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Robert Pate
April 4th, 2016, 09:01 AM
What is Calvinism?

Calvinism is a false doctrine that was conceived out of the deranged mind of John Calvin in the mid 1500's. John Calvin was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of people because they would not believe his doctrine of predestination, Google "The Atrocities of John Calvin" If he didn't kill them he made them wish that they were dead. Many refer to Calvinism as reformed theology. Calvinism has nothing to do with the reformation that was led by Martin Luther. The reformation that was led by Martin Luther concerned the doctrine of justification by faith apart from the works of the law. Calvinism and justification by faith are opposing doctrines. Calvin and Luther were acquaintances, but had never met each other. The only thing they had in common was that they both had renounced Catholicism.

What is the Gospel?

The whole Bible is about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. The Old Testament is about how God brought forth a nation and a people from whom the savior of the world would come. When Adam and Eve sinned God promised them a savior. Jesus is the fulfillment of the promise that God made to them. In the Old Testament people were saved by faith in God's promise of a savior. They believed God and were justified by faith, just like Abraham, Romans 4:3. Things have not changed. Today, thousands of years later, people are still justified by faith, mainly faith in God's Son Jesus Christ.

Justification by faith is God's plan of salvation. Paul wrote, "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" Romans 5:1. To be justified by faith means to be justified by Christ. Christ is the justifier, Romans 3:26. Faith is what makes what Jesus has done ours. Justification by faith also means that we believe that Jesus has atoned for our sins and the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. If you don't believe that Jesus has atoned for your sins and the sins of the whole world you don't have faith. If Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world then Jesus is not Lord, if Jesus is not Lord then we are all still in our sins, John 8:24.

Calvinist believe that God selected "Some Certain Persons" before the foundation of the world to be saved and damned the rest to hell. It is not humanly possible to have saving faith in such a horrible God as this. This is not teachable, nor is it believable, that God would do such a horrible thing such as this. The God that so loves the world, John 3:16, now condemns innocent people to hell because they were born after Adam, which is not their fault. This doctrine is in direct conflict with the Gospel of Jesus Christ and justification by faith and is false.

If this doctrine were true, which it is not. Then why didn't God just select everyone to be saved, why just some? Calvinism is nothing new, the Pharisees also believed that they were God's special chosen ones. Jesus refered to them as snakes, hypocrites and children of hell, Matthew 23:1-39. Calvinist have a lot of problems with the Bible, this is why they came up with the "Canons of Dort" that came out of the Synod of Dordrecht in 1619. Any religion or doctrine that needs writings other than the Bible is usually a cult.

Predi
April 5th, 2016, 08:15 AM
I don't think there is a theological system in the world that is error free. Once someone starts to interpret the Bible... human factor is included.

I think what Calvinists do wrong is they misunderstand the terms "election" and "salvation". God does elect certain people, Romans 9 is clear about that, but it has nothing to do with eternity.

Robert Pate
April 5th, 2016, 09:15 AM
I don't think there is a theological system in the world that is error free. Once someone starts to interpret the Bible... human factor is included.

I think what Calvinists do wrong is they misunderstand the terms "election" and "salvation". God does elect certain people, Romans 9 is clear about that, but it has nothing to do with eternity.

If God elected some to salvation and damned the rest to hell, then you have an unjust God that cannot be trusted.

beloved57
April 6th, 2016, 11:35 AM
If God elected some to salvation and damned the rest to hell, then you have an unjust God that cannot be trusted.

Those who teach salvation by works, by what a person does, denies the Gospel.

Robert Pate
April 6th, 2016, 12:15 PM
Those who teach salvation by works, by what a person does, denies the Gospel.

How would you know? You don't even know what the Gospel is.

beloved57
April 6th, 2016, 12:18 PM
How would you know? You don't even know what the Gospel is.
I know when someone teaches salvation by works, by what a person does, like you do.

Robert Pate
April 6th, 2016, 12:23 PM
I know when someone teaches salvation by works, by what a person does, like you do.

You are about as hell bound as they come.

beloved57
April 6th, 2016, 12:23 PM
You are about as hell bound as they come.
You teach salvation by works.

Robert Pate
April 6th, 2016, 12:29 PM
You teach salvation by works.

Of course, Christ work. Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

beloved57
April 6th, 2016, 12:44 PM
Of course, Christ work. Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.
You teach that millions for whom Christ died to save still wind up lost.

Bright Raven
April 6th, 2016, 12:46 PM
You teach that millions for whom Christ died to save still wind up lost.

You do not have a clue as to what the gospel of grace is.

Robert Pate
April 6th, 2016, 12:51 PM
You teach that millions for whom Christ died to save still wind up lost.

God in the person of Jesus Christ provides salvation for everyone, Hebrews 2:9.

So that now, all that do nothing more than call on the Lord can be saved, Romans 10:13.

Isn't that wonderful?

beloved57
April 6th, 2016, 12:52 PM
God in the person of Jesus Christ provides salvation for everyone, Hebrews 2:9.

So that now, all that do nothing more than call on the Lord can be saved, Romans 10:13.

Isn't that wonderful?
You teach salvation by works by what a person does.

Nanja
April 6th, 2016, 02:05 PM
:down:


God in the person of Jesus Christ provides salvation for everyone, Hebrews 2:9.

So that now, all that do nothing more than call on the Lord can be saved, Romans 10:13.

Isn't that wonderful?


You preach a False Gospel of works!



The Gospel of the Grace of God Acts 20:24 speaks of God giving Grace to His Election of Grace Rom. 11:5, those He elected to Salvation in eternity:

2 Tim. 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began



The false man-made gospel of grace teaches that salvation was an offer to all humanity, and that any spiritually dead person can choose to receive salvation by their performing some work or action while still in the flesh / carnal. But scripture clearly refutes that error:


Rom. 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

~~~~~

Robert Pate
April 6th, 2016, 04:25 PM
:down:




You preach a False Gospel of works!



The Gospel of the Grace of God Acts 20:24 speaks of God giving Grace to His Election of Grace Rom. 11:5, those He elected to Salvation in eternity:

2 Tim. 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began



The false man-made gospel of grace teaches that salvation was an offer to all humanity, and that any spiritually dead person can choose to receive salvation by their performing some work or action while still in the flesh / carnal. But scripture clearly refutes that error:


Rom. 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

~~~~~


The only one that has been elected is Jesus Christ. God chose him to be the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

God is no respecter of persons, Acts 10:34.

If you want to be saved you will have to come to Christ as a repentant sinner and call upon him to save you, Romans 10:13.

Nanja
April 6th, 2016, 05:55 PM
If you want to be saved you will have to come to Christ as a repentant sinner and call upon him to save you, Romans 10:13.


That's a false gospel of works, an abomination to the Lord Is. 64:6; Eph. 2:8-9; Titus 3:5!

Rom. 9:22-23
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


~~~~~

Nanja
April 7th, 2016, 07:44 AM
If you want to be saved you will have to come to Christ as a repentant sinner and call upon him to save you, Romans 10:13.


You relentlessly preach a false gospel of works!

~~~~~

TulipBee
April 7th, 2016, 08:07 AM
You relentlessly preach a false gospel of works!

~~~~~
Relentlessly means there is a very high chance God already passed over him leaving him in his natural state he was born in.

Nanja
April 7th, 2016, 08:19 AM
Relentlessly means there is a very high chance God already passed over him leaving him in his natural state he was born in.

Yessir! He was predestined to it Rom. 9:22!

~~~~~

Robert Pate
April 7th, 2016, 08:23 AM
You relentlessly preach a false gospel of works!

~~~~~

Yes, I am saved by works, Christ work.

TulipBee
April 7th, 2016, 08:48 AM
Yes, I am saved by works, Christ work.
Given by God is the opposite of works.
Elects never reject what is given

Robert Pate
April 7th, 2016, 08:55 AM
Given by God is the opposite of works.
Elects never reject what is given

Given by God is a GIFT from God. If salvation has been imposed upon you it is no longer a gift. It is an imposition, not a gift. Chances are that you are under the law and will be judged by the law. You have 0 assurance of your salvation because you are trusting in yourself, what you are and in what you have become, which is religious.

TulipBee
April 7th, 2016, 09:07 AM
Yessir! He was predestined to it Rom. 9:22!

~~~~~
Course God knew pate wants to do what pate wants to do. The devil told pate, "if it feels good, it it!". He naturally does what he does. He likes it ! What other choice does he have other than what his natural mind naturally thinks?

TulipBee
April 7th, 2016, 09:08 AM
Given by God is a GIFT from God. If salvation has been imposed upon you it is no longer a gift. It is an imposition, not a gift. Chances are that you are under the law and will be judged by the law. You have 0 assurance of your salvation because you are trusting in yourself, what you are and in what you have become, which is religious.
Only the "all" gets the gifts Jesus will save the gifted. Those that are gifted will be saved

