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meshak
April 5th, 2016, 01:13 PM
Jesus followers should not endorse any kind of violent practice such as joining the military.

Here is my verses to back up my claim:

Luke 6:27-36 King James Version)

27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32For if ye love them which love you what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34And if ye to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Fatheralso is merciful.

and some more:

Matthew 26:52
“Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.

Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."
John 18:36

And His faithful disciple harmonize with Jesus' word:

For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. (2 corinthian 10:4-5)

Romans 12:17-21
17Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head." 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

II Corinthians 10:3,4
"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds."

Ephesians 6:12
"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."

jamie
April 5th, 2016, 02:07 PM
Pacifism?

We do not live in first century Judea. Today we live in a world filled with adversaries. I don't believe you would like living under Sharia law where you would be executed for your beliefs. Who is going to keep that from happening? The pacifists?

You attack the military but what about law enforcement? Law enforcement officers are issued weapons and trained how to use them if circumstances warrant. Is it okay for an officer to defend himself or others when deadly force is required?

Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, it is for the world to come and his teachings were geared to that end. Aggression toward the Romans in first century Judea would have been futile as history has proven. Jesus taught non-aggression toward the Romans because of the futility of it.

You don't live in first century Judea, you live in a world today that is dangerous beyond comprehension.

The U.S. will be attacked, no doubt about it, but when that happens Christ will intervene on our behalf and many will be killed.

Totton Linnet
April 5th, 2016, 02:47 PM
Yet she believes God is using the muslims armed to the teeth to punish the trins...some pacifism

Totton Linnet
April 5th, 2016, 02:49 PM
We see Roman soldiers being baptised and saved.

Totton Linnet
April 5th, 2016, 02:51 PM
Paul teaches that the soldier is an institution of God to reward the righteous and to punish the unrighteous.

john w
April 5th, 2016, 02:51 PM
Exodus 15:3 KJV The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.

No, the lowly Galilean fisherman, being the alleged "pacifist," "sweet baby lying in a manger," harmless, would not....


John 2:15 KJV and when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;.....


....would, He?


Good day to you, sir.

meshak
April 5th, 2016, 02:58 PM
Pacifism?

We do not live in first century Judea. Today we live in a world filled with adversaries. I don't believe you would like living under Sharia law where you would be executed for your beliefs. Who is going to keep that from happening? The pacifists?

You attack the military but what about law enforcement? Law enforcement officers are issued weapons and trained how to use them if circumstances warrant. Is it okay for an officer to defend himself or others when deadly force is required?

Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, it is for the world to come and his teachings were geared to that end. Aggression toward the Romans in first century Judea would have been futile as history has proven. Jesus taught non-aggression toward the Romans because of the futility of it.

You don't live in first century Judea, you live in a world today that is dangerous beyond comprehension.

The U.S. will be attacked, no doubt about it, but when that happens Christ will intervene on our behalf and many will be killed.

So you ignore Jesus' word to justify your violent faith.

You are protesting against Him, not me.

I am only a messenger.

john w
April 5th, 2016, 03:26 PM
So you ignore Jesus' word to justify your violent faith.

You are protesting against Him, not me.

I am only a messenger.

Revelation 19 KJV
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Good day to you, sir. You are on ignore/un-ignore.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 03:43 PM
Jesus followers should not endorse any kind of violent practice such as joying the military.

Here is my verses to back up my claim:

Luke 6:27-36 King James Version)

27But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32For if ye love them which love you what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34And if ye to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36Be ye therefore merciful, as your Fatheralso is merciful.

and some more:

Matthew 26:52
“Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

Matthew 5:9
Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.

Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."
John 18:36

And His faithful disciple harmonize with Jesus' word:

For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. (2 corinthian 10:4-5)

Romans 12:17-21
17Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head." 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

II Corinthians 10:3,4
"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds."

Ephesians 6:12
"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."

You haven't read the Old Testament. There's plenty of wars going on and God is on the side of the Israelites.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 03:45 PM
Meshak has hardened her heart and mind against the truth of the Bible. She's a stubborn woman who has a problem with Spiritual blindness. She clings to her ignorance as if it were a stuffed animal.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 03:49 PM
Hey Meshak, Jesus made Himself up a whip and chased the money-changers out of the Temple. Was He being violent in your opinion?

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 03:52 PM
Remember folks, Jesus is God in the flesh. He's the same God who backed the Israelites in their wars against their enemies. God does sanction war according to His will.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 03:56 PM
Ananias and Sapphira were struck dead by God for lying to the Holy Spirit. Was He being kind to them?
This happened in the New Testament Meshak.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 03:58 PM
God, at times, has been harsh (by our sensitivities) however, He is a Holy and Just God.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 04:00 PM
God will be the ONE who will judge the unsaved and have them cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity. This is our God. His will comes first!

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 04:02 PM
Some people think Jesus is nothing but, meek and mild. They are ignorant of who and what He is.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 04:04 PM
Did God draw the USA into WW2 against the evil Nazi regime? Perhaps He did? He allowed the destruction of Hitler and his armies.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 04:07 PM
Was it God's will that the wicked Saddam Hussein be taken out? Perhaps? After all, God is still in control. Even Satan has to come to God to get permission to attack a "True Believer" as is the case of Job.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 04:09 PM
We know for a fact that God chose to have Israel go to war against certain factions/nations in the Old Testament. He helped them to destroy their enemies.

jamie
April 5th, 2016, 04:10 PM
Meshak, God made a covenant with Christ and Abraham by which salvation is offered to all families of the earth. We live under that covenant according to Paul. When Abraham's nephew was kidnapped what did Abraham do? Did he pray for his enemies or did he go get Lot?

Melchizedek said, "And blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
And he (Abraham) gave him a tithe of all.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 04:11 PM
Hebrews 10:31 "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 04:14 PM
Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 04:15 PM
Do not underestimate the power and will of Almighty God!

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 04:18 PM
Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever."

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 04:21 PM
Christ was with God the Father before creation. Christ Himself created all that is. Christ is God. The Father and the Holy Spirit are God. These three are ONE.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 04:24 PM
Meshak decided a long time ago to look into one side of the Godhead. She doesn't know the whole story and doesn't want to. She's like a little child who places her fingers in her ears so she can't hear all of the truth.

Jacob
April 5th, 2016, 04:36 PM
Matthew 5:44 NASB - 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Luke 6:28 NASB - 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

Lazy afternoon
April 5th, 2016, 04:50 PM
Some people think Jesus is nothing but, meek and mild. They are ignorant of who and what He is.

Jesus is not His own Father, and is not all that the Father is.

Jesus is our example of what the Father desires us to be and live by.

We are no longer in the age of blood, but of the Holy Spirit.

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

That instruction is given to the disciples of Christ.

LA

Lazy afternoon
April 5th, 2016, 04:53 PM
Meshak decided a long time ago to look into one side of the Godhead. She doesn't know the whole story and doesn't want to. She's like a little child who places her fingers in her ears so she can't hear all of the truth.

All of these stupid things you say will be reminded to you at the judgment to see if you are that which you condemn others by.

LA

Totton Linnet
April 5th, 2016, 05:00 PM
Being a soldier [even an officer] was never a hindrance to being saved

meshak
April 5th, 2016, 05:11 PM
Meshak, God made a covenant with Christ and Abraham by which salvation is offered to all families of the earth. We live under that covenant according to Paul. When Abraham's nephew was kidnapped what did Abraham do? Did he pray for his enemies or did he go get Lot?

Melchizedek said, "And blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
And he (Abraham) gave him a tithe of all.

You don't seem to know what the "Lord" means.

His Father gave Him authority to be our Lord, Savior and the Teacher.

And His Father also said "listen to Him."

You are rejecting both Father and Jesus, friend.

steko
April 5th, 2016, 05:18 PM
You don't seem to know what the "Lord" means.

His Father gave Him authority to be our Lord, Savior and the Teacher.

And His Father also said "listen to Him."

You are rejecting both Father and Jesus, friend.


Jer 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD[YHVH], that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he[the Branch] shall be called, THE LORD[YHVH] OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

meshak
April 5th, 2016, 05:18 PM
This teaching is not hard to understand.

It is just hard to accept.

there are many faithful ones who have no problem understanding this simple instruction.

His followers have responsibility to spread God's kingdom to the world.

We should not get involved with the world's wicked system.

Jesus also says let the dead bury their own dead.

The world will take care of itself without God's people get involved with their wicked deeds.

Two wrongs won't make one right.

Nick M
April 5th, 2016, 05:23 PM
Matthew 21

12 Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves.

Mark 11

15 So they came to Jerusalem. Then Jesus went into the temple and began to drive out those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. 16 And He would not allow anyone to carry wares through the temple. 17 Then He taught, saying to them, “Is it not written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations’? But you have made it a ‘den of thieves.’

John 2

13 Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business. 15 When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers’ money and overturned the tables. 16 And He said to those who sold doves, “Take these things away! Do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise!” 17 Then His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for Your house has eaten Me up.”


https://apprenticeinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/the-expulsion-from-the-temple-1.jpg

https://fellowshipofminds.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/jesus-expels-money-changers2.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/Valentin_de_Boulogne,_Christ_Driving_the_Money_Cha ngers_out_of_the_Temple.jpg

The other issue is Meshak has not read the Revelation if she thinks "Jesus" is a pacifist.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 05:25 PM
This teaching is not hard to understand.

It is just hard to accept.

there are many faithful ones who have no problem understanding this simple instruction.

His followers have responsibility to spread God's kingdom to the world.

We should not get involved with the world's wicked system.

Jesus also says let the dead bury their own dead.

The world will take care of itself without God's people get involved with their wicked deeds.

Two wrongs won't make one right.

You're just filled to the brim with cliches aren't ya?

john w
April 5th, 2016, 05:25 PM
Two wrongs won't make one right.

Add the above to "You can run, but not hide from the truth."

Stunning.


Good day to you, sir.

steko
April 5th, 2016, 05:28 PM
Jesus is not His own Father, and is not all that the Father is.

Jesus is our example of what the Father desires us to be and live by.

We are no longer in the age of blood, but of the Holy Spirit.

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

That instruction is given to the disciples of Christ.

LA

That instruction was not a universal mandate for believers, everywhere, in every time.
It was said to the eleven who were certain to die by the sword of the temple guard who vastly outnumbered them that night.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 05:28 PM
Jesus is not His own Father, and is not all that the Father is.

