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genuineoriginal
March 16th, 2016, 10:31 AM
The summaries come from ISRAEL and THE CHURCH by William E. Cox (http://www.neve-family.com/books/jews/Israel&TheChurch.html)

A summary of Replacement Theology

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The historical Christian teaching always has been that national Israel was a type of the church, and that the church replaced Israel on the Day of Pentecost. This view holds that God made two sets of promises to Israel -- natujral promises and spiritual promises. All earthly promises to Israel have been either fulfilled or invalidated because of disobedience. All spiritual promises are being fulfilled through the church, which is made up of Jews and Gentiles alike.

Main Points of Historical Christian Teaching


1. God has always had but one spiritual people, represented by the remnant in every generation.
2. God's promises to Israel were conditional.
3. All earthly promises to Israel have been either fulfilled or invalidated through disobedience and unbelief.
4. Israel was a type of the church and was superseded by the church.
5. The church was prophesied in the Old Testament, in Old Testament language.
6. Christ was, and is, the" only Hope of Israel. And Israelites (Jews) will be saved only if they accept him during this age.
7. The first advent of Christ completed Israel's redemption, and manifested the Israel of God (the church) referred to in Galatians 6:16.
8. Christ institued a Jewish-Gentile church.
9. All unfulfilled spiritual promises to Israel are being fulfilled through the Christian church.
10. This does not represent a change in God's plan, but evidences progressive revelation.
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A summary of Two People Two Programs

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Dispensationalists teach that God has two separate peoples -- Israel and the church -- and two separate plans for them. Israel, they say, is "an earthly people," while the church is "a heavenly people." Not only does God have two separate plans for these peoples, but two distinct destinations. They teach that Israel will spend her eternity on the earth, following an earthly millennium of one thousand years, while the church will spend eternity in heaven after the millennium. They say the Israel was indeed a type of the church, but then fo on to teach that this is the one and only type in the entire Bible which was never meant to have an anti-type (fulfillment)! Dispensationalists teach that Jesus, at his first advent, offered to Israel an earthly millennium; that Israel rejected this offer; that God then postponed his plans for Israel; and that the church was instituted as a temporary (parenthetic) plan until after the second advent.

Main Points of Dispensationalist Teaching


1. God has two bodies (peoples) -- Israel, and the church.
2. God's promises to Israel were unconditional, and therefore are still binding.
3. God's promises concerning the return to the land, rebuilding the temple, etc., were never fulfilled. They aare therefore still future.
4. Although Israel was a type of the church, they will always remain separate.
5. Christ instituted the church as a "parenthesis."
6. Christ came the first time to establish an earthly millennial kingdom with Israel.
7. Israel rejected him, then God postponed this plan until the second advent.
8. Christ instituted a Gentile church.
9. Israel is God's earthly people; the church is God's heavenly people.
10. Israel's destiny is to remain on earth forever; the destiny of the church is to spend eternity in heaven.
_____

Is one of these right, or is there another option?

genuineoriginal
March 16th, 2016, 04:42 PM
Are either of these true?

Historical Christian Teaching
1. God has always had but one spiritual people, represented by the remnant in every generation.

Dispensationalist Teaching
1. God has two bodies (peoples) -- Israel, and the church.

If we consider Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, and Melchizedek, we find that there are God's spiritual people that were never part of Israel and were never part of the church (the Body of Christ defined by Dispensationalists).

Because of this, it appears that God's people are represented by a remnant from every generation.

However, God chose the descendants of Israel as a special people and gave them a covenant not given to any other people.

So, that leaves the question of the role of the church.

Did the church replace the children of Israel in God's eyes?

The answer lies in the covenants.

meshak
March 16th, 2016, 05:00 PM
Here is what He says:

John 8:39-44New King James Version (NKJV)

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Danoh
March 17th, 2016, 08:24 AM
Prior to its having been given to Abraham and his multiplied seed by Covenant, the "domion over it" (over the Earth) that Adam lost, is every so often re-addressed in Scripture prior to Abraham.

