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Robert Pate
April 21st, 2016, 08:37 AM
It demands absolute and total perfection. Anything less than total perfection is sin.

The Jews took the ordinances and the commandments and composed over 600 rules and laws for holy living that they called the Torah. Little did they know that they had just scratched the surface. If one took all of the ordinances and the commandments and really looked at what is required to keep the law, instead of hundreds of laws and rules it would be more like thousands. The Law of Moses involves ever facet of ones life, from the time that you get up in the morning until you go to bed at night everything is dictated by law.

On the Sabbath you cannot do any work. Many Jews will not move a chair or open a drawer on the Sabbath because that is considered to be work. "Six days shalt thou labor, and do thy work, but the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thou son, nor thou daughter, thy manservant, nor thou maid servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is with thy gates" Exodus 20:9, 10.

I have heard that some Jews will not get out of bed on the sabbath, because throwing the covers off of the bed to get up is considered to be work. I would say that putting your clothes on would also be work. Now about tying your shoes? The possibilities are endless.

Jesus said, "Be perfect even as you Father in heaven is perfect" Matthew 5:48. Are you perfect? What many do not understand is that the law is spiritual, Romans 7:14. It searches the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12. Are all of your thoughts pure and without sin? Not mine. When Paul looked into the spiritual aspect of the law he confessed, "For I know that in me (that is in my flesh) dwells no good thing" Romans 7:18. It was because of the law that Paul also confessed that he was "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15.

The purpose of the law is to show us that we fail to measure up to God's standards, Romans 3:23 and that we are in desperate need of savior. The law is our schoolmaster that brings us to Christ, Galatians 3:24. If the law doesn't make you run to Christ to escape the judgment that is to come upon those that are under the law, I doubt if anything will.

jamie
April 21st, 2016, 10:05 AM
On the Sabbath you cannot do any work.


That is not what Jesus said. (Matthew 12:5)

Why do you ignore Jesus' teachings?

genuineoriginal
April 21st, 2016, 10:25 AM
What does God's Holy Law Demand
Only this:

Micah 6:8
8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Robert Pate
April 21st, 2016, 02:21 PM
That is not what Jesus said. (Matthew 12:5)

Why do you ignore Jesus' teachings?

The reason that the priest are blameless is because the priest must do work on the sabbath. Are you a priest of the temple?

Robert Pate
April 21st, 2016, 02:25 PM
Only this:

Micah 6:8
8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?


Why not just keep the whole law and be perfect.

jamie
April 21st, 2016, 02:33 PM
The reason that the priest are blameless is because the priest must do work on the sabbath. Are you a priest of the temple?


A priest and a temple. (Revelation 20:6)

jamie
April 21st, 2016, 02:36 PM
Why not just keep the whole law and be perfect.



Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek and not be called according to the order of Aaron? (Hebrews 7:11)

glorydaz
April 21st, 2016, 02:49 PM
Only this:

Micah 6:8
8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

ONLY that?

It's a requirement to "do justly".

Thankfully, God extends mercy and grace to those who do not "do justly" without fail.

Robert Pate
April 21st, 2016, 04:59 PM
Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek and not be called according to the order of Aaron? (Hebrews 7:11)

Perfection was NOT through the law.

Jesus fulfilled the law and he fulfilled it perfectly.

jamie
April 21st, 2016, 05:51 PM
Jesus fulfilled the law and he fulfilled it perfectly.


Jesus is still fulfilling the law, there is much more yet for him to fulfill.

Nanja
April 21st, 2016, 06:00 PM
Perfection was NOT through the law.

Jesus fulfilled the law and he fulfilled it perfectly.


Only Christ's Perfect Obedience was required to make the Many He died for Righteous Mat. 20:28.

Rom. 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Rom. 4:6-8
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


Praise the Lord!

~~~~~

Robert Pate
April 22nd, 2016, 08:43 AM
Jesus is still fulfilling the law, there is much more yet for him to fulfill.

HOGWASH!

Before Jesus died he said, "It is finished" His redemption of fallen man was complete, so that now... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Robert Pate
April 22nd, 2016, 08:48 AM
Only Christ's Perfect Obedience was required to make the Many He died for Righteous Mat. 20:28.

Rom. 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Rom. 4:6-8
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


Praise the Lord!

~~~~~

Either, you cant read the Bible or you don't believe the Bible, which?

"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD" 1 John 4:14.

This means that... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

jamie
April 22nd, 2016, 09:57 AM
HOGWASH!

Before Jesus died he said, "It is finished" His redemption of fallen man was complete, so that now... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.


You invariably confuse reconciliation with salvation, but they are spelled differently and have different meanings.

Everyone has been reconciled but not everyone has been saved.

Reconciliation was finished but we are saved by Jesus' life, not his death.

patrick jane
April 22nd, 2016, 10:02 AM
You invariably confuse reconciliation with salvation, but they are spelled differently and have different meanings.

Everyone has been reconciled but not everyone has been saved.

Reconciliation was finished but we are saved by Jesus' life, not his death.
WE have been reconciled AND saved. We have yet to be redeemed - the purchased possesion

Ephesians 1:14 KJV

jamie
April 22nd, 2016, 10:05 AM
so that now... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.


The Hebrews already knew that. Abram called on the name of the Lord. (Genesis 13:4)

genuineoriginal
April 22nd, 2016, 01:04 PM
Why not just keep the whole law and be perfect.
The whole law is summed up in only two commandments.

Matthew 22:37-40
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Only people that have eaten of the leaven of the Pharisees believe that you must do more.

Matthew 23:4
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

genuineoriginal
April 22nd, 2016, 01:11 PM
ONLY that?
Yes.


It's a requirement to "do justly".
Yes, "do justly" means to do what is righteous.


Thankfully, God extends mercy and grace to those who do not "do justly" without fail.
Yes, He always has.
That is why He put the sin offering into the Law He gave.

Robert Pate
April 22nd, 2016, 01:44 PM
Yes.


Yes, "do justly" means to do what is righteous.


Yes, He always has.
That is why He put the sin offering into the Law He gave.


Sin offering in the law is obsolete.

genuineoriginal
April 22nd, 2016, 02:12 PM
Sin offering in the law is obsolete.
Not until all prophecy has been fulfilled.
The last chapters of Ezekiel are all about the third Temple, which has not been built yet.

Ezekiel 45:19
19 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering, and put it upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court.
It could be argued that the ritual of the sin offering will only be ceremonial when this happens, but it would be foolish to argue that it will not happen.

jamie
April 22nd, 2016, 02:38 PM
The whole law is summed up in only two commandments.

Matthew 22:37-40
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


What is God's definition of love toward God and love toward neighbor?

glorydaz
April 22nd, 2016, 02:51 PM
You invariably confuse reconciliation with salvation, but they are spelled differently and have different meanings.

Everyone has been reconciled but not everyone has been saved.

Reconciliation was finished but we are saved by Jesus' life, not his death.

Reconciliation requires BOTH parties to agrees. The hand of peace God has extended by our Lord's death on the cross must be accepted before a person is saved. Which is why we are told to BE RECONCILED. So, when you say "Everyone has been reconciled", that is only from God's side. Otherwise, we would not have to beseech anyone to "Be ye reconciled to God", would we?


2 Corinthians 5:20
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

genuineoriginal
April 22nd, 2016, 02:53 PM
What is God's definition of love toward God and love toward neighbor?

_____
Shabbat 31a (http://www.sefaria.org/Shabbat.31a?lang=he-en&layout=heLeft&sidebarLang=all)
The non-Jew came before Hillel and Hillel converted him
saying,
"What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor, that is the entire Torah, the rest is just commentary, now go and study."

glorydaz
April 22nd, 2016, 02:54 PM
Yes.


Yes, "do justly" means to do what is righteous.


Yes, He always has.
That is why He put the sin offering into the Law He gave.

Our Lord Jesus Christ is the sin offering for those who believe.

genuineoriginal
April 22nd, 2016, 02:55 PM
Our Lord Jesus Christ is the sin offering for those who believe.
He is the mediator of the New Covenant, which He shed His blood for.

glorydaz
April 22nd, 2016, 03:02 PM
He is the mediator of the New Covenant, which He shed His blood for.


He is many things. Are you saying He isn't a sin offering?

Galatians 1:4
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

jamie
April 22nd, 2016, 03:19 PM
The non-Jew came before Hillel and Hillel converted him
saying, "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor, that is the entire Torah, the rest is just commentary, now go and study."


What is hateful to God? Does scripture provide a definition?

Epoisses
April 22nd, 2016, 03:25 PM
Not until all prophecy has been fulfilled.
The last chapters of Ezekiel are all about the third Temple, which has not been built yet.

Ezekiel 45:19
19 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering, and put it upon the posts of the house, and upon the four corners of the settle of the altar, and upon the posts of the gate of the inner court.
It could be argued that the ritual of the sin offering will only be ceremonial when this happens, but it would be foolish to argue that it will not happen.

The third temple is the image of the beast. Those who worship the beast and his image reject Christ and his one time sacrifice for all sin for all time.

Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? 2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. 3 He that killeth an ox is as if he slew a man; he that sacrificeth a lamb, as if he cut off a dog’s neck; he that offereth an oblation, as if he offered swine’s blood; he that burneth incense, as if he blessed an idol. Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations.  4 I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not. Isa. 66:1-4

genuineoriginal
April 22nd, 2016, 03:33 PM
He is many things. Are you saying He isn't a sin offering?

Galatians 1:4
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:
Here is the type and shadow of what Jesus did for us:

Exodus 32:30-32
30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the Lord; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
31 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Moses was willing to give himself for the sins of the children of Israel.
Was Moses trying to be a "sin offering" or was Moses trying to do something greater?

genuineoriginal
April 22nd, 2016, 03:36 PM
The third temple is the image of the beast.
No, the beast will try to stop worship in the third temple by killing the two witnesses that are protecting it.

Revelation 11:7
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Epoisses
April 22nd, 2016, 03:40 PM
No, the beast will try to stop worship in the third temple by killing the two witnesses that are protecting it.

Revelation 11:7
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

LOL. You know nothing. A rebuilt temple is a rejection of Christ as our great high priest and his eternal sacrifice.

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.  6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. Rev. 13:5,6

genuineoriginal
April 22nd, 2016, 03:46 PM
LOL. You know nothing. A rebuilt temple is a rejection of Christ as our great high priest and his eternal sacrifice.
A rebuilt temple is God's fulfillment of His Word.

Isaiah 46:9-11
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Revelation 11:1-3
1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Epoisses
April 22nd, 2016, 04:01 PM
A rebuilt temple is God's fulfillment of His Word.

This is true. When the antichrist appears as the false messiah and rebuilds the temple this will usurp the 'daily' ministration of Christ and begin the 1290 day time prophecy that will culminate in the abomination of desolation in a 3rd temple in Jerusalem. The abomination of desolation will be some blasphemous ceremony that happens in the holy place. Possibly the antichrist discovering the ark of the covenant and marching it into the most holy where he sits on a throne of light and declares himself to be god. This is speculation but plausible.

chrysostom
April 22nd, 2016, 04:07 PM
A rebuilt temple is God's fulfillment of His Word.


This is true. When the antichrist appears as the false messiah and rebuilds the temple this will usurp the 'daily' ministration of Christ and begin the 1290 day time prophecy that will culminate in the abomination of desolation in a 3rd temple in Jerusalem.

the temple will not be rebuilt
-the antichrist has come and gone
-mohammed
-guess what is in the holy place now
-wake up

genuineoriginal
April 22nd, 2016, 04:13 PM
When the antichrist appears as the false messiah and rebuilds the temple this will usurp the 'daily' ministration of Christ and begin the 1290 day time prophecy that will culminate in the abomination of desolation in a 3rd temple in Jerusalem.
The Bible does not say the antichrist appears as the false messiah, nor does the Bible say that the antichrist rebuilds the temple.
That is a fictional account that some people added to the Bible because they were unable to understand the true meaning of the prophecies.

genuineoriginal
April 22nd, 2016, 04:24 PM
the temple will not be rebuilt
It must be rebuilt to fulfill prophecy.


-the antichrist has come and gone
There are many antichrists, but the beast of Revelation is never called the antichrist in the Bible.

