul = tree of knowledge of good and evil
Spirit= tree of Life

Adam and Eve had their soul awakened by partaking of the fruit of knowledge - it brought a division of consciousness...but at the same time an enhanced form of discernment/conscience. Its limited vision of duality brought death.

In due time.....when Man was ready......the tree of Life (the SPIRIT) would be granted to him. Thru the Christ and the outpourring of the Holy Spirit...this was fully realized in the dispensation of grace....and now the Spirit is avaiblable to all men....who will receive it thru the Son.

I take more to a metaphysical view of the Garden and the trees as a garden existing in Mans consciousness - the trees representing aspects of that consciousness. Man may eat of the knowledge of good and evil which includes the carnal realm and tend towards death........or he may eat of the Spirit.....and have life and peace. It depends on what man sets his mind upon. He may dwell in the psyche and reap its fruit which is always duality and divided consciousness....or he may dwell in the spirit....and abide in the wholeness of LIFE.

If God did not want Adam to partake of the fruit.....then why did he place the tree in the garden within his reach? Ah,.......he put it in there just to test Adam did he? Hmmm.....not so sure. In the foreknowledge of God ....this was already known as potential and was part of mans destiny/experience in his souls progress...towards Life. He would have to taste death...and then be renewed in Life - taste good and evil....to move/graduate into the eternal gnosis of the GOOD - experience it all. Thru-out this we have the element of free will ever working - and can only speculate that somehow this will becomes more divinely united with Gods Will.....as the soul ascends...and takes on immortality.


So I would agree with ME on some points...but not that Bible is the tree of knowledge(it is simple a collection of books). Jesus is the tree of Life to us....who brings us into the Life of the SPIRIT.

I would agree with Clete on some aspects shared so far concerning the law and grace relative to the trees.

I do not agree with geralduk that the Law was only given to expose sin - sure...it does that...but its a schoolmaster as well...and demonstrates righteousness/goodness. Remember...the law is good, just and holy.

Thru-out all this we realize that we all have the faculty of conscience...wherein certain laws are written within our being. This is native to all men. Even those without the Law or external laws.....will be judged by what is in their heart relative to conscience. To follow Pauline thought further.......the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace. The law of the Spirit of LIFE in christ Jesus (who is as the Tree of Life).......has set us free from the law of sin and death (struggle of duality, carnality, etc.). Soul-life can only prosper one so far.....and then it ends in the carnality of death. Therefore....the soul after it has exhausted itself...in the pursuit of Life.......embraces the Spirit...who is LIFE...and then the soul may abide in the Spirit......in submission to the Christ...and thereby have and enjoy LIFE ETERNAL.

*just for fun......it is rumored in at least one textbook....that the tree of Life was an actual tree brought in from another world during the creation of Eden...which had the inherent properties within its fruit of immortality. It existed for some time in the early eras of earths beginning....and even perhaps among some of the early patriarchs - some were said to partake of the tree...which gave them an enhanced longevity - but the fruits powers were modifed by other factors and in some cases did not give full immortality....but only the enhanced longevity of physical life. At some point in time...the hallowed tree was taken from the earth. In this narrative....the tree and its fruit were 'actual'.

In Johns visions....he saw that the trees of Life would grow along the river of Life....proceeding from Gods throne...and the leaves of the tree...would be for the healing of the nations. I wonder if these trees also bear fruit? Also....I wonder if these trees are of the same genus of the tree of Life which was in the original Garden of Eden.

Many wonders!


paul

MichaelEden
January 20th, 2004, 09:55 PM
the forbidden fruit...

the tree of the knowledge of good and evil...


If a portion of something is evil, or contains evil...

then it is unclean.


The knowledge of good and evil is poisoned. Contaminated by the knowledge of evil.

It is unclean.


Jesus = the tree of life


Thank You Jesus

I wash my hands of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

You wash me clean.

Michael111

freelight
January 21st, 2004, 02:57 AM
Hi ME and all,

When I read ME's latest response......I kinda giggled inside - appears we may dealing with a unique individual...and/or a broken record? :cool:

Just for continued sport.....the tree of knowledge brings one into the gnosis of good and evil - it does not necessarily mean the tree itself is evil - the tree's fruit brought enlightenment! Man became like God KNOWING good and evil. You see....the issue is in the 'knowing' (awareness, knowledge, consciousness, perception, discernment). So the tree itself is not necessarily 'unclean' because it gives the partaker the knowledge of evil - the issue is consciousness....and what a person does with his knowledge! So....by your logic........if you have ever thought an evil thought or had awareness of evil....then you are unclean/contaminated!

Adam & Eve did partake of the tree of knowledge.....and since you came from Adam......you too have this 'knowledge of good and evil' - you have a conscience - a faculty of discernment. How could a free moral being function without such knowledge???? It is therefore not an unclean thing to have such knowledge. Knowledge has its place in journey of the soul....and its spiritual progress.

