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Robert Pate
April 18th, 2016, 01:01 PM
The first and most obvious to be elected was Jesus Christ. God chose Jesus Christ to be the savior of the world, 1 John 4:14. It was Jesus Christ that reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. If Jesus Christ reconciled us and the world unto God all other elections are irrelevant. It is just as important to be reconciled unto God as it is to be elected. The words "Reconciled" and "Elected" have pretty much the same biblical meaning.

RECONCILE: To bring back to friendship after an estrangement.

ELECTION: To choose or select a person.

God has chosen all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ, Ephesians 1:4. You cannot be reconciled without being elected, nor can you be elected without being reconciled.

When you are reconciled unto God you are also elected. The Bible knows nothing about an individual election. God is no respecter of persons, Acts 10:34. Everything that God does, he does corporately. The scripture does not say that Jesus only atoned for the sins of "Some Certain Persons". What it says is that Jesus atoned for the sins of the world, 1 John 2:2 and reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

Calvinist need to come to realize that Jesus has dealt with the sins of humanity, so that now... "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13. Whosoever means all, anyone, everyone that shall call upon the Lord shall be saved.

CherubRam
April 18th, 2016, 01:59 PM
The ones getting into heaven are the ones who keep God's commands. Do you remember the Sabbath?

Exodus 31:13
“Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

Exodus 31:17
It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”

Most Christians forget that they are a GRAFTED BRANCH.



1 John 5:3
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

2 John 1:6
And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

Revelation 12:17
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Revelation 14:12
This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

Totton Linnet
April 18th, 2016, 02:12 PM
He contradicts his own statements in one post

elect = select
no individual election

Crucible
April 18th, 2016, 02:16 PM
Pate believes everybody is the elect :rolleyes:

THEN WHY EVEN MAKE A DISTINCTION

Crucible
April 18th, 2016, 02:18 PM
He contradicts his own statements in one post

elect = select
no individual election

I don't think Pat even knows what he believes. I think he has some arbitrary complaint against Calvinism and just makes things up daily to try and attack it.

Sonnet
April 18th, 2016, 02:18 PM
1 Peter 1:20
He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Totton Linnet
April 18th, 2016, 03:34 PM
I don't think Pat even knows what he believes. I think he has some arbitrary complaint against Calvinism and just makes things up daily to try and attack it.

When folk reject bible doctrines and predestiny and election are huge in the bible they just seem to wander further and further away and anon find themselves in a dry desert place.

Totton Linnet
April 18th, 2016, 03:35 PM
...they become foolish

CherubRam
April 18th, 2016, 03:59 PM
The ones getting into heaven are the ones who keep God's commands. Do you remember the Sabbath?

Exodus 31:13
“Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.

Exodus 31:17
It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.’”

Most Christians forget that they are a GRAFTED BRANCH.



1 John 5:3
In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

2 John 1:6
And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.

Revelation 12:17
Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Revelation 14:12
This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

Who is a Jew or the nation Israel? http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?105095-Who-is-a-Jew-or-the-nation-Israel&highlight=

Robert Pate
April 18th, 2016, 04:18 PM
Who are the elect?

The elect are those that have been reconciled unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. And who has been reconciled unto God? ALL OF HUMANITY or the world.

"God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself" 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Wake up Calvinist! Why is it you cannot hear and believe the scriptures?

As far as God is concerned all of your sins are dead and buried and you have a free pass into heaven. To him that does nothing more than call on the name of the Lord shall be saved, Romans 10:13.

jamie
April 18th, 2016, 05:16 PM
To him that does nothing more than call on the name of the Lord shall be saved, Romans 10:13.


Does calling on the name of the Lord initiate salvation?

patrick jane
April 18th, 2016, 06:21 PM
Partaking of the free gift of salvation is not works

KingdomRose
April 18th, 2016, 06:47 PM
The first and most obvious to be elected was Jesus Christ. God chose Jesus Christ to be the savior of the world, 1 John 4:14. It was Jesus Christ that reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. If Jesus Christ reconciled us and the world unto God all other elections are irrelevant. It is just as important to be reconciled unto God as it is to be elected. The words "Reconciled" and "Elected" have pretty much the same biblical meaning.



I don't agree. Every one of us humans needs to be reconciled to God, because we all inherited death from Adam. But not all of us are of the "elect." Before Adam rebelled there was no need for any rule by Christ and his co-rulers. Every human would have been God's friend, without need of reconciliation, and would enjoy being governed by God Himself in a close friendship relationship. Christ never would have needed to come down to earth to reconcile anybody.

God's plan for humans is to have us live on this planet forever, enjoying abundance in everything (Isaiah 45:18). Adam goofed it up for a time, but Jesus paid the price to give us all the hope for an eternal life on earth once again. We are all imperfect and in need of big changes in ourselves, which will take 1,000 years to complete. Jesus will rule for 1,000 years and guide us to perfection. (Revelation 5:10, 20:4,6)

There are many scriptures that show what it will be like on the earth when Christ rules. Why are these ignored by most clergy and their people?

The next question is: if we are intended to live on the earth forever, why would God want us to go to heaven? Answer: He doesn't. There is just one reason for any human to go to heaven, and that is to rule with Christ, to help bring humans back to perfection (as well as guiding us in building and arranging, and taking care of the resurrected dead, etc.). How many humans would Christ need to rule with him? A ruling class is never very large, is it? 144,000 people is plenty, I imagine.

144,000 people will go to rule with Christ in heaven, and these are "the elect." They are the only ones who need to be anointed with Holy Spirit and "born again." If a person has ANY question about whether or not he/she is born-again, then they are not. I'm not. I want to live on earth forever. The Kingdom belongs to Jesus and the 144,000. The 144,000 are not better than the rest of us. Barack Obama is not better in any way than the rest of us, and do any of us really think that any of the people running a government are better than we are? Of course not. So we should not be insulted because we are not part of the ruling class.

So, no...when you are reconciled to God, that doesn't mean you are elected as well. So what? We of the earthly group will be able to run, dance, swim, play baseball, climb mountains, eat the most delicious food we ever tasted, learn everything we want to learn & keep on learning, forever.

And to be saved doesn't mean "go to heaven." We who will always be on Earth are also saved.

jamie
April 18th, 2016, 07:47 PM
Everything that God does, he does corporately.


Was Abraham saved corporately? Was Abel, Noah, Daniel? Were all of these saved corporately?

Robert Pate
April 18th, 2016, 08:25 PM
Does calling on the name of the Lord initiate salvation?

Salvation has already been provided for all by the doing and the dying of Jesus, but its not ours until it is received, John 1:12.

Robert Pate
April 18th, 2016, 08:28 PM
Was Abraham saved corporately? Was Abel, Noah, Daniel? Were all of these saved corporately?

Yes, salvation was provided for them before the foundation of the world.

They were all justified by faith because they believed God and his promise of a savior.

Robert Pate
April 18th, 2016, 08:35 PM
I don't agree. Every one of us humans needs to be reconciled to God, because we all inherited death from Adam. But not all of us are of the "elect." Before Adam rebelled there was no need for any rule by Christ and his co-rulers. Every human would have been God's friend, without need of reconciliation, and would enjoy being governed by God Himself in a close friendship relationship. Christ never would have needed to come down to earth to reconcile anybody.

God's plan for humans is to have us live on this planet forever, enjoying abundance in everything (Isaiah 45:18). Adam goofed it up for a time, but Jesus paid the price to give us all the hope for an eternal life on earth once again. We are all imperfect and in need of big changes in ourselves, which will take 1,000 years to complete. Jesus will rule for 1,000 years and guide us to perfection. (Revelation 5:10, 20:4,6)

There are many scriptures that show what it will be like on the earth when Christ rules. Why are these ignored by most clergy and their people?