Jesus is our example of what the Father desires us to be and live by.

We are no longer in the age of blood, but of the Holy Spirit.

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

That instruction is given to the disciples of Christ.

LA

LA you have nothing of real substance to add. Move along nothing to see here.

meshak
April 5th, 2016, 05:29 PM
It is clear that military supporting Christians are patriot.

Jesus' followers are supposed work for God's kingdom. Their citizenship belong to God's kingdom, not earthly country.

this is one of basic Christian principles.

Tambora
April 5th, 2016, 05:30 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzxwtadd2Xo

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 05:33 PM
All of these stupid things you say will be reminded to you at the judgment to see if you are that which you condemn others by.

LA

Your ignorance is admirable.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 05:35 PM
It is clear that military supporting Christians are patriot.

Jesus' followers are supposed work for God's kingdom. Their citizenship belong to God's kingdom, not earthly country.

this is basic Christian principle.

You KNOW very little.

Nick M
April 5th, 2016, 05:36 PM
It is clear that military supporting Christians are patriot.

Jesus' followers are supposed work for God's kingdom. Their citizenship belong to God's kingdom, not earthly country.

this is basic Christian principle.


Matthew 21

12 Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves.

Mark 11

15 So they came to Jerusalem. Then Jesus went into the temple and began to drive out those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. 16 And He would not allow anyone to carry wares through the temple. 17 Then He taught, saying to them, “Is it not written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations’? But you have made it a ‘den of thieves.’

John 2

13 Now the Passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14 And He found in the temple those who sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the money changers doing business. 15 When He had made a whip of cords, He drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen, and poured out the changers’ money and overturned the tables. 16 And He said to those who sold doves, “Take these things away! Do not make My Father’s house a house of merchandise!” 17 Then His disciples remembered that it was written, “Zeal for Your house has eaten Me up.”

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 05:36 PM
Add the above to "You can run, but not hide from the truth."

Stunning.


Good day to you, sir.

She made those up. What a genius.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 05:37 PM
No doubt she had some help from LA though?

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 05:39 PM
Hey, Meshak "You can hide but you can't think."

john w
April 5th, 2016, 05:44 PM
She made those up. What a genius.

Next up:It is, what it is?

meshak
April 5th, 2016, 05:47 PM
It seems that MADists are strong patriots.

Another bad witness or fruit.

You need to know your loyalty should belong to Jesus, not your country because you claim to be Christians.

meshak
April 5th, 2016, 05:54 PM
Jesus also says His followers are salt and light of the world.

We are no different from the world if we get involved with bloody affair of the world.

steko
April 5th, 2016, 05:56 PM
Jesus also says His followers are salt and light of the world.

We are no different from the world if we get involved with bloody affair of the world.

No, He was telling the believing remnant of Israel that they were the salt of the earth.

You're reading somebody else's mail.

steko
April 5th, 2016, 06:02 PM
Jesus also says His followers are salt and light of the world.

We are no different from the world if we get involved with bloody affair of the world.

Welcome aboard!

steko
April 5th, 2016, 06:05 PM
It seems that MADists are strong patriots.

Another bad witness or fruit.

You need to know your loyalty should belong to Jesus, not your country because you claim to be Christians.

Loyalty to the Lord Jesus and loyalty to a country founded on Biblical principles is not mutually exclusive.

patrick jane
April 5th, 2016, 06:06 PM
No, He was telling the believing remnant of Israel that they were the salt of the earth.

You're reading somebody else's mail.
23899

Tambora
April 5th, 2016, 06:07 PM
I support the military.
Jesus love me.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 06:15 PM
Next up:It is, what it is?

Or, "You'll never go broke spending other people's money."

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 06:19 PM
Jesus also says His followers are salt and light of the world.

We are no different from the world if we get involved with bloody affair of the world.

Then, stop paying your bills and see what happens.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 06:21 PM
This teaching is not hard to understand.

It is just hard to accept.

there are many faithful ones who have no problem understanding this simple instruction.

His followers have responsibility to spread God's kingdom to the world.

We should not get involved with the world's wicked system.

Jesus also says let the dead bury their own dead.

The world will take care of itself without God's people get involved with their wicked deeds.

Two wrongs won't make one right.

It's always darkest before the dawn dear.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 06:24 PM
It is clear that military supporting Christians are patriot.

Jesus' followers are supposed work for God's kingdom. Their citizenship belong to God's kingdom, not earthly country.

this is one of basic Christian principles.

There's a light at the end of the tunnel sweety.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 06:27 PM
It seems that MADists are strong patriots.

Another bad witness or fruit.

You need to know your loyalty should belong to Jesus, not your country because you claim to be Christians.

A penny saved is a penny earned dear.

Tambora
April 5th, 2016, 06:32 PM
A penny saved is a penny earned dear.I used to save pennies in jars.

steko
April 5th, 2016, 06:35 PM
I used to save pennies in jars.

I throw my change in a coffee can....can't stand it jinglin' in me pockets.

Tambora
April 5th, 2016, 06:54 PM
I throw my change in a coffee can....can't stand it jinglin' in me pockets.I had several of those half gallon milk bottles.
I filled one with pennies for each of my children with the years they were born. (All in the 70's.)

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 07:06 PM
Hey, Meshak A word to the wise is sufficient.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 5th, 2016, 07:06 PM
The early bird catches the worm.

kenjacobsen
April 5th, 2016, 08:32 PM
Revelation 19 KJV
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Good day to you, sir. You are on ignore/un-ignore.

Is it actually possible that an adult could be so stunningly ignorant as to think that Jesus is actually fighting actual real people and riding a real horse somewhere while holding a real sword in his mouth??

I can't imagine anyone over ten years old believing that.

meshak
April 5th, 2016, 10:06 PM
Prophesy is full of symbolism.

You are supposed to read contextually.

Many of you don't seem to know that God is love. He is not sadistic God.

meshak
April 5th, 2016, 10:14 PM
If you read God as sadistic, that's what you will get.

As for me, God is love.

I wait for peaceful and loving God's kingdom He promised to His followers.

steko
April 5th, 2016, 10:16 PM
Is it actually possible that an adult could be so stunningly ignorant as to think that Jesus is actually fighting actual real people and riding a real horse somewhere while holding a real sword in his mouth??

I can't imagine anyone over ten years old believing that.

Still stuck in unbelief....huh?

steko
April 5th, 2016, 10:17 PM
Prophesy is full of symbolism.

You are supposed to read contextually.

Many of you don't seem to know that God is love. He is not sadistic God.

Do you read the Bible contextually?

meshak
April 5th, 2016, 10:28 PM
It is just like Jesus' first coming down to earth, they expected Jesus to be Jews' king and destroy Romans who are oppressing.

But Jesus did not do that.

You are expecting Jesus wrong again repeating the same mistake about His role.

When are you going to realize or learn about God and Jesus' love?

6days
April 5th, 2016, 10:52 PM
No, the lowly Galilean fisherman, being the alleged "pacifist," "sweet baby lying in a manger," harmless, would not....


John 2:15 KJV and when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;.....


....would, He?


Good day to you, sir.
I don't think it's quite that simple, to use that one verse to dismiss all arguments from 'pacifists'. We need to look at all of Christ's teachings. Although I am not in total agreement with Meshak, she does present scripture that we need to wrestle with, and try to understand in context..... and try to make it relevant in our lives. How does "love your enemy" look like when you are drafted to fight the Vietcong? Are you justified in killing "enemy" soldiers simply because of your duty to country? I dunno... Likewise would German soldiers who were Christians in WW2 be justified in killing American soldiers because of duty to country?? I am sympathetic to brothers and sisters in Christ....sincere followers of Jesus who are pacifist to one degree or another.

meshak
April 5th, 2016, 11:00 PM
John 2:15 KJV and when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;.....

You use this to claim Jesus is advocate killing people?

this has been refuted over and over.

Jesus did not harm anyone. All He did was drving out of the temple using the whip. It is so laim excuse.

meshak
April 5th, 2016, 11:03 PM
I don't think it's quite that simple, to use that one verse to dismiss all arguments from 'pacifists'. We need to look at all of Christ's teachings. Although I am not in total agreement with Meshak, she does present scripture that we need to wrestle with, and try to understand in context..... and try to make it relevant in our lives. How does "love your enemy" look like when you are drafted to fight the Vietcong? Are you justified in killing "enemy" soldiers simply because of your duty to country? I dunno... Likewise would German soldiers who were Christians in WW2 be justified in killing American soldiers because of duty to country?? I am sympathetic to brothers and sisters in Christ....sincere followers of Jesus who are pacifist to one degree or another.

You are trying to find the loopholes to justify violent faith.

In Jesus time was no different, it was violent everywhere. Jesus and His disciples did not get involved with any of it. They got killed instead. Read the OP.

kenjacobsen
April 5th, 2016, 11:08 PM
Still stuck in unbelief....huh?

Are you over 18?

kenjacobsen
April 5th, 2016, 11:13 PM
I don't think it's quite that simple, to use that one verse to dismiss all arguments from 'pacifists'. We need to look at all of Christ's teachings. Although I am not in total agreement with Meshak, she does present scripture that we need to wrestle with, and try to understand in context..... and try to make it relevant in our lives. How does "love your enemy" look like when you are drafted to fight the Vietcong? Are you justified in killing "enemy" soldiers simply because of your duty to country? I dunno... Likewise would German soldiers who were Christians in WW2 be justified in killing American soldiers because of duty to country?? I am sympathetic to brothers and sisters in Christ....sincere followers of Jesus who are pacifist to one degree or another.

Wouldn't it be better to follow the teachings of Christ, assuming you call yourself a Christian, rather than "wrestling" with them?

Could they possibly be clearer, since Jesus backed up his words with his own innocent suffering and death rather than strike back, like these blood thirsty hypocrites want to do?

6days
April 5th, 2016, 11:17 PM
You are trying to find the loopholes to justify violent faith.
Not at all Meshak...Sorry you got that impression.
I'm glad you are part of the TOL community.

meshak
April 5th, 2016, 11:26 PM
Jesus' followers are representative of Jesus. we have responsibility to witness to the world that God is love.

Jesus was sent to teach us how to love.

Killing each other is not Jesus' way.

"love your enemy" is core of Jesus' teachings.

We should not call ourselves His followers if we don't like or accept what Jesus has to say.

