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Robert Pate
April 17th, 2016, 08:36 AM
Please don't tell me that you believe in Jesus, but you don't believe the Gospel. If you don't believe that Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil and is the savior of the whole world, then you have no right to call yourself a Christian. You are a fraud.

Jesus by his own words claims to be the savior of the world, "I came not to judge the world, BUT TO SAVE THE WORLD" John 12:47.

Jesus saves the world by doing for the world what the world cannot do for its self. As God's new Adam and our representative, he offers to God the Father a life of perfect obedience according to his holy law. He does this in our name and on our behalf, just like we did it our self. It is his life that was lived for our justification, Romans 3:26.

By his death on the cross Jesus has defeated sin, death and the devil. Jesus's death is our death. This is what Paul meant when he said, "I have been crucified with Christ" Galatians 2:20. We were "In Christ" when he lived. We were "In Christ" when he died. We were "In Christ" when he ascended into heaven. All who are "In Christ" are spiritually in heaven with Christ, Ephesians 2:6.

All that Jesus has done and all that Jesus is, is ours by faith alone. We hear, we believe and we receive the Holy Spirit and are born again by the Gospel, Romans 10:17. Faith comes by hearing and believing God's word, the Gospel.

Bociferous
April 17th, 2016, 09:21 AM
Please don't tell me that you believe in Jesus, but you don't believe the Gospel. If you don't believe that Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil and is the savior of the whole world, then you have no right to call yourself a Christian. You are a fraud.

And if you believe that Jesus died for the whole world yet believe He isn't powerful enough to save all those He died for, you are putting your faith not in Christ but in the puny power of the human will to do the saving which is equally fraudulent. To do this is to denigrate the ETERNAL decree of salvation by forcing the TEMPORAL decree on it in order that one may hold Christ at arm's length "while I decide who gets eternally saved!".

Paul said this: 1Tim 4:10..because the Lord revealed to him in his Damascus Road experience the wonderful mystery and distinction of God's temporal/eternal distinction--the special salvation from cleansing wrath for those who believe in time compared to the terrible all at once cleansing in the LOF where God's sovereignty rules the day, where He will have no mercy Jer 11:11, Ezek 7:4, Ezek 9:10, etc. in preparation for eternity. The wayward church has plastered over his wonderful universalism with their manmade doctrine for centuries now.

The church pushes aside God's eternal decree in order to wear their own righteousness Isa 4:1 (choose whether they will allow God to save them), despite His eternal promise found in both Testaments of the Bible, for example,
"The LORD of hosts has sworn saying, "Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand, to break Assyria [sin] in My land, and I will trample him on My mountains. Then his yoke will be removed from them, and his burden removed from their shoulder. This is the plan devised against the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out against all the nations. For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?" (note the ETERNAL decree) (Isa 14:24-27, my emph.)

In fact the entire chapter of Isa 14 describes God's pronouncement of destruction on sin and against the horrible thing in the human heart (which the church tries to pin on an individual called "Satan". Those who have ears should listen to the Lord's words to avoid the wrath to come...the gate to life [in time] is narrow and to destruction [the wrath of a loving Father forcing benefit (salvation) on His stubborn, disobedient children] is wide.

Sonnet
April 17th, 2016, 10:18 AM
And if you believe that Jesus died for the whole world yet believe He isn't powerful enough to save all those He died for, you are putting your faith not in Christ but in the puny power of the human will to do the saving which is equally fraudulent. To do this is to denigrate the ETERNAL decree of salvation by forcing the TEMPORAL decree on it in order that one may hold Christ at arm's length "while I decide who gets eternally saved!".


Wherefore did God create humanity if your assertion be so? I believe you are confusing faith with works of righteousness. Paul explicitly distinguishes them.

Please would you exegete Romans 4:1-5? If by grace then not of works else grace be not grace. (Romans 11:6a)

Robert Pate
April 17th, 2016, 10:43 AM
And if you believe that Jesus died for the whole world yet believe He isn't powerful enough to save all those He died for, you are putting your faith not in Christ but in the puny power of the human will to do the saving which is equally fraudulent. To do this is to denigrate the ETERNAL decree of salvation by forcing the TEMPORAL decree on it in order that one may hold Christ at arm's length "while I decide who gets eternally saved!".

Paul said this: 1Tim 4:10..because the Lord revealed to him in his Damascus Road experience the wonderful mystery and distinction of God's temporal/eternal distinction--the special salvation from cleansing wrath for those who believe in time compared to the terrible all at once cleansing in the LOF where God's sovereignty rules the day, where He will have no mercy Jer 11:11, Ezek 7:4, Ezek 9:10, etc. in preparation for eternity. The wayward church has plastered over his wonderful universalism with their manmade doctrine for centuries now.

