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Robert Pate
April 11th, 2016, 04:29 PM
Good religion is Spirit led religion. Bad religion is law and works led religion.

To be under the law or to be led by the law is to be a servant of sin.

Paul wrote "But God be thanked, that you were servants of sin, but you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered to you" Romans 6:17.

That form of doctrine that was delivered to them was the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Gospel is the "Good News" that Jesus has fulfilled all of the demands of God's holy law and that he did it in our name and on our behalf, just like we did it our self. After he fulfilled it he abolished it, Ephesians 2:15. Christians are no longer under it, nor are they subject to it. Paul said that the law Was contrary to us, Colossians 2:14. What he meant was that nobody could do it or keep it. The law demands that you be perfect. There is none perfect, no, not one, Romans 3:10.

Bad religion is the religion of the Pharisees. The religion of the Pharisees was a law based religion. They took the commandments and the ordinances and came up with over 600 laws and rules for holy living. The law was their savior. They said that the Torah was the way, the truth and the life and was the light that lightens every man. John took what the Pharisees said about the Torah and applied it to Jesus, John 14:6.

Bad religion rejects the Gospel and justification by faith and replaces it with false doctrine and works based religion. Law based religion is not Spirit led religion. Christians are not required to do anything for their salvation other than to believe in Jesus as their savior.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us" Titus 3:5.

The reason that Christians are not required to do works or keep the law for their salvation is because the work of salvation has already been done by Jesus Christ. It was Jesus that fulfilled the law. It was Jesus that atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. No one needs to be predestinated. No one needs to Join the Catholic church. We are perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

When we add anything to the Gospel we deny the Gospel. To say that it is the Gospel plus Calvinism, or its the Gospel plus Catholicism. What we are really saying is that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not sufficient to save us and we need religion. Good religion is a religion that does good works, not to be saved, but because they are saved. It is works that are done out of a heart of love and gratitude for what Christ has done for us in his work of salvation. Maybe this is what James meant when he said, "Faith without works is dead" James 2:17.

Predi
April 13th, 2016, 01:22 PM
Good religion is a religion that does good works, not to be saved, but because they are saved.

How do you exactly understand "saved"? What does it mean?

Robert Pate
April 13th, 2016, 03:32 PM
How do you exactly understand "saved"? What does it mean?

Saved means a total and complete reliance upon the work and the person of Jesus Christ for your salvation.

Nick M
April 13th, 2016, 03:57 PM
How do you exactly understand "saved"? What does it mean?

To move from death to life.

Predi
April 15th, 2016, 11:23 AM
To move from death to life.

Nice, but this can be understood in many ways. Is there a simple explanation, in simple words?

Predi
April 15th, 2016, 11:25 AM
Saved means a total and complete reliance upon the work and the person of Jesus Christ for your salvation.

But how can one know their reliance is total? What if it's 99.9% but in the back of the mind there's thing thing...? Shouldn't people keep on asking, "Am I saved?"

Robert Pate
April 15th, 2016, 01:31 PM
But how can one know their reliance is total? What if it's 99.9% but in the back of the mind there's thing thing...? Shouldn't people keep on asking, "Am I saved?"

People that are unsure of their salvation are people that are usually immature in the faith.

They don't have a good knowledge of the Gospel and justification by faith.

jzeidler
April 15th, 2016, 01:35 PM
All religion is bad because at the foundation all you see is the question "did I DO enough..."


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iKnowUmadBro
April 15th, 2016, 01:42 PM
All religion is bad because at the foundation all you see is the question "did I DO enough..."


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Seems more like a personal observation then a universal truth, or even a majority opinion. I've never actually heard anyone say that. I've heard oh religion is bad because it preys on people's fears, or guilt. However I've never heard your angle.

Predi
April 15th, 2016, 02:20 PM
People that are unsure of their salvation are people that are usually immature in the faith.

Are you absolutely sure of your salvation?

Nick M
April 15th, 2016, 05:35 PM
Nice, but this can be understood in many ways. Is there a simple explanation, in simple words?

How much simpler can it be? I can make it more complicated and explain that all die from Adam, even those that did not sin according to him. Salvation is moving from death in Adam to life in the Lord Jesus Christ. That is salvation.

jzeidler
April 15th, 2016, 05:55 PM
Seems more like a personal observation then a universal truth, or even a majority opinion. I've never actually heard anyone say that. I've heard oh religion is bad because it preys on people's fears, or guilt. However I've never heard your angle.

