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Robert Pate
April 10th, 2016, 09:34 AM
The devils purpose in religions is to lead us away from the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ and into ourselves, who are sinners. All religions, whether it be Pentecostalism, Calvinism, Catholicism or whatever religion is to cause us to worship the creature instead of the creator.

All religions have one thing incommon, they are all founded by a man and are man centered which makes them subjective. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is about Jesus Christ. It is not subjective. The Gospel took place totally and completely outside of us. We had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with it. Paul said, "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" Romans 5:8. Before we were ever born God in the person of Jesus Christ had already reconciled us and the world unto himself by Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

Those that belong to these subjective religions do nothing but talk about their religions. They do not talk about Christ and his Gospel. The Pentecostal talks about his subjective experiences. The Calvinist talks about his glorious doctrine of predestination. The Catholics love to talk about Mary and the Catholic church. You can be sure of one thing, it will be about them and their religion. Jesus said, "Where you treasure is, there will your heart be also" Matthew 6:21.

Pentecostalism came about because of an event. The event was Pentecost. God drew thousands of people to Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost so that they could hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It was not about the Holy Spirit. It was about the Gospel coming into the world in the power of the Holy Spirit. Pentecostals get side tracked here because they think that it was about the Spirit. It was NOT about the Spirit (who does not speak of himself, John 16:13) it was about Jesus Christ and his Gospel. The Gospel that Justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19.

God used many various methods to get the Gospel of his Son out into the world. Tongues was one of them, which was foreign languages. Many heard the Gospel message in their own native tongue, Acts 2:11. And what was it they heard? They spoke about "the wonderful works of God" which is the Gospel. The apostles were given power to perform miracles. They would do a miracle and when a crowd appeared they would preach the Gospel to them as proof that their message was from God.

What happened after that miraculous event on the day of Pentecost? Did the apostles go into Jerusalem and talk about what they had experienced? The fiery tongues, the mighty wind, how they were all filled with the Spirit. No, they didn't say anything about that. They had a far greater message than that. They had the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The scripture says that they went everywhere preaching the resurrection of Jesus Christ. The once lowly disciples became powerful preachers of the Gospel, Acts 4:13-22.

jamie
April 10th, 2016, 10:08 AM
God drew thousands of people to Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost so that they could hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


Not true. The day of Pentecost was the fiftieth day from the wave sheaf presentation and was a commanded assembly for Hebrew men who were able to make the journey to Jerusalem. Jews came from locations throughout the Roman empire. They were not there to hear about Jesus from the tiny town of Nazareth, they were there because of God's religion given to them through Moses at Mt. Sinai in the Arabian desert.

csuguy
April 10th, 2016, 11:58 AM
The devils purpose in religions is to lead us away from the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ and into ourselves, who are sinners. All religions, whether it be Pentecostalism, Calvinism, Catholicism or whatever religion is to cause us to worship the creature instead of the creator.


Wrong.

James 1:26-27 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not [ab]bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this manís religion is worthless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained [ac]by the world.

patrick jane
April 10th, 2016, 08:54 PM
The Pate

It was not about the Holy Spirit. It was about the Gospel coming into the world in the power of the Holy Spirit. Pentecostals get side tracked here because they think that it was about the Spirit. It was NOT about the Spirit (who does not speak of himself, John 16:13 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/John%2016.13)) it was about Jesus Christ and his Gospel. The Gospel that Justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/Rom%204.5)and reconciles us and the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/2%20Cor%205.18), 19 (http://biblia.com/bible/nkjv/2%20Corinthians%205.19).


Great post Robert, they got sidetracked

patrick jane
April 10th, 2016, 08:56 PM
Wrong.

James 1:26-27 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not [ab]bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained [ac]by the world.
How many do you know that visit orphans and widows ?

Nick M
April 10th, 2016, 09:21 PM
To expound a bit on Pate's comment, they act like it is about them and the Spirit giving them special power like he did Israel for a specific purpose.

csuguy
April 11th, 2016, 08:24 AM
How many do you know that visit orphans and widows ?

Some, but not many - which is to be expected. It is the narrow path afterall, most people - including most self-proclaimed Christians - do not live according to Christianity. They chase after the things of this world.

Robert Pate
April 11th, 2016, 08:26 AM
Wrong.

James 1:26-27 If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not [ab]bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless. 27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained [ac]by the world.

There is good religion and there is bad religion.

Good religion is work that is done out of love and gratitude for what Christ has done for us.

Bad religion is the religion of the Pharisees. It is work that is done to try and please God. It is full of arrogance and pride. The only one that can please God is Jesus Christ.

csuguy
April 11th, 2016, 08:42 AM
There is good religion and there is bad religion.

Good religion is work that is done out of love and gratitude for what Christ has done for us.

Bad religion is the religion of the Pharisees. It is work that is done to try and please God. It is full of arrogance and pride. The only one that can please God is Jesus Christ.

Seriously? Religion that tries to please God is bad? :AMR:

I guess you aren't a fan of the Greatest Commandment then?

