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Jacob
April 11th, 2016, 12:14 PM
Your opinion on Godís Law. Do you believe Godís Law is only for pointing out sin in a personís life so that they can understand their need for a Savior and be saved by God and Jesus? Or, do you believe Godís Law is also to be obeyed, or is also for our obedience?

Nick M
April 11th, 2016, 01:45 PM
While circumcised or not? There are two different answers to your question. For us today, this is it.

Galatians 3

24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Jacob
April 11th, 2016, 01:57 PM
While circumcised or not? There are two different answers to your question. For us today, this is it.

Galatians 3

24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

I don't understand why you are saying there are two answers. Are you asking about salvation or about obedience?

Grosnick Marowbe
April 11th, 2016, 02:01 PM
The Jews that Christ was sent to were under the Law. Christ, in His earthly ministry only came for them as their Messiah. They rejected Him however.

The Apostle Paul was sent to the Gentiles who were never under the Law nor given the Law.

Robert Pate
April 11th, 2016, 02:56 PM
Your opinion on God’s Law. Do you believe God’s Law is only for pointing out sin in a person’s life so that they can understand their need for a Savior and be saved by God and Jesus? Or, do you believe God’s Law is also to be obeyed, or is also for our obedience?

The law is the very nature and character of God.

The law was given to the Jews as a keeper until Christ had arrived and then they were to live by Spirit and not by law.

The law reveals the righteousness of God and the sinfulness of man.

God never intended for his people to live according to rules and laws. "The Just Shall Live By Faith" Romans 1:17.

Jacob
April 11th, 2016, 03:22 PM
Romans 15:1-13 NASB - 1 Now we who are strong ought to bear the weaknesses of those without strength and not just please ourselves. 2 Each of us is to please his neighbor for his good, to his edification. 3 For even Christ did not please Himself; but as it is written, "THE REPROACHES OF THOSE WHO REPROACHED YOU FELL ON ME." 4 For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope. 5 Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus, 6 so that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. 7 Therefore, accept one another, just as Christ also accepted us to the glory of God. 8 For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers, 9 and for the Gentiles to glorify God for His mercy; as it is written,"THEREFORE I WILL GIVE PRAISE TO YOU AMONG THE GENTILES,AND I WILL SING TO YOUR NAME." 10 Again he says,"REJOICE, O GENTILES, WITH HIS PEOPLE." 11 And again,"PRAISE THE LORD ALL YOU GENTILES,AND LET ALL THE PEOPLES PRAISE HIM." 12 Again Isaiah says,"THERE SHALL COME THE ROOT OF JESSE,AND HE WHO ARISES TO RULE OVER THE GENTILES,IN HIM SHALL THE GENTILES HOPE." 13 Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

jamie
April 11th, 2016, 05:22 PM
Your opinion on Godís Law.


Through Jesus, God updated his law to conform to the covenant made with Christ and Abraham.

Jacob
April 11th, 2016, 05:34 PM
Through Jesus, God updated his law to conform to the covenant made with Christ and Abraham.Can you explain what you mean? I am unfamiliar with the terms updated and conform. I know who Christ and Abraham are, but even in this I don't know what you mean by the covenant made with Christ and Abraham.

jamie
April 11th, 2016, 06:27 PM
Can you explain what you mean? I am unfamiliar with the terms updated and conform. I know who Christ and Abraham are, but even in this I don't know what you mean by the covenant made with Christ and Abraham.


Paul said, "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, 'And to seeds' as of many, but as of one, 'And to your Seed' who is Christ. And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ that it should make the promise of no effect." (Galatians 3:16-17)

What was the promise?


...that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Galatians 3:14)

Jacob
April 11th, 2016, 06:38 PM
Paul said, "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, 'And to seeds' as of many, but as of one, 'And to your Seed' who is Christ. And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ that it should make the promise of no effect." (Galatians 3:16-17)

What was the promise?


...that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Galatians 3:14)
Are you speaking of the covenant God made with Abraham?

jamie
April 11th, 2016, 06:47 PM
Are you speaking of the covenant God made with Abraham?


The covenant God made with Jacob's people does not modify the covenant God made with Abraham and Christ. (Galatians 3:15)

The covenant with Jacob's people ended with John, the prophet who baptized Jesus. (Matthew 11:13)(Luke 16:16)

Now the kingdom of God is preached.

Jacob
April 11th, 2016, 06:52 PM
The covenant God made with Jacob's people does not modify the covenant God made with Abraham and Christ. (Galatians 3:15)

The covenant with Jacob's people ended with John, the prophet who baptized Jesus. (Matthew 11:13)(Luke 16:16)

Now the kingdom of God is preached.
God made a covenant with Abraham. God made a covenant with the nation of Israel. In Jesus Christ we have the new covenant.

Nick M
April 11th, 2016, 07:07 PM
I don't understand why you are saying there are two answers.

Then why not study what I posted? I posted from your apostle, Paul. This is what he said.

Romans 4

3For what does the Scripture say? ďAbraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.Ē 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:


7
ďBlessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;

8
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.Ē

9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.

Nick M
April 11th, 2016, 07:08 PM
Back to the subject.

Galatians 3

24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Jacob
April 11th, 2016, 07:10 PM
Then why not study what I posted? I posted from your apostle, Paul. This is what he said.

Romans 4

3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:


7
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;

8
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised.

These are great Nick M. I do have no argument with scripture. I am confused by what you are wanting to communicate, however.

Jacob
April 11th, 2016, 07:12 PM
Back to the subject.

Galatians 3

24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

If you have been brought to Christ you are no longer under the tutor of the law. (If you have been brought to Christ you have been saved by Christ.) But you are to obey God. The question is if this includes obedience to the law. The question is not if salvation is by works or obedience.

Nick M
April 11th, 2016, 08:35 PM
These are great Nick M. I do have no argument with scripture. I am confused by what you are wanting to communicate, however.

The Israelites have an everlasting covenant with God. They are required to do certain works. That is not for me.

patrick jane
April 11th, 2016, 08:54 PM
If you have been brought to Christ you are no longer under the tutor of the law. (If you have been brought to Christ you have been saved by Christ.) But you are to obey God. The question is if this includes obedience to the law. The question is not if salvation is by works or obedience.
Romans 11:6 KJV

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Jacob
April 11th, 2016, 08:59 PM
The Israelites have an everlasting covenant with God. They are required to do certain works. That is not for me.

I don't know what works you are speaking of. But I do want to know if you believe you ought to (should) obey Jesus.

Jacob
April 11th, 2016, 09:01 PM
Romans 11:6 KJV

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

I believe you at least understand what the question is not. Or, can you explain what you are understanding or wanting to teach me?

jamie
April 11th, 2016, 09:03 PM
But you are to obey God. The question is if this includes obedience to the law.



So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. (James 2:12)

The Law of Liberty is a perfect law.


But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. (James 1:25)

Jacob
April 11th, 2016, 09:05 PM
So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. (James 2:12)

The Law of Liberty is a perfect law.


But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. (James 1:25)

I acknowledge there is a law of liberty and that I should be obedient to God.

patrick jane
April 11th, 2016, 09:39 PM
I acknowledge there is a law of liberty and that I should be obedient to God.
You can't be obedient to God, nobody can, so get that out of your head. Think like a sinner

Jacob
April 11th, 2016, 09:40 PM
You can't be obedient to God, nobody can, so get that out of your head. Think like a sinner
Are you edifying the church?

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

patrick jane
April 11th, 2016, 09:41 PM
So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. (James 2:12)

The Law of Liberty is a perfect law.

But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. (James 1:25)


James 1:11 KJV -

patrick jane
April 11th, 2016, 09:44 PM
Are you edifying the church?

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
Yes. You have this flawed idea that there is something YOU DO.

Galatians 3:3 KJV -

Jacob
April 11th, 2016, 09:50 PM
Yes. You have this flawed idea that there is something YOU DO.

Galatians 3:3 KJV -
Not for salvation, but in obedience yes there is something I do. Obedience is action, something you do. That is why good and correct thinking is important. Works that God has for you to do. And think on the things God wants you to think on. This is something else you can do. So there is thinking in obedience to God and external action (that which you do which, or that, is outside of you). May you do good works that benefit others for the kingdom of God.

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patrick jane
April 11th, 2016, 09:56 PM
Not for salvation, but in obedience yes there is something I do. Obedience is action, something you do. That is why good and correct thinking is important. Works that God has for you to do. And think on the things God wants you to think on. This is something else you can do. So there is thinking in obedience to God and external action (that which you do which, or that, is outside of you). May you do good works that benefit others for the kingdom of God.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

OK, at least you know your works are not for salvation. Keep up the good works and keep obeying !

Jacob
April 11th, 2016, 09:58 PM
OK, at least you know your works are not for salvation. Keep up the good works and keep obeying !
Thank you for the encouragement.

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Epoisses
April 11th, 2016, 11:14 PM
Your opinion on Godís Law. Do you believe Godís Law is only for pointing out sin in a personís life so that they can understand their need for a Savior and be saved by God and Jesus? Or, do you believe Godís Law is also to be obeyed, or is also for our obedience?

Yes God's law of love is to be obeyed.

Epoisses
April 11th, 2016, 11:18 PM
If you have been brought to Christ you are no longer under the tutor of the law. (If you have been brought to Christ you have been saved by Christ.) But you are to obey God. The question is if this includes obedience to the law. The question is not if salvation is by works or obedience.

We are to obey the Spirit of the law which is God's love written in the heart not the old form of the letter or commandments.

Epoisses
April 11th, 2016, 11:19 PM
Not for salvation, but in obedience yes there is something I do. Obedience is action, something you do. That is why good and correct thinking is important. Works that God has for you to do. And think on the things God wants you to think on. This is something else you can do. So there is thinking in obedience to God and external action (that which you do which, or that, is outside of you). May you do good works that benefit others for the kingdom of God.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

You need to obey the gospel and you're not 'doing' that.

Jacob
April 12th, 2016, 12:01 AM
We are to obey the Spirit of the law which is God's love written in the heart not the old form of the letter or commandments.

I know about the Spirit of God but I don't know that I can find the spirit of the law idea in scripture.

Jacob
April 12th, 2016, 12:02 AM
You need to obey the gospel and you're not 'doing' that.
I'm not sure what you mean so I don't know how to answer.

Jacob
April 12th, 2016, 12:04 AM
Yes God's law of love is to be obeyed.

The Law is about love of God and love of our neighbor, our fellow man. Jesus taught this, teaching the same. To obey God's command to love is important for each and every one of us. I don't know what you mean by law of love.

Nick M
April 12th, 2016, 06:48 AM
I don't know what works you are speaking of. But I do want to know if you believe you ought to (should) obey Jesus.

All in one sentence. You should change your screen name back. I don't know what else to tell you.

Epoisses
April 12th, 2016, 07:18 AM
The Law is about love of God and love of our neighbor, our fellow man. Jesus taught this, teaching the same. To obey God's command to love is important for each and every one of us. I don't know what you mean by law of love.

Love is the new and greatest commandment, the Spirit of the law and the royal law of scripture. Love is the spiritual law that all Christians obey. No love means you're not a Christian. Rejecting God's love to go back to the old covenant means you're not a Christian. Paul said that those who trust in the works of the law are fallen from grace.

jamie
April 12th, 2016, 07:42 AM
Rejecting God's love to go back to the old covenant means you're not a Christian. Paul said that those who trust in the works of the law are fallen from grace.


If by "old covenant" you mean the covenant God made with Israel through Moses, it no longer exists.

There are no works of a law that no longer exists.

Epoisses
April 12th, 2016, 09:45 AM
If by "old covenant" you mean the covenant God made with Israel through Moses, it no longer exists.

There are no works of a law that no longer exists.

So why do so many including yourself push obedience thru law?

Jacob
April 12th, 2016, 10:30 AM
All in one sentence. You should change your screen name back. I don't know what else to tell you.

My name is Jacob and I am totally fine with that.

Jacob
April 12th, 2016, 10:31 AM
Love is the new and greatest commandment, the Spirit of the law and the royal law of scripture. Love is the spiritual law that all Christians obey. No love means you're not a Christian. Rejecting God's love to go back to the old covenant means you're not a Christian. Paul said that those who trust in the works of the law are fallen from grace.

