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Pamella
April 2nd, 2016, 08:07 PM
Ok. I'M actually going to stick my head in here. Gulp.
It seems like this is THE issue of arguments between Catholics and protestants.
Well first, on a good note, I was in a Catholic church a couple of times, the same one, and they prayed only in Jesus name. It is my understanding that now that catholics are allowed to have their own bible to read it is evolving. They used to be forbidden to read their own bible's and had to go on only what the priests said.
Back to praying to deceased saints.
I noticed that the one scripture taken as that one can do this as mentioned by a few catholics Ive seen is Revelation 5:8 'When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.' It was admitted by a Catholic reference these are the prayers of the saints on earth. But he said these elders were involved in praying, too. Ok. Now here is what doesn't make sense to me with that. We don't even know who the 24 elders all are. 12 are apostles, but we only know for sure who eleven are. We can make a good guess that the other 12 are probably Moses and Elijah since they appeared in glory with Jesus before his crucifixion on the mountain. Probably some who are not even in the bible.
So if you are a catholic, then please explain this a little better because it really doesn't make sense.

I really don't know why there has to such contention about catholics vs. Protestants, tho. I guess if you believe and except Jesus as your Lord and savior then you are saved. So what IS the big deal? Ultimately, God knows the heart. So if there are some quirks, oh well. Really tho, maybe you could try praying to God in Jesus name for a while, since that is scriptural and see what happens. Unless that is too scary which may mean there are hidden things going on. I am writing this admitting that I am a work in progress also as I continue to read my bible, and am not 'judging' anyone.
Do you who pray to saints in heaven, do you sometimes pray to God the Father in Jesus name? Or even to Jesus himself? They are both in there.

Pamella
April 2nd, 2016, 08:15 PM
Can this pleased get moved to exclusive christian theology? I wanted to post it in there.

Greek2Me
April 3rd, 2016, 07:28 PM
From my Wesleyan perspective, this is not "THE" issue, but is certainly one of significance. Primarily because, on the weight of minimal scripture (and subjective interpretation of those few verses), a considerable doctrine has been built up, taking much focus off of Christ and granting authority, power and perceived holiness to mere mortals that (in Protestant thinking, at least) belongs only to God.

One of the most beautiful aspects of original Christianity was the belief that EVERYONE, poor or wealthy, noble or slave, man or woman now had direct access to the ear of God through the Savior. The Temple, the priesthood, the ceremonial sacrifices were no longer necessary, as the Holy Spirit could minister, guide or correct directly as needed. So, there is some justifiable concern, don't you think, when we start building up layers of mediation that one must pass through (Mary, a priest, a saint, etc.) to access God? Seems as though Jesus went to a lot of trouble to restore a vital, living and personal relationship with the Father that is quickly threatened when Christians, who may already sense their unworthiness to approach a holy God, begin to feel that, "maybe it would be best to stand off a ways and have someone who has "attained" speak on my behalf." Reminiscent of Moses when the people told him,""You speak to us and we will listen, but don't let God speak with us, or we may die." (Ex. 20:19) Protestants want to encourage the believer to "Come boldly (yourselves) before the Throne" (Heb. 4:16, Eph 3:12) rather than leaning on an intermediary, whether out of fear or slackness.

patrick jane
April 3rd, 2016, 07:45 PM
Can this pleased get moved to exclusive christian theology? I wanted to post it in there.
You'll have to send a PM to Sherman or Knight to move your thread. I know what you mean about the saints and praying to them, we have access to God directly, no priest is needed as a mediator.

SaulToPaul
April 4th, 2016, 06:37 AM
I lost all 15 of my brown scapulars, I hope saint Anthony can help me find them before it's too late.

Nick M
April 4th, 2016, 06:56 AM
Roman Catholics are not the only ones with phony doctrine. But asking somebody who can't hear you for help is certainly stupid as well as a stoning offense for Israel.

Spockrates
April 4th, 2016, 09:07 AM
Ok. I'M actually going to stick my head in here. Gulp.
It seems like this is THE issue of arguments between Catholics and protestants.
Well first, on a good note, I was in a Catholic church a couple of times, the same one, and they prayed only in Jesus name. It is my understanding that now that catholics are allowed to have their own bible to read it is evolving. They used to be forbidden to read their own bible's and had to go on only what the priests said.
Back to praying to deceased saints.
I noticed that the one scripture taken as that one can do this as mentioned by a few catholics Ive seen is Revelation 5:8 'When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.' It was admitted by a Catholic reference these are the prayers of the saints on earth. But he said these elders were involved in praying, too. Ok. Now here is what doesn't make sense to me with that. We don't even know who the 24 elders all are. 12 are apostles, but we only know for sure who eleven are. We can make a good guess that the other 12 are probably Moses and Elijah since they appeared in glory with Jesus before his crucifixion on the mountain. Probably some who are not even in the bible.
So if you are a catholic, then please explain this a little better because it really doesn't make sense.

I really don't know why there has to such contention about catholics vs. Protestants, tho. I guess if you believe and except Jesus as your Lord and savior then you are saved. So what IS the big deal? Ultimately, God knows the heart. So if there are some quirks, oh well. Really tho, maybe you could try praying to God in Jesus name for a while, since that is scriptural and see what happens. Unless that is too scary which may mean there are hidden things going on. I am writing this admitting that I am a work in progress also as I continue to read my bible, and am not 'judging' anyone.
Do you who pray to saints in heaven, do you sometimes pray to God the Father in Jesus name? Or even to Jesus himself? They are both in there.

Not a Catholic, but I've spent a good deal of time asking them questions like the one you asked. The explanation they most commonly give to your question: Catholics don't really pray to saints. They ask the saints to pray for them. One example: "Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners." Such is not praying to Mary, they say, it's asking Mary to pray for them.

So it seems they define prayer as asking For God to act in some way, not asking someone to ask God to act in some way. That is, speaking to someone who is not present is not sufficient to make some communication a prayer.

Spockrates
April 4th, 2016, 09:33 AM
So it all comes down to what the word prayer means. Other differences of opinion between Catholics and non-Catholic Christians often derive from the meaning of a single word.

Take the word grace for example. Both Catholics and non-Catholic Christians believe we are saved by grace through faith. But whereas non-Catholics tell me grace is God's undeserved favor to forgive us, Catholics have told me grace is God's undeserved power to make us more like Christ. So it seems the grace they believe saves us is the power to transform their lives.

Spockrates
April 4th, 2016, 09:36 AM
I think it would have been helpful if the biblical authors provided a glossary to the word of God. But since they did not, different religions have come up with different glossaries of there own, I think. [emoji4]

Bradley D
April 4th, 2016, 11:11 PM
Here in the Philippines the Catholics are really into the Saints. The community I live is named San Miguel (Saint Archangel Michael). They have a fiesta for him. I see past human beings designated Saints as good people who set good examples as Christians. However, I believe many of them would not have thought of themselves as Saints. It seems to be more of a human want to make idols. I believe in praying as our Lord Jesus taught us. "Our Father.."