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Predi
April 19th, 2016, 01:14 PM
I used to love this metaphorical story about a court trial... we are the defendant, God is the judge, the devil - prosecutor - and we have no lawyer - so we're hopeless, we lose, get sentenced, and then Jesus comes and takes the punishment for us so we are let go.

Then I realized if this metaphor says how it really is in the story of salvation... God doesn't really forgive us anything. The guilt is still punished and someone has to suffer.

Jesus did forgive some people before crucifixion (for example in Luke 7:48), God did that many times in Old Testament, too (e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13).

My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?

Totton Linnet
April 19th, 2016, 01:22 PM
people do not wish to be forgiven...they love darkness rather than light.

Jesus death for me on my behalf totally convinces me that He is willing to forgive and that He does love me and desires my fellowship,

jamie
April 19th, 2016, 02:21 PM
My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?


God told Adam that if he disobeyed regarding a certain tree he would die twice. Adam did disobey and in doing so he relinquished his life and his dominion to the devil who enticed Eve and deceived her. Adam was not deceived, he simply disobeyed God by his choice.

Because of Adam, death was appointed to all people. But each person only has to die once and then be judged with regard to the second death.

Jesus died to pay for the second death for those who accept his sacrifice of his life. Since Jesus had not sinned he was not subject to the second death and became the propitiation for the salvation of all who avail themselves of his love and sacrifice.

God's sentence of the second death had to be satisfied and Jesus has done so on our behalf. We can have eternal life instead of eternal death.

But it is our life and we must surrender it to Christ to live.

genuineoriginal
April 19th, 2016, 03:16 PM
I used to love this metaphorical story about a court trial... we are the defendant, God is the judge, the devil - prosecutor - and we have no lawyer - so we're hopeless, we lose, get sentenced, and then Jesus comes and takes the punishment for us so we are let go.

Then I realized if this metaphor says how it really is in the story of salvation... God doesn't really forgive us anything. The guilt is still punished and someone has to suffer.

Jesus did forgive some people before crucifixion (for example in Luke 7:48), God did that many times in Old Testament, too (e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13).

My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?
If you are using the court metaphor, Christ's death was not a legal payment for our sins.
It was the bar exam that Jesus passed in order to become our public defender.

patrick jane
April 19th, 2016, 03:16 PM
I used to love this metaphorical story about a court trial... we are the defendant, God is the judge, the devil - prosecutor - and we have no lawyer - so we're hopeless, we lose, get sentenced, and then Jesus comes and takes the punishment for us so we are let go.

Then I realized if this metaphor says how it really is in the story of salvation... God doesn't really forgive us anything. The guilt is still punished and someone has to suffer.

Jesus did forgive some people before crucifixion (for example in Luke 7:48), God did that many times in Old Testament, too (e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13).

My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?

For God's perfect will to be done, His son had to be the propitiation of sin to fulfill God's Law. God cannot be in the presence of sin and the only way to cleanse the world from sin is through His Son Jesus Christ. Now, because of Christ Jesus we are holy and blameless in God's eyes.

chrysostom
April 19th, 2016, 04:13 PM
My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus?

this is a good question
-a tough question
-I can only back into it
-Jesus wouldn't have suffered and died if it wasn't necessary
-somehow justice demands it
-when you make a mess, someone must clean it up
-your mother would often clean up your messes because she loved you so much
-that is the best I can do
-it is good enough for me
-sometimes we just have to accept the reality when we can't find a satisfactory explanation

Robert Pate
April 19th, 2016, 05:01 PM
"Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins" Hebrews 9:22.

Nick M
April 19th, 2016, 05:58 PM
Newsflash. The Lord Jesus Christ settled the sin issue. It is "square" in justice terms. Yet the vast majority of people go to hell.

jamie
April 19th, 2016, 06:04 PM
Yet the vast majority of people go to hell.


For how long?

KingdomRose
April 19th, 2016, 06:27 PM
I used to love this metaphorical story about a court trial... we are the defendant, God is the judge, the devil - prosecutor - and we have no lawyer - so we're hopeless, we lose, get sentenced, and then Jesus comes and takes the punishment for us so we are let go.

Then I realized if this metaphor says how it really is in the story of salvation... God doesn't really forgive us anything. The guilt is still punished and someone has to suffer.

Jesus did forgive some people before crucifixion (for example in Luke 7:48), God did that many times in Old Testament, too (e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13).

My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?

God really does forgive. He is like we might imagine a lion ready to pounce on "forgiveness." He is that eager to forgive. He knows we are not responsible for Adam's original sin of disobedience. We are all affected because of DNA....Adam couldn't make perfect, sinless children.

There has been something in the way of forgiveness, however, and it is because Jehovah is supremely JUST, and follows His own rules. One rule is: "An eye for an eye, tooth for tooth." There has to be a balancing out of an event or situation....a equal situation on the other side of the scales. We have Adam, formerly a perfect human, on one side of the scales, with the bed of the scales all the way down. There had to be a counter-balancing action on the other side, something that matched Adam's mankind-affecting action. Therefore, another perfect human had to balance it out, staying obedient, to counteract Adam's disobedience. Paul explained it this way:

"For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, the many will be made righteous." (Romans 5:19, NASB)

Then it simply remains for each of us to accept what Jesus did, and conform to his teachings.

John 3:16; I Peter 2:21

KingdomRose
April 19th, 2016, 06:29 PM
If you are using the court metaphor, Christ's death was not a legal payment for our sins.
It was the bar exam that Jesus passed in order to become our public defender.

No, it WAS a legal payment.

KingdomRose
April 19th, 2016, 06:32 PM
Newsflash. The Lord Jesus Christ settled the sin issue. It is "square" in justice terms. Yet the vast majority of people go to hell.

You don't know that. Or do you have some avenue of knowledge that none of the rest of us have? Only God knows who will be destroyed. The operative word, too, is destroyed, not sitting in a fire.

patrick jane
April 19th, 2016, 07:42 PM
God can do anything He wants

patrick jane
April 19th, 2016, 07:44 PM
. God doesn't really forgive us anything. The guilt is still punished and someone has to suffer.

Jesus did forgive some people before crucifixion (for example in Luke 7:48), God did that many times in Old Testament, too (e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13).

My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?

Really ?

Bradley D
April 19th, 2016, 09:26 PM
God cannot stand sin. A blood sacrifice was needed. The blood of spotless animal sacrifices was the spilling of innocent blood for the sins of the Israelites. However, the Israelites lost the significance and continued to sin. Jesus came to be the ultimate innocent blood sacrifice for all. Those who accept Jesus will be saved. No one can stand before God without their sins being cleansed by Jesus' blood.

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin" (1 John 1:7).

That is the way it is!

freelight
April 20th, 2016, 12:37 AM
I used to love this metaphorical story about a court trial... we are the defendant, God is the judge, the devil - prosecutor - and we have no lawyer - so we're hopeless, we lose, get sentenced, and then Jesus comes and takes the punishment for us so we are let go.

This is often used as an 'illustration', within some kind of 'vicarious atonement' model, however I don't think it really satisfies being the reason that God could forgive anyone, since its assuming a 'vicarious atonement' is 'necessary' as an assumption/presupposition, but this is all it is. Other atonement models exist, and we of more liberal theological horizons, could even question the validity of 'blood atonement' on various grounds, although certain symbolic or allegorical interpretations can be associated with 'blood'.

It also still holds that by the principle of 'self-responsibility', one is responsible to make atonement for his own sins by reparation/repentance, and if possible restitution (if he is able). Since a sinner suffers for his own sins, he is therefore also responsible for his own salvation, by choosing such. Another person cannot fully or wholly 'pay the price' or 'atone' for the sins of another, not while that one has any degree of 'responsibility' for his own sins and the ability to make amends or reform his ways. - and these are just a few points that challenge a 'vicarious atonement' concept.


Then I realized if this metaphor says how it really is in the story of salvation... God doesn't really forgive us anything. The guilt is still punished and someone has to suffer.

But we're back to the 'belief' that some one has to suffer for another sins. Why? Back to the principle of self-responsibility,....we all suffer for our own sins, and are also responsible for our own salvation (returning to God and his laws....returning to righteousness) by our own repentance. No one can repent for us! So, you see, 'vicarious atonement' has some problems. We also discuss the law of karma here (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116739-Christianity-vs-karma) :)


Jesus did forgive some people before crucifixion (for example in Luke 7:48), God did that many times in Old Testament, too (e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13).

Surely, and did you notice in the OT, a 'blood-sacrifice' was not ALWAYS needed to make an atonement for sin. Prayer, repentance, grain/flour offerings, money, and other tokens were accepted and availed to make 'atonement' back in those days. Also in the NT, Jesus forgave sins and commanded his disciples to forgive sins. Yep, he authorizes his disiples to forgive sins, heal the sick, cast out evil spirits, etc. This issue of 'forgiveness' is a wonderful subject in itself. Furthermore, we cant even enjoy forgiveness (a condition of free intercourse/fellowship) with God if we do NOT forgive our brother,....so forgiveness in some ways is 'conditional' on certain levels.


My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?

Since God is a Good and Loving Father, of course he can forgive sins just out of his own loving, merciful nature and will. Why would LOVE not forgive, if one qualified to receive that forgiveness by doing what is proper to receive it? It then becomes a question of where this idea/concept/belief of 'animal slaughter' or even 'human sacrifice' is necessary to effect an 'atonement'? Is such a theology rational or logical? That's something you have to decide for yourself, by the 'light' of God within your own soul, teaching you divine wisdom and reason. Good questions,...some don't question, so don't grow, evolve or progress along the path, they just have a rigid sterile belief-system, a 'theoritical' salvation, merely 'conceptual'. Some concepts may be better than others, but they are just 'concepts',....how useful they are is another question.

freelight
April 20th, 2016, 12:42 AM
God can do anything He wants

That's a popular assumption. Could he do something against his own will, nature or character? Could he make a rock heavy enough that he could not lift it? - ;)

Predi
April 20th, 2016, 05:08 AM
God told Adam that if he disobeyed regarding a certain tree he would die twice.

In Genesis 2:17 there is a "promise" that Adam will die on the day he eats from the tree. What do you mean "twice?"

chrysostom
April 20th, 2016, 05:21 AM
My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus?

your question is answered in the bible

Matthew 26:39 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26:39&version=KJV)

Predi
April 20th, 2016, 06:10 AM
(...) we of more liberal theological horizons, could even question the validity of 'blood atonement' on various grounds

We could. And the Bible never explicitly says that blood "helps" God to forgive.


We also discuss the law of karma here (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116739-Christianity-vs-karma) :)

I'm reading it, interesting! A little similar subject to the law of attraction!


Surely, and did you notice in the OT, a 'blood-sacrifice' was not ALWAYS needed to make an atonement for sin.

I noticed that blood was only a valid sacrifice for unintentional sin. Realizing it was a milestone in my understanding of the Bible.


Since God is a Good and Loving Father, of course he can forgive sins just out of his own loving, merciful nature and will. Why would LOVE not forgive, if one qualified to receive that forgiveness by doing what is proper to receive it?

"Why would love not forgive???" - period. Either forgiveness is free or not. I believe free equals unconditional.


It then becomes a question of where this idea/concept/belief of 'animal slaughter' or even 'human sacrifice' is necessary to effect an 'atonement'?

In my opinion animal sacrifice was made up by pagan religions, and Mosaic law was necessary not for God, but for people, who at the time would not believe God might forgive "just like that." Most of people still can't believe it today... But there are hints about this in the Bible, with the primary one of Hebrews 10:8 quoting Psalm 40:6.


Is such a theology rational or logical?

I think this question has a holy tradition of not being asked in churches :-)


That's something you have to decide for yourself, by the 'light' of God within your own soul

I know there are questions that God answers only individually... but I hope it should be possible to clearly explain such a major theological issue should be possible to explain clearly :)

Thank you for your input!

Predi
April 20th, 2016, 06:12 AM
your question is answered in the bible

Matthew 26:39 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26:39&version=KJV)

This verse says what was going to happen was necessary, but it doesn't say why.

Predi
April 20th, 2016, 06:15 AM
That's a popular assumption. Could he do something against his own will, nature or character? Could he make a rock heavy enough that he could not lift it? - ;)

The question with the rock... doesn't have a good answer, I'm afraid :)

As far as I know in Islam Allah can do anything he wants, for example he can lie or treat people unfair. I would put it this way - God can do whatever He wants but He chooses not to. He chooses only to do what is good, what is love.

Jamie Gigliotti
April 20th, 2016, 06:23 AM
your question is answered in the bible

Matthew 26:39 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+26:39&version=KJV)

You are right, it is. I also liked your last response. (Paraphrasing) That we have the choice to believe that Christ sacrafice was necessary to satisfy God's justice. Necessary to reconcile us with Him to relational intimacy. (Romans 3:26)

For those of us who have experienced Him and intimacy with Him Spiritually through Christ and His sacrafice know undoubtedly it was necessary.

Why? The more that you understand who He is, how holy and righteous He is the more you understand the necessity of it to bring us to Him.

But I do think it is paramount to keep this in mind on how much we can grasp here and now.

"For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, then I shall know fully,even as I have been fully known." 1 Corinthians 13:12

meshak
April 20th, 2016, 06:23 AM
This verse says what was going to happen was necessary, but it doesn't say why.

God is absolutely pure. He is perfect but we are not.

The original sin is so complicated and we do not understand.

God's holiness and pureness is beyond our imagination.

It takes faith to believe in God's perfection, pureness, righteousness.

I can trust God is Holy and Pure because it is said over and over that God is love through out the whole Bible even in the OT.

chrysostom
April 20th, 2016, 06:34 AM
This verse says what was going to happen was necessary, but it doesn't say why.

for that I go back to my first answer
-someone has to clean it up
-if
-you make a mess

Predi
April 20th, 2016, 06:38 AM
-when you make a mess, someone must clean it up

But love keeps no record of wrongs - 1 Corinthians 13:5 - plus when I sin, I always hurt someone or myself; that's the mess, and in literal sense the death of Jesus doesn't fix anything here, we still suffer earthly consequences...

chrysostom
April 20th, 2016, 06:46 AM
But love keeps no record of wrongs - 1 Corinthians 13:5 - plus when I sin, I always hurt someone or myself; that's the mess, and in literal sense the death of Jesus doesn't fix anything here, we still suffer earthly consequences...

now you are talking about what must happen to us
-first we are tested
-then we are purified
-actually changed
-our suffering is a big part of that

Clete
April 20th, 2016, 06:52 AM
I used to love this metaphorical story about a court trial... we are the defendant, God is the judge, the devil - prosecutor - and we have no lawyer - so we're hopeless, we lose, get sentenced, and then Jesus comes and takes the punishment for us so we are let go.

Then I realized if this metaphor says how it really is in the story of salvation... God doesn't really forgive us anything. The guilt is still punished and someone has to suffer.

Jesus did forgive some people before crucifixion (for example in Luke 7:48), God did that many times in Old Testament, too (e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13).

My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?

Justice is the problem!

We are not taught to to give blanket forgiveness in the Bible, by the way. We are taught to forgive AS we have been forgiven. Well, how have we been forgiven? We were forgiven because of Christ's sacrifice when we repented and trusted Christ for salvation. Where there is no repentance there is no forgiveness. What we are taught in the bible is to be ready to forgive if the offender repents. If he repents seven times forgive him seven times, if seventy then seventy, but never are we taught to forgive someone if they've not repented.

But your main question has everything to do with justice. If God did what you suggest and simply forgave everyone then He would have to ignore the demands of justice and He would then be unjust. It would be interesting to see a Calvinist attempt to answer your question. They already believe that God is arbitrary and can do whatever and remain just. They would therefore have no answer for your question (see Patrick Jane's post in this thread for a perfect example). If Calvinism is true then there was no need for Christ to suffer and die. But Calvinism is not true and so the issue of justice remains. Through the cross, God shows both His mercy and His justice. The justice He showed toward His only begotten Son is what makes it possible for Him to show us mercy.

Resting in Him,
Clete

chrysostom
April 20th, 2016, 06:55 AM
but never are we taught to forgive someone if they've not repented.

the Lord's prayer teaches that we must forgive in order to be forgiven

Clete
April 20th, 2016, 07:07 AM
the Lord's prayer teaches that we must forgive in order to be forgiven

Forgiveness is not even offered to us unless we repent and believe. Do I have to quote the bible directly?


Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and IF he repents, forgive him. 4 And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”

Matthew 18:21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.

Resting in Him,
Clete

csuguy
April 20th, 2016, 07:12 AM
This is something I would like to dig into more myself. However, I do think that it is incorrect to view forgiveness through Christ as justice. Justice would be getting what you deserve, justice would be death. Forgiveness is a mercy, and mercy transcends justice.


James 2:12-13 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy [m]triumphs over judgment.

I would also say that it is incorrect to assert that because of Christ that God now has the ability to forgive sin. He has always been willing to forgive one who repents earnestly. Take a look at David, for instance, who clearly deserved death for his transgressions. Rather, scripture says that Christ was given the authority to forgive sins from God - even before his sacrifice.


Matthew 9:5-8 Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, and walk’? 6 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—then He *said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.” 7 And he got up and [c]went home. 8 But when the crowds saw this, they were [d]awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

It is also not the case that either sin or death for it are completely done away with, at least at this point. Rather, we must die and be born again. I think this to be a more accurate understanding of what Christ's death accomplished: that just as he died, we must die - and as he rose, so too will we rise. It is the New Covenant which was established with Christ's blood - so that everyone be afforded the opportunity, the right, to become children of God.


Romans 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of [c]sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, [B]He condemned sin in the flesh


1 Corinthians 15:21-22 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in [h]Christ all will be made alive.


Luke 22:20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.


Hebrews 9:16-17 For where a [q]covenant is, there must of necessity [r]be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a [s]covenant is valid only when [t]men are dead, [u]for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.

jamie
April 20th, 2016, 07:24 AM
In Genesis 2:17 there is a "promise" that Adam will die on the day he eats from the tree. What do you mean "twice?"



but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. (Genesis 2:17)

The Hebrew word for surely is muth and the word for die is muth. Muth means die.

The penalty Adam incurred was that he would die and he would die a second death.

Adam died in the first millennial day.

jamie
April 20th, 2016, 07:52 AM
Another person cannot fully or wholly 'pay the price' or 'atone' for the sins of another...


If a person receives a traffic ticket they incur a debt to the law. Oftentimes defensive driving class can atone for the ticket and it is considered paid in full. However, if defensive driving class is not an option then the debt must be paid. If a wife gets a ticket her husband can pay the ticket and vice versa. No matter who pays the ticket the debt is satisfied.

A person cannot be judged until after they die, but if someone else pays the debt to sin the person is not required to die again. The debt is satisfied.

Jesus died once for sin but since he was not guilty of sin he could not die again for sin. That would have been a miscarriage of justice.

