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Samie
March 14th, 2016, 06:10 PM
Man NOT saved is NOT in Christ, and while NOT in Christ, man is dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4).

A vast majority of preachers teach that to be in Christ, people MUST first ACCEPT the gift of salvation and believe.

So, how can a man ACCEPT & BELIEVE while still spiritually dead?

Nick M
March 14th, 2016, 07:09 PM
So, how can a man ACCEPT & BELIEVE while still spiritually dead?

You have asked this before, and it has been answered. Let you be accursed you filthy animal. You are not here for anything other than to pervert the good news of the cross.

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Having believed, you were sealed, That is the order. Belief, then baptism by the Holy Spirit into Christ.

Nick M
March 14th, 2016, 07:14 PM
And for the record....

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

patrick jane
March 14th, 2016, 07:16 PM
Man NOT saved is NOT in Christ, and while NOT in Christ, man is dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4).

A vast majority of preachers teach that to be in Christ, people MUST first ACCEPT the gift of salvation and believe.

So, how can a man ACCEPT & BELIEVE while still spiritually dead?

Acts 13:10 KJV -

Lazy afternoon
March 14th, 2016, 07:22 PM
You have asked this before, and it has been answered. Let you be accursed you filthy animal. You are not here for anything other than to pervert the good news of the cross.

You are doing that.

LA

genuineoriginal
March 14th, 2016, 07:51 PM
So, how can a man ACCEPT & BELIEVE while still spiritually dead?
People are not "spiritually" dead as long as they have the breath (spirit) of life in them.

People in the grave (sheol, hell) are "spiritually" dead , as well as being physically dead, because they no longer have the breath (spirit) of life in them.

turbosixx
March 14th, 2016, 08:35 PM
A vast majority of preachers teach that to be in Christ, people MUST first ACCEPT the gift of salvation and believe.


Part of the problem is for someone to become a Christian, "accept" isn't found in scripture. I'm not familiar with any passages telling us to accept anything. If we look at scripture, it tells us how to become a Christian and we can also look to scripture to see examples of how people became Christians in response to the gospel.

Also, "believe" is found in scripture but what it means to believe has been has been sugar coated to appeal to the masses.

Samie
March 14th, 2016, 09:13 PM
. . .

Having believed, you were sealed, That is the order. Belief, then baptism by the Holy Spirit into Christ.Jesus: Apart from Me, you can do NOTHING. John 15:5 NASB

Nick M: Apart from Christ, man can do SOMETHING - he can believe.

Nick tells Christ a better order.

jamie
March 14th, 2016, 09:46 PM
Nick tells Christ a better order.


Nick is right, we must respond to the Father who calls us to Christ.

If we respond with belief the Father gives us to Christ.

Bradley D
March 15th, 2016, 12:03 AM
One would not accept and believe unless they had hope in Christ. That tells me their spirit is still alive. The spiritually dead (Matthew 8:22) would not turn to Christ. So how could they accept and believe?

Samie
March 15th, 2016, 04:03 AM
Nick is right, we must respond to the Father who calls us to Christ.

If we respond with belief the Father gives us to Christ.Here comes another follower of Nick.

Jesus tells His disciples: "Apart from me, you can do NOTHING". John 15:5 NASB

Nick, genuineoriginal & jamie respond to Christ: "No, apart from You, we can do SOMETHING - we can believe.

As if I hear Jesus saying: Whom are you bluffing? You tell me you can believe in me, so why NOT believe Me saying apart from Me, you can do NOTHING?

Samie
March 15th, 2016, 04:18 AM
Jesus told His disciples: "Apart from Me, you can do NOTHING." John 15:5 NASB

Samie responded: I believe you Lord. But when I told them your words, PJ responded with Acts 13:10 KJV.

But Jesus pointed Samie to Matt 5:11 KJV.

Nick M
March 15th, 2016, 06:54 AM
Jesus: Apart from Me, you can do NOTHING. John 15:5 NASB



Yeah, and?

jamie
March 15th, 2016, 07:40 AM
Jesus tells His disciples: "Apart from me, you can do NOTHING". John 15:5 NASB


The context is the bearing of the spiritual fruit of Jesus Christ.

This is not difficult to understand, to bear fruit of Christ we must be indwelt by Christ.

Why are you playing dumb?

Samie
March 15th, 2016, 04:11 PM
The context is the bearing of the spiritual fruit of Jesus Christ.

This is not difficult to understand, to bear fruit of Christ we must be indwelt by Christ.

Why are you playing dumb?Did you notice this dumb is able to believe that apart from Christ, this dumb can do NOTHING, while you and your genius crew insist that apart from Christ you can do SOMETHING?