The next question is: if we are intended to live on the earth forever, why would God want us to go to heaven? Answer: He doesn't. There is just one reason for any human to go to heaven, and that is to rule with Christ, to help bring humans back to perfection (as well as guiding us in building and arranging, and taking care of the resurrected dead, etc.). How many humans would Christ need to rule with him? A ruling class is never very large, is it? 144,000 people is plenty, I imagine.

144,000 people will go to rule with Christ in heaven, and these are "the elect." They are the only ones who need to be anointed with Holy Spirit and "born again." If a person has ANY question about whether or not he/she is born-again, then they are not. I'm not. I want to live on earth forever. The Kingdom belongs to Jesus and the 144,000. The 144,000 are not better than the rest of us. Barack Obama is not better in any way than the rest of us, and do any of us really think that any of the people running a government are better than we are? Of course not. So we should not be insulted because we are not part of the ruling class.

So, no...when you are reconciled to God, that doesn't mean you are elected as well. So what? We of the earthly group will be able to run, dance, swim, play baseball, climb mountains, eat the most delicious food we ever tasted, learn everything we want to learn & keep on learning, forever.

And to be saved doesn't mean "go to heaven." We who will always be on Earth are also saved.

You are allowing your cultist religion to dictate what the Bible is saying.

The scripture says that God has reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ. We had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with that.

Our part is to receive what Jesus has done to reconcile us to God. When you accept the free gift of salvation provided by Jesus then you will be reconciled unto God.

Jesus is our reconciler, 2 Corinthians 5:18,19 and our justifier, Romans 3:26.

Sonnet
April 18th, 2016, 09:39 PM
When folk reject bible doctrines and predestiny and election are huge in the bible they just seem to wander further and further away and anon find themselves in a dry desert place.

TULIP eviscerates the Gospel. It certainly does so for me.

Sonnet
April 18th, 2016, 09:41 PM
...they become foolish

Galatians 1:6-9

Nick M
April 18th, 2016, 09:47 PM
Does calling on the name of the Lord initiate salvation?

Romans 10

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

You always seem to be asking questions in a rhetorical way, yet you are always backwards from the answer.

jamie
April 18th, 2016, 10:00 PM
Romans 10

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

You always seem to be asking questions in a rhetorical way, yet you are always backwards from the answer.


Was Paul saved by calling on the name of the Lord? Is that what he was doing on the way to Damascus?

People have been calling on the name of the Lord since Enos (Genesis 4:26).

Sonnet
April 18th, 2016, 10:01 PM
Romans 10

9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

You always seem to be asking questions in a rhetorical way, yet you are always backwards from the answer.

If Jesus did not die for all, then he did not rise for all. That being so, why would Paul (who has in mind his unbelieving brethren - the Israelites) suggest they do so?

"...believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead (and) you will be saved."

You can't maintain your integrity and preach this if you think that Christ did not die and resurrect for all.

Sonnet
April 18th, 2016, 10:07 PM
Was Paul saved by calling on the name of the Lord? Is that what he was doing on the way to Damascus?

People have been calling on the name of the Lord since Enos (Genesis 4:26).

Is it possible that God foresaw that Paul would put his faith in Christ, just as Abraham did?

Ben Masada
April 18th, 2016, 10:36 PM
He contradicts his own statements in one post

elect = select
no individual election

The elect one, is quoted down in Revelation 14:12. "Here is the patience of the Saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the Faith of Jesus." ...which was Judaism.

Sonnet
April 18th, 2016, 10:40 PM
The elect one, is quoted down in Revelation 14:12. "Here is the patience of the Saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the Faith of Jesus." ...which was Judaism.

You know of anyone that has kept the commandments? Jesus Christ?

Ben Masada
April 18th, 2016, 10:53 PM
Who are the elect?

The elect are those that have been reconciled unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. And who has been reconciled unto God? ALL OF HUMANITY or the world.

"God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself" 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Wake up Calvinist! Why is it you cannot hear and believe the scriptures?

As far as God is concerned all of your sins are dead and buried and you have a free pass into heaven. To him that does nothing more than call on the name of the Lord shall be saved, Romans 10:13.

I would like to remind you of Revelation 14:12. The answer-truth for that question above is in that quote. There is no need of struggle to find one.

Ben Masada
April 18th, 2016, 11:03 PM
You know of anyone that has kept the commandments? Jesus Christ?

The Lord our God knows that we are humans and, as such, we cannot be perfect. Hence He said that every time we need to set things right with the Lord so that our sins, from scarlet red become as white as snow, we must be reminded constantly. Otherwise, we will get too proud. (Isaiah 1:18,19) Now, because we cannot be perfect, we have to reject the Law and the Prophets? At least, this will keep us out of condemnation. All the same. There is not a single one who has done only good and never sinned. (Ecclesiastes 7:20)

Sonnet
April 19th, 2016, 12:13 AM
The Lord our God knows that we are humans and, as such, we cannot be perfect. Hence He said that every time we need to set things right with the Lord so that our sins, from scarlet red become as white as snow, we must be reminded constantly. Otherwise, we will get too proud. (Isaiah 1:18,19) Now, because we cannot be perfect, we have to reject the Law and the Prophets? At least, this will keep us out of condemnation. All the same. There is not a single one who has done only good and never sinned. (Ecclesiastes 7:20)

Sorry Ben, I'm not following you.

beloved57
April 19th, 2016, 01:28 AM
The first and most obvious to be elected was Jesus Christ. God chose Jesus Christ to be the savior of the world, 1 John 4:14. It was Jesus Christ that reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. If Jesus Christ reconciled us and the world unto God all other elections are irrelevant. It is just as important to be reconciled unto God as it is to be elected. The words "Reconciled" and "Elected" have pretty much the same biblical meaning.

RECONCILE: To bring back to friendship after an estrangement.

ELECTION: To choose or select a person.

God has chosen all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ, Ephesians 1:4. You cannot be reconciled without being elected, nor can you be elected without being reconciled.

When you are reconciled unto God you are also elected. The Bible knows nothing about an individual election. God is no respecter of persons, Acts 10:34. Everything that God does, he does corporately. The scripture does not say that Jesus only atoned for the sins of "Some Certain Persons". What it says is that Jesus atoned for the sins of the world, 1 John 2:2 and reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

Calvinist need to come to realize that Jesus has dealt with the sins of humanity, so that now... "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13. Whosoever means all, anyone, everyone that shall call upon the Lord shall be saved.

Those Christ died for are reconciled to God while they are enemies and unbelievers Rom 5:10. That's not true of all men because many enemies of God are under His Wrath and Condemnation John 3:18,36 !

TulipBee
April 19th, 2016, 05:08 AM
The Bible clearly teaches that God chose a people for Himself before the foundation of the world. “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will” (Eph. 1:3-5). When the Bible discusses the predestination of those who are in Christ it speaks of the doctrine of election. The “elect” are those chosen by God. The verb “to elect” simply means to choose. The doctrine of election refers to “that eternal act of God whereby He, in His sovereign good pleasure, and on account of no foreseen merit in them, chooses a certain number of men to be the recipients of special grace and of eternal salvation.”28 In order to emphasize the fact that God’s election or choice of certain sinners to be saved is not based upon anything that the sinner himself does, Reformed theologians refer to election to eternal life as unconditional election.*-Brian Schwertley

chrysostom
April 19th, 2016, 05:20 AM
ELECTION: To choose or select a person.

you elect leaders
-there are just a few of them
-they are used by God to guide us

Nick M
April 19th, 2016, 06:56 AM
You can't maintain your integrity and preach this if you think that Christ did not die and resurrect for all.
He did die for all sin. He was raised because he was without sin. We that are baptized into him by the Holy Spirit for trusting in his work are baptized into his death. And with that, we are baptized into his resurrection. That is salvation. Moving from death to life.

