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Samie
April 21st, 2016, 03:44 PM
Yes.

Because of Christ's life, death and resurrection, people are born into this world already In Christ Who is our Life (Col 3:4) and therefore spiritually alive. The Father through the Son created the One New Man on the cross (Eph 2:11-19): Christ the Head; humanity (Jews & Gentiles) the Body. When the Head died, the Body of course likewise died. It was in His Body where Jesus carried the sin of humanity on the tree (1 Pet 2:24). And rightly so, because humanity was His Body on the cross! And He is the Lamb that takes away the sin not only of the believers but the sin of the world (John 1:29).

Christ's death on the cross was first represented by the first death of an animal on the very same day Adam fell into sin, as well as with subsequent animal sacrifices in the old covenant. Instead of man dying to pay for his sin, another died for him, so man can have another shot at life eternal. True, Adam, by his own death that same day he sinned, could have paid for his sin, but that would be the eternal end for him. He could have paid for his sin God hates, but God would have eternally lost the sinner He loves. But God was not caught unaware. He had already devised a plan whereby man could not only pay for his own sin but at the same time have another shot at eternal life. So, on that very same day man sinned, God implemented the plan of redemption He devised before the foundation of the world, before the beginning of time (2 Tim 1:8-10). No wonder, Christ is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world!!!

The plan of redemption portrayed by the first death of an animal in Eden, found fulfillment in the life, death and resurrection of our Lord, and covered all of Adam's race, no one exempted nor left out. Fashioned into His Body on the cross, people are born In Christ. When He - the Head - died, we - His Body - died. When He resurrected, we were made alive TOGETHER with Him (Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13), born again into a living hope of life eternal (1 Pet 2:24). Being part of the Body of Christ Who is our Strength (Phil 4:13), and given faith (Rom 12:3) so that we can please God (Heb 11:6) and gain victory over the world (1 John 5:4), we have His Power (Rom 8:37) to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). And overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5).

Nang
April 21st, 2016, 03:48 PM
No.

All men are born into this world spiritually dead (unless God, according to His pure grace, has regenerated them to life in the womb, as was John the Baptist).

John 3:1-18

john w
April 21st, 2016, 04:00 PM
No.

All men are born into this world spiritually dead (unless God, according to His pure grace, has regenerated them to life in the womb, as was John the Baptist).

John 3:1-18


TOL property values are now plummeting.......

jamie
April 21st, 2016, 04:11 PM
No.

All men are born into this world spiritually dead (unless God, according to His pure grace, has regenerated them to life in the womb, as was John the Baptist).

John 3:1-18


Yes, John had the holy Spirit and Jesus was baptized by the holy Spirit through John.

Nang
April 21st, 2016, 04:25 PM
Yes, John had the holy Spirit and Jesus was baptized by the holy Spirit through John.

Yes, plus . .

Jesus was the only human ever conceived by the Holy Spirit. All others are conceived by parents who have inherited the sin nature of Adam; thus all humans are born corrupted, guilty, and subject to sin and death (again, excepting fetuses who can be regenerated by God's grace and power in the womb).

This is the true doctrine of Total Depravity.

Samie is posting merely humanistic opinion, and a gospel of works; neither of which is Truth.

Robert Pate
April 21st, 2016, 04:32 PM
All are born into the world spiritually dead according to the Bible.

"Wherefore as by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12.

We are all born into the world as sinners. Even babies and small children do sinful acts.

Spiritual life comes to people that hear and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

When one hears and believes the Gospel they become born again by the Holy Spirit, 1 Peter 1:23.

Paul said the Galatians, "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (Because you did something) or by the hearing of faith" (hearing and believing the Gospel) Galatians 3:2.

Nanja
April 21st, 2016, 05:43 PM
All are born into the world spiritually dead according to the Bible.

"Wherefore as by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12.

We are all born into the world as sinners. Even babies and small children do sinful acts.

Spiritual life comes to people that hear and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

When one hears and believes the Gospel they become born again by the Holy Spirit, 1 Peter 1:23.