You've never heard that??? Yeah all religion is, did I read my bible enough, pray enough, give enough, etc enough for God to be favorable towards me? It's a bunch of crap and has spoiled true Christianity that says that Jesus did everything so you don't have to do anything to gain favor with God.

Robert Pate
April 16th, 2016, 07:38 AM
Are you absolutely sure of your salvation?

Yep, 100%.

Sinners cannot save sinners nor can sinners save themselves.

jamie
April 16th, 2016, 08:11 AM
Are you absolutely sure of your salvation?


Salvation equates to immortality.

John said, "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life, he who does not have the Son of God does not have life." (1 John 5:11-12)

Currently, our immortality is held in trust for us by Jesus to be bestowed on us at the first resurrection.

Paul said, "But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified."
(1 Corinthians 9:27)

Jesus said, "I know your works that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth." (Revelation 3:15-16)

Peter explained, "For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: 'A dog returns to his own vomit' and 'a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.'" (2 Peter 2:20-22)

chair
April 17th, 2016, 02:13 PM
Good religion is Spirit led religion. Bad religion is law and works led

Finally I understand why God gave the Israelites the Law! Because Law is Bad religion! Now it all makes sense!

jamie
April 17th, 2016, 03:03 PM
Finally I understand why God gave the Israelites the Law! Because Law is Bad religion! Now it all makes sense!


That is because Pate makes his assertions independent of scripture. For instance: "And what great nation is there that has such statutes and righteous judgments as are in all this law which I set before you this day?" (Deuteronomy 4:8)

Robert Pate
April 17th, 2016, 04:43 PM
Finally I understand why God gave the Israelites the Law! Because Law is Bad religion! Now it all makes sense!

If the law is good why did Jesus abolish it, Ephesians 2:15.

The new man is the Spirit led man. Not the law led man.

Robert Pate
April 17th, 2016, 04:45 PM
That is because Pate makes his assertions independent of scripture. For instance: "And what great nation is there that has such statutes and righteous judgments as are in all this law which I set before you this day?" (Deuteronomy 4:8)

That law along with all of the ordinances has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15

beloved57
April 17th, 2016, 06:13 PM
That law along with all of the ordinances has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15


pateism is bad religion, just like all religions that promote salvation by works, by what a person does !

chair
April 18th, 2016, 03:06 AM
If the law is good why did Jesus abolish it, Ephesians 2:15.

The new man is the Spirit led man. Not the law led man.

If the Law is bad- why did God give it?

Maybe, just maybe, Paul is wrong.

chrysostom
April 18th, 2016, 03:09 AM
If the Law is bad- why did God give it?

Maybe, just maybe, Paul is wrong.

paul is not wrong
-many are wrong about what paul said

Robert Pate
April 18th, 2016, 07:30 AM
If the Law is bad- why did God give it?

Maybe, just maybe, Paul is wrong.

Because your Jewish ancestors were acting like a bunch of wild animals.

Predi
April 18th, 2016, 07:33 AM
How much simpler can it be? I can make it more complicated and explain that all die from Adam, even those that did not sin according to him. Salvation is moving from death in Adam to life in the Lord Jesus Christ. That is salvation.

It is short, but it is not simple. It's like poetry - it can mean different things to different people. I can say, "I ceased my daily struggling and rested myself comfortably" and you won't know what I'm talking about, or I can say, "I went to sleep" and you will.

Death in Adam? What does it mean?

jamie
April 18th, 2016, 07:48 AM
That law along with all of the ordinances has been abolished, Ephesians 2:15


Jesus said, "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill" (Matthew 5:17). The law said he would (Deuteronomy 18:18). So, of course, you would claim he destroyed the law. You say one thing, Jesus says another, someone is mistaken.

God didn't destroy his law, he changed it through Jesus Christ by retaining the law but eliminating the ordinances. I realize that is beyond your understanding and you will continue claiming Jesus was mistaken.

jamie
April 18th, 2016, 07:55 AM
Death in Adam? What does it mean?