Nick M
April 19th, 2016, 06:58 AM
Was Paul saved by calling on the name of the Lord? Is that what he was doing on the way to Damascus?

People have been calling on the name of the Lord since Enos (Genesis 4:26).

Paul was his enemy on the road to Damascus. However, he was reconciled as an enemy, and he was the first one, the prototype. He is the pattern for us today.

1 Timothy 1

15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am first. 16 However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life.

Robert Pate
April 19th, 2016, 07:28 AM
you elect leaders
-there are just a few of them
-they are used by God to guide us

There is no election without a purpose.

God chose Israel, prophets, Kings, apostles, for the sole purpose of bringing forth his Son and the Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

patrick jane
April 19th, 2016, 07:43 AM
He did die for all sin. He was raised because he was without sin. We that are baptized into him by the Holy Spirit for trusting in his work are baptized into his death. And with that, we are baptized into his resurrection. That is salvation. Moving from death to life.
Christ became sin

2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV -

1 John 2:2 KJV -

jamie
April 19th, 2016, 07:53 AM
Paul was his enemy on the road to Damascus. However, he was reconciled as an enemy, and he was the first one, the prototype. He is the pattern for us today.


So Paul didn't call on the name of the Lord and yet he was saved by grace.

chrysostom
April 19th, 2016, 08:07 AM
There is no election without a purpose.


yes, it is conditional

Nick M
April 19th, 2016, 05:53 PM
Paul didn't call on the name of the Lord.
Oh. Ok.

4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”

5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”

Did all of you sissified homos notice The Lord Jesus Christ was talking trash like Michael Jordan? He was mocking Paul at that time.

jamie
April 19th, 2016, 05:59 PM
So Paul didn't call on the name of the Lord, the Lord called on Paul and Paul answered as well he should have.

KingdomRose
April 19th, 2016, 07:10 PM
You are allowing your cultist religion to dictate what the Bible is saying.

The scripture says that God has reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ. We had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with that.

Our part is to receive what Jesus has done to reconcile us to God. When you accept the free gift of salvation provided by Jesus then you will be reconciled unto God.

Jesus is our reconciler, 2 Corinthians 5:18,19 and our justifier, Romans 3:26.

There is nothing that I have said that contradicts those scriptures that you cite. You always ADD stuff to the scriptures. None of them indicate that we should do NOTHING with our gift. If you are given a fishing rod, would you put it in the closet and never use it? How would the person who gave you that gift feel? What good is a gift if you don't do something with it?

Honestly, you ignore half of the Bible. Jesus says "love your enemies, DO what I have taught you, Let men see your good works, and if you endure to the end you will be saved." (Matthew 5:44; John 15:14; Matthew 5:16; Matthew 24:13)

Yet you call me a "cultist" for bringing attention to those verses.

patrick jane
April 19th, 2016, 07:24 PM
So Paul didn't call on the name of the Lord, the Lord called on Paul and Paul answered as well he should have.
Which ushered in the new deal of simply calling on the Lord, Paul was the first and the pattern.

KingdomRose
April 19th, 2016, 07:36 PM
The Bible clearly teaches that God chose a people for Himself before the foundation of the world. “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will” (Eph. 1:3-5). When the Bible discusses the predestination of those who are in Christ it speaks of the doctrine of election. The “elect” are those chosen by God. The verb “to elect” simply means to choose. The doctrine of election refers to “that eternal act of God whereby He, in His sovereign good pleasure, and on account of no foreseen merit in them, chooses a certain number of men to be the recipients of special grace and of eternal salvation.”28 In order to emphasize the fact that God’s election or choice of certain sinners to be saved is not based upon anything that the sinner himself does, Reformed theologians refer to election to eternal life as unconditional election.*-Brian Schwertley

You are misleading people when you teach that individuals were deemed righteous or damned before they were even born. That is sacriledge of the highest and most depraved order. Mr. Schwertley should be ashamed of himself.

To be correct, that view would have to harmonize with all of God's qualities, standards and purposes, as well as his righteous ways in dealing with his creation. It doesn't harmonize with his qualities of justice, honesty, impartiality, love, mercy, or kindness. Does it? The Apostle Peter writes: "The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some count slowness, but is PATIENT toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9, NASB)If God already knew and foreordained thousands of years in advance precisely which individuals would receive eternal salvation and which would receive eternal destruction, how meaningful would his "patience" be, and how genuine would his desire be that all attain to repentance? He would be playing games with his creations, and I don't think he is such a charlatan.

Ephesians 1:3-5, viewed in the proper light, means that God foreknew and foreordained that such a CLASS (but not the specific individuals forming it) would be produced. He prescribed the "pattern" to which all those in due time called to be members thereof would have to conform, all according to his plans and purposes.

A certain class....NOT individuals, have been foreordained.

TulipBee
April 20th, 2016, 05:52 AM
You are misleading people when you teach that individuals were deemed righteous or damned before they were even born. That is sacriledge of the highest and most depraved order. Mr. Schwertley should be ashamed of himself.

To be correct, that view would have to harmonize with all of God's qualities, standards and purposes, as well as his righteous ways in dealing with his creation. It doesn't harmonize with his qualities of justice, honesty, impartiality, love, mercy, or kindness. Does it? The Apostle Peter writes: "The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some count slowness, but is PATIENT toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9, NASB)If God already knew and foreordained thousands of years in advance precisely which individuals would receive eternal salvation and which would receive eternal destruction, how meaningful would his "patience" be, and how genuine would his desire be that all attain to repentance? He would be playing games with his creations, and I don't think he is such a charlatan.

Ephesians 1:3-5, viewed in the proper light, means that God foreknew and foreordained that such a CLASS (but not the specific individuals forming it) would be produced. He prescribed the "pattern" to which all those in due time called to be members thereof would have to conform, all according to his plans and purposes.

A certain class....NOT individuals, have been foreordained.
The Lord says to Jeremiah, ""Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." God has determined beforehand to affectionately set apart certain people, but not as a result of their decisions (Amos 3:2; Mt. 7:23; John 10:14; Eph 1:4,5). In fact the Bible teaches that God's grace in choosing us is free, based on His gracious will alone and not influenced by the innate capacities, spiritual desire (ROM 9:16, John 1:13), religious merit, or the foreseen faith of the people He sets apart as His own (Eph 1:5, 2:5,8). Rather, God acts in accordance with his highest purpose, which is His own glory. -John Hendryx

Everyone who is called by My name,
And whom I have created for My glory,
Whom I have formed, even whom I have made..." Isaiah 43:7

Robert Pate
April 22nd, 2016, 09:01 AM
The Lord says to Jeremiah, ""Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." God has determined beforehand to affectionately set apart certain people, but not as a result of their decisions (Amos 3:2; Mt. 7:23; John 10:14; Eph 1:4,5). In fact the Bible teaches that God's grace in choosing us is free, based on His gracious will alone and not influenced by the innate capacities, spiritual desire (ROM 9:16, John 1:13), religious merit, or the foreseen faith of the people He sets apart as His own (Eph 1:5, 2:5,8). Rather, God acts in accordance with his highest purpose, which is His own glory. -John Hendryx

Everyone who is called by My name,
And whom I have created for My glory,
Whom I have formed, even whom I have made..." Isaiah 43:7


There is no predestination without a purpose.

God chose Israel, Kings, prophets, apostles, for the sole purpose of making known to the world the Gospel of his Son Jesus Christ.

We now enter God's Kingdom through faith in God's Son Jesus Christ.

No one is predestinated. Salvation is by grace through faith.

TulipBee
April 22nd, 2016, 10:18 AM
There is no predestination without a purpose.