Paul said the Galatians, "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (Because you did something) or by the hearing of faith" (hearing and believing the Gospel) Galatians 3:2.



The hearing of Faith is only possible after one has been Born of the Spirit of God.
For Faith is a Fruit and Gift of the Holy Spirit Gal. 5:22; Eph. 2:8; Titus 1:1!

~~~~~

patrick jane
April 21st, 2016, 06:04 PM
Ephesians 2:5-6 KJV - 1 Corinthians 15:22 KJV -

Crucible
April 21st, 2016, 06:45 PM
People are not born spiritually dead, unless one holds to a very old, sadist notion that infants and small children go to Limbo :doh:

Spiritual death is the 'first death', and it happens when one progresses, without faith, into depravity later in life.

jamie
April 21st, 2016, 07:09 PM
People are not born spiritually dead, unless one holds to a very old, sadist notion that infants and small children go to Limbo :doh:

Spiritual death is the 'first death', and it happens when one progresses, without faith, into depravity later in life.


None of that is biblical.

patrick jane
April 21st, 2016, 07:21 PM
People are not born spiritually dead, unless one holds to a very old, sadist notion that infants and small children go to Limbo :doh:

Spiritual death is the 'first death', and it happens when one progresses, without faith, into depravity later in life.


24042

Crucible
April 21st, 2016, 07:42 PM
None of that is biblical.

'Born sinners' is not accurate, it's just something people like to say. It's never stated that one is born a sinner, it's said we are born into sin.

We adopt sin and become depraved. The intrinsic fault that leads us there is our Adamic curse.

I don't understand how it never occurred to some that first you must SIN to be a SINNER :rolleyes:

Bradley D
April 21st, 2016, 09:37 PM
Adam's sin was caused by desire. That is human nature which all are born with.

"Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death" (James 1:15).

jamie
April 21st, 2016, 10:22 PM
The intrinsic fault that leads us there is our Adamic curse.


The intrinsic fault we have is the same one that caused Adam to sin, and it is death that was passed on to the human race.

iamaberean
April 22nd, 2016, 03:47 AM
This is a much deeper subject that it first appears.
Are we born dead?
2Sa 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
2Sa 12:15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.
2Sa 12:16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.

2Sa 12:22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
2Sa 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

David's child died, but David said "I shall go to him".

1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.


Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

A believer, will never die and their children are born holy, that would be born alive. David was a believer but under law eternal life would come in the resurrection. Christian believers produce children that are alive. At some point, if the child lives to the age of accountability, they too must become a believer to receive eternal life.

I can think of no other scriptures that would refer to unbelievers or their children receiving eternal life. No matter what else one might think, we all know there is a heaven and there is a hell.

Ben Masada
April 22nd, 2016, 04:30 AM
Are People born in this world spiritually alive?
No, they are not but they are absolutely sinless.

Ben Masada
April 22nd, 2016, 04:38 AM
All are born into the world spiritually dead according to the Bible.

"Wherefore as by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12.

We are all born into the world as sinners. Even babies and small children do sinful acts.

Spiritual life comes to people that hear and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

When one hears and believes the Gospel they become born again by the Holy Spirit, 1 Peter 1:23.

Paul said the Galatians, "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (Because you did something) or by the hearing of faith" (hearing and believing the Gospel) Galatians 3:2.

Please Robert, since I am not a Christian but a Jew, I have the right to demand a quote from the real Bible aka the Tanach, the only Scriptures Jesus used to refer to as the Word of God. Can you do that? I am referring to the second statement in black above in this post of yours. You say , "according to the Bible and all you mention is from the NT.

Samie
April 22nd, 2016, 05:17 AM
All are born into the world spiritually dead according to the Bible.

"Wherefore as by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" Romans 5:12.Let's take the verse part by part:
1. Through one man (Adam) sin entered the world, and death by sin. It does not yet say, all are born into the world spiritually dead.