Because Adam relinquished his dominion to the devil, and the devil is a murderer, God is allowing every human to die before they are judged (Hebrews 9:27).

jamie
April 18th, 2016, 07:58 AM
Because your Jewish ancestors were acting like a bunch of wild animals.


However, it was not the Jews who started two world wars.

Predi
April 18th, 2016, 07:59 AM
I understand. Let me ask three questions though:

1 John 5:12 - what does it mean "to have the Son?"
Is Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:27 worried he can lose his salvation?
What makes you think the letters to churches from Revelation refer directly to us?

jamie
April 18th, 2016, 08:04 AM
The new man is the Spirit led man. Not the law led man.


Let's say the new man is led one direction by the "spirit" and his wife is led in a different direction. Now we have a house divided.

How do you resolve it if there is no law to provide guidance?

6days
April 18th, 2016, 08:05 AM
Death in Adam? What does it mean?
You seem to be saying that language can mean anything.....and different things to different people. Its a false notion meant to make scripture meaningless. By your 'logic'...Christ being born of a virgin.....being crucified....rising from the dead.....these are only words that can be interpreted however you wish.

Words do have meaning. "Death in Adam" means nothing without context. However if you are interested in a phrase in scripture, we can determine meaning using context.

jamie
April 18th, 2016, 08:12 AM
1 John 5:12 - what does it mean "to have the Son?"


Paul explained, "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His" (Romans 8:9).

jamie
April 18th, 2016, 08:18 AM
Is Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:27 worried he can lose his salvation?


Yes, our salvation is held in trust for us by Jesus until the first resurrection when it will then become innate.


He who has the Son has life, he who does not have the Son of God does not have life (1 John 5:12).

jamie
April 18th, 2016, 08:21 AM
What makes you think the letters to churches from Revelation refer directly to us?


Because of Gabriel's seventy weeks prophecy, which means we are living in the last days of this age.

Predi
April 18th, 2016, 10:26 AM
You seem to be saying that language can mean anything.....and different things to different people. Its a false notion meant to make scripture meaningless. By your 'logic'...Christ being born of a virgin.....being crucified....rising from the dead.....these are only words that can be interpreted however you wish.

Words do have meaning. "Death in Adam" means nothing without context. However if you are interested in a phrase in scripture, we can determine meaning using context.

I don't think anything can mean anything, far from it! But I can't think of more than 1 meaning of being born from a virgin or being literally crucified, while I can come up with quite a few theological explanations of "Death in Adam".

1. Literal Death.
2. Spiritual death.
3. Eternal death - conscious hell.
4. Absolute death - annihilation.

All options are based - according to some people - on the Bible. And I admit - in Romans 8:6 I don't really see which death Paul is talking about!!

Predi
April 18th, 2016, 10:28 AM
Paul explained, "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His" (Romans 8:9).

How are these two verses related in any way? I was asking what it meant to "have the Son" and Romans 8:9 doesn't even mention he word "son?"

jamie
April 18th, 2016, 12:02 PM
How are these two verses related in any way? I was asking what it meant to "have the Son" and Romans 8:9 doesn't even mention he word "son?"


To "have" the Son means to have the Spirit of Christ, which is what you asked.

chair
April 18th, 2016, 01:14 PM
Because your Jewish ancestors were acting like a bunch of wild animals.

When God gave the Israelites the Law, they had just left Egypt- with God's help. I am not sure where you got the idea that they were "behaving like wild animals" at the time. In any case, much of the Law is aimed at getting people to behave better. What is "Bad" about that? Are legal systems in general "Bad"?

Robert Pate
April 18th, 2016, 04:48 PM
When God gave the Israelites the Law, they had just left Egypt- with God's help. I am not sure where you got the idea that they were "behaving like wild animals" at the time. In any case, much of the Law is aimed at getting people to behave better. What is "Bad" about that? Are legal systems in general "Bad"?


Your Jewish ancestors had to be left out in the wilderness for 40 years so that the rebels could die off before they entered the promise land.

chair
April 19th, 2016, 01:44 AM
Your Jewish ancestors had to be left out in the wilderness for 40 years so that the rebels could die off before they entered the promise land.

Therefore the Law is bad?

