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Clete
February 2nd, 2004, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by Freak

[quote]The doctor told Shelton he would never walk or use his hands again." Never walk. But God healed him.
Or the doctor was over zealous in his negative prognosis.




Healing is not simply reserved for believers.
Miraculous healing is!




Does it matter if a healing occurs within 5 minutes, 15 minutes, or 3 months?
5 minutes is too long for such a miracle as you described. When God performs a physical miracle He does it in such a fashion as to leave no doubt about its source. A three month healing can just as easily be attributed to something other than a direct intervention from God.





Sanctification--the miracle of the conforming to the likeness of Jesus Christ lasts usually longer then 3 months.
One more response of this nature will end my participation in this discussion. I will only say it once more. This is not the type of miracle we are discussing and you know it.





Yes, I have performed hundreds of miracles...I have a number of videos that document such miracles. Send me your mailing address & I'll send it off to you.
If what you've given here is a good example of what is on the tape then don't waste the postage. However, if what is on the tape genuinely creative physical miracles where the physical change is self evident AND verifiable then give a good example of what's on the tape and I'll PM you my address.





But, as I mentioned to you before, my belief in miracles is rooted not in experience but in Scripture...
I have not disputed the foundation of your belief and am not debating the Scriptural basis for such a belief. While it is true that I disagree with your Biblical reasoning, it isn't necessary to debate this particular issue from that perspective. Biblical reasoning can be debated forever without resolution because those involved in the debate are not usually attempting to resolve anything in the first place, but physical evidence speaks for itself. If you cannot produce credible evidence that physical miracles are occurring today then it is logically inescapable that your Biblical reasoning is flawed at best and more likely completely wrong altogether.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

Clete
February 2nd, 2004, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by godrulz

I saw Nita Edwards give her testimony and have the book "Miracle in the Mirror" (1981 Welch) by credible missionary in India, Mark Buntain (who I also met in Bible College). Her medically verifiable miracle was of this magnitude as she lay totally paralyzed in Sri Lanka. God healed her instantly after He revealed the very day, hour, and minute that she would be healed. The power of God hit her and she literally flew out of bed able to walk.The power of God hit her and she landed on her feet totally healed. This led to the conversion of many Buddhist nurses and doctors. She was paralyzed, and I definitely saw her walking. It was Jesus Christ her Savior and Lord who healed her for His glory and the advancement of His Kingdom in a dark country.

Verifiable how?

Knight
February 2nd, 2004, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
You know full well the points I was getting across in my last post and yet you chose to respond as though I was making an entirely different point and you completely ignore the thrust of my argument. If I only had a dime for all the times I have typed that sentence to Freak... :D

Knight
February 2nd, 2004, 08:51 PM
I apologize in advance if this has been mentioned but has anyone reviewed miracle dynamics? (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=121169#post121169)

godrulz
February 2nd, 2004, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Verifiable how?

Read the book. The doctors and hospital treated for an extended time as a paralytic (Xrays, etc. she fell down stairs and was paralyzed). The Buddhist nurses/doctor (?) witnessed her fly through the air and land able to walk. I saw her speak in person. She is not a fraud. She could walk and substantiate her miracle.

How many do you need for proof? This is one of many published or verifiable stories. I could understand an atheist being skeptical, but a lover of God and His Word? (I know you don't have the proof in front of you...your opinion does not negate this incredible event that happened in your life time). I am convinced your understanding and theology is wrong, not the validated miracle or God's Word (I have the book in front of me). God was glorified in her testimony, and people were saved in India and our church where she spoke in the 80s (we also prayed for the sick with people being healed...salavation= 'wholeness' (Gk.)= physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual= the whole man, not just saved from hell).

Turbo
February 2nd, 2004, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
You know full well the points I was getting across in my last post and yet you chose to respond as though I was making an entirely different point and you completely ignore the thrust of my argument.


Originally posted by Knight

If I only had a dime for all the times I have typed that sentence to Freak... :D Same here! :wave:

And if I had a Jeep for every time Freak has offered to give me his Jeep, I'd have a Jeep. :)

Knight
February 2nd, 2004, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Same here! :wave:

And if I had a Jeep for every time Freak has offered to give me his Jeep, I'd have a Jeep. :) :chuckle:

godrulz
February 2nd, 2004, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by Knight

I apologize in advance if this has been mentioned but has anyone reviewed miracle dynamics? (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=121169#post121169)

Maybe argues against the lunatic fringe of the Word-Faith movement. Overall weak arguments against miracles or divine healing for today (most Pentecostals recognize that not everyone will be healed all the time due to God's sovereignty, unbelief, living in a fallen world with bodies that are not glorified, etc.). Just because Paul left someone sick does not mean he argues against miracles or healing for believers or the lost. The epistles are not historical narratives like Acts (+ they have teaching on the spiritual gifts) so what is the graph trying to show (not mentioning miracles in every paragraph of doctrinal/practical letters does not mean a credible theology cannot be developed from all of Scripture)?

Either Enyart is making one simple observation about miracles and his followers are wrongly using it as an anti-Pentecostal polemic, or Enyart needs to make a better case against miracles.

Freak
February 3rd, 2004, 06:35 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
Or the doctor was over zealous in his negative prognosis. The facts stand.


Miraculous healing is! No. The Scriptures speak of Jesus healing all He had compassion on. Did He just have compassion for those who believed?

Matthew 14:14
When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

Matthew 4:23-24
News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed, and he healed them.


5 minutes is too long for such a miracle as you described. Says the Bible?


When God performs a physical miracle He does it in such a fashion as to leave no doubt about its source. We do know that sometimes this kind of healing did not manifest immediately. Even when Jesus healed some it took time. One blind man had to be healed twice because the first time he could still only see in a blur, and the officialís son in Capernaum began to get better.


A three month healing can just as easily be attributed to something other than a direct intervention from God. So says you. Hebrews 6:12 says that we inherit the promises through faith and patience, and James 1:4 says that we must let patience have her perfect work so that we can be entire and wanting nothing.


One more response of this nature will end my participation in this discussion. I will only say it once more. This is not the type of miracle we are discussing and you know it. Just merely pointing out that all miracles are not seen immediately. My point was proven.


If what you've given here is a good example of what is on the tape then don't waste the postage. However, if what is on the tape genuinely creative physical miracles where the physical change is self evident AND verifiable then give a good example of what's on the tape and I'll PM you my address.

Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.

This is something I have done hundreds of times. This would be considered a miracle in the eyes of Jesus. As Jesus equated the ministry of casting out demons as a miracle. Some of the miracles I have on video were witnessed by scores of people.


I have not disputed the foundation of your belief and am not debating the Scriptural basis for such a belief. And this has been a problem. Because my belief in the reality of miracles is rooted in Scripture not in experience. Yey, you're wanting me to share stories and link you to realities of physical miracles. I could do that all day and you could dismiss them for one reason or another. But with Scripture as our standard one can be convinced of this absolute truth.


While it is true that I disagree with your Biblical reasoning, Ok. You disagree then show me where I'm wrong. Nobody has accomplished that yet. I find it strange that nobody has dealt with the Scriptural foundation of my belief that miracles occur today. It speaks volumes.


Biblical reasoning can be debated forever without resolution because those involved in the debate are not usually attempting to resolve anything in the first place, Huh? Scripture is our objective truth standard not physical evidence. There is no physical evidence of the nature of the Trinity, yet we believe it due to the reality of the Scriptures.


but physical evidence speaks for itself. Ok. Here is a well documented physical evidence of a miracle that I have mentioned 3 times now. Deal with this:

Were there miracles on the set of THE PASSION during filming?

(A) Mel Gibson states in an interview, "There have been a lot of unusual things happening, good things like people being healed of diseases, a couple of people have had sight and hearing restored, another guy was struck by lightning while we were filming the crucifixion scene and he just got up and walked away."

http://www.passion-movie.com/english/faq3.html


If you cannot produce credible evidence that physical miracles are occurring today then it is logically inescapable that your Biblical reasoning is flawed at best and more likely completely wrong altogether.

You have put experience before the truth of Scripture. You have it all twisted. If the Bible says it then we believe it and it's not because the physical evidence proves it. This is why we believe miracles are for today--because the Scriptural evidence not because of the physical evidence. The just shall live by faith not by sight.

Clete, if the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

If Jesusí miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldnít they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Canít we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?


Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete Should be read: Resting in His physical evidence. :kookoo:

Homework: We are told in Holy Scripture that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. Clete, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.

Clete, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this????

Under the New Covenant, the superior covenant, we are taught numerous times of the reality of spiritual gifts and miracles. In fact...

At least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Poster, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him

Freak
February 3rd, 2004, 06:45 AM
Originally posted by Knight

I apologize in advance if this has been mentioned but has anyone reviewed miracle dynamics? Yes and that is why we have this thread. Poor Biblical understanding of miracles...(Knight, perhaps, you'd like to take a jab at these questions since nobody else has)...

Let me preface by saying my belief in miracles is rooted not in experience but in Scripture...

We are told in Holy Scripture that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. Knight, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.

Knight, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this????

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

If Jesusí miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldnít they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Canít we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?


Under the New Covenant, the superior covenant, we are taught numerous times of the reality of spiritual gifts and miracles. In fact...

At least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Knight, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Clete
February 3rd, 2004, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by godrulz

Read the book. The doctors and hospital treated for an extended time as a paralytic (X-rays, etc. she fell down stairs and was paralyzed). The Buddhist nurses/doctor (?) witnessed her fly through the air and land able to walk. I saw her speak in person. She is not a fraud. She could walk and substantiate her miracle.
The publication of a book establishes nothing. There is book after book "documenting" one lunatic or another speaking to the dead or taking trips to hell or to heaven or whatever. And the authors of these books make their rounds speaking to large audiences of people who are all convinced that they are telling the truth. You don't suppose that any of these are actually true do you?


How many do you need for proof?
How many? Well we haven't gotten past 1 yet. Let's take it one step at a time shall we?


This is one of many published or verifiable stories.
It is published but not verifiable. Nor do I believe that you have ever come across one that is both.


I could understand an atheist being skeptical, but a lover of God and His Word? (I know you don't have the proof in front of you...your opinion does not negate this incredible event that happened in your life time).
That you believe happened. Have you ever noticed that all of the so called verified miracles never happen except in ridiculously far away or remote places? It sort of like UFO's, they only show up in the middle of nowhere. They are always just in the right spot to be sort of credible but not verifiable.
And just to reiterate. I am not skeptical of God's ability to perform miracles. I just do not believe that He is doing so now.


God was glorified in her testimony, and people were saved in India and our church where she spoke in the 80s (we also prayed for the sick with people being healed...salvation= 'wholeness' (Gk.)= physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual= the whole man, not just saved from hell).
Were people saved in response to her testimony or in response to having witnessed a miracle?
If in response to her testimony then there is no surprise.
If in response to having witnessed the miracle then I would say that this is near proof that the miracle didnít happen. Had it actually happened, the normal response would have been for those who witnessed it to hate God.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

1Way
February 3rd, 2004, 03:04 PM
Everyone knows generally why we are discussing this, but exactly what does people like Freak and Bob Enyart have in mind when they teach about biblical miracles?


Step one, establish what a miracle is, and what it is not


Everyone


From my perspective, folks have not yet established what a miracle actually is in this thread. Freak keeps giving us "an example" as though that clarifies everything, and DrBrumley gave a good definition, ,,, but ,,, so far no one has explained what it means yet, and so several very different understandings of what a miracle is are just floating around quietly enjoying (shhhhhh) their contradictory existance wondering if they will ever be found out.

Please consider what has been posted reaching up to step one, making it clear what we are all talking about, using the same terms and ideas, not conflicting ones.

:think:


DrBrumley said From the Plot
An event that supersedes natural or supernatural law1Way said
DrBrumley - Excellent. We (few may) understand what those words imply, but I think most people do not, especially those like Freak who pretend to know what Bob teaches, but really only have a superficial understanding.

Please (everyone) help us illustrate very plainly this correct answer (or watch patiently as DrBrumley will naturally develop it) so that everyone may clearly understand what Bob is saying the bible teaches about the nature of what a miracle really is. This issue is a very important one, and helps us get into a seriously humbling and biblically conforming mindset when it comes to making claims about the things of God.

You get an A for correctness and an A+++ for the art of brevity. (chuckles) Keep up the good work.
and

1Way said
godrulz - As to
godrulz said
"An event that supersedes natural or supernatural law"? Is that our working definition from Enyart? It is reasonable to assume that there is more than one way to define miracle based on a composite of word studies and context from Scripture (dictionaries define words with different word orders, but mean the same general thing).1Way said
From memory, perhaps 4-5 years ago, I think that definition is correct, yet it is highly underdeveloped in terms of what does that mean. And yes, there are way too many ways to define what a miracle is, that is a huge part of the problem. We need to have a more united and biblically comprehensive understanding which has been largely passed over by many and mainstream authorities/traditions. I have a sense for it, but I am not (currently) prepared to expose it without reconsidering the information involved, that is why I am currently seeking everyone elses help on this. I'm not even sure if this was best illustrated in the written Plot, or the audio tapes. Yet the meaning and demonstration of a good bible honoring search for the truth is crucial to this entire endeavor. I really hope someone will illustrate and develop what Bob says a miracle really is and what it is not, and the biblical principles that govern these findings. It really shows a deeply devotional side of Bob's ministry and thoughtfulness prior to putting his teachings on paper.

I'm thinking of my dear old favorite, the truth in context. We can be almost right in a foundational idea, and the error is just multiplied as we errantly move on under a weak foundation.

I'll see if I can do justice to this development, but it would so encouraging to see others be so understanding prior to judging against his view (Like Freak for example). I think that is why the Dr. has not yet spilled the beans, but only opened the can, shrewd the wise Dr. is. :o

You said
godrulz said
please clarify the last part...what does it mean to supersede a supernatural law (this seems to be a redundant statement)?? 1Way said
Exactly to the point. God's ways are extremely ordered and conventional despite them being greater than our ways, they are also highly understandable at least on a fundamental basis. We say God is good and wise, not just because the bible says so, but because of His awesome ways in creation for example. We also say God is intellectual, personal, moral, social, creative, etc. etc. etc. And we say all these not just from a head knowledge of reading His word, but because He demonstrates His qualities in reality. Same sort of comprehensive discernment is involved in this sort of search for what a miracle really is. Go beyond the superficial, and get to the heart of it all.

As for me, until I locate this excellent treatment of what a miracle really is, I do not want to mess it up, I have never heard anyone put it as well as he did, and I know I would not do it justice prior to doing a formal review. This will be a great exercise. Perhaps you might be of some service yourself? I am pretty sure this teaching is in the written Plot.

This entire thread is about Bob's teachings on miracles, via The Plot or other writings or audio recorded teachings, and it was supposed to be for Freak and crew to challenge (refute) Bob's teachings. So I think it is about time we at least deal with our various understandings of what a biblical miracle really is.

I think it would be a good idea to cover this issue early on, and not wait another couple hundred posts. :o :darwinsm:

Quoting DrBrumley
Hope this helps!!!!!!

Freak
February 3rd, 2004, 03:09 PM
It may be time for a formal battle Royal Battle debate where 2 people can debate this issue without any disruptions.

That being said...the following Scriptural principles have been ignored.

Let me preface by saying my belief in miracles is rooted not in experience but in Scripture...

We are told in Holy Scripture that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. 1Way, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.

1Way, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this????

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

If Jesusí miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldnít they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Canít we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?


Under the New Covenant, the superior covenant, we are taught numerous times of the reality of spiritual gifts and miracles. In fact...

At least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. 1Way, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Zakath
February 3rd, 2004, 03:11 PM
But Jay, the question on the table is how do you define the term "miracle" in the context of this discussion??? :confused:

Freak
February 3rd, 2004, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Zakath

But Jay, the question on the table is how do you define the term "miracle" in the context of this discussion??? :confused: From post #18...

According to the Dictionary, a miracle is defined as:

Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin miraculum, from Latin, a wonder, marvel, from mirari to wonder at
Date: 12th century
1 : an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs

According to this definition a miracle would include the new birth along inner healing, deliverance from demons, physical healing, etc. Christ indwelling the believer, for example, is a "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs." Christ intervened in human affairs and manifested an extraordinary event--the new birth.

Jesus defined the casting out of demons as a miracle too...

Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.

Zakath
February 3rd, 2004, 03:26 PM
1Way's accepted defintion of miracle:
"An event that supercedes (sic) natural or supernatural law"
- from post 263

Jay Bartlett's accepted definition of a miracle:
"an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs"
- from post 266

Gentlemen,

Are the two definitions close enough for you to continue the discussion???

1Way
February 3rd, 2004, 03:27 PM
Zakath, more precisely,

what is and what is not a miracle

AND what is wrong with Bob Enyart's teaching about his understanding of what a biblical miracle is.
(not that Freak even knows what he teaches beyond a superficial understanding) :doh:

1Way
February 3rd, 2004, 03:36 PM
They are worlds apart. And Freak's holds a wide range of variation. Bob Enyart's is very clear and biblical proven and also demonstrates a biblically honorable way to approach God's word prior to judging some biblical topic.

A broken clock is right twice a day, lets at least work on Bob's definition since no one has yet to even explain it.

Zakath
February 3rd, 2004, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by 1Way

Zakath, more precisely,

what is and what is not a miracle

AND what is wrong with Bob Enyart's teaching about his understanding of what a biblical miracle is.
(not that Freak even knows what he teaches beyond a superficial understanding) :doh: Looking at both definitions, it seems that the "what is" portion is pretty clear...

If that is so, then by inference, everything else would fall into "what is not"...

I think you gents may be closer to your answer than it would appear. :think:

If you can get Jay to focus just a bit longer to clarify his thoughts on what Enyart actually teaches versus what Jay thinks he teaches... :thumb:

1Way
February 3rd, 2004, 03:45 PM
Thank you Zak, that is pretty accurate, and also by examing what he teaches, his God honoring meathod reminds us of how great God is, and how dependant upon Him we really should be. So there are at least two lessons to be learned on this single issue, if not more.

Not everyone knows what (sic) means, like me, what is that doing there, it was not part of the quoted text. What does that (sic) mean?

Zakath
February 3rd, 2004, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by 1Way

Not everyone knows what (sic) means, like me, what is that doing there, it was not part of the quoted text. By way of explanation, the "sic" using lower case letters in parentheses indicates that a quoted passage, especially one containing an error or unconventional spelling, has been retained in its original form or written intentionally.

The correct spelling is "supersede", with an "s" not a "c".

Freak
February 3rd, 2004, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by 1Way

Zakath, more precisely,

what is and what is not a miracle How many times do I have to quote to you what Jesus considered a miracle:

Jesus defined the casting out of demons as a miracle too...

Teacher," said John, "we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us."
"Do not stop him," Jesus said. "No one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, for whoever is not against us is for us. I tell you the truth, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to Christ will certainly not lose his reward.


AND what is wrong with Bob Enyart's teaching about his understanding of what a biblical miracle is. He believes miracles have ceased with the closing of the Canon of Scripture. This miliates against Scripture truth.


(not that Freak even knows what he teaches beyond a superficial understanding) I have provided ample Scriptural evidence to what I believe. Evidence you have ignored. :down:

Freak
February 3rd, 2004, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by 1Way

Thank you Zak, that is pretty accurate, and also by examing what he teaches, his God honoring meathod reminds us of how great God is, and how dependant upon Him we really should be. Not exactly. Quite the opposite. Enyart has rejected God's revealed Word on the subject...

We are told in Holy Scripture that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. 1Way, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.

1Way, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this????

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

If Jesusí miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldnít they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Canít we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?


Under the New Covenant, the superior covenant, we are taught numerous times of the reality of spiritual gifts and miracles. In fact...

At least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. 1Way, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

1Way
February 3rd, 2004, 07:24 PM
Like everyone has been saying all this time, you have not even shown that you understand what Bob teaches, you judge what you do not know and we wish you would stop doing that.

It's been over 200 posts and you have yet to make a single argument against his teachings (according to his teachings, not according to your vague understanding of his teachings).

I've challenged you on this issue every since the get go, but you NEVER provide any reasonable working knowledge of his teachings, if you don't accurately understand a teaching, it is impossible to accurately oppose it. In fact, I had to post the bulk of his arguments for you, and on top of that, you STILL did not refute ANY of them, you have not even addressed them that I am aware of.

It's becoming obvious that we have to let others from your basic viewpoint stand in for you, because at least they are showing an honest attempt to deal with what he actually teaches.

Freak
February 3rd, 2004, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by 1Way

Like everyone has been saying all this time, you have not even shown that you understand what Bob teaches, you judge what you do not know and we wish you would stop doing that. I have decided not to bother with your nonsense anymore. Your madness is annoying. I really believe there is something wrong with you mentally & spiritually.


It's been over 200 posts and you have yet to make a single argument against his teachings (according to his teachings, not according to your vague understanding of his teachings). Lie. I understand Bob's view regarding miracles. In fact, you responded that I was "accurate" in grasping his view on miracles.


I've challenged you on this issue every since the get go, but you NEVER provide any reasonable working knowledge of his teachings, if you don't accurately understand a teaching, it is impossible to accurately oppose it. In fact, I had to post the bulk of his arguments for you, and on top of that, you STILL did not refute ANY of them, you have not even addressed them that I am aware of. I have refuted all of them with Scripture--our objective standard for truth.

I'd rather deal with Clete, then with you, at least he's half-way intelligent and is capable of keeping up with the debate. All you provide us with is wordy posts with very little susbstance. :kookoo:

Freak
February 3rd, 2004, 08:00 PM
Anyone besides 1Way may attempt to deal with this...

Enyart has rejected God's revealed Word on the subject...

We are told in Holy Scripture that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. 1Way, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.

1Way, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this????

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

If Jesusí miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldnít they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Canít we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?


Under the New Covenant, the superior covenant, we are taught numerous times of the reality of spiritual gifts and miracles. In fact...

At least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. 1Way, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

godrulz
February 3rd, 2004, 08:02 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

The publication of a book establishes nothing. There is book after book "documenting" one lunatic or another speaking to the dead or taking trips to hell or to heaven or whatever. And the authors of these books make their rounds speaking to large audiences of people who are all convinced that they are telling the truth. You don't suppose that any of these are actually true do you?

GR: THERE ARE MANY SENSATIONAL, $ GRABBING BOOKS OUT THERE. THEIR CREDIBILITY BREAKS DOWN UPON EXAMINATION. THIS DOES NOT MEAN ALL BOOKS ABOUT MIRACLES ARE IN THIS CATEGORY. MARK BUNTAIN AND NITA EDWARDS ARE RESPECTED, CREDIBLE PEOPLE KNOWN IN SECULAR AND EVANGELICAL CIRCLES (due to his connection with Mother Theresa's ministry...He was an Assembly of God or PAOC missionary that does not tolerate flakes or frauds).


How many? Well we haven't gotten past 1 yet. Let's take it one step at a time shall we?

GR: YOUR WORD AGAINST MINE. I HATE DECEPTION AND AM COMFORTABLE WITH THE CLAIMS.


It is published but not verifiable. Nor do I believe that you have ever come across one that is both.

GR: IT IS VERIFIABLE IF YOU GET THE MEDICAL RECORDS IN INDIA OR PUT BUNTAIN OR EDWARDS ON A LIE DETECTOR WITH THE OTHER WITNESSES OF THE MIRACLE. WHY WOULD BUDDHISTS CONVERT ON THE SPOT AND NOT EXPOSE THE FRAUD? IT IS BECAUSE THE MIRACLE HAPPENED IN SPACE-TIME IN THE NAME OF JESUS. THEY WOULD BE GLAD TO DISPROVE IT, BUT GAVE UP FAMILY TO FOLLOW JESUS AS A RESULT OF THE POWER OF GOD THEY COULD NOT DENY.


That you believe happened. Have you ever noticed that all of the so called verified miracles never happen except in ridiculously far away or remote places? It sort of like UFO's, they only show up in the middle of nowhere. They are always just in the right spot to be sort of credible but not verifiable.
And just to reiterate. I am not skeptical of God's ability to perform miracles. I just do not believe that He is doing so now.

GR: YOUR MIND IS MADE UP SO SORRY FOR CONFUSING YOU WITH THE FACTS. I HAVE ALSO SEEN CREDIBLE AMERICANS WHO HAVE THEIR OWN TESTIMONY OF MIRACLES (go to Assembly of God churches and you will find believer's who can verify God's healing in their lives...)


Were people saved in response to her testimony or in response to having witnessed a miracle?
If in response to her testimony then there is no surprise.
If in response to having witnessed the miracle then I would say that this is near proof that the miracle didnít happen. Had it actually happened, the normal response would have been for those who witnessed it to hate God.

GR: BOTH/AND...THE PEOPLE IN INDIA WHO WERE EYEWITNESSES WERE SAVED IN RESPONSE TO THE MIRACLE AND THE GOSPEL. GOD CAN USE HIS WORD AND AN ANOINTED TESTIMONY TO BRING PEOPLE TO HIMSELF AFTER THE FACT. THIS IS MORE THAN DECEPTION OR EMOTIONALISM. THE SPIRIT BEARS WITNESS THAT IT WAS GOD. YOU ARE BEGGING THE QUESTION. YOU ARE ASSUMING WRONGLY THAT MIRACLES DO NOT EXIST AND THAT THEY ALWAYS LEAD TO GOD-HATRED. YOUR PREMISE IS FALLACIOUS AS IS YOUR CONCLUSION. Sometimes miracles do lead to unbelief due to hard hearts, BUT OTHER TIMES (as I am sharing) THEY DO LEAD TO LIFE-CHANGING FAITH. THERE IS NOTHING IN SCRIPTURE, LOGIC, OR EXPERIENCE TO PRECLUDE THIS POSSIBILITY.

GR: Clete, YOU ARE NORMALLY RATIONAL and LOGICAL. I AM SURPRISED AT YOUR UNBELIEF, CLINGING TO A PRECONCEIVED THEOLOGY, AND logical fallacy of circular reasoning (you assume Enyart's view is correct and illogically deny evidence to the contrary rather than recognize the possibility that you must assume your premise to maintain your conclusions in the face of contrary evidence).

drbrumley
February 3rd, 2004, 08:05 PM
Freak,

Before I answer your homework assignment, please answer the following:

What does this scripture speak to you about?

1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Your answer will be appreciated.

In Christ,
DRBrumley

godrulz
February 3rd, 2004, 08:13 PM
The love chapter is in the context of spiritual gifts (I Cor. 12-14). It is not about love in marriage. It is about the use and misuse of spiritual gifts in the Corinthian church. It is not a diatribe against spiritual gifts for the modern church. Context will not allow you to use any verse in I Cor. 13 to argue against the reality or validity of miracles or spiritual gifts (the 'scholars' who use it as an anti-Pentecostal proof text are pathetic exegetes).

The perfect is not the closed canon of Scripture. The perfect comes at the Second Coming of Christ for His Bride, not at the end of the first century.

freelight
February 3rd, 2004, 08:46 PM
Regarding definitions of 'miracle' -

Zakath quotes:



1Way's accepted defintion of miracle:
"An event that supercedes (sic) natural or supernatural law"
- from post 263

Jay Bartlett's accepted definition of a miracle:
"an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs"
- from post 266



Freak writes:

From post #18...

According to the Dictionary, a miracle is defined as:

Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin miraculum, from Latin, a wonder, marvel, from mirari to wonder at
Date: 12th century
1 : an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs

According to this definition a miracle would include the new birth along inner healing, deliverance from demons, physical healing, etc. Christ indwelling the believer, for example, is a "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs." Christ intervened in human affairs and manifested an extraordinary event--the new birth.




:crow: )=============== I think the broader more general accepted defintion of what a miracle is .... is acceptable here as Freak and godrulz understanding of miracles is much more in sync and spirit with the NT than a limiting dispensational view which denies miracles as happening in this age of grace outright. God is at work everywhere in our world and lives....in the natural dynamics of life....and supernatural....even transcendental - Gods presence and glory is in all dimensions! What folly of man to no longer have faith in Gods infinite power and the faith of Christ that abides in his soul thru the Holy Spirit - that anointed treasure that lies within these earthen vessels! What a shame....and a lack of spiritual understanding of the inheritance we have in the Anointed One...and the charismas of His Spirit which He has certainly anointed His church with to do the works of God in the earth. Hence Jesus says....'when the Son of Man returns to earth...WILL HE FIND FAITH?' (paraphrase).

Jesus teaches faith......a kind that inspires miracles and the unlimited power of God. Jesus says signs will follow those who believe. Miracles of all kinds on all levels of being, in all dimensions of experience ...transpire for those who abide in faith, in grace, in Christ.

If you choose to call yourselves believers...then it would be logical to become spiritually adjusted to the attitude of faith...which would then qualify you to 'actually' become believers of the Lord Jesus and true to his teachings....instead of 'biblically correct' patrons of a brand of theology ....while denying the power of God.

"Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them and you will have them.'


- Jesus


The majority of miracles(on all levels) happen in this NT dispensation of grace thru the dynamics of faith and the Holy Spirit.

For those who deny this....only shows their lack of trusting in the power of God...and the release of the dynamic of faith in seeing God move and act in the midst of His people. This lack of faith is sin according to one apostle. The power, glory and anointing of God rests upon the the body of His Christ....who are anointed and empowered in this day and age....to do the works of God....therefore the truth shall arrest those convicted....and by a miracle shall usher them into this holy dimension of the Spirits power.

I would rather be found to have an overabundance of faith than none or little. Jesus could not do the works of God in some regions for their faith was little. Faith is an essential part of the inspiration of miracles in many cases in this dispensation...and by it...we enter into the pleasures of God....and the dynamic that governs and sustains all creative interplays - the laws of light, energy, mind, spirit - these mediate the frequencies which govern manifestation. God can certainly do miracles apart from mans exercise of faith....however in this age...he chooses to allow man the privelege to exercise what he divinely gives them....thru cooperation and covenant rights.

Will Christ come to you or your church...and say 'O ye of little faith?'

This is why I have expounded on the element of faith relative to miracles in this thread.....as it seems to be overlooked here. Without faith....is it possible to please God? And those that limit faith should even be more careful of limiting not only God given faith...but by association and source the very power of God!


paul

1Way
February 4th, 2004, 12:02 AM
The new title for this thread should be...


"Freak has only a superficial understanding of The Plot over miracles"


subtitle

It doesn't matter, he's still wrong anyway!



godrulz -

What about you? Your still reading The Plot right? Don't have time to read that chapter and copy down the main points about what Bob found to be a biblical miracle?

godrulz
February 4th, 2004, 12:26 AM
I am sorry but I have been busy and tired and have not been reading Plot. When I do, it is a couple of pages at a time, because I want to understand the teaching and look up verses.

Freak
February 4th, 2004, 05:43 AM
Originally posted by godrulz

The love chapter is in the context of spiritual gifts (I Cor. 12-14). It is not about love in marriage. It is about the use and misuse of spiritual gifts in the Corinthian church. It is not a diatribe against spiritual gifts for the modern church. Context will not allow you to use any verse in I Cor. 13 to argue against the reality or validity of miracles or spiritual gifts (the 'scholars' who use it as an anti-Pentecostal proof text are pathetic exegetes).

The perfect is not the closed canon of Scripture. The perfect comes at the Second Coming of Christ for His Bride, not at the end of the first century. Excellent. :up: The perfect one is Jesus Himself--

Freak
February 4th, 2004, 05:44 AM
Originally posted by freelight

Regarding definitions of 'miracle' -

Zakath quotes:



1Way's accepted defintion of miracle:
"An event that supercedes (sic) natural or supernatural law"
- from post 263

Jay Bartlett's accepted definition of a miracle:
"an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs"
- from post 266



Freak writes:

From post #18...

According to the Dictionary, a miracle is defined as:

Etymology: Middle English, from Old French, from Late Latin miraculum, from Latin, a wonder, marvel, from mirari to wonder at
Date: 12th century
1 : an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs

According to this definition a miracle would include the new birth along inner healing, deliverance from demons, physical healing, etc. Christ indwelling the believer, for example, is a "an extraordinary event manifesting divine intervention in human affairs." Christ intervened in human affairs and manifested an extraordinary event--the new birth.




:crow: )=============== I think the broader more general accepted defintion of what a miracle is .... is acceptable here as Freak and godrulz understanding of miracles is much more in sync and spirit with the NT than a limiting dispensational view which denies miracles as happening in this age of grace outright. God is at work everywhere in our world and lives....in the natural dynamics of life....and supernatural....even transcendental - Gods presence and glory is in all dimensions! What folly of man to no longer have faith in Gods infinite power and the faith of Christ that abides in his soul thru the Holy Spirit - that anointed treasure that lies within these earthen vessels! What a shame....and a lack of spiritual understanding of the inheritance we have in the Anointed One...and the charismas of His Spirit which He has certainly anointed His church with to do the works of God in the earth. Hence Jesus says....'when the Son of Man returns to earth...WILL HE FIND FAITH?' (paraphrase).

Jesus teaches faith......a kind that inspires miracles and the unlimited power of God. Jesus says signs will follow those who believe. Miracles of all kinds on all levels of being, in all dimensions of experience ...transpire for those who abide in faith, in grace, in Christ.

If you choose to call yourselves believers...then it would be logical to become spiritually adjusted to the attitude of faith...which would then qualify you to 'actually' become believers of the Lord Jesus and true to his teachings....instead of 'biblically correct' patrons of a brand of theology ....while denying the power of God.

"Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them and you will have them.'


- Jesus


The majority of miracles(on all levels) happen in this NT dispensation of grace thru the dynamics of faith and the Holy Spirit.

For those who deny this....only shows their lack of trusting in the power of God...and the release of the dynamic of faith in seeing God move and act in the midst of His people. This lack of faith is sin according to one apostle. The power, glory and anointing of God rests upon the the body of His Christ....who are anointed and empowered in this day and age....to do the works of God....therefore the truth shall arrest those convicted....and by a miracle shall usher them into this holy dimension of the Spirits power.

I would rather be found to have an overabundance of faith than none or little. Jesus could not do the works of God in some regions for their faith was little. Faith is an essential part of the inspiration of miracles in many cases in this dispensation...and by it...we enter into the pleasures of God....and the dynamic that governs and sustains all creative interplays - the laws of light, energy, mind, spirit - these mediate the frequencies which govern manifestation. God can certainly do miracles apart from mans exercise of faith....however in this age...he chooses to allow man the privelege to exercise what he divinely gives them....thru cooperation and covenant rights.

Will Christ come to you or your church...and say 'O ye of little faith?'

This is why I have expounded on the element of faith relative to miracles in this thread.....as it seems to be overlooked here. Without faith....is it possible to please God? And those that limit faith should even be more careful of limiting not only God given faith...but by association and source the very power of God!


paul Appreciate your work and posts,
Paul. :up:

Clete
February 4th, 2004, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by Freak
This is something I have done hundreds of times. This would be considered a miracle in the eyes of Jesus. As Jesus equated the ministry of casting out demons as a miracle. Some of the miracles I have on video were witnessed by scores of people.
The Biblical evidence indicates that the majority of people who witness miracles hate God and persecute those who perform them. If this is not the case for those who witnessed your exorcism then I take that as direct evidence that it was not real (although I do not doubt that you believe it to have been quite real. In other words, Iím not calling you a liar).


And this has been a problem. Because my belief in the reality of miracles is rooted in Scripture not in experience. Yet, you're wanting me to share stories and link you to realities of physical miracles. I could do that all day and you could dismiss them for one reason or another. But with Scripture as our standard one can be convinced of this absolute truth....

Scripture is our objective truth standard not physical evidence. There is no physical evidence of the nature of the Trinity, yet we believe it due to the reality of the Scriptures.