Epoisses
April 7th, 2016, 09:43 AM
You relentlessly preach a false gospel of works!

~~~~~

You preach a false gospel of hyper-grace where no faith or repentance is required.

Epoisses
April 7th, 2016, 09:44 AM
Relentlessly means there is a very high chance God already passed over him leaving him in his natural state he was born in.

You've never known God, reprobate slime!

Crucible
April 7th, 2016, 09:45 AM
:yawn:

It does some good, believing in God, in actually believing His sovereignty as God.

Epoisses
April 7th, 2016, 09:47 AM
:yawn:

It does some good, believing in God, in actually believing His sovereignty as God.

God is not absolutely sovereign. If he was we would all be living in a perfect world right now with no sin, suffering or death.

TulipBee
April 7th, 2016, 09:51 AM
You've never known God, reprobate slime!
All of mankind don't know God and God is doing the rescue of those he chose so His promises will be kept. It's called grace ! The unregenerates use foul tongues and you make those noisy sounds. What does that tell us?

TulipBee
April 7th, 2016, 09:53 AM
God is not absolutely sovereign. If he was we would all be living in a perfect world right now with no sin, suffering or death.
This is a sure sign of an natural person whom God passed over and forgot

Epoisses
April 7th, 2016, 09:55 AM
All of mankind don't know God and God is doing the rescue of those he chose so His promises will be kept. It's called grace ! The unregenerates use foul tongues and you make those noisy sounds. What does that tell us?

Jesus has saved all people from all time and forgiven them of all their sins. All mankind stands perfect and complete 'in Christ'. The free gift of Salvation has been given to all people from all time aka the whole world. Do you believe how good the good news really is?

Epoisses
April 7th, 2016, 09:55 AM
This is a sure sign of an natural person whom God passed over and forgot

A sure sign that I reject your false prophet Calvin!

TulipBee
April 7th, 2016, 09:57 AM
Jesus has saved all people from all time and forgiven them of all their sins. All mankind stands perfect and complete 'in Christ'. The free gift of Salvation has been given to all people from all time aka the whole world. Do you believe how good the good news really is?
Universalism is man made. The more you hear God's words, the madder you get. You ought to go away and collect some spring and rethink your filthy mouth and soap it.

Crucible
April 7th, 2016, 09:58 AM
A sure sign that I reject your false prophet Calvin!

Oh, blow it out your other end, seriously :rolleyes:

He was a key Reformer in which you should be thankful for, along with the rest.

TulipBee
April 7th, 2016, 09:58 AM
A sure sign that I reject your false prophet Calvin!
The Bible existed long before Calvin and you

Epoisses
April 7th, 2016, 10:00 AM
Universalism is man made. The more you hear God's words, the madder you get. You ought to go away and collect some spring and rethink your filthy mouth and soap it.

The atonement is universal - read Roman 5, noob!

Epoisses
April 7th, 2016, 10:02 AM
Oh, blow it out your other end, seriously :rolleyes:

He was a key Reformer in which you should be thankful for, along with the rest.

He was hyper-grace heretic who rejected faith and repentance.

TulipBee
April 7th, 2016, 10:03 AM
He was hyper-grace heretic who rejected faith and repentance.
Grace doesn't apply to the rejects and that proves "all" doesn't mean every mankind like you want it to mean

TulipBee
April 7th, 2016, 10:04 AM
The atonement is universal - read Roman 5, noob!
Limited atonement rings true

Crucible
April 7th, 2016, 10:04 AM
He was hyper-grace heretic who rejected faith and repentance.

Nah

He simply took Christian doctrine into the land of solidity and sensibility, away from the fanatical minded who embrace theological mayhem.
You all don't like it because it reveals your intellectual follies and inconsistencies.

'Reform' means to 'improve', you see- you all make a mess of it.

Epoisses
April 7th, 2016, 10:07 AM
Grace doesn't apply to the rejects and that proves "all" doesn't mean every mankind like you want it to mean

OK unbeliever let me break it down for you. The atonement was universal but this only exists 'in Christ' and Christ is in heaven. The application of the atonement to the unbelieving heart of man is not universal. Surely you can see that what happened at the cross is different that what happens in an idividual's life?

Epoisses
April 7th, 2016, 10:07 AM
Limited atonement rings true

You're an unbeliever so it's foolishness to your carnal mind.

Epoisses
April 7th, 2016, 10:08 AM
Nah

He simply took Christian doctrine into the land of solidity and sensibility, away from the fanatical minded who embrace theological mayhem.
You all don't like it because it reveals your intellectual follies and inconsistencies.

'Reform' means to 'improve', you see- you all make a mess of it.

Refute me, intellectual! I bet you can't.

Crucible
April 7th, 2016, 10:10 AM
Refute me, intellectual! I bet you can't.

I automatically assume that someone so fanatically against Calvinism as yourself is just a plain idiot, so I tend not to waste my time :rolleyes:

Epoisses
April 7th, 2016, 10:11 AM
I automatically assume that someone so fanatically against Calvinism as yourself is just a plain idiot, so I tend not to waste my time :rolleyes:

I know you don't want none. Go read a book and pump your brain.

Crucible
April 7th, 2016, 10:46 AM
I know you don't want none. Go read a book and pump your brain.

I could and have many of times on this site given insight into Calvinism which, to be frank, you all don't know what to do with. You all run away from it and come back with the nonsense you are spewing now.

Just to put into reality why I stated what I stated in my last post :rotfl:

TulipBee
April 7th, 2016, 12:04 PM
You're an unbeliever so it's foolishness to your carnal mind.
Silly responses.
.
.
In other words, in this topic pate believes in unlimited free will with superpowers above God's powers. He tells God what to do. So do you. Either of you are superman. Superman is a comic character. Its make believe but your superman comic books could have some value. Why don't you stop reading them and sell it to feed the poor.

Nanja
April 7th, 2016, 03:51 PM
You preach a false gospel of hyper-grace where no faith or repentance is required.


Faith and Repentance are not a work of the flesh a carnal person does to get himself saved, that's not even possible:

Rom. 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


But Faith, or Repentance, Gr. metanoia, is "a change of mind, change in the inner man"; it's a Blessing from God given in New Birth to those who were Chosen In Union with Christ Eph. 1:4-5, the Head of the Body, His Church, before the world began 2 Tim. 1:9. So He gives them repentance and acknowledgment of the Truth.


Col. 1:18-19
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;


2 Tim. 2:25-26
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;


So those who were Chosen In Union with Christ before the foundation shall Believe the Truth because God had Chosen them to that Purpose:

2 Thes. 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:


~~~~~

Grosnick Marowbe
April 7th, 2016, 03:58 PM
You all run away from it :

Nah. Calvinism isn't that scary. Calvinists simply misinterpret Scripture and change the Character of the true God of the Bible. It's difficult to debate folks that follow "Another Gospel." They just don't interpret Scripture the same way as those who are non-Calvinists. Therefore, there can be no meeting of the minds. It's an exercise in futility.

Epoisses
April 7th, 2016, 11:08 PM
I could and have many of times on this site given insight into Calvinism which, to be frank, you all don't know what to do with. You all run away from it and come back with the nonsense you are spewing now.

Just to put into reality why I stated what I stated in my last post :rotfl:

Pick a point and let's go.

Epoisses
April 7th, 2016, 11:10 PM
Silly responses.
.
.
In other words, in this topic pate believes in unlimited free will with superpowers above God's powers. He tells God what to do. So do you. Either of you are superman. Superman is a comic character. Its make believe but your superman comic books could have some value. Why don't you stop reading them and sell it to feed the poor.

Absolute sovereignty is a myth and Calvinists are living proof. The omnipotent power of the Almighty can't bring them to faith and repentance. They made skip-wreck of their faith.

Epoisses
April 7th, 2016, 11:13 PM
Faith and Repentance are not a work of the flesh a carnal person does to get himself saved, that's not even possible:

I never said they were.

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name’s sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. Rev. 2:2-5

The words of Jesus trump the words of Paul. Jesus was very 'works' oriented.

beloved57
April 7th, 2016, 11:47 PM
The only one that has been elected is Jesus Christ. God chose him to be the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2.

God is no respecter of persons, Acts 10:34.

If you want to be saved you will have to come to Christ as a repentant sinner and call upon him to save you, Romans 10:13.
False statements not found in the scriptures!

Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk

beloved57
April 7th, 2016, 11:49 PM
Yes, I am saved by works, Christ work.
You deny Christ work and teach that millions for whom He worked in behalf of wind up lost! That's a denial of Christ.

Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk

TulipBee
April 8th, 2016, 05:33 AM
Absolute sovereignty is a myth and Calvinists are living proof. The omnipotent power of the Almighty can't bring them to faith and repentance. They made skip-wreck of their faith.
The Man-Abasing Doctrine of God's Absolute Sovereignty by A. W. Pink

This doctrine of the absolute Sovereignty of God is a great battering-ram against human pride, and in this it is in sharp contrast from the “doctrines of men.” The spirit of our age is essentially that of boasting and glorying in the flesh. The achievements of man, his development and progress, his greatness and self-sufficiency, are the shrine at which the world worships today. But the truth of God’s Sovereignty, with all its corollaries, removes every ground for human boasting and instils the spirit of humility in its stead. It declares that salvation is of the Lord-of the Lord in its origination, in its operation, and in its consummation. It insists that the Lord has to apply as well as supply, that He has to complete as well as begin His saving work in our souls, that He has not only to reclaim but to maintain and sustain us to the end. It teaches that salvation is by grace through faith, and that all our works (before conversion), good as well as evil, count for nothing toward salvation. It tells us we are “born, not of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:13). And all this is most humbling to the heart of man who wants to contribute something to the price of his redemption and do that which will afford ground for boasting and self-satisfaction.

But if this doctrine humbles us it results in praise to God. If, in the light of God’s Sovereignty, we have seen our own worthlessness and helplessness we shall indeed cry with the Psalmist “All my springs are in Thee” (Psa. 87:7). If by nature we were “children of wrath,” and by practice rebels against the Divine government and justly exposed to the “curse” of the Law, and if God was under no obligation to rescue us from the fiery indignation and yet, notwithstanding, He delivered up His well-beloved Son for us all; then how such grace and love will melt our hearts, how the apprehension of it will cause us to say in adoring gratitude “Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto Thy name give glory, for Thy mercy, and for Thy truth’s sake” (Psa. 115:1). How readily shall each of us acknowledge “By the grace of God I am what I am!

(from*Chapter 12*of*The Sovereignty of God, Arthur W. Pink)

Robert Pate
April 8th, 2016, 06:57 AM
The Man-Abasing Doctrine of God's Absolute Sovereignty by A. W. Pink

This doctrine of the absolute Sovereignty of God is a great battering-ram against human pride, and in this it is in sharp contrast from the “doctrines of men.” The spirit of our age is essentially that of boasting and glorying in the flesh. The achievements of man, his development and progress, his greatness and self-sufficiency, are the shrine at which the world worships today. But the truth of God’s Sovereignty, with all its corollaries, removes every ground for human boasting and instils the spirit of humility in its stead. It declares that salvation is of the Lord-of the Lord in its origination, in its operation, and in its consummation. It insists that the Lord has to apply as well as supply, that He has to complete as well as begin His saving work in our souls, that He has not only to reclaim but to maintain and sustain us to the end. It teaches that salvation is by grace through faith, and that all our works (before conversion), good as well as evil, count for nothing toward salvation. It tells us we are “born, not of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:13). And all this is most humbling to the heart of man who wants to contribute something to the price of his redemption and do that which will afford ground for boasting and self-satisfaction.