Robert Pate
April 11th, 2016, 08:50 AM
Seriously? Religion that tries to please God is bad? :AMR:

I guess you aren't a fan of the Greatest Commandment then?

Can sinners please God?

If you believe that sinners can please God, then you probably think that God is a sinner like you.

Have you not noticed that God is not present?

The only one that ever pleased God was Jesus Christ. We can only become pleasing to God by being "In Christ". God must see us "In Christ" in the judgment or we will perish.

To be "In Christ" means that you are trusting in his righteousness and in his atonement for your sins, plus nothing else.

Nick M
April 11th, 2016, 08:54 AM
Religion that tries to please God is bad?


Yes.

Romans 4

3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

The qualifier Paul uses, and so does James, is not while circumcised.

Robert Pate
April 11th, 2016, 10:07 AM
Yes.

Romans 4

3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

The qualifier Paul uses, and so does James, is not while circumcised.


What's worse than trying to please God by your works is to think that you actually can.

The only thing that pleases God is faith in his Son Jesus Christ, plus nothing, Romans 4:5.

jamie
April 11th, 2016, 05:11 PM
The only one that can please God is Jesus Christ.


Why do you so consistently contradict Paul?


Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus. (1 Thessalonians 4:1-2)

Nick M
April 11th, 2016, 07:09 PM
Why do you so consistently contradict Paul?



The commandments Paul gave him are what I posted.

csuguy
April 12th, 2016, 01:51 AM
Yes.

Romans 4

3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

The qualifier Paul uses, and so does James, is not while circumcised.

As James 2 teaches, faith apart from works is dead. Faith means nothing if it is not acted upon. Like the man who ignored Christ's words and built on the sand - you will be swept away and destroyed if you fail to act according to his teachings. To abandon good deeds is to abandon the faith in any meaningful sense of the word. Hence Christ says that only the one who does the will of the Lord shall be saved; that you must give your life to save it.

Furthermore, Paul teaches in Romans 2 that eternal life is the reward for good deeds.

csuguy
April 12th, 2016, 01:53 AM
What's worse than trying to please God by your works is to think that you actually can.

The only thing that pleases God is faith in his Son Jesus Christ, plus nothing, Romans 4:5.

So your "gospel" is to ignore what God commands - because you think it's impossible to please him? If I've ever heard a heresy - this is it.

csuguy
April 12th, 2016, 01:58 AM
Can sinners please God?

If you believe that sinners can please God, then you probably think that God is a sinner like you.

Have you not noticed that God is not present?

The only one that ever pleased God was Jesus Christ. We can only become pleasing to God by being "In Christ". God must see us "In Christ" in the judgment or we will perish.

To be "In Christ" means that you are trusting in his righteousness and in his atonement for your sins, plus nothing else.

One cannot please God when they sin, but we are not bound to do nothing but sin. We have freewill to choose to do what is right and good. And when we do good, when we act in accordance with his will - we do please him.

Additionally, God guarantees that there is always an escape from sin for us:


1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

chrysostom
April 12th, 2016, 05:43 AM
We have freewill to choose to do what is right and good.

we choose to believe that we have free will

Nick M
April 12th, 2016, 06:49 AM
As James 2 teaches, faith apart from works is dead.

You will get no debate from me on that point. James does say works justifies and makes faith perfect.

Galatians 2

7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter

Robert Pate
April 12th, 2016, 07:38 AM
One cannot please God when they sin, but we are not bound to do nothing but sin. We have freewill to choose to do what is right and good. And when we do good, when we act in accordance with his will - we do please him.

Additionally, God guarantees that there is always an escape from sin for us:


1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.


There are only two places that you can be spiritually.

1. You can be "In Christ".

2. You can be in your flesh.

To be spiritually in your flesh means that you are under condemnation, Romans 8:1.

If God does not see you "In Christ" then he will see you in the flesh.

So, where are you?

csuguy
April 12th, 2016, 08:29 AM
There are only two places that you can be spiritually.

1. You can be "In Christ".

2. You can be in your flesh.

To be spiritually in your flesh means that you are under condemnation, Romans 8:1.

If God does not see you "In Christ" then he will see you in the flesh.

So, where are you?

It's not quite so cut and dry - Paul in the previous chapter laments the conflict between the two natures present in him:


Romans 7:21-25 I find then the [n]principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God [o]in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in [p]the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner [q]of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from [r]the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Additionally, we can see here that Paul contradicts your "gospel." Paul himself, with his mind, seeks to serve the law of God. He hasn't given up on doing what is right, even as the law of sin in his flesh tempts him towards evil.

Robert Pate
April 12th, 2016, 09:02 AM
It's not quite so cut and dry - Paul in the previous chapter laments the conflict between the two natures present in him:


Romans 7:21-25 I find then the [n]principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God [o]in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in [p]the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner [q]of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from [r]the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Additionally, we can see here that Paul contradicts your "gospel." Paul himself, with his mind, seeks to serve the law of God. He hasn't given up on doing what is right, even as the law of sin in his flesh tempts him towards evil.