God chose Israel, Kings, prophets, apostles, for the sole purpose of making known to the world the Gospel of his Son Jesus Christ.

We now enter God's Kingdom through faith in God's Son Jesus Christ.

No one is predestinated. Salvation is by grace through faith.
God still has a purpose. Why you lie on purpose beats us. Oh well, good day

Robert Pate
April 22nd, 2016, 04:37 PM
There is nothing that I have said that contradicts those scriptures that you cite. You always ADD stuff to the scriptures. None of them indicate that we should do NOTHING with our gift. If you are given a fishing rod, would you put it in the closet and never use it? How would the person who gave you that gift feel? What good is a gift if you don't do something with it?

Honestly, you ignore half of the Bible. Jesus says "love your enemies, DO what I have taught you, Let men see your good works, and if you endure to the end you will be saved." (Matthew 5:44; John 15:14; Matthew 5:16; Matthew 24:13)

Yet you call me a "cultist" for bringing attention to those verses.

All who come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him receive the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit working in the life of the believer that produces the Christian life, Ephesians 2:10. It is all of God.

Robert Pate
April 22nd, 2016, 04:39 PM
God still has a purpose. Why you lie on purpose beats us. Oh well, good day

God's will for your life is that you believe upon his Son Jesus Christ.

TulipBee
April 22nd, 2016, 10:59 PM
God's will for your life is that you believe upon his Son Jesus Christ.
You bet I believe jesus but you don't want me too.

Robert Pate
April 23rd, 2016, 08:04 AM
You bet I believe jesus but you don't want me too.


You believe in John Calvin and Jesus. I don't think that Jesus is going to share his Kingdom with John Calvin.

TulipBee
April 23rd, 2016, 10:11 AM
You believe in John Calvin and Jesus. I don't think that Jesus is going to share his Kingdom with John Calvin.
And you want me to believe you?

Crucible
April 23rd, 2016, 10:17 AM
Exhibit A:

ELECTION: To choose or select a person.

God has chosen all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ

The entire basis of this thread is on a notion that everybody is the elect.

Exhibit B:

You cannot be reconciled without being elected

So RP basically just affirmed the Reformed tradition.

:mock: Anti-Calvinists

dodge
April 23rd, 2016, 10:24 AM
And you want me to believe you?

Why not just believe scripture ?

Rom 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

10:14

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Rom 10:15
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Rom 10:16
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Rom 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Robert Pate
April 23rd, 2016, 01:01 PM
Exhibit A:


The entire basis of this thread is on a notion that everybody is the elect.

Exhibit B:


So RP basically just affirmed the Reformed tradition.

:mock: Anti-Calvinists


God has elected to provide salvation for the whole world by his Son Jesus Christ, 1 John 4:14,

So that, "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Nanja
April 23rd, 2016, 03:55 PM
God has elected to provide salvation for the whole world by his Son Jesus Christ, 1 John 4:14,



The World that Salvation was provided for, according to the scriptures, is The World that God Loved John 3:16, His Elect 1 Pet. 1:2; or The Church Eph. 5:25; or The Sheep John 10:11,15; or Israel Is. 45:17.



But God has NOT elected these to salvation, but has according to His Purpose, created them specifically to be destroyed Rom. 9:22; 2 Pet. 2:12; to be condemned Jude 1:4; Mat. 25:41; reserved to the Day of Judgment Job 21:30!


Whatever God desires, that he does:

Job 23:13-14
13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.


How can the created thing have the audacity to question God about what He does with His Creation?

Rom. 9:20
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


God's Will is Sovereign over all His Creation, and He does with it as He Pleases:


Dan. 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?




"Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.


You have been shown many times how to interpret that scripture comparing it to other scriptures 1 Cor. 2:13, but because your mind is darkened Eph. 4:18 you're prevented from understanding it.


Before a person can call upon the Lord in a way that pleases God, they must first be made Spiritually Alive / Born Again / Quickened by the Holy Spirit, because those who are carnal / in the flesh cannot please God by anything they do Rom. 8:8!


Ps. 80:18b
quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.


So those Christ died for shall call upon Him after being Quickened by the Power of the Holy Spirit given them in New Birth!

~~~~~

Bright Raven
April 23rd, 2016, 04:16 PM
So those Christ died for shall call upon Him after being Quickened by the Power of the Holy Spirit given them in New Birth!
Scripture?

TulipBee
April 23rd, 2016, 05:07 PM
Why not just believe scripture ?

Rom 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

10:14

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Rom 10:15
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

Rom 10:16
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Rom 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Don't deny them but pate lies so it would look like we deny them. It's called scam

Nanja
April 23rd, 2016, 05:25 PM
Scripture?


It's there Ps. 80:18.

You see, (?) it's all God's Work which results in our becoming Saved,
not by our own work of calling on Him.

When God gives His Elect Sons New Birth they shall call on Him!

Praise the Lord!

~~~~~

Bright Raven
April 23rd, 2016, 05:33 PM
It's there Ps. 80:18.

You see, (?) it's all God's Work which results in our becoming Saved,
not by our own work of calling on Him.

When God gives His Elect Sons New Birth they shall call on Him!

Praise the Lord!

~~~~~
And where does it say that these are the elect of God and who that elect is? I think this passage is talking about Israel.

Nanja
April 23rd, 2016, 05:44 PM
And where does it say that these are the elect of God and who that elect is? I think this passage is talking about Israel.


All the Elect of God consist of the Israel of God which were Promised Salvation:

Is. 45:17
But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

Titus 1:1-2
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began (2 Tim. 1:9).

~~~~~

steko
April 23rd, 2016, 05:47 PM
And where does it say that these are the elect of God and who that elect is? I think this passage is talking about Israel.

Indeed it is. Most references in the OT to GOD's elect are either to Israel or to Israel's Messiah.


Deu 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.


chosen- bachar, LXX-eklektos

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Robert Pate
April 25th, 2016, 08:22 AM
The World that Salvation was provided for, according to the scriptures, is The World that God Loved John 3:16, His Elect 1 Pet. 1:2; or The Church Eph. 5:25; or The Sheep John 10:11,15; or Israel Is. 45:17.



But God has NOT elected these to salvation, but has according to His Purpose, created them specifically to be destroyed Rom. 9:22; 2 Pet. 2:12; to be condemned Jude 1:4; Mat. 25:41; reserved to the Day of Judgment Job 21:30!


Whatever God desires, that he does:

Job 23:13-14
13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.


How can the created thing have the audacity to question God about what He does with His Creation?

Rom. 9:20
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?


God's Will is Sovereign over all His Creation, and He does with it as He Pleases:


Dan. 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?






You have been shown many times how to interpret that scripture comparing it to other scriptures 1 Cor. 2:13, but because your mind is darkened Eph. 4:18 you're prevented from understanding it.


Before a person can call upon the Lord in a way that pleases God, they must first be made Spiritually Alive / Born Again / Quickened by the Holy Spirit, because those who are carnal / in the flesh cannot please God by anything they do Rom. 8:8!


Ps. 80:18b
quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.


So those Christ died for shall call upon Him after being Quickened by the Power of the Holy Spirit given them in New Birth!

~~~~~


On the day of Pentecost 8,000 Jews were quickened by the Holy Spirit because they heard and believed the Gospel.

"So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17. Which is the Gospel.

Nanja
April 25th, 2016, 02:21 PM
On the day of Pentecost 8,000 Jews were quickened by the Holy Spirit because they heard and believed the Gospel.

"So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17. Which is the Gospel.


Wrong order. They weren't quickened because they heard and believed the Gospel,

but they heard and believed the Gospel because they were quickened!


A person who is spiritually dead cannot hear /perceive the Gospel which is Spiritual.

Hearing comes by having Life!


So before an Elect Child of God can Hear the Gospel which is God's Word,
he/she shall be quickened, be Born of God John 3:7, resulting in their hearing the Gospel of their Salvation Eph. 1:13 .


But the rest, the non-elect, will never hear / perceive the Gospel in a savingly way,
because their father is not God, but is the devil.


John 8:43-47
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

~~~~~

Crucible
April 25th, 2016, 02:25 PM
"What the heart loves, the will chooses, and the mind justifies."