"love your enemy" message does not need explanation. It is self-explanatory.

meshak
April 5th, 2016, 11:34 PM
the west is known as Christian country and they have been deeply involved with the war, beginning with RCC and protestants are following her.

We are not much different from Muslim country with our action.

two wrongs do not make one right.

meshak
April 5th, 2016, 11:36 PM
The world will continually kill each other, but Jesus' followers should stay out of it for Jesus' name sake.

meshak
April 5th, 2016, 11:38 PM
we are dragging Jesus' name down to our level with our violent faith.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 6th, 2016, 12:32 AM
we are dragging Jesus' name down to our level with our violent faith.

Speak for yourself dear.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 6th, 2016, 12:33 AM
the west is known as Christian country and they have been deeply involved with the war, beginning with RCC and protestants are following her.

We are not much different from Muslim country with our action.

two wrongs do not make one right.

A bird in the hand is worth more than two in the bush sweety.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 6th, 2016, 12:35 AM
the west is known as Christian country and they have been deeply involved with the war, beginning with RCC and protestants are following her.

We are not much different from Muslim country with our action.

two wrongs do not make one right.

Why don't you go to Iran and North Korea and try to make peace dear?

Grosnick Marowbe
April 6th, 2016, 12:37 AM
Not at all Meshak...Sorry you got that impression.
I'm glad you are part of the TOL community.

At least she has one admirer.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 6th, 2016, 12:39 AM
Prophesy is full of symbolism.

You are supposed to read contextually.

Many of you don't seem to know that God is love. He is not sadistic God.

Many may not know this, but Meshak is as ignorant as they come.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 6th, 2016, 12:42 AM
You use this to claim Jesus is advocate killing people?

this has been refuted over and over.

Jesus did not harm anyone. All He did was drving out of the temple using the whip. It is so laim excuse.

Thank you dear. Now you on ignore. Good evening Sir.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 6th, 2016, 12:43 AM
Are you over 18?

Is there anything inside your skull?

Grosnick Marowbe
April 6th, 2016, 12:48 AM
Hey, Meshak, you now off ignore dear. Watch what you say though or I'll put you back on ignore Sir.

steko
April 6th, 2016, 06:26 AM
It is just like Jesus' first coming down to earth, they expected Jesus to be Jews' king and destroy Romans who are oppressing.

But Jesus did not do that.

You are expecting Jesus wrong again repeating the same mistake about His role.

When are you going to realize or learn about God and Jesus' love?

Were the prophets and the Holy Spirit wrong, then?

Luk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
Luk 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
Luk 1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
Luk 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
Luk 1:71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

meshak
April 6th, 2016, 06:50 AM
Christians who are going after popularity or majority will not go for pacifism. It is not politically correct.

there are many politically incorrect Jesus' teachings.

That's why Jesus says narrow is the Gate to lead to life, and only a few find it.

We should be careful what we choose or adopt in our lives.

jamie
April 6th, 2016, 08:11 AM
Killing does not necessarily mean murder, there is a difference. A difference that you have somehow missed.

Loving your neighbor is like concentric circles where your closest neighbor is your family, then those who need help, then friends and acquaintances, then your adversaries such as Satan and Satan inspired persons.

The military and law enforcement officers who kill in defense of themselves or others don't hate the person, they hate the person's actions.

Loving your enemy means respecting their humanity but not their evil actions.

Jesus loves his enemies but will kill them if need be. God loved Ananias and Sapphira but hated their actions and relieved them of life.

We are called on to judge righteous judgment in mercy and love, but that does not preclude the death penalty for capital crimes. I believe it is much more merciful to execute persons who commit capital crimes than to cage a person for life without parole. We can deal with them in the second resurrection. No problem. We kill the body but not the soul. Jesus said the flesh profits nothing.

meshak
April 6th, 2016, 09:26 AM
Killing does not necessarily mean murder, there is a difference.

This is popular excuse and majority accepted in the USA.

You can excuse away all you want. It will not change the fact the Jesus and His disciples did not kill anyone or endorse to kill for self-defense or any reason in NT times.

they are a good example to follow. And read the OP again.And find out how many you are dismissing or disregarding for your convenience.

john w
April 6th, 2016, 09:54 AM
Is it actually possible that an adult could be so stunningly ignorant as to think that Jesus is actually fighting actual real people and riding a real horse somewhere while holding a real sword in his mouth??

I can't imagine anyone over ten years old believing that.


I'm only nine years old. I'm quite brilliant, for a nine year old, don't you reckon, Hop Sing? And Professor Demas is ignorant, not knowing the biblical principle of how metaphors, figures of speech, allegories....are employed, to "strengthen" literal events.


Now, you are not a "real" poster, so thanks for checking in, and please take your seat-way in the back...

Acts 4:13 KJV saint John W

john w
April 6th, 2016, 10:00 AM
You use this to claim Jesus is advocate killing people?

this has been refuted over and over.

Jesus did not harm anyone. All He did was drving out of the temple using the whip. It is so laim excuse.

vs. This mess's "argument" that "Jesus," which she mutters in disrespect, was a "pacifist," while employing a whip, and driving out the devil's children, from His Father's house.

Without a clue. Good day to you, sir.

patrick jane
April 6th, 2016, 10:03 AM
This is popular excuse and majority accept in the USA.

You can excuse away all you want. It will not change the fact the Jesus and His disciples did not kill anyone or endorse to kill for self-defense or any reason in NT times.

they are a good example to follow. And read the OP again.And find out how many you are dismissing or disregarding for your convenience.

You are such a drain on this forum, constantly accusing Christians of doing wrong and acting as if you live in the time of Jesus. Please find a new activity

Eric h
April 6th, 2016, 10:56 AM
The U.S. will be attacked, no doubt about it, but when that happens Christ will intervene on our behalf and many will be killed.

America certainly acts as if God is on their side, but I am not sure that is true.

The only time a sword is used by St Peter, Jesus tells him to put the sword away, so when does Jesus say it is ok to use a sword to kill?

jamie
April 6th, 2016, 11:20 AM
...so when does Jesus say it is ok to use a sword to kill?


Jesus said that he existed before Abraham. In Exodus 21:23 he instructed life for life when warranted.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 6th, 2016, 11:28 AM
You are such a drain on this forum, constantly accusing Christians of doing wrong and acting as if you live in the time of Jesus. Please find a new activity

Perhaps she could design and sell those silly hats she wears?

Grosnick Marowbe
April 6th, 2016, 11:32 AM
Christians who are going after popularity or majority will not go for pacifism. It is not politically correct.

there are many politically incorrect Jesus' teachings.

That's why Jesus says narrow is the Gate to lead to life, and only a few find it.

We should be careful what we choose or adopt in our lives.

You is now on eggnore Sir.

kenjacobsen
April 6th, 2016, 12:21 PM
I support the military.
Jesus love me.

You believe Jesus loves you?

Then why do you respond by loudly and proudly despising what he taught, rejecting the example he set and mocking his Spirit?
If Jesus were around today you'd be laughing at him and mocking him as he hung on the cross, for refusing to take up arms and defend himself.

kenjacobsen
April 6th, 2016, 12:24 PM
Killing does not necessarily mean murder, there is a difference. A difference that you have somehow missed.

Loving your neighbor is like concentric circles where your closest neighbor is your family, then those who need help, then friends and acquaintances, then your adversaries such as Satan and Satan inspired persons.

The military and law enforcement officers who kill in defense of themselves or others don't hate the person, they hate the person's actions.

Loving your enemy means respecting their humanity but not their evil actions.

Jesus loves his enemies but will kill them if need be. God loved Ananias and Sapphira but hated their actions and relieved them of life.

We are called on to judge righteous judgment in mercy and love, but that does not preclude the death penalty for capital crimes. I believe it is much more merciful to execute persons who commit capital crimes than to cage a person for life without parole. We can deal with them in the second resurrection. No problem. We kill the body but not the soul. Jesus said the flesh profits nothing.

Please give me an example of Jesus killing an enemy.
He chose instead to be killed by his enemies -to be slowly tortured to death rather than fight back.
Have you ever read the gospels? Do you not believe that what it says actually happened?
Why claim to be a Christian and openly reject Jesus' example?
Who are you going to fool?

HisServant
April 6th, 2016, 12:34 PM
The military is a necessary evil. In the early church, we see members forbidden to join the military, but those who are already in are encouraged to fulfill their duties to the best of their abilities. We also see former military people being required to seek an equal time in penance, when they were forbidden to teach and lead within the church.

Overall, we are called to live peaceably with everyone, to love and pray for our enemies. Civil government is not the domain of the church and should always be viewed as separate and should never be mixed with religion, for the government holds the power of the sword for our own good and protection.

That said, I believe that Jesus' preaching was one of practical pacifism.

jamie
April 6th, 2016, 12:35 PM
Have you ever read the gospels?


I skimmed through them one day. Does that count?

Tambora
April 6th, 2016, 12:41 PM
You believe Jesus loves you?Absolutely!



Then why do you respond by loudly and proudly despising what he taught, rejecting the example he set and mocking his Spirit?
I loudly and proudly proclaim what the scriptures say.

Romans 5 KJV

(18) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

(19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.


It's not my righteousness or obedience that saved me.
I'm not the one.



If Jesus were around today you'd be laughing at him and mocking him as he hung on the cross, for refusing to take up arms and defend himself.Are you sure what you just said is truth?

Grosnick Marowbe
April 6th, 2016, 01:00 PM
Please give me an example of Jesus killing an enemy.
He chose instead to be killed by his enemies -to be slowly tortured to death rather than fight back.
Have you ever read the gospels? Do you not believe that what it says actually happened?
Why claim to be a Christian and openly reject Jesus' example?
Who are you going to fool?

What church/denomination are you affiliated with?

Grosnick Marowbe
April 6th, 2016, 01:04 PM
I skimmed through them one day. Does that count?

If you consider yourself to be a child of God, it behooves you to read/study His entire Word. Word for word, name by name, cover to cover.

steko
April 6th, 2016, 01:04 PM
If Jesus were around today you'd be laughing at him and mocking him as he hung on the cross, for refusing to take up arms and defend himself.

What a presumptuous and horrible accusation!

Grosnick Marowbe
April 6th, 2016, 01:05 PM
The Bible is the inspired written word of God.

Tambora
April 6th, 2016, 01:12 PM
Matthew 10:34 KJV
(34) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

kenjacobsen
April 6th, 2016, 01:13 PM
I'm only nine years old. I'm quite brilliant, for a nine year old, don't you reckon, Hop Sing? And Professor Demas is ignorant, not knowing the biblical principle of how metaphors, figures of speech, allegories....are employed, to "strengthen" literal events.