Romans 7 has nothing to do with Paul's salvation.

Romans 7 is about Paul's struggle with sin. Sin does not separate a Christian from God. God sees all that are his as perfect and complete "In Christ".

jamie
April 12th, 2016, 12:10 PM
Romans 7 is about Paul's struggle with sin.


Nope. Romans 7 & 8 are allegorical.

Paul said, "I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathersí law and was zealous toward God as you all are today." (Acts 22:3)


...concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. (Philippians 3:6)

Robert Pate
April 12th, 2016, 03:42 PM
Nope. Romans 7 & 8 are allegorical.

Paul said, "I am indeed a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, taught according to the strictness of our fathers’ law and was zealous toward God as you all are today." (Acts 22:3)


...concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. (Philippians 3:6)

Paul was indeed a self righteous Pharisee before he became a Christian.

But after he became a Christian the Holy Spirit convicted him of his sins and he referred to himself as "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 12th, 2016, 04:00 PM
Anyone interested in seeing what the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement has been up to in the last two decades might want to go on You-Tube and see all of the odd/strange things they've been up to? Check out the Prosperity message and the signs and wonders that they portray as coming from God. The "things" you'll see are NOT from God. These people want experiences over the Gospel. They are not saved. Neither are the Prosperity preachers today. Examples: Kenneth Copeland, Jesse Duplantis, Benny Hinn, Paula White, Joel Osteen, Todd Bentley, Ron Parsley, and the list goes on and on. All non-Christian parasites and liars.

jamie
April 12th, 2016, 05:27 PM
Paul was indeed a self righteous Pharisee before he became a Christian.

But after he became a Christian the Holy Spirit convicted him of his sins and he referred to himself as "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15.


After Paul was converted he was still a Pharisee, but with God's righteousness and no longer a sinner. Paul became an ex-sinner.

csuguy
April 13th, 2016, 01:49 AM
Romans 7 has nothing to do with Paul's salvation.

Romans 7 is about Paul's struggle with sin. Sin does not separate a Christian from God. God sees all that are his as perfect and complete "In Christ".

That passage demonstrates that even someone who is in Christ (unless you deny that Paul was in Christ?) still struggles with sin. It's not like one becomes a Christian and all of our temptations that lead us into sin simply disappear - somethings will always be there to tempt us. Even Christ was tempted by Satan.

But despite the presence of temptation and sin in the law of the flesh, yet God's law reigned in his heart and mind - his true desire. And in this we find the truth of the state of true Christians: they have a heart and mind that desires to do God's will, but still must struggle with sin. It is not a black and white scenario of either being a Christian or a sinner, it is a constant battle to decide who you are going to be. This is why there are warnings saying that it is better to lose a hand or an eye than for the whole body to be destroyed. This is why it warns against falling away. This is why when asked how to pray, Jesus instructed us to repent of our sins and ask for forgiveness.

Being a Christian does not mean passively subscribing to doctrines X, Y, and Z. Being a Christian is about how you live your life, it's about following Christ's teachings and doing God's will, it's about being there for others and helping them in their time of need. Beliefs are important because they guide our actions. When your beliefs, your faith, are divorced from action - it means nothing, they are dead.

And this very much has to do with salvation - for Christ teaches that only those who do the will of the Father will be saved. Paul teaches that eternal life is a reward for good works. Christ, in the parable of the sheeps and goats, made it clear that what separates the saved from the damned is how they lived in this life, how they treated others in their time of need. And when someone repents, you are to forgive them, lest you not be forgiven.

And yes - sin does separate one from God. That's kind of the whole reason we need Christ to reconcile us to God to begin with.

Robert Pate
April 13th, 2016, 08:25 AM
That passage demonstrates that even someone who is in Christ (unless you deny that Paul was in Christ?) still struggles with sin. It's not like one becomes a Christian and all of our temptations that lead us into sin simply disappear - somethings will always be there to tempt us. Even Christ was tempted by Satan.

But despite the presence of temptation and sin in the law of the flesh, yet God's law reigned in his heart and mind - his true desire. And in this we find the truth of the state of true Christians: they have a heart and mind that desires to do God's will, but still must struggle with sin. It is not a black and white scenario of either being a Christian or a sinner, it is a constant battle to decide who you are going to be. This is why there are warnings saying that it is better to lose a hand or an eye than for the whole body to be destroyed. This is why it warns against falling away. This is why when asked how to pray, Jesus instructed us to repent of our sins and ask for forgiveness.

Being a Christian does not mean passively subscribing to doctrines X, Y, and Z. Being a Christian is about how you live your life, it's about following Christ's teachings and doing God's will, it's about being there for others and helping them in their time of need. Beliefs are important because they guide our actions. When your beliefs, your faith, are divorced from action - it means nothing, they are dead.

And this very much has to do with salvation - for Christ teaches that only those who do the will of the Father will be saved. Paul teaches that eternal life is a reward for good works. Christ, in the parable of the sheeps and goats, made it clear that what separates the saved from the damned is how they lived in this life, how they treated others in their time of need. And when someone repents, you are to forgive them, lest you not be forgiven.