Freak, why do you try to miss the point? Are you here just to be arguing or are you actually trying to learn something by spending this much time and energy? I never said that my belief is based on physical evidence nor did I deny the absolute truth of the scripture. I am merely coming at this topic from a direction that can more easily avoid the emotional pitfalls of attempting to hash out the differing doctrinal interpretations of Scripture.
My entire point is that I have a curtain understanding of scripture on this issue (I agree with Bob Enyart) and you have an opposing view of Scripture and thatís all well and good. The problem is that both of our interpretations of Scripture predict that certain things either will or will not happen and so an excellent test for who's Biblical interpretation is correct is to see who's predictions turn out to be right.
You say creative physical miracles should be evident in the church today. If there is no evidence then you are wrong and so is your Biblical interpretations.
I say that there should not be evident and if evidence is produced then I am wrong and so are my interpretations.
So far you have shown exactly zero even remotely verifiable evidence.
Therefore I have both the testimony of Scripture and the testimony implicit in the absence of any physical evidence the contrary.


Ok. You disagree then show me where I'm wrong. Nobody has accomplished that yet. I find it strange that nobody has dealt with the Scriptural foundation of my belief that miracles occur today. It speaks volumes.
It speaks nothing except that nobody finds it necessary to do so.
If you have in fact read and understood "The Plot" then you have already been shown where you are wrong and no further showing would be of any value to you or anyone else on this thread.




Ok. Here is a well documented physical evidence of a miracle that I have mentioned 3 times now. Deal with this:

Were there miracles on the set of THE PASSION during filming?

(A) Mel Gibson states in an interview, "There have been a lot of unusual things happening, good things like people being healed of diseases, a couple of people have had sight and hearing restored, another guy was struck by lightning while we were filming the crucifixion scene and he just got up and walked away."

http://www.passion-movie.com/english/faq3.html
Do you know what the VARIFIABLE means?
This quote gives no names of those who experienced these miracles or even of those who witnessed them. Imagine that! Someone got struck by lightning on one of Mel Gibson's movie sets and it never even made on the evening news! A movie, by the way, that was specifiaclly about acts of God! Now that's a miracle!



You have put experience before the truth of Scripture. You have it all twisted. If the Bible says it then we believe it and it's not because the physical evidence proves it. This is why we believe miracles are for today--because the Scriptural evidence not because of the physical evidence. The just shall live by faith not by sight.
See above for my reaction to all but the last sentence of this paragraph.
"The just shall live by faith, not by sight."
When miracles happen, are they not seen? Is a miracles not direct undeniable proof of the existence of God? This passage of scripture is as good as any to explain why miracles have stopped happening! God wants for people to have faith "for without faith it is impossible to please God". Miracles do away with a need for faith and therefore make it more difficult to come to God. The more miracles that happen the more evil the people who witness them become (generally speaking).


Should be read: Resting in His physical evidence. :kookoo:
You miss the point again! Although I'm happy to see that someone finally noticed my slightly modified closing that I've been using exclusively on this thread.
Ever ask the question, "Why did Jesus respond "My Grace is sufficient for you." when Paul asked to be healed?
If this response was proper for Paul, why isn't it proper for the rest of the Body of Christ?

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

drbrumley
February 4th, 2004, 09:31 AM
Ever ask the question, "Why did Jesus respond "My Grace is sufficient for you." when Paul asked to be healed?
If this response was proper for Paul, why isn't it proper for the rest of the Body of Christ?

Now that is a great question. Keep it going Clete! Good Job:thumb:

godrulz
February 4th, 2004, 12:11 PM
Paul's case was a very specific 'thorn in the flesh/messenger from Satan'. It is not a normative didactic passage, but a historical narrative. Apart from extreme Word-Faith, Pentecostals are not claiming that everyone will be healed all the time. The world and spiritual reality is complex and cannot be reduced to a formula (nor can the person of God). Finding an example of someone who is not healed does not negate the examples in Scripture or modern times of those who are healed. You guys are usually smarter than that. I don't get why you would use the example of Timothy being left sick or Paul having a thorn for a God-given purpose to try to negate dozens of explicit healing and miracle verses. This seems like an anti-intellectual, willful blindness to preserve "The Plot's" simplistic conclusions that cannot stand up to scrutiny (Scripture/experience).

This is a similar exegetical error as saying Acts 16:31 is a generic promise (didactic principle) rather than a specific case (historical narrative). You can claim the verse all you want, but it will not absolutely guarantee that everyone in your family will become Christians (free will trumps this...it is a proof text out of context to make it a universal promise; cf. saying that Paul was not delivered, so noone should expect to ever be healed).

1Way
February 4th, 2004, 12:20 PM
DrBrumley - Sorry if I missed your responses, but I missed any responses to what I have been saying about one of your responses to my question (though sometimes my remarks about you were directed at godrulz or Freak, still I continue in hopes of hearing from you).

Did your present your explanation of what a miracle is, the way that you did, as briefly as you did, for a specific reason? And was it the one I suggested? (To see if Freak even understands what it means. To see if Freak even challenges that idea or not.) If not, why?

And, do you agree with me that it is usually a good idea when debating "an" issue, to have a fairly mutual understanding about what the topic actually is. Some people think that just about anything is a miracle and others are far more biblically strict. So far, everyone on the opposing side (of Enyart) is largely ignorant of 1) the differences involved, and also 2) of the honorable method for seeking out the truth of the matter from God's word.

1Way
February 4th, 2004, 12:34 PM
godrulz - Not normative, ??? That is a pretty thin response.

Like even you said earlier, miracles tapered off towards the end of the first century, that is a comprehensive and accurate statement, that represents what was to be expected, that is what a norm is. Early in the first century, physical healing would have been considered a very dull miracle, but after all that was ending, healings and signs and such seemed to have all but disappeared, i.e. became not normative. (!!!)

If I have the facts right, Paul had physical illness, not just a spiritual torment, bad eyesight for example. And wasn't most of the 12 and Paul killed and thousands of believing Christians tortured and persecuted without (biblically accurate) miracles saving them as more like the norm prior to when the miracles were ceasing.

And it's not about what YOU expect about miracles, so much as what God's word teaches about them that matter. We see God's brilliant consistency by stopping with miracles, but some do not. If there is a really good reason for God to stop doing miracles the way He did, then our expectations for miracles may be fully beside the point. First understand God and His ways, then form your faith and expectations accordingly.

Clete
February 4th, 2004, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by godrulz

Paul's case was a very specific 'thorn in the flesh/messenger from Satan'. It is not a normative didactic passage, but a historical narrative. Apart from extreme Word-Faith, Pentecostals are not claiming that everyone will be healed all the time. The world and spiritual reality is complex and cannot be reduced to a formula (nor can the person of God). Finding an example of someone who is not healed does not negate the examples in Scripture or modern times of those who are healed. You guys are usually smarter than that. I don't get why you would use the example of Timothy being left sick or Paul having a thorn for a God-given purpose to try to negate dozens of explicit healing and miracle verses. This seems like an anti-intellectual, willful blindness to preserve "The Plot's" simplistic conclusions that cannot stand up to scrutiny (Scripture/experience).

This is a similar exegetical error as saying Acts 16:31 is a generic promise (didactic principle) rather than a specific case (historical narrative). You can claim the verse all you want, but it will not absolutely guarantee that everyone in your family will become Christians (free will trumps this...it is a proof text out of context to make it a universal promise; cf. saying that Paul was not delivered, so noone should expect to ever be healed).
Non responsive!

The question was...
Why did Jesus respond "My Grace is sufficient for you." when Paul asked to be healed?
If this response was proper for Paul, why isn't it proper for the rest of the Body of Christ?



This seems like an anti-intellectual, willful blindness to preserve "The Plot's" simplistic conclusions that cannot stand up to scrutiny (Scripture/experience).
You have this backward my friend! I could say this exact same thing about your position except that I would have the advantage of being able to also say the following...

I still have no verifiable evidence of even a single physical miracle happening today, which your position demands must be in abundence.


Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

godrulz
February 4th, 2004, 01:01 PM
Why assume that miracles were a dime a dozen in biblical times? It might seem like that since we are getting a condensed history (Mark was fast paced and seems like miracles were common place, when they probably were not). The volume of miracles is not an issue. It is wrong to assume that the tapering of miracles was a dispensational necessity, rather than the Church's zeal and truth being dulled by an unbelieving world or Catholicism, for example. This does not account for the modern revivals and outpouring of the Spirit that is well documented.

We live in a spiritual warzone with casualties. We live in bodies that are not glorified. Saying that the apostles were sick or died only confirms the warfare model proposed by Open Theist Greg Boyd. This is not an argument against the validity of healing and miracles for today. Resurrection is the ultimate hope, but God still gives us tokens or wholeness and healing along the way (i.e. being healed of cancer or having the lame instantly walk enhances quality of life until we inevitably did...residual consequence of the Fall). Healing, miracles, death, disease, suffering are not mutually exclusive, but are part of our experience between the cradle and the grave.

The Word rightly promises us suffering, persecution, death, AND healing and miracles (at God's discretion..not normative, but certainly possible and in fact happening).

What is the supposedly good reason for God to stop being God as revealed in Christ? What is the Scriptural or logical argument necessitating an anti-supernaturalistic world view in favor of a functionally atheistic naturalistic worldview? i.e. why would the supernatural God birth His church in power with spiritual giftings, only to quickly withdraw them. There is another possiblity. It was not God's intent or fault that truth and the Spirit's ministry became diluted or despised.

1Way
February 4th, 2004, 01:26 PM
godrulz - You are honoring a tradition that is not cogent with scripture, you said
Why assume that miracles were a dime a dozen in biblical times? It might seem like that since we are getting a condensed history (Mark was fast paced and seems like miracles were common place, when they probably were not). The volume of miracles is not an issue. It is wrong to assume that the tapering of miracles was a dispensational necessity, rather than the Church's zeal and truth being dulled by an unbelieving world or Catholicism, for example. This does not account for the modern revivals and outpouring of the Spirit that is well documented.
What is this about a dime a dozen? The bible does not remotely reflect such an idea, and neither do we! What exactly are you thinking about when you say that?

"The church's zeal and truth being dulled by an unbelieving world", ,,, They hated and eventually KILLED Christ, do you think THAT was an unbelieving worldly event, yet that did not dissuade God from donig miracles back then, although they did swain soon after, but not primarily because of the world's unbelief dulling the church's zeal. That is such an unbiblical remark, but it is highly reflective of a manmade tradition. The bible does not indicate that miracles are in any way dependent upon the faith or lack there of in the world, in fact, most of the OT refutes your notion in the highest degree, because the unbelieving nations were usually the ones that God miraculously wiped out, God's miracles even plagued Israel like 40 years of eating manna hot cakes, and manna juicies and manna side dishes and manna after manna after more manna, and other such notables, like opening up the earth and swallowing them up. Often, unbelief was the precurser to a biblical miracle, so your answer is a high consentration of manmade error, and wishful thinking.

I hope you are getting a clue here, if you want to have a good and godly faith, it needs to conform to God and His word, not man and his word.

I said
Early in the first century, physical healing would have been considered a very dull miracle, but after all that was ending, healings and signs and such seemed to have all but disappeared, i.e. became not normative. (!!!) Water was turned into wine, Jesus walked on water, the dead was raised, unformed stub limbs grew out into being full formed hands, the blind could see, the death could hear, the lame could walk, Jesus went rocketed out of sight without rockets, Jesus rose from the dead, lepers were healed, I mean come on already, these sorts of things have not occurred since they were recorded in bible times. And to have the 12 and Paul and their converts sick and slaughtered after the many miracles earlier in their lives, is a tremendous shift in norms.

Freak
February 4th, 2004, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

The Biblical evidence indicates that the majority of people who witness miracles hate God and persecute those who perform them. That may happen at times. So. The preaching of the cross is offensive too, should we not preach the gospel because most will hate it? Perhaps 1Way would be a better person to debate this subject with. You started off terrible.

We are told miracles testify of the Lord Jesus and His salvation...

This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Here we are told God uses miracles for His purposes, yet you desire to do away with them. Bizarre...

The apostle John penned these words..

Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name.

It was because of people seeing the miracles that people "believed in His name."

Miracles glorify God, Clete. They do not dishonor Him. So, why in the world would you teach that miracles have disappeared when we are told in Scripture that miracles bring honor & glory to God? Flawed theology you have there, Clete.


If this is not the case for those who witnessed your exorcism then I take that as direct evidence that it was not real (although I do not doubt that you believe it to have been quite real. In other words, Iím not calling you a liar). People doubted Jesus raising from the dead. People doubt the inerrancy of Scripture. People, like yourself, like to doubt the things of God. This is not unusual. Yet, in Holy Scripture we are told...

...that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. Clete, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.

Clete, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this????

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

If Jesusí miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldnít they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Canít we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?


I never said that my belief is based on physical evidence nor did I deny the absolute truth of the scripture. Ah!! Good. No need to talk about experiences. Let's start here from the truth of God's Word...

Paul speaking to the church under the New Covenant asked..You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort? Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

Paul understood the reality of miracles in the early church. He acknowledged it. Miracles are for the church as seen in 1 Corinthians 12 where he teaches that the church would be given the gift of miracles...

Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

So the question remains: If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.


I am merely coming at this topic from a direction that can more easily avoid the emotional pitfalls of attempting to hash out the differing doctrinal interpretations of Scripture.

Interpretation? Huh? There is only one and the clarity of it is what you're sadly missing.


My entire point is that I have a curtain understanding of scripture on this issue (I agree with Bob Enyart) See this is where the problem is rooted in. You have understood this subject through the lens of Enyart's teachings, where I have understood this teaching on miracles through the simple reading of God's Word. This is what I would recommend you doing. Put away the Ploy book and get into God's Word with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.


The problem is that both of our interpretations of Scripture predict that certain things either will or will not happen and so an excellent test for who's Biblical interpretation is correct is to see who's predictions turn out to be right.

Predictions? God's Word has spoken clearly and you are blinded to it. He has given His Church spiritual gifts that include the gift of miracles to serve humanity.


You say creative physical miracles should be evident in the church today. If there is no evidence then you are wrong and so is your Biblical interpretations. There is evidence from Scripture. Your missing the obvious. If the Scripture states it then we believe it. We don't question God based on physical evidence or the lack thereof, Clete. For example: God's Word teaches God is triune in nature. Yet what physical evidence is there that proves God is triune besides Scriptural truth?


I say that there should not be evident and if evidence is produced then I am wrong and so are my interpretations.
So far you have shown exactly zero even remotely verifiable evidence. Evidence is found in Scripture not in experience.

Under the New Covenant, the superior covenant, we are taught numerous times of the reality of spiritual gifts and miracles. In fact...

At least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.


If you have in fact read and understood "The Plot" then you have already been shown where you are wrong I don't dervive truth in the Plot book. I dervive truth from the Holy Scripture. Enyart, in regards to this issue, is way off base as evident in the clear teachings of God's Word.


This quote gives no names of those who experienced these miracles or even of those who witnessed them. Imagine that! This film is being looked upon by many enemies and no one has proven that what Mel Gibson is claiming is in fact a lie. Quite the opposite many news organizations and people who were present at the set testified to these miracles.


Someone got struck by lightning on one of Mel Gibson's movie sets and it never even made on the evening news! Huh? Many news outlets have reported the various miracles that have occured on the set.


Miracles do away with a need for faith and therefore make it more difficult to come to God. No it doesn't. Where did you get this from? Enyart materials? God's Word says:

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.


The more miracles that happen the more evil the people who witness them become (generally speaking).

Those who had been scattered preached the word wherever they went. Philip went down to a city in Samaria and proclaimed the Christ there. When the crowds heard Philip and saw the miraculous signs he did, they all paid close attention to what he said. With shrieks, evil spirits came out of many, and many paralytics and cripples were healed. So there was great joy in that city.

I don't know of one person who personally experienced a miracle of deliverance or healing who turned evil. If anything they were thankful and joyful to God.


Ever ask the question, "Why did Jesus respond "My Grace is sufficient for you." when Paul asked to be healed?
If this response was proper for Paul, why isn't it proper for the rest of the Body of Christ? Sometimes God chooses not to heal. So? But often times God heals and your point?

Resting in the testimony of Jesus Christ and God's Word--our only objective truth standard--Freak

Freak
February 4th, 2004, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by godrulz

Why assume that miracles were a dime a dozen in biblical times? It might seem like that since we are getting a condensed history (Mark was fast paced and seems like miracles were common place, when they probably were not). The volume of miracles is not an issue. It is wrong to assume that the tapering of miracles was a dispensational necessity, rather than the Church's zeal and truth being dulled by an unbelieving world or Catholicism, for example. This does not account for the modern revivals and outpouring of the Spirit that is well documented. Exactly.


What is the supposedly good reason for God to stop being God as revealed in Christ? What is the Scriptural or logical argument necessitating an anti-supernaturalistic world view in favor of a functionally atheistic naturalistic worldview? i.e. why would the supernatural God birth His church in power with spiritual giftings, only to quickly withdraw them. There is another possiblity. It was not God's intent or fault that truth and the Spirit's ministry became diluted or despised. :chuckle:

1Way
February 4th, 2004, 01:52 PM
Clete - About their claims of abundant miracles, I agree, yet that is their strongest point, they allow for their dubious claims to be believed true, while we doubt or disbelieve the same claims. That is yet another reason we should have a solid understanding of what constitutes a biblical miracle as opposed to what does not. Great point about Christ's grace being sufficient when Paul's request for healing was denied. Is there ANY other place in the bible that God answered back his top man in such a way? I mean one guy got 10 years added to his life, two guys never saw death, Christ was healing death for goodness sakes, but all of a sudden Paul wants to be able to see well again and the answer is no. Someone else has stomach ills, and the answer is, drink some wine for your problems, not, ask God for a miraculous healing. And such things do not represent a shift in norms. Bahh, godrulz is being closed minded to the ways of God because of religious sounding manmade doctrines. I hope God's grace and God's word will help him see the way though it all!

And if we have a choice, morally speaking that is, shouldn't we rather NOT seek after miracles? I thought that Jesus made that issue one of unbelief and wickedness, to expect good faith to be generated from miracles. :think:

Freak
February 4th, 2004, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by 1Way

Clete - About their claims of abundant miracles, I agree, yet that is their strongest point, This is where your madness steps in. Employ your mind and stop reacting out of emotion, 1Way. Our strongest point for the belief in miracles is Holy Scripture not a Enyart video or booklet.


And if we have a choice, morally speaking that is, shouldn't we rather NOT seek after miracles? Again reacting out of emotion instead of Biblical reasoning...

This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Miracles testify of the Lord Jesus and His salvation. We don't seek miracles, we seek Jesus who is our miracle of healing, deliverance, salvation...


I thought that Jesus made that issue one of unbelief and wickedness, to expect good faith to be generated from miracles. Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name.

godrulz
February 4th, 2004, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by 1Way

godrulz - You are honoring a tradition that is not cogent with scripture, you said
What is this about a dime a dozen? The bible does not remotely reflect such an idea, and neither do we! What exactly are you thinking about when you say that?

"The church's zeal and truth being dulled by an unbelieving world", ,,, They hated and eventually KILLED Christ, do you think THAT was an unbelieving worldly event, yet that did not dissuade God from donig miracles back then, although they did swain soon after, but not primarily because of the world's unbelief dulling the church's zeal. That is such an unbiblical remark, but it is highly reflective of a manmade tradition. The bible does not indicate that miracles are in any way dependent upon the faith or lack there of in the world, in fact, most of the OT refutes your notion in the highest degree, because the unbelieving nations were usually the ones that God miraculously wiped out, God's miracles even plagued Israel like 40 years of eating manna hot cakes, and manna juicies and manna side dishes and manna after manna after more manna, and other such notables, like opening up the earth and swallowing them up. Often, unbelief was the precurser to a biblical miracle, so your answer is a high consentration of manmade error, and wishful thinking.

I hope you are getting a clue here, if you want to have a good and godly faith, it needs to conform to God and His word, not man and his word.

I said Water was turned into wine, Jesus walked on water, the dead was raised, unformed stub limbs grew out into being full formed hands, the blind could see, the death could hear, the lame could walk, Jesus went rocketed out of sight without rockets, Jesus rose from the dead, lepers were healed, I mean come on already, these sorts of things have not occurred since they were recorded in bible times. And to have the 12 and Paul and their converts sick and slaughtered after the many miracles earlier in their lives, is a tremendous shift in norms.

Haste makes waste. Thank you for reminding me I am not always as clear as I could be. "Dime a dozen" is a saying that probably means they are not worth much. This was not my intent (oops). I meant that miracles were not occurring every minute of every day of the ministry of Jesus and the disciples (we agree). Likewise, we do not need to say that miracles must be frequent and the norm to establish that they happen in the post-apostolic era. Nor do they have to be the same caliber as the incarnate Deity's were. His miracles were often signs to illustrate a truth (see John). The miracles today can be as dramatic as the one's in Christ's ministry (because you are not personally aware of them does not mean they do not happen...I gave one example...Nita Edwards...the evidence is there, but you do not have it in front of you, so you assume it is a lie...watch the slander...I am satisfied it is true).

What I meant by the church becoming dull through the centuries is not a reflection on God's ability. Rather, it is a documented decline due to many factors that necessistated things like Councils to combat heresy, Reformation to counter Catholic politics, revivals to breath new life, printing press to get the Word to the common people, etc. Constantine and his crusades were problematic (outward vs genuine conversions). It is no wonder the church was not doing the works of Christ or open to the Spirit if it was primarily pagan and nominal. The development of clergy-laity separation, heresies like Arianism, the rise of the Catholic church, etc. all contributed to the church being less than it was meant to be. The Reformation restored the right focus. The Pentecostal revivals at the turn of last century (Azusa Street, etc.) and the charismatic movement in the 1960s and the Jesus People revival in the 1970s restored a needed emphasis on the person and work of the Spirit. Edwards, Wesley, Finney, etc. emphasized evangelism and others birthed the modern missionary movement. It is indisputable that the Church drifted from its solid start (and I would argue this as a possible explanation for the decreased frequency of miracles) and God raised up men and movements in the last 2000 years to reemphasize great truths.

I respect all denominations and traditions. I happen to be part of the Pentecostal tradition because of my understanding of Scripture and personal experience (largest segment of the Body of Christ...what does that tell you...no....the majority of genuine Christians are not deceived by the devil). There are liberal churches in the land that do not preach the gospel nor see the work of the Spirit. This is not an argument against the veracity and validity of the Gospel or the work of the Spirit (I also believe that the Gospel and signs and wonders are related...He still confirms His Word with signs following. He still loves His children and the lost and can and does heal at times).

You refer to OT judgments. The book of Revelation has similar judgments. I am not sure the relevance to the miracle issue? Paul dying is not a shift in norms. It is the experience of the miracle-working Master and His followers. You are assuming a shift and only one possible explanation. I contend that God intended to continue the work of Christ through the Church by the Spirit as well as see the Kingdom advance faster and further than it did (an Open Theist should be able to accept this possibility). The explanation why more are not converted or more miracles are not happening is not related to the plan or will of God, as much as the opposition of the enemy and the rationalistic influence from the world. It is no coincidence that Eastern religious converts (or African) continue to experience the supernatural more than North Americans. There world view resonates with the spiritual realm, whereas ours does not (this does not mean that God does not do His thing despite our unbelief and academic postulates).

godrulz
February 4th, 2004, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Freak


Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name.

Exact reference so our friends can look it up in context. Obviously, miracles were done by Christ to facilitate faith, not to deceive or harden hearts (that happens because of man's stupidity, not God's flaw).

Clete
February 4th, 2004, 04:44 PM
Freak,

I am through!

You repeatedly ignore the entire point of my argument and I therefore conclude that you are unable to produce anything that will permit the verification of a single physical miracle, which your position clearly indicates should be present in abundance. What the crap would anyone need with a physical miracle where there is no evidence that it ever happened?
I will not go round and round in circles while you obfuscate and hide from the fact that without such evidence your Biblical position, no matter how well argued, is a house of cards on a foundation of a sand.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

godrulz
February 4th, 2004, 05:23 PM
There is no need to assume miracles should be in abundance. There are seasons of the Spirit. We could not handle a divine invasion (revival) 24/7. We would get no sleep. Regardless, hundreds of millions of charismatic Christians know the person and work of the Spirit. You know Christ, but limit the Spirit's work in your midst. I want the fulness of the Gospel, not just justification. He brings wholeness to the whole man. Sorry we were not able to be more helpful. If you seek the Father, He will reveal Jesus, who will point you to the Spirit's work. If you ask for the Spirit, He promised you would not be given a stone.

The Spirit is not just for a sideshow. Acts 1:8; 2:4 Who would not want the release of the Spirit that we may have power/dunamis to be a more effective witness. The package may include speaking in tongues. I hope this does not ruffle your theology too much.

Freak
February 4th, 2004, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Freak,

I am through! I knew the Biblical standards and truths would stand in the midst of your weak assaults on God's Word. Truth stands and your position has been defeated. No big surprise.


You repeatedly ignore the entire point of my argument and I therefore conclude that you are unable to produce anything that will permit the verification of a single physical miracle, which your position clearly indicates should be present in abundance. As Godrulz noted there are hundreds of millions of charismatic believers who have experienced the miracles of God. All of them have embrace the essentials of the historic Christian faith and have experienced the miracle life of healing, deliverance, etc...

Then there are millions of believers like myself who are not charismatic (I attend an Anglican fellowship) who have experienced miracles firsthand. My wife has been healed, my sister has been healed, my sister-in-law has been delivered from demons. These were genuine cases of miracles. Furthermore, I have witnessed hundreds of miracles, primarily the casting out of demons in the name of Jesus. But I do not believe the reality miracles because of experience but because God's Word has spoken clearly on the subject.



What the crap would anyone need with a physical miracle where there is no evidence that it ever happened? There is ample evidence but like those who killed Jesus they dismissed His miracle working power. Even if the dead were to rise you would deny.


I will not go round and round in circles while you obfuscate and hide from the fact that without such evidence your Biblical position, no matter how well argued, is a house of cards on a foundation of a sand.

From the very beginning you have refused to deal with the Biblical foundations for our belief miracles are for today...again no big surprise.

...in Holy Scripture we are told...

...that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. Clete, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.

Clete, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this????

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

If Jesusí miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldnít they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Canít we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without


Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete Too much resting with no action...

Under the New Covenant, the superior covenant, we are taught numerous times of the reality of spiritual gifts and miracles. In fact...

At least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

drbrumley
February 4th, 2004, 06:16 PM
Freak says,


We are told miracles testify of the Lord Jesus and His salvation...

Oh really? This is all you have to go on Freak? Do you know why miracles were given to the apostles in the first place Freak? Don't answer cause I already know your answer. But that's the question you need to answer for yourself. You glean over scripture. But the answer is right in front of your nose. You have no idea what was really happening in those days. If you think you know, shed some light for us. You look at God's word in two covenants. That's it as far as I can tell when reading your posts. Maybe DeeDeeWarren can help you with this. She was close but still let her Preterism get in the way. Just like you. Your close, but not close enough. But you rather hang in there with your seminary taught thoughts and that has infected your thinking. You hang on cause in your words, the MAJORITY now and the Early Christian Fathers support you. The Holy Scriptures does not support you.
:nono:

Q1 to Freak-why were miracles given to the apostles in the first place?

GodRulz says along with Freak,


Obviously, miracles were done by Christ to facilitate faith, not to deceive or harden hearts

Q1 to Godrulz-why were miracles given to the apostles in the first place?

Please answer both of you. I would greatly appreciate it.

In Christ,
DRBrumley

Freak
February 4th, 2004, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by drbrumley

Do you know why miracles were given to the apostles in the first place Freak?

There are many reasons. But one reason to is to glorify God. God is not dishonored through His miracles, now is He? Secondly, miracles help people as people are freed from demons, healed of diseases, etc...These are acts of compassion. These are acts that God desires His Church to be involved in as He has given His Body the 'gift of miracles' to serve humanity.


You have no idea what was really happening in those days. If you think you know, shed some light for us.

Not sure what you're talking about. But we know that that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42).


You look at God's word in two covenants. That's it as far as I can tell when reading your posts.

But the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises.
For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

The Scriptures speak of two covenants that is why I believe in 2 covenants.


But you rather hang in there with your seminary taught thoughts and that has infected your thinking. I never attended seminary.


You hang on cause in your words, the MAJORITY now and the Early Christian Fathers support you. I find truth in Scripture...At least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.


Q1 to Freak-why were miracles given to the apostles in the first place?

...that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. Clete, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.

1Way
February 4th, 2004, 11:19 PM
Clete - Your doing a great job! Don't let Freak bother you too much, he is pretty deceptive, like this thread for example, he hasn't even shown anything except a very basic understand of what Bob teaches. You can not refute what you do not understand.

And Freak is one of this forum's most notorious perverts, his does great violence to the truth of the matter, mostly by ripping the words and ideas out of context, and he uses emotional hooks and ploys instead of concrete arguments. He and Jerry S. are much the same way,

they confuse

A claim with an argument
A refutation with a disagreement of opinion

So what do you expect from someone like that? Godrulz is far more honest, but he positions manmade church history so high that Godís word becomes obscured to say the least.

Also about Freak, he is such a hot head. When you do exchanges with him, he is showing the world just how much of a violent person he is, you argue ABC to Freak and Freak says, you know what is wrong with ABC, and that's the last he deals with your point, he just quotes part of your point and then freeforms into some other subjective tangent whatever. So instead of focusing on him so much, I tend to think of those who might be overlooking our discussions, that way the efforts seem more worth while.

:think:
For Freak to overturn his views on miracles would basically invalidate his life and livelihood (religious exorcist if I'm informed correctly), so the stakes are higher for him, and naturally inhibit him from being very objective. Imagine how bad he looks with him being the so called profession in the field, yet he is this incapable. Keep up the good work! :thumb:

godrulz
February 4th, 2004, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by drbrumley


Q1 to Freak-why were miracles given to the apostles in the first place?

GodRulz says along with Freak,



Q1 to Godrulz-why were miracles given to the apostles in the first place?

Please answer both of you. I would greatly appreciate it.

In Christ,
DRBrumley[/i][/b]

I agree with Freak that there is more than one reason miracles were given. It is a logical fallacy to reduce a multi-faceted topic to a simplistic explanation. All relevant verses must be looked at in context. The whole picture does not come from one passage. Minimally, the ministry of Jesus comes to establish the rule (kingdom) of God and oppose the kingdom of darkness. Jesus came to die, but also to set men free from sin and Satan. He opposed evil and its consequences. We would probably agree with whatever your reason for miracles was, but would build upon it to do justice to the whole picture. I said miracles can facilitate faith or validate the messenger, but that is not the primary or only reason.

I did not go to seminary either. I went to a Bible college (that would not support nor teach the Open View I now believe in). Derby College (not accredited according to their website) and Bob Hill being self-educated does not prove spiritual superiority. If anything, it could increase the possibility of error as one becomes an island outside the checks and balances of godly, trained theologians through the centuries. Everyone with a novel idea seems to think everyone else is wrong and they somehow have it right (tiny minority). There should not be a premium on ignorance nor arrogance. Let us search the Scriptures with humilty, but not in isolation.

Are you a doctor DR? I keep assuming you are. Why were miracles given to the apostles? (your answer would also be appreciated) I think they were the prototype for believers of all generations. The church was to continue the incarnational ministry of Christ through the generations. They factor in the spiritual warfare from Genesis to Revelation. They are from the providential hand of God for His glory and our good. The list could go on...try brainstorming....there is more than one principle/reason God expresses Himself with supernatural interventions. The main motivation is truth and LOVE.

1Way
February 5th, 2004, 01:46 AM
Godrulz Ė (1 of 2)
You still maintain that miracles are less frequent or less believed today and apparently always, because of unbelief and zeal problems within the church. But when you at least mentioned my argument from scripture about your position, you said
(1) You refer to OT judgments. The book of Revelation has similar judgments. I am not sure the relevance to the miracle issue? (2) Paul dying is not a shift in norms. It is the experience of the miracle-working Master and His followers. (3) You are assuming a shift and only one possible explanation. (4) I contend that God intended to continue the work of Christ through the Church by the Spirit as well as see the Kingdom advance faster and further than it did (an Open Theist should be able to accept this possibility). (5) The explanation why more are not converted or more miracles are not happening is not related to the plan or will of God, as much as the opposition of the enemy and the rationalistic influence from the world.
(1) I understood and still accurately understand your argument, that the reason that we are not seeing/experiencing more miracles is not because of something in God (dispensational change from law to grace, night to day) but because the church has floundered in error and unbelief, that is why miracles arenít as common, the problem is with man, not that God does not will not to use miracles.

So I responded against that manmade concept with the fact of the bible. Just consider the OT for an instant and you know unequivocally that God is in no way hampered by the church loosing itís zeal as a biblically grounded reason for God ceasing or decreasing miracles! Israel mostly hated God, yet they are the nation of the miraculous. The other nations also hated God, yet Godís miracles happened without ANY biblical evidence of your claim at all. God didnít just judge the nations and condemn them, as a standard means of judgment, He provided miracles and signs in about every single story in the OT. The NT represents about what, half a lifetime, a span of several decades or more, but the OT represents about 4 thousand years of manís DOCUMENTED history, and Godís word is that manís lack of belief if anything made God all the more willing to do miracles, so you argument if anything is the exact opposite of the truth of the matter, ,,, that is, if you dare to let Godís word rule in your belief system instead of manís.

But, notably, you did not even understand my point, although I do not think you are that ignorant generally speaking, I hope this helps you understand what I am saying.

(2) I did not say Paul dying represents a shift in norms, that is egregious and wrong and you know it. I made a clear differentiation, and you completely ignored it. Here it is again, I do not see any reason for you to not understand what I am saying.

Water was turned into wine, Jesus walked on water, the dead was raised, unformed stub limbs grew out into being full formed hands, the blind could see, the death could hear, the lame could walk, Jesus went rocketed out of sight without rockets, Jesus rose from the dead, lepers were healed, I mean come on already, ... ... And to have the 12 and Paul and their converts sick and slaughtered after the many miracles earlier in their lives, is a tremendous shift in norms.
I am not well studied, except in my study of Godís word, but even there I have a great deal of room to grow, Iíve never went to bible collage nor seminar nor was raised in a household with great interest in doing much bible study. So my expertise or skills as a bible student were largely self directed learning. I just enjoy studying Godís word. So I am not well studied in other Christian disciplines, like church history and such, I do not know specifically how Paul or the 12 died, except for a vague understanding that for the most part, they died horribly, and their followers as well, and even before they died, there were cases of sickness and disease, like Paulís bad eyesight problems, it was so bad that he practically couldnít even write right anymore, he had to right really large letters, and such that finally he had to have his writings written for him. Now that is a very serious physical problem for the all star apostle that he was (what, he ended up writing about 2/3 of the NT or so, and he is the major basis for most doctrinal issues), yet Paul, our one single apostle was told by God ďno healing for you, My grace is sufficientĒ. Like Clete has been saying to you, that is a case of God dramatically changing the norm, and there are a few other examples of that sort of thing too, one of Paulís helpers was told by Paul to drink a little wine for your infirmities, when in the past the norm would have been to also seek a miraculous healing from God, also the miracle accounts became conspicuously less and less recorded as time went on.

(3) That is a half truth, I am assuming a shift, but not prior to going to the scriptures to see it, I did not. After going to Godís word FIRST, the shift is there, even you agreed to the declining occurrences, which I would add are dramatic. I can say the same about you, you assume the shift is not significant or indicative of a change in Godís program, and you see that as the only possible explanation. Well, I could say that, but I am not that ignorant or disrespectful, I believe that you can and do consider other possibilities, and if you donít, you should, there is nothing to replace an objectively established faith, instead of a subjective one.

