PDA

View Full Version : Freak challenges "The Plot" over miracles



Pages : 1 2 [3]

Freak
February 12th, 2004, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by freelight

Clete continues to cry, whine, babble, get disgruntled and demand for evidence of miracles.....but will not take the scriptures into account and put his faith in God for all things, including the miraculous (whatever faith shall afford - for the truth of Jesus teaching remains - 'let it be according to your faith') - Jesus taught faith could move mountains, transform events - even if just the size of a mustard seed - but Cletes faith may not even be found under a microscope....until he sees 'proof'. tsk tsk tsk :rolleyes: You got it!


We walk by faith not by sight! Faith that demands to see physical proof first....IS NOT FAITH! I think Clete needs to discover what the dynamics of faith include.....and that this faith Jesus taught has within it great, if not divine power. Yep.


Who will Clete believe? Bob or Jesus :confused: Good question. But it appears he has chosen plot materials over Scripture. That is sad and pitiful. :down:

drbrumley
February 12th, 2004, 05:58 PM
okay i will prove i am not freak (no offense freak) by apologizing and letting you know that my intent wasnt to piss you off.

Nope, this is definitely not Freak!

theo_victis
February 12th, 2004, 10:50 PM
"Who will Clete believe? Bob or Jesus"

Jesusbobman.... a combo of both.

Clete
February 13th, 2004, 07:49 AM
Theo,

I accept your apology and offer one myself. I should not have allowed myself to get as angry as I did and I certainly should not have allowed it to spill over onto this board. You didn't deserve the brow beating I gave you anyway. I have become increasingly frustrated with Freakís dishonest handling of this issue and your post was the straw the broke the camels back. I ask for your forgiveness.

It has become increasingly clear that this debate is getting nowhere and is in fact becoming counter productive. I am, therefore, going to let this issue drop for now.
There may be a hand full of questions and assorted loose ends that some of you would like for me to address, if so just say so and I'll give a response.

There is one issue in particular that I have left unattended...

Theo, your web site doesn't give any EVIDENCE! I'm sure it gives plenty of anecdotal personal testimonies but that is not verifiable evidence. I did notice, by the way, that in the pictures sections of the site, all of the before and after pictures that could have documented to some degree the miracles that happened over there were all very conspicuously absent! What's up with that? :think:


Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

Freak
February 13th, 2004, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

There may be a hand full of questions and assorted loose ends that some of you would like for me to address, if so just say so and I'll give a response. *sigh* Clete, your refusal to deal with the Scriptural record speaks volumes to your inability to deal with the truth. But, I'll try again to get you focused on truth.


There is one issue in particular that I have left unattended...

Actually you have left alot unattended, namely...

But, to give him the benefit of the doubt let's examine the Biblical foundations for why we believe miracles are for today...

First of all, we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:7

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

1 Corinthians 14:26

What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

To equip people to share the gospel.

Matthew 10:19,20

But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Luke 4:18

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,"

1 Corinthians 2:13

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

To show God's compassion and concern for His people.

Matthew 14:13-14

When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. 14When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

Matthew 20:29-34

As Jesus and his disciples were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed him. Two blind men were sitting by the roadside, and when they heard that Jesus was going by, they shouted, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
The crowd rebuked them and told them to be quiet, but they shouted all the louder, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
Jesus stopped and called them. "What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
"Lord," they answered, "we want our sight."
Jesus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed him.

Mark 1:40-42

A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, "If you are willing, you can make me clean."
Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cured.

Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.

In fact we are told the gift of miracles is given to the Body...

Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Secondly, at least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Thirdly, God's Word tells us that miracles have a divine purpose that God promises will be carried out:

...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

God says He uses miracles to testify, to confirm of His goodness, His glory, His salvation. Who are you to tell us God doesn't have a purpose for miracles when in fact He does? If He gave His Body the gift of miracles, which He has, then it is safe to say He still performs miracles. This despite what you personally believe.

Clete, Theo, Godrulz, and myself have all shared (along with several other posters) our personal encounters with miracles. I have witnessed hundreds of miracles. Hundreds of people being healed and delivered from demons. You reject my testimony, you reject theo's and you reject Godrulz's. So, we now turn to the Biblical record which is clearly in our favor. Now, we ask you to deal with the reality of God's Word on this subject...

theo_victis
February 13th, 2004, 05:35 PM
Clete-

apology accepted..... i guess i understand to a degree. I have done the same thing before.

okay...

a quote from you-

"I did notice, by the way, that in the pictures sections of the site, all of the before and after pictures that could have documented to some degree the miracles that happened over there were all very conspicuously absent! What's up with that?"

There are two reasons:

1. we didnt have cameras every where we went. We often left them in our mission home because we would have a lot of other stuff to carry.

2. I dont think we ever thought that we would need to ever prove the miracles we saw... or atleast i didnt. Plus that wasnt all of our pictures. But i doubt that any of my teammates would have taken a picture of any the miracles we saw like before and after photos. Because we didnt know that there would be a miracle in the first place so before and after pictures werent thought of....

i know this isnt what you wanted to hear though but thats the truth.



another qoute from you:

"Theo, your web site doesn't give any EVIDENCE! I'm sure it gives plenty of anecdotal personal testimonies but that is not verifiable evidence."

i never said that iit was solid proof but the best evidence i had. That was what you asked for any ways... names, places, other witnesses. Something like that. I dont have pics of those though. But dont you think that it strengthens what i claimed by having others back me up??????

thanks... and the debate isnt over until you change your mind.

theo_victis
February 13th, 2004, 05:37 PM
"Nope, this is definitely not Freak! "




thanks.......




Everybody probably wants evidence though, you know like birthcertificates, dna samples, and fingerprints. lol

Just kidding....

theo_victis
February 13th, 2004, 05:39 PM
"Theo, Godrulz, and myself have all shared (along with several other posters) our personal encounters with miracles. I have witnessed hundreds of miracles. Hundreds of people being healed and delivered from demons. You reject my testimony, you reject theo's and you reject Godrulz's. So, we now turn to the Biblical record which is clearly in our favor. Now, we ask you to deal with the reality of God's Word on this subject... "


amen brother!

Clete
February 14th, 2004, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by theo_victis
Something like that. I donít have pics of those though. But donít you think that it strengthens what I claimed by having others back me up??????

Not with out solid independent verifiable evidence. Testimonies from people who are already convinced isn't evidence of anything except that they believe.
Not that I'm trying to be insulting, its just that people are so easily tricked! For example, there are those little bracelets that have two different metals in them that are supposed to remove "negative ions" or something like that from your body when the two "specially designed" ends of the bracelet are positioned correctly on the wrist. MILLIONS of poor saps have spent their hard earned money on this fraudulent product and most of them would swear on a stack of Bibles that it helps them. The fact is that the bracelet itself does absolutely nothing! It is their belief that that it helps that causes them to think that it actually does. The bracelet could just as easily be made of fossilized dog poo and their experience would be the same.
The point is the despite the anecdotal testimony of hundreds of individuals, the fact still remains that when tested (double blind scientific testing) it has been shown over and over again that nothing is really happening, it all in their heads.
Now I know that this idea will be insulting to you but I can't help that. Sometimes the truth just has to be put out there and the chips allowed to fall where they may. The fact is that the absence of photographic evidence of the miracles you believe you've witnessed is more than coincidental, it is universally the case. There is not even one single photograph in existence that documents any physical miracles. You don't have any because there aren't any to have!
If I am wrong, show me. But I'll bet you can't

By the way, you might find the book Charismatic Chaos (http://store.yahoo.com/grace-to-you/charchaos.html) by John MacArthur interesting. It addresses this issue of group psychology in this specific context.


Resting in Him,
Clete

Freak
February 14th, 2004, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Sometimes the truth just has to be put out there and the chips allowed to fall where they may. The fact is that the absence of photographic evidence of the miracles you believe you've witnessed is more than coincidental, it is universally the case. There are quite a few photographic materials one can present as evidence. But, we are beyound that at this point. You simply reject everything we present, because of your unholy bias, so that is why the decision was made to get you focused on the truth--God's Word and the testimony of Jesus Christ regarding this topic. Let's deal with the truth of the biblical record. What do you say?


There is not even one single photograph in existence that documents any physical miracles. Fallacy. But if you'd like to be in darkness then that is your decision. You're a human with free will. There are many evidences for physical miracles namely the biblical record.


You don't have any because there aren't any to have!
If I am wrong, show me. But I'll bet you can't :crackup: What a joke! You're still on this evidence trip. We have elevated this issue to the evidence as found in the biblical record which supercedes all the other evidences out there. Your pathetic responses to God's Word regarding this issue is telling. You can't respond because God's Word is so clear in favor of our position that you simply resort to a smoking screen--your call for physical evidence.

1Way
February 14th, 2004, 03:21 PM
Drbrumley Ė You said
1Way,

I have been meaning to ask you. I notice you live in Indiana. Is your name Dustin or AOL handle Dustin by chance? I met a man on AOL sometime ago and we talked alittle and he knew Bob when Bob did his show from Indiana. Just curious.

In Christ,
DRBrumley Nope, I am not he, and I donít know any Dustin. Sorry for taking so long to get back with you. Bobís shows were a blast. It was so bizarre to watch the liberals and hypocrites and such call in and display the gross national product. Sometimes the look on Bobís face was just priceless as heíd encounter the wildest most contradictory and inane comments. I always thought that Bob could have used more special effects incorporated into his shows, live oneís like a foot pedal operation or something like that for the old ďboingĒ ďbounceĒ ďsurpriseĒ sound, a ďkoo kooĒ clock sound, a just drifting off into sleep ďsnoringĒ sound, a door shutting or slamming sound, etc. and perhaps some video snippets too, maybe some of them silent like they are showing what is going on in the mind of Bob as he hears this kind of ďstuffĒ.

He wasnít that much of a shock jock, the call in audience was the shock element. Harshly and astutely confronting and condemning wickedness and false teachings is a somewhat ďin your faceĒ disturbing event. So there was often a shock value especially for those who are nicer and smarter than God. But to me, it was just refreshing to see someone on the ďtubeĒ who actually stood up for truth and righteousness and without promoting so much false and contradictory nonsense.

theo_victis
February 14th, 2004, 08:27 PM
Clete-

okay, now i just think your dumb.

I dont even care if you believe in miracles anymore.

Dont you know that the United States Gov. recognizes testimonies in a court of law??????

i know that doesnt satisfy you but.......nothing seems to.

Freak
February 14th, 2004, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by 1Way
...and perhaps some video snippets too, maybe some of them silent like they are showing what is going on in the mind of Bob as He hears this kind of ďstuffĒ. Bold emphasis is mine. Do you normally captalize He when speaking of Bob. Figures.


So there was often a shock value especially for those who are nicer and smarter than God. Bob Enyart jr in the making. :rolleyes:

1Way
February 14th, 2004, 10:20 PM
Freak = swallow a camel and strain out a nat. :rolleyes:

Freak
February 14th, 2004, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by 1Way

Freak = swallow a camel and strain out a nat.


Originally posted by 1Way
...and perhaps some video snippets too, maybe some of them silent like they are showing what is going on in the mind of Bob as He hears this kind of ďstuffĒ.

:darwinsm: Will you make the correction. I thought He in the middle of a sentance is reserved for Deity. Am I wrong?

1Way
February 14th, 2004, 10:27 PM
Theo_victis - Right, as though preserving a biblical standard for matters of faith is asking too much. Clete has presented his case in any way but dumb.

As to the US gov and it's courts, who cares what it recognizes? It's not a ďjustice systemĒ, it's, ďjust a systemĒ, and one that is broke all the way to its foundation.

A little less subjective personal cut downs, a little more concrete reasonable argumentation, if you will.
:D

Freak
February 14th, 2004, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by 1Way

Clete has presented his case in any way but dumb.

:crackup: :crackup: :crackup:

1Way
February 14th, 2004, 10:29 PM
:darwinsm: :rolleyes: :darwinsm: :rolleyes:

Freak
February 14th, 2004, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by 1Way

:rolleyes: That's how we feel when you elevate plot materials over Holy Scripture. :kookoo:

Clete
February 14th, 2004, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by theo_victis

Clete-

okay, now i just think your dumb.

I dont even care if you believe in miracles anymore.

Dont you know that the United States Gov. recognizes testimonies in a court of law??????

i know that doesnt satisfy you but.......nothing seems to.

Nothing short of verifiable evidence will satisfy me! Even a court of law would not except the testimony of a witness who's testimony was completely unsubstantiated by any corroborating evidence whatsoever! Do you really think that a judge would even allow a case to go to court based on the flimsy evidence that you and Freak have presented on this thread? Give me a break? All I've asked for is a single piece of verifiable evidence and you guys haven't even been able to come up with that! Never mind coming up with anything that resembles an undeniable miracle!
And that is my entire point! You guys go around making Christians look like idiots to the whole unbelieving world by calling nearly everything that happens a miracle and then when someone (especially a fellow believer) asks you to prove that what you say is happen is in fact actually happening you can't do anything but accuse them of a lack of faith while at the same time defending miracles as a great way of producing faith in people.
Well if miracles produce so much faith and I am lacking so badly in it then show me a freaken miracle then! Oh but it doesn't work that way, does it? How convenient for you! Miracles apparently only produce faith in those who already believe in them but never when people actually want to walk away with something substantive to show for having been there when one of these miracles happened. As I have asked before, what the heck good does it do anyone to experience a miracle that leaves no trace of it ever having happened in the first place?
Show me a person who was blind and can prove that they were blind and that now has 20/20 vision.
Show me a person who had one leg and can prove that they only had one leg and now has two perfectly functioning legs.
Show me a person who was deaf and can prove that they were deaf who can now hear perfectly without the use of any technology but simply with there own two ears.
Oral Robert, Benny Hinn, Reihard Bonnke, and even Paul Crouch have all claimed to have either performed or been witness to such miracles but nobody is ever able to prove it! In fact there are people who spend their full time trying to verify miracle claims and who offer large monetary rewards for presenting verifiable proof of even a single miracle and they come up empty handed! Benny Hinn even claimed to have raised some lady from the dead and eventually had to retract his claim because it was proven that he was totally making it up! Which is of course no surprise, that's the result you get every single time that you try to investigate a miracle story. If there are enough details to even launch an investigation in the first place, you always end up with the same answer. It didn't happen the way the miracle worker said it did.
You call me dumb all you want but it you that has to sleep at night wondering why nobody anywhere has ever been able to put people like me who ask hard nosed questions in our place. It is you that must wrestle with the notion that every miracle that the Creator God performs in modern times is hidden under a bushel! It's you that have no answer to questions likeÖ Why doesn't God perform public, undeniable, supernatural miracles for the world to see?
Why not during the Super Bowl or on the Senate floor for all to see and be convicted by? Why only after the offering plate has been passed?
Why?
Think about it!

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

Freak
February 14th, 2004, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Nothing short of verifiable evidence will satisfy me! God's Word isn't enough evidence for you, huh?


Do you really think that a judge would even allow a case to go to court based on the flimsy evidence that you and Freak have presented on this thread? Yep, the liberal courts would throw out the Word of God as you have done. Nicer then God aren't you.


All I've asked for is a single piece of verifiable evidence and you guys haven't even been able to come up with that!

But, to give him the benefit of the doubt let's examine the Biblical foundations for why we believe miracles are for today...

First of all, we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:7

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

1 Corinthians 14:26

What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

To equip people to share the gospel.

Matthew 10:19,20

But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Luke 4:18

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,"

1 Corinthians 2:13

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

To show God's compassion and concern for His people.

Matthew 14:13-14

When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. 14When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

Matthew 20:29-34

As Jesus and his disciples were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed him. Two blind men were sitting by the roadside, and when they heard that Jesus was going by, they shouted, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
The crowd rebuked them and told them to be quiet, but they shouted all the louder, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
Jesus stopped and called them. "What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
"Lord," they answered, "we want our sight."
Jesus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed him.

Mark 1:40-42

A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, "If you are willing, you can make me clean."
Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cured.

Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.

In fact we are told the gift of miracles is given to the Body...

Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Secondly, at least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Thirdly, God's Word tells us that miracles have a divine purpose that God promises will be carried out:

...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

God says He uses miracles to testify, to confirm of His goodness, His glory, His salvation. Who are you to tell us God doesn't have a purpose for miracles when in fact He does? If He gave His Body the gift of miracles, which He has, then it is safe to say He still performs miracles. This despite what you personally believe.


Never mind coming up with anything that resembles an undeniable miracle!

Clete, Theo, Godrulz, and myself have all shared (along with several other posters) our personal encounters with miracles. I have witnessed hundreds of miracles. Hundreds of people being healed and delivered from demons. You reject my testimony, you reject theo's and you reject Godrulz's. So, we now turn to the Biblical record which is clearly in our favor. Now, we ask you to deal with the reality of God's Word on this subject...


And that is my entire point! You guys go around making Christians look like idiots to the whole unbelieving world by calling nearly everything that happens a miracle Such the drag queen Clete has become. Instead of reacting out of uncontrolled ungodly emotion respond to objective truth as presented in Holy Scripture.


and then when someone (especially a fellow believer) asks you to prove that what you say is happen is in fact actually happening you can't do anything but accuse them of a lack of faith Where did I say that?


In fact there are people who spend their full time trying to verify miracle claims and who offer large monetary rewards for presenting verifiable proof of even a single miracle and they come up empty handed! Yes, there are atheist organizations out there hating Jesus and His resurrection. You don't have to side with the liberals, Clete.


You call me dumb all you want but it you that has to sleep at night wondering why nobody anywhere has ever been able to put people like me who ask hard nosed questions in our place. Your dumb Clete because you reject the evidence provided in Holy Scripture regarding this issue.


Why doesn't God perform public, undeniable, supernatural miracles for the world to see? He does but you have rejected it.


Why only after the offering plate has been passed?
Why? Huh? You must be watching too much television again. Get away from the television and live a real life.
:kookoo:

Freak
February 14th, 2004, 11:16 PM
1Way & Clete, allow the Scripture (the truth) and not physical evidence be your guiding light to truth. For Jesus once said, "Thy Word is truth." He didn't say, "Thy physical evidence is truth."

Do Right and Risk the Consequences. :crackup:

Servo
February 14th, 2004, 11:25 PM
:freak: =:doh:

1Way
February 15th, 2004, 01:36 AM
Shimei - I thought you were the best, but then I saw your tag line, please explain the following.

"Do not judge. All sins are equal. Hate the sin and love the sinner. There is a reason for everything."

:doh:

Are you promoting these ideas? Normally one does not espouse a truth claim unless they think it is true.

1Way
February 15th, 2004, 01:43 AM
Freak - God's word and physical evidence is not an either or situation. God's word establishes many physical realities upon which our faith is edified, like the new creation from the indwelling spirit of God in believers today, the fact that creation, including manís conscience, is such that it declares even the invisible attributes of God being clearly seen. Special and general revelation are each connected together and are not exclusivist like you pretend to convey. But then again, Iím only being reasonable and Iím basing my faith accurately upon Godís word, unlike yourself.

Freak
February 15th, 2004, 09:05 AM
Originally posted by 1Way

Freak - God's word and physical evidence is not an either or situation. Physical evidence proves, in the law books, that same sex marriages are legal (in some nations), nature has been changed, considered legal. In God's eyes, however, it is considered illegal, evil, wrong. God's Words trumps physical evidence found in the law books of the nations. Do right, 1Way and risk the consequences. Allow yourself to consumed with Godly thoughts regarding this matter not unGodly thoughts.


.... and Iím basing my faith accurately upon Godís word, unlike yourself. This coming from a guy that quotes nothing from the Biblical record on the subject. What a joke. You have trusted in physical evidence while I have trusted in the truth in the testimony of Jesus Christ and the objective standard of God's Word.

So, in light of this, feel free to deal with the Biblical record...

First of all, we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:7

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

1 Corinthians 14:26

What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

To equip people to share the gospel.

Matthew 10:19,20

But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Luke 4:18

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,"

1 Corinthians 2:13

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

To show God's compassion and concern for His people.

Matthew 14:13-14

When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. 14When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

Matthew 20:29-34

As Jesus and his disciples were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed him. Two blind men were sitting by the roadside, and when they heard that Jesus was going by, they shouted, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
The crowd rebuked them and told them to be quiet, but they shouted all the louder, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
Jesus stopped and called them. "What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
"Lord," they answered, "we want our sight."
Jesus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed him.

Mark 1:40-42

A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, "If you are willing, you can make me clean."
Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cured.

Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.

In fact we are told the gift of miracles is given to the Body...

Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Secondly, at least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Thirdly, God's Word tells us that miracles have a divine purpose that God promises will be carried out:

...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

God says He uses miracles to testify, to confirm of His goodness, His glory, His salvation. Who are you to tell us God doesn't have a purpose for miracles when in fact He does? If He gave His Body the gift of miracles, which He has, then it is safe to say He still performs miracles. This despite what you personally believe.

Clete and 1Way, Theo, Godrulz, and myself have all shared (along with several other posters) our personal encounters with miracles. I have witnessed hundreds of miracles. Hundreds of people being healed and delivered from demons. You reject my testimony, you reject theo's and you reject Godrulz's. So, we now turn to the Biblical record which is clearly in our favor. Now, we ask you to deal with the reality of God's Word on this subject...

godrulz
February 15th, 2004, 10:50 AM
'Charismatic Chaos' (MacArthur) may explain some of the phenomenon (some things are psychological or demonic), and Pentecostals would also share his concerns about the lunatic fringe of the charismatic movement. We would disagree with his anti-charismatic bias, hermeneutics, and limited understanding of genuine, biblical Pentecostalism. Discernment, not negation, would be supported by better books than this diatribe.

Servo
February 15th, 2004, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by 1Way

Shimei - I thought you were the best, but then I saw your tag line, please explain the following.

"Do not judge. All sins are equal. Hate the sin and love the sinner. There is a reason for everything."

:doh:

Are you promoting these ideas? Normally one does not espouse a truth claim unless they think it is true.

:1Way:

My tag line is TOTAL sarcasm. I am trying to point out how stupid those cliques are. Sorry for the confusion.

theo_victis
February 15th, 2004, 12:42 PM
ONEWAY -


"A little less subjective personal cut downs, a little more concrete reasonable argumentation, if you will."


byte your own words why dont you?

a quote from you:

"Freak = swallow a camel and strain out a nat."

and by the way its gnat not nat. Just playing around. he he he!

theo_victis
February 15th, 2004, 12:46 PM
Clete-

"Show me a person who was blind and can prove that they were blind and that now has 20/20 vision.
Show me a person who had one leg and can prove that they only had one leg and now has two perfectly functioning legs.
Show me a person who was deaf and can prove that they were deaf who can now hear perfectly without the use of any technology but simply with there own two ears."


here is your proof. I once had malaria and a group of eighteen people prayed over me and then i was healed. There are over 20 people to testify to this. Or wait, they must have been decieved.

i cant send you medical records but its true.