Robert Pate
April 22nd, 2016, 04:28 PM
The Jews want peace so that they can build their temple and resume animal sacrifices.

Epoisses
April 22nd, 2016, 09:27 PM
the temple will not be rebuilt
-the antichrist has come and gone
-mohammed
-guess what is in the holy place now
-wake up

So why was Ezekiel given a vision of a temple that has never been built?

Why was Daniel given the timeframe for the reconstruction of Jerusalem and the temple?

Why did Jesus speak of the abomination of desolation taking place in an earthly temple?

Why did Paul say the man of sin would sit in the temple and claim to be god?

Jerusalem is ground zero for the last days. Rome is nothing more than a Gentile city.

Epoisses
April 22nd, 2016, 09:27 PM
That is a fictional account that some people added to the Bible because they were unable to understand the true meaning of the prophecies.

Like you.

genuineoriginal
April 24th, 2016, 11:03 PM
Like you.
You must have missed this part:
The Bible does not say the antichrist appears as the false messiah, nor does the Bible say that the antichrist rebuilds the temple.

glorydaz
April 25th, 2016, 06:26 PM
Here is the type and shadow of what Jesus did for us:

Exodus 32:30-32
30 And it came to pass on the morrow, that Moses said unto the people, Ye have sinned a great sin: and now I will go up unto the Lord; peradventure I shall make an atonement for your sin.
31 And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Moses was willing to give himself for the sins of the children of Israel.
Was Moses trying to be a "sin offering" or was Moses trying to do something greater?

Moses couldn't be a sin offering....he was not sinless.

genuineoriginal
April 26th, 2016, 01:11 AM
Moses couldn't be a sin offering
Then Moses was trying to do something greater.


....he was not sinless.
That is besides the point.

Epoisses
April 26th, 2016, 09:45 AM
You must have missed this part:
The Bible does not say the antichrist appears as the false messiah, nor does the Bible say that the antichrist rebuilds the temple.

The antichrist is the beast who appears as a lamb (Jesus) but speaks as a dragon (Satan). Ergo the antichrist appearing as the false messiah. Also the rider on white horseback who conquers the world is the initial appearing of the antichrist and Jesus is also pictured as riding a white horse in Rev. 19. So once again we see the elements of deception with the antichrist assuming the persona of Christ.

genuineoriginal
April 26th, 2016, 11:41 AM
The antichrist is the beast who appears as a lamb (Jesus) but speaks as a dragon (Satan).
The two beasts in Revelation 13 are empires.
The first empire (beast) has seven heads and ten horns, the second beast has two horns.
The fulfillment of these two beasts are America (see Revelation 17) and Israel under the two state solution (Jews and Palestinians).


Also the rider on white horseback who conquers the world is the initial appearing of the antichrist
The four horsemen are not people, but represent the judgments that came on Jerusalem in 70 CE.

Ezekiel 14:21
21 For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?


and Jesus is also pictured as riding a white horse in Rev. 19. So once again we see the elements of deception with the antichrist assuming the persona of Christ.
Your problem is that you were taught by Dispensationalists to look for "The AntiChrist" in every prophecy, which has blinded you from seeing the true meaning of the prophecies.

beloved57
April 26th, 2016, 02:04 PM
What Gods law demanded,Christ fulfilled by His obedience unto death.

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CabinetMaker
April 26th, 2016, 02:17 PM
The reason that the priest are blameless is because the priest must do work on the sabbath. Are you a priest of the temple?
Jesus and the Apostles were not priests of the temple yet they worked on Sabbath. Drove the Pharisees nuts. Were Jesus and the Apostles blameless for working on Sabbath?

beloved57
April 26th, 2016, 04:05 PM
The two beasts in Revelation 13 are empires.
The first empire (beast) has seven heads and ten horns, the second beast has two horns.
The fulfillment of these two beasts are America (see Revelation 17) and Israel under the two state solution (Jews and Palestinians).


The four horsemen are not people, but represent the judgments that came on Jerusalem in 70 CE.

Ezekiel 14:21
21 For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?


Your problem is that you were taught by Dispensationalists to look for "The AntiChrist" in every prophecy, which has blinded you from seeing the true meaning of the prophecies.
The two beasts in Rev 13 are antichrist government and antichrist religion.

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genuineoriginal
April 26th, 2016, 04:32 PM
The two beasts in Rev 13 are antichrist government and antichrist religion.
That kind of thinking only comes from people that refuse to apply the established prophetic symbols to the prophecies.

A beast in prophecy represents an empire, not a government or a religion.

Lazy afternoon
April 26th, 2016, 04:42 PM
That kind of thinking only comes from people that refuse to apply the established prophetic symbols to the prophecies.

A beast in prophecy represents an empire, not a government or a religion.

Its close though.

LA

genuineoriginal
April 26th, 2016, 04:46 PM
Its close though.

LA

Thinking the beasts are a government and a religion are not close when thinking that makes you look away from the real empires.

Epoisses
April 26th, 2016, 11:31 PM
Your problem is that you were taught by Dispensationalists to look for "The AntiChrist" in every prophecy, which has blinded you from seeing the true meaning of the prophecies.

And you were taught by preterists/historicists that prophecy means to foretell the past. Also beasts do not represent ancient kingdoms but that would take forever to explain. The lamblike beast of Rev. 13 performs miracles, signs and lying wonders even calling fire down out of heaven. Not a kingdom.

genuineoriginal
April 27th, 2016, 07:03 AM
beasts do not represent ancient kingdoms

Beasts represent empires in prophecy.
An empire does not have to be an "ancient" kingdom.
In the prophecy of Daniel 7 the four beasts represented Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome.
Two of those empires were current at the time of the prophecy.


The lamblike beast of Rev. 13 performs miracles, signs and lying wonders even calling fire down out of heaven. Not a kingdom.
And the woman of Revelation 17 gets drunk with kings and has sex with them. Yet the woman is really a city, just like Aholah and Aholibah.

A beast in prophecy is a symbol of an empire.
The first beast in Revelation 13 is the beast in Revelation 17 and is the USA.
The second beast in Revelation 13 is the two state solution of Israel/Palestine.

chrysostom
April 27th, 2016, 07:08 AM
Beasts represent empires in prophecy.
they need something in common
-the temple
-two destroyed the temple
-one desecrated it
-one is preventing the third

Epoisses
April 27th, 2016, 09:17 AM
Beasts represent empires in prophecy.
An empire does not have to be an "ancient" kingdom.
In the prophecy of Daniel 7 the four beasts represented Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece, and Rome.
Two of those empires were current at the time of the prophecy.

Gabriel was in a battle with the prince of Persia for 21 days and this 'prince' actually prevented him from coming to Daniel in answer to his prayer. The prince of Persia or the ram is not a kingdom. Satan is called the king of Babylon is Isa. 14 and the prince of Tyre in Eze. 28. Once again not a kingdom.



And the woman of Revelation 17 gets drunk with kings and has sex with them. Yet the woman is really a city, just like Aholah and Aholibah.

A beast in prophecy is a symbol of an empire.
The first beast in Revelation 13 is the beast in Revelation 17 and is the USA.
The second beast in Revelation 13 is the two state solution of Israel/Palestine.

Babylon the great harlot is Jerusalem so you're right she is a city. At the end Jerusalem will be the capital of the world and the USA, Russia, Rome and the Islamic nations will all bow down to her.

serpentdove
April 27th, 2016, 09:27 AM
It demands absolute and total perfection. Anything less than total perfection is sin.

That's right (Mt 5:48). Gamble if you like but all will give an account (Phil 2:12). :juggle:

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/gambling/poker-face-smiley-emoticon.gif

serpentdove
April 27th, 2016, 09:39 AM
Why not just keep the whole law and be perfect.

"Lev 15:31–33 In all these instructions, God was showing the Israelites that they must have a profound reverence for holy things; and nothing was more suited to that purpose than to bar from the tabernacle all who were polluted by any kind of uncleanness, ceremonial as well as natural, physical as well as spiritual. In order to mark out His people as dwelling before Him in holiness, He required of them complete purity and didn’t allow them to come before Him when defiled, even by involuntary or secret impurities. And when one considers that God was training a people to live in His presence, it becomes apparent that these rules for the maintenance of personal purity, pointing to the necessity of purity in the heart, were neither too stringent nor too minute." MacArthur, J., Jr. (Ed.). (1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (electronic ed., p. 176). Nashville, TN: Word Pub.

The Gambler (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj4nJ1YEAp4) ~ Kenny Rogers

http://rs717.pbsrc.com/albums/ww173/prestonjjrtr/Smileys/GamePoker01.gif~c200

serpentdove
April 27th, 2016, 09:42 AM
The Jews want peace so that they can build their temple and resume animal sacrifices.
1 Sa 15:22, Mal 1:4

http://www.picgifs.com/smileys/smileys-and-emoticons/gambling/smileys-gambling-377633.gif

serpentdove
April 27th, 2016, 09:49 AM
...God extends mercy and grace to those who do not "do justly" without fail.

When to hold 'em... http://www.aljerer-lotgd.com/images/emoticons/sing.gif Lk 6:46

genuineoriginal
April 27th, 2016, 11:08 AM
Gabriel was in a battle with the prince of Persia for 21 days and this 'prince' actually prevented him from coming to Daniel in answer to his prayer. The prince of Persia or the ram is not a kingdom. Satan is called the king of Babylon is Isa. 14 and the prince of Tyre in Eze. 28. Once again not a kingdom.
You don't seem to have any point in bringing these thing up, since we are talking about what a beast represents in prophecy, and a beast represents an empire.


Babylon the great harlot is Jerusalem so you're right she is a city.

You are mistaken about Babylon being Jerusalem, since Babylon is the city of the exile and Jerusalem is the city of return.
If you keep making that mistake, you will never come to the knowledge of the truth and recognize the great city sitting on the beast for what it is, New York City.


At the end Jerusalem will be the capital of the world and the USA, Russia, Rome and the Islamic nations will all bow down to her.
That only happens during the Millennial kingdom, which is after the beast (USA) leads the nations of the world into war against Jerusalem.

Epoisses
April 27th, 2016, 11:00 PM
You don't seem to have any point in bringing these thing up, since we are talking about what a beast represents in prophecy, and a beast represents an empire.

Nowhere in scripture is a beast ever identified as a kingdom, nation or empire. They are always identified as a prince or a king. As in the prince of Persia or the prince of Greece. Now a prince or a king can be the leader of a kingdom or empire and I have no problem with that but the beast itself is an individual not a kingdom.

Epoisses
April 27th, 2016, 11:02 PM
If you keep making that mistake, you will never come to the knowledge of the truth and recognize the great city sitting on the beast for what it is, New York City.

Tabloid prophecy rubbish.

beloved57
April 27th, 2016, 11:42 PM
What Gods Holy Law demanded from men, Christ provided it for Gods elect, His Church, for it is written Isa 42:21

21 The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.

This is what Christ did for believers in Him. This is what is revealed to them in the Gospel!

genuineoriginal
April 28th, 2016, 12:10 PM
Nowhere in scripture is a beast ever identified as a kingdom, nation or empire. They are always identified as a prince or a king. As in the prince of Persia or the prince of Greece. Now a prince or a king can be the leader of a kingdom or empire and I have no problem with that but the beast itself is an individual not a kingdom.

You may want to read Daniel 7

However, since a beast represents an empire (not just a kingdom), the beast can also be identified as one of the rulers of the empire it represents.
Most of the time the ruler of an empire is represented as a horn on a beast, not as the beast itself.

Epoisses
April 28th, 2016, 11:12 PM
You may want to read Daniel 7

However, since a beast represents an empire (not just a kingdom), the beast can also be identified as one of the rulers of the empire it represents.
Most of the time the ruler of an empire is represented as a horn on a beast, not as the beast itself.

The lion from chap. 7 is said ho have his wings plucked, is made to stand on his feet as a man and a man's heart is given to him. Seriously - This is a kingdom! How does a kingdom receive a man's heart? This is descriptive of Satan's transformation into a man or the antichrist. In Isa. 14 and Eze. 28 where Satan is described he is said to be a man Isa. 14:16 Eze. 28:9.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 28th, 2016, 11:41 PM
It demands absolute and total perfection. Anything less than total perfection is sin.