But if this doctrine humbles us it results in praise to God. If, in the light of God’s Sovereignty, we have seen our own worthlessness and helplessness we shall indeed cry with the Psalmist “All my springs are in Thee” (Psa. 87:7). If by nature we were “children of wrath,” and by practice rebels against the Divine government and justly exposed to the “curse” of the Law, and if God was under no obligation to rescue us from the fiery indignation and yet, notwithstanding, He delivered up His well-beloved Son for us all; then how such grace and love will melt our hearts, how the apprehension of it will cause us to say in adoring gratitude “Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto Thy name give glory, for Thy mercy, and for Thy truth’s sake” (Psa. 115:1). How readily shall each of us acknowledge “By the grace of God I am what I am!

(from*Chapter 12*of*The Sovereignty of God, Arthur W. Pink)


You and Pinky have overlooked one very important fact.

God's sovereignty does not overide his justice, mercy and righteousness. All that God does he does within the bounds of his just, holy, merciful, righteous nature.

Calvinism makes God unjust.

TulipBee
April 8th, 2016, 07:09 AM
You and Pinky have overlooked one very important fact.

God's sovereignty does not overide his justice, mercy and righteousness. All that God does he does within the bounds of his just, holy, merciful, righteous nature.

Calvinism makes God unjust.
Your post got noted agian and agian and added to the huge database of lies you have already committed. I'm surprised tol has enough storage space to store your lies. You have so many of them.

Robert Pate
April 8th, 2016, 07:31 AM
Your post got noted agian and agian and added to the huge database of lies you have already committed. I'm surprised tol has enough storage space to store your lies. You have so many of them.

You apparently think that God is a sinner like you.

Epoisses
April 8th, 2016, 08:10 AM
You and Pinky have overlooked one very important fact.

God's sovereignty does not overide his justice, mercy and righteousness. All that God does he does within the bounds of his just, holy, merciful, righteous nature.

Calvinism makes God unjust.

It's important to attack Calvinism at their weak points. Absolute sovereignty sounds very plausible to the untrained but there are many things that God either cannot or will not do. Doesn't mean he is not omnipotent he just lets sinners reap what they have sown.

TulipBee
April 8th, 2016, 08:11 AM
You apparently think that God is a sinner like you.
The butterfly effect of your early lies grew so big and so many, you got numbed and blinded to it. You need to reboot and review all the lies you have been caught red handed and reform yourself like read all of the Bible agian, not just parts of it

Robert Pate
April 8th, 2016, 09:12 AM
The butterfly effect of your early lies grew so big and so many, you got numbed and blinded to it. You need to reboot and review all the lies you have been caught red handed and reform yourself like read all of the Bible agian, not just parts of it

John Calvin also thought that God was a sinner like him.

This is why he committed so many atrocities against the people of Geneva.

TulipBee
April 8th, 2016, 09:58 AM
John Calvin also thought that God was a sinner like him.

This is why he committed so many atrocities against the people of Geneva.
Another lie

Robert Pate
April 8th, 2016, 10:46 AM
Another lie

Google "Atrocities of John Calvin" it gives dates, names, places where people were slaughtered by that demon.

TulipBee
April 8th, 2016, 09:10 PM
Google "Atrocities of John Calvin" it gives dates, names, places where people were slaughtered by that demon.
You're terrible

Epoisses
April 8th, 2016, 09:13 PM
John Calvin was a puppet of Satan. The reincarnation of Greek philosophers.

beloved57
April 9th, 2016, 01:22 AM
John Calvin also thought that God was a sinner like him.

This is why he committed so many atrocities against the people of Geneva.

Your focus is on the flesh of a man john calvin.

TulipBee
April 9th, 2016, 08:32 AM
John Calvin was a puppet of Satan. The reincarnation of Greek philosophers.
Reincarnation?
3 strikes! You are now out !
Game over

Robert Pate
April 9th, 2016, 10:09 AM
Reincarnation?
3 strikes! You are now out !
Game over

The internet is full of information about John Calvin.

You should read some it.

beloved57
April 9th, 2016, 11:48 AM
The internet is full of information about John Calvin.

You should read some it.

You are obsessed with the flesh of a man.

TulipBee
April 9th, 2016, 12:37 PM
The internet is full of information about John Calvin.

You should read some it.
I've read the reliable ones but never from your sources

zzub
April 9th, 2016, 03:27 PM
Hi Robert

Could do with your support back in Christianforums. Many of the old antagonists have gone. Please come back.

zzub
April 9th, 2016, 03:28 PM
Hey tulipbee.

Found you again. Still Trolling I see.

Epoisses
April 9th, 2016, 03:58 PM
Reincarnation?
3 strikes! You are now out !
Game over

I was referring to the message of John Calvin being a reincarnation of Greek philosophy not the actual man. You hapless dung beetle!

Robert Pate
April 9th, 2016, 04:12 PM
Hi Robert

Could do with your support back in Christianforums. Many of the old antagonists have gone. Please come back.

They kicked me off of that Forum. I don't think I can get back in.

Epoisses
April 9th, 2016, 04:14 PM
They kicked me off of that Forum. I don't think I can get back in.

I got kicked off three times. I'm down for the count.

Robert Pate
April 9th, 2016, 04:15 PM
You are obsessed with the flesh of a man.

No doubt about it, he was a man of the flesh.

Robert Pate
April 9th, 2016, 04:16 PM
I got kicked off three times. I'm down for the count.

The last time I was kicked off they said it was permanent.

TulipBee
April 9th, 2016, 05:04 PM
I was referring to the message of John Calvin being a reincarnation of Greek philosophy not the actual man. You hapless dung beetle!
Potty mouth

TulipBee
April 9th, 2016, 05:05 PM
Hey tulipbee.

Found you again. Still Trolling I see.
Don't troll

beloved57
April 9th, 2016, 07:21 PM
No doubt about it, he was a man of the flesh.
You are obsessed with a man of the flesh.

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Robert Pate
April 10th, 2016, 08:07 AM
You are obsessed with a man of the flesh.

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How can you follow the teachings of a man that was a murderous tyrant?

beloved57
April 10th, 2016, 09:00 AM
How can you follow the teachings of a man that was a murderous tyrant?
You are obsessed with a man.

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TulipBee
April 11th, 2016, 05:21 AM
How can you follow the teachings of a man that was a murderous tyrant?
You murder souls and sends them to hell through your false autosuggestions while unregenerates are going to hell anyway. You thought you had power

beloved57
April 11th, 2016, 07:19 AM
How can you follow the teachings of a man that was a murderous tyrant?
Your focus is on the man, the actions of the flesh and not the word of God!

Grosnick Marowbe
April 11th, 2016, 07:28 AM
Your focus is on the man, the actions of the flesh and not the word of God!

Calvin didn't teach the true word of God.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 11th, 2016, 07:30 AM
You murder souls and sends them to hell through your false autosuggestions while unregenerates are going to hell anyway. You thought you had power

If, as you believe, the Elect are chosen of God, how does anything Pate does interfere with the sovereignty of God?

Grosnick Marowbe
April 11th, 2016, 07:53 AM
Don't troll

The same could be said of you T bee.

Robert Pate
April 11th, 2016, 08:03 AM
The same could be said of you T bee.


"There is a way that seems right unto a man; but the end thereof are the ways of death" Proverbs 16:25.

When you have been blinded by Calvinism.

zzub
April 12th, 2016, 02:34 PM
Don't troll

My Phd started researching Calvinist with convictions, criminal conviction that is. This led to the thorny subject of Calvinist who are also homosexual, which led via SBC and PCA to you. Is this why you troll so many forums ?

I guess you will say God predestined you that way. Right ?

Crucible
April 12th, 2016, 04:07 PM
Don't troll

Don't worry about the new guy, who is only getting support from anyone because anti-Calvinists will take whatever they can get to compensate for their lack of theological integrity :chuckle:

Grosnick Marowbe
April 12th, 2016, 04:32 PM
Don't worry about the new guy, who is only getting support from anyone because anti-Calvinists will take whatever they can get to compensate for their lack of theological integrity :chuckle:

Need I remind you that you follow a false doctrine? It's a shame that your reformed slant blinds you to the truth of the Gospel.

TulipBee
April 12th, 2016, 09:38 PM
Don't worry about the new guy, who is only getting support from anyone because anti-Calvinists will take whatever they can get to compensate for their lack of theological integrity :chuckle:
I think he is a. Child

Sonnet
April 13th, 2016, 01:49 AM
You teach salvation by works by what a person does.

How can he? He acknowledges Romans 4 in the OP. Faith is not a work.

Sonnet
April 13th, 2016, 02:01 AM
That's a false gospel of works, an abomination to the Lord Is. 64:6; Eph. 2:8-9; Titus 3:5!

Please show, with reference to Romans 4:1-5 that faith is a work. Paul says it isn't.