(4) Me too, that is a non-argument, and your OV comment seems over the top, no need to invoke the OV to understand Godís dissatisfaction in the church and the world, and pick any age or time period, God is always wanting more for us than we readily accept.

(5) I realize that you were confused, but restating your claim is no substitute for being right and demonstrating the reasons why you think you are right. That is Freakís and Jerryís bit, they are the oneís who confuse

an argument with a claim

a refutation with a disagreement

You are the one who constantly confuses

manmade tradition as the authority for matters of faith and living.
cont. next post...

1Way
February 5th, 2004, 01:48 AM
Godrulz Ė (2 of 2)

You said
I respect all denominations and traditions. I happen to be part of the Pentecostal tradition because of my understanding of Scripture and personal experience ( (6) largest segment of the Body of Christ...what does that tell you...no....the majority of genuine Christians are not deceived by the devil). There are liberal churches in the land that do not preach the gospel nor see the work of the Spirit . This is not an argument against the veracity and validity of the Gospel or the work of the Spirit (I also believe that the Gospel and signs and wonders are related... (7) He still confirms His Word with signs following. He still loves His children and the lost and can and does heal at times).
(6) What are you saying here, about the largest segment of the Body of Christ? What segment? Surely you are not saying that the Pentacostal tradition is what you had in mind? Secondly, ďLargest segmentĒ, ďthe majorityĒ, You seem to be possibly arguing against my argument/observation that ďChristianityĒ (represented by man that is) is the hotbed of all false Christian doctrine. If that is not what you are doing, then please explain. Say, that makes me wonder, so, do you have certain relational entanglements in your life that might alter your objectivity like Freak and his exorcism bit? i.e. Your father is an elder in your church and your family are longtime Pentecostals or you are currently schooling at the Pentecostal cemetery (opps mortuary, opps ,,, :doh: seminary) or perhaps you are engaged to the pastorís daughter (of a Pentacostal church), and you ďneedĒ to be a good role model Pentacostal? Just curious.

Are you connecting Godís love and care with His occasional miraculous healings? That is a pretty bad connection. Hospitals and old folks homes (etc) are chuck full of sick and dying people who are not getting a miracle healing. Perhaps you think that God heals the few and not the many, not all of them because of??? What, does God play favorites or God loves some more than others?

What word of God told you that God still is in the business of validating His word? Where do you find that idea, from your Pentecostal writings, or from some non-demonic oral tradition, or from Godís word, or?

(7) If you are saying that the canon is open, then is there a definitive collection of this ongoing extra-biblical word of God? If itís the same word, only found in the holy scriptures, then why would God continue to be confirming His word, didnít He do a good enough job the first time? Also, do you have ANY biblical support reasoning to offer for this dubious view?

freelight
February 5th, 2004, 02:52 AM
"And when He had called his twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sicknesses and all kinds of diseases." - {Matt 10:1; Mark 3:14,15; Luke 9:1,2 }


Nowhere in the NT does Jesus ever imply that the power and authority to heal the sick (which includes the ministry of deliverance)....was only for the first 12 disciples......as we see the 70 and other believers having this spiritual authority and power - the vestments that Christ confers upon his faithful ones is the knowledge, wisdom and authority to act in his name. These disciples had this investment and were thus deputized even before the outpouring of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost! Now that we as sons of God have been given the Spirit and anointed thereby.....how much more power and authority do we now have to minister in the grace and power of the Lord Jesus?

It is only an impotent and faithless generation that seeks for a sign before they can believe God for anything. Faith comes first. Signs, wonders and miracles follow faith! Jesus said signs would follow them who believe.....and that we would do greater works....as we walk in the power of the faith of God in us. The vestments of God are granted to his ministers and those He anoints with His Spirit and power. It is thru His church that He manifests His power of salvation - we are His hands, His body, His presence in the earth...for He dwells in us - we are His tabernacles. It is time for the faithlessness of His people to be discarded and the faith of the Lion of Judah to arise in the hearts of His beloved ones....that they like David...would have a heart after Gods own.....and walk in the Light of His Son.

In the preaching of the gospel of the Kingdom...Jesus anoints us for service - to prophesy.....and to administer healing and deliverance to the sick and captive. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty - the true servants of God walk in His power....and minister His grace with power - God works mightily thru them. These ones walk in the dynamo of God and as beacons of Light....for their God is Light....and they are His sons. The Lord Jesus teaches and leads his disciples in the school of faith.....and empowers them for service.

Anyone who has experienced the power of God and his divine presence along with the NT witness (the Word and the Spirit)....cannot so easily or vainly deny that Gods Spirit-power and anointing has somehow been withdrawn from the Church triumphant. It is folly and grave blindness. All the glory, power and presence of God is in His Son! (His body). We are His sons! We have been given his faith, his Spirit, his name, his glory! In Him dwells the FULLNESS! He is our HEAD, we are His BODY - we are ONE. He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Even I having a varied background and versatility have some sense of faith and the power of the Spirit....as I have touched and tasted the glory of the Spirit and His anointing. Personal experience with God lives on in ones soul as a lasting memorial...and can never be denied by that soul. What I dont understand is why there is faithlessness manifested by those who call themselves christians....as Jesus taught much about faith and its power. Faith is naturally a co-existent factor working within the dynamic of consciousness relative to divine ministrations. Jesus showed that faith not only saved souls...but also brought wholeness and healing to the spirit, soul and body of individuals. Even though it appears because of such disbelief around us (and within the 'church') that nothing miraculous is going on and God is not in the midst.........then such can only be indicative of faithlessness. Visit vibrant and Spirit-filled communities within the Body of Christ...and you will see that some parts of the Body are experiencing a greater flow of Life....for they are abiding in the Vine...and naturally(and supernaturally) bear its fruit.

The reality of faith and the power of God as a living dynamic in the body of His Anointed One......is primary......and it is this living spirit ministry and economy in God that is central to christian community.
God is Spirit, God is Life, God is Light. His Christ is the extension of His own Being.....and we as His body are further extensions of the ONE LIFE.....the Only Power Being. It is time for the church to arise and claim her sonship.



paul

Freak
February 5th, 2004, 07:14 AM
Originally posted by 1Way

Clete - Your doing a great job! Yes, he's doing a good job ignoring the Scriptural evidence for miracles being for today..

I'll give him another opoortunity to answer this concerns of mine..

We are told in Scripture that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. Clete, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles. Why would God give us these gifts if it didn't want miracles to occur in our day?

Clete, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this????

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

If Jesusí miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldnít they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Canít we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?


For Freak to overturn his views on miracles would basically invalidate his life and livelihood (religious exorcist if I'm informed correctly), Incorrect. A lie. I expect a public retraction immediately. I do not live off ("livelihood" as you put it) exorcisms. By stating such a lie proves to all your personal hatred towards me (to lie and slander me publically) and to the ministry that Jesus did--exorcising those with demons.


so the stakes are higher for him, and naturally inhibit him from being very objective. My objective truth comes from God's Word.

Evidence is found in Scripture not in experience.

Under the New Covenant, the superior covenant, we are taught numerous times of the reality of spiritual gifts and miracles. In fact...

At least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.



Imagine how bad he looks with him being the so called profession in the field, yet he is this incapable. Incapable of doing what? Your grammar is horrific. :down:

Freak
February 5th, 2004, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by 1Way

For Freak to overturn his views on miracles would basically invalidate his life and livelihood (religious exorcist if I'm informed correctly), so the stakes are higher for him, and naturally inhibit him from being very objective. Incorrect. A lie. I expect a public retraction immediately. I do not live off ("livelihood" as you put it) exorcisms. By stating such a lie proves to all your personal hatred towards me (to lie and slander me publically) and to the ministry that Jesus did--exorcising those with demons.

1Way, will you retract your lie.

1. You have publically slandered me while acknowledging "if I'm informed correctly." Why don't you do the Godly thing and ask me personally before going on record as stating something that is untrue. :nono:

2. It is a lie to suggest that the alteration of my view on miracles would invalidate my life--a. my life's validation is found in Jesus Christ and His Word not in miracles, b. my belief in miracles is rooted in Scriptural truth and not in denial (your present condition).

Clete
February 5th, 2004, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by 1Way

Clete - Your doing a great job! Don't let Freak bother you too much, he is pretty deceptive, like this thread for example, he hasn't even shown anything except a very basic understand of what Bob teaches. You can not refute what you do not understand.

And Freak is one of this forum's most notorious perverts, his does great violence to the truth of the matter, mostly by ripping the words and ideas out of context, and he uses emotional hooks and ploys instead of concrete arguments. He and Jerry S. are much the same way,

they confuse

A claim with an argument
A refutation with a disagreement of opinion

So what do you expect from someone like that? Godrulz is far more honest, but he positions manmade church history so high that Godís word becomes obscured to say the least.

Also about Freak, he is such a hot head. When you do exchanges with him, he is showing the world just how much of a violent person he is, you argue ABC to Freak and Freak says, you know what is wrong with ABC, and that's the last he deals with your point, he just quotes part of your point and then freeforms into some other subjective tangent whatever. So instead of focusing on him so much, I tend to think of those who might be overlooking our discussions, that way the efforts seem more worth while.

:think:
For Freak to overturn his views on miracles would basically invalidate his life and livelihood (religious exorcist if I'm informed correctly), so the stakes are higher for him, and naturally inhibit him from being very objective. Imagine how bad he looks with him being the so called profession in the field, yet he is this incapable. Keep up the good work! :thumb:
Thanks for the encouraging words 1way. I agree that there are probably those that are reading but not engaged in this debate and I am hopeful that my argument has been better received by those who are less entrenched in this doctrine of miracles. I would be more than willing to continue for their sake if it didn't mean circling the same barn six hundred and sixty six times! And besides that, I think my point has been made as forcefully as can be done. Further, the fact that Freak insists that physical evidence exists for physical miracles but has failed to produce any is sufficient to communicate the weakness of his position. No doubt he will continue to repeat himself with his Biblical argument and thatís fine. But what I think he fails to realize is that there was a time that the church had a Biblical argument for believing the Earth was both flat and the center of the universe and that it was physical evidence that proved their Biblical argument wrong.
At any rate, that will be my last word on the subject for a while. I do not promise not to return. ;)

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

Freak
February 5th, 2004, 08:01 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Further, the fact that Freak insists that physical evidence exists for physical miracles but has failed to produce any is sufficient to communicate the weakness of his position. How many times do we have to tell you, Clete, that our position for miracles today is rooted in Scripture-objective truth. Not experience and yet you still desire to hear some miracle story. I told you my sister, sister-in-law, and my wife have experienced miracles. I have shared with you the miracles that are occuring on the set of the Passion. Furthermore...millions of believers around the world have reported miracles (like the New York Times or the liberal media will be sympathetic to these miracles). But these miracle stories are experiences. This is good. However, our belief in miracles stem from what the Bible teaches on the subject. The Bible clearly teaches that God gives His church gifts, gifts that include the working of miracles. If He didn't desire miracles to occur He wouldn't give His Body the gift of miracles.


No doubt he will continue to repeat himself with his Biblical argument and thatís fine. I'm glad I get your approval to use God's Word as my objective standard. You're asking for stories and I'm calling you back to the Biblical standard.


But what I think he fails to realize is that there was a time that the church had a Biblical argument for believing the Earth was both flat and the center of the universe and that it was physical evidence that proved their Biblical argument wrong.

There was no Biblical argument for the flatness of the earth. Besides, we don't need physical evidence to validate the Bible, Clete. Imagine that. Jesus, who is God, stated, "Thy Word is truth." I believe Jesus and thereby don't need physical evidence. Jesus is the truth and speaks the truth--He says it, I believe it.

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

godrulz
February 5th, 2004, 10:33 AM
Freak: Biblical reference for last quote would help our friends read the context and feel its impact.

Have you heard of 'Pigs in the Parlor?' Who wrote that book? I disagree that there is a demon behind every rock. I hope you have a balanced deliverance ministry.

1Way: I also am an amateur theologian at best. I do have a B.Th. that hopefully helps me think critically and helps me to use tools or know where to look. I also am primarily self-taught since I do not accept all the party line of my denomination (e.g. Open Theism).

I did shift the onus to the Church for the decrease in miracles. To balance this, the other factor is the sovereignty of God. In His wisdom, He does what He wants (OT miracles, despite unbelief) when He wants. There are seasons of the outpouring of the Spirit or judgment. We learn to live on the mountain top and the valley. This is your personal experience and is seen even in the life of Jesus. Perhaps this is to build faith and character and to keep our focus on God and not His power (He wants to be loved for who He is and not just for what He does).

Charles Finney taught principles of revival. Calvinists opposed him and sat around waiting for God to do something in His sovereignty (nothing happened ironically). Finney saw great revival and spiritual awakening, because He understood the dynamic of God and man in relationship (as we Open Theists appreciate).

2 Chron. 7:14 "... IF (condition) my people who are called by my name, will humble THEMSELVES and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, THEN (consequence) will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and WILL heal their land."

Yes, God confirmed His Word initially as recorded in the closed canon (continued History of the church through the generations is not a canonical issue). This does not preclude God confirming His Word with signs following in each generation and in specific locales (like for the Buddhist nurses who now follow Jesus because Nita Edward's hospital room was invaded by the living God throwing her out of bed onto her feet instantly healed!). This issue should not be confused with the lame Baptistic, canonical argument. The God of Elijah is showing the modern Baals who is the true God (miracle instead of fire scenario).

Freelight is correct to observe that we are also disciples who have been commissioned to PREACH the Gospel, which assumes that we will also heal the sick and deliver the demonized (Satan did not retire, and humanity still has needs).

Your mystery is why would God stop being the supernatural God (you did not answer my recent sincere question explicitly...is it a canon issue, dispensation issue and why?).

The Pentecostal mystery is why do some get healed and not others? Why do we not see more miracles (we do see some, which undermines your premise completely)?

I believe it honors God to wrestle with the latter issue, and grieves God that those dealing with the first issue do not know Him in the same way the early church did (i.e. you put God in a dispensational box and limit His creative and loving power and goodness).

Clete
February 5th, 2004, 12:04 PM
Originally posted by Freak

How many times do we have to tell you, Clete, that our position for miracles today is rooted in Scripture-objective truth. Not experience and yet you still desire to hear some miracle story....

I'm glad I get your approval to use God's Word as my objective standard. You're asking for stories and I'm calling you back to the Biblical standard.




This is where you continually (and I believe intentionally) miss the point Freak.
I DO NOT want miracle stories! If I wanted stories all I would have to do is turn on TBN. Stories don't cut it at all. I want verifiable EVIDENCE that physical miracles are happening today.
I'll give you an example of the sort of physical evidence that I'm looking for.
The Bible teaches that Jesus rose from the dead. (A Miracle by any standard!)
The tomb He was laid in is PHYSICALLY empty!

Get it?

EVIDENCE! not stories!

My point stated yet another way is that the Bible does not fly in the face of reality! As you said, there is no good argument from scripture that the Earth is flat. In fact just the opposite the Bible calls the Earth a sphere! And low and behold, you can confirm this Biblical idea with physical evidence! In the same way, if miracles are happening today then we should be able to demonstrate that fact by the presentation of independently verifiable evidence.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

Knight
February 5th, 2004, 01:03 PM
Clete... :first: POTD (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=454823#post454823)

Clete
February 5th, 2004, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Clete... :first: POTD (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=454823#post454823)

Thanks Knight!

Sorry about the typos in my post! I've edited them out now, I hope I got em all! My public school edumacation is showing! ;)

Resting in Him,
Clete

freelight
February 5th, 2004, 01:56 PM
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good testimony."

-Heb 11:1


So far all I see from the Enyart supporters on this issue is a condition of faithlessness and unwillingness to believe God for enhancing natural laws (such as rates of healing) and transcending them supernaturally(such as more creative miracles) - you say you believe God 'could' do miracles in this day and age....BUT - there's the big 'but'(which is conditional faith)........since you dont see any or havent read any documented miracles...that somehow means God has closed shop and has retired. God is still very much alive....and living vibrantly among the faith-full. Faith is the substance. Are you afraid to believe God for miracles(of any degree) - why then do you pray or even have faith of any degree for anything??? Oh, just for salvation - well .....salvation includes wholeness for spirit, soul and body. Faith is all-inclusive.

Jesus taught, 'according to your faith...let it be so'.....and many were saved by 'faith' even before his crucifixion, resurrection. 'Your faith has saved you (made you whole)'. Now that we have the Spirit of God....how much more can the faith of God in us be released unto His glory? Here you have people in the gospels during Jesus lifetime(before his resurrection).....being healed by faith...and now in this day and age you have 'believers' who supposedly have Christ in them and the Holy Spirit....and these ones are essentially 'unbelievers'. A sad scenario.

My experience and knowledge of scripture tells me that I have permission and liberty to exercise great faith....as taught, lived and realized in Jesus. There are no limits to this faith...that I a human being can put on it - for its source/substance is of God. God cannot be limited but only by His own volition - however....this is the Age of grace and the Holy Spirit....and the laws of faith and the charismas of the Spirit have not been stripped from the faithful.....for God is YHWH Shammah/Immanuel.....He IS! And HE lives amidst the community of those who have faith in HIM - He is their Life and glory.
These dimensions can be realized thru a spiritual dynamic and understanding - one must have the witness of the Spirit to know such.

It is ok to demand proof that miracles (of any degree) are taking place today....but this doesnt pressupose the negation of the power of faith to bring such things about.....as faith is ever dynamic...and has the power to make whole; the power to save. This faith is of God....therefore the substantive miracle working power of God is within it!

When the Son of Man returns....will he really find faith in the earth?


paul

1Way
February 5th, 2004, 02:10 PM
Freak Ė (?) I thought you do exorcisms, as part of your ministry? I thought that doing exorcisms is part of your life that you affirm as being valid for today?


Is it true that you claim to be an exorcist as part of, or perhaps a large feature of your ministry?


Also, naturally I thought that your book (how many? Just one, or?) confirms your beliefs about the work of the Holy Spirit including miracles and such things as exorcism for example.


Is that true, that you wrote a book that conforms to your faith about miracles?


Lastly, I did mix your life and ministry with your livelihood, but I did so because of your book which I assume you do not give away, but rather hope to make a profit.


Is that true, that you do not give away your books, you try to sell them for a goal to actually make a profit?


Please clarify; just claiming that I am wrong does not establish nor resolve anything.

1Way
February 5th, 2004, 02:22 PM
Freelight - Open your eyes, various arguments and points raised have been offered to support our view during your involvement in this thread, it's not just a lack of evidence, but the comprehensive nature of the lack of evidence provided for the last 20 centuries is most convincing.

You have been exposed to several arguments besides this one, so don't pretend like we have not provided them, even if they have not been fully developed, they have been provided.

1Way
February 5th, 2004, 03:35 PM
Godrulz Ė You said
Yes, God confirmed His Word initially as recorded in the closed canon (continued History of the church through the generations is not a canonical issue). This does not preclude God confirming His Word with signs following in each generation and in specific locales (like for the Buddhist nurses who now follow Jesus because Nita Edward's hospital room was invaded by the living God throwing her out of bed onto her feet instantly healed!). This issue should not be confused with the lame Baptistic, canonical argument. The God of Elijah is showing the modern Baals who is the true God (miracle instead of fire scenario). Which was in response to my saying
What word of God told you that God still is in the business of validating His word? Where do you find that idea, from your Pentecostal writings, or from some non-demonic oral tradition, or from Godís word, or? You did not answer my question, you simply restated your claims. Where do you find the idea that God is still in the business of validating His word with the miraculous? Where do you get that idea from? Where? I want to know where, not what you believe, WHERE.

For example, pick any old miracle from way back, like the 10 plagues in Egypt, or the flood, or God marking Cain so that no one should punish him for murdering his brother. In what way would those validations of Godís authority be not already completed? Why would He need to continue to validate something that has already been fully validated? Is God slowly improving His validation skills, or? As to the example of the flood, and the sign He gave in the rainbow, God establishes that His word is valid, his signs are sufficient and there is no need for Him to do it over and over as though He did not do a good enough job the first time. Each rainbow makes the exact same validation of Godís word, there is no new or ongoing validation going on, just the same completed ones He finished correctly each time.

I am pointing out to you the obvious. You are not getting this article of your faith from Godís word, instead you are willingly bound to a manmade tradition.

You said
Freelight is correct to observe that we are also disciples who have been commissioned to PREACH the Gospel, which assumes that we will also heal the sick and deliver the demonized (Satan did not retire, and humanity still has needs). Speak for yourself. I say you are not preaching THE gospel, you are preaching a perversion of two gospels. Also, I am not under the so called great commission that you allude to, that of the circumcision, I am not that confused, I am commissioned by God through our one apostle
To reflect the teachings of God for this dispensation which largely include to make all men see what is the dispensation of mystery, Eph 3, and


2 Corinthians 5:18 Now all things [are] of God , who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christís behalf, be reconciled to God.

You said
Your mystery is why would God stop being the supernatural God (you did not answer my recent sincere question explicitly...is it a canon issue, dispensation issue and why?). Itís no mystery to me why God would change His mode of operation, not stop being supernatural. I donít understand why you do not stand corrected about your use of the word supernatural and miraculous. I have tried to correct you about that, but you seem determined to mix the two.

I donít remember you asking any such question, explicitly or otherwise. Please reference the question so that I may understand what you are talking about.

You said
I believe it honors God to wrestle with the latter issue, and grieves God that those dealing with the first issue do not know Him in the same way the early church did (i.e. you put God in a dispensational box and limit His creative and loving power and goodness). Nowhere does God teach that the faithful and righteous way of understanding God is the way God established prior to the dispensation of grace.

Where did you get that idea from?

And what about you boxing in Godís love and goodness with His doing the miraculous? God does not teach such a connection, in fact, LIKE I HAVE BEEN SAYING, God teaches that it is wickedness to promote miracles as being a good faith causing thing. I repeat

1) it is a wicked and perverse generation who seeks a sign
2) even if one is raised from the dead, they still will not believe


Jesus teaches against your view, and I give you at least this much credit, you have done nothing, although you would like to, you have done nothing to refute this teaching that the expectation or desire for miracles is wickedness and is said to be NOT an issue of fostering belief, rather, they will not believe. Also, faith in God is fundamentally 1) things hoped for and 2) things not see (experienced) therefore miracles are not an issue of faith, they eliminate exercising/fostering faith, all a miracle requires is consciousness.

If you never feel wicked or evil for promoting the expectation of signs and wonders and other such miracles, then now is a good time to start to reflect upon the hardness of your heart, IF you are unyielding to Godís word on this or any other matter.

What I think is great, is that this is a pretty riveting discussion. I look forward to more bible expositions, save Freaks obfuscation side show. And just think, after only 320 posts (isolated ridicule remark), the issue about what a miracle is, has not even been dealt with. Talk about an opportunity for growth and advancement.

Understanding BEFORE judgment. (Right??? godrulz)

drbrumley
February 5th, 2004, 03:48 PM
Now another Post of the Day

Way to go 1way!!!!

drbrumley
February 5th, 2004, 03:58 PM
That 1way post was more abrupt then usual. :thumb:

drbrumley
February 5th, 2004, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by 1Way




IWay,

Sorry for not seeing this post till today.


Sorry if I missed your responses, but I missed any responses to what I have been saying about one of your responses to my question (though sometimes my remarks about you were directed at godrulz or Freak, still I continue in hopes of hearing from you).

I have followed along with you and am in complete agreement. I didn't feel the need to add anything since you were doing quite a good job and didnt want to interupt the flow you had with Godrulz.


Did your present your explanation of what a miracle is, the way that you did, as briefly as you did, for a specific reason? And was it the one I suggested? (To see if Freak even understands what it means. To see if Freak even challenges that idea or not.) If not, why?

Oh Freak understands. He just won't allow himself to accept it even though it is basically the same definition he used, in my view. Maybe Freak will grace us if he disagrees with Bob's defintion as to why he disagrees. But I won't hold my breath.


And, do you agree with me that it is usually a good idea when debating "an" issue, to have a fairly mutual understanding about what the topic actually is. Some people think that just about anything is a miracle and others are far more biblically strict. So far, everyone on the opposing side (of Enyart) is largely ignorant of 1) the differences involved, and also 2) of the honorable method for seeking out the truth of the matter from God's word.

Here, Here!!!! It's plainly obvious that they have no idea where we are coming from as it relates to the subject at hand. Which is precisely the reason I asked why the apostles received the sign gifts in the first place. As demonstrated by their answers, they don't know the sign gifts ceased. Or such things as why water baptism ceased. This is the heart of the matter. Until they understand where we are in God's time via His word and what and what not applies to us, they will always think we are in the Pentecostal age. Until this particular issue is addressed and satisfactorily answered as to God's plan in this dispensation, people such as they will always think that everything that applied to Isreal when God offered them the Kingdom will always be the way it is today. Very sad in my estimation. But so it goes.

We must pray for wisdom in this matter for us as well as them.

In Christ,
DRBrumley

freelight
February 5th, 2004, 05:15 PM
Well,.........it appears that the dynamic of faith that Jesus taught has been replaced by man-made, intellectualized theologies that limit faith and the power of God to dispensations. :rolleyes: Jesus did not teach that signs, wonders and miracles will ever cease....but that signs follow true believers...who live a faith-filled life. You are curiously skipping over the faith issue and how this relates to the manifestations of God in our midst. This is indicative of the general laxness and faithlessness so far expressed in your ideology.

'O ye of little faith'


Dispensations are ok to distinguish certain epochs of time in the spectrum of eternity...but for you to limit the faith that Jesus taught we could have and exercise....and the power of God is not ok. It is ok to you...if you want to sit comfortable in your theological lazy-boy an criticize those who choose to release their faith and see God do wonders in our midst. You just cant release your faith to believe God. 'What is not of faith is sin' - one of your favorite apostles said. You are not a believer in Gods power are you? You limit what God can do and cant do.....which at the same time limits the power of faith relative to the dynamics of mind and spirit. You appear not to be seeing the correlation of spiritual gifts/things cooperating along with the dynamic of faith - the two are related in coordination. Because you have not been taught or apparently experienced these dynamics of mind and spirit...you find them more or less alien and counter them with your intellectual grounds and logics....which are born from doubt and unbelief.


There is always a mediating balance between most theological arguments......and while the two opposing sides obviously present their views which appear extreme in contradistinction.....true spiritual wisdom and insight will mediate an understanding where/when the Spirit of God comes in as teacher, leader and guide. Only the Spirit of truth can mediate, minister, unveil, discover such truth.

The principle issue of faith has been presented here...relative to the dynamic of faith manifesting in natural and supernatural ways in the experience of Man on the earth. Jesus clearly taught on these principles which some continue to devalue or take of no account. Without the essence of faith....no one can please or satisfy the divine Spirit.

Ideologies, theologies, theorems, thinking that does not permit or allow the liberty of the Spirit and the dynamics of faith to have their free course by divine Will and guidance....cannot give life or quicken the soul of Man. Man cannot progress far without the Spirits leading.



paul

1Way
February 5th, 2004, 05:26 PM
DrBrumley - Yes, that was more abrupt than normal, (chuckles) I am a little under the weather concerning my general outlook on life as of late. Unfortunately, 2 weeks ago I wrecked the company truck, it was basically totaled but no one was injured thank goodness, and today I just found out that the (insurance) review board rejected my eligibility to continue driving because it was deemed preventable and too costly.

I was on my last trip with the company before going into a one to two month leave in order to get my house back in order. Also my internet connection continues to give me fits, it ranges from 80k to 8k per sec. throughput. Cell phone as modem. So the darks clouds have been around me, sorry if I projected too much.

Also, I have been making some general posts to everyone and they were being somewhat overlooked, that is why I finally directly addressed you. Sorry for any negative reflection, I also appreciate your efforts very much too. Or, perhaps you (also) meant abrupt about my post to freelight, I agree, but it is aggravating so say the least to put forth so much effort and ministry from Godís word only to have them say something like, all I hear about them doubting that God does miracles today is a lack of evidence. ... Such a statement is tantamount to saying, what is going on with them, I donít know, but (I know) my comments are fitting. Perhaps you meant my post to Freak, but I doubt that. What a card he is. I will be challenged to keep my cool with godrulz, because of how much I know that he lifts up manmade tradition when he should be lifting up Godís word instead. Patience, God, I need patience,,, now!

godrulz
February 5th, 2004, 06:16 PM
Here is my humble opinion/conclusion. The root problem seems to be the circumcision/uncircumcision/dispensation issues. I believe this assumption is flawed and is leading to the following wrong conclusions: no miracles, no believer's baptism, OSAS.

John's Gospel highlights a number of dualisms: life/death; light/darkness; belief/unbelief, etc.

It also features 7 signs/miracles followed by 7 discourses: water to wine and the Nicodemus discourse; healing official's son and Samaritan woman; healing at pool and life through the Son; etc.

Each prominent OT miracle was done for a purpose. The flood/rainbow is not in the same category as healing a person of cancer. OT miracles are not an argument against NT miracles or modern miracles.
Stating all the miracles in the Bible does not mean that God does not do others that were not recorded (Jn. 21:25 we could fill the world with all the things God has done in the ministry of Christ and His church through the centuries). The Holy Spirit inspired some, but not all miracles to be recorded. It is really circular reasoning to assume that miracles have ceased because modern ones are not recorded in Scripture or of the same magnitude (cf. John...records seven signs and discourses for revelation, but not exhaustive).

drbrumley
February 5th, 2004, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by godrulz

Here is my humble opinion/conclusion. The root problem seems to be the circumcision/uncircumcision/dispensation issues. I believe this assumption is flawed and is leading to the following wrong conclusions: no miracles, no believer's baptism, OSAS.

John's Gospel highlights a number of dualisms: life/death; light/darkness; belief/unbelief, etc.

It also features 7 signs/miracles followed by 7 discourses: water to wine and the Nicodemus discourse; healing official's son and Samaritan woman; healing at pool and life through the Son; etc.

Each prominent OT miracle was done for a purpose. The flood/rainbow is not in the same category as healing a person of cancer. OT miracles are not an argument against NT miracles or modern miracles.
Stating all the miracles in the Bible does not mean that God does not do others that were not recorded (Jn. 21:25 we could fill the world with all the things God has done in the ministry of Christ and His church through the centuries). The Holy Spirit inspired some, but not all miracles to be recorded. It is really circular reasoning to assume that miracles have ceased because modern ones are not recorded in Scripture or of the same magnitude (cf. John...records seven signs and discourses for revelation, but not exhaustive).

Godrulz,

Thank you but can you clarify why circumcision/uncircumcision/dispensation issues would be a root problem. I'm not baiting you, Just asking for clarification. Why is it flawed in your opinion. Just seeking clarity again. Thank you in advance.

In Christ,
DRBrumley

godrulz
February 5th, 2004, 06:30 PM
My hunch is that "The Plot" is not the ultimate answer to reconcile all doctrinal discepancies. As good as it is, I do not think its basic assumption is defensible. I would have to respond page by page to the arguments in the book. It seems logical at first, but probably does not stand up to critical thinking. I keep finding verses in the book that are more like proof texts or out of context or not the best translation.

Again, I have just started reading the book, so am not prepared to debate it. I agree with many things, but if it leads to conclusions like no miracles, no baptism, OSAS I would reject it over the authority of Scripture (which I believe affirms a Pentecostal worldview, conditional eternal security, and believer's baptism for all believers in all generations after the resurrection).

Freak
February 5th, 2004, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

I want verifiable EVIDENCE that physical miracles are happening today. I could give you names, dates, locations, etc. What else do you want? What kind of evidence would prove to you that physical miracles are occuring today? See another example below.


The Bible teaches that Jesus rose from the dead. (A Miracle by any standard!)
The tomb He was laid in is PHYSICALLY empty! And we know this is true because God says it's true in His Word, not because there is evidence.

There is no physical evidence for the triune nature of God but we believe it to be true because God's Word says it's true. You are seeking physcial evidence while I believe the Scriptures are sufficent for truth.


EVIDENCE! not stories! That evidence is a real life Gospel story. Are you normally this dense?


And low and behold, you can confirm this Biblical idea with physical evidence! You cannot confirm the nature of God with physical evidence. Were you aware of this? You don't need physical evidence to prove something is true. We believe something is true because God says it's true. Case close.



In the same way, if miracles are happening today then we should be able to demonstrate that fact by the presentation of independently verifiable evidence.
I'll give you an another example:

Dr. Lee Jae-Rock, is a believer who preaches the gospel around the world and has seen many healings. He is a Asian pastor who pastors a 80,000 member church. Many of his healings have been documented by media outlets around the world.
In fact, Dan Wooding is an award winning British journalist now living in Southern California with his wife Norma, who has documented some of these miracles. He is the founder and international director of ASSIST (Aid to Special Saints in Strategic Times). Wooding is also a syndicated columnist, and was for ten years a commentator on the UPI Radio Network in Washington, DC. Read it here: http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/s03110045.htm

In one meeting alone, tens of thousands witnessed the miracles of healings and deliverances.

After testifying to their healing to Johnny Kim who interviewed them for television, people were then directed to the medical area where a team of Korean and Russian doctors took their details so they can begin to verify their claim to have been healed. This is done because skeptics often criticize this kind of meetings saying that they are purely emotion, so the medical doctors carry out a thorough investigation into healings and then will give their pronouncements on each one.

There were two medical teams on hand Ė one led by Dr. Vera, a professor at a St. Petersburg university and also a radio personality and writer Ė and Dr. Nikolai, who is a psychiatric professor at the Naval Academy.


"Dr. Nikolai is going to write a paper about the miracles that have taken place during the crusade,Ē said Johnny Kim. ďAnd Dr. Vera is planning to have a special seminar in which she will bring some of those who were healed before the medical community so that they can personally see what God has done! She is also planning to form a Christian doctors association in St. Petersburg.Ē

drbrumley
February 5th, 2004, 06:37 PM
Dr. Lee Jae-Rock, is a believer who preaches the gospel around the world and has seen many healings. He is a Asian pastor who pastors a 80,000 member church.

This should be the first clue!

Freak
February 5th, 2004, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by 1Way

Freak Ė (?) I thought you do exorcisms, as part of your ministry? Yes, I do.


I thought that doing exorcisms is part of your life that you affirm as being valid for today? You said:

"For Freak to overturn his views on miracles would basically invalidate his life and livelihood (religious exorcist if I'm informed correctly),"

I do not do exorcisms as my livelihood. That is a lie.



Is it true that you claim to be an exorcist as part of, or perhaps a large feature of your ministry? It is a part.


Also, naturally I thought that your book (how many? Just one, or?) confirms your beliefs about the work of the Holy Spirit including miracles and such things as exorcism for example. Yes, I have written several books on the subject.


Is that true, that you wrote a book that conforms to your faith about miracles? No, the book conforms to God's Revealed Word.


Lastly, I did mix your life and ministry with your livelihood, but I did so because of your book which I assume you do not give away, but rather hope to make a profit. The money I make off the book goes to ministry work. It is not my livelihood as you put it.


Is that true, that you do not give away your books, you try to sell them for a goal to actually make a profit? I have given many books away and have sold many around the world...Barnes & Noble, Borders, Walmart, etc sell the book. But all the money goes back to ministry work.


Please clarify; just claiming that I am wrong does not establish nor resolve anything. You're wrong because I have the inside information, because it is my life you are speaking of.

I expect a public retraction immediately. I do not live off ("livelihood" as you put it) exorcisms. By stating such a lie proves to all your personal hatred towards me (to lie and slander me publically) and to the ministry that Jesus did--exorcising those with demons.