The Jews took the ordinances and the commandments and composed over 600 rules and laws for holy living that they called the Torah. Little did they know that they had just scratched the surface. If one took all of the ordinances and the commandments and really looked at what is required to keep the law, instead of hundreds of laws and rules it would be more like thousands. The Law of Moses involves ever facet of ones life, from the time that you get up in the morning until you go to bed at night everything is dictated by law.

On the Sabbath you cannot do any work. Many Jews will not move a chair or open a drawer on the Sabbath because that is considered to be work. "Six days shalt thou labor, and do thy work, but the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thou son, nor thou daughter, thy manservant, nor thou maid servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is with thy gates" Exodus 20:9, 10.

I have heard that some Jews will not get out of bed on the sabbath, because throwing the covers off of the bed to get up is considered to be work. I would say that putting your clothes on would also be work. Now about tying your shoes? The possibilities are endless.

Jesus said, "Be perfect even as you Father in heaven is perfect" Matthew 5:48. Are you perfect? What many do not understand is that the law is spiritual, Romans 7:14. It searches the desires and the intent of the heart, Hebrews 4:12. Are all of your thoughts pure and without sin? Not mine. When Paul looked into the spiritual aspect of the law he confessed, "For I know that in me (that is in my flesh) dwells no good thing" Romans 7:18. It was because of the law that Paul also confessed that he was "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15.

The purpose of the law is to show us that we fail to measure up to God's standards, Romans 3:23 and that we are in desperate need of savior. The law is our schoolmaster that brings us to Christ, Galatians 3:24. If the law doesn't make you run to Christ to escape the judgment that is to come upon those that are under the law, I doubt if anything will.

Good post Pate.

genuineoriginal
May 2nd, 2016, 01:04 PM
The lion from chap. 7 is said ho have his wings plucked, is made to stand on his feet as a man and a man's heart is given to him. Seriously - This is a kingdom! How does a kingdom receive a man's heart? This is descriptive of Satan's transformation into a man or the antichrist. In Isa. 14 and Eze. 28 where Satan is described he is said to be a man Isa. 14:16 Eze. 28:9.

You seem to lack the ability to exegete prophetic scripture.
You may want to take a few years off from exposing your lack and do some learning instead.

Wick Stick
May 2nd, 2016, 03:22 PM
What does God's Holy Law Demand?
Blood.

Rivers of blood.

genuineoriginal
May 2nd, 2016, 03:52 PM
Blood.

Rivers of blood.

Matthew 9:13
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Epoisses
May 2nd, 2016, 10:54 PM
You seem to lack the ability to exegete prophetic scripture.
You may want to take a few years off from exposing your lack and do some learning instead.

Like from your hero, John Hoagie!! Big John-on, put that sandwich down or you won't be able to stand for Isruuul!!!!

genuineoriginal
May 3rd, 2016, 12:14 PM
Like from your hero, John Hoagie!! Big John-on, put that sandwich down or you won't be able to stand for Isruuul!!!!
My information comes from the Bible and history, not from John Hagee

beloved57
May 7th, 2016, 01:11 PM
Gods Law demanded of man even beginning with Adam this:

Matt 22:36-40

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Man failed these in Adam !

Robert Pate
May 10th, 2016, 08:49 AM
Gods Law demanded of man even beginning with Adam this:

Matt 22:36-40

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Man failed these in Adam !

True, but all has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

beloved57
May 10th, 2016, 08:53 AM
True, but all has been fulfilled in Jesus Christ.
What is true ? Explain to me the points I made in that post.

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Robert Pate
May 10th, 2016, 01:57 PM
What is true ? Explain to me the points I made in that post.

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Jesus is God's new Adam. Adam brought sin, Jesus brings righteousness, Romans 5:17.

So that now... "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

beloved57
May 10th, 2016, 02:09 PM
Jesus is God's new Adam. Adam brought sin, Jesus brings righteousness, Romans 5:17.

So that now... "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

You evaded my points again !

Robert Pate
May 10th, 2016, 04:42 PM
What is true ? Explain to me the points I made in that post.

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The point is that Jesus is the epitome of God's Holy Law.

And he has fulfilled all of the demands of God's Holy Law in our name and on our behalf, so that now... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

jamie
May 10th, 2016, 07:28 PM
And he has fulfilled all of the demands of God's Holy Law in our name and on our behalf, so that now... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.


Can just anybody call on the Lord, or just those invited by the Father to do so?

beloved57
May 10th, 2016, 07:37 PM
The point is that Jesus is the epitome of God's Holy Law.

And he has fulfilled all of the demands of God's Holy Law in our name and on our behalf, so that now... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.
False statements. You teach salvation by works, by what a person does.

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Robert Pate
May 10th, 2016, 08:57 PM
False statements. You teach salvation by works, by what a person does.

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You continue to call Paul and Jesus a liar.

beloved57
May 10th, 2016, 08:59 PM
You continue to call Paul and Jesus a liar.
Your paul, jesus and you are liars

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Robert Pate
May 11th, 2016, 01:30 PM
Your paul, jesus and you are liars

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My Paul, Jesus and me, thinks that you are going to the hot place.

beloved57
May 11th, 2016, 01:38 PM
My Paul, Jesus and me, thinks that you are going to the hot place.
That's right, for you don't believe the scripture.

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Robert Pate
May 11th, 2016, 02:36 PM
That's right, for you don't believe the scripture.

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The scripture plainly says that Jesus has reconciled the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. Which means that no one needs to be predestinated. You are on the wrong bus, going in the wrong direction.

beloved57
May 11th, 2016, 02:59 PM
The scripture plainly says that Jesus has reconciled the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. Which means that no one needs to be predestinated. You are on the wrong bus, going in the wrong direction.

Like I said, you dont believe the scripture !

Robert Pate
May 12th, 2016, 08:04 AM
Can just anybody call on the Lord, or just those invited by the Father to do so?

"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

"Whosoever" means all, anyone, everyone.

The Father is calling all to come to Christ. Not just "Some Certain Persons" Hebrews 3:15.

jamie
May 12th, 2016, 08:19 AM
"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

"Whosoever" means all, anyone, everyone.

The Father is calling all to come to Christ. Not just "Some Certain Persons" Hebrews 3:15.


That's the very opposite of Jesus' statement: "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44)


For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble are called.
(1 Corinthians 1:26

Robert Pate
May 14th, 2016, 09:05 AM
That's the very opposite of Jesus' statement: "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44)


For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble are called.
(1 Corinthians 1:26

All are called to believe upon Christ, But not many respond to the call.

Otherwise you have an unjust God that saves only some and damns the rest to hell.

Epoisses
May 14th, 2016, 10:48 AM
That's the very opposite of Jesus' statement: "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44)


For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble are called.
(1 Corinthians 1:26

Jesus is drawing all men and women unto himself via the Holy Spirit.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12:32

jamie
May 14th, 2016, 11:14 AM
Jesus is drawing all men and women unto himself via the Holy Spirit.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12:32


During this day of salvation many are being called, but of those called few are chosen.

Fortunately, this is not the only day of salvation. (John 7:37)

beloved57
May 14th, 2016, 11:47 AM
Jesus is drawing all men and women unto himself via the Holy Spirit.

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12:32

Whose the all men ? Thats the question. You have a carnal understanding of scripture !

beloved57
May 14th, 2016, 11:48 AM
All are called to believe upon Christ, But not many respond to the call.

Otherwise you have an unjust God that saves only some and damns the rest to hell.

False teaching. Those called by God are called according His Purpose, and they shall be Justified and Glorified . Rom 8:28-30 !

LTache
May 14th, 2016, 01:12 PM
False teaching. Those called by God are called according His Purpose, and they shall be Justified and Glorified . Rom 8:28-30 !
What about this scripture?
Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

beloved57
May 14th, 2016, 01:13 PM
What about this scripture?
Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.
What about it? Have you studied it ?

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LTache
May 14th, 2016, 01:16 PM
What about it? Have you studied it ?

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What about it? It contradicts that which you believe.

Study it? What is there to study?

beloved57
May 14th, 2016, 01:19 PM
What about it? It contradicts that which you believe.

Study it? What is there to study?
If you have studied it then share the fruit of it

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LTache
May 14th, 2016, 01:21 PM
If you have studied it then share the fruit of it

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So I am right you really do not know what you are talking about.

beloved57
May 14th, 2016, 01:27 PM
So I am right you really do not know what you are talking about.
I don't believe you are truthful. Why shirk your responsibility?

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LTache
May 14th, 2016, 01:29 PM
I don't believe you are truthful. Why shirk your responsibility?

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What have I said that is not truthful?

beloved57
May 14th, 2016, 01:33 PM
What have I said that is not truthful?
Then explain the scripture you asked me about. You said you studied it

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LTache
May 14th, 2016, 01:35 PM
Then explain the scripture you asked me about. You said you studied it

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I caught you in a lie. You said I was not being truthful.

What is the scripture about what happens to liars?

I know you know it.

Wick Stick
May 17th, 2016, 12:31 PM
Blood.

Rivers of blood.

Matthew 9:13
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
G.O.,

That's from the prophets (requoted in the gospels). The original post asked what was required in the Law. Perhaps everything in the Law was not exactly what God wanted?

Jarrod

djhow
May 17th, 2016, 12:38 PM
And also that there were righteous people before Jesus's death long before any Christian doctrine and as Paul said they were made righteous through faith in God

genuineoriginal
May 17th, 2016, 04:38 PM
G.O.,

That's from the prophets (requoted in the gospels). The original post asked what was required in the Law. Perhaps everything in the Law was not exactly what God wanted?

Jarrod

Perhaps everything in the Law was what God wanted, but man twisted it?

But, if you want to know what is required in the Law and not in the prophets or the New Testament, this should help:

Deuteronomy 10:12-13
12 And now, Israel, what doth the Lord thy God require of thee, but to fear the Lord thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
13 To keep the commandments of the Lord, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?

Wick Stick
May 17th, 2016, 05:12 PM
Perhaps everything in the Law was what God wanted, but man twisted it?
If by twisted, you mean "added crap to it," then yeah. To cut to the chase... I increasingly see problems between:
(a) the first 4 books of the Pentateuch, and the books of history, and
(b) what the prophets, writings, and New Testament say.

E.g. God wanted animal sacrifice in Leviticus, but by Amos, he says he hates them?

Obv, that doesn't mean everything in the historical parts of the OT should be thrown out. There is much that is in agreement, but there is a real problem there of who redacted what and how much was added/subtracted/smoothed over.


But, if you want to know what is required in the Law and not in the prophets or the New Testament, this should help:


Deuteronomy 10:12-13
12 And now, Israel, what doth the Lord thy God require of thee, but to fear the Lord thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
13 To keep the commandments of the Lord, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
It's interesting that Deuteronomy agrees with the prophets, writings, gospels and epistles, other than the rest of the law, and history.

Jarrod

genuineoriginal
May 17th, 2016, 05:29 PM
If by twisted, you mean "added crap to it," then yeah.
Jesus spent a lot of His ministry correcting the way the Pharisees twisted scripture.


It's interesting that Deuteronomy agrees with the prophets, writings, gospels and epistles, other than the rest of the law, and history.
Jesus was in full agreement with the Torah, but was not in agreement with how men treated it.


To cut to the chase... I increasingly see problems between:
(a) the first 4 books of the Pentateuch, and the books of history, and
(b) what the prophets, writings, and New Testament say.

E.g. God wanted animal sacrifice in Leviticus, but by Amos, he says he hates them?

Obv, that doesn't mean everything in the historical parts of the OT should be thrown out. There is much that is in agreement, but there is a real problem there of who redacted what and how much was added/subtracted/smoothed over.
God instituted animal sacrifices in Leviticus because He wants people to see how horrible He thinks sin is and repent of doing it.
However, people did not have compassion for the animals that were sacrificed, and used that as an excuse to sin more instead of using animal sacrifice as motivation to stop sinning.

Wick Stick
May 17th, 2016, 05:58 PM
God instituted animal sacrifices in Leviticus because He wants people to see how horrible He thinks sin is and repent of doing it.