Rom. 9:22-23
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


~~~~~

The context of Romans 9 is righteousness through faith rather than righteousness through works. And God chose to do it this way. His mercy was through such provision rather than, as the the Israelites thought, through works.

No one is predetermined to have no option but only to end up in hell. The canons of Dort recognises human responsibility, Why don't you?

Sonnet
April 13th, 2016, 02:03 AM
Relentlessly means there is a very high chance God already passed over him leaving him in his natural state he was born in.

If your understanding is correct, please explain man's responsibility?

Sonnet
April 13th, 2016, 02:07 AM
God is not absolutely sovereign. If he was we would all be living in a perfect world right now with no sin, suffering or death.

God is sovereign. How can you deny it? The existence of this imperfect world does not prove otherwise, just that God permitted it.

Sonnet
April 13th, 2016, 02:10 AM
Jesus has saved all people from all time and forgiven them of all their sins. All mankind stands perfect and complete 'in Christ'. The free gift of Salvation has been given to all people from all time aka the whole world. Do you believe how good the good news really is?

The gift has to be received.

John 8:23-24
But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”

Sonnet
April 13th, 2016, 02:12 AM
The atonement is universal - read Roman 5, noob!

Paul is speaking about believing Romans.

Sonnet
April 13th, 2016, 02:30 AM
Faith and Repentance are not a work of the flesh a carnal person does to get himself saved, that's not even possible:

Rom. 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Verse 8 is saying that nobody will please God through works - because the carnal mind is not subject to the law of God.



But Faith, or Repentance, Gr. metanoia, is "a change of mind, change in the inner man"; it's a Blessing from God given in New Birth to those who were Chosen In Union with Christ Eph. 1:4-5, the Head of the Body, His Church, before the world began 2 Tim. 1:9. So He gives them repentance and acknowledgment of the Truth.

That doesn't make sense. God chose to save through Christ and anyone may believe - that is what scripture says.



2 Tim. 2:25-26
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

Paul has already told Timothy that:

1 Tim 2:4-6
who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

beloved57
April 13th, 2016, 02:47 AM
How can he? He acknowledges Romans 4 in the OP. Faith is not a work.

He teaches that man is saved by what he does and thats works. He can quote Romans 4 as much as he likes, that doesnt mean a thing if you dont believe or understand it.

beloved57
April 13th, 2016, 02:50 AM
sonnet


Faith is not a work.

What scripture says that its not ?

Jesus identifies faith as a work of the law that ought to be done Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Sonnet
April 13th, 2016, 03:01 AM
sonnet



What scripture says that its not ?

Romans 4:1-5


Jesus identifies faith as a work of the law that ought to be done Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

In context, Jesus is discussing 'matters of the law', so, as many translations acknowledge, 'faithfulness' is a better translation.

Jesus isn't referring to faith in Him.

Paul explicitly distinguishes works of the law and faith in Romans 4 (and elsewhere).

You are conflating faith and work.

beloved57
April 13th, 2016, 03:03 AM
Romans 4:1-5



In context, Jesus is discussing 'matters of the law', so, as many translations acknowledge, 'faithfulness' is a better translation.

Jesus isn't referring to faith in Him.

Paul explicitly distinguishes works of the law and faith in Romans 4 (and elsewhere).

You are conflating faith and work.

Jesus identified faith as part of the law that ought to have been done Matt 23:23. Also you failed to provide a scripture that says specifically that faith is not a work !

beloved57
April 13th, 2016, 03:07 AM
sonnet


Jesus isn't referring to faith in Him.

Says who ? All the scriptures pointed to Him. In fact the law was given to be a schoolmaster to faith in Him Gal 3:24

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Sonnet
April 13th, 2016, 03:32 AM
Jesus identified faith as part of the law that ought to have been done Matt 23:23.

Jesus is talking about faithfulness. He isn't talking about saving faith. The context is the Pharisees and their hypocrisy. They will follow the letter of some laws but forget the 'more important matters'.


Also you failed to provide a scripture that says specifically that faith is not a work !

Romans 4:1-5
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Paul says that Abraham was not justified by works; so works are out when considering Abraham's righteousness. Paul does say that Abraham was justified by faith - so faith cannot be work because if it were then Paul's previous assertion that he was not justified by work would be contradicted.

Faith is something other than work. Paul says so.

Sonnet
April 13th, 2016, 03:35 AM
sonnet



Says who ? All the scriptures pointed to Him. In fact the law was given to be a schoolmaster to faith in Him Gal 3:24

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Paul also says in that chapter:

vv.10-11:
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”

beloved57
April 13th, 2016, 03:45 AM
sonnet


Jesus is talking about faithfulness.

They're the same. Faithfulness is living by faith !

You deny scripture. Jesus plainly states Faith as an act of the Law that ought to be DONE ! Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

You also have failed to provide any scripture that says Faith is not a work, so you have made a invalid and false statement saying faith is not a work !

beloved57
April 13th, 2016, 03:51 AM
Paul also says in that chapter:

vv.10-11:
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.”

Faith has always been directed towards Christ. The whole law and prophets pointed to Christ Lk 24:44

And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Moses had faith in Christ Heb 11:24-26

24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;
25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;
26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Moses looked forward to the coming of Christ to die for sin !

Sonnet
April 13th, 2016, 03:58 AM
You also have failed to provide any scripture that says Faith is not a work, so you have made a invalid and false statement saying faith is not a work !

I did by quoting Romans 4:1-5. Please read it and refute, if you will, my assertion:

Romans 4:1-5
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Paul says that Abraham was not justified by works; so works are out when considering Abraham's righteousness. Paul does say that Abraham was justified by faith - so faith cannot be work because if it were then Paul's previous assertion that he was not justified by work would be contradicted.

Faith is something other than work. Paul says so.

beloved57
April 13th, 2016, 04:03 AM
I did by quoting Romans 4:1-5. Please read it and refute, if you will, my assertion:

Romans 4:1-5
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Paul says that Abraham was not justified by works; so works are out when considering Abraham's righteousness. Paul does say that Abraham was justified by faith - so faith cannot be work because if it were then Paul's previous assertion that he was not justified by work would be contradicted.

Faith is something other than work. Paul says so.
I have read that passage many times, nothing there saying that Faith is not a work. How could it when Faith is a work of the law as Jesus points out Matt 23:23.

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Robert Pate
April 13th, 2016, 07:54 AM
I have read that passage many times, nothing there saying that Faith is not a work. How could it when Faith is a work of the law as Jesus points out Matt 23:23.

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Faith in the work and person of Jesus Christ justifies, Romans 5:1.

All other works do not justify. Trying to do works that justify are under the curse, Galatians 3:10.

beloved57
April 13th, 2016, 07:56 AM
Faith in the work and person of Jesus Christ justifies, Romans 5:1.

All other works do not justify. Trying to do works that justify are under the curse, Galatians 3:10.
You don't believe in Jesus Christ. The jesus you preach, many he died for end up in hell in their sins in unbelief!

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TulipBee
April 13th, 2016, 08:01 AM
If your understanding is correct, please explain man's responsibility?
It's irresponsible to boast

TulipBee
April 13th, 2016, 08:04 AM
The gift has to be received.

John 8:23-24
But he continued, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.”
Why would an unbeliever want to receive the gift and why would God bother with that if he knows they won't receive it? Men nor you can't tease God

Epoisses
April 13th, 2016, 08:07 AM
God is sovereign. How can you deny it? The existence of this imperfect world does not prove otherwise, just that God permitted it.

Yes he permitted it but he didn't ordain it or will it to happen.

Robert Pate
April 13th, 2016, 08:10 AM
You don't believe in Jesus Christ. The jesus you preach, many he died for end up in hell in their sins in unbelief!

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Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. You are in denial of the scriptures that teach that.

If you can't believe the scriptures why do you even read the Bible?

Jesus has reconciled the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. You don't believe that either.

You reject the scriptures and accept the words of a heretic, John Calvin.

Epoisses
April 13th, 2016, 08:10 AM
Jesus identified faith as part of the law that ought to have been done Matt 23:23. Also you failed to provide a scripture that says specifically that faith is not a work !

See, Calvinists have to make faith a work in order for their false theology to be accepted.

beloved57
April 13th, 2016, 08:28 AM
See, Calvinists have to make faith a work in order for their false theology to be accepted.
Jesus statement makes Faith a work of the law Matt 23:23

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Epoisses
April 13th, 2016, 08:46 AM
Jesus statement makes Faith a work of the law Matt 23:23

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And Paul contrasted faith and works in every discourse that's why you had no answer for Romans 4. Also faith is called a law in the scripture.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom. 3:27,28

beloved57
April 13th, 2016, 08:48 AM
And Paul contrasted faith and works in every discourse that's why you had no answer for Romans 4. Also faith is called a law in the scripture.

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom. 3:27,28
Paul never said that Faith is not a work of the law.

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Epoisses
April 13th, 2016, 08:49 AM
Paul never said that Faith is not a work of the law.

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Yea, he did right in the verses I quoted, lol

You're an unbeliever.

beloved57
April 13th, 2016, 08:49 AM
Yea, he did right in the verses I quoted, lol

You're an unbeliever.
No he didn't

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Sonnet
April 13th, 2016, 01:44 PM
It's irresponsible to boast

I'm not boasting and you didn't answer the question.

Sonnet
April 13th, 2016, 01:46 PM
Why would an unbeliever want to receive the gift and why would God bother with that if he knows they won't receive it? Men nor you can't tease God

Abraham did - and Moses - and many others.

Paul explicitly taught that belief was possible.

Sonnet
April 13th, 2016, 01:48 PM
Jesus statement makes Faith a work of the law Matt 23:23

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Already dealt with that and you didn't refute it.

Sonnet
April 13th, 2016, 01:54 PM
Paul never said that Faith is not a work of the law.

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Romans 4:1-5
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 9:30-32
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Romans 10:1
Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Galatians 3:10-13
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

beloved57
April 13th, 2016, 01:55 PM
Already dealt with that and you didn't refute it.
It has not changed. Jesus statement makes Faith a work of the law.

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beloved57
April 13th, 2016, 01:57 PM
Romans 4:1-5
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

Romans 9:30-32
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Romans 10:1
Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’ ”c (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”d that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Galatians 3:10-13
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” Clearly no one who relies on the law is justified before God, because “the righteous will live by faith.” The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.
Paul never said that Faith is not a work of the law, you quoted all that scripture for nothing.

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Sonnet
April 13th, 2016, 02:02 PM
Paul never said that Faith is not a work of the law, you quoted all that scripture for nothing.

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How was Abraham saved?

Sonnet
April 13th, 2016, 02:05 PM
Paul never said that Faith is not a work of the law, you quoted all that scripture for nothing.

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Galatians 3:12
The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”

Is the law based on faith or not?

beloved57
April 13th, 2016, 02:05 PM
How was Abraham saved?
I m not here to talk about that. My point is that Jesus Christ said Faith is a work of the law Matt 23:23 !

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beloved57
April 13th, 2016, 02:06 PM
Galatians 3:12
The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”

Is the law based on faith or not?
Faith is a work of the law that ought to be done Matt 23:23 !

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Sonnet
April 13th, 2016, 02:10 PM
I m not here to talk about that. My point is that Jesus Christ said Faith is a work of the law Matt 23:23 !

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It's a simple question. If you wont answer it then you aren't refuting the point I and others have been making.

Faithfulness is distinguished from saving faith. You aren't cross referencing other scriptures that clarify Matthew 23:23

Sonnet
April 13th, 2016, 02:12 PM
Faith is a work of the law that ought to be done Matt 23:23 !

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You didn't answer the question:

Galatians 3:12
The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”

Is the law based on faith or not?


The reason why the 'faithfulness' of Mat 23:23 is not saving faith has already been explained to you. You have not refuted it.

beloved57
April 13th, 2016, 02:32 PM
You didn't answer the question:

Galatians 3:12
The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, it says, “The person who does these things will live by them.”

Is the law based on faith or not?


The reason why the 'faithfulness' of Mat 23:23 is not saving faith has already been explained to you. You have not refuted it.
Does that verse say that Faith is not a work of the law like Jesus said it was?

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Sonnet
April 13th, 2016, 02:39 PM
Does that verse say that Faith is not a work of the law like Jesus said it was?

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It says the law is not based on faith. It is a clear distinction.

If faith is a work then Paul erred in Romans 4:1-5. If you can exegete those verses and prove that faith is a work then I would be very interested to see how.

Please, go ahead and do so.

beloved57
April 13th, 2016, 02:46 PM
It says the law is not based on faith. It is a clear distinction.

If faith is a work then Paul erred in Romans 4:1-5. If you can exegete those verses and prove that faith is a work then I would be very interested to see how.

Please, go ahead and do so.
Did I say that the law was based on Faith?

zzub
April 13th, 2016, 03:00 PM