Yes,.....you keep stating that Jesus is the Tree of Life. Bravo. You can wash your hands as much as you want of the tree of knowledge......yet I question the value of such an exercise. As long as you and I are free conscious beings.......there exists an awareness of good and evil......this will continue to be a part of our psyche......until or unless....our soul-consciousness becomes wholly unified in the divine Consciousness of solitary Goodness and no longer has any trace of evil or awareness of it. Has this state or transformation occurred yet? I think not....although its potential ever abides in those who are born of the Spirit....who have the divine deposit.....the Christ.

So far ME.....you appear to have something going for you....and that is correlating Jesus as the Tree of Life - the Vine. The rest rests on your own ideology - since you reject the Bible as being the tree of knowledge of good and evil....which you have yet to prove by sound illustration/argument.....you really have no biblical foundation with which to debate your case....unless you wish to delve a little into philosophical/metaphysical speculations.

Your speculations await further elaboration if you are able.



paul

geralduk
January 21st, 2004, 05:33 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

The way you've asked your question I can't tell for sure what exactly you are asking.

If you are asking how the TTKGE gave a knowledge of good then that one is easy. IF you know evil also know good and vise versa. That why they call it the Tree of The Knowledge of Good AND Evil.

If you are asking how The Law gives a knowledge of good the answer would be the same.

Also there's what I already said in my previous post about how the law describes good behavior as well as bad.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I ask the question in the way I do to get you to look again at the question and the nature of the problem we are seekign to resolve.
For I think you are looking at the situation in the garden from where we are NOW.
I am looking at it as if we was there. and nothing has yet happened.

You are argueing with the implication that the tree of the knowldge of good and evil needed to be eaten so that they might know the diference between good and evil.
I say this because you are justyfying the that tree as giving them the knowldge of good as well as evil when they ate of it.
I am saying that according to the book of romans that the LAW was given so that men might have a knowledge of SIN and be convicted of it.
That sin might be known to be sin by the law.

Now there are TWO laws.
"The LAW of sin and death."
and the "LAW of CHRIST"

BOTH laws are GOOD.

Yet after they ate of the tree of the knowlegde of GOOD AND EVIL.
They KNEW Gods knowledge of what was good and what was evil was in DEED TRUE.
and that thiers was NOT.
abd it was when the "VOICE of the LORD...." walked in the cool of the evening and called to them were they CONVICTED and they were afraid and went and hid themselves from the presence of the lord.

The IMPLICATION that is inyour words is that they only knew good AFTER they had eaten.
This is not so.
They KNEW ALREADY what was good and what was evil to do as I showed in my first post.
When they ATE of it they did so by doing what was right IN THIER OWN EYES and thus choosing what was good and what was evil according to thier own reasoning and eyes.(many do that in these forums too)
Then when they ate of it thier eyes were opened to see that they had sinned.
Now that which was EVIL was in thier own hearts and that which was GOOD they had; by so doing, been SEPERATED FROM.

If they had overcome evil with the good that God had given them(THE WORD) then would they have known by EXPERIENCE themselves what was good and what was evil but still would have LIVED!
For they would have been sanctified by the truth and would have inherited eternal life.

as it was "while men slept Hid enemy came and sowed tares..."

geralduk
January 21st, 2004, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by freelight

Hi ME and all,

When I read ME's latest response......I kinda giggled inside - appears we may dealing with a unique individual...and/or a broken record? :cool:

Just for continued sport.....the tree of knowledge brings one into the gnosis of good and evil - it does not necessarily mean the tree itself is evil - the tree's fruit brought enlightenment! Man became like God KNOWING good and evil. You see....the issue is in the 'knowing' (awareness, knowledge, consciousness, perception, discernment). So the tree itself is not necessarily 'unclean' because it gives the partaker the knowledge of evil - the issue is consciousness....and what a person does with his knowledge! So....by your logic........if you have ever thought an evil thought or had awareness of evil....then you are unclean/contaminated!

Adam & Eve did partake of the tree of knowledge.....and since you came from Adam......you too have this 'knowledge of good and evil' - you have a conscience - a faculty of discernment. How could a free moral being function without such knowledge???? It is therefore not an unclean thing to have such knowledge. Knowledge has its place in journey of the soul....and its spiritual progress.

Yes,.....you keep stating that Jesus is the Tree of Life. Bravo. You can wash your hands as much as you want of the tree of knowledge......yet I question the value of such an exercise. As long as you and I are free conscious beings.......there exists an awareness of good and evil......this will continue to be a part of our psyche......until or unless....our soul-consciousness becomes wholly unified in the divine Consciousness of solitary Goodness and no longer has any trace of evil or awareness of it. Has this state or transformation occurred yet? I think not....although its potential ever abides in those who are born of the Spirit....who have the divine deposit.....the Christ.