Since Jesus could not die a second death, God permitted Jesus to redeem others who became like him. This is referred to as grace, undeserved remittance of the second death. However, only those God personally selects can be offered this grace and then be judged according to what they say and do.

Predi
April 20th, 2016, 08:01 AM
What we are taught in the bible is to be ready to forgive if the offender repents.

So if the offender doesn't repent, we are supposed to hold the grudge??? Sorry, I don't see that in the Bible.

Forgive 77 times if he repents - these words were spoken before the Gospel of Grace was revealed. There was no known reason to forgive f

Besides, I would see it as a minimum requirement. Forgive always if he repents - at least that - but why not forgive without waiting?

Are we justified "freely, bu His grace" or because we repented?

And how can we have peace if God's forgiveness depends on our repentance? How can we be sure that our repentance is correct??

Predi
April 20th, 2016, 08:05 AM
I don't believe Paul the Apostle ever prayed the Lord's prayer.

Why would we have to keep asking God for forgiveness?

Will He punish us if we forget?

Aren't we just... forgiven?

meshak
April 20th, 2016, 08:07 AM
But love keeps no record of wrongs - 1 Corinthians 13:5

If we repent, our past sins will be forgiven. That's how you should read it.

God is absolutely pure and righteous.
We still will pay for our mistakes.

God does not play favoritism.

chrysostom
April 20th, 2016, 08:11 AM
I don't believe Paul the Apostle ever prayed the Lord's prayer.

is that good enough for you?
-here is a clue
-what paul doesn't say doesn't trump what Jesus says

Jamie Gigliotti
April 20th, 2016, 08:15 AM
Justice is the problem!

We are not taught to to give blanket forgiveness in the Bible, by the way. We are taught to forgive AS we have been forgiven. Well, how have we been forgiven? We were forgiven because of Christ's sacrifice when we repented and trusted Christ for salvation. Where there is no repentance there is no forgiveness. What we are taught in the bible is to be ready to forgive if the offender repents. If he repents seven times forgive him seven times, if seventy then seventy, but never are we taught to forgive someone if they've not repented.

But your main question has everything to do with justice. If God did what you suggest and simply forgave everyone then He would have to ignore the demands of justice and He would then be unjust. It would be interesting to see a Calvinist attempt to answer your question. They already believe that God is arbitrary and can do whatever and remain just. They would therefore have no answer for your question (see Patrick Jane's post in this thread for a perfect example). If Calvinism is true then there was no need for Christ to suffer and die. But Calvinism is not true and so the issue of justice remains. Through the cross, God shows both His mercy and His justice. The justice He showed toward His only begotten Son is what makes it possible for Him to show us mercy.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Forgiveness of others free us. Resentment and bitterness are slave masters! Reconciliation of relationships comes through contriteness, repentance.

Jamie Gigliotti
April 20th, 2016, 08:19 AM
I don't believe Paul the Apostle ever prayed the Lord's prayer.

Why would we have to keep asking God for forgiveness?

Will He punish us if we forget?

Aren't we just... forgiven?

The Holy Spirit convicts of sin and seeks to conform us into Christ's likeness, He does this with our cooperation, our continued turning to God with more and more of ourselves, our trust, our faith, our devotion.

chrysostom
April 20th, 2016, 08:19 AM
Why would we have to keep asking God for forgiveness?

we keep on sinning

Predi
April 20th, 2016, 08:21 AM
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. (Genesis 2:17)

The Hebrew word for surely is muth and the word for die is muth. Muth means die.

The penalty Adam incurred was that he would die and he would die a second death.

Adam died in the first millennial day.

What is the source of this incredible information?

My sources (I can find and quote, if requested) say that the phrase "surely die" is pretty common in Hebrew, occurs 49 times in the Old Testament, and never means 2 deaths.

chrysostom
April 20th, 2016, 08:25 AM
Forgiveness is not even offered to us unless we repent and believe. Do I have to quote the bible directly?

you forgot -

as we forgive our debtors

Predi
April 20th, 2016, 08:27 AM
we keep on sinning

You keep sinning?? Apparently you are not born of God (1 John 3:9)!

:rotfl:

Predi
April 20th, 2016, 08:33 AM
is that good enough for you?
-here is a clue
-what paul doesn't say doesn't trump what Jesus says

Of course it doesn't.

But most of addressees of Paul's Epistles never saw written Gospels. Don't you think Paul had to write everything that was really crucial for salvation?

Paul doesn't just say anything about Lord's prayer. He actually never tells anyone to ask God for forgiveness, or confess sins to God.

chrysostom
April 20th, 2016, 08:33 AM
You keep sinning?? Apparently you are not born of God (1 John 3:9)!

:rotfl:

no, I am not
-and
-what makes you think you are?

chrysostom
April 20th, 2016, 08:36 AM
Of course it doesn't.

But most of addressees of Paul's Epistles never saw written Gospels. Don't you think Paul had to write everything that was really crucial for salvation?

Paul doesn't just say anything about Lord's prayer. He actually never tells anyone to ask God for forgiveness, or confess sins to God.

does paul tell you he doesn't sin?

Cross Reference
April 20th, 2016, 08:47 AM
I used to love this metaphorical story about a court trial... we are the defendant, God is the judge, the devil - prosecutor - and we have no lawyer - so we're hopeless, we lose, get sentenced, and then Jesus comes and takes the punishment for us so we are let go.

Then I realized if this metaphor says how it really is in the story of salvation... God doesn't really forgive us anything. The guilt is still punished and someone has to suffer.

Jesus did forgive some people before crucifixion (for example in Luke 7:48), God did that many times in Old Testament, too (e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13).

My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?


Sure HE can and did. However, blood needed to be shed, perfect sinless human blood, had to be shed for the power of sin to be canceled out. Why?, because without it no one already forgiven would ever have been be able enter into the presence of God either by transfiguration or when they die. Sorry, no sin allowed. Not even the smell of it.

Predi
April 20th, 2016, 08:49 AM
does paul tell you he doesn't sin?

He actually calls himself blameless in Ephesians 1:4.

Predi
April 20th, 2016, 08:58 AM
Sure HE can and did. However, blood needed to be shed, perfect sinless human blood, had to be shed for the power of sin to be canceled out. Why?, because without it no one already forgiven would ever have been be able enter into the presence of God either by transfiguration or when they die. Sorry, no sin allowed. Not even the smell of it.

Thanks. This is the traditional explanation, the problem is I don't see it clearly stated in the Bible. "enter into presence... when they die..." Verse?

All I know is Jesus had lunches with sinners.

chrysostom
April 20th, 2016, 09:03 AM
He actually calls himself blameless in Ephesians 1:4.

did you miss the
-should be
-part?

Predi
April 20th, 2016, 09:18 AM
did you miss the
-should be
-part?

What I missed was that the default translation here is not very good. The word 'should' is not in Greek.

patrick jane
April 20th, 2016, 09:21 AM
All I know is Jesus had lunches with sinners.
No small feat, considering that every other person besides Jesus was a sinner, duh

jamie
April 20th, 2016, 09:26 AM
What is the source of this incredible information?

My sources (I can find and quote, if requested) say that the phrase "surely die" is pretty common in Hebrew, occurs 49 times in the Old Testament, and never means 2 deaths.


What is the Hebrew word for die and what is the penalty for sin? Job asked, "If a man dies, shall he live again?" (Job 14:14)

Job then answers his own question, "All the days of my hard service I will wait till my change comes.You shall call and I will answer You, You shall desire the work of Your hands." In the KJV hard service is translated appointed time which is a better translation.

We only live twice.

Totton Linnet
April 20th, 2016, 09:27 AM
It was death that man needed, death to sin, death to the old life, death and resurrection. Only Christ provides this.

If He had not died for us we would have had to die for ourselves.....then we would be dead....no resurrection

chrysostom
April 20th, 2016, 09:27 AM
What I missed was that the default translation here is not very good. The word 'should' is not in Greek.

lucky you

Cross Reference
April 20th, 2016, 09:28 AM
Thanks. This is the traditional explanation, the problem is I don't see it clearly stated in the Bible. "enter into presence... when they die..." Verse?

All I know is Jesus had lunches with sinners.


Ask yourself the question while keeping mind that before the cross, where did the righteous of the OT go when they died?

jamie
April 20th, 2016, 09:31 AM
Paul doesn't just say anything about Lord's prayer. He actually never tells anyone to ask God for forgiveness, or confess sins to God.


But John does. (1 John 1:9)

Predi
April 20th, 2016, 09:35 AM
Ask yourself the question while keeping mind that before the cross, where did the righteous of the OT go when they died?

I honestly have no idea where they went. I didn't even know the righteous and unrighteous were separated.

Predi
April 20th, 2016, 10:01 AM
But John does. (1 John 1:9)

Yes, the only verse in the Bible that speaks about confessing sins! Also, John says a few pages later who is born of God does not sins... so the literal, traditional exegesis has a little contradiction here.

How can I confess sins if I died to them? And God remembers them no more? Plus, I'm not even under the law! (Romans 6, Hebrews 8)? I can't see how this only verse would make me kneel every night and make a list of my transgressions, if a hundred other verses tell me I don't have to anymore.

Jamie Gigliotti
April 20th, 2016, 10:51 AM
Yes, the only verse in the Bible that speaks about confessing sins! Also, John says a few pages later who is born of God does not sins... so the literal, traditional exegesis has a little contradiction here.

How can I confess sins if I died to them? And God remembers them no more? Plus, I'm not even under the law! (Romans 6, Hebrews 8)? I can't see how this only verse would make me kneel every night and make a list of my transgressions, if a hundred other verses tell me I don't have to anymore.

There is a Spiritual transformation that is a process, it is not an instaneous thing.
"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end eternal life." Romans 6:22

jamie
April 20th, 2016, 11:46 AM
Yes, the only verse in the Bible that speaks about confessing sins! Also, John says a few pages later who is born of God does not sins... so the literal, traditional exegesis has a little contradiction here.

How can I confess sins if I died to them? And God remembers them no more? Plus, I'm not even under the law! (Romans 6, Hebrews 8)? I can't see how this only verse would make me kneel every night and make a list of my transgressions, if a hundred other verses tell me I don't have to anymore.



If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
(1 John 5:16-17)

Which sins lead to death?

Predi
April 20th, 2016, 11:47 AM
There is a Spiritual transformation that is a process, it is not an instaneous thing.
"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end eternal life." Romans 6:22

I'm sorry but I can't see "have been set free from sin" as a process. Perhaps because English is not my primary language?

Jamie Gigliotti
April 20th, 2016, 11:49 AM
Yes, the only verse in the Bible that speaks about confessing sins! Also, John says a few pages later who is born of God does not sins... so the literal, traditional exegesis has a little contradiction here.

How can I confess sins if I died to them? And God remembers them no more? Plus, I'm not even under the law! (Romans 6, Hebrews 8)? I can't see how this only verse would make me kneel every night and make a list of my transgressions, if a hundred other verses tell me I don't have to anymore.

The point is to continue to press on, to turn to God more and more...seeking forgiveness along the way... Repentance.

"Not that I have obtained all this or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me His own." Philippians 3:12

Jamie Gigliotti
April 20th, 2016, 11:54 AM
I'm sorry but I can't see "have been set free from sin" as a process. Perhaps because English is not my primary language?

How bout this one... Maybe a little clearer picture.
"And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit." 2 Corinthians 3:18

Predi
April 20th, 2016, 12:15 PM
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death.
(1 John 5:16-17)

Which sins lead to death?

To be honest I have no idea. I can't see enough information in the text to state anything without doubts.

Predi
April 20th, 2016, 12:18 PM
The point is to continue to press on, to turn to God more and more...seeking forgiveness along the way... Repentance.

I'm the kind of guy who always asks, "What if?"

What if a Christian doesn't press on? What if they're... discouraged, lazy, their faith weakens?

Does it mean they're not saved? Or they never were?

meshak
April 20th, 2016, 12:25 PM
He actually calls himself blameless in Ephesians 1:4.

He was blameless observing Judaism.

Cross Reference
April 20th, 2016, 12:36 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Jamie Gigliotti View Post
There is a Spiritual transformation that is a process, it is not an instaneous thing.
"But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end eternal life." Romans 6:22

Set free from sin?? How 'bout is was only the power sin from which we have been set free?

If you don't agree then please explain what overcoming sin for the Christian is all about?

Lon
April 20th, 2016, 12:49 PM
I used to love this metaphorical story about a court trial... we are the defendant, God is the judge, the devil - prosecutor - and we have no lawyer - so we're hopeless, we lose, get sentenced, and then Jesus comes and takes the punishment for us so we are let go.

Then I realized if this metaphor says how it really is in the story of salvation... God doesn't really forgive us anything. The guilt is still punished and someone has to suffer.

Jesus did forgive some people before crucifixion (for example in Luke 7:48), God did that many times in Old Testament, too (e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13).

My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?

Hebrews 9:22 Those who rep you don't believe the Bible, so unless you want to chuck out your Bible and chuck God as scripture portrays Him, then don't pay much attention. We have a few creeps on TOL.

Back to an answer. God certainly 'can' do anything. What we know is that He chose 'this' way of doing it. I can give you a few reasons why. 1) Life is in the blood Leviticus 17:11 Jesus laid down His life, to save ours. John 15:13 by metaphor, God reached into our dilemma and used powerful statements to show us love and our need for a Savior. 2) Death on a Cross shows us the dire situation of sin. In Genesis, Adam and Eve were told they would surely die. They didn't believe it and neither do/might we. Something dramatic shows not only God's incredible love and a showing of an extent of that love (John 3:16), but that sin places us in a desperate place Ephesians 2:12
3) Substitution. It comes from the greatest love being one laying down His life and it also shows the seriousness of our sin condition, and finally (for my short answer), it destroys the sin barrier between God and man and takes care of the debt. If you wrong me, you owe me a debt. Jesus forgave debt as a foreshadow of what He was going to do on the cross. O.T. saints were forgiven as a foreshadow of the same. The 'act' of forgiveness, which happened to be Christ's life and death, was the impetus of forgiveness. It took care of our debt, our separation from God, our ensuing acts of sin, etc. "What did Christ's death, burial, and resurrection accomplish" is a topic I've seen on the internet and with books directed to answering that. It is a good question. In an overview, His death shows us that we are drastically separated from God and need a Savior. There is no other name, under heaven, given to men, whereby we must be saved. Acts 4:12

Tell those giving you reps for 'questioning' that they are NOT okay with God, that their sins aren't just a sweeping under the rug. They aren't just 'okay' with Him. They have no place to go if they reject the only begotten Son of God. Acts 4:12 John 6:67-68

You have a lot of heretics/cultists giving you feedback in thread. Realize you are getting a lot of information from an incredibly small minority. That kind of maverick lone-ranger opinion is always going to be off-the-wall idiosyncratic. Not always bad, but some of them drink their own koolaid and think that poison is the only drink out there, even among milk and other legitimate beverages :dizzy:

These New-age Christ-rejectors left Jesus just like then. John 6:53-58

meshak
April 20th, 2016, 12:52 PM
I'm the kind of guy who always asks, "What if?"

What if a Christian doesn't press on? What if they're... discouraged, lazy, their faith weakens?

Does it mean they're not saved? Or they never were?



He will not give us burden we cannot carry.

If or when we are weary Jesus will tell us to rest.

Jesus says His yoke is easy and burden is light.

Jamie Gigliotti
April 20th, 2016, 01:28 PM
I'm the kind of guy who always asks, "What if?"

What if a Christian doesn't press on? What if they're... discouraged, lazy, their faith weakens?

Does it mean they're not saved? Or they never were?

"Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows that will he also reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh, will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to The Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life." Galatians 6:7-8
Some choose to turn away from God.

"Beloved I urge you as soujouners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul." 1 Peter 2:11

Jamie Gigliotti
April 20th, 2016, 01:30 PM
Set free from sin?? How 'bout is only the power sin from we have been set free?

If you don't agree then please explain what overcoming sin for the Christian is all about?

I think there was a typo, not sure what you were asking?

1Mind1Spirit
April 20th, 2016, 01:52 PM
In Genesis, Adam and Eve were told they would surely die. They didn't believe it and neither do/might we.

Watch you talkin' 'bout Willis?

Adam not being deceived means he either believed God or was ignorant as to what it meant to die.

Let go of that bible college trash, it's littering up the Holy Ground of yer mind.

Be like Paul, take a trip to the burning bush.

Lon
April 20th, 2016, 01:59 PM
Watch you talkin' 'bout Willis?

Adam not being deceived means he either believed it or was ignorant to what to die meant.

Let go of that bible college trash, littering up the Holy Ground.
Er, let's let go of the 'vitriol' trash littering up Holy Ground :noway:

I'll respond to you just fine without inane banter. Otherwise? :nono: Try again?

Predi
April 20th, 2016, 02:25 PM
Hebrews 9:22 Those who rep you don't believe the Bible, so unless you want to chuck out your Bible and chuck God as scripture portrays Him, then don't pay much attention. We have a few creeps on TOL.

I believe many of these "creeps" do believe the Bible, but it seems that interpretation is like a life style, everyone has their own one :)


Back to an answer. God certainly 'can' do anything. What we know is that He chose 'this' way of doing it.

I know He can... but what if the doctrine defies logic in my opinion?

Until now I always thought, "If a doctrine defies logic, try to understand it, there must be something wrong with my logic."

But why assume my logic is always wrong and end every conversation with, "It's beyond understanding?". No, I'm not implying you're doing it, it was just a side note :)

He definitely chose His way, the question is if what we think He chose is what He really chose :)


In an overview, His death shows us that we are drastically separated from God and need a Savior.

We still are? I thought we were, what about 2 Corinthians 5:19?


You have a lot of heretics/cultists giving you feedback in thread. Realize you are getting a lot of information from an incredibly small minority.


I don't get impressed with numbers :) Sometimes 1 in a million is right :)


Thank you for your input, I'll have to think about it deeper!

1Mind1Spirit
April 20th, 2016, 02:41 PM
Er, let's let go of the 'vitriol' trash littering up Holy Ground :noway:

I'll respond to you just fine without inane banter. Otherwise? :nono: Try again?

Just got back in from feedin' horses and edited that last post.

Please reread it :)

Cross Reference
April 20th, 2016, 02:55 PM
I think there was a typo, not sure what you were asking?

I corrected it. Sorry. It must be my age. I drop words a lot.

jamie
April 20th, 2016, 02:57 PM
To be honest I have no idea. I can't see enough information in the text to state anything without doubts.


James says that God has given us a perfect law. (James 1:25) A perfect law need not be modified by additions or deletions. It is perfect.

James referred to this perfect law as the Law of Liberty. James then gives two of the instructions of this perfect law. (James 2:11-12)

This law was God's covenant and was placed in the ark of the covenant. In addition to the covenant, Israel was given statutes and judgments that were recorded in the Book of the Law and placed beside the ark of the covenant but not in it. (Deuteronomy 31:26)

The Book of the Law was temporary. (Galatians 3:19)

Sin unto death is the violation of God's covenant.

