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Robert Pate
March 28th, 2016, 08:19 AM
"There is a way that seems right unto a man: but the end thereof are the ways of death" Proverbs 14:12.

The way that seems right to a man are the ways of religion. Religion is always man centered. All of the cults have a man at the center of their doctrine, religion or theology. In the Calvinist religion it is John Calvin. In the Catholic religion it is the pope. In the Mormon religion it is Joseph Smith. Regardless of which religion it is there is always a man at the center.

The Christian religion or faith does not have a man at its center, it is founded on the work and the person of Jesus Christ who was and is without sin.

Religion seems like the right way, do good works, be a good person and God will accept you into heaven. This is the devils lie. We are all born into sin, Psalm 51:5. We are all sinners without works. We did not become sinners by what we did or by what we have become. We became sinners because our parents were sinners, because their parents were sinners and it all goes back to Adam, Romans 5:12.

When Adam sinned God with drew his Spirit from him. All that are born into the world are void of the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit is only given to those who hear and believe the Gospel, Paul said, "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (because you did something) or by the hearing of faith (hearing and believing the Gospel) Galatians 3:2. Before one can receive the Holy Spirit God must see you as perfect and complete "In Christ". To be "In Christ" means that you have forsaken your religion or your righteousness and that you are totally and completely dependent upon the righteousness and the atonement of your sins by Christ for your salvation.

This is what Peter meant when he said..."Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God (The Gospel) which lives and abides forever" 1 Peter 1:23. The Holy Spirit and the Gospel message are inseparable. All who hear and believe the Gospel are born again. This is why Jesus told the apostles to go into all of the world and preach the Gospel to everyone, Mark 16:15. Paul wrote, "For the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes" Romans 1:16.

This is God's way. This is God's plan of salvation. This is the only way that anyone can be saved. It is not the way of Calvinism, nor is it the way of Catholicism or any man conceived religion. It is God's way.

jamie
March 28th, 2016, 09:27 AM
Before one can receive the Holy Spirit God must see you as perfect and complete "In Christ".


By a person's own works, is that what you are saying?

The purpose of God's Spirit is to guide a person into becoming perfect and complete in Christ. You have the cart before the horse.

jamie
March 28th, 2016, 09:37 AM
Who do you believe to be the source of religion at its beginning?


And at the end of the time I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven and my understanding returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him (Christ) who lives forever, for His dominion is an everlasting dominion and His kingdom is from generation to generation. (Daniel 4:34)

Sounds to me like Nebuchadnezzar saw the Light.

PureX
March 28th, 2016, 09:50 AM
"There is a way that seems right unto a man: but the end thereof are the ways of death" Proverbs 14:12. Ain't none of us getting out of here alive, regardless of what way we choose to follow. So I must surmise that this is about a kind of spiritual death. In which case not much is being illuminated, here, since we all think our way is the "right way" or we wouldn't be following it. But not all ways are the right way, for us, and so some of us are bound to be fooling ourselves (which is all this quote seems to be pointing out).

The funny thing is, though, that everyone who reads this quote will assume it's the 'other guys' that are fooling themselves, and will find themselves in that spiritual graveyard in the end. So that no one ever really learns anything from reading this quote. Because everyone applies it to everyone else.

That's the interesting thing about much of the Bible text: it really only has value when we apply it to ourselves. Which we almost never do.

Robert Pate
March 28th, 2016, 01:19 PM
Ain't none of us getting out of here alive, regardless of what way we choose to follow. So I must surmise that this is about a kind of spiritual death. In which case not much is being illuminated, here, since we all think our way is the "right way" or we wouldn't be following it. But not all ways are the right way, for us, and so some of us are bound to be fooling ourselves (which is all this quote seems to be pointing out).

The funny thing is, though, that everyone who reads this quote will assume it's the 'other guys' that are fooling themselves, and will find themselves in that spiritual graveyard in the end. So that no one ever really learns anything from reading this quote. Because everyone applies it to everyone else.

That's the interesting thing about much of the Bible text: it really only has value when we apply it to ourselves. … Which we almost never do.


