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CherubRam
April 25th, 2016, 07:40 AM
Jude 1:4. Because you are unaware that certain men have sneaked in, who are of a ancient order to their condemnation...

Jude 1:4.

πάλαι pálai, pal'-ahee; palai denotes "long ago, of old," Heb 1:1, (http://www.gospelhall.org/bible/bible.php?passage=Heb%201:1,) RV, "of old time" (AV, "in time past"); in Jude 1:4, (http://www.gospelhall.org/bible/bible.php?passage=Jude%201:4,)
Long time, Old time, Ancient order.
Jeremiah 11:9 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+11:9&version=NIV)
Then the Lord said to me, “There is a conspiracy among the people of Judah and those who live in Jerusalem.

Acts 6:9 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+6:9&version=NIV)
Opposition arose, however, from members of the Synagogue of the Freedmen (as it was called)—Jews of Cyrene and Alexandria as well as the provinces of Cilicia and Asia—who began to argue with Stephen.

According to the Acts of the Apostles, the Synagogue of the Libertines (e.g. KJV, Wycliffe Bible) or Synagogue of the Freedmen (e.g. NKJV, NRSV) were a group of Hellenistic Jews who disputed with Saint Stephen (Acts 6:9).

The Freedmen were a secret society of Hellenistic Jews.

CherubRam
April 25th, 2016, 07:41 AM
The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Book of Enoch imply that Michael is a man born here on earth, which does not agree with verse 9 of the Book of Jude.
In regards to Jude, verse 9, when did the Arch Angel Michael dispute with Satan, about the body of Moses? Scripture does not say, and nowhere else is it mentioned in Scripture.
The Assumption of Moses, which is also called the Testament of Moses. See: (When Critics Ask) p.549 and the (Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties) p.430 for more info. Peter David's in (Hard Sayings of the Bible) p.754-756 says that we have most of the Assumption of Moses, except for the ending, which presumably contained that verse.
Origen did not use the book of Jude in his forming of the new testament, because of the insertion of verse nine or Origen did not use the Book of Jude because he thought it was a Gnostic writing.
The Book of Jude verse 9.
Yet Michael the Arch Angel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebukes thee.
Catholics refer to this verse and claim that it is quoting a non-canonical scripture called the Assumption of Moses, in an attempt to approve the principle of Sola Scriptura (The Bible only for doctrine).
The logic for this I assume to be the following: If the Bible quotes from a non-canonical book, then the Bible is validating the authenticity of that book, as inspired by God to the same level as the Bible itself. Consequently, any doctrinal teaching in that book not taught by the Bible itself, must in any case be just as inspired as the Bible, thus validating the authority of Catholic Tradition.
By this logic, Sola Scriptura is proposed, and the extra-biblical book is then assumed to be the "inspired word of God," on the same level with the authority of Scripture. So what of this logic, and what proof is there that the Jude 9 quotes this non-canonical book? Well, it was claimed by early church writers- Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and Didymus that Jude 9 is a quotation from the book, The Assumption of Moses, yet interestingly enough, there is apparently no surviving portion of that "pseudepigraphical" book, containing the passage that exists today, from which to validate or even investigate that claim.

Most Christians are not aware that the bible validates the Book of Enoch as scripture. It's my opinion that because verse 9 of Jude contradicts the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Book of Enoch and the other parts of the bible, it must have been inserted into the book of Jude.
Chapter 40 Book of Enoch.
1 And after that I saw thousands of thousands and ten thousand times ten thousand, I saw a multitude 2 beyond number and reckoning, who stood before the Lord of Spirits. And on the four sides of the Lord of Spirits I saw four presence's, [different from those that sleep not,] ( The difference between those that sleep not, is those that need sleep ) and I learnt their names: for the angel that went with me made known to me their names, and showed me all the hidden things. 3 And I heard the voices of those four presences as they uttered praises before the Lord of glory. 4,5 The first voice blesses the Lord of Spirits forever and ever. And the second voice I heard blessing 6 the Elect One and the elect ones who hang upon the Lord of Spirits. And the third voice I heard pray and intercede for those who dwell on the earth and supplicate in the name of the Lord of Spirits. 7 And I heard the fourth voice fending off the Satan's and forbidding them to come before the Lord 8 of Spirits to accuse them who dwell on the earth. After that I asked the angel of peace who went with me, who showed me everything that is hidden: 'Who are these four presences which I have 9 seen and whose words I have heard and written down?' And he said to me: 'This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.' 10 And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days...




Jude 1: 9. But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
NOTE: According to Origen the book of Jude is of Gnostic origin, unless he was only referring to verse nine of Jude only; meaning that verse nine is a Gnostic insertion.

CherubRam
April 25th, 2016, 09:45 AM
In regards to Jude 1:4. Since the men presently among them can not be ancient, or from an ancient time, then the correct translation would be "ancient order."