Clete
February 15th, 2004, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by theo_victis

I can't send you medical records but....

I'm shocked! :shocked:

I never would have guessed! :rolleyes:

Leaving sarcasm behind...

You understand that you expect me to except your word as proof that you are right.

I'm sorry but it doesn't work that way. It's not that I think you are lying, in fact I'm quite sure you believe what you say to be true, but your sincerity isn't proof. If youíd step back a moment and think it through unemotionally, you would see that for yourself.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

Freak
February 15th, 2004, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

I'm shocked! :shocked: Theo, don't waste your time on Clete. He's a hater of Scripture. He's more interested in "physical" evidence then the objective truth found in Holy Scripture. He doesn't even trust Jesus, so why would he trust any of His followers and their testimonies of God's power.


Leaving sarcasm behind... That's not the only thing you have left behind. I've noticed you have left your brain behind....


I'm sorry but it doesn't work that way. It's not that I think you are lying, in fact I'm quite sure you believe what you say to be true, but your sincerity isn't proof. I think based on what I have read from Clete it's safe to say he's not a believer in Christ. Remember Clete, It's not that I think you are lying that you're a Christian, in fact I'm quite sure you believe what you say to be true, but your sincerity isn't proof.

1Way
February 15th, 2004, 03:13 PM
Shimei - :thumb: :o

Freak
February 15th, 2004, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by godrulz

We would disagree with his anti-charismatic bias, hermeneutics, and limited understanding of genuine, biblical Pentecostalism. Discernment, not negation, would be supported by better books than this diatribe. :thumb:

1Way
February 15th, 2004, 03:18 PM
Clete - Also, as though physical healing is not part of the natural laws. I was sick and I was prayed for and I was healed, but that does not mean it was a miracle. Now, that guy who instantly grew a hand from a deformed stub, that, would NOT be a natural healing.

Like I said, if we donít establish what a miracle actually and biblically is, we will be running around in circles talking past each other.

Freak
February 15th, 2004, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by 1Way

Like I said, if we donít establish what a miracle actually and biblically is, we will be running around in circles talking past each other. That's already been established. Get with the program. Just because you say we haven't doesn't mean that is the case. :rolleyes:

1Way
February 15th, 2004, 03:33 PM
Freak you quoted godrulz saying
We would disagree with his anti-charismatic bias, hermeneutics, and limited understanding of genuine, biblical Pentecostalism. Discernment, not negation, would be supported by better books than this diatribe. Consider the source.

Your quoting a man who has devoted decades of research and personal investment into Pentacostlism, but when pressed to understand Godís word about the nature of the two very different groups of believers explained within Paulís epistleís (*1*), he says, I donít have the expertise to do that, why donít you do that instead.

(*1*) This is in reference to Paul teaching that in Christ there is no more Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free, etc. i.e. we are all one in Christ, I think there are 2 or so such haulmark teachings, and the fact is that Paul teaches about the differences between these two groups in about every book he wrote and at great length, the raw data alone about these difference that Paul teaches is somewhat staggering especially when you consider that there isnít supposed to be any such differences between the Jew and the gentile, that is, via the non-dispensation-ally aware mindset.

So if godrulz shows some affinity against a writing that disagrees with his mindset, his bias is only too obvious. He would not even do a robust search over all the audience differentiations for the circumcision and the uncircumcision writings beyond a superficial inquiry. His faith is not about conforming it to the bible, itís about conforming to Pentecostal tradition.

1Way
February 15th, 2004, 03:35 PM
freak - You right, by your own logic, just because you say it has been established, doesn't mean it has.

Obviously we disagree about what a miracle really is, you aren't even able to defend your view against Bob's teaching (about what a biblical miracle is), because you don't even know what it is. You certainly never even represented it prior to arguing against it. :kookoo:

Freak
February 15th, 2004, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by 1Way

freak - You right, by your own logic, It's not that I think you're lying when you say you really believe you're right on this issue, in fact I'm quite sure you believe what you say to be true, but your sincerity isn't proof.

Furthermore....Deception doesn't speak well of you...My objective truth is the Holy Scripture regarding this issue.

So, in light of this, feel free to deal with the Biblical record...

First of all, we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:7

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

1 Corinthians 14:26

What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

To equip people to share the gospel.

Matthew 10:19,20

But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Luke 4:18

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,"

1 Corinthians 2:13

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

To show God's compassion and concern for His people.

Matthew 14:13-14

When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. 14When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

Matthew 20:29-34

As Jesus and his disciples were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed him. Two blind men were sitting by the roadside, and when they heard that Jesus was going by, they shouted, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
The crowd rebuked them and told them to be quiet, but they shouted all the louder, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
Jesus stopped and called them. "What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
"Lord," they answered, "we want our sight."
Jesus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed him.

Mark 1:40-42

A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, "If you are willing, you can make me clean."
Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cured.

Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.

In fact we are told the gift of miracles is given to the Body...

Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Secondly, at least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Thirdly, God's Word tells us that miracles have a divine purpose that God promises will be carried out:

...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

God says He uses miracles to testify, to confirm of His goodness, His glory, His salvation. Who are you to tell us God doesn't have a purpose for miracles when in fact He does? If He gave His Body the gift of miracles, which He has, then it is safe to say He still performs miracles. This despite what you personally believe.

Clete and 1Way, Theo, Godrulz, and myself have all shared (along with several other posters) our personal encounters with miracles. I have witnessed hundreds of miracles. Hundreds of people being healed and delivered from demons. You reject my testimony, you reject theo's and you reject Godrulz's. So, we now turn to the Biblical record which is clearly in our favor. Now, we ask you to deal with the reality of God's Word on this subject...


Obviously we disagree about what a miracle really is, No. We disagree on the issue of miracles being given to the Body today. I embrace a Biblical position, you embrace a Plot position.


you aren't even able to defend your view against Bob's teaching (about what a biblical miracle is), because you don't even know what it is. Jesus tells us casting out of demons is a miracle...

Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us.

Do you agree that casting out demons is a miracle, in light of what Jesus said?

1Way
February 15th, 2004, 04:13 PM
Freak Ė That is very nice of you to let 540 posts go by without presenting anything beyond a claim or superficial understanding of what Bob teaches, only to seek my challenging your views instead.

Thanks for thinking so highly of me that we should focus on "my" thoughts against yours, instead of "your" thoughts against Bob's. But in this thread, we are waiting to hear your challenge against what Bob actually teaches, not what you assume he teaches, not just his resulting claims, but what he actually teaches about miracles.

That was the reason this entire thread was created, so we patiently await you doing what you said you would do.

So, lets get on with it, 1) present Bobís view about what a miracle is, and then 2) demonstrate what is wrong it that accurately produced teaching.

Freak
February 15th, 2004, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by 1Way

Freak Ė That is very nice of you to let 540 posts go by without presenting anything beyond a claim or superficial understanding of what Bob teaches, You have already stated on this thread that what I presented as my understanding of what Enyart teaches on this subject as being "accurate."

So, lets get on with it, 1) present Bobís view about what a miracle is, and then 2) demonstrate what is wrong it that accurately produced teaching. That has already been accomplished. We have found, in light of the Biblical record, that Enyart is in error.

So, let's move on to you...

Jesus tells us casting out of demons is a miracle...

Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us.

Do you agree that casting out demons is a miracle, in light of what Jesus said?

1Way
February 15th, 2004, 04:31 PM
Freak - I said that you represented just one aspect of what Bob teaches accurately, not remotely anything substantial or that such an isolated occurrence accurately reflects what Bob actually teaches.

You have not represented a single one of His teachings, within any refutation, a reader should be able to reconstruct the refuted position accurately, if not, then the refutation may not suit the position because of a glaring lack of faithful representation.

You have NOT accurately represented Bobís teaching on anything, Iíve asked this of you before and you just claimed you did, but no one has yet seen you represent what Bob teaches beyond a simple claim or a superficial understanding. If you think you have done as much, then reference me the exact post, I searched all over and have found nothing substantial. Remember, a teaching would be much like you are doing, reason your understanding, demonstrate from scripture, develop your view, perhaps make more scripture references, and conclude and summarize.

A claim is not an entire teaching
A disagreement is not a refutation
An argument is not a point-counter-point

If you canít first accurately represent that which you think is wrong, then you are boldly proclaiming your ignorance and dishonest prejudice. But then again, I'm only being reasonable and honest. :rolleyes:

Freak
February 15th, 2004, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by 1Way

Freak - I said that you represented just one aspect of what Bob teaches accurately... And that one aspect that we exposed tore down his foundation which he based all of his other faulty beliefs on. Biblical apologetics is quite easy when you go for the foundations which we did. In light of God's revealed Word, Enyart's view on miracles is found in error!


Remember, a teaching would be much like you are doing, reason your understanding, demonstrate from scripture, develop your view, perhaps make more scripture references, and conclude and summarize.

So, in light of this, feel free to deal with the Biblical record...

First of all, we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:7

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

1 Corinthians 14:26

What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

To equip people to share the gospel.

Matthew 10:19,20

But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Luke 4:18

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,"

1 Corinthians 2:13

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

To show God's compassion and concern for His people.

Matthew 14:13-14

When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. 14When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

Matthew 20:29-34

As Jesus and his disciples were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed him. Two blind men were sitting by the roadside, and when they heard that Jesus was going by, they shouted, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
The crowd rebuked them and told them to be quiet, but they shouted all the louder, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
Jesus stopped and called them. "What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
"Lord," they answered, "we want our sight."
Jesus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed him.

Mark 1:40-42

A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, "If you are willing, you can make me clean."
Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cured.

Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.

In fact we are told the gift of miracles is given to the Body...

Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Secondly, at least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Thirdly, God's Word tells us that miracles have a divine purpose that God promises will be carried out:

...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

God says He uses miracles to testify, to confirm of His goodness, His glory, His salvation. Who are you to tell us God doesn't have a purpose for miracles when in fact He does? If He gave His Body the gift of miracles, which He has, then it is safe to say He still performs miracles. This despite what you personally believe.


A claim is not an entire teaching
A disagreement is not a refutation
An argument is not a point-counter-point

Your wisdom pales to the Biblical record.

For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

1Way
February 15th, 2004, 05:47 PM
freak - :rolleyes: :doh: You are violent and crooked. Deal uprightly what what you said you would do. We are still waiting for you to accurately represent and refute Bob's teachings on miracles.

Perhaps you should just be honest and admit that you have no plans on doing what you said you would do, in this your thread of refutation against Bobís teachings.

1Way
February 15th, 2004, 05:50 PM
freak - :rolleyes: :doh:

ďYourĒ wisdom pales to the Biblical record.

For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

Anything but a direct point and counter point, isnít that so freak? If you canít take the heat, then get out of the kitchen.

Freak
February 15th, 2004, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by 1Way

freak You are violent and crooked. You're one of those Nicer Than God types that fails to deal with His Word and instead indulges in fallacies. This is wicked. You have done a disservice to yourself by not examining the Word of God on this subject.

We are still waiting for you to accurately represent and refute Bob's teachings on miracles. Mission already accomplished. He was found in Biblical error!

Freak
February 15th, 2004, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by 1Way

freak -:

ďYourĒ wisdom pales to the Biblical record. No, this is your darkened mind attempting to understand the Scriptural evidence that we have provided.


Anything but a direct point and counter point, isnít that so freak? You resorted to man's wisdom. I responded by bringing down your argument with Scripture...

For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

Pretty direct. I knew it worked as your flesh rose up against it. :down:

Servo
February 15th, 2004, 09:03 PM
Here is Fraud's "counter-point" to every point ever made against any of his posts.

Fraud:

You are wrong; the answer is in the Bible.

Homework for anyone who disagrees with Fraud:

You need to read the Bible.

Could you be anymore general Fraud? Maybe if you quote the same verses over and over again we will someday understand.

Homework for Fraud:

Learn how to debate.

Freak
February 15th, 2004, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by Shimei

Maybe if you quote the same verses over and over again we will someday understand.

Godrulz, light, theo, have all seen the following Scriptural evidence ignored. We know why. It's because the Word stands on it's own and has defeated the plot materials.

Perhaps, Shimei you'd like to take a jab...

First of all, we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:7

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

1 Corinthians 14:26

What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

To equip people to share the gospel.

Matthew 10:19,20

But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Luke 4:18

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,"

1 Corinthians 2:13

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

To show God's compassion and concern for His people.

Matthew 14:13-14

When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. 14When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

Matthew 20:29-34

As Jesus and his disciples were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed him. Two blind men were sitting by the roadside, and when they heard that Jesus was going by, they shouted, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
The crowd rebuked them and told them to be quiet, but they shouted all the louder, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
Jesus stopped and called them. "What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
"Lord," they answered, "we want our sight."
Jesus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed him.

Mark 1:40-42

A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, "If you are willing, you can make me clean."
Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cured.

Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.

In fact we are told the gift of miracles is given to the Body...

Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Secondly, at least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Thirdly, God's Word tells us that miracles have a divine purpose that God promises will be carried out:

...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

God says He uses miracles to testify, to confirm of His goodness, His glory, His salvation. Who are you to tell us God doesn't have a purpose for miracles when in fact He does? If He gave His Body the gift of miracles, which He has, then it is safe to say He still performs miracles. This despite what you personally believe.

freelight
February 15th, 2004, 10:35 PM
Hi All,

I would like to reiterate that I have shared about the element of faith in all the works of God - God acting and manifesting His presence in all things - miraculous or not. The element of faith cannot be brushed aside....as Jesus teaches much on faith...and that it has greater powers than we can imagine. This faith is of course of the substance of God himself.....a spiritual generation active in the human heart/soul.

Bob may have his 'opinion' based on his view of scripture and experience....concerning miracles. He may have supporters of his view. Just as many if not more....believe otherwise....and place no limit or restriction upon Gods power working within and in the midst of Gods people. I have chosen to allow the Spirit of God full liberty and the free exercise of faith in the new convenant ministry....as to include all the charismas of the Spirit - and the powers of God to operate as the Spirit wills and as faith allows...as this is the ministry of the Spirit in this day and Age.
We have been given the same Spirit that raised the Christ from the dead....and therefore have the power and authority of our Head...whose body we are - we are one. Christ maintains all spiritual power and authority in the earth...and we are his body. All the gifts of the Spirit are ours for the work of the ministry...and the edification of the eclessia. The church would be impotent without the anointings of the Spirit. We have the Spirit and all the gifts.....for God has not left his body unequipped. In a day when Gods power and unctions are so needed......we need even more of the Holy Spirits power, wisdom, guidance and special anointings to do the work of God. Anyone who for some doctrinal view holds the presupposition that the Spirits power has been withdrawn, dinimished or taken from the church is spiritually blind and bereft of the faith of God.

Again,.....you will have, touch, taste and experience whatever your faith allows. If your faith-extension does not include miracles(of any kind or degree)...then you shall have as you believe. All manners of inspired speech (prophesy, wisdom, knowledge, oracles, song, psalms, tongues, etc.) are still active today in and thru those vessels who will be used of God for his glory - with all these are gifts of healing, MIRACLES, administrations, giving, and on and on. As believers filled with the faith and power of God...we believe God wholly! And our faith is released in the infinite and eternal power of the Spirit. We abide in the fullness of God.......and walk in the Spirit. Our faith is generated and fortified in the supreme sufficiency of the Christ - the faith he taught and spoke of...is cherished, held and exercised by his faithful ones - they go forth and do the works of God......and even greater works as he promised. The disciple went forth in faith and did miracles of healing....and deliverance.....even before they received the fuller measure of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost! They had faith. Now we have faith and the Spirit of God in us...working thru us....as anointed ones. The liberty of Gods Spirit to rule and regin in our midst is present NOW! O glory.


Again,.....those who have not the ears to hear or eyes to see...and are not attending a church where faith is not taught - these ones will not have faith to believe God for greater things - things that he has promised and are already ours in Christ! The faithful ones do not focus on miracles - we have the faith of God and Christ in us - we preach with goodnews....and signs and wonders follow! The fruits of faith ripen and the glory of God manifests when the word of faith is preached - for faith comes by hearing - if the preacher is not teaching/preaching the word of God which inspires faith...how can they have faith?

So...it really matters as far as what one believes and concludes...who he is sitting under or allowing to be his 'teacher'. Those under this teacher can only receive what this teacher preaches - his lot with be their lot. Like produces like - each seed after its own kind.

I choose to believe in the liberty of the Spirit.....and that faith the size of a grain of mustard seed can be the spring-board from which wonderful things can transpire and manifest. What an awesome and mighty God we serve. The gifts and charismas of the Spirit are in full operation and accessibility to those workers in the harvest....who will accept and receive them...and be a great force and healing presence in the world...as they go forth in Jesus name and proclaim the good news. Jesus sends us forth as beacons of light.....ministers of healing....carriers of good news.

The miracle deniers here are an example of placing one mans teaching and/or dispensational view above the full context of NT scripture and more importantly the teaching of Jesus. The teachings of Jesus on faith are apparent in the gospels - but these are denied because of lack of faith...and holding to a doctrine that has been formed because of lack of evidence - which is 'lack of faith' to believe Jesus. Its an easy way out to intellectualize that miracles have ceased - how pathetic. Now wonder the pagans, witches, satanists, occultists pitty-potty all over the bereft and faithless 'christians' who are devoid of the Spirits power.


Jesus calls us forth in faith....to have faith...express faith....minister in faith...walk in faith.....live faith. Paul further teaches that God has given His church the workings of the Spirit to do and carry on the work of God. God bless those who have the faith of Jesus...and do the works of God. All shall have according to their faith.




paul

1Way
February 16th, 2004, 02:26 AM
A wicked and perverse generation seeks a sign...

(I donít promote seeking after signs and wonders, do you?)

Even if the dead is raised, they still will not believe...

(Wow, was Jesus serious? Many people think that the more miraculous the better! The more miraculous the more faith would increase. Jesus must have meant something else, because many reject this teaching in favor of a longstanding tradition of seeking after signs.)

Faith is the substance of things not seen, the evidence of things hoped for...

(Wow, a miracle cancels out the use of faith by definition.)

freelight
February 16th, 2004, 03:30 AM
Originally posted by 1Way

A wicked and perverse generation seeks a sign...

(I donít promote seeking after signs and wonders, do you?)

Even if the dead is raised, they still will not believe...

(Wow, was Jesus serious? Many people think that the more miraculous the better! The more miraculous the more faith would increase. Jesus must have meant something else, because many reject this teaching in favor of a longstanding tradition of seeking after signs.)

Faith is the substance of things not seen, the evidence of things hoped for...

(Wow, a miracle cancels out the use of faith by definition.)


)=============no one is seeking a sign but you miracle deniers. JESUS said signs and wonders would follow those who believe. If you dont see them......perhaps you should check your 'faith' - yet still deny what Jesus taught about faith.

Faith is indeed the substance - faith is the essence that one must have before any and all manifestations of God are realized, had and enjoyed. Clete is particularly denying faith by demanding to be SHOWN something first - he wants to SEE the Evidence first - THIS IS NOT FAITH! Faith must be first in the Invisible...then it is brought forth into the visible - we need to start understanding the dynamics of faith.

I am not sure if you demand to be shown miracles just as ardent as Clete - neither do I agree with your estimation of miracles above - I say faith is often the invisible generation power behind miracles. Of course when a miracles is fully realized, received, enjoyed - one has the actual full manifestations of it! - GLory to God!

Freaks thorough presentations of scripture supporting that miracles can be supports for faith among some seem to be ignored by you. WE walk by faith not by sight - we fully acknowlede this - this is elementary. WE also believe that anyone who works a miracle in Christs name......does so to glorify God...and in such God is glorified! We also believe that all the charismas of the Spirit are still operative in the church. I have further extended faiths role and primacy in many manifestation of miracles. This discussion actually expands beyond Bobs definition of 'miracle' and his dispensationalism. Much could be learned that Bobs teaching cannot afford to his readers from posters on this thread. God will be all that He IS and all that He Will Be...to those who believe - those who please him....thru their faith. Remember the mustard seed.


paul

godrulz
February 16th, 2004, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by 1Way

A wicked and perverse generation seeks a sign...

(I donít promote seeking after signs and wonders, do you?)

Even if the dead is raised, they still will not believe...

(Wow, was Jesus serious? Many people think that the more miraculous the better! The more miraculous the more faith would increase. Jesus must have meant something else, because many reject this teaching in favor of a longstanding tradition of seeking after signs.)

Faith is the substance of things not seen, the evidence of things hoped for...

(Wow, a miracle cancels out the use of faith by definition.)

I suspect these verses are a historical narrative with Jesus giving a general principle about a specific group of hard-hearted people in His day. This does not negate the didactic passages that show the benefits to the Church or unsaved.

We are to seek the Healer, not the healing; the Giver, not the gift. Motive is the key, not the validity of God's power. If we ask for the Spirit and His manifestations, He promised to not give us a rock.

Jesus's words should not be pitted against Pauline teaching to produce a contradiction. A proper interpretation, in context, will expose the wrong interpretation, and affirm the validity of healing, etc. for the Body of Christ and the lost.

Jerry Shugart
February 16th, 2004, 12:39 PM
Perhaps this discussion would progress to a higher level if we distinguished miracles into two classes--"evidential" miracles and miracles which cannot be seen or proven.

Surely the "new birth" is one of the greatest miracles of all,and this miracle continues to happen to those who believe the gospel today.But it is not an "evidential" or "public" miracle which followed those who believed during the Acts period.

Those miracles were given in order to "confirm" the "gospel of the kingdom:

"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following"(Mk.16:20).

We are not to preach the "gospel of the Kingdom" at this time,so therefore these evidential miracles are no longer needed.

These miracles were given to accredit the Teacher and those who were followers of Him.The OT prophecies spoke of a Messiah who would come doing miracles (Isa.61:1-2;Lk.4:18).

If the Lord Jesus did not come doing miracles such as healing He would have been dismissed outright as being an imposter.So in this sense we can see that "external evidence" such as these evidential miracles were used to accredit the "gospel of the Kingdom".

As long as the word of God continued to be preached to the Jews these "evidential" miracles remained in place.But after the preaching of the "kingdom" ceased to be preached to the Jews (at Acts 28) then the "evidential" miracles no longer had a place in the purposes of the Lord God.

The days of the "rushing mighty wind",the "tongues of fire"(Acts2:2,3),and the earthquakes shock(Acts4:31;16:23) are past.

In His grace,--Jerry

Freak
February 16th, 2004, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Perhaps this discussion would progress to a higher level if we distinguished miracles into two classes--"evidential" miracles and miracles which cannot be seen or proven. Okay. First of all, you're making a classification where there is no Biblical warrant for such. The Body has been given a "gift of miracles." Period.