However, people did not have compassion for the animals that were sacrificed, and used that as an excuse to sin more instead of using animal sacrifice as motivation to stop sinning.
So... God mistakenly thought that people would find it abhorrent, like He does? Or maybe, He foreknew that they wouldn't, but just thought that centuries of slaughter would be worth it, so He could accuse them of it later?

I'm going to operate under the assumption that the Israelites saw their neighbors offering sacrifices, and wanted the same thing. And, like in the case where they demanded a king, God let them have what they wanted, even though it wasn't the best option.

Jarrod

jamie
May 17th, 2016, 08:35 PM
I'm going to operate under the assumption that the Israelites saw their neighbors offering sacrifices, and wanted the same thing. And, like in the case where they demanded a king, God let them have what they wanted, even though it wasn't the best option.


The animal sacrifices were for atonement. However, the atonement was polluted by hypocrisy. God doesn't care for hypocrisy.

Christ had no problem with Abel's sacrifice.

Epoisses
May 17th, 2016, 11:25 PM
The animal sacrifices were for atonement. However, the atonement was polluted by hypocrisy. God doesn't care for hypocrisy.

Christ had no problem with Abel's sacrifice.

Sacrificial offerings were acts of faith in the OT. They did not cleanse from any sin but showed that the one offering was looking forward in faith to a redeemer to come. We look backwards to a redeemer who has already come and accomplished his mission.

Robert Pate
May 18th, 2016, 08:14 AM
Sacrificial offerings were acts of faith in the OT. They did not cleanse from any sin but showed that the one offering was looking forward in faith to a redeemer to come. We look backwards to a redeemer who has already come and accomplished his mission.


Right, The Old Testament was about looking forward to when Christ would arrive. Those who believed in the promise of a savior were justified by faith.

genuineoriginal
May 18th, 2016, 11:31 AM
So... God mistakenly thought that people would find it abhorrent, like He does?
That is what I believe.


Or maybe, He foreknew that they wouldn't, but just thought that centuries of slaughter would be worth it, so He could accuse them of it later?
That would make God unrighteous.


I'm going to operate under the assumption that the Israelites saw their neighbors offering sacrifices, and wanted the same thing. And, like in the case where they demanded a king, God let them have what they wanted, even though it wasn't the best option.
You seem to be ignoring the whole Cain and Abel issue.

Wick Stick
May 18th, 2016, 02:40 PM
So... God mistakenly thought that people would find it abhorrent, like He does?
That is what I believe.
I believe God doesn't make mistakes.


That would make God unrighteous.Yes it would. Do you see a problem with that? I do.


You seem to be ignoring the whole Cain and Abel issue.
If you're referring to Jamie's post, I'm not ignoring it. It just wasn't posted until after I was offline last night.


The animal sacrifices were for atonement. However, the atonement was polluted by hypocrisy. God doesn't care for hypocrisy.

Christ had no problem with Abel's sacrifice.
A problem - Abel's sacrifice wasn't for atonement. Able's sacrifice was about his work, and offering tribute.

Sacrifice for atonement wasn't until later, after which God said He hates that.

Jarrod

jamie
May 18th, 2016, 02:49 PM
A problem - Abel's sacrifice wasn't for atonement. Able's sacrifice was about his work, and offering tribute.


We don't know the reason for Abel's sacrifice, my point was that it was an animal sacrifice to which God had no objection.

But with regard to Israel: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul."
(Leviticus 17:11)

Ben Masada
May 18th, 2016, 02:57 PM
And also that there were righteous people before Jesus's death long before any Christian doctrine and as Paul said they were made righteous through faith in God

And according to Jesus himself, they had become righteous because they listened to "Moses" aka the Law. Read Luke 16:29-31.

Wick Stick
May 18th, 2016, 04:01 PM
We don't know the reason for Abel's sacrifice...
Yes we do. It says in Genesis 4 that both Cain and Abel brought מִנְחָה - that's a tribute paid to a king. Not for atonement.


But with regard to Israel: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul." (Leviticus 17:11)
This is a given. Try to keep up... the question is, if God commanded sacrifices, why then does He say things like:

Hosea 6:6 I desired mercy, not sacrifice;

Isaiah 1:12 I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

There is a troubling dichotomy in the Old Testament.

Half the books (Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Job, and all the books of OT history) are all about the priesthood and atonement and sacrifice, and nobody is justified without blood. The things written appear to be literal, and meant to be literally performed.

But in another group of books (Deuteronomy, Psalms, and all the books of prophecy), sacrifices are abhorred and not accepted and people are justified by believing. Often commands are (re?)interpreted in a way other than literally. Psalms 78, for instance, recaps all of the history of Israel, and calls it "parables."

1M1M has followed Barnabas' interpretation, holding that most of the commandments are not for literal observance, but rather meant to be interpreted.

How do you resolve the apparent conflict?

God's Truth
May 18th, 2016, 07:22 PM
Yes we do. It says in Genesis 4 that both Cain and Abel brought מִנְחָה - that's a tribute paid to a king. Not for atonement.


This is a given. Try to keep up... the question is, if God commanded sacrifices, why then does He say things like:

Hosea 6:6 I desired mercy, not sacrifice;

Isaiah 1:12 I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

There is a troubling dichotomy in the Old Testament.

Half the books (Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Job, and all the books of OT history) are all about the priesthood and atonement and sacrifice, and nobody is justified without blood. The things written appear to be literal, and meant to be literally performed.

But in another group of books (Deuteronomy, Psalms, and all the books of prophecy), sacrifices are abhorred and not accepted and people are justified by believing. Often commands are (re?)interpreted in a way other than literally. Psalms 78, for instance, recaps all of the history of Israel, and calls it "parables."

1M1M has followed Barnabas' interpretation, holding that most of the commandments are not for literal observance, but rather meant to be interpreted.

How do you resolve the apparent conflict?


God commanded sacrifices. HOWEVER, God did NOT like it that the people gave the sacrifices for sins BUT WERE NOT REALLY SORRY for their sins.

jamie
May 18th, 2016, 08:58 PM
How do you resolve the apparent conflict?


The sacrifices covered sin and foreshadowed Jesus' sacrifice. However, for many they were not done in faith and the hypocrisy was abhorrent to God, i.e., they were rotten from a spiritual standpoint.

Epoisses
May 18th, 2016, 11:25 PM
The sacrifices covered sin and foreshadowed Jesus' sacrifice. However, for many they were not done in faith and the hypocrisy was abhorrent to God, i.e., they were rotten from a spiritual standpoint.

Even if the sacrifices were offered in faith they still didn't do anything. We can't cleanse ourselves of sin by killing an animal.

God's Truth
May 19th, 2016, 12:44 AM
Even is the sacrifices were offered in faith they still didn't do anything. We can't cleanse ourselves of sin by killing an animal.

God said to sacrifice animals. The Bible says it made the people EXTERNALLY clean.

Hebrews 9:10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings--external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

God's Truth
May 19th, 2016, 01:02 AM
The sacrifices covered sin and foreshadowed Jesus' sacrifice. However, for many they were not done in faith and the hypocrisy was abhorrent to God, i.e., they were rotten from a spiritual standpoint.

That was excellently stated.

I want to bring up the filthy rag scripture at this time since so many misunderstand.

The Jews who had to do a righteous act of giving a sin offering, but God did not like it that they would sin then give a sin offering and not really be sorry for their sins. Not being truly sorry for the sin is what made the righteous act of sacrificing animals as a filthy rag.


Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.


Our righteous act of FAITH in Jesus is a filthy rag if we do not OBEY HIM.

Epoisses
May 19th, 2016, 07:51 AM
That was excellently stated.

I want to bring up the filthy rag scripture at this time since so many misunderstand.

The Jews who had to do a righteous act of giving a sin offering, but God did not like it that they would sin then give a sin offering and not really be sorry for their sins. Not being truly sorry for the sin is what made the righteous act of sacrificing animals as a filthy rag.


Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.


Our righteous act of FAITH in Jesus is a filthy rag if we do not OBEY HIM.

Every word that comes out of your unbelieving mouth is a filthy rag.

jamie
May 19th, 2016, 08:39 AM
Even if the sacrifices were offered in faith they still didn't do anything. We can't cleanse ourselves of sin by killing an animal.


Because of their obedience in doing what God instructed their sins were covered. (Hebrews 9:15)

jamie
May 19th, 2016, 08:49 AM
Even if the sacrifices were offered in faith they still didn't do anything. We can't cleanse ourselves of sin by killing an animal.


We can't cleanse ourselves by anything we do. Therefore, it is by grace salvation is offered through faith. However, it doesn't hurt to obey God.

Epoisses
May 19th, 2016, 09:09 AM
Because of their obedience in doing what God instructed their sins were covered. (Hebrews 9:15)

Their sins were covered when Jesus showed up and died for them.

Animal blood did nothing!!!

Epoisses
May 19th, 2016, 09:10 AM
We can't cleanse ourselves by anything we do. Therefore, it is by grace salvation is offered through faith. However, it doesn't hurt to obey God.

It does hurt to obey God!

Obedience is the most perverted word ever to proceed from self-righteous lips!

God's Truth
May 19th, 2016, 09:13 AM
Every word that comes out of your unbelieving mouth is a filthy rag.

No false accuser, it is what comes from your mouth.

Matthew 7:2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

God's Truth
May 19th, 2016, 09:17 AM
We can't cleanse ourselves by anything we do. Therefore, it is by grace salvation is offered through faith. However, it doesn't hurt to obey God.

Now what you say here contradicts what you said before.

We have to do what Jesus says to be cleansed.

Grace does NOT mean we no longer have to obey!

Grace means we do not have to get circumcised and offer animals to sacrifice...

Epoisses
May 19th, 2016, 09:18 AM
No false accuser, it is what comes from your mouth.

Matthew 7:2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Worthless unbeliever doomed to wallow in the error of a million others that came before you.

God's Truth
May 19th, 2016, 09:19 AM
Worthless unbeliever doomed to wallow in the error of a million others that came before you.

Who cares what you say? I only care about what God says.

jamie
May 19th, 2016, 09:21 AM
Their sins were covered when Jesus showed up and died for them.

Animal blood did nothing!!!


They were just following orders.


So Samuel said: "Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice and to heed than the fat of rams." (1 Samuel 15:22)

serpentdove
May 19th, 2016, 09:24 AM
...If the law doesn't make you run to Christ to escape the judgment that is to come upon those that are under the law, I doubt if anything will.

God is holy (Is 11:4, 5).

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another [Rom. 2:15].

"God can and will judge the heathen by his own conscience. Some folk think because the heathen do not have the revelation of God that they will escape God’s judgment. But the fact is that they are not living up to the light they have. God will judge them on that basis." McGee, J. V. (1991). Thru the Bible commentary: The Epistles (Romans 1-8) (electronic ed., Vol. 42, p. 50). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

God's Truth
May 19th, 2016, 09:24 AM
They were just following orders.


So Samuel said: "Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice and to heed than the fat of rams." (1 Samuel 15:22)

Hebrews 10:8 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them"--though they were offered in accordance with the law.

Epoisses
May 19th, 2016, 09:25 AM
Who cares what you say? I only care about what God says.

Who cares what you say!!! Your words are empty and express your groping about in darkness.

God's Truth
May 19th, 2016, 09:25 AM
We are to do what God says no matter what He says.

God was going to kill Moses because Moses was not going to circumcise his son.

God's Truth
May 19th, 2016, 09:26 AM
Who cares what you say!!! Your words are empty and express your groping about in darkness.

That is where you greatly err, for I prove my beliefs with scripture.

You cannot show anywhere in the Bible how obeying God is wrong. That teaching comes from Satan.

Epoisses
May 19th, 2016, 09:28 AM
That is where you greatly err, for I prove my beliefs with scripture.

You cannot show anywhere in the Bible how obeying God is wrong. That teaching comes from Satan.

You're the devil's sock puppet!

God's Truth
May 19th, 2016, 09:32 AM
You're the devil's sock puppet!

Matthew 7:2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Epoisses
May 19th, 2016, 09:34 AM
Matthew 7:2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

I am judging you and I will continue to do so 1Cor. 6:2

God's Truth
May 19th, 2016, 09:38 AM
I am judging you and I will continue to do so 1Cor. 6:2

Scripture does not nullify scripture.