Try to think about this, geniuses:

Faith is fruit of the Spirit. Jesus told His disciples that apart from Him, they can cannot bear fruit, and so can't have faith. Are you geniuses better off than His disciples you can bear fruit apart from Christ?

jamie
March 15th, 2016, 07:27 PM
Faith is fruit of the Spirit. Jesus told His disciples that apart from Him, they can cannot bear fruit, and so can't have faith.



Then He touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith let it be to you.” (Matthew 9:29)

These men did not have God's Spirit but they had faith and were healed. Whose faith? Their faith.

Samie
March 16th, 2016, 02:54 PM
Then He touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith let it be to you.” (Matthew 9:29)

These men did not have God's Spirit but they had faith and were healed. Whose faith? Their faith.Sorry but irrelevant, I guess.

You need to address how while apart from Christ, you can do SOMETHING, as you claimed. Jesus told His disciples, they can't. Are you better off than His disciples you can do SOMETHING apart from Christ?

genuineoriginal
March 16th, 2016, 04:04 PM
Sorry but irrelevant, I guess.

You need to address how while apart from Christ, you can do SOMETHING, as you claimed. Jesus told His disciples, they can't. Are you better off than His disciples you can do SOMETHING apart from Christ?
Already answered:


The context is the bearing of the spiritual fruit of Jesus Christ.

This is not difficult to understand, to bear fruit of Christ we must be indwelt by Christ.

Yes, the context is about bearing fruit.

Paul addressed this further in Romans:


Romans 6:16-22
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

The change happened when we obeyed.

Samie
March 18th, 2016, 06:08 AM
Already answered:



Yes, the context is about bearing fruit.

Paul addressed this further in Romans:

Romans 6:16-22
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
The change happened when we obeyed.That's precisely the point. The context is fruit bearing. And only those in Christ can bear fruit. But you claim, apart from Christ, you can bear fruit.

Obeying is a human act, doable only by those in Christ because apart from Him, Christ said man can do NOTHING. Yet you claim, apart from Him, you can do SOMETHING.

jamie
March 18th, 2016, 08:03 AM
That's precisely the point. The context is fruit bearing. And only those in Christ can bear fruit. But you claim, apart from Christ, you can bear fruit.

Obeying is a human act, doable only by those in Christ because apart from Him, Christ said man can do NOTHING. Yet you claim, apart from Him, you can do SOMETHING.


We must be drawn by the Father and given to Christ. No where did Jesus say the Father could do nothing.

genuineoriginal
March 18th, 2016, 11:09 AM
That's precisely the point. The context is fruit bearing. And only those in Christ can bear fruit. But you claim, apart from Christ, you can bear fruit.
Yep, I believe it because that is what the Bible says.

Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Obeying is a human act, doable only by those in Christ
The Bible does not say only those in Christ can obey.

Genesis 26:5
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Romans 4:3
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Samie
March 18th, 2016, 02:10 PM
Yep, I believe it because that is what the Bible says.

Matthew 3:7-12
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The Bible does not say only those in Christ can obey.

Genesis 26:5
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Romans 4:3
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.Are you saying, Abraham was NOT in Christ, yet able to obey?

genuineoriginal
March 18th, 2016, 04:05 PM
Are you saying, Abraham was NOT in Christ, yet able to obey?

That is what the Bible shows.

Samie
March 18th, 2016, 04:38 PM
Are you saying, Abraham was NOT in Christ, yet able to obey?
That is what the Bible shows.Are you sure?

genuineoriginal
March 18th, 2016, 04:49 PM
Are you sure?

Yep.

Genesis 4:7
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

jamie
March 18th, 2016, 05:13 PM
Are you saying, Abraham was NOT in Christ, yet able to obey?



Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. (Galatians 3:16)

Samie
March 19th, 2016, 12:20 AM
Are you saying, Abraham was NOT in Christ, yet able to obey?
That is what the Bible shows.
Are you sure?
Yep.

Genesis 4:7
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.The verse you offered as basis to prove that the Bible shows Abraham was able to obey EVEN if he was NOT in Christ, does not reflect what you want it to say. Gen 4:7 speaks about Cain, NOT Abraham.

Try another verse(s).

And while you're at it, here's jamie's post for you to ponder:

Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ. (Galatians 3:16)Looks more like the Bible points us to a direction opposite to where you are pointing.

Ktoyou
March 19th, 2016, 10:03 AM
Did you notice this dumb is able to believe that apart from Christ, this dumb can do NOTHING, while you and your genius crew insist that apart from Christ you can do SOMETHING?

Try to think about this, geniuses:


Oh pipe down, or you will have to stand in the corner.

1Mind1Spirit
March 19th, 2016, 11:42 AM
It would seem that Father does more than merely draw us.