1Way, will you retract your lie.

1. You have publically slandered me while acknowledging "if I'm informed correctly." Why don't you do the Godly thing and ask me personally before going on record as stating something that is untrue.

2. It is a lie to suggest that the alteration of my view on miracles would invalidate my life--a. my life's validation is found in Jesus Christ and His Word not in miracles, b. my belief in miracles is rooted in Scriptural truth and not in denial (your present condition).

Freak
February 5th, 2004, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by drbrumley



This should be the first clue! Were you aware that the church in Asia is growing much faster then in America. The underground church in China alone numbers in the hundreds of millions. Imagine that. Big world we live in, dr. :rolleyes:

Freak
February 5th, 2004, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by Knight

Clete... :first: What a joke. :down: Pathetic.

Clete, claims that physical evidence proves what God says is true. Jesus, who is God, stated, "Thy Word is truth." I believe Jesus and thereby don't need physical evidence. Jesus is the truth and speaks the truth--He says it, I believe it. Do you believe if Jesus says something is true, it's true regardless of physical evidence, Knight?

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

What physical evidence is there regarding this truth statement?

:p

freelight
February 5th, 2004, 06:55 PM
Hi,

Can someone further elaborate on this idea that water baptisms have ceased??? wow - thats a new one. (another Plot doctrine?). I went thru the whole debates over this on another thread emphasizing the essentiality of the Spirit-immersion....physical water baptism being an outward act confirming baptism in Christ...but not absolutely necessary in all cases. Those water-baptism advocates are pretty extreme - hard to reason with.

I would like to know more about water baptisms being ceased. I have not read 'the Plot'.....nor have felt drawn to it by what I am finding out so far. Where does one access this book anyways? Water baptisms are fine/permissible in my book....as long as they are performed with understanding relative to the essential Spirit-baptism when we are immmersed into Christ and the general principles of death/resurrection/new life.


paul

Freak
February 5th, 2004, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by godrulz

Freak: Biblical reference for last quote would help our friends read the context and feel its impact. Scriptural truth is not something they're intersted in.

Jesus' words were found in John 14.


Have you heard of 'Pigs in the Parlor?' Who wrote that book? I disagree that there is a demon behind every rock. I hope you have a balanced deliverance ministry. Yes, I have. It's not Biblically sound. Check out Dr. Merrill Unger's work on deliverance. Former professor of Old Testament at Dallas Theological Seminary. I am accountable to a number of respected pastors and professors who are solid in their respective fields. One is a professor at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, the other is a pastor of a 4, 000 member Southern Baptist church, and another is a pastor of a conservative Anglican fellowship.

drbrumley
February 5th, 2004, 07:00 PM
Freelight,

Ceased may have been the wrong word. Forgive me. Water baptism is not essential for salvation as it was to the Jews. If you want to get water baptised, then go right ahead. But it's not a requiement as John the Baptist used to say, Repent and be baptised!

Freak
February 5th, 2004, 07:10 PM
Dr. Lee Jae-Rock, is a believer who preaches the gospel around the world and has seen many healings. He is a Asian pastor who pastors a 80,000 member church. Many of his healings have been documented by media outlets around the world.
In fact, Dan Wooding is an award winning British journalist now living in Southern California with his wife Norma, who has documented some of these miracles. He is the founder and international director of ASSIST (Aid to Special Saints in Strategic Times). Wooding is also a syndicated columnist, and was for ten years a commentator on the UPI Radio Network in Washington, DC. Read it here: http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/s03110045.htm

In one meeting alone, tens of thousands witnessed the miracles of healings and deliverances.

After testifying to their healing to Johnny Kim who interviewed them for television, people were then directed to the medical area where a team of Korean and Russian doctors took their details so they can begin to verify their claim to have been healed. This is done because skeptics often criticize this kind of meetings saying that they are purely emotion, so the medical doctors carry out a thorough investigation into healings and then will give their pronouncements on each one.

There were two medical teams on hand Ė one led by Dr. Vera, a professor at a St. Petersburg university and also a radio personality and writer Ė and Dr. Nikolai, who is a psychiatric professor at the Naval Academy.

Freak
February 5th, 2004, 07:12 PM
We are told miracles testify of the Lord Jesus and His salvation...

This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Here we are told God uses miracles for His purposes, yet you desire to do away with them. Bizarre...

The apostle John penned these words..

Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name.

It was because of people seeing the miracles that people "believed in His name."

Miracles glorify God, Clete. They do not dishonor Him. So, why in the world would you teach that miracles have disappeared when we are told in Scripture that miracles bring honor & glory to God? Flawed theology you have there, Clete.

People doubted Jesus raising from the dead. People doubt the inerrancy of Scripture. People, like yourself, like to doubt the things of God. This is not unusual. Yet, in Holy Scripture we are told...

...that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. Clete, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.

Clete, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this????

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

If Jesusí miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldnít they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Canít we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?

freelight
February 5th, 2004, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by drbrumley

Freelight,

Ceased may have been the wrong word. Forgive me. Water baptism is not essential for salvation as it was to the Jews. If you want to get water baptised, then go right ahead. But it's not a requiement as John the Baptist used to say, Repent and be baptised!


)=======Hi drbrumley,................okay - I hold that it is not essential for salvation as well. It can serve to inspire, fortify and express ones faith however.....as a testimony towards one conversion.


paul

Flipper
February 5th, 2004, 07:21 PM
Award winning British journalist, eh? He never says which awards he won on his web site (a bit of a slip for a journalist, really).

I've never heard of any of the publications he worked for except one. He mentions working on the Sunday People, which was and remains a sleazy tabloid of the lowest order (see for yourself - http://www.people.co.uk/). That was his one and only job of note.

His book about Amin's Uganda was published in 1980 and Amin was given the old heave-ho in 1979. A book about how horrible Idi Amin was at that stage wasn't exactly big news.

I can't say I'm particularly fired up by his credentials.

1Way
February 5th, 2004, 07:29 PM
Freak - Thanks for validating what I thought was true about you, you have a huge personal investment such that would dramatically affect your entire life and ministry, even your reputation, not to mention income from book sales, for you to say that miracles are not happening today, would change a lot. It does not matter what the profit goes towards, that is your own personal free will choice about what to do with part of your livelihood. Say, what is the name of this book, that I might be able to at least see your work sometime.

Also, I would not care if you never made a dime off your ministry in terms of profit, the money is not the point, if your lifeís ministry purely affirms the miraculous is happening today, then for you to deny the miraculous is happening today, would invalidate a HUGE aspect at the very foundation of your lifeís ministry, your lifeís work, what you care about the most. And so of course that could be a huge barrier to oneís objectivity.

freelight
February 5th, 2004, 07:42 PM
Hi Freak and all,

I only skimmed thru the 'Pigs in the parlor' book once - was somewhat interesting....yet seemed to indicate that every negative emotion and even cult or false religion has or is a spirit-entity of some sort. There are some things, energies that are in sync with certain emotions, fruits and manifestations....but only true discerning of spirits can distinguish these.

Others books and authors on this subject come to mind - Kurt E Koch, Francis Macnutt(catholic), Rebecca Brown, Don Bashan, Peter Wagner, Neil T. Anderson, Lester Sumrall, Maxwell White, Bob Larson, Malachi Martin(catholic), - these all have some basic essentials and their own unique aspects....and may reflect different backgrounds/experience - the basics of the power of CHrists Name, His blood, and the Word of God (plus the faith of the believer) are all employed more or less....to acheive deliverance from the bondage and oppression of all kinds of spirits. I like to learn from the masters or pioneers of whatever field I am looking into - its wonderful.

There certainly is a time for spiritual warfare - I think the key is discernment and walking in the Holy Spirit - divine guidance in every way. These ministries which God has given to His church require the gifts of the Spirit to operate! - in this ministry the discerning of spirits and gifts of healing work hand in hand - along with gifts of counsel, words of wisdom, knowledge, etc. These endowments of the Spirit are so vital!!!!!!!! How can the church operate without them? In some sectors of the 'church' these do not operate for lack of knowledge, experience and Spirit-guidance. Thank God for those parts of the church who are equipped and anointed to do such - setting the captives free and healing the broken hearted - this includes healing of spirit, soul and body - total deliverance! God bless the anointed ones who are doing his work. So many are in need today of Gods touch/presence/salvation/deliverance.


paul

drbrumley
February 5th, 2004, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by freelight

)=======Hi drbrumley,................okay - I hold that it is not essential for salvation as well. It can serve to inspire, fortify and express ones faith however.....as a testimony towards one conversion.


paul

Freelight,

Just one question if I may,

Was baptism essential to salvation as Our Lord Jesus Christ said? Also John the Baptist?

Freak
February 5th, 2004, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by 1Way

Freak - Thanks for validating what I thought was true about you, you have a huge personal investment such that would dramatically affect [u]your entire life and ministry, The issue here is your lies. I expect a public retraction immediately. I do not live off ("livelihood" as you put it) exorcisms. By stating such a lie proves to all your personal hatred towards me (to lie and slander me publically) and to the ministry that Jesus did--exorcising those with demons.

This is the point---you claimed my livelihood was exorcisms. This is not the case. So, will you do the Godly thing and repent of your slander?

1Way, will you retract your lie?

1. You have publically slandered me while acknowledging "if I'm informed correctly." Why don't you do the Godly thing and ask me personally before going on record as stating something that is untrue.

2. It is a lie to suggest that the alteration of my view on miracles would invalidate my life--a. my life's validation is found in Jesus Christ and His Word not in miracles, b. my belief in miracles is rooted in Scriptural truth and not in denial (your present condition).


Also, I would not care if you never made a dime off your ministry in terms of profit, the money is not the point, if your lifeís ministry purely affirms the miraculous is happening today, then for you to deny the miraculous is happening today, would invalidate a HUGE aspect at the very foundation of your lifeís ministry, your lifeís work, what you care about the most. Jesus's very own life in me is miraculous, idiot. His santification, His redemption, the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, my future glorification, are all elements of the miraculous. Yes, to deny these elements would deny the living Jesus Christ who works within me. What I care most about is the testimony of Jesus and God's very own revealed word-the Holy Scriptures.


And so of course that could be a huge barrier to oneís objectivity. You remain in darkness, and remain spiritually sick. My objective standard for truth is Scripture which clealry teaches miracles still occur in our day. This you deny, this causes your present spiritual sickness and madness.

Freak
February 5th, 2004, 09:02 PM
Originally posted by 1Way

Freak - And so of course that could be a huge barrier to oneís objectivity. Scripture is the objective standard we live by, 1Way...

At least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him. Do you know why this is?

Freak
February 5th, 2004, 09:05 PM
Originally posted by freelight

Hi Freak and all,

Others books and authors on this subject come to mind - Kurt E Koch, Francis Macnutt(catholic), Rebecca Brown, Don Bashan, Peter Wagner, Neil T. Anderson, Lester Sumrall, Maxwell White, Bob Larson, Malachi Martin(catholic), - these all have some basic essentials and their own unique aspects....and may reflect different backgrounds/experience - the basics of the power of CHrists Name, His blood, and the Word of God (plus the faith of the believer) are all employed more or less....to acheive deliverance from the bondage and oppression of all kinds of spirits. I like to learn from the masters or pioneers of whatever field I am looking into - its wonderful.

Yes,

Don Basham, Larson, Maxwell Whyte, and Dr. Koch are all fine teachers on the subject of deliverance who embrace the essentials of the historic Christian faith.


Thank God for those parts of the church who are equipped and anointed to do such - setting the captives free and healing the broken hearted - this includes healing of spirit, soul and body - total deliverance! God bless the anointed ones who are doing his work. So many are in need today of Gods touch/presence/salvation/deliverance.


paul :thumb:

Turbo
February 5th, 2004, 09:16 PM
Freak, I thought you were in the ministry full-time.

What is your livelihood, if not your ministry? Do you have a job or a business apart from your ministry?

Freak
February 5th, 2004, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by freelight

Hi,

Can someone further elaborate on this idea that water baptisms have ceased??? wow - thats a new one. (another Plot doctrine?).
paul Many Plot doctrines but a few Biblical doctrines. :think:

Freak
February 5th, 2004, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

Freak, I thought you were in the ministry full-time. There has been times in my life I was serving the Lord Jesus full-time. Presently, I operate my own small vending business and do the work of God all over the world, nearly 30 nations.


What is your livelihood, if not your ministry? My own vending business.


Do you have a job or a business apart from your ministry? I work full-time with my vending business. Turbo, this is why I'm offended by 1Way's lies.

I expect a public retraction immediately, 1Way. I do not live off ("livelihood" as you put it) exorcisms. By stating such a lie proves to all your personal hatred towards me (to lie and slander me publically) and to the ministry that Jesus did--exorcising those with demons.

This is the point---you claimed my livelihood was exorcisms. This is not the case. So, will you do the Godly thing and repent of your slander?

1Way, will you retract your lie?

drbrumley
February 5th, 2004, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Freak

Many Plot doctrines but a few Biblical doctrines. :think:

Freak,

This has already been covered! I used the wrong word. Besides your beliefs on this issue are in line WITH the Plot on this issue.

Just goes to show, you haven't even read the bookyou nimrod!!!! :chuckle:

Clete
February 5th, 2004, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by Freak

Dr. Lee Jae-Rock, is a believer who preaches the gospel around the world and has seen many healings. He is a Asian pastor who pastors a 80,000 member church. Many of his healings have been documented by media outlets around the world.
In fact, Dan Wooding is an award winning British journalist now living in Southern California with his wife Norma, who has documented some of these miracles. He is the founder and international director of ASSIST (Aid to Special Saints in Strategic Times). Wooding is also a syndicated columnist, and was for ten years a commentator on the UPI Radio Network in Washington, DC. Read it here: http://www.assistnews.net/Stories/s03110045.htm

In one meeting alone, tens of thousands witnessed the miracles of healings and deliverances.

After testifying to their healing to Johnny Kim who interviewed them for television, people were then directed to the medical area where a team of Korean and Russian doctors took their details so they can begin to verify their claim to have been healed. This is done because skeptics often criticize this kind of meetings saying that they are purely emotion, so the medical doctors carry out a thorough investigation into healings and then will give their pronouncements on each one.

There were two medical teams on hand Ė one led by Dr. Vera, a professor at a St. Petersburg university and also a radio personality and writer Ė and Dr. Nikolai, who is a psychiatric professor at the Naval Academy.

Freak,

I'm sure that typing this post will be a further waste of my time but since you have at least made some sort of an effort to comply with my request for evidence then I will continue for now. I will say, however, that your statements to Knight prove that you are being willfully ignorant in regards to the point I'm making, or you are just plain stupid or both, and so I doubt that I'll be able to tolerate this discussion for very much longer.

You apparently do not understand what verifiable evidence is.
I live in Oklahoma. My parents live less than ten minutes away from Oral Roberts University and less than five minutes from Rhema Bible College, Church on the Move, Victory Christian Center and about four other major, world wide Pentecostal ministries and you come up with something in Asia! Brilliant! I'll run right out this weekend and clear up this whole issue. What was Dr. Rocks address again? I'll just pop over to Korea or Japan or wherever he's from and get the low down on this miracle thing and I'll report back first thing Monday morning!

Come on Freak; give me a break will ya!? This is just more UFO stories; Just enough info to sound credible but just far enough out of reach to be utterly unverifiable by any normal person.
Let's try once more and maybe you could give us one that allows us to stay on this side of the big pond and if we're lucky maybe we could keep it inside the borders of Oklahoma. Surely good old Oral Roberts or his son, Richard has performed at least one verifiable miracle that you're aware of. If not, thatís fine, maybe you know of one that Kenneth Hagen or his son Ken Jr. has performed. No? Perhaps Billy Joe Daugherty then? Well, maybe he's too local. You may have never heard of him.
Oh well, it doesn't matter. Just pick somebody in the U.S. please. Someone close enough that it won't cost a fortune to investigate, in fact the less investigation the better really. After all, anyone who had actually performed such a miracle would have documented it I hope. But either way, I'm not apposed to doing a reasonable about of leg work if it comes to that.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

P.S. PLEASE donít freak out about how Iíve poked a little fun at you with this post. All but the first paragraph is just a little light hearted sarcasm, not meant to be insulting. I donít know whether youíll appreciate my sense of humor or not but I have to do something to keep myself interested. I just hate going round and round in endless circles like this.
God bless.

Turbo
February 5th, 2004, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by Freak

There has been times in my life I was serving the Lord Jesus full-time. Presently, I operate my own small vending business and do the work of God all over the world, nearly 30 nations.

My own vending business.

I work full-time with my vending business. Turbo, this is why I'm offended by 1Way's lies.

I expect a public retraction immediately, 1Way. I do not live off ("livelihood" as you put it) exorcisms. By stating such a lie proves to all your personal hatred towards me (to lie and slander me publically) and to the ministry that Jesus did--exorcising those with demons.

This is the point---you claimed my livelihood was exorcisms. This is not the case. So, will you do the Godly thing and repent of your slander?

1Way, will you retract your lie? Why do you insist that 1Way was "lying?" A lie (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=lie) is "a false statement deliberately presented as being true."

Isn't it possible, even probable, that he really thought your ministry was your full-time vocation? I thought it was. I don't remember you ever mentioning your vending business on these boards. I seriously doubt 1Way was aware of it. Besides, you say you have at times worked in the ministry full-time, so 1Way's misconception isn't too far off.

I think you're mountain out of a molehill to distract from 1Way's real point: that you have a lot invested into your side of this particular debate, which could naturally lead to a strong bias.

godrulz
February 6th, 2004, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by drbrumley


80,000 member church

This should be the first clue!

That God is at work in their midst?

Freak: 1way is using the logical fallacy 'argumentum ad hominem' attacking your motives, credibility, and person, rather than dealing with your evidence or Scriptural foundation.

Here is another impactful ministry with verifiable miracles:

www.cfan.org

He was called to be an apostle to Africa, preaches the Gospel with boldness, and the Word is confirmed with signs following, as Jesus promised.

godrulz
February 6th, 2004, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by drbrumley

Freelight,

Ceased may have been the wrong word. Forgive me. Water baptism is not essential for salvation as it was to the Jews. If you want to get water baptised, then go right ahead. But it's not a requiement as John the Baptist used to say, Repent and be baptised!

Enyart's church does not water baptize. Most Christians believe it is an important step of testimony and obedience for new believers. It is not salvific (baptismal regeneration). DR makes it sound optional. I suspect it should be considered wrong if it puts us under their concept of the circumcision's law/gospel.

freelight
February 6th, 2004, 12:39 AM
Originally posted by drbrumley

Freelight,

Just one question if I may,

Was baptism essential to salvation as Our Lord Jesus Christ said? Also John the Baptist?



)=========== well,...........depends on where it is written that Jesus spoke of baptism and ones interpretation of that. From what I know of what Jesus said of it (some I suspect may be interpolations).....it appears to be part of the preaching of the kingdom and conversion protocol to be practiced among those who receive the gospel and believe. (Matt 28, Mark 16 - as far as Johns record he suggests that Jesus baptized converts - John 3:22 -26. Later however it is implied that Jesus did no baptizing himself - John 4:1,2. go figure.

As far as the Lord Jesus teaching that water baptism is essential to salvation ....I dont see it although many hold to this. It cannot be denied however...that he does instruct it - if you trust the Matt 28:19 and the addition in Mark 16.

John the baptists ministry was more concerned with water immersion and the prototype it represented analogous to repentance and a washing away of sins. Johns call to repentance was a necessary step in anyone changing/turning their minds and entering into the Kingdom....thus preparing them for the Spirit-baptism of the Christ. Elijah always comes first....to turn the hearts...then the Lords Anointed comes with full salvation to bring total restoration. Elijah sets up for the restoration....and the Christ comes in and completes, perfects, fulfills the restoration. Elijah goes before the Christ and prepares the way of the Lord. The Elijahian ministry continues today....preparing the way.


Both baptisms have their place in the evolution of mans conversion to the Light. I have debated to exhaustion the water baptism absolutists and have always held this - water baptism does not/cannot save a soul. Only repentance can begin the process of salvation and prepare one to enter into the Kingdom. Ultimately....only the Spirit-baptism of the Christ avails to immerse one into the Spirit of God....where there is liberty and Life. So...the essential immersion is the baptism in the Holy Spirit and Fire. This immersion is the true conversion into divine Life. Physical acts, rites, rituals may serve mans religious peity.....when they coordinate and confirm the inner spirit-realities of the conversion of the soul.
Immersion in holy spirit is the essential. Putting on Christ...and being immersed in Christ.....is the essential. Spirit-ual renewal, regeneration, illumination, anointing, leadership....is the primary directive.


paul

Freak
February 6th, 2004, 05:05 AM
Originally posted by Turbo

Why do you insist that 1Way was "lying?" Wanna talk about a strong bias. Look in the mirror.

As Godrulz pointed out: Freak: 1way is using the logical fallacy 'argumentum ad hominem' attacking your motives, credibility, and person, rather than dealing with your evidence or Scriptural foundation.

So true and now Turbo has fallen in line to support/endorse 1Way's personal attacks upon me. Pathetic! :down:

Freak
February 6th, 2004, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Freak,

Brilliant! I'll run right out this weekend and clear up this whole issue. What was Dr. Rocks address again? You could contact the journalist that was covering the meetings where the miracles were occuring. His email was available. He could not doubt provide the necessary information to investigate these miracles. Oh, but you wouldn't want to do that, you're too lazy! You'd rather have me spoon feed you by finding you evidence of a miracle in your hometown. So here is some miracles you can investigate personally as they are in Oklahoma City:

http://www.jesusbooth.com/nathan.htm

Phone Number: 1 405 606-0076


I'll just pop over to Korea or Japan or wherever he's from and get the low down on this miracle thing and I'll report back first thing Monday morning! Who ever said you need to travel to Asia? Do you have to personally travel to South Africa to know that Mendala was once president of that great nation? Do you have to travel to China to know millions are following Jesus Christ? Or can we rely upon the testimony of those who have witnessed these items themselves?


Come on Freak; give me a break will ya!? This is just more UFO stories; Just enough info to sound credible but just far enough out of reach to be utterly unverifiable by any normal person. Cop out. We do live in an age of instant communication, try emailing the journalist. Ask for documentation.


You may have never heard of him. Nope, not familiar with those pastors. I've heard of Oral Roberts but that's all.


I just hate going round and round in endless circles like this. You don't need to. Let's discuss what the Bible has to say. That is why I asked you to deal with the Biblical foundations, which you have ignored from day 1, by which we hold unto the truths we have been discussing. Let's try again...

Let's start with some basics, Clete...

From Scripture we know that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. Clete, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.

Clete, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this????

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

If Jesusí miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldnít they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Canít we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?

Freak
February 6th, 2004, 06:20 AM
Originally posted by godrulz

That God is at work in their midst?

Freak: 1way is using the logical fallacy 'argumentum ad hominem' attacking your motives, credibility, and person, rather than dealing with your evidence or Scriptural foundation.

Here is another impactful ministry with verifiable miracles:

www.cfan.org

He was called to be an apostle to Africa, preaches the Gospel with boldness, and the Word is confirmed with signs following, as Jesus promised. :thumb:

Turbo
February 6th, 2004, 06:44 AM
Originally posted by Freak

As Godrulz pointed out: Freak: 1way is using the logical fallacy 'argumentum ad hominem' attacking your motives, credibility, and person, rather than dealing with your evidence or Scriptural foundation. That doesn't mean he was lying: deliberately making a false statement.

drbrumley
February 6th, 2004, 06:50 AM
Originally posted by godrulz

Enyart's church does not water baptize. Most Christians believe it is an important step of testimony and obedience for new believers. It is not salvific (baptismal regeneration). DR makes it sound optional. I suspect it should be considered wrong if it puts us under their concept of the circumcision's law/gospel.

So what if Denver Bible Church doesn't baptize? I know most christians use baptism as a testimony of thier conversion. But that is besides the point. You are correct, it is not a salvation issue being water baptised. But to the Jews it was. John the Baptist said, Repent and be baptised for remission of sins. So for a Jew to have his sins washed away, he/she had to do what John the Baptist had said and Jesus as well. All we have to do now is repent. The Holy Spirit baptizes us into His body. What I consider wrong is applying what was for Isreal to the Body of Christ. Sign gifts included. And it is not our concept of the circumcision's law/gospel. It is straight biblical truth.

drbrumley
February 6th, 2004, 07:42 AM
1Way,

I have been meaning to ask you. I notice you live in Indiana. Is your name Dustin or AOL handle Dustin by chance? I met a man on AOL sometime ago and we talked alittle and he knew Bob when Bob did his show from Indiana. Just curious.

In Christ,
DRBrumley

godrulz
February 6th, 2004, 10:27 AM
Originally posted by drbrumley

So what if Denver Bible Church doesn't baptize? I know most christians use baptism as a testimony of thier conversion. But that is besides the point. You are correct, it is not a salvation issue being water baptised. But to the Jews it was. John the Baptist said, Repent and be baptised for remission of sins. So for a Jew to have his sins washed away, he/she had to do what John the Baptist had said and Jesus as well. All we have to do now is repent. The Holy Spirit baptizes us into His body. What I consider wrong is applying what was for Isreal to the Body of Christ. Sign gifts included. And it is not our concept of the circumcision's law/gospel. It is straight biblical truth.

I guess we differ on what applies to Israel and what applies to the church. I know there is a distinction, but I do not think Christian doctrine needs to be exised from much of the NT to support an arbitrary interpretation model that is out of sync with most credible scholarship. I think you are confusing your interpretation of the Bible with the intended revelation. Most do not see your 'straight truth' intuitively without a teacher or 'The Plot'.

I believe a case can be made for believer's baptism for all Christians in the new Church Age.

drbrumley
February 6th, 2004, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by godrulz


I guess we differ on what applies to Israel and what applies to the church. I know there is a distinction,

I guess so, I pray that we will one day be on the same page.


but I do not think Christian doctrine needs to be exised from much of the NT to support an arbitrary interpretation model that is out of sync with most credible scholarship

What Christian doctrine are we speaking of here? And I don'tsee how anything is getting exised. Everything is accounted for.


I think you are confusing your interpretation of the Bible with the intended revelation.

Please enlighten me as to what the intended revelation is.


Most do not see your 'straight truth' intuitively without a teacher or 'The Plot'.

The Plot has nothing really to do with this. But you raise a valid point here! More on this later.

In Christ,
DRBrumley

Jerry Shugart
February 6th, 2004, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by drbrumley
You are correct, it is not a salvation issue being water baptised. But to the Jews it was. John the Baptist said, Repent and be baptised for remission of sins. So for a Jew to have his sins washed away, he/she had to do what John the Baptist had said and Jesus as well. All we have to do now is repent.
Dear DRBrumley,

All the Jews had to do to have their sins taken away was to "repent",as the words of Peter demonstrate:

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord"(Acts3:19).

All the Jew had to do to have their sins "blotted out" was to "repent" and be "converted".Peter says nothing about having to be baptized with water for the remission of sins.In regard to Acts 3:38 the following is the correct rendering of Peter's words:

"Repent (and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ) for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"(Acts2:38).

The word "repent" is translated from the Greek word "metanoeo",and in this verse it is aorist active imperative,2nd person plural,or "all of you repent".The word "repent" means to change the mind.Peter was telling "all" the Jews to change their minds in regard to Jesus Christ and be converted so they would receive the remission of their sins.

There is a syntactical break in the words that follow from the "2nd person plural" to the "3rd person singular"--"and let each one be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ".

That change provides a parenthesis between the word "repent" and the words "and be bpatized":

"Repent (and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ) for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"(Acts2:38).

So Peter is saying,Repent for the remission of sins,and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit".

The Jewish believers were not saved by "faith" plus "works".Peter himself says that he was saved by "grace" just as were the Gentile believers:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved,just as they are"(Acts15:11).

If it is of "grace" then it is not of "works".Otherwise,"grace" is no longer "grace" (Ro.11:6).

In His grace,--Jerry

Clete
February 6th, 2004, 01:09 PM
Jerry,

This is off topic but I can't resist!

How do you account for the book of James?

James 2 :24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jam/Jam002.html#24) "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

godrulz
February 6th, 2004, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Jerry,

This is off topic but I can't resist!

How do you account for the book of James?

James 2 :24 (http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jam/Jam002.html#24) "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

James and Romans do not contradict as Luther felt they did. Romans emphasizes the root of justification which is faith (consistent with the OT Hab. 2:4 and Rom. 1:17; 3:28). James is a practical letter that emphasizes the fruit of saving faith (works). There is only one Gospel and one way to be justified for Jew and Gentile (grace/faith). Genuine faith (internal) will result in outward works as evidence. A saving faith without works is dead and not genuine faith (it is mere mental assent or head knowledge). Most North Americans 'believe in God' (as do demons...James 2:19), yet only a minority have genuine faith/trust/love/obedience that is evidenced by good works, among other things.

James was written primarily to Jewish believers, but that does not mean it does not apply in principle to all believers or contradicts Romans and the OT.

A proper understanding of the relationship between faith (root) and works (fruit) negates the need to make an extreme dispensational distinction between the circumcision and uncircumcision (especially in the post-resurrection church age).

Romans 3 righteousness is through faith for all believers:

3:27-31 "...For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the law. Is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by FAITH and the uncircumcised through the SAME FAITH. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law."

(read Romans 1-8 verse by verse to establish the one Gospel for Jew and Gentile)

James 2:14-26 Faith without deeds is useless (practical Christian living, not justification issues for the uncircumcision)

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do."

This is not setting up an antithesis between Jewish and Gentile converts. It is simply contrasting genuine faith and practical works (without contradicting the great book of Romans that applies for all men who would follow Christ...all have sinned, Jew and Gentile; all can be saved through faith in Christ, apart from works/law, but not the kind of faith that does not lead to obedience and works).

Freak
February 6th, 2004, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Turbo

That doesn't mean he was lying: deliberately making a false statement.

As Godrulz pointed out: Freak: 1way is using the logical fallacy 'argumentum ad hominem' attacking your motives, credibility, and person, rather than dealing with your evidence or Scriptural foundation.

Too bad you don't see the truth. :down:

Freak
February 6th, 2004, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by drbrumley

So what if Denver Bible Church doesn't baptize? I know most christians use baptism as a testimony of thier conversion. But that is besides the point. You are correct, it is not a salvation issue being water baptised. But to the Jews it was. Now I know why I don't listen to you. To the Jews Jesus Christ said these words:

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.

In light of these words, would a Jew, attain salvation through belief in Jesus?

Clete
February 6th, 2004, 05:59 PM
Originally posted by godrulz

James and Romans do not contradict as Luther felt they did. Romans emphasizes the root of justification which is faith (consistent with the OT Hab. 2:4 and Rom. 1:17; 3:28). James is a practical letter that emphasizes the fruit of saving faith (works). There is only one Gospel and one way to be justified for Jew and Gentile (grace/faith). Genuine faith (internal) will result in outward works as evidence. A saving faith without works is dead and not genuine faith (it is mere mental assent or head knowledge). Most North Americans 'believe in God' (as do demons...James 2:19), yet only a minority have genuine faith/trust/love/obedience that is evidenced by good works, among other things.

James was written primarily to Jewish believers, but that does not mean it does not apply in principle to all believers or contradicts Romans and the OT.

A proper understanding of the relationship between faith (root) and works (fruit) negates the need to make an extreme dispensational distinction between the circumcision and uncircumcision (especially in the post-resurrection church age).

Romans 3 righteousness is through faith for all believers:

3:27-31 "...For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the law. Is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by FAITH and the uncircumcised through the SAME FAITH. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law."

(read Romans 1-8 verse by verse to establish the one Gospel for Jew and Gentile)

James 2:14-26 Faith without deeds is useless (practical Christian living, not justification issues for the uncircumcision)

"Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do."

This is not setting up an antithesis between Jewish and Gentile converts. It is simply contrasting genuine faith and practical works (without contradicting the great book of Romans that applies for all men who would follow Christ...all have sinned, Jew and Gentile; all can be saved through faith in Christ, apart from works/law, but not the kind of faith that does not lead to obedience and works).
James means precisely what he said, and so did Paul. They do not contradict each other because they are not written to the same audience. James clearly addresses his letter to "the twelve tribes" of which we are not a part and to whom the principles he taught directly apply.

Keep reading The Plot. By the end of chapter four if you still disagree we'll discuss it further.

God Bless you and yours!

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

P.S. I will endeavor to investigate Freakís miracle and will report my findings in due time.

Freak
February 6th, 2004, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer


P.S. I will endeavor to investigate Freakís miracle and will report my findings in due time. Great. Looking forward to your response. I may contact the individual myself for his testimony was inspiring. :up:

Freak
February 6th, 2004, 06:25 PM
Btw, the miracle Clete is referring to was Nathan's:

http://www.jesusbooth.com/nathan.htm

You'll be encouraged to hear of God's miracle working power and grace!

godrulz
February 6th, 2004, 07:11 PM
The primary audience of James was Jewish Christians. The style would communicate Christianity in a more meaningful way to them. They should also take Romans to heart as a great exposition of the one gospel. I am not ready yet to jump to the conclusion that the contents of James is limited to Jewish believers. There is neither Jew nor Gentile in the modern church, but we are one in Christ. At this point, I think it is arbitrary to make 2 classes in the new Body of Christ. There was a transition period in the early church, but to relegate much of the NT to the minority of believers today seems unlikely. I will let you know when I make more progress in my understanding of your premise.

drbrumley
February 6th, 2004, 07:52 PM
Godrulz,

Is the Body of Christ Isreal? I mean that's got to be the answer if James is to be taken as what he says. The 12 tribes. Don't you think?

In Christ,
DRBrumley

Clete
February 6th, 2004, 08:33 PM
Originally posted by godrulz

There was a transition period in the early church, but to relegate much of the NT to the minority of believers today seems unlikely.
I don't understand what this sentence means. Please rephrase for me.


I will let you know when I make more progress in my understanding of your premise.
Cool! :cool:
I'm anxious to see what you think about it!

Rest in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

Clete
February 6th, 2004, 08:47 PM
Originally posted by Freak

Great. Looking forward to your response. I may contact the individual myself for his testimony was inspiring. :up:

You absolutely mustn't contact this person until after I have posted the results of my investigation Freak! How am I to know that he hasn't been coached? Not that it would really matter all that much. It's not as if I wouldn't be able to tell. But if you wish to have this source of yours retain any credibility at all then I urge you to refrain from having any contact with him until after I have had a chance to do so myself.

I'll take this opportunity to let you know that it will be a few days before I will have the chance to get started with my investigation because I'll be going out of town for the weekend. I thank you in advance for your patience.

I'll also take the opportunity to give you the chance to change your mind on this if you like. If I find that this guy is delusional or a fraud or is in some other way is a total waste of my time you will not like the result. Feel free to give me a miracle that you think is absolutely iron clad if there an ounce of doubt in your mind about this one because I will not be willing to do this twice.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

Freak
February 6th, 2004, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

You absolutely mustn't contact this person until after I have posted the results of my investigation Freak! I'll contact him after you contact him, ok?


How am I to know that he hasn't been coached? Give me a break. My powers of persuasion might alter his testimony, right?


But if you wish to have this source of yours retain any credibility at all then I urge you to refrain from having any contact with him until after I have had a chance to do so myself. I haven't contacted him, his testimony stands as it is.


I'll also take the opportunity to give you the chance to change your mind on this if you like. On what the Bible says about miracles? No!


If I find that this guy is delusional or a fraud or is in some other way is a total waste of my time you will not like the result. Do your investigation and get back with us. In the meantime, deal with the Scriptural foundation of our belief in miracles.