Matthew 7:2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

God's Truth
May 19th, 2016, 09:39 AM
God does not tell us to accuse people and call them names.

Epoisses
May 19th, 2016, 09:41 AM
God does not tell us to accuse people and call them names.

You're an idiot. Jesus called the Syro-Phoenician woman a dumb dog.

God's Truth
May 19th, 2016, 09:56 AM
You're an idiot. Jesus called the Syro-Phoenician woman a dumb dog.

Where did he say 'dumb'?

Don't you care about what you say that GOD SAYS?

You do not understand why she was called a dog; you do not understand because understanding has not been given to you. Understanding is given to those who obey.

Jesus called her people dogs because they did not know God---they did not know God because they did not obey God.

We become a child of God and no longer as dogs who do not know their father when WE OBEY GOD.

Wick Stick
May 19th, 2016, 10:31 AM
The sacrifices covered sin and foreshadowed Jesus' sacrifice. However, for many they were not done in faith and the hypocrisy was abhorrent to God, i.e., they were rotten from a spiritual standpoint.
That doesn't really seem to me to resolve the conflict, but apparently it's good enough for you. I don't think we can go much farther down this road.

Peace

Wick Stick
May 19th, 2016, 10:37 AM
You do not understand why she was called a dog; you do not understand because understanding has not been given to you. Understanding is given to those who obey.

Jesus called her people dogs because they did not know God---they did not know God because they did not obey God.

We become a child of God and no longer as dogs who do not know their father when WE OBEY GOD.
During Jesus day there was a popular Jewish book, which we know today as 1st Enoch. It contains a parable version of Jewish history, in which all the different nations are named as different animals (chapters 85-90).

The Israelites are named 'sheep' there, while the Egyptians are 'wolves,' and the Canaanites are 'dogs.'

Jesus was making a reference to the popular culture of the day. I'm not even sure it's an insult (although it hardly seems like a compliment).

Jarrod

God's Truth
May 19th, 2016, 11:49 AM
During Jesus day there was a popular Jewish book, which we know today as 1st Enoch. It contains a parable version of Jewish history, in which all the different nations are named as different animals (chapters 85-90).

The Israelites are named 'sheep' there, while the Egyptians are 'wolves,' and the Canaanites are 'dogs.'

Jesus was making a reference to the popular culture of the day. I'm not even sure it's an insult (although it hardly seems like a compliment).

Jarrod

I just do not go by books that may are not have been protected from tampering. I only go by the Holy Bible.

As for the names of animals, being called a wolf or a dog is a bad thing.

The Jews were called sheep because they followed God.

God's Truth
May 19th, 2016, 11:53 AM
That doesn't really seem to me to resolve the conflict, but apparently it's good enough for you. I don't think we can go much farther down this road.

Peace

It does resolve the presumed conflict.

The scriptures tell us plainly that God says life is in the blood and He has given it to make atonement for ourselves.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.

God's Truth
May 19th, 2016, 11:58 AM
Where did he say 'dumb'?

Don't you care about what you say that GOD SAYS?

You do not understand why she was called a dog; you do not understand because understanding has not been given to you. Understanding is given to those who obey.

Jesus called her people dogs because they did not know God---they did not know God because they did not obey God.

We become a child of God and no longer as dogs who do not know their father when WE OBEY GOD.


God's love IS conditional.

If you obey God, you are His child.

If you do not obey Him, you obey the devil and are the devil's child.


John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

John 8:38
I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father


John 8:41
You are doing the works of your own father." "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."

John 8:55
Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word.

1 John 2:4
Whoever says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

1 John 3:8
The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.

1 John 3:10
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

1 John 3:15
Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

jamie
May 19th, 2016, 12:16 PM
I don't think we can go much farther down this road.


Good, it's just a dead end.

:dead:

Wick Stick
May 19th, 2016, 12:43 PM
I just do not go by books that may are not have been protected from tampering. I only go by the Holy Bible.

As for the names of animals, being called a wolf or a dog is a bad thing.

The Jews were called sheep because they followed God.
I'm not creating new doctrine here, just explaining a pop-culture reference in the Bible. It's like the place where Paul quotes the poem about the Cretians.

Also, if you're worried about tampering, don't be. 1Enoch is one of the texts present among the Dead Sea scrolls, so we pretty much know what we have is the same thing Jesus read. Our copy is that old.

Jarrod

Wick Stick
May 19th, 2016, 12:52 PM
It does resolve the presumed conflict.

The scriptures tell us plainly that God says life is in the blood and He has given it to make atonement for ourselves.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.
The fact that the Scriptures plainly state it IS the source of the conflict. Elsewhere Scriptures plainly state that God hates the sacrifices, incense (Isa 1:13), and feasts, and even implies that God did not command them. (Isa 1:14)

genuineoriginal
May 19th, 2016, 12:58 PM
I believe God doesn't make mistakes.
Why not?
The Bible shows God making mistakes several times.


Yes it would. Do you see a problem with that? I do.
God is not unrighteous, so if you have an opinion of what God does that seems unrighteous, the problem is with you.


If you're referring to Jamie's post, I'm not ignoring it. It just wasn't posted until after I was offline last night.
I wrote that before seeing jamies's post.

genuineoriginal
May 19th, 2016, 01:02 PM
Even if the sacrifices were offered in faith they still didn't do anything. We can't cleanse ourselves of sin by killing an animal.

You seem to think something done in faith is done in vain.

jamie
May 19th, 2016, 03:32 PM
The fact that the Scriptures plainly state it IS the source of the conflict. Elsewhere Scriptures plainly state that God hates the sacrifices, incense (Isa 1:13), and feasts, and even implies that God did not command them. (Isa 1:14)



Then they will heed your voice and you shall come, you and the elders of Israel, to the king of Egypt and you shall say to him, "The Lord God of the Hebrews has met with us and now, please, let us go three days journey into the wilderness that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God." (Exodus 3:18)

Why not let the Bible interpret itself instead of jumping to conclusions?

Robert Pate
May 19th, 2016, 03:56 PM
Then they will heed your voice and you shall come, you and the elders of Israel, to the king of Egypt and you shall say to him, "The Lord God of the Hebrews has met with us and now, please, let us go three days journey into the wilderness that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God." (Exodus 3:18)

Why not let the Bible interpret itself instead of jumping to conclusions?

Do you know why they call the Old Testament old?

All of that law stuff is passing away, Hebrews 8:13.

God's Truth
May 19th, 2016, 08:16 PM
The fact that the Scriptures plainly state it IS the source of the conflict. Elsewhere Scriptures plainly state that God hates the sacrifices, incense (Isa 1:13), and feasts, and even implies that God did not command them. (Isa 1:14)

I can hardly believe that you just do not understand that God did not like their offerings, incense, New Moons, Sabbaths, convocations...BECAUSE the people did evil and made those offering WORTHLESS.

God's Truth
May 19th, 2016, 08:20 PM
I'm not creating new doctrine here, just explaining a pop-culture reference in the Bible. It's like the place where Paul quotes the poem about the Cretians.

Also, if you're worried about tampering, don't be. 1Enoch is one of the texts present among the Dead Sea scrolls, so we pretty much know what we have is the same thing Jesus read. Our copy is that old.

Jarrod

It seems to me that all your reading of other books hasn't helped you in understanding some things in the Holy Bible. Why read those other books? As for the books being old, how does that insure they are writings from God?

Epoisses
May 19th, 2016, 10:52 PM
You seem to think something done in faith is done in vain.

You seem to think goat blood can cleanse from sin.

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Heb. 10:4

Epoisses
May 19th, 2016, 10:54 PM
God's love IS conditional.

If you obey God, you are His child.

If you do not obey Him, you obey the devil and are the devil's child.

God's love is unconditional spam artist.

Sinners have nothing to merit God's love.

God's Truth
May 19th, 2016, 10:57 PM
You seem to think goat blood can cleanse from sin.

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. Heb. 10:4

They were still commanded by God, and if God tells you to do something, then you had better do it.

It made the people outwardly clean.

It atoned for their souls, because God says so.

God's Truth
May 19th, 2016, 10:59 PM
God's love is unconditional spam artist.

Sinners have nothing to merit God's love.

God's love IS conditional.

If you obey God, you are His child.

If you do not obey Him, you obey the devil and are the devil's child.


John 8:44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

John 8:38
I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father


John 8:41
You are doing the works of your own father." "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."

John 8:55
Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word.

1 John 2:4
Whoever says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

1 John 3:8
The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work.

1 John 3:10
This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

1 John 3:15
Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.

Wick Stick
May 20th, 2016, 10:28 AM
Then they will heed your voice and you shall come, you and the elders of Israel, to the king of Egypt and you shall say to him, "The Lord God of the Hebrews has met with us and now, please, let us go three days journey into the wilderness that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God." (Exodus 3:18)

Why not let the Bible interpret itself instead of jumping to conclusions?
Just because I am drawing conclusions, doesn't mean I'm "jumping" to them. I have enough study hours in the Pentateuch that I would be qualified to write a doctoral thesis on the subject. (I won't be doing so, since I have no need for further degrees or ordinations.)

Wick Stick
May 20th, 2016, 10:35 AM
It seems to me that all your reading of other books hasn't helped you in understanding some things in the Holy Bible. Why read those other books?
Precisely for the purpose of understanding things in the Bible.

If you believe that everything in the Bible is sufficient to understand everything in the Bible, then you've been snowed, friend. That's a line of bull that is fed to Protestant laypersons primarily for the purpose of making sure that they don't start trying to think for themselves.


As for the books being old, how does that insure they are writings from God?Obv it doesn't. That, however, was not the question.

You expressed concern, specifically, as to whether the text had been corrupted in the years between Jesus day and now. The antiquity of our extant manuscripts addresses that concern.

Jarrod

jamie
May 20th, 2016, 11:53 AM
Just because I am drawing conclusions, doesn't mean I'm "jumping" to them. I have enough study hours in the Pentateuch that I would be qualified to write a doctoral thesis on the subject. (I won't be doing so, since I have no need for further degrees or ordinations.)


Jarrod, you said, "Elsewhere Scriptures plainly state that God hates the sacrifices, incense (Isa 1:13), and feasts, and even implies that God did not command them. (Isa 1:14)"

So what is the explanation for Exodus 3:18? With your extensive education in the Torah who commanded the sacrifices?

:cheers:

jamie
May 20th, 2016, 11:56 AM
That's a line of bull that is fed to Protestant laypersons...


What are laypersons?

genuineoriginal
May 20th, 2016, 01:33 PM
You seem to think goat blood can cleanse from sin.
No, but I do believe that God recognizes and approves of actions done in faith.

Hebrews 11:4
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Wick Stick
May 20th, 2016, 01:36 PM
Jarrod, you said, "Elsewhere Scriptures plainly state that God hates the sacrifices, incense (Isa 1:13), and feasts, and even implies that God did not command them. (Isa 1:14)"

So what is the explanation for Exodus 3:18? With your extensive education in the Torah who commanded the sacrifices?

:cheers:
You are basically asking me the same question I originally posed. You know that, right?

Exodus 3:18 contains a shrewd bit of politics, in which Moses asks Pharoah to grant leave, knowing full well that he will not. It's a bit like the scene in Braveheart where Mel Gibson goes out to parlay before the battle, and one of the men asks him where he is going. "To pick a fight!"

No amount of proof-texts resolves the problem. The original problem here is that there are texts on both sides that disagree with each other.

The conflict can be solved in several ways.

1) We can interpret the priesthood as being something figurative, and not something to be carried out literally, as 1M1M has done, following Barnabas.
2) We can interpret the priesthood as being a punishment from God, rather than an expression of His desires, in which case God lifts the punishment in an act of mercy.
3) We can believe one group of texts and dismiss the other.
4) We can believe that God changed His Mind about atonement, or miscalculated the effects the priesthood would have.

I do not find #3 be a viable option. I opt to keep the whole Bible. The 4th option, which you seem to subscribe to, also falls short. God does not change, or make mistakes.

I have been, for some time now, inclined to believe #2. In the incident of the golden calf, Israel incurred God's anger, and would have been destroyed without Moses' intercession. The establishment of a priesthood to intercede for the people is a practical means of saving them from God, but also a punishment to Israel, who bore the load of supporting a professional clergy and supplying meat for an expensive cult center and liturgy.