You murder souls and sends them to hell through your false autosuggestions while unregenerates are going to hell anyway. You thought you had power

Well blow me down. What happened to God's predestination ?

Sonnet
April 13th, 2016, 03:01 PM
Did I say that the law was based on Faith?

No, but you are averring that faith is a work of the law.

Okay, let's assume that you are correct in your interpretation of Matthew 23:23 - that faith is a work. Please exegete Romans 4:1-5, using your definition of faith, and see if you can maintain your position.

I would be very interested to see your response.

zzub
April 13th, 2016, 03:02 PM
Why would an unbeliever want to receive the gift and why would God bother with that if he knows they won't receive it? Men nor you can't tease God


Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save ...
biblehub.com/luke/19-10.htm
For the Son of Man came to seek and save those who are lost."

zzub
April 13th, 2016, 03:09 PM
Don't worry about the new guy, who is only getting support from anyone because anti-Calvinists will take whatever they can get to compensate for their lack of theological integrity :chuckle:

'new guy' LOL Crux. TBum and I used to sit in the same pew when TB came to Church of God Cleveland, Tennessee to troll.

beloved57
April 13th, 2016, 03:27 PM
No, but you are averring that faith is a work of the law.

Okay, let's assume that you are correct in your interpretation of Matthew 23:23 - that faith is a work. Please exegete Romans 4:1-5, using your definition of faith, and see if you can maintain your position.

I would be very interested to see your response.
Ok then. Jesus said that Faith is a work of the law Matt 23:23

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Sonnet
April 13th, 2016, 03:32 PM
Ok then. Jesus said that Faith is a work of the law Matt 23:23

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Respectfully, my challenge to you was:

Let's assume that you are correct in your interpretation of Matthew 23:23 - that faith is a work. Please exegete Romans 4:1-5, using your definition of faith, and see if you can maintain your position.

beloved57
April 13th, 2016, 03:35 PM
Respectfully, my challenge to you was:

Let's assume that you are correct in your interpretation of Matthew 23:23 - that faith is a work. Please exegete Romans 4:1-5, using your definition of faith, and see if you can maintain your position.
That's your responsibility to exegete scripture you give.

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Sonnet
April 13th, 2016, 03:46 PM
That's your responsibility to exegete scripture you give.

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I have exegeted it.

So, since you are refusing my challenge we may justifiably infer that you cannot maintain your position. If scripture does not contradict itself then it should be easy for you to do as asked.

Robert Pate
April 13th, 2016, 03:47 PM
That's your responsibility to exegete scripture you give.

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Failed.

beloved57
April 13th, 2016, 03:50 PM
Failed.
Salvation by works man

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TulipBee
April 14th, 2016, 05:54 PM
I'm not boasting and you didn't answer the question.Responsibility and voluntary choice are not the same thing as free will. We affirm that man is indeed responsible for the choices he makes, yet we deny that the Bible teaches that man has a free will since it is no where taught in the pages of Scripture. The Bible teaches, rather, that God ordains all things that come to pass (Eph 1:11) and it also teaches that man is culpable for his choices (Ezek 18:20, Matt 12:37, John 9:41).

Robert Pate
April 14th, 2016, 06:34 PM
Responsibility and voluntary choice are not the same thing as free will. We affirm that man is indeed responsible for the choices he makes, yet we deny that the Bible teaches that man has a free will since it is no where taught in the pages of Scripture. The Bible teaches, rather, that God ordains all things that come to pass (Eph 1:11) and it also teaches that man is culpable for his choices (Ezek 18:20, Matt 12:37, John 9:41).


God has ordained me to tell you that your nuts.

Sonnet
April 14th, 2016, 10:20 PM
Responsibility and voluntary choice are not the same thing as free will. We affirm that man is indeed responsible for the choices he makes, yet we deny that the Bible teaches that man has a free will since it is no where taught in the pages of Scripture.

If faith through free choice is not a possibility, then why did Paul preach it? This is what Paul and the apostles preached (1 Cor. 15:3b-5):

"Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, he was buried, he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve."

v.11
"Whether, then, it was I or they (the apostles), this is what we preach and this what you believed."

Do you preach this? In Galatians 1 Paul warns about the preaching of different gospels. He even curses those who do so.

Why would Paul cite Deuteronomy 30:11-14 regarding faith?

"Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it."

Paul says that faith IS possible - that it is not out man's reach and up in heaven so that man has to ascend beyond his capability. You seem to be suggesting otherwise.



The Bible teaches, rather, that God ordains all things that come to pass (Eph 1:11) and it also teaches that man is culpable for his choices (Ezek 18:20, Matt 12:37, John 9:41).

Yes, God is sovereign and we are responsible.

I believe that the predestination of Ephesians 1 is with regard to God's provision of Christ and the spiritual blessings that come for those in Him.

Sonnet
April 14th, 2016, 10:45 PM
Righteousness is not possible through human effort - through observing the law. Righteousness through faith is possible.

Romans 10:1-4
Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

If it is the case that righteousness through faith is, like righteousness through works of the law, beyond man's capability, then Paul would be guilty of gross disingenuity in v.4

Crucible
April 14th, 2016, 11:06 PM
You can't choose what you believe. You have no control over what you believe.

The contrary is the supreme intellectual sin practiced by many Christians today.

Epoisses
April 14th, 2016, 11:08 PM
You can't choose what you believe. You have no control over what you believe.

The contrary is the supreme intellectual sin practiced by many Christians today.

Why does the bible command belief if it is impossible you ignorant fool!

Sonnet
April 14th, 2016, 11:49 PM
You can't choose what you believe. You have no control over what you believe.

The contrary is the supreme intellectual sin practiced by many Christians today.

Paul, as outlined above, said otherwise.

If you are right then you will be forced to preached a different gospel than the one he and the apostles preached.

TulipBee
April 15th, 2016, 06:12 AM
If faith through free choice is not a possibility, then why did Paul preach it? This is what Paul and the apostles preached (1 Cor. 15:3b-5):

"Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, he was buried, he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve."

v.11
"Whether, then, it was I or they (the apostles), this is what we preach and this what you believed."

Do you preach this? In Galatians 1 Paul warns about the preaching of different gospels. He even curses those who do so.

Why would Paul cite Deuteronomy 30:11-14 regarding faith?

"Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it."

Paul says that faith IS possible - that it is not out man's reach and up in heaven so that man has to ascend beyond his capability. You seem to be suggesting otherwise.



Yes, God is sovereign and we are responsible.

I believe that the predestination of Ephesians 1 is with regard to God's provision of Christ and the spiritual blessings that come for those in Him.

God knew the believers will believe. The believers must believe cause God knew or ordianed it. You're reading this with man made thoughts but that's all you can do anyway. You need to let the Bible say how it is, even though you don't believe it

TulipBee
April 15th, 2016, 06:23 AM
God has ordained me to tell you that your nuts.

Course he did. How else is he going to make you an unbeliever. This is evidence you didn't read the proof texts cause you don't understand. More proofs in your lies caught red handed and still available for others to see for themselves.

chrysostom
April 15th, 2016, 06:26 AM
Any religion or doctrine that needs writings other than the Bible is usually a cult.

why is this thread in the religion forum?

TulipBee
April 15th, 2016, 06:35 AM
Why does the bible command belief if it is impossible you ignorant fool!

God shouts a command is the same as God willed. Everything responds to every shout God makes. If God commands you to believe, you won't be able to refuse. You fight for the ability to refuse is proof of an unbeliever. Who knows God may command you to believe tommorow and that will change this post.
Who in the world would want to go against God begging for free will to refuse ????? The unregenerates of course.

TulipBee
April 15th, 2016, 06:41 AM
Why does the bible command belief if it is impossible you ignorant fool!
God makes it possible through Jesus. Did you know Jesus died for his people? Has anyone told you about Jesus?

Epoisses
April 15th, 2016, 06:55 AM
God shouts a command is the same as God willed. Everything responds to every shout God makes. If God commands you to believe, you won't be able to refuse. You fight for the ability to refuse is proof of an unbeliever. Who knows God may command you to believe tommorow and that will change this post.
Who in the world would want to go against God begging for free will to refuse ????? The unregenerates of course.

Faith is a gift and I admit that but it is also a command. To focus on one to the exclusion of the other leads to extremism. Calvinists take grace to such an extreme that they have God ordaining people to hell. How can you not see that that is wrong?

Robert Pate
April 15th, 2016, 07:24 AM
God makes it possible through Jesus. Did you know Jesus died for his people? Has anyone told you about Jesus?

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2 also 1 John 4:14.

You are Gospel illiterate. If you were a Christian you would know and believe that. To deny that Jesus is the savior of the whole world is to deny that Jesus is Lord.

Crucible
April 15th, 2016, 08:08 AM
Why does the bible command belief if it is impossible you ignorant fool!

:doh:
God's providence is where God speaks. Others simply hear and turn away.
When God commands, His commands are fulfilled.

You just don't get it, and apparently have vouched to never do so :Plain:

TulipBee
April 15th, 2016, 08:59 AM
Faith is a gift and I admit that but it is also a command. To focus on one to the exclusion of the other leads to extremism. Calvinists take grace to such an extreme that they have God ordaining people to hell. How can you not see that that is wrong?
I see it wrong when one focuses it to extreme free will as if God is waiting. God would be waiting forever if it were left up to man. Forever is not a long time, it's never

TulipBee
April 15th, 2016, 09:00 AM
Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, 1 John 2:2 also 1 John 4:14.

You are Gospel illiterate. If you were a Christian you would know and believe that. To deny that Jesus is the savior of the whole world is to deny that Jesus is Lord.
Of course he died for his people

Epoisses
April 15th, 2016, 11:38 AM
:doh:
God's providence is where God speaks. Others simply hear and turn away.
When God commands, His commands are fulfilled.

You just don't get it, and apparently have vouched to never do so :Plain:

His commands were not fulfilled with Satan and Adam....ooops, sounds like a hole in your theology.

Epoisses
April 15th, 2016, 11:38 AM
I see it wrong when one focuses it to extreme free will as if God is waiting. God would be waiting forever if it were left up to man. Forever is not a long time, it's never

I don't do that. I focus on grace and the free gift.

TulipBee
April 15th, 2016, 11:47 AM
I don't do that. I focus on grace and the free gift.
I think I see some Calvinists blends in your theologies. You're a Calvinist in one post and an arminian in another post. I think you're just dancing around for an argument.

Epoisses
April 15th, 2016, 11:54 AM
I think I see some Calvinists blends in your theologies. You're a Calvinist in one post and an arminian in another post. I think you're just dancing around for an argument.

I'm a three and a half point Arminian. I reject the Arminian provisional atonement hands down. What Christ accomplished at the cross was perfect, finished and complete for the whole world. I also believe in a limited form of eternal security. Instead of once saved always saved I believe in once mature always mature. Mature believers in Christ do not fall away but the babes in Christ can and often do fall away.

Robert Pate
April 15th, 2016, 01:09 PM
I'm a three and a half point Arminian. I reject the Arminian provisional atonement hands down. What Christ accomplished at the cross was perfect, finished and complete for the whole world. I also believe in a limited form of eternal security. Instead of once saved always saved I believe in once mature always mature. Mature believers in Christ do not fall away but the babes in Christ can and often do fall away.

If they do fall away it was because they never were sincere believers.

Persecution usually separates the real from the counterfeit.

zzub
April 15th, 2016, 02:58 PM
:doh:
God's providence is where God speaks. Others simply hear and turn away.
When God commands, His commands are fulfilled.
Hardly a command then if they can turn away. Are you saying God predestined them to turn away ?



You just don't get it, and apparently have vouched to never do so :Plain:
Another contradiction. Is this freely 'vouched' or did God predestine this too. I wish you would make your mind up.

zzub
April 15th, 2016, 03:01 PM
God knew the believers will believe. The believers must believe cause God knew or ordianed it. You're reading this with man made thoughts but that's all you can do anyway. You need to let the Bible say how it is, even though you don't believe it
As in Double Predestination Hyper Calvinism - of which most Calvinists sects deny.

Crucible
April 15th, 2016, 03:37 PM
Hardly a command then if they can turn away. Are you saying God predestined them to turn away ?


Another contradiction. Is this freely 'vouched' or did God predestine this too. I wish you would make your mind up.

Neither one was a contradiction, so how do you figure 'another' :rolleyes:

That was not the point at all. You completely just went over the whole thing with drivel.

Until you all pick up a capacity to follow along with what is stated, I don't really feel a point in speaking with you all- the only thing being done is you and others simply trying to 'shoot nukes' at every individual thing stated instead of acknowledging the broad point at hand.

TulipBee
April 15th, 2016, 03:40 PM
I'm a three and a half point Arminian. I reject the Arminian provisional atonement hands down. What Christ accomplished at the cross was perfect, finished and complete for the whole world. I also believe in a limited form of eternal security. Instead of once saved always saved I believe in once mature always mature. Mature believers in Christ do not fall away but the babes in Christ can and often do fall away.
What good is perfect going to help those Jesus knew that were not the sheep? What are the goats going to do with that perfection when they don't even care about it nor ever will?

TulipBee
April 15th, 2016, 03:42 PM
If they do fall away it was because they never were sincere believers.

Persecution usually separates the real from the counterfeit.
They couldn't believe on thier own nor care about it. You don't care about it either

Epoisses
April 15th, 2016, 04:47 PM
What good is perfect going to help those Jesus knew that were not the sheep? What are the goats going to do with that perfection when they don't even care about it nor ever will?

Jesus leads the goats to repentance even though they fight him the whole way. Eventually he just lets them go.

Nanja
April 15th, 2016, 05:22 PM
Jesus leads the goats to repentance even though they fight him the whole way. Eventually he just lets them go.


No way. He ordained them to condemnation Jude 1:4; Rom. 9:22; Prov. 16:4!