Now, you are not a "real" poster, so thanks for checking in, and please take your seat-way in the back...

Acts 4:13 KJV saint John W

So you actually believe that Jesus will someday somewhere kill living human beings with a sword he's holding in his mouth while riding a horse?

kenjacobsen
April 6th, 2016, 01:13 PM
Matthew 10:34 KJV
(34) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

And you think he's referring to a literal actual sword?? Hello?

Jesus, if you ever bother to read what he said, taught his followers to be harmless as doves and wise as serpents.

Since you’re a proud gun-toter and military supporter you clearly reject his teaching that his followers must be harmless as a dove.
Is it because you’re ignorant of Jesus’ teachings or a willful hypocrite?

kenjacobsen
April 6th, 2016, 01:15 PM
What a presumptuous and horrible accusation!

Unfortunately it looks quite correct.

For the time being, she's practicing on Meshak.

Tambora
April 6th, 2016, 01:15 PM
And you think he's referring to a literal actual sword?? Hello?Do you think he's talking about a literal actual peace??

Tambora
April 6th, 2016, 01:40 PM
If Jesus were around today you'd be laughing at him and mocking him as he hung on the cross, for refusing to take up arms and defend himself.

What a presumptuous and horrible accusation!
Could just as easily predict that kenjacobsen would mock God for all His killings, instead of God being a pacifist and just turning the other cheek rather than killing all but 8 folks in the flood.

john w
April 6th, 2016, 02:10 PM
So you actually believe that Jesus will someday somewhere kill living human beings with a sword he's holding in his mouth while riding a horse?

Slower: You actually believe that the bible does not employ figures of speech, metaphors, similes, allegories, to reveal, strengthen truths, including literal truths, to give special emphasis, to call attention to the point, including adding "force" or power to an expression. Often, obviously, when employed these figures of speech, metaphors,....are non sensical if taken literally, but the words are clear and literal, meant to convey a deeper lesson or application, such as in a parable, a "spiritual" application also, and are put together in a grammatical, or structural way, that brings emphasis to the point.

Go ahead and assert that you do not, nor have you ever, employed figures of speech, similes, metaphors, and that all languages do not. Go ahead.

Now, who is the ignorant grade school tike in this discussion, rummy?

Sit.

jamie
April 6th, 2016, 02:22 PM
...and wise as serpents.


The devil you say.

:Popcorn:

jamie
April 6th, 2016, 02:24 PM
If you consider yourself to be a child of God, it behooves you to read/study His entire Word. Word for word, name by name, cover to cover.


What? You think I missed something? :rotfl:

meshak
April 6th, 2016, 02:30 PM
What? You think I missed something? :rotfl:

You think Christianity is just a game. It is no wonder you don't know the core of Christianity.

john w
April 6th, 2016, 02:37 PM
And you think he's referring to a literal actual sword?? Hello?

Jesus, if you ever bother to read what he said, taught his followers to be harmless as doves and wise as serpents.

Since you’re a proud gun-toter and military supporter you clearly reject his teaching that his followers must be harmless as a dove.
Is it because you’re ignorant of Jesus’ teachings or a willful hypocrite?

You really believe that "Jesus"'s followers are literally serpents and doves?

See how that works?

Eric h
April 6th, 2016, 02:47 PM
Matthew 10:34 KJV
(34) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

But when Peter used his sword, Jesus told him to put it away, so what is it to be?

meshak
April 6th, 2016, 03:56 PM
But when Peter used his sword, Jesus told him to put it away, so what is it to be?

their claims are easily being refuted, yet they keep bring up cheap shot claims.

That proves they are not reading the bible much.

Tambora
April 6th, 2016, 04:00 PM
But when Peter used his sword, Jesus told him to put it away, so what is it to be?Wasn't the time for it.



Ecclesiastes 3:1-8 KJV

(1) To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

(2) A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;

(3) A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;

(4) A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;

(5) A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

(6) A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

(7) A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

(8) A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.


But there will be a time for it.
Christ will return and there's gonna be some killing goin on.

Tambora
April 6th, 2016, 04:02 PM
their claims are easily being refuted, yet they keep bring up cheep shot claims.

That proves they are not reading the bible much.I brought up the words of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The words of the Lord Jesus Christ are not cheap shots.

Tambora
April 6th, 2016, 04:09 PM
Revelation 19:11 KJV
(11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.


Doesn't sound like much of a pacifist.

Eric h
April 6th, 2016, 04:43 PM
But there will be a time for it.
Christ will return and there's gonna be some killing goin on.

In the meantime, we are commanded to love God and our neighbour, we can do nothing greater.

Tambora
April 6th, 2016, 04:46 PM
Revelation 19:15 KJV
(15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Doesn't sound like a pacifist.

john w
April 6th, 2016, 04:50 PM
But when Peter used his sword, Jesus told him to put it away, so what is it to be?

One more time, for the babes/sheep....

The LORD God of Division


"So there was a division among the people because of him.....And there was a division among them.....There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings."-John 7:43 KJV, John 9:16 KJV, John 10:19 KJV
__________________________________________________ ____

Intra/trans-dispensational principle: The LORD God of Division


"...and God divided the light from the darkness." Genesis 1:4 KJV


Do you remember, during the "Christmas season," the often played, now dead David Bowie/Bing Crosby rendition of "The Little Drummer Boy?" Mr. Bowie/most of the Christ rejecting world, sings the oft-repeated phrase, "Peace on Earth" as its main message. This is the predominantly Christ-rejecting world's interpretation/understanding of the message of Christmas. However, according to the Holy Bible, which is "...true from the beginning...."(Psalms 119:160 KJV), this is not the message of Christmas.

Yes, the words "peace on earth" are in the Holy Bible, but they are not in the Christmas account. The Lord Jesus Christ does speak of "peace on earth":

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34 KJV

Notice: a sword divides/separates-it does not unify/"bring together"

The word of God is likened to a "twoedged sword"-survey Hebrews 4:12 KJV...Ephesians 6:17 KJV.

Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:..." Luke 12:51 KJV

Both times the Lord Jesus Christ spoke of "peace on earth", He said, in simple terms that left no doubt as to his intended meaning, that he was not bringing it. He did not bring it when he was on earth, and he does not bring it today. And the verse the "world" traditionally understands(and embraces) to say "peace on earth", actually says:


"Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men." Luke 2:14 KJV

This speaks of God's peace toward each man in the person of the Lord Jesus Christ, not peace between men.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the "great divider." The world is quite willing to accept a "sweet little baby lying in the manger", but mention the Lord Jesus Christ and his cross, and that he is a "...man of war...."(Exodus 15:3 KJV), and he, and anyone that proclaims his message, becomes unwelcome guests, with "...no room for them in the inn"(Luke 2:7 KJV)-division.

The same inevitable fate awaits those that are faithful to rightly dividing the word of truth, 2 Timothy 2:15 KJV, a biblical command, not suggestion-you will be in the minority, and you will be the cause of division. But "...Be of good cheer..."(Acts 23:11 KJV). Scripturally, strength in numbers is not only ill-founded, it is not true. Scripture provides abundant testimony to this fact. Consider "the minority":

Noah-only 7 people saved by the LORD through Noah. And yet Noah is called "...a preacher of righteousness...." in 2 Peter 2:5 KJV-this should be an encouragement to those who feel they are the only one preaching the gospel of the grace of God.

Joseph-all his brothers opposed him

David- took on a giant

Elijah- outnumbered 450 to one(1 Kings 18:22 KJV)

Gideon-Had only 300 men(31,700 eliminated -Judges 6-7)

Paul- "...all men forsook me...."(2 Tim. 4:16 KJV).

The Lord Jesus Christ-No commentary is needed here.

The bible is a book of details, and therefore, I pay attention to details.

"Grace and peace..."-Paul, "the apostle of the Gentiles"(Romans 11:13 KJV), and thus our apostle, over, and over...

Notice, the order: Grace, then peace....Not vice verse.


There is no peace, w/o first grace.

What this world, and "Christianity" needs is not more "popular" teaching, but more unpopular preaching. I say "Split, split, split, and keep splitting." Split, split,.......... until the light of rightly dividing the word of truth, division, cuts through all the smoke and fog.

Division is what the "Commander in Chief," the Lord Jesus Christ, "brought to the table," during His ministry on this grave yard, known as earth,and is what Paul was taught to bring, often, upon direct orders from the risen, glorified, ascended, and seated same Commander, "the Lord from heaven,"(1 Cor. 15:47 KJV), to those who rebel against the doctrine the Saviour committed to him......

"Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them."-Romans 16:17 KJV


... and that is what I often bring to the table, shaking respective members of the body of Christ, out of their slumber, and, marking/exposing/identifying the rebels against Paul, and confronting the lost, with the "transdispensational" principle, a question, and directive, they will, eventually, need to address, as it is written....


"...Who is on the Lord’s side?... "... choose you this day whom ye will serve; ..."(Exodus 32:26 KJV,Joshua 24:15 KJV)


Yes, there should be no division within the body of Christ, amongst members; however, division is caused within the body, by those who rebel against the doctrine committed to the apostle Paul, that "sound doctrine" that is the Lord Jesus Christ's doctrine, teaching, in this dispensation.

jamie
April 6th, 2016, 05:08 PM
But when Peter used his sword, Jesus told him to put it away, so what is it to be?


Jesus was born to die, that was his mission and he did not need Peter interfering.

Nick M
April 6th, 2016, 05:33 PM
If the departure of the church happened now, and meshak somehow survived 7 years, she would have her flesh pulled apart by the beasts upon the command of God (his name is the Lord Jesus Christ).

meshak
April 6th, 2016, 05:50 PM
Jesus was born to die, that was his mission and he did not need Peter interfering.


Another cheap shot.

Jesus and His disciple did not kill anyone just escapes you.

You said you just read the Bible only once? You should read more especially Matthew, Mark, Luke and John instead of spreading false gospel in the forum.

Jacob
April 6th, 2016, 06:19 PM
meshak,

I do not know where your view comes from. But I do believe that you are promoting pacifism as consistent with what Jesus taught and how He lived. Meaning, that is how you see it. There are different views on this, but the view a person takes should come from Jesus and scripture. One thing is for sure, Jesus loved people and died for it. He did not take up the sword. In this I commend you.