And yes - sin does separate one from God. That's kind of the whole reason we need Christ to reconcile us to God to begin with.


I agree with much of what you have said.

All that have come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him receive the Holy Spirit. They are sealed by the Spirit, Ephesians 1:13. There is no unsealing. After they are sealed with the Holy Spirit God spiritually places them "In Christ" Ephesians 2:6. There is no removing them from Christ. All that have received the Holy Spirit and are "In Christ" will persevere until the end.

If you fail to persevere chances are you never did believe in the first place and you were a counterfeit.

csuguy
April 13th, 2016, 08:43 AM
I agree with much of what you have said.

All that have come to Christ as repentant sinners to be saved by him receive the Holy Spirit. They are sealed by the Spirit, Ephesians 1:13. There is no unsealing. After they are sealed with the Holy Spirit God spiritually places them "In Christ" Ephesians 2:6. There is no removing them from Christ. All that have received the Holy Spirit and are "In Christ" will persevere until the end.

If you fail to persevere chances are you never did believe in the first place and you were a counterfeit.

False - there are numerous warnings in the scriptures about falling away, and numerous times we are told to persevere. Why all the warnings if there is no danger of falling away? Also consider the parable of the sower:



Matthew 13:18-23 “Hear then the parable of the sower. 19 When anyone hears the [i]word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. 20 The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the [j]word, immediately he [k]falls away. 22 And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the [l]world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23 And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”


We see here that the Word is sown in many people's hearts. However, depending upon the individual, the Word that was sown in their heart maybe snatched away, or else made unfruitful. Only some who receive the Word understand it and act on it so as to bring forth fruit. Yet all these types of people legitimately received the Word, having it sown in their heart.

Robert Pate
April 13th, 2016, 04:04 PM
False - there are numerous warnings in the scriptures about falling away, and numerous times we are told to persevere. Why all the warnings if there is no danger of falling away? Also consider the parable of the sower:



We see here that the Word is sown in many people's hearts. However, depending upon the individual, the Word that was sown in their heart maybe snatched away, or else made unfruitful. Only some who receive the Word understand it and act on it so as to bring forth fruit. Yet all these types of people legitimately received the Word, having it sown in their heart.

The seed is sown, but only a few receive it.

Once you come to Christ to be saved by him and are sealed with the Holy Spirit, there is nothing, absolutely nothing that can separate you from the love of God that is in Jesus Christ, Romans 8:35-39.

csuguy
April 13th, 2016, 06:46 PM
The seed is sown, but only a few receive it.

That's not what the parable says. Even of those who have it taken away easily, it says that they received the Word with joy! Even that it was sown in their hearts.



Once you come to Christ to be saved by him and are sealed with the Holy Spirit, there is nothing, absolutely nothing that can separate you from the love of God that is in Jesus Christ, Romans 8:35-39.

While we are sealed with the Holy Spirit - the scriptures make no assertion that there is no-way no-how that we can ever fall away. To the contrary, the scriptures constantly call for our perseverance and good works so that we will be saved. Salvation requires that one give their lives to doing God's will. And it warns that those who call on the Lord, but do not do these things - they will not be saved. They are the goats.


Matthew 16:25 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.


Matthew 24:12-13 Because lawlessness is increased, [f]most people’s love will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.


Mark 13:13 You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.


James 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?


Or see here, where it explicitly talks about preventing one's fellow brethren from falling away:


James 5:19-20 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20 let him know that [s]he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

This verse completely contradicts the entire concept of OSAS - under it, no brethren should be able to stray from the truth such that he needs to be corrected lest his soul be in danger of death, but there it is!

jamie
April 13th, 2016, 07:48 PM
I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. (Revelation 3:15-16)

patrick jane
April 13th, 2016, 08:13 PM
I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. (Revelation 3:15-16)



:vomit:

Robert Pate
April 14th, 2016, 07:07 PM
That's not what the parable says. Even of those who have it taken away easily, it says that they received the Word with joy! Even that it was sown in their hearts.



While we are sealed with the Holy Spirit - the scriptures make no assertion that there is no-way no-how that we can ever fall away. To the contrary, the scriptures constantly call for our perseverance and good works so that we will be saved. Salvation requires that one give their lives to doing God's will. And it warns that those who call on the Lord, but do not do these things - they will not be saved. They are the goats.


Matthew 16:25 For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.


Matthew 24:12-13 Because lawlessness is increased, [f]most people’s love will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.


Mark 13:13 You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.


James 2:14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?


Or see here, where it explicitly talks about preventing one's fellow brethren from falling away:


James 5:19-20 My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20 let him know that [s]he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

This verse completely contradicts the entire concept of OSAS - under it, no brethren should be able to stray from the truth such that he needs to be corrected lest his soul be in danger of death, but there it is!

There is a problem with James. He was a Judaizer. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also believes that you must keep the law.

If you fall away after you confessed Christ as your savior. You never did really believe. You were a counterfeit.

jamie
April 14th, 2016, 09:12 PM
There is a problem with James. He was a Judaizer. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also believes that you must keep the law.