1Mind1Spirit
April 20th, 2016, 03:00 PM
I'll respond to you just fine without inane banter. Otherwise? :nono: Try again?

Really not interested in any response till yuh get back from that trip. ;)

Lon
April 20th, 2016, 03:16 PM
I believe many of these "creeps" do believe the Bible, but it seems that interpretation is like a life style, everyone has their own one :) Again, you have what the majority of people read, then walk away with as theology, and then you have about 1%. In math class, I mostly got the same answers with 99% of the class. When I didn't? Rarely but wrong.


I know He can... but what if the doctrine defies logic in my opinion?Well for one, I think I've given 3 points among a few others, that 1) demand it is logical and 2) has it making very good sense. Are either of us stupid? No, but perhaps one isn't as careful as the next.


Until now I always thought, "If a doctrine defies logic, try to understand it, there must be something wrong with my logic." Something may be wrong with our thinking, but we can 'logically' arrive at wrong answers. I didn't always get math answers right. I am logical.


But why assume my logic is always wrong and end every conversation with, "It's beyond understanding?". No, I'm not implying you're doing it, it was just a side note :) Percentages. If 99 out of 100 have the same answer, I can rest a little easier. If I am the one with a different answer? Some on here are so stinking confident with that, it is beyond reasonable or intelligent to me. When we put all the classes together (like on TOL) it is even worse. Those one-in-every-99 all have a different answer, come here and spout it off and worse, the have different answers even from one another! Exponentially, it then becomes 10 in 990 and nearly all of them with different answers. It is almost comical, if it weren't sad, that they then argue with each other on TOL after the other 990 of us give up a hopeless cause.


He definitely chose His way, the question is if what we think He chose is what He really chose :)
Again 990 against one or two. When we keep going, it is 99900 to 100, and maybe 5 of the 100 have the same answer. Percentages don't 'prove' a point, but they do indeed show exponential probability. Take the number and it is 99% sure that one guy by himself is wrong. God doesn't depend on percentages, and even says the way is narrow BUT it seems unreasonable to me, among those professing to be Christian 99900 of them don't make it? TOO narrow in my opinion. As far as my expectation, there haven't been many Christians, although the full number is encouraging lately. So, just by the numbers alone, I believe contention is unreasonable. Not only that, I'm one of the guys that came up with the same answer as the 99900. I didn't copy and did my own work. Sure, there are kids in every class that copy. Usually even those kids are smart at it. They aren't copying but the smarter kids. At least they are smart enough at that point. Food for though and I think with at least a little weight and worth a few moments of consideration. "IF" you followed me this far, you are well beyond most. I can't get a cultist to understand the unlikelihood to save my or their life :(


We still are? I thought we were, what about 2 Corinthians 5:19?
You are questioning the very act, so 'we' is inclusive as to the need of the death of Jesus Christ. See John 16:7

At this point, I'd warn about giving the one in 99 answer. For what it is worth, it definitely doesn't look right and I tend to do well on these. For what it is worth.




I don't get impressed with numbers :) Sometimes 1 in a million is right :)
Ah. Interesting. Every last one :think:



Thank you for your input, I'll have to think about it deeper!
Better. Dismissing the numbers has me a bit discouraged.

Lon
April 20th, 2016, 03:27 PM
Just got back in from feedin' horses and edited that last post.

Please reread it :)
Just a bit of addition. Your 'no education' against my "education and then some", and in multiples? Sorry, it might work for you, but not for me. Its a bit too arrogant and big for your britches. Worse? I think you genuinely do know better from our previous conversations.

Two points in passing: 1) I wasn't necessarily talking about you as a cultist so you probably jumped on an offense 2) this particular is an odd one to have latched on to. There isn't really anything for you to make a big deal about on this particular. It isn't worth the holy ground accusation or a bash on another's education. Not sure why you thought it was. Pick something else. I'll disagree here and suggest you let it go. It isn't a point where one's doctrine or theology stands or falls. All ground concerning the Lord is holy ground, so I don't contest that point, but it looks a bit like a windmill attack to me. I might just let you 'conquer' it while looking at you out the window and drinking coffee, Don Quixote.

genuineoriginal
April 20th, 2016, 05:05 PM
No, it WAS a legal payment.
It was a show of obedience, not a legal payment.
Jesus the Messiah shed His own blood to confirm the New Covenant, not to make a payment for someone else's sins.

1Mind1Spirit
April 20th, 2016, 08:25 PM
Just a bit of addition. Your 'no education' against my "education and then some", and in multiples? Sorry, it might work for you, but not for me. Its a bit too arrogant and big for your britches. Worse? I think you genuinely do know better from our previous conversations.

Two points in passing: 1) I wasn't necessarily talking about you as a cultist so you probably jumped on an offense 2) this particular is an odd one to have latched on to. There isn't really anything for you to make a big deal about on this particular. It isn't worth the holy ground accusation or a bash on another's education. Not sure why you thought it was. Pick something else. I'll disagree here and suggest you let it go. It isn't a point where one's doctrine or theology stands or falls. All ground concerning the Lord is holy ground, so I don't contest that point, but it looks a bit like a windmill attack to me. I might just let you 'conquer' it while looking at you out the window and drinking coffee, Don Quixote.

Sorry but none of this flies.

I pointed out your error and how you got it.

Even pointed out how to remedy your dilemma.

That being admitting your error and accepting I might know something you don't.

As far as your points in passing you were being quite dishonest about my past and present position on your education, and your thinking I had some knee jerk reaction to anything you post is comical to say the least.

freelight
April 20th, 2016, 09:46 PM
What we are taught in the bible is to be ready to forgive if the offender repents. If he repents seven times forgive him seven times, if seventy then seventy, but never are we taught to forgive someone if they've not repented.



I addressed this in a former post here (http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?2951-Unconditional-forgiveness), with textual proofs. (I recommend reading this before responding to my points as a whole). There is only one verse that mentions about forgiving IF A PERSON REPENTS,....while all others do not have this 'requirement',...and do not even mention it. Therefore it cannot be assumed that in all cases a person must repent, and I explain reasons why in my linked blog-post. Not to split hairs here, but whether one repents or not is a situational issue which may affect certain cases, but I think there is more to forgiveness, and from our own point of view it is liberating us from the clutches of unforgiveness (which brings about its own dis-ease)....so that we are 'freed' when we forgive, and we freely forgive because God freely forgives us, and we forgive as we are forgiven in certain cases where we know another has forgiven us. Therefore a dynamic of variance exists in how the principle is carried out in various situations.

Lon
April 20th, 2016, 10:01 PM
Sorry but none of this flies.
We haven't even gotten into anything yet. The ONLY thing on the table was a suggestion that you pull back a bit on the banter.


I pointed out your error and how you got it.
:nono: Let's look (though, again, I'd prefer you to actually show yourself a worthy workman for debate/discussion):
In Genesis, Adam and Eve were told they would surely die. They didn't believe it and neither do/might we. Gen 3:3 but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
Gen 3:4 But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.
Gen 3:5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Gen 3:6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

So, she ate it. Did she believe she'd die? Adam saw what happened with Eve, took the fruit. Were both of them under the impression that 'they surely didn't die' as the serpent said? Is this really what you wanted to argue about? I said a few things about cultists and problems with their thinking. Why didn't you jump all over that? Are you sure this is what you wanted to make such a fuss over???
What in the world would it have had to do with my seminary education? What is so monumental that it would cast dispersions on it? I don't believe it does, but if you do, knock yourself out.

Even pointed out how to remedy your dilemma.

That being admitting your error and accepting I might know something you don't.
No. Not very clearly.


As far as your points in passing you were being quite dishonest about my past and present position on your education, and your thinking I had some knee jerk reaction to anything you post is comical to say the least.
Fine, have a comical rabbit-trail. You have, at times, a need to banter that seems to me 'for no apparent reason.

Ben Masada
April 20th, 2016, 10:40 PM
[quote]I used to love this metaphorical story about a court trial... we are the defendant, God is the judge, the devil - prosecutor - and we have no lawyer - so we're hopeless, we lose, get sentenced, and then Jesus comes and takes the punishment for us so we are let go.

God has nothing to do with the crucifixion of Jesus. Jesus was crucified because his disciples were acclaiming him king of the Jews in Jerusalem. This was considered an act of insurrection against Rome. Insurrection was punished in Israel with crucifixion. (Luke 19:37-40)


Then I realized if this metaphor says how it really is in the story of salvation... God doesn't really forgive us anything. The guilt is still punished and someone has to suffer.

This is more to the point. God doesn't really forgive us anything. Somehow, we are always punished for our sins. It is called the law of cause-and-effect. But the Lord does give us ways out of the sinful way we are trailing. As for instance, repentance and obedience of His Law. (Isaiah 1:18,19)


Jesus did forgive some people before crucifixion (for example in Luke 7:48), God did that many times in Old Testament, too (e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13).

The point in the case of 2 Samuel 12;13 was to teach that once dead, no one will ever return from the grave. King David knew better


My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?

God can and does every thing but one, the thing you wish He did or should have done. Besides, God's blessings are conditional. We must do our part which is obedience of the Law. Jesus himself said: If you to the Temple to plea for your salvation and suddenly you are reminded to have offended your neighbor, you must leave all behind and go set things right with him or her and only then return to the Temple. (Mat. 5:23,24)
Jesus' crucifixion did not happen for the forgiveness of our sins because the Prophets of the Most High had been instructed to teach that no one can die for the sins of another. (Jeremiah 31:30; Ezekiel 18:20)

1Mind1Spirit
April 21st, 2016, 02:04 AM
We haven't even gotten into anything yet. The ONLY thing on the table was a suggestion that you pull back a bit on the banter.


:nono: Let's look (though, again, I'd prefer you to actually show yourself a worthy workman for debate/discussion): Gen 3:3 but God said, 'You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
Gen 3:4 But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.
Gen 3:5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Gen 3:6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

So, she ate it. Did she believe she'd die? Adam saw what happened with Eve, took the fruit. Were both of them under the impression that 'they surely didn't die' as the serpent said? Is this really what you wanted to argue about? I said a few things about cultists and problems with their thinking. Why didn't you jump all over that? Are you sure this is what you wanted to make such a fuss over???
What in the world would it have had to do with my seminary education? What is so monumental that it would cast dispersions on it? I don't believe it does, but if you do, knock yourself out.

No. Not very clearly.


Fine, have a comical rabbit-trail. You have, at times, a need to banter that seems to me 'for no apparent reason.

It isn't that hard to figure out.

You stated Adam didn't believe God.

Yet scripture says he did.

It is the same vanity that caused Adam to hearken to his wife, that stops you from admitting your error in trying to buy what is not for sale.

1 Timothy 2:14 |
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Genesis 3:17
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Lon
April 21st, 2016, 02:14 AM
It isn't that hard to figure out.

You stated Adam didn't believe God.

Yet scripture says he did.

It is the same vanity that caused Adam to hearken to his wife, that stops you from admitting your error in trying to buy what is not for sale.
I've seen your take. Basically it is that Eve was deceived, Adam was not and that he ate simply to be with his wife in consequence. My point was that Satan lied "you will not surely die.' "If" they had thought they would, it doesn't seem reasonable or likely that they would have eaten the fruit. "This will kill you, it is poison." Would you eat it? :nono: Somehow, Satan convinced them they weren't going to die. I don't really care what you think of my prowess, Mind. You go ahead and feel full of yourself.

You are bandying over who was deceived rather than "why Jesus had to die on the cross."

Predi
April 21st, 2016, 06:00 AM
Percentages. If 99 out of 100 have the same answer, I can rest a little easier. If I am the one with a different answer? Some on here are so stinking confident with that, it is beyond reasonable or intelligent to me.

I could find lots of examples when one in a million is right.

I'll give you one. I was born in a country that is close to 100% Roman Catholic.

At the same time, polls show that 60% of citizens disagree which major Catholic doctrines (which kicks them out of Church automatically, they're just oblivious to it).

In my teenage years I didn't know anyone who wasn't Catholic. But I began questioning some doctrines and started asking people questions.

None of them had answers, many of them didn't even try to answer, and some of them got offended that I dare to ask such questions.

At the same time I became stigmatized as the heretic, possessed, weird. After some time I started questioning my sanity.

Well, I survived, and it turned out with lots of things I was the only right among them all.

I hope right now you can understand why I hate statistics :)


Well for one, I think I've given 3 points among a few others, that 1) demand it is logical and 2) has it making very good sense. Are either of us stupid? No, but perhaps one isn't as careful as the next.

Careful... nicely said :) The way I see it most of societies today don't encourage too much thinking. Especially in religion and politics. If you're born Baptist and republican, you'll die this way, just because the thought of rebellion will scare the juice out of you - as it might perhaps mean losing much of your friends and family.

At the same time such "not-thinking" people may win the Nobel prize or invent something that will change the world.

I don't quite understand it, but it seems for most people, no matter how hard they try to be "careful" then won't change some of their thinking patterns.

I'm sure we all have patterns we brought from our environment that we keep without questioning, and it's normal, our brain would die of stress if we questioned every single thing. The important question is - are the patterns you have helping your life or ruining it?


Percentages. If 99 out of 100 have the same answer, I can rest a little easier.

Again, I hope you know now these numbers don't matter to me.

I can talk about arguments, not about how many people believe it.



You are questioning the very act, so 'we' is inclusive as to the need of the death of Jesus Christ. See John 16:7

At this point, I'd warn about giving the one in 99 answer. For what it is worth, it definitely doesn't look right and I tend to do well on these. For what it is worth.

I'm extremely careful with making doctrines just from Gospels, especially if there's not a word about them in Paul's letters, which I believe are the only part of the Bible 100% relevant to us.

Cross Reference
April 21st, 2016, 06:35 AM
I'm extremely careful with making doctrines just from Gospels, especially if there's not a word about them in Paul's letters, which I believe are the only part of the Bible 100% relevant to us.

Ah, now we understand. Thank you.

Another one who relegates Jesus to second class heavenly citizenship.

Clete
April 21st, 2016, 06:50 AM
So if the offender doesn't repent, we are supposed to hold the grudge??? Sorry, I don't see that in the Bible.
Who said anything about a grudge?


Romans 12:19 Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.

Hebrews 10:30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[e] says the Lord.[f] And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”[g] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

It's not about holding a grudge, its about justice!

Do you think it wrong to want justice?


Psalm 37:30 The mouth of the righteous speaks wisdom, And his tongue talks of justice.

Psalm 58:10 The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked,

The saints in Heaven eagerly await God's vengeance...


Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

The point being that it is GOD's place to avenge, it is God who will see justice done. God has delegated authority to the governing official to enact and enforce criminal justice but that isn't the half of what we're talking about here. You asked a question that is absolutely critical to have a coherent answer too and you intimated that it was related to our forgiving others as though there were some discontinuity or contradiction between the two. And if your doctrine about forgiveness is right then, not only does it make sense for the question to come up but there is no answer! Such questions should be allowed to shine light on potential errors that we've made in our doctrine. Why ask the question if you aren't willing to think through the implications of the answer?


Forgive 77 times if he repents - these words were spoken before the Gospel of Grace was revealed. There was no known reason to forgive f

Besides, I would see it as a minimum requirement. Forgive always if he repents - at least that - but why not forgive without waiting?
First of all, it makes no difference what you see, it only matters what's actually there in the bible. The teaching here cannot be any clearer than it is. If you disagree with it, its because of poor teaching that you've received.

The reason you don't forgive without waiting is because it is unjust (i.e. unrighteous - same thing) to do so. Not only that but it helps to destroy the one you are forgiving, at least in this life if not in the next.

Further, in regards to pre vs post grace. Paul didn't teach proactive pre-forgiveness either!


I Corinthians 5:9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. 11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

And finally, it is not our place to forgive in all circumstances, even when the offense is committed against us. Some offenses are more than just sins, they are also crimes. A person who commits a crime against us, even if he repents and is forgive by us, must still face the criminal penalty for his crime for the sake of the society in which he lives. And of course any offense against is likely also to be a sin against God and we have absolutely no authority whatsoever to forgive sins against God, that's purely God's territory.


Are we justified "freely, by His grace" or because we repented?

And how can we have peace if God's forgiveness depends on our repentance? How can we be sure that our repentance is correct??
Well, the word repent has a range of meanings in this context. In so far as our salvation is concerned, repentance refers to our calling upon the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of our sin. The act of belief is the act of repentance.


Romans 10:8 ...“The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

In regards to individual sins, however, the word repent simply means to be sorry or regretful or to change one's mind for the better.

The Hebrew word for repent is...

Nacham (Strong's H5162) (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5162&t=KJV)

and the Greek...

metanoeō (Strong's G3340) (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3340&t=KJV)

There are other words that are translated "repent" but these are the ones pertinent to our discussion.


Incidentally, since I brought up original languages here. In the Hebrew, justice and righteousness are the same word...

tsedeq (Stong's H6664) (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H6664&t=KJV)

tsĕdaqah (Strong's H6666) (https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H6666&t=KJV)


Resting in Him,
Clete

Predi
April 21st, 2016, 06:53 AM
Ah, now we understand. Thank you.

Another one who relegates Jesus to second class heavenly citizenship.

I'd appreciate it if no false information was spread about me. I never claimed anything you said. The Word is God and I never doubted that.

Totton Linnet
April 21st, 2016, 07:04 AM
He GAVE us His life, He poured it out upon us

Cross Reference
April 21st, 2016, 07:11 AM
I'd appreciate it if no false information was spread about me. I never claimed anything you said. The Word is God and I never doubted that.

And I would appreciate it if you did likewise!

genuineoriginal
April 21st, 2016, 07:15 AM
God doesn't really forgive us anything. Somehow, we are always punished for our sins.

Leviticus 5:10
10 And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.
If you don't believe God forgives sin, then you must believe God is a liar.


Jesus' crucifixion did not happen for the forgiveness of our sins
Jesus, God's only begotten Son, died on the cross to shed the blood of the new covenant for the forgiveness of our sins.

Matthew 26:28
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
This is the same new covenant prophesied through Jeremiah.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Cross Reference
April 21st, 2016, 07:33 AM
Try to think that while God does forgive our sins He does deliver us from their consequences.

Predi
April 21st, 2016, 07:36 AM
Who said anything about a grudge?

I simply don't see another option. When someone wrongs me, I have 2 choices, forgive or hold a grudge.



It's not about holding a grudge, its about justice!

Do you think it wrong to want justice?

I think it's wrong not to want justice.

But it's a totally different story demanding right wages for hard workers and wishing a murderer would rot in hell.

I do not want to be held responsible for all bad things I did - and thank God I'm not - why would I want it for others?


The saints in Heaven eagerly await God's vengeance...

I believe they're not waiting anymore.


Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”


Why ask the question if you aren't willing to think through the implications of the answer?

I am willing, why are you saying I'm not?