I believe you are opposed to violence, and I am too. Does your view, if you are opposed to violence of all kinds or in all forms, affect your view of pacifism in how you read the Bible, even with your focus on Jesus?

I am against war (thus a pacifist, or was I already a pacifist either by understanding the term or in thought or practice before hearing of the word or concept of war?) and violence, physical aggression, and personal (self-)defense. Jesus and the apostles went to their death preaching the gospel in the love of God. Justice and righteousness are real. But they did not fight, make war, or kill anyone (not even if they had any enemies). What people need to know is that eternal life and the forgiveness of sins is available in Jesus Christ who died for them and rose to life again, never to die again. There is the promise of resurrection for all, though not all are among the righteous. We can live righteous lives. And we don't have to kill anyone. There is no need, in that no need should be seen, if we are to rescue others by the gospel rather than hurt even if others have hurt us. Do you see the rescue aspect, or just righteousness in Jesus? Rescue the perishing. Save the dying.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Do not resist an evil person. Each person is responsible to God for what they themselves do. We can help others to live righteous lives. We ought ourselves to live righteous lives. We ought to love one another, as brothers and sisters in Christ, and to love the world (to love unbelievers) without becoming entangled in their sin. Each of us ought to confess our sins to God that we would be healed. Living righteous and holy lives means living lives free from sin, and this should be for everyone.

meshak
April 6th, 2016, 06:24 PM
Thank you Jacob for your input.

Jacob
April 6th, 2016, 07:27 PM
Thank you Jacob for your input.

There was a typo in one of the sentences. I changed it because it should read...

There is the promise of resurrection for all, though not all are among the righteous.

Jacob
April 6th, 2016, 07:28 PM
Luke 14:14 NASB - 14 and you will be blessed, since they do not have the means to repay you; for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous."

Acts 24:15 NASB - 15 having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

jamie
April 6th, 2016, 07:39 PM
You said you just read the Bible only once?


That's not what I said, but why does it matter?

Jacob
April 6th, 2016, 07:41 PM
I changed the following sentence as it was unclear. It read personal defense not (personal) self-defense.

I am against war (thus a pacifist, or was I already a pacifist either by understanding the term or in thought or practice before hearing of the word or concept of war?) and violence, physical aggression, and personal (self-)defense.

patrick jane
April 6th, 2016, 07:50 PM
I changed the following sentence as it was unclear. It read personal defense not (personal) self-defense.

I am against war (thus a pacifist, or was I already a pacifist either by understanding the term or in thought or practice before hearing of the word or concept of war?) and violence, physical aggression, and personal (self-)defense.
Being against self defense is contrary to human nature

meshak
April 6th, 2016, 08:13 PM
Quote Originally Posted by kenjacobsen View Post

Have you ever read the gospels?

I skimmed through them one day. Does that count?

This is what you said.

It sounds like you just read one time.

It does not matter, You don't look like you have read NT many times.

If you have read, you know I am telling the truth that Jesus and His disciples did not kill anyone. And they are good example to follow.

this is basice Christian principle, friend.

meshak
April 6th, 2016, 08:16 PM
Uhhh im pretty sure christianity isn't being pacifist.

If you are true Christian, you should know that Jesus and His disciple did not kill anyone and they are good example to follow for His followers.

Jacob
April 6th, 2016, 08:35 PM
Being against self defense is contrary to human natureIs it consistent with the Spirit of God?

Jacob
April 6th, 2016, 09:01 PM
Uhhh im pretty sure christianity isn't being pacifist.
I believe Christianity, in following Christ, ought to be pacifist, should be pacifist, and when it is practiced in truth is pacifist. Are you saying you are observing something other than Christianity being pacifist, contrary to your better judgment? Or, are you saying you truly believe Christianity is something other than pacifist, or is something that is not pacifist?

Jesus didn't kill in self-defense, and He would not have had his disciples the apostles kill in His defense. Neither did they, as followers of Him.

jamie
April 6th, 2016, 09:49 PM
What's for supper?


Then I saw an angel standing in the sun and he cried with a loud voice saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.” (Revelation 19:17-18)

And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. (Revelation 19:21)

Who sat on the horse?

Jacob
April 6th, 2016, 09:59 PM
What's for supper?


Then I saw an angel standing in the sun and he cried with a loud voice saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.” (Revelation 19:17-18)

And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. (Revelation 19:21)

Who sat on the horse?Revelation 19:11-16 NASB - 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty. 16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."

meshak
April 6th, 2016, 10:12 PM
Well I haven't killed anyone so I'am okay then.

It is not about you, lady. It is about all Jesus' followers.

The fact is Jesus was pacifist, and Jesus' followers should be pacifist too because Christians are Jesus' followers and they follow what He did.

meshak
April 6th, 2016, 10:15 PM
What's for supper?


Then I saw an angel standing in the sun and he cried with a loud voice saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.” (Revelation 19:17-18)

And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. (Revelation 19:21)

Who sat on the horse?

another sleazy shot.

what does this have to do with Jesus did not kill anyone when He was witnessing and teaching to His followers?

He says to follow Him because He set a good example to follow for all of us.

KingdomRose
April 6th, 2016, 11:20 PM
Pacifism?

We do not live in first century Judea. Today we live in a world filled with adversaries. I don't believe you would like living under Sharia law where you would be executed for your beliefs. Who is going to keep that from happening? The pacifists?

You attack the military but what about law enforcement? Law enforcement officers are issued weapons and trained how to use them if circumstances warrant. Is it okay for an officer to defend himself or others when deadly force is required?

Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, it is for the world to come and his teachings were geared to that end. Aggression toward the Romans in first century Judea would have been futile as history has proven. Jesus taught non-aggression toward the Romans because of the futility of it.

You don't live in first century Judea, you live in a world today that is dangerous beyond comprehension.

The U.S. will be attacked, no doubt about it, but when that happens Christ will intervene on our behalf and many will be killed.

So you would cave in and put a pinch of incense on the altar to the pagan Caesar rather than maintain your faithfulness to God & possibly be eaten by lions in the arena? The Christians in the first century would not do what Caesar wanted even though he could kill them.

I believe it is up to a person's conscience as to whether or not he/she will work as a police officer. That analogy doesn't really work. Military and police work are not the same.

Jesus' teachings were geared to everyone the world over, from his day to ours. The world is dangerous now, and it was then. Jesus taught non-aggression because that is what he wants from us! Even if lions would eat us, we must obey his words. You have been sold a bill of goods designed to "tickle" your ears.(2 Timothy 4:3,4) You think Jesus said to love our enemies but only if it's convenient. :down: I don't think he was talking just to hear himself talk.

The U.S. is among those "kings of the earth" that will be destroyed by Jesus and his heavenly army when he comes again. Are you going to align yourself with them and their armies, against Jesus?

(Revelation 19:11-21)

KingdomRose
April 6th, 2016, 11:21 PM
Yet she believes God is using the muslims armed to the teeth to punish the trins...some pacifism

You are judgmental and silly.

KingdomRose
April 6th, 2016, 11:23 PM
We see Roman soldiers being baptised and saved.

Yes, but does it say that they CONTINUED being in the army? I don't think so.:rolleyes:

KingdomRose
April 6th, 2016, 11:24 PM
Paul teaches that the soldier is an institution of God to reward the righteous and to punish the unrighteous.

Where does it say that dear?

Jacob
April 6th, 2016, 11:25 PM
KingdomRose,

We don't have any kings.

KingdomRose
April 6th, 2016, 11:34 PM
Exodus 15:3 KJV The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.

No, the lowly Galilean fisherman, being the alleged "pacifist," "sweet baby lying in a manger," harmless, would not....


John 2:15 KJV and when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables;.....


....would, He?


Good day to you, sir.

Oh be for real. God is "a man of war" for good reason, not like the selfish, cruel, indifferent leaders of the nations today. He is called that because He will war against all of the evil in this world. To get rid of evil, He has to be war-like to some extent, wouldn't you say? Nations today SAY they want to get rid of evil, but every nation is evil!!! Even this one! They send people far away into harm's way and the body bags keep coming back, and for what? OIL INTERESTS? Take your head out of the sand.

And your citing of Jesus chasing the dishonest money-changers out of the Temple is a WEAK example of trying to say he was violent. I read that account far differently than you do, apparently. Where does it say he lost his temper or that he beat anybody other than enthusiastically urging the animals to get out of the temple? Show me where he hit a person with his ropes.

:nono:

KingdomRose
April 6th, 2016, 11:36 PM
You haven't read the Old Testament. There's plenty of wars going on and God is on the side of the Israelites.

So that's your excuse to ignore Jesus?

KingdomRose
April 6th, 2016, 11:37 PM
God will be the ONE who will judge the unsaved and have them cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity. This is our God. His will comes first!

I don't want to know YOUR God.

KingdomRose
April 6th, 2016, 11:59 PM
What's for supper?


Then I saw an angel standing in the sun and he cried with a loud voice saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.” (Revelation 19:17-18)

And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. (Revelation 19:21)

Who sat on the horse?

Look a little closer, honey, and see who it is that get annihilated by the King of kings and Lord of lords.

The "captains" mentioned are the commanders of military troops (see the margin in the NASB). "Kings" are also mentioned---leaders of all the nations, including this one. Also in verse 19---"the kings of the earth and their armies," who are assembled to make war against Jesus. All supporting the contention that you are in a precarious place if you support the military. So who do you side with? Jesus or the kings and their armies?

KingdomRose
April 7th, 2016, 12:08 AM
KingdomRose,

We don't have any kings.

Did you really post that??? OMG. There are plenty of kings in the world today, and presidents are in the same category. So are emirs and other heads of government.

:liberals::duh:

Jacob
April 7th, 2016, 12:25 AM
Did you really post that??? OMG. There are plenty of kings in the world today, and presidents are in the same category. So are emirs and other heads of government.

:liberals::duh:The United States of America has a President, but the President of the United States of America is not a King at all. See Article II Section 1 of The Constitution of The United States of America. "The executive power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America."

Jesus is King, King of the Jews, King of Israel, and even the citizens of the United States of America owe their allegiance to Him, as all should.

Eric h
April 7th, 2016, 12:33 AM
Revelation 19:15 KJV
(15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Doesn't sound like a pacifist.