So far ME.....you appear to have something going for you....and that is correlating Jesus as the Tree of Life - the Vine. The rest rests on your own ideology - since you reject the Bible as being the tree of knowledge of good and evil....which you have yet to prove by sound illustration/argument.....you really have no biblical foundation with which to debate your case....unless you wish to delve a little into philosophical/metaphysical speculations.

Your speculations await further elaboration if you are able.



paul

There is not alot of difference between this argument that that which was given to Eve.

MichaelEden
February 4th, 2004, 03:26 PM
fruit inspection:


wars fought in the name of religion...

violent, and bloody Crusades...

unspeakable acts of cruelty committed in the name of religion, and the bible...


Jesus = the tree of life

Michael111

the Sibbie
February 4th, 2004, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by MichaelEden

fruit inspection:


wars fought in the name of religion...

violent, and bloody Crusades...

unspeakable acts of cruelty committed in the name of religion, and the bible...


Jesus = the tree of life

Michael111 Apparently, you are disgruntled by some of the events in the Bible. I'm surprised you aren't mad at God.

May I suggest you read "The Plot"? It may help clear some things up.

Freak
February 4th, 2004, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by Knight

:ha: another enyartian cult member. ;) :think:

Jerry Shugart
February 4th, 2004, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by freelight
Adam & Eve did partake of the tree of knowledge.....and since you came from Adam......you too have this 'knowledge of good and evil' - you have a conscience - a faculty of discernment.
freelight,

I agree with you.The first two dispensations are "Innocence" and "Conscience" (Moral Responsibility).

Man was created in innocence and placed in a perfect environment.He did not know good from evil,simply because he knew only good.He had no desire or inclination to disobey God in any way.

The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" stood as a symbol of the distinction between God and man,a constant reminder that He was the creator and man the creature,and that manīs happiness depended on a recognition of this relationship.Despite this Adam went his own way.He was not compelled to sin but,tempted by Satan,he chose to disobey God.Eve was deceived but Adam transgressed deliberately (1Tim. 7:14).All was suddenly changed as a result of this rebellion against Godīs chosen way to govern His creatures.After the fall we read that Adam “begat a son of his own likeness,after his image”(Gen.1:26;5:3).

The dispensation of Innocence ended in manīs expulsion from Eden (Gen.3:24).It closed with man rebelling against his Creator and instead of remaining in a state of "innocence" he now had the "knowledge of good and evil" written in His heart:

"Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness"(Ro.2:15).

It is in this way that death came upon all men.The Lord will not impute sin when there is no law (Ro.5:13),but as soon as Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil man has God's law written in their hearts,and the conscience bears witness to that law.They are now without excuse,and the Lord will now impute sin to the sinner because he does have a knowledge of God's law.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"(Ro.5:12).

In His grace,--Jerry

Clete
February 5th, 2004, 12:35 PM
Jerry,

I have wanted to write a post showing the parallel between the Law and the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. But it is somewhat of a complex issue and I have very limited time and haven't been able to get it done.
You seem more than qualified for such a task and if my guess is right you are aware of the connection between the two. If you have the time and are inclined to do so, I would delight in reading a post from you on the subject.
If not, I will get around to it myself, I'm just not sure when!

God Bless!

Resting in Him,
Clete

freelight
February 5th, 2004, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

freelight,

I agree with you.The first two dispensations are "Innocence" and "Conscience" (Moral Responsibility).

Man was created in innocence and placed in a perfect environment.He did not know good from evil,simply because he knew only good.He had no desire or inclination to disobey God in any way.

The "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" stood as a symbol of the distinction between God and man,a constant reminder that He was the creator and man the creature,and that manīs happiness depended on a recognition of this relationship.Despite this Adam went his own way.He was not compelled to sin but,tempted by Satan,he chose to disobey God.Eve was deceived but Adam transgressed deliberately (1Tim. 7:14).All was suddenly changed as a result of this rebellion against Godīs chosen way to govern His creatures.After the fall we read that Adam “begat a son of his own likeness,after his image”(Gen.1:26;5:3).

The dispensation of Innocence ended in manīs expulsion from Eden (Gen.3:24).It closed with man rebelling against his Creator and instead of remaining in a state of "innocence" he now had the "knowledge of good and evil" written in His heart:

"Who shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness"(Ro.2:15).

It is in this way that death came upon all men.The Lord will not impute sin when there is no law (Ro.5:13),but as soon as Adam ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil man has God's law written in their hearts,and the conscience bears witness to that law.They are now without excuse,and the Lord will now impute sin to the sinner because he does have a knowledge of God's law.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"(Ro.5:12).

