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Samie
April 23rd, 2016, 06:33 PM
What is it?

It is the lie that people are born spiritually dead in sin.

If indeed people are born spiritually dead in sin, then they are born NOT in Christ, because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). And to be NOT in Christ is to be apart from Christ. And apart from Christ, man can do NOTHING (John 15:5): he cannot place his faith in Christ; he cannot accept His gift of salvation; he cannot repent and overcome evil with good. IOW, he is doomed.

But Scriptures teach otherwise.

Adam could have, by his own death that day he sinned, paid the penalty for his sin, but that would be his eternal end. He could have paid for his sin God hates, but God would have eternally lost the sinner He loves. So right on that same day Adam fell into sin, God implemented the plan of redemption He devised before the foundation of the world (2 Tim 1:8-10). God's plan made it possible for man to not only pay for the penalty of his own sin, but also at the same time, give him another shot at eternal life. That plan found fulfillment in the life, death and resurrection of our Lord. No wonder Christ is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world!!! Rev 13:8

God through Christ fashioned humanity into the Body of Christ on the cross thereby creating the One New Man: Christ the Head, humanity (Jews and Gentiles) the Body (Eph 2:11-19). When the Head died, the Body died with Him (2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9); when the Head resurrected, the Body was made alive TOGETHER with Him (Eph 2: 4-6; Col 2:13), born again into a living hope of life eternal (1 Pet 1:3).

Now that people are alive, God commands all to repent (Acts 17:30) and given faith (Rom 12:3) so they can please God (Heb 11:6) and gain victory over the world (1 John 5:4), they have His Power (Phil 4:13) to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). Overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5) and will be seated with Christ on His throne, Who Himself is an overcomer.KJV Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.Scriptures warn against persistence in believing a lie.2 Thessalonians 2:10-11 . . . because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lieKnowing the truth yet persisting to believe a lie is siding with the father of lies. John 8:44

Epoisses
April 23rd, 2016, 09:03 PM
Men are born totally dead in sin. This is our natural state apart from any grace exerted by God on our behalf. Of course grace leads us to Christ and repentance so our condition isn't hopeless. You will never call on a savior to save you from sin until you see yourself as totally sinful. All our righteousness is as filthy rags to a just and holy God. Human depravity is a biblical concept that almost all Christians agree on so it's not a lie. The lie is thinking you have some goodness inside you when the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.

Samie
April 23rd, 2016, 09:27 PM
Men are born totally dead in sin. . . .Scriptures, please. Sola Scriptura.

Samie
April 23rd, 2016, 09:33 PM
Why do I ask for Scriptures?

Because people simply say things and parade it as truth. They say people are born dead in sin. But when asked for Scriptures they can't provide any. They cite generalities that occur AFTER one is born.

dodge
April 23rd, 2016, 09:45 PM
Scriptures, please. Sola Scriptura.

According to scripture we start off with corruptible seed until we are born again.

1Pe 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Samie
April 23rd, 2016, 10:50 PM
According to scripture we start off with corruptible seed until we are born again.

1Pe 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.Start off with corruptible seed until we are born again? And when are people born again? Just 20 verses earlier, scripture says when are people born again:NAS 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the deadMade alive TOGETHER with Christ when He resurrected (Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13), we were born again into a living hope through the resurrection of Christ.

And that's long before we were physically born. We are born already spiritually alive, instead of spiritually dead in sin.

Epoisses
April 24th, 2016, 02:00 PM
Why do I ask for Scriptures?

Because people simply say things and parade it as truth. They say people are born dead in sin. But when asked for Scriptures they can't provide any. They cite generalities that occur AFTER one is born.

OK Samie, let's see if you believe the scriptures when they go against your pet theories.

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. Rom. 3:9-18

There is none that doeth good, not even one.

Totton Linnet
April 24th, 2016, 02:04 PM
While we were yet dead in trespasses and sins Christ died for the ungodly.

When we hear the gospel God shines His light upon our darkened souls and we come ALIVE

Samie
April 25th, 2016, 02:38 PM
OK Samie, let's see if you believe the scriptures when they go against your pet theories.