~~~~~

Crucible
April 15th, 2016, 06:29 PM
No way. He ordained them to condemnation Jude 1:4; Rom. 9:22; Prov. 16:4!

~~~~~

They don't quite understand what 'God giving them over to their sin' means. They think it's something different than what it flat out says :rolleyes:

TulipBee
April 15th, 2016, 07:19 PM
Jesus leads the goats to repentance even though they fight him the whole way. Eventually he just lets them go.
Jesus knew they would fight the whole entire way. He never caught them to let go. You're making things up

Epoisses
April 15th, 2016, 09:26 PM
No way. He ordained them to condemnation Jude 1:4; Rom. 9:22; Prov. 16:4!

~~~~~

He ordained unbelievers like you to condemnation. You don't even believe that Jesus is the savior of the world.

Epoisses
April 15th, 2016, 09:27 PM
They don't quite understand what 'God giving them over to their sin' means. They think it's something different than what it flat out says :rolleyes:

You don't understand that you've been duped by the Simon Magus of the Reformation.

Epoisses
April 15th, 2016, 09:29 PM
Jesus knew they would fight the whole entire way. He never caught them to let go. You're making things up

You're one of them so you are lost in a fog of deceit.

Sonnet
April 15th, 2016, 11:21 PM
No way. He ordained them to condemnation Jude 1:4; Rom. 9:22; Prov. 16:4!

~~~~~

Jude 4
For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Such men would have been written about in the Old Testament and Jude goes on to say as much. What is your point?

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD works out everything to its proper end-- even the wicked for a day of disaster.

The Lord has determined a day of disaster for the wicked. You are not suggesting that God is responsible for the wickedness of these individuals are you?

What is your point regarding Romans 9:22?

Nanja
April 16th, 2016, 05:05 AM
What is your point regarding Romans 9:22?


Divine Reprobation. No hope of salvation.

They are outside of the Election of Grace 2 Tim. 1:9, God's Vessels of Mercy.


Rom. 9:22-23
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known,
endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy,
which he had afore prepared unto glory


~~~~~

Sonnet
April 16th, 2016, 05:25 AM
Divine Reprobation. No hope of salvation.

They are outside of the Election of Grace 2 Tim. 1:9, God's Vessels of Mercy.


Rom. 9:22-23
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known,
endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy,
which he had afore prepared unto glory


~~~~~

Your interpretation of Romans 9:22 does not fit with Paul's summation (vv.30-32):

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Paul is not telling any one individual that they were not chosen and, therefore, beyond salvation. He is telling his brethren by birth (Israelites) that they would not attain righteousness through the law - through human desire and effort. On the contrary, God chose to do it through the promise:

v.8
In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

The promise is to Christ. The Jews were offended by this notion - that salvation was through Christ crucified. They thought they were righteous of themselves.

Sonnet
April 16th, 2016, 05:27 AM
Divine Reprobation. No hope of salvation.


Christ died for every single human as scripture repeated states. That is the good news.

Your statement is not good news.

Nanja
April 16th, 2016, 05:50 AM
Christ died for every single human as scripture repeated states. That is the good news.

Your statement is not good news.


The Truth of God's Word is hidden from you 2 Cor. 4:3-4; Eph. 4:18.

~~~~~

TulipBee
April 16th, 2016, 06:09 AM
You're one of them so you are lost in a fog of deceit.
Calvinists would rather God be the judge. All things happens according to his wills not yours at all. What you did to earn salvation had no effect at all

TulipBee
April 16th, 2016, 06:11 AM
Christ died for every single human as scripture repeated states. That is the good news.

Your statement is not good news.
Every single man going to heaven could be good news. That's what you want to hear but some isn't included in "all"

Grosnick Marowbe
April 16th, 2016, 06:27 AM
The Truth of God's Word is hidden from you 2 Cor. 4:3-4; Eph. 4:18.

~~~~~

Hey, Nanja, how's your mentor B57? You two are quite the duo of "Ultra, hyper-Calvinist fanatics." Even your fellow Calvinists ignore both of you. Isn't that interesting? I thought you'd enjoy that.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 16th, 2016, 06:29 AM
B57 and Nanja believe that God creates ALL of the sin in the world!

Grosnick Marowbe
April 16th, 2016, 06:30 AM
They both believe that humanity stinks. Actually, what they're smelling is their own "Radical belief system."

Sonnet
April 16th, 2016, 06:33 AM
The Truth of God's Word is hidden from you 2 Cor. 4:3-4; Eph. 4:18.

