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Sonnet
April 6th, 2016, 02:32 AM
In the Old Testament there are numerous occasions where polygamy occurs and yet there is no explicit reprimand.

1 Kings 15:5
For David had done what was right in the eyes of the Lord and had not failed to keep any of the Lord’s commands all the days of his life—except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.

And yet we know this:

2 Samuel 5:13
After he left Hebron, David took more concubines and wives in Jerusalem, and more sons and daughters were born to him.

This is adultery but nowhere in scripture is David reprimanded for it. Indeed, Nathan implies that David would have been given more:

2 Samuel 12:7-10
Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. Why did you despise the word of the Lord by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’

In Matthew 19:8, Jesus, speaking on divorce, makes this astonishing statement:

“Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning".

May we explain polygamy in the same way - that it was permitted (Exodus 21:10, Deuteronomy 21:15-17) but in no way God's intention?

Sonnet
April 6th, 2016, 02:52 AM
Jesus references Deuteronomy 24:1 in Matthew 19:8:

If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house,

CherubRam
April 6th, 2016, 03:07 AM
There were many women and few men. It was a matter of survival. Having more than one spouse is not recommended.

Sonnet
April 6th, 2016, 03:15 AM
There were many women and few men. It was a matter of survival. Having more than one spouse is not recommended.

You mean because of war...more men were killed...and women needed to be cared for?

Sonnet
April 6th, 2016, 03:35 AM
There were many women and few men. It was a matter of survival. Having more than one spouse is not recommended.

You are right - it isn't recommended. In fact it is a breach of the seventh commandment.

For some, it is the elephant in the room...a reason to distrust Jesus. For why say 'thou shalt not commit adultery' and seemingly ignore the fact that David had more than one wife...David was an adulterer before Bathsheba.

Matthew 19:8 may be the explanation.

CherubRam
April 6th, 2016, 03:50 AM
You mean because of war...more men were killed...and women needed to be cared for?


You are right - it isn't recommended. In fact it is a breach of the seventh commandment.

For some, it is the elephant in the room...a reason to distrust Jesus. For why say 'thou shalt not commit adultery' and seemingly ignore the fact that David had more than one wife...David was an adulterer before Bathsheba.

Matthew 19:8 may be the explanation.


Matthew 19:8
8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. (WIVES-Plural)

Men were permitted to have more than one wife. And yes, because of war and other problems men were permitted for the well being of all concerned. Males produce male sperm mainly when they are young or much older. Between the age 28 and 50+ something, men produce mainly female sperm.

Sonnet
April 6th, 2016, 03:56 AM
Matthew 19:8
8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. (WIVES-Plural)

Men were permitted to have more than one wife. And yes, because of war and other problems men were permitted for the well being of all concerned. Males produce male sperm mainly when they are young or much older. Between the age 28 and 50+ something, men produce mainly female sperm.

Jesus only uses the plural because he is talking to a crowd of Pharisees. He isn't talking about polygamy in this scripture. The seventh commandment forbids polygamy.

So does Romans 7:1ff. The woman would, in God's eyes, be considered still married if her husband is still alive - so the taking of another would be polygamous and adulterous.

Sonnet
April 6th, 2016, 04:00 AM
Matthew 19:8
8 He said to them, “Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. (WIVES-Plural)

Men were permitted to have more than one wife. And yes, because of war and other problems men were permitted for the well being of all concerned. Males produce male sperm mainly when they are young or much older. Between the age 28 and 50+ something, men produce mainly female sperm.

Mat 19:3
Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

Wife - singular.

CherubRam
April 6th, 2016, 04:08 AM
Mat 19:3
Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

Wife - singular.

Wife - singular is a question about (a wife.)

CherubRam
April 6th, 2016, 04:13 AM
Jesus only uses the plural because he is talking to a crowd of Pharisees. He isn't talking about polygamy in this scripture. The seventh commandment forbids polygamy.

So does Romans 7:1ff. The woman would, in God's eyes, be considered still married if her husband is still alive - so the taking of another would be polygamous and adulterous.

Thou shalt not commit adultery. Adultery is sexual relations while being married, outside of marriage.

Sonnet
April 6th, 2016, 04:14 AM
Wife - singular is a question about (a wife.)

Indeed. Perhaps I haven't worded my OP clearly enough.

In Matthew 19:8, Jesus explains that divorce was permitted (Deuteronomy 24:1) but only because of the hardness of men's hearts. It wasn't what God intended from the beginning. I am trying to explain the separate issue of polygamy using the same principle - permitted but not intended by God.

I hope that makes sense?

Sonnet
April 6th, 2016, 04:15 AM
Thou shalt not commit adultery. Adultery is sexual relations outside of marriage.

Which includes marrying another person...it would be sexual relations outside the (first) marriage.

Sonnet
April 6th, 2016, 04:17 AM
Romans 7:1-3
Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

CherubRam
April 6th, 2016, 04:20 AM
Indeed. Perhaps I haven't worded my OP clearly enough.

In Matthew 19:8, Jesus explains that divorce was permitted (Deuteronomy 24:1) but only because of the hardness of men's hearts. It wasn't what God intended from the beginning. I am trying to explain the separate issue of polygamy using the same principle - permitted but not intended by God.

I hope that makes sense?


People in heaven do not marry. Marriage was introduced by Adam and approved by God.

CherubRam
April 6th, 2016, 04:22 AM
Which includes marrying another person...it would be sexual relations outside the (first) marriage.