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. Rom. 3:9-18

There is none that doeth good, not even one.Doing good or bad is done AFTER one is born. Not before or during birth. This thread is the lie many honestly believe as truth and that lie is "people are born spiritually dead in sin". Your proof verses tell of people doing evil deeds AFTER birth and reaching the age of accountability. Give me a verse that simply hints at "people are born spiritually dead in sin".

While waiting for you to provide what to me is a missing verse from the Bible, here are the words of the wisest man:NAS Ecclesiastes 7:29 "Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."

Samie
April 25th, 2016, 02:45 PM
While we were yet dead in trespasses and sins Christ died for the ungodly.

When we hear the gospel God shines His light upon our darkened souls and we come ALIVESorry. Scriptures say we were made alive TOGETHER with Christ:Ephesians 2:4-5 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with ChristThe phrase "made alive together with" is from a single Greek word "συζωοποιέω". If one is made alive when he believes, then that is made alive one at a time, NOT "made alive together with" Christ.

Epoisses
April 25th, 2016, 11:56 PM
Doing good or bad is done AFTER one is born. Not before or during birth. This thread is the lie many honestly believe as truth and that lie is "people are born spiritually dead in sin". Your proof verses tell of people doing evil deeds AFTER birth and reaching the age of accountability. Give me a verse that simply hints at "people are born spiritually dead in sin".

While waiting for you to provide what to me is a missing verse from the Bible, here are the words of the wisest man:NAS Ecclesiastes 7:29 "Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."

Sin is much deeper than good or bad deeds, Samie. Sin is a fallen nature that all men are born with. We are born sinners we don't become sinners after our first theft of a gumball at age 4. David in the psalms said that he was shaped in iniquity and conceived in sin. We are born sinners.

Samie
April 26th, 2016, 09:57 AM
Sin is much deeper than good or bad deeds, Samie. Sin is a fallen nature that all men are born with. We are born sinners we don't become sinners after our first theft of a gumball at age 4. David in the psalms said that he was shaped in iniquity and conceived in sin. We are born sinners.David did not say he was born spiritually dead in sin.

God told Jeremiah he sanctified him before he was born. Apply that to David, and you will have David who was shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin BUT born sanctified. And our issue is whether people are born spiritually dead in sin or not. Yet thus far, you have not shown any verse that people are born spiritually dead in sin. You have not even tried refuting what the OP discussed.

WonderfulLordJesus
April 26th, 2016, 10:04 AM
Doing good or bad is done AFTER one is born. Not before or during birth.

The Bible does teach man is spiritually dead, until born of the Holy Spirit. It's not scriptural to say babies are born with the Holy Spirit, then lose Him. As others mention, the seed is corruptible.

This is a topic like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, as what practical value is the status of a baby that hasn't yet sinned? If that baby reaches a stage of the knowledge of good and evil, which we call accountability, that child will sin. It's academic where any child began, as we all become members of the none righteous crowd. Nobody was ever in the flesh and without corruption, save Jesus Christ. In practical terms, if you claimed a baby was born with no sin, it doesn't last. If you know anything about babies, they are consummately selfish.

Answer these, then, to indulge your idea. If babies are born of perfect sinlessness, why did the Holy Spirit father Jesus, if there was nothing tainted with the corruptible seed? How do you account for scripture teaching the world inherited Adam's sin? Who else of a human father died an adult, who never sinned? Got any names? If you have no names, doesn't a 100% failure rate of that corruptible seed say something isn't quite right with that baby? Again, when was the baby ever given eternal life by the Holy Spirit? Got one verse on this? When was any baby born again? What you're really saying is the baby is, therefore, born with eternal life, as if some flesh human, Adamic nature of the Garden still exists. Why don't you prove that from scripture? Why don't you look around you, try to find Eden, where all babies must come from, then? Isn't it, rather, that baby is born with a death sentence, as a matter of fact? Do you know of any baby who left this world alive? If not, why not, if they have no sin?

Samie
April 26th, 2016, 11:56 AM
The Bible does teach man is spiritually dead, until born of the Holy Spirit. It's not scriptural to say babies are born with the Holy Spirit, then lose Him. As others mention, the seed is corruptible.

This is a topic like arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, as what practical value is the status of a baby that hasn't yet sinned? If that baby reaches a stage of the knowledge of good and evil, which we call accountability, that child will sin. It's academic where any child began, as we all become members of the none righteous crowd. Nobody was ever in the flesh and without corruption, save Jesus Christ. In practical terms, if you claimed a baby was born with no sin, it doesn't last. If you know anything about babies, they are consummately selfish.