This is not about the works of the law. The Law contains commandment to love God and your neighbor.

Hawkins
April 12th, 2016, 10:46 AM
Your opinion on God’s Law. Do you believe God’s Law is only for pointing out sin in a person’s life so that they can understand their need for a Savior and be saved by God and Jesus? Or, do you believe God’s Law is also to be obeyed, or is also for our obedience?

Sin is a trespass of the Law, it's an offense to God. We don't continue to sin after being saved. That says we still need to obey Law after being saved, unless you want to offend God Himself willfully. Our righteousness is not measured by Law though. It is because God doesn't expect as to obey Law perfectly, or else we don't need Jesus Christ. He expects us to obey the Law but will fail here and there. James said that when we fail at one point, we thus fail the Law as a whole.

As a result, we need to first secure our salvation by following Jesus Christ's teachings and commands, to make sure that we will be saved by faith. Then we need to obey the Law in order to try our best not to offend God. Look for God's forgiveness shall you failed at some point.

Law on the other hand, refers to the set of Law attached to our default covenant which is born with us. As a gentile, you need to obey the Law God has written in our hearts. As a Jew, you thus need to obey the Mosaic Law. If you failed the Mosaic Law as a Jew, which actually makes you a gentile instead of a Jews. The New Covenant still applies under both circumstance. That is, whether you are a Jew or a gentile you can be saved by faith as the ultimate Grace granted through Jesus Christ.

heir
April 12th, 2016, 10:49 AM
Your opinion on God’s Law. Do you believe God’s Law is only for pointing out sin in a person’s life so that they can understand their need for a Savior and be saved by God and Jesus? Or, do you believe God’s Law is also to be obeyed, or is also for our obedience?The lawful use of the law is to show from the scriptures the need for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.

heir
April 12th, 2016, 10:52 AM
Sin is a trespass of the Law, it's an offense to God. We don't continue to sin after being saved. That says we still need to obey Law after being saved, unless you want to offend God Himself willfully. Our righteousness is not measured by Law though. It is because God doesn't expect as to obey Law perfectly, or else we don't need Jesus Christ. He expects us to obey the Law but will fail here and there. James said that when we fail at one point, we thus fail the Law as a whole.

As a result, we need to first secure our salvation by following Jesus Christ's teachings and commands, to make sure that we will be saved by faith. Then we need to obey the Law in order to try our best not to offend God. Look for God's forgiveness shall you failed at some point.

Law on the other hand, refers to the set of Law attached to our default covenant which is born with us. As a gentile, you need to obey the Law God has written in our hearts. As a Jew, you thus need to obey the Mosaic Law. If you failed the Mosaic Law as a Jew, which actually makes you a gentile instead of a Jews. The New Covenant still applies under both circumstance. That is, whether you are a Jew or a gentile you can be saved by faith as the ultimate Grace granted through Jesus Christ.Another poster in ignorance of the but now where the righteousness of God without the law by the faith of Jesus Christ is manifested (Romans 3:21-22 KJV).

Hawkins
April 12th, 2016, 10:55 AM
Another poster in ignorance of the but now where the righteousness of God without the law by the faith of Jesus Christ is manifested (Romans 3:21-22 KJV).

Do you mean to say that we should sin at will? It's you who are ignorant, and clueless too!

Romans 3:21 (NIV)
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.


It means that our righteousness is no longer measured by Law, just like I said in my previous post.

heir
April 12th, 2016, 11:01 AM
Sin is a trespass of the Law, it's an offense to God.How many of your trespasses are not forgiven?
We don't continue to sin after being saved. Those who are saved are dead to the law by the body of Christ (Romans 7:4 KJV)
That says we still need to obey Law after being saved, unless you want to offend God Himself willfully.Galatians 4:9 KJV
Our righteousness is not measured by Law though. We don't have any except that of the Lord Jesus Christ imputed up[on us (Romans 3:21-22 KJV). Do you have IT?
It is because God doesn't expect as to obey Law perfectly, or else we don't need Jesus Christ. Galatians 2:21 KJV
He expects us to obey the Law but will fail here and there.Galatians 5:2 KJV
James said that when we fail at one point, we thus fail the Law as a whole. If James 2:10 KJV is written TO you, you're in a heap of trouble then.


As a result, we need to first secure our salvation by following Jesus Christ's teachings and commands, to make sure that we will be saved by faith.That is not the gospel of your salvation.
Then we need to obey the Law in order to try our best not to offend God.Your trying to keep it for salvation is the offence (Galatians 5:11 KJV)
Look for God's forgiveness shall you failed at some point.Why don't you already have it?

heir
April 12th, 2016, 11:04 AM
Do you mean to say that we should sin at will? It's you who are ignorant, and clueless too!

Romans 3:21 (NIV)
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.


It means that our righteousness is no longer measured by Law, just like I said in my previous post.We don't have righteousness (Romans 3:10-12 KJV). The righteousness ibn the but now which is unto all and upon all them that believe is the righteousness of God by the faith OF Jesus Christ! It's the standard and there's only one way to get it.

heir
April 12th, 2016, 11:06 AM
Do you mean to say that we should sin at will? It's you who are ignorant, and clueless too!
Christ died for our sins, was buried and rose again the third day according to the scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV)! Christ ROSE victorious! He was raised again for our justification proving that God the Father accepted Christ's FULL PAYMENT for the wages of sin which is death (Romans 5:12 KJV, Romans 6:23 KJV).

Sin/sins is NOT THE ISSUE today! All of the work necessary to save anyone today was accomplished by God through the faith and finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ in the WORLD'S place!

2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJVWho will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

If you at this moment are an unbeliever (and your posts testify that you are), the only thing stopping you from being saved is your unbelief because even though the righteousness of God available UNTO YOU by the faith of Jesus Christ, it is not UPON YOU until that moment in your life when you trust the Lord believing Christ died for your sins according to the scriptures and that He was buried and rose again the third day according to the scriptures. Trust the Lord for salvation and the righteousness of God will be imputed to you (Romans 3:21-22, Romans 4:23-25)

Jacob
April 12th, 2016, 11:09 AM
Sin is a trespass of the Law, it's an offense to God. We don't continue to sin after being saved. That says we still need to obey Law after being saved, unless you want to offend God Himself willfully. Our righteousness is not measured by Law though. It is because God doesn't expect as to obey Law perfectly, or else we don't need Jesus Christ. He expects us to obey the Law but will fail here and there. James said that when we fail at one point, we thus fail the Law as a whole.

As a result, we need to first secure our salvation by following Jesus Christ's teachings and commands, to make sure that we will be saved by faith. Then we need to obey the Law in order to try our best not to offend God. Look for God's forgiveness shall you failed at some point.

Law on the other hand, refers to the set of Law attached to our default covenant which is born with us. As a gentile, you need to obey the Law God has written in our hearts. As a Jew, you thus need to obey the Mosaic Law. If you failed the Mosaic Law as a Jew, which actually makes you a gentile instead of a Jews. The New Covenant still applies under both circumstance. That is, whether you are a Jew or a gentile you can be saved by faith as the ultimate Grace granted through Jesus Christ.

I believe you are saying the new covenant and salvation by faith is for both Jew and those under the Law and Gentile and those not under the Law.

A Christian is not under the Law. Christians are not to transgress God's Law. Christians have been born again, not of works, and have salvation by grace through faith. A Christian may be a Jew or a Greek/Gentile.

Are you a new creature in Christ? Are you saved by grace through faith, not of works?

Jacob
April 12th, 2016, 11:12 AM
The lawful use of the law is to show from the scriptures the need for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.

The Law is for sinners and it does show sinners their sin and need for a Savior, God and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Do those who are saved sin? What do you think? Sin is transgression of the Law and Christians are not or should not be law-breakers / transgressors.

PneumaPsucheSoma
April 12th, 2016, 11:46 AM
The Mosaic Law was a COVENANT, not legislation; and its existence was provision for the Theocracy of Israel to fulfill the Abrahamic Covenant of Faith.

Law (in Greek) is nomos... distribution, allocation, allotement, assignment, apportionment. As a noun, nomos is the thing distributed, which is God's righteousness as the standard for inward character and outward conduct.

Any conversation about law as legislation is not valid. Jesus Christ was the final and personified distribution of God's righteousness, into whom we are translated. The law ceased in Christ, who is the law for all everlasting.

PneumaPsucheSoma
April 12th, 2016, 11:49 AM
The Law is for sinners and it does show sinners their sin and need for a Savior, God and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Do those who are saved sin? What do you think? Sin is transgression of the Law and Christians are not or should not be law-breakers / transgressors.

Sin is trangression of the law, yes. And sin, transgression, and law are all NOUNS in that passage, not verbs.

jamie
April 12th, 2016, 11:51 AM
The Law of Moses does not exist today. God ended it in 70 CE when he destroyed his Temple. The Temple was an integral part of Israel's law.

The Temple is gone, the Levitical priesthood is gone and the Mosaic law is gone. Let's move on.

Jacob
April 12th, 2016, 11:54 AM
The Mosaic Law was a COVENANT, not legislation; and its existence was provision for the Theocracy of Israel to fulfill the Abrahamic Covenant of Faith.

Law (in Greek) is nomos... distribution, allocation, allotement, assignment, apportionment. As a noun, nomos is the thing distributed, which is God's righteousness as the standard for inward character and outward conduct.

Any conversation about law as legislation is not valid. Jesus Christ was the final and personified distribution of God's righteousness, into whom we are translated. The law ceased in Christ, who is the law for all everlasting.

I don't see it as legislation. Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, but to fulfill.

Jacob
April 12th, 2016, 11:56 AM
The Law of Moses does not exist today. God ended it in 70 CE when he destroyed his Temple. The Temple was an integral part of Israel's law.

The Temple is gone, the Levitical priesthood is gone and the Mosaic law is gone. Let's move on.

The temple had been destroyed before, but it was rebuilt.

jamie
April 12th, 2016, 11:56 AM
Sin/sins is NOT THE ISSUE today! All of the work necessary to save anyone today was accomplished by God through the faith and finished work of the Lord Jesus Christ in the WORLD'S place!


Is that why Paul said we must reverently work out our own salvation?

It's easy to talk the talk, but we need to also walk the walk. We must overcome our innate propensity to sin.

heir
April 12th, 2016, 12:03 PM
Is that why Paul said we must reverently work out our own salvation?It certainly does not say "work for your own salvation" (Philippians 2:12 KJV) as you would like it to! How many of your sins did Christ not die for?


It's easy to talk the talk, but we need to also walk the walk. We must overcome our innate propensity to sin.Your walk is between you and the Lord and is for reward, not salvation (1 Corinthians 3:10-15 KJV). You need concern yourself with the seven fold unity of the Spirit that YOU are endevour to keep (Ephesians 4:1-5 KJV).

heir
April 12th, 2016, 12:07 PM
The Law is for sinners and it does show sinners their sin and need for a Savior, God and Jesus Christ our Lord.

Do those who are saved sin? What do you think? Sin is transgression of the Law and Christians are not or should not be law-breakers / transgressors.We are dead to the law by the Body of Christ. You keep wanting to put a yoke of bondage on us and you are wrong to do so. Get over the law and get on with the ministry of reconciliation!

PneumaPsucheSoma
April 12th, 2016, 12:11 PM
I don't see it as legislation. Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, but to fulfill.

You missed the part where nomos (law) is distribution, and He fulfilled it by being the final distribution of God's righteousness.

Law, as a noun, is the thing distributed. Christ was distributed in the Incarnation. He is the law, having fulfilled the anarthrous of the noun law.

Jacob
April 12th, 2016, 12:13 PM
We are dead to the law by the Body of Christ. You keep wanting to put a yoke of bondage on us and you are wrong to do so. Get over the law and get on with the ministry of reconciliation!

I am talking about the content of 1 Timothy 1.

PneumaPsucheSoma
April 12th, 2016, 12:13 PM
The temple had been destroyed before, but it was rebuilt.