Let's start here...

Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us.

Jesus equated the ministry of casting out demons as a miracle in His name, as the context clearly dictates. Do you see this miracle as one that "evidential" or a miracle that cannot be seen (such supernaturally healing of the broken hearts, the conversion experience, etc). Jerry, do you believe demons can still inhabit people today? Do you believe believers can still cast out demons?


Surely the "new birth" is one of the greatest miracles of all,and this miracle continues to happen to those who believe the gospel today. I agree.


These miracles were given to accredit the Teacher and those who were followers of Him.The OT prophecies spoke of a Messiah who would come doing miracles (Isa.61:1-2;Lk.4:18).

If Jesusí miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldnít they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Canít we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?

Furthermore...If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.


As long as the word of God continued to be preached to the Jews these "evidential" miracles remained in place.But after the preaching of the "kingdom" ceased to be preached to the Jews (at Acts 28) then the "evidential" miracles no longer had a place in the purposes of the Lord God. You're making a classification where there is no Biblical warrant for such. The Body has been given a "gift of miracles." Period.

Let me remind you of the biblical position...

First of all, we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.

Secondly, at least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Thirdly, God's Word tells us that miracles have a divine purpose that God promises will be carried out:

...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

God says He uses miracles to testify, to confirm of His goodness, His glory, His salvation. Who are you to tell us God doesn't have a purpose for miracles when in fact He does?

Freak
February 16th, 2004, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by godrulz

I suspect these verses are a historical narrative with Jesus giving a general principle about a specific group of hard-hearted people in His day. This does not negate the didactic passages that show the benefits to the Church or unsaved.

We are to seek the Healer, not the healing; the Giver, not the gift. Motive is the key, not the validity of God's power. If we ask for the Spirit and His manifestations, He promised to not give us a rock.

Jesus's words should not be pitted against Pauline teaching to produce a contradiction. A proper interpretation, in context, will expose the wrong interpretation, and affirm the validity of healing, etc. for the Body of Christ and the lost. :thumb:

theo_victis
February 16th, 2004, 06:36 PM
Whatever, freak and i are right about the miracles that take place in the world. Believe what you want to believe. All i care is that atleast 5 people for sure are going to heaven because of these miracles that they and i witnessed. Why dont you go up to them and tell them that what they saw wasnt real, what they witnessed was "natural" and was only coincidental that IMEADIATLEY after we prayed for them they were healed. Tell them that they placed their faith into nothing. Tell that it was all a big fat lie. Tell me that!

Then i need you to do this for me:

Prove to me that Jesus exsisted. AH HA! you cant! Because according to your definations of verifible evidence, a testimony isnt one of them. So why do you believe? The bible is a testimony, it isnt physical proof! It is the old and new testimonies! It is not physical proof.

Are you seeing my point? There is an element to faith for all of this. Of course Jesus exsisted, of course he is God and of course the bible is God breathed. But it takes faith for you to see that. Just as it takes faith that there is a heaven and we will go there, so does believing in the work of God.

Are you all denying the idea that God is powerful and still works? It seems to me that you like it that way. You seem to like to think that God isnt really intervening and he just is kinda there in the all powerful form.

God is the same yesterday today and forever. He does not decieve. Dont you know salvation is a miracle? It is a gift of eternal life! Do you deny the idea that occurs too???? Of course you dont! So why do you deny God doing miracles??

Quit being so cynical. Oneway, Clete, your logic is distorted. It does not matter if you believe they happen or not because they do.

I was just told by one of my proffesors (who is a friend of mine) that a man from india was saved in result of their son being risen from the dead. Praise God for that! oh wait you would rather call him and my proffesor a liar.

God bless your souls, may you see the truth..... if only.

Jerry Shugart
February 17th, 2004, 11:33 AM
Originally posted by Freak
Jerry, do you believe demons can still inhabit people today? Do you believe believers can still cast out demons?
I have never seen any evidence that demons are possessing men at this time.I seriously doubt that those from Rome who claim to cast out demons do in fact have the power to cast out demons.

If Jesusí miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles?
Isn't it evident that the "healing" was a part of their ministry?Look at Matthew 4:23 and isn't that fact evident?

Perhaps the Lord did not want to leave Israel with any excuse for not accepting Him.Now He can say,Did I not send My apostles healing all manner of sicknesses in order that you might know that they were sent of God just as was My Son?

Furthermore...If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles?
I do not believe that the miracles were given to "authenticate the Scriptures" but instead to authenticate those who were sent of God.

In fact,we read that "He did not many mighty works because of their unbelief"(Mt.13:58).

Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.
As I said previously,when the Lord Jesus ministered to the children of Israel it was necessary that He must do miracles in order to fulfill the OT prophecies that spoke of Him.And when the word went to the Gentiles I believe that signs were given to them in order that the Jews would know that Paul was in God's will when he went to them.As long as the "gospel of the kingdom" continued to be preached to the Jews the "signs" remained a part of the Lord's purposes.

You're making a classification where there is no Biblical warrant for such. The Body has been given a "gift of miracles." Period.
After the Acts period when the words ceased to be preached to the nation of Israel we read the following from the pen of Paul:

"Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick"(2Tim.4:20).

If Paul's ministry at the time this epistle was written why would Paul not just heal Trophimus insrtead of leaving him there in Miletum sick?This is the same Paul whose healing power is described so clearly in the Acts period:

"So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them"(Acts 19:12).

First of all, we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.
If the gift that was given to the church has not been taken away then why do we not ever hear anyone in the churches today speak a language that they have never studied and have no knowledge of as did those at Acts 2:6-11?

In other words,those believers at Acts 2 were able to speak in "known" languages even though they had no knowledge of those languages.Those in the churches today are unable to speak in any "known" languages of which they have no knowledge.

And what about this verse:

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover"(Mk.16:17,18).

There are many deadly poisions out today that will kill anyone who would ingest but just a small amount of them.Is anyone willing to take those deadly poisions in order to prove that these words of Jesus Christ are for today?

If they would take them and remain alive then I am sure they would find a large audience to demonstrate this miracle.They would bring many unbelievers to their ministry in order that they might hear the word of God.But I am not aware of any professing Christian who has enough belief in there immunity to deadly poisions that they would in fact ingest the poision that I would choose to give them.

And during the Acts period the Apostles were able to heal people with "outward" infirmities.Why is it that today the faith healers are unable to do the same thing?Why is it that they cannot heal a deformed arm or something of that nature?

Secondly, at least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9).
You make a good point for my argument.If we are to follow him in regard to his gifts then should not there be many beliers today who are able to follow his actions as recorded in the following erse?:

"So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them"(Acts 19:12).

If you are correct then perhaps it is only Benny Hinn and those like him who are following Paul.

Thirdly, God's Word tells us that miracles have a divine purpose that God promises will be carried out:

[B]...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
Again,if I could see Christians being able to duplicate the miracles which Paul performed during the ACts period then I would believe that miracles are for today.But the absence of similiar miracles leads me to believe that evidential miracles are not for today.

Who are you to tell us God doesn't have a purpose for miracles when in fact He does?
If "miracles" are for today then I cannot understand why believers cannot duplicate the miracles that were performed during the Acts period.And I am not aware of the following events happening today:

"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them"(Acts2:1-3).

If these things are for today then would we not also see "cloven tongues like as of fire" sit upon those who believe?

In His grace,--Jerry

Freak
February 17th, 2004, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

I have never seen any evidence that demons are possessing men at this time. You got to be kidding me. Just because you haven't seen the evidence doesn't mean there isn't any. When did demons stop possessing people, Jerry according to Scripture. Don't give me your hunch or idea but Scriptural support. In the New Covenant people were possessed by demons and during the tribulation period the anti-Christ will be possessed by a fallen angel-Satan.


I seriously doubt that those from Rome who claim to cast out demons do in fact have the power to cast out demons. Who cares what Rome thinks. The apostle Paul had authority to drive out a demon in Acts 16.

Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved." She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, "In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!" At that moment the spirit left her.


Isn't it evident that the "healing" was a part of their ministry? Yes. This healing ministry continues today in the church for God gives His Body the gift of healing.

There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit...



Now He can say,Did I not send My apostles healing all manner of sicknesses in order that you might know that they were sent of God just as was My Son? The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this. Besides, First Corinthians 12 speaks of the Body (not necessarily apostles) were given the gifts of miracles.


I do not believe that the miracles were given to "authenticate the Scriptures" but instead to authenticate those who were sent of God.

Jerry think this through Biblically...The Holy Scriptures don't seem to make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from other when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).


As I said previously,when the Lord Jesus ministered to the children of Israel it was necessary that He must do miracles in order to fulfill the OT prophecies that spoke of Him. Let's turn to what the Scriptures teach...

We see throughout the New Covenant that Jesus did miracles to show God's compassion and concern for His people.

Matthew 14:13-14

When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. 1When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

Matthew 20:29-34

As Jesus and his disciples were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed him. Two blind men were sitting by the roadside, and when they heard that Jesus was going by, they shouted, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
The crowd rebuked them and told them to be quiet, but they shouted all the louder, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
Jesus stopped and called them. "What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
"Lord," they answered, "we want our sight."
Jesus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed him.

Mark 1:40-42

A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, "If you are willing, you can make me clean."
Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cured.


"Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick"(2Tim.4:20). God doesn't heal all, sometimes He allows people to suffer for one reason or another. Look at Paul, he was afflicted by a demon and the Lord would not deliver him.

But, as I pointed out, the Body has been given the gift of healing. This gift ought to be used to bring healing. Imagine that.


This is the same Paul whose healing power is described so clearly in the Acts period Jerry, you haven't thought this through have you? Paul's gifts were subject to God's will. God doesn't save everyone and He doesn't heal everyone, but He does heal some and save some.


If the gift that was given to the church has not been taken away then why do we not ever hear anyone in the churches today speak a language that they have never studied and have no knowledge of as did those at Acts 2:6-11? A moderator on TOL (ebenz) has testified of experiencing what you have just mentioned. Ask her. Btw, I have also witnessed this phenomena several times.


Those in the churches today are unable to speak in any "known" languages of which they have no knowledge. So says you. The Bible says differently...

Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored. Therefore, my brothers, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way.

Paul was clear that the church does have the gift of tongues and we ought not to forbid the use of them. If He gives the gift then I know people have the gift, thereby using it.


There are many deadly poisions out today that will kill anyone who would ingest but just a small amount of them.Is anyone willing to take those deadly poisions in order to prove that these words of Jesus Christ are for today? Jesus said it, I believe it. If God can heal and I know He can, then alittle poison isn't something He can't stop from hurting someone.


But I am not aware of any professing Christian who has enough belief in there immunity to deadly poisions that they would in fact ingest the poision that I would choose to give them. But Jesus can.


And during the Acts period the Apostles were able to heal people with "outward" infirmities.Why is it that today the faith healers are unable to do the same thing? I don't know about faith healers but I do know about those who follow Jesus. God has given His Body the gifts of miracles and healing. If He has then He's still in the business of healing all kinds/forms of afflictions. Nothing is impossible with Him.


Why is it that they cannot heal a deformed arm or something of that nature? You're focused on people where I'm focused on Jesus. Jesus can heal deformed people and still does.


If we are to follow him in regard to his gifts then should not there be many beliers today who are able to follow his actions as recorded in the following erse? I have personally been used by the Lord to deliver hundreds of people from demons and have witnessed many people being healed.


If you are correct then perhaps it is only Benny Hinn and those like him who are following Paul. I'm not familiar with Benny so I can't comment. But there are believers right here on this forum who have testified of God's supernatural power--Ebenaz, Godrulz, Gavin, Free, Theo, myself, etc...


Again,if I could see Christians being able to duplicate the miracles which Paul performed during the ACts period then I would believe that miracles are for today. You should believe in miracles because of objective truth not due to your experiences. Bad theology you have there, Jerry.

First of all, we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.


But the absence of similiar miracles leads me to believe that evidential miracles are not for today. Where is the evidence for the belief in the God's nature being triune? Besides the Scriptures.


If "miracles" are for today then I cannot understand why believers cannot duplicate the miracles that were performed during the Acts period. But they are. Besides, you should believe in the reality of miracles because God still gives the gift of miracles to His Body in light of 1 Cor. 12, Gal. 3:5, etc.


If these things are for today then would we not also see "cloven tongues like as of fire" sit upon those who believe?

In His grace,--Jerry You sound more like an atheist then a believer. Are you not indwelt with the Holy Spirit? This is a supernatural occurance that cannot be explained in the physical, it's spiritual. Same with these spiritual elements, they need to be understood spiritually.

Homework:

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the apostles, as you claim, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question.

Jerry, I noticed you completely ignored this...At least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Poster, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

godrulz
February 17th, 2004, 04:49 PM
Jerry:

Millions of classical Pentecostals speak in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance and view it as the initial, physical evidence of the fullness of the Spirit. Hundreds of millions of Pentecostal-charismatic believers speak in tongues, even if they do not see it as the initial evidence. Tongues of fire was a one time sign that the Spirit had been given to the Church at Pentecost (one time event). Speaking in tongues is the initial evidence for believers that the Spirit is filling them in a new dimension subsequent to salvation. Fire was when the Spirit was GIVEN (once) and tongues is when the individual RECEIVES the power of the Spirit (many times since many believers are involved). There was no further record of Fire after Pentecost, so it is not normative for the individual like tongues can be (this experience is for all believers for power to be a witness and to have a heavenly prayer language).

We do not believe all people are healed all the time. Paul leaving someone sick does not negate the many times healing did happen through his ministry. We see many healed today, but many are not. God is sovereign.

Mark 16 is valid (some MSS do not have it) but is not to be understood presumptiously that we should handle snakes and drink poison to test God. There are records of this happening accidently where God intervenes to save people (e.g. Paul was not hurt by a snake in Acts).

We do not need identical to NT or dramatic miracles happening everyday for them to be real and edifying in our day.

Jerry Shugart
February 17th, 2004, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by Freak
When did demons stop possessing people, Jerry according to Scripture. Don't give me your hunch or idea but Scriptural support.
Freak,

I believe that over time the power of the demons has been "hindered" by the presence of the Holy Spirit.After the Church of the present dispensation meets the Lord Jesus in the air then the power of the demons will be restored to that of the previous dispensation:

"For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only He who now hindereth will continue to hinder until He be taken out of the way"(2Thess.2:7).

This refers to the time of the man of sin who will sit in the Temple of God and claim to be God.At that time the evil forces will no longer be restrained by the presence of the Holy Spirit.

Paul was clear that the church does have the gift of tongues and we ought not to forbid the use of them.
Paul was converted during a dispensation when water baptism and the gifts of the Holy Spirit were prominent.But those things were not the reason he was sent:

"For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect"(1Cor.1:17).

He did baptize some with water and many received spiritual gifts.But this was only because the "gospel of the kingdom" was still being preached to the Jews.His Apostleship was strictly in regard to preaching Jesus Christ according the the revelation of the mystery.This was something altogether different from the things of the dispensation that was about to end.

You should believe in miracles because of objective truth not due to your experiences. Bad theology you have there, Jerry.
You are correct that I should not base by opinions on my experiences.However,an understanding of the different dispensations reveals very clearly that the sign gifts do not belong to this dispensation.

Earlier,I asked you,"If these things are for today then would we not also see 'cloven tongues like as of fire' sit upon those who believe?"

To which you said:

You sound more like an atheist then a believer. Are you not indwelt with the Holy Spirit? This is a supernatural occurance that cannot be explained in the physical, it's spiritual. Same with these spiritual elements, they need to be understood spiritually.
The Scriptures that reveal that these things "appreared" to them:

"And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them"(Acts2:2,3).

It "filled all the house where they were sitting" and cloven tongues like as of fire "appeared" unto them and "sat upon each of them".

You say that this is a supernatural occurance which cannot be be explained in the physical.However,Luke explained it in "the physical".If nothing has changed since Pentecost in regard to the sign gifts then why doesn't the same thing happen now as it did then?

The experiences today in regard to the any so-called gifts are not the same as it was then.If it doesn't fit,then it is a counterfeit.

In His grace,--Jerry

Freak
February 18th, 2004, 06:25 AM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,

I believe that over time the power of the demons has been "hindered" by the presence of the Holy Spirit. No Scriptural evidence for such belief. In fact, the Bible tells us that evil increases not decreases...

Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived. But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them,

Peter warns the believers...

Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

The apostle Paul tells us...

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.


At that time the evil forces will no longer be restrained by the presence of the Holy Spirit. Do you think the Holocuast was driven by the enemy? Do you think partial birth abortion is driven by demons? The Holy Spirit has not restrained the great evils of our day--the killing of innocent babies. God is patient, evil abounds however. Evil hasn't been hindreded. :kookoo:


Paul was converted during a dispensation when water baptism and the gifts of the Holy Spirit were prominent.But those things were not the reason he was sent We're not talking about water baptism. We're talking about spiritual gift and miracles...

...we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church. Where Jerry did the Scripture tell us that spiritual gifts have been taken away from the Body of Christ?


You are correct that I should not base by opinions on my experiences. Good. So don't ask me about experiences. Thanks. Our standard for doctrine is Scripture not experience.

So let's turn there for I noticed you didn't finish your homework...

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the apostles, as you claim, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question.

Jerry, I noticed you completely ignored this again...At least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Poster, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.


However,an understanding of the different dispensations reveals very clearly that the sign gifts do not belong to this dispensation. So says dispensationalists but not Scripture...

The Holy Scriptures don't seem to make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from other when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some). The Spirit of God has given His Body gifts, gifts that include the gift of miracles....the burden of proof lies with you Jerry to provide the Scriptural evidence that these miracles and spiritual gifts were taken from the Body.


You say that this is a supernatural occurance which cannot be be explained in the physical.However,Luke explained it in "the physical". It was a unique supernatural event like the parting of the red sea.


If nothing has changed since Pentecost in regard to the sign gifts then why doesn't the same thing happen now as it did then? It may I don't know. All I know is this: God still gives His Body the gift of miracles, see 1Cor. 12, Gal. 3:5, etc...

Jerry Shugart
February 18th, 2004, 11:43 AM
Freak,

Earlier I said that the experiences today in regard to the so-called sign gifts do not match the experiences of the early church:

"And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them"(Acts2:2,3).

It "filled all the house where they were sitting" and cloven tongues like as of fire "appeared" unto them and "sat upon each of them".These things could be "seen" happening with the human eye.I asked you:

"If nothing has changed since Pentecost in regard to the sign gifts then why doesn't the same thing happen now as it did then?"

To which you said:

It may I don't know.
Well,you know in your case,do you not?Did the "cloven tongues like as of fire" sit upon you.Did this things "appear" to you as they did on the day of Pentecost?

The Scriptures reveal that we are to "make joyful noise to God",but the noises I hear coming from those who practice the so-called giift of tongues today is anything but joyful.Instead,much that is witnessed in these movements today more closely resembles something akin to demonical possession.The sounds coming from these groups reminds me of Isaiah's words about "the wizards that chirp and that mutter" (Isaiah 8:19, RV).

The receiving of the so-called spirirtual gifts today do not match what the Scriptures reveal as to how the disciples received those gifts on the day of Pentecost.And the "chipping and muttering" that is heard from those who practice these so-called tongues today are not "joyful noises" that are to be offered to the Lord.

In His grace,--Jerry

Freak
February 18th, 2004, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,

Earlier I said that the experiences today in regard to the so-called sign gifts do not match the experiences of the early church. You're looking for experience. My judgements about such things is not rooted in experience but rather objective truth found in Scripture.


Well,you know in your case,do you not? I've never spoken in tongues so I don't know.


Did the "cloven tongues like as of fire" sit upon you.Did this things "appear" to you as they did on the day of Pentecost? Jerry, I've never spoken in tongues so why would "cloven tongues like as fire" sit upon me?

Were you aware that tongues, as with every spiritual gift in Scripture, is given according to God...

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given...

Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?

No!! God doesn't give all believers the gift of teaching, etc...But He does give at least one gift to all members of the Body.


The Scriptures reveal that we are to "make joyful noise to God",but the noises I hear coming from those who practice the so-called giift of tongues today is anything but joyful. Jerry, our objective standard to test genuine and false tongues isn't your subjective hunches. Our objective standard is Scripture. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean God doesn't like it. Imagine that. Our faith isn't based on Jerry's hunches but the Bible.

Paul was very clear about his view on tongues...

"I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you."

But, our Lord Jesus never spoke in tongues. So we need a balanced Biblically view of this gift...

The Scriptures speaks of 2 kinds of tongues...

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels...

1. The supernatural ability to speak in a known language unknown to the person.

2. The supernatural ability to speak in a spiritual language.

These abilities and gifts are still given to the Body, including the gift of tongues...

...we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church. Where Jerry did the Scripture tell us that spiritual gifts have been taken away from the Body of Christ?


The receiving of the so-called spirirtual gifts today do not match what the Scriptures reveal as to how the disciples received those gifts on the day of Pentecost. Doesn't matter what you think Jerry. The Scriptures speak of God giving gifts of healing and miracles to the church...1 Cor. 12:7-10...

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.

The Spirit of God has given His Body gifts, gifts that include the gift of miracles....the burden of proof lies with you Jerry to provide the Scriptural evidence that these miracles and spiritual gifts were taken from the Body.

Read what Paul said to the early church in Gal 3:5...

Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

Let's move on to your homework...I asked you:

At least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Poster, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Silence from Jerry.

godrulz
February 19th, 2004, 12:58 AM
As I mentioned earlier, the visible tongues of fire were a sign that the Spirit was GIVEN to the CHURCH at Pentecost. This was a one time event not meant to be normative for every individual who receives the Spirit.

What is normative (precedent/pattern) in the Book of Acts for the INDIVIDUAL is the initial, physical evidence of speaking in tongues when the Spirit was RECEIVED subsequent to salvation (Acts 2:4; 8:17; 9:17, 10:46, 19:6) . This still occurs today as individuals receive the fullness of the Spirit. The Spirit is not given repeatedly to the Church so there are no fire tongues over our heads.

This reasonable explanation is more solid than discounting the validity of the spiritual gifts because fire does not occur (though there have been isolated reports in revivals of tongues of fire being seen).

Jerry Shugart
February 19th, 2004, 12:55 PM
Freak,
Earlier I said:

...the experiences today in regard to the so-called sign gifts do not match the experiences of the early church.
To which you replied:

You're looking for experience. My judgements about such things is not rooted in experience but rather objective truth found in Scripture.
My questioning in regard to the so-called sign gifts today is supported by the Scriptures.The Apostle John tells us to "test" the spirit in order to determine whether or not it is of God:

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but test the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world"(1Jn.4:1).