Answer these, then, to indulge your idea. If babies are born of perfect sinlessness, why did the Holy Spirit father Jesus, if there was nothing tainted with the corruptible seed? How do you account for scripture teaching the world inherited Adam's sin? Who else of a human father died an adult, who never sinned? Got any names? If you have no names, doesn't a 100% failure rate of that corruptible seed say something isn't quite right with that baby? Again, when was the baby ever given eternal life by the Holy Spirit? Got one verse on this? When was any baby born again? What you're really saying is the baby is, therefore, born with eternal life, as if some flesh human, Adamic nature of the Garden still exists. Why don't you prove that from scripture? Why don't you look around you, try to find Eden, where all babies must come from, then? Isn't it, rather, that baby is born with a death sentence, as a matter of fact? Do you know of any baby who left this world alive? If not, why not, if they have no sin?When are people born again? Read 1 Pet 1:3. And it's in the OP.

As to the babies, did you know that there will be babies in the new earth (see Isa 11:6-9), even if there's no marriage after the resurrection? So where did those babies come from? The only possible explanation is that they are those who died at infancy and were resurrected together with the righteous. The fact that they are in the new earth simply tells us babies are born OK with God, and not born spiritually dead in sin.

Epoisses
April 26th, 2016, 11:23 PM
David did not say he was born spiritually dead in sin.

God told Jeremiah he sanctified him before he was born. Apply that to David, and you will have David who was shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin BUT born sanctified. And our issue is whether people are born spiritually dead in sin or not. Yet thus far, you have not shown any verse that people are born spiritually dead in sin. You have not even tried refuting what the OP discussed.

You're confusing the natural state of man after the fall with the help we receive from the Holy Spirit. Our natural state at birth is fallen, condemned and dead in sin. Of course we are not left to die in our sins because Christ thru the Holy Spirit is leading all men to the cross and repentance. There have only been a few examples of people who were born filled with the Holy Spirit and those were Jesus and John the Baptist. 99.9999% of all people are not born with the Holy Spirit and need to be born again later in life. How you can even say that people are not born in sin is beyond me. Are you trying to say that some are born righteous?

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom. 5:12

Samie
April 27th, 2016, 08:00 AM
You're confusing the natural state of man after the fall with the help we receive from the Holy Spirit. Our natural state at birth is fallen, condemned and dead in sin.You just keep on rehashing that without providing the biblical basis.

Of course we are not left to die in our sins because Christ thru the Holy Spirit is leading all men to the cross and repentance. There have only been a few examples of people who were born filled with the Holy Spirit and those were Jesus and John the Baptist. 99.9999% of all people are not born with the Holy Spirit and need to be born again later in life.How many times do I have to repeat over and over and over 1 Pet 1:3 that says people have been born again through the resurrection of Jesus? Do you believe 1 Pet 1:3?

How you can even say that people are not born in sin is beyond me.Until now you have not provided that single bible verse hinting that people are born spiritually dead in sin, and instead wonder I am saying people are born spiritually alive when it is what Scriptures tell us. Here again:
1. The wisest person who ever lived said God made people upright or righteous, but they sought out many inventions.
2. The Father sent Jesus into this world in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh. But Jesus was NOT born spiritually dead in sin. Hence, the LIKENESS of sinful flesh is not being born spiritually dead in sin.
3. Jesus was made in the LIKENESS of men. So, the pattern is the LIKENESS of men, and the resulting copy of the pattern is Jesus. Was Jesus born spiritually dead in sin? Of course not. As the pattern, so is the copy. Hence the pattern is not born spiritually dead in sin because neither is the copy.


Are you trying to say that some are born righteous?Yes all are born righteous. Being born In Christ, we are God's righteousness in Him. 2 Cor 5:21


Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom. 5:12All have sinned implies all committed sin, and committing sin is done AFTER one is born, NOT before or during birth. The issue is whether people are born spiritually dead in sin and the verse does not say people are born spiritually dead in sin.

nikolai_42
April 27th, 2016, 08:24 AM
Scriptures, please. Sola Scriptura.