Nevertheless, we are commanded to obey the greatest commandments,all the law of God hangs and depends on the two greatest commandments, we can do nothing greater. We are commanded not to kill.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 12:49 AM
Nevertheless, we are commanded to obey the greatest commandments,all the law of God hangs and depends on the two greatest commandments, we can do nothing greater. We are commanded not to kill.

Are you a Jehovah Witness? There's a big difference between killing and murdering. During times of war, killing is necessary. To plan to kill somebody and lie in wait for them is considered murder.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 12:52 AM
I don't want to know YOUR God.

Well, that's because you're a JW cultist and not a Christian. So, naturally you don't have a desire to know the God of the Bible.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 12:56 AM
So that's your excuse to ignore Jesus?

Who said I want to ignore Jesus? You did, because you're a cultist and not a Christian. Most Christians on TOL will not accept you as a true Bible believing Christian because you're not.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 12:57 AM
Mormons and JWs are cultists and not considered to be Christians.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 01:02 AM
JWs and Mormons, etc, don't understand the Bible like a true Christian, because they have been brainwashed into a cult. They're simply not saved and headed for judgement and the Lake of Fire. There's still time to discard your cultist beliefs and become a true child of God. After you leave this world, there is no hope for you.

Eric h
April 7th, 2016, 01:05 AM
But if I have the ability to stop a murder to happen you better believe I will do it. It would be wrong to not stop someone even if it means killing them if their intent is to kill.

A friend of a minister was shot and killed by a gang of young drug users in Jamaica, the minister prayed for a God solution to gang violence. He went out with a few parishioners unarmed and unprotected, to meet up with these gangs and confront them. Over time he seemed to have a profound affect on local gun culture.

The Street Pastor movement was founded on the strength of this ministers experience in 2003. There are now over ten thousand Street pastors in the UK, and it is now starting up in America.

http://www.inspiremagazine.org.uk/Stories/Personal?storyaction=view&storyid=61

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 01:07 AM
You are judgmental and silly.

You are the silly one dear. Why? Because you're part of a cult.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 01:08 AM
Yes, but does it say that they CONTINUED being in the army? I don't think so.:rolleyes:

Your cult won't allow you to see the truth of the Scriptures.

Eric h
April 7th, 2016, 01:09 AM
Are you a Jehovah Witness? There's a big difference between killing and murdering. During times of war, killing is necessary. To plan to kill somebody and lie in wait for them is considered murder.

I am not a JW, but they still have the same greatest commandments.

In war soldiers lie in wait and ambush the enemy, bombs are dropped from a great height, war murder seems no better than any other murder.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 01:10 AM
Yes, but does it say that they CONTINUED being in the army? I don't think so.:rolleyes:

Prove your point with Scripture?

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 01:15 AM
Another cheap shot.

Jesus and His disciple did not kill anyone just escapes you.

You said you just read the Bible only once? You should read more especially Matthew, Mark, Luke and John instead of spreading false gospel in the forum.

You won't read the writings of the Apostle Paul in the Bible because you have said he's an anti-Christ. Your ignorance is quite annoying and just plain naive dear.

meshak
April 7th, 2016, 05:06 AM
The United States of America has a President, but the President of the United States of America is not a King at all. See Article II Section 1 of The Constitution of The United States of America. "The executive power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America."

Jesus is King, King of the Jews, King of Israel, and even the citizens of the United States of America owe their allegiance to Him, as all should.

Jacob, you need to know that every word in the Bible is not used the same word. Kings are head of the country. It is simile with president or dictator or whoever is the head of that nation.

KIngs are head of nations.

chariot and horses are military.

Sward is weapon or God's word

and so on... there are many words like that.

and nation or country are pronouned as female too.

Totton Linnet
April 7th, 2016, 05:35 AM
Where does it say that dear?

Don't you "dear" me...that sounds so much like meshak as to make me wonder if you are not meshak

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers for there is no power but of God, the powers that be are ordained of God

Whosoever then resisteth the power resisteth what God has ordained and they that resist shall receive unto themselves condemnation.

For rulers are not a terror to good works but to the evil. Wilt thou be unafraid of the power? do that which is good and thou shalt have praise of the same.

FOR HE IS A MINISTER OF GOD TO THEE for good, but if thou do evil then be afraid for he beareth not the sword in vain. FOR HE IS THE MINISTER OF GOD a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil....

....for this cause also pay we taxes

Totton Linnet
April 7th, 2016, 05:44 AM
Yes, but does it say that they CONTINUED being in the army? I don't think so.:rolleyes:

John the Baptist was very specific in his instruction as to how the soldiers should conduct themselves as soldiers so they DID continue as soldiers

Totton Linnet
April 7th, 2016, 05:48 AM
You are judgmental and silly.

I have posted twenty times the post in which meshak AGREED with jerzy that God was raising up the muslims to punish the trins. This is when they were beheading dozens of Christians, raping their woman and driving 10s of thousands of them out of their homes.

It is what she believes it is what YOU believe...murderers

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 06:44 AM
Don't you "dear" me...that sounds so much like meshak as to make me wonder if you are not meshak

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers for there is no power but of God, the powers that be are ordained of God

Whosoever then resisteth the power resisteth what God has ordained and they that resist shall receive unto themselves condemnation.

For rulers are not a terror to good works but to the evil. Wilt thou be unafraid of the power? do that which is good and thou shalt have praise of the same.

FOR HE IS A MINISTER OF GOD TO THEE for good, but if thou do evil then be afraid for he beareth not the sword in vain. FOR HE IS THE MINISTER OF GOD a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil....

....for this cause also pay we taxes

Good post

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 06:47 AM
Meshak needs a vacation.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 07:54 AM
If we look at the Old Testament we can see that God was no "Pacifist." He helped His people battle against many. Many thousands of Israels enemies perished before the sword. It's very important to read and study the Old Testament as well as the New. That way we can see all facets of the God we worship.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 07:59 AM
Remember the Godhead is made up of three yet they are one. They are in agreement with one another. So it can be said that Jesus our Lord is not a Pacifist as well as God the Father is not. The Holy Spirit as well. Those who wish to remain ignorant of who and what God is, will not see the entirety of His character and intent.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 08:03 AM
Some insist on creating (in their mind) an image of who they believe God is. It's best to KNOW who and what His character is. We can only establish that by reading and studying the entire Bible.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 08:08 AM
Meshak reads only the four Gospels and lets it go at that. She's not seeing the whole picture, only a partial. She rejects the Apostle Paul and his writings, therefore, she doesn't understand the Gospel of her salvation? She cannot be saved if she rejects God's Grace which is through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. (God in the flesh)

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 08:11 AM
We're living in the "Dispensation of Grace" and must abide by the Grace Gospel as it was given to the Apostle Paul by the ascended Lord Jesus Christ. Without it, we would be lost and headed for judgement and the Lake of Fire for eternity.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 08:12 AM
Many on TOL are religious but not saved. Religion will not save anyone.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 08:15 AM
These do not save:

Religion
Water baptism
Good works/deeds
Church attendance
So called obedience to the Law
Trying to live a good life

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 08:22 AM
God wants our faith. God's Grace is given to those who place their entire faith in His Son. This occurs after one has heard the Gospel of their salvation. After one places their faith these things occur:

You are sealed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit
you receive the righteousness of Christ
You are baptized (not by water) into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit
You are guaranteed eternal life
You will not be judged by your works
You will receive rewards in Heaven when you stand before Christ

Crucible
April 7th, 2016, 08:27 AM
'Pacifism' goes as far as 'turning the other cheek'. In the correct context, it means to not seek revenge or penalty for small things, or otherwise matters which only affect one's self.

But people have turned it into something very different in today's world. They have made it into 'timidity' and 'indifference', which are ironically grave sins.

God often called His people to fight- He uses His people to repel evil according to His providence. We're called to be integral and righteous, and sometimes that includes taking up arms.

'Pacifists' essentially believe in a whole other god. One should be careful not to be sucked into that heresy.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 08:28 AM
If you reject God's free gift of His Grace:

You will stand before God and be judged by your works
You will be cast into the Lake of Fire for eternal torment

No one will end up in the Lake of Fire because of their sins. However, if one rejects God's Grace it will be inevitable. Christ paid the price for the sins of ALL humanity. However, only those who place all their faith in Christ as their Savior will reap the benefits.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 08:30 AM
'Pacifism' goes as far as 'turning the other cheek'. In the correct context, it means to not seek revenge or penalty for small things, or otherwise matters which only affect one's self.

But people have turned it into something very different in today's world. They have made it into 'timidity' and 'indifference', which are ironically grave sins.

God often called His people to fight- He uses His people to repel evil according to His providence. We're called to be integral and righteous, and sometimes that includes taking up arms.

'Pacifists' essentially believe in a whole other god. One should be careful not to be sucked into that heresy.

There is truth in this post.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 08:35 AM
Meshak is extremely annoying however it behooves us "True Believers" to pray for her eyes to be opened to God's Grace. She has heard the Gospel preached here and perhaps other places and thus far has rejected it. There is still hope for her, though. If she leaves this world without God's Grace she will certainly be judged and sentenced.

meshak
April 7th, 2016, 08:37 AM
'Pacifism' goes as far as 'turning the other cheek'. In the correct context, it means to not seek revenge or penalty for small things, or otherwise matters which only affect one's self.

But people have turned it into something very different in today's world. They have made it into 'timidity' and 'indifference', which are ironically grave sins.

God often called His people to fight- He uses His people to repel evil according to His providence. We're called to be integral and righteous, and sometimes that includes taking up arms.

'Pacifists' essentially believe in a whole other god. One should be careful not to be sucked into that heresy.

You are completely dismissing the fact that Jesus and His disciples practiced pacifism.

Your view is not surprising because the Calvin whom you follow were murderer.

Crucible
April 7th, 2016, 08:40 AM
Meshak is extremely annoying however it behooves us "True Believers" to pray for her eyes to be opened to God's Grace. She has heard the Gospel preached here and perhaps other places and thus far has rejected it. There is still hope for her, though. If she leaves this world without God's Grace she will certainly be judged and sentenced.

Meshak seems like a very passive person at heart, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but at the same time it makes such people far more prone of being suckered into the idea of acute pacifism.

It's one of several elements that are hurting Christianity as of late, especially with the attacks the Muslims have suffered on our societies.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 08:43 AM
Meshak seems like a very passive person at heart, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but at the same time it makes such people far more prone of being suckered into the idea of acute pacifism.