First of all, it makes no difference what you see, it only matters what's actually there in the bible.

Of course. But I hear that all the time from people having totally opposite ideas. I think a little humility is due here. Bible is a very difficult book.


The teaching here cannot be any clearer than it is. If you disagree with it, its because of poor teaching that you've received.

I believe the teaching is clear on all things, but our thinking is heavily biased by lots of factors. Again, I think we all should be a bit humble here.


Further, in regards to pre vs post grace. Paul didn't teach proactive pre-forgiveness either!

In the passage you quoted I can't see a word about forgiving.

Forgiving is not pretending nothing happened or that there's no consequences.

Corinthians shouldn't be close to people doing certain stuff for some reasons but who said they shouldn't forgive them?

We lock a rapist away for years, but not because we're mad at them and want revenge; we want to make it impassible for them to hurt more people.


A person who commits a crime against us, even if he repents and is forgive by us, must still face the criminal penalty for his crime for the sake of the society in which he lives.


Amen here :)

Predi
April 21st, 2016, 07:38 AM
And I would appreciate it if you did likewise!

Where didn't I?

Cross Reference
April 21st, 2016, 08:04 AM
Where didn't I?

Your post #4387 "Our Triune God". Where's the "rant" that brought on your untoward remarks?

Predi
April 21st, 2016, 08:13 AM
Your post #4387 "Our Triune God". Where's the "rant" that brought on your untoward remarks?

Are you sure you're not confusing me with someone else?

Ben Masada
April 21st, 2016, 08:20 AM
Try to think that while God does forgive our sins He does deliver us from their consequences.

That's not that easy CR. All God's blessings are conditional. Jesus himself said once that at his time when one went to the Temple to plea for the forgiveness of his sins, he was suggested to go to whom he had offended and set things rights with his brother and, only then, return to his prayers at the Temple. According to the law of cause and effect, we must suffer for the consequences thereof. Only universal salvation is free. Personal salvation requires the works due to the obedience of God's Law. BTW, Jesus himself said that, to escape hell-fire, we must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)

Ben Masada
April 21st, 2016, 08:56 AM
[quote]Leviticus 5:10 And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.

I am talking about personal salvation through the Law from the Decalogue and not ritual laws added by Moses as Pichuach Nephesh, the system to make the Exodus easier. HaShem never commanded laws about animal sacrifices. So, ritual laws are not God's Laws but laws of man. Read Jeremiah 7:22 to understand.


If you don't believe God forgives sin, then you must believe God is a liar.

That's not so. You are the one implying that Jesus was a liar for having sent that man who was praying for his salvation in the Temple and was reminded himself that he had offended his brother. So, Jesus told him to go to get forgiveness from he whom he had offended or no forgiveness otherwise. (Mat. 5:23,24)


Jesus, God's only begotten Son, died on the cross to shed the blood of the new covenant for the forgiveness of our sins. Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Not true. That was not the reason for the sheding of his blood but because his disciples were acclaiming him king of the Jews in Jerusalem. (Luke 19:37-40)


This is the same new covenant prophesied through Jeremiah.Jeremiah 31:31-34. Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: 33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

As I can see, you really do not like the Prophets of the Most High. Now, you are going against the Lord Himself because He said to Jeremiah that the New Covenant was made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. There is no mention of Gentiles here. Now, the quote for you to read is Deuteronomy 4:2.

Ben Masada
April 21st, 2016, 09:15 AM
He GAVE us His life, He poured it out upon us

The Lord Almighty instructed His Prophets to teach us that no one can die for the sins of another, but that each one must die for his own sins. (Jeremiah 31:30; Ezekiel 18:20) BTW, the Lord never commanded that any kind of sacrifices of any kind be part of the religion of Israel. (Jeremiah 7:22)

Cross Reference
April 21st, 2016, 09:47 AM
Are you sure you're not confusing me with someone else?
You are most correct. I apologize. How I got you confused with Periac, I'll never know. So sorry.

genuineoriginal
April 21st, 2016, 09:51 AM
HaShem never commanded laws about animal sacrifices. So, ritual laws are not God's Laws but laws of man. Read Jeremiah 7:22 to understand.
יהוה is God and He did command the laws about animal sacrifices.

Leviticus 1:1-4
1 And the Lord (יהוה) called unto Moses, and spake unto him out of the tabernacle of the congregation, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man of you bring an offering unto the Lord, ye shall bring your offering of the cattle, even of the herd, and of the flock.
3 If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his own voluntary will at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the Lord (יהוה).
4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.

Predi
April 21st, 2016, 09:56 AM
You are most correct. I apologize. How I got you confused with Periac, I'll never know. So sorry.

No problem. I was worried for a moment I was mean to someone and I didn't even know about it :)

genuineoriginal
April 21st, 2016, 10:01 AM
If you don't believe God forgives sin, then you must believe God is a liar.

You are the one implying that Jesus was a liar for having sent that man who was praying for his salvation in the Temple and was reminded himself that he had offended his brother. So, Jesus told him to go to get forgiveness from he whom he had offended or no forgiveness otherwise. (Mat. 5:23,24)
You seem to be confusing asking forgiveness from someone you offended by sinning against them with asking forgiveness (through burnt offerings) from God for sinning against Him.


As I can see, you really do not like the Prophets of the Most High. Now, you are going against the Lord Himself because He said to Jeremiah that the New Covenant was made with the House of Israel and the House of Judah. There is no mention of Gentiles here. Now, the quote for you to read is Deuteronomy 4:2.
Of course there is no mention of the Gentiles here.
Jesus was sent during the end of the 70 week prophecy of Daniel 9.
Those 70 weeks (490 years) were set aside for the children of Israel (house of Judah and the house of Israel) to stop messing around and actually repent.
The Gentiles were not brought into the New Covenant until after those 490 years had ended (shortly after Stephen was stoned to death).
Once the 490 years had ended, Peter was sent to Cornelius to witness the first Gentiles that were brought into the New Covenant, which is the mystery Paul wrote about.

Ephesians 3:6
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

heir
April 21st, 2016, 10:23 AM
I used to love this metaphorical story about a court trial... we are the defendant, God is the judge, the devil - prosecutor - and we have no lawyer - so we're hopeless, we lose, get sentenced, and then Jesus comes and takes the punishment for us so we are let go.

Then I realized if this metaphor says how it really is in the story of salvation... God doesn't really forgive us anything. The guilt is still punished and someone has to suffer.

Jesus did forgive some people before crucifixion (for example in Luke 7:48), God did that many times in Old Testament, too (e.g. 2 Samuel 12:13).

My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?
The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23 KJV). Someone had to pay for it (Romans 5:12 KJV) and Christ took the payoff (Romans 4:25 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV)!

Predi
April 21st, 2016, 10:26 AM
The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23 KJV). Someone had to pay for it (Romans 5:12 KJV) and Christ took the payoff (Romans 4:25 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV)!

So if Christ paid the price of death, why do we still die?

heir
April 21st, 2016, 10:30 AM
So if Christ paid the price of death, why do we still die?

The flesh dies. We have eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. He is our life (Galatians 2:20 KJV, Colossians 3:1-4 KJV).

heir
April 21st, 2016, 10:32 AM
My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Why not glory in the fact that your sins are forgiven (Colossians 2:13 KJV)?

chrysostom
April 21st, 2016, 10:39 AM
Why not glory in the fact that your sins are forgiven (Colossians 2:13 KJV)?

only if you have repented

Predi
April 21st, 2016, 10:40 AM
Why not glory in the fact that your sins are forgiven (Colossians 2:13 KJV)?

I do think so. But it seems the Church rejects this.

Predi
April 21st, 2016, 10:42 AM
The flesh dies. We have eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. He is our life (Galatians 2:20 KJV, Colossians 3:1-4 KJV).

Christ also died in flesh. If His death was a payment for our sins, logically, we're not supposed to die in flesh anymore.

heir
April 21st, 2016, 10:43 AM
only if you have repentedStop trying to spoil others through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. When does it say we were forgiven all trespasses? When we were quickened together with Him, that's when!

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Colossians 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are [B]risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

heir
April 21st, 2016, 10:45 AM
Christ also died in flesh. If His death was a payment for our sins, logically, we're not supposed to die in flesh anymore.Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

What is the gospel that is going to get you out of the grave?

Predi
April 21st, 2016, 10:46 AM
only if you have repented

And get baptized. And say the Sinner's Prayer. And go to Church. And pay the tithe. And say grace.

chrysostom
April 21st, 2016, 10:47 AM
I do think so. But it seems the Church rejects this.

who do you trust?

heir
April 21st, 2016, 10:49 AM
And get baptized. And say the Sinner's Prayer. And go to Church. And pay the tithe. And say grace.
LOL

heir
April 21st, 2016, 10:50 AM
who do you trust?What do you care? You trust a building.

chrysostom
April 21st, 2016, 10:51 AM
What do you care? You trust a building.

what do you do with your money?

Predi
April 21st, 2016, 10:52 AM
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

What is the gospel that is going to get you out of the grave?

This doesn't answer my question.

The wages of sin is death.

Jesus died for me.

I still die.

One of these 3 statements must be false. Or the words used in them mean different kind of death.

genuineoriginal
April 21st, 2016, 10:53 AM
Stop trying to spoil others through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
You think the words of Paul and Peter are philosophy and vain deceit?

Acts 17:30
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
You think repentance is not after Christ?

Matthew 9:13
13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Predi
April 21st, 2016, 10:54 AM
who do you trust?

I trust God. The problem is He won't speak to me in audible way. He hasn't yet, at least, I'm still hoping :)

chrysostom
April 21st, 2016, 10:55 AM
I trust God. The problem is He won't speak to me in audible way. He hasn't yet, at least, I'm still hoping :)

we all have that problem
-so
-who do you trust?

heir
April 21st, 2016, 11:01 AM
This doesn't answer my question.

The wages of sin is death.

Jesus died for me.

I still die.

One of these 3 statements must be false. Or the words used in them mean different kind of death.
This earthly house will dissolve, but we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens!

2 Corinthians 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

heir
April 21st, 2016, 11:02 AM
This doesn't answer my question.

The wages of sin is death.

Jesus died for me.

I still die.

One of these 3 statements must be false. Or the words used in them mean different kind of death.

What is the good news that will get you out of the grave?

Predi
April 21st, 2016, 11:05 AM
we all have that problem
-so
-who do you trust?

I answered already.

Predi
April 21st, 2016, 11:06 AM
What is the good news that will get you out of the grave?

I'm forgiven.

heir
April 21st, 2016, 11:08 AM
I trust God. The problem is He won't speak to me in audible way. He hasn't yet, at least, I'm still hoping :)God isn't speaking to anyone audibly. He speaks to us by all scripture.

heir
April 21st, 2016, 11:09 AM
I'm forgiven.So is every one else. There is a gospel by which we are saved. What is it?

Predi
April 21st, 2016, 11:12 AM
God isn't speaking to anyone audibly. He speaks to us by all scripture.

Which resulted in thousands of denominations...

He doesn't speak audibly? Says who? You? Did you find this statement in the Bible?

Predi
April 21st, 2016, 11:13 AM
So is every one else. There is a gospel by which we are saved. What is it?

Paul's gospel.

Jamie Gigliotti
April 21st, 2016, 11:13 AM
Set free from sin?? How 'bout is was only the power sin from which we have been set free?

If you don't agree then please explain what overcoming sin for the Christian is all about?
Still not sure what you were saying fully.
Overcoming sin?
Christ gives us the power to overcome sin, for His namesake, for His love because His plans are for good for us, for life to the full. Life with Him lost in His love, sharing in Him and it and spreading His love and light in the darkness.

Cross Reference
April 21st, 2016, 11:56 AM
Still not sure what you were saying fully.
Overcoming sin?
Christ gives us the power to overcome sin, for His namesake, for His love because His plans are for good for us, for life to the full. Life with Him lost in His love, sharing in Him and it and spreading His love and light in the darkness.

So what are you saying I am not?

Jamie Gigliotti
April 21st, 2016, 12:23 PM
So what are you saying I am not?

Sorry it's seems nothing. I know you are all about victory, and freedom in Christ.

Cross Reference
April 21st, 2016, 12:40 PM
Sorry it's seems nothing. I know you are all about victory, and freedom in Christ.

Amen!

jamie
April 21st, 2016, 12:40 PM
So if Christ paid the price of death, why do we still die?


Jesus paid the price for the second death for those who accept his sacrifice.

It is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment. (Hebrews 9:27.

jamie
April 21st, 2016, 12:46 PM
Christ also died in flesh. If His death was a payment for our sins, logically, we're not supposed to die in flesh anymore.


Christ's sacrifice was for the second death. (Romans 8:10-11)

jamie
April 21st, 2016, 12:49 PM
I trust God. The problem is He won't speak to me in audible way. He hasn't yet, at least, I'm still hoping :)


He wants you to read his Book.

Predi
April 21st, 2016, 01:09 PM
Christ's sacrifice was for the second death. (Romans 8:10-11)

I'm pretty sure you did not find this phrase in the Bible.

Predi
April 21st, 2016, 01:12 PM
He wants you to read his Book.

I did ;)

Scottune
April 21st, 2016, 01:28 PM
Yeah its weird that god who makes the rules and what would satisfy him chose the death of his son to appease him. To cover our sins. A innocent perfect man takes the hot for all sin yet people pay for their sins if they dont accept him as savior and lord. So sin was paid for two times. Jesus did forgiven the crippled man lowered through the roof and he never even asked. Neither did the adulterous woman. He was just dishing out forgiveness all over the place and even his last words were forgive them so I guess he was able to forgive just cause hes god and it seems to be unconnected to his death. Who are we to tell god who he can and cant forgive. This is most likely all wrong thinking cause I can hear all the scriprural rebuttals in mind going off but it is a fair question this guy is asking. Thanks for posting such a honest post cause no one wants to face their deepest questions in fear of being a job.

Predi
April 21st, 2016, 01:41 PM
This is most likely all wrong thinking cause I can hear all the scriprural rebuttals in mind going off

I believe those rebuttals are religious, not scriptural.

Totton Linnet
April 21st, 2016, 01:54 PM
The Lord Almighty instructed His Prophets to teach us that no one can die for the sins of another, but that each one must die for his own sins. (Jeremiah 31:30; Ezekiel 18:20) BTW, the Lord never commanded that any kind of sacrifices of any kind be part of the religion of Israel. (Jeremiah 7:22)

If what you say is true then every man sins/every man dies....there is no hope at all for mankind

jamie
April 21st, 2016, 02:17 PM
I'm pretty sure you did not find this phrase in the Bible.


Not the phrase, the concept. Paul explained that the law is spiritual (Romans 7:14). The penalty for violating a spiritual law is spiritual death. Jesus said not to fear those who who can kill the body but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in ghenna. (Matthew 10:28) Ghenna represents a trash fire where refuse is burned.

Our physical body is simply a tent, a temporary housing. (2 Corinthians 5:1) But there is a second death. (Revelation 20:14)

1Mind1Spirit
April 21st, 2016, 03:07 PM
Jesus paid the price for the second death for those who accept his sacrifice.



Totally bogus, Jesus' sacrifice was accepted by God.

He never did it to appease your wrath, lol.

Cross Reference
April 21st, 2016, 03:35 PM
Totally bogus, Jesus' sacrifice was accepted by God.

He never did it to appease your wrath, lol.

What are you saying here?

jamie
April 21st, 2016, 04:03 PM
Totally bogus, Jesus' sacrifice was accepted by God.

He never did it to appease your wrath, lol.


What does wrath have to do with the second death?

Clete
April 21st, 2016, 04:14 PM
I simply don't see another option. When someone wrongs me, I have 2 choices, forgive or hold a grudge.
Then you have other emotional issues that need dealt with that have nothing to do with forgiveness. Either that you don't understand what forgiveness is. I'd wager you don't actually forgive many of the people you think you forgive because you still expect those people to answer to God. And that's all I'm suggesting. There is no need to "hold a grudge" where the offender lives rent free in your mind 24/7 and where you eventually become embittered and angry. The biblical teaching is that vengeance belongs to God and we aught to look forward to that vengeance. If someone has wronged you, don't let their offense further harm you by becoming bitter. Instead, turn the situation over to God who is the righteous judge of all the Earth and will not permit the scales of justice to ever be unbalanced forever.



I think it's wrong not to want justice.

But it's a totally different story demanding right wages for hard workers and wishing a murderer would rot in hell.
Rot in Hell OR become saved! Somehow the scales of justice will be brought to balance! The murder will pay his due if he does not allow Christ to pay it for him and it is not just of you to let him off the hook. It does not help you and it may help prevent him from becoming saved.


I do not want to be held responsible for all bad things I did - and thank God I'm not - why would I want it for others?
Well someone's going to be! If not you then Christ and that's justice! That's why it had to be God who died. Just another man could have died in your place, if he were innocent, but then the whole rest of the world would be lost and even an innocent man has no power to take up his own life again after having laid it down for your sake. The death of the Divine was all that could suffice to both pay the sin debt owed by the whole world and to defeat death in resurrection.

And you aught to want it for others for the reason Paul describes in I Corinthians...


I Corinthians 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named[a] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

On what planet does that sound similar to the doctrine of forgiveness you currently believe?


I believe they're not waiting anymore.


Revelation 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”
That is irrelevant, incorrect but irrelevant. The point is that saints in Heaven, in the presence of God Himself, want to see vengeance! They aren't all, "forgive and forget", "judge not", etc. like nearly every mindless Christian pastor in the country.


I am willing, why are you saying I'm not?
Because you seemed to have accepted my answer to your question but wanted to squirm on the logical implications of it.

You want to be nicer than God is! God doesn't tell us (in either the New or the Old Testament) to forgive people who don't show any evidence of being sorry for what they did and yet you (not really you but whomever it is that taught you this mumbo-jumbo) that we're supposed to just offer anyone and everyone blanket forgiveness whether they're repentant or not.


Of course. But I hear that all the time from people having totally opposite ideas. I think a little humility is due here. Bible is a very difficult book.
No it isn't! I mean, sure, certain issues are more complex than others but this is not one of the difficult ones. You can't find anything in the bible that teaches that we aught to offer forgiveness sans repentance. And the fact that you believe otherwise is precisely what brought your mind to detect an incongruity with the way God deals with offenses vs the way you believe that God wants us to deal with them. And there in fact would be a genuine incongruity if you were right about this blanket forgiveness idea, but you're not. The only place an incongruity actually exists is in your doctrine. The question is whether you are willing to alter it.


I believe the teaching is clear on all things, but our thinking is heavily biased by lots of factors. Again, I think we all should be a bit humble here.
This comment is self-contradictory. Either that or you are suggesting that there is some sort of fundamental lack of ability on our part to understand God's "clear teaching". If that's the case, why bother asking the question? I mean, if you don't believe yourself capable of understanding the answer, why ask the question? In fact, if your mind isn't clear enough to understand the answer, how was it ever clear enough to have formulated to question in the first place?