The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Psalm 58:3

So you are left with one of two options :

1. All men are wicked (remember Jeremiah 17:9 - the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked and who can know it..).
2. Only some are wicked (after all, the verse just says the wicked do this). You are still left with some being created one way and others another way. It goes back to nature, not works.

nikolai_42
April 27th, 2016, 08:28 AM
David did not say he was born spiritually dead in sin.

God told Jeremiah he sanctified him before he was born. Apply that to David, and you will have David who was shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin BUT born sanctified. And our issue is whether people are born spiritually dead in sin or not. Yet thus far, you have not shown any verse that people are born spiritually dead in sin. You have not even tried refuting what the OP discussed.

David also implored the Lord not to take His Holy Spirit from him and restore to him the joy of His salvation (Psalm 51:10-12). Jeremiah was born sanctified...sure, I could buy that. But the point here is that the nature is already there. God can change the nature but that is really what is critical at the bottom of all of these matters. So is it possible God sanctified some from the womb? Sure. But also remember that that can just mean "set apart". Either way, we do what we do because of who we are - we aren't who we are primarily because of what we do.

Samie
April 27th, 2016, 08:58 AM
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Psalm 58:3Psalm 58:3 says wicked people go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies. BORN first, then, go astray. NOT born astray. To go astray after being born is different from born already astray.

Sorry, the verse does not back up the idea that people are born spiritually dead in sin.

So you are left with one of two options :

1. All men are wicked (remember Jeremiah 17:9 - the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked and who can know it..).
2. Only some are wicked (after all, the verse just says the wicked do this). You are still left with some being created one way and others another way. It goes back to nature, not works.No one in Adam's race is born wicked. They become wicked AFTER birth. No one is born spiritually dead in sin.

For if people are born spiritually dead in sin, then Jesus must have been born spiritually dead in sin because the Father sent Him down to earth in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh. But we know Jesus was NOT born spiritually dead in sin, being conceived of the Holy Spirit.

Epoisses
April 27th, 2016, 09:02 AM
Yes all are born righteous. Being born In Christ, we are God's righteousness in Him. 2 Cor 5:21

This is heresy and Samie from past experience refuses to give up his pet theories like his 'Wednesday crucifixion' charade. There would be no point in being 'born again' if we were born righteous. Jesus rebukes you.

Samie
April 27th, 2016, 09:09 AM
David also implored the Lord not to take His Holy Spirit from him and restore to him the joy of His salvation (Psalm 51:10-12). Jeremiah was born sanctified...sure, I could buy that. But the point here is that the nature is already there. God can change the nature but that is really what is critical at the bottom of all of these matters. So is it possible God sanctified some from the womb? Sure. But also remember that that can just mean "set apart". Either way, we do what we do because of who we are - we aren't who we are primarily because of what we do.The nature of Jesus when the Father sent Him to earth was the nature of sinful flesh because He was sent to earth in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh (Rom 8:3). The fact that Jesus was NOT born spiritually dead in sin though in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh, is glaring evidence that the LIKENESS of sinful flesh is NOT compatible with being born spiritually dead in sin.

Again, no one is born spiritually dead in sin. Instead, people are born spiritually alive.

Samie
April 27th, 2016, 09:17 AM
This is heresy and Samie from past experience refuses to give up his pet theories like his 'Wednesday crucifixion' charade. There would be no point in being 'born again' if we were born righteous.Over and over and over again, I have pointed out 1 Pet 1:3 that people were already born again through the resurrection of Jesus. Do you believe what 1 Pet 1:3 says?


Jesus rebukes you.Your problem is Jesus is with me this side of the fence. He was sent to earth in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh, yet He was NOT born spiritually dead in sin. That is glaring evidence that the LIKENESS of sinful flesh is not compatible with being born spiritually dead in sin.

Sorry, but the teaching that people are born spiritually dead in sin is foreign to the Bible. You have not even given any single verse from the Bible that simply hints people are born spiritually dead in sin.

Samie
April 27th, 2016, 10:03 AM
It's past midnight from where I am. Good night . . .

nikolai_42
April 27th, 2016, 10:13 AM
Psalm 58:3 says wicked people go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies. BORN first, then, go astray. NOT born astray. To go astray after being born is different from born already astray.