The church pushes aside God's eternal decree in order to wear their own righteousness Isa 4:1 (choose whether they will allow God to save them), despite His eternal promise found in both Testaments of the Bible, for example,
"The LORD of hosts has sworn saying, "Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand, to break Assyria [sin] in My land, and I will trample him on My mountains. Then his yoke will be removed from them, and his burden removed from their shoulder. This is the plan devised against the whole earth; and this is the hand that is stretched out against all the nations. For the LORD of hosts has planned, and who can frustrate it? And as for His stretched-out hand, who can turn it back?" (note the ETERNAL decree) (Isa 14:24-27, my emph.)

In fact the entire chapter of Isa 14 describes God's pronouncement of destruction on sin and against the horrible thing in the human heart (which the church tries to pin on an individual called "Satan". Those who have ears should listen to the Lord's words to avoid the wrath to come...the gate to life [in time] is narrow and to destruction [the wrath of a loving Father forcing benefit (salvation) on His stubborn, disobedient children] is wide.


Salvation has been provided for all by the doing and the dying of Jesus. God has done all that he can do for the salvation of fallen man. The ball is now in humanities court. "Choose this day whom you will serve" God imposes salvation on no one. You need to get out of the Old Testament and into the new. Everything has changed.

jamie
April 17th, 2016, 11:27 AM
God imposes salvation on no one.


That's true, and this is why we must each work out our own salvation.

Robert Pate
April 17th, 2016, 12:21 PM
That's true, and this is why we must each work out our own salvation.

That all depends on what you mean by work. No one can do anything to earn their salvation by their works.

The work of salvation has already been done by Christ.

Paul meant work it out in your head.

Bociferous
April 17th, 2016, 05:05 PM
Salvation has been provided for all by the doing and the dying of Jesus. God has done all that he can do for the salvation of fallen man. The ball is now in humanities court. "Choose this day whom you will serve" God imposes salvation on no one. You need to get out of the Old Testament and into the new. Everything has changed.
No, the Arminian corruption will not be healed until there is a return to the Old Testament to hears what God is saying in all His word.

There are two distinct natures of relationship alluded to in Christian theological discussion.
1. Parent-small child relationship.
2. Peer to peer relationship.

The first can be defined different ways, i.e., powerful-weak, authority-submission, wise-feeble, etc.
The second suggests autonomous equals.

The interpretation of Scriptures to place the eternal destination of persons fully in control of the human will unwittingly invokes Isa 14:13-14 by assigning #2 to man's relationship with God when in this life we never (or should never) leave relationship #1, as Jesus noted in Mat 18:4-5 and Mark 10:15. Hence the wide and narrow and wide gates of Mat 7.

The idea that God imposes salvation on no one is a logical offshoot of the corruption noted above, and shows a serious lack of understanding of God's work in the human soul, which is to free us from the inner stain that hinders from choosing what we would naturally--all and every truth and good, relationship with God being the greatest of these--if we were not spiritually impeded from doing so. He's setting us free from our pride and rebellion so we can freely move toward relationship with Him. This is explained in #5 here:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9cB5V7RUwdw6yHgiUdWT2aRTdq1cW_hn

We do not choose as a free agent equal to God with the power to hold His eternal decrees at arms length. This doctrine comes from the horrible thing in the human heart. Those who throw away the Old Testament to "hear" what they want miss the wonderful work of God in humanity as laid out through the writings of His OT prophets and confirmed in the NT.

Fortunately for all, His eternal decree will stand:

15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we have made a pact. The overwhelming scourge will not reach us when it passes by, For we have made falsehood our refuge and we have concealed ourselves with deception."
16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed.
17 "And I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the level; Then hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters shall overflow the secret place.
18 "And your covenant with death shall be canceled, And your pact with Sheol shall not stand; When the overwhelming scourge passes through, Then you become its trampling place." (Isa 28:15-18)

Verses 15, 17 and 18 will bring about verse 16, not the other way around--confirming Jn 12:32.

Robert Pate
April 17th, 2016, 05:18 PM
No, the Arminian corruption will not be healed until there is a return to the Old Testament to hears what God is saying in all His word.

There are two distinct natures of relationship alluded to in Christian theological discussion.
1. Parent-small child relationship.
2. Peer to peer relationship.