Feel free to give me a miracle that you think is absolutely iron clad if there an ounce of doubt in your mind about this one because I will not be willing to do this twice.
Clete, doing an investigation isn't difficult. I used to do corporate investigations for a living and was able to complete several coporate investigations daily. What's so difficult. I provided a phone number. Easy.

For the record: I don't expect much from you Clete. Even if Jesus raised from the dead before your very own eyes you would still doubt. :(

godrulz
February 6th, 2004, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by drbrumley

Godrulz,

Is the Body of Christ Isreal? I mean that's got to be the answer if James is to be taken as what he says. The 12 tribes. Don't you think?

In Christ,
DRBrumley


Some would say the church is spiritual Israel. I still maintain a difference between national Israel and the Church/Body of Christ which is composed of Jew and Gentile. Hebrews and James were directed to Jewish believers who left Judaism for Christianity. James and others used Hebraisms and references that would be more meaningful to them. We do the same thing when we relate the Gospel differently to a biker gang member vs a religious senior citizen who does not know Christ. It does not mean that we are sharing two different gospels, but communicate somewhat differently to a different target audience. The same basic message is communicated to the Gentiles, but uses idioms and illustrations that would resonate more with them (they did not have Judaism in their background). There is no need to make a huge divide in message simply because a different target audience and emphasis is given in some NT books.

godrulz
February 6th, 2004, 09:26 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer


GR: <There was a transition period in the early church>= the disputes in the Book of Acts show that it was hard for the Jewish believers to accept the Gentiles into the Church. They wrestled with what issues were core to the Gospel and should be applicable to Jew and Gentile, what issues could be retained by Jewish believers without compromising their new faith, and what the Gentiles could or could not do to be worthy believers....e.g. circumcision dispute. Enyart develops this well in the early chapters.


GR: <but to relegate much of the NT to the minority of believers is unlikey>= I may be misunderstanding, but if much of the NT primarily applies to the circumcision, then many verses we assume are for all believers (Jew and Gentile background) only apply in principle, not explicitly. i.e. there are not many Messianic Christians today or in church history. Rather than the NT equally applying to the vast majority of believers through the centuries, it seems you would limit it to the minority of believers with Jewish background...i.e. I believe James applies equally to Jew and Gentile and miracles and water baptism are for the Body of Christ as a whole (Jew/Gentile background being irrelevant since the dividing wall is torn down by the death/resurrection of Christ).

Your view reminds me of the Jehovah's Witnesses who say most of the NT applies to the 144,000 born-again believers, and only remotely to the vast majority who will be on paradise earth (similar idea of 2 classes, but obviously not identical to your view).

Clete: I don't understand what this sentence means. Please rephrase for me.



I bought the book because I am open to ideas that may be biblical, even if non-traditional. I am enjoying it and hoped it would live up to its claims (unifying theory).

Freak
February 7th, 2004, 08:08 AM
Well it appears after a few hundred responses, the anti-God does miracle camp, still refuses to deal with the Scriptural evidence for miracles. Instead, they would rather attack me personally (1Way) or talk about miracle stories (Clete) or change the topic of this thread to baptism (Dr.). :crackup: The reason is clear--they are incapable of dealing with the truth of God's objective truth--the Scriptures. :down:

I do give Clete some credit. He is investigating some miracles that occured in his hometown. It's sad however that this poster has refused to deal with the ultimate authority on this issue--the Bible. Clete, claims that physical evidence proves what God says is true. Jesus, who is God, stated, "Thy Word is truth." I believe Jesus and thereby don't need physical evidence. Jesus is the truth and speaks the truth--He says it, I believe it. Do you believe if Jesus says something is true, it's true regardless of physical evidence, Clete?

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

What physical evidence is there regarding this truth statement?

He has to answer these very important questions...

We are told miracles testify of the Lord Jesus and His salvation...

This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Here we are told God uses miracles for His purposes, yet you desire to do away with them. Bizarre...

The apostle John penned these words..

Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name.

It was because of people seeing the miracles that people "believed in His name."

Miracles glorify God, Clete. They do not dishonor Him. So, why in the world would you teach that miracles have disappeared when we are told in Scripture that miracles bring honor & glory to God? Flawed theology you have there, Clete.

People doubted Jesus raising from the dead. People doubt the inerrancy of Scripture. People, like yourself, like to doubt the things of God. This is not unusual. Yet, in Holy Scripture we are told...

...that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. Clete, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.

Clete, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this????

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

If Jesusí miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldnít they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Canít we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?

Clete
February 7th, 2004, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by Freak
Even if Jesus raised from the dead before your very own eyes you would still doubt. :(

Now who's the liar?

Freak
February 7th, 2004, 08:11 AM
Furthermore...
Under the New Covenant, the superior covenant, we are taught numerous times of the reality of spiritual gifts and miracles. In fact...

At least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

freelight
February 7th, 2004, 07:20 PM
Hi All,

It appears on this subject.........part of our own understanding and personal experience comes into play concerning the reality of miracles(of any degree). Within Christendom there are many sectors, branches that represent a diversity of qualitative experience of Gods grace; some choose to no longer believe in miracles because of their conditional teachings (theology, dispensationalism) - others choose to have faith and believe God for 'all' things ....as well as avail themselves of the charismas of the Spirit which God has anointed His church with. I choose to flow with the latter group who is open to Gods unlimited power and providence...while the former limits God.

Those of us who 'have the faith' to believe that God is still moving among His people in these dimensions shall have what our faith affords us. However, those of little or no faith will continue to be barren in the fruit of experience. 'According to your faith(or lack of) let it be to you'. Living faith puts no limits on the power of God in our midst and is alive in the dynamic of the Holy Spirit.

This whole subject of miracles(of any degree) comes down to ones evaluation of faiths power and the providence of God. So....ones experience and magnitude of faith will vary according to his attitude, theological perspective, faith community, teaching....and his ownreceptivity to the prompting of the Spirit. The individual and the community will often coordinate accordingly...so that each is an expression of the other in most cases. So our associations have much to with our religious temperments and spiritual experience allowances.




I was born and raised LDS - sought for God just before I was going to go on a mission - was led out of that system after high school....embraced orthodox christianity and the Jesus of the Bible...then had an awesome experience of being immersed in the Holy Spirit - experienced the charismas of the Spirit in various dimensions....gifts of healing, words of wisdom, insight, prophetic utterances, oracles, etc. At various point thru this experience and afterwards when I left that field of ministry....I studied metaphysics, mysticism, other branches of thought relative to Christianity but more into its esoteric aspects. The inner dimensions of consciousness and the power of the Spirit have always been hilights of my souls journey via intercourse with God.
When assisting a lady evangelist friend of mine in her prayer and healing meetings.....I will never deny the Spirits power and presence during those times....times of ministry and the Spirits anointing. She tried to stay away from the deliverance ministry and just stick with healing....BUT the Lord directed her and showed that often deliverance(of evil spirits) and healing go hand in hand - so I can vouch for and attest that indeed - many maladies and diseases are spirit-related, - not all of course. It takes wisdom, discernment and proper counseling to minister effectively to the sick(of mind and body). So....I do not discount the ministry of healing (which includes deliverance as necessary).....as a church without these aspects of ministry is impotent and not the church of Jesus Christ in her full power. Jesus gave his disciples instructions from heaven to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. That is the churchs commission. This is the power of the Christ - held by the Body of CHrist....who is Gods ANOINTED! (anointed with the Spirit-power from above to serve and minister to the needy). Even though I traverse more liberal grounds in my Spirit-journeys than some orthodox.....I would say that a full gospel style of ministry and spiritual life is much more in sync with the rhythm of the New Testament and my own sense of what I have tasted and sensed of the LIFE of God.

Part of blasphemying of the Holy Spirit is not only attributing the works of God as the works of the devil.....but also(to maybe a lesser dimension) the unbelief of doubting that God can do any miracles at all by His Spirit and thru the dynamics of faith active in the human soul - this borders near blasphemy and is still a sin...because it 'misses the mark' in its estimation of the power of God released thru faith among those who believe and put into practice the faith-teachings of the Lord Jesus. Theological teachings that limit the dynamics of faith and/or the Spirit in this day and age are incredulous, sinful, narrow and lacking in the full bountiful expression of the Living God who was, is and is to come - the Eternal I AM. So be careful....not only of blasphemy(of verying degrees) of the Spirit which Jesus speaks of....but the 'quenching' of the Spirit as well which Pauls speaks of. Jesus says to go in the power of the Spirit....and Paul says the same....but adds to never quench the Spirit. Therefore....any doctrinology that quenches the Spirit is sin (missing the mark).

Let God be God,....otherwise.....your disbelief serves none...including yourselves.




paul

LightSon
February 7th, 2004, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by freelight

Part of blasphemying of the Holy Spirit is not only attributing the works of God as the works of the devil.....but also(to maybe a lesser dimension) the unbelief of doubting that God can do any miracles at all by His Spirit and thru the dynamics of faith active in the human soul - this borders near blasphemy and is still a sin...because it 'misses the mark' in its estimation of the power of God released thru faith among those who believe and put into practice the faith-teachings of the Lord Jesus. Theological teachings that limit the dynamics of faith and/or the Spirit in this day and age are incredulous, sinful, narrow and lacking in the full bountiful expression of the Living God who was, is and is to come - the Eternal I AM. So be careful....not only of blasphemy(of verying degrees) of the Spirit which Jesus speaks of....but the 'quenching' of the Spirit as well which Pauls speaks of. Jesus says to go in the power of the Spirit....and Paul says the same....but adds to never quench the Spirit. Therefore....any doctrinology that quenches the Spirit is sin (missing the mark).

Let God be God,....otherwise.....your disbelief serves none...including yourselves.

Hey Paul,
The bolded emphasis in your quote is mine and is representative of a consistent theme in your objections. In my opinion it is a type of strawman and despite your normal keen analysis, tends to vitiate any application of your analysis to my perspective on miracles.

I've had a semblence of this conversation with Freak months ago. My public position is that God chooses not to manifest His power via "faith healers" during this time. It is not, as you assert, that I "[doubt] that God can do any miracles at all by His Spirit...". It is, rather, that I doubt that God chooses to do any miracles, at this time (or during this dispensation).

Can He? Yes.
Does He? Well.... I've never seen one.

Sure, I've seen folks get well in the hospital, and I've seen people dodge bullets and I've seen the wonder of a baby being born - all miracles. Right? Right.

And what about the new birth? Yes that is a miracle too. But for the sake of argument, let us make a distinction between these (covert/ambiguous) miracles, and the type of overt miracles performed in apostolic times. I have never seen a person come back to life after being dead three days. I've never seen a man "rise up and walk" before my eyes. I've never seen a man who was (physically) blind be made to see. If I were to seek after such a thing, we both know there are verses which can be used to shame me.

So I will not say that I seek such a thing. But if an overt miracle can be demonstrated to me, then perhaps you will get me to change my position. Again, I'm not seeking a sign. I'm just waiting to see one. It isn't that God can't show me one; it is that He has chosen not to, and for reasons that I would have to manufacture or otherwise guess at.

I can't believe the reason I haven't seen a miracle, is that I don't believe God chooses not to show me one. I've prayed to this end. "Dear Lord, please show me your power. Please reveal yourself to me in mighty and unmistakable ways." As a matter of fact, I have prayed for tongues. I'd probably be excommunicated for praying such a thing, but if there is any Spirit filled reality to tongues, I want it. I just don't believe that I should have to start babbling in order to receive the gift of tongues. The Spirit moves where He chooses.

I'd also be interested in hearing you expatiate about "charismas of the Spirit" that you have experienced. Were there any "overt" miracles there? That is did you see any manifestations of God's Spirit which could not be attributed to luck or explained away as scientific happenstance?

Yes, God has moved in my life, but only in "covert" ways, ways which always seem to carry the least bit of ambiguity. As someone said, "why do good things happen to bad people?" I've been freed from drugs. But lots of "lost" people have been freed from drugs. This is what I call a "covert" miracle.

Freak
February 7th, 2004, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by LightSon

It is, rather, that I doubt that God chooses to do any miracles, at this time (or during this dispensation). If that were true then why did God give His Body spiritual gifts that include the "gift of miracles." God desires for His church to walk in miracle power. In fact, the apostle Paul, at least six times, in his writings either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.


Does He? Well.... I've never seen one. As Godrulz pointed out the church is operating not in the Spirit but rather in the flesh. Do you think believers here in America are living the life of Jesus Christ--which includes the life of miracles? It seems that when the Body is persecuted, God's shows Himself in some unmistakeable ways. A study of the great revivals reveal this truth. So, this may explain why the church in America isn't seeing great miracles, because of unbelief and because of us being cold towards God.


And what about the new birth? Yes that is a miracle too. Yes, the greatest miracle of all.



But for the sake of argument, let us make a distinction between these (covert/ambiguous) miracles, and the type of overt miracles performed in apostolic times. I have never seen a person come back to life after being dead three days. I've never seen a man "rise up and walk" before my eyes. I've never seen a man who was (physically) blind be made to see. I have never witnessed any of those miracles but have witnessed hundreds of people being delivered from evil spirits. This is a apostolic miracle, see Mark 9. I have seen many healed instantly of diseases, severe pain, and of tumors. Then of course I have seen many healed emotionally. My wife, my sister-in-law, my sister have all been healed. My sister-in-law was delivered supernaturally from 59 evil spirits. My wife and I spent 8 hours dealing with all of them. Praise God!


But if an overt miracle can be demonstrated to me, then perhaps you will get me to change my position. Again, I'm not seeking a sign. I'm just waiting to see one. It isn't that God can't show me one; it is that He has chosen not to, and for reasons that I would have to manufacture or otherwise guess at. God is in control. He does as He wishes.


As a matter of fact, I have prayed for tongues. I'd probably be excommunicated for praying such a thing, but if there is any Spirit filled reality to tongues, I want it. Excommunicated? Really? Why? Paul spoke in tongues and wished others would. Jesus, however, never spoke in tongues. I have never spoke in tongues but have been open but God has chosen not to give me that gift.


I just don't believe that I should have to start babbling in order to receive the gift of tongues. The Spirit moves where He chooses. I agree.


I've been freed from drugs. But lots of "lost" people have been freed from drugs. This is what I call a "covert" miracle. That is indeed a miracle. :thumb:

freelight
February 7th, 2004, 11:07 PM
Originally posted by LightSon

Hey Paul,
The bolded emphasis in your quote is mine and is representative of a consistent theme in your objections. In my opinion it is a type of strawman and despite your normal keen analysis, tends to vitiate any application of your analysis to my perspective on miracles.

I've had a semblence of this conversation with Freak months ago. My public position is that God chooses not to manifest His power via "faith healers" during this time. It is not, as you assert, that I "[doubt] that God can do any miracles at all by His Spirit...". It is, rather, that I doubt that God chooses to do any miracles, at this time (or during this dispensation).

Can He? Yes.
Does He? Well.... I've never seen one.

Sure, I've seen folks get well in the hospital, and I've seen people dodge bullets and I've seen the wonder of a baby being born - all miracles. Right? Right.

And what about the new birth? Yes that is a miracle too. But for the sake of argument, let us make a distinction between these (covert/ambiguous) miracles, and the type of overt miracles performed in apostolic times. I have never seen a person come back to life after being dead three days. I've never seen a man "rise up and walk" before my eyes. I've never seen a man who was (physically) blind be made to see. If I were to seek after such a thing, we both know there are verses which can be used to shame me.

So I will not say that I seek such a thing. But if an overt miracle can be demonstrated to me, then perhaps you will get me to change my position. Again, I'm not seeking a sign. I'm just waiting to see one. It isn't that God can't show me one; it is that He has chosen not to, and for reasons that I would have to manufacture or otherwise guess at.

I can't believe the reason I haven't seen a miracle, is that I don't believe God chooses not to show me one. I've prayed to this end. "Dear Lord, please show me your power. Please reveal yourself to me in mighty and unmistakable ways." As a matter of fact, I have prayed for tongues. I'd probably be excommunicated for praying such a thing, but if there is any Spirit filled reality to tongues, I want it. I just don't believe that I should have to start babbling in order to receive the gift of tongues. The Spirit moves where He chooses.

I'd also be interested in hearing you expatiate about "charismas of the Spirit" that you have experienced. Were there any "overt" miracles there? That is did you see any manifestations of God's Spirit which could not be attributed to luck or explained away as scientific happenstance?

Yes, God has moved in my life, but only in "covert" ways, ways which always seem to carry the least bit of ambiguity. As someone said, "why do good things happen to bad people?" I've been freed from drugs. But lots of "lost" people have been freed from drugs. This is what I call a "covert" miracle.



)============= Hi LS,

What I have experienced is more in the spiritual dimension - spiritual healing...which does affect the soul and body - in a wholistic dynamic. I have been carried by the Spirit and used in the gifts of healing(these may be ministered on many levels of being) as the anointing comes upon me to minister to others - thru prayer, laying on of hands, blessings, etc. I have not personally witnessed profound or creative miracles....but in the spiritual dimension I know when things are transpiring spiritually during these times thru faith and spirit-sensitivity. The realm of our consciousness when it becomes one or merges with divine Consciousness is what I am taking about. To me...in this realm is where the fullness of God exists in all actualities and all potentialities....and certain levels of this divine Reality can be accessed, drawn into 'actuality' by the dynamic of faith....the same substance of consciousness whereby God himself made and framed the manifest universe. There are laws of mind and spirit relative to the exercise of faith that govern and mediate these frequencies.

Since I have opened myself up spiritually and experienced enough of this dimension....for me it is real....and such inspires and bears witness to me even more that Gods all-encompassing Reality is the Sole preeminence - He is the Supreme. I see the wonder and glory of God as INFINITY ever before me - the essence of eternal Life...the only REAL ground of Being there IS!
The All in all. I sometimes like to take this into the pure metaphysics of Being - where one assumes the Allness of God depsite anything else as the one and only Reality Being. A pioneer teacher in this field of teachings on the Absolute is Alfred Aiken. Other teachers within this field of teaching are Joel S. Goldsmith(Infinite Way teachings), Ernest Holmes (Science of Mind), Charles Fillmore(Unity), and Thomas Troward(and others).

I am on a spiritual journey as we are all. I find wonder in the diversity within the Unity of the One Spirit. God is ONE. I anchor there in that primal truth....for it is quite stable to me. The ONE.
:)

I have shared my views here amply about faith and the power of God as being unlimited as far as I'm concerned. Jesus puts no limits on the power of faith to save or make one whole or any other worthy desire that is in accord to the Will of God - he encourages it..and even says one can have what they say. There is an element of faith that some are not grasping because they have not exercised or come into the revelation of faith thru a living experience. - so to them......such things surely do not exist. I brought up that ones faith and experience condition his attitudes. These are not straw men (whatever those are)...but real perspectives.

An awesome journey is the souls who venture into the Unknown of God....to bring forth the gnosis of enlightenment and prepare their hearts for the birth of the Christ.....who endeavor the mysteries of the kingdom for the sake of Love.


paul

godrulz
February 7th, 2004, 11:56 PM
It is presumptious, ignorant, and arrogant to think that because YOU have not personally had a miracle, that the thousands who have must be off their rocker. The evidence is out there. Your limited sphere of knowledge should not be the deciding factor.

Clete
February 8th, 2004, 09:34 AM
Originally posted by Freak

Well it appears after a few hundred responses, the anti-God does miracle camp, still refuses to deal with the Scriptural evidence for miracles. Instead, they would rather attack me personally (1Way) or talk about miracle stories (Clete) or change the topic of this thread to baptism (Dr.). :crackup: The reason is clear--they are incapable of dealing with the truth of God's objective truth--the Scriptures. :down:

I do give Clete some credit. He is investigating some miracles that occured in his hometown. It's sad however that this poster has refused to deal with the ultimate authority on this issue--the Bible. Clete, claims that physical evidence proves what God says is true. Jesus, who is God, stated, "Thy Word is truth." I believe Jesus and thereby don't need physical evidence. Jesus is the truth and speaks the truth--He says it, I believe it. Do you believe if Jesus says something is true, it's true regardless of physical evidence, Clete?

Freak,

This is your final warning!
If you say something of this nature one more time then it will be the last time I even read a post on this thread.
I have said before and I say it one LAST time that I believe what I believe about miracles based on perfectly legitimate Biblical reasoning. I am, however, debating this issue with you from a different perspective because our apposing views on the subject demand quite different things to be PHYSICALLY happening. Therefore, if you are unable to show that the necessary PHYSICAL activity is in fact happening then your Biblical position falls apart. And since we are interested in objective truth, then anecdotal stories are not good enough because we both know how easy it is for people to be convinced of almost anything, especially when they have very deep seated emotional reasons for wanting something to be true. What we need then is objectively verifiable physical evidence that supports your Biblical position. If none exist then your Biblical position is wrong. I don't care how well argued, I don't care how many proof texts, it doesn't matter. The fact is that the Bible does not contradict reality. If physical miracles are happening today then there will be physical evidence of such miracles, if they are not then that evidence will be absent and if they are not happen then the Bible will not be found to contradict that fact. Any argument to the contrary must be flawed or the Bible itself would be shown to be untrue.

Now Freak, if that is not clear enough for you then you are simply too stupid for me to waste my time with. If you wish to be intellectually honest from this point on then I will be happy to continue with you. However, if you continue with such characterizations of my position then I will assume that you are either incredibly idiotic or a liar (in the case of being a liar you would also prove yourself to be a hypocrite). Either way, I will end my participation in this conversation.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

Clete
February 8th, 2004, 10:31 AM
If any of you have not read the story Freak posted for me to investigate as a verifiable miracle, I post the meat of the story here for you to read so that everyone knows what we are dealing with.
I will attach a link to the title so that you can see it on Mr. Gunn's own web site if you wish...


Pastor Nathan Gunn's Personal Testimony (http://www.jesusbooth.com/nathan.htm)

"I was born and raised in a small town named Ada in Oklahoma. I attended church as a youngster and continued all through high school. At the tender age of 10, I invited Jesus Christ into my heart. At the age of 17, at the beginning of my senior year in high school, a significant event happened to me that changed my life forever. One day, while fooling around on the rooftop where I was employed, I came into contact with 12,500 volts of electricity. It knocked me off the building. I dropped two and one-half stories landing on my head. Unfortunately, the impact of the fall crushed my face and skull.

I lay on the ground for about 20 minutes before an ambulance arrived. They drove me to the local hospital, but they were not equipped to treat my injuries. They transported me by helicopter up to Oklahoma City, which was 100 miles away. The nurses and medical staff on duty all believed I would not survive the injuries. Later one of the nurses, a family friend, conveyed this information to my family. To give you an idea of how serious my injuries were my mother was called in to the hospital room to identify me. She did not recognize me. She said, "This is not my son." This was due to the trauma to my face and skull. A moment later, she finally recognized me by the shoes I was wearing.

In the meantime, when word of my accident reached the people of my town, the church body began to pray for me. Everyone in my church community rallied together in prayer. They set up shifts and prayed throughout the night. One of the ladies in my church recalled, the Holy Spirit revealed to her that I had been healed. At that same moment, in mid-flight to the hospital, I quit screaming and moaning.

I arrived at the hospital and the doctors immediately began exploratory surgery to determine the extent of the burn wounds to the inside of my body. They could see that the electricity had caused an entrance and exit wound. It had entered through my left hand and exited through my right hip. The doctors believed it must have passed through the vital organs at least once. Typically electricity will bounce around inside the human body until it finds an exit. After examining me, the doctors determined that there was no pathway for the electricity inside my body! I had an entrance and an exit wound caused by the electricity, but there was no electrical pathway inside my body. That is an incredible miracle! They stitched me up and prepared to treat me for my impact wounds. Some of my organs were bleeding due to the impact of the fall and two-thirds of my upper body had third degree burns from the flash of electricity. The burns began healing right away without medical intervention. In about 10 days my skin was healed. After 10 days they reconstructed my skull, face and crushed forehead. One of my eyes had been moved out of place. During a 12-hour operation, the surgeons removed splinter bones and wired together the shattered bones in my face and skull. After surgery they told me I would not have a sense of taste or smell due to the injuries I sustained.

To make a long story short, within 3 weeks, I walked out of the hospital with perfect 20/20 vision; I had my sense of taste and smell. My kneecap was shattered. I had a cast on my leg. My head was shaved, with a barely noticeable surgery scar on my hairline and under my eye. What a gift from God, I was alive and did not have brain damage, I healed quickly and I did not have to go back for any follow up surgeries. The only lasting problems I have are a little pain in my knee and some scars."

Look Freak if I'm going to investigate the veracity of a physical miracle then you might want to supply me with something that can in fact be called a bona fide miracle.
This may be a very fascinating and incredible medical story but it doesn't qualify as an act of God. Now if this guyís eye ball had been in a plastic bag on the way to the hospital and then he walked away with 20/20 vision then that would be a good one. But the fact that this guy walked away from this only proves that he had skilled doctors!
"Lasting problems"? Come on! What sort of God do you serve, Freak? If God wanted to perform a miracle here, why do it in such a behind the sceans sort of way? If he was healed in the helicopter on the way to OKC then why were the doctors needed to reconstruct his face? Why would God play pick a boo with a miracle? Wouldn't it have been more consistent with Biblical type miracles for the nurses and pilots on the helicopter to have been astonished that the man they took off with is now just fine and sitting up talking with everybody as they land on the hospitals roof?
This story is no different than every other "modern miracle" that I've ever heard of. If the injury is visible or in some other way obvious then the healing occurs over some period of time, sometimes shorter than expected and sometimes not, but never instantaneously. If the injury is either internal or in some other way invisible then thatís the only time you ever get reports of instantaneous healings and then only when the injury is utterly unconformable to have ever existed in the first place. This story is interesting in that Mr. Gunn was creative enough to have included both types of unconfirmable miralces in one story!

Feel free to try again Freak. This one was so easy to debunk that a phone call wasn't even necessary. Mr. Gunnís own testimony never presented a miracle that needed confirming in the first place! If I had realized that it was going to be this easy I would have dove in on it several days ago!

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

godrulz
February 8th, 2004, 10:35 AM
Clete: You cried wolf many posts ago and said you were done here. Personally, I would like your views to continue. It seems everyone is arguing in circles. I think your demand for physical evidence is a bit flawed, especially since it is out there (I follow many credible ministries, not all charismatic, that report blatant miracles on the mission field...in my circles, it is not an issue since there is no doubt the miracles happen...you seem to think it is impossible that God has done even one miracle in the world lately due to your desire to retain your theology at all costs....apart from evidence or Scripture, your position is absurd and limits the sovereigty of God. I still do not understand why God would stop doing miracles...if it has something to do with dispensations, then your understanding is TOO extreme...as would us saying miracles and healings are daily events for every believer).

Acts 1:1 "...I wrote about all that Jesus BEGAN to do and to teach..."

The canon is closed, but the Book of Acts (the history of the Church) is still being written in heaven and earth.

"You know, Jesus never was a 'has-benn'. People talk about HIm and say things like 'in His day'... as though He is not able to do the same TODAY. His day is now and forever. No circumstandces affect Him. Time and distance does not change His attitude. He is the same wonder-working Jesus today. Acts 1:1 tells us that the work He did He had ONLY BEGUN!"

- Bonnke

There is a reason Reinhard Bonnke was called by God to reach the continent of Africa. He had mission, vision, faith, and anointing to see the lame walk, the blind see, the deaf hear (docmented miracles at his crusades). Millions of Africans will be in the kingdom because of the preaching of the Gospel with signs following to set people free and make them whole. The love and power of God. The reason your church does not see these things (vs Assemblies of God, etc.) is due to bad theology leading to unbelief and the quenching and grieving of the Spirit.

Perhaps someone you know will need God's intervention. In His mercy and grace, I pray that He demonstrates Himself for His glory and your good. I know you are smart, and I am sure you would revisit your theology. Incidently, my wife has MS and is not being healed by God and may never be healed. This does not change my experience and convictions based on my relationship with God and knowledge of His Word.

Clete
February 8th, 2004, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by godrulz

Clete: You cried wolf many posts ago and said you were done here.
I wasn't crying wolf, although I understand why you say this. I had fully intended to be done with this last week but it's amazing how much a POTD motivates one to continue.


Personally, I would like your views to continue.
I appreciate you saying so but you'll have to speak with Freak about it. It will be up to him.


It seems everyone is arguing in circles.
So much so that I'm going nuts!


I think your demand for physical evidence is a bit flawed, especially since it is out there (I follow many credible ministries, not all charismatic, that report blatant miracles on the mission field
So what? There are lots of otherwise credible people who claim that UFO's have landed in their back yard and taken them to other worlds and done experiments on them and such. Do you believe these things have happened as well?
Further, Thomas was shown physical evidence when he demanded it. And before you start calling me a doubting Thomas, keep in mind that my demand for physical evidence is only my debating tactic not my basis for what I do or do not beleive.


...in my circles, it is not an issue since there is no doubt the miracles happen...you seem to think it is impossible that God has done even one miracle in the world lately due to your desire to retain your theology at all costs
This has never been true of me. I used to argue with my Sunday School teachers when I was in 6th grade, insisting that what they taught was not consistent with what the Bible said and I was usually (although not always) right! If you have a problem with my position then show me were the flaw is otherwise simply saying that it's flawed doesn't get us anywhere.
Further, there is plenty of doubt that miracles happen and I do not think that it is "impossible" for God to have done anything. A belief that God is not doing something is not the same as believing that He cannot do it at all. That's the strength of my position! It is falsifiable. If you can demonstrate that modern physical miracles are happening then it is my Biblical position that needs modification. The fact that you cannot shows that it is you who are turning a blind eye to a total lack of cooberating evidence in order to maintain a theological position at any cost


....apart from evidence or Scripture, your position is absurd and limits the sovereignty of God.
It is you that lacks evidence not me. If miracles are happening as you say then show me the evidence.


I still do not understand why God would stop doing miracles...if it has something to do with dispensations, then your understanding is TOO extreme...as would us saying miracles and healings are daily events for every believer).
We've already discussed why, although it is in fact a separate issue. The reason why God is not performing miracles is because of the track record they have of turning a tiny minority of people to God and causing the vast majority of people who witness such miracles to harden their hearts and hate God even more than they did before God performed the miracle in the first place. In short, God is not performing miracles because He loves us and doesn't want us to end up in hell!


Perhaps someone you know will need God's intervention. In His mercy and grace, I pray that He demonstrates Himself for His glory and your good. I know you are smart, and I am sure you would revisit your theology. Incidentally, my wife has MS and is not being healed by God and may never be healed. This does not change my experience and convictions based on my relationship with God and knowledge of His Word.
Your wife has so much more of an opportunity to grow in her faith (as do you) without a physical miracle that it can hardly be overstated. Remember always what God said to Paul when he asked for a physical healing. "My Grace is sufficient for you."

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

godrulz
February 8th, 2004, 12:38 PM
I agree that God's grace is sufficient and character can be built. Catholics are strong on accepting suffering as meritorious/virtuous (Christ suffered) and the will of God. This is quite Calvinistic/fatalistic. Can I remind you that you are an Open Theist who believes in an open creation? It should not surprise you that God may still want to intervene supernaturally. By your reasoning (miracles will harden us and send us to hell), God should withdraw the preaching of the Gospel, since rejection of it results in hell. The evidence I know of from ministries is that far more people come to Christ with miracles/healings than are turned away or have doubt created in their minds. The minority who hate God in the face of miracles is not a sufficient reason to argue against miracles in light of the multitudes who are positively impacted.


www.cfan.org

The millions of people you see hearing the Gospel on this sight are often at the crusades because word gets out that the risen Christ is doing what he did 2000 years ago (he is alive and meeting needs, validating the man of God and his message). Unlike you, these poor Africans know the spiritual realm as they are oppressed and bound by sin, sickness, and Satan. They need a Gospel with power to set them free, not a packaged theology that leaves them in bondage with more head knowledge explaining away the ways and wonders of the Living God.

Thomas was not rebuked for doubting. God can handle sincere doubt that is not mere agnostic skepticism. Your attitude seems more worthy of an atheist, so I hope you find the evidence you need. There are counterfeits and flakiness in this area, but there will be irrefutable evidence if you keep looking (UFOs are not in the same category as divine miracles; there is evidence for Satan doing supernatural things in our day...surely our enemy is not greater than God in his strategy and ability).

Peter Youngren www.peteryoungren.org is another ministry that routinely sees the miraculous as the Gospel is preached here and oversees.

John Wimber (deceased...Vineyard) and Peter Wagner (missiologist) (conservative seminary-trained evangelicals at one time) also build a Scriptural case with numerous confirmations of the relation between preaching the Gospel and signs/wonders/healings/deliverance.

Clete
February 8th, 2004, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by godrulz

I agree that God's grace is sufficient and character can be built. Catholics are strong on accepting suffering as meritorious/virtuous (Christ suffered) and the will of God. This is quite Calvinistic/fatalistic. Can I remind you that you are an Open Theist who believes in an open creation? It should not surprise you that God may still want to intervene supernaturally.
My position is not antithetical to Open Theism. Indeed, quite the reverse. It is the Calvinist who would argue that for God to stop performing physical miracles would be a change and therefore could not be the case. I as an Open Theist plainly declare the reverse.


By your reasoning (miracles will harden us and send us to hell), God should withdraw the preaching of the Gospel, since rejection of it results in hell.
Please donít play word games with me. Itís beneath you to stoop to Freakís mode of debate.
Faith is required for salvation and it is faith that is circumvented when positive proof is placed before your eyes in the form of physical miracles


The evidence I know of from ministries is that far more people come to Christ with miracles/healings than are turned away or have doubt created in their minds. The minority who hate God in the face of miracles is not a sufficient reason to argue against miracles in light of the multitudes who are positively impacted.
Without realizing it, you have argued against yourself. The Biblical evidence is quite the reverse. False miracles cause people to believe whatever the miracle performer says. It is only when genuine miracles occur that people get so angry at the prophet that they start to through stones at him or in the case of Jesus hang Him on a cross (The Plot goes into exhaustive detail on this particular aspect of our debate). So the fact that hundreds or thousands of people come clamoring to see the miracle man in action is evidence that he is a fraud. And by the way, so is the complete lack of verifiable physical evidence that any one of these thousands of miracles actually took place. Not to mention that these miracle performers never go to the local hospital and empty the place or anything like that. Itís always and only after the offering plate has been passed that the miracles start happening.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

godrulz
February 8th, 2004, 06:11 PM
Why so cynical bro.? Jesus did not empty the leper colonies either (these guys don't empty hospitals...so?). No one said that miracles have to occur 100% of the time and be of a profound magnitude to be valid.

Christian evangelists with signs following have something the charlatons or demonically inspired wonder workers do not have. They see the miracles done in the NAME OF JESUS and preach the WORD OF GOD (not themselves). God is glorified and people are edified. You are dismissing profound and powerful ministries out of ignorance. I also recognize the showmen, but this does not invalidate the good ones.

Freak
February 8th, 2004, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Freak,
This is your final warning! Look, Clete, these juvenille games from you is tiresome. These warnings make you look like a cry baby. "Give me back my ball, I'm going home." Stop pouting.


I have said before and I say it one LAST time that I believe what I believe about miracles based on perfectly legitimate Biblical reasoning. This is a lie that you have believed in for some time now. I'm sorry you have rejected the New Covenant. I hope one day your heart will be open to receiving the New Covenant's teachings on this subject.

Let's start with some basics, Clete. Biblical basics you have not dealt with...

From Scripture we know that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. Clete, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.

Clete, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). You are seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

The "supernatural" gifts were not just the possession of the apostles in the Bible. Other non-apostles also were given supernatural gifts by the Spirit. (Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13). Were you aware of this????

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

If Jesusí miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldnít they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Canít we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?