And Jesus rebuilt the temple in three days, just as He promised. That was the resurrection, and He is the temple not made with hands into whom we are translated and are that same temple.

There is no need for another physical temple. The final rebuilt temple is Him and all who believe.

Jacob
April 12th, 2016, 12:14 PM
You missed the part where nomos (law) is distribution, and He fulfilled it by being the final distribution of God's righteousness.

Law, as a noun, is the thing distributed. Christ was distributed in the Incarnation. He is the law, having fulfilled the anarthrous of the noun law.
Jesus observed and taught the Law. But the word nomos is a Greek word.

jamie
April 12th, 2016, 12:15 PM
It certainly does not say "work for your own salvation" (Philippians 2:12 KJV)


And I did not quote it that way. Why are you misrepresenting what I said?

meshak
April 12th, 2016, 12:15 PM
You missed the part where nomos (law) is distribution, and He fulfilled it by being the final distribution of God's righteousness.

Law, as a noun, is the thing distributed. Christ was distributed in the Incarnation. He is the law, having fulfilled the anarthrous of the noun law.

What is your point?

Are you saying Jesus' followers don't have to keep His law?

PneumaPsucheSoma
April 12th, 2016, 12:16 PM
How many of your sins did Christ not die for?

He was made (poieo) sin (singular anarthrous noun) for us. That's not the individual doing and done of sinning and sins.

PneumaPsucheSoma
April 12th, 2016, 12:18 PM
Jesus observed and taught the Law. But the word nomos is a Greek word.

And the Ten "Commandments" were the Ten "Words".

The Greek represents the Hebrew. Both are inspired.

heir
April 12th, 2016, 12:18 PM
I am talking about the content of 1 Timothy 1.

The lawful use of the law is to show someone BY THE SCRIPTURES that they need the Saviour. It certainly is not to show anyone that justification and/or righteousness come by it (Galatians 2:16 KJV. Galatians 2:21 KJV). To place yourself under it is to fall from grace (Galatians 5:4 KJV). Now, get on with the ministry of reconciliation! Show someone how that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them (2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV). Tell them how to be saved and sealed (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV, Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV)!

meshak
April 12th, 2016, 12:18 PM
PPS,

There are many so called "Christians" claim they don't have to keep Jesus' law because His word is just for the Jews and not for the gentiles.

are you one of them?

PneumaPsucheSoma
April 12th, 2016, 12:20 PM
What is your point?

Jesus Christ IS the law personified. Law is a noun, and is the distribution of God's righteousness.


Are you saying Jesus' followers don't have to keep His law?

I'm not even speaking to that context with what I've said. You don't understand what law is.

heir
April 12th, 2016, 12:21 PM
He was made (poieo) sin (singular anarthrous noun) for us. That's not the individual doing and done of sinning and sins.Christ died for our sins (plural)

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

after having been made sin (singular) for us!

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The question: "How many of your sins did Christ not die for?" is still waiting a response. How about it?

heir
April 12th, 2016, 12:22 PM
PPS,

There are many so called "Christians" claim they don't have to keep Jesus' law because His word is just for the Jews and not for the gentiles.

are you one of them?That's not why. Are you saved?

PneumaPsucheSoma
April 12th, 2016, 12:22 PM
PPS,

There are many so called "Christians" claim they don't have to keep Jesus' law because His word is just for the Jews and not for the gentiles.

are you one of them?

Being in Christ is the only way to keep the law.

The Mosaic Law was a Covenant. That same covenant was fulfilled and given to us in Christ. Faith HAS and WILL fulfill the law.

heir
April 12th, 2016, 12:24 PM
PPS,

There are many so called "Christians" claim they don't have to keep Jesus' law because His word is just for the Jews and not for the gentiles.

are you one of them?There are many so called "Christians" who are religious, but lost. Are you one of them? If there has never been a moment in your life when you trusted the Lord believing the gospel of YOUR salvation as the means by which we are saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV) you are not in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5 KJV). And since we see by your testimony over and over how you reject it, you are lost.

meshak
April 12th, 2016, 12:25 PM
Being in Christ is the only way to keep the law.

Yes.

Jesus was sent to give us power to overcome our sins.

PneumaPsucheSoma
April 12th, 2016, 12:28 PM
Christ died for our sins (plural)

Plural articular. And only because of 1Cor 5:21, as I indicated.


1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

after having been made sin (singular) for us!

Singular anarthrous. Not singular articular or the verb or the resulting act as a noun. The differences are huge.


2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The question: "How many of your sins did Christ not die for?" is still waiting a response. How about it?

None of what you've referenced from scripture are the doing or done of sinning or resulting sins. None are the final individual acts accomplished, so your question is fallacious because you don't understand Hamartiology.

Hamartiai (plural articular) is not the same noun as hamartema. But that won't matter to you. You want the answer to an incorrect question.

meshak
April 12th, 2016, 12:30 PM
Being in Christ is the only way to keep the law.

That does not mean, we are automatically faithful. It always requires a lot of effort to stay close to the Lord with humble attitude.

Salvation is not one time confession.

SaulToPaul
April 12th, 2016, 12:30 PM
Plural articular. And only because of 1Cor 5:21, as I indicated.



Singular anarthrous. Not singular articular or the verb or the resulting act as a noun. The differences are huge.



None of what you've referenced from scripture are the doing or done of sinning or resulting sins. None are the final individual acts accomplished, so your question is fallacious because you don't understand Hamartiology.

Hamartiai (plural articular) is not the same noun as hamartema. But that won't matter to you. You want the answer to an incorrect question.

Ontologically speaking...

PneumaPsucheSoma
April 12th, 2016, 12:39 PM
Ontologically speaking...

Actually, yes. Too bad you and all your cohorts don't spend the time to comprehend the basics of Greek grammar contrasted with English grammar. Then you wouldn't have to build subtly false doctrines and look foolish without realizing it as you mock others who know the truth you've passively denied, even if you're allegedly well-meaning.

SaulToPaul
April 12th, 2016, 12:41 PM
Too bad you and all your cohorts don't spend the time to comprehend the basics of Greek grammar contrasted with English grammar.

I believe the English, ontologically.

Jacob
April 12th, 2016, 12:54 PM
And the Ten "Commandments" were the Ten "Words".

The Greek represents the Hebrew. Both are inspired.

Of course both are inspired. The Law, or God's Law, does involve instruction in the New Testament writings. But the Law is the Torah, the first five books of the Bible, or the Law of Moses, God's Law (the Law of God).

Jacob
April 12th, 2016, 12:55 PM
The lawful use of the law is to show someone BY THE SCRIPTURES that they need the Saviour. It certainly is not to show anyone that justification and/or righteousness come by it (Galatians 2:16 KJV. Galatians 2:21 KJV). To place yourself under it is to fall from grace (Galatians 5:4 KJV). Now, get on with the ministry of reconciliation! Show someone how that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them (2 Corinthians 5:19 KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV). Tell them how to be saved and sealed (1 Corinthians 15:1-4 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 KJV, Ephesians 2:8-9 KJV)!

The question is if unbelievers should be taught to obey God or if this is only for believers. Salvation is not by works is not disputed.

PneumaPsucheSoma
April 12th, 2016, 01:03 PM
I believe the English, ontologically.

You actually don't. You believe what you presume English translations say.

patrick jane
April 12th, 2016, 01:16 PM
You actually don't. You believe what you presume English translations say.
So you advise that everyone learn a higher content language other than the mastery of their own native tongue ? What other languages can you speak and write fluently without help ?

PneumaPsucheSoma
April 12th, 2016, 01:23 PM
So you advise that everyone learn a higher content language other than the mastery of their own native tongue ?

No. I've always insisted the contrary. But one must know how the structure of the English language affects human epistemology. English will either misrepresent the inspired text without English speakers realizing it, or it will explicitly express the exact content of the Greek text. The latter virtually never happens because of the former.

The problem is always presuming that one knows what one doesn't know. I could solve the problem in a few weeks with any individual Believer. I do it all the time and the truth changes lives. Ontologically.


What other languages can you speak and write fluently without help ?

German, from which much of English is derived for colloquial use. Why?

PneumaPsucheSoma
April 12th, 2016, 01:28 PM
So you advise that everyone learn a higher content language other than the mastery of their own native tongue ? What other languages can you speak and write fluently without help ?

And one does not have "mastery" over their own native tongue if one doesn't understand the necessary comparative structures of languages, especially for tranlsation.

meshak
April 12th, 2016, 01:36 PM
And one does not have "mastery" over their own native tongue if one doesn't understand the necessary comparative structures of languages, especially for tranlsation.

Christianity is all about salvation.

Jesus taught us plainly and clearly without relying onto high education.

those who seem to claim to have secret knowledge or mysterious knowledge are making simple salvation so complicated.

Most denominations or organizations are guilty of doing this.

We can get overall Jesus' messages without relying on to scholars.

It is a grave sin to make simple salvation complicated.

this kind of thread is adding more confusion to already confused or chaotic Christianity.

meshak
April 12th, 2016, 01:40 PM
debating such as this is just a Christian game. It is not of Jesus.

meshak
April 12th, 2016, 01:42 PM
there are many, many debating game going on.

Nick M
April 12th, 2016, 03:29 PM
This is not about the works of the law. The Law contains commandment to love God and your neighbor.


Deuteronomy 6

5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

If you loved your neighbor, you would not steal his wallet. I can't wait for this one.

Nick M
April 12th, 2016, 03:29 PM
debating such as this is just a Christian game. It is not of Jesus.

Then why are you here? You are a servant of satan.

Jacob
April 12th, 2016, 03:36 PM
Deuteronomy 6

5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.

If you loved your neighbor, you would not steal his wallet. I can't wait for this one.

There is no reason for you to take anyone's wallet.

Nick M
April 12th, 2016, 03:52 PM
There is no reason for you to take anyone's wallet.

You said it is not about works of the law. The Lord Jesus Christ said love God with all your heart, and your neighbor. And he said all the law hangs on this. What is your response to being shown that the law is love?

Jacob
April 12th, 2016, 04:06 PM
You said it is not about works of the law. The Lord Jesus Christ said love God with all your heart, and your neighbor. And he said all the law hangs on this. What is your response to being shown that the law is love?

Jesus observed and taught the Law. I have been telling people the Law is about love of God and love of your neighbor. This is stated, or found, in the Torah, the Law (the first five books of the Bible).

Epoisses
April 12th, 2016, 11:04 PM
Jesus observed and taught the Law. I have been telling people the Law is about love of God and love of your neighbor. This is stated, or found, in the Torah, the Law (the first five books of the Bible).

The commandment to love in the law was fear based and nothing like the 'agape' love of Christ in the NT. Love in the Torah had to be performed just like all the other commandments but love in the NT is a gift of the Holy Spirit that is received by faith. I don't 'do' love, I receive it as a gift. You're a law monger and will never understand unconditional love.

Jacob
April 12th, 2016, 11:22 PM
The commandment to love in the law was fear based and nothing like the 'agape' love of Christ in the NT. Love in the Torah had to be performed just like all the other commandments but love in the NT is a gift of the Holy Spirit that is received by faith. I don't 'do' love, I receive it as a gift. You're a law monger and will never understand unconditional love.

Do you see that we are to love God and our neighbor, according to the Law and according to Jesus who observed and taught the Law? It has nothing to do with fear.

Epoisses
April 12th, 2016, 11:24 PM
Do you see that we are to love God and our neighbor, according to the Law and according to Jesus who observed and taught the Law? It has nothing to do with fear.

You can't love because you're a sinner and you also reject the gospel so you can keep the law. Jesus said of people like you that you have left your first love and Paul said of people like you that you are fallen from grace.

Jacob
April 12th, 2016, 11:34 PM
You can't love because you're a sinner and you also reject the gospel so you can keep the law. Jesus said of people like you that you have left your first love and Paul said of people like you that you are fallen from grace.I don't do any such thing. I accept the Law of Moses for that which it is, God's Law. I also believe the gospel.

Deuteronomy 6:5 NASB - 5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

Leviticus 19:18 NASB - 18 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

Psalm 94:12 NASB - 12 Blessed is the man whom You chasten, O LORD, And whom You teach out of Your law;

Psalm 119:18 NASB - 18 Open my eyes, that I may behold Wonderful things from Your law.