In His grace,--Jerry


)========== Hi Jerry,..............it would appear that the tree of knowledge was a necessary part of the divine plan....in mans eternal evolution. If the dynamic of conscience in the inner man can be represented by the tree of knowledge....then how could man evolve, experience, 'know', recognize the relativities, qualities of good and evil in a conscious way??? It would seem appropriate that man have a consciousness which can re-cognize certain values relative the use of he free will choices. Sin itself appears to be part of mans evolutional process...whereby he must experience all the dynamics of law, conscience, mind and spirit....in his ascension and progression towards the perfection of Love....whereby he can become so one with God...that his entire being is goverened thereby.....thus fulfilling the Law in every aspect. So sin now in man is an inevitable feature/proclivity potential relative to his free will liberties. While man lives out the dynamics of sin in his evolutional process....the tree of Life is afforded him when he is ready by grace and certain acheivements to partake of its quickening. The tree is guarded by the Cherubim......but access is allowed for those who qualify in right timing and the grace of God......thru the Christ/Light. In this sense....'gnosis' is part of mans tools to enable him towards enlightenment. Nevertheless....this gnosis will be the preeminence within the soul when it attains its prefection in the Light...when the soul shall know the fullness of God as its all in all. Whether we will still be able to distinguish or know evil in any way - who can say? Attaining a state where there is no more sin or death...would imply that we are so wholly sancitifed in holy spirit and Love that it is impossible for us to no longer sin. In the meantime.....gnosis in many dimensions is ours and can be ours in a beneficial sense...and the inner law of the conscience more or less is active within. It may appear that the tree of knowledge and Life....are aspects within the psyche of man...as the garden represents mans soul. My previous allegories may apply to this view.



paul

geralduk
February 6th, 2004, 06:21 AM
Again the 'arguments' have an explicit implication that it was NESCERSARY that they eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
and was therefore Gods will!

This was not nor CANNOT be the case.
Seeing that He had ALREADY told them HIS will.

NOR did they need to eat of it to "know good and evil"
For God had ALREADY told them what was GOOD AND WHAT WAS EVIL.

It is when man REJECTS the LIVELY Word of God as to what is good and what is evil and does that "which is RIGHT in his OWN EYES" that he came and STILL comes to greif.
REPENT then is where man WILLINGLY rejects HIS OWN ideas about what is good and what is evil and accepts GODS veiw on the matter.

"MY PEOPLE perish FOR THEY LACK VISION for they have REJECTED KNOWLEDGE"

Clete
February 6th, 2004, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by geralduk

Again the 'arguments' have an explicit implication that it was NESCERSARY that they eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
and was therefore Gods will!

This was not nor CANNOT be the case.
Seeing that He had ALREADY told them HIS will.

NOR did they need to eat of it to "know good and evil"
For God had ALREADY told them what was GOOD AND WHAT WAS EVIL.

Quite right! :up:
The Tree was put in the midst of the garden as an alternative to God. In other words, they could have learned all there was to know about good and evil from living a relationship with God but they chose instead to take a short cut and ate of the Tree.
Today we are faced with a similar choice. We can choose to live in a relationship with the living God and thereby be righteous or we can set up a list of rules that gives an appearance of righteousness but is of no value against the flesh.

Resting in Him,
Clete

geralduk
February 7th, 2004, 06:00 AM
I cannot say it was an 'alternative' to God.
Bare with me if I seem to be picknicking with your words.
and perchance what you have in mind is not fully expresed by your words.
But where all christians are to come "to a unity of the faith"
It is clear then we must all come to a UNITY OF UNDERSTANDING!
For faith comes by hearing and that by UNDERSTANDING the Word of God.
Therefore to have that UNITY of faith we must of nescesaty have a unity of understanding.
and that which Gods supplies.
So my 'obejections' to that phrase is NOT personal in any way directed.
But more for a clarity of understanding.
Both of scripture and each other in Christ.

sO LET US BE AS SURGEONS if you will with the the patient on the table.
Not as if we care not about the life of the 'patient' but that we seek its 'FULL RECOVERY'
AND SO are carefull in 'all' things.
as far as we are able and as God allows.


you say it is an 'alternative' to God.
but how can this be seeign that God "planted it"
and it was good.
In that it was EVIL to eat thereof it WAS 'alternative' to that which was GOOD TO EAT.
Notwithastanding though.
Even as ELECTRICITY is GOOD when the principles and honoured but is fatal when they are not.
The knowledge of good and evil was 'GOOD' to have.
seeing that there WAS evil IN THE WORLD.

God will was then to OVERCOME evil with that which was good.
overcome the temptations of the flesh and in due time recive eternal life.
In that case the lord WAS tempted in all things as we are.
but where as they failed in paradise He conquered in a wilderness.
But in BOTH they were given the WORD of God.
By which, when tempted TO DO WHAT WAS RIGHT IN THIER OWN EYES they were to OVERCOME HIM WHO TEMPTED THEM.and do that which was "written"

and where as they PERISHED JESUS lived.
and it could be argued'
That even as they; if they had not fallen would not have died.
So if Christ had "not laid down His life...." He would NEVER had died also.
For He was the second and last Adam.

and so in that perfection which in all things He was; He who would have LIVED FOREVER having no sin or sinning having laid down His life"that He might take it up again" inherited eternal life.
In conformity with that ETERNAL WILL of the FATHER.
and by the which will we who were once afar off have been brought nigh by the blood of His cross and in WHOM we are reconciled to His glory forever.
and that which was "lost" HAS BEEN FOUND and that which was perodained from before the foundations of the world has through Him who loved us been through Him entered into.
and that will of God so ordained and which pleases Him is now worked out in and through us because of Him who is our life.
For He "in whom was life" died that qwe through Him might have LIFE and life more abundantly.
and having given us LIFE through His Son has BLESSED US . and told us to go into all the world and preach the gospel.