He also reveals.

Could Simon have believed who Jesus was without such a revealing?

Matthew 16:17
And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Ahhh, and Abraham.....

How hard was it to believe with the son of God stopping by for dinner on more than one occasion?

Hmmmm :think:

Nick M
March 19th, 2016, 01:15 PM
Calvinists think God is so weak he can not be heard by all.

1Mind1Spirit
March 19th, 2016, 01:31 PM
Calvinists think God is so weak he can not be heard by all.

So now yer a mind reader?

Amazing, no need for ears hunh?

Dispy's are soooo cool.

genuineoriginal
March 20th, 2016, 08:25 AM
The verse you offered as basis to prove that the Bible shows Abraham was able to obey EVEN if he was NOT in Christ, does not reflect what you want it to say. Gen 4:7 speaks about Cain, NOT Abraham.
There are more people than Abraham in the Bible, and none of them were in Jesus the Messiah until after Jesus was baptized by John.

genuineoriginal
March 20th, 2016, 08:28 AM
Amazing, no need for ears hunh?
Calvinists don't need ears?

1Mind1Spirit
March 20th, 2016, 06:38 PM
Calvinists don't need ears?

I was referring to Dispy's.

As far as Cavinists go, the one's I know believe Proverbs, that is that God opens the hearing ear.

Do you?

God's Truth
March 20th, 2016, 10:01 PM
Man NOT saved is NOT in Christ, and while NOT in Christ, man is dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4).

A vast majority of preachers teach that to be in Christ, people MUST first ACCEPT the gift of salvation and believe.

So, how can a man ACCEPT & BELIEVE while still spiritually dead?

We are not just flesh we have a spirit.


Hebrews 12:9, Zechariah 12:1, and Malachi 2:15.


Some people only care about pleasing their flesh. Those people cannot please God.

Romans 8:8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.


There are people that only want to please their flesh, and there are people who are more spiritual they care less about their flesh.

Those who want more in life, when they read or hear the words of God, they want to be saved, so they do what Jesus says to get saved.

When Jesus saves a person that person has the Holy Spirit; and when the saved obey Jesus' teaches that is how the Holy Spirit lives through us, and that is how we live through the Holy Spirit. That causes our spirit to become more alive. We become conformed to the image of Christ, and grow spiritually.

Samie
March 22nd, 2016, 03:05 PM
From the way it looks, the correct answer to the question which is the title of this thread is "NO".

Those who wanted to answer "YES" cannot seem to find Scriptural basis for their answer.

Again:
Man NOT saved is NOT in Christ, and while NOT in Christ, man is dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4).

A vast majority of preachers teach that to be in Christ, people MUST first ACCEPT the gift of salvation and believe.

So, can a man ACCEPT & BELIEVE while still dead?

God's Truth
March 22nd, 2016, 07:48 PM
From the way it looks, the correct answer to the question which is the title of this thread is "NO".

Those who wanted to answer "YES" cannot seem to find Scriptural basis for their answer.

Again:

We are flesh and spirit. Not everyone only wants to ONLY PLEASE THEIR FLESH.

There are those who do right.

You were given many scriptures telling that truth, but you ignore the Truth.

God's Truth
March 22nd, 2016, 07:52 PM
There are those who do right and ARE NOT YET SAVED.

God's Truth
March 22nd, 2016, 07:53 PM
Nowhere anywhere in the Bible are we told people cannot obey anything God says.

patrick jane
March 22nd, 2016, 09:57 PM
Nowhere anywhere in the Bible are we told people cannot obey anything God says.
Yes it does

Romans 8:7 KJV - read it and understand.

Romans 7:6 KJV -

Tambora
March 22nd, 2016, 10:09 PM
Man NOT saved is NOT in Christ, and while NOT in Christ, man is dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4).

A vast majority of preachers teach that to be in Christ, people MUST first ACCEPT the gift of salvation and believe.

So, how can a man ACCEPT & BELIEVE while still spiritually dead?Yes.

In the story of the Prodigal Son, he is said to be dead, but still chooses to return to his father's home where he became alive again.

patrick jane
March 22nd, 2016, 10:22 PM
Man NOT saved is NOT in Christ, and while NOT in Christ, man is dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4).

A vast majority of preachers teach that to be in Christ, people MUST first ACCEPT the gift of salvation and believe.

So, how can a man ACCEPT & BELIEVE while still spiritually dead?

Those that don't accept and believe go straight to hell

God's Truth
March 23rd, 2016, 12:05 AM
Yes it does

Romans 8:7 KJV - read it and understand.

Romans 7:6 KJV -

This scripture is about a mind GOVERNED by the FLESH. Not everyone's mind is governed by the flesh.