It is not God's fault if one finds themselves in hell.

God has done all that he can do for the salvation of fallen man.

If they refuse to go God's way and go their own way, it is not God's fault, Romans 1:18-20.

Robert Pate
March 28th, 2016, 01:24 PM
By a person's own works, is that what you are saying?

The purpose of God's Spirit is to guide a person into becoming perfect and complete in Christ. You have the cart before the horse.

Far from it.

No one can become acceptable to God by their works.

When one comes to Christ as a repent sinner and accepts what God has done for them in Jesus Christ, God gives them the Holy Spirit and places them in Christ, Ephesians 2:6.

jamie
March 28th, 2016, 02:35 PM
When one comes to Christ as a repent sinner and accepts what God has done for them in Jesus Christ, God gives them the Holy Spirit and places them in Christ, Ephesians 2:6.


But you said before a person receives God's Spirit the person must be perfect and complete.

You said, "Before one can receive the Holy Spirit God must see you as perfect and complete 'In Christ'."

Which is it?

genuineoriginal
March 28th, 2016, 02:53 PM
The Christian religion or faith does not have a man at its center

Acts 2:22
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Robert Pate
March 28th, 2016, 03:04 PM
But you said before a person receives God's Spirit the person must be perfect and complete.

You said, "Before one can receive the Holy Spirit God must see you as perfect and complete 'In Christ'."

Which is it?


Being "In Christ" is a spiritual thing. It is not something that can be obtained through works.

Robert Pate
March 28th, 2016, 03:06 PM
Acts 2:22
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Jesus is the Godman, he is as much as man can be and as much as God can be in one person

genuineoriginal
March 28th, 2016, 03:22 PM
Jesus is the Godman, he is as much as man can be and as much as God can be in one person
That is not what the Bible says.

Robert Pate
March 28th, 2016, 04:41 PM
That is not what the Bible says.

Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" John 10:30.

That's good enough for me.

genuineoriginal
March 28th, 2016, 04:59 PM
Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" John 10:30.
Just how are Jesus and the Father one?
We are supposed to be one with Jesus and the Father in that exact same manner.

John 17:22-23
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

jamie
March 28th, 2016, 05:59 PM
Jesus said, "I and the Father are one" John 10:30.

That's good enough for me.


And we are one with them. Is that also good enough for you?

patrick jane
March 28th, 2016, 06:14 PM
And we are one with them. Is that also good enough for you?
You are not one with God and Christ here on earth, not yet. If you think you are then do a miracle like God, Jesus, Paul and the other apostles.

beloved57
March 28th, 2016, 07:23 PM
"There is a way that seems right unto a man: but the end thereof are the ways of death" Proverbs 14:12.

The way that seems right to a man are the ways of religion. Religion is always man centered. All of the cults have a man at the center of their doctrine, religion or theology. In the Calvinist religion it is John Calvin. In the Catholic religion it is the pope. In the Mormon religion it is Joseph Smith. Regardless of which religion it is there is always a man at the center.

The Christian religion or faith does not have a man at its center, it is founded on the work and the person of Jesus Christ who was and is without sin.

Religion seems like the right way, do good works, be a good person and God will accept you into heaven. This is the devils lie. We are all born into sin, Psalm 51:5. We are all sinners without works. We did not become sinners by what we did or by what we have become. We became sinners because our parents were sinners, because their parents were sinners and it all goes back to Adam, Romans 5:12.

When Adam sinned God with drew his Spirit from him. All that are born into the world are void of the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit is only given to those who hear and believe the Gospel, Paul said, "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (because you did something) or by the hearing of faith (hearing and believing the Gospel) Galatians 3:2. Before one can receive the Holy Spirit God must see you as perfect and complete "In Christ". To be "In Christ" means that you have forsaken your religion or your righteousness and that you are totally and completely dependent upon the righteousness and the atonement of your sins by Christ for your salvation.

This is what Peter meant when he said..."Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God (The Gospel) which lives and abides forever" 1 Peter 1:23. The Holy Spirit and the Gospel message are inseparable. All who hear and believe the Gospel are born again. This is why Jesus told the apostles to go into all of the world and preach the Gospel to everyone, Mark 16:15. Paul wrote, "For the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believes" Romans 1:16.