2. It also says "death passed upon all men for that all have sinned". It does not say, all are born into the world spiritually dead.

The statement "death passed upon all men for that all have sinned" is different from "death passed upon all men because all are born spiritually dead". The ACT of sinning occurs AFTER one is born, NOT before. If all are born spiritually dead in sin, then the passing of death should be when one is born and NOT when one has sinned, as the verse implies.


We are all born into the world as sinners. Even babies and small children do sinful acts.Since there is no marriage after the resurrection, you need to explain where the babies in the new earth came from (Isa 11:6-9). The only possible explanation is that they are among those resurrected in the resurrection of the righteous. If so, then that goes against your position.


Spiritual life comes to people that hear and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

When one hears and believes the Gospel they become born again by the Holy Spirit, 1 Peter 1:23.

Paul said the Galatians, "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (Because you did something) or by the hearing of faith" (hearing and believing the Gospel) Galatians 3:2.Your sequence of events: 1. Hear and believe, then 2. be born again.

Seems like cart before the horse, because you are in effect saying, while spiritually dead and hence apart from Christ, people can hear and believe. Glaringly against John 15:5. "Apart from Me, you can do NOTHING."

I suggest, as explained in the OP: 1. born again first, then 2. hear and believe

To be able to hear and believe, one had to be spiritually alive first, isn't it? And Scriptures say God caused us to be born again through the resurrection of Jesus. 1 Pet 1:3.

iamaberean
April 22nd, 2016, 12:40 PM
Are People born in this world spiritually alive?
No, they are not but they are absolutely sinless.
Please Robert, since I am not a Christian but a Jew, I have the right to demand a quote from the real Bible aka the Tanach, the only Scriptures Jesus used to refer to as the Word of God. Can you do that? I am referring to the second statement in black above in this post of yours. You say , "according to the Bible and all you mention is from the NT.
Hi Ben,

I agree with not being born spiritually alive, but I take exception to how you say the the New Testament is not the Bible.

Jesus is God, the Jew's Messiah. This is what Christians believe, so when Jesus says "I have come to fulfill all that has been written". That is true, but when Jesus walked the earth the words of Jesus had not yet been written. The Apostles wrote it just as Jesus gave it to them, that is just as the Prophets in the Old Testament did. Not only did the disciples walk with God, He sat down with them after the resurrection for forty days explaining all to them.

I love you Guys, Ben, and I pray that you would allow Jesus to open your eyes.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Samie
April 22nd, 2016, 01:16 PM
No.

All men are born into this world spiritually dead (unless God, according to His pure grace, has regenerated them to life in the womb, as was John the Baptist).

John 3:1-18
Yes, plus . .

Jesus was the only human ever conceived by the Holy Spirit. All others are conceived by parents who have inherited the sin nature of Adam; thus all humans are born corrupted, guilty, and subject to sin and death (again, excepting fetuses who can be regenerated by God's grace and power in the womb).

This is the true doctrine of Total Depravity.

Samie is posting merely humanistic opinion, and a gospel of works; neither of which is Truth.Humanistic opinion? Gospel of works? How?

Did you not see Scriptures in the OP?

Compare the OP with your posts. Where in Scriptures does it say "all humans are born corrupted, guilty, and subject to sin and death"? You know not even one? Then ask pneumonia or whatever his name is; he is the wise and learned one. But maybe he is so preoccupied with his anarthrous inventions he could not have studied the Bible any more and also does not know any.

I'll wait. If you can't find even one verse, then simply shut up, come up with excuses or run away and hide. Your choice.

Nang
April 22nd, 2016, 03:50 PM
Humanistic opinion? Gospel of works? How?

Did you not see Scriptures in the OP?

Compare the OP with your posts. Where in Scriptures does it say "all humans are born corrupted, guilty, and subject to sin and death"? You know not even one? Then ask pneumonia or whatever his name is; he is the wise and learned one. But maybe he is so preoccupied with his anarthrous inventions he could not have studied the Bible any more and also does not know any.

I'll wait. If you can't find even one verse, then simply shut up, come up with excuses or run away and hide. Your choice.