So all I am doing is exactly what John urges us to do.And if the so-called sign gifts of today are of God then they should be the same as they are as recorded in the Scriptures.I have already demonstrated that those who practice the so-called gift of tongues today are not offering "joyful" noises unto the Lord,but instead their noises remind me of Isaiah's words about "the wizards that chirp and that mutter" (Isaiah 8:19, RV).

In these days when the Christian dispensation is drawing to a close Satan is preparing the way when the "man of sin" will be energized by him "with all power and signs and lying wonders"(2Thess.2:9) in order to impersonate the Christ and thus to command the worship of mankind.The Spirit of God also "speaketh expressly" saying that in the "latter time" that some "shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils"(1Tim.4:1).

And the Lord also made it known that even though there will be some saying that they cast out demons that these people were never "known" by Him.They were never saved to begin with:

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out demons? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you"(Mt.7:23).

So just because some may think that demons are being exorcized today does not mean that this is of God.

At least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9).
Yes,but how can we follow Paul if we do not believe what he says.In his one of his later epistles (after the testimony to the Jews had ceased) Paul writes the following:

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;One Lord, one faith, one baptism..."(Eph.4:4,5).

This bapism must be the baptism which "giveth life",the baptism which is performed by the Holy Spirit when the believer is identified with the life and death of the Lord Jesus and baptized into the Church,which is His Body (1Cor.12:13,27).

This necessarily means that other baptisms are no longer in force during the present dispensation.That means that the "baptism of repentance" is not for the present time,and neither is the baptism where the Lord baptized with the Holy Spirit for power:

"...ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit many days for now...ye shall receive power after the Holy Spirit is come upon you"(Acts1:5,8).

This "power" was in regard to "witnessing" the "gospel of the kingdom"(v.8):

"And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following"(Mk.16:20).

Today we are not preaching the "gospel of the kingdom",but instead we are preaching the "word of reconciliation",the gospel which proclaims that the believer is "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"(Ro.3:23).

That gospel needs nothing to confirm it in any way,and that is because the "gospel of grace" comes in its own power and in the Holy Spirit:

"For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance"(1Thess.1:5).

So if we are going to follow Paul we must believe what he says.And he says that at the present time there is only "one baptism",and that baptism is performed by the Holy Spirit where He identifies the believer with both the life and death of the Lord and Savior.

In His grace,--Jerry

freelight
February 19th, 2004, 04:59 PM
Hi Jerry,

There are many baptisms. Repentence is still required and the Lord Jesus still baptizes with the Holy Spirit and fire. Jesus is still the baptizer!.........and the anointing of the Spirit for empowerment is still vital and necessary for effective ministry - or do you assume that we no longer need power from on high to do the Lords work :confused:


The gospel of the kingdom is still preached and this was never to change according to Jesus. You are building a dispensational mentality with Pauls gospel teachings and are reasoning from his gospel perspectives putting Jesus teaching as less significant.

The Lord Christ equips and empowers his church with all powers, charismas and functions - the ministrations of the Spirit are many and are given to each one accordingly that all may flow in the Unity of the Christ. Truly there is one baptism where we are all put into Christ - but in the whole spectrum of divine ministry there are many baptisms. There are many diversities of spirit-ministrations within the body of the Anointed - anointings, endowments, workings, dynamics, etc.

The wonder and joy of serving in the Spirit is having available all these Spirit-endowments which are ours in Christ. We are complete in Him - he has not left us without his empowering grace which functions thru manifold workings.

In our service to God and Man...all powers of God and the faculties of Man are to be opened to show forth the glory of God. When one surrenders himself as a vessel.....he yields his entire being to God to be used accordingly. The Spirits power is without measure...and faith has the power to save, transform and make whole. In this dimension of course we are challenged with limitations of our human-ness and mortality....but the Spirits power and faith are still ever-potent dynamics in our midst.

It is best to be found with great faith than little or none...and to be led of the Spirit...trusting in God wholly for every provision and work. Wisdom mediates and balances our energies in these endeavors.....however the potency and vitality of our faith is an ever-constant in our fellowship with God and our work here on earth.


Its a wonderful journey,



paul

Freak
February 19th, 2004, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

I have already demonstrated that those who practice the so-called gift of tongues today are not offering "joyful" noises unto the Lord... So says Jerry. Jerry's not the test for doctrine but Scripture is. The Scripture you pointed out deals with spirits that reject the personhood of Christ. I know of no one who speaks in tongues who rejects the personhood of Christ, they're operatingin the Holy Spirit not an unholy spirit as you propose. Your point is moot. The Biblical evidence is in my favor for the gift of tongues being for the church today...

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.

The Spirit of God has given His Body gifts, gifts that include the gift of miracles....the burden of proof lies with you Jerry to provide the Scriptural evidence that these miracles and spiritual gifts were taken from the Body.


but instead their noises remind me of Isaiah's words about "the wizards that chirp and that mutter" (Isaiah 8:19, RV). We're talking about the Body of Christ not wizards Jerry.


And the Lord also made it known that even though there will be some saying that they cast out demons that these people were never "known" by Him.They were never saved to begin with There are many who will profess Christ but their hearts are wicked. We know all this.


So just because some may think that demons are being exorcized today does not mean that this is of God. You remind me of the disciples whom Jesus rebuked...

Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us.


Yes,but how can we follow Paul if we do not believe what he says. Luke tells us that Paul cast out demons...

Once when we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, "These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved." She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, "In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!" At that moment the spirit left her.

This same Paul whom cast out evil spirits commanded the people of God to follow his example, 1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9. As I mentioned earlier Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Poster, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.


This bapism must be the baptism which "giveth life",the baptism which is performed by the Holy Spirit when the believer is identified with the life and death of the Lord Jesus and baptized into the Church,which is His Body (1Cor.12:13,27). Okay. This discussion is about miracles and spiritual gifts not baptisms.


Today we are not preaching the "gospel of the kingdom",but instead we are preaching the "word of reconciliation",the gospel which proclaims that the believer is "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"(Ro.3:23). Okay we know this. Stop with the smoking screens. The gifts of healing are to heal the sick. This glorifies God. This gift was never taken from the church. In fact, in Acts 10 we read concerning Jesus...

...how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

Our Lord Jesus healed the sick and we ought to follow His example in ministry as Paul dictated....

1 Cor. 11:1 "Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ."

Christ cast out demons & healed the sick, Paul followed His example and now Paul encouraged the church to follow his example of dealing with demons and healing the sick.


That gospel needs nothing to confirm it in any way,and that is because the "gospel of grace" comes in its own power and in the Holy Spirit:

....how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.


So if we are going to follow Paul we must believe what he says. Not only says, in light of 1 Cor. 11:1, but also follow his example--casting out demons and healing the sick....

Unfinished homework:

The Spirit of God has given His Body gifts, gifts that include the gift of miracles, see 1 Cor. 12, Gal 3:5, Romans 12....the burden of proof lies with you Jerry to provide the Scriptural evidence that these miracles and spiritual gifts were taken from the Body.

Jerry, think this through Biblically, at least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Jerry, your homework is this: are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Perhaps more silence from Jerry?

Jerry Shugart
February 19th, 2004, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by freelight

Hi Jerry,

There are many baptisms.
freelight,

If there are many baptisms now why does Paul say that there is but one?

In His grace,--Jerry

Freak
February 19th, 2004, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

freelight,

If there are many baptisms now why does Paul say that there is but one?

In His grace,--Jerry What baptism did Paul baptized here:

I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Jerry Shugart
February 19th, 2004, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Freak
This discussion is about miracles and spiritual gifts not baptisms.
Freak,

Do you not understand that the "baptism with the Holy Spirit" performed by the Lord Jesus is in regard to the sign gifts?

The Lord Jesus told His disciples to wait in Jerusalem,then told them,"ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days hence"(Acts1:5).

And the Apostles knew that this baptism was in regard to the sign gifts.Peter said:

"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy"(Acts2:16-18).

This is the baptism with the Spirit.But you do not even seem to understand this.You say,"This discussion is about miracles and spiritual gifts not baptisms."

Paul says that there is only one baptism at the present time.And that baptism is performed by the Holy Spirit when believers are identified with the life and death of the Lord Jesus Christ and placed in the CHurch,which is His Body.

I can see why you would deny that the miracles and signs were in reference to any baptism,but there can be no doubt that the "baptism with the Spirit" was in regard to the sign gifts.

And you cannot follow Paul if you continue to insist that there is more than one baptism at the present time.

In His grace,--Jerry

Freak
February 19th, 2004, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,

Do you not understand that the "baptism with the Holy Spirit" performed by the Lord Jesus is in regard to the sign gifts?

The New Covenant, Jerry, specifically commands its readers (those who had been indwelt with the Holy Spirit upon conversion) to "seek," "desire earnestly," "rekindle" and "employ" certain "miraculous" elements (1 Cor 12:3 1; 14:1, 4, 5, and 39; 2 Tm 1:6; 1 Pt 4: 10, cf. Jn 14:12-14; 15:7; 6:23-24--ask for "anything" in the context of the Spirit's descent to the disciples, Jn 3:21-22). These commands were for those who were baptized by the Holy Spirit upon conversion. This is the point you are clearly missing.

Secondly, the Body of Christ has been given the gift of healing, the gift of miracles, etc.. for the edification of the Body...

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.

Jerry, the Spirit of God has given His Body gifts, gifts that include the gift of miracles....the burden of proof lies with you Jerry to provide the Scriptural evidence that these miracles and spiritual gifts were taken from the Body. You haven't proven from the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit withdrew His gifts to the Body.

Paul was writing to a Body of believers who were already indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon their conversion when, he stated at least six times in his writings, commands for Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Jerry, your homework is this: are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

freelight
February 20th, 2004, 12:30 AM
Hi Jerry,

The baptism of the Spirit by the Lord Jesus as prophesied by John the Baptist was not necessarily just for sign-gifts....and was then to fade out or cease. The Lord Jesus is the baptizer with the Holy Spirit and fire. He still baptizes.

There are many kinds of baptisms(Heb. 6:2) - Paul baptized in water ....and also spoke of the spirit-baptism in Christ. If you take the context of Eph 4:1-6 .....you will find that Paul is emphasizing the Unity of the Spirit - the oneness of God and the salvation that is in Christ - he continues one with this idea of oneness/unity and includes 'one baptism' as a feature along with these other singular items which share a relative Unity. Paul synergizes his own concept of Spirit-baptism in Christ......and of course this is a unitarian work. Flowing in the consistency of Pauls other teachings.......he maintains that the Spirit is ever at work in the Body.....and relates the charismas and functions of the Spirit which operate within her. These spiritual operations have not ceased....as the Spirit has not been taken away...and the body needs these gifts for edification, enlightenment, empowerment and for her own enrichment.....until that which is perfect is fully manifest. Those who deny that these gifts are still operative in the church are spiritually bereft and blind - but as shared previously....'to each according to his faith'. It is sad...that many may not have the faith to accept what their Lord has freely given....as is obvious by common sense, scriptural instruction, what is right, seeming and logical.


The Lord Jesus is baptizing today - He immerses with-in the Holy Spirit those who receive Him. John had his baptism unto repentance. Jesus has his baptism with the Holy Spirit. Pauls concept of baptism includes both aspects of these prototypes.....yet his focuses on a spiritual immersion in Christ...where a believer puts on Christ.....and Christ is immersed into the believer. Thru these baptisms we see that repentance is the first step. Then acceptance of the MEssiah...who then immerses the believer in the Holy Spirit. Paul then according to his gospel......teaches that one is immersed into CHrist upon conversion...and takes on CHrist - a spiritual immersion. One is put into Christ...and CHrist is put into them. The emphasis is 'IN' Christ. So...we have baptisms of repentance, Spirit and fire...and in the Christ. These are all features of the universal baptism into God.

John said the Christ comes and he will immerse you in the Spirit and fire. This he has done...and is doing. The empowering anointing of the Spirit is granted inherently in this baptism! The deposit of power/authority and all administrations inhere in this Spirit-sealing. The faithful receive these divine gifts and thru faith appropriate them by divine Will. They are given for service....and the ministers of God are equipped thereby. This is only right, seeming and logical for His grace supplies all things.

May the Spirit of truth open to us the vision of the Christ and his church.....expanding our capacities to see, realize, intuit, understand...and by faith....take up the Spirit-endowments which are ours in Christ to the glory of His Name.




paul

1Way
February 20th, 2004, 01:00 AM
Paul brazenly brags with thanksgiving unto God for not baptizing very many people, and that God did not send him to baptize, but to preach the gospel, ...


1Co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name. 16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other. 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. Notice that God through Paul contrasts water baptism against preaching the gospel unto salvation.

Conversely in the circumcision writings,
Mr 1:4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Lu 3:3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins,
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. we find water baptism was not excluded from the formula for the gospel unto salvation, it was included. Yet another great example of the differences between the circumcision and uncircumcision teachings! Today under the authority given to Paul alone to give us in the dispensation of ďnot previously prophesiedĒ ďmysteryĒ and ďgraceĒ, we have only one baptism (Eph 4.5), and that is spiritual in Christ. Thus to promote water baptism is to promote the common confusion between the two very different sorts of gospel messages between the circ and uncirc believers.

godrulz
February 20th, 2004, 01:25 AM
Paul's statement that he preached the gospel and not baptized is a principle against baptismal regeneration. Paul, himself, did not baptize in that specific instance, but it does not mean he never baptized or that other leaders/believers did not baptize the recipients of Paul's message. I would not read too much into the statement in an isolated context. Other verses must be considered to decide if believer's were to be baptized or if there was a different dispensation. It is not normative dispensationalism to deny the validity of believer's baptism today (Enyart's view is not common...cf. Dispensational Baptists who are very strong on baptism as a step of discipleship vs salvation).

1Way
February 20th, 2004, 01:30 AM
I have not been sent to baptize, ďbut to preach the gospelĒ

(verses)

Repent ďand be baptizedĒ for the remission of sins.

I see no reading into what was plainly taught, your mind must be loosing focus to something else other than Godís word, because I see no reading into what was being said, I basically repeated the same teachings and just compared them together. Paul says that water baptism is not part of the gospel, yet the circ writes established that it was part of their gospel.

If I was you, I'd be careful of weeding out from what is in God's word.

Freak
February 20th, 2004, 05:50 AM
Gentleman, I would ask that we stay focused on the topic of the thread. Thanks.

godrulz
February 20th, 2004, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by 1Way

I have not been sent to baptize, ďbut to preach the gospelĒ

(verses)

Repent ďand be baptizedĒ for the remission of sins.

I see no reading into what was plainly taught, your mind must be loosing focus to something else other than Godís word, because I see no reading into what was being said, I basically repeated the same teachings and just compared them together. Paul says that water baptism is not part of the gospel, yet the circ writes established that it was part of their gospel.

If I was you, I'd be careful of weeding out from what is in God's word.

The Greek grammatical structure of Acts 2:38 links repentance with forgiveness of sins (cf. Lk. 24:47), not baptism (which would be an outward evidence of repentance, and not a condition of salvation). Proper exegesis would get around having to over-dispensationalize the Book of Acts for Jew and Gentile (i.e. Acts 2:38 applies to us in principle).

Jerry Shugart
February 20th, 2004, 11:03 AM
Originally posted by Freak
The New Covenant, Jerry, specifically commands its readers (those who had been indwelt with the Holy Spirit upon conversion) to "seek," "desire earnestly," "rekindle" and "employ" certain "miraculous" elements (1 Cor 12:3 1; 14:1, 4, 5, and 39; 2 Tm 1:6; 1 Pt 4: 10, cf. Jn 14:12-14; 15:7; 6:23-24--ask for "anything" in the context of the Spirit's descent to the disciples, Jn 3:21-22). These commands were for those who were baptized by the Holy Spirit upon conversion. This is the point you are clearly missing.
Freak,

Let us examine the verses that you provided which are contained in the epistles which were written after the Acts period had ended.

"Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands"(2Tim.1:6).

The "gift of God" in this instance is in regard to the "minisrty" which Timothy had been given.This is in regard to the following words of Paul that were addressed to Peter in his first epistle to him:

"Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery"(1Tim.4:14).

The reference here is to the fact that the laying on of hands is associated in the Scriptures with a continuity of leadership.(see Acts 6:6)

So this verse is not speaking of spiritual gifts at all.Here is the next verse you provided:

"As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God"(1Pet.4:10).

By the "context" we can see that Peter is speaking about the "gospel" and not any "spiritual gifts".Just a few verses earlier,he wrote,"for this cause was the gospel preached"(v.6(.

He tells believers that since they have received the gospel that they should minister that same gospel to others.

Now back to the subject of the "laying on of hands".As already demonstrated,the "laying on of hands" that was done by the "presbytery" is in regard to being made a minister in the Church.But in other places it is indeed associated with the receiving of the sign gifts.

And the author of Hebrews tells those who received his letter to leave these elementary principles and go on unto perfection:

"Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment"(Heb.6:1,2;NASB).

The author of these words is telling these Hebrew believers to "leave" behind these elementary things that were being taught at the time when the Kingdom was still being offered to Israel.These "elemenary" teachings have been replaced by a more perfect ministry.Therefore,he tells these believers to leave these things and to quit laying the foundation for the things in regard to the "laying on of hands".

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry Shugart
February 20th, 2004, 11:27 AM
Paul,

You said:

The baptism of the Spirit by the Lord Jesus as prophesied by John the Baptist was not necessarily just for sign-gifts....and was then to fade out or cease. The Lord Jesus is the baptizer with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Yes,John the Baptist prophesised the baptism with the Spirit.We also know that this baptism was prophesised by the OT prophets (Joel 2:28-32;Acts2:16-21).

So the "disprensation" in which the sign gifts were in reference to was a dispensation foretold by the OT prophets.But the dispensation for today was not according to any prophecy,but instead it was kept secret by the Lord until this secret was revealed to Paul.That is why the present dispensation is referred to as the "dispensation of the mystery":

"...and to make all men see what is the dispensation of the mystery which for ages hath been hid in God who created all things"(Eph.3:9;ASV).

Those who think that the sign gifts are for today are attempting to put the things which belonged to a prophesised dispensation into a dispensation that was not prophesised.

We are to "rightly divide" the Scriptures,and that includes rightly dividing the things which belong in one dispensation from those things which belong in others.Nothing but confusion occurs when one attempts to make the things of a prophesised dispensation to be a part of a dispensation that was not prophesised.

In His grace,--Jerry

godrulz
February 20th, 2004, 11:38 AM
The Church Age was a 'mystery' in the valley of the mountain peaks of revealed prophecy (between first and second coming of Christ). This does not mean that Paul's teaching for the edification of the Church does not apply to the Church Age (e.g. I Cor. 12-14 are principles about the use and misuse of spiritual gifts...it does not argue against their validity for the Church Age).

Jerry Shugart
February 20th, 2004, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by godrulz
The Church Age was a 'mystery' in the valley of the mountain peaks of revealed prophecy (between first and second coming of Christ).
godrulz,

It was the ministry to preach the "gospel of grace" that was a mystery.

This does not mean that Paul's teaching for the edification of the Church does not apply to the Church Age (e.g. I Cor. 12-14 are principles about the use and misuse of spiritual gifts...it does not argue against their validity for the Church Age).
The gift signs were clearly associated with Israel,and as long as the Kingdom continued to be offered to Israel these sign gifts remained in force.But after Acts 28 these sign gifts are never again mentioned by Paul in his epistles.

So long as the gospel was being proclaimed especially to the covenant people, miracles were abundant. It was primarily to the covenant people that Christ came. "Salvation is of the Jews," the Lord declared. "I am not sent, but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." "Christ was a minister of the circumcision, for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers" (Romans 15:8). That ministry, therefore, had special reference to the Scriptures which testified of Him and which it was His mission to fulfill.

As I said before,the ministry that was associated with the sign gifts was a prophesised ministry,while the present ministry was never prophesised.And we can see clealy that the miracles of healing began to fade away after the gospel ceased going to the nation of Israel.

Paul could not heal Epaphroditus when he lay "sick nigh unto death" by his side at Rome. At a still later date, he had to leave Trophimus lying sick at Miletum (Philippians 2:27; 2 Timothy 4:20). A miracle at the court of Nero might have shaken the world. Never was an evidential miracle more needed, if beliefs and theories about miracles be true. But no miracle occurred.

At the present time there is only "one baptism",and that is clearly the baptism performed by the Holy Spirit when the believer is identified with the life and death of the Lord Jesus and placed in the Church,which is His Body.And that completely eliminates the baptism with the Spirit whereby believers during the Acts period received these sign gifts.

In His grace,--Jerry

freelight
February 20th, 2004, 12:46 PM
Jerry,

In Pauls address to the Corinthians(1 Cor. 12-14).....he shares what God has given the church as far as spiritual ministrations - also confirming at the same time that by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, - Jews, greeks, slaves, free, etc. - all have been made to drink into one Spirit. He lists the charismas of the spirit - not all are specifically 'sign-gifts' but some may certainly be 'signs' to some, especially unbelievers. Paul speaks of the management, ordering of these charismas as they are to operate in the church. He never indicates that the charismas are going to cease - The Spirit still wills, works and operates within the body of Christ.....for we are His living body. The manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all. If you look over the gifts of the Spirit listed by Paul that God has given to the church....most operate for the edification of the church -faith, words of wisdom, knowledge; gifts of healing, miracles, prophecy, tongues, interpretations,apostles, prophets, teachers, helps, administrations, etc. These belong to us for the edification of the Body in Love.....as we all as members with different gifts unite as one in the Unity of God - for there is only one Spirit - but many ministrations.

We open and allow in our faith and understanding spiritually and intellectually for the fullness and liberty of the Holy Spirits gifts to flow as He wills among His people. The body still needs perfecting, edification, revelation, teaching, enrichment, empowering - these are provided for by unctions of the Holy Spirit.


Now.....why would anyone who calls himself a christ-ian believe otherwise? and say we no longer need the Spirit? I will add that the Spirits power and presence is without measure in Christ...and that faith does avail and is essential in spiritual matters in ones relationship to God. It is only right, seeming and logical that the body of Christ have all the workings of the Spirit in her care and ministry.



paul

Jerry Shugart
February 20th, 2004, 01:10 PM
Paul,

Why would anyone who calls himself a christ-ian believe that there is more than one baptism at the present time when Paul says that there is only one?

The sign gifts were clearly in reference to a "baptism",and that baptism is not the "one baptism" of which Paul speaks.For example,there were some men who had already been given life by the Spirit and were no doubt indwelled by the Holy Spirit,but they had not yet received the "gifts of the Holy Spirit" (see Acts19:1-6).