It's one of several elements that are hurting Christianity as of late, especially with the attacks the Muslims have suffered on our societies.

True

meshak
April 7th, 2016, 08:44 AM
It's one of several elements that are hurting Christianity as of late, especially with the attacks the Muslims have suffered on our societies.

Pro-military Christians are disgracing and misrepresenting Jesus to the world with their violent faith in His name.

It has been this way since the beginning of RCC, and protestants are following her.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 08:44 AM
You are completely dismissing the fact that Jesus and His disciples practiced pacifism.

Your view is not surprising because the Calvin whom you follow were murderer.

You need to read the entire Bible in order to get your facts straight.

Crucible
April 7th, 2016, 08:47 AM
Your view is not surprising because the Calvin whom you follow were murderer.

Meh.
Must be a day that ends with a 'y' :rolleyes:

The Reformation era was a time of civil unrest. I don't think the 'Pope of Geneva', as he was called, would have been an accomplishment gained from neutrality.

In fact, if we all had followed your pacifism, we'd all be Muslims right now. Or Nazis. Even in so far as your complaint of Calvinism, you'd otherwise be Catholic within a church state.

Either way, it's funny that you believe in something which paradoxically depends on the latter to even exist.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 08:48 AM
Pro-military Christians are disgracing and misrepresenting Jesus to the world with their violent faith in His name.

The Military has been around for a few thousand years. We need a strong military in the USA. Otherwise, the world will be controlled by Communism. The Israelites had a strong military that was blessed by God Himself.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 08:51 AM
Meh.
Must be a day that ends with a 'y' :rolleyes:

The Reformation era was a time of civil unrest. I don't think the 'Pope of Geneva', as he was called, would have been an accomplishment gained from neutrality.

In fact, if we all had followed your pacifism, we'd all be Muslims right now. Or Nazis. Even in so far as your complaint of Calvinism, you'd otherwise be Catholic within a church state.

Either way, it's funny that you believe in something which, paradoxically, depends on the latter to even exist.

If we hadn't of joined the battle against Hitler, we'd have the "Swastika" flying over our nation. The world would as well.

meshak
April 7th, 2016, 08:51 AM
Meh.
Must be a day that ends with a 'y' :rolleyes:

The Reformation era was a time of civil unrest. I don't think the 'Pope of Geneva', as he was called, would have been an accomplishment gained from neutrality.

In fact, if we all had followed your pacifism, we'd all be Muslims right now. Or Nazis. Even in so far as your complaint of Calvinism, you'd otherwise be Catholic within a church state.

Either way, it's funny that you believe in something which, paradoxically, depends on the latter to even exist.

the theme of this thread is about Jesus' pacifism teachings and practice which no one can deny.

All you are doing is coming up with all kinds of excuses which is very lame.

Crucible
April 7th, 2016, 08:52 AM
Pro-military Christians are disgracing and misrepresenting Jesus to the world with their violent faith in His name.


That may be the case for some of them, but at the same time, it is necessary to have a military employed. It's just that simple- God would never ask for an entire nation to made victims of the wicked.

meshak
April 7th, 2016, 08:55 AM
The world will kill each other until the end.

In the meantime, Jesus tells His followers to focus on preaching God's kingdom, not get involved with bloody affair of this world.

His followers are not of the world, says Jesus.

Do you need reference for that? All you need is to read His word.

You people study and argue about your man leaders and their teachings.

so sad.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 08:56 AM
Hey, Meshak you have decided that you wish to remain ignorant of all things Spiritual. That is your right, however, don't expect others to agree with your ignorant views.

meshak
April 7th, 2016, 08:58 AM
That may be the case for some of them, but at the same time, it is necessary to have a military employed. It's just that simple- God would never ask for an entire nation to made victims of the wicked.

another lame excuse.

It does not change the fact Jesus practiced pacifism and tells His follower to do the same.

meshak
April 7th, 2016, 09:00 AM
You guys need to focus on Jesus and His teachings or word, instead of your man leaders and their teachings.

Crucible
April 7th, 2016, 09:00 AM
the theme of this thread is about Jesus' pacifism teachings and practice which no one can deny.

All you are doing is coming up with all kinds of excuses which is very lame.

When God calls His people to war, they cannot lose- this is a very strong theme in the Bible. In fact, this got to into the heads of Catholics during the Crusades.

With Rome, however, they would have destroyed the Jews. The only way they would win against them is if God Himself came down in a like manner of the event at Sodom. With that being the case, God decided to have both Jew and Gentile take Rome through other means, and that's exactly what happened.

You, however, are using that as a way to teach perpetual pacifism.

meshak
April 7th, 2016, 09:03 AM
When God calls His people to war, they cannot lose- this is a very strong theme in the Bible.

Vengeance is Mine, says God. You are not God.

God says to listen to Jesus. But you don't listen to Him.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 09:04 AM
another lame excuse.

It does not change the fact Jesus practiced pacifism and tells His follower to do the same.

The problem is, you don't know the Gospel. Yet, you desire to preach to the world? Wouldn't it make sense to have a grasp on your source material? What is someone were to approach you and ask you how to become a Christian? What would you tell them? Meshak has me on ignore however, these are still good questions for others. Meshak is the Proverbial Ostrich with his head in the sand.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 09:06 AM
Vengeance is Mine, says God. You are not God.

God says to listen to Jesus. But you don't listen to Him.

You don't read and study God's entire written word. You reject most of it and call the Apostle Paul an anti-Christ.

jamie
April 7th, 2016, 09:07 AM
It does not change the fact Jesus practiced pacifism and tells His follower to do the same.


Not true. The Revelation of Jesus Christ makes it clear Jesus is not a pacifist.

Why are you misrepresenting him? As a human Jesus had no need to kill anyone, he was a Jew in subjection to Rome.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 09:07 AM
God wants you to read what Paul has to say, but you refuse?

Crucible
April 7th, 2016, 09:07 AM
Vengeance is Mine, says God. You are not God.

God says to listen to Jesus. But you don't listen to Him.

And God also said this

Jeremiah 48:10
Cursed be he that does the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keeps back his sword from blood.

It's not as simple as you try to make it, meshak.

Eric h
April 7th, 2016, 09:23 AM
There's a big difference between killing and murdering. During times of war, killing is necessary. To plan to kill somebody and lie in wait for them is considered murder.

In war soldiers lie in wait and ambush the enemy, bombs are dropped from a great height, war murder seems no better than any other murder.

Eric h
April 7th, 2016, 09:32 AM
And God also said this

Jeremiah 48:10
Cursed be he that does the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keeps back his sword from blood.

It's not as simple as you try to make it,

Its never simple.

Micah 4

3 He will judge between many peoples
and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.

4 Everyone will sit under their own vine
and under their own fig tree,
and no one will make them afraid,
for the Lord Almighty has spoken.

PureX
April 7th, 2016, 09:43 AM
I actually think Jesus was a pacifist. Simply because he didn't ever take up arms to defend himself nor anyone else. Nor did he ever admonish anyone else to do so. And in his time and place in history, there would have been ample opportunity for him to do either. Also, it is clear to me that his message was one of love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity; all attributes that do not generally support violent retaliation. And, clearly, he did specifically admonish us not to return abuse with same, as he did not return the horrific abuse he suffered, with actual or even the promise of retribution, and even to his own death. Instead, he simply asked God to forgive his tormentors.

Unfortunately, pacifism requires a level of moral faith and belief that is beyond what most of us can muster. And so we just can't envision a world in which a human being would allow themselves to be abused or harmed for the sake of an ideal. So we look for excuses and loopholes in the Bible that will allow us to excuse ourselves from the difficult challenge that Jesus lays before us.

steko
April 7th, 2016, 09:47 AM
Its never simple.

Micah 4

3 He will judge between many peoples
and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.

4 Everyone will sit under their own vine
and under their own fig tree,
and no one will make them afraid,
for the Lord Almighty has spoken.

These and other prophetic verses describe Israel's Messiah's Davidic reign, which the Lord Jesus was offering to Israel during His earthly ministry. Israel refused, therefore these promises are yet future.
Meanwhile, during this present time the gospel of the grace of GOD is being offered for salvation while men and nations are still at war. Believers and non-believers are stuck with surviving for themselves and for their loved ones as best they can.

Paul said for us to be at peace with all men....as much as one's ability.

The Lord will return in the future and lay down the law for the nations.
The Sermon on the Mount is not the core of Christianity for today.

Jacob
April 7th, 2016, 10:36 AM
Jacob, you need to know that every word in the Bible is not used the same word. Kings are head of the country. It is simile with president or dictator or whoever is the head of that nation.

KIngs are head of nations.

chariot and horses are military.

Sward is weapon or God's word

and so on... there are many words like that.

and nation or country are pronouned as female too.

I don't know how what you are saying here relates to what I have said here.

jamie
April 7th, 2016, 11:48 AM
You are completely dismissing the fact that Jesus and His disciples practiced pacifism.


If a woman is being raped should she fight back or be passive?

If she doesn't resist the act could be construed as consensual in a court of law.

meshak
April 7th, 2016, 12:23 PM
If a woman is being raped should she fight back or be passive?

What this has to do with the military?

Do you have to kill the offender to protect yourself?

I don't have to. And I won't.

I won't just let the offender let rape me. I can escape without killing or harming the offender.

Use common sense, lady.

meshak
April 7th, 2016, 12:25 PM
I don't know how what you are saying here relates to what I have said here.

You just said American don't have king.

You don't seem to understand that kings in the Bible is the head of nations.

meshak
April 7th, 2016, 12:28 PM
And God also said this

Jeremiah 48:10
Cursed be he that does the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed be he that keeps back his sword from blood.

It's not as simple as you try to make it, meshak.

You are misusing the scripture to suit your faith.

You are still dismissing the fact Jesus was pacifist and He commands His followers to do the same.

You will not get off the hook on this one.

You can run but you cannot hide, friend.

meshak
April 7th, 2016, 12:34 PM
Not true. The Revelation of Jesus Christ makes it clear Jesus is not a pacifist.

You are reading it to justify your violent faith.

You don't seem to have spirit of going after Jesus' peaceful teachings.

There are many Jesus' followers have no problem understanding Jesus was pacifist, and commands to do the same to His followers.

Crucible
April 7th, 2016, 12:34 PM
You are misusing the scripture to suit your faith.

You are still dismissing the fact Jesus was pacifist and He commands His followers to do the same.

You will not get off the hook on this one.