MichaelEden
February 9th, 2004, 02:43 AM
Any thing that contains evil, the knowledge of evil, or the demonstration of evil...

IS EVIL.

the bible is contaminated by the knowledge of evil.

it is unclean.

Do not touch. Do not taste. Do not partake of it.

It is not good for wisdom... it is a trick.



Jesus = the tree of life

With Love,

Michael111

geralduk
February 9th, 2004, 05:20 AM
Originally posted by MichaelEden

Any thing that contains evil, the knowledge of evil, or the demonstration of evil...

IS EVIL.

the bible is contaminated by the knowledge of evil.

it is unclean.

Do not touch. Do not taste. Do not partake of it.

It is not good for wisdom... it is a trick.



Jesus = the tree of life

With Love,

Michael111

A 'knowledge' of evil comes in TWO ways.

Taking for example a bottle of poison.
The KNOWLEDGE of what it contains is in itself not evil but KEEPS you from the EVIL that would come from drinking it.
By drinking it.You have not only the knowledge of it as it is but also a 'knowledge' of the very evil of it and die.

God not wishing ".....that ANY SHOULD PERISH.........." gave them the KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH that it was EVIL to eat "thereof"
That in it selF was NOT evil to do but GOOD seeign that by THAT knwledge and the keepign of it they LIVED!
But when they rejected the knowldege of God as top waht was GOOD and waht was EVIL and chose that which was 'good' in their own eyes they by eating it came into BONDAGE because God gave them NO LIBERTY to eat it and became SUBJECT to DEATH because that is the PENALTY for doing evil.
So when they ate of that tree; they by so doing, found it TRUE what God had said and WAS evil TO EAT THEREOF but THAT knowldge now brought them DEATH.
and the WORD which was rejected which gave them LIFE was LOST.

and so GOD "so loved the World that He gave His only begotten SON(THE WORD) that who soever believeth on HIM should NOT PERISH but have everlasting LIFE!

God HAS NOT CHANGED and He is the SAME yesterday today and forever.
What he was He is and what He is HE SHALL EVER BE.
"HIS WAY'S" never change either.
and those who STILL do that which is right ion thier own eyes(as with CAINE) and seek to establish thier own rightousness.
and would have God after THIER image perish even as they did.
But God is not willing that ANy should ;perish buit that all should come to a knowledge of the truth"
For Jesus said "the devil has come to steal to kill and to destroy but I have come that you might have LIFE and LIFE more abundantly"
Therefore they who listen to the 'serpents' words and believe the WRONG MESSAGE will do that which is right in thier own eyes even as they did in thiers.
But if they who receive My words Jesus said receive Him who sent Me"
God then STILL gives us if we would receive it the "knowledge of good and evil" by Him who is the WORD "that procedeth out of His mouth"
But if we reject His WORD AND the SPIRIT by which it comes then we will NOT be able to discern TRULY truth from ERROR.
For it is HE who LEADS US into all truth and when we know the truth the truth will make us free.
Where once we were bound .
Therefore to sugest that we throw away the scriptures because it gives a knowledge of good and evil SO THAT WE MIGHT RECOGNISE IT is folly.
For was it not God who told then to WRITE down all these things that i have spoken unto you that you might teach your children?
and what did the LORD do when faced with the SAME DECEIVER as the FIRST Adam who with the SAME subtle use of the WORD sought to decive Him also?
Refer him to that which was WRITTEN and SPOKEN of by GOD.
IF we do NOT have that which is WRITTEN or would foolishely THROW AWAY that which God has given(WAKE UP UK!) then we have NO SOUND FOUNDATION FOR OUR knowledge of GOD and all that which is GOOD not for that matter of the DEVIL and all that which is EVIL.
AND WHERE AS as in the beginning we need the KNOWLEDGE OF GOD so that we might WALK with Him in the "cool of the evening"
By the SAME knolwedge of scripture we may recognise THAT which is NOT of God and therefore EVIL and avoid or overcome IT WITH THAT WHICH IS GOOD.

Even as GOD so willed even in the beginning.

MichaelEden
February 12th, 2004, 01:53 AM
The Tree of Life = Jesus Christ

Love. Understanding. Tolerance. Acceptance.

Peace. Unity. Respect. Freedom. Unspeakable Joy.

Eat freely from this tree and be saved.