Romans 3:19-12
Romans 5:12
Ephesians 2:1-3
Mark 7:21-23
I John 5:19

. . . To name only a few.

Samie
April 22nd, 2016, 04:13 PM
Romans 3:19-12
Romans 5:12
Ephesians 2:1-3
Mark 7:21-23
I John 5:19

. . . To name only a few.None of those texts say what you want them to say that "all humans are born corrupted, guilty, and subject to sin and death". After people are born, then they become corrupt and guilty. But not born guilty and corrupt.

Try again.

Nang
April 22nd, 2016, 04:18 PM
None of those texts say what you want them to say that "all humans are born corrupted, guilty, and subject to sin and death". After people are born, then they become corrupt and guilty. But not born guilty and corrupt.

Try again.

What scripture do you know of that explicitly reveals infants are born without sin. As far as I know, there was only one sinless babe born into this world.

Bright Raven
April 22nd, 2016, 04:22 PM
Nope. Romans 3:23

Samie
April 22nd, 2016, 04:51 PM
A word of advice, Nang.

If you cite a verse or verses, don't just enumerate. Show how they say what you are saying. Case in point: You said "all humans are born corrupted, guilty, and subject to sin and death". To prove your point, you paraded verses.

You cited Rom 3:12-19:

Romans 3:12-19 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes. 19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God

How does that say what you you were saying that "all humans are born corrupted, guilty, and subject to sin and death"? Those verses say that people became corrupt and guilty AFTER they were born, NOT that they were born corrupt and guilty as what you claim.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

Thee verse says that death passed upon all men because all have sinned. Sinning is done AFTER one is born. The verse does not say that death passed upon all men because all men are born guilty and corrupt.

KJV Ephesians 2:1-3 1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Same story. v1 "dead in trespasses and sins" does not mean "people are born guilty and corrupt". It is AFTER they were born that they became guilty and corrupt, as v2 says that "they walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air". Walking is done AFTER one is born.

Mark 7:21-23 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: {covetousness...: Gr. covetousnesses, wickednesses} 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Same case. Not saying that people are born guilty and corrupt. They became guilty and corrupt AFTER they were born.

KJV 1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

The verse does not say "all people are born guilty and corrupt". To lie in wickedness does not mean people are born guilty and corrupt. In fact the verse tells of 2 type of people: the "we" and the "world". And that's against your proposition that "all people are born guilty and corrupt".

So your quoted verses do not say what you want them to say. Try again.

Samie
April 22nd, 2016, 05:01 PM
What scripture do you know of that explicitly reveals infants are born without sin. As far as I know, there was only one sinless babe born into this world.Are you asking this because you have ran out of Scriptures for your proposition that "all humans are born guilty and corrupt"?

To answer your question while waiting for your response, let's see the Bible for its definition of sin:

1. transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4
2. all unrighteousness. 1 John 5:17
3. refusal to do the good one is able to do. James 4:17
4. whatsoever not of faith. Rom 14:23

Which of the four above is a fetus culpable of? NONE? Then your proposition is false, based on those 4 verses. And there are oh so much more. The OP has some of them.

Nang
April 22nd, 2016, 05:15 PM
Are you asking this because you have ran out of Scriptures for your proposition that "all humans are born guilty and corrupt"?

To answer your question while waiting for your response, let's see the Bible for its definition of sin:

1. transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4
2. all unrighteousness. 1 John 5:17
3. refusal to do the good one is able to do. James 4:17
4. whatsoever not of faith. Rom 14:23

Which of the four above is a fetus culpable of? NONE? Then your proposition is false, based on those 4 verses. And there are oh so much more. The OP has some of them.

None of the verses I gave you, supports your proposition that infants are born sinless & guiltless.

And you did not answer my question with any scripture that teaches what you claim.

Obviously you have never been properly taught about the imputation of guilt God imposed upon all Adam's seed, who are all born under the death sentence imposed due to Adam breaking covenant.

patrick jane