I am, however, debating this issue with you from a different perspective because our apposing views on the subject demand quite different things to be PHYSICALLY happening. This completey flies in the face of Biblical thought. Clete, claims that physical evidence proves what God says is true or His miracles are true.. Jesus, who is God, stated, "Thy Word is truth." I believe Jesus and thereby don't need physical evidence. Jesus is the truth and speaks the truth--He says it, I believe it. Do you believe if Jesus says something is true, it's true regardless of physical evidence, Clete?

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

What physical evidence is there regarding this truth statement?


Therefore, if you are unable to show that the necessary PHYSICAL activity is in fact happening then your Biblical position falls apart. I'll prove how faulty this statement with this:

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

What physical evidence is there regarding this truth statement? Just because you haven't seen any physical evidence of this, it is true nevertheless, because Jesus said it was true. Same with miracles. Jesus said that miracles occur. Clase close. Jesus speaks truth and I believe it.


And since we are interested in objective truth, then anecdotal stories are not good enough because we both know how easy it is for people to be convinced of almost anything, especially when they have very deep seated emotional reasons for wanting something to be true. Case in point--you. You have been duped to believe miracles don't occur. We know the Scriptures didn't lead you to this conclusion. So it would be safe to say the Enyart materials led you to believe this.


What we need then is objectively verifiable physical evidence that supports your Biblical position. Since when did this become a litmus test for doctrine? We believe God is triune in nature because the Bible says it's true not because there is physical evidence that points to that reality.


If none exist then your Biblical position is wrong. Your wasting my time at this point. Because the Scriptures speak of the reality of miracles, I believe it. I don't need physical evidence. The words of Jesus is enough for me to believe.


If physical miracles are happening today then there will be physical evidence of such miracles, if they are not then that evidence will be absent and if they are not happen then the Bible will not be found to contradict that fact. Ah! I trust God's Word for obejctive truth not physical evidence. Did Jesus ever say, "Thy physical evidence is truth." Or did He say, "Thy Word is truth."

Here is another example of a physical healing:

In July 2003 Pastor Kevin joined with Pastor Bill Reeder of Lakeland Florida for several days of ministry in the area of Guatemala City, Guatemala South America.

Their friend Pastor Mike Black who is a full time missionary in that area and the people of the area hosted them for a "Domingo de Milagros" or "Miracle Sunday" as we would call it. The people were ready to recieve and there were many miracles and instantly verifiable healings. Many more received healing that only doctor's tests would confirm and many were delivered from various bondages.

These verifiable healings can be attained here: To contact the church you may either email us at office@covenantwordchurch.org or write us at:

Covenant Word Church
PO Box 773
Key West, FL 33041

I'm sure you'll say but "Jay, these people are in Key West, I can't verify anyone in Key West because they live in South Florida and those live there can't be healed because they live too close to the beach." Your absurdity is annoying.


Now Freak, if that is not clear enough for you then you are simply too stupid for me to waste my time with. If you wish to be intellectually honest from this point on then I will be happy to continue with you. This coming from a man who believes this: What we need then is objectively verifiable physical evidence that supports your Biblical position.

Since when did this become a litmus test for doctrine? We believe God is triune in nature because the Bible says it's true not because there is physical evidence that points to that reality. We believe miracles are for today because Jesus tells us so not because of some physical evidence. :kookoo: :kookoo:

Freak
February 8th, 2004, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by godrulz

Why so cynical bro.? Jesus did not empty the leper colonies either (these guys don't empty hospitals...so?). No one said that miracles have to occur 100% of the time and be of a profound magnitude to be valid.

Christian evangelists with signs following have something the charlatons or demonically inspired wonder workers do not have. They see the miracles done in the NAME OF JESUS and preach the WORD OF GOD (not themselves). God is glorified and people are edified. You are dismissing profound and powerful ministries out of ignorance. I also recognize the showmen, but this does not invalidate the good ones. :thumb:

Freak
February 8th, 2004, 08:44 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

In short, God is not performing miracles because He loves us and doesn't want us to end up in hell!
Strange, flawed, and unBiblical.

God performs miracle to testify, to confirm His glory, His salvation...

...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Because He loves us He reaches out and performs miracles...

Lord," they answered, "we want our sight."
Jesus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed him.

When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

Clete, trust the Scriptures and not your emotions when dealing with this issue of miracles...

godrulz
February 8th, 2004, 08:53 PM
I must admit that was one of the most indefensible statements the normally coherent and brilliant Clete has come up with:confused:

Freak: If you have the time, it would be good to include your excellent Bible reference (s) so they can check it in context (to feel its authority and clarity). The Word is clear as a bell; their twisting of ideas is confusing.

Clete
February 9th, 2004, 07:25 AM
Originally posted by godrulz

I must admit that was one of the most indefensible statements the normally coherent and brilliant Clete has come up with:confused:

My statement was not made in a vacuum. It's context preceded it.
"We've already discussed why, although it is in fact a separate issue. The reason why God is not performing miracles is because of the track record they have of turning a tiny minority of people to God and causing the vast majority of people who witness such miracles to harden their hearts and hate God even more than they did before God performed the miracle in the first place. In short, God is not performing miracles because He loves us and doesn't want us to end up in hell!"

The Plot as you guys have either claimed to have already read or are currently reading goes into almost painfully exhaustive detail on this issue, listing every miracle or set of miracles in the entire Bible and the accompanying results.

I for one am exceedingly glad that God is wise and loving enough to have kicked the crutch of miracles out from under the Body of Christ thereby allowing us to have the need of relying totally on His Grace. Without such need spiritual growth is impossible.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

godrulz
February 9th, 2004, 09:38 AM
Given the comparative rarity of miracles, could it not be a both/and vs either/or scenari? i.e. we do primarily walk by faith and rely on grace, but this does not have to be at the expense of miracles for unbelievers confirming the Word (I think it is anecdotal to say that the majority of miracles will lead to unbelief...some witnesses will believe, and some will not...look at how many Catholics buy into Marian miracles or Satanists, etc.) or tokens of God's love and grace for believers = healings). Is it an argument from silence to conclude that Scripture records incidents of unbelief following miracles (does not mean there are not other cases where it did lead to faith...maybe not as many of these were recorded, though they happened? Freak has given verses that show belief resulted from miracles...it is a logical fallacy to make a generalization from a subset of all relevant information, while ignoring the other side of the coin).

Would ONE modern, documented, verifiable miracle done in the name of Jesus undermine your view or do we need thousands of a great magnitude and frequency?

Clete
February 9th, 2004, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by godrulz

Given the comparative rarity of miracles, could it not be a both/and vs either/or scenari? i.e. we do primarily walk by faith and rely on grace, but this does not have to be at the expense of miracles for unbelievers confirming the Word (I think it is anecdotal to say that the majority of miracles will lead to unbelief...some witnesses will believe, and some will not...look at how many Catholics buy into Marian miracles or Satanists, etc.) or tokens of God's love and grace for believers = healings). Is it an argument from silence to conclude that Scripture records incidents of unbelief following miracles (does not mean there are not other cases where it did lead to faith...maybe not as many of these were recorded, though they happened? Freak has given verses that show belief resulted from miracles...it is a logical fallacy to make a generalization from a subset of all relevant information, while ignoring the other side of the coin).
There are over 300 miracles or groups of miracles in the Bible. The result of each is gone over one by one in The Plot. Some reaction was positive and when it was that is acknowledged, but the general/normal reaction was overwhelmingly negative. This is not arguing from silence at all. We are looking at the single largest collection of recorded miracles that exists and are specifically told what the results of those miracles were.


Would ONE modern, documented, verifiable miracle done in the name of Jesus undermine your view or do we need thousands of a great magnitude and frequency?
My immediate reaction to this question is that depends on the miracle. I tend to think that even one confirmed physical miracle would at minimum put a dent in my theological construct but frankly I can't really say for sure as I have yet to come across one. I honestly do not know what effect it would have if any. So lets get across the first bridge before we try crossing another.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

P.S. I would like to take a quick moment to thank you Godrulz for your intellectual honesty and respectful tone. Even if we never come to an agreement on this issue, at least I can know in advance that we will continue to respect one another well after this debate if over and forgotten about.
And please rest assured that this is a genuinely heart felt statement and that I'm not trying to be passively aggressive toward Freak. If I wanted to be aggressive toward Freak I wouldn't be and haven't been passive about it.
May God bless you and yours!

freelight
February 9th, 2004, 01:47 PM
Resting and/or relying upon Gods grace includes the exercise of a faith that trusts wholly in God. It is a living faith that draws the reality of Gods sustaining power - this power is inherently unlimited in its divine potential and relative in its access and/or experience in the life of a believer according to the degree/quality of his/her faith.

There are cases where it appears that prayers for healing or other divine interventions are not answered and only God knows the unique dimensional factors that govern each case. However, this does not negate the law of faith which is active in human consciousness - the same realm of substantive power thru which all creation/manifestation ensues. If faith had its potency to effect, enhance, alter, modify, transcend natural laws in Jesus day......how much more shall we who have the Holy Spirit....exercise an effectual faith in Gods supernal power and presence which is ever in our midst.

All acquirements and enjoyments of God are experienced and received thru the medium of faith(at least this is Gods pleasure). To reason that one can have faith for the miracle of soul salvation, regeneration, conversion, etc........but CANT have faith that God can do miracles in all dimensions and levels of being.....is inconsistent. Since one may have put such limitations upon faith....this is all he will receive - it will according to his faith(of whatever degree or lack thereof). God will be whatever or whoever He wills to be to His people. He is the 'Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh' (I AM/I Will Be). The full exercise and unlimited potential of faith is left open in the scriptures furthermore being attested to by the Christ in his teaching.

It is more consistent to go with what Christ taught than what men and their theologies are teaching. Faith is a very personal matter and it generation in the soul is a precious thing - a divine pleasure and partnership of co-creation. All covenants are kept and sustained by faith. Again, we do not fully understand why in some cases it would appear that faith does not avail in certain cirumstances......however this never permits the ones believing to give up, lessen or abandon their faith...or that faith has lost its power in the sight of God. Faith is ever essential in the spirit/soul of man in his intercourse with God. No matter what appears in this mortality as its frailty and imperfections....Gods ever-Perfect Reality and divine presence is ever WHOLE....and Radiant - He is the ONE and ONLY wherein we have our existence, life, being. So indeed, in all things resting, trusting in His grace is all we can do for He is our divine Father. The exercise of faith for the All of God is included in this resting in His grace...wherein is All sufficiency. If we are abiding in God.....then we have NOW all of Gods sufficiency. Do we not? To arouse and stimulate the full pleasure of God....we must have faith. Faith in the All-sufficiency, power, providence and sustaining Reality of Deity - the divine WHOLE(ONE) who is the All in all. From a faith standpoint....exercise of faith in the ONE is essential for All. From a metaphysical perspective if we assume God is All or the All....then we have as a premise of our faith....that Gods perfection is the only Reality as sustaining our very being - for in truth there is only divine Being(God). Therefore all 'appearances' of something other than God are just that - appearances - but we we do not walk by sight - but by faith. let the readers discern.


Resting in His grace is resting in His sufficiency - in this sufficiency is allready Perfect Everything. Faith accepts that resting in Him is resting in His divine Being - the very source/substanace that supports your being! In this life....we may suffer some things and thru it all....of course grace is there to sustain. However I would not put a restraint on my faith nonetheless....but rest in His divine power. I know you would agree that you do. But I believe a greater power resides within the faith of God (as exercised within the human heart)...to bring forth miracles(in all dimensions)...and that this faith in Gods unlimited power/potential should ever be sustained while upon the earth.

Life is a miracle and each moment is potent with Lifes substance.
This is the insight that I have hoped to share with the board - believe it or not. :)

I do not close the door on faith or the power of God....but let it be fully open! My God is awesome.....in his primacy, ultimacy, eternality and infinity! This is the kind of faith that pleases the Master.


In His substance,


paul

godrulz
February 9th, 2004, 02:05 PM
Freelight...do you know anything about 'essentialism'?

As a reminder, there is a difference between faith and presumption. There is a difference between faith as a formula/force, or an expression of trust flowing from relationship with God. Faith is only as good as the object we put our faith in (faith in a counterfeit or inert object will not be efficacious).

Will He find faith on the earth when He comes? I want to be counted with those who know their God and do exploits in His name (Daniel).

freelight
February 9th, 2004, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by godrulz

Freelight...do you know anything about 'essentialism'?

As a reminder, there is a difference between faith and presumption. There is a difference between faith as a formula/force, or an expression of trust flowing from relationship with God. Faith is only as good as the object we put our faith in (faith in a counterfeit or inert object will not be efficacious).

Will He find faith on the earth when He comes? I want to be counted with those who know their God and do exploits in His name (Daniel).


)==========Hi GR,.............my posts stand as they do - let each reader take what he can. Truth is its own witness. Not familiar with what you mean by 'essentialism'. Also....I have consistingly upheld faith as a generation of God within the consciousness of Man - not presumption.

I hinted slightly upon other metaphysical systems of thought that do assume that God is Perfect Everything...and that He being the essence, totality and substance of Being is the only Being being! - The All - the Only Reality. Therefore there is only Love, Power, Light, Truth, Wisdom, Perfection. This is viewing God in His totality, primacy, ultimacy, universality, as SPIRIT - the only Mind - the only Being being! THere is no other. No other! Only those who have studied these higher aspects of metaphysics and the relative schools might apprenend these aspects.

But back to faith in the arena we are specifying.....your repeating what I have been saying. I place no limits on the faith of God active in the human spirit/soul. This is the dynamic of creation - laws of creative power. Faith may have limits within the capacities of mortal constraints....but I see nowhere where Jesus places a restraint or limit on faith...and encourages the us to exercise faith to its full potential - in abundance! - as far as that potential may extend. You get what you believe for - you can have what you say - as you think...so are you. These dynamics of consciousness are inherent laws within mind and spirit. Thats my point. Take it or leave it.

*I'm not teaching one to have faith in faith as it were a seperate thing apart from the substance-grant of God. Faith is always IN GOD. IN God....is where all the vitalities of life abide - the potencies of creation, existence, being - the power to call forth. Faith in always in the divine Being, Intelligence and Soul of the living God. For those who have not faith...and have a limited knowledge of this substance.....they shall have what their faith or lack of affords them. Each will have what they will have...or will to have. Let each enjoy their own. If you are faithful....and they are not.....then you will possess the inheritance and fruit of your faith...the others will have their loss of such. Who is to blame???God does not force feed everything down our throats....He presents us with the hope and vision of His glory, perfection and promises....and then supplies the faith-grant (a divine generation) so that we can actually activate that faith in order to receive, possess, experience the substance of that hope and divine vision. To each his own(whatever his faith affords him) - may sound a little crass....but sometimes you gotta get across a point to the unbeleivers wearing christian nametags. To be a christian means to believe Jesus.


Peace,


paul

Freak
February 9th, 2004, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
I for one am exceedingly glad that God is wise and loving enough to have kicked the crutch of miracles out from under the Body of Christ thereby allowing us to have the need of relying totally on His Grace. Without such need spiritual growth is impossible.

We know this to be a lie...

The Holy Scripture speaks of the Body of Christ having the gift of miracles to serve humanity.

Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Miraculous powers is given to the church to heal the sick, to cast out demons, etc...These miracles glorify God & are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Surely these needs still exist. Clete, you do believe these needs still exist--healing, deliverance, etc???? If they do then you have to agree that the present church has these gifts which include the gift of miracles.

Clete, has again spoken out of ignorance and out of disdain for God's Word on this subject. :kookoo:

Freak
February 9th, 2004, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

The result of each is gone over one by one in The Plot. So what? My objective standard for truth isn't the plot materials.


Some reaction was positive and when it was that is acknowledged, but the general/normal reaction was overwhelmingly negative. Huh? It's apparent you have been blinded by your own hatred for God's miracles. People getting healed is a negative? People being freed from demons is a negative? Since when? Miracles fosters belief!

godrulz
February 9th, 2004, 04:47 PM
There is nothing wrong with God's perfect gifts and miracles. Just because man is stupid and hard-hearted is not a reason for God to limit His power and activity among those who will be blessed.

I Corinthians is about the use and misuse of spiritual gifts. It validates them, as Freak is clearly showing in context (I Cor. 12-14). Paul was not making a case against their validity or ongoing role in spiritual warfare. There is no basis or need to pick and chose from the non-exhaustive lists in Cor. and Eph. and Rom.

Clete
February 9th, 2004, 04:48 PM
Freelight,

If I understand you correctly (and I think I do), basically everything that happens is a miracle or at least anything that seems a bit out of the ordinary or that is somewhat difficult to explain. This has a two-fold effect. First it makes your position impossible to disprove and second it makes it meaningless.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

Freak
February 9th, 2004, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by godrulz

There is nothing wrong with God's perfect gifts and miracles. Just because man is stupid and hard-hearted is not a reason for God to limit His power and activity among those who will be blessed.

I Corinthians is about the use and misuse of spiritual gifts. It validates them, as Freak is clearly showing in context (I Cor. 12-14). Paul was not making a case against their validity or ongoing role in spiritual warfare. There is no basis or need to pick and chose from the non-exhaustive lists in Cor. and Eph. and Rom. Godrulz, I appreciate your well reasoned analysis on this issue. As I have pointed out to Clete, it appears the Holy Scriptures do not make any distinction between what we call the "supernatural" gifts and the other "less" supernatural gifts (Note that they appear mixed together in Romans 12:6-8 and 1 Corinthians 12:28). Clete would like to be about seperating some gifts (i.e. gifts of miracles) from the others when the Biblical warrant isn't there. If we are going to deny the operation of "supernatural" gifts in this day, then it seems logical to deny all the gifts of the Spirit mentioned in these passages (not just some).

godrulz
February 9th, 2004, 05:06 PM
Sounds reasonable to me. It is important that we look at each relevant passage using the grammatical, historical, contextual (immediate and remote context; book context), theological, literal approach (hermeneutics).

"The Plot" may be well intentioned to provide a unifying theory and overview to interpret all of Scripture. It is possible to miss the forest (plan) for the trees (exegesis of a small passage), but it is also possible to miss the truth-trees (what a specific passage means on its own) for the forest (plot). If the overview (premise) is not sound, then it can distort the normal contextual approach.

It is too early for me to comment, since I just started "Plot"...but, what if Gal. 2:9 (plot proof text) simply means that the one Gospel was taken to different target groups by different men (not that there was a separate gospel for the circumcision and uncircumcision)? What if miracles lead to belief for some and unbelief for others? Are there not other explicit passages that need to be exegeted (vs eisogesis)?

The fact that "The Plot" negates miracles and believer's water baptism (and supports OSAS) makes it probable that there are flaws with its assumptions or conclusions. Much of it is probably helpful, but has gone too far in a rigid application that ignores sound hermeneutics. i.e. exegete each passage without an arbitrary template that is overused in its generalizations.

LightSon
February 9th, 2004, 05:35 PM
While not conclusive, the context of godrulz' post suggests that he was addressing me, so I will respond based upon that assumption. Please correct me if I am mistaken. :)


Originally posted by godrulz

It is presumptious, ignorant, and arrogant to think that because YOU have not personally had a miracle, that the thousands who have must be off their rocker.
I do not wish to be any of those things, nor is that my conclusion.

I'm sorry that is all you got out of my post. :(


Originally posted by godrulz
The evidence is out there.
Perhaps that is what I am asking to see. My mind is open, believe it or not.


Originally posted by godrulz
Your limited sphere of knowledge should not be the deciding factor.
Perhaps that is true, but scripture and my experience are all I really have to go on - in that order. Anything else is hearsay.

freelight
February 9th, 2004, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Freelight,

If I understand you correctly (and I think I do), basically everything that happens is a miracle or at least anything that seems a bit out of the ordinary or that is somewhat difficult to explain. This has a two-fold effect. First it makes your position impossible to disprove and second it makes it meaningless.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete


)============ Hi Clete,.............all of Life is a miracle. I have no position to 'prove' for faith is its own proof! See the writer of Hebrews definition of faith. Faith is not meaningless. You do not appear to be comprehending the universal law of - 'let it be according to your faith'...which has been the essence of many of my former posts on this thread. Also...you seem to not to want to face what Jesus taught on faith. And why? I see a two-fold reason among others - a lack of studying the issue of faith from the scriptures and teachings of Jesus(besides the dynamics of faith relative to mental and spiritual principles), and a lack of faith in general in Gods power to perform miracles NOW (in our time).

If you go over my posts you will see I have been focusing on faiths role, dynamic relationship to the generation and manifestation of miracles of all kinds. Why do you limit the power of God and not believe that 'according to your faith it shall be'? Why do you not accept the power of faith that Jesus affirms and confirms as making one whole? You will have to answer that yourself. While most of mankind have not entered into the spiritual understanding and demonstration of faith...it remains a field of great potential and reality according to Jesus. Who do you follow?


paul

godrulz
February 9th, 2004, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by LightSon

While not conclusive, the context of godrulz' post suggests that he was addressing me, so I will respond based upon that assumption. Please correct me if I am mistaken. :)


I do not wish to be any of those things, nor is that my conclusion.

I'm sorry that is all you got out of my post. :(


Perhaps that is what I am asking to see. My mind is open, believe it or not.


Perhaps that is true, but scripture and my experience are all I really have to go on - in that order. Anything else is hearsay.


I think it was a generic comment, but more likely to Clete, since I think his critical thinking skills are better than he is demonstrating. He also is the main debater on this subject. Forgive me for my frustration, Clete. I hope it was a generic comment, but it comes across too strongly (though there is a kernel of truth, n'est-ce pas?)

Clete
February 9th, 2004, 07:22 PM
I do not really understand why you think that my critical thinking is in error here!
I'm simply saying that my Biblical understanding is backed up by the lack of physical evidence to the contrary and conversely yours is undermined by that same lack of physical evidence.
I think Freak's obfuscations and mischaracterization of my position have tainted your own understanding of what I've said. From my very fist post I made it cleat that this theological debate can be batted back and forth Biblically all day long with little or no chance of resolution and that it can more easily be determined who is right by an investigation into whether or not physical miracles are actually happening. Not all Biblical ideas can be tested in this way because not all Biblical ideas have anything to do with the physical world but those ideas that do have to do with things physical can be tested by physical means and after those things have been honestly tested and the results analyzed without prejudice then the reality of the physical world with not be found to be in contradiction to the Word of God.
This is my entire position, nothing more, nothing less. In what way is this logic flawed?

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

Clete
February 9th, 2004, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by freelight
...all of Life is a miracle.

freelight,

This is silly! Was Hitler coming to power a miracle?

HIV is alive. Is AIDS a miracle?

How about Smallpox or maybe Cancer? They are all living organisms of one kind or another. Are they miracles too?

Not everything is a miracle freelight. If that was the case then the word miracle word loose all of it meaning. Imagine for a moment that everything was red. Everything! The sky, your desk, the letters on your screen, the background those letters are printed on, the paper in your printer, the printer itself, etc, etc. Do you suppose we would have a word for red if that were the case or would classifications of color be meaningless? See my point? Not everything can be a miracle or else nothing is a miracle. Donít defeat you own position by a careless use of language. Words have meaning and ideas have consequences and

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

P.S. I noticed your "In His substance," sign off a few posts ago.
Very clever! I give you :up: :up: for at least bringing the fight to me on the level at which I'm fighting it! I love a subtle argument; even it is only a jab! If nothing else, it shows you're paying attention.

theo_victis
February 9th, 2004, 07:44 PM
sup everyone-

i have been reading most of the posts in this topic and i have to agree with freak that miracles exsist. Here is my take:

You guys are arguing about miracles from a theological perspective. I am arguing on account of experiance.

I went to Ghana Africa (on the west coast) last summer on a mission trip and my team witnessed a lot of miracles.

Have you ever noticed that when Jesus or any apostles perform a miracle they say "your faith has healed you". Maybe its todays unbelief in the first place that makes God "shut the sky" from his miracles.

I have never read the Plot so i am unsure what it is about, can somebody give me a quick take on the book?

The bottom line is miracles happen. There is more than one person in this world that can attest to this.

Clete
February 9th, 2004, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by theo_victis
I have never read the Plot so i am unsure what it is about, can somebody give me a quick take on the book?

Hit the link below to read chapter one...

The Plot - Chapter One (http://www.kgov.com/docs/ThePlot/ThePlotEnglish01.html)

theo_victis
February 9th, 2004, 07:54 PM
thanks....

theo_victis
February 9th, 2004, 08:44 PM
Regarding the Plot:

What is this guy saying? that the scriptures arent clear without being modified?

the author of the plot made a pretty convincing point with the whole sentence within a sentence thing, but he is only viewing it (so it seems to me) with the english language. I would like to see him try that with the original greek, because i dont believe greek works that way. You can just remove words in greek because so many words need to play off of others to understand the context of them. this guy's theory (so far, since i have only read chapter one) doesnt work for that reason alone.

Plus what is funny is that he warned against using this incorrectly so that no one would distort the bible yet he distorts it here:


here is a quote which i have a problem with.... (this is all the sentence within a sentence theory)

[Paul] did not immediately confer, nor did [he] go to those who were apostles before [him]; Gal. 1:15‑17

[Paul] neither received [the Gospel] from man, nor was [he] taught itÖ Gal. 1:12

[Paul] was unknown by face to Judea. Gal. 1:22

[Paul saw Peter but] none of the other apostles except James, Gal. 1:18‑19

What is he out to do? Make the pauline epistles heretical? LOL that is bad. Let me finish the verse so it makes sense.


[Paul] neither received [the Gospel] from man, nor was [he] taught it EXCEPT BY A REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST Gal. 1:12

paul was trying to make a point....

See i think it is okay to try to figure out the meaning of scripture but i think it is stupid to assume his translation is all of a sudden golden and everything.

This is just what i saw from reading the first chapter. Overall i have mixed feelings about where this could go.

theo_victis
February 9th, 2004, 08:46 PM
anyone who read The Plot, can you tell me about this book, i read first chapter. Thanks

Turbo
February 9th, 2004, 09:01 PM
Originally posted by theo_victis

Regarding the Plot:

What is this guy saying? that the scriptures arent clear without being modified? No.


What is he out to do? Make the pauline epistles heretical? Quite the contrary. He argues that while all scripture is inspired by God, Paul's epistles are specifically addressing the Body of Christ (as opposed to the House of Israel).

Clete
February 9th, 2004, 09:03 PM
Originally posted by theo_victis
What is he out to do? Make the pauline epistles heretical? LOL that is bad.
Quite the reverse. He is making the exact same point you made when you said this...


[Paul] neither received [the Gospel] from man, nor was [he] taught it EXCEPT BY A REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST Gal. 1:12

He is simply pointing out that something different was going on with Paul than had been going on prior to Paul. Paul's message was new.


See i think it is okay to try to figure out the meaning of scripture but i think it is stupid to assume his translation is all of a sudden golden and everything.
Bob would also agree with this statement as well.
Bob does not consider himself to be a Greek scholar but knowing were he went to school I would bet my house that he knows more New Testament Greek than most and far more than he lets on.

To answer your question The Plot lays out what is commonly called Dispensationalism and Bob goes into great detail establishing Biblically that the dispensation of Grace began in Acts chapter 9 when Paul was converted on the Damascus Road, the first to be saved by Grace through faith alone.
This is already far more detail than I like to give about the content of his book. I would prefer that people actually read it and thereby follow his logic step by step in order to be able to see how this conclusion is arrived at. The book is rather pricey because he uses the proceeds to finance his ministry, but I know for sure that if you can not afford it but want a copy that the price is negotiable. Call 1-888-8ENYART if you would like to order a copy.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

freelight
February 9th, 2004, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

freelight,

This is silly! Was Hitler coming to power a miracle?

HIV is alive. Is AIDS a miracle?

How about Smallpox or maybe Cancer? They are all living organisms of one kind or another. Are they miracles too?

Not everything is a miracle freelight. If that was the case then the word miracle word loose all of it meaning. Imagine for a moment that everything was red. Everything! The sky, your desk, the letters on your screen, the background those letters are printed on, the paper in your printer, the printer itself, etc, etc. Do you suppose we would have a word for red if that were the case or would classifications of color be meaningless? See my point? Not everything can be a miracle or else nothing is a miracle. Donít defeat you own position by a careless use of language. Words have meaning and ideas have consequences and

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

P.S. I noticed your "In His substance," sign off a few posts ago.
Very clever! I give you :up: :up: for at least bringing the fight to me on the level at which I'm fighting it! I love a subtle argument; even it is only a jab! If nothing else, it shows you're paying attention.



)=========Hi Clete,........you're missing the whole subject of my posts which is 'faith' - the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. THE FAITH THAT JESUS TEACHES!!! Since you discount the teaching of Jesus and the inner dynamic of faith within the consciousness of man....relative to how these dynamics work within the laws of mind and spirit....relative to how such can bring about the works and will of God thru signs, wonders and miracles (of all kinds)...then there is no more I can do here as my offerings are not being received per the understanding or perspectives so far shared. My posts have been ample...but for the sake of hope of expanding the vision of faith.....I continue on. You have the choice to believe Jesus and begin to believe what he taught on faith...or you can continue with your religious views. The option is yours.

Of course if you're in an environment/atmosphere/church/fellowship etc.......where you are not being taught faith...or hearing preaching on faith....you will not have much faith to believe God for all that is possible and all that Jesus says can be ours - thru faith. (faith comes by hearing ). There are many great teachers out there - I saw a little of Dr. Mark Chironnas sermon on 'Work that wonder - How to orchestrate the miraculous into your daily life' - I recommend this as a great primer for understanding the spiritual laws that govern faith and its cooperation with God....in living the abundant life - I have enjoyed the rich insight and spiritual sensitivity of this minister/teacher/life coach...and he does flow in the realm of the prophetic and gifts of the Holy Spirit. Link -

http://www.markchironna.com/index.htm

Faith is all inclusive..... involved in the whole spectrum of divine Life and living in the Spirit - our whole life journey - faith covers the whole spectrum of our intercourse with Life - from simple living basics...to signs, wonders and miracles ...and beyond - experiencing God in all things.

Got God?

Got faith?

I think some need to double check.


paul

theo_victis
February 9th, 2004, 09:10 PM
okay, thanks for that insight. I hope i didnt appear to blast the guys work, just sometimes it is good to be skeptical. It appears to me that it works then.

Then...

Scratch that thought on the greek. He is just trying to make the scripture easier to comprehend then. Right??

Turbo
February 9th, 2004, 09:11 PM
theo_victis,

There is also a money-back guarantee.

theo_victis
February 9th, 2004, 09:13 PM
lol

theo_victis
February 9th, 2004, 09:18 PM
Clete Pfeiffer -


a quote from you:

"Bob would also agree with this statement as well."


Eversince i joined this site i think that when anyone refers to bob they are refering to Billy bob. lol. I had to read it twice to make sure billy bob wasnt the author. lol

Turbo
February 9th, 2004, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by theo_victis

He is just trying to make the scripture easier to comprehend then. Right?? That's right. The "sentence within a sentence" technique isn't the main point of the book. It's just explained in the first chapter because it's used throughout the book. It's just a tool to amplify the main point within long sentences. Or in some cases, it highlights the part of a passage that is relevent.

I think it's a pretty handy method. I use it often. (Not just on Bible passages, though I do find it useful when I'm underlining something in my own Bible.)

Turbo
February 9th, 2004, 09:19 PM
Originally posted by theo_victis

I had to read it twice to make sure billy bob wasnt the author. lol :shocked:

Clete
February 9th, 2004, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by theo_victis

okay, thanks for that insight. I hope i didnt appear to blast the guys work, just sometimes it is good to be skeptical. It appears to me that it works then.

Then...

Scratch that thought on the Greek. He is just trying to make the scripture easier to comprehend then. Right??

Exactly! :thumb: Which is precisely why he brings up the dangers involved in the sentence in a sentence technique himself. He wants to avoid all appearance of underhandedness. And besides, he never does anything outrageous or even controversial with the technique anyway. It's as you said, simply a way of making things easier to see, especially when you have some of the long, run-on sentences that appear in some of Paul writings. Whether he's right or wrong on his theology, Bob is the most intellectually honest writer I've ever come across.

You should try to pick up a copy! It very much worth the read whether you end up agreeing with his conclusions or not.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

P.S. Turbo wasn't joking about the money back guarantee!
And by the way; Welcome to Theology Online! Glad to have you here. :up:

godrulz
February 10th, 2004, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

I do not really understand why you think that my critical thinking is in error here!
I'm simply saying that my Biblical understanding is backed up by the lack of physical evidence to the contrary and conversely yours is undermined by that same lack of physical evidence.
I think Freak's obfuscations and mischaracterization of my position have tainted your own understanding of what I've said. From my very fist post I made it cleat that this theological debate can be batted back and forth Biblically all day long with little or no chance of resolution and that it can more easily be determined who is right by an investigation into whether or not physical miracles are actually happening. Not all Biblical ideas can be tested in this way because not all Biblical ideas have anything to do with the physical world but those ideas that do have to do with things physical can be tested by physical means and after those things have been honestly tested and the results analyzed without prejudice then the reality of the physical world with not be found to be in contradiction to the Word of God.
This is my entire position, nothing more, nothing less. In what way is this logic flawed?

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

Hundreds of millions of Christians are convinced from Scripture and experience that miracles, healings, gifts of the Spirit still occur. If your logic is not flawed, then your lack of awareness of the body of evidence is i.e. the evidence for the continuation of the charismata and miracles is there.

godrulz
February 10th, 2004, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by theo_victis

okay, thanks for that insight. I hope i didnt appear to blast the guys work, just sometimes it is good to be skeptical. It appears to me that it works then.

Then...

Scratch that thought on the greek. He is just trying to make the scripture easier to comprehend then. Right??

My limited experience with the first few chapters finds some unusual renderings and a reliance on the NKJV to make points that are not as clear in other translations or in a Greek Interlinear.

godrulz
February 10th, 2004, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by Turbo

That's right. The "sentence within a sentence" technique isn't the main point of the book. It's just explained in the first chapter because it's used throughout the book. It's just a tool to amplify the main point within long sentences. Or in some cases, it highlights the part of a passage that is relevent.

I think it's a pretty handy method. I use it often. (Not just on Bible passages, though I do find it useful when I'm underlining something in my own Bible.)

This technique is not normative and can be subjective leading to an emphasis or out-of-context not evidenced in the Greek (sometimes...it has limited value).

Freak
February 10th, 2004, 06:00 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Not all Biblical ideas can be tested in this way because not all Biblical ideas have anything to do with the physical world but those ideas that do have to do with things physical can be tested by physical means and after those things have been honestly tested and the results analyzed without prejudice then the reality of the physical world with not be found to be in contradiction to the Word of God. This is again very bizarre, Biblically unsound, and flawed. Physical evidence doesn't prove the Bible true. God's Word is true because Jesus says it's true. There is a fundamental difference between what we believe...I find ultimate authority in matters of truth in the revelation of Jesus and His Word. If He says it, I believe it. I place physical evidence below the truth authority of Jesus and His Word.


This is my entire position, nothing more, nothing less. In what way is this logic flawed?

Clete This completey flies in the face of Biblical thought. Clete, claims that physical evidence proves what God says is true or that His miracles are true.. Jesus, who is God, stated, "Thy Word is truth." I believe Jesus and thereby don't need physical evidence. Jesus is the truth and speaks the truth--He says it, I believe it. Do you believe it if Jesus says something is true, it's true regardless of physical evidence, Clete?

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

What physical evidence is there regarding this truth statement?