You can run but you cannot hide, friend.

Coming from someone who denies the Trinity, I don't find that very threatening :wave2:

john w
April 7th, 2016, 12:36 PM
Oh be for real. God is "a man of war" for good reason, not like the selfish, cruel, indifferent leaders of the nations today. He is called that because He will war against all of the evil in this world. To get rid of evil, He has to be war-like to some extent, wouldn't you say? Nations today SAY they want to get rid of evil, but every nation is evil!!! Even this one! They send people far away into harm's way and the body bags keep coming back, and for what? OIL INTERESTS? Take your head out of the sand.




Translated: In my opinion.....

Vs.

Exodus 15:3 KJV The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.


Contrasts.

"Oh be for real"-you

Stumped with that comeback. I'll need to write that one down.






And your citing of Jesus chasing the dishonest money-changers out of the Temple is a WEAK example of trying to say he was violent. I read that account far differently than you do, apparently. Where does it say he lost his temper or that he beat anybody other than enthusiastically urging the animals to get out of the temple? Show me where he hit a person with his ropes.

:nono:

You missed the"argument"-pacifist.


Sit.

meshak
April 7th, 2016, 12:41 PM
Coming from someone who denies the Trinity, I don't find that very threatening :wave2:

You are stuck and going down to unrelated subject.

so typical.

that's the path majority who are in the wide road take.

jamie
April 7th, 2016, 12:45 PM
What this has to do with the military?


It's a metaphor. What if the country is being raped by those who don't like our way of life? Do we resist?

meshak
April 7th, 2016, 12:46 PM
You see, Jesus says we know them by their fruit.

Pro-military position is corrupt fruit.

Jesus does not endorse lip serving faith.

Your doctrine is meaningless if your witnessing is not godly to the world.

Crucible
April 7th, 2016, 12:47 PM
You are stuck and going down to unrelated subject.

so typical.

that's the path majority who are in the wide road take.

Says the person who just brought up my Calvinist belief earlier :doh:

meshak
April 7th, 2016, 12:48 PM
It's a metaphor. What if the country is being raped by those who don't like our way of life? Do we resist?

I don't go into meaningless argument like this.

You are playing "what if" game.

I will not cooperate trying to justify your violent faith.

meshak
April 7th, 2016, 12:49 PM
Says the person who just brought up my Calvinist belief earlier :doh:

That is relevant. You follow Calvin, look at your signature.

Pacifists don't follow any man. They follow Jesus.

Totton Linnet
April 7th, 2016, 12:50 PM
Pacifism comes from the word peace

Jesus said

I have not come to bring peace to the world but a sword

meshak
April 7th, 2016, 12:52 PM
Crucible,

You follow Calvin, that's why you don't follow Jesus' example.

You follow your leaders example. Your leader is Calvin.

I follow my Leader, Jesus.

Totton Linnet
April 7th, 2016, 12:52 PM
Don't you "dear" me...that sounds so much like meshak as to make me wonder if you are not meshak

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers for there is no power but of God, the powers that be are ordained of God

Whosoever then resisteth the power resisteth what God has ordained and they that resist shall receive unto themselves condemnation.

For rulers are not a terror to good works but to the evil. Wilt thou be unafraid of the power? do that which is good and thou shalt have praise of the same.

FOR HE IS A MINISTER OF GOD TO THEE for good, but if thou do evil then be afraid for he beareth not the sword in vain. FOR HE IS THE MINISTER OF GOD a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil....

....for this cause also pay we taxes

This is to be the word which we follow

jamie
April 7th, 2016, 12:56 PM
I don't go into meaningless argument like this.


Yeah, that's because it contradicts your theory. Have you ever read the Hebrew Bible?

When Christ brought Jacob's people out of Egypt they were afraid to conquer the land of Canaan. They wandered for forty years in Arabia because of their pacificity.

meshak
April 7th, 2016, 12:58 PM
Yeah, that's because it contradicts your theory.

You can come up with all kinds of excuses to justify your violent faith.

I will not accommodate you, lady.

HisServant
April 7th, 2016, 12:59 PM
Yeah, that's because it contradicts your theory. Have you ever read the Hebrew Bible?

When Christ brought Jacob's people out of Egypt they were afraid to conquer the land of Canaan. They wandered for forty years in Arabia because of their pacificity.

No, they wandered the 40 years because the created the golden calf while Moses was receiving the 10 commandments. God made them grind up the calf and drink the bitter waters and then were told that only their children would inherit the promised land.

It was because of their unfaithfulness.

Totton Linnet
April 7th, 2016, 01:43 PM
Pacifism must logically include the civil police force


When shackles wanted her husband out she called the police to enforce her will

Jacob
April 7th, 2016, 01:50 PM
You just said American don't have king.

You don't seem to understand that kings in the Bible is the head of nations.
I understand that we don't have a king. We chose to not have a King in the founding of our country.

meshak
April 7th, 2016, 01:54 PM
I understand that we don't have a king. We chose to not have a King in the founding of our country.

But in the Bible, head of the nation is called king. So presidents are kings in Bible term.

all leaders of the nations are kings in bible term.

If you keep that in mind you understand what KR said to you.

Jacob
April 7th, 2016, 01:54 PM
But in the Bible, head of the nation is called king. So presidents are kings in Bible term.
No, we do not have a king.

meshak
April 7th, 2016, 01:57 PM
No, we do not have a king.

Ok, I am done with this.

good day.

meshak
April 7th, 2016, 02:03 PM
Jacob,

You seem to be so out of touch from reality.

I cannot communicate with you.

You don't seem to know what is going on in the world. Just like living like hermit.

You cannot evangelize by being out of touch from reality. Jesus interacted with real people, friend.

You are going extreme of being not be of the world.

We can strive to be not of the world with knowing and interacting with the world.

I hope I am not confusing you again.

this is the pattern I have with you.

meshak
April 7th, 2016, 02:06 PM
OK, Jacob,

I will not derail this topic by talking about your hermit like talk.

jamie
April 7th, 2016, 03:14 PM
No, they wandered the 40 years because the created the golden calf while Moses was receiving the 10 commandments.



And the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, “How long shall I bear with this evil congregation who complain against Me? I have heard the complaints which the children of Israel make against Me. Say to them, ‘As I live,’ says the LORD, ‘just as you have spoken in My hearing, so I will do to you: The carcasses of you who have complained against Me shall fall in this wilderness, all of you who were numbered, according to your entire number, from twenty years old and above. Except for Caleb the son of Jephunneh and Joshua the son of Nun, you shall by no means enter the land which I swore I would make you dwell in. But your little ones, whom you said would be victims, I will bring in and they shall know the land which you have despised. But as for you, your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness. And your sons shall be shepherds in the wilderness forty years and bear the brunt of your infidelity until your carcasses are consumed in the wilderness.

According to the number of the days in which you spied out the land, forty days, for each day you shall bear your guilt one year, namely forty years, and you shall know My rejection. I the LORD have spoken this. I will surely do so to all this evil congregation who are gathered together against Me. In this wilderness they shall be consumed and there they shall die. (Numbers 14:26-35)

john w
April 7th, 2016, 03:14 PM
OK, Jacob,

I will not derail this topic by talking about your hermit like talk.

Revelation 19 KJV
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.


Good day to you, sir. You are on ignore/un-ignore.

Totton Linnet
April 7th, 2016, 05:06 PM
Crucible,

You follow Calvin, that's why you don't follow Jesus' example.

You follow your leaders example. Your leader is Calvin.

Totton Linnet says quoting Jesus "I have not come to bring peace to the world but a sword"

I follow my Leader, Jesus.

Jacob
April 7th, 2016, 06:12 PM
Jacob,

You seem to be so out of touch from reality.

I cannot communicate with you.

You don't seem to know what is going on in the world. Just like living like hermit.

You cannot evangelize by being out of touch from reality. Jesus interacted with real people, friend.

You are going extreme of being not be of the world.

We can strive to be not of the world with knowing and interacting with the world.

I hope I am not confusing you again.

this is the pattern I have with you.

OK, Jacob,

I will not derail this topic by talking about your hermit like talk.
It makes sense to live separate from the world in relation to sin. As for not interacting with the world, I have no idea why you think there is hermit like talk coming from me. I don't even know what you are talking about.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 06:17 PM
It makes sense to live separate from the world in relation to sin. As for not interacting with the world, I have no idea why you think there is hermit like talk coming from me. I don't even know what you are talking about.

That's because you're a hermit.

meshak
April 7th, 2016, 06:36 PM
It makes sense to live separate from the world in relation to sin. As for not interacting with the world, I have no idea why you think there is hermit like talk coming from me. I don't even know what you are talking about.

You see, you just cannot communicate with people.

do you have any friend? Did you have any friend growing up?

john w
April 7th, 2016, 06:41 PM
[/I]

That's because you're a hermit.

Herman's Hermits, or Herman Munster, pops?

john w
April 7th, 2016, 06:42 PM
You see, you just cannot communicate with people.

do you have any friend? Did you have any friend growing up?

I had a friend, who wore the kind of stupid hat, like you do. His name was "Butch," from "Our Gang."


Good day to you, sir.

patrick jane
April 7th, 2016, 06:47 PM
I had a friend, who wore the kind of stupid hat, like you do. His name was "Butch," from "Our Gang."


Good day to you, sir.
He beat Spanky up a few times over Darla, she was my girlfriend when I was 5

kenjacobsen
April 7th, 2016, 06:52 PM
Could just as easily predict that kenjacobsen would mock God for all His killings, instead of God being a pacifist and just turning the other cheek rather than killing all but 8 folks in the flood.

You're openly rejecting Jesus for Moses and you're proud of it!
Why call yourself a Christian?
Who are you fooling other than hypocrites like yourself?

Jacob
April 7th, 2016, 06:57 PM
You see, you just cannot communicate with people.

do you have any friend? Did you have any friend growing up?
I am communicating with you. Of course I have friends. Did you know someone on TOL asked me what my relationship to you is? And I don't know why. I said, "what relationship?" Is that okay? Is it okay with you to say that? I'm just wondering if that is why you are calling me a hermit. I'm 35 and not a hermit at all.

kenjacobsen
April 7th, 2016, 06:58 PM
You really believe that "Jesus"'s followers are literally serpents and doves?

See how that works?

You didn't notice that Christ doesn't day to be doves or serpents?
Your ignorance wouldn't be so disgusting were it not coupled with arrogance.