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 NASB - 19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

Galatians 5:18 NASB - 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Crucible
April 12th, 2016, 11:57 PM
A lot of the Law was meant to discipline reprobates- it was basically government with a sleight of hand on Godly principle, but was merciless because Christ had yet to pay the blood price.

People make rocket science out of nothing :rolleyes:

SonOfCaleb
April 13th, 2016, 08:23 AM
Your opinion on God’s Law. Do you believe God’s Law is only for pointing out sin in a person’s life so that they can understand their need for a Savior and be saved by God and Jesus? Or, do you believe God’s Law is also to be obeyed, or is also for our obedience?

There is no 'Law' anymore. The Mosaic Law is defunct. It served its purpose and has been superceded effectively by the 'Law' of Christ.

The Pharisees turned the Mosaic Law into a joke. They never worshipped nor taught in the 'spirit' of the Law but rather taught the letter of the Law adding many unscriptural laws and traditions that were cumbersome for the Israselites to observe. Thus the Pharisees with their man made intepretations trivialised the law of God which was a law of love.
The laws intent was never to point out who and who were not sinners. It was there to provide council and guidance so the Israelites could remain a consecrated and holy people before God setting an example for the surrounding nations.
Faithful Abraham, Job, Enoch, Noah, Jacob, Issac etc all were men of faith who as according to Paul lived according to the 'Law' and yet none of those men had the Mosaic Law to observe. Thus the theme we see throughout the scriptures is obedience to God brings blessings. We see this in the history of the Jews when they were obedient as well as Jesus sentiments in the Greek Scriptures at Matthew 23:23 "but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness".

Epoisses
April 13th, 2016, 08:27 AM
I don't do any such thing. I accept the Law of Moses for that which it is, God's Law. I also believe the gospel.

Deuteronomy 6:5 NASB - 5 "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

Leviticus 19:18 NASB - 18 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD.

Psalm 94:12 NASB - 12 Blessed is the man whom You chasten, O LORD, And whom You teach out of Your law;

Psalm 119:18 NASB - 18 Open my eyes, that I may behold Wonderful things from Your law.

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 NASB - 19 For though I am free from all men, I have made myself a slave to all, so that I may win more. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law; 21 to those who are without law, as without law, though not being without the law of God but under the law of Christ, so that I might win those who are without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some. 23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.

Galatians 5:18 NASB - 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

The last verse refutes everything you said, lol.

WE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW!

jamie
April 13th, 2016, 08:35 AM
The commandment to love in the law was fear based and nothing like the 'agape' love of Christ in the NT.


Because of sin, Christ gave the law through Moses to his people to guide them in living righteous lives.

Epoisses
April 13th, 2016, 08:39 AM
Because of sin, Christ gave the law through Moses to his people to guide them in living righteous lives.Before the cross he did, since then it has expired and God's people are guided by the Spirit.

jamie
April 13th, 2016, 08:55 AM
Before the cross he did, since then it has expired and God's people are guided by the Spirit.


At Horeb, the rock symbolized Christ and the water symbolized the holy Spirit from which all the people drank.

Epoisses
April 13th, 2016, 09:36 AM
At Horeb, the rock symbolized Christ and the water symbolized the holy Spirit from which all the people drank.

So what! We are under grace today not law.

Jacob
April 13th, 2016, 09:43 AM
There is no 'Law' anymore. The Mosaic Law is defunct. It served its purpose and has been superceded effectively by the 'Law' of Christ.

The Pharisees turned the Mosaic Law into a joke. They never worshipped nor taught in the 'spirit' of the Law but rather taught the letter of the Law adding many unscriptural laws and traditions that were cumbersome for the Israselites to observe. Thus the Pharisees with their man made intepretations trivialised the law of God which was a law of love.
The laws intent was never to point out who and who were not sinners. It was there to provide council and guidance so the Israelites could remain a consecrated and holy people before God setting an example for the surrounding nations.
Faithful Abraham, Job, Enoch, Noah, Jacob, Issac etc all were men of faith who as according to Paul lived according to the 'Law' and yet none of those men had the Mosaic Law to observe. Thus the theme we see throughout the scriptures is obedience to God brings blessings. We see this in the history of the Jews when they were obedient as well as Jesus sentiments in the Greek Scriptures at Matthew 23:23 "but you have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness".

The law of Christ is mentioned twice in the scriptures. The Law of Moses, as far as I can tell from scripture, does not have an end in that it is eternal or everlasting or God's word forever.

Jacob
April 13th, 2016, 09:45 AM
The last verse refutes everything you said, lol.

WE ARE NOT UNDER THE LAW!

If I am saying we as Christians are not under the Law, and I am, that does not refute anything I have said. I don't know what you are seeing that you think I am not seeing.

Epoisses
April 13th, 2016, 09:45 AM
The law of Christ is mentioned twice in the scriptures. The Law of Moses, as far as I can tell from scripture, does not have an end.

Read Hebrews it did have an end.

Jacob
April 13th, 2016, 09:46 AM
Read Hebrews it did have an end.

Read the Torah. Read Hebrews. Read Jeremiah before Hebrews. There is a new covenant not like the old.

Epoisses
April 13th, 2016, 09:47 AM
If I am saying we as Christians are not under the Law, and I am, that does not refute anything I have said. I don't know what you are seeing that you think I am not seeing.

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth Jacob. We are either under the law (governed by it) or we are not. Christians who are under grace are guided by the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of truth tells us right from wrong making the law with the written code obsolete.

Epoisses
April 13th, 2016, 09:48 AM
Read the Torah. Read Hebrews. Read Jeremiah before Hebrews. There is a new covenant not like the old.

Yes the new covenant of grace has replaced the covenant of law. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Jacob
April 13th, 2016, 09:50 AM
You're talking out of both sides of you mount Jacob. We are either under the law (governed by it) or we are not. Christians we are under grace are guided by the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of truth tells us right from wrong making the law with the written code obsolete.

What is becoming obsolete? Was it becoming obsolete before Christ (see Jeremiah, interpret reading Hebrews) but it is no longer becoming obsolete. That is the question with this verse in Hebrews.

We live by the Spirit and we are not under the Law. That does not abolish the Law.

Jacob
April 13th, 2016, 09:53 AM
Yes the new covenant of grace has replaced the covenant of law. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

The Law of Moses is God's instruction to the nation of Israel through the prophet Moses. The whole world is accountable to God by it.

What do you mean when you say the new covenant of grace has replaced the covenant of law? What new covenant of grace, and why do you say the covenant of law or that the covenant of law has been replaced? What covenant of law?

The Law of Moses corresponds to the old covenant, the covenant God made with the nation of Israel.

Epoisses
April 13th, 2016, 09:54 AM
We live by the Spirit and we are not under the Law. That does not abolish the Law. If I open my bible today the law (5 books of Moses) are still there but they have been fulfilled by Christ. Jesus fulfilled every type and shadow of the law so he has control now not the law.

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Heb. 8:13

Jacob
April 13th, 2016, 09:55 AM
If I open my bible today the law (5 books of Moses) are still there but they have been fulfilled by Christ. Jesus fulfilled every type and shadow of the law so he has control now not the law.

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. Heb. 8:13

Do you remember that the fault was not with the Law but with the people who broke it?

Epoisses
April 13th, 2016, 09:56 AM
The Law of Moses is God's instruction to the nation of Israel through the prophet Moses. The whole world is accountable to God by it.

I'm not going to debate ad nauseam with a law monger. If you want to keep the law go keep it, maybe you'll learn something.

Jacob
April 13th, 2016, 09:57 AM
I'm not going to debate ad nauseam with a law monger. If you want to keep the law go keep it, maybe you'll learn something.

I have been keeping God's Law and I don't see how anyone would ever say there is anything wrong doing so. I am not under the Law. I don't know what you mean by law monger. I hope you don't have anything against God's Law.

Epoisses
April 13th, 2016, 09:57 AM
Do you remember that the fault was not with the Law but with the people who broke it? The law was faulty and the writer of Hebrews says this over and over. It could not remove sin so it was imperfect. The new or better covenant can remove all sin so it is superior.

Epoisses
April 13th, 2016, 09:59 AM
I have been keeping God's Law and I don't see how anyone would ever say there is anything wrong doing so. I am not under the Law. I don't know what you mean by law monger. I hope you don't have anything against God's Law.

You don't keep the law. You're not Jewish, there is no temple anymore and no priesthood. The law revolved around the temple and sacrificial offering - are you even aware of that?

Jacob
April 13th, 2016, 09:59 AM
The law was faulty and the writer of Hebrews says this over and over. It could not remove sin so it was imperfect. The new or better covenant can remove all sin so it is superior.

Jeremiah 31:31-32 NASB - 31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.

The Law of Moses is the Law of God. There is nothing wrong with God's Law.

Jacob
April 13th, 2016, 10:02 AM
You don't keep the law. You're not Jewish, there is no temple anymore and no priesthood. The law revolved around the temple and sacrificial offering - are you even aware of that?

I am both Jewish and Christian, by choice. I am a Christian, a new covenant believer, and I practice Jewish things (such as the Ten Commandments, eating kosher foods, observing the feasts and holy days of Torah, etc...). I have learned much from obeying God's commands found in the covenant God made with the nation of Israel through the prophet Moses.

Jesus is my Lord. I obey God and Jesus. Jesus observed and taught the Law. He did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, but to fulfill.

Epoisses
April 13th, 2016, 10:04 AM
Jeremiah 31:31-32 NASB - 31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.

The Law of Moses is the Law of God. There is nothing wrong with God's Law.

The Spirit of the law or God's love is what is written in the heart. God doesn't write two tablets of stone in our heart. The law written in stone is said to be a ministry of death and condemnation 2Cor. 3.

Jacob
April 13th, 2016, 10:07 AM
The Spirit of the law or God's love is what is written in the heart. God doesn't write two tablets of stone in our heart. The law written in stone is said to be a ministry of death and condemnation 2Cor. 3.

Obeying God's commands is not what is wrong. What is wrong is that people don't, and that is called sin. The penalty for breaking the Law is there. And the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23 NASB). Has the penalty for breaking God's Law been taken out of the way?

As for the new covenant, it has already come, about 2000 years ago.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 NASB - 31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

Epoisses
April 13th, 2016, 10:08 AM
Obeying God's commands is not what is wrong. What is wrong is that people don't, and that is called sin. The penalty for breaking the Law is there. And the wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23 NASB). Has the penalty for breaking God's Law been taken out of the way?

As for the new covenant, it has already come, about 2000 years ago.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 NASB - 31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

You're not a Christian.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Gal. 5:4

Jacob
April 13th, 2016, 10:12 AM
You're not a Christian.

Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Gal. 5:4

I am not justified by law. No one is. That people would think they are is what Paul was addressing.

IMJerusha
April 13th, 2016, 10:12 AM
It boils down to the fact that just because one is a believer in Yeshua, he/she doesn't sin anymore; that we can no longer be tempted to sin. And what is it that defines sin for us?...God's Law. We can't honestly believe that Yeshua is not obedient to the Father any longer. Of course He is and as He is our example as High Priest, we too, as an expression of our love and the work of the Ruach in us, are also obedient. Yeshua is not our license but rather our liberty which means our choice...our ability to choose. If we drink the maddening wine of adultery, we had best be prepared to drink the wine of God's fury as well in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. Consider Revelation 14:12 which states that escape of God's fury "calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Yeshua."

heir
April 13th, 2016, 10:14 AM
Plural articular. And only because of 1Cor 5:21, as I indicated.



Singular anarthrous. Not singular articular or the verb or the resulting act as a noun. The differences are huge.



None of what you've referenced from scripture are the doing or done of sinning or resulting sins. None are the final individual acts accomplished, so your question is fallacious because you don't understand Hamartiology.

Hamartiai (plural articular) is not the same noun as hamartema. But that won't matter to you. You want the answer to an incorrect question.What extremes some will go to not answer a simple question. Pathetic.