This is God's way. This is God's plan of salvation. This is the only way that anyone can be saved. It is not the way of Calvinism, nor is it the way of Catholicism or any man conceived religion. It is God's way.

You teach salvation by works, by what a person does. Its the way of cain !

jamie
March 28th, 2016, 07:32 PM
You are not one with God and Christ here on earth, not yet. If you think you are then do a miracle like God, Jesus, Paul and the other apostles.


Miracles? Not my job. (1 Corinthians 12:29)


I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me and I in You that they also may be one in Us that the world may believe that You sent Me. (John 17:20-21)

glorydaz
March 28th, 2016, 07:38 PM
By a person's own works, is that what you are saying?

The purpose of God's Spirit is to guide a person into becoming perfect and complete in Christ. You have the cart before the horse.

You won't have a cart or a horse if you follow that plan.

patrick jane
March 28th, 2016, 07:49 PM
Miracles? Not my job. (1 Corinthians 12:29)
I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me and I in You that they also may be one in Us that the world may believe that You sent Me. (John 17:20-21)


Future event. Plus you're on the heretic list

PureX
March 28th, 2016, 08:09 PM
It is not God's fault if one finds themselves in hell.

God has done all that he can do for the salvation of fallen man.

If they refuse to go God's way and go their own way, it is not God's faultNone of that really matters, though, un less the "they" in this case, is YOU. But of course you are assuming that it isn't. Which is exactly what "they" are doing.

jamie
March 28th, 2016, 10:26 PM
Future event.



The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs — heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ if indeed we suffer with Him that we may also be glorified together. (Romans 8:16-17)

Robert Pate
March 30th, 2016, 04:55 PM
None of that really matters, though, un less the "they" in this case, is YOU. But of course you are assuming that it isn't. Which is exactly what "they" are doing.

Maybe that is why Paul said, "Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith".

PureX
March 31st, 2016, 07:38 AM
Maybe that is why Paul said, "Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith".Yes, but that's another mostly meaningless quote in that everyone thinks their religious beliefs are the truth of God. So that upon self-examination, they will inevitably conclude that they are "in the faith". How could it be otherwise when they are determining what being in the faith, means?

And what do you think Paul means here by "in the faith"? Of course he means that everyone else should believe as he believes, because he, of course, assumes that his beliefs are the truth of God. (Just like everyone else does.) Such that "faith" becomes self-refrencing, and therefor, inevitably self-righteous.

Robert Pate
March 31st, 2016, 10:32 AM
Yes, but that's another mostly meaningless quote in that everyone thinks their religious beliefs are the truth of God. So that upon self-examination, they will inevitably conclude that they are "in the faith". How could it be otherwise when they are determining what being in the faith, means?

And what do you think Paul means here by "in the faith"? Of course he means that everyone else should believe as he believes, because he, of course, assumes that his beliefs are the truth of God. (Just like everyone else does.) Such that "faith" becomes self-refrencing, and therefor, inevitably self-righteous.

There are evidences of the Holy Spirit that determine if one is in the faith. John encourages us to try the Spirits to see if they be of God, 1 John 4:1.

PureX
March 31st, 2016, 02:03 PM
There are evidences of the Holy Spirit that determine if one is in the faith. John encourages us to try the Spirits to see if they be of God, 1 John 4:1.That's actually good advice, but it can also be misconstrued by our own bias.

I have always encouraged Christians to test their faith not against bible quotes or religious dogmas, but against the healing power of love and forgiveness, and of kindness and generosity. If what we believe, and what we do, manifest that healing power (both within ourselves and to others) then we are "in the Spirit",and therefor "in the faith". Because that what faith is: embodying those attributes of God's love/Christ.

Unfortunately, few listen. They would much prefer to be told what to think and do by religious authorities that are no more spiritually based than they are.

Robert Pate
April 1st, 2016, 07:44 AM
That's actually good advice, but it can also be misconstrued by our own bias.