Romans 8:7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.


This scripture is where Paul tries to explain how one under the old law struggles with sin without having faith. Not everyone struggles with sin.

Romans 7:6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

1Mind1Spirit
March 23rd, 2016, 10:40 AM
Yes.

In the story of the Prodigal Son, he is said to be dead, but still chooses to return to his father's home where he became alive again.

Could this apply to those who are eating out of the Left Behind fables?

When will they/you return home?

patrick jane
March 23rd, 2016, 10:43 AM
This scripture is about a mind GOVERNED by the FLESH. Not everyone's mind is governed by the flesh.


Romans 8:7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.


This scripture is where Paul tries to explain how one under the old law struggles with sin without having faith. Not everyone struggles with sin.

Romans 7:6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
You sin everyday whether you think you "struggle" with it or not. Bible perverter

Tambora
March 23rd, 2016, 10:47 AM
Could this apply to those who are eating out of the Left Behind fables?

When will they/you return home?Has nothing to do with "Left Behind fables".

It was an answer to Samie as an example of about how one can be dead and still be able to accept and believe.

1Mind1Spirit
March 23rd, 2016, 11:09 AM
Has nothing to do with "Left Behind fables".


Yes, it does.


It was an answer to Samie as an example of about how one can be dead and still be able to accept and believe.

Your answer was a bad example.

The prodigal son had already known home.

Not the same thing as an unbeliever.

The prodigal son was twice dead.

Tambora
March 23rd, 2016, 11:23 AM
Yes, it does.No, it doesn't.




Your answer was a bad example.No it wasn't.
Samie asked for a biblical example of one being "dead" that can still be able to accept and believe a different destination than the one he was presently in.
I provided a biblical example of one being "dead" that could still chose to go to the father.

1Mind1Spirit
March 23rd, 2016, 11:30 AM
No, it doesn't.



No it wasn't.
Samie asked for a biblical example of one being "dead" that can still be able to accept and believe a different destination than the one he was presently in.
I provided a biblical example of one being "dead" that could still chose to go to the father.

Maybe Samie could tell us if he/she meant once dead or twice?

Left Behind feeders, like the prodigal son, are the latter.

patrick jane
March 23rd, 2016, 11:33 AM
Maybe Samie could tell us if he/she meant once dead or twice?

Left Behind feeders are the latter.
:chuckle:

Samie
March 24th, 2016, 03:16 PM
Yes.

In the story of the Prodigal Son, he is said to be dead, but still chooses to return to his father's home where he became alive again.The prodigal son is ORIGINALLY born into the family of his father. And that's you and me and everyone else because of what our Father in heaven did FOR us through His Son. We are ALREADY in the Family of God; already IN Christ.

If like the prodigal, we choose to live a way of life NOT in accord with the Father's will, then the fact that the prodigal was able to do it is evidence of FREEWILL. And to live the life the prodigal lived is living like dead (1 Tim 5:6). This is why we are admonished to overcome evil with good or get blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5). And the prodigal did overcome the evil of living a wayward life by deciding to return to his father's home and submit himself to the father's authority again.

The case of the prodigal is unlike the situation a vast majority of preachers tell of people PRIOR to their acceptance of Christ. While the prodigal is ORIGINALLY born into the family of his father, preachers depict people prior to their belief and acceptance as being NOT yet born in the Family of God.

Tambora
March 24th, 2016, 05:41 PM
The prodigal son is ORIGINALLY born into the family of his father. Doesn't matter where he was before concerning the answer to the question in the OP ....



So, how can a man ACCEPT & BELIEVE while still spiritually dead?

The Prodigal Son was "dead" when he made the decision to go and live with his father.


As to "how" a man could accept and believe while still spiritually dead, I believe you may have answered that yourself by the following quote.

the fact that the prodigal was able to do it is evidence of FREEWILL.


Agreed.

God's Truth
March 24th, 2016, 06:50 PM
You sin everyday whether you think you "struggle" with it or not. Bible perverter

You do not deserve a reply, except to say you do not deserve a reply. I believe there are people here who need mental help. I hope you get it, but you probably won't.

God's Truth
March 24th, 2016, 06:53 PM
...

Samie
March 25th, 2016, 07:09 AM
Doesn't matter where he was before concerning the answer to the question in the OP ....It does matter. I know because I wrote the OP. And my position has always been people are born already in the Family of God.

You teach that people are born NOT in the Family of God. To be in the Family of God, one has to believe first. And that's what the OP is questioning. This is why the case of the prodigal does not apply.

Tambora
March 25th, 2016, 09:14 AM
You teach that people are born NOT in the Family of God.
You are mistaken.
Some are, some aren't.
Israel is God