Freak
February 10th, 2004, 06:03 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
Whether he's right or wrong on his theology, Bob is the most intellectually honest writer I've ever come across.
:shut: :rolleyes:

Freak
February 10th, 2004, 06:06 AM
Originally posted by theo_victis

sup everyone-

i have been reading most of the posts in this topic and i have to agree with freak that miracles exsist. Here is my take:

You guys are arguing about miracles from a theological perspective. I am arguing on account of experiance.

I went to Ghana Africa (on the west coast) last summer on a mission trip and my team witnessed a lot of miracles.

Have you ever noticed that when Jesus or any apostles perform a miracle they say "your faith has healed you". Maybe its todays unbelief in the first place that makes God "shut the sky" from his miracles.

The bottom line is miracles happen. There is more than one person in this world that can attest to this. Yes, you're right! Btw, I have traveled to Ghana, West Africa on a number of occassions, visiting Kumasi & Accra.

Clete
February 10th, 2004, 07:52 AM
Originally posted by Freak

This is again very bizarre, Biblically unsound, and flawed. Physical evidence doesn't prove the Bible true. God's Word is true because Jesus says it's true. There is a fundamental difference between what we believe...I find ultimate authority in matters of truth in the revelation of Jesus and His Word. If He says it, I believe it. I place physical evidence below the truth authority of Jesus and His Word.

This completely flies in the face of Biblical thought. Clete, claims that physical evidence proves what God says is true or that His miracles are true.. Jesus, who is God, stated, "Thy Word is truth." I believe Jesus and thereby don't need physical evidence. Jesus is the truth and speaks the truth--He says it, I believe it. Do you believe it if Jesus says something is true, it's true regardless of physical evidence, Clete?

Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

What physical evidence is there regarding this truth statement?

Finally! An actual response to my actual argument! I was beginning to think that you didn't have it in you Freak. Keep it up and maybe we'll make some progress here.

As to "ultimate authority in matters of truth", you have overstated or at least overreacted to my position. I do not place physical evidence OVER the Bible. My position is simply that the Bible does not contradict reality. What I'm saying is easier to see if we remove it for a moment away from the topic of miracles. I'll reuse an example that I brought up a few posts ago...
The Bible calls the Earth a sphere. This statement is falsifiable, meaning that it can be disproved if evidence is shown to the contrary. If people had ever fallen off the edge of the world as was feared by some less than 300 years ago then we could say definitively that the Bible was incorrect in its assertion that the Earth was round. Further, the fact that the Earth was found to be round thousands of years after the Bible recorded this fact is strong evidence of its Divine authorship and absolute trustworthiness.
In the case of miracles, however, we have a dispute as to exactly what the Bible teaches. I believe that the Bible teaches that Miracles have ceased (for now) and you believe the reverse. My only point is that the truth of the matter can be confirmed by the presence or absence of physical evidence. If verifiable physical evidence exists then I am wrong, if it does not then you are.
I frankly don't see why you are so afraid of physical evidence in the first place. Even Paul pointed out that Christianity is a falsifiable religion by stating that if Christ be not risen we are lost in our sins and are the biggest fools who ever lived. If verifiable evidence could be found that Jesus did not in fact rise from the dead then not only are miracles not happening but Christianity is itself a lie.

And finally, as to your scripture quote...
I have avoided answering this question because itís just so ridiculous! Jesus makes a statement about Himself and says, in effect, 'If you donít want to take my word for it, look at the evidence."
Freak, if your going to argue against your own position this is going to get really easy for me!

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

theo_victis
February 10th, 2004, 08:14 AM
Yes, you're right! Btw, I have traveled to Ghana, West Africa on a number of occassions, visiting Kumasi & Accra.

Yeah! that is awesome, i have been to Kumasi and Accra as well, i actually stayed in Daedimon (half hour from Accra) for about three or four weeks.

What brought you to Ghana?

Btw its funny how no has responded to living proof. I saw miracles happen. Fevers, rashes, diseases leaving people that we prayed over.

I also experainced a miracle in my own life. After i got home from Ghana i got really sick. It was malaria. I thought everything would be fine because i have had it before. But i got really really sick and went to the hospital.

My sister and the rest of her youth group was in Nashville Tennessee. My mom called them and told them to pray for me. They decided to pray that God would heal me right away.

Then after that moment i was healed.

THIS IS MY FIRSTHAND EXPERIANCE.

me do (means Jesus loves you / God bless in twi)

theo_victis
February 10th, 2004, 08:30 AM
I believe that the Bible teaches that Miracles have ceased (for now) and you believe the reverse. My only point is that the truth of the matter can be confirmed by the presence or absence of physical evidence. If verifiable physical evidence exists then I am wrong, if it does not then you are.



Well then your wrong. They do happen. I will admit they probably dont happen all the time, but they do. If you think about it there isnt a lot of physical evidence or testimonies to miracles because the media does not simply allow things like that to go on the air.

Why? Because it would give light into Christianity and proclaim the truth.

I personally think in regards to the belief that miracles have declined is false. Just because it happens in foreign places and not America/ Canada / Europe wherever you live, doesnt mean it doesnt happen. God probably looks down at America and thinks that we are way off. Most Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans, well, basically the average Christian has no idea what God is about.

(not to say any of you are one of them)

Clete
February 10th, 2004, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by theo_victis

Well then your wrong. They do happen.

Sorry theo, saying it doesn't make it so!

Show me!

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

theo_victis
February 10th, 2004, 09:11 AM
whatever happened to faith....


i am a brother in Christ and i am testifying to this....
hmm....

okay you prove to me that Jesus was resurrected from the dead then. That is a miracle. You cant physically prove it. You just have to believe. Jeez. So i guess testimonies are no good?!?!?!?

Then the bible must be a bunch of rubbish because it is a testimony. I as well proclaim to you that the truths of the bible are the truths of today.

But i am guessing you want more proof much like the pharisees in which Jesus responded to them by calling them a perverse generation for their unbelief.


dude, get a grip why do you deny God the power to do miracles in todays world? Because you havent seen them with your own eyes?

Clete
February 10th, 2004, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by theo_victis

whatever happened to faith....


i am a brother in Christ and i am testifying to this....
hmm....

okay you prove to me that Jesus was resurrected from the dead then. That is a miracle. You cant physically prove it. You just have to believe. Jeez. So i guess testimonies are no good?!?!?!?

Then the bible must be a bunch of rubbish because it is a testimony. I as well proclaim to you that the truths of the bible are the truths of today.

But i am guessing you want more proof much like the Pharisees in which Jesus responded to them by calling them a perverse generation for their unbelief.


dude, get a grip why do you deny God the power to do miracles in todayís world? Because you havenít seen them with your own eyes?

No, I believe what I believe for Biblical reasons. It's just that I have the added advantage of having the implied testimony of a complete lack of physical evidence to the contrary.

And yes there is a whole mountain of evidence that the resurrection happened.

Further, faith is not blind. It is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. Faith is about excepting the testimony of the substantive evidence (or lack thereof) that is placed before you.

By the way if you would like to see a very well put together presentation of the evidence for the resurrection, you can find it at the following link...

Mount Moriah Video (http://www.kgov.com/store/video.html#mountmoriah)

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

godrulz
February 10th, 2004, 11:07 AM
It is a very subjective apologetic to argue that miracles have ceased because you do not have first hand evidence in your very limited sphere of influence and knowledge. Many testify of their veracity and reality.

Freak is not afraid of physical evidence. He has all the evidence he needs to disprove Clete's premise AND an exegetical foundation from Scripture to validate the experiences.

Clete
February 10th, 2004, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by godrulz

It is a very subjective apologetic to argue that miracles have ceased because you do not have first hand evidence in your very limited sphere of influence and knowledge. Many testify of their veracity and reality.
It is not because I do not have first hand evidence that I do not believe in modern miracles. The fact that evidence for their happening is absent suggests that my Biblical reason (i.e. The Plot) is correct.


Freak is not afraid of physical evidence. He has all the evidence he needs to disprove Clete's premise AND an exegetical foundation from Scripture to validate the experiences.
If he has such evidence he has either been unable or unwilling to produce it.

Resting in His sufficient grace,
Clete

theo_victis
February 10th, 2004, 03:33 PM
dude here i am telling you that miracles exsist. I am right here. jeez. What more does it take. I experianced them. Read a thousand TESTIMONIES. I agree with you about being a little skeptical, its okay (you dont want to believe everything you hear) but i proclaim to you that i am telling the truth.


Not to be rude but do you consider me a liar?


Plus you cant prove with any physical evidence that Jesus' ressurrection occured just as much as you can prove the miracles i experianced were true. It takes faith.

(note: Jesus' ressurection is a wee bit more important and probably shouldnt be compared with my experiance but it is the easiest metaphor i got. And Yes i believe in the ressurrection, that might clear up my point.)

theo_victis
February 10th, 2004, 03:36 PM
Clete-

you said:

"Sorry theo, saying it doesn't make it so!

Show me!"


it sounds a lot like doubting thomas.

You dont have to believe in the miracles i experianced (thats okay) but to make a huge claim that they dont exsist/occur anymore is a huge claim.

Just something to think about.

Clete
February 10th, 2004, 05:22 PM
As I've said before Thomas was shown the physical evidence when he asked for it.

The difference between Thomas and me is that I am not basing my belief on the evidence itself. Again, I'm simply pointing out that the absence of evidence argues in favor of my Biblical position.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

theo_victis
February 10th, 2004, 05:36 PM
one problem though, the bible is full of miracles to the very end.

what biblical position do you hold?

theo_victis
February 10th, 2004, 05:37 PM
Clete-

I am still wondering do you consider me a liar?

freelight
February 10th, 2004, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

As I've said before Thomas was shown the physical evidence when he asked for it.

The difference between Thomas and me is that I am not basing my belief on the evidence itself. Again, I'm simply pointing out that the absence of evidence argues in favor of my Biblical position.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete


)=============== Clete,..............you did not see Jesus rise from the dead...but you believe based upon written records of those who claimed to have seen him. So....you have the lack of evidence...but choose to believe anyways. Hundreds of testimonies of miracles of all kinds have been shared, written about and experienced by many - but you choose not to believe in them. Both are verified by written records. You dont even have the writers of the Bible alive today....but you have many living today that can attest to miracles to your face.....but you still choose not to believe. The only evident thing here is your lack of faith and your limited acceptance of what scripture clearly teaches about faith and miracles. You have more faith in dead people, who wrote down records, which were furthermore tailored more or less...then canonized by church councils...than living persons today who share their testimonies. Your doubt and unbelief show your faith in men and letters than in the power of the living God moving in our midst today among THOSE WHO BELIEVE. There is no more to say here really....as one cannot force another to believe - one must hear the word of faith and receive the generation from above to exercise faith in what they hear - since you are audience only to unbelief...that will be your fruit and your experience. For those of us who believe and know the spiritual dimensions of living faith....the Lord God in the midst of us will always be mighty to save, heal and deliver. We do not stand on the sidelines like infants in understanding...and demand to be shown proofs to initiate us into believing - we walk by faith.....and faith precedes and inspires the working of signs, wonders and miracles in our midst. Again..........'let each have according to their faith!'.

All you have shown and been exposed for...is unbelief.....due to your assumption of lack of evidence. :rolleyes:



God is not mocked by unbelief and doubt.........for what a man sows (by faith in the Spirit) that shall he reap. - this is universal law....and all those who sow towards the Spirit shall reap the fruit thereof.

'he who believes in God...must believe that he IS..and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him...for without faith...it is impossible to please Him'.

It appears there are temperments of faith in the body of Christ.......selective faith (believe God for some things...but limit Him in other things). So be it. The law of faith, the law of the Spirit, the law of sowing and reaping still avail.


paul

godrulz
February 10th, 2004, 07:05 PM
Are any of us committing the logical fallacy of begging the question (circular reasoning) by assuming a premise and using it as proof for our position? There is another fallacy to arrive at a conclusion without having all the possible evidence. By subjective apologetic, I meant that there may be evidence that you do not personally have in front of you that would change things.

I think it would be good to exegete the passages on spiritual gifts, miracles, and healings and THEN let the anecdotal evidence be confirmatory or negating. Just be aware that any of us has a minute amount of all the possible information in the universe. You may not have first hand evidence, but that does not mean that others do not either. There are hundreds of millions of people that speak in tongues, know of healings/deliverances, etc.; there are 1000s of books through the centuries documenting moves of God that included signs and wonders. To call all Pentecostal/charismatic believers/ministries/leaders liars or frauds is really grasping at straws.

e.g. Smith Wigglesworth, Reinhard Bonnke, David DuPlessis, Azusa Street revivals, Assemblies of God, Vineyard (Wimber) etc. are all credible in their accounts of historical evidence of the supernatural in their midst.

"Yes there are, no there is not" is getting us no where.

Bottom line: some of us are persuaded that miracles still occur based on Scripture and experience; others believe dispensationalism precludes the possibility and have no first hand proof. The latter should remain open to the evidence as it comes in, and should revisit passages in context without a dispensational template.

Clete
February 10th, 2004, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by theo_victis

one problem though, the bible is full of miracles to the very end.

what biblical position do you hold?

Well without going into unnecessary detail, my position is basically identical to that put forward in The Plot. Stated as simply as possible, physical miracles faded with the previous dispensation.
However, keep in mind that I am not interested in debating this from a Biblical perspective. Doing so is not only unnecessary but would be unbearably cumbersome in that you would basically have to come up with a doctrinal system that does as good a job at explaining seemingly unrelated issues as does Acts 9 Dispensationalism, which I doubt you or anyone else is capable of doing.


I am still wondering do you consider me a liar?
No, I consider Freak a liar but not you.
Lying involves intent to deceive, which I do not believe you have. I have no doubt that you believe what you say to be true. But keep in mind that there are hundred of thousands if not millions of people who believe in UFO's and there are definitely millions of people who believe that one idiot on T.V. (I forget his name) can actually contact their dead relatives and relay messages from beyond the grave. This is why anecdotal evidence is untrustworthy. People are simply too easily deceived into believing and seeing what they want to believe and see. No offense intended but I consider you to be in this unfortunate category.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

godrulz
February 10th, 2004, 07:31 PM
UFOs can be demonic apparitions, so these people are not crazy. They lack discernment to know that not all supernatural things have God as a source. Demonic counterfeits, like seances with the dead, are real to the witnesses, but they are deceptions of the enemy. Other things can be explained naturally (weather balloons, etc.) or as frauds (fake photographs or "Big Foot" = guy in a suit with someone taking pictures....or crop circles...guys at night making them).

Some miracles are explainable apart from God. We contend that there is another subset that are clearly done in the name of Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit, consistent with the Word of God, through godly men of God (or directly from the hand of God without human vessel).

It is not necessary to confuse categories, risking throwing the baby out with the proverbial bathwater.

There are counterfeits or demonically inspired 'miracles'. You only counterfeit something of value (genuine). Satan is not greater than God in this dispensation. The church is an army equipped with supernatural weapons, serving a mighty God, in the face of a supernatural enemy.

Clete
February 10th, 2004, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by freelight

)=============== Clete,..............you did not see Jesus rise from the dead...but you believe based upon written records of those who claimed to have seen him. So....you have the lack of evidence...but choose to believe anyways.
This is not true. See previous posts on this very issue.



Hundreds of testimonies of miracles of all kinds have been shared, written about and experienced by many - but you choose not to believe in them. Both are verified by written records.
I do not deny that there are testimonies, I do deny that they have been "verified by written records". They have been written down but so have the magic spells of witches, that doesn't mean they are real or that magic actually works.


The only evident thing here is your lack of faith and your limited acceptance of what scripture clearly teaches about faith and miracles.
This is what is in dispute and what will be settled one way or the other by evidence or the lack thereof.


You have more faith in dead people, who wrote down records, which were furthermore tailored more or less...then canonized by church councils...than living persons today who share their testimonies.
I do not doubt the Bible if that is what you are saying.


Your doubt and unbelief show your faith in men and letters than in the power of the living God moving in our midst today among THOSE WHO BELIEVE.
If an angel from God came to me and preached a gospel different than the one preached by the apostle Paul I would not beleive it.


All you have shown and been exposed for...is unbelief.....due to your assumption of lack of evidence. :rolleyes:
I have not assumed anything! I have never been shown any evidence that suggest in any verifiable way that my Biblical position on this issue needs modification in any way. If you think you can the I invite you to do so.


God is not mocked by unbelief and doubt.........for what a man sows (by faith in the Spirit) that shall he reap. - this is universal law....and all those who sow towards the Spirit shall reap the fruit thereof.
It may surprise you to know that I agree with this statement although your addition of "by faith in the Spirit" is an unnecessary addition.


'he who believes in God...must believe that he IS..and is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him...for without faith...it is impossible to please Him'.
As good a reason as I can think of for God to have put an end to the devastating effects of miracles on those who witness them.


It appears there are temperaments of faith in the body of Christ.......selective faith (believe God for some things...but limit Him in other things).
It's not as if I went to God and told Him to stop performing miracles. It was He who stopped for His own reasons which I understand and have tried to communicate on these pages. The point being that if you have faith in something that is false, your faith doesn't make it true. God has either ceased doing physical miracles or He has not, what you choose to believe about it does not change the truth of the matter.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

Clete
February 10th, 2004, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by godrulz

UFOs can be demonic apparitions, so these people are not crazy. They lack discernment to know that not all supernatural things have God as a source. Demonic counterfeits, like seances with the dead, are real to the witnesses, but they are deceptions of the enemy. Other things can be explained naturally (weather balloons, etc.) or as frauds (fake photographs or "Big Foot" = guy in a suit with someone taking pictures....or crop circles...guys at night making them).

Some miracles are explainable apart from God. We contend that there is another subset that are clearly done in the name of Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit, consistent with the Word of God, through godly men of God (or directly from the hand of God without human vessel).

It is not necessary to confuse categories, risking throwing the baby out with the proverbial bathwater.

There are counterfeits or demonically inspired 'miracles'. You only counterfeit something of value (genuine). Satan is not greater than God in this dispensation. The church is an army equipped with supernatural weapons, serving a mighty God, in the face of a supernatural enemy.
The way you tell the difference between a fraud and the real thing is by an examination of the evidence.

theo_victis
February 10th, 2004, 07:46 PM
It's not as if I went to God and told Him to stop performing miracles. It was He who stopped for His own reasons which I understand and have tried to communicate on these pages.


How do you know? You have been asking for us to prove that miracles do exsist today. How about you proving they dont. I dont believe it can be done.

People overlook the power of a miracle in the hands of the Lord. It is a great evangelism tool (not that i can just whip them out of a hat, it has to come from the Lord) they stir belief.

Freak
February 10th, 2004, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
I do not place physical evidence OVER the Bible. Good, then deal with these Scriptural truths regarding the issue of miracles...

Holy Scripture declares that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42).

At least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.


My position is simply that the Bible does not contradict reality. My position is this: Jesus is my source of truth not physical evidence. Your position is flawed. Reality (in our world) tells us that homosexual marriage is legal in certain countries of the world. In God's eyes He sees it as being illegal, wrong, evil. The Bible contradicted reality.

Besides, where is the physcial evidence you can show me where this statement by Jesus is true: "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me.." I don't believe this on the basis of physical evidence but rather on the basis of the Lord Jesus.


Further, the fact that the Earth was found to be round thousands of years after the Bible recorded this fact is strong evidence of its Divine authorship and absolute trustworthiness.

That's absurd and flawed once again. My evidence stems from the revelation of the Lord Jesus not upon science. Jesus claimed to be the truth (see John 14:6). If Jesus claimed that Scripture to be true, I will believe it because Jesus said it. Why would I need science to prove anything when I have God Himself telling me that His word is true?


I believe that the Bible teaches that Miracles have ceased (for now) and you believe the reverse. This is flawed. For Scripture tells us that God gives the gift of miracles to His church today...

If the primary purpose of miracles was to authenticate the Scriptures, as they ceased at the closing of the Canon, then why did any one else have a ministry of signs and wonders or miracles? Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). I have never read or heard of a sufficient answer to that question. The church is still present and there is no reason to believe He doesn't give His church gifts that include the gifts of miracles.

If Jesusí miracles were sufficient to authenticate him as the Son of God and to authenticate his message, why did the apostles have to do miracles? The standard reply is that the apostles had to do miracles to show that they were trustworthy witnesses to Jesus Christ and trustworthy teachers of doctrine. But why couldnít they just preach about the miracles as much of the church does today? Canít we be regarded as trustworthy witnesses today without doing miracles? If we can, then why did the apostles need miracles?


My only point is that the truth of the matter can be confirmed by the presence or absence of physical evidence. If verifiable physical evidence exists then I am wrong, if it does not then you are. No! Jesus is my authority not physical evidence. You are placing physical evidence above Jesus. This is a spiritual crime. It is wrong!


I frankly don't see why you are so afraid of physical evidence in the first place. I'm not. I have asked you to email the following church to receive your evidence:

For these verifiable healings can be attained here: To contact the church you may either email us at office@covenantwordchurch.org or write us at:

Covenant Word Church
PO Box 773
Key West, FL 33041


Even Paul pointed out that Christianity is a falsifiable religion by stating that if Christ be not risen we are lost in our sins and are the biggest fools who ever lived. If verifiable evidence could be found that Jesus did not in fact rise from the dead then not only are miracles not happening but Christianity is itself a lie. Where have we seen the physical evidence that Christ bodily rose from the grave. We believe because the Bible tells us so not because of physical evidence...Doh.......


And finally, as to your scripture quote... I was merely pointing out the obvious. Prove to me where there is physical evidence for this truth statement by Jesus: "Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me.."

Freak
February 10th, 2004, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by theo_victis

Yeah! that is awesome, i have been to Kumasi and Accra as well, i actually stayed in Daedimon (half hour from Accra) for about three or four weeks.

What brought you to Ghana?

Btw its funny how no has responded to living proof. I saw miracles happen. Fevers, rashes, diseases leaving people that we prayed over.

I also experainced a miracle in my own life. That's awesome! Great testimony. I'm an evangelist and have served God in this capacity around the world for many years. The ministry of the Gospel brought us to Ghana. I used to live in Africa, Cotonou, Benin.

Freak
February 10th, 2004, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by godrulz

It is a very subjective apologetic to argue that miracles have ceased because you do not have first hand evidence in your very limited sphere of influence and knowledge. Many testify of their veracity and reality.

Freak is not afraid of physical evidence. He has all the evidence he needs to disprove Clete's premise AND an exegetical foundation from Scripture to validate the experiences. :thumb:

Freak
February 10th, 2004, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

It is not because I do not have first hand evidence that I do not believe in modern miracles. The fact that evidence for their happening is absent suggests that my Biblical reason (i.e. The Plot) is correct. Notice how closely Clete places the plot book alongside the Scriptures. The plot materials have been proven, through the light of Scripture, as being wrong and leading people away from the living God who performs miralces in our day.


If he has such evidence he has either been unable or unwilling to produce it. Lie! :down: My evidence is Jesus! Can you think of any better evidence then the very words of Jesus? I didn't think so. :p

Freak
February 10th, 2004, 08:14 PM
Originally posted by theo_victis
Plus you cant prove with any physical evidence that Jesus' ressurrection occured just as much as you can prove the miracles i experianced were true. It takes faith. Exactly. We have the very words of Jesus, however, and that's good enough for me. :up:

godrulz
February 10th, 2004, 09:01 PM
Why is Clete trying to refute God's miracles in the same manner and apologetic as he would Satanism? Clete, did you previously imply that Satan also is not up to supernatural wiles in this dispensation (demonization, counterfeit miracles, counterfeit tongues, 'ghosts', UFOs, etc,)? Witchcraft is not all fraud. There are many former people who have left the occult or animists in Africa or voodooists in Haiti who will tell you of the power of the dark side. If God has stopped being supernatural, who made Satan play by the same rules (Revelation shows that Satan will be doing supernatural things in the Tribulation)?

Clete
February 10th, 2004, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by theo_victis

How do you know? You have been asking for us to prove that miracles do exsist today. How about you proving they dont. I dont believe it can be done.
The absence of any physical evidence that they have occured is proof that they have not. That my whole point.


People overlook the power of a miracle in the hands of the Lord. It is a great evangelism tool (not that i can just whip them out of a hat, it has to come from the Lord) they stir belief.
The Biblical record shows quite the opposite. Generally people who witness a miracle end up hating God.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

Freak
February 10th, 2004, 09:17 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

The absence of any physical evidence that they have occured is proof that they have not. That my whole point. This is flawed. Jesus is our source of truth not physical evidence. If Jesus says miracles would continue in our day then I believe it.


The Biblical record shows quite the opposite. Generally people who witness a miracle end up hating God.
The Scriptures point to the reality that as a result of miracles people believed in Christ. It testified of God's greatness. Furthermore...I have never met anyone who hated God as a result of seeing someone being healed or delivered from demons.

In fact, miracles glorify God not dishonor Him. This is something that Clete has failed to see. He's been duped to believe a lie.

Clete
February 10th, 2004, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by Freak

This is flawed. Jesus is our source of truth not physical evidence. If Jesus says miracles would continue in our day then I believe it.

The Scriptures point to the reality that as a result of miracles people believed in Christ. It testified of God's greatness. Furthermore...I have never met anyone who hated God as a result of seeing someone being healed or delivered from demons.

In fact, miracles glorify God not dishonor Him. This is something that Clete has failed to see. He's been duped to believe a lie.

Freak why do you try to refute a book that you haven't read? I've said a dozen times that Bob looks at every single miracle or set of miracles recorded in the Bible at looks at its results. Sometimes the reaction is positive but rarely. Generally the results are disastrous for those who witness the miracles. In fact it is usually the fraudulent miracles that people get excited about and that everyone believes. So your experience goes along with a Biblical precedent that argues against your position. In other words the fact that you have never met anyone who hated God because of miracles is strong evidence that the miracles they witnessed were not real.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

Clete
February 10th, 2004, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by godrulz

Why is Clete trying to refute God's miracles in the same manner and apologetic as he would Satanism? Clete, did you previously imply that Satan also is not up to supernatural wiles in this dispensation (demonization, counterfeit miracles, counterfeit tongues, 'ghosts', UFOs, etc,)? Witchcraft is not all fraud. There are many former people who have left the occult or animists in Africa or voodooists in Haiti who will tell you of the power of the dark side. If God has stopped being supernatural, who made Satan play by the same rules (Revelation shows that Satan will be doing supernatural things in the Tribulation)?
Whether or not Satan can perform what we would consider a miracle is another debate. But supposing for a moment that he can, his miracles would leave some evidence of their having happened as well.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

theo_victis
February 10th, 2004, 10:13 PM
Clete-

i cant argue with you there that miracles may stir unbelief because i have read cases where they have. But the fact remains that they do testify to the Lord's Goodness and show his power. They strengthen faith that wants to be strengthened...

I can testify to the fact that i am a stronger person in faith and in life because of the things i have seen. I know that people have repented of their sins because of these. God must have them for a reason... To convict the unbeliever and strengthen the believer and to do good work.

Freak-

That is sweet that you went to Ghana. It is a beautiful place. I love it there. I plan on being a missionary (if God wants me to Go to ghana) there. Do you mind if i ask you what you are currently doing now that you arent in Africa or are you still there????

Freak
February 11th, 2004, 06:11 AM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Freak why do you try to refute a book that you haven't read? I've read portions of it and I know the basics of what he believes regarding this issue. He's wrong and he's leading people away from the one and true God on this issue.


I've said a dozen times that Bob looks at every single miracle or set of miracles recorded in the Bible at looks at its results. But he doesn't. Why do you keep on stating this fallacy? In light of his own definition he hasn't included many other miracles stated in Scripture. Why do you must fell like you you need to stay in darkness?


Sometimes the reaction is positive but rarely. Huh? Miracles stem from His very nature. How can they be seen as being a negative if they come from Holy God? Yes, some unbelievers rejected God's works, so? Many accepted and glorified God. When someone is healed. That is a positive. When someone is delivered from demons. That is a positive. The reaction of those experiencing the miracles is gratefulness. Miracles glorify God they don't dishonor Him, silly man.


Generally the results are disastrous for those who witness the miracles. Another fallacy. God's Word tells us that miracles have a divine purpose that God promises will be carried out:

...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

God says He uses miracles to testify, to confirm of His goodness, His glory, His salvation. Who are you to tell us God doesn't have a purpose for miracles when in fact He does?


In other words the fact that you have never met anyone who hated God because of miracles is strong evidence that the miracles they witnessed were not real. I said I never met anyone who experienced a miracle, a healing, a deliverance that was angry about being freed from demons, being freed from a sickness, etc....

Clete, there are many who have rejected God's miracles but this rejection does not call for miracles to cease for we know the Holy Scripture declares that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42).

Clete, please respond to this: At least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Clete
February 11th, 2004, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by Freak

I've read portions of it and I know the basics of what he believes regarding this issue. He's wrong and he's leading people away from the one and true God on this issue.
By portions do you mean the first chapter? By looking at your responses on this thread I cannot tell that you have read anything past Chapter 4 at the most and you for sure have not read the chapter dealing with miracles. It okay to have not read his book you know. There is no shame involved. If you haven't read it just say so and stop pretending for the purposes of debate that you have.


But he doesn't. Why do you keep on stating this fallacy? In light of his own definition he hasn't included many other miracles stated in Scripture. Why do you must fell like you need to stay in darkness?
Yes Freak he does. If he missed any at all I'd be surprised. He goes over more that 300 miracles or sets of miracles that are recorded in the Bible and looks at the resulting reaction to those miracles by both those who experienced the miracle and those who witnessed them and it is almost universally a negative response by those who witnessed them.


Huh? Miracles stem from His very nature. How can they be seen as being a negative if they come from Holy God? Yes, some unbelievers rejected God's works, so? Many accepted and glorified God. When someone is healed. That is a positive. When someone is delivered from demons. That is a positive. The reaction of those experiencing the miracles is gratefulness. Miracles glorify God they don't dishonor Him, silly man.
Wow! I lost you there Freak! Slow down and think this through. I never said that the miracles were negative or that they cast a negative light on God. I said that the reaction by those who witness the miracles was negative.


Another fallacy. God's Word tells us that miracles have a divine purpose that God promises will be carried out:

...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

God says He uses miracles to testify, to confirm of His goodness, His glory, His salvation. Who are you to tell us God doesn't have a purpose for miracles when in fact He does?
Who are you debating with Freak? I never said that God's miracles don't serve a purpose!


I said I never met anyone who experienced a miracle, a healing, a deliverance that was angry about being freed from demons, being freed from a sickness, etc....
I think you have forgotten that your posts are all visible and easily reread by those logged into this web site.
You said...
"I have never met anyone who hated God as a result of seeing someone being healed or delivered from demons."
The Biblical record would seem to at least suggest that the lack of a negative response by anyone is a pretty good indicator that what they witnessed was not a genuine miracle. That coupled with a complete lack of physical evidence that these miracles actually happened is a death blow to their veracity.



Clete, there are many who have rejected God's miracles but this rejection does not call for miracles to cease for we know the Holy Scripture declares that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42).

Clete, please respond to this: At least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.
Simply stated, physical miracles were necessary in order for God to validate Paul's ministry and message to those who were of the circumcision. Once this primary purpose was accomplished then miracles faded with the previous dispensation.
Now that is a very incomplete answer but it is not necessary for me to respond to this in any more detail than I already have. My position is quite clear an if you have read The Plot then you already know how I arrived at this conclusion Biblically. If you haven't then I recommend that you do. Either way the fact still remains that you are unable to present any verifiable physical evidence that the things which you claim to be happening are in fact actually happening and until you can present such evidence the weakness of your Biblical position in self evident.

Resting in His Sufficient Grace,
Clete

Zakath
February 11th, 2004, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by godrulz
e.g. Smith Wigglesworth, Reinhard Bonnke, David DuPlessis, Azusa Street revivals, Assemblies of God, Vineyard (Wimber) etc. are all credible in their accounts of historical evidence of the supernatural in their midst.

I met David DuPlessis and had a chance to speak with him. I would say that he appeared to be convinced that some of the extraordinary occurences in his life were miraculous manifestations of his deity.

godrulz
February 11th, 2004, 10:50 AM
Thanks for the tidbit, Zakath. DuPlessis ("Mr. Pentecost") recorded many interesting miracles. He was controversial in that he was ecumenical and wanted to bridge the gap between Catholics and Pentecostals.

Zakath, do you have an opinion (from your former understanding of Christianity; whether you now believe in miracles or not) on this debate? (dispensationalism, miracles fading, two different gospels for the circum. and uncirc.?)

Clete: Could you clarify for the non-Plot owners if the circumcision gospel is the one we should preach to modern Jews, or do we preach Paul's version to Jew and Gentile? Do I understand correctly that the early church would have preached faith and works to national Jews after the resurrection (until when? modern? end of 1st century?) and faith alone to anyone who was a Gentile? In a mixed crowd, how would they know? I must be misunderstanding and assume the circumcision gospel was for a limited time of transition?

It would be helpful if you listed a few verses/300 that show miracles led to unbelief, so we can read them in context. Could you include a sample of explicit ones and some that are not as obvious? (again, for non-Plot owners and those who have not read Ch. 4).

Zakath
February 11th, 2004, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by godrulz

Thanks for the tidbit, Zakath. DuPlessis ("Mr. Pentecost") recorded many interesting miracles. He was controversial in that he was ecumenical and wanted to bridge the gap between Catholics and Pentecostals.It cost him his ministerial credentials with the Assemblies of God, but he attended the Roman Catholic ecumenical council (Second Vatican Council) as an invited representative of the pentecostal faith.


Zakath, do you have an opinion (from your former understanding of Christianity; whether you now believe in miracles or not) on this debate? (dispensationalism, miracles fading, two different gospels for the circum. and uncirc.?)
While the Jewish and Christian Bibles describe a number of supernatural events and miracles, there seem to be a paucity of such things in the modern time.

My own current opinion is that supernatural manifestations called miracles do not occur. All allegedly miraculous occurences in the present day can be traced to causes within the bounds of human or natural agency.

The decline of miracles has been noted for many centuries. The Church Fathers mention that miracles occurred in their days but with diminished frequency from apostolic times. It seems that miracles always happen more frequently in "the good old days".

The dispensationalist view is a relatively modern invention as Church history goes. It was not officially promulgated until the early 19th century (around 1830). The initial development by John Nelson Darby interestingly enough was based on information he received "miraculously". It's fascinating to me that a doctrinal position used to argue against the modern manifestation of the miraculous depends for its very existence on Margaret MacDonald, a 20 year-old woman charismatic, relaying a "revelation" described by Darby as "mingled in prophecy and vision" while she was in an ecstatic religious trance. :chuckle:

I think the dual-gospel view may have some merit at describing the history of overall doctrinal development as the "gospel of the uncircumcision" eventually became the majority and orthodox positon of the Christian churches. I do not see, based on what I've read, that it is a sufficient explanation for the alleged cessation of miracles.

godrulz
February 11th, 2004, 12:04 PM
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. As you know, Enyart's view of dispensationalism is not identical to various other strains of it. I suppose I hold to a form of eschatological dispensationalism, but was not familiar with the mid-Acts position (and still do not understand it) until recently.

What was your former denominational background again?

Zakath
February 11th, 2004, 12:15 PM
Originally posted by godrulz

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. As you know, Enyart's view of dispensationalism is not identical to various other strains of it. I suppose I hold to a form of eschatological dispensationalism, but was not familiar with the mid-Acts position (and still do not understand it) until recently.

What was your former denominational background again? Mongrel! :D

Raised Roman Catholic, joined the Assemblies of God and received ministerial credentials there, left the AoG and attended a couple of non-demoninational churches, also an SBC and a couple of Episcopalian churches for a while.