Therefore, your free will is sorry and not to be relied upon.

Crucible
April 25th, 2016, 02:31 PM
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved."

I can spin it a million ways all day how much the non-Reformed fail at discerning the elect.

Robert Pate
April 25th, 2016, 05:07 PM
Wrong order. They weren't quickened because they heard and believed the Gospel,

but they heard and believed the Gospel because they were quickened!


A person who is spiritually dead cannot hear /perceive the Gospel which is Spiritual.

Hearing comes by having Life!


So before an Elect Child of God can Hear the Gospel which is God's Word,
he/she shall be quickened, be Born of God John 3:7, resulting in their hearing the Gospel of their Salvation Eph. 1:13 .


But the rest, the non-elect, will never hear / perceive the Gospel in a savingly way,
because their father is not God, but is the devil.


John 8:43-47
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

~~~~~


Your doctrine that you are quickened before you can hear is not according to the Bible. They hear and then they believe and are born again.

It is the preaching of the Gospel that brings people to Christ.

Paul said, "The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation" Romans 1:16.

Repent and teach the truth or you are doomed.

Nanja
April 25th, 2016, 05:25 PM
Your doctrine that you are quickened before you can hear is not according to the Bible. They hear and then they believe and are born again.

It is the preaching of the Gospel that brings people to Christ.

Paul said, "The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation" Romans 1:16.

Repent and teach the truth or you are doomed.


You preach a distortion of the Truth, a false gospel of works;
things a person does to get himself saved Eph. 2:8-9; Is. 64:6!

Accursed you are Gal.1:8!

~~~~~

beloved57
April 27th, 2016, 09:38 PM
Your doctrine that you are quickened before you can hear is not according to the Bible. They hear and then they believe and are born again.

It is the preaching of the Gospel that brings people to Christ.

Paul said, "The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation" Romans 1:16.

Repent and teach the truth or you are doomed.
Since when did you believe the Gospel ?

You teach that salvation depends on man's work, his will.

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Robert Pate
April 28th, 2016, 12:45 PM
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that people are first quickened before they believe.

The order of salvation is that they hear first and then they believe and then they receive the Holy Spirit.

"So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17.

No one is quickened first.

Nanja
April 28th, 2016, 03:55 PM
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that people are first quickened before they believe.

The order of salvation is that they hear first and then they believe and then they receive the Holy Spirit.

"So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17.

No one is quickened first.



You lie against, and distort the Truths of scripture all the time just like your father John 8:44.



Quickened means to be made Spiritually Alive, Born of God.

Believing or Faith in Christ is a gift and fruit of the Holy Spirit given in New Birth / when one is Quickened.


No one has the ability to do anything that pleases God while carnal / in the flesh.

Rom. 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


A person cannot even call upon the name of the Lord Rom. 10:13 in a way that pleases God unless they are quickened.

Ps. 80:17-18
17 Let thy hand be upon the man of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself.
18 So will not we go back from thee: quicken us, and we will call upon thy name.

So those Christ died for shall call upon Him as a result of their being made Spiritually Alive.



Rom 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


But unless one is quickened / Born of God, Faith will not come because they are spiritually dead, so they can't hear God's Word which is Spiritual.


John 8:43, 47
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

~~~~~

dodge
April 28th, 2016, 04:02 PM
The first and most obvious to be elected was Jesus Christ. God chose Jesus Christ to be the savior of the world, 1 John 4:14. It was Jesus Christ that reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. If Jesus Christ reconciled us and the world unto God all other elections are irrelevant. It is just as important to be reconciled unto God as it is to be elected. The words "Reconciled" and "Elected" have pretty much the same biblical meaning.

RECONCILE: To bring back to friendship after an estrangement.

ELECTION: To choose or select a person.

God has chosen all of humanity in his Son Jesus Christ, Ephesians 1:4. You cannot be reconciled without being elected, nor can you be elected without being reconciled.

When you are reconciled unto God you are also elected. The Bible knows nothing about an individual election. God is no respecter of persons, Acts 10:34. Everything that God does, he does corporately. The scripture does not say that Jesus only atoned for the sins of "Some Certain Persons". What it says is that Jesus atoned for the sins of the world, 1 John 2:2 and reconciled us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

Calvinist need to come to realize that Jesus has dealt with the sins of humanity, so that now... "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13. Whosoever means all, anyone, everyone that shall call upon the Lord shall be saved.



edit

Crucible
April 28th, 2016, 04:32 PM
:yawn:
They done gone and made up their own version of 'elect' which the Bible literally states otherwise of.

beloved57
April 28th, 2016, 08:51 PM
Your doctrine that you are quickened before you can hear is not according to the Bible. They hear and then they believe and are born again.

It is the preaching of the Gospel that brings people to Christ.

Paul said, "The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation" Romans 1:16.

Repent and teach the truth or you are doomed.
One must be of God to hear God's word Jn 8:47!

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Grosnick Marowbe
April 28th, 2016, 11:53 PM
One must be of God to hear God's word Jn 8:47!

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B57, you are on the fringe of Calvinism. The "sane Calvinists" keep their distance from you and those who are not of the Calvinist persuasion think you're some kind of a crazy Loon. Such is your religious life. You don't fit in anywhere.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 28th, 2016, 11:55 PM
[COLOR="#B22222"]You lie against, and distort the Truths of scripture all the time just like your father John 8:44.


You're just like B57. Just another crazy Loon.

Crucible
April 29th, 2016, 12:11 AM
B57, you are on the fringe of Calvinism. The "sane Calvinists" keep their distance from you and those who are not of the Calvinist persuasion think you're some kind of a crazy Loon. Such is your religious life. You don't fit in anywhere.

Double predestination is not that big of a deal, it is simply a minor deviating from orthodox Calvinism. You seem to be laboring under the delusion that we teach two polar things and that simply isn't true- B57 just goes a different way with Original sin.

Your 'divide and conquer' thing fails with the Reformed, hombre. The doctrines are too rigid for your little mallet :rolleyes:

Also
The predestination and election of Calvinism i is plain as day in the scriptures. We have been over this again and again- it is incontrovertible.

No proper theologian would say otherwise either. You all are against Calvinism for incorrect reasons.

Robert Pate
April 29th, 2016, 07:17 AM
Double predestination is not that big of a deal, it is simply a minor deviating from orthodox Calvinism. You seem to be laboring under the delusion that we teach two polar things and that simply isn't true- B57 just goes a different way with Original sin.

Your 'divide and conquer' thing fails with the Reformed, hombre. The doctrines are too rigid for your little mallet :rolleyes:

Also
The predestination and election of Calvinism i is plain as day in the scriptures. We have been over this again and again- it is incontrovertible.

No proper theologian would say otherwise either. You all are against Calvinism for incorrect reasons.


If God predestinated anyone to salvation or to hell that would make him unjust.

To believe that God predestinates people to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam is not teachable or believable. it is NOT possible to have saving faith in the unjust God of Calvinism.

Crucible
April 29th, 2016, 09:42 AM
If God predestinated anyone to salvation or to hell that would make him unjust.

As opposed to merely 'foreknowing', and yet of His own volition creating anyway.

You never really thought so far as to take into consideration your split hair.

chrysostom
April 29th, 2016, 09:48 AM
As opposed to merely 'foreknowing', and yet of His own volition creating anyway.

you have to think this through
-would God knowingly create a free will that would reject Him?
-would it then be a free will?
-would there be any need for what we are experiencing now?
-try to make sense of the world we live in
-try to make sense

Ben Masada
April 29th, 2016, 01:41 PM
Nowhere in the Bible does it say that people are first quickened before they believe.

The order of salvation is that they hear first and then they believe and then they receive the Holy Spirit.

"So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17.[/B]

No one is quickened first.

Nowhere in the Bible! According to Prophet Isaiah, first, we must repent and then return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isa. 1:18,19) This is in the Tanach. In the NT, we have Jesus warning us to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31)Regardless of how much Christians prefer the opinion of Paul as the Law
is concerned.

KingdomRose
April 29th, 2016, 07:20 PM
All who come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him receive the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit working in the life of the believer that produces the Christian life, Ephesians 2:10. It is all of God.

The Holy Spirit works in different ways. Did you ever hear of it "moving over the surface of the waters" when God and His Son were getting ready to create life on this planet? (Genesis 1:2) So obviously it is used by God to do a variety of things. Therefore, how it acts with the chosen ones is different than how it acts with those who will live on Earth forever. Perhaps you should do a bit more studying. Just a suggestion!:e4e:

KingdomRose
April 29th, 2016, 07:31 PM
It's there Ps. 80:18.

You see, (?) it's all God's Work which results in our becoming Saved,
not by our own work of calling on Him.

When God gives His Elect Sons New Birth they shall call on Him!

Praise the Lord!