Love,

Michael111

geralduk
February 12th, 2004, 05:01 AM
Then in truth your 'jesus' is NOT the Jesus who was born in a manger suffered under pontios pilate died for the sins of the world and was bureied and rose on the third day and is now seated on the right hand of the FATHER .
For THAT Jesus held to ALL that was WRITTEN and SAID so to MEN and to DEVILS.
IF THEN you say that you folow Jesus BUT DO NOT DO what HE did then in truth it is NOT HIM you are folowing but the vain imaginations of your own heart and are decived by the same one who decived EVE who ALSO was encouraged to CAST AWAY the WORD of God.

MichaelEden
February 13th, 2004, 05:52 PM
love.
love.
love.

One Life. One Love. We Are One World Together.

Michael111

MichaelEden
February 15th, 2004, 11:07 PM
Happy (belated) Valentine's Day to everyone here at TheologyOnline forums


Love,

Michael111

Clete
February 16th, 2004, 07:47 AM
Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He (Jesus) expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself.

Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while He opened to us the scriptures?

Luk 24:45 Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Act 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, [and] mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

Act 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, [and that] publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2Pe 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

geralduk
February 16th, 2004, 09:37 AM
Originally posted by MichaelEden

love.
love.
love.

One Life. One Love. We Are One World Together.

Michael111

What 'LOVE' are we talking about ?
and what 'WORLD' are we talking about?

For "if ye LOVE the WORLD then the LOVE of the FATHER is NOT IN YOU"!

The 'love' of the wicked is cruel"
He said it not because he 'LOVED' the poor but because he carried the bag"
The love of money is the ROOT of ALL evil"

"Where you treasure is (what you love?) there will be your heart also"
if you love your mother and father MORE than Me........
Love not the world not the things........


So I personaly am NOT one with the world rather i have been TRANSLATED from THIS world "that lieth in the hands of the wicked one"
and been translated into the NEXT one.
and am no longer a citezen of THIS world BUT OF THAT WHICH IS TO COME.

So be carefull then .
WHO and WHAT you love!

MichaelEden
February 19th, 2004, 04:05 PM
A book is not 'Holy'

If it contains the knowledge of evil, Satan, the devil, demons, dark prophecy, suffering, death, curses, superstitious numbers, conspiracy, the wholesale slaughter of innocent people, rituals involving the blood of murdered animals...

I say thank you Jesus for opening my eyes

the bible = the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

poison fruit

Love to all as we overcome the darkness together, and reach for the tree of life - Jesus Christ

Michael111

Clete
February 19th, 2004, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by MichaelEden

A book is not 'Holy'

If it contains the knowledge of evil, Satan, the devil, demons, dark prophecy, suffering, death, curses, superstitious numbers, conspiracy, the wholesale slaughter of innocent people, rituals involving the blood of murdered animals...

I say thank you Jesus for opening my eyes

the bible = the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

poison fruit

Love to all as we overcome the darkness together, and reach for the tree of life - Jesus Christ

Michael111

Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?

Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, He (Jesus) expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning Himself.

Luk 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while He opened to us the scriptures?

Luk 24:45 Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

Act 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, [and] mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

Act 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, [and that] publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2Pe 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Resting in Him,
Clete

MichaelEden
March 1st, 2004, 04:17 PM
the bible = the tree of the knowledge of good and evil

Jesus Christ = the tree of life

Michael111

Clete
March 1st, 2004, 05:00 PM
Michael,


Using drugs is a sin!

LightSon
March 5th, 2004, 11:08 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Michael,


Using drugs is a sin!

What about that? Is it a sin to take a Tylenol? IBprophen?

Is it a sin to take codene if prescribed by a doctor? Or is it only a sin if we take a drug to "enjoy it".

What if I am in the hospital and they give me morphine. Is it a sin if I enjoy it?

Is it a sin to drink alcohol (a drug)?

IF pot were legal, would it be a sin to smoke a joint in moderation?

Lots of boundaries to discuss. Just curious on y'alls views.

Clete
March 5th, 2004, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by LightSon

What about that? Is it a sin to take a Tylenol? IBprophen?

Is it a sin to take codene if prescribed by a doctor? Or is it only a sin if we take a drug to "enjoy it".

What if I am in the hospital and they give me morphine. Is it a sin if I enjoy it?

Is it a sin to drink alcohol (a drug)?

IF pot were legal, would it be a sin to smoke a joint in moderation?

Lots of boundaries to discuss. Just curious on y'alls views.
Intentionally getting intoxicated by whatever means for a nonmedical reason is not only a sin but a crime.

MichaelEden
March 26th, 2004, 04:04 PM
If you want the answer...

Ask Jesus.

He will answer. He hears. He cares.

He blesses, protects, guides, and corrects...

He writes His true commandments on one's heart. He communicates His true sayings.

A personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

Reach for the tree of life.



With blessings of love, peace, and understanding,

Michael111

Crow
March 26th, 2004, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by LightSon

What about that? Is it a sin to take a Tylenol? IBprophen?

Is it a sin to take codene if prescribed by a doctor? Or is it only a sin if we take a drug to "enjoy it".