In the passage you quoted I can't see a word about forgiving.
Look, you have to make a better effort to stay on the same page here with me. I'm not saying anything complicated or confusing. You attempted to negate the words of Jesus Christ regarding forgiving people because it was "pre-grace" and so I quoted you passages that were undeniably "post-grace" that demonstrate that your idea of forgiving everyone whether they repent or not just isn't in the mind of anyone anywhere in the bible - period. You didn't see forgiveness in those passages because it wasn't there! Paul didn't teach to forgive people who are sexually immoral, he said to excommunicate them!


Forgiving is not pretending nothing happened or that there's no consequences.
You see, just as I stated at the first of this post. Your understanding of forgiveness is skewed. What you think is forgiveness is not forgiveness because forgiveness is precisely that there is no consequence. If you forgive someone you act toward them as though they had not done you harm. Otherwise, its not forgiveness because there's still an issue between you.

I do agree that its not pretending though. Forgiveness is quite a real thing. When we are forgiven, the consequences of our sin is placed on Christ and thus any further consequence for the SIN would be unjust. The crime is another matter. Crimes are sins to be sure and while the spiritual consequences of the crime (i.e. the sin) was dealt with by Christ, the crime of it remains to be dealt with for the sake of a civilized society. The world has not yet been redeemed and so we must still live in this fallen world with evil people in it. If Christ's death was used as a trump card for every criminal to use to escape punishment by the governing official, then the world would quickly descend into utter chaos as in the days of Noah. This is, in part, what Paul was alluding to when he remarked that the governing official does not bear the sword in vain (Romans 13:4).


Corinthians shouldn't be close to people doing certain stuff for some reasons but who said they shouldn't forgive them?
We should forgive them if/when they repent, not before. If they do not repent the sexually immoral believer should be excommunicated as both Jesus and Paul explicitly taught.


Matthew 18:15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.


I Corinthians 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named[a] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


We lock a rapist away for years, but not because we're mad at them and want revenge; we want to make it impassible for them to hurt more people.
Locking rapists away for years is unjust. It is the most expensive and least effective means of dealing with criminals. The bible tells us what we aught to do with rapists, we (i.e. this nation) just chooses to ignore God's word.


Amen here :):up:

Resting in Him,
Clete

Jamie Gigliotti
April 21st, 2016, 04:45 PM
Then you have other emotional issues that need dealt with that have nothing to do with forgiveness. Either that you don't understand what forgiveness is. I'd wager you don't actually forgive many of the people you think you forgive because you still expect those people to answer to God. And that's all I'm suggesting. There is no need to "hold a grudge" where the offender lives rent free in your mind 24/7 and where you eventually become embittered and angry. The biblical teaching is that vengeance belongs to God and we aught to look forward to that vengeance. If someone has wronged you, don't let their offense further harm you by becoming bitter. Instead, turn the situation over to God who is the righteous judge of all the Earth and will not permit the scales of justice to ever be unbalanced forever.



Rot in Hell OR become saved! Somehow the scales of justice will be brought to balance! The murder will pay his due if he does not allow Christ to pay it for him and it is not just of you to let him off the hook. It does not help you and it may help prevent him from becoming saved.


Well someone's going to be! If not you then Christ and that's justice! That's why it had to be God who died. Just another man could have died in your place, if he were innocent, but then the whole rest of the world would be lost and even an innocent man has no power to take up his own life again after having laid it down for your sake. The death of the Divine was all that could suffice to both pay the sin debt owed by the whole world and to defeat death in resurrection.

And you aught to want it for others for the reason Paul describes in I Corinthians...


I Corinthians 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named[a] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

On what planet does that sound similar to the doctrine of forgiveness you currently believe?


That is irrelevant, incorrect but irrelevant. The point is that saints in Heaven, in the presence of God Himself, want to see vengeance! They aren't all, "forgive and forget", "judge not", etc. like nearly every mindless Christian pastor in the country.


Because you seemed to have accepted my answer to your question but wanted to squirm on the logical implications of it.

You want to be nicer than God is! God doesn't tell us (in either the New or the Old Testament) to forgive people who don't show any evidence of being sorry for what they did and yet you (not really you but whomever it is that taught you this mumbo-jumbo) that we're supposed to just offer anyone and everyone blanket forgiveness whether they're repentant or not.


No it isn't! I mean, sure, certain issues are more complex than others but this is not one of the difficult ones. You can't find anything in the bible that teaches that we aught to offer forgiveness sans repentance. And the fact that you believe otherwise is precisely what brought your mind to detect an incongruity with the way God deals with offenses vs the way you believe that God wants us to deal with them. And there in fact would be a genuine incongruity if you were right about this blanket forgiveness idea, but you're not. The only place an incongruity actually exists is in your doctrine. The question is whether you are willing to alter it.


This comment is self-contradictory. Either that or you are suggesting that there is some sort of fundamental lack of ability on our part to understand God's "clear teaching". If that's the case, why bother asking the question? I mean, if you don't believe yourself capable of understanding the answer, why ask the question? In fact, if your mind isn't clear enough to understand the answer, how was it ever clear enough to have formulated to question in the first place?


Look, you have to make a better effort to stay on the same page here with me. I'm not saying anything complicated or confusing. You attempted to negate the words of Jesus Christ regarding forgiving people because it was "pre-grace" and so I quoted you passages that were undeniably "post-grace" that demonstrate that your idea of forgiving everyone whether they repent or not just isn't in the mind of anyone anywhere in the bible - period. You didn't see forgiveness in those passages because it wasn't there! Paul didn't teach to forgive people who are sexually immoral, he said to excommunicate them!


You see, just as I stated at the first of this post. Your understanding of forgiveness is skewed. What you think is forgiveness is not forgiveness because forgiveness is precisely that there is no consequence. If you forgive someone you act toward them as though they had not done you harm. Otherwise, its not forgiveness because there's still an issue between you.

I do agree that its not pretending though. Forgiveness is quite a real thing. When we are forgiven, the consequences of our sin is placed on Christ and thus any further consequence for the SIN would be unjust. The crime is another matter. Crimes are sins to be sure and while the spiritual consequences of the crime (i.e. the sin) was dealt with by Christ, the crime of it remains to be dealt with for the sake of a civilized society. The world has not yet been redeemed and so we must still live in this fallen world with evil people in it. If Christ's death was used as a trump card for every criminal to use to escape punishment by the governing official, then the world would quickly descend into utter chaos as in the days of Noah. This is, in part, what Paul was alluding to when he remarked that the governing official does not bear the sword in vain (Romans 13:4).


We should forgive them if/when they repent, not before. If they do not repent the sexually immoral believer should be excommunicated as both Jesus and Paul explicitly taught.


Matthew 18:15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’ 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.


I Corinthians 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named[a] among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


Locking rapists away for years is unjust. It is the most expensive and least effective means of dealing with criminals. The bible tells us what we aught to do with rapists, we (i.e. this nation) just chooses to ignore God's word.

:up:

Resting in Him,
Clete

This post is way too long

Jamie Gigliotti
April 21st, 2016, 04:47 PM
Forgiveness frees the offended. Reconciliation comes with repentance.

Lon
April 21st, 2016, 05:53 PM
I could find lots of examples when one in a million is right.Lots?


I'll give you one. I was born in a country that is close to 100% Roman Catholic.

At the same time, polls show that 60% of citizens disagree which major Catholic doctrines (which kicks them out of Church automatically, they're just oblivious to it).

In my teenage years I didn't know anyone who wasn't Catholic. But I began questioning some doctrines and started asking people questions.

None of them had answers, many of them didn't even try to answer, and some of them got offended that I dare to ask such questions.

At the same time I became stigmatized as the heretic, possessed, weird. After some time I started questioning my sanity.
Sorry, mate. Half of my family is Catholic on my mother's side, so I understand this to a degree. I'm not sure it is one in a million by example though.


Well, I survived, and it turned out with lots of things I was the only right among them all.

I hope right now you can understand why I hate statistics :)
Makes some sense.




Careful... nicely said :) The way I see it most of societies today don't encourage too much thinking. Especially in religion and politics. If you're born Baptist and republican, you'll die this way, just because the thought of rebellion will scare the juice out of you - as it might perhaps mean losing much of your friends and family.

At the same time such "not-thinking" people may win the Nobel prize or invent something that will change the world.

I don't quite understand it, but it seems for most people, no matter how hard they try to be "careful" then won't change some of their thinking patterns.

I'm sure we all have patterns we brought from our environment that we keep without questioning, and it's normal, our brain would die of stress if we questioned every single thing. The important question is - are the patterns you have helping your life or ruining it?



Again, I hope you know now these numbers don't matter to me.

I can talk about arguments, not about how many people believe it.




I'm extremely careful with making doctrines just from Gospels, especially if there's not a word about them in Paul's letters, which I believe are the only part of the Bible 100% relevant to us.

Mid Acts Dispensational?

heir
April 21st, 2016, 08:10 PM
Paul's gospel.Good answer! So there was a moment when you trusted the Lord for salvation after hearing and believing it?

heir
April 21st, 2016, 08:14 PM
Which resulted in thousands of denominations...

He doesn't speak audibly? Says who? You? Did you find this statement in the Bible?Where does it say He does?

jamie
April 21st, 2016, 10:30 PM
Where does it say He does?



Then he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” (Acts 9:4)

heir
April 21st, 2016, 10:36 PM
Then he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” (Acts 9:4)He appeared last to Paul (1 Corinthians 15:8 KJV, 2 Corinthians 12:1-6 KJV). He's not speaking audibly to you or me. If you're hearing voices, they are seducing spirits (1 Timothy 4:1 KJV).

heir
April 21st, 2016, 10:41 PM
what do you do with your money?That's irrelevant. Money has nothing to do with the gospel of our salvation.

Ben Masada
April 21st, 2016, 10:47 PM
Then he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” (Acts 9:4)

Epilepsy Jamie, it was epilepsy. Paul suffered from epilepsy. You can read about it in the Encyclopedia Catholic under the subtitle "New Testament." That's why Paul fell from his horse. That's why epilepsy is also called the "fall disease." That's the main characteristic of this disease: To fall. Paul never saw Jesus and, even if Jesus had appeared to him, Jesus would not contradict himself by choosing Paul to bear his name before the Gentiles. (Acts 11:15) He had already forbade his apostles to take his word to the Gentiles. (Mat. 10:5,6)

Ben Masada
April 21st, 2016, 10:54 PM
Forgiveness frees the offended. Reconciliation comes with repentance.

Agree with you Gigliotti. That's the meaning of Isaiah 1:18,19. That's the only way to set things
right with the Lord so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow. No one else can do
that for you. (Jer. 31:30; Ezek. 18:20)

heir
April 21st, 2016, 11:14 PM
Agree with you Gigliotti. That's the meaning of Isaiah 1:18,19. That's the only way to set things
right with the Lord so that our sins from scarlet red become as white as snow. No one else can do
that for you. (Jer. 31:30; Ezek. 18:20)The only way is to trust the Lord believing 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV! And He did do it for us, you liar!

Romans 4:25 KJV, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV

heir
April 21st, 2016, 11:25 PM
Epilepsy Jamie, it was epilepsy. Paul suffered from epilepsy. You can read about it in the Encyclopedia Catholic under the subtitle "New Testament." That's why Paul fell from his horse. That's why epilepsy is also called the "fall disease." That's the main characteristic of this disease: To fall.It never ceases to amaze me what lies you come up with! They all must have had the same disease then :rotfl:

Acts 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Paul never saw Jesus and,more lies from you. The scripture saith otherwise:

Acts 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.

Acts 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;

...

1 Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
...

2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
...

Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.


even if Jesus had appeared to him, Jesus would not contradict himself by choosing Paul to bear his name before the Gentiles. (Acts 11:15) He had already forbade his apostles to take his word to the Gentiles. (Mat. 10:5,6)Paul was not of the 12! Nor was his commission theirs!

1 Timothy 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Predi
April 22nd, 2016, 05:41 AM
Mid Acts Dispensational?

Pretty close.

Predi
April 22nd, 2016, 05:45 AM
Good answer! So there was a moment when you trusted the Lord for salvation after hearing and believing it?

There were many moments. I was actually never sure if I did that right. Then, after many years, I learned that the salvation Paul wrote about had nothing to do with our eternal destination.

chrysostom
April 22nd, 2016, 05:59 AM
. Then, after many years, I learned that the salvation Paul wrote about had nothing to do with our eternal destination.
care to explain that?

heir
April 22nd, 2016, 06:53 AM
There were many moments. I was actually never sure if I did that right. Then, after many years, I learned that the salvation Paul wrote about had nothing to do with our eternal destination.
Of course our inheritance is part of it! Galatians 1:2-5 KJV, Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV

Grosnick Marowbe
April 22nd, 2016, 07:02 AM
He appeared last to Paul (1 Corinthians 15:8 KJV, 2 Corinthians 12:1-6 KJV). He's not speaking audibly to you or me. If you're hearing voices, they are seducing spirits (1 Timothy 4:1 KJV).

Amen.

Cross Reference
April 22nd, 2016, 07:09 AM
Forgiveness frees the offended. Reconciliation comes with repentance.

How so?

Cross Reference
April 22nd, 2016, 07:10 AM
I'm pretty sure you did not find this phrase in the Bible.

However, the understanding lies within its pages.

chrysostom
April 22nd, 2016, 07:18 AM
Then, after many years, I learned that the salvation Paul wrote about had nothing to do with our eternal destination.

can you explain this?

Predi
April 22nd, 2016, 07:49 AM
Then you have other emotional issues that need dealt with that have nothing to do with forgiveness.

Too bad I don't go to any therapist... I could quit now as it's free here :)


I'd wager you don't actually forgive many of the people you think you forgive because you still expect those people to answer to God. And that's all I'm suggesting. There is no need to "hold a grudge" where the offender lives rent free in your mind 24/7 and where you eventually become embittered and angry.

I'm not sure where you're taking these ideas from. Biblical forgiveness is absolute, total, without yelling, "God will get you for that.". It's Acts 7:60... I love the passage where the angel touches Isaiah with a coal and says your sin is forgiven... that much it took... and it was during the Mosaic covenant...


The biblical teaching is that vengeance belongs to God and we aught to look forward to that vengeance.

Please check the actual meaning of the terms used in the Bible for 'vengeance.' Justice doesn't necessarily mean to punish the wicked ones.



I do not want to be held responsible for all bad things I did - and thank God I'm not - why would I want it for others?
Well someone's going to be!

I don't think so. I think real forgiveness wipes the slate clean.


If someone has wronged you, don't let their offense further harm you by becoming bitter.

When someone wrongs me, I quote Ephesians 4:32 in my head.

I don't expect my bad deeds to be punished by God and I want the same for others.


And you aught to want it for others for the reason Paul describes in I Corinthians...
(cut)
that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I encourage you to spend some time and research what the reason is that most of translations have the words "his" added in 1 Corinthians 5:5 even though that word is not in Greek.

Also, can you answer the question, how is the "salvation of spirit" different than "salvation of soul?"


You want to be nicer than God is!

If God is love, I believe He will not smack me for that very hard :)


Of course. But I hear that all the time from people having totally opposite ideas. I think a little humility is due here. Bible is a very difficult book.

No it isn't! I

I rest my case...

Most of us would find it impossible to fully understand something in English written a few hundred years ago and you claim something written in long dead languages, thousands of years ago, is not difficult?

And on top of all problems with language, there's a huge lobby of monster sized denominations, which get billions of dollars by forcing their interpretation of Bible verses sink deeply into people's minds, and they are so omnipresent that hardly anyone knows today what the Bible originally meant... and just you say... no it isn't.

I'm not saying I'm better than you and my truth is better than yours. I'm trying to be open to hew horizons and I want to be open to learning from you... I just believe you either trusted your priest/pastor too much or that you think you know way more than you actually do. Humility is a virtue really encouraged in the Bible, isn't it? :)

I was in quite a few Christian denominations, including the largest ones of the world, and in the beginning I was always happy that I finally found what I was looking for. But after the initial emotional WOW passed, I realized I still could not find full peace. And some verses of the Bible never made sense, whether I was in a traditional or protestant Church. There were just different verses here and there...

I couldn't find peace not only within myself, but I didn't see it in other members of the churches... and pastors... how come they say God is peace and they know Him intimately and they yell at their kids and wives for no reason?

How come they say they have absolute peace but start shaking when someone has different beliefs? Or... when someone takes the parking spot you hoped for?

In all denominations there were people who seemed to have peace ... perhaps 1 in a 100... and I started wondering - why doesn't anyone speak about this hypocrisy? Peace on lips only?

After some time, usually years, I was finding out there's so much bologna there... I realized that religion makes money only when they lie.

Let's assume, hypothetically, that you're a pastor of a 10K people church and you learn from the Bible one day there's no punishment of any kind from God, ever. You become a full universalist. Would you tell that to your congregation, where you get your 7 figure salary from?

Half the people would leave you because you'd be a heretic in their eyes, the other half would leave because God will forgive them anyway even if they do picnics on Sunday rather than church.

Truth seldom makes you rich.

Ask yourself if the theology you believe now gives you full peace, and can everyone you hang out with can confirm it.

chrysostom
April 22nd, 2016, 07:57 AM
Ask yourself if the theology you believe now gives you full peace, and can everyone you hang out with can confirm it.

my theology tells me full peace is not possible in this life
-it also tells me we sin everyday
-we must ask for help
-we must keep trying
-we must overcometh

Predi
April 22nd, 2016, 08:01 AM
can you explain this?

Sorry, I used a mental shortcut.

Today Christians usually see people as "saved" or "unsaved", the first group ending in heaven, second - in hell.

I don't believe such a thought ever crossed Paul's mind. I never see him worried about anyone "not saved" and never see him rushing people to preach before someone dies.

Predi
April 22nd, 2016, 08:02 AM
my theology tells me full peace is not possible in this life
-it also tells me we sin everyday
-we must ask for help
-we must keep trying
-we must overcometh

My theology hopes Philippians 4:7 is real :)


And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

Predi
April 22nd, 2016, 08:41 AM
He appeared last to Paul (1 Corinthians 15:8 KJV, 2 Corinthians 12:1-6 KJV). He's not speaking audibly to you or me. If you're hearing voices, they are seducing spirits (1 Timothy 4:1 KJV).

Do you believe the word "last" in 1 Corinthians 15:8 means that was the last direct revelation of God received during this dispensation?

Jamie Gigliotti
April 22nd, 2016, 10:11 AM
How so?

Being bitter/unforgiving is a dark Spiritual state of being, it has a power over those enslaved by it. It permeates all that you do, all that you say, all that you think. Forgiveness frees the heart and soul to have pity on the offender. It is not accomplished outside of Christ and His Spirit moving us. It is a product of trusting Christ personally, trusting Christ to judge. Accepting Christ's love and mercy on us and being filled it. It is a matter of the heart and soul. It is laying down our right to revenge in exchange for mercy and union with Christ.
It can move the Offender to repent as it is seen as coming from God because it is not natural.
Reconciliation and trust being rebuilt only comes with contriteness and an offender seeking forgiveness.
Ephesians 3:32

Jamie Gigliotti
April 22nd, 2016, 10:29 AM
Sorry, I used a mental shortcut.