The first can be defined different ways, i.e., powerful-weak, authority-submission, wise-feeble, etc.
The second suggests autonomous equals.

The interpretation of Scriptures to place the eternal destination of persons fully in control of the human will unwittingly invokes Isa 14:13-14 by assigning #2 to man's relationship with God when in this life we never (or should never) leave relationship #1, as Jesus noted in Mat 18:4-5 and Mark 10:15. Hence the wide and narrow and wide gates of Mat 7.

The idea that God imposes salvation on no one is a logical offshoot of the corruption noted above, and shows a serious lack of understanding of God's work in the human soul, which is to free us from the inner stain that hinders from choosing what we would naturally--all and every truth and good, relationship with God being the greatest of these--if we were not spiritually impeded from doing so. He's setting us free from our pride and rebellion so we can freely move toward relationship with Him. This is explained in #5 here:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL9cB5V7RUwdw6yHgiUdWT2aRTdq1cW_hn

We do not choose as a free agent equal to God with the power to hold His eternal decrees at arms length. This doctrine comes from the horrible thing in the human heart. Those who throw away the Old Testament to "hear" what they want miss the wonderful work of God in humanity as laid out through the writings of His OT prophets and confirmed in the NT.

Fortunately for all, His eternal decree will stand:

15 Because you have said, "We have made a covenant with death, And with Sheol we have made a pact. The overwhelming scourge will not reach us when it passes by, For we have made falsehood our refuge and we have concealed ourselves with deception."
16 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a tested stone, A costly cornerstone for the foundation, firmly placed. He who believes in it will not be disturbed.
17 "And I will make justice the measuring line, And righteousness the level; Then hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, And the waters shall overflow the secret place.
18 "And your covenant with death shall be canceled, And your pact with Sheol shall not stand; When the overwhelming scourge passes through, Then you become its trampling place." (Isa 28:15-18)

Verses 15, 17 and 18 will bring about verse 16, not the other way around--confirming Jn 12:32.


The Old Testament is a book of rules and laws. Christians are not under laws and rules, Ephesians 2:15. We are new creations in Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:17. that are led by the Spirit and not the law.

We have been born again by the word of God which is the Gospel, 1 Peter 1:23.

If God imposed salvation or damnation on anyone he would be unjust.

Bociferous
April 17th, 2016, 07:34 PM
Wherefore did God create humanity if your assertion be so? I believe you are confusing faith with works of righteousness. Paul explicitly distinguishes them.

Please would you exegete Romans 4:1-5? If by grace then not of works else grace be not grace. (Romans 11:6a)
I donít see how my post calls into question why God created humanity or how it does damage to the notion of salvation by faith? The path to saving faith in time is a difficult one (1Pet 4:18) and has to be worked out in fear and trembling. I believe the only works of righteousness a human performs are those sheís been cleansed spiritually to accomplish. Much of what we do is superficial and for self-interest. Thatís our nature. The difficulty is a spiritual and intellectual oneócoming to a realization and acceptance that one is saved is not an easy thing.

How do you see what I posted as a confusion of faith and works?

meshak
April 17th, 2016, 08:08 PM
I don’t see how my post calls into question why God created humanity or how it does damage to the notion of salvation by faith? The path to saving faith in time is a difficult one (1Pet 4:18) and has to be worked out in fear and trembling. I believe the only works of righteousness a human performs are those she’s been cleansed spiritually to accomplish. Much of what we do is superficial and for self-interest. That’s our nature. The difficulty is a spiritual and intellectual one—coming to a realization and acceptance that one is saved is not an easy thing.

How do you see what I posted as a confusion of faith and works?

Do you base your faith in UR?

Do you believe all are saved without accepting Jesus as a Savior?

Sonnet
April 17th, 2016, 11:06 PM
I donít see how my post calls into question why God created humanity or how it does damage to the notion of salvation by faith? The path to saving faith in time is a difficult one (1Pet 4:18) and has to be worked out in fear and trembling. I believe the only works of righteousness a human performs are those sheís been cleansed spiritually to accomplish. Much of what we do is superficial and for self-interest. Thatís our nature. The difficulty is a spiritual and intellectual oneócoming to a realization and acceptance that one is saved is not an easy thing.

How do you see what I posted as a confusion of faith and works?

I guess I am saying that if the very faith required of us for salvation is actually predetermined and effected by God then our worth as created entities is as nothing.