CherubRam
April 25th, 2016, 09:53 AM
Book of Jude Notes

KJV: old ordained
NIV: long ago
KJ21: foreordained of old
HCSB: long ago



Book of Jude: Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
Footnotes:
Jude 1:1 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1&version=HCSB#en-HCSB-30672) Other mss read sanctified
Jude 1:5 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1&version=HCSB#en-HCSB-30676) Other mss read Jesus/Joshua, God, or God Christ
Jude 1:5 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1&version=HCSB#en-HCSB-30676) Other mss place first after remind you
Jude 1:7 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1&version=HCSB#en-HCSB-30678) Lit and went after other flesh
Jude 1:12 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1&version=HCSB#en-HCSB-30683) Or like spots
Jude 1:14 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1&version=HCSB#en-HCSB-30685) Or came
Jude 1:15 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1&version=HCSB#en-HCSB-30686) Lit convict all
Jude 1:19 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1&version=HCSB#en-HCSB-30690) Or natural
Jude 1:25 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1&version=HCSB#en-HCSB-30696) Other mss omit through Jesus Christ our Lord
Jude 1:25 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1&version=HCSB#en-HCSB-30696) Other mss omit before all time


Book of Jude: New International Version (NIV)
Footnotes:

Jude 1:1 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1&version=NIV#en-NIV-30674) Or by; or in
Jude 1:4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1&version=NIV#en-NIV-30677) Or individuals who were marked out for condemnation
Jude 1:5 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1&version=NIV#en-NIV-30678) Some early manuscripts Jesus
Jude 1:9 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1&version=NIV#en-NIV-30682) Jude is alluding to the Jewish Testament of Moses (approximately the first century AD.).
Jude 1:15 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1&version=NIV#en-NIV-30688) From the Jewish First Book of Enoch (approximately the first century b.c.)
Jude 1:23 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude+1&version=NIV#en-NIV-30696) The Greek manuscripts of these verses vary at several points.


In regards to verse nine in the Book of Jude:
Chrysostom and Jerome mention Jude's quoting from a non-canonical sources as the reason it being disputed by some as canonical.

CherubRam
April 26th, 2016, 12:00 PM
Enoch Moses Elijah Jesus in Heaven

NIV
Deuteronomy 34
5 And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said. 6 He buried him[a (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+34&version=NIV#fen-NIV-5846a)] in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is. 7 Moses was a hundred and twenty years old when he died, yet his eyes were not weak nor his strength gone. 8 The Israelites grieved for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days, until the time of weeping and mourning was over.
Footnotes:
Deuteronomy 34:6 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy+34&version=NIV#en-NIV-5846). Or, He was buried


Brenton Septuagint Translation
Deuteronomy 34
5 (http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/34-5.htm)So Moses the servant of the Lord died in the land of Moab by the word of the Lord. 6 (http://biblehub.com/deuteronomy/34-6.htm)And they buried him in Gai near the house of Phogor; and no one has seen his sepulchre to this day.

Genesis 5:24 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+5:24&version=NIV)
Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.
Hebrews 11:5 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+11:5&version=NIV)
By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
2 Kings 2:1 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Kings+2:1&version=NIV)
When the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal.
2 Kings 2:11 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Kings+2:11&version=NIV)
As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.


Matthew 17:3 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+17:3&version=NIV)
Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
Mark 9:4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+9:4&version=NIV)
And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.
Luke 9:30 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+9:30&version=NIV)
Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus.

Mark 16:19 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+16:19&version=NIV)
After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.
Luke 24:51 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+24:51&version=NIV)
While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven.
John 3:13 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+3:13&version=NIV)
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Acts 1:11 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+1:11&version=NIV)
“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”


It is believed by some that Moses did not die, but was also taken into Heaven.

CherubRam
April 26th, 2016, 12:13 PM
Jude
1. Jude, a servant of Yahshua the Messiah, and brother of Jacob, and to them that are sanctified by Yahwah the Father, also called and saved by Yahshua the Messiah.
2. May mercy, peace, and devotion, be multiplied to you.
3. Loved, I was eager to write to you about the salvation we share, it was necessary for me to write to you, and encourage you to earnestly contend for the faith that was given to the saints.
4. Because you are unaware that certain men have sneaked in, who are of a ancient order to their condemnation, these ungodly men turn the grace of our God into immorality, and deny that the only God is Yahwah, or that our lord Yahshua is the Messiah.
5. I will remind you although you once knew this, how Yahwah, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that did not believe.
6. Those messengers did not keep their first estate, and they were removed from their place, and He has reserved for them everlasting chains of darkness for that great day of judgment.
7. Just like Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in the same manner, they gave themselves over to fornication, and strange flesh.
8. And they will suffer the vengeance of eternal fire, as a set example; as also along with these filthy dreamers who also defile their flesh.
9. They say evil things about dignitaries and despise their dominion; they say evil things about what they know nothing about.
10. But what they do know naturally like brute beasts; in those things they have corrupted themselves.

CherubRam
April 26th, 2016, 12:28 PM
Note: The name "James" did not exist in bible days.

CherubRam
April 26th, 2016, 12:32 PM
Note:The English form "Jesus" was not seen nor spoken until AFTER the year 1525...
when Sir William Tyndale, a Protestant Reformer from Oxford, England - INVENTED it!

CherubRam
April 26th, 2016, 12:36 PM
Note: It is a historical fact that the name of God and of His Christ, have been removed from the ancient text of the New Testament.

CherubRam
April 27th, 2016, 07:27 AM
What, no questions?

chrysostom
April 27th, 2016, 07:33 AM
what are you talking about?