Today Christians usually see people as "saved" or "unsaved", the first group ending in heaven, second - in hell.

I don't believe such a thought ever crossed Paul's mind. I never see him worried about anyone "not saved" and never see him rushing people to preach before someone dies.

Who will judge who is saved?

Cross Reference
April 22nd, 2016, 10:35 AM
Sorry, I used a mental shortcut.

Today Christians usually see people as "saved" or "unsaved", the first group ending in heaven, second - in hell.

I don't believe such a thought ever crossed Paul's mind. I never see him worried about anyone "not saved" and never see him rushing people to preach before someone dies.That is because he was always addressing born again, Spirit filled, Pentecostal Christians. In his thinking, there were no other to be called Christians if not of that disposition.

Cross Reference
April 22nd, 2016, 10:40 AM
Being bitter/unforgiving is a dark Spiritual state of being, it has a power over those enslaved by it. It permeates all that you do, all that you say, all that you think. Forgiveness frees the heart and soul to have pity on the offender. It is not accomplished outside of Christ and His Spirit moving us. It is a product of trusting Christ personally, trusting Christ to judge. Accepting Christ's love and mercy on us and being filled it. It is a matter of the heart and soul. It is laying down our right to revenge in exchange for mercy and union with Christ.
It can move the Offender to repent as it is seen as coming from God because it is not natural.
Reconciliation and trust being rebuilt only comes with contriteness and an offender seeking forgiveness.
Ephesians 3:32

So, in the end after all is said and done, there really can't be a difference can there?

WonderfulLordJesus
April 22nd, 2016, 11:06 AM
God really does forgive. He is like we might imagine a lion ready to pounce on "forgiveness." He is that eager to forgive. He knows we are not responsible for Adam's original sin of disobedience. We are all affected because of DNA....Adam couldn't make perfect, sinless children.

There has been something in the way of forgiveness, however, and it is because Jehovah is supremely JUST, and follows His own rules. One rule is: "An eye for an eye, tooth for tooth." There has to be a balancing out of an event or situation....a equal situation on the other side of the scales. We have Adam, formerly a perfect human, on one side of the scales, with the bed of the scales all the way down. There had to be a counter-balancing action on the other side, something that matched Adam's mankind-affecting action. Therefore, another perfect human had to balance it out, staying obedient, to counteract Adam's disobedience. Paul explained it this way:

"For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, the many will be made righteous." (Romans 5:19, NASB)

Then it simply remains for each of us to accept what Jesus did, and conform to his teachings.

John 3:16; I Peter 2:21

God's supreme justice is certainly instrumental. At the heart of the matter is God's holiness, inherent of perfect holiness and righteousness an intolerance of sin. To be alright with sin is to tolerate evil, would be evil. God cannot be of absolute holiness and tolerant of corruption, at the same time.

Why He chose the atonement of the Lord Jesus as His program is shrouded in a mystery nobody can completely know this side of heaven, beyond the indication only He could pay for sin we cannot, as sinful beings. In other words, a tainted being has no standing to grant perfect righteousness to anybody, including first of all themselves, a perfect, unblemished sacrifice required, this we know from the Old Testament. To me, this does beg the question why the Lord Jesus could not have done His teaching, offered one animal sacrifice for all, and returned to heaven: God is sovereign and can do whatever He wills. He can make clean who He wishes to make clean. God doesn't have to answer for how He does anything.

This leads to mysterious matters in heaven we can't ignore, discount, the rebellion of Satan and those who followed him, which I believe Jesus' work instrumental to his final defeat, to the glory of God, since Satan is also an accuser of God. For example, Satan could well have said that it's easy for God to be critical, since He's never had to suffer like His creatures on earth. I believe the work of the Lord Jesus also shuts the devil's mouth, for all time, but no real way of knowing things not revealed in scripture God has ordained we have no business knowing. God is infinite, could never be confined to a finite number of pages in any book. We only have what we need of the Lord Jesus, John 21:25.

heir
April 22nd, 2016, 11:58 AM
Sorry, I used a mental shortcut.

Today Christians usually see people as "saved" or "unsaved", the first group ending in heaven, second - in hell.saved and lost. We're one or the other.


I don't believe such a thought ever crossed Paul's mind. I never see him worried about anyone "not saved" and never see him rushing people to preach before someone dies.There's no point in Paul's preaching the gospel 'cept to stablish one in the faith Romans 1:11-16 KJV, 1 Corinthians 1:21 KJV

heir
April 22nd, 2016, 12:24 PM
When someone wrongs me, I quote Ephesians 4:32 in my head.:up: That's the pattern for forgiving one another. Why people who are supposed to understand 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV keep running to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John for their pattern is usually because of what their favorite teachers have wrongly taught them.

Predi
April 22nd, 2016, 12:29 PM
saved and lost. We're one or the other.

There's no point in Paul's preaching the gospel 'cept to stablish one in the faith Romans 1:11-16 KJV, 1 Corinthians 1:21 KJV

And I thought he had a mystery to reveal that no one else heard about...


How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words (Ephesians 3:3)

heir
April 22nd, 2016, 12:32 PM
And I thought he had a mystery to reveal that no one else heard about...Sure he did! You were arguing that Paul didn't preach that man can be saved and that's not true at all. That's why I said what I did. You want to talk mystery? Let's go!

Predi
April 22nd, 2016, 12:37 PM
That is because he was always addressing born again, Spirit filled, Pentecostal Christians. In his thinking, there were no other to be called Christians if not of that disposition.

What about these Christians' families and friends?

Predi
April 22nd, 2016, 12:38 PM
You were arguing that Paul didn't preach that man can be saved and that's not true at all.

Another time am I getting confused with someone else here? I never said that :)

heir
April 22nd, 2016, 12:41 PM
Another time am I getting confused with someone else here? I never said that :)

You said Paul was not worried about other's salvation. Why did he want to see the Romans so bad?

Ask Mr. Religion
April 22nd, 2016, 02:41 PM
My question is - why can't God just... forgive me all of my sins? Without the sacrifice of Jesus? Just because God is good and forgiving? We aren't taught in the Bible to forgive with any substitute sacrifice, right? What is the problem then?

1. God exists. (Gen. 1:1)
2. God is infinite. (Psalm 90:2, 147:5; Jer. 23:24)
3. God is holy. (Isaiah 6:3; Rev. 4:8)
4. God is righteous. (Neh. 9:32-33; 1 Thess. 1:6)
5. Therefore, God is infinitely holy and just.

6. Furthermore, God speaks out of the character of who He is. (Matt. 12:34)

7. God spoke the Law. (Ex. 20:1-17)

8. Therefore, the Law is in the heart of God and is a reflection of God's character since it is Holy and Good. (Rom. 7:12)

9. Furthermore, to break the Law of God is to offend Him since it is His Law that we break. This sin results in an infinite offense because God is infinite and His wrath against sin is infinite, thus, the payment made by the reprobate must be unending.

10. Furthermore, it is also right that God punish the Law breaker. To not punish the Law breaker (sinner) is to allow an offense against His holiness to be ignored. (Amos 2:4; Rom. 4:15; Ex. 23:7; Ex. 34:7; Ps. 5:4-6; Rom. 2:5-6)

11. God says that the person who sins must die (be punished). The wages of sin is death. (Eze. 18:4; Rom. 6:23)

12. The sinner needs to escape the righteous judgment of God or he will face damnation. (Rom. 1:18; Matt. 25:46)

13. But, no sinner can undo an infinite offense since to please God and make things right, he must obey the Law, which is the standard of God's righteous character. (Gal. 2:16, 2:21)

14. But the sinner cannot fulfill the law because he is sinful (in the flesh). (Rom. 8:3)

15. Since the sinner cannot fulfill the law and satisfy God, it follows that only God can do this.

16. Jesus is God in flesh. (John 1:1, 1:14; Col. 2:9)

18. The substitute could not be an animal. (Heb. 10:4)

19. Neither could an angel be the substitute, for the substitute must take upon himself human nature. (Heb. 2:14)

20. No sinner could atone for his fellow sinners. (Psa. 49:7–8).

21. It was only God Himself who could be the exact, perfect and proper substitute to atone for the sins of His people, and completely satisfy the vindication of His justice and righteousness, and thus render man acceptable in His sight.

22. Jesus was also a man under the Law. (1 Tim. 2:5; Gal. 4:5-6)

23. Since then the children share in flesh and blood, Jesus, Himself, likewise partook of the same, that through death he might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil.

24. Therefore, he had to be made like his brethren in all things, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. (Heb. 2:14–17)

25. Jesus Christ alone could be the fitting or proper high priest. (Heb. 7:26)

26. The sinlessness of the substitute is necessary. (2 Cor. 5:21)

27. Therefore, Jesus became sin for us and bore our sins unto death in His body on the cross, which revealed the specific penalty required for sin, thus fulfilling the Law. (2 Cor. 5:21; 1 Peter 2:24; Rom. 3:24–26; Rom. 8:3-4)

28. The gift is valued according to the altar on which it is presented. Christ offered Himself through the eternal Spirit (Heb. 9:14), that is to say, He offered His human nature on the altar of His divine nature. His divine nature being eternal, His offering possesses an eternal quality. Hence, although Christ did not sacrifice Himself eternally, He nevertheless offered an eternal sacrifice to satisfy divine justice.

29. Therefore, salvation is by grace through faith since it was not by our keeping the Law, but by Jesus, God in flesh, who fulfilled the Law and died in our place. (Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:13; Eph. 5:2)

30. Finally, it follows from the above that a person’s duty is to believe, claiming Christ’s atoning sacrifice as their own in order to be declared righteous before God. Such a true believer will be known from their works.

AMR

freelight
April 22nd, 2016, 03:08 PM
Let's assume, hypothetically, that you're a pastor of a 10K people church and you learn from the Bible one day there's no punishment of any kind from God, ever. You become a full universalist. Would you tell that to your congregation, where you get your 7 figure salary from?

Half the people would leave you because you'd be a heretic in their eyes, the other half would leave because God will forgive them anyway even if they do picnics on Sunday rather than church.

Truth seldom makes you rich.

Ask yourself if the theology you believe now gives you full peace, and can everyone you hang out with can confirm it.

I think some are starting to lean towards some kind of Universalism in some places. Also, even more so....some are moving more towards a 'conditional immortality' view, rather than 'eternal conscious torment' (ECT (http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?1581-ECT)) in hell.

A more important question back to the thread-title question, is "what is required to receive forgiveness from God?". It appears the 'crucifixion' is only a historical/conceptual reference point of Jesus making some kind of atonement or reconciliation upon that 'cross', and a whole theology of 'redemption' based on the cross, mostly from Paul's letters, or those ascribed to him. The cross is therefore only a 'symbol' upon which certain meanings are placed, depending on what is attached to it, and HOW that's interpreted.

Clete
April 22nd, 2016, 03:39 PM
Predi,

Why bother asking questions if you aren't going to think through the answers given to you?

Since you are effectively ignoring my answer, answer your own question...

Why did Jesus have to die? Why couldn't/didn't God just forgive everyone and be done with it?


Resting in Him,
Clete

Samie
April 22nd, 2016, 03:52 PM
To answer the question reflected in the title of this thread, I think Scriptures point to the direction that Jesus had to die so all sins could be forgiven.

1. When Adam sinned, an animal died that same day (Gen 3:21). And Christ is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8).

2. In the old covenant, sin is forgiven, after the priest has made atonement for the sinner (Lev 4:20, 26, 31, 35; 5:10, 13, 16, 18; 6:7; 19:22; Num 15:25, 28). And it was on the cross where atonement / reconciliation was made (Rom 5:10; 2 Cor 5:18, 19. In the NT, reconciliation and atonement are both from the Greek καταλλαγῆ).

3. Christ said His blood is shed for forgiveness of sins (Matt 26:28).

4. Paul said redemption is through the blood of Christ, and redemption is forgiveness (Eph 1:7; Col 1:14).

5. In Hebrews, without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness, and it was Christ's blood that was shed. Heb 9:22, 26.

6. In Revelation, Jesus' blood washed us clean from sin. Rev 1:5

7. And to top it all, in the New Covenant, with all sins forgiven on the cross, God remembers our sins NO MORE. Col 2:13; Heb 10:16, 17

But we still sin. The sin committed now, having been forgiven on the cross, is NOT imputed / counted against us (2 Cor 5:18, 19). This is God's act through Christ of continually justifying us because Jesus was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25).

But the act of sinning reminds the person, having been admonished to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21), that he has not overcome the evil of sinning yet. He has to overcome as Jesus Himself has overcome. And overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life.KJV Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

KJV Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

chrysostom
April 22nd, 2016, 03:57 PM
4. Paul said redemption is through the blood of Christ, and redemption is forgiveness (Eph 1:7; Col 1:14).
you are not reading it properly
-forgiveness is due to His grace

Samie
April 22nd, 2016, 04:01 PM
But the act of sinning reminds the person, having been admonished to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21), that he has not overcome the evil of sinning yet. He has to overcome as Jesus Himself has overcome. And overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life.KJV Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

KJV Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.And only those whose names are found written in the book of life will be allowed into the heavenly portals.KJV Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
On the other hand, all those not found written in the book of life their destination is the lake of fire.KJV Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Samie
April 22nd, 2016, 04:05 PM
you are not reading it properly
-forgiveness is due to His graceDid I not?KJV Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

KJV Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sinsLooks more like I did. Read again.

genuineoriginal
April 22nd, 2016, 04:09 PM
Christ is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8).[/BOX]
Not quite.
The verse is not stating that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

By comparing these three verses, we can see that it is the book of life that is from the foundation of the world and that the book of life is now the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 21:27
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Samie
April 22nd, 2016, 05:46 PM
Rev 13:8 speaks of the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:8 tells us that the writing of names in the book of life is from the foundation of the world.

Rev 21:27 clarifies that the book of life belongs to the Lamb.

You must learn to read what is written, GO.

Clete
April 22nd, 2016, 06:22 PM
Not quite.
The verse is not stating that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

By comparing these three verses, we can see that it is the book of life that is from the foundation of the world and that the book of life is now the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 21:27
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

Excellent!

Why can't more people see this?! It's so clear but people refuse to see. It seems the truth is often hidden in plain sight.

Great post!

Samie
April 23rd, 2016, 03:07 AM
Scriptures EXPLICITLY tells us of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world:
KJV Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.But he cannot read what is written, hence, genuineoriginal says: "The verse is not stating that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

His alter ego rejoices and says:
Excellent!

Why can't more people see this?! It's so clear but people refuse to see. It seems the truth is often hidden in plain sight.

Great post!For his alter ego, what GO says is the truth and what the Bible says is not the truth.

If NOT Christ, then who is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?

dodge
April 23rd, 2016, 01:57 PM
Not quite.
The verse is not stating that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

By comparing these three verses, we can see that it is the book of life that is from the foundation of the world and that the book of life is now the Lamb's book of life.

Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 21:27
27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

So based on your reasoning the book of life got slain ?

Jesus was the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world keeps the context of the verse.

Did Almighty God know that Jesus would be crucified BEFORE the heavens and earth was created ? Of course He did.

Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Simply put the book of life contains the names of those who are born again and in Christ Jesus who was slain from the foundation of the world.

kmoney
April 23rd, 2016, 02:24 PM
If you are using the court metaphor, Christ's death was not a legal payment for our sins.
It was the bar exam that Jesus passed in order to become our public defender.
I think I like that. :think:

dodge
April 23rd, 2016, 02:37 PM
If you are using the court metaphor, Christ's death was not a legal payment for our sins.
It was the bar exam that Jesus passed in order to become our public defender.

"Jhn 19:30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


You might want to do a study on how the Romans ended a sentence that had been served. They placed a parchment on the door when the sentence was served that read "it is finished" . Jesus had become the PAYMENT of sin for all that would place their faith in Him, and by doing so HE became the advocate for all that trusts and follows Him.

Samie
April 23rd, 2016, 05:11 PM
"Jhn 19:30
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


You might want to do a study on how the Romans ended a sentence that had been served. They placed a parchment on the door when the sentence was served that read "it is finished" . Jesus had become the PAYMENT of sin for all that would place their faith in Him, and by doing so HE became the advocate for all that trusts and follows Him.I think the parchment was placed on the door when Jesus cried "It is finished". And that covers every person in Adam's race.

He did not cry "It will be finished when a person places their faith in Me." KJV 1 Timothy 2:5-6
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.IF a person cannot be forgiven unless he first places his faith in Christ, then no one was forgiven on the cross. Unbiblical, it seems:NAS Colossians 2:13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressionsClearly, the text declares the making alive TOGETHER with Christ was AFTER all transgressions were forgiven. IOW, when Christ rose from the grave, all sins were already forgiven.

dodge
April 23rd, 2016, 05:18 PM
I think the parchment was placed on the door when Jesus cried "It is finished". And that covers every person in Adam's race.

He did not cry "It will be finished when a person places their faith in Me." KJV 1 Timothy 2:5-6
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.IF a person cannot be forgiven unless he first places his faith in Christ, then no one was forgiven on the cross. Unbiblical, it seems:NAS Colossians 2:13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressionsClearly, the text declares the making alive TOGETHER with Christ was AFTER all transgressions were forgiven. IOW, when Christ rose from the grave, all sins were already forgiven.

The thief on the cross said to Jesus Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom meaning the thief PLACED HIS FAITH IN JESUS. Jesus then said today you will be with me in paradise.

Clete
April 23rd, 2016, 05:58 PM
So based on your reasoning the book of life got slain ?

Jesus was the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world keeps the context of the verse.

Did Almighty God know that Jesus would be crucified BEFORE the heavens and earth was created ? Of course He did.

Revelation 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Simply put the book of life contains the names of those who are born again and in Christ Jesus who was slain from the foundation of the world.

You're throwing a lot of pearls into the slop here, Dodge.

Just sayin'

kmoney
April 23rd, 2016, 06:21 PM
This is something I would like to dig into more myself. However, I do think that it is incorrect to view forgiveness through Christ as justice. Justice would be getting what you deserve, justice would be death. Forgiveness is a mercy, and mercy transcends justice.


James 2:12-13 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy [m]triumphs over judgment.

I would also say that it is incorrect to assert that because of Christ that God now has the ability to forgive sin. He has always been willing to forgive one who repents earnestly. Take a look at David, for instance, who clearly deserved death for his transgressions. Rather, scripture says that Christ was given the authority to forgive sins from God - even before his sacrifice.


Matthew 9:5-8 Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, and walk’? 6 But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—then He *said to the paralytic, “Get up, pick up your bed and go home.” 7 And he got up and [c]went home. 8 But when the crowds saw this, they were [d]awestruck, and glorified God, who had given such authority to men.