Where is the logic?

chair
April 19th, 2016, 01:45 AM
When God gave the Israelites the Law, they had just left Egypt- with God's help. I am not sure where you got the idea that they were "behaving like wild animals" at the time. In any case, much of the Law is aimed at getting people to behave better. What is "Bad" about that? Are legal systems in general "Bad"?

Pate- no answer?

egyptianmuslim
April 19th, 2016, 07:39 PM
life without law, can i marry my sister!!

Epoisses
April 19th, 2016, 11:15 PM
Therefore the Law is bad?

Where is the logic?

Yes, in the age of grace the law is bad. Maybe a few thousand years ago the law would have been a step up from universal idolatry but we live in a modern world now.

Epoisses
April 19th, 2016, 11:17 PM
life without law, can i marry my sister!!

Love for your sister's well being would keep you from that better than law.

The little children need to be slapped on the hand because they're not mature enough to make rational decisions.

chair
April 20th, 2016, 06:18 AM
Yes, in the age of grace the law is bad. Maybe a few thousand years ago the law would have been a step up from universal idolatry but we live in a modern world now.

I suppose that you live in a world without murder, theft or adultery. A world in which there are never disputes between people over ownership or property rights. A wonderful world of Grace.

What are you smoking?

jamie
April 20th, 2016, 08:06 AM
Yes, in the age of grace the law is bad. Maybe a few thousand years ago the law would have been a step up from universal idolatry but we live in a modern world now.


Without law there would be no need for grace, no one would be guilty.

Epoisses
April 20th, 2016, 08:46 AM
I suppose that you live in a world without murder, theft or adultery. A world in which there are never disputes between people over ownership or property rights. A wonderful world of Grace.

What are you smoking?

Grace keeps believers from theft, murder and adultery. Secular law is still in place for the unbelievers and atheists who can't control their passions. Another wannabe believer who trusts in his works.

Epoisses
April 20th, 2016, 08:47 AM
Without law there would be no need for grace, no one would be guilty.Paul said the world was guilty of sin before the law was even given. How could that be?

serpentdove
April 20th, 2016, 09:02 AM
I suppose that you live in a world without murder, theft or adultery. A world in which there are never disputes between people over ownership or property rights. A wonderful world of Grace.

What are you smoking?


Grace keeps believers from theft, murder and adultery. Secular law is still in place for the unbelievers and atheists who can't control their passions...

Right. The law is for the lawless (1 Ti 1:9). One can life for: himself (2 Ti 3:2), for others (Ga 1:10) or for God (Ga 2:20).

serpentdove
April 20th, 2016, 09:10 AM
How do you exactly understand "saved"? What does it mean?

Jn 3:7

serpentdove
April 20th, 2016, 09:17 AM
Finally I understand why God gave the Israelites the Law! Because Law is Bad religion! Now it all makes sense!1 Co 1:23

The law is a mirror to show men who they are. http://vananne.com/serpentdove/367b35ec45accddaa2dca589ec3e6cf1.gif One wakes up--sees he looks like hell; it should drive him to the shower. :granite:

For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does (Jas 1:23–25).

And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.’ Ac 22:16 http://www.e-moticone.com/emoticone/hygiene/douche07c.gif

Lord, by this time he stinketh (Jn 11:39). http://www.allsmileys.com/files/kolobok/standard/43.gif

jamie
April 20th, 2016, 09:40 AM
Paul said the world was guilty of sin before the law was even given. How could that be?


Paul was referring to the Law of Moses.

Epoisses
April 20th, 2016, 10:05 AM
Paul was referring to the Law of Moses.

The law of the Spirit trumps the law of sin and death.

chair
April 20th, 2016, 10:18 AM
Grace keeps believers from theft, murder and adultery. Secular law is still in place for the unbelievers and atheists who can't control their passions. Another wannabe believer who trusts in his works.

This has nothing at all to do with "grace". All you are saying is that if everybody was nice, there would be no need for law.

Epoisses
April 20th, 2016, 10:22 AM
This has nothing at all to do with "grace". All you are saying is that if everybody was nice, there would be no need for law.

Oh that's right you're not a Christian so you wouldn't have a clue about grace. What are you again - a messianic or Jew or something like that?

jamie
April 20th, 2016, 11:52 AM
Oh that's right you're not a Christian so you wouldn't have a clue about grace. What are you again - a messianic or Jew or something like that?