Read the verse again. It says "from the womb" it also says "as soon as they be born". In other words, that IS the way they are born. You can't "go" anywhere until you are born. This verse plainly says that's the way they go because that's the way they are.


Sorry, the verse does not back up the idea that people are born spiritually dead in sin.
No one in Adam's race is born wicked. They become wicked AFTER birth. No one is born spiritually dead in sin.

To use your request - scripture, please.


For if people are born spiritually dead in sin, then Jesus must have been born spiritually dead in sin because the Father sent Him down to earth in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh. But we know Jesus was NOT born spiritually dead in sin, being conceived of the Holy Spirit.

Faulty logic. You are comparing apples and oranges here. Adam and Christ are not of the same "stuff" :

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
I Corinthians 15:45-48

nikolai_42
April 27th, 2016, 10:14 AM
The nature of Jesus when the Father sent Him to earth was the nature of sinful flesh because He was sent to earth in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh (Rom 8:3). The fact that Jesus was NOT born spiritually dead in sin though in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh, is glaring evidence that the LIKENESS of sinful flesh is NOT compatible with being born spiritually dead in sin.

Again, no one is born spiritually dead in sin. Instead, people are born spiritually alive.

And again I point you to I Cor 15:45-48

Samie
April 27th, 2016, 03:33 PM
Read the verse again. It says "from the womb" it also says "as soon as they be born". In other words, that IS the way they are born. You can't "go" anywhere until you are born. This verse plainly says that's the way they go because that's the way they are.Yes, one can't go astray UNTIL they are born; NOT born astray. God made men upright (Eccl 7:29); they just go astray AFTER birth, NOT before nor during birth.

To use your request - scripture, please.Already given before you requested. They're in the OP. Lots of verses.

Faulty logic.No.

You are comparing apples and oranges here. Adam and Christ are not of the same "stuff" :You lost me.
Rom 8:3 is NOT comparing Christ with Adam. It is comparing Christ with the LIKENESS of sinful flesh.
Phil 2:7 is not comparing Christ with Adam. It is comparing Christ with the LIKENESS of men.

Jesus was made in all things like unto His brethren, brethren - plural, not simply singular like Adam:NKJ Hebrews 2:17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.That's a generic application. The pattern is His brethren. The resulting copy is Jesus. As copied from the pattern, the copy is born not spiritually dead in sin. Therefore, the pattern is not born spiritually dead in sin.

KingdomRose
April 29th, 2016, 07:47 PM
It is not a lie. "Spiritually dead" might be the wrong way to express the fact that all humans are BORN INTO sin and death, or, BORN WITH sin and death inherent in their make-up.

We can't help being descendants of Adam, and that is why Jehovah opted to provide humans with a propitiatory sacrifice.

Bright Raven
April 29th, 2016, 08:16 PM
Romans 3:23

Ask Mr. Religion
April 29th, 2016, 11:47 PM
I guess the church just got it all wrong when confessing the summaries of the teaching of Scripture against the heretics of their day (http://www.bible-researcher.com/sproul1.html):

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?114680-What-are-the-basics-of-Reformed-Theology&p=4559007&viewfull=1#post4559007

:AMR1:

AMR

TulipBee
April 30th, 2016, 05:36 AM
We passed our age of accountability in the Garden of Eden and from the moment Adam sinned we were charged with guilt.

TulipBee
April 30th, 2016, 05:54 AM
The reason we do not cooperate with regenerating grace before it acts upon us and in us is because we can- not. We cannot because we are spiritually dead. We can no more assist the Holy Spirit in the quickening of our souls to spiritual life than Lazarus could help Jesus raise him for the dead. -R. C. Sproul

Samie
April 30th, 2016, 10:19 AM
It is not a lie. "Spiritually dead" might be the wrong way to express the fact that all humans are BORN INTO sin and death, or, BORN WITH sin and death inherent in their make-up.Scriptures, please...


We can't help being descendants of Adam,Agree.

and that is why Jehovah opted to provide humans with a propitiatory sacrifice.Because all have sinned and that's AFTER birth. NOT before nor during birth as in "BORN INTO sin and death, or, BORN WITH sin and death" which is not biblical.

Crucible
April 30th, 2016, 10:23 AM
People are born with a curse, they are not 'born sinners'. You have to sin first to be a sinner, and this is a small theological thing which nonetheless has big theological consequence.