Stripe
April 13th, 2016, 10:17 AM
Your opinion on Godís Law. Do you believe Godís Law is only for pointing out sin in a personís life so that they can understand their need for a Savior and be saved by God and Jesus? Or, do you believe Godís Law is also to be obeyed, or is also for our obedience?


While circumcised or not? There are two different answers to your question. For us today, this is it.

Galatians 3

24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

OP presents a false dichotomy, presenting an "either, or" scenario when the Bible teaches that the law has distinct purposes depending on a man's status in Jesus Christ, as Nick describes.

Jacob
April 13th, 2016, 10:18 AM
OP presents a false dichotomy, presenting an "either, or" scenario when the Bible teaches that the law has distinct purposes depending on a man's status in Jesus Christ, as Nick describes.

Are you saying you believe the Law has more than one purpose?

PneumaPsucheSoma
April 13th, 2016, 10:41 AM
What extremes some will go to not answer a simple question. Pathetic.

What's pathetic is your ignorant and heretical false doctrines and your lack of knowledge of your own language and the inspired languages of scripture that leave you unable to see that I very explicitly answered your question and exposed your false belief.

You don't know what sin is. You also don't know what most other words actually mean, though you use them constantly in some form with some replacement meaning you have to insist is accurate because you're an arrogant entitled princess deluded by her own false English perceptions.

If you don't know the basic difference between Greek articular/anarthrous nouns and English definite/indefinite article nouns, you can't even understand your KJVO text from its translators.

Your pride of life causes you to think your gnosis (knowledge) is the pinnacle of truth, when it's just puffed you up. If only you had love and faith, the former abounding in epignosis (knowledge) instead of your puffed up gnosis; with the latter being a synonym for faith.

You're clueless, and despising anyone who would dare challenge your dumbed-down false doctrines because of your cognitive dissonance. Self-righteous, thinking it's the imputed righteousness of God.

SonOfCaleb
April 13th, 2016, 11:53 AM
The law of Christ is mentioned twice in the scriptures. The Law of Moses, as far as I can tell from scripture, does not have an end in that it is eternal or everlasting or God's word forever.

No it is not. And there's no scripture anywhere in the Bible that supports such a position.

Paul said in Hebrews 7:22 "Jesus has accordingly become the guarantee of a better covenant".

1 Corinthians 9:21 "To those without law I became as without law, although I am not without law toward God but under law toward Christ, in order to gain those without law."

In fact Jeremiah prophesied this new law covenant at Jeremiah 31:31-34 "“Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant. 32 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, ‘my covenant that they broke, although I was their true master,’ declares Jehovah.”
33 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I will write it. And I will become their God, and they will become my people.”
34 “And they will no longer teach each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know Jehovah!’ for they will all know me, from the least to the greatest of them,” declares Jehovah. “For I will forgive their error, and I will no longer remember their sin".

The principles of the Mosaic Law of course still have validity. But the letter of the Mosaic Law no longer needs to be observed by Christians as attested to by Paul. If the Mosaic Law was valid the early Christians in 1AD would have continued to observe the Mosaic Law. All the available evidence in the Bible as well as secularly show a non observance of the Mosaic Law. In fact the heated debate that occurred between Paul and fellow Christians over the circumcision issue recorded in Romans 2:25, is further proof of the Mosaic Law being defunct, which was also covered in numerous letters by Paul to the congregations in Galatia and Corinth.

Stripe
April 13th, 2016, 11:57 AM
Are you saying you believe the Law has more than one purpose?

Not exactly. It plays different roles depending on a man's status in Jesus Christ.

Jacob
April 13th, 2016, 12:06 PM
No it is not. And there's no scripture anywhere in the Bible that supports such a position.

Paul said in Hebrews 7:22 "Jesus has accordingly become the guarantee of a better covenant".

1 Corinthians 9:21 "To those without law I became as without law, although I am not without law toward God but under law toward Christ, in order to gain those without law."

In fact Jeremiah prophesied this new law covenant at Jeremiah 31:31-34 "“Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant. 32 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, ‘my covenant that they broke, although I was their true master,’ declares Jehovah.”
33 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares Jehovah. “I will put my law within them, and in their heart I will write it. And I will become their God, and they will become my people.”
34 “And they will no longer teach each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know Jehovah!’ for they will all know me, from the least to the greatest of them,” declares Jehovah. “For I will forgive their error, and I will no longer remember their sin".

The principles of the Mosaic Law of course still have validity. But the letter of the Mosaic Law no longer needs to be observed by Christians as attested to by Paul. If the Mosaic Law was valid the early Christians in 1AD would have continued to observe the Mosaic Law. All the available evidence in the Bible as well as secularly show a non observance of the Mosaic Law. In fact the heated debate that occurred between Paul and fellow Christians over the circumcision issue recorded in Romans 2:25, is further proof of the Mosaic Law being defunct, which was also covered in numerous letters by Paul to the congregations in Galatia and Corinth.

You have an interesting perspective. I hope in all points you can give your reason from scripture, without a reasoning about the context for scripture that is inappropriate.

I don't know what you mean by new law covenant.

I believe God used Jeremiah to let us know of the coming of a new covenant, about 2000 years ago. Circumcision is not required of Gentiles.

Paul spoke of the proper use of the Law in 1 Timothy 1.

I don't know why people say the Law has come to an end. And I believe salvation has always been by faith, not by Law.

Jacob
April 13th, 2016, 12:06 PM
Not exactly. It plays different roles depending on a man's status in Jesus Christ.

Such as?

SonOfCaleb
April 13th, 2016, 12:07 PM
The law was faulty and the writer of Hebrews says this over and over. It could not remove sin so it was imperfect. The new or better covenant can remove all sin so it is superior.

The law wasn't faulty. Neither was it imperfect. It did after all come direct from God.

It was the Pharisee's who made the law cumbersome and misused it. The Israelite's disobeyed the Law, ignored it, or forgot about it. They polluted pure worship with the religious practices of other nations. And they betrayed the Law in other ways as well. In fact when the remnant returned from Babylon to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem many of them were not conversant in the law at all! It had to be taught to them by Ezra. By their actions alone they held the law in contempt and thus in many respects showed contempt for God the Law Giver.

Also Christs sacrifice doesn't remove our inherit sinfulness in the same way 'sin' offerings didn't remove the inherent sinfulness of the Israelite's.

jamie
April 13th, 2016, 12:07 PM
So what! We are under grace today not law.


Christ hasn't changed the means of salvation, it has always been by grace through faith. Abel received grace through faith.

SonOfCaleb
April 13th, 2016, 12:15 PM
I don't know what you mean by new law covenant.

I don't know why people say the Law has come to an end. And I believe salvation has always been by faith, not by Law.

Paul says the Mosaic Law was symbolically nailed to the stake Christ died on at Col 2:14 "and erased the handwritten document that consisted of decrees and was in opposition to us. He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake". This verse refers to the 'New Law Covenant that supersedes the Mosaic Law, ergo the "Law of Christ".

Hebrews 7:12 "For since the priesthood (Jesus is the head of this priesthood)is being changed, it becomes necessary to change the Law as well".

Hebrews 9:15 "That is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that because a death has occurred for their release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance".

Jacob
April 13th, 2016, 12:27 PM
Paul says the Mosaic Law was symbolically nailed to the stake Christ died on at Col 2:14 "and erased the handwritten document that consisted of decrees and was in opposition to us. He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake". This verse refers to the 'New Law Covenant that supersedes the Mosaic Law, ergo the "Law of Christ".

Hebrews 7:12 "For since the priesthood (Jesus is the head of this priesthood)is being changed, it becomes necessary to change the Law as well".

Hebrews 9:15 "That is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that because a death has occurred for their release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance".

The question is what is law in relation to the new covenant? Is there a new covenant law as there was a law with the old covenant?

heir
April 13th, 2016, 03:33 PM
What's pathetic is your ignorant and heretical false doctrines and your lack of knowledge of your own language and the inspired languages of scripture that leave you unable to see that I very explicitly answered your question and exposed your false belief.

You don't know what sin is. You also don't know what most other words actually mean, though you use them constantly in some form with some replacement meaning you have to insist is accurate because you're an arrogant entitled princess deluded by her own false English perceptions.

If you don't know the basic difference between Greek articular/anarthrous nouns and English definite/indefinite article nouns, you can't even understand your KJVO text from its translators.

Your pride of life causes you to think your gnosis (knowledge) is the pinnacle of truth, when it's just puffed you up. If only you had love and faith, the former abounding in epignosis (knowledge) instead of your puffed up gnosis; with the latter being a synonym for faith.

You're clueless, and despising anyone who would dare challenge your dumbed-down false doctrines because of your cognitive dissonance. Self-righteous, thinking it's the imputed righteousness of God.:rotfl: You are a joke! Just look at how far you will go to not answer the simplest question.

Nick M
April 13th, 2016, 03:37 PM
Are you saying you believe the Law has more than one purpose?

The Bible says it does. Israel was to be set apart from the rest of the world. And doing certain things in the law separated them. Unless you think it is immoral to have a wool coat in winter with the rest of your clothes.


Paul said in Hebrews 7:22 "Jesus has accordingly become the guarantee of a better covenant".

Paul said nothing in Hebrews. But that can be another thread.

Nick M
April 13th, 2016, 03:40 PM
The question is what is law in relation to the new covenant? Is there a new covenant law as there was a law with the old covenant?


Don't apply things in red letters, or outside of Paul's letters to you. There is no "Israel" today. The new Covenant will be with the House of Judah and the House of Israel (Tet's tribes). They will be united and under the King on earth. They will keep his statutes and he writes them on their hearts. Judah and Israel. Not you or me.

Jacob
April 13th, 2016, 04:09 PM
Don't apply things in red letters, or outside of Paul's letters to you. There is no "Israel" today. The new Covenant will be with the House of Judah and the House of Israel (Tet's tribes). They will be united and under the King on earth. They will keep his statutes and he writes them on their hearts. Judah and Israel. Not you or me.
Nick. I am circumcised and keep much of the Law.

I believe Jesus' words apply to me as Jesus is my Lord. So Paul's words apply to me as well.

Aletheiophile
April 13th, 2016, 04:21 PM
Don't apply things in red letters, or outside of Paul's letters to you. There is no "Israel" today. The new Covenant will be with the House of Judah and the House of Israel (Tet's tribes). They will be united and under the King on earth. They will keep his statutes and he writes them on their hearts. Judah and Israel. Not you or me.

They will be united? Don't you mean they already were united? The two houses were spiritually united in Christ nearly 2000 years ago. Physically, they were united long before the time of Christ. The Medo-Persian empire had absorbed the Assyrians, who took the House of Ephraim/Israel. So when the Medo-Persians took over the Babylonian Empire, many of that house rejoined Judah. It's historical revisionism to claim otherwise, and this is hardly taught anywhere.

Most of the scattered Israelites were married into other peoples anyway, thus the Samaritans and other peoples. So only a remnant returned. Hm, it seems that the pattern of God is always for a remnant. Hm...

Choleric
April 13th, 2016, 04:27 PM
Nick. I am circumcised and keep much of the Law.

I believe Jesus' words apply to me as Jesus is my Lord. So Paul's words apply to me as well.

The question is why do you keep the law? If it is because you plan on God trading you eternal life for your law keeping, you are misunderstanding the scriptures.

Jacob
April 13th, 2016, 04:33 PM
The question is why do you keep the law? If it is because you plan on God trading you eternal life for your law keeping, you are misunderstanding the scriptures.

It's not.

Choleric
April 13th, 2016, 04:39 PM
:thumb:

Nick M
April 13th, 2016, 07:11 PM
They will be united? Don't you mean they already were united?

No.

Click here (https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=929&q=israel+homo+parade&oq=israel+homo+parade&gs_l=img.3...698.4551.0.4724.22.10.0.12.2.0.248.12 36.1j7j1.9.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..1.10.1166.yEmgti QvDRY) to see "Israel" and this perverts idea of the law written on their hearts and doing them.

And unless you want to vomit, don't click the link.

Nick M
April 13th, 2016, 07:12 PM
Nick. I am circumcised and keep much of the Law.



Have fun in hell. If you are guilty in one point, you are guilty in all.