It was not until Paul had laid his hands on them that they received the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

So there is a difference between the baptism performed by the Holy Spirit when the believer is identified with the life and death of the Lord Jesus Christ and placed into the Body of Christ and the baptism with the Holy Spirit when the believer receives sign gifts.

Why do you continue to insist that at the present time there is more than one "baptism" that applies to the Body of Christ despite the words of Paul that at this time there is only "one baptism"?

In His grace,--Jerry

1Way
February 20th, 2004, 02:18 PM
Godrulz Ė You said
The Greek grammatical structure of Acts 2:38 links repentance with forgiveness of sins (cf. Lk. 24:47), not baptism (which would be an outward evidence of repentance, and not a condition of salvation). Proper exegesis would get around having to over-dispensationalize the Book of Acts for Jew and Gentile (i.e. Acts 2:38 applies to us in principle). so by your voiding of scripture what it literally says, and avoiding my demonstration of biblical repetitive consistency, for you, some sort of grammer structure supposedly overturns what the text actually says. That is simply foolishness, there is no grammatical rule to disqualify the literal meaning conveyed. The context says that water baptism was included in the literal instruction for the remission of sins, and it does so as demonstrated numerously and consistently. You canít make Godís teaching go away by pretending some fictional ďgrammatical exclusionĒ,

or saying that what God plainly says is does not conform to proper exegesis,

nor is this over-dispensationalizing anything, I am quoting to you Godís word and simply saying that God meant what He said when He said
Mr 1:4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Lu 3:3 And he went into all the region around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins,
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. None of your supposed reasoning holds much sense let alone interpretational integrity. And you used more truth claims (and extremely bogus ones at that) in place of your support reasoning!

And what do I do? I show you Godís word that consistently demonstrates that water baptism was required for salvation in the gospels which are circumcision writings which had a conditional salvation of works plus faith, see the following.


Jesus taught salvation by keeping the commandments prior to the dispensation of mystery.

Mt 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one [is] good but One, [that is], God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Jesus through James taught salvation by faith plus works required, prior to (and after) the dispensation of mystery.

(Jas 2:14-24 NKJV)
ď14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believeóóand tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.Ē But God through Paul teaches the exact opposite about works, that we are saved by grace through faith only, works are excluded, not included in this dispensation of mystery and grace.
Ro 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. In the dispensation of the mystery and Grace which God gave to Paul alone (the one single uncircumcision writer) to give to us, God teaches faith alone for salvation, faith and no works for salvation, the circumcision writers teach it must be faith and works together for salvation.

I am not resting my understanding on manmade ideas like godrulz is, as anyone can clearly see, my sourcing is Godís word.

If you have nothing more than what you have said, then thanks for loudly affirming my understanding of the texts involved by resorting to so much baloney for your counter points, Godís word remains true despite your efforts and so called arguments which are nothing much more than unfounded unbiblical claims.

So I repeat my caution to you for actively being found taking away from the word of God in order to protect your presuppositions. I said
I have not been sent to baptize, ďbut to preach the gospelĒ

(verses)

Repent ďand be baptizedĒ for the remission of sins.

I see no reading into what was plainly taught, your mind must be loosing focus to something else other than Godís word, because I see no reading into what was being said, I basically repeated the same teachings and just compared them together. Paul says that water baptism is not part of the gospel, yet the circ writes established that it was part of their gospel.

If I was you, I'd be careful of weeding out from what is in God's word. You stand condemned for taking away from the word of God, and replacing the meaning with nothing. Baptize was and will again be a part of the gospel for the remission of sins. Donít violate scripture.

Jerry Shugart
February 20th, 2004, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by 1Way
And what do I do? I show you Godís word that consistently demonstrates that water baptism was required for salvation in the gospels which are circumcision writings which had a conditional salvation of works plus faith, see the following.
1Way,

This is not a thread to discuss these beliefs of yours.I have already started a thread that proves that the "baptism of repentance" was not in regard to salvation.This thread is on the "General Theology" forum and you are invited to continue this discussion in regard to water baptism on that thread.

In His grace,--Jerry

Freak
February 20th, 2004, 03:56 PM
Jerry, I have noticed you still haven't dealt with the Scriptural evidence for the continuation of miracles....

I stated in my last post: Paul was writing to a Body of believers who were already indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon their conversion when, he stated at least six times in his writings, commands for Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Jerry, your homework is this: are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.


Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,


"Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands"(2Tim.1:6). The gift is referring to the gifts & ministry of the Holy Spirit

The "gift of God" in this instance is in regard to the "minisrty" which Timothy had been given. The ministry that was given to Timothy was the ministry of the preaching of the gospel, casting out of demons and healing the sick. For Paul tells the Body which would include Timothy to "Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ." Paul preached the gospel, healed the sick and cast out demons. Paul was simply following the example of Christ--who preached the gospel, cast out demons, and healed the sick. Paul in this passage encouraged Timothy to follow, essentially, the ministry of Jesus.


"As every man hath received the gift, even so minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God"(1Pet.4:10).
Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament
Gift (xarisma).
Late N.T. word (in late papyri) from xarizomai, to give graciously. It is used here by Peter as one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:4,9,29-31; Romans 12:6). We are to employ whatever gift we possess to the glory of God. A gift which may include the gift of healing or the gift of miracles.

Moving on...

the Body of Christ has been given the gift of healing, the gift of miracles, etc.. for the edification of the Body...

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.

Jerry, the Spirit of God has given His Body gifts, gifts that include the gift of miracles....the burden of proof lies with you Jerry to provide the Scriptural evidence that these miracles and spiritual gifts were taken from the Body. You haven't proven from the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit withdrew His gifts to the Body.

Freak
February 20th, 2004, 04:03 PM
Jerry, I'm still waiting for the Scriptural evidence that speaks of the gifts of healing & miracles being taken from the Body of Christ.

You may refer to this:

Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child,, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love."


For the record let's deal with this. Jerry, when the perfect comes...then we shall see "face to face" seems to refer to a personal encounter; at least, that seems to be how God uses the phrase in His Word. If the position is taken that the "perfect" is the completed Bible, which you may do, how then do we encounter, personally, God in the manner as the phrase suggests: an encounter with a person? Seeing Christ face to face occurs when He returns. Wanted to clear this passage up for you.

freelight
February 20th, 2004, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Paul,

Why would anyone who calls himself a christ-ian believe that there is more than one baptism at the present time when Paul says that there is only one?

The sign gifts were clearly in reference to a "baptism",and that baptism is not the "one baptism" of which Paul speaks.For example,there were some men who had already been given life by the Spirit and were no doubt indwelled by the Holy Spirit,but they had not yet received the "gifts of the Holy Spirit" (see Acts19:1-6).

It was not until Paul had laid his hands on them that they received the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

So there is a difference between the baptism performed by the Holy Spirit when the believer is identified with the life and death of the Lord Jesus Christ and placed into the Body of Christ and the baptism with the Holy Spirit when the believer receives sign gifts.

Why do you continue to insist that at the present time there is more than one "baptism" that applies to the Body of Christ despite the words of Paul that at this time there is only "one baptism"?

In His grace,--Jerry



)=========== Jerry,..............I see both baptisms which you refer to above as transpiring today. One can relegate baptisms, outpourrings, etc. to dispensations if they like. Yes, you may choose to believe that baptism with the Holy Spirit and gifts thru the laying on of hands was only effectual among the apostles - but the Holy Spirit hasnt changed...and spirit-anointings are still passed from one to another thru the laying on of hands and other means. We advocates of the miracle power of God and faith do not limit the Spirits power, functions or administrations. Of course there is one baptism just as there is one Spirit that we are all made to drink from. All thru faith are baptized into Christ in the Spirit - and.....in this immersion and partaking of the Spirit...the operations, anointings, charismas and dynamics of the Holy Ghost are potently alive! The faithful and spiritual can flow in these gifts.....as the Spirit wills.

I believe the church of Christ has been wholly immersed in the Holy Spirit! We HAVE THE FULLNESS. The NT proclaims this. We only need to walk in its reality and by faith live in this dimension of abundance. The Spirit and the gifts are ours! Martin Luther penned a mighty truth in the renewal of the Reformation with this hallmark hymn -


A mighty fortress is our God, a bulwark never failing;
Our helper He, amid the flood of mortal ills prevailing:
For still our ancient foe doth seek to work us woe;
His craft and power are great, and, armed with cruel hate,
On earth is not his equal.

Did we in our own strength confide, our striving would be losing;
Were not the right Man on our side, the Man of Godís own choosing:
Dost ask who that may be? Christ Jesus, it is He;
Lord Sabaoth, His Name, from age to age the same,
And He must win the battle.

And though this world, with devils filled, should threaten to undo us,
We will not fear, for God hath willed His truth to triumph through us:
The Prince of Darkness grim, we tremble not for him;
His rage we can endure, for lo, his doom is sure,
One little word shall fell him.

That word above all earthly powers, no thanks to them, abideth;
THE SPIRIT AND THE GIFTS ARE OURS through Him Who with us sideth:
Let goods and kindred go, this mortal life also;
The body they may kill: Godís truth abideth still,
His kingdom is forever.




paul

1Way
February 21st, 2004, 12:26 AM
Sorry all for going astray, I responded to Jerryís thread on baptism, letís take that issue over there, this is about miracles not baptism.

I did not notice the several requests to cease and get back on topic, it did get off topic however tangetially connected and interesting the discussion. (chuckles) Thanks for your patience as we all get back on track.

Jerry Shugart
February 21st, 2004, 10:58 AM
Originally posted by Freak
Jerry, I have noticed you still haven't dealt with the Scriptural evidence for the continuation of miracles....
Freak,

I have already demonstrated that the "baptism with the Holy Spirit" is no longer for the Church today.Today there is only "one baptism".

I stated in my last post: Paul was writing to a Body of believers who were already indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon their conversion when, he stated at least six times in his writings, commands for Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9).
Yes,Paul "believed" what he was told by the Lord Jesus so we should believe Paul when he says that there is but "one baptism" for the church today.

Jerry, your homework is this: are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.
Freak,my homework for you is to get out a dictionary and look up the meaning of the word "one".When you do that then tell me what Paul meant when he said that there is only "one baptism" for the church today.

The gift is referring to the gifts & ministry of the Holy Spirit
That is ridiculous.The gift is clearly only in reference to his ministry.According to you we must believe that the laying of the hands by the "presbytery" is in regard to receiving the sign gifts.

Paul in this passage encouraged Timothy to follow, essentially, the ministry of Jesus.
You just cannot seem to see the "progressive" revelation of Scripture.If we are to follow the ministry of the Lord while He walked on the earth then we would have to place ourselves under the law.Here is what the Lord Jesus said:

"Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do"(Mt.23:1-3).

It is clear that Timothy was not to follow the ministry of the Lord Jesus while He walked on this earth.

the Body of Christ has been given the gift of healing, the gift of miracles, etc.. for the edification of the Body...
Yes,at one time when there was more than one baptism those in the church did have the sign gifts.But now that there is only "one baptism" those sign gifts are no longer for the church.

Jerry, the Spirit of God has given His Body gifts, gifts that include the gift of miracles....the burden of proof lies with you Jerry to provide the Scriptural evidence that these miracles and spiritual gifts were taken from the Body. You haven't proven from the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit withdrew His gifts to the Body.
I have already proven that at this time there is only "one baptism".It is your burden of proof to demonstrate that Paul was wrong and at the present time there are more than "one baptism".

Jerry, when the perfect comes...then we shall see "face to face" seems to refer to a personal encounter; at least, that seems to be how God uses the phrase in His Word.
Yes,when the Lord comes then we will no longer have knowledge "in part".In these verses Paul was contrasting the "sign gifts" with "faith,hope and love".

He is not speaking specifically when the sign gifts will pass away,but instead he is saying that by the time that we will see the Lord face to face the sign gifts will be no longer needed.But that does not rule out the possibility that the sign gifts would cease before we face the Lord.

And as I have already demonstrated,the author of Hebrews tells the Jewish believers to "leave" the elementary things of Christ and pass on to maturity.And let us compare the words of Paul in regard to the sign gifts:

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things"(1Cor.13:11).

The autor of Hebrews uses similiar language in the verses I have quoted.He calls these Jewish believers "babes" and tells them that "solid food belongs to them that are of "full age" (Heb.6:14).

He then says:

"Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment"(Heb.6:1,2;NASB).

All the things which the author of Hebrews mentions were part and parcel of the "gospel of the Kingdom",including the "laying on of hands" which was in egard to the "sign gifts".

These things are not for today,or else the author of Hebrews would not have told the Jewish believers to "leave" these elementary things.

In His grace,--Jerry

freelight
February 21st, 2004, 12:58 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart


Yes,at one time when there was more than one baptism those in the church did have the sign gifts.But now that there is only "one baptism" those sign gifts are no longer for the church.

I have already proven that at this time there is only "one baptism".It is your burden of proof to demonstrate that Paul was wrong and at the present time there are more than "one baptism".




)========== Hi Jerry,..........you are qualifying things according to 'baptisms' which I believe is not really necessary here - kind of like dispensationalizing. We are baptized into the Christ via the Spirit, of course. There is one baptism in that sense...for there is only One Spirit, One God, one faith, one Lord, etc. God is One - this is a unitarian truth. Still.....some are water baptized as a sign of repentance, conversion, dedication, etc......and the Lord Jesus still baptizes us in a sense with the Holy Spirit and fire - this not only during conversion...but also for special anointments for service, ordination, unique impartations , etc. The Lord is ever at work among his people...and the Spirits ministrations are manifold.




Originally posted by Jerry Shugart [/b

And as I have already demonstrated,the author of Hebrews tells the Jewish believers to "leave" the elementary things of Christ and pass on to maturity.And let us compare the words of Paul in regard to the sign gifts:

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things"(1Cor.13:11).

The autor of Hebrews uses similiar language in the verses I have quoted.He calls these Jewish believers "babes" and tells them that "solid food belongs to them that are of "full age" (Heb.6:14).

He then says:

"Therefore [B]leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment"(Heb.6:1,2;NASB).

All the things which the author of Hebrews mentions were part and parcel of the "gospel of the Kingdom",including the "laying on of hands" which was in regard to the "sign gifts".

These things are not for today,or else the author of Hebrews would not have told the Jewish believers to "leave" these elementary things.





)========== In regard to Heb 6:1,2.........the author is simply referring to leaving 'the discussion' of the elementary principles of Christ (I have NKJV) so he can continue expounding on meatier doctrine which was his original intent - for a little while before he rebukes his hearers for being babes in understanding - they should be teachers by now...but they need someone again to explain the first principles and oracles of God to them. Lets read the authors message 'in context'.

"Therefore leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection(maturity), not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith towards God, of the doctrine of baptism(S), of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. AND THIS WE WILL DO IF GOD PERMITS....." - Heb 6:1-3 (NKJV)


One needs to read the chapter before 6 and a little after your quote to get the context. You will notice these things(which the author lists) ARE the elementary principles of Christ - they are the first principles - foundational doctrines! Lets read in context. The author rebukes them for still needing to know them....let alone what he is trying to teach them....BUT...he then insists on leaving THE DISCUSSION of these elementary principles(things)...to get back to his intentional subject at hand....which is Christs high priesthood role/function as a priest after the order of Melchizidek.
The author is not saying that these principles have passed away or have been left behind now at all....but he is leaving these topics of discussion for now in his address to his hearers.

As shared before.....sometimes the Holy Spirit (as in measures, anointings, impartations) can be passed from one to another thru the laying on of hands - the gifts of healing and miracles are sometimes also administered this way. Ordaining others often includes the laying on of hands - there are many impartations and ministrations thru this means.

You have not proved by scripture the cessation of the gifts of the Holy Spirit...but only shared your logic of their cessation relative to baptisms(dispensational) and liberal interpretations of a few verses - one being Heb. 6:1-3 which has been explained.


paul

Freak
February 21st, 2004, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,

I have already demonstrated that the "baptism with the Holy Spirit" is no longer for the Church today.Today there is only "one baptism"

The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Now the body is not made up of one part but of many.

We are baptized by the Holy Spirit into one Body when we place our faith in Christ.


Yes,Paul "believed" what he was told by the Lord Jesus so we should believe Paul when he says that there is but "one baptism" for the church today. There is but one baptism into one Body. Stop the smoking screens.


Freak,my homework for you is to get out a dictionary and look up the meaning of the word "one".When you do that then tell me what Paul meant when he said that there is only "one baptism" for the church today. Homework completed.

There is but one baptism into the body. That is correct. I never claimed anything else, Jerry.


According to you we must believe that the laying of the hands by the "presbytery" is in regard to receiving the sign gifts. I've never believed that. You're attributing something to me that I have never stated.


You just cannot seem to see the "progressive" revelation of Scripture. Progressive revelation points to the fact that the Body of Christ has been bestowed gifts--gifts of healing, gifts of miracles, etc....

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines. The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.

Jerry, the Spirit of God has given His Body gifts, gifts that include the gift of miracles....the burden of proof lies with you Jerry to provide the Scriptural evidence that these miracles and spiritual gifts were taken from the Body. You haven't proven from the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit withdrew His gifts to the Body.


If we are to follow the ministry of the Lord while He walked on the earth then we would have to place ourselves under the law. Use some common & Biblical sense. Paul understood there was 2 covenants. Some teachings were reserved for the Old Covenant (like what Jesus told his disciples in that passage to do, you referred to) and others for the New Covenant and some for both. For example:

Under the Old Covenant we are told that God's people ought to love one another. The New Covenant teaches the same. The Old Covenant teaches tithes. The New Covenant doesn't. Under the Old and New Covenants we are told to heal the sick and to perform miracles. Think this through Biblically, in light of the 2 covenants....

The Old Covenant...

Then Jesus went around teaching from village to village. Calling the Twelve to him, he sent them out two by two and gave them authority over evil spirits. These were his instructions: "Take nothing for the journey except a staff--no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. Wear sandals but not an extra tunic. Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them."
They went out and preached that people should repent. They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them.

The New Covenant...

There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Jerry, there is no Biblical warrant to remove certain gifts from the Body just because you don't like them. You have blasphemed against the working of the Holy Spirit, the giver of these gifts to the Body.



It is clear that Timothy was not to follow the ministry of the Lord Jesus while He walked on this earth. Like having compassion on the mulitudes? Like bestowing mercy? Like bestowing grace? Like bestowing truth? Like bestowing deliverance to the captives? Like healing the broken-hearted? Like these things?

You completely ignored the words of the apostle Paul. Which doesn't surprise me because the Scripture, as written by Paul, defeats your unBiblical views on this subject.

Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings, just as I passed them on to you.

Jesus loved people. Paul followed that example and loved people. Jesus healed the sick. Paul followed that example and healed the sick. Jesus cast out demons. Paul followed the example of Jesus and cast out demons. Now, Paul, in speaking to the church exhorted the Body to follow his example. Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Jerry, your homework is this: are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him. ANSWER THE QUESTION!


But now that there is only "one baptism" those sign gifts are no longer for the church. Note: No Biblical foundation for this belief just simple nonsense from you. Figures.


It is your burden of proof to demonstrate that Paul was wrong and at the present time there are more than "one baptism". I believe there is but one baptism into the Body by the Holy Spirit through faith in Christ....What's wrong with you? It reminds me when you asked me this earlier:


Did the "cloven tongues like as of fire" sit upon you.Did this things "appear" to you as they did on the day of Pentecost? To which I answered:

Jerry, I've never spoken in tongues so why would "cloven tongues like as fire" sit upon me?


These kinds of remarks/questions by you leads me to wonder if...

a. you're truly reading my posts?
b. you're simply confused by your own beliefs.
c. you're desperately looking to prove your fallacies by stating misinformation about me.
d. you're truly an angry believer and despise the gifts of the Holy Spirit and you are willing to attribute things to me that are truly untrue.

Perhaps d.?


But that does not rule out the possibility that the sign gifts would cease before we face the Lord. Note: No Biblical foundation for this subjective belief of yours.


And as I have already demonstrated,the author of Hebrews tells the Jewish believers to "leave" the elementary things of Christ and pass on to maturity. God is calling you to maturity, Jerry. The Lord Jesus examplified this maturity through His ministry--of meeting people needs--preaching the gospel, healing the sick, teaching, delivering souls from the enemy.

The New Covenant, the superior covenant, teaches:

In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction.

Paul was encouraging Timothy to Preach the Word. This includes the teachings of spiritual gifts-gifts that include the gift of miracles, the gifts of healing, etc...

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Reminds me much of you. You have chosen to remove some gifts from the Body (this btw is not putting up with sound doctrine) where is no Biblical warrant to do so.

They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry.

All the duties of ministry. This includes the ministry of healing and miracles for God gives His body these gifts to minister to those needing help.

Unfinished homework:

Paul was writing to a Body of believers who were already indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon their conversion when, he stated at least six times in his writings, commands for Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Jerry, your homework is this: are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Jerry, the Spirit of God has given His Body gifts, gifts that include the gift of miracles....the burden of proof lies with you Jerry to provide the Scriptural evidence that these miracles and spiritual gifts were taken from the Body. You haven't proven from the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit withdrew His gifts to the Body.

Jerry Shugart
February 21st, 2004, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Freak
There is but one baptism into one Body. Stop the smoking screens.
Freak,

Paul says that at the present time there is but "one baptism".PERIOD.

"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all"(Eph.4:4-6).

If we use your reasoning then we can also say that there is one Holy Spirit in regard to the baptism into the Body and there are other Holy Spirits.But we both know that that is ridiculous.There is but "one baptism" for now and there is but one Holy Spirit.

If quoting the words of Paul is a "smokescreen",then I plead guilty.Here Paul says that at the present time there is but "one baptism",but you say that this means that "there is one baptism" into one Body".

The words of Paul are in regard to the "unity of the Spirit".When we start to add other "baptisms" to the Church we began to disrupt this unity.

Progressive revelation points to the fact that the Body of Christ has been bestowed gifts--gifts of healing, gifts of miracles, etc....
We can see the "progress" of revelation when we see that the things in regard to the "gospel of the kingdom" are no longer to be utilized in the present dispensation.The author of Hebrews makes this plain when he tells the Jewish believers to "leave" those things and go on to maturity:

"Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment"(Heb.6:1,2;NASB).

The words in regard to "instructions about washings" and "repentance from dead works" are in reference to the "baptism of repentance".That is one baptism that is not for the church today.The words in regard to the "laying on of hands" is in regard to the "baptism with the Spirit" which was the means of receiving the "sign gifts".This is another baptism which has no place for the church today.

Jerry, the Spirit of God has given His Body gifts, gifts that include the gift of miracles....the burden of proof lies with you Jerry to provide the Scriptural evidence that these miracles and spiritual gifts were taken from the Body. You haven't proven from the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit withdrew His gifts to the Body.
At one time these gifts were given to the Body.But now there is but one baptism,and that baptism is not in regard to the "baptism with the Spirit".