April 22nd, 2016, 05:22 PM
Obviously you have never been properly taught about the imputation of guilt God imposed upon all Adam's seed, who are all born under the death sentence imposed due to Adam breaking covenant.
Why not focus on the good news instead of a defunct past ?

Grosnick Marowbe
April 22nd, 2016, 05:23 PM
TOL property values are now plummeting.......

She's BACK!

Grosnick Marowbe
April 22nd, 2016, 05:25 PM
Why not focus on the good news instead of a defunct past ?

Nang is a negative, cranky poster.

Samie
April 22nd, 2016, 05:28 PM
Scriptures define sin in at least 4 different ways:
1. transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4
2. all unrighteousness. 1 John 5:17
3. refusal to do the good one is able to do. James 4:17
4. whatsoever not of faith. Rom 14:23

Which of the four above is a fetus culpable of?
I say none. Sorry, but if one were to say that a fetus is culpable of even one of the 4, then maybe the person is not in the right frame of mind.

But people had been bombarded since time immemorial by their spiritual teachers that all humans are born spiritually dead in sin; born totally depraved as per Calvinists. And majority simply believed. And the lie went on and on.

It has to stop.

God through Christ has ABSOLUTELY solved the problem of sin as far as it affects the eternal destiny of men. He devised the plan of redemption before the foundation of the world. He implemented the plan which found fulfillment in the life, death and resurrection of His Son, on the same day Adam sinned. Just like Adam when he came out from the hands of His Maker, all people are born into this world spiritually alive, all because of what God through Christ has done FOR man.

It is only AFTER a man is born that he starts doing things against the will of His Maker.KJV Ecclesiastes 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.This is why people are admonished to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). And overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life.KJV Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

KJV Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Samie
April 22nd, 2016, 05:31 PM
None of the verses I gave you, supports your proposition that infants are born sinless & guiltless.

And you did not answer my question with any scripture that teaches what you claim.

Obviously you have never been properly taught about the imputation of guilt God imposed upon all Adam's seed, who are all born under the death sentence imposed due to Adam breaking covenant.Same old mouth; no Scriptures.

And if you give some, you just enumerate and parade them. And never mind whether those verses don't say what you want them to say. You can do better, Nang.

And your question had been answered. In fact, even before you asked. See the OP. You have not even tried to refute the issues delineated in the OP. Afraid?

Nick M
April 22nd, 2016, 05:49 PM
Are People Born Into This World Spiritually Alive?

Of course not. Universalism (all are saved) is unbiblical. You are already reconciled from what Adam did. All one has to do is trust what he already did.

Samie
April 22nd, 2016, 05:53 PM
Of course not. Universalism (all are saved) is unbiblical. You are already reconciled from what Adam did. All one has to do is trust what he already did.There are 3 tenses of salvation. past, present, future.

In the past and present tenses, all benefited. In the future tense, only the overcomers will positively benefit.

Samie
April 22nd, 2016, 05:54 PM
Of course not. Universalism (all are saved) is unbiblical. You are already reconciled from what Adam did. All one has to do is trust what he already did.I prefer Christ over Adam.

Samie
April 22nd, 2016, 05:59 PM
Of course not. Universalism (all are saved) is unbiblical. You are already reconciled from what Adam did. All one has to do is trust what he already did.
There are 3 tenses of salvation. past, present, future.

In the past and present tenses, all benefited. In the future tense, only the overcomers will positively benefit.What is unbiblical is "All WILL be saved", as Universalists claim.

Nick M
April 22nd, 2016, 06:53 PM
There are 3 tenses of salvation. past, present, future.



Made up.

Samie
April 23rd, 2016, 02:46 AM
Made up.You are not just aware. Here:

Past Tense:NKJ Ephesians 2:5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

NKJ Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God
Present Tense:NKJ 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

NKJ 2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing.
Future Tense:NKJ Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

NKJ Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

NKJ Romans 5:9-10 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.Now you know.