Stripe
April 13th, 2016, 07:29 PM
Such as?

Nick's post that I quoted outlined the situation.

Aletheiophile
April 13th, 2016, 07:43 PM
No.

Click here (https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1280&bih=929&q=israel+homo+parade&oq=israel+homo+parade&gs_l=img.3...698.4551.0.4724.22.10.0.12.2.0.248.12 36.1j7j1.9.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..1.10.1166.yEmgti QvDRY) to see "Israel" and this perverts idea of the law written on their hearts and doing them.

And unless you want to vomit, don't click the link.

You clearly did not read/understand my post. There is no future uniting of Israel. It happened physically before Christ, and spiritually in Christ.

patrick jane
April 13th, 2016, 07:53 PM
It's not.
have fun obeying, you sin in thought

Jacob
April 13th, 2016, 11:04 PM
Have fun in hell. If you are guilty in one point, you are guilty in all.
Nick,

Each one of us is guilty in one point. Only Jesus was not. So we are all guilty of all. Being guilty we have Jesus as our Lord and Savior, the just died for us the unjust. Having been saved do you believe you should obey God?

Crucible
April 14th, 2016, 11:42 AM
Reprobates like to use grace as justification to do or believe whatever is contrary to biblical wisdom and discipline.

The Old Law was the Jew's form of government, as they labored under a direct theocracy as God's people.
Some think that because Christ has liberated us from the penalties of that government, that there is nothing to be gained from heeding the wisdom and certain disciplines therein which was were the sole strengtheners of His people- it was through obedience that they evolved.

The reason many countries, especially of the 1st World, are becoming so empty of God is because of their sins via the rejection of God's ordinance.

Nick M
April 14th, 2016, 06:21 PM
Nick,

Each one of us is guilty in one point.

I am dead to sin. You said you keep the law, you are not dead to sin. You are going to hell with Osama bin Laden, rusha, granite, Hitler, Mother Theresa and others. It does not bother you?

Jacob
April 14th, 2016, 06:28 PM
I am dead to sin. You said you keep the law, you are not dead to sin. You are going to hell with Osama bin Laden, rusha, granite, Hitler, Mother Theresa and others. It does not bother you?
Nick,

I am a Christian. I am dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

I believe that as a Christian, born again by the Spirit of God and saved, I have the gift of eternal life in Jesus Christ my Lord.

I also believe that I am to obey God.

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jamie
April 14th, 2016, 09:07 PM
I also believe that I am to obey God.


Obey God in what context? What does one have to do to obey God?

Jacob
April 14th, 2016, 09:23 PM
Obey God in what context? What does one have to do to obey God?
Some believe the Law of Moses, God's Law. Some everything that Jesus taught. Some believe both, or that both is a different answer from this. Some believe only what Paul taught. Some believe what Jesus taught and what the apostles and prophets and / or what Paul taught, or any combination of the above including apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers, even elders, overseers, pastors, shepherds, bishops, deacons, or any of the above. We have God's commands from all of the above.

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jamie
April 14th, 2016, 09:30 PM
Some believe the Law of Moses, God's Law.


The Law of Moses commands men to support the Levitical priesthood, do you?

patrick jane
April 14th, 2016, 09:35 PM
Nick,

Each one of us is guilty in one point. Only Jesus was not. So we are all guilty of all. Being guilty we have Jesus as our Lord and Savior, the just died for us the unjust. Having been saved do you believe you should obey God?

Jacob, we get what you say. You said it. Fifty times or more. Now shut up, you're a broken record.

Jacob
April 14th, 2016, 09:44 PM
Jacob, we get what you say. You said it. Fifty times or more. Now shut up, you're a broken record.
As a Christian it makes sense to always be willing to talk about God's commands.

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Jacob
April 14th, 2016, 10:01 PM
The Law of Moses commands men to support the Levitical priesthood, do you?
I see no reason Biblically to not do so.

Epoisses
April 14th, 2016, 11:01 PM
Some believe the Law of Moses, God's Law. Some everything that Jesus taught. Some believe both, or that both is a different answer from this. Some believe only what Paul taught. Some believe what Jesus taught and what the apostles and prophets and / or what Paul taught, or any combination of the above including apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers, even elders, overseers, pastors, shepherds, bishops, deacons, or any of the above. We have God's commands from all of the above.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

Or we could obey the gospel and reflect God's love. That's an option for legalists like Jacob who blend grace and law and are self-condemned. They boast about their performance driven obedience and crucify Jesus afresh.

Jacob
April 14th, 2016, 11:07 PM
Or we could obey the gospel and reflect God's love. That's an option for legalists like Jacob who blend grace and law and are self-condemned. They boast about their performance driven obedience and crucify Jesus afresh.

I have no idea what you are talking about except that I do believe we all, every one of us, should obey the gospel.

Epoisses
April 14th, 2016, 11:09 PM
I have no idea what you are talking about except that I do believe we all, every one of us, should obey the gospel.

The gospel is not the law!! The gospel is good news and the law is bad news.

Jacob
April 14th, 2016, 11:11 PM
The gospel is not the law!! The gospel is good news and the law is bad news.

The Law is not bad news. It is from God and points out our sin, which is a good thing.

The gospel has always been good news, even when people think it is not.

Epoisses
April 14th, 2016, 11:12 PM
The Law is not bad news. It is from God and points out our sin, which is a good thing.

The gospel has always been good news, even when people think it is not.

The law is a ministry of death and condemnation. If you haven't figured out that you're a sinner by now then the law won't help you.

Jacob
April 14th, 2016, 11:13 PM
The law is a ministry of death and condemnation. If you haven't figured out that you're a sinner by now then the law won't help you.

In at least a couple of places Paul says the Law is good.

Jacob
April 14th, 2016, 11:18 PM
Romans 7:7 NASB - 7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

Epoisses
April 14th, 2016, 11:19 PM
In at least a couple of places Paul says the Law is good.

The law is good at revealing sin and that's it. Has the law told you that you're a sinner? If so then go to Jesus and stay under grace.

Jacob
April 14th, 2016, 11:24 PM
The law is good at revealing sin and that's it. Has the law told you that you're a sinner? If so then go to Jesus and stay under grace.

A person who knows God's grace is under grace and not under Law. This person still can obey God though, and always should. Not all people know the grace of God. This is why the gospel needs to be proclaimed.

Epoisses
April 14th, 2016, 11:27 PM
A person who knows God's grace is under grace and not under Law. This person still can obey God though, and always should. Not all people know the grace of God. This is why the gospel needs to be proclaimed.

Grace means unmerited favor. I don't do anything to receive it. If I try to do something to receive it I end up losing it. Your law keeping is causing you to fall from grace like the Galatian Christians.

meshak
April 14th, 2016, 11:27 PM
A person who knows God's grace is under grace and not under Law. This person still can obey God though, and always should. Not all people know the grace of God. This is why the gospel needs to be proclaimed.

the grace is that God is giving all of us chance to be with Him eternity.

Epoisses
April 14th, 2016, 11:28 PM
the grace is that God is giving all of us chance to be with Him eternity.
No it's not and you don't have a clue.

meshak
April 14th, 2016, 11:29 PM
Salvation is conditional.

God is giving us chance to be with Him. We all have free will to reject Him too.

meshak
April 14th, 2016, 11:31 PM
If we choose to love Jesus with our word and action, God will grant us salvation.

and Jesus says if we love Him, keep His commands.

Epoisses
April 14th, 2016, 11:32 PM
Salvation is conditional.

God is giving us chance to be with Him. We all have free will to reject Him too.

Salvation is unconditional. It is an accomplished historical fact that Jesus lived a perfect life, died the death of the cross and rose again for our justification. Mission accomplished!

meshak
April 14th, 2016, 11:35 PM
It is too bad that so many "Christians" treat God's commands like plague.

God gave us commands for our own good because He loves us.

Aletheiophile
April 14th, 2016, 11:38 PM
If we could be free from the taint of anthropocentric Arminianism....that would be great.

meshak
April 14th, 2016, 11:39 PM
If you speak against God's law, you are fighting against God and Jesus.

meshak
April 14th, 2016, 11:40 PM
If we could be free from the taint of anthropocentric Arminianism....that would be great.

what is your point?

meshak
April 14th, 2016, 11:43 PM
Working against God will get you salvation?

No.

meshak
April 14th, 2016, 11:44 PM
Jesus says to keep His commands.

We better keep it if we want salvation.

meshak
April 14th, 2016, 11:45 PM
Jesus is the Lord, we better listen to Him, and His Father told us to listen to Jesus too.

meshak
April 14th, 2016, 11:47 PM
God bless you Jacob to stay focusing on to keep God's law which is Jesus' law.

meshak
April 14th, 2016, 11:48 PM
God's law is blessing, not cursing.

Aletheiophile
April 14th, 2016, 11:52 PM
If you speak against God's law, you are fighting against God and Jesus.

You have to understand what law is. Law is the distribution of God's righteousness. It was never about doing. Always about the character of righteousness, the disposition of the heart. His law is given in Christ. There is no need to perform it.

Our works are only ever in Christ, according to Christ. Not our own.

meshak
April 15th, 2016, 12:04 AM
You have to understand what law is.

why do you make it like something mysterious?

Jesus made it clear, love God and love one another.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 15th, 2016, 12:09 AM
why do you make it like something mysterious?

Jesus made it clear, love God and love one another.

If you love everyone, how come you put your "enemies" as you call them, on ignore?

Grosnick Marowbe
April 15th, 2016, 12:11 AM
Jesus says to keep His commands.

We better keep it if we want salvation.

That's why you said: "I don't know if I'm saved?"

Grosnick Marowbe
April 15th, 2016, 12:14 AM
Delete

Grosnick Marowbe
April 15th, 2016, 12:15 AM
Meshak doesn't go by most of the Bible. Just Matthew through John. that's it.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 15th, 2016, 12:16 AM
Delete.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 15th, 2016, 12:18 AM
Meshak mostly follows the JWs.

Aletheiophile
April 15th, 2016, 12:18 AM
why do you make it like something mysterious?

Jesus made it clear, love God and love one another.

It is mysterious...that is the mystery revealed, as Paul writes. The Mystery revealed is Christ, the Logos incarnate, died and resurrected that we might know the Father. Pretty awesome mystery. The Law and Prophets and message of Christ is summer up in that. Not a mystery. Very clear.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 15th, 2016, 12:19 AM
Meshak does not accept the Apostle Paul.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 15th, 2016, 12:20 AM
...

Aletheiophile
April 15th, 2016, 12:20 AM
Meshak does not accept the Apostle Paul.

That's a loss on her part. I feel sorry for her.

IMJerusha
April 15th, 2016, 12:49 AM
That's a loss on her part. I feel sorry for her.

Why? Isn't Yeshua enough for her?...or you?...or anyone?

PneumaPsucheSoma
April 15th, 2016, 01:00 AM
Why? Isn't Yeshua enough for her?...or you?...or anyone?

Jesus (it's unnecessary to strictly call Him "Yeshua") commissioned Paul on the Damascus Road and the Spirit gave us much of the NT canon through Paul, so I'd say that's an authentic and compelling endorsement.

Paul was in Christ. Why is that not enough for her?...or you?...or anyone? Gentiles wouldn't have the gospel if not for Paul. God sent Him to them, which is us (the Gentiles).

Aletheiophile
April 15th, 2016, 01:03 AM
Why? Isn't Yeshua enough for her?...or you?...or anyone?

I never said otherwise. But the crux is the presuppositions of Christ brought to the table. Is he merely a teacher and example? Is He a law giver? Or is He the Logos of God incarnate, by whose death and resurrection we are reconciled with God? If the former, than go ahead and forsake Paul. But that is not even how Christ represent Himself, nor how the gospel writers represent Him. Paul simply, eloquently, and beautiful explains the gospel of Christ. The Revelation of Christ given to Paul is a simple tool for those in Christ, a record of the testimony and witness of Christ.

Of course Jesus, Yeshua, is enough. But who is this Messiah? And how do we know Him?

IMJerusha
April 15th, 2016, 01:46 AM
Jesus (it's unnecessary to strictly call Him "Yeshua")

Agreed.