I have already demonstrated that the author of Hebrews told the Jewish believers to leave the other baptisms behind.But you continue to insist that there is more than "one baptism" for the church today.

Jerry, there is no Biblical warrant to remove certain gifts from the Body just because you don't like them. You have blasphemed against the working of the Holy Spirit, the giver of these gifts to the Body.
So now you want to accuse me of blasphemy against the working of the Holy Spirit.But have I not already told you that I am merely following the words of John when he says to "test" the spirits to determine whether or not they are of God?:

"Beloved, believe not every spirit, but test the spirits whether they are of God"(1Jn.4:1).

And by the words of the Savior we can also know that in all instances where someone casts out demons or thinks they are casting out demons that it is not necessarily of God:

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out demons? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"(Mt.7:22,23).

I have only done what John tells us to do by "testing" these other spirits and I have concluded that they are not of God.

You completely ignored the words of the apostle Paul. Which doesn't surprise me because the Scripture, as written by Paul, defeats your unBiblical views on this subject.
It is you who is forced to add to the words of Paul in regard to the "one baptism".

More later...

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry Shugart
February 21st, 2004, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by freelight
The author is not saying that these principles have passed away or have been left behind now at all....but he is leaving these topics of discussion for now in his address to his hearers.
Paul,

The author of Hebrews tells the Jewish believers to "leave" the elementary teachings in regard to Jesus Christ and to go on to maturity.

The Greek word translated "leave" means "to give up,keep no longer"("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

He says to cease (not laying again) from the things which pertain to the elementary things in regard to the Lord Jesus and go on to maturity.And then he says,"And this we will do,if God permit"(Heb.6:1-2).

In His grace,--Jerry

1Way
February 21st, 2004, 02:34 PM
I "thought" we were supposed to be taking the baptism stuff over to Jerry's baptism thread in this very forum. ???

Jerry Shugart
February 21st, 2004, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by 1Way
I "thought" we were supposed to be taking the baptism stuff over to Jerry's baptism thread in this very forum. ???
1Way,

I have already answered your only post on that thead.I am waiting on your reply.???

In His grace,--Jerry

1Way
February 21st, 2004, 05:11 PM
Jerry I've been working on it most of thel day, see it "soon".

Freak
February 21st, 2004, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,

Paul says that at the present time there is but "one baptism".PERIOD. Yes, there is but one baptism--the baptism of the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ. Are you so dense that you don't see that I agree with you? Water baptism is simply symbolic and therefore not considered a baptism of any true significance.


There is but "one baptism" for now and there is but one Holy Spirit. I feel like I'm dealing with a 10 year old in talking with you.


If quoting the words of Paul is a "smokescreen",then I plead guilty. We're speaking of spiritual gifts not baptisms.


At one time these gifts were given to the Body.But now there is but one baptism,and that baptism is not in regard to the "baptism with the Spirit".

What about the question of whether the Bible, itself, speaks of a discontinuance of spiritual gifts, as you believe Jerry? Generally speaking, most argue this point based on Paul's statement in 1 Cor. 13: 10 which states: "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." The argument rests on the reference to "perfect." Proponents of this argument state that this is a reference to the closing or completion of the New Testament canon. However, contextually, this is a very weak argument. Most evangelical commentaries today, stay true to the text and admit this is a reference to the Second Coming of Christ, not to the completion of the canon of Holy Scripture. Again, there are a number of reasons cessationists argue against the continuation of spiritual gifts but lack biblical support. Jerry, you are lacking in Biblical support. It seems you're simply relying on your theological bias rather than presenting strong biblical injunctions against the continuance of sign gifts. Sad and pathetic on your part.


I have already demonstrated that the author of Hebrews told the Jewish believers to leave the other baptisms behind.But you continue to insist that there is more than "one baptism" for the church today. There is but one baptism into the Body.


So now you want to accuse me of blasphemy against the working of the Holy Spirit. Yes, you're blaspheming the Holy Spirit of God for your outright denial of God's Word on this subject. Renounce your man-made doctrines and embrace the Scriptural teachings on this subject.

Anyone reading the New Covenant, in particular, should have no problem discovering not only numerous examples of miracles in the form of healing, prophecy, tongues, etc., but clear instruction on the functioning of spiritual gifts in the church (e.g., the book of Acts, Romans 12: 6-8; 1 Cor. 12:4-11, 28-30; 13; 14; and Eph. 4:7-12). Spiritual gifts were bestowed upon the church, the Body of Christ, both as a witness to the unbelieving world and for empowerment and Jerry you have failed to provide any Scriptural evidence that these gifts were taken from the Body.


But have I not already told you that I am merely following the words of John when he says to "test" the spirits to determine whether or not they are of God? I have tested your view in light of Scripture and have been shown by the objective standard--the Scriptures--that your view is not of God. For the Holy Trinity inspired Paul to write concering the reality of the gift of miracles, for example, in the Body. See Rom. 12:6-8; 1 Cor. 12:8-10; 13:1-3; 13:8; 14:6; 14:26.


And by the words of the Savior we can also know that in all instances where someone casts out demons or thinks they are casting out demons that it is not necessarily of God. And we know from the Lord that there are some like yourself, Jerry, that operate against the Lord by forbidding the ministry of the Lord Jesus:

Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us.


I have only done what John tells us to do by "testing" these other spirits and I have concluded that they are not of God. I have proven through the internal witness of the Scriptures, that you have not been testing in light of the Scriptures but instead you have tested doctrine via your hunches and unbiblical bias.

So, moving on...

I'm still waiting for you to deal with these concerns of mine:

In the New Covenant...

There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Jerry, where is the Biblical warrant to remove certain gifts from the Scriptural record?

Paul was writing to a Body of believers who were already indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon their conversion when, he stated at least six times in his writings, commands for Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Jerry, your homework is this: are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Jerry, the Spirit of God has given His Body gifts, gifts that include the gift of miracles....the burden of proof lies with you Jerry to provide the Scriptural evidence that these miracles and spiritual gifts were taken from the Body. You haven't proven from the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit withdrew His gifts to the Body.

Jerry Shugart
February 22nd, 2004, 09:07 AM
Originally posted by Freak
Yes, there is but one baptism--the baptism of the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ. Are you so dense that you don't see that I agree with you? Water baptism is simply symbolic and therefore not considered a baptism of any true significance.
Freak,

I am surprised that you cannot discuss these matters as an adult.You prove that you must attempt to denigrate others in order to argue your points.

I feel like I'm dealing with a 10 year old in talking with you.

We're speaking of spiritual gifts not baptisms.
You just cannot seem to understand that the receiving of the sign gifts was accomplished through the "baptism with the Spirit".

You must have your two baptisms despite the fact that Paul says that at this time there is but one.

What about the question of whether the Bible, itself, speaks of a discontinuance of spiritual gifts, as you believe Jerry?
You ignore the verses that I provided from the book of Hebrews which demonstrate conclusively that the Jewish believers were told to discontinue the things in regard to the "gospel of the kingdom" such as "water baptism" and the "laying on of hands" which was in regard to receiving the sign gifts.

Jerry, you are lacking in Biblical support. It seems you're simply relying on your theological bias rather than presenting strong biblical injunctions against the continuance of sign gifts. Sad and pathetic on your part.
No,what is sad and pathetic is your unchristianlike assults on my character and your denial of the plain words of Paul that at this time there is but one baptism,and that one baptism is not the "baptism with the Spirit.

Yes, you're blaspheming the Holy Spirit of God for your outright denial of God's Word on this subject. Renounce your man-made doctrines and embrace the Scriptural teachings on this subject.
What I am presenting is not "man-made doctrines" but instead what I say is supported by the Scriptures.

Jerry, the Spirit of God has given His Body gifts, gifts that include the gift of miracles....the burden of proof lies with you Jerry to provide the Scriptural evidence that these miracles and spiritual gifts were taken from the Body. You haven't proven from the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit withdrew His gifts to the Body.
Freak,I have already given Scriptual evidence that there is but "one baptism" for this time.You either deny that the sign gifts were in regard to a "baptism" (despite the Scriptual evidence to the contrary) or else insist that there is indeed more than one baptism at the present time.Also,I have demonstrated that the author of Hebrews told the Jewish believers to leave the elementary things of Christ behind and go on to maturity.

In His grace,--Jerry

godrulz
February 22nd, 2004, 11:03 AM
A grammatical, historical, contextual, theological, literal study of Hebrews 6 would show that the Jewish believers are to leave their Old Covenant (OT) teachings/shadows for the reality of the risen Christ. It talks about baptismS, not New Covenant Christian believer's baptism. Jewish baptisms were not the same as Church baptism. Each of these elementary shadows had a corresponding NT truth that we are to practice or follow (e.g. they repented from dead works that lead to death; we repent from sin, rebellion, selfishness, rejection of the Messiah). The gist is that we are not to trust or be saved by the OT practices, but salvation is a relationship with the person of the Lord Jesus Christ. Hebrews is not just talking about first century practices that were left mid-Acts. The passage also talks about the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment. These teachings were not negated (except a wrong practice of them), but were considered 'elementary teachings about Christ' that were to be built upon. They are to move on to meat and not just milk, and to not trust their previous OT types/symbols now that the fulfillment is here.

Hebrews 6 is a warning to Jewish converts about apostasizing back to Judaism. It is not a proof-text against Christian baptism. Foisting a narrow brand of dispensationalism on to this passage resulting in a gospel for Jewish converts that differs from the gospel for Gentile converts in the early church is a poor hermeneutic and not warranted in the context.

Likewise, all uses of 'laying on of hands' does not refer to sign gifts. There was an OT practice of laying on of hands that was not identical to the Pauline teaching. One has to find out the cultural and historical significance of this OT practice and not confuse it with the NT version of it that is still normative for the Church today. It is sloppy exegesis to superficially read this passage and not make the distinction between the OT context alluded to and other unrelated didactic passages in the NT that are for all Christians through the centuries after the birth of the Church.

It seems to me the distinction is between OT (Jews) and NT (Christians) believers, not Jewish converts and Gentile converts resulting in much of the NT being not primarily for the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Gentile.

Freak
February 22nd, 2004, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,


You just cannot seem to understand that the receiving of the sign gifts was accomplished through the "baptism with the Spirit" Spiritual gifts were given by the triune God...

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Every gift, spiritual gifts included, come from God, not through the "laying of hands."

There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

You must have your two baptisms despite the fact that Paul says that at this time there is but one. For the Body there has been one baptism...the baptism of the Spirit inot the Body through faith in Christ...

Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- one Lord, one faith, one baptism...


You ignore the verses that I provided from the book of Hebrews which demonstrate conclusively that the Jewish believers were told to discontinue the things in regard to the "gospel of the kingdom" such as "water baptism" and the "laying on of hands" which was in regard to receiving the sign gifts. I ignored your reasoning because it stems from a man made doctrine you're holding unto. My objective standard for truth is rooted in Holy Scripture, which states that gifts of healing & miracles that has been given to the church were not given through the laying upon of hands but rather through the triune God--

There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

It is in Christ, the giver of gifts, we receive spiritual gifts not through the laying of hands, Jerry. Rather simple.


No,what is sad and pathetic is your unchristianlike assults on my character I expected you to react in such manner, for your flesh is easily angered with my continual emphasis on God's Word not hunches.


and your denial of the plain words of Paul that at this time there is but one baptism,and that one baptism is not the "baptism with the Spirit.

God's Word states clearly: The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. Now the body is not made up of one part but of many.

We are baptized by the Holy Spirit into one body. This occurs at justification. Then God gives His body spiritual gifts.


What I am presenting is not "man-made doctrines" but instead what I say is supported by the Scriptures. Hardly. But fell free to be deceived.

Now, Jerry, feel free to deal with the Scriptural record, since you haven't yet, regarding spiritual gifts for the church...

Anyone reading the New Covenant, in particular, should have no problem discovering not only numerous examples of miracles in the form of healing, prophecy, tongues, etc., but clear instruction on the functioning of spiritual gifts in the church (e.g., the book of Acts, Romans 12: 6-8; 1 Cor. 12:4-11, 28-30; 13; 14; and Eph. 4:7-12). Spiritual gifts were bestowed upon the church, the Body of Christ, both as a witness to the unbelieving world and for empowerment and Jerry you have failed to provide any Scriptural evidence that these gifts were taken from the Body.

Jerry Shugart
February 22nd, 2004, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Freak
Every gift, spiritual gifts included, come from God, not through the "laying of hands."
Freak,

"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied"(Acts19:6).

"Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money..."(Acts8:17,18).

Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- one Lord, one faith, one baptism...
The "baptism with the Holy Spirit" was in regard to receiving the "sign gifts".The Lord told His disciples to wait in Jerusalem and they would receive this baptism (Acts1:4,5).

And while they waited on the day of Pentecost they received this "baptism with the Spirit"(Acts2:1-18).This is not the same "baptism" whereby the believer is baptized into the Body of Christ.The men at Acts 19:1-6 were already saved and baptized into the Body of Christ but yet they had not yet received the "baptism with the Holy Spirit" in order to receive the sign gifts.

My objective standard for truth is rooted in Holy Scripture, which states that gifts of healing & miracles that has been given to the church were not given through the laying upon of hands but rather through the triune God--
You cannot see a progressive development in the Scriptures in regard to the sign gifts.And you say that your objective standard of truth is rooted in Holy Scripture but at the same time you insist that there is more than one baptism for the Church today despite Paul's words that there is only "one baptism".

You continue to quote verses that demonstrate that at one time those in the church did in fact possess sign gifts.I never denied that.So you can cease from quoting those verses over and over.

It is in Christ, the giver of gifts, we receive spiritual gifts not through the laying of hands, Jerry. Rather simple.
I can understand why you would deny that the "laying on of hands" had nothing to do with the receiving of sign gifts,especially since the author of Hebrews tells believers to "leave" those things behind and move on to maturity:

"Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment"(Heb.6:1,2;NASB).

I expected you to react in such manner, for your flesh is easily angered with my continual emphasis on God's Word not hunches.
I am not angered at all.I just wonder why you must revert to behavior that is at odds with Paul's instructions to "forebear one another in love,endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace"(Eph.4:2,3).

We are baptized by the Holy Spirit into one body. This occurs at justification. Then God gives His body spiritual gifts.
We can see that the believers at Acts 19:1-6 had already been saved but yet they did not receive the sign gifts until Paul had "laid his hands upon them".

Now, Jerry, feel free to deal with the Scriptural record, since you haven't yet, regarding spiritual gifts for the church...
I do not know why you fail to realize that I have already said numerous times that at one time the sign gifts were a part of the church.But you continue to quote those same verses and say that I refuse to deal with them.

In His grace,--Jerry

Jerry Shugart
February 22nd, 2004, 01:51 PM
godrulz,

In regard to Hebrews 6:1-2 you say:

Originally posted by godrulz
It seems to me the distinction is between OT (Jews) and NT (Christians) believers, not Jewish converts and Gentile converts resulting in much of the NT being not primarily for the Body of Christ, where there is neither Jew nor Gentile.
The author of Hebrews is addessing NT Christians.He tells them that the Old has been done away and replaced by the New (Heb.7:18-22).

The Jewish believers who started out under the Old Covenant and went on to the New referred to themselves as "Christians"(1Pet.4:16).

So the author of Hebrews is telling these NT Christians to leave such things as "the baptism of repentance" and the "laying on of hands" that brought the sign gifts.

In His grace,--Jerry

Freak
February 22nd, 2004, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,

"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied"(Acts19:6). It wasn't the laying upon of hands that caused the gifts to come. It was the Holy Spirit that gave them the gifts--"the Holy Spirit came on them and they spake with tongues..."

This is consistent with Scripture that tells us that spiritual gifts were given by the triune God...

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Every gift, spiritual gifts included, come from God, not through the "laying of hands." Jerry, there wasn't anything special about the laying of hands except that is was symbolic. Hands do not possess the ability to give gifts. That is reserved for God alone as we see here...

There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Note the bold Jerry. The spiritual gifts the church received wasn't from hands but rather the triune God. Your shaky theology needs some Biblical tune-up.


"Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money..."(Acts8:17,18). Hands do not give gifts. Only God is the giver of spiritual gifts...

To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits...



You cannot see a progressive development in the Scriptures in regard to the sign gifts. I see further down, in light of Scripture, then you do. You're stuck with the church in Acts. Move on to the church in Corinth, for example, that were baptized into the Body through faith in Christ.

For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

This was the members of the Body at Corinth. These same believers had these gifts...

To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues...


And you say that your objective standard of truth is rooted in Holy Scripture but at the same time you insist that there is more than one baptism for the Church today despite Paul's words that there is only "one baptism" Re-read what I posted last time. I said there was but one baptism--the baptism into the Body by the Holy Spirit. I realize you're still on milk but come on Jerry, keep up.


You continue to quote verses that demonstrate that at one time those in the church did in fact possess sign gifts.I never denied that.So you can cease from quoting those verses over and over. I quote Scripture for it is living and active (Hebrews 4:12) and is useful to teach people like you (2 Tim. 4:1-4). I noticed you still ignore the basic Scriptural facts...that there is, first of all, no Biblical warrant to throw out certain gifts from the body of Christ. Jerry, you are lacking in Biblical support. It seems you're simply relying on your theological bias rather than presenting strong biblical injunctions against the continuance of sign gifts. In fact we see that the Body using the gift of miracles (and being encouraged) and other gifts...

1 Corinthians 14:1 reports: Follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.

Galatians 3:5 reports: Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?


I can understand why you would deny that the "laying on of hands" had nothing to do with the receiving of sign gifts, I deny that because it lacks Scriptural support, Jerry. In fact, we are told over and over again that God is the one whom gives spiritual gifts not hands. :doh:


I am not angered at all. Great to hear.Now if you'd place your flesh under Scripture you'd be fine.


I just wonder why you must revert to behavior that is at odds with Paul's instructions to "forebear one another in love,endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace"(Eph.4:2,3).

The Book of Jude tells us that we must..."contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints." The Biblical faith includes a proper Scriptural understanding of spiritual gifts that has been bestowed upon the Body. I'm contending and correcting you in light of the Biblical record.


We can see that the believers at Acts 19:1-6 had already been saved but yet they did not receive the sign gifts until Paul had "laid his hands upon them" It wasn't because of some hand that they received gifts, Jerry. The Holy Spirit determines gifts (see 1 Cor. 12) not hands. What kind of supersition are you into these days? Sounds like you been studying some voodoo.


I do not know why you fail to realize that I have already said numerous times that at one time the sign gifts were a part of the church. But there is no Scriptural evidence that these gifts disappeared as you'd like for us to believe. In fact, we see that the apostle Paul telling us otherwise. Paul was writing to a Body of believers who were already indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon their conversion when, he stated at least six times in his writings, commands for Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Jerry, your homework is this: are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

godrulz
February 22nd, 2004, 05:01 PM
The immediate context is a warning about apostasy...returning to Judaism instead of trusting Christ (Heb. 6:6). The book is written to Jewish Christians and by application all believers. The writer is not saying to leave Christian baptism, but the baptisms of Judaism. The laying on of hands in the verse (Jewish) is not the same as millions of Pentecostals practice today (with the evidence of speaking in tongues). Similar does not mean identical. We had a believer's baptism today. The presence of God and public testimony was powerful. In many countries, people can go to church or claim to be believers. When they are baptized in obedience to the Word, that is the point where their families disown them and false religions persecute and kill them.

To dispensationalize away baptism and the spiritual gifts leads to lack of discipleship and disobedience to the Word and Spirit. I am persuaded that an interpretation that leads to these conclusions is simply faulty.

Millions have been baptized (water and Spirit) and experience the gifts of the Spirit. They are a blessing from God, glorify Him, and edify the Church (and act as a witness to an unbelieving world).

BillyBob
February 22nd, 2004, 05:09 PM
:News Headline:

'Big Fat Bloated Gay Guy Found With BaseBall Bat Lodged In His Skull'

Nobody came to mourn the death of Tye Porter, who fell and hit his head on a baseball bat earlier this week in a freak accident. It has been reported that everyone who knew him found him to be a vile, disgusting waste of human flesh. Even the Colorado State Police refused to investigate this seemingly unlikely accident because they knew Mr./Ms. Porter to be a closet homo sexual, a transvestite and a complete nut case.

When pressed for information, State Police Investigator Heywood Jablowme admitted that he had a short fling with Tye but found him to be too needy. He also said, "If I wanted a whiny, needy, stupid mate, I would have stayed heterosexual'.

Tye will be buried in a piano case later today, as a coffin large enough for him could not be located. It is estimated that it will take him at least 5oo years of decomposition to lose enough weight to be considered normal for his height, which is soon to be 6 feet under.

So long Tye, we will miss you.....NOT!

:darwinsm:

drbrumley
February 22nd, 2004, 06:10 PM
Thats it!

I can't even read a thread seperate from BillyBob and Tye and STILL have to look at the garbage just posted.

I hate to say it, but banning is IN THE INTERST OF THIS BOARD! Do it or I'm gone. I'm sick of the BillyBob/Tye distraction.

drbrumley
February 22nd, 2004, 06:20 PM
Defending yourself? You have almost 1000 threads in which you two can go at it. You wanna kill each other, go ahead. But you can do it on your own threads and not post stupid crap like that on a thread you weren't even a part of.


Thank YOU!

BillyBob
February 22nd, 2004, 06:25 PM
OK, Doc.

drbrumley
February 22nd, 2004, 06:32 PM
I do appreciate it BB, I really do.

Freak
February 22nd, 2004, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by drbrumley

Thats it!

I can't even read a thread seperate from BillyBob and Tye and STILL have to look at the garbage just posted.

I hate to say it, but banning is IN THE INTERST OF THIS BOARD! Do it or I'm gone. I'm sick of the BillyBob/Tye distraction. I'm with you. This is getting insane. BB, stop trashing our threads. :down:

Freak
February 23rd, 2004, 05:38 AM
Originally posted by godrulz

Millions have been baptized (water and Spirit) and experience the gifts of the Spirit. They are a blessing from God, glorify Him, and edify the Church (and act as a witness to an unbelieving world). :up:

Jerry Shugart
February 23rd, 2004, 11:26 AM
Freak,

I provided the following verse that the "laying on of hands" was in regard to receiving the sign gifts:

"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied"(Acts19:6).

But you say:

Originally posted by Freak
It wasn't the laying upon of hands that caused the gifts to come. It was the Holy Spirit that gave them the gifts--"the Holy Spirit came on them and they spake with tongues..."
Are you saying that the "laying on of hands" had nothing to do with the fact that they received the Holy Spirit and they began to speak with tongues?