Condescending, Why?

egyptianmuslim
April 20th, 2016, 11:57 AM
Love for your sister's well being would keep you from that better than law.

The little children need to be slapped on the hand because they're not mature enough to make rational decisions.
There is no judgement without law.... why God told Noah that He will erase the mankind from the face of the earth?? Because they didn't follow an agreement/law .....without an agreement around a law no need for punishment or judge...... God is the Greatest Judge.
Human isn't angel. Human need law.

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jamie
April 20th, 2016, 11:57 AM
Paul said the world was guilty of sin before the law was even given. How could that be?



For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law... (Romans 2:12)

chair
April 20th, 2016, 12:02 PM
Oh that's right you're not a Christian so you wouldn't have a clue about grace. What are you again - a messianic or Jew or something like that?

I am an observant Jew. And who I am or what I am is not relevant. Your ideas about Grace and Law simply do not make sense.

Ktoyou
April 20th, 2016, 01:01 PM
Good religion is Spirit led religion. Bad religion is law and works led religion.



All those Catholics who live according to the Church are not saved.

serpentdove
April 20th, 2016, 01:54 PM
All those Catholics who live according to the Church are not saved.

Plans and programs don't save (Ga 1:6-8). :olinger: Jesus saves (Isa 63:9; Eph 5:23). Jesus alone saves (Isa 45:21,22; 59:16; Ac 4:12). :Poly:

See:

Roman Catholicism (http://vananne.com/culttoasters/#Roman_Catholicism)

jamie
April 20th, 2016, 03:09 PM
The law of the Spirit trumps the law of sin and death.


God's covenant defines the law of the Spirit.

egyptianmuslim
April 20th, 2016, 03:20 PM
Without a law there is no agreement with God.

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egyptianmuslim
April 20th, 2016, 03:32 PM
Because God gave us a free will he also gave a law to control this free will

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Totton Linnet
April 20th, 2016, 04:05 PM
What kind of double talk is that

chair
April 20th, 2016, 10:09 PM
What kind of double talk is that

Look up the word "covenant" in the dictionary.

Epoisses
April 20th, 2016, 11:03 PM
There is no judgement without law.... why God told Noah that He will erase the mankind from the face of the earth?? Because they didn't follow an agreement/law .....without an agreement around a law no need for punishment or judge...... God is the Greatest Judge.
Human isn't angel. Human need law.

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Human need law....ugh, me slap wife and kick dog!

Epoisses
April 20th, 2016, 11:04 PM
I am an observant Jew. And who I am or what I am is not relevant. Your ideas about Grace and Law simply do not make sense.

I am an observant Christian and I reject your law of sin and death.

Epoisses
April 20th, 2016, 11:05 PM
God's covenant defines the law of the Spirit.

Yea, the new covenant of grace does.

jamie
April 21st, 2016, 06:59 AM
Yea, the new covenant of grace does.


Abel was saved by grace, not works.

The covenant provides instructions on how to live a peaceful life.

egyptianmuslim
April 21st, 2016, 08:32 AM
Human need law....ugh, me slap wife and kick dog!
It is sin because we human are under the law, but animals aren't sinful because it is outside the law.

Abel was saved by grace, not works.

The covenant provides instructions on how to live a peaceful life.


Look up the word "covenant" in the dictionary.


What kind of double talk is that


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Robert Pate
April 21st, 2016, 08:55 AM
Abel was saved by grace, not works.

The covenant provides instructions on how to live a peaceful life.

Christians are called to live by the Spirit and not the law. Romans 8:1, 2.

jamie
April 21st, 2016, 09:40 AM
Christians are called to live by the Spirit and not the law. Romans 8:1, 2.


All TV evangelists claim to live by the Spirit, however, many of them have no standards.

The Spirit seeks those who will worship in Spirit and truth. (John 4:24)

So what is truth? (John 17:17) We are set apart by the Spirit's word.

You are without a compass to guide you in the Spirit's ways which have been defined for us.

Your spirit guidance is wishful thinking.

:think:

egyptianmuslim
April 21st, 2016, 10:51 AM
Christians are called to live by the Spirit and not the law. Romans 8:1, 2.
Please , explain living by spirit....... is it a work or not?

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