What if I am in the hospital and they give me morphine. Is it a sin if I enjoy it?

Is it a sin to drink alcohol (a drug)?

IF pot were legal, would it be a sin to smoke a joint in moderation?

Lots of boundaries to discuss. Just curious on y'alls views.

As far as medical use of drugs goes, I can't see anything that could be construed as sinful in aleviating pain, treating inflammation, or killing off microbes.

Alcohol was consumed in Biblical times. There are warnings against drunkeness, but not against all consumption. Paul encourages Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach's sake. It was consumed at meals and social occasions.

I think intent has a lot to do with it. If drugs are taken for medicinal purposes, there's nothing wrong with them at all. I think Christians should not use drugs to pharmacologically entertain themselves, nor should they be drunks.

Clete
March 26th, 2004, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by Crow

As far as medical use of drugs goes, I can't see anything that could be construed as sinful in aleviating pain, treating inflammation, or killing off microbes.

Alcohol was consumed in Biblical times. There are warnings against drunkeness, but not against all consumption. Paul encourages Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach's sake. It was consumed at meals and social occasions.

I think intent has a lot to do with it. If drugs are taken for medicinal purposes, there's nothing wrong with them at all. I think Christians should not use drugs to pharmacologically entertain themselves, nor should they be drunks.

Wouldn't you agree that illicit intoxication is not simply sinful but criminal?

I know that this question is off topic for this thread, but come on, have you read this thread? :kookoo:

LightSon
March 29th, 2004, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Wouldn't you agree that illicit intoxication is not simply sinful but criminal?

I know that this question is off topic for this thread, but come on, have you read this thread? :kookoo:

Most drugs which would be normally used for recreational purposes are probably illegal - the obvious exception being alcohol.

There seems to be a consensus that drinking to excess is sinful. This suggests that a drink or 2 would be okay. What about 3 drinks? What if I have 3 or 4 drinks to "catch a buzz"? Is that on the moral side of being drunk? Do Christians have "liberty" to have a few drinks?

Suppose that we lived in a country where marijuana was legal. In other words, suppose that there are no laws against pot. In this particular case, would it be a sin to smoke a joint? In other words, if it is not a sin to feel a buzz from a beer or 2, perhaps it is not a sin to smoke pot in moderation.

Clete
March 30th, 2004, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by LightSon

Most drugs which would be normally used for recreational purposes are probably illegal - the obvious exception being alcohol.

There seems to be a consensus that drinking to excess is sinful. This suggests that a drink or 2 would be okay. What about 3 drinks? What if I have 3 or 4 drinks to "catch a buzz"? Is that on the moral side of being drunk? Do Christians have "liberty" to have a few drinks?

Suppose that we lived in a country where marijuana was legal. In other words, suppose that there are no laws against pot. In this particular case, would it be a sin to smoke a joint? In other words, if it is not a sin to feel a buzz from a beer or 2, perhaps it is not a sin to smoke pot in moderation.

It does not profit us to make arbitrary rules concerning the exact number of drinks or the precise means by which one becomes drunk.
Drinking or smoking, or shooting a chemical into your vain are all things that can be done without sin. But if you get drunk or high for a non-medically related reason then you have sinned (period).

Resting in Him,
Clete

Lovejoy
March 30th, 2004, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

It does not profit us to make arbitrary rules concerning the exact number of drinks or the precise means by which one becomes drunk.
Drinking or smoking, or shooting a chemical into your vain are all things that can be done without sin. But if you get drunk or high for a non-medically related reason then you have sinned (period).

Resting in Him,
Clete

I tend toward believing that we are slave to anything that masters us. I believe being slave to anything of this world means some part of you is not in Christ. If this is not sin, it is at the least not profitable. I know that the few times I have been buzzed since being a Christian, I have not been in Christ. Recreational drug or alcohol use in not a useful Christian liberty, and it would take a mighty Christian conscience to handle it well.

Duder
March 30th, 2004, 11:07 PM
Intentionally getting intoxicated by whatever means for a nonmedical reason is not only a sin but a crime.

Ah, the holy stormtrooper has weighed in! Is recreational drug use a sin?

There was an old farmer who drank some of the family vintage and passed out naked in his quarters. The old man's son thought this was a sin and a crime, and he reported it to his brothers.

Who was the sinner - the old farmer or the son who reported him?

See Genesis 9:20-27.

billwald
March 30th, 2004, 11:14 PM
Jesus didn't manufacture alcohol at Cana to cure an infection.

Second, there are two kinds of pain: physical and psychological.

Clete
March 31st, 2004, 06:55 AM
Originally posted by Duder
Is recreational drug use a sin?
Getting high is a sin, yes.


There was an old farmer who drank some of the family vintage and passed out naked in his quarters. The old man's son thought this was a sin and a crime, and he reported it to his brothers.

Who was the sinner - the old farmer or the son who reported him?

See Genesis 9:20-27.