Samie
April 30th, 2016, 11:05 AM
I guess the church just got it all wrong when confessing the summaries of the teaching of Scripture against the heretics of their day (http://www.bible-researcher.com/sproul1.html):I guess so, too.

And Pelagius got it all wrong, too, when he said: "for a person to live a life of obedience to God, a life of moral perfection, is possible without any help from Jesus or without any help from the grace of God".


http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?114680-What-are-the-basics-of-Reformed-Theology&p=4559007&viewfull=1#post4559007

:AMR1:

AMRAs explained in the OP, because of what God through Christ did for all humans in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, people are born In Christ. NOT born sinners.

Again,

1. The Father sent His Son in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh. Rom 8:3
2. Jesus was made in the LIKENESS of men. Phil 2:7
3. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Cor 5:21
4. In all things it behoved Jesus to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. Hebrews 2:17

The PATTERN is His brethren; the resulting COPY from the pattern is Jesus. The COPY was born NOT dead in sin, therefore, the PATTERN was born NOT dead in sin.

way 2 go
May 2nd, 2016, 08:53 PM
For if people are born spiritually dead in sin, then Jesus must have been born spiritually dead in sin because the Father sent Him down to earth in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh. But we know Jesus was NOT born spiritually dead in sin, being conceived of the Holy Spirit.

virgin birth took care of the inherited sinful flesh




As explained in the OP, because of what God through Christ did for all humans in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, people are born In Christ. NOT born sinners.



we are born spiritually alive but inherited sinful flesh

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

Bright Raven
May 2nd, 2016, 09:35 PM
What is it?

It is the lie that people are born spiritually dead in sin.

If indeed people are born spiritually dead in sin, then they are born NOT in Christ, because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). And to be NOT in Christ is to be apart from Christ. And apart from Christ, man can do NOTHING (John 15:5): he cannot place his faith in Christ; he cannot accept His gift of salvation; he cannot repent and overcome evil with good. IOW, he is doomed.

But Scriptures teach otherwise.

Adam could have, by his own death that day he sinned, paid the penalty for his sin, but that would be his eternal end. He could have paid for his sin God hates, but God would have eternally lost the sinner He loves. So right on that same day Adam fell into sin, God implemented the plan of redemption He devised before the foundation of the world (2 Tim 1:8-10). God's plan made it possible for man to not only pay for the penalty of his own sin, but also at the same time, give him another shot at eternal life. That plan found fulfillment in the life, death and resurrection of our Lord. No wonder Christ is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world!!! Rev 13:8

God through Christ fashioned humanity into the Body of Christ on the cross thereby creating the One New Man: Christ the Head, humanity (Jews and Gentiles) the Body (Eph 2:11-19). When the Head died, the Body died with Him (2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9); when the Head resurrected, the Body was made alive TOGETHER with Him (Eph 2: 4-6; Col 2:13), born again into a living hope of life eternal (1 Pet 1:3).

Now that people are alive, God commands all to repent (Acts 17:30) and given faith (Rom 12:3) so they can please God (Heb 11:6) and gain victory over the world (1 John 5:4), they have His Power (Phil 4:13) to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). Overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5) and will be seated with Christ on His throne, Who Himself is an overcomer.KJV Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.Scriptures warn against persistence in believing a lie.2 Thessalonians 2:10-11 . . . because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lieKnowing the truth yet persisting to believe a lie is siding with the father of lies. John 8:44
1 Corinthians 15:22 New King James Version (NKJV)

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

Samie
May 4th, 2016, 09:39 AM
1 Corinthians 15:22 New King James Version (NKJV)

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive."For as in Adam all die": if in Adam we die, this means we start off alive, because only those alive can die.

TulipBee
May 4th, 2016, 10:43 AM
"For as in Adam all die": if in Adam we die, this means we start off alive, because only those alive can die.
Elects stay and stays alive. Perseverance of the saints.

genuineoriginal
May 4th, 2016, 12:33 PM
What is it?

It is the lie that people are born spiritually dead in sin.

Yes.
The lie that people are born spiritually dead in sin comes from Augustine the heretic who brought it into Christianity from Manichaeism.

genuineoriginal
May 4th, 2016, 12:34 PM
According to scripture we start off with corruptible seed until we are born again.