Perhaps it was just a coincidence that these things happened when Paul laid his hands upon them.Is that what you are saying?Why do you suppose that Paul laid his hands on them anyway?

In His grace,--Jerry

godrulz
February 23rd, 2004, 11:34 AM
Our church (Assembly of God equivalent) lays hands on people and they speak in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.

I know this is anecdotal...

Our Pastor's son's wife is pregnant and had a large cyst threatening the pregnancy (ultrasound confirms). After a few days of prayer, the second u/s shows no evidence of the large cyst. It is not medically possible for it to spontaneously disappear.

We prayed for another man who was about to have his leg amputated due to diabetes. They could not find a vein to restore circulation. Within a week of praying, his leg is saved due to a change in response to prayer. These are recent examples in my sphere. Stories could be multiplied weekly from charismatic believers around the world.

I am thankful for a living God and a people who know their God and do exploits. My wife remains unhealed, and may never be healed. I am thankful I do not attend a church that relegates miracles to a past dispensation.

Jerry Shugart
February 23rd, 2004, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by godrulz
I am thankful for a living God and a people who know their God and do exploits. My wife remains unhealed, and may never be healed. I am thankful I do not attend a church that relegates miracles to a past dispensation.
godrulz,

I never denied that the Lord can heal during the present time.After all,we are told to pray to the Lord to make our requests be known.I believe that the Lord does indeed heal people during the present dispensation.

In His grace,--Jerry

godrulz
February 23rd, 2004, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

godrulz,

I never denied that the Lord can heal during the present time.After all,we are told to pray to the Lord to make our requests be known.I believe that the Lord does indeed heal people during the present dispensation.

In His grace,--Jerry

Sorry...this is for Clete and others (you do not attend an Enyart church I take it).

Freak
February 23rd, 2004, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,

I provided the following verse that the "laying on of hands" was in regard to receiving the sign gifts:

"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied"(Acts19:6). You need to look at the whole counsel of God, Jerry. The Scriptures are clear:

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Every gift, spiritual gifts included, come from God, not through the "laying of hands." As I mentioned earlier the laying upon of hands are simply symbolic just as water baptism is symbolic. There is no reason to believe, in light of the Scripural record, that hands can given someone powers. That's abusrd.

There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.



But you say:

Are you saying that the "laying on of hands" had nothing to do with the fact that they received the Holy Spirit and they began to speak with tongues? Yes. Hands had nothing to do with spiritual gifts. Laying of hands is merely symbolic, that's all.


Perhaps it was just a coincidence that these things happened when Paul laid his hands upon them.Is that what you are saying?Why do you suppose that Paul laid his hands on them anyway?

In His grace,--Jerry We see from Scripture that God gives spiritual gifts not the hands...

There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

The laying of hands like anoiting oil or marriage rings are symbolic, that's all. You're trying to read more into the text then there is to read. God is the giver of gifts not hands.

Freak
February 23rd, 2004, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by godrulz

Our Pastor's son's wife is pregnant and had a large cyst threatening the pregnancy (ultrasound confirms). After a few days of prayer, the second u/s shows no evidence of the large cyst. It is not medically possible for it to spontaneously disappear.

We prayed for another man who was about to have his leg amputated due to diabetes. They could not find a vein to restore circulation. Within a week of praying, his leg is saved due to a change in response to prayer. These are recent examples in my sphere. Stories could be multiplied weekly from charismatic believers around the world.

I am thankful for a living God and a people who know their God and do exploits. My wife remains unhealed, and may never be healed. I am thankful I do not attend a church that relegates miracles to a past dispensation. :thumb: Our God is desiring to work in His body to bring healing and deliverance to the hurting.

Jerry Shugart
February 24th, 2004, 12:00 PM
Originally posted by Freak
Every gift, spiritual gifts included, come from God, not through the "laying of hands."
Freak,

I agree with you that the "source" of every gift is the LOrd God.But you did not answer my questions in regard to the following verse:

""And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied"(Acts19:6).

I asked you:

Are you saying that the "laying on of hands" had nothing to do with the fact that they received the Holy Spirit and they began to speak with tongues?

Perhaps it was just a coincidence that these things happened when Paul laid his hands upon them.Is that what you are saying?Why do you suppose that Paul laid his hands on them anyway?

In His grace,--Jerry

godrulz
February 24th, 2004, 12:09 PM
The laying on of hands was not limited to the infilling of the Spirit. It was also used in setting apart leadership and praying for healing. It is a point of contact.

Freak
February 24th, 2004, 04:09 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,

I agree with you that the "source" of every gift is the LOrd God. Good.


But you did not answer my questions in regard to the following verse:

""And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied"(Acts19:6).

I asked you:

Are you saying that the "laying on of hands" had nothing to do with the fact that they received the Holy Spirit and they began to speak with tongues? I'll answer once again...the laying of hands had nothing to do with it. Hands do not bring the Holy Spirit or spiritual gifts. Only God gives gifts. The Holy Spirit choose to work in unity with the apostle Paul when he layed his hands upon them. For we know hands do not bring spiritual gifts to a believer but rather God does...

We see from Scripture that God gives spiritual gifts not the hands...

There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.




Perhaps it was just a coincidence that these things happened when Paul laid his hands upon them.Is that what you are saying?Why do you suppose that Paul laid his hands on them anyway?

In His grace,--Jerry The laying of hands like anoiting oil or marriage rings are symbolic, that's all. You're trying to read more into the text then there is to read. God is the giver of gifts not hands.

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Freak
February 25th, 2004, 06:03 AM
:crackup:

Jerry Shugart
February 25th, 2004, 06:58 PM
Freak,

I said:

Perhaps it was just a coincidence that these things happened when Paul laid his hands upon them.Is that what you are saying?Why do you suppose that Paul laid his hands on them anyway?
You did not answer any of my questions.You said:

The laying of hands like anoiting oil or marriage rings are symbolic, that's all. You're trying to read more into the text then there is to read. God is the giver of gifts not hands.

Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
I have already agreed with you that the source of the gifts are from God.But since the gifys of the Holy Spirit came to them at the time that Paul laid his hands on them it seems as if the laying on of hands is somehow connected with their receiving those gifts.Are you saying that this was just a coincidence?

And if the laying of hands was not connected to the receiving of the gifts then why do you suppose that Paul laid his hands on them to begin with?

In His grace,--Jerry

Freak
February 25th, 2004, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,

I said:

You did not answer any of my questions. Apparently you didn't read my earlier post. But, let's try this again...


I have already agreed with you that the source of the gifts are from God.But since the gifys of the Holy Spirit came to them at the time that Paul laid his hands on them it seems as if the laying on of hands is somehow connected with their receiving those gifts.Are you saying that this was just a coincidence? I said:

I'll answer once again...the laying of hands had nothing to do with it. Hands do not bring the Holy Spirit or spiritual gifts. Only God gives gifts. The Holy Spirit choose to work in unity with the apostle Paul when he layed his hands upon them. For we know hands do not bring spiritual gifts to a believer but rather God does...


And if the laying of hands was not connected to the receiving of the gifts then why do you suppose that Paul laid his hands on them to begin with?

In His grace,--Jerry I'll answer you again. I stated:

The laying of hands like anoiting oil or marriage rings are symbolic, that's all. You're trying to read more into the text then there is to read. God is the giver of gifts not hands.

Jerry Shugart
February 26th, 2004, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by godrulz

Our church (Assembly of God equivalent) lays hands on people and they speak in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.
Freak,

godrulz seems to be saying that there is a "cause and effect" in regard to the laying on of hands.

He says that they lay hands on people and then they speak in tongues.

Is godrulz in error?

In HIs grace,--Jerry

godrulz
February 26th, 2004, 10:45 AM
Why not ask Godrulz directly?

Anecdotally, people have initially spoke in tongues in the shower, driving a car, kneeling by their bed, standing in church, coming out of a baptism tank, etc. The Spirit is a wind that blows as He wishes. God is not reduced to a formula or technique. Some pastors/leaders lay hands on people at home or church and they speak in tongues. Just as many have many hands laid on them and they do not speak in tongues. This is not a simple cause-effect. It is similar to healing and deliverance. Laying on of hands is one of many ways that people are healed/delivered (see Gospels/Acts). It is not the only way, and it is not causative but symbolic/point of contact (some think you can transfer the anointing like a fluid...the Spirit is a person though).

Cause and effect is how God rules inanimate creation (rocks). Free will, love, moral law is the way God rules free moral agents. God does not flap my tongue and make me speak. We speak (our will is involved) AS the SPIRIT gives utterance (hence, the supernatural, divine factor).

I spoke in tongues for the first (not last) time in the quiet of my bedroom 2 months subsequent to being 'born again'. I am not a SuperChristian and believe this gift is for all believers (Pentecostal distinctive).

One would have to look at all references relating to laying on of hands in Judeo-Christianity to gain an accurate understanding of its historical and theological basis.

Jerry Shugart
February 26th, 2004, 12:49 PM
godrulz,

Earlier I wrote Freak saying,"since the gifts of the Holy Spirit came to them at the time that Paul laid his hands on them it seems as if the laying on of hands is somehow connected with their receiving those gifts."

I then asked him,"Are you saying that this was just a coincidence?"

To which he replied:

...the laying of hands had nothing to do with it.

But it seems to me that Paul's laying of hands did in fact have something to do with the fact that those men received the sign gifts at the time that Paul laid his hands on them.

And you seem to be implying that it is after someone lays their hands on another then at that time they are able to speak in tongues.

I realize that every gift comes from the Lord,but in certain instances He uses men in order to bring about those gifts.The gift of "eternal life" comes from the Lord,no doubt,but at the same time he uses men to bring about the receiving of that gift:

"How,then,shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed?And how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard?And how shall they hear without a preacher?"(Ro.10:14).

It appears to me that the Lord was using Paul to bring about the sign gifts to the men that he laid his hands upon at Acts 19:1-6.

Since the sign gifts are such an important part of the Assembly of God denomination I would think that they would issue some kind of offical statement in regard to the purpose and practice of the "laying on of hands"?

Are you aware of any such instructions?

In His grace,--Jerry

Freak
February 26th, 2004, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
But it seems to me that Paul's laying of hands did in fact have something to do with the fact that those men received the sign gifts at the time that Paul laid his hands on them.

...the laying of hands, Jerry, had nothing to do with it. Hands do not bring the Holy Spirit or spiritual gifts. Only God gives gifts. The Holy Spirit choose to work in unity with the apostle Paul when he layed his hands upon them.

Freak
February 26th, 2004, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,


Is godrulz in error?

In HIs grace,--Jerry Not from what I have read from him. Like me, he doesn't believe hands bring spiritual gifts.

Freak
February 26th, 2004, 05:49 PM
Jerry, it's time to move on....

We've dealt with your hands questions in light of Scripure. Now, I ask you to deal with this:

Paul was writing to a Body of believers who were already indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon their conversion when, he stated at least six times in his writings, commands for Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Jerry, your homework is this: are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Francisco
February 26th, 2004, 07:40 PM
Freak,

I agree with Jerry in regard to the laying on of hands. Jesus worked through the apostles, and can work through chosen individuals today, to heal and perform other miracles.

Yes, Paul did exhort us to imitate him as he imitates Christ. However, it was not Paul who performed the miracles that involved him, it was God. We should imitate Paul in all things we have control of, our faithfullness, our attitude, our effort to spread the gospel, etc... And if God chooses, He may work a miracle through us. But remember that it is God's choice who He works through.

You are correct that it is not the hands that cause the miracles, but nothing prevents God from working through anything He created as He is the master of all creation. There is no reasonable explanation you could provide that would show that God cannot work through anyone or anything He chooses. On the contrary, there are many examples of God working miracles through all sorts of matter including humans, animals, dirt, water, fire, etc...

God can work a miracle through something material, like Paul's handkerchief for instance. He can perform a miracle through the water like He did at the pool at Siloam. He can perform a miracle through an animal like the whale that swallowed Jonah or the talking donkey. God even worked miracles through the bones of Elisha.

There is no reason to exclude the spiritual from working through the material, particularly as it relates to humans. After all, we are a union of both spirit and matter.

I'm not going to jump into the middle of debate, I just wanted to interject my thoughts on an interesting subject. I hope all is going well with you my friend. Take care.

God Bless,

Francisco

Jerry Shugart
February 26th, 2004, 10:39 PM
Freak,

I have already answered.During the Acts period there were three different baptisms in effect.But now there is only one,and the baptism with the Spirit for the sign gifts is not the "one baptism" for today.

And you said:

The Holy Spirit choose to work in unity with the apostle Paul when he layed his hands upon them.
So if they are working in "unity" then the laying on of hands did in fact have something to do with the receiving of the sign gifts.I cannot even imagine how you could still say that the laying on of hands had nothing with the receiving of the sign gifts since you admit that they were working in "unity".

In His grace,--Jerry

Freak
February 27th, 2004, 05:59 AM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,

I have already answered.During the Acts period there were three different baptisms in effect.But now there is only one,and the baptism with the Spirit for the sign gifts is not the "one baptism" for today. But that answer fails for we know Paul was speaking of the gift of miracles to those who had the same baptism as the present church. Were you aware of this?



So if they are working in "unity" then the laying on of hands did in fact have something to do with the receiving of the sign gifts.I cannot even imagine how you could still say that the laying on of hands had nothing with the receiving of the sign gifts since you admit that they were working in "unity".

In His grace,--Jerry When I say unity I'm speaking of the apostle Paul being led by the Spirit, working in cooperation of the Holy Spirit. Holy Spirit directed, for symbolic reasons (just as we have the symbolism of marriage rings), to lay hands upon people. Gifts and miracles are a work of God not hands. The Holy Spirit, the triune God gives gifts not hands as seen from Paul's writings...

There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men. Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Jerry Shugart
February 27th, 2004, 12:45 PM
Freak,

We have been over this many times and I do not think that it benefits either one of us to continue speaking about these same things.I am curious as to whether or not any of the other early Christian writers said anything about possessing the sign gifts.Of course I think you know that many of the things which some of the early believers taught were in error,so I am not saying that we should put what they say over what the Scriptures reveal.

However,if they did possess these sign gifts then I would think that they would at least mention that fact in their writings.

Are you aware of any of the early writings that mention sign gifts?

In His grace,--Jerry

godrulz
February 27th, 2004, 01:36 PM
I took a course on Pentecostal history. There are pockets of charismatic revival throughout the centuries. The Church lost some of its distinctives and emphasis over the years (Catholic, Constantine, apostasy, etc.), hence the restoration of various truths (Baptists, Reformation= faith/word, Alliance=healing under A.B. Simpson, Pentecostal/charismatic movements in 1900s/1960s...waves... etc.).

Freak
February 27th, 2004, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,

I am curious as to whether or not any of the other early Christian writers said anything about possessing the sign gifts.
However,if they did possess these sign gifts then I would think that they would at least mention that fact in their writings.

Are you aware of any of the early writings that mention sign gifts?
There is ample evidence, Jerry.

Casting out demons or evil spirits, which Jesus mentions as being a miracle in Mark 9, was routinely practiced in the early church. The Scriptural record is in my favor along with church history. Were you aware of this?

Irenaens Against Heresies, Book II, 32:4 (190 A.D.) "For some (Christians) do certainly and truly drive out devils, so that those who have thus been cleansed from evil spirits frequently both believe and join themselves to the church." Deliverance is also implied to be done by Christians in Book II, 31:2.

Justin Martyr, Second Apology, Ch. 8 (153 A.D.) This apology was addressed to the Roman Senatel. "And they {demons), having been shut up in eternal fire, shall suffer their just punishment and penalty. For if they are even now overthrown by men through the Name of Jesus Christ, this is an intimation of the punishment in eternal fire which is to be inflicted on themselves and those who serve them."

Second Apology, Ch. 6, "And now yon (Roman Senate) can learn this from what is under your own observation. For numberless demoniacs throughout the whole world, and in your city, many of our Christian men exorcising them in the Name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, have healed and do heal, rendering helpless and driving the demons out of the men, though they could not be cured by all the other exorcists, and those who used incantations and drugs."

Justin Martyr, Dialogue With Trypho, a Jew, Ch. 30 (150 A.D.), "For we call Him (Jesus) Helper and Redeemer, the power of whose name even the demons do fear, and at this day, when they are exorcised in the Name of Jesus Christ, they are overcome."

Dialogue With Trypho, Ch. 76, "And now we, who believe on our Lord Jesus, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, when we exorcise all demons and evil spirits, have them subjected to us."

Dialogue With Trypho, Ch. 85, "For every demon, when exorcised in the Name of this very Son of God ... is overcome and subdued. But though you exorcise any demon in the name of any of those who were amongst you -- either kings, or righteous men, or prophets, or patriarchs -- it will not be subject to you. Now assuredly your (Jewish) exorcists, I have said, make use of craft when they exorcise, even as the Gentiles do, and employ fumigations and incantations.''

Tatian, Address of Tatian to the Greeks, Ch. 16 (160 A.D.), "Sometimes they themselves (demons) disturb the habit of the body by a tempest of folly, but, being smitten by the Word of God, they depart in terror, and the sick man is healed."

Theophilus, Theophilus to Autolycus, Book II, 8 (160-180 A.D.), Theophilus is refuting the false teachings of Homer and Hesiod who were famous Greek poets. "... And this clearly appears from the fact, that even to this day the demonized are sometimes exorcised in the Name of the living and true God; and these spirits of error themselves confess that they are demons who also formerly inspired these writers (Homer and Hesiod)."

Tertullion, Apology, Ch. 23, (197 A.D.), "Let a person be brought before your tribunals, who is plainly under demonic possession. The wicked spirit, bidden to speak by a follower of Christ, will as readily make the truthful confession that he is a demon, as elsewhere he has falsely asserted that he is a god."

Tertullian, Apology, Ch. 37, "Who would save you (Roman Rulers), I mean, from the attacks of those spirits of evil, which without reward or hire we (Christians) exorcise?"

Tertullian, To Scapula, Ch. 4, "The clerk of one of the courts who was liable to be thrown upon the ground by an evil spirit, was set free from his affliction (by Christians); as was also the relative of another, and the little boy of a third. How many men of rank (to say nothing of common people) have been delivered from demons, and healed of diseases?"

Minucius Felix, The Octavious of Minucius Felix, (210 A.D.), "A great many, even some of your own people, know all those things that the demons themselves confess concerning themselves, as often as they are driven by us (Christians) from bodies by the torments of our words and by the fires of our prayers," (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. IV, p. 190.)

Origen, Against Celsus, Book I, 46 (230-254 A.D.), "And there are still preserved among Christians traces of that Holy Spirit which appeared in the form of a dove. The Christians expel evil spirits, and perform many cures, and foresee certain events, according to the will of the Logos."

Against Celsus, Book I, 67, "And the Name of Jesus can still remove distractions from the minds of men, and expel demons, and also take away diseases and produce a complete change of character .... "

Lactentius, The Divine lnstitutes, Book II, 16 (250-320 A.D.), "But they (demons) fear the righteous, that is, the worshippers of God, adjured by whose name they depart from the bodies (of people); for, being lashed by the Christians' words, they not only confess to be demons, but even utter their own names." Also deliverance is mentioned in Book V, 22, and in The Epitome of the Divine Institutes, Ch. 51.

Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lecturer, 16:12 (350-375 A.D.), "For He (Holy Spirit) employs the tongue of one man for wisdom; the soul of another He enlightens by prophecy, to another He gives power to drive away demons .... "

The Divine Institutes, Book V, 22, "For these (demons), as long as there is peace among the people of God, flee from the righteous, and fear them; and when they seize upon the bodies of men, and house their souls, they are adjured by the Christians, and at the Name of the true God are put to flight. For when the demons hear this name they tremble, cry out, and assert that they are branded and beaten; and being asked who they are, whence they are come, and how they have insinuated themselves into a man, confess it. Thus, being tortured and excruciated by the power of the divine name, they come out of the man."

Lactantius, The Epitome of the Divine Institutes, Ch. 51, "But of what great weight the cross is, and what power it has, is evident, since all the hosts of demons are expelled and put to flight by it. And as He Himself before His passion put to confusion demons by His word and command, so now, by the name and sign of the same passion, unclean spirits, having insinuated themselves into the bodies of men, are driven out, when racked and tormented, and confessing themselves to be demons, they yield themselves to God, who harasses them.

"What therefore can the Greeks expect from their superstitions and with their wisdom, when they see that their gods, whom they do not deny to be demons also, are subdued by men through the cross?"

Francisco
February 27th, 2004, 05:27 PM
godrulz,

I took a course on Pentecostal history. There are pockets of charismatic revival throughout the centuries. The Church lost some of its distinctives and emphasis over the years (Catholic, Constantine, apostasy, etc.), hence the restoration of various truths (Baptists, Reformation= faith/word, Alliance=healing under A.B. Simpson, Pentecostal/charismatic movements in 1900s/1960s...waves... etc.).
The Catholic Church has more charismatics than all the others combined. It's not a matter of "distinctives and emphasis", it's a matter of who the Holy Spirit gives these gifts to.

And I don't call the false man-made doctrines of the Baptists to be the "restoration of various truths."

godrulz
February 28th, 2004, 01:53 AM
+ Baptists= baptism by immersion; what false teachings? (I am not Baptist, but evangelical/Protestant).

- Catholics= indulgences; clergy-laity distinction; popery, etc. (+ Deity of Christ, Trinity, etc.)

Francisco
February 28th, 2004, 09:56 AM
godrulz:

Baptist = man made beliefs from 18th century

Catholic = teachings passed from Jesus to apostles to all generations




Baptist = changing religion. First Arminian, then Calvinist. Yesterday it was sinful to use musical instrument in church, today they have the loudest musical instruments. Yesterday it's a sin to dance, today it's ok. Yesterday women that wear pants go to hell, today it's ok.

Catholic = the unchangeable teachings of Jesus passed down through the apostles to all generations.

By the way, Baptist's are trinitarian and believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ just as Catholics do. If you don't believe these things you should probably go check out one of the modern cults like the Jehovahs.

Jerry Shugart
February 28th, 2004, 10:35 AM
Originally posted by Francisco
The Catholic Church has more charismatics than all the others combined.
Here is a perfect description of the charismatics of the Roman church:

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"(Mt.7:22,23).

In His grace,--Jerry

Freak
February 28th, 2004, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Here is a perfect description of the charismatics of the Roman church:

In His grace,--Jerry Jerry you asked me, not too long ago, this:

Are you aware of any of the early writings that mention sign gifts?

I then proceeded to provide you evidence thereof. Do you now acknowledge that the early church employed the gift of miracles?

Now, in regards to your most recent post...

Do you understand that Charismatics, generally speaking, embrace the essentials of the Christian faith?