In this case both!
Noah for having gotten drunk and Canaan for having slept with his mother or at minimum lusted after her.

And by the way, thanks for spreading the message about how filthy homos are, every where you go! If I had a t-shirt that said what your signature says, I would wear to the mall or something! Keep up the good work! :thumb:


Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
March 31st, 2004, 06:57 AM
Originally posted by billwald

Jesus didn't manufacture alcohol at Cana to cure an infection.[quote]
Quite right!

[quote]Second, there are two kinds of pain: physical and psychological.
So what's your point? That it's okay to drown our sorrows in a bottle, or what?

Crow
March 31st, 2004, 07:06 AM
Originally posted by billwald

Jesus didn't manufacture alcohol at Cana to cure an infection.

Second, there are two kinds of pain: physical and psychological.

As nearly as I know, Jesus made wine to drink at a wedding. Nothing wrong with drinking wine---being a drunk, on the other hand, isn't looked upon highly in the Scriptures.

2 kinds of pain. Self-medication with illegal drugs for either purpose is immoral and criminal.

LightSon
March 31st, 2004, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
Drinking or smoking, or shooting a chemical into your vain are all things that can be done without sin. But if you get drunk or high for a non-medically related reason then you have sinned (period).

This is the traditional Christian position. It also happens to resonate with my conscience, so cannot argue against it.



Originally posted by Lovejoy

I tend toward believing that we are slave to anything that masters us. I believe being slave to anything of this world means some part of you is not in Christ. If this is not sin, it is at the least not profitable. I know that the few times I have been buzzed since being a Christian, I have not been in Christ. Recreational drug or alcohol use in not a useful Christian liberty, and it would take a mighty Christian conscience to handle it well.
Thanks for your balanced words. Some may challenge me for even asking such questions.

You said that, "Recreational drug or alcohol use in not a useful Christian liberty...." This implies that such activities fall within the realm of "liberty."

There are many things I do which are "not useful." I watch too much TV. I play with my dog. I spend too much time on TOL. I eat cheesecake. I could loose all those not-too-useful liberties and be all the farther ahead.

As a recovering addict on many fronts, there are times when I feel "tempted". It may be late at night - the family is fast asleep and I think to myself, "man, a joint would be really mellow right about now."

Are these the musings of a tortured person? I think so. My interest (statement) is "an undivided heart." I've been buzzed, and it invariably piques my conscience - it does make me feel like a traitor to Christ. But I hear Christians talking about beer drinking etc. and find myself being envious. How is it they have "liberty" to catch their beer buzz? Why shouldn't I have a similar liberty?

So I wonder sometimes. My wonderings will get me into trouble, because there are more insidious things to be enslaved to than beer or pot. They are gateway drugs, especially for those who have been through the gate before.

This is my way of confessing that the strait and narrow can be a difficult path to walk. I sometimes feel a pull off the road. I have ran off the road before and it isn't pretty.

Any words of wisdom or chastisement will be accepted. Do any other Christians have these kinds of temptations?

Duder
March 31st, 2004, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Duder:

Is recreational drug use a sin?

Originally posted by Clete:

Getting high is a sin, yes.

Originally posted by Duder:

There was an old farmer who drank some of the family vintage and passed out naked in his quarters. The old man's son thought this was a sin and a crime, and he reported it to his brothers.

Who was the sinner - the old farmer or the son who reported him?

See Genesis 9:20-27.

Origonally posted by Clete:

In this case both!
Noah for having gotten drunk and Canaan for having slept with his mother or at minimum lusted after her.

I find no reference, neither explicit nor implied, to Ham's mother in this incident. Ham saw Noah passed out drunk, and then went to his brothers to point out Noah's "depravity" to them. He felt that there was something perverted about Noah's condition, and he loudly condemned it, presumably with much finger-pointing, mocking, and personal enjoyment of the whole situation. I am remided of a poster who said "I will point my finger and laugh in your face as God throws your filthy perverted soull into hell."

In contrast to Ham's infantile behavior, his brothers went and covered Noah with respect.

There is no indication in the story that Noah sinned. Ham the finger-pointer, however, was roundly condemned.

Clete
March 31st, 2004, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Duder

I find no reference, neither explicit nor implied, to Ham's mother in this incident. Ham saw Noah passed out drunk, and then went to his brothers to point out Noah's "depravity" to them. He felt that there was something perverted about Noah's condition, and he loudly condemned it, presumably with much finger-pointing, mocking, and personal enjoyment of the whole situation. I am remided of a poster who said "I will point my finger and laugh in your face as God throws your filthy perverted soull into hell."

In contrast to Ham's infantile behavior, his brothers went and covered Noah with respect.

There is no indication in the story that Noah sinned. Ham the finger-pointer, however, was roundly condemned.

Lev 20:11 And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

Duder
March 31st, 2004, 02:09 PM
I was referring to the incident discussed in Genesis chapter 9, not to a moral statement found in Leviticus which has nothing at all to do with drug use.