James said just the opposite, why are you maligning him? (Acts 15:19)

Robert Pate
April 15th, 2016, 07:46 AM
James said just the opposite, why are you maligning him? (Acts 15:19)

James is one of the first books of the New Testament. Many, including James could not believe that the law had been abolished.

James sent men to spy on Peter to see if he was eating with Gentiles, Galatians 2:11-14.

James wanted to circumcise Gentile believers, Acts 15:1-21.

Read it for yourself. I am sure that at a later date James came into a full knowledge of the Gospel and justification by faith apart from the works of the law.

csuguy
April 15th, 2016, 04:58 PM
There is a problem with James. He was a Judaizer. A Judaizer is one that believes in Jesus, but also believes that you must keep the law.

If you fall away after you confessed Christ as your savior. You never did really believe. You were a counterfeit.

All of the biblical authors support the law, including Paul. As we saw in Romans 7 - in his inner self, in his mind, it is his desire to follow God's Law. In fact, God's Law is a fundamental part of being a Christian under the New Covenant. Here is a prophecy concerning the New Covenant:


Jeremiah 31:31-34 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

This is explicitly quoted in NT scriptures like Hebrews 8:10; 10:16.

Paul uses similar terminology throughout his works like in Romans 2:14-16


For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Recall, also, that to love the Lord is to keep his commandments (1 John 5:3). So you cannot legitimately separate Christianity and being a Christian from God's Law. A true Christian will have God's Law written on their heart - which means that that is how they will choose to act, it's what guides them and sets their values.

Robert Pate
April 15th, 2016, 05:27 PM
All of the biblical authors support the law, including Paul. As we saw in Romans 7 - in his inner self, in his mind, it is his desire to follow God's Law. In fact, God's Law is a fundamental part of being a Christian under the New Covenant. Here is a prophecy concerning the New Covenant:


Jeremiah 31:31-34 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

This is explicitly quoted in NT scriptures like Hebrews 8:10; 10:16.

Paul uses similar terminology throughout his works like in Romans 2:14-16


For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Recall, also, that to love the Lord is to keep his commandments (1 John 5:3). So you cannot legitimately separate Christianity and being a Christian from God's Law. A true Christian will have God's Law written on their heart - which means that that is how they will choose to act, it's what guides them and sets their values.


To be under the law is to be under a curse, Galatians 3:10.

The Law has been abolished for Christians, Colossians 2:14 also Ephesians 2:15.

Paul said that the law made him want to sin, Romans 7:7-12.

The law is for ungodly sinners, 1 Timothy 1:9, 10.

I don't know who you have been listening to. It hasn't been the Bible.

jamie
April 15th, 2016, 05:44 PM
James sent men to spy on Peter to see if he was eating with Gentiles, Galatians 2:11-14.

James wanted to circumcise Gentile believers, Acts 15:1-21.


The scripture says men came from James, it does not say James sent them.

meshak
April 15th, 2016, 07:32 PM
I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. So then, because you are lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth. (Revelation 3:15-16)

Most of us in the west apply to this category. do you think you are not one of them?

csuguy
April 15th, 2016, 08:24 PM
To be under the law is to be under a curse, Galatians 3:10.

The Law has been abolished for Christians, Colossians 2:14 also Ephesians 2:15.

Paul said that the law made him want to sin, Romans 7:7-12.

The law is for ungodly sinners, 1 Timothy 1:9, 10.

I don't know who you have been listening to. It hasn't been the Bible.

First off, you are in error if you hope to cancel out the versus that I supplied with other ones. No number of them will cancel out the fact that under the New Covenant of prophecy, God's Law is written on our hearts and minds. Nor will they cancel out the clear support for this from the NT scriptures. What you are doing here is simply putting on blinders. What you need to do is to learn how the versus I supplied, in addition to many others that support them, reconcile with versus like these. A proper understanding of this matter will not pit the scriptures against one another. To do that is to divide Paul against Paul, and Christ against Christ - and it cannot stand.

Probably the biggest source of confusion on this matter is Paul, for in some places he speaks of being under the Law, in other places being freed from the Law - seemingly contradictory. Hence all of your verses are from Paul. But one must be careful when quoting Paul, for Paul's use of the word "Law" does not always refer to the same thing. People who quote him haphazardly think that it refers exclusively to the Mosaic Law, but this is not so.


Romans 3:27-31 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 [r]For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works [s]of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the [t]circumcised by faith and the [v]uncircumcised through faith is one.

31 Do we then nullify [w]the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

There are a few notable things in this passage. The first is that he speaks of "a law of faith" in contrast to works of the law. So he has here introduced a new usage of the term "Law" referring to something contrasted to the Mosaic Law. And it is by this Law of Faith that he says that a man is justified. The next thing to note is that he says that this Law of Faith does not nullify the Mosaic Law, but establishes it!

So, yes, the Mosaic Law will not save you. But that doesn't mean it is unimportant and can simply be discarded like people are prone to do. While the Old Covenant may not be as good as the New, it has not yet disappeared - and will not until all things are complete.