Thou shalt not commit adultery. Adultery is sexual relations while being married, outside of marriage.

CherubRam
April 6th, 2016, 04:25 AM
Romans 7:1-3
Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives? For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law that binds her to him. So then, if she has sexual relations with another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress if she marries another man.

Women were not permitted to remarry while their ex-husband was still alive.

Sonnet
April 6th, 2016, 04:31 AM
Women were not permitted to remarry while their ex-husband was still alive.

You are not, surely, suggesting that men were permitted? Paul gives the example of a woman but it applies to men too. After all, his point is about the law lasting until their death.

Sonnet
April 6th, 2016, 04:33 AM
Thou shalt not commit adultery. Adultery is sexual relations while being married, outside of marriage.

You are implying that polygamy does not constitute adultery?

Sonnet
April 6th, 2016, 04:37 AM
Matthew 19:8-9 says otherwise:
Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Jesus implies that the divorced man/woman is still considered married in God's eyes. If they marry another, it is still adultery, even though they have married.

CherubRam
April 6th, 2016, 04:56 AM
You are implying that polygamy does not constitute adultery?

Polygamy does not constitute adultery. Marriage is for the benefit for all concerned, but most of all, for the women and children. Under normal circumstance it is best that a man have only one wife. You need to understand that our lives and life style are not like those who lived many years ago.


1 Timothy 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

1 Timothy 3:12
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

Titus 1:6
If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.

CherubRam
April 6th, 2016, 05:06 AM
Matthew 19:8-9 says otherwise:
Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Jesus implies that the divorced man/woman is still considered married in God's eyes. If they marry another, it is still adultery, even though they have married.
I checked the translation and it is not 100% correct. The subject is about a woman remarrying, not the man.

Matthew 19:8-9 (KJV)
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and SHE shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

CherubRam
April 6th, 2016, 05:10 AM
You are not,surely, suggesting that men were permitted? Paul gives the example of a woman but it applies to men too. After all, his point is about the law last until their death.

Life is not fair Sonnet, but there are reasons for everything. Again, you must take into consideration of how very different things were in those days.

Sonnet
April 6th, 2016, 01:45 PM
I checked the translation and it is not 100% correct. The subject is about a woman remarrying, not the man.

Matthew 19:8-9 (KJV)
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and SHE shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

I believe you added 'she' for I did not find it in the KJV. None of the translation have it as you suggest:

New International Version
I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

New Living Translation
And I tell you this, whoever divorces his wife and marries someone else commits adultery--unless his wife has been unfaithful."

English Standard Version
And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”

Berean Study Bible
Now I tell you that whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman, commits adultery."

Berean Literal Bible
And I say to you that whoever shall divorce his wife except for sexual immorality, and shall marry another, commits adultery."

New American Standard Bible
"And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

King James Bible
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And I tell you, whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery."

International Standard Version
I tell you that whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."

NET Bible
Now I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another commits adultery."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But I say to you, “Whoever divorces his wife apart from adultery and will take another, commits adultery, and whoever will take her who is divorced commits adultery.”

GOD'S WORD® Translation
I can guarantee that whoever divorces his wife for any reason other than her unfaithfulness is committing adultery if he marries another woman."

New American Standard 1977
“And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

Jubilee Bible 2000
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication and shall marry another, commits adultery, and whosoever marries her that is put away commits adultery.

King James 2000 Bible
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery: and whoever marries her who is put away does commit adultery.

American King James Version
And I say to you, Whoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery: and whoever marries her which is put away does commit adultery.

American Standard Version
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her when she is put away committeth adultery.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.

Darby Bible Translation
But I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, not for fornication, and shall marry another, commits adultery; and he who marries one put away commits adultery.

English Revised Version
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth her when she is put away committeth adultery.

Webster's Bible Translation
And I say to you, Whoever shall put away his wife, except for lewdness, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoever marrieth her who is put away, committeth adultery.

Weymouth New Testament
And I tell you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except her unfaithfulness, and marries another woman, commits adultery."

World English Bible
I tell you that whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and he who marries her when she is divorced commits adultery."

Young's Literal Translation
'And I say to you, that, whoever may put away his wife, if not for whoredom, and may marry another, doth commit adultery; and he who did marry her that hath been put away, doth commit adultery.'

Sonnet
April 6th, 2016, 01:52 PM
Clearly, Jesus taught that being married to two or more wives constituted adultery. Jesus, in Matthew 19:9, considered the man who divorced his wife (for reasons other than sexual immorality) to still be married to her; so, in marrying someone else, he became guilty of adultery.

Therefore, polygamy is adultery.

Sonnet
April 6th, 2016, 01:54 PM
Life is not fair Sonnet, but there are reasons for everything. Again, you must take into consideration of how very different things were in those days.

This is assertion. You have not proved that there was one rule for men and another for women regarding Romans 7

Sonnet
April 6th, 2016, 02:13 PM
Women were not permitted to remarry while their ex-husband was still alive.

You are promoting polygyny?

Sonnet
April 7th, 2016, 12:37 AM
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Polygamy does not constitute adultery. Marriage is for the benefit for all concerned, but most of all, for the women and children. Under normal circumstance it is best that a man have only one wife. You need to understand that our lives and life style are not like those who lived many years ago.

For the women concerned their husband is effectively committing adultery. However, it may be the least worst option especially in the case of population imbalance and where culture discriminated against women leading to vulnerability.

Sonnet
April 7th, 2016, 03:03 AM
Would appreciate other's views regarding this rather troubling matter.