~~~~~

Strong words. Were the secrets of the kingdom of God hidden from Judas?

Grosnick Marowbe
April 16th, 2016, 06:34 AM
We live in what Paul calls, "The Dispensation of Grace." Anyone who hears the Gospel of Grace and places ALL their faith in Christ are saved.

Sonnet
April 16th, 2016, 06:35 AM
Every single man going to heaven could be good news. That's what you want to hear but some isn't included in "all"

Not one scripture speaks of Christ dying for less than all - but plenty to the contrary.

Sonnet
April 16th, 2016, 06:36 AM
They both believe that humanity stinks. Actually, what they're smelling is their own "Radical belief system."

Humanity is depraved.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 16th, 2016, 06:36 AM
Any retort Nanja? Not that it will make any difference?

Sonnet
April 16th, 2016, 06:37 AM
We live in what Paul calls, "The Dispensation of Grace." Anyone who hears the Gospel of Grace and places ALL their faith in Christ are saved.

I agree.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 16th, 2016, 06:38 AM
Humanity is depraved.

However, God loved His creation so much that He was willing to send His Son to pay the price for their sins. So, to God we have value. Do you doubt that? Are you a Calvinist?

Sonnet
April 16th, 2016, 06:42 AM
However, God loved His creation so much that He was willing to send His Son to pay the price of their sins. So, to God we have value. Do you doubt that? Are you a Calvinist?

I agree with your post. I'm not a Calvinist. I don't think anyone has all the answers though.

Robert Pate
April 16th, 2016, 06:50 AM
I agree with your post. I'm not a Calvinist. I don't think anyone has all the answers though.

We have enough information to know how to believe and have faith.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 16th, 2016, 06:52 AM
I agree with your post. I'm not a Calvinist. I don't think anyone has all the answers, though.

True. However, some more than others. I'm happy to hear you're not a Calvinist.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 16th, 2016, 06:55 AM
Calvinists have been brainwashed by their man-made belief system. They have changed the character and intent of the God of the Bible in order to make Him fit their theology.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 16th, 2016, 06:56 AM
We have enough information to know how to believe and have faith.

Yep!

Nanja
April 16th, 2016, 06:57 AM
Strong words. Were the secrets of the kingdom of God hidden from Judas?


Judas was a devil Mat. 25:41; Lost.


The Gospel is hid to the Lost:

2 Cor. 4:3-4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,
lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


But the Truth of the Gospel is revealed to those who were Chosen to Salvation:

2 Thes. 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

~~~~~

Grosnick Marowbe
April 16th, 2016, 06:59 AM
There was a time in my life where I got involved with some Presbyterian reformed types and more or less accepted their false doctrine. That was in the mid-70s. Thank God He brought me out of that mess.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 16th, 2016, 07:01 AM
John MacArthur is a good Preacher, however, he has been brainwashed by false doctrine. It's a shame.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 16th, 2016, 07:03 AM
MacArthur has dignity, intelligence, charisma, knowledge, etc. However, along with all those positive attributes, he's still wrong!

Grosnick Marowbe
April 16th, 2016, 07:07 AM
Judas was a devil Mat. 25:41; Lost.


The Gospel is hid to the Lost:

2 Cor. 4:3-4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,
lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


But the Truth of the Gospel is revealed to those who were Chosen to Salvation:

2 Thes. 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

~~~~~

The Grace Gospel is open to ALL of humanity. However, not ALL will hear the Grace Gospel and place their faith in Christ alone. We all have free will choice. That's something you and B57 (two of TOLs heretics) don't believe in.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 16th, 2016, 07:09 AM
Christ shed His blood for the sins of ALL of humanity. However, only those who place ALL of their faith in Christ as their Savior will reap the benefit of eternal life.

Sonnet
April 16th, 2016, 07:11 AM
Judas was a devil Mat. 25:41; Lost.


The Gospel is hid to the Lost:

2 Cor. 4:3-4
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,
lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.


But the Truth of the Gospel is revealed to those who were Chosen to Salvation:

2 Thes. 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

~~~~~

Jesus equated Judas with those who had been given knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God.

Matthew 13:10-11
The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

Mark 4:10-11
When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables

TulipBee
April 16th, 2016, 08:55 AM
Not one scripture speaks of Christ dying for less than all - but plenty to the contrary.
Bible said not everyone will go to heaven

Nanja
April 16th, 2016, 09:13 AM
Jesus equated Judas with those who had been given knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God.

Matthew 13:10-11
The disciples came to him and asked, “Why do you speak to the people in parables?” He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

Mark 4:10-11
When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. He told them, “The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables



If Judas was indeed in the company of those disciples that heard Jesus speak of the secrets of the Kingdom, it was only possible for him to hear audibly, with the physical ear, but not spiritually because he was not born of God John 8:43, 47 as the other eleven were.

The same applies today. The Truths of the Gospel are preached by God's Children, but the devil's children are not given the ability to "hear" Luke 8:10: Prov. 20:12.

~~~~~

Sonnet
April 16th, 2016, 12:21 PM
Bible said not everyone will go to heaven

I said there were no scriptures that say that Christ died for less than all - so why is it a major pillar of Calvinism?

Sonnet
April 16th, 2016, 12:29 PM
If Judas was indeed in the company of those disciples that heard Jesus speak of the secrets of the Kingdom, it was only possible for him to hear audibly, with the physical ear, but not spiritually because he was not born of God John 8:43, 47 as the other eleven were.

The same applies today. The Truths of the Gospel are preached by God's Children, but the devil's children are not given the ability to "hear" Luke 8:10: Prov. 20:12.

~~~~~

Actually, Jesus pinpoints those whom he considers as ever hearing but never understanding - those other than the disciples. Citing Luke 8:10 to make your point is curious considering it's the same as Mat 13:11.

Jesus could have excluded Judas from those whom he considered to have the secret knowledge. Dordt got it wrong regarding this scripture.

Sonnet
April 16th, 2016, 01:03 PM
We have enough information to know how to believe and have faith.

I don't think faith is easy. There are valid reasons to be sceptical.

and, yes, I am aware of Romans 1:20.

Sonnet
April 16th, 2016, 01:06 PM
True. However, some more than others. I'm happy to hear you're not a Calvinist.

I can understand why Calvinism exists, but the focus on God's sovereignty leaves men without responsible. God is sovereign and we are responsible.

beloved57
April 16th, 2016, 01:34 PM
If Judas was indeed in the company of those disciples that heard Jesus speak of the secrets of the Kingdom, it was only possible for him to hear audibly, with the physical ear, but not spiritually because he was not born of God John 8:43, 47 as the other eleven were.

The same applies today. The Truths of the Gospel are preached by God's Children, but the devil's children are not given the ability to "hear" Luke 8:10: Prov. 20:12.

~~~~~

The Gospel, the revelation of the righteousness of God is declared to the born again seed Ps 22:30-31!

beloved57
April 16th, 2016, 01:38 PM
We have enough information to know how to believe and have faith.

You don't believe the Gospel, you teach salvation by works, that is not the Gospel.

TulipBee
April 16th, 2016, 02:25 PM
I said there were no scriptures that say that Christ died for less than all - so why is it a major pillar of Calvinism?
What good is dying for those that will never believe. You ARE saying Jesus doesn't know who will believe. That's really really a bad idea to tell God he doesn't know what he is doing. Really bad!

TulipBee
April 16th, 2016, 02:27 PM
I can understand why Calvinism exists, but the focus on God's sovereignty leaves men without responsible. God is sovereign and we are responsible.
Calvinism always say man is responsible.

Epoisses
April 16th, 2016, 02:27 PM
What good is dying for those that will never believe. You ARE saying Jesus doesn't know who will believe. That's really really a bad idea to tell God he doesn't know what he is doing. Really bad!

If Jesus did not die and atone for all sin he could not be the savior of anyone.

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 1John 2:2

There is no doubt what happened at the cross with this verse except for the unbelieving Clavinists!!

Grosnick Marowbe
April 16th, 2016, 02:29 PM
What good is dying for those that will never believe. You ARE saying Jesus doesn't know who will believe. That's really really a bad idea to tell God he doesn't know what he is doing. Really bad!

Your 'thinking processes' are a little off. Have you no logic or reason to fall back on? How about common sense? You don't seem to have any?

Grosnick Marowbe
April 16th, 2016, 02:30 PM
Calvinism always say man is responsible.

Calvinism is a "False Doctrine."

Grosnick Marowbe
April 16th, 2016, 02:32 PM
You don't believe the Gospel, you teach salvation by works, that is not the Gospel.

Was John Calvin a Parrot?

Grosnick Marowbe
April 16th, 2016, 02:34 PM
I feel sorry for posters who have no common sense. In the "Kingdom of no common sense, TB is king!"

Grosnick Marowbe
April 16th, 2016, 02:35 PM
Nanja is Queen and B57 is the Prince.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 16th, 2016, 02:36 PM
Anybody disagree with my assessments?

Nanja
April 16th, 2016, 02:42 PM
The Gospel, the revelation of the righteousness of God is declared to the born again seed Ps 22:30-31!



Yes exactly, the Gospel is revealed to Faith, a Fruit of the Spirit
given in New Birth, to all of the Chosen "generation" 1 Pet. 2:9; Eph. 1:4.

~~~~~

beloved57
April 16th, 2016, 02:51 PM
Yes exactly, the Gospel is revealed to Faith, a Fruit of the Spirit
given in New Birth, to all of the Chosen "generation" 1 Pet. 2:9; Eph. 1:4.

~~~~~
Notice how Peter writes to the born again seed, that the Gospel was preached to them 1 Peter 1:23-25.

Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk

Sonnet
April 16th, 2016, 03:12 PM
What good is dying for those that will never believe. You ARE saying Jesus doesn't know who will believe. That's really really a bad idea to tell God he doesn't know what he is doing. Really bad!