Romans 7:21-22 I find then the [n]principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God [o]in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in [p]the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner [q]of the law of sin which is in my members.

Here we see two more laws being spoken of by Paul: the law of God, which he rejoices in, and the law of sin in his members, in his body. The Law of God is good, and what he wants to obey. The Law of Sin is what is in his body, which tries to stop him from doing what is good. This he says at the end of chapter 7. He begins the very next chapter by saying:


Romans 8:1-11 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For [U]the law of the Spirit of life [a]in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of [c]sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is [d]alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [e]through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Here we see Paul further expounding upon the "law of the Spirit in Christ Jesus" (aka, "the law of God" in chapter 7) versus the "law of sin and of death." Here we see that the fundamental difference has to do with what one's mind is set on. For while Paul still had the law of sin reigning over his members, yet his mind was set on the law of God. In contrast, Paul says that one who has their mind set on the flesh cannot please God.

In contrast, those who set their minds on following the law of Faith, the law of the Spirit, the law of God, these people are said to be of the Spirit and ARE capable of pleasing God. In verse four it says that thanks to Jesus' sacrifice, "[He condemned sin in the flesh,] so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Those who are of the Spirit CAN fulfill the law. And what does the law require of us?


Romans 13:10 Love [f]does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

This is what is required of us: love. And love is most certainly attainable by anyone whose mind and heart are set on the Law of God, the Law of Faith, the Law of the Spirit - who walk in Christ.

In chapter 10 he contrasts that righteousness that is found in Christ with the righteousness of the Jews.


Romans 10:1-13 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the [a]end [or [B]goal] of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is [b]based on law shall live [c]by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness [d]based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 [e]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, [f]resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, [g]resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be [h]disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

We see here a repeat of his earlier sentiment about how those in the Spirit CAN fulfill the law. Of these he cites the Deutoronomy passage which states "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart." Don't ask who will ascend into heaven or descend into the abyss so that you can understand and do these things - you are fully equipped to do what is right if you know God, if you understand his will, if you follow the Spirit.

The error of the Jews is not that they were zealous for God or that they sought righteousness - but that they invented their own righteousness that was not founded upon the knowledge of God. But this knowledge has been preached to us, it is available to all who seek the truth.

Robert Pate
April 16th, 2016, 06:58 AM
The scripture says men came from James, it does not say James sent them.

James was the head of the church in Jerusalem. James sent them.

Robert Pate
April 16th, 2016, 07:14 AM
First off, you are in error if you hope to cancel out the versus that I supplied with other ones. No number of them will cancel out the fact that under the New Covenant of prophecy, God's Law is written on our hearts and minds. Nor will they cancel out the clear support for this from the NT scriptures. What you are doing here is simply putting on blinders. What you need to do is to learn how the versus I supplied, in addition to many others that support them, reconcile with versus like these. A proper understanding of this matter will not pit the scriptures against one another. To do that is to divide Paul against Paul, and Christ against Christ - and it cannot stand.

Probably the biggest source of confusion on this matter is Paul, for in some places he speaks of being under the Law, in other places being freed from the Law - seemingly contradictory. Hence all of your verses are from Paul. But one must be careful when quoting Paul, for Paul's use of the word "Law" does not always refer to the same thing. People who quote him haphazardly think that it refers exclusively to the Mosaic Law, but this is not so.


Romans 3:27-31 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 [r]For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works [s]of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the [t]circumcised by faith and the [v]uncircumcised through faith is one.

31 Do we then nullify [w]the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

There are a few notable things in this passage. The first is that he speaks of "a law of faith" in contrast to works of the law. So he has here introduced a new usage of the term "Law" referring to something contrasted to the Mosaic Law. And it is by this Law of Faith that he says that a man is justified. The next thing to note is that he says that this Law of Faith does not nullify the Mosaic Law, but establishes it!

So, yes, the Mosaic Law will not save you. But that doesn't mean it is unimportant and can simply be discarded like people are prone to do. While the Old Covenant may not be as good as the New, it has not yet disappeared - and will not until all things are complete.


Romans 7:21-22 I find then the [n]principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God [o]in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in [p]the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner [q]of the law of sin which is in my members.

Here we see two more laws being spoken of by Paul: the law of God, which he rejoices in, and the law of sin in his members, in his body. The Law of God is good, and what he wants to obey. The Law of Sin is what is in his body, which tries to stop him from doing what is good. This he says at the end of chapter 7. He begins the very next chapter by saying:


Romans 8:1-11 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For [U]the law of the Spirit of life [a]in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of [c]sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is [d]alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies [e]through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Here we see Paul further expounding upon the "law of the Spirit in Christ Jesus" (aka, "the law of God" in chapter 7) versus the "law of sin and of death." Here we see that the fundamental difference has to do with what one's mind is set on. For while Paul still had the law of sin reigning over his members, yet his mind was set on the law of God. In contrast, Paul says that one who has their mind set on the flesh cannot please God.