...commissioned Paul on the Damascus Road and the Spirit gave us much of the NT canon through Paul, so I'd say that's an authentic and compelling endorsement.

I agree with this as well, however, Paul would be the first to tell us (and he did) that he didn't die for us, Yeshua did. It is through Yeshua that we have life, not through Paul, so there is no need to feel sorry for one who clings solely to Him.


Paul was in Christ. Why is that not enough for her?

I can't speak to that. I do know, however, that Yeshua is enough.


...or you? Me? I have no complaint with Paul other than he made things difficult for some to understand but Peter felt the same way. I figure we'll get it all straight when we gather at the Lord's table.


...or anyone?

My mention of "anyone" was in the context of Yeshua, not Paul, my point being that one need not ever read one single word of Paul's in order to know and love Yeshua.


Gentiles wouldn't have the gospel if not for Paul.

Perhaps you should read John 10 or consider the fact that Yeshua proclaimed salvation to anyone who had ears to hear and would listen.


God sent Him to them, which is us (the Gentiles).

You are aware that, according to Scripture, God chose His people from among Gentiles? Gentiles are unbelievers. There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about that.

IMJerusha
April 15th, 2016, 01:57 AM
I never said otherwise. But the crux is the presuppositions of Christ brought to the table. Is he merely a teacher and example? Is He a law giver? Or is He the Logos of God incarnate, by whose death and resurrection we are reconciled with God? If the former, than go ahead and forsake Paul. But that is not even how Christ represent Himself, nor how the gospel writers represent Him. Paul simply, eloquently, and beautiful explains the gospel of Christ. The Revelation of Christ given to Paul is a simple tool for those in Christ, a record of the testimony and witness of Christ.

Not just the former but also, and most importantly, the latter, no thanks to Paul if you get my drift.


Of course Jesus, Yeshua, is enough. But who is this Messiah? And how do we know Him?

Through many ways not the least of which is the Ruach, God's Holy Spirit.

Aletheiophile
April 15th, 2016, 02:01 AM
Agreed.



I agree with this as well, however, Paul would be the first to tell us (and he did) that he didn't die for us, Yeshua did. It is through Yeshua that we have life, not through Paul, so there is no need to feel sorry for one who clings solely to Him.



I can't speak to that. I do know, however, that Yeshua is enough.

Me? I have no complaint with Paul other than he made things difficult for some to understand but Peter felt the same way. I figure we'll get it all straight when we gather at the Lord's table.



My mention of "anyone" was in the context of Yeshua, not Paul, my point being that one need not ever read one single word of Paul's in order to know and love Yeshua.



Perhaps you should read John 10 or consider the fact that Yeshua proclaimed salvation to anyone who had ears to hear and would listen.



You are aware that, according to Scripture, God chose His people from among Gentiles? Gentiles are unbelievers. There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about that.

I think you're still missing the boat. I spent over a year in Hebrew Roots, and I felt similarly. I would hardly read outside of the Torah, and when I did it was the Gospels. I did not like reading the New Testament because I could only see how people misunderstood the Old Testament. But really, I was afraid of being confronted with the truth of God's Grace.

I believe the point that PPS is trying to make is that Paul represents Christ. When I was saved out of law-method and self-righteousness into the True Gospel of Christ, I fell in love with the letters of Paul because I found my savior your there. And because I had spent time in Hebrew Roots, I connected with Paul at that level understanding the typology and allusions.

That is why it is a loss for someone not to read Paul. Paul laid down his own mind, will, emotions, and desires to submit to the doctrine of Christ. His epistles are unadulterated Christ. Pure and simple.

So of course Jesus is enough, and He is not limited to the Gospels.

Besides, limiting oneself to the Gospel accounts betrays an unfortunate ignorance of the production of scripture. All of the New Testament texts were relatively contemporary compared to the OT texts and other "holy" scriptures. In the early church there was not some exclusive position of the gospels that the letters were only secondary. The majority of what is now canon was highly regarded and much viewed as inspired from even the first century. Writers such as Irrenaeus cite Paul's letters as scripture.

Christ is the perfect representation and manifestation of El Shaddai, so of course He is enough. But how do we know Him? Paul is our brother, manifesting Christ to us and thus bringing us into the gospel.

eider
April 15th, 2016, 02:03 AM
Your opinion on Godís Law. Do you believe Godís Law is only for pointing out sin in a personís life so that they can understand their need for a Savior and be saved by God and Jesus? Or, do you believe Godís Law is also to be obeyed, or is also for our obedience?

Hi....
God's laws, about 613 of them in total, were given to the Israelite people to protect them, keep them from sickness, and to generally strengthen the whole tribe.

Every single law was ideal for the above purposes AT THAT TIME.

But what some religions do with them now? Oh dear! :)

Aletheiophile
April 15th, 2016, 02:04 AM
Not just the former but also, and most importantly, the latter, no thanks to Paul if you get my drift.



Through many ways not the least of which is the Ruach, God's Holy Spirit.

Yes...the Ruach HaKodesh via malakhim...human malakhim. How do we have the testimony of Christ? Via the apostles in the Gospels and the Epistles. What is your beef with Paul? He was a pharisee of pharisees, and bears witness to late Judaism better than any other Apostle.

If I may ask, why are you picking this issue? It seems you've latched onto something to take the conversation elsewhere.

PneumaPsucheSoma
April 15th, 2016, 02:08 AM
Yes...the Ruach HaKodesh via malakhim...human malakhim. How do we have the testimony of Christ? Via the apostles in the Gospels and the Epistles. What is your beef with Paul? He was a pharisee of pharisees, and bears witness to late Judaism better than any other Apostle.

If I may ask, why are you picking this issue? It seems you've latched onto something to take the conversation elsewhere.

The real concern should be that Meshak (and others) deny the ontological divinity of our Lord. If He was not authentically human and divine, there is no salvation.

Aletheiophile
April 15th, 2016, 02:10 AM
Your opinion on Godís Law. Do you believe Godís Law is only for pointing out sin in a personís life so that they can understand their need for a Savior and be saved by God and Jesus? Or, do you believe Godís Law is also to be obeyed, or is also for our obedience?

Can we have a proper understanding of what Law is? Torah is not legislation. It is literally teaching. The Ten "Commandments" are not even commandments. They are the Ten Words. How can you "do" "I am YHWH your God who brought you out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage"? You can't. Pure and simple. All of God's Teaching is rooted in that first principle: Grace. Everything else follows from there.

In the Greek, Law is Nomos - distribution, allocation, allotment. Thus, literally the distribution of God's righteousness. How could either of these basic lexical meanings be codification or legislation? The written ordinances are according to the ontology of righteousness put forth by God. They are the result, produce, and fruit of God's Grace, not requirements for obtaining it.

If we could simply understand what Law is, a lot of these silly little disputes would be unnecessary...

PneumaPsucheSoma
April 15th, 2016, 02:12 AM
Can we have a proper understanding of what Law is? Torah is not legislation. It is literally teaching. The Ten "Commandments" are not even commandments. They are the Ten Words. How can you "do" "I am YHWH your God who brought you out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage"? You can't. Pure and simple. All of God's Teaching is rooted in that first principle: Grace. Everything else follows from there.

In the Greek, Law is Nomos - distribution, allocation, allotment. Thus, literally the distribution of God's righteousness. How could either of these basic lexical meanings be codification or legislation? The written ordinances are according to the ontology of righteousness put forth by God. They are the result, produce, and fruit of God's Grace, not requirements for obtaining it.

If we could simply understand what Law is, a lot of these silly little disputes would be unnecessary...

I'm going to clone you so you can spread truth everywhere. What a breath of fresh pneuma/ruach. :)

IMJerusha
April 15th, 2016, 02:18 AM
I think you're still missing the boat. I spent over a year in Hebrew Roots, and I felt similarly. I would hardly read outside of the Torah, and when I did it was the Gospels. I did not like reading the New Testament because I could only see how people misunderstood the Old Testament. But really, I was afraid of being confronted with the truth of God's Grace.

I believe the point that PPS is trying to make is that Paul represents Christ. When I was saved out of law-method and self-righteousness into the True Gospel of Christ, I fell in love with the letters of Paul because I found my savior your there. And because I had spent time in Hebrew Roots, I connected with Paul at that level understanding the typology and allusions.

That is why it is a loss for someone not to read Paul. Paul laid down his own mind, will, emotions, and desires to submit to the doctrine of Christ. His epistles are unadulterated Christ. Pure and simple.

So of course Jesus is enough, and He is not limited to the Gospels.

Besides, limiting oneself to the Gospel accounts betrays an unfortunate ignorance of the production of scripture. All of the New Testament texts were relatively contemporary compared to the OT texts and other "holy" scriptures. In the early church there was not some exclusive position of the gospels that the letters were only secondary. The majority of what is now canon was highly regarded and much viewed as inspired from even the first century. Writers such as Irrenaeus cite Paul's letters as scripture.

Christ is the perfect representation and manifestation of El Shaddai, so of course He is enough. But how do we know Him? Paul is our brother, manifesting Christ to us and thus bringing us into the gospel.

We all represent Christ, not just Paul. And if Paul's epistles were unadulterated Christ, Peter would have been anti-Christ in his words about Paul in 2 Peter 3:16.

IMJerusha
April 15th, 2016, 02:23 AM
Yes...the Ruach HaKodesh via malakhim...human malakhim. How do we have the testimony of Christ? Via the apostles in the Gospels and the Epistles. What is your beef with Paul? He was a pharisee of pharisees, and bears witness to late Judaism better than any other Apostle.

If I may ask, why are you picking this issue? It seems you've latched onto something to take the conversation elsewhere.

I have no beef with Paul. My beef is with elevating Paul to something that was not intended and with cannibalism of the Body.

Aletheiophile
April 15th, 2016, 02:23 AM
We all represent Christ, not just Paul. And if Paul's epistles were unadulterated Christ, Peter would have been anti-Christ in his words about Paul in 2 Peter 3:16.

???? That makes no sense. Paul and John both clearly outline spirit of Anti-Christ as denial of the doctrines of truth and physical incarnation of the Son. Peter is not denying either of those things, only admonishing the church to read Paul's letters carefully. Thus NOT anti-christian.

At this point your arguments are tangential, and not really getting to the heart of the issue. I'm not going to dance this dance if you do not answer my question already raised: What is your deal with Paul?

[edit- I was writing this while your reply was posted.]

I do not elevate Paul to godhead status. Do not misunderstand me. But the writings of Paul are foundational for Christian doctrine. Without him and the other apostles, we would be quite lost.

That said, this is still tangential to the OP and previous discussion.

IMJerusha
April 15th, 2016, 02:27 AM
The real concern should be that Meshak (and others) deny the ontological divinity of our Lord. If He was not authentically human and divine, there is no salvation.

And this, Aletheiophile, is the latching and source of tangential posting I believe you were pointing out.

IMJerusha
April 15th, 2016, 02:49 AM
???? That makes no sense. Paul and John both clearly outline spirit of Anti-Christ as denial of the doctrines of truth and physical incarnation of the Son. Peter is not denying either of those things, only admonishing the church to read Paul's letters carefully. Thus NOT anti-christian.

It makes sense to me. I don't see how unadulterated Christ can lead anyone to their destruction.


At this point your arguments are tangential, and not really getting to the heart of the issue. I'm not going to dance this dance if you do not answer my question already raised: What is your deal with Paul?

[edit- I was writing this while your reply was posted.]


I do not elevate Paul to godhead status. Do not misunderstand me. But the writings of Paul are foundational for Christian doctrine. Without him and the other apostles, we would be quite lost.

That said, this is still tangential to the OP and previous discussion.

Well, when one states that Paul's words are "unadulterated Christ," that's quite an elevation. That being said, all Scripture is God-breathed. In terms of salvation however, I would remind all that Yeshua stated "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." That's through Him, not through a particular doctrinal understanding or a particular brother's inspired writings.

And yes, I agree that bone picking has nothing to do with the OP and previous discussion.

SonOfCaleb
April 15th, 2016, 03:05 AM
Paul said nothing in Hebrews. But that can be another thread.