1Pe 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We start off with corruptible seed, and not corrupted seed?

Samie
May 4th, 2016, 02:28 PM
Elects stay and stays alive. Perseverance of the saints.There are from the elect who will be thrown into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt 8:11-12). God is able to graft into and cut off branches from the olive tree (Rom 11:19 - 22).

dodge
May 4th, 2016, 03:45 PM
We start off with corruptible seed, and not corrupted seed?


BOTH !

genuineoriginal
May 4th, 2016, 03:56 PM
BOTH !

Provide proof from scripture please.

As far as I have found in the Bible, mankind possesses free will from birth to choose good or evil.

TulipBee
May 4th, 2016, 06:28 PM
There are from the elect who will be thrown into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt 8:11-12). God is able to graft into and cut off branches from the olive tree (Rom 11:19 - 22).
Those excluded from the kingdom.

Cutting off isreal.

dodge
May 4th, 2016, 06:52 PM
Provide proof from scripture please.

As far as I have found in the Bible, mankind possesses free will from birth to choose good or evil.


You do understand that Adam and Eve were created in God's image, and ever since Adam disobeyed God scripture says everyone after that was Created in Adam's image= estranged from God with a sin nature.

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Samie
May 5th, 2016, 04:00 AM
Those excluded from the kingdom. The elect are children of the kingdom. Those thrown out are children of the kingdom.Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Cutting off isreal.Those cut off are original branches, hence, elect. Those grafted in will also be cut off if they don't continue in His goodness:NIV Romans 11:19-22
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in."
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. Scriptures are clear. Among the elect, there are those who will be cut off and thrown out. But only God knows who.

TulipBee
May 5th, 2016, 07:00 AM
The elect are children of the kingdom. Those thrown out are children of the kingdom.Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.Those cut off are original branches, hence, elect. Those grafted in will also be cut off if they don't continue in His goodness:NIV Romans 11:19-22
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in."
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. Scriptures are clear. Among the elect, there are those who will be cut off and thrown out. But only God knows who.
Those aren't the elect. They are unbelieving Jews.

Are they the elects? Not in this context no. Read the verses leading up to it. He's applauding the Roman centurion for his faith while saying it's greater than any Israelite he has seen. He's saying that many non Jews (who come from the east and the west) like him will enter heaven and many Jews will not.

“When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith. I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”” Matthew‬ 8:10-12‬ ESV‬‬

Samie
May 5th, 2016, 10:28 AM
Those aren't the elect. They are unbelieving Jews.

Are they the elects? Not in this context no. Read the verses leading up to it. He's applauding the Roman centurion for his faith while saying it's greater than any Israelite he has seen. He's saying that many non Jews (who come from the east and the west) like him will enter heaven and many Jews will not.

“When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel have I found such faith. I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”” Matthew‬ 8:10-12‬ ESV‬‬There's something fishy here. What Jesus called the subjects of the kingdom, you don't consider as among the elect. Are your "elect" not among the "subjects of the kingdom"?

And you simply kept silent on Rom 11. Why?

genuineoriginal
May 5th, 2016, 12:49 PM
You do understand that Adam and Eve were created in God's image, and ever since Adam disobeyed God scripture says everyone after that was Created in Adam's image= estranged from God with a sin nature.

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

If that is your only proof for Original Sin, then you are lacking.
Try these verses:

Ezekiel 33:12-19
12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.

dodge
May 5th, 2016, 03:58 PM
If that is your only proof for Original Sin, then you are lacking.
Try these verses:

Ezekiel 33:12-19
12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.


Original sin is scriptural ! Sorry you cannot see it.

genuineoriginal
May 5th, 2016, 04:07 PM
Original sin is scriptural ! Sorry you cannot see it.
Sorry, but I follow Sola Scriptura, not Sola Augustine.

Original sin is from Augustine who got it from Manicheism, not from the scriptures.

Samie
May 5th, 2016, 04:07 PM
You do understand that Adam and Eve were created in God's image, and ever since Adam disobeyed God scripture says everyone after that was Created in Adam's image= estranged from God with a sin nature.

Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:That verse does not give a hint that people are estranged from God with a sin nature.