Leo Volont
February 28th, 2004, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Here is a perfect description of the charismatics of the Roman church:

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"(Mt.7:22,23).

In His grace,--Jerry

What arrogance! Look at the preceding verse which Jerry does not have the intellectual honesty to include -- that those will be welcomed who have done the Will of the Father. We have no mention from Christ that some Easy Faith Alone Salvation will someday be provided by one of the Pharisees who will have Him murdered. Christ tells us that Salvation will come of Works. This is a Doctrine that Rome has no problem with. It is only the Protestants who think they may go to Heaven by simply whining and crying the name of "Christ"

godrulz
February 29th, 2004, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Here is a perfect description of the charismatics of the Roman church:

"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity"(Mt.7:22,23).

In His grace,--Jerry

Applies to some, but not all (simplistic generalization made out of ignorance...study the history of charismatics...yes they need sound teaching, but to attribute the move of the Spirit to Satan or the flesh is grieving and quenching the Spirit).

godrulz
February 29th, 2004, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by Leo Volont

What arrogance! Look at the preceding verse which Jerry does not have the intellectual honesty to include -- that those will be welcomed who have done the Will of the Father. We have no mention from Christ that some Easy Faith Alone Salvation will someday be provided by one of the Pharisees who will have Him murdered. Christ tells us that Salvation will come of Works. This is a Doctrine that Rome has no problem with. It is only the Protestants who think they may go to Heaven by simply whining and crying the name of "Christ"

Evangelicals are or should be against 'easy believism'. Repentance, faith, love, and obedience require radical changes in ultimate (live for God vs Self) and subordinate choices (moral law of God= holiness; character). Genuine faith will produce works, but this should not be confused with works being a condition or ground of salvation.

Leo Volont
February 29th, 2004, 02:18 AM
Originally posted by godrulz

Evangelicals are or should be against 'easy believism'. Repentance, faith, love, and obedience require radical changes in ultimate (live for God vs Self) and subordinate choices (moral law of God= holiness; character). Genuine faith will produce works, but this should not be confused with works being a condition or ground of salvation.

There seems to be Protestants who need to apologize for their Morality... who are embarrassed by their good works. Does this not give you some hint of the wickedness of Paul, that you must sneak around for goodness, and do your Righteousness in secret. If your Master was not Satan, surely you could be open in your Sanctity. But you seem to fear Punishments for your virtues. Just as Paul instructed. "Your Good Works will be held as debts against you".

You know, by feeling the necessity of Righteousness, you admit the Masterhood of Christ. So why pretend to serve Two Masters any longer? Especially if you are a Protestant -- be the first Protestant Sect to declare the Truth -- that Paul is the Antichrist, and that there no longer has to be shame in Good Works, and that Good Christians are bound by the Moral Teachings of Jesus. Well, after that, you are an inch from the Catholic Church anyway...

godrulz
February 29th, 2004, 03:08 AM
The Catholic Church accepts Pauline doctrine (though misinterpreting it at times). You must be part of an unofficial offshoot/sect of the Catholic Church led by the Pope (if you reject Paul's apostleship as the antichrist?!).

There is a reason the Protestants protested. It was a desire to return to biblical vs papal authority.

The grounds of salvation (reason for which) are grace and the death/resurrection of Christ.

The conditions of salvation (not without which) are repentance, faith (knowledge, love, obedience, trust), and perseverance/continuance to the end (abide).

Faith (heaven) or unbelief (hell/lake of fire) determines one's destiny. This is a heart issue before God.

Works determine degree of reward or loss of reward. The externals are evidence before men and should reflect the state of the heart that God sees. Virtue will be rewarded and vice will be punished. Works are not salvific, but flow out of faith or unbelief. Motive is the key since external works are only meritorious if done for a motive of loving and glorifying God. The identical work from a selfish motive is rubbish. Only God discerns the motive and heart.

e.g. The Pharisees prayed, tithed, and followed the Word/Law but were far from God.

Freak
February 29th, 2004, 08:21 AM
Gentleman, please stay on topic. Thanks.

Jerry Shugart
February 29th, 2004, 10:43 AM
Originally posted by Freak
Do you understand that Charismatics, generally speaking, embrace the essentials of the Christian faith?
Freak,

I can see that you have a very good understanding of the essentials of the Christian faith.And thank you for your quotes from those in the early church.However,I remained convinced that at this time there s only "one baptism",and that baptism is not the one performed by the Lord Jesus with the Spirit whereby men receive the sign gifts.

I also remain convinced that the author of Hebrews told the Christians to leave behind the laying on of hands that at one time was in reference to the sign gifts.

In His grace,--Jerry

Freak
February 29th, 2004, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,

I can see that you have a very good understanding of the essentials of the Christian faith. I do appreciate the kind words, Jerry. Having graduated from a theological school that is biblically sound helps (I graduated from Criswell College--a conservative Southern Baptist school in Dallas). It also helps I attend a very orthodox, theologically speaking, Anglican Fellowship.


And thank you for your quotes from those in the early church. The evidence found in the Scriptural record and in early church history speaks in our favor.


However,I remained convinced that at this time there s only "one baptism",and that baptism is not the one performed by the Lord Jesus with the Spirit whereby men receive the sign gifts. Though I believe your theology, in this area is flawed, I acknowledge that this issue is an non-essential among the Body.


I also remain convinced that the author of Hebrews told the Christians to leave behind the laying on of hands that at one time was in reference to the sign gifts.

In His grace,--Jerry Flawed but some believers do hold unto this idea.

On a side note: Jerry, you and I agree on many issues and you have done an outstanding job in defending the essentials of the historic faith on this forum. I pray, however, that your eyes would be opened to the truth of miracles among the Body. Blessings.

LightSon
March 1st, 2004, 02:12 PM
Freak,
Thank you delineating your differnences with Jerry in a fair-minded, congenial fashion.

Freak
March 1st, 2004, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by LightSon

Freak,
Thank you delineating your differnences with Jerry in a fair-minded, congenial fashion. :up:

godrulz
August 19th, 2004, 03:04 PM
National Post (Canadian national paper) August 19,2004

"Man credits prayer for saving life: doctors unable to explain full recovery after non-survivable situation"


- 19 year old Li Peng near death after drowning= brain dead 7 days...expected death or vegetative state (Dr. Meakes).

- father flew in from China...did not speak English...Ms. Chow, who knew the patient from university, thought of a pastor at a Chinese Pentecostal Church she used to attend who knew Mandarin. "But he is a man of the church, a Christian. Would you be comfortable with that?"

- pastor and wife prayed after saying "You might not know who God is, or who Jesus is, but I believe- I trust- that God can do somehting. It's not me. I just came to pray for your son."

- whispered in patient's ear'; next morning mentioned plight to University group studying Christianity (mandarin). Evangelist joined them, anointed patient with oil, prayed.

- That night Li opened his eyes for first time since drowning...defied medicine, regained consciousness, recovered ability to sit, write, read, speak.

- Dr. "We have no natural way of being able to understand why Li gained what he did."

- Vital signs were deteriorating UNTIL a group of strangers prayed for him. "And in the time that he was prayed for, this patient made a major demonstrable change in condition."

- Li has since been baptized as a new believer and does not remember the drowning. He lives with the pastor and plans to attend university. "I believe in God, I believe Jesus saved my life."


This verifiable historical event is consistent with the biblical message. Miracles still happen and they do not always lead to unbelief. One can rationalize this away (some comas do recover without God), or rejoice and give God glory for His demonstration of love and power that led to the salvation of an atheist (?) and who knows how many others. I unapologetically chose to worship God, instead of succumb to a Western mindset that limits God. This is not an isolated incident. I was at a healing meeting this month and saw a 14 year old girl abandon her leg braces for spastic cerebral palsy and run across the stage with her mother. The evangelist did not touch or pray for her. God supernaturally moved and healed her out in the crowd (cf. the ministry of Jesus).

The Gospels and Acts continues into the Church Age until Jesus returns. Having the written Word does not preclude the Living Word from moving in our generation.

Yorzhik
August 20th, 2004, 10:30 AM
I was looking for the story in the Post, but I received this:


Results for your search for "Li Peng" for the last 7 days from the National Post.

0 to 0 results out of 0

and this:


Results for your search for "Meakes" for the last 7 days from the National Post.

0 to 0 results out of 0

Maybe it's paper only? Do you have more information on the source?

godrulz
August 20th, 2004, 12:10 PM
I presume it must be hard copy only vs internet. One could probably track down the pastor of the Mandarin Chinese church in Victoria, B.C., Canada to verify. Dr. Meakes is also registered in that city with Canadian Medical Association (he reported facts and gave his own opinion, but would not necessarily give glory to God if he is an unbeliever). It is likely the only one (or call other Pentecostal churches). I imagine it was a newswire story or National Post (credible, conservative paper similar to Globe and Mail or New York Times, etc. in scope).

The picture with the story shows Li being water baptized. Christians around the world often see God confirm His Word with signs following, resulting in a harvest of souls (including whole villages in the face of the impotence of the 'witch doctors' who could not heal and deliver). Europe, the cradle of Christianity, is far from God and now needs third world missionaries to come to it. North America is a 'reached' area that has become self-sufficient. Perhaps we do not see the power of God as often because of our indifference to the things of God, our Western scientific world view, prayerlessness, compromise, and rationalization and unbelief in God and His Word.

1Way
August 28th, 2004, 07:17 PM
It just shows once again how terribly false Christian beliefs are today, and how Christians are willing to lie (or believe a lie) in order to support their false claims.

1Way
August 28th, 2004, 09:27 PM
godrulz

From you post 647. This sort of text is my added comments.. (godrulz said)
The Catholic Church accepts Pauline doctrine (though misinterpreting it at times). You must be part of an unofficial offshoot/sect of the Catholic Church led by the Pope (if you reject Paul's apostleship as the antichrist?!).

Problems at several levels
1 - The Catholic Church mixes law and grace, Petrian and Pauline apostleship and thus doctrine, thus they violate both, they do not accept Pauline doctrine just as most of the church violates it as well.

2 - Precept 1 - Caltholic dogma accepts Pauline doctrine. (Which is rubbish)
Precept 2 - You must be part of the Catholic Church (offshoot/sect) led by the Pope.

Precept 2 openly violates precept 1 in the most dramatic way. The claim in precept 1 that they accept Pauline doctrine is absurd in the clearest sense, so I have no idea why you purport such a thing.

3 - The parenthetical comment is unclear and confusing at best, and also it makes no meaningful connection to what was just said. Specifically what does "the antichrist" have to do with anything just mentioned? Frankly, the question doesn't make any sense despite the apparent fact that the design was to complete or tie up some loose end and help things make sense.

There is a reason the Protestants protested. It was a desire to return to biblical vs papal authority.

The grounds of salvation (reason for which) are grace and the death/resurrection of Christ.

The conditions of salvation (not without which) are repentance, faith (knowledge, love, obedience, trust), and perseverance/continuance to the end (abide).

Depending upon if that was your view or not, please stand corrected in your dictate as to the nature of salvation which is in error. Our perseverance/continuance to the end (abide) is not a requirement for salvation today. Our faithfulness is not a requirement for salvation, it's Christ's faithfulness that saves us, not ours.

"If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself." --- God through Paul

Faith (heaven) or unbelief (hell/lake of fire) determines one's destiny. This is a heart issue before God.

Works determine degree of reward or loss of reward. The externals are evidence before men and should reflect the state of the heart that God sees. Virtue will be rewarded and vice will be punished. Works are not salvific, but flow out of faith or unbelief. Motive is the key since external works are only meritorious if done for a motive of loving and glorifying God. The identical work from a selfish motive is rubbish. Only God discerns the motive and heart.

Yet for some reason, God thought it wise to teach men to judge one another, including and sometimes emphasizing issues of the heart.

e.g. The Pharisees prayed, tithed, and followed the Word/Law but were far from God.

Example, love is an issue of the heart, same with caring and forgiveness and so on. But Jesus said to the one who judged the heart of another, "you have rightly judged." Luke 7:43. Jesus then immediately continued to teach mere men about this judgment of the heart, a lesson that I for one can easily understand and apply in my own life.

Do you have a problem accepting Jesus's teaching about men rightly judging another man's heart? If so, I pray for you to learn to accept the teachings of Jesus to rightly judge the inward things, and not the outward appearance. John 7:24, Luke 11:39, 2Co 4:16 You seem to have a problem mixing other's thoughts in with your own instead of distinguishing what distinct parties you are trying to represent. Perhaps you know who said and thought what, but I can't tell from your post where these divisions are supposed to happen.

Consider the source...

godrulz
August 28th, 2004, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by 1Way

It just shows once again how terribly false Christian beliefs are today, and how Christians are willing to lie (or believe a lie) in order to support their false claims.

"We hold a few texts so near the eyes that they hide the rest of the Bible." - William Butler

"The Plot" contends that miracles do not happen today and they lead to unbelief. You whine that there are no examples of the opposite today. When you get one, you rob God of the glory and show more skepticism than Zakath?!:doh:

It shows how blinding preconceived theologies are to negate the Word and the work of the Spirit. Do not quench or grieve the Spirit by attributing these works to Satan or false journalism.

"Don't confuse me with the FACTS, my mind is already made up.":nono:

You can side with the atheists. I will know my God and do exploits in His name like Daniel did for the glory of God and to confound the 'wisdom' of the world and unbelieving Church. Dispensationalism is not always biblical.:ha:

1Way
August 29th, 2004, 06:39 AM
godrulz
Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool [is] right in his own eyes,
But he who heeds counsel [is] wise.

Proverbs 26:12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes?
[There is] more hope for a fool than for him. --- God
I believe your story is a hoax. I suggest that it will not be verifiable on account of several things.

I took some time and looked up some things on the internet. It seems that it's a practice that once you are determined to be brain dead, and that determination is rigorously tested to make sure there is no mistake, they stop life support after 5 hours because there is no hope for even regaining to a comatose state at that point.

There are several ways to know if your brain is dead, that is, it has stopped functioning. EEG, chemical, and radioactive tests. EEG for electrical signals from brain functions, chemical to cause a reaction in the brain to speed up heart rate that can not happen if the brain is dead, and radioactive blood flow to see if the brain is getting blood supply. Strangely, there was no mention of what sort of test they used.

But more strange is the report itself. Your report brazenly claims "This verifiable historical event is consistent with the biblical message. Miracles still happen and they do not always lead to unbelief." "Verifiable"???

"Always lead to unbelief"???

First, even YOU did not site the actual source you got your info from. You stated that it came from that paper, but did you read it yourself and personally copy the info from the paper to this website, or did you copy this info from another source? Exactly what was your source? If you have the paper, then please make it available for further investigation.

There is mention that this Li Peng was a "patient". Which means about nothing. Where was he a patient? By the seriousness of the injury, it should have been in a most notable hospital or trauma center. And these places usually keep very clear records of their patients and the treatment as well... but for some (???) reason, no mention was even made. (???)

Dr. Meakes states that the "patient" was brain dead for 7 days, he expected him to die, or live a vegetative state. Yet from a brief internet scan, the timetable I read about was that after 5 hours of being brain dead (they have had enough time to sufficiently determine that you are positively brain dead), then they know that you can not return to a functioning life because your brain, which controls all your bodies functions, no longer functions, it is dead. The only way you can keep living is by life support machines without which you would promptly die. Apparently after 5 hours of being brain dead, they let you become what you already are, dead. Yet strangely there was no mention of "life support", or the extent that was required and for how long. (???)

The third bullet suddenly introduces a new character, a "wife", yet we are not told who this wife is.

Forth bullet says, "whispered in patient's ear", and then proceeds to not say

what was said,

who said it,

or why this mention was supposed to mean something. (???) ("Very" godrulzish)

Although the story does imply a very full recovery because he plans on attending a university, the only mention of any long term effects was that he does not remember the drowning. It would be helpful to state his diagnosis and ongoing health condition as a result of his stay at someone's care.

They usually don't list the medical emergency facts only stories in the paper along with a religious spin. I don't care how conservative or reliable the paper, the fact that they had a picture of him getting his baptism in a church shows quite conclusively that this story was an editorial piece, and as such, is subject to artistic license and what sells and what does not sell.
Did you make up this story?

You are very quick to judge against believers in Jesus Christ who have a healthy dose of skepticism against false claims. But, when it comes to bible study on the subject of God doing miracles today, you "come up short" and you present false accusations against those who agree with what the Plot teaches. And we really don't care what "The Plot" teaches, we care about what the bible teaches and simply try to reflect and teach that!

The Plot does not invent it's own claims, it carefully observes that the BIBLE teaches that miracles should not be expected for today, and that they "overwhelmingly" do not tend to engender faith. Again the substance for these claims is the result of doing a massive bible study on the subject, recording the VERIFIABLE results wherever they are explained in the bible!

Please explain the bible's overwhelming testimony that faith is not what miracles tend to foster. And why is it that faith is fundamentally eliminated when you experience a miracle as reality? Does it take faith to know that I am typing this out on my computer??? Or does it take simple acknowledgement of the fact, something more like being "conscious" instead of "faith"?

:doh: That's right, faith is for things not seen, things hoped for but not yet realized. But who cares if God's word overwhelmingly dictates that miracles do not tend to produce faith...

Suddenly your all quiet on the biblical issues,,, hu,,, how convenient for you "miracles are for today" types. And as to attacking dispensationalism, that is about as bogus as could be. Was God wrong for teaching dispensationalism? I don't think so, I think you are wrong for generally attacking what God clearly promotes.

In spite of this biblical lacking, somehow you come up sufficiently prepared with (subjective non-verifiable) miraculous account(s). And when we say where's the verifiable evidence, you attack our(!!!) objectivity and credibility AND even judge against us that we do not give God the glory that He certainly deserves! You are one arrogant (and subjective) person.

You made the claims, you said it was "verifiable", so if you are to be understood as credible, we will be able to verify this. Please help us do that, or remain generally against the biblical record on this issue with nothing but fictitious unverifiable claims.

You still have the source for your story, ,,, don't you?

godrulz
August 29th, 2004, 09:09 AM
I read the copy of the story in the National Post, a conservative, credible national paper (one of two in Canada). I get a daily subscription.

It pinpointed the church and hospital to a fairly small city= Victoria, B.C. If they thought there was no hope, they would not transfer him to New York, would they?

I gave highlights of the article. The writer likely also phrased some things imperfectly. The 'wife' is the pastor's wife, not the patient's.

Some cases of 'brain death' probably have recovered spontaneously. It was the doctors opinion that there was no hope in this case. Perhaps the term was used generally, rather than precisely as a clinical diagnosis. He may have had some brain activity, but normally such that it was incompatible with life. The '5 hour' rule (from my medical experience and training in a major trauma center) is probably not absolute. There have been rare cases of recovery, and an ethics board and family are usually involved in the decision to remove life support. It does not happen at 5 hours and 1 minute in most cases.

I admit that it is possible that the doctors were wrong in their initial assessment and the body did its own miracle. I gave enough information that you could track down the pastor and doctor in B.C. to get more documentation.

Can you admit that the omnipotent God could have done this in the same way He worked through Jesus in the Gospels and the Spirit/Church in Acts? His demonstration of love and power resulted in salvation, as it did in the Bible.

This leaves us with your theory that He is able to do this, but now does not do it for dispensational reasons (God-in-a-box IF you are wrong). If your narrow view of Scripture is incorrect, then there is no problem (there is a weight of Pentecostal/charismatic, and other branches of evangelicalism, scholarship that honestly interprets the Bible in a way that does not preclude the ministry of Jesus and Acts continuing today. Hundreds of millions of believers do not doubt God's ways today).

You can run around trying to debunk numerous stories of miracles. Some will prove to be unverifiable or questionable, but some will defy medical explanation.

I honestly share your dose of skepticism about FALSE claims. This does not mean that honest claims deserve the same treatment. My spirit resonates with the article, because it has "God" written all over it. I chose to accept the evidence (until shown otherwise... I am sure some doctor or Pastor in Victoria would counter the article if it was inaccurate) and rejoice at God's goodness. My understanding is based on Scripture, not one example in modern times.

Faith is not the only way God works. In this case, there was an answer to believing prayer. In other cases (ministries of the past), God did not heal the people with expectant faith, but He healed the skeptical unbeliever who did not believe in God at all (case of lady in Quebec healed of MS at a crusade). God can sovereignly touch someone without faith by anyone. In your view, is it theoretically possible that the sovereign God could intervene when or if He wants? If not, why not (proof text)? Even C.S. Lewis (non-Pentecostal) understood that miracles are consistent with a supernatural God ('Mere Christianity' and other books). Your preconceived theology cannot contain the sovereign wind of the Spirit or the omnipotence of God.

I was just at a healing meeting and went as a skeptic (do not like the evangelist). I saw a 14 year old carry her leg braces across the stage as she ran for the first time in years or her life? She had cerebral palsy (watch how crippled these people are...they can barely walk). She was with her family. God healed her as she sat in the meeting without a human touching or praying for her. She ran across the stage. Hundreds responded to a Gospel message for salvation, the greatest miracle. Many more testified of healings. Some will be objectively verifiable by x-rays, etc. Others were mind-over-matter emotionalism and will likely prove inaccurate. I saw this with my own eyes in August. Everything was done in the name of Jesus for His glory. My wife has MS. She wanted to go in obedience to God. She was not healed (not everyone is healed all the time). Our trust is in God, not man. She may or may not get better before she is glorified. This does not make me want to rob others of God's blessing.

I gave the source of the story. You can track it down. I threw the article out. It is one of many examples I have heard of over the years. I will wait for the book (ha, if there is one...it will have documentation). I believe my understanding of Scripture is closer to the truth. You equate your view with being the only possible way to understand Scripture. I simply feel you are wrong (see rest of thread for Scriptural evidence). This article is neither here nor there. I know God, His Word, and His ways and merely present it for what it is. If it is shown to be inaccurate, I will join you on this specific case, but it will not change my understanding of Scripture (nor should one article change yours). I had hoped it would encourage the saints, and would hope your 'cold water' would not rob people of a blessing. He is the Lord who heals you. Listen to the Word and voice of God. Jesus came to destroy sin, Satan, and sickness. These still exist. God is not on an extended holiday (nor is Satan). The Church has mighty weapons, not just church growth seminars.

Daniel50
August 29th, 2004, 09:31 AM
I Thessalonians
5:23May the God of peace himself sanctify you completely. May your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

5:24Faithful is he who calls you, who will also do it

chatmaggot
January 30th, 2008, 03:00 PM
It might be better if I debate the man (Bob) formally, if he's interested. We can do a Battle Royale regarding this issue. Why do I need to discuss the book with a reader when I can debate the subject with the author himself.:think:

The above challenge went out in 2004...has there been any progress in a Battle Royale (being it's been a few years since there has been one)?