In contrast, those who set their minds on following the law of Faith, the law of the Spirit, the law of God, these people are said to be of the Spirit and ARE capable of pleasing God. In verse four it says that thanks to Jesus' sacrifice, "[He condemned sin in the flesh,] so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Those who are of the Spirit CAN fulfill the law. And what does the law require of us?


Romans 13:10 Love [f]does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

This is what is required of us: love. And love is most certainly attainable by anyone whose mind and heart are set on the Law of God, the Law of Faith, the Law of the Spirit - who walk in Christ.

In chapter 10 he contrasts that righteousness that is found in Christ with the righteousness of the Jews.


Romans 10:1-13 Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2 For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3 For not knowing about God’s righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the [a]end [or [B]goal] of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is [b]based on law shall live [c]by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness [d]based on faith speaks as follows: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 [e]that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, [f]resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, [g]resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be [h]disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

We see here a repeat of his earlier sentiment about how those in the Spirit CAN fulfill the law. Of these he cites the Deutoronomy passage which states "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart." Don't ask who will ascend into heaven or descend into the abyss so that you can understand and do these things - you are fully equipped to do what is right if you know God, if you understand his will, if you follow the Spirit.

The error of the Jews is not that they were zealous for God or that they sought righteousness - but that they invented their own righteousness that was not founded upon the knowledge of God. But this knowledge has been preached to us, it is available to all who seek the truth.


It is not good theology to build doctrine on Old Testament scripture.

Jesus is the end and the fulfillment of the Old Testament. From now on the "The Just Shall Live By Faith" Romans 1:17. Not by rules, laws or religion.

While Jesus was dying on the cross God tore the veil that covered the "Holy of Holies" from the top to the the bottom, Matthew 27:51. This signified the end of the Old Covenant, the law and the Jewish religion.

The law is good because it reveals the righteousness of God. And it is our schoolmaster that brings us to Christ.

Scripture does not contradict scripture as you seem to believe. If you live according to law, you will be judged by the law and condemned. Jesus, in your name and on your behalf fulfilled the law and abolished it. To continue to live by law is a denial of the Gospel and justification by faith.

jamie
April 16th, 2016, 07:41 AM
James was the head of the church in Jerusalem. James sent them.


The men came from the Jerusalem congregation but there is no scripture that says they were sent by anyone.

On the contrary, the leaders of the Jerusalem congregation sent a letter to Antioch, Syria and Cillicia saying: "Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, 'You must be circumcised and keep the law'— to whom we gave no such commandment..." (Acts 15:24)

Why don't stick to scripture instead of bearing false witness against Jesus' brother?

csuguy
April 16th, 2016, 07:57 AM
It is not good theology to build doctrine on Old Testament scripture.

First off, all those passages in that last post were from Romans - the New Testament. Second off, it is ridiculous to assert that good theology is not built off of the Old Testament! Everything in the New Testament scriptures is rooted in the Old Testament. Remember that Christ did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill the law and the prophets. In Christ we find the resolution of the problems, promises, and prophecies of the Old Testament. Jesus himself, as well as the disciples and Paul, were all Jews who studied the Old Testament scriptures. Their teachings are all rooted in these scriptures, and they frequently quote the Old Testament in the New Testament. You are way off base.



Jesus is the end and the fulfillment of the Old Testament. From now on the "The Just Shall Live By Faith" Romans 1:17. Not by rules, laws or religion.

Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets, not to abolish them. To truly understand who Christ is and what he accomplished, and will accomplish, one must have a firm grasp of the Old Testament. He didn't abolish rules, law, or religion. That is non-sense. Rather, he instructed us to go forth and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to obey the commandments. He taught that love was the fulfillment of the Law, and instructed us to love one another as he has loved us - even our enemies.

Furthermore, as taught in James 2, faith without works is dead. You speak of faith but clearly have no understanding of what that means. Belief apart from works has no meaning and cannot save you. It is when we act according to how Christ taught us to act that salvation is possible. It is when we do the will of the Lord that we are saved. For you must lose your life to save it.

You constantly attack the concept of "religion" - but the scriptures make no criticism of the concept of religion. You are simply reading your own private ideas into the scriptures. Rather the scriptures tell us what religion is pleasing and acceptable to the Lord.


While Jesus was dying on the cross God tore the veil that covered the "Holy of Holies" from the top to the the bottom, Matthew 27:51. This signified the end of the Old Covenant, the law and the Jewish religion.

Wrong.


Matthew 5:17-20 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.


The law is good because it reveals the righteousness of God. And it is our schoolmaster that brings us to Christ.

Scripture does not contradict scripture as you seem to believe. If you live according to law, you will be judged by the law and condemned. Jesus, in your name and on your behalf fulfilled the law and abolished it. To continue to live by law is a denial of the Gospel and justification by faith.