I do agree with you about our superficiality regarding works of righteousness. However, the faith required of us for salvation has, by Paul's definition, nothing whatsoever about it that constitutes works righteousness:

Romans 4:1-5
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast aboutóbut not before God. What does Scripture say? ďAbraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.Ē Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

If you attempt to define 'faith' by including the notion that the one exercising it is somehow doing something 'good' then you contradict Paul's words here.

Bociferous
April 18th, 2016, 05:34 AM
Do you base your faith in UR?

Do you believe all are saved without accepting Jesus as a Savior?
Yes.

meshak
April 18th, 2016, 05:42 AM
Yes.

Ok, I just wanted to make sure where your views are coming from.

that is too bad.

then you should not be claiming to be Jesus' followers because Jesus says He is the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Him.

Without Jesus' teachings, we will be following our own desires which is selfish. Without Him, we are our own gods. God is much, much bigger than any human, friend.

Bociferous
April 18th, 2016, 06:08 AM
I guess I am saying that if the very faith required of us for salvation is actually predetermined and effected by God then our worth as created entities is as nothing.
First, I don't understand this position. I don't see that predestination has anything to do with a human's worth or value.

Second, I don't claim that humans are necessarily predestined to their eternal salvation in life. Some passages suggest this, but 'hard' predestination is only found in the more extremist, fundamentalist Calvinists. Here's the short version of how I see salvation:
1. God predestines all to be saved (eternal decree)
2. God awakens [regenerates] all in time. Once regenerated, salvation is assured via the eternal decree (Isa 42:3)
3. Partial regeneration assures degrees of moral culpability and ability to choose good. Humans choose more or less freely to heed Christ's call. [Christ is truth Jn 14:6 and His call is to believe truth and be conformed to it in life to attain saving faith.] This is the temporal aspect of salvation and doesn't require one be predestined to claim it.
4. Those who conform and are sanctified to to an approved (James 1:12) state of faith. These have attained their eternal life the easy way by faith in time (Mat 11:29-30, Jn 5:24)), judged so and are changed to their wholly true [perfect] state without further cleansing (1Cor 15:51-52) upon entering the afterlife.
5. Unbelievers attain their cleansing the hard and terrible way, by being brought into the presence of God (Eccl 12:7) where His Truth essence is naturally a roaring lake of fire to the stain of falsity yet in the soul of those not covered by Christ's imputed righteousness by faith.

Again, the ability to choose in time doesn't require predestination, only the eternal decree does.


I do agree with you about our superficiality regarding works of righteousness. However, the faith required of us for salvation has, by Paul's definition, nothing whatsoever about it that constitutes works righteousness
Agreed.


If you attempt to define 'faith' by including the notion that the one exercising it is somehow doing something 'good' then you contradict Paul's words here.
As stated above, I believe by the time we actually do anything good we've already been spiritually cleansed to do so such that it comes naturally and is not a work. It's only those things we do in order to be good that are yet being worked out in fear and trembling. We're all works in progress.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 18th, 2016, 06:49 AM
First, I don't understand this position. I don't see that predestination has anything to do with a human's worth or value.

Second, I don't claim that humans are necessarily predestined to their eternal salvation in life. Some passages suggest this, but 'hard' predestination is only found in the more extremist, fundamentalist Calvinists. Here's the short version of how I see salvation:
1. God predestines all to be saved (eternal decree)
2. God awakens [regenerates] all in time. Once regenerated, salvation is assured via the eternal decree (Isa 42:3)
3. Partial regeneration assures degrees of moral culpability and ability to choose good. Humans choose more or less freely to heed Christ's call. [Christ is truth Jn 14:6 and His call is to believe truth and be conformed to it in life to attain saving faith.] This is the temporal aspect of salvation and doesn't require one be predestined to claim it.
4. Those who conform and are sanctified to to an approved (James 1:12) state of faith. These have attained their eternal life the easy way by faith in time (Mat 11:29-30, Jn 5:24)), judged so and are changed to their wholly true [perfect] state without further cleansing (1Cor 15:51-52) upon entering the afterlife.
5. Unbelievers attain their cleansing the hard and terrible way, by being brought into the presence of God (Eccl 12:7) where His Truth essence is naturally a roaring lake of fire to the stain of falsity yet in the soul of those not covered by Christ's imputed righteousness by faith.

Again, the ability to choose in time doesn't require predestination, only the eternal decree does.


Agreed.


As stated above, I believe by the time we actually do anything good we've already been spiritually cleansed to do so such that it comes naturally and is not a work. It's only those things we do in order to be good that are yet being worked out in fear and trembling. We're all works in progress.