I admit, though, that I find option 1 fascinating, and not at all far-fetched. This position has the support of many early scholars of the church, as Barnabas and Justin. If true, it also adds an element to Jesus condemnation of the 1st-century Jews for their mode of practicing the Law. That is, perhaps He wasn't just condemning their additions to the liturgy, but also their literal practice of it, altogether.

#1 & #2 may be simultaneously true. God has a way of getting things to work together to make 1 action support multiple ends.

It is clear from a reading of the entire Old Testament, that the Levitical priesthood and associated law-keeping were not used by the faithful, even before Jesus life and death. Both the patriarchs before Moses, and the prophets that came after him, uniformly practice justice apart from the law. They all condemn the sacrificial system, and the high holy days. What use do the righteous have for sacrifice? None at all.

It is only in the books of history where we see the unfaithful backsliding part of Israel - those condemned under the Law - carrying out the literal letter of the Levitical priests duties.

Finally, consider King David. He failed repeatedly at upholding justice. During his life, he was a murderer and an adulterer, a mercenary and a traitor. His unbelief brought war, plague and discord both on his army, his village, his tribe, and the whole country. But even David recognized the insufficiency of the Levitical priesthood, as he sought after the prophet of God (not the priests), approached God directly in matters of penitence and absolution, and even went so far as to both change the existing priesthood, and name himself a priest. He even sought to change the liturgy of the priestly cult.

It seems clear to me at least. The Levitical priesthood, including its attendant statutes and liturgy, is intended for punishment for those who do not seek to do what is just. It is a millstone that the wicked may choose of their own volition to push uphill, as Sisyphus, laboring to establish their righteousness by means other than faith, even as it points them elsewhere.

No-one was ever justified by the blood of lambs and doves, the intercession of the Levite was never effectual, and it was only those who lacked ears to hear who appropriated the punishment upon themselves.

The just were always just because of their faith, and only ever paid any heed to the spiritual application of the Law, not the literal practice of the Law's attendant priesthood.

Jarrod

Ben Masada
May 20th, 2016, 02:34 PM
They were just following orders.


So Samuel said: "Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice and to heed than the fat of rams." (1 Samuel 15:22)

After this text, can you believe now in Jeremiah 7:22 that HaShem did not command that sacrifices be part of the religion of Israel? I hope not.

jamie
May 20th, 2016, 03:09 PM
The 4th option, which you seem to subscribe to, also falls short. God does not change, or make mistakes.


I don't subscribe to any of your four options. I subscribe to the premise that Levi was one of the twelve sons of Jacob.

Wick Stick
May 20th, 2016, 03:59 PM
After this text, can you believe now in Jeremiah 7:22 that HaShem did not command that sacrifices be part of the religion of Israel? I hope not.
This does seem like your kind of thread. I was just trying to resolve this apparent contradiction in the Old Testament.

Maybe you could read my post on the previous page and debate me a bit? I'm afraid my words are wasted on jamie.

Ben Masada
May 20th, 2016, 04:11 PM
Do you know why they call the Old Testament old?

All of that law stuff is passing away, Hebrews 8:13.

Now, I don't know whom to believe in, if in Jesus or in "saint" Robert Pate. Still at his time Jesus said that, to achieve salvation we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) It means that till then
there was nothing old in the Tanach. "OT" must be an item in the agenda of Replacement Theology.

Ben Masada
May 20th, 2016, 04:17 PM
This does seem like your kind of thread. I was just trying to resolve this apparent contradiction in the Old Testament.

Maybe you could read my post on the previous page and debate me a bit? I'm afraid my words are wasted on jamie.

It seems to me you have just recently arrived. I have never changed throughout the years I post in this forum. Apparent contradiction in the Tanach! That's not likely.

Epoisses
May 20th, 2016, 04:17 PM
No, but I do believe that God recognizes and approves of actions done in faith.

Hebrews 11:4
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

The verse says by faith he offered a better sacrifice ergo faith is what God was looking for.

Epoisses
May 20th, 2016, 04:20 PM
"OT" must be an item in the agenda of Replacement Theology.

The old covenant has been 'replaced' by the better covenant. Bye bye worthless rules that unbelievers trust in.

Ben Masada
May 20th, 2016, 04:33 PM
The old covenant has been 'replaced' by the better covenant. Bye bye worthless rules that unbelievers trust in.

Worthless rules! That's when I wish Jesus was alive to write a good response to this post of yours. He would start his post by asking you, "How can you imply that I am preaching a gospel of worthless rules? Telling people to listen to "worthless rules aka the Law?" I think that the best way to go is by erasing Luke 16:29-31 from the NT.

jamie
May 20th, 2016, 05:12 PM
I'm afraid my words are wasted on jamie.


Your words are wasted when you contradict scripture.

God's Truth
May 20th, 2016, 05:53 PM
Precisely for the purpose of understanding things in the Bible.

If you believe that everything in the Bible is sufficient to understand everything in the Bible, then you've been snowed, friend. That's a line of bull that is fed to Protestant laypersons primarily for the purpose of making sure that they don't start trying to think for themselves.

Obv it doesn't. That, however, was not the question.

You expressed concern, specifically, as to whether the text had been corrupted in the years between Jesus day and now. The antiquity of our extant manuscripts addresses that concern.

Jarrod

Everything in the Bible is sufficient to knowing everything in the Bible. Jesus give UNDERSTANDING to those who obey. What good is it if you read anything in the Bible or extra biblical writing if you do not do what Jesus says? Again, you will not have understanding until you obey.

Epoisses
May 20th, 2016, 09:22 PM
Everything in the Bible is sufficient to knowing everything in the Bible. Jesus give UNDERSTANDING to those who obey. What good is it if you read anything in the Bible or extra biblical writing if you do not do what Jesus says? Again, you will not have understanding until you obey.

can you write one post without the word 'obey'?

God's Truth
May 21st, 2016, 01:37 AM
can you write one post without the word 'obey'?

There is no love and salvation without it.

"If you obey my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commandments and remain in his love."

Robert Pate
May 21st, 2016, 08:43 AM
There is no love and salvation without it.

"If you obey my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commandments and remain in his love."


Are you prepared to stand before a holy God in the judgment and profess your righteousness?

jamie
May 21st, 2016, 09:10 AM
Are you prepared to stand before a holy God in the judgment and profess your righteousness?


Judgment begins at the house of God in the here and now.

God's Truth
May 21st, 2016, 09:51 AM
Are you prepared to stand before a holy God in the judgment and profess your righteousness?

I am before God now. I live in Him and He lives in me. I obey everything that God says, so how is it you think I am not righteous and prepared?

Are you prepared to stand before God and say you are righteous?

Tell me how you are righteous and how you think that happened? lol

beloved57
May 21st, 2016, 10:19 AM
There is no love and salvation without it.

"If you obey my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commandments and remain in his love."

Did Christ as a Man obey His own commandments ?

God's Truth
May 21st, 2016, 10:23 AM
Did Christ as a Man obey His own commandments ?

What?!!! Christ obeyed.

God's Truth
May 21st, 2016, 10:26 AM
Paul explains to us that HE PREACHED GOD's WORD and while he did that---he was CAREFUL to OBEY EVERYTHING, because he did NOT want to preach to others HOW TO BE SAVED BUT THEN BE DISQUALIFIED himself.

1 Corinthians 9:27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.


Do anyone want to be disqualified?

beloved57
May 21st, 2016, 10:29 AM
What?!!! Christ obeyed.

Yes the One I serve did. He was obedient unto death Phil 2:8

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

God's Truth
May 21st, 2016, 10:31 AM
Yes the One I serve did. He was obedient unto death Phil 2:8

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

YOU are the one who asked if Jesus obeyed!!!

JESUS says HE HIMSELF OBEYED and we have to OBEY TOO!!!

beloved57
May 21st, 2016, 10:35 AM
YOU are the one who asked if Jesus obeyed!!!

JESUS says HE HIMSELF OBEYED and we have to OBEY TOO!!!

I didn't ask that. I told you that He did Obey Gods commandments for those He Lived and died for, and it makes them Righteous Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Ben Masada
May 21st, 2016, 12:21 PM
Paul explains to us that HE PREACHED GOD's WORD and while he did that---he was CAREFUL to OBEY EVERYTHING, because he did NOT want to preach to others HOW TO BE SAVED BUT THEN BE DISQUALIFIED himself.

1 Corinthians 9:27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Do anyone want to be disqualified?

Nothing could help Paul, even to strike a blow whatever the size to his body. He himself had made it very clear that he could not get rid of his torn in his flesh. He already had decided that the only solution was to continue serving sin in his flesh although he thought well of the Law in his mind. (Rom. 7:25) I wonder if he ever read James 2:26 where we have that faith without the works of the Law is the same as a body without the breath of life.

Robert Pate
May 21st, 2016, 12:57 PM
I didn't ask that. I told you that He did Obey Gods commandments for those He Lived and died for, and it makes them Righteous Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.




Sure, that fits with Hebrews 2:9 "That he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERYONE".

beloved57
May 21st, 2016, 12:58 PM
Sure, that fits with Hebrews 2:9 "That he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERYONE".
Rabbit trail

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Robert Pate
May 21st, 2016, 01:05 PM
Rabbit trail

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You are always calling the apostles liars.

beloved57
May 21st, 2016, 01:12 PM
You are always calling the apostles liars.
More rabbit trail

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Robert Pate
May 21st, 2016, 01:17 PM
More rabbit trail

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You think that Jesus is a liar also because he said,

"For God so loved the WORLD, that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" John 3:16.

God's Truth
May 21st, 2016, 01:57 PM
Nothing could help Paul, even to strike a blow whatever the size to his body.
Paul is not a liar and he if he struck his body to make it a slave then that is what happened.


He himself had made it very clear that he could not get rid of his torn in his flesh.
The thorn in his flesh was not sin.



He already had decided that the only solution was to continue serving sin in his flesh although he thought well of the Law in his mind. (Rom. 7:25)
You are bearing false witness, for Paul never said he would continue serving sin. How are you so evil to speak that way about an appointed of the Lord?




I wonder if he ever read James 2:26 where we have that faith without the works of the Law is the same as a body without the breath of life.

Peter says the unstable...which is really the mentally ill...they misunderstand Paul. I believe all the scriptures, including the Jew Peter who says you are unstable.

God's Truth
May 21st, 2016, 01:59 PM
I didn't ask that. I told you that He did Obey Gods commandments for those He Lived and died for, and it makes them Righteous Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.



You asked if Jesus obeyed. All can investigate this and see that you asked that.

beloved57
May 21st, 2016, 02:00 PM
You asked if Jesus obeyed. All can investigate this and see that you asked that.
I know what I asked and you are evading the question.

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God's Truth
May 21st, 2016, 02:10 PM
Sure, that fits with Hebrews 2:9 "That he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERYONE".

Everyone who does what the Way says to do.

But you preach forget about what Jesus says and do what you MISUNDERSTAND what Paul says.

Two lost trying to correct the other!

God's Truth
May 21st, 2016, 02:12 PM
I know what I asked and you are evading the question.

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ALL have can be saved if they come to Christ in obedience.

beloved57
May 21st, 2016, 02:14 PM
ALL have can be saved if they come to Christ in obedience.
You are scared and evading the question. Did Christ obey God's commandments ? Did He obey the commandments that He tells others to obey ?

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God's Truth
May 21st, 2016, 02:31 PM
You are scared and evading the question. Did Christ obey God's commandments ? Did He obey the commandments that He tells others to obey ?

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You said earlier that you did not ask that about Jesus.

You ask dumb questions so you can give an even dumber solution.

beloved57
May 21st, 2016, 02:33 PM
You said earlier that you did not ask that about Jesus.

You ask dumb questions so you can give an even dumber solution.
I know what I asked and you are evading the question. You scared!

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God's Truth
May 21st, 2016, 03:42 PM
I know what I asked and you are evading the question. You scared!

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I evade nothing about Jesus.

Robert Pate
May 21st, 2016, 03:47 PM
I evade nothing about Jesus.

You just don't believe Paul, Romans 3:10.

beloved57
May 21st, 2016, 03:56 PM
I evade nothing about Jesus.
Yes you do. Did he obey God's commandments to the fullest extent of the law .