I did not assert that scripture contradicted - but rather called you out on attempting to provide scriptures that you felt conflicted with the ones I provided as a means of ignoring them. You have yet to address the fact that under the New Covenant, God's Law is written on our hearts and minds. To deny the law - which has NOT been abolished - is to deny God's place in your heart and mind. You cannot be a Christian and reject God's will and commandments.

patrick jane
April 16th, 2016, 08:16 AM
You cannot be a Christian and reject God's will and commandments.
You have no clue what Jesus was saying. He was speaking to the lost sheep, duh.

Matthew 15:24 KJV - You forget WHO Jesus was sent to

jamie
April 16th, 2016, 08:31 AM
You have no clue what Jesus was saying. He was speaking to the lost sheep, duh.

Matthew 15:24 KJV - You forget WHO Jesus was sent to


We are the lost sheep ... we are the Israel of God. Ethnicity is irrelevant. We are children of Abraham by faith. (Galatians 3:28-29)

steko
April 16th, 2016, 08:45 AM
We are the lost sheep ... we are the Israel of God. Ethnicity is irrelevant. We are children of Abraham by faith. (Galatians 3:28-29)

There is no justification for taking truths for the BOC according to the mystery revealed thru Paul and retroactively cramming them back into Matthew....truth for the nation of Israel.

csuguy
April 16th, 2016, 08:56 AM
You have no clue what Jesus was saying. He was speaking to the lost sheep, duh.

Matthew 15:24 KJV - You forget WHO Jesus was sent to

Jesus was sent initially to the Jews, but this was never intended to be the extent of his outreach. Hence he commanded his disciples to go and make disciples of all nations.


We are the lost sheep ... we are the Israel of God. Ethnicity is irrelevant. We are children of Abraham by faith. (Galatians 3:28-29)

^ This!

Romans 2:25-29 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice [v]the Law; but if you are a transgressor [w]of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the [x]uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who [y]though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor [z]of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Romans 9:6-8 ... For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s [d]descendants, but: “[e]through Isaac your [f]descendants will be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as [g]descendants.

jamie
April 16th, 2016, 11:06 AM
There is no justification for taking truths for the BOC according to the mystery revealed thru Paul and retroactively cramming them back into Matthew....truth for the nation of Israel.


Ha, ha, very funny, it was Paul who said, "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6:15-16)

Too bad you don't believe the mystery revealed thru Paul.

steko
April 16th, 2016, 11:09 AM
Ha, ha, very funny, it was Paul who said, "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God." (Galatians 6:15-16)

Too bad you don't believe the mystery revealed thru Paul.

Who was first in the BOC?

Who was first in the nation of Israel?

jamie
April 16th, 2016, 11:22 AM
Who was first in the BOC?


Moses.

jamie
April 16th, 2016, 11:23 AM
Who was first in the nation of Israel?


Its King.

steko
April 16th, 2016, 11:45 AM
Moses.

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets
Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

The BOC is a new creation built upon the Apostles, with Christ being the chief cornerstone.

steko
April 16th, 2016, 11:57 AM
Its King.

Gen_32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen_35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.
Exo_33:16 For wherein shall it be known here that I and thy people have found grace in thy sight? is it not in that thou goest with us? so shall we be separated, I and thy people, from all the people that are upon the face of the earth.
Lev_20:24 But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.

Israel was a particular man whose name GOD changed to Israel, out of whom proceeded the twelve sons/tribes. They were created by GOD to be a separate people unto GOD as His inheritance.
Words in the Bible mean certain things.
Israel is not the BOC.

jamie
April 16th, 2016, 01:07 PM
Israel is not the BOC.


Was Moses a Christian?

jamie
April 16th, 2016, 01:13 PM
The BOC is a new creation built upon the Apostles, with Christ being the chief cornerstone.


Christ is the one who brought his ecclesia out of Egypt and gave them his Spirit. The NT church of God is a new creation built on a different priesthood, a change in the law, and a different temple but with the same everlasting covenant.

steko
April 16th, 2016, 02:54 PM
Was Moses a Christian?

No, Moses was an Israelite and a Levite.

jamie
April 16th, 2016, 03:41 PM
No, Moses was an Israelite and a Levite.


Are Israelites and Levites precluded from being Christians? If so, by whom?

csuguy
April 16th, 2016, 03:46 PM
Are Israelites and Levites precluded from being Christians? If so, by whom?

Obviously at the time, Moses and other Jews had no clue who the Son was. They were not Christians. However, there is plenty of scriptural evidence to point out that Moses did come to know Christ after his death - for he appeared alive with Christ in the NT.

At any rate, the Body of Christ should not be thought limited to NT Christians. The Body of Christ is spiritual Israel, which we have been merged onto.

jamie
April 16th, 2016, 04:14 PM
Obviously at the time, Moses and other Jews had no clue who the Son was. They were not Christians.


Moses was not a Jew, he was a Levite.


...esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt, for he looked to the reward. (Hebrews 11:26)

He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. (NIV)

csuguy
April 16th, 2016, 04:27 PM
Moses was not a Jew, he was a Levite.


...esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt, for he looked to the reward. (Hebrews 11:26)

He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. (NIV)

The Levites are one of the Tribes of Israel; of course they were Jews.