It is also not the case that either sin or death for it are completely done away with, at least at this point. Rather, we must die and be born again. I think this to be a more accurate understanding of what Christ's death accomplished: that just as he died, we must die - and as he rose, so too will we rise. It is the New Covenant which was established with Christ's blood - so that everyone be afforded the opportunity, the right, to become children of God.


Romans 8:3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of [c]sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, [B]He condemned sin in the flesh


1 Corinthians 15:21-22 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in [h]Christ all will be made alive.


Luke 22:20 And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.


Hebrews 9:16-17 For where a [q]covenant is, there must of necessity [r]be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a [s]covenant is valid only when [t]men are dead, [u]for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.

Good post. I think I agree with all of this.

I wouldn't say that God couldn't forgive without the crucifixion. Jesus' death may have been necessary, but not to establish or make possible God's forgiveness. It established his priesthood and the new covenant. Or, to point back to the genuineoriginal post I quoted, Christ is now our public defender in a more legal framework.

dodge
April 23rd, 2016, 06:34 PM
You're throwing a lot of pearls into the slop here, Dodge.

Just sayin'

Sadly, many folks have not been served well by their teachers.

When God tells me these folks are beyond help and to no longer cast His pearls I will stop I assure you.

Samie
April 23rd, 2016, 06:45 PM
The thief on the cross said to Jesus Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom meaning the thief PLACED HIS FAITH IN JESUS. Jesus then said today you will be with me in paradise.Is it not paradise to be In Christ?

And that same day, the thief, as well as you and me and everybody else in Adam's race, was fashioned into His Body on the cross BEFORE Christ cried out "It is finished".

What I'm saying is, to say that only those who place their faith in Christ are ones who can be In Christ is totally against Christ's own words, that apart from Him man can do NOTHING. But although every one was fashioned into His Body, only overcomers of evil with good will finally make it to the heavenly portals and eternal life.

dodge
April 23rd, 2016, 06:49 PM
Samie;4684377]Is it not paradise to be In Christ?

YES !


And that same day, the thief, as well as you and me and everybody else in Adam's race, was fashioned into His Body on the cross BEFORE Christ cried out "It is finished".

NO wrong ! The thief placed his faith in Jesus as we all individually must do according to scripture.


What I'm saying is, to say that only those who place their faith in Christ are ones who can be In Christ is totally against Christ's own words, that apart from Him man can do NOTHING. But although every one was fashioned into His Body, only overcomers of evil with good will finally make it to the heavenly portals and eternal life.

Scripture teaches that we must ALL individually place our faith in Jesus as HE and the Apostles taught.

The thief, as you and I, placed his faith in Jesus !

Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Tambora
April 23rd, 2016, 07:19 PM
Exodus 32:33 KJV
(33) And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.


How many have sinned?

Samie
April 23rd, 2016, 08:18 PM
Exodus 32:33 KJV
(33) And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.


How many have sinned?Since all have sinned, will all be blotted out? Christ answers: Ovecomers will NOT be blotted out. Rev 3:5

Will you disagree with Christ?

Tambora
April 23rd, 2016, 08:25 PM
Exodus 32:33 KJV
(33) And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.


How many have sinned?

Since all have sinned, will all be blotted out? Christ answers: Ovecomers will NOT be blotted out. Rev 3:5

Will you disagree with Christ?
I believe God is the author of both verses, and both are true.

Those in Christ have no sin that can count against them.

Samie
April 23rd, 2016, 08:26 PM
YES !



NO wrong ! The thief placed his faith in Jesus as we all individually must do according to scripture.



Scripture teaches that we must ALL individually place our faith in Jesus as HE and the Apostles taught.

The thief, as you and I, placed his faith in Jesus !

Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.You have gone astray from the original issue: When was the document placed on the door?

You said it was placed on the door when one places his faith in Christ. That's salvation by works. Unbiblical

It was placed on the door when Christ cried "It is finished". You simply ignored what I posted here (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?117520-Could-God-forgive-without-crucifixion&p=4684305&viewfull=1#post4684305).

Samie
April 23rd, 2016, 08:31 PM
I believe God is the author of both verses, and both are true.

Those in Christ have no sin that can count against them.Correct. And all people are born In Christ.

People are blotted out for REFUSAL to overcome evil with good. Only overcomers will be with Christ on His throne.Revelation 3:21 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Tambora
April 23rd, 2016, 08:36 PM
Is the book of life and the Lamb's book of life the same book?

Could not the book of life be about the physically living?
And to be stricken from that book means physical death.

For consideration:


Exodus 32:31-33 KJV
(31) And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
(32) Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
(33) And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.



Is Moses saying if God won't forgive them, then just just let me die now?

If one is written in the book means ETERNAL life (rather than physical), then it would have been impossible for anyone to be eliminated (you can't make ETERNAL life be NON-ETERNAL life).
ETERNAL is ETERNAL.

dodge
April 23rd, 2016, 08:42 PM
You have gone astray from the original issue: When was the document placed on the door?

You said it was placed on the door when one places his faith in Christ. That's salvation by works. Unbiblical

It was placed on the door when Christ cried "It is finished". You simply ignored what I posted here (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?117520-Could-God-forgive-without-crucifixion&p=4684305&viewfull=1#post4684305).

The document was placed on the door when the sentence had been COMPLETED.. Jesus' sacrifice was payment in full to satisfy the Holiness and justice of God for OUR sins.

No one can EARN grace as it is a gift of God. God makes the rules NOT man nor a denomination.

I did not ignore your point I tried to explain to you that the thief on the cross as we all must do placed his faith in Jesus when he said Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom ( as we all must do ) .

I then quoted a verse that supports that we must come to God in faith.

Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Samie
April 23rd, 2016, 09:20 PM
The document was placed on the door when the sentence had been COMPLETED.. Jesus' sacrifice was payment in full to satisfy the Holiness and justice of God for OUR sins.

No one can EARN grace as it is a gift of God. God makes the rules NOT man nor a denomination.

I did not ignore your point I tried to explain to you that the thief on the cross as we all must do placed his faith in Jesus when he said Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom ( as we all must do ) .

I then quoted a verse that supports that we must come to God in faith.

Heb 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.I did not take issue with coming to God in faith. I took issue when you said:"Jesus had become the PAYMENT of sin for all that would place their faith in Him, and by doing so HE became the advocate for all that trusts and follows Him."

It should be for all in Adam's race, no one exempted. I even provided the verse in my response.

Samie
April 23rd, 2016, 09:21 PM
Is the book of life and the Lamb's book of life the same book?

Could not the book of life be about the physically living?
And to be stricken from that book means physical death.

For consideration:


Exodus 32:31-33 KJV
(31) And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold.
(32) Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
(33) And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.



Is Moses saying if God won't forgive them, then just just let me die now?

If one is written in the book means ETERNAL life (rather than physical), then it would have been impossible for anyone to be eliminated (you can't make ETERNAL life be NON-ETERNAL life).
ETERNAL is ETERNAL.There is only ONE book referred to in the whole Bible where names are written: the book of life = the Lamb's book of life.

It's His book, and He can blot out whom He judges to be not fit for heaven.

genuineoriginal
April 24th, 2016, 11:23 PM
Scriptures EXPLICITLY tells us of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world:
I showed you how you misinterpreted the verse.
But, it wasn't you, I am sure you were given the misinterpretation from someone else and never thought to question it.


So based on your reasoning the book of life got slain ?
Now you are being silly.

I assumed that you already knew of the verses that mention the slain lamb.

Revelation 5:6
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.


Revelation 5:12
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.


Jesus was the lamb slain from before the foundation of the world keeps the context of the verse.
Well, if Jesus was slain from before the foundation of the world, then it would have been pointless for Him to come down to earth and get slain all over again.
.
No, Jesus was found worthy to open the book because He was obedient unto death, even death on the cross, not because He was slain before the foundation of the world.

Predi
April 25th, 2016, 05:11 AM
You said Paul was not worried about other's salvation. Why did he want to see the Romans so bad?

As he himself said, to make them stronger.

Predi
April 25th, 2016, 05:31 AM
Predi,

Why bother asking questions if you aren't going to think through the answers given to you?

Since you are effectively ignoring my answer, answer your own question...


I believe the answers you gave were based on wrong interpretation of certain biblical terms or errors in translation.

chrysostom
April 25th, 2016, 05:46 AM
I believe the answers you gave were based on wrong interpretation of certain biblical terms or errors in translation.
how do you determine what is the right interpretation?

Clete
April 25th, 2016, 06:06 AM
I believe the answers you gave were based on wrong interpretation of certain biblical terms or errors in translation.

You can translate the bible better than those who did the New King James?

That's interesting!

Which translation is it that you prefer? There are 24 different English language translations of the bible on BibleGateway.com. Pick whichever translation you deem to be superior and I'll quote the same verses from that.

I'll tell you in advance that it won't change anything but if you don't like the New King James, then I'll prove the same point again with whichever translation you pick.

And as for interpretation, I didn't interpret anything! I simply quoted the verses verbatim. If the simple reading is insufficient then it is up to you to demonstrate that not only is an interpretation needed but that yours in the correct interpretation.

Finally, you didn't answer the question. How do you answer the question you posed in the opening post?
Why couldn't God have just forgiven people and been done with it? Why did Jesus have to die?


Resting in Him,
Clete

chrysostom
April 25th, 2016, 06:22 AM
29. Therefore, salvation is by grace through faith since it was not by our keeping the Law, but by Jesus, God in flesh, who fulfilled the Law and died in our place. (Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:13; Eph. 5:2)

30. Finally, it follows from the above that a person’s duty is to believe, claiming Christ’s atoning sacrifice as their own in order to be declared righteous before God. Such a true believer will be known from their works.

AMR

so how will their works be known
-if
-they don't keep the law?

Predi
April 25th, 2016, 06:24 AM
how do you determine what is the right interpretation?

Using my brain and seeing if the interpretation is consistent with the rest of the Bible.

chrysostom
April 25th, 2016, 06:25 AM
And as for interpretation, I didn't interpret anything! I simply quoted the verses verbatim.
so why did you pick those passages
-if
-your interpretation of those passages didn't address the question

chrysostom
April 25th, 2016, 06:27 AM
Using my brain and seeing if the interpretation is consistent with the rest of the Bible.

your brain should tell you that you need information that is not contained in the bible

Predi
April 25th, 2016, 06:54 AM
You can translate the bible better than those who did the New King James?

I don't know the original languages well enough to translate, but there are others, who do.

Even though if I compared my knowledge with knowledge of the translators of the original 1611 KJV, who knows...


Which translation is it that you prefer? There are 24 different English language translations of the bible on BibleGateway.com. Pick whichever translation you deem to be superior and I'll quote the same verses from that.

I'll tell you in advance that it won't change anything but if you don't like the New King James, then I'll prove the same point again with whichever translation you pick.

Among these 24 translations I would choose YLT... sometimes sounds awkward, and sometimes... too literal :) - but it has the least amount of added theology... but Clete... if you state right away, "it won't change anything" I don't think there's a point...


And as for interpretation, I didn't interpret anything!

You must have, even by choosing just that very passage. Without interpreting a verse you can't tell what it means. It would be great if all words meant the same thing to all people, but it's not happening.


Finally, you didn't answer the question. How do you answer the question you posed in the opening post?
Why couldn't God have just forgiven people and been done with it? Why did Jesus have to die?

Why couldn't God have just forgiven..? Perhaps He could have.
Why did Jesus have to die? I can't remember a verse literally saying He had to die. And the shortest answer to the questions, "Why did Jesus die?" is "because the Jews killed him."

It doesn't make sense to me, that He had to die in order to forgive sins. I think it's too early for me to make statements, I'm still looking, therefore... I started this thread.

jamie
April 25th, 2016, 08:06 AM
Why did Jesus have to die? I can't remember a verse literally saying He had to die.



...how much more shall the blood of the Christ (who through the age-during Spirit did offer himself unblemished to God) purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And because of this, of a new covenant he is mediator, that, death having come, for redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, those called may receive the promise of the age-during inheritance...
(Hebrews 9:14-15 YLT)

The blood of Christ is for the firstborn of the Father just as it was symbolically in Egypt where the blood was applied to the lintel and doorposts in the form of a cross. The blood is a sign of preservation of the life of the firstborn who may die physically but not spiritually which is the second death. The firstborn are passed over with regard to eternal death. They are given eternal life by grace because of the Lamb's blood.

Cross Reference
April 25th, 2016, 10:13 AM
The blood of Christ is for the firstborn of the Father just as it was symbolically in Egypt where the blood was applied to the lintel and doorposts in the form of a cross. The blood is a sign of preservation of the life of the firstborn who may die physically but not spiritually which is the second death. The firstborn are passed over with regard to eternal death. They are given eternal life by grace because of the Lamb's blood.


Ist born?? Only because Pharoah called it out to be the first born.

Crucible
April 25th, 2016, 10:25 AM
Forgiveness doesn't always require death, but it always requires cost.

This is one of the most, if not the most, rudimentary truths of God. People want a god who simply waves a wand and, just like that, all things are forgiven and water under the bridge.

But that is not a god who is Holy, that is a very human, fallible god. People want God to be both, and it's just not possible. This is why the crucifixion of Christ is so important, because without it we would all be as Babylonians destined for the flames.

genuineoriginal
April 25th, 2016, 11:12 AM
Why couldn't God have just forgiven..? Perhaps He could have.
There is a difference between something you could do and something you would do.
God could just forgave sins without any requirement, but He would never do that.

Finding out why God would never forgive sins without any requirement is easy.
Just look at how children end up when their parent lets them get away with everything.


Why did Jesus have to die? I can't remember a verse literally saying He had to die.
The main two ways of looking at it that I find credible is that Jesus dies as part of the sacrificial system or Jesus died as a test of obedience.
With either of these, Jesus had to die.


It doesn't make sense to me, that He had to die in order to forgive sins. I think it's too early for me to make statements, I'm still looking, therefore... I started this thread.
Look at the sacrificial system.
An animal is brought forth, the sinner puts his hand on the animal's head, and then the animal is killed as a sacrifice for the sinner's sins.
Most people cannot make sense of it, but those that can make sense of it understand that the purpose is to show the sinner how bad the sin is in order to get the sinner to have remorse.
The system did not turn out that way in the long run, because the people killing the animals treated it like it was a bribe to a corrupt official instead of an object lesson about their sins.

The other option is the test of obedience.
Abraham was ordered to kill his favorite son, Isaac, in order to prove his faith through his obedience.
Jesus went to the cross and gave up His own life in order to prove his obedience.
This option makes a lot more sense to me than Jesus being a human sacrifice and has a lot of support in scripture.

The following verses make more sense using the test of obedience than with the sacrificial system.

Romans 5:19
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Philippians 2:8
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Hebrews 5:8
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

jamie
April 25th, 2016, 12:41 PM
Ist born?? Only because Pharoah called it out to be the first born.



Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD: “Israel is My son, My firstborn. So I say to you, let My son go that he may serve Me. But if you refuse to let him go, indeed I will kill your son, your firstborn.” ’  (Exodus 4:22-23)

The Bible is about Israel and Israel's relationship to Christ, their God.

Cross Reference
April 25th, 2016, 12:48 PM
Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD: “Israel is My son, My firstborn. So I say to you, let My son go that he may serve Me. But if you refuse to let him go, indeed I will kill your son, your firstborn.” ’  (Exodus 4:22-23)

The Bible is about Israel and Israel's relationship to Christ, their God.

Enough already. G'bye.

Crucible
April 25th, 2016, 12:58 PM
It doesn't make sense to me, that He had to die in order to forgive sins.

A 'messiah' is fundamentally someone sent forward to resolve a problem, especially for a particular people.
Gandhi, for example, was a messiah.

'The Messiah', however, is Christ. He is the 'universal' Messiah, as he was expected to be specifically for the Jews but turned out to be for much more than just them.

Because he is divine, neither Satan or mankind is capable of seeing through to a failure of his mission. Jesus was taken all the way to the cross and accomplished the goal, having paid the ultimate blood price for man's curse at large.

Predi
April 25th, 2016, 01:15 PM
Look at the sacrificial system.
An animal is brought forth, the sinner puts his hand on the animal's head, and then the animal is killed as a sacrifice for the sinner's sins.
Most people cannot make sense of it, but those that can make sense of it understand that the purpose is to show the sinner how bad the sin is in order to get the sinner to have remorse.


Exactly, merely to show the sinner... and that's it. I agree. God is not blood thirsty!

And sacrifices were only "working" for unintentional sins!

There is not a verse that states that they actually do anything (for example that God forgives sins through them), and there are many verses that say then don't matter as regards to what's between God and us (for example Hebrews 10:4).


The other option is the test of obedience.

How do you understand "test?" I can test someone to find out how they will react as I don't know that now, but does God need to find out anything?

bling
April 25th, 2016, 01:29 PM
If God is Love, how could God have a problem forgiving people? The reason given for “penal substitution” is God cannot forgive us without Jesus being our substitute, but that makes God out to having a problem, lacking in Love someway, and being almost blood thirsty.

What is the relationship between “forgiveness” and punishment of the individual for a transgression? (most theories of atonement like to talk about “sin” needing punishment yet sin cannot be “punished”, only people can be punished.)

Would the perfect parent (the one you would like to be and be like God) see to the punishment or discipline of his/her children in order to have the Love to forgive those children?

The best parent does not “punish” (discipline) their children in order for the parent to have the love to forgive, they punish (discipline with time out or something) their children for the benefit that discipline provides?

God does not have a “problem” forgiving us, but we need to be disciplined somehow in order to obtain the benefits from being disciplined. So God somehow need to see to our discipline for our transgressions without killing us and yet be fair, just and show us His concern/Love.

What are the “benefits” to being fairly (disciplined) for our transgressions?

Answers:

Deterrent for the person being disciplined and others aware of the discipline which keeps them from repeating the action.

It places the value on the transgression (the greater severity to the disciplining the greater the transgression), sometimes we do not know how much pain it has caused until we know the how we will be disciplined for the transgression.

It shows fairness and justice, the parent/judge needs to be consistent and we want to know we have a fair and just parent/judge.

It is a way to put the transgression behind us, since we have done the time for the crime.

It also should strength and improves the relationship between the parent and the child it is a teaching moment.

We know wonderful parent see to the discipline of the children they Love if at all possible, so if our parents do not discipline us, we should rightfully question their love/concern for us.


Just as the father wanted his sons to be like himself in the prodigal son story, God wants us to choose to humbly accept His Love and become like He is. The only initial way for humans to obtain Godly type Love is as a free gift automatically “...He that is forgiven of an unbelievable huge debt will automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love)”. That Love can later grow with use, but cannot be developed independently or instinctively possessed by the individual. Thus the need for sin and likely alternatives on earth (the perceived pleasures of sin).