Instead, Scriptures say that the nature Jesus took upon Himself was that of His brethren:

Rom 8:3 - Jesus was sent in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh.
Phil 2:7 - Jesus was made in the LIKENESS of men.
Heb 2:17 - It behooved Jesus, in all things, to be made LIKE unto His brethren.

His brethren is the PATTERN. Jesus is the resulting COPY from the PATTERN. As the nature of the PATTERN, so is the nature of the COPY. The nature of the COPY is able to NOT sin, ergo, the nature of the PATTERN is able to NOT sin. The COPY chose to NOT sin, BUT the PATTERN chose to sin.

Samie
May 5th, 2016, 04:15 PM
Original sin is scriptural ! Sorry you cannot see it.It's one thing to say it is scriptural. It is another thing to show where it is in Scriptures.

It is one thing to say, "Scripture says . . .". It is another thing what Scripture actually says.

dodge
May 5th, 2016, 06:19 PM
It's one thing to say it is scriptural. It is another thing to show where it is in Scriptures.

It is one thing to say, "Scripture says . . .". It is another thing what Scripture actually says.

Some folks DO NOT want to actually see what scripture says because they disagree or have been taught differently than scripture actually says !

dodge
May 5th, 2016, 06:22 PM
Sorry, but I follow Sola Scriptura, not Sola Augustine.

Original sin is from Augustine who got it from Manicheism, not from the scriptures.


Original sin is in scripture ! Sorry you cannot see it.

TulipBee
May 5th, 2016, 06:41 PM
There's something fishy here. What Jesus called the subjects of the kingdom, you don't consider as among the elect. Are your "elect" not among the "subjects of the kingdom"?

And you simply kept silent on Rom 11. Why?
To add to my dissection, Paul's makes a useful distinction:

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”

Romans 9:6-7

Epoisses
May 5th, 2016, 09:37 PM
To add to my dissection, Paul's makes a useful distinction:

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.”

Romans 9:6-7

The 'elect' are like faithful Abraham who believe in Jesus and his gospel. This is not you.

Samie
May 6th, 2016, 06:45 AM
Some folks DO NOT want to actually see what scripture says because they disagree or have been taught differently than scripture actually says !You actually quoted Rom 5:12 and said that that verse says After Adam, everyone was created estranged from God. But nowhere does Rom 5:12 said what you said it said. It appears your statement quoted above very well applies to you. I cited what Scripture actually says relative to the issue (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?117586-The-Lie-Many-Honestly-Believed-As-Truth&p=4694669&viewfull=1#post4694669)but you just kept silent on what I posted.

dodge
May 6th, 2016, 09:06 AM
You actually quoted Rom 5:12 and said that that verse says After Adam, everyone was created estranged from God. But nowhere does Rom 5:12 said what you said it said. It appears your statement quoted above very well applies to you. I cited what Scripture actually says relative to the issue (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?117586-The-Lie-Many-Honestly-Believed-As-Truth&p=4694669&viewfull=1#post4694669)but you just kept silent on what I posted.


DEATH is the result of sin ! Does everyone still die ?

Samie
May 6th, 2016, 07:23 PM
DEATH is the result of sin !Of course. But the issue is whether people are born spiritually dead in sin. Not whether they sin AFTER birth, which is a given, because all have sinned.

Samie
May 13th, 2016, 12:53 PM
That people are born spiritually dead in sin has led to similarly erroneous teachings. For the Arminians, it led them to ask the dead to believe. For the Calvinists, it led them to do away with free will. For some others, it led them to consider only Christians can make it to heaven. And what more, God is portrayed as a Father who just folded His hands and did nothing but simply watched His children drown, why? Because He did nothing to forestall the change of Adam's nature but instead simply watched as it morphed from good to bad causing all his descendants to be born spiritually dead in sin. That unless people first believe they cannot be In Christ, presents salvation as one of works.

That people are born In Christ and therefore spiritually alive is beyond question. Other than biblically founded, it portrays God in a better light in that He did His best to forestall the change of Adam's nature from good to bad even if would cost Him His only begotten Son. All people, born before or after the cross, are placed in equal footing before God in that all were empowered and hence all are accountable. That it was God Who caused people to be born In Christ presents salvation as all by grace. Yet man's free will is not compromised, because overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life.