Clete
February 11th, 2004, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by godrulz
Clete: Could you clarify for the non-Plot owners if the circumcision gospel is the one we should preach to modern Jews, or do we preach Paul's version to Jew and Gentile?
There is no longer any distinction between Jew and Gentile.


Do I understand correctly that the early church would have preached faith and works to national Jews after the resurrection (until when? modern? end of 1st century?) and faith alone to anyone who was a Gentile? In a mixed crowd, how would they know? I must be misunderstanding and assume the circumcision gospel was for a limited time of transition?
The Gospel of the Circumcision was preached exclusively until Paul (the resurrection and the Day of Pentecost were both a prophesied part of God's plan to give Israel a Kingdom) and then it slowly faded out as those who were saved under that dispensation died. For a while both dispensations were in effect. Both groups, Israel and The Body of Christ coexisted.
Basically Paul's converts were under the new Dispensation of the Grace of God and those that were converted by Peter James and John (the twelve) were under the Dispensation of Law (aka The Gospel of the Kingdom). If you were saved under the old then you stayed under the old "for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."


It would be helpful if you listed a few verses/300 that show miracles led to unbelief, so we can read them in context. Could you include a sample of explicit ones and some that are not as obvious? (again, for non-Plot owners and those who have not read Ch. 4).

Actually chapter four doesnít have anything to do with miracles but I will grant your request. You have to wait until I get home though. I just got a big shipment in here at work so Iím fresh out of time until this evening!

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

godrulz
February 11th, 2004, 12:43 PM
Clete: Thank you for your clarifications. The position sounds more moderate than I thought.

If there is neither Jew nor Gentile now, then the distinction between circ./uncirc. seems merely academic for the Church Age. I take it that the cessation of miracles is not directly related to the '2 gospels', but is based on another stream of evidence or thought (or is it...if miracles were for the circ., and the distinction is now gone, is it that they were not to be part of Paul's gospel? How is this reconciled with Freak's verses from Pauline literature that shows the gifts were for the Church/Gentiles?)

Clete
February 11th, 2004, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by godrulz

Clete: Thank you for your clarifications. The position sounds more moderate than I thought.

If there is neither Jew nor Gentile now, then the distinction between circ./uncirc. seems merely academic for the Church Age.
Well I wouldn't go that far. Understanding the differnce between the two and who was under which dispensation and why speaks to nearly every major doctrinal debate in the church today.


I take it that the cessation of miracles is not directly related to the '2 gospels', but is based on another stream of evidence or thought (or is it...if miracles were for the circ., and the distinction is now gone, is it that they were not to be part of Paul's gospel? How is this reconciled with Freak's verses from Pauline literature that shows the gifts were for the Church/Gentiles?)

Excellent questions, but I would rather wait until you've read the rest of The Plot before we go into too much detail. I'm very excited about the fact that you are reading it. Whether or not you agree with its conclusions or not I can hardly wait to discuss it with someone whom I respect for their intellectual honesty!

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

Freak
February 11th, 2004, 04:10 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
If you haven't read it just say so and stop pretending for the purposes of debate that you have. The fact is I understand Enyart's position on miracles, in light of what the plot materials teach.


If he missed any at all I'd be surprised. He goes over more that 300 miracles or sets of miracles that are recorded in the Bible So?


and looks at the resulting reaction to those miracles by both those who experienced the miracle and those who witnessed them and it is almost universally a negative response by those who witnessed them. Again, many of those who hear the Gospel preach will reject it. So. Just because people reject it doesn't mean we have the divine right to stop preaching the gospel, because of all those who reject. Clete, you do not have the divine right to remove the gift of miracles from the body of Christ, which you are seeking to do. The burden of proof lies with you to prove to us that God stopped giving His body the gift of miracles and that negative responses to those who witness the miracle is enough evidence to cease miracles. :down:


Wow! I lost you there Freak! Slow down and think this through. I never said that the miracles were negative or that they cast a negative light on God. Good! For we know from the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42).


I said that the reaction by those who witness the miracles was negative. Most who hear the gospel will reject it. Should we then not preach the gospel? Your logic is wacky and pathetic.


I never said that God's miracles don't serve a purpose! So does that mean God still gives His body the gift of miracles to carry out His determined purpose?


You said...
"I have never met anyone who hated God as a result of seeing someone being healed or delivered from demons."
The Biblical record would seem to at least suggest that the lack of a negative response by anyone is a pretty good indicator that what they witnessed was not a genuine miracle. Clete says this despite what God's Word has declared:

The apostle John penned these words..

Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name.

It was because of people seeing the miracles that people "believed in His name." Clete, your lack of Biblical knowledge is showing.


That coupled with a complete lack of physical evidence that these miracles actually happened is a death blow to their veracity. You are now reacting out of emotion instead of Biblical reason. The Holy Scripture speaks of the Body of Christ having the gift of miracles to serve humanity. This cannot be denied by someone with a mind. We are the Body and this Body, in light of the below portion of Scripture, has the gift of miracles to honor Him. This you have ignored.

Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.


Simply stated, physical miracles were necessary in order for God to validate Paul's ministry and message to those who were of the circumcision. What about those who were non-apostles? Were they given the ability to perform miracles to validate their ministry to those whom were of the circumsed? Take for example Luke 9:49-50 or Philip's use of the gifts in Acts 8:6,7,13. Why did God give gifts of healing and miracles to the church? (1 Cor. 12:7-10; Gal. 3:5). Was it to validate the ministry of the church?


Once this primary purpose was accomplished then miracles faded with the previous dispensation. Note everyone reading this. No Biblical foundation for this belief. Pure speculation.


My position is quite clear an if you have read The Plot then you already know how I arrived at this conclusion Biblically. Note: Clete has arrived to this position through the lens of teaching of Enyart.


If you haven't then I recommend that you do.

Why? Jesus promised:

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. I have the Holy Spirit leading me through the Scriptures. I don't need Enyart books. I would highly recommend you read the Scriptures through the guidance of the Holy Spirit instead of Enyart.


Either way the fact still remains that you are unable to present any verifiable physical evidence that the things which you claim to be happening are in fact actually happening We have provided evidence. We have provided personal testimony. We have provided the testimony of the Scriptures. You have provided us Enyart and the plot materials. Pathetic!!! Clete, relies upon enyart and evidence. We rely upon the Scriptures and the revelation of Jesus.

Freak
February 11th, 2004, 04:17 PM
Homework for Clete...

Clete, please respond to this: At least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him. Answer these last few questions, please.

Freak
February 11th, 2004, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by theo_victis

Clete-

i cant argue with you there that miracles may stir unbelief because i have read cases where they have. But the fact remains that they do testify to the Lord's Goodness and show his power. They strengthen faith that wants to be strengthened...

I can testify to the fact that i am a stronger person in faith and in life because of the things i have seen. I know that people have repented of their sins because of these. God must have them for a reason... To convict the unbeliever and strengthen the believer and to do good work. Death blow to Clete's points.


Freak-

That is sweet that you went to Ghana. It is a beautiful place. I love it there. I plan on being a missionary (if God wants me to Go to ghana) there. Do you mind if i ask you what you are currently doing now that you arent in Africa or are you still there???? I'm an evangelist. Fee free to visit me at our website at jaybartlett.org. Hope to hear from you soon my friend. :thumb:

Clete
February 11th, 2004, 05:57 PM
Freak,
I will no longer repeat myself. You continually try to obfuscate the point and I will not tolerate it any longer.

For the last time your Biblical position is that miracles have not ceased and my Biblical position is that they have. The point is that my position is in agreement with reality in that any evidence of miracles is totally absent. Unless you can show that miracles are in fact occurring then the weakness of your position is self-evident.

So put up or shut up Freak. Show me a real miracle or admit that they haven't been happening.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

Freak
February 11th, 2004, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Freak,

For the last time your Biblical position is that miracles have not ceased and my Biblical position is that they have. Let me remind you of the biblical position...

First of all, we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.

Secondly, at least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Thirdly, God's Word tells us that miracles have a divine purpose that God promises will be carried out:

...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

God says He uses miracles to testify, to confirm of His goodness, His glory, His salvation. Who are you to tell us God doesn't have a purpose for miracles when in fact He does?


The point is that my position is in agreement with reality in that any evidence of miracles is totally absent. But they are not. Someone has already testified of a miracle on here...me, Godrulz, and theo. But that is besides the point, the bible, our objective standard for truth declares that miracles still occur. This alone defeats your position once for all.


Unless you can show that miracles are in fact occurring then the weakness of your position is self-evident. Let's go to the source of truth...

Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.


So put up or shut up Freak. I have given you evidence..God's Word. Either accept it or shut up.

Clete
February 11th, 2004, 09:46 PM
Godrulz,

I have copied a small sampling of miracles and there results from The Plot. It is VERY incomplete and intentionally so. After all, Bob likes to sell these books and it wouldn't do for me to be giving it away in chunks! There are a few here that actually have somewhat positive outcomes but I could have quoted page after page where there isn't a single response that could be construed in any way to be positive. It's no wonder that God wanted to destroy Israel so many times! He was beating His head against a brick wall!

Jesus turn water into wine (Jn. 2:9) - Jesus' disciples believe (Jn. 2:11), Temple complex ignores His ministry (Jn. 2:15), Jews ask Jesus for a "sign" (Jn. 2:18)

Jesus heals nobleman's son (Jn. 4:50) - Nobleman's family believes (Jn. 4:53)

Jesus heals a 38-year infirmity (Jn. 5:8) - Jews seek to kill Jesus (Jn. 5:16)

Jesus heals the man born blind (Jn. 9:7) - Jews admit miracle, deny Christ (Jn. 9:18-34)

Jesus raises Lazarus (Jn. 12:28) - Many believe (Jn. 11:45), But some inform Pharisees (Jn. 11:46), Pharisees plan to kill Him (Jn. 11:47-53), Priests seeks to arrest Him (Jn. 11:54-57)

Voice from heaven endorses Jesus (Jn. 12:28) - Men intentionally misunderstand (Jn. 12:29-30)

"Jesus did many other signs" (Jn. 20:30) - No response in the text

Speaking in foreign languages (Acts 2:4-11) - Some were amazed and perplexed (Acts 2:12), "Others mocked" (Acts 2:13), 3000 repent at Peter's "word" (Acts 2:41)

Apostles do signs and wonders (Acts 2:43) - Conversions occurred daily (Acts 2:47)

Peter heals lame man (Acts 3:6-11) - Sanhedrin arrests apostles (Acts 4:3), 2000 "heard the word" and repent (Acts 4:4), Council threatens apostles (Acts 4:17,21,29)

Believer's assembly place shaken (Acts 4:31) - Believers "spoke with boldness" (Acts 4:31), Ananias lied to God and apostles (Act5:1-3)

Stephen does signs and wonders (6:8) - Synagogue disputes Stephen (Act 6:9), Council accuses Stephen (Acts 6:11), Saul & council kill Stephen (7:58-60)

Paul does miracles in Iconium (Acts 14:3) - Iconium rulers try to kill Paul (Acts 14:5)

Paul heals a cripple in Lystra (Acts 14:8-10) - People worship Paul (Acts 14:11-18), Men of Iconium, Lystra stone Paul (Acts 14:19)



I want to make clear that I post this information to establish, to some degree, some of the Biblical arguments that I have ventured to make on this thread. With that having been done, however I would emphasize that the thrust of my primary argument isn't a Biblical argument but a logical one. And before Freak goes ballistic I will go ahead and repeat once again that my position is BASED on a Biblical premise not an exclusively logical one. I am simply arguing this issue from a point of logic because it lends itself to such an examination easily and a Biblical debate would nearly require the rewriting of Bob's book (or at least five chapters of it) and such a debate would almost certainly be fruitless considering who my primary opponent is.
If you (Godrulz) wish to debate or discuss Acts 9 Dispensationalism and its ramifications after you have read at least the first four chapters of The Plot, I would be more that happy to do so but on a different thread.

God bless you all! (Even you Freak ;) )

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

godrulz
February 11th, 2004, 11:00 PM
I am surprised in 25 years that I have not heard of Acts 9 dispensationalism. I look forward to gaining an understanding of its position.

Freak keeps giving you homework. Have you answered his passages on this thread? Post #s?

The verses you gave are not exhaustive and are historical narratives, not didactic (teaching) passages (like some of Freak's). Some of your verses also seem to support positive aspects of miracles. I honestly do not think your position is tenable just because some reacted negatively. In Acts, it records a response that some jeered, some deliberated and waited, and some believed in response to the preaching of the resurrection. Man's reaction (+ve or -ve) does not dictate God's agenda (gospel, signs and wonders). I think your interpretation grid is too narrow.

I do not think it is fair to say there is no evidence for miracles today. Do not be like the proverbial ostrich in the sand.

theo_victis
February 12th, 2004, 12:12 AM
Clete-

"So put up or shut up Freak. Show me a real miracle or admit that they haven't been happening."

Miracles are kinda hard to post on a board... lol

You wont believe anyways. Your too skeptical. Your to focused on reality versus the nature of God. God is above the laws of the Universe. He can do whatever he pleases. Including miracles....

Hey Clete you put up or shut up... Put up some real evidence they dont happen. All your doing is claiming were lying... or that freak is lying. But where is your evidence? thats right you have none.

Let me ask you a question:

Why does it matter to you if miracles happen or not? Why all the fuss?

Freak
February 12th, 2004, 05:57 AM
Originally posted by godrulz

I am surprised in 25 years that I have not heard of Acts 9 dispensationalism. I look forward to gaining an understanding of its position.

Freak keeps giving you homework. Have you answered his passages on this thread? Post #s?

The verses you gave are not exhaustive and are historical narratives, not didactic (teaching) passages (like some of Freak's). Some of your verses also seem to support positive aspects of miracles. I honestly do not think your position is tenable just because some reacted negatively. In Acts, it records a response that some jeered, some deliberated and waited, and some believed in response to the preaching of the resurrection. Man's reaction (+ve or -ve) does not dictate God's agenda (gospel, signs and wonders). I think your interpretation grid is too narrow.

I do not think it is fair to say there is no evidence for miracles today. Do not be like the proverbial ostrich in the sand. :up: Clete's logic is extremely flawed. Is premise is build on the negative responses from those who witnessed a miracle. This leads him to believe miracles have ceased. Quite bizarre. Someone can only say the same thing about the preaching of the gospel. Those whom witnessed the preaching of the gospel, generally speaking, were indifferent, offended ("preaching of the cross is foolishness to those perishing"). But, we still preach the gospel for it's the power of God unto salvation.

We still embrace and desire miracles, for we still desire to see people experience the ministry of healing & deliverance from demons. Clete's view on miracles does violence to the Body of Christ's mission to heal the sick and deliver those in bondage. We know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:7; 14:26), to equip people to share the gospel (Matthew 10:19,20; Luke 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:13), and to show God's compassion and concern for His people (examples: Matthew 14:13-14; 20:29-34; Mark 1:40-42). Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.

Clete
February 12th, 2004, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by godrulz

Freak keeps giving you homework. Have you answered his passages on this thread? Post #s?
I have intentionally disregarded most of his Biblical arguments because, as I've said, this issue can be resolved quite nicely by the presentation of extrabiblical, verifiable physical evidence that physical miracles have happened in modern times.
The absence of such evidence does not prove that my entire theological construct is correct, only that this one conclusion that flows from my theology is correct. Conversely the presentation of some sort of proof that physical miracles have continued to the present time would prove yours and Freak's theological conclusion but not necessarily your entire theological construct by which you came to that conclusion. The point being that you and Freak probably did not come to the conclusion that miracles have continued by the same reasoning and you may therefore have you own disagreements with Freak on more minor issues and yet a third person, Theo for example, may have yet another mid set that led him to this conclusion, who knows and who wants to open that big fat can of worms. If we simply focus on determining whether or not physical miracles are in fact actually happening then we can all avoid the headaches involved in trying to reconstruct someone elseís theology from the ground up.


The verses you gave are not exhaustive and are historical narratives, not didactic (teaching) passages (like some of Freak's).
I believe this to be somewhat of a false dichotomy. Are you saying that the Bible does not teach us through the use of history?


Some of your verses also seem to support positive aspects of miracles. I honestly do not think your position is tenable just because some reacted negatively.
Haven't I already said more than once that when the reaction to a miracle is positive that reaction is acknowledged? I have never said that absolutely every single person who ever witnessed a miracle hated God. What I have said is hat it is more than just "some" that "reacted negatively". In fact it is the positive responses that are a tiny minority.


In Acts, it records a response that some jeered, some deliberated and waited, and some believed in response to the preaching of the resurrection. Man's reaction (+ve or -ve) does not dictate God's agenda (gospel, signs and wonders). I think your interpretation grid is too narrow.
Well please don't read too much into this. The generally negative reaction to miracles is simply one reason that God would choose not to perform them. It is not the only or even the primary reason that I believe that He has stopped. Bob's chapter on miracles goes on for 71 pages establishing in several ways that miracles are not to be expected at this time.


I do not think it is fair to say there is no evidence for miracles today. Do not be like the proverbial ostrich in the sand.
Nobody has given me any to ignore yet, Godrulz! None! Not even one single piece of evidence that can in any way be verified. For that matter, nobody has even given me anything that could honestly be called a miracle never mind evidence that it actually happened.

Resting in His Sufficient Grace,
Clete

godrulz
February 12th, 2004, 07:52 AM
Exactly. Sounds more than reasonable (Freak). Volumes can be written saying that God birthed His church in power, but now resorts to natural means?! The Spirit of God blows like the wind. I am thankful His reality is still demonstrated today in a supernatural way. I love my anti-charismatic friends, but honestly believe they are wrong on this point (charismata, healing, deliverance, signs/wonders). Word + Spirit= truth. I must reject a view that limits the Sovereign God. There really is not a good reason for Satan to run rampant using supernatural wiles while God and His Church are left to impotent, natural means.

Experience is one thing, but I think there is merit to exegeting Freak's passages. Historical narratives do have truth content, but a didactic passage provides doctrine. I think Clete is reading an assumption into and coming to a wrong conclusion from the list of historical narrative miracles. This would be avoided by balancing the narratives with didactic passages.

Clete
February 12th, 2004, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by theo_victis

Clete-

"So put up or shut up Freak. Show me a real miracle or admit that they haven't been happening."

Miracles are kinda hard to post on a board... lol
Names, phone numbers, addresses, verifiable details, etc. aren't hard at all to post on a board.


You wont believe anyways. Your too skeptical.
You could be right! I've never been presented with any evidence before so I couldn't say. Let's cross that bridge when we get to it, shall we?


Your to focused on reality versus the nature of God.
The nature of God is reality!


God is above the laws of the Universe. He can do whatever he pleases. Including miracles....
No kidding! I have not denied this.


Hey Clete you put up or shut up... Put up some real evidence they donít happen.
The absence of evidence that they have happened is evidence that they have not. As is the overwhelming positive reaction to the so called miracles that have been brought up so far on this thread.


All your doing is claiming were lying... or that freak is lying.
Freak is a liar in that he is intellectually dishonest. He intentionally argues against points that have not been made and then thinks that he had really done something great. If he were simply misunderstanding my argument it would be different but hat is not the case.
However I do not believe that either you or Freak are making things up when it comes to believing in miracles. I simply believe that you have both been deceived, either by your own selves or by others or both, but being wrong is not the same as lying.


Let me ask you a question:
Why does it matter to you if miracles happen or not? Why all the fuss?
It matters for the same reason that it matters that we are not to place ourselves under the law. It also matters because God wants us to live in accordance with reality so that unbelievers don't think Christians are nut cases. It also matters because miracles foster unbelief not faith. It matters for a lot of reasons.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

godrulz
February 12th, 2004, 08:14 AM
It also matters because the Church will be disobeying the Great Commission preaching the gospel without power and signs following. It matters that the ministry of Jesus will be limited. He came to oppose sin, sickness, and Satan. The Church with the Spirit are to continue this ministry. Believers will remain sick and in bondage, while unbelievers may not be reached as effectively. The Spirit is grieved and quenched by bad theology or unbelief. It is not a salvific issue, but is important for the glory of God and the good of man.

Clete
February 12th, 2004, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by Freak

:up: Clete's logic is extremely flawed. Is premise is build on the negative responses from those who witnessed a miracle. This leads him to believe miracles have ceased. Quite bizarre.
If this were true it would be bizarre. Fortunately for me, it's not true.
I have never said that my premise is built upon the negative relation to miracles, only that this is ONE reason why God would choose to not perform them in the Dispensation of Grace which is rooted solely in faith.


Someone can only say the same thing about the preaching of the gospel. Those who witnessed the preaching of the gospel, generally speaking, were indifferent, offended ("preaching of the cross is foolishness to those perishing"). But, we still preach the gospel for it's the power of God unto salvation.
Miracles and the gospel are not the same things Freak! It is the Gospel that people reject more readily when they witness a miracle. You are a veritable straw man factory!


We still embrace and desire miracles, for we still desire to see people experience the ministry of healing & deliverance from demons.
It is an evil and adulterous generation that seeks after a sign.
I think it was Jesus who said something along those lines.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

theo_victis
February 12th, 2004, 08:43 AM
here is a link to my teams trip update logs:

http://www.adventures.org/a/reports/r3re.asp?id=625

okay, just read those posts by our team leaders and there is a testimony for what i was speaking of. (read the second one down)

The miracles i saw:

a women walk who wasnt able to for 4 or 5 years i cant quite remember the number

a team member being healed

a guards swollen ankle being healed

a skin disease or rash ( i am obviously not a doctor) being healed

and myself being healed from malaria

those and the miracles from the bible i claim as truth. I hope the link satisfies you. I am not going to give out addresses and phone #s because it wouldnt be fair to their privacy. But i know they would testify to what i said. And the website should as well.

theo_victis
February 12th, 2004, 09:01 AM
The absence of evidence that they have happened is evidence that they have not. As is the overwhelming positive reaction to the so called miracles that have been brought up so far on this thread.

That is not evidence that is ignorance.


It is an evil and adulterous generation that seeks after a sign.

and you arent mister show me a miracle!!!!!! things can go to ways...


However I do not believe that either you or Freak are making things up when it comes to believing in miracles. I simply believe that you have both been deceived, either by your own selves or by others or both, but being wrong is not the same as lying.

How am i decieved? Paul must have been decieved when he saw a vision on the way to damascus!!! Surely that wasnt God! lol lol lol

The disciples must have been liars and decieved when they thought Jesus' body was ressurrected from the dead. Christians must be decieved.

See, if your going to apply your logic to me apply it to everything for i have just as much proof as the disciples did that there miracles and the things they experianced occurred.



It also matters because miracles foster unbelief not faith. It matters for a lot of reasons.

THey do foster unbelief that is true. But they also create stronger faith. Who says the miracles are for the unbeliever? Another point i will throw at you is a lot of times the hardest things we deal with is truth. When you see the truth it is beckoning for you to change your life and a lot of unbelievers are unwilling to give up there lives, carry their crosses and change their lives.


It goes both ways. Dont criticize God. God obviously uses them for a reason. like i said before miracles are for the unbeliever/reciever and the believer/giver.

The unbeliever:

so they will recieve the effects of the miracle.
so their beliefs will be challenged

Believer:

To strengthen the faith
to do the service of God



there you go....

LightSon
February 12th, 2004, 12:03 PM
Originally posted by theo_victis
...
The miracles i saw:

a women walk who wasnt able to for 4 or 5 years i cant quite remember the number

a team member being healed

a guards swollen ankle being healed

a skin disease or rash ( i am obviously not a doctor) being healed

and myself being healed from malaria

those and the miracles from the bible i claim as truth. I hope the link satisfies you. I am not going to give out addresses and phone #s because it wouldnt be fair to their privacy. But i know they would testify to what i said. And the website should as well.
Many folks (saved and unsaved) have recuperated from physical ailments without a faith healer being present or single prayer being offered. God designed the human body to "get well". Is it a miracle when anyone recovers from a disease? If so, these are what I call the "covet" miracles.

Have you ever raised someone from the dead? Have you ever made someone who was born blind to see? Or have you ever been a witness to it?

Suppose I buy into what you are saying. Can we go find a quadriplegic and ask God to heal them on the spot? Is God obligated to do this? Have you ever seen this level of miracle?

If God is doing overt miracles today, I would sincerely like to know this. So far all you and Freak have offered is ambiguous at best. I do not question God, His Word or His ability. I simply have a sense that God chooses not to work in an overt way at this time. Prove me wrong by showing me a person alive today who was documented as dead for 3 days and resuscitated.

Clete
February 12th, 2004, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by godrulz
I think Clete is reading an assumption into and coming to a wrong conclusion from the list of historical narrative miracles. This would be avoided by balancing the narratives with didactic passages.

You might have a point here if there were only 10 or 12 examples to pull such information from and if this were the only source that brought me to this conclusion. Fortunately neither happens to be the case. There are over 300, that's three HUNDRED miracles recorded and we can look at the results of every single one of them. And as I said before, this is not what I base my position on in the first place. My theological position is quite complex and speaks to this issue from several different directions. The only reason I posted this hand full of examples is because I had put forward the idea that miracles foster unbelief and I was asked to establish that and I wished to grant that request.
So one last time so that there can be no confusion...
The fact that the general reaction to miracles is unbelief is NOT the basis upon which I draw the conclusion that miracles no longer happen. (But it sure doesnít hurt my case any either.)

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

Clete
February 12th, 2004, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by LightSon

Many folks (saved and unsaved) have recuperated from physical ailments without a faith healer being present or single prayer being offered. God designed the human body to "get well". Is it a miracle when anyone recovers from a disease? If so, these are what I call the "covet" miracles.

Have you ever raised someone from the dead? Have you ever made someone who was born blind to see? Or have you ever been a witness to it?

Suppose I buy into what you are saying. Can we go find a quadriplegic and ask God to heal them on the spot? Is God obligated to do this? Have you ever seen this level of miracle?

If God is doing overt miracles today, I would sincerely like to know this. So far all you and Freak have offered is ambiguous at best. I do not question God, His Word or His ability. I simply have a sense that God chooses not to work in an overt way at this time. Prove me wrong by showing me a person alive today who was documented as dead for 3 days and resuscitated.
Don't hold you breath Lightson! I've been asking for the same thing for almost 300 posts now. I'm beginning to think they don't have anything to show us.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

Clete
February 12th, 2004, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by theo_victis

That is not evidence that is ignorance.
Yeah, okay, what ever.


and you arenít mister show me a miracle!!!!!! things can go to ways...
Stop arguing against yourself! When I ask you to show me a miracle, I'm challenging you to prove that what you claim is happen, is in fact actually happening. I am not asking God to perform a miracle you ding bat! Nor would I want Him too. I'm not just spewing words when I say that I am resting in His SUFFICIENT Grace, I actually mean it.


How am I deceived? Paul must have been deceived when he saw a vision on the way to Damascus!!! Surely that wasnít God! lol lol lol
Surely you must be Freak logged in under a different user name! I thought for sure he was the only one capable of such a lunatic argument as this!
Are you suggesting that you have seen a vision of Jesus Christ? Surely not! Perhaps your suggesting that I deny that any miracle has ever happened. No? Then what? What the hell point could you possibly be making that would make any sense whatsoever?
If you cannot argue the points I bring up do not just start marking crap up and then argue with that. It makes you look stupid and pisses me off!


The disciples must have been liars and deceived when they thought Jesus' body was resurrected from the dead. Christians must be deceived.
I take back what I said about not considering you a liar. There is no possible way that you could have misunderstood my position to this extent. I have already twice given you access to geologic and historical evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Further to suggest that I do not believe in the resurrection directly implies that I am not even a Christian. I demand that you repent and apologize for this lie!


See, if your going to apply your logic to me apply it to everything for I have just as much proof as the disciples did that there miracles and the things they experienced occurred.
Really? The present it! I'd love to see this proof of yours. I can guarantee that the apostles would have been able to do so had someone asked them to just as Jesus did.


They do foster unbelief that is true. But they also create stronger faith. Who says the miracles are for the unbeliever?
Nobody has said that they are for the unbeliever. You've missed the point and I don't feel like explaining it for a fiftieth time.


Another point i will throw at you is a lot of times the hardest things we deal with is truth. When you see the truth it is beckoning for you to change your life and a lot of unbelievers are unwilling to give up there lives, carry their crosses and change their lives.
Okay maybe you didn't miss the point after all. People's natural reaction to having the truth shoved down their throat is to shove back.


It goes both ways. Donít criticize God. God obviously uses them for a reason.
I don't criticize God at all. He did indeed have a reason for miracles. I submit simply that He has a reason for not performing them right now.

Resting in His sufficient Grace,
Clete

theo_victis
February 12th, 2004, 03:15 PM
this is from lightson-


Many folks (saved and unsaved) have recuperated from physical ailments without a faith healer being present or single prayer being offered. God designed the human body to "get well". Is it a miracle when anyone recovers from a disease? If so, these are what I call the "covet" miracles.


So it just so happens that after my team prayed over a little african boy his skin disease disappeared. It must of been the body healing itself..... instantly right before our eyes... and like the amazing thing is that we happened to be praying for him. WHat a coincidence! LOL your dumb.

Also a women who wasnt able to walk for four or five years asked us to pray for her and we did. THE AMAZING PART was that she got up and walked right after we finished praying for her. What a coincidence.

You know its amazing how the body has such great timing... and the kicker of it all was i thought it was from God. Man i must be dumb....


lol

get a grip on life.




clete-


I'm challenging you to prove that what you claim is happen, is in fact actually happening.

i have given you the best proof i have and you have yet to reply to it.... i am not talking about my testimony to these things but the website i posted.

I will give you the benifet of the doubt, you probably just missed my post that had that.

quoting myself-


here is a link to my teams trip update logs:

http://www.adventures.org/a/reports/r3re.asp?id=625

there you have it again....


Surely you must be Freak logged in under a different user name! I thought for sure he was the only one capable of such a lunatic argument as this!

I am not freak logged on under another name......


If you cannot argue the points I bring up do not just start marking crap up and then argue with that. It makes you look stupid and pisses me off!

okay i will prove i am not freak (no offense freak) by apologizing and letting you know that my intent wasnt to piss you off.



Are you suggesting that you have seen a vision of Jesus Christ? Surely not! Perhaps your suggesting that I deny that any miracle has ever happened. No? Then what? What the hell point could you possibly be making that would make any sense whatsoever?

yes i have seen a vision from Christ ( i am not speaking figuartively either). But i am having enough trouble proving to you that there are miracles that occur today so we wont go there quite yet.

My point was you cant prove the things that happend to paul happend as much as i can "prove" what i witnessed.

maybe this clears it up....


I don't criticize God at all. He did indeed have a reason for miracles. I submit simply that He has a reason for not performing them right now.

thank you for clearing up your point... i understand what you are saying better.. but still disagree.


Really? The present it! I'd love to see this proof of yours. I can guarantee that the apostles would have been able to do so had someone asked them to just as Jesus did.

my testimony... that was my point, i tell you with truth to what i have seen, same with the disciples. I am not saying that what i witnessed was more important than what they witnessed (just making that clear)..

I am saying it takes a degree of faith with supernatural events.

theo_victis
February 12th, 2004, 03:22 PM
Clete-

"Further to suggest that I do not believe in the resurrection directly implies that I am not even a Christian. I demand that you repent and apologize for this lie! "

I never said that you arent a Christian.. I was being sarcastic. I am not apologizing for something that i didnt say. But i am sorry for misleading you into thinking i meant this. Man i gotta work on wording my posts better...... and plus need to work on grammar. lol

freelight
February 12th, 2004, 04:26 PM
Clete continues to cry, whine, babble, get disgruntled and demand for evidence of miracles.....but will not take the scriptures into account and put his faith in God for all things, including the miraculous (whatever faith shall afford - for the truth of Jesus teaching remains - 'let it be according to your faith') - Jesus taught faith could move mountains, transform events - even if just the size of a mustard seed - but Cletes faith may not even be found under a microscope....until he sees 'proof'. tsk tsk tsk :rolleyes:

We walk by faith not by sight! Faith that demands to see physical proof first....IS NOT FAITH! I think Clete needs to discover what the dynamics of faith include.....and that this faith Jesus taught has within it great, if not divine power.

Who will Clete believe? Bob or Jesus :confused:


paul

Freak
February 12th, 2004, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by godrulz

Exactly. Sounds more than reasonable (Freak). Volumes can be written saying that God birthed His church in power, but now resorts to natural means?! The Spirit of God blows like the wind. I am thankful His reality is still demonstrated today in a supernatural way. I love my anti-charismatic friends, but honestly believe they are wrong on this point (charismata, healing, deliverance, signs/wonders). Word + Spirit= truth. I must reject a view that limits the Sovereign God. There really is not a good reason for Satan to run rampant using supernatural wiles while God and His Church are left to impotent, natural means.

Experience is one thing, but I think there is merit to exegeting Freak's passages. Historical narratives do have truth content, but a didactic passage provides doctrine. I think Clete is reading an assumption into and coming to a wrong conclusion from the list of historical narrative miracles. This would be avoided by balancing the narratives with didactic passages. Excellent.

Clete, is failing to deal with the Scriptural truths as presented by me...we know why he continues. Don't we. It's because he's incapable of doing so.

But, to give him the benefit of the doubt let's examine the Biblical foundations for why we believe miracles are for today...

First of all, we know in the Holy Scripture that it declares that spiritual gifts, which includes the gift of miracles, are given to serve the Body of Christ.

1 Corinthians 12:7

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

1 Corinthians 14:26

What then shall we say, brothers? When you come together, everyone has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. All of these must be done for the strengthening of the church.

To equip people to share the gospel.

Matthew 10:19,20

But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

Luke 4:18

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,"

1 Corinthians 2:13

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

To show God's compassion and concern for His people.

Matthew 14:13-14

When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. 14When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.

Matthew 20:29-34

As Jesus and his disciples were leaving Jericho, a large crowd followed him. Two blind men were sitting by the roadside, and when they heard that Jesus was going by, they shouted, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
The crowd rebuked them and told them to be quiet, but they shouted all the louder, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on us!"
Jesus stopped and called them. "What do you want me to do for you?" he asked.
"Lord," they answered, "we want our sight."
Jesus had compassion on them and touched their eyes. Immediately they received their sight and followed him.

Mark 1:40-42

A man with leprosy came to him and begged him on his knees, "If you are willing, you can make me clean."
Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cured.

Nowhere in Scripture are we told this gift was taken away from the church.

In fact we are told the gift of miracles is given to the Body...

Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

Secondly, at least six times in Paulís writings he either commands Christians to follow his example as he follows Christís example, or he approves of those who follow his example (1 Cor. 4:16-17; 11:1; Phil. 3:17; 4:9; 1 Thess. 1:6; 2 Thess. 3:9). Paul did not make a distinction between those elements in his life that were miraculous and those that are not viewed as miraculous. Paul copied Christ. Christ had miraculous elements in his life, and so did Paul. Clete, are we only to imitate those nonmiraculous elements in the lives of Jesus and Paul? Are they simply to be examples for moral living but not for miraculous ministry? Paul makes no such distinction when he exhorts us to imitate him.

Thirdly, God's Word tells us that miracles have a divine purpose that God promises will be carried out:

...how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

God says He uses miracles to testify, to confirm of His goodness, His glory, His salvation. Who are you to tell us God doesn't have a purpose for miracles when in fact He does? If He gave His Body the gift of miracles, which He has, then it is safe to say He still performs miracles. This despite what you personally believe.

Clete, Theo, Godrulz, and myself have all shared (along with several other posters) our personal encounters with miracles. I have witnessed hundreds of miracles. Hundreds of people being healed and delivered from demons. You reject my testimony, you reject theo's and you reject Godrulz's. So, we now turn to the Biblical record which is clearly in our favor. Now, we ask you to deal with the reality of God's Word on this subject...