You're mixing the Kingdom Message with the Grace Message and creating a false Hybrid.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 18th, 2016, 06:55 AM
Hey, Boci, you claim that one can be saved without faith in Christ? If that's what you believe, you can't be accepted as a Christian?

Robert Pate
April 18th, 2016, 07:21 AM
First, I don't understand this position. I don't see that predestination has anything to do with a human's worth or value.

Second, I don't claim that humans are necessarily predestined to their eternal salvation in life. Some passages suggest this, but 'hard' predestination is only found in the more extremist, fundamentalist Calvinists. Here's the short version of how I see salvation:
1. God predestines all to be saved (eternal decree)
2. God awakens [regenerates] all in time. Once regenerated, salvation is assured via the eternal decree (Isa 42:3)
3. Partial regeneration assures degrees of moral culpability and ability to choose good. Humans choose more or less freely to heed Christ's call. [Christ is truth Jn 14:6 and His call is to believe truth and be conformed to it in life to attain saving faith.] This is the temporal aspect of salvation and doesn't require one be predestined to claim it.
4. Those who conform and are sanctified to to an approved (James 1:12) state of faith. These have attained their eternal life the easy way by faith in time (Mat 11:29-30, Jn 5:24)), judged so and are changed to their wholly true [perfect] state without further cleansing (1Cor 15:51-52) upon entering the afterlife.
5. Unbelievers attain their cleansing the hard and terrible way, by being brought into the presence of God (Eccl 12:7) where His Truth essence is naturally a roaring lake of fire to the stain of falsity yet in the soul of those not covered by Christ's imputed righteousness by faith.

Again, the ability to choose in time doesn't require predestination, only the eternal decree does.


Agreed.


As stated above, I believe by the time we actually do anything good we've already been spiritually cleansed to do so such that it comes naturally and is not a work. It's only those things we do in order to be good that are yet being worked out in fear and trembling. We're all works in progress.

No Christ or Gospel needed.

Bociferous
April 18th, 2016, 11:16 AM
No Christ or Gospel needed.
No reflective or rational capacity needed.

Robert Pate
April 19th, 2016, 11:45 AM
No reflective or rational capacity needed.

Without the Gospel the Bible is just paper.

jamie
April 19th, 2016, 11:49 AM
That all depends on what you mean by work. No one can do anything to earn their salvation by their works.

The work of salvation has already been done by Christ.

Paul meant work it out in your head.


Just how obstinate can you be?

Cruciform
April 19th, 2016, 02:43 PM
To Reject Christ's Gospel is to Reject Christ
To Reject Brinsmead-ism is to Reject a Man-Made Pseudo-Gospel

patrick jane
April 19th, 2016, 03:40 PM
That's true, and this is why we must each work out our own salvation.
FALSE GOSPEL ALERT ************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** ************************************************** *******************************************

Robert Pate
April 19th, 2016, 04:43 PM
To Reject Brinsmead-ism is to Reject a Man-Made Pseudo-Gospel

Robert D. Brinsmead is a Christian scholar that published a Christian magazine called "Verdict". It was a world wide publication that many other Christian scholars participated in. Verdict's motto was "The Gospel Plus Nothing and Nothing But the Gospel". Most of the subscribers to Verdict were pastors and seminary professors. Verdict was not a magazine about religion, If anything it was anti-religion. Brinsmead funded this publication with his own money and donations from the subscribers. I followed Verdict for over 20 years. Brinsmead who also owns an exotic fruit farm in Australia, has retired he is 83 years old. I am forever indebted to Mr Brinsmead because it was through his publication that I discovered the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you would like to know more about Verdict Publications or Brinsmead google the name.

Robert Pate
April 19th, 2016, 04:45 PM
Just how obstinate can you be?

What work are you going to do to earn your salvation?

chrysostom
April 19th, 2016, 04:51 PM
What work are you going to do to earn your salvation?

we don't earn our salvation

Robert Pate
April 19th, 2016, 04:55 PM
we don't earn our salvation

"We don't earn our salvation"?

Does this mean that you are going to renounce Catholicism?

chrysostom
April 19th, 2016, 04:56 PM
"We don't earn our salvation"?

Does this mean that you are going to renounce Catholicism?

catholics don't earn their salvation

Cruciform
April 19th, 2016, 05:40 PM
Catholics don't earn their salvation
Correct, since any acts of ours that are pleasing to God are not done in our own power, but only as a result of God's grace. "It is God who works in us, both to will and to do according to his good pleasure" (Phil. 2:12-13; cf. 1 Cor. 15:10; Rom. 2:6-11).