~~~~~

They have to be searching for God before He ever draws them. "SEEK ME that you may live," says Jehovah, the Most High. (Amos 5:4, NASB)

He also says: "YOU WILL SEEK ME and find me when you SEARCH FOR ME WITH ALL YOUR HEART." (Jeremiah 29:13, NASB)

This truth is reiterated by Jesus: "SEEK and you will find." (Luke 11:9, NASB)


It's up to each of us to seek God and His truth.

Robert Pate
April 29th, 2016, 07:51 PM
The Holy Spirit works in different ways. Did you ever hear of it "moving over the surface of the waters" when God and His Son were getting ready to create life on this planet? (Genesis 1:2) So obviously it is used by God to do a variety of things. Therefore, how it acts with the chosen ones is different than how it acts with those who will live on Earth forever. Perhaps you should do a bit more studying. Just a suggestion!:e4e:


On the day of Pentecost there was a new manifestation of the Holy Spirit that had never occurred before.

With the coming of the Gospel into the world as the birth of the New Testament church, men became impowered by the Holy Spirit like never before. The lowly disciples became powerful preachers of the Gospel, Acts 4:21.

8,000 Jews were converted to Christ because of the preaching of the Gospel, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4. Nothing like this had ever happened before. Nor has anything like that happened since.

beloved57
April 30th, 2016, 03:53 AM
If God predestinated anyone to salvation or to hell that would make him unjust.

To believe that God predestinates people to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam is not teachable or believable. it is NOT possible to have saving faith in the unjust God of Calvinism.
You hate and speak evil of the True God.

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Nanja
April 30th, 2016, 04:52 AM
They have to be searching for God before He ever draws them. "SEEK ME that you may live," says Jehovah, the Most High. (Amos 5:4, NASB)

He also says: "YOU WILL SEEK ME and find me when you SEARCH FOR ME WITH ALL YOUR HEART." (Jeremiah 29:13, NASB)

This truth is reiterated by Jesus: "SEEK and you will find." (Luke 11:9, NASB)


It's up to each of us to seek God and His truth.


Rom. 3:11
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


Man by nature can only seek the god of their own understanding, and that's not GOD.


Ps. 24:4-6
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
6 This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.

A Pure Heart, a New Heart, is given by God in New Birth Ezek. 36:26.

~~~~~

beloved57
April 30th, 2016, 06:04 AM
Rom. 3:11
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


Man by nature can only seek the god of their own understanding, and that's not GOD.


Ps. 24:4-6
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
6 This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.

A Pure Heart, a New Heart, is given by God in New Birth Ezek. 36:26.

~~~~~
Yes men by nature don't understand or seek out or after the True God.

By nature no doubt we seek out or after a god, but it is only the god of our darkened and deceived understanding.

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beloved57
April 30th, 2016, 06:08 AM
Rom. 3:11
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.


Man by nature can only seek the god of their own understanding, and that's not GOD.


Ps. 24:4-6
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
6 This is the generation of them that seek him, that seek thy face, O Jacob. Selah.

A Pure Heart, a New Heart, is given by God in New Birth Ezek. 36:26.

~~~~~
It's only the chosen seed of Jacob that God calls to seek Him not in vain Isa 45:19!

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Grosnick Marowbe
April 30th, 2016, 07:33 AM
It's only the chosen seed of Jacob that God calls to seek Him not in vain Isa 45:19!

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If Calvinism were true, and it's not, then, you and Nanja would be two of the worst examples to spread that so-called truth.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 30th, 2016, 07:34 AM
B57 and Nanja are like two false doctrine spreading Siamese twins.

Nanja
April 30th, 2016, 07:39 AM
It's only the chosen seed of Jacob that God calls to seek Him not in vain Isa 45:19!

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Yes, and the seed of Jacob is also spoken of here:

Acts 17:27
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

~~~~~

Grosnick Marowbe
April 30th, 2016, 07:41 AM
Yes, and the seed of Jacob is also spoken of here:

Acts 17:27
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

~~~~~

You're on the wrong path. Truth leads to the Grace Gospel. (Paul's Gospel)

Grosnick Marowbe
April 30th, 2016, 07:42 AM
False doctrine leads to the doorstep of the dead tyrant John Calvin and his ilk.

Nanja
April 30th, 2016, 07:43 AM
You're on the wrong path. Truth leads to the Grace Gospel. (Paul's Gospel)

John 8:44

~~~~~

beloved57
April 30th, 2016, 07:59 AM
Yes, and the seed of Jacob is also spoken of here:

Acts 17:27
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

~~~~~
You right!

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Nanja
April 30th, 2016, 08:02 AM
You right!

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:thumb:

~~~~

Robert Pate
April 30th, 2016, 09:10 AM
:thumb:

~~~~

Your Calvinist God is an unjust, unmerciful tyrant that condemns innocent people to hell for no reason than they were born after Adam, which is not their fault.

It is not possible to have saving faith in the God of Calvinism. So where does that leave you?

beloved57
April 30th, 2016, 09:59 AM
Your Calvinist God is an unjust, unmerciful tyrant that condemns innocent people to hell for no reason than they were born after Adam, which is not their fault.

It is not possible to have saving faith in the God of Calvinism. So where does that leave you?
You hate the True God.

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Ben Masada
April 30th, 2016, 11:05 AM
"A man is not saved because he believes in Christ, he believes in Christ because he is saved."

I can spin it a million ways all day how much the non-Reformed fail at discerning the elect.

Well, this is not what Prophet Isaiah and Jesus said. Starting with Isaiah, he implied that a man is saved if he sets things right with God so that his sins, from scarlet red become as white as snow by repentance and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isa. 1:18,19) As Jesus was concerned, he said that a man must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) No mention of the need to believe in the Christ of Paul which from only 2000 years ago became part of the gospel of Paul in replacement of the gospel of Jesus which is the Tanach.

dodge
April 30th, 2016, 11:42 AM
Well, this is not what Prophet Isaiah and Jesus said. Starting with Isaiah, he implied that a man is saved if he sets things right with God so that his sins, from scarlet red become as white as snow by repentance and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isa. 1:18,19) As Jesus was concerned, he said that a man must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) No mention of the need to believe in the Christ of Paul which from only 2000 years ago became part of the gospel of Paul in replacement of the gospel of Jesus which is the Tanach.

If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets neither will they be persuaded by what ?

though one rise from the dead.’

Jhn 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Gal 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Jhn 1:17
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Ben Masada
April 30th, 2016, 01:21 PM
[quote)If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets neither will they be persuaded by what?

By the supposition that "though" one rose from the dead. Jesus was a Jew and, being so, he would not contradict the Tanach which teaches against bodily resurrection, if you read 2 Sam. 12:23; Isa. 26:14 and Job 7:9.


though one rise from the dead.’

That's the same as "though" one COULD rise from the dead.


Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

That's not a Jewish way to speak, unless a Jew is speaking as part of the People aka the collective.


Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

That's from the gospel of Paul, not of Jesus which was the Tanach. You must recall that this text is from Luke a Hellenist daily companion of Paul.


Jhn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

This text is anti-Jewish because it implies that the Law is a lie and that Jesus was a fool for presenting the Law as the only solution to escape hell-fire. (Luke 16:29-31)

beloved57
April 30th, 2016, 01:34 PM
Well, this is not what Prophet Isaiah and Jesus said. Starting with Isaiah, he implied that a man is saved if he sets things right with God so that his sins, from scarlet red become as white as snow by repentance and return to the obedience of God's Law. (Isa. 1:18,19) As Jesus was concerned, he said that a man must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) No mention of the need to believe in the Christ of Paul which from only 2000 years ago became part of the gospel of Paul in replacement of the gospel of Jesus which is the Tanach.
What about golden calf worship?

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beloved57
April 30th, 2016, 01:35 PM
By the supposition that "though" one rose from the dead. Jesus was a Jew and, being so, he would not contradict the Tanach which teaches against bodily resurrection, if you read 2 Sam. 12:23; Isa. 26:14 and Job 7:9.



That's the same as "though" one COULD rise from the dead.



That's not a Jewish way to speak, unless a Jew is speaking as part of the People aka the collective.



That's from the gospel of Paul, not of Jesus which was the Tanach. You must recall that this text is from Luke a Hellenist daily companion of Paul.



This text is anti-Jewish because it implies that the Law is a lie and that Jesus was a fool for presenting the Law as the only solution to escape hell-fire. (Luke 16:29-31)
What people are guilty of golden calf worship?

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Robert Pate
May 1st, 2016, 08:51 AM
What people are guilty of golden calf worship?

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What about John Calvin worship?

beloved57
May 1st, 2016, 10:11 AM
What about John Calvin worship?
You are obsessed with a man, john calvin. You worship john calvin since you mention him more than any one I know of.

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Robert Pate
May 1st, 2016, 10:17 AM
You are obsessed with a man, john calvin. You worship john calvin since you mention him more than any one I know of.

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He is your God and the Canons of Dort are his holy word.

beloved57
May 1st, 2016, 10:19 AM
He is your God and the Canons of Dort are his holy word.
You are obsessed with the canons of dort also .

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Robert Pate
May 1st, 2016, 10:23 AM
You are obsessed with the canons of dort also .

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I think it is the other way around.

I am not the one pushing Calvinism.

You are the one saying that Calvinism is the Gospel.

beloved57
May 1st, 2016, 10:27 AM
I think it is the other way around.

I am not the one pushing Calvinism.

You are the one saying that Calvinism is the Gospel.
You are obsessed with calvin and canons of dort, and salvation by works.

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Ben Masada
May 1st, 2016, 11:35 AM
What people are guilty of golden calf worship?

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The Gentiles that took advantage of the Exodus in Egypt to get rid of their captivity.

beloved57
May 1st, 2016, 11:36 AM
The Gentiles that took advantage of the Exodus in Egypt to get rid of their captivity.
What people are guilty of golden calf worship?

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Ben Masada
May 1st, 2016, 11:56 AM
What people are guilty of golden calf worship?

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Read post number 108.

beloved57
May 1st, 2016, 11:59 AM
Read post number 108.
I read it. Now what people are guilty of golden calf worship ?

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Ben Masada
May 1st, 2016, 11:59 AM
What people are guilty of golden calf worship?

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Read post number 108.

beloved57
May 1st, 2016, 12:00 PM
Read post number 108.
Read post 111

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Robert Pate
May 1st, 2016, 01:33 PM
You are obsessed with calvin and canons of dort, and salvation by works.

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I have bad news for you. You are not one of the elect.

The elect are those that have embraced Christ and his Gospel as their only means of salvation.

beloved57
May 1st, 2016, 02:24 PM
I have bad news for you. You are not one of the elect.

The elect are those that have embraced Christ and his Gospel as their only means of salvation.
You are consumed with what men say and do.

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Robert Pate
May 1st, 2016, 02:59 PM
You are consumed with what men say and do.

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You are the one that believes in men. You think that John Calvin is an apostle. I think that he is the devils apostle.

beloved57
May 1st, 2016, 04:38 PM
You are the one that believes in men. You think that John Calvin is an apostle. I think that he is the devils apostle.
You talk about what men say and do all the time. You teach salvation by works, by what a person does.

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flintstoned
May 1st, 2016, 05:11 PM
Who are the elect?

The elect are those that have been reconciled unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. And who has been reconciled unto God? ALL OF HUMANITY or the world.

"God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself" 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Wake up Calvinist! Why is it you cannot hear and believe the scriptures?

As far as God is concerned all of your sins are dead and buried and you have a free pass into heaven. To him that does nothing more than call on the name of the Lord shall be saved, Romans 10:13.

How do you jump from "God was in Christ reconcilING the world unto himself" to ALL OF HUMANITY has been reconciled?

Only (true) believers (the elect) have been reconciled to God. Unbelievers are not reconciled to God.

Nanja
May 1st, 2016, 05:21 PM
You are the one that believes in men. You think that John Calvin is an apostle. I think that he is the devils apostle.


In the End, your eternal destiny will have no bearing what you thought about Calvin, but it's determined upon whether or not you were one who was Chosen In Union with Christ before the foundation of the world Eph. 1:4-11!

2 Tim. 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

Thus saith the Word of the Lord!


~~~~~

flintstoned
May 1st, 2016, 05:26 PM
You are allowing your cultist religion to dictate what the Bible is saying.

The scripture says that God has reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ. We had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with that.

Our part is to receive what Jesus has done to reconcile us to God. When you accept the free gift of salvation provided by Jesus then you will be reconciled unto God.

Jesus is our reconciler, 2 Corinthians 5:18,19 and our justifier, Romans 3:26.

Where does it state in scripture that God has already reconciled the world (which you seem to define as every individual/all people)to himself?

Nanja
May 1st, 2016, 05:37 PM
Where does it state in scripture that God has already reconciled the world (which you seem to define as every individual/all people)to himself?


It doesn't.

God's Word says that many were already condemned and under the wrath of God John 3:18, 36!

~~~~~

Bright Raven
May 1st, 2016, 09:56 PM
It doesn't.

God's Word says that many were already condemned and under the wrath of God John 3:18, 36!

~~~~~Where do those scriptures say that?

Nanja
May 2nd, 2016, 05:05 AM
Nanja
God's Word says that many were already condemned and under the wrath of God John 3:18, 36!
~~~~~




Where do those scriptures say that?


Those verses apply to the goats, the portion of humanity whose sins Christ did not die for, that's why they can't believe because they were condemned already for their sins, and the wages of sin is death Rom. 6:23. They go into the second death Rev. 21:8 because they were always under the wrath of God.


Mat. 25:31
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

beloved57
May 2nd, 2016, 05:17 AM
nanja


Those verses apply to the goats, the portion of humanity whose sins Christ did not die for, that's why they can't believe because they were condemned already for their sins, and the wages of sin is death Rom. 6:23 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rom.%206.23).

Correct, thats why they cant believe, because they are under condemnation for their sins. They were not of the Sheep Christ died for Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

You and i have explained this many times over the years, folk are without excuse !

beloved57
May 2nd, 2016, 05:19 AM
In the End, your eternal destiny will have no bearing what you thought about Calvin, but it's determined upon whether or not you were one who was Chosen In Union with Christ before the foundation of the world Eph. 1:4-11!

2 Tim. 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

Thus saith the Word of the Lord!