To my point, Paul was the author of the book of Hebrews hence why i credited Paul with that verse.

SonOfCaleb
April 15th, 2016, 03:19 AM
The question is what is law in relation to the new covenant? Is there a new covenant law as there was a law with the old covenant?

Essentially yes. But its not a prescriptive law as was the case with the Mosaic Law of the Torah/Pentatuch. This 'New covenant' refers only to a 'little flock' and a very specific group of anointed Christians who make up the spirtual Nation of Israel and rule with Jesus during his millenial reign as Kings and Priests of Gods heavenly government/organisation. This new covenant is why Jesus insituted the 'Lords evening meal' which replaced the Jewish passover and the previous Abrahamic covenant.

meshak
April 15th, 2016, 05:45 AM
It is mysterious...that is the mystery revealed, as Paul writes.

You see, you are using Paul's teachings to make simple Jesus' word complicated. That's a grave sin, dear.

meshak
April 15th, 2016, 05:50 AM
Paul was in Christ.

If you believe Paul was in Christ, you will embrace and appreciate Jesus' teachings or commands.

Paul himself strived to love God and love his neighbor as himself.

meshak
April 15th, 2016, 05:53 AM
The real concern should be that Meshak (and others) deny the ontological divinity of our Lord. If He was not authentically human and divine, there is no salvation.

That's how you focus on your own doctrines, not Jesus and His word.

Jesus is the Lord, not your own doctrine and make simple Christianity complicated and confused.

This kind of comments are deceptive.

jamie
April 15th, 2016, 07:00 AM
I see no reason Biblically to not do so.


Do you send your money directly to the high priest?

jamie
April 15th, 2016, 07:08 AM
A person who knows God's grace is under grace and not under Law. This person still can obey God though, and always should. Not all people know the grace of God. This is why the gospel needs to be proclaimed.


The Father has changed the Mosaic law which means if you are trying to keep that defunct law you are not obeying God.

Jesus is now High Priest which is contrary to the law Christ gave to the people of Israel through Moses.

jamie
April 15th, 2016, 07:29 AM
...and the previous Abrahamic covenant.


The Abrahamic covenant is with Abraham and with Christ. God has not backpedaled or rescinded his agreement with his Son nor with Abraham.

We are Abraham's seed. (Galatians 3:29)

SonOfCaleb
April 15th, 2016, 08:03 AM
God has not backpedaled or rescinded his agreement with his Son nor with Abraham.




Correct. What i meant to write was the "Law covenant" that was given to Moses, not the Abrahamic Covenant. Got Abraham on the brain for some reason....

Jacob
April 15th, 2016, 08:30 AM
Grace means unmerited favor. I don't do anything to receive it. If I try to do something to receive it I end up losing it. Your law keeping is causing you to fall from grace like the Galatian Christians.

There is no reason to break the law. Grace does not mean we are not to obey God.

Jacob
April 15th, 2016, 08:32 AM
the grace is that God is giving all of us chance to be with Him eternity.

I don't know if I know what you mean. Are you wanting to talk about eternal life?

Jacob
April 15th, 2016, 08:33 AM
Hi....
God's laws, about 613 of them in total, were given to the Israelite people to protect them, keep them from sickness, and to generally strengthen the whole tribe.

Every single law was ideal for the above purposes AT THAT TIME.

But what some religions do with them now? Oh dear! :)

Yes, the Torah has 613 commands.

Jacob
April 15th, 2016, 08:34 AM
Can we have a proper understanding of what Law is? Torah is not legislation. It is literally teaching. The Ten "Commandments" are not even commandments. They are the Ten Words. How can you "do" "I am YHWH your God who brought you out of Egypt, out of the house of bondage"? You can't. Pure and simple. All of God's Teaching is rooted in that first principle: Grace. Everything else follows from there.

In the Greek, Law is Nomos - distribution, allocation, allotment. Thus, literally the distribution of God's righteousness. How could either of these basic lexical meanings be codification or legislation? The written ordinances are according to the ontology of righteousness put forth by God. They are the result, produce, and fruit of God's Grace, not requirements for obtaining it.

If we could simply understand what Law is, a lot of these silly little disputes would be unnecessary...

Yes, Torah is God's instruction.

Jacob
April 15th, 2016, 08:36 AM
Essentially yes. But its not a prescriptive law as was the case with the Mosaic Law of the Torah/Pentatuch. This 'New covenant' refers only to a 'little flock' and a very specific group of anointed Christians who make up the spirtual Nation of Israel and rule with Jesus during his millenial reign as Kings and Priests of Gods heavenly government/organisation. This new covenant is why Jesus insituted the 'Lords evening meal' which replaced the Jewish passover and the previous Abrahamic covenant.

Some believe there was old covenant law and now there is new covenant law, but I don't know what it would be. I recognize the Law, God's Law, the Law of Moses, and a change of law though I don't know what to do about the idea of new covenant law.

Jacob
April 15th, 2016, 08:37 AM
Do you send your money directly to the high priest?

? I don't know what you mean.

Jacob
April 15th, 2016, 08:38 AM
The Father has changed the Mosaic law which means if you are trying to keep that defunct law you are not obeying God.

Jesus is now High Priest which is contrary to the law Christ gave to the people of Israel through Moses.

Jesus is not contrary to God's Law, you are mistaken.

jamie
April 15th, 2016, 08:57 AM
Jesus is not contrary to God's Law, you are mistaken.



Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek and not be called according to the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. For He of whom these things are spoken belongs to another tribe, from which no man has officiated at the altar.

For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. (Hebrews 7:11-16)

PneumaPsucheSoma
April 15th, 2016, 09:04 AM
Yes, the Torah has 613 commands.

This modern concept came from Maimonides in the Medieval period (12th-13th centuries AD), and was based on Aristotelian non-Theistic fallacies of sophistry.

You're attempting to refer to the Book of the Covenant that accompanied the Decalogue, and doing so according to a Medieval Talmudist rather than authentic historical and biblical Judaism.

You can't know how much of a fail this, because you're not a student of language and history.

PneumaPsucheSoma
April 15th, 2016, 09:08 AM
Some believe there was old covenant law and now there is new covenant law, but I don't know what it would be. I recognize the Law, God's Law, the Law of Moses, and a change of law though I don't know what to do about the idea of new covenant law.

The bolded is what is accurate. And you're refusing to know based on your not knowing.

You don't understand grammar for languages in translation, and your English concepts have led you to false autonomous deductive reasoning. It's very common, to the point of being an epidemic in modern western hearts and minds.

Epistemologically, you have a loaded truck with the wrong cargo; and you won't stop and have it off-loaded to have the correct cargo.

All you're doing is arguing to keep your false cargo when others are attempting to help you.

jamie
April 15th, 2016, 09:31 AM
? I don't know what you mean.


You say you obey the Law of Moses but Christ said through Moses that only descendants of Aaron may serve as priests.

If you support the Aaronic priesthood to whom do you send your money? Or do you not obey Moses?

Jacob
April 15th, 2016, 09:34 AM
This modern concept came from Maimonides in the Medieval period (12th-13th centuries AD), and was based on Aristotelian non-Theistic fallacies of sophistry.

You're attempting to refer to the Book of the Covenant that accompanied the Decalogue, and doing so according to a Medieval Talmudist rather than authentic historical and biblical Judaism.

You can't know how much of a fail this, because you're not a student of language and history.
I am a student of the Bible, Torah, and Hebrew.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

PneumaPsucheSoma
April 15th, 2016, 09:39 AM
I am a student of the Bible, Torah, and Hebrew.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk


Sorta. From a modern western mindset, perspective, and presuppositions.

You don't even know what "law" is or means, nor "word".

I doubt you're a Hebrew linguist. Are you?

Jacob
April 15th, 2016, 09:40 AM
The bolded is what is accurate. And you're refusing to know based on your not knowing.

You don't understand grammar for languages in translation, and your English concepts have led you to false autonomous deductive reasoning. It's very common, to the point of being an epidemic in modern western hearts and minds.

Epistemologically, you have a loaded truck with the wrong cargo; and you won't stop and have it off-loaded to have the correct cargo.

All you're doing is arguing to keep your false cargo when others are attempting to help you.

Torah is God's instruction while the Greek word nomos is translated as law.

The book of Hebrews needs explained, even while Christians are not under law but should always obey God's commands.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

jamie
April 15th, 2016, 09:41 AM
I am a student of the Bible, Torah, and Hebrew.


Then you should know what was in the ark of the covenant. It wasn't the Book of the Law which contained ordinances set aside by Jesus Christ.

You should become a disciple (student) of Jesus Christ and believe what he instructed his disciples to teach.

Ktoyou
April 15th, 2016, 09:43 AM
If we all had to keep God's laws, we would all go to hell.

Jacob
April 15th, 2016, 09:44 AM
You say you obey the Law of Moses but Christ said through Moses that only descendants of Aaron may serve as priests.

If you support the Aaronic priesthood to whom do you send your money? Or do you not obey Moses?
jamie,

I understand Aaron to have been the High Priest. This is indeed in regard to the Levitical proesthood.

I am not sure what you mean about sending your money, or sending money.

PneumaPsucheSoma
April 15th, 2016, 09:44 AM
Torah is God's instruction while the Greek word nomos is translated as law.

The book of Hebrews needs explained, even while Christians are not under law but should always obey God's commands.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

Sigh. Go ahead and keep the law, then. Hope it all works out. (It won't.)

Jacob
April 15th, 2016, 09:47 AM
Sorta. From a modern western mindset, perspective, and presuppositions.

You don't even know what "law" is or means, nor "word".

I doubt you're a Hebrew linguist. Are you?
I am a student of Hebrew. I speak English.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

Jacob
April 15th, 2016, 09:48 AM
Then you should know what was in the ark of the covenant. It wasn't the Book of the Law which contained ordinances set aside by Jesus Christ.

You should become a disciple (student) of Jesus Christ and believe what he instructed his disciples to teach.
I think you are missing something, but I can't put my finger on it.

Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk

Jacob
April 15th, 2016, 09:49 AM
If we all had to keep God's laws, we would all go to hell.
No.

Jacob
April 15th, 2016, 09:49 AM
Sigh. Go ahead and keep the law, then. Hope it all works out. (It won't.)
Obeying God always works out.

PneumaPsucheSoma
April 15th, 2016, 10:57 AM
Obeying God always works out.

Your argument is based on a false dichotomy that you are blind to.

Epoisses
April 15th, 2016, 11:43 AM
There is no reason to break the law. Grace does not mean we are not to obey God.

You're breaking the law by trying to keep it, legalist.

jamie
April 15th, 2016, 11:44 AM
I understand Aaron to have been the High Priest. This is indeed in regard to the Levitical proesthood.

I am not sure what you mean about sending your money, or sending money.


The Mosaic law requires each man to support the Levitical priesthood, do you?

Even a widow supported the priesthood with her two mites.


Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. And many who were rich put in much. Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites, which make a quadrans. So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood.”
(Mark 12:41-44)

The poor widow obeyed the Law of Moses, how about you? Do you support the Levitical treasury?

Epoisses
April 15th, 2016, 11:46 AM
The Mosaic law requires each man to support the Levitical priesthood, do you?

Even a widow supported the priesthood with her two mites.


Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. And many who were rich put in much. Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites, which make a quadrans. So He called His disciples to Himself and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood.”
(Mark 12:41-44)

The poor widow obeyed the Law of Moses, how about you? Do you support the Levitical treasury?

He doesn't even keep a tiny speck of the law. He's a fraud and deceived.

jamie
April 15th, 2016, 11:48 AM
I think you are missing something, but I can't put my finger on it.

I think you are also missing something. It's the New Testament, the one that applies to the NT church of God.

Jacob
April 15th, 2016, 12:30 PM
I think you are also missing something. It's the New Testament, the one that applies to the NT church of God.
Of course the church knows the new covenant and we have writings called the New Testament. These are scripture, in addition to the Hebrew Bible.

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Jacob
April 15th, 2016, 12:43 PM
Your argument is based on a false dichotomy that you are blind to.
It is true that I don't know what you are talking about.

At the same time do you need an argument to obey God?