From Abraham forward, though, the issue becomes that of Abraham and his multiplied seed in dominion over the Earth one day through what the singular seed makes possible in His Blood.

Thus, we read in...

Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

As for the rest of said remnant...

Matthew 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

That is not the Body of Christ, though.

jamie
March 17th, 2016, 08:35 AM
That is not the Body of Christ, though.


Whose body are the kings and priests who reign on earth?

Danoh
March 17th, 2016, 08:38 AM
Their own; Matt. 19; Acts 3.

patrick jane
March 17th, 2016, 08:45 AM
Whose body are the kings and priests who reign on earth?
No body

Tambora
March 17th, 2016, 08:51 AM
I voted for 2p2p.

Although "program" is a bit ambiguous.

Tambora
March 17th, 2016, 08:54 AM
Did the church replace the children of Israel in God's eyes?
No.

SaulToPaul
March 17th, 2016, 09:36 AM
I vote for at least 3 People, 3 Programs.

:)

steko
March 17th, 2016, 11:12 AM
I went with tupee tupee, though I agree with STP, there is one more.

genuineoriginal
March 17th, 2016, 11:18 AM
Historical Christian Teaching
2. God's promises to Israel were conditional.

Dispensationalist Teaching
2. God's promises to Israel were unconditional, and therefore are still binding.

In point number 2, both are correct.

Some of God's promises to Israel were conditional, other promises are unconditional and therefore are still binding.

patrick jane
March 17th, 2016, 11:19 AM
I vote for at least 3 People, 3 Programs.

:)
What's the third ? The remnant ?

SaulToPaul
March 17th, 2016, 11:21 AM
What's the third ? The remnant ?

Generally speaking,

1. OT Israel- will be resurrected into the land
2. NT Israel- will inherit the New Jerusalem
3. Body of Christ- seated in the heavenlies already

From Adam up until Israel was birthed, I am not sure, but I am inclined to think they will be in the Holy City.

steko
March 17th, 2016, 11:22 AM
Generally speaking,

1. OT Israel- will be resurrected into the land
2. NT Israel- will inherit the New Jerusalem
3. Body of Christ- seated in the heavenlies already

From Adam up until Israel was birthed, I am not sure, but I am inclined to think they will be in the Holy City.

Then 4P4P.

SaulToPaul
March 17th, 2016, 11:27 AM
Then 4P4P.

:jawdrop:

MAD wackos!

steko
March 17th, 2016, 11:29 AM
:jawdrop:

MAD wackos!

Thanks to Tet....I have become quite MAD.

Ktoyou
March 17th, 2016, 11:34 AM
Generally speaking,

1. OT Israel- will be resurrected into the land
2. NT Israel- will inherit the New Jerusalem
3. Body of Christ- seated in the heavenlies already

From Adam up until Israel was birthed, I am not sure, but I am inclined to think they will be in the Holy City.

I believe the same tribulation will be the testing ground for all those who inherit New Jerusalem.

jamie
March 17th, 2016, 11:43 AM
No body


So who are these?


For You were slain and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation and have made us kings and priests to our God and we shall reign on the earth. (Revelation 5:9-10)

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

Ktoyou
March 17th, 2016, 11:56 AM
So who are these?


For You were slain and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation and have made us kings and priests to our God and we shall reign on the earth. (Revelation 5:9-10)

Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)
The first, is Israel, the second is the body of Christ.

jamie
March 17th, 2016, 12:11 PM
The first, is Israel, the second is the body of Christ.


So why does Revelation 5:9-10 say: "For You were slain and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation and have made us kings and priests to our God and we shall reign on the earth."

Ktoyou
March 17th, 2016, 12:17 PM
So why does Revelation 5:9-10 say: "For You were slain and have redeemed us to God by Your blood out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation and have made us kings and priests to our God and we shall reign on the earth."

Everyone was redeemed, living and dead, and those to come. However, it must be claimed, and they did not come to know Christ. Now because they were chosen by God, they will be offered a chance to choose Christ, the second chance, in the time of tribulations.