~~~~~

pate is consumed with what calvin did or said. He spends at least 75% of his post energy on calvin.

Nanja
May 2nd, 2016, 05:30 AM
nanja



Correct, thats why they cant believe, because they are under condemnation for their sins. They were not of the Sheep Christ died for Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

You and i have explained this many times over the years, folk are without excuse !


Right, and they are in denial of those verses because they prove the world that Christ died for was the world of His Sheep John 10:11, 15.

~~~~~

Nanja
May 2nd, 2016, 05:40 AM
pate is consumed with what calvin did or said. He spends at least 75% of his post energy on calvin.


Because he's blinded to the Truth of the scriptures, pointing to Calvin is just a diversion tactic.

It's so obvious that's all he's got!

~~~~~

beloved57
May 2nd, 2016, 05:47 AM
Right, and they are in denial of those verses because they prove the world that Christ died for was the world of His Sheep John 10:11, 15.

~~~~~

Correct !

beloved57
May 2nd, 2016, 06:21 AM
Because he's blinded to the Truth of the scriptures, pointing to Calvin is just a diversion tactic.

It's so obvious that's all he's got!

~~~~~
.Agreed

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Robert Pate
May 3rd, 2016, 01:08 PM
Right, and they are in denial of those verses because they prove the world that Christ died for was the world of His Sheep John 10:11, 15.

~~~~~

According to the Bible Christ died for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 4:14. Not just "Some Certain Persons" but for all of humanity, Hebrews 2:9.

There is no scripture that says Christ only died for some and not all.

Jesus has reconciled the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Nanja
May 3rd, 2016, 02:15 PM
According to the Bible Christ died for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 4:14. Not just "Some Certain Persons" but for all of humanity, Hebrews 2:9.

There is no scripture that says Christ only died for some and not all.

Jesus has reconciled the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.


Those scriptures have been explained to you many times but to no avail because you are spiritually blind.

~~~~~

Bright Raven
May 3rd, 2016, 02:25 PM
Those scriptures have been explained to you many times but to no avail because you are spiritually blind.

~~~~~

Why not reply to the three scriptures that Robert gave you. My guess is that you can"t.

Nang
May 3rd, 2016, 02:54 PM
According to the Bible Christ died for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 4:14.

Not what the verse says. This verse says nothing about death or sins. It names The Son as Savior of the world, which is defined as the creation; not necessarily every person ever born into the creation.


Not just "Some Certain Persons" but for all of humanity, Hebrews 2:9.

Not what the verse says. "Tasting death" to conquer over death, is not the same as a universal redemption.


There is no scripture that says Christ only died for some and not all.

Scripture does say Christ gives life "to whom He wills." John 5:21



Jesus has reconciled the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Again, the "world" that God loves and reconciles to Himself, is not the "world system" of ungodly humanity, but His creation. Believers are warned not to identify with the ungodly world system, which will "pass away." I John 2:15-17

Only those souls reconciled to the Father through the redemption of the Son will escape the end of the ungodly "world system "

Interpreting every mention of the world as a universal humanity, is just plain wrong.

Robert Pate
May 3rd, 2016, 03:34 PM
Not what the verse says. This verse says nothing about death or sins. It names The Son as Savior of the world, which is defined as the creation; not necessarily every person ever born into the creation.



Not what the verse says. "Tasting death" to conquer over death, is not the same as a universal redemption.



Scripture does say Christ gives life "to whom He wills." John 5:21




Again, the "world" that God loves and reconciles to Himself, is not the "world system" of ungodly humanity, but His creation. Believers are warned not to identify with the ungodly world system, which will "pass away." I John 2:15-17

Only those souls reconciled to the Father through the redemption of the Son will escape the end of the ungodly "world system "

Interpreting every mention of the world as a universal humanity, is just plain wrong.


You are in serious conflict with God's word. You might as well throw your Bible in the trash because you don't believe any of it. You want to believe that God is devisive and unjust. You do not have saving faith. It is not possible to have faith in your God.

Nang
May 3rd, 2016, 03:40 PM
You want to believe that God is devisive and unjust.

If God had not saved even a single sinner, He would still be just.


It is not possible to have faith in your God.

Only when a soul is quickened to life in Christ, is it possible for sinners to manifest saving faith. And that miracle is determined by the righteous will of God. John 5:21

Bright Raven
May 3rd, 2016, 03:41 PM
Not what the verse says. This verse says nothing about death or sins. It names The Son as Savior of the world, which is defined as the creation; not necessarily every person ever born into the creation.



Not what the verse says. "Tasting death" to conquer over death, is not the same as a universal redemption.



Scripture does say Christ gives life "to whom He wills." John 5:21




Again, the "world" that God loves and reconciles to Himself, is not the "world system" of ungodly humanity, but His creation. Believers are warned not to identify with the ungodly world system, which will "pass away." I John 2:15-17

Only those souls reconciled to the Father through the redemption of the Son will escape the end of the ungodly "world system "

Interpreting every mention of the world as a universal humanity, is just plain wrong.

Why is it wrong to say that Christ has provided a way for all men. Agreed that all men will not accept the offer but the offer has still been made.

Nang
May 3rd, 2016, 04:34 PM
Why is it wrong to say that Christ has provided a way for all men. Agreed that all men will not accept the offer but the offer has still been made.

It is wrong be cause a promise is not an offer. A Godly promise, made according to Covenant, will be kept, performed, and guaranteed sure, by God.

An offer is not binding and without legal power.

A Covenant made by God, in the name of God, means forgiveness is certain because it is the will of God.

An offer made to man, of salvation contingent upon man accepting the offer, means salvation is only a possibility, dependent upon the will of sinners.

Preaching a gospel centered upon the willful choice of mortal sinners, does not compare to the Gospel preached promising the will of Sovereign God be done . . on earth as it is in heaven.

beloved57
May 3rd, 2016, 04:41 PM
You are in serious conflict with God's word. You might as well throw your Bible in the trash because you don't believe any of it. You want to believe that God is devisive and unjust. You do not have saving faith. It is not possible to have faith in your God.

You don't believe the scripture. You blaspheme God with your every breath.

Crucible
May 3rd, 2016, 04:44 PM
You are in serious conflict with God's word. You might as well throw your Bible in the trash because you don't believe any of it. You want to believe that God is devisive and unjust. You do not have saving faith. It is not possible to have faith in your God.

Tulip is so intrinsic in the Scriptures, from Genesis to Revelation, that I suppose you have to practice your heresy :rolleyes:

Calvinism is that stuff, buddy. Real Christianity.
In a big way, you all are worse off than the Catholics. You've chosen a theology that implodes in on itself.
You need to come to the orthodox side of Protestantism.

Robert Pate
May 3rd, 2016, 08:35 PM
Tulip is so intrinsic in the Scriptures, from Genesis to Revelation, that I suppose you have to practice your heresy :rolleyes:

Calvinism is that stuff, buddy. Real Christianity.
In a big way, you all are worse off than the Catholics. You've chosen a theology that implodes in on itself.
You need to come to the orthodox side of Protestantism.


Your Calvinist doctrine is in serious conflict with the word of God.

God has ALREADY reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

No one needs to be predestinated.