I have always encouraged Christians to test their faith not against bible quotes or religious dogmas, but against the healing power of love and forgiveness, and of kindness and generosity. If what we believe, and what we do, manifest that healing power (both within ourselves and to others) then we are "in the Spirit",and therefor "in the faith". Because that what faith is: embodying those attributes of God's love/Christ.

Unfortunately, few listen. They would much prefer to be told what to think and do by religious authorities that are no more spiritually based than they are.


Trouble with that is that there are some cultist that can out shine most Christians because they believe that they are saved by their works. I have known some very sweet Gospel rejecting people that appear to be Christians, but are not.

Evidence of the Holy Spirit is that the Christian is Christ and Gospel centered, John 15:26.

PureX
April 1st, 2016, 08:13 AM
Trouble with that is that there are some cultist that can out shine most Christians because they believe that they are saved by their works. I have known some very sweet Gospel rejecting people that appear to be Christians, but are not.Well, I'd far rather meet the Christians that think they are saved by doing good works than the nasty, mean-spirited Christians that think they are saved by reciting 'magical' religious proclamations, and then continue to live like fascist pigs.

Also, who is and who isn't a Christian isn't really any of our business, is it? Our business is to embody the healing power of God's love, and forgiveness, and kindness, and generosity. So that others can experience it in their reality, through us, and understand it in their hearts and minds, and then hopefully choose to do likewise. Who does or doesn't is not up to us. And is not within our place or ability to judge.

Robert Pate
April 1st, 2016, 09:26 AM
Well, I'd far rather meet the Christians that think they are saved by doing good works than the nasty, mean-spirited Christians that think they are saved by reciting 'magical' religious proclamations, and then continue to live like fascist pigs.

Also, who is and who isn't a Christian isn't really any of our business, is it? Our business is to embody the healing power of God's love, and forgiveness, and kindness, and generosity. So that others can experience it in their reality, through us, and understand it in their hearts and minds, and then hopefully choose to do likewise. Who does or doesn't is not up to us. And is not within our place or ability to judge.


The look at me doctrine is not a good idea. Remember that Paul professed that he was "The Chief of Sinners". The whole idea in witnessing is to bring the unbeliever to something that is totally and completely outside of himself who can forgive his sins. Paul said, "We don't preach ourselves" we preach Jesus Christ.

PureX
April 1st, 2016, 09:49 AM
The look at me doctrine is not a good idea. Remember that Paul professed that he was "The Chief of Sinners". The whole idea in witnessing is to bring the unbeliever to something that is totally and completely outside of himself who can forgive his sins. Paul said, "We don't preach ourselves" we preach Jesus Christ.No one is suggesting that we "preach ourselves". And yet every preacher does exactly that. Because every preacher is preaching his own beliefs to others, whether he invented them himself, or borrowed them from someone else. Which is exactly why we should not be measuring ourselves by what we preach or following other preachers like the blind following the blind. But instead, by the effects of what we do in the world and the people around us.

Robert Pate
April 1st, 2016, 11:05 AM
No one is suggesting that we "preach ourselves". And yet every preacher does exactly that. Because every preacher is preaching his own beliefs to others, whether he invented them himself, or borrowed them from someone else. Which is exactly why we should not be measuring ourselves by what we preach or following other preachers like the blind following the blind. But instead, by the effects of what we do in the world and the people around us.

No doubt about it, we can have an influence on others by the way that we live.
But how we live is not the message that we are called to preach.

PureX
April 1st, 2016, 11:27 AM
No doubt about it, we can have an influence on others by the way that we live.
But how we live is not the message that we are called to preach.Any message that does not effect how we live, for the better, is just empty babble, or worse, is encouraging evil.

Robert Pate
April 2nd, 2016, 08:34 AM
Any message that does not effect how we live, for the better, is just empty babble, or worse, is encouraging evil.

The Gospel of the changed life is more Catholic than it is Christian.

All who hear and believe the Gospel are born again. It is the Holy Spirit working in the life of the believer that changes his life and makes him a witness for Christ and his Gospel.

It is all of God.