Because it is proof that all men without exception were provided for. God does not show favouritism - he is no respecter of persons. Whether the world's population was 50 billion or just one person, the atonement would have been the same.

Of course God knows who will believe.

Nanja
April 16th, 2016, 03:38 PM
Notice how Peter writes to the born again seed, that the Gospel was preached to them 1 Peter 1:23-25.

Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk


It was only to them Peter preached to: The ones Born of Incorruptible Seed, the Generation of the very Logos of God, which were Chosen in Him, who Himself was the Chosen of God 1 Pet. 2:4!

~~~~~

beloved57
April 16th, 2016, 04:20 PM
It was only to them Peter preached to: The ones Born of Incorruptible Seed, the Generation of the very Logos of God, which were Chosen in Him, who Himself was the Chosen of God 1 Pet. 2:4!

~~~~~
Yes, 1 Peter 1:23-25 fulfills Ps 22:30-31

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Grosnick Marowbe
April 16th, 2016, 04:32 PM
B57 and Nanja have their own little study going on. There's no one else on this board that agree with either one of them. It must be lonely, not to mention unproductive.

Grosnick Marowbe
April 16th, 2016, 04:34 PM
Because it is proof that all men without exception were provided for. God does not show favouritism - he is no respecter of persons. Whether the world's population was 50 billion or just one person, the atonement would have been the same.

Of course God knows who will believe.

Good post.

Nanja
April 16th, 2016, 04:49 PM
Yes, 1 Peter 1:23-25 fulfills Ps 22:30-31

Sent from my 5054N using Tapatalk


Surely does!

~~~~~

TulipBee
April 16th, 2016, 09:00 PM
Because it is proof that all men without exception were provided for. God does not show favouritism - he is no respecter of persons. Whether the world's population was 50 billion or just one person, the atonement would have been the same.

Of course God knows who will believe.
Provided for the sheep only cause the unregenerate person is a slave of sin: "For when you were slaves of sin you were free in regard to righteousness" (Rom. 6:20). That means that doing good is not a concern or need of the unbeliever-and naturally so for a person with a sinful nature. The unregenerate is inherently against God: "by abolishing in His flesh the enmity...thus establishing peace" (Eph. 2:15). Enmity is hatred, bitterness, and malice toward an enemy. That was our relationship to God prior to salvation; there was enmity between us.

TulipBee
April 16th, 2016, 09:03 PM
If Jesus did not die and atone for all sin he could not be the savior of anyone.

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. 1John 2:2

There is no doubt what happened at the cross with this verse except for the unbelieving Clavinists!!
Died for the chosen only cause the Bible reveals the true nature of man. It is evil (Mark 7:21-23), sick (Jer. 17:9), a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20), at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15), and, of course, naturally belongs in hell (Eph. 2:3). It then follows that out of his utterly sinful condition, only sinful desires and effects will follow. The question must then be asked, "How can a sinful person ever desire God?"

Epoisses
April 16th, 2016, 09:38 PM
Died for the chosen only cause the Bible reveals the true nature of man. It is evil (Mark 7:21-23), sick (Jer. 17:9), a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20), at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15), and, of course, naturally belongs in hell (Eph. 2:3). It then follows that out of his utterly sinful condition, only sinful desires and effects will follow. The question must then be asked, "How can a sinful person ever desire God?"

You're an unbeliever and reject every verse that speaks to a universal atonement.

TulipBee
April 16th, 2016, 09:41 PM
You're an unbeliever and reject every verse that speaks to a universal atonement.
We'll leave that up to God. Let's return the Bible

Epoisses
April 16th, 2016, 09:43 PM
We'll leave that up to God. Let's return the Bible

You don't believe the bible. Jesus came into the world to save sinners not the elect.

TulipBee
April 16th, 2016, 09:47 PM
You don't believe the bible. Jesus came into the world to save sinners not the elect.
Let the elects be the elected

Sonnet
April 17th, 2016, 12:25 AM
It was only to them Peter preached to: The ones Born of Incorruptible Seed, the Generation of the very Logos of God, which were Chosen in Him, who Himself was the Chosen of God 1 Pet. 2:4!

~~~~~

And Paul preached, primarily, to Gentiles where Christ was not know. What is your point?

Sonnet
April 17th, 2016, 12:32 AM
Provided for the sheep only cause the unregenerate person is a slave of sin: "For when you were slaves of sin you were free in regard to righteousness" (Rom. 6:20). That means that doing good is not a concern or need of the unbeliever-and naturally so for a person with a sinful nature. The unregenerate is inherently against God: "by abolishing in His flesh the enmity...thus establishing peace" (Eph. 2:15). Enmity is hatred, bitterness, and malice toward an enemy. That was our relationship to God prior to salvation; there was enmity between us.

Christ dying for the sheep (in John 10) is part of a parable. Jesus is merely contrasting the actions of a good shepherd with those of bad shepherds (the Pharisees). If you read the end of the previous chapter (John 9) you will notice that the (once) blind man has been thrown out the temple. That, Jesus is saying, is bad shepherdry.

I'm not following the rest of your post. Eph 2 is about Gentiles and Jews.

TulipBee
April 17th, 2016, 05:46 AM
Christ dying for the sheep (in John 10) is part of a parable. Jesus is merely contrasting the actions of a good shepherd with those of bad shepherds (the Pharisees). If you read the end of the previous chapter (John 9) you will notice that the (once) blind man has been thrown out the temple. That, Jesus is saying, is bad shepherdry.

I'm not following the rest of your post. Eph 2 is about Gentiles and Jews.
John 10:15, "I lay down my life for the sheep." The sheep of Christ are those whom the Father draws to the Son. "You do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep." Notice: being a sheep enables you to become a believer, not vice versa. So the sheep for whom Christ dies are the ones chosen by the Father to give to the Son.

TulipBee
April 17th, 2016, 05:52 AM
You're an unbeliever and reject every verse that speaks to a universal atonement.
If you say that he died for every human being in the same way, then you have to define the nature of the atonement very differently than you would if you believed that Christ only died for those who actually believe. In the first case you would believe that the death of Christ did not actually save anybody; it only made all men savable. It did not actually remove God's punitive wrath from anyone, but instead created a place where people could come and find mercy -- IF they could accomplish their own new birth and bring themselves to faith without the irresistible grace of God.

For if Christ died for all men in the same way then he did not purchase regenerating grace for those who are saved. They must regenerate themselves and bring themselves to faith. Then and only then do they become partakers of the benefits of the cross.

In other words if you believe that Christ died for all men in the same way, then the benefits of the cross cannot include the mercy by which we are brought to faith, because then all men would be brought to faith, but they aren't. But if the mercy by which we are brought to faith (irresistible grace) is not part of what Christ purchased on the cross, then we are left to save ourselves from the bondage of sin, the hardness of heart, the blindness of corruption, and the wrath of God.

Sonnet
April 17th, 2016, 06:15 AM
John 10:15, "I lay down my life for the sheep." The sheep of Christ are those whom the Father draws to the Son. "You do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep." Notice: being a sheep enables you to become a believer, not vice versa. So the sheep for whom Christ dies are the ones chosen by the Father to give to the Son.

And yet Christ goes on to say this to them (the Jewish opponents)

John 10:37-38
Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.

Jesus, despite their anger and hatred, still invites them to believe. You can't do so with integrity if it is the case that they CANNOT do so.

Since they are not his sheep then they are the sheep of another shepherd. Jesus says nothing to suggest that they cannot be his sheep. He does say this:

I am the gate - whoever enters through me will be saved. He will go in and find pasture.

TulipBee
April 17th, 2016, 07:35 AM
It is not the Calvinist who limits the atonement. It is the Arminian, because he denies that the atoning death of Christ accomplishes what we most desperately need -- namely, salvation from the condition of deadness and hardness and blindness under the wrath of God. The Arminian limits the nature and value and effectiveness of the atonement so that he can say that it was accomplished even for those who die in unbelief and are condemned. In order to say that Christ died for all men in the same way, the Arminian must limit the atonement to a powerless opportunity for men to save themselves from their terrible plight of depravity.

Sonnet
April 17th, 2016, 08:25 AM
It is not the Calvinist who limits the atonement. It is the Arminian, because he denies that the atoning death of Christ accomplishes what we most desperately need -- namely, salvation from the condition of deadness and hardness and blindness under the wrath of God. The Arminian limits the nature and value and effectiveness of the atonement so that he can say that it was accomplished even for those who die in unbelief and are condemned. In order to say that Christ died for all men in the same way, the Arminian must limit the atonement to a powerless opportunity for men to save themselves from their terrible plight of depravity.

Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert - so must the Son of man be lifted up that everyone who believes may have eternal life.

If the bitten Israelites did not look to the serpent they would die...the serpent was lifted up even for those that may not have decided not to look.

John writes that Jesus' lifting up is just the same.

All are provided for. Not all will look (believe).

TulipBee
April 17th, 2016, 10:07 AM
Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the desert - so must the Son of man be lifted up that everyone who believes may have eternal life.

If the bitten Israelites did not look to the serpent they would die...the serpent was lifted up even for those that may not have decided not to look.

John writes that Jesus' lifting up is just the same.

All are provided for. Not all will look (believe).
You claim God isn't effective nor have the power.

"Christ's sacrifice has purchased and provided for the effectual calling of the elect, with all the graces which insure their faith, repentance, justification, perseverance, and glorification. Now, since the sacrifice actually results in all these different consequences, they are all included in God's design. This view satisfies all those texts quoted against us." -R.L. Dabney

Sonnet
April 17th, 2016, 10:21 AM
You claim God isn't effective nor have the power.

"Christ's sacrifice has purchased and provided for the effectual calling of the elect, with all the graces which insure their faith, repentance, justification, perseverance, and glorification. Now, since the sacrifice actually results in all these different consequences, they are all included in God's design. This view satisfies all those texts quoted against us." -R.L. Dabney

That's Dabney's view and doesn't actually deal with the specifics of what I posted.