God the Father is doing everything God can do to help willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective which includes (at great personal cost to God) the allowing a willing Christ to go to the cross.
Christ is not trying to “pay off the debt created by our sins” since our sins created an impossible debt to pay. That “debt” cannot be paid (it is totally irreconcilable) but it can be “forgiven”. God’s Love can allow Him to forgive our huge debt without Christ going to the cross. Christ is not trying to make “restitution” for us (that is not possible), but is providing a way for us as children to be disciplined (disciplining is not bringing about restitution) so the disciplining does not have to equal the “restitution” or hell for those that refuse the disciplining in this life. Discipline is not punishment although in scripture negative discipline is often translated punishment.

genuineoriginal
April 25th, 2016, 02:02 PM
The other option is the test of obedience.


How do you understand "test?" I can test someone to find out how they will react as I don't know that now, but does God need to find out anything?
There are two ways I find credible for looking at whether God needs to find out anything.

The first is that God already knows the outcome and that the test is for the person being tested to find out.

The second is that God has given mankind the divine power of free-will, and while God may be reasonably certain of the outcome, He cannot guarantee the results of a free-will decision without divine intervention.

The free-will explanation is the one I believe has the most support in scripture (preponderance of evidence test).



So, now comes reconciling either of these with the death of Jesus as a test of obedience.

If Jesus is God Himself come to earth to sacrifice Himself to satisfy His own ideals of justice, then there is no need for a test of obedience.
Both of the ideas, God sacrificing Himself for His own ideals of justice and God giving Himself a test of obedience, would be equally pointless, in my opinion.

So, if we accept that the death of Jesus was a test of obedience based on the evidence in scriptue, we must look at the relationship of Jesus to the Father a bit differently than is taught by strict Trinitarians.

If Jesus is the Messiah (Christ), the Son of God, as is frequently mentioned throughout scripture and not God Himself, then a test of obedience could be justified.
From what I read in the Bible, when Jesus went around ‎Judea and Samaria, He did it with nothing more than any other man had available.
All the power Jesus showed came from God through the Holy Spirit as a direct result of Jesus' faith as shown to God through prayer and fasting.

With all the power that Jesus displayed, what could justify giving Jesus a test of obedience to see if He would give up His life on the cross?

Romans 5:6-8
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Revelation 5:9
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

The power to grant eternal life to whoever He wanted was the ultimate goal of Jesus' mission.
This power was so great that it warranted the greatest test of obedience as anything seen before.

Jesus is not unique in having His faith tested unto death.

Hebrews 11:36-38
36 And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38 (Of whom the world was not worthy: ) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

Jesus is unique in having the full power to stop it at any time, but still going through with it with full knowledge of what would be done to Him.

Matthew 26:53-54
53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

The choice to go through with it was very difficult for Jesus, but He went through with it anyway.

Luke 22:41-44
41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
43 And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.
44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

As with any test of obedience, it is only valid if the person being tested has the full ability to choose to disobey, which Jesus did.

His reward was greater than anyone else has ever been rewarded with.

Philippians 2:5-11
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Predi
April 25th, 2016, 02:59 PM
So, if we accept that the death of Jesus was a test of obedience based on the evidence in scriptue, we must look at the relationship of Jesus to the Father a bit differently than is taught by strict Trinitarians.

That's a very interesting theory, I haven't heard of it. It seems to shed light to a few verses I was always puzzled about...


Jesus is unique in having the full power to stop it at any time, but still going through with it with full knowledge of what would be done to Him.

That's true...

But to understand your theology fully I need to know who you understand Jesus is. Not God, but Son of God, but what does it mean? How is He different than us?

genuineoriginal
April 25th, 2016, 04:46 PM
That's a very interesting theory, I haven't heard of it. It seems to shed light to a few verses I was always puzzled about...



That's true...

But to understand your theology fully I need to know who you understand Jesus is. Not God, but Son of God, but what does it mean? How is He different than us?
I try to take the scriptures at face value, which is commonly known as the literal, grammatical, historical hermeneutic.

_____
DISPENSATIONAL HERMENEUTICS: The Grammatico -Historical Method (http://www.spiritandtruth.org/teaching/documents/articles/25/25.htm?x=x)

... First, according to Ram, literal interpretation encompasses the idea of assigning to every word the same meaning it would have in its normal usage, whether employed in speaking, writing, or thinking.
... Second, literalism resists going beyond what is written. Because literalism resists “going beyond the facts,” when interpreting a given text, literal interpreters resist the temptation to import foreign ideas from outside the text.
... Grammatical interpretation observes the impact that grammar plays in any given text. Thus, bible interpreters must correctly analyze the relationship that words, phrases, or sentences have toward one another.
... Historical interpretation takes into account historical context, setting, and circumstances in which the words of Scripture were written.

(In an amusing twist, this is the hermenutic method that caused me to reject Dispensationalism because it failed to meet the test)

So, for Christology, the study of who Christ is, I take the literal phrases of the Bible stating who He is, then take into account the grammar of the text and the historical context of the writing.

I look for what Jesus is explicitly stated to be, then for what Jesus is implied to be, and finally I look for what Jesus must be to make the statements about Him to be true statements.

You may notice that this is in the exact opposite order than is used by most other people, but I believe it is the only correct order to do it.

Jesus is explicitly stated to be the Son of God and God's only begotten Son.
Therefore, these are things I must believe about Jesus.

Jesus is implied to be the Word made flesh, and the Word is explicitly stated to be God.
Jesus explicitly stated that He and the Father are one, but Jesus also prayed that all believers would be one in the manner that Jesus and the Father are one.
There is a strong enough implication that Jesus is God that the First Council of Nicaea in 325 CE declared that Jesus was "very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father."
However, historical evaluation of John 1:1 shows it is talking about a Greek philosophical concept called the Logos, which refers to a purpose, and the Logos being made flesh is a statement that God's purpose took on a human form when Jesus was begotten, not that God Himself took on human form.

Jesus has the power to forgive people for sins against God, raise people from the dead, and grant eternal life to others.
This is enough other evidence in the Bible that shows Jesus assuming a role that only God has, even to the point of being called Lord.
To contrast this are the statements that Jesus made about the power and authority He has was given to Him by God and is not His own power.

From the statements about Jesus in the Bible appears to be an acceptable spectrum of belief of who and what Jesus is that ranges from Him being God's human son and right hand man who God exalted above the angels (Hebrews 1) to being God Himself.

Jesus being God's human son and right hand man who God exalted above the angels satisfies the condition for what Jesus must be to make the Biblical statements true with little contradiction.
Jesus being God requires a significant number of the Biblical statements to be stretched to fit with a lot of contradiction, and the only way I can see of reconciling them is to assume that when God became Jesus, He had nothing more than any other human had from the time of conception to the time He ascended to the Father, which would match up with the statement in Philippians 2:7.

Even though I know that it is possible that Jesus is God Himself in human form, I find that looking at Jesus as a man with a special ability to communicate with God makes it a lot easier to understand the scriptures in the manner they were intended to be understood.

That includes being able to see that the death on the cross was a test of Jesus' obedience instead of God doing something strange and apparently unnecessary.

Predi
April 26th, 2016, 05:47 AM
I try to take the scriptures at face value, which is commonly known as the literal, grammatical, historical hermeneutic.

This is soooo interesting. And difficult, and complicated, but still - interesting.

And I like it that you don't make any dogmas... any theological statements... To simply say, "Jesus = God" brings many problematic verses. So does "Jesus is just a man".


I find that looking at Jesus as a man with a special ability to communicate with God makes it a lot easier to understand the scriptures

A man with special abilities... that seems to make sense, even though it's not easy to understand.

I'll keep thinking.. And now I need to come back to your previous post about the test of obedience.

And what you said about hermeneutics... I am usually for literalism, too, but what always puzzles me that there are many examples where the apostles interpreted the Old Testament in a totally non-literal way. They should know better :)

Clete
April 26th, 2016, 06:53 AM
so why did you pick those passages
-if
-your interpretation of those passages didn't address the question

The term 'interpretation' in the context in which Predi used it implies that you understand a passage to be saying something other than a simple reading of the text would convey. I did no such interpreting, I simply quoted the verse at let is say what it seems to say, which of course is directly pertinent to the topic being discussed.

Now, I know you knew all that when you asked the question so what was your point, exactly?

Clete
April 26th, 2016, 07:41 AM
Among these 24 translations I would choose YLT... sometimes sounds awkward, and sometimes... too literal :) - but it has the least amount of added theology... but Clete... if you state right away, "it won't change anything" I don't think there's a point...
You know there's no point because you know that the bible says in one translation, basically the same thing in any other.

You know what's fixing to happen but here goes nothing....

Here are all of the verses I have quoted in this thread to date, in the order in which I quoted them....

From post #30


Luke 17:3 `Take heed to yourselves, and, if thy brother may sin in regard to thee, rebuke him, and if he may reform, forgive him,
4 and if seven times in the day he may sin against thee, and seven times in the day may turn back to thee, saying, I reform; thou shalt forgive him.'

Matthew 18:21 Then Peter having come near to him, said, `Sir, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him -- till seven times?'
22 Jesus saith to him, `I do not say to thee till seven times, but till seventy times seven.

From post #91


Romans 12:19 not avenging yourselves, beloved, but give place to the wrath, for it hath been written, `Vengeance [is] Mine,

Hebrews 10:30 for we have known Him who is saying, `Vengeance [is] Mine, I will recompense, saith the Lord;' and again, `The Lord shall judge His people;' --

Psalms 37:30 The mouth of the righteous uttereth wisdom, And his tongue speaketh judgment.

Psalms 58:10 The righteous rejoiceth that he hath seen vengeance, His steps he washeth in the blood of the wicked.

Revelation 6:10 and they were crying with a great voice, saying, `Till when, O Master, the Holy and the True, dost Thou not judge and take vengeance of our blood from those dwelling upon the land?'

I Corinthians 5:9 I did write to you in the epistle, not to keep company with whoremongers --
10 and not certainly with the whoremongers of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, seeing ye ought then to go forth out of the world --
11 and now, I did write to you not to keep company with [him], if any one, being named a brother, may be a whoremonger, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner -- with such a one not even to eat together;
12 for what have I also those without to judge? those within do ye not judge?
13 and those without God doth judge; and put ye away the evil from among yourselves.

Romans 10:8 But what doth it say? `Nigh thee is the saying -- in thy mouth, and in thy heart:' that is, the saying of the faith, that we preach;
9 that if thou mayest confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and mayest believe in thy heart that God did raise him out of the dead, thou shalt be saved,
10 for with the heart doth [one] believe to righteousness, and with the mouth is confession made to salvation;
11 for the Writing saith, `Every one who is believing on him shall not be ashamed,'
12 for there is no difference between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord of all [is] rich to all those calling upon Him,
13 for every one -- whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved.'

From post # 150


I Corinthians 5:Whoredom is actually heard of among you, and such whoredom as is not even named among the nations -- as that one hath the wife of the father! --
2 and ye are having been puffed up, and did not rather mourn, that he may be removed out of the midst of you who did this work,
3 for I indeed, as being absent as to the body, and present as to the spirit, have already judged, as being present, him who so wrought this thing:
4 in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ -- ye being gathered together, also my spirit -- with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 to deliver up such a one to the Adversary for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


Now, as I predicted, the exact same argument (a purely BIBLICAL argument, I might add) is made with your favorite translation

AND

The text of scripture will once again prove insufficient to move your off your personal opinion about who should be forgiven and why.

Nothing changed.


You must have, even by choosing just that very passage. Without interpreting a verse you can't tell what it means. It would be great if all words meant the same thing to all people, but it's not happening.
Don't be stupid. Stupidity angers me rather quickly.

Words mean things and we can understand English when we read it. If a passage is allegorical or some form of figure of speech or symbolic in some way then interpretation in excess of a simple reading of the words is necessary but nothing I've quoted falls into any such category and if you think otherwise, as I stated before, it is up to you to demonstrate that the passage doesn't mean what it seems to mean and that your interpretation is superior than the plain reading of the text.

Now, all of that is third grade level stuff that you knew before you made this ridiculous point and made me waste my time explaining it to you. Don't go down this road any further.


Why couldn't God have just forgiven..? Perhaps He could have.
Do you not understand that this is blasphemy?

Can you seriously not see that you are presenting yourself as being wiser than God?

"Gee wiz, God! I sure wish you'd have asked me before you went and had your Son killed and all! I could have saved everyone so much pain and grief! That crucifixion was a complete waste of wood and nails!"


Why did Jesus have to die? I can't remember a verse literally saying He had to die. And the shortest answer to the questions, "Why did Jesus die?" is "because the Jews killed him."
Umm, no. That is not correct.

Going back now to the New King James....

The following are the words of Jesus...

John 10:17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This COMMAND I have received from My Father.”


It doesn't make sense to me, that He had to die in order to forgive sins. I think it's too early for me to make statements, I'm still looking, therefore... I started this thread.
Well, an honest search for answers is always commendable but you've got to allow the bible to answer these particular questions because no one would know anything about Jesus or Christianity at all if not for the bible. It is THE source for Christian doctrine. And what's more is that all you have to do is read it. You need to get away from whomever it is filling your head with all this garbage. Just read the bible! Just read it and take it for what it seems to be saying. You'll get it right more often than not. You don't need someone to tell you what the bible says or what to think about it. Just simply read it and allow yourself to believe what you read. Otherwise, you're wasting your time even asking such questions. Why bother asking questions about the biblical God if you're not going to allow the bible to answer them? It makes no sense!

Resting in Him,
Clete

chrysostom
April 26th, 2016, 09:39 AM
I did no such interpreting, I simply quoted the verse at let is say what it seems to say, which of course is directly pertinent to the topic being discussed.

based on your interpretation of those verses
-do you agree that others interpret the bible?

Predi
April 26th, 2016, 09:54 AM
Here are all of the verses I have quoted in this thread to date, in the order in which I quoted them....

I admire how much time you have. Not enough to answer some of my questions, but that is ok, as I'm not going to answer all of yours, either.

It's amazing that you still hope you can convince me about anything - if we don't even read the same way.

My education tells me that words, in fact, mean nothing, unless they are connected with some ideas in our mind.

There is no exception to this rule, even with words considered as the most basic.

If I say, "A lot of bread", both "a lot" and "bread" can mean totally different things depending on where you are and who you talk to. TOTALLY different. And the bread Jesus broke at the last supper has only one common ingredient with bread you can buy in ShopRite, and it's water.

And you're saying that there exists something like "simple reading of text?"

Well, I believe it does, and there's not one verse in the Bible that everyone will understand the same way, and telling me I'm stupid doesn't change it.

"Forgiveness", "judgment" or "revenge" are much more complicated terms than "a lot of bread". They not only require a thorough interpretation, but this interpretation can totally vary in different passages.

Thanks for trying to convince me that the Bible is the source of Christian doctrine, but you don't have to do that, I strongly believe it already. It's just we read it in a totally different way.

You quoted a lot of verses with words like "judgment" and "vengeance" but if you ever dig into dictionary, you'll see they can have positive meanings. For example, the Greek "ekdikeo" can mean "avenge", "punish", "bring justice" or... "save", "give protection". In some cases it might be up to the heart of reader.

Exegesis is a very developed and science-based thing today but both Catholics and Protestants have their own exegetes, and somehow it doesn't help them in reaching a consensus...

chrysostom
April 26th, 2016, 09:59 AM
My education tells me that words, in fact, mean nothing, unless they are connected with some ideas in our mind..

where did you go to school?

Predi
April 26th, 2016, 12:04 PM
where did you go to school?

I went to a few schools, but I don't think the names of Polish towns the schools were in is what you're interested in :)

genuineoriginal
April 26th, 2016, 12:39 PM
A man with special abilities... that seems to make sense, even though it's not easy to understand.
Look at Elijah the prophet and the special abilities he had given to him through the Holy Spirit.
I am not saying Jesus is just a prophet, He is more than just a prophet, I am saying that the special powers Jesus had were all given to Him according to His own statements about the powers.


I'll keep thinking.. And now I need to come back to your previous post about the test of obedience.
Think about the following verses posted by Clete when you look at whether a test of obedience is a valid way of looking at why Jesus had to die:

Going back now to the New King James....

The following are the words of Jesus...

John 10:17 “Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This COMMAND I have received from My Father.”


And what you said about hermeneutics... I am usually for literalism, too, but what always puzzles me that there are many examples where the apostles interpreted the Old Testament in a totally non-literal way. They should know better :)
Maybe they did know better than we do, based on these verses:

Luke 24:44-45
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Without such a direct line as that, we have to make do with the tools available to us, and the literal, grammatical, historical method of studying the Bible is one of the best tools we have.

Clete
April 26th, 2016, 02:58 PM
I admire how much time you have. Not enough to answer some of my questions, but that is ok, as I'm not going to answer all of yours, either.

It's amazing that you still hope you can convince me about anything - if we don't even read the same way.

My education tells me that words, in fact, mean nothing, unless they are connected with some ideas in our mind.

There is no exception to this rule, even with words considered as the most basic.

If I say, "A lot of bread", both "a lot" and "bread" can mean totally different things depending on where you are and who you talk to. TOTALLY different. And the bread Jesus broke at the last supper has only one common ingredient with bread you can buy in ShopRite, and it's water.

And you're saying that there exists something like "simple reading of text?"

Well, I believe it does, and there's not one verse in the Bible that everyone will understand the same way, and telling me I'm stupid doesn't change it.

"Forgiveness", "judgment" or "revenge" are much more complicated terms than "a lot of bread". They not only require a thorough interpretation, but this interpretation can totally vary in different passages.

Thanks for trying to convince me that the Bible is the source of Christian doctrine, but you don't have to do that, I strongly believe it already. It's just we read it in a totally different way.

You quoted a lot of verses with words like "judgment" and "vengeance" but if you ever dig into dictionary, you'll see they can have positive meanings. For example, the Greek "ekdikeo" can mean "avenge", "punish", "bring justice" or... "save", "give protection". In some cases it might be up to the heart of reader.

Exegesis is a very developed and science-based thing today but both Catholics and Protestants have their own exegetes, and somehow it doesn't help them in reaching a consensus...
There is no hope for a productive conversation with a man who thinks that words have no meaning, including, it seems, the very words he used to state such a ridiculously self-defeating proposition.

And if that weren't enough, there is no point in having a biblical argument with a man who asks biblical questions but refuses to allow the bible to answer them.

You've allowed yourself to be educated into a blind stupor that has you convinced you can see just fine. You're a fool. Plain and simple.

You've earned my pity.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Predi
April 26th, 2016, 03:08 PM
You've earned my pity.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I think with your understanding of forgiveness your signature should be saying restless instead of resting, but who cares, you know, words have no meaning :crackup:

Predi
April 26th, 2016, 03:22 PM
Without such a direct line as that, we have to make do with the tools available to us, and the literal, grammatical, historical method of studying the Bible is one of the best tools we have.

I would give some of my organs to read the transcription of that conversation :)