Totton Linnet
March 17th, 2016, 01:29 PM
Nooo nooo nooooo....get it right :cool:

There is church, which includes ALL OT saints and NT saints US, WE will come from the east and the west and sit at table with Abe, Ike and Jake.

We have become FELLOW citizens of THEIR commonwealth and CO-HEIRS and partakers of their promises yet without having to obey the law but through Christ.

THEN

There is Israel, the seed of Abe. This is ethnic Israel which we see being gathered to their land, THEY are the ones to who the land is promised.

Abe was told 2 things to look at the stars, impossible to number this is the heavenly calling. Then he was shown the sand of the seashore, also impossible to number, that is the land promised to his seed. He believed God and it was recked to him as righteousness.

So we have the spiritual Jew [to who we are joined through Christ] and the earthly Jew. Quite distinct from Spiritual Israel.

Then we have a THIRD people represented by the righteous sheep at the last judgement.

These are the meek who will inherit the earth [the new earth] with the Jews.

Then there are the wicked who will be turned into hell.

So you see it is a MINORITY of mankind who will be damned, not the overwhelming mass

jamie
March 17th, 2016, 02:29 PM
...they will be offered a chance to choose Christ, the second chance...


A second chance? Why?

Does everyone get a second chance? If not then why do they get a second chance?

Tambora
March 17th, 2016, 03:09 PM
Historical Christian Teaching
2. God's promises to Israel were conditional.

Dispensationalist Teaching
2. God's promises to Israel were unconditional, and therefore are still binding.

In point number 2, both are correct.

Some of God's promises to Israel were conditional, other promises are unconditional and therefore are still binding.I agree.

meshak
March 17th, 2016, 04:26 PM
Here is what He says:

John 8:39-44New King James Version (NKJV)

39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”

Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”

Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Ktoyou
March 17th, 2016, 05:13 PM
A second chance? Why?

Does everyone get a second chance? If not then why do they get a second chance?

Only God's chosen people get a second chance. This includes all Jews, ethnic, or Jewish by faith. The reason why? God keeps his word; He promised Israel, He would keep His covenant with Israel.

Totton Linnet
March 17th, 2016, 05:27 PM
Historical Christian Teaching
2. God's promises to Israel were conditional.

Dispensationalist Teaching
2. God's promises to Israel were unconditional, and therefore are still binding.

In point number 2, both are correct.

Some of God's promises to Israel were conditional, other promises are unconditional and therefore are still binding.

Quite so, binding and certain to come to pass

jamie
March 17th, 2016, 05:46 PM
Only God's chosen people get a second chance. This includes all Jews, ethnic, or Jewish by faith. The reason why? God keeps his word; He promised Israel, He would keep His covenant with Israel.


Does he keep the same covenant with the Israel of God?

Ktoyou
March 17th, 2016, 06:10 PM
Does he keep the same covenant with the Israel of God?

I do not know what you mean? God of Israel?

jamie
March 17th, 2016, 07:25 PM
I do not know what you mean? God of Israel?


I didn't ask about the God of Israel, I asked about the Israel of God.


And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God. (Galatians 6:16)

genuineoriginal
March 18th, 2016, 09:50 AM
Historical Christian Teaching
3. All earthly promises to Israel have been either fulfilled or invalidated through disobedience and unbelief.

Dispensationalist Teaching
3. God's promises concerning the return to the land, rebuilding the temple, etc., were never fulfilled. They are therefore still future.

This passage shows God has no problem reversing certain promises that He makes.
Please notice that the promises are only ones concerning a nation and a kingdom, not promises to individuals.

Jeremiah 18:7-10
7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;
8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Is the Historical Christian teaching correct?
Did God completely abandon the children of Israel as a nation because of their refusal to repent?

No, because God will remember the covenant was made with individuals, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Leviticus 26:42-45
42 Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.
43 The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.
44 And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the Lord their God.
45 But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I am the Lord.

At this time, Israel is not completely rejected, but only blinded until the end of the time of the Gentiles.

Romans 11:25
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

The Dispensationalist teaching on this is true, God's promises concerning the return to the land, rebuilding the temple, etc., were never fulfilled. They are therefore still future.