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jamie
May 21st, 2016, 04:10 PM
You just don't believe Paul, Romans 3:10.


Context, Robert. Context.


As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one." (Romans 3:10)

Was Abel righteous? Were Noah, Daniel, and Job righteous? Was Jesus righteous?

Will anyone be made righteous?

God's Truth
May 21st, 2016, 08:53 PM
You just don't believe Paul, Romans 3:10.

Paul is quoting Psalm14:1-3; 53:1-3; and Ecclesiastes 7:20.

Ecclesiastes SAYS there is not a RIGHTEOUS man who does what is right and NEVER SINS. Ecclesiastes tells us that there ARE RIGHTEOUS men but none who NEVER sin. Paul is explaining that the Jews were sinners just like the Gentiles. Nowhere in these passages or scriptures anywhere does it say none can believe and obey before being saved. In this same Ecclesiastes 7, Solomon tells us about wise men, righteous men, and about a man who pleases God. Solomon also tells us that he found one upright man among a thousand. The Bible tells us that there are people who want to do right, and about people who do right.

patrick jane
May 21st, 2016, 09:03 PM
Will anyone be made righteous?
2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV -

jamie
May 21st, 2016, 09:59 PM
2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV -


:thumb: Also Romans 5:19. As usual Robert was misquoting scripture by taking it out of context.

chair
May 22nd, 2016, 03:16 AM
It demands absolute and total perfection. Anything less than total perfection is sin.

One strives for prefection, but the Torah recognizes that people aren't perfect, which is why there is room for repentance. And for Mercy.


The Jews took the ordinances and the commandments and composed over 600 rules and laws for holy living that they called the Torah. Little did they know that they had just scratched the surface. If one took all of the ordinances and the commandments and really looked at what is required to keep the law, instead of hundreds of laws and rules it would be more like thousands. The Law of Moses involves ever facet of ones life, from the time that you get up in the morning until you go to bed at night everything is dictated by law.

There are over 600 ordinances and commandments in the Bible. If you include the oral law, you reach thousands. and indeed they include almost anything you can think of.


On the Sabbath you cannot do any work. Many Jews will not move a chair or open a drawer on the Sabbath because that is considered to be work.
This is complete nonsense. Where did you get this from?



I have heard that some Jews will not get out of bed on the sabbath, because throwing the covers off of the bed to get up is considered to be work.
More nonsense. Where did you get this from?

...
The purpose of the law is to show us that we fail to measure up to God's standards, Romans 3:23 and that we are in desperate need of savior...
This is Paul's sick theology. Sad that so many take this seriously.

beloved57
May 22nd, 2016, 04:47 AM
You just don't believe Paul, Romans 3:10.

Neither do you ! You may quote Paul, but thats it !

JonahofAkron
May 22nd, 2016, 06:59 AM
One strives for prefection, but the Torah recognizes that people aren't perfect, which is why there is room for repentance. And for Mercy.

There are over 600 ordinances and commandments in the Bible. If you include the oral law, you reach thousands. and indeed they include almost anything you can think of.

This is complete nonsense. Where did you get this from?

More nonsense. Where did you get this from?

This is Paul's sick theology. Sad that so many take this seriously.
It really isn't Paul's. It's the antinomianism that Marcion brought in. Christianity has been on that warpath since the second century.

I love your comments, by the way. Torah is grace and it's sad that more don't see that. For God to save Israel from bandage and put them back into bandage with Torah is a ridiculous idea.

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jamie
May 22nd, 2016, 08:10 AM
I love your comments, by the way. Torah is grace and it's sad that more don't see that. For God to save Israel from bandage and put them back into bandage with Torah is a ridiculous idea.


I think you meant bondage which was not the purpose of the Torah. The purpose of the Torah was to enable Jacob's people to know YHVH spiritually so that it might go well with them and they could stay in the land God gave to them. (Deuteronomy 4:40)

Robert Pate
May 22nd, 2016, 08:23 AM
Context, Robert. Context.


As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one." (Romans 3:10)

Was Abel righteous? Were Noah, Daniel, and Job righteous? Was Jesus righteous?

Will anyone be made righteous?


"There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

JonahofAkron
May 22nd, 2016, 09:43 AM
I think you meant bondage which was not the purpose of the Torah. The purpose of the Torah was to enable Jacob's people to know YHVH spiritually so that it might go well with them and they could stay in the land God gave to them. (Deuteronomy 4:40)
Absolutely. Freaking autocorrect.

Anyways, I agree.

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JonahofAkron
May 22nd, 2016, 10:12 AM
Yes you do. Did he obey God's commandments to the fullest extent of the law .

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Nope. He wasn't a woman or a priest (Levitical) or a king (on the throne) or a stranger. He could only live out what was addressed to Him.

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beloved57
May 22nd, 2016, 10:39 AM
Nope. He wasn't a woman or a priest (Levitical) or a king (on the throne) or a stranger. He could only live out what was addressed to Him.

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You know a different jesus from the Jesus l know and believe in.

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JonahofAkron
May 22nd, 2016, 10:59 AM
You know a different jesus from the Jesus l know and believe in.

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Ok. I guess that means yours isn't the Messiah. Mine is.

If He wasn't a woman, He cannot have followed the commands for women. I don't see where the problem is.

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beloved57
May 22nd, 2016, 11:04 AM
Ok. I guess that means yours isn't the Messiah. Mine is.

If He wasn't a woman, He cannot have followed the commands for women. I don't see where the problem is.

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Your messiah isn't mine, that is for sure!

JonahofAkron
May 22nd, 2016, 11:05 AM
Your messiah isn't mine, that is for sure!
Explain how He followed commands for a woman.

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beloved57
May 22nd, 2016, 11:07 AM
Explain how He followed commands for a woman.

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Read my threads if you want to know about the Jesus l know and believe in. I have explained my self in them.

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JonahofAkron
May 22nd, 2016, 11:11 AM
Read my threads if you want to know about the Jesus l know and believe in. I have explained my self in them.

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Sooooo..... You've explained how a man has followed commands for women? Interesting. I'm not going to look for them. I'll gladly join if you repost them here.

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beloved57
May 22nd, 2016, 11:13 AM
Sooooo..... You've explained how a man has followed commands for women? Interesting. I'm not going to look for them. I'll gladly join if you repost them here.

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I have explained what I know about the Jesus l know and believe in. I don't have any explanation for the jesus you believe in.

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JonahofAkron
May 22nd, 2016, 11:46 AM
I have explained what I know about the Jesus l know and believe in. I don't have any explanation for the jesus you believe in.

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So you've said. Where are the threads? I will read them. I will respond to your ideas.

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Ben Masada
May 22nd, 2016, 11:46 AM
[quote]Paul is not a liar and he if he struck his body to make it a slave then that is what happened.

That, never happened. The truth about him, he himself recorded in Romans 7:25. To serve the Law in his mind while serving sin in his flesh. This is the same as to serve two opposite masters.


The thorn in his flesh was not sin.

The thorn in Paul's flesh was a sinful condition if you read Romans 7:8-25. You cannot do that because you are afraid to turn the page of truth about Paul. Superstitions? I wonder!


You are bearing false witness, for Paul never said he would continue serving sin. How are you so evil to speak that way about an appointed of the Lord?

And you are so superstitious that no one can be more. The man is dead and you are still afraid to read the truth about him. I have given you the quote of Romans 7:25 more than several times and you cannot come out of your endless denial.


Peter says the unstable...which is really the mentally ill...they misunderstand Paul. I believe all the scriptures, including the Jew Peter who says you are unstable.

I pity you GT, how many times do I have to tell you that Peter never wrote a page of the NT! For two reasons he could not have written any thing in the NT. First, he was a Jew and a Jew would never write against his own Faith which was Judaism. And for the second reason, Peter was illiterate and ignorant in letters. (Acts 4:13) All NT writers were Hellenist former disciples of Paul. Are you afraid to know?

beloved57
May 22nd, 2016, 11:59 AM
So you've said. Where are the threads? I will read them. I will respond to your ideas.

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You don't know how to find threads?

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JonahofAkron
May 22nd, 2016, 12:51 PM
You don't know how to find threads?

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Obviously, I do. I don't want to search for them. You didn't want to answer my questions in favor of your responses in your threads. Provide them and I'll go through them. If not, don't argue with me and then say that your argumentation is in another thread. It's silly.

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beloved57
May 22nd, 2016, 01:09 PM
Obviously, I do. I don't want to search for them. You didn't want to answer my questions in favor of your responses in your threads. Provide them and I'll go through them. If not, don't argue with me and then say that your argumentation is in another thread. It's silly.

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Then start reading

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JonahofAkron
May 22nd, 2016, 04:43 PM
Then start reading

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Start reading what?

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beloved57
May 22nd, 2016, 04:51 PM
Start reading what?

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My threads

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JonahofAkron
May 22nd, 2016, 04:52 PM
Which one specifically deals with Messiah following the commands for women?

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Nanja
May 22nd, 2016, 05:07 PM
Which one specifically deals with Messiah following the commands for women?

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No doubt, you need to come to an overall understanding of the scriptures, per se.

I suggest beloved57's thread, Miscellaneous and Varied Truths of Scripture.
It's an excellent place to start!

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?76219-Miscellaneous-and-Varied-Truth-s-of-scripture!

~~~~~

Wick Stick
May 22nd, 2016, 06:58 PM
Everything in the Bible is sufficient to knowing everything in the Bible.
Just repeating a dogmatic statement doesn't make it so (nor is it a convincing argument).

Besides, the question that started this whole discussion empirically disproves it. If Jesus makes an allusion to something that is NOT in the Bible... you're going to understand that without using any sources outside the Bible? Nice logic, there.

Jarrod

God's Truth
May 22nd, 2016, 08:07 PM
Just repeating a dogmatic statement doesn't make it so (nor is it a convincing argument).
You saying that does not make you right.



Besides, the question that started this whole discussion empirically disproves it. If Jesus makes an allusion to something that is NOT in the Bible... you're going to understand that without using any sources outside the Bible? Nice logic, there.

Jarrod

It is what Jesus says. Why are you going against him?

beloved57
May 23rd, 2016, 06:42 AM
What Gods law requires, Jesus fulfilled it in His life and death. All the law required is summed up here Matt 22:37-40.

Wick Stick
May 23rd, 2016, 07:58 AM
You saying that does not make you right.
I'm right because what I'm saying is true. Nothing else is needed.


It is what Jesus says. Why are you going against him?
At the other forum I post at, this argument has become something of a joke. We all know that this is what someone says when they are out of valid logical arguments. Try not to be ridiculous, please.

Anyhow, Jesus didn't say that all truth is found in the Bible, nor did He prohibit reading books other than Scripture. I am not bucking against the goads.

You seem to be trying to bind what has been loosed. That is something about which the Lord did have some choice words.

God's Truth
May 23rd, 2016, 09:45 AM
I'm right because what I'm saying is true. Nothing else is needed.


At the other forum I post at, this argument has become something of a joke. We all know that this is what someone says when they are out of valid logical arguments. Try not to be ridiculous, please.

Anyhow, Jesus didn't say that all truth is found in the Bible, nor did He prohibit reading books other than Scripture. I am not bucking against the goads.

Your seem to be trying to bind what has been loosed. That is something about which the Lord did have some choice words.

You insults prove you do not have the truth. If you had the truth you wouldn't need to insult.

Jesus says he reveals himself to those who get his teachings and obey them.

"The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him."

Luke 1:1-4 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

John 20:30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Romans 16:25-27 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him–to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

The apostles from the New Testament received all the truth we need to guide us to eternal life. All we need to guide us to eternal life is written down in the Scriptures: John 16:13; 2 Peter 1:3; Acts 20:20, 27; Matthew 28:20; I Corinthians 14:37; 2 Timothy 3:16, 17.

Ben Masada
May 23rd, 2016, 11:59 AM
Which one specifically deals with Messiah following the commands for women?

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Sorry JA but this question of yours above makes absolutely no sense.

Ben Masada
May 23rd, 2016, 12:10 PM
[quote]Paul is not a liar and he if he struck his body to make it a slave then that is what happened.

Of course Paul is no longer a liar. He is dead. In death, one ceases all including being a liar.


The thorn in his flesh was not sin.

The thorn in Paul's flesh was a sinful condition. Read Romans 7:8-25. If you still don't catch the truth, you must be beyond repair.


You are bearing false witness, for Paul never said he would continue serving sin. How are you so evil to speak that way about an appointed of the Lord?

He did say he was an anointed of the Lord but his word enjoyed no credibility. Quote to me another saying that he was anointed.


Peter says the unstable...which is really the mentally ill...they misunderstand Paul. I believe all the scriptures, including the Jew Peter who says you are unstable.

Peter for two reasons never wrote a page of the NT. First, he was a Jew and a Jew would not write against his own Faith aka Judaism. Second, Peter was illiterate and illiterate people don't write books. (Acts 4:13)

JonahofAkron
May 23rd, 2016, 12:19 PM
Sorry JA but this question of yours above makes absolutely no sense.
I have trouble agreeing to the idea that Messiah fulfilled the Law so we don't have to. In order to point out the ridiculousness of this statement, I've asked people to provide evidence of Messiah(you and I don't agree on that point) following commands for women because if they can't provide them, the basis of their argument falls flat.

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God's Truth
May 23rd, 2016, 02:20 PM
Of course Paul is no longer a liar. He is dead. In death, one ceases all including being a liar.
That is dumb.
What Paul said is scripture and what he says is alive, it is the words of God.

As for Paul himself being dead, spirits do not die and Paul is alive in his spirit and he is with Jesus.



The thorn in Paul's flesh was a sinful condition. Read Romans 7:8-25. If you still don't catch the truth, you must be beyond repair.

I think you judged yourself exactly and you are beyond repair?
Paul beat his body and made it a slave. He doesn’t care how you judge him either.

1 Corinthians 4:3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.





He did say he was an anointed of the Lord but his word enjoyed no credibility. Quote to me another saying that he was anointed.

God anoints all the saved.
Paul was anointed with power during the laying of the foundation. God testified to what Paul said by allowing him to do miracles.



Peter for two reasons never wrote a page of the NT. First, he was a Jew and a Jew would not write against his own Faith aka Judaism. Second, Peter was illiterate and illiterate people don't write books. (Acts 4:13)
You are evil. You think you can pick and chose what you want from the New Testament, and try to use the scriptures of the New Testament to disprove it.

Wick Stick
May 23rd, 2016, 03:44 PM
You insults prove you do not have the truth. If you had the truth you wouldn't need to insult.

Jesus says he reveals himself to those who get his teachings and obey them.

"The person who has my commandments and obeys them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will reveal myself to him."

Luke 1:1-4 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

John 20:30 Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Romans 16:25-27 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him–to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

The apostles from the New Testament received all the truth we need to guide us to eternal life. All we need to guide us to eternal life is written down in the Scriptures: John 16:13; 2 Peter 1:3; Acts 20:20, 27; Matthew 28:20; I Corinthians 14:37; 2 Timothy 3:16, 17.
I didn't insult you. I stated facts. If you feel that reflects poorly on you, then do better in the future so that they will not.

Other than that, you quoted several scriptures in which the authors give their reasons for writing. None of these contradict what I have said.

And you have stated that everything necessary for eternal life is written in Scripture. I don't disagree. But that is not the same thing as saying that all possible truth is contained therein.

Everything I need to know to cook an egg can be gleaned from the pictures on the packaging of a skillet. Should I also avoid all cookbooks because the pictures are sufficient to this one food? Neither should I avoid all other texts because this one is sufficient to bring a man to salvation.

God's Truth
May 23rd, 2016, 03:57 PM
I didn't insult you. I stated facts. If you feel that reflects poorly on you, then do better in the future so that they will not.

Other than that, you quoted several scriptures in which the authors give their reasons for writing. None of these contradict what I have said.

And you have stated that everything necessary for eternal life is written in Scripture. I don't disagree. But that is not the same thing as saying that all possible truth is contained therein.

Everything I need to know to cook an egg can be gleaned from the pictures on the packaging of a skillet. Should I also avoid all cookbooks because the pictures are sufficient to this one food? Neither should I avoid all other texts because this one is sufficient to bring a man to salvation.

Your analogy is ridiculous, just like your denial of trying to insult me.

Give a teaching you have from another book, and we can test it against the Holy Bible to see if it corresponds.

Please, please do that.

Ben Masada
May 23rd, 2016, 04:04 PM
I have trouble agreeing to the idea that Messiah fulfilled the Law so we don't have to. In order to point out the ridiculousness of this statement, I've asked people to provide evidence of Messiah(you and I don't agree on that point) following commands for women because if they can't provide them, the basis of their argument falls flat.

Sent from my SM-N910T using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

Even if I agreed that Jesus fulfilled the Law, he did not do it in a perfect manner because, there has never been a man upon earth to have done only good and never sinned. (Eccles. 7:20) To break the Golden Rule is a sin against the whole second part of the Decalogue, because it says that we ought not to do unto others what we would not like they did unto ourselves. If you read Matthew 23:13-33, Jesus broke the Golden Rule 15 times only on that text. In another occasion Jesus caused physical and financial damage to the money changers when the Golden Rule was also broken. Anyway, you are already having problem agreeing with the idea that Jesus fulfilled the Law. He did but, not different from any other Jew. He fulfilled the Law the best he could but as a man when nothing perfect is expected to come from.

God's Truth
May 23rd, 2016, 04:12 PM
Even if I agreed that Jesus fulfilled the Law, he did not do it in a perfect manner because, there has never been a man upon earth to have done only good and never sinned. (Eccles. 7:20) To break the Golden Rule is a sin against the whole second part of the Decalogue, because it says that we ought not to do unto others what we would not like they did unto ourselves. If you read Matthew 23:13-33, Jesus broke the Golden Rule 15 times only on that text. In another occasion Jesus caused physical and financial damage to the money changers when the Golden Rule was also broken. Anyway, you are already having problem agreeing with the idea that Jesus fulfilled the Law. He did but, not different from any other Jew. He fulfilled the Law the best he could but as a man when nothing perfect is expected to come from.

Jesus fulfilled the old law perfectly. Jesus also gave us the commands for the new law, the new covenant.

Ben Masada
May 23rd, 2016, 04:38 PM
[quote]That is dumb. What Paul said is scripture and what he says is alive, it is the words of God.

Oh, scripture! You mean the gospel of Paul! I wonder why it was the opposite to the gospel of Jesus aka the Tanach. While Paul fought and militated all his life against the Law,Jesus would teach to listen to "Moses" aka the Law.(Luke 16:29-31)


As for Paul himself being dead, spirits do not die and Paul is alive in his spirit and he is with Jesus.

Oh! That's new to me. I did not know that Paul also resurrected from the grave. He already fabricated the idea of the resurrection of Jesus as we have in II Tim. 2:8 and now who fabricated the resurrection of Paul?


I think you judged yourself exactly and you are beyond repair? Paul beat his body and made it a slave. He doesn’t care how you judge him either.

To have made of himself a slave of sin is exactly his explanation of his own words that he served sin in the flesh while thinking well of the Law in his mind. What a joke! (Romans 7:25)


1 Corinthians 4:3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.

Paul did judge himself and came up with the verdict that he as a special person, he was not under the Law. Have you ever read "Crime and Punishment" by Dostoyevsky? I wonder if Dostoyevsky used the same formula of Paul to consider himself a special person above the Law.


God anoints all the saved. Paul was anointed with power during the laying of the foundation. God testified to what Paul said by allowing him to do miracles.

Except for his own word that he had been anointed by the Lord, can you mention to me someone else to confirm his anointing by the Lord? I don't think so. You know, I have a hard time to take Paul's word for granted.


You are evil. You think you can pick and chose what you want from the New Testament, and try to use the scriptures of the New Testament to disprove it.

You can't show any evidence to prove I am evil as I can that Paul was evil in the use of his policy of Replacement Theology throughout the NT to promote his gospel to erase Judaism from the face of the earth.

Ben Masada
May 23rd, 2016, 04:57 PM
Jesus fulfilled the old law perfectly. Jesus also gave us the commands for the new law, the new covenant.

The New Covenant which was made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah! If you read Jeremiah 31:31, you will find no reference to Christians. Now, at least you can see how spreading was the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. Even the New Covenant with Israel & Judah is being claimed by Christianity. Could it be that Jeremiah made a mistake to have mentioned Israel and Judah instead of Christianity?

God's Truth
May 23rd, 2016, 05:41 PM
Oh, scripture! You mean the gospel of Paul!
You do not know the scriptures, for Paul calls it the gospel of Christ, our gospel, and the gospel of God.


Paul calls it the GOSPEL OF CHRIST.

Romans 15:19 by the power of signs and wonders, through the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ.

1 Corinthians 9:12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more? But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ.

2 Corinthians 2:12[ Ministers of the New Covenant ] Now when I went to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ and found that the Lord had opened a door for me,

2 Corinthians 9:13 Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, others will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else.

2 Corinthians 10:14 We are not going too far in our boasting, as would be the case if we had not come to you, for we did get as far as you with the gospel of Christ.

Galatians 1:7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.

Philippians 1:27 [ Life Worthy of the Gospel ] Whatever happens, conduct yourselves in a manner worthy of the gospel of Christ. Then, whether I come and see you or only hear about you in my absence, I will know that you stand firm in the one Spirit, striving together as one for the faith of the gospel

1 Thessalonians 3:2 We sent Timothy, who is our brother and co-worker in God’s service in spreading the gospel of Christ, to strengthen and encourage you in your faith,


Paul also calls it OUR GOSPEL:

2 Corinthians 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.

1 Thessalonians 1:5 because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake.

2 Thessalonians 2:14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul AND PETER call it the Gospel of God.

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God—

Romans 15:16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles. He gave me the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

2 Corinthians 11:7 Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge?

1 Thessalonians 2:8 so we cared for you. Because we loved you so much, we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God but our lives as well.

1 Thessalonians 2:9 Surely you remember, brothers and sisters, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the gospel of God to you.

1 Peter 4:17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

1 Thessalonians 2:2 We had previously suffered and been treated outrageously in Philippi, as you know, but with the help of our God we dared to tell you his gospel in the face of strong opposition.

God's Truth
May 23rd, 2016, 05:51 PM
I wonder why it was the opposite to the gospel of Jesus aka the Tanach.
You think that because you do not know the truth.


While Paul fought and militated all his life against the Law,Jesus would teach to listen to "Moses" aka the Law.(Luke 16:29-31)
Jesus said listen to Moses because Moses taught a foreshadowing of Jesus. Paul taught the same thing.

God's Truth
May 23rd, 2016, 05:56 PM
Oh! That's new to me. I did not know that Paul also resurrected from the grave. He already fabricated the idea of the resurrection of Jesus as we have in II Tim. 2:8 and now who fabricated the resurrection of Paul?
We are spirit and flesh.
Jesus is the only one who went to heaven with his body.
The rest of us go to heaven in our spirit or to Hell/prison.

Wick Stick
May 23rd, 2016, 06:01 PM
Your analogy is ridiculous, just like your denial of trying to insult me.

Give a teaching you have from another book, and we can test it against the Holy Bible to see if it corresponds.

Please, please do that.
Keep moving those goalposts. They're so far from where you started I doubt you're even in the stadium anymore.

God's Truth
May 23rd, 2016, 06:09 PM
Paul did judge himself and came up with the verdict that he as a special person, he was not under the Law. Have you ever read "Crime and Punishment" by Dostoyevsky? I wonder if Dostoyevsky used the same formula of Paul to consider himself a special person above the Law.
“But wisdom is proved right by her deeds."



Except for his own word that he had been anointed by the Lord, can you mention to me someone else to confirm his anointing by the Lord? I don't think so. You know, I have a hard time to take Paul's word for granted.
Peter calls Paul’s words scripture.
In 2 Peter 3:15-16 Peter recognizes what Paul writes as scripture.


You can't show any evidence to prove I am evil as I can that Paul was evil in the use of his policy of Replacement Theology throughout the NT to promote his gospel to erase Judaism from the face of the earth.
You are evil. There is no earthly temple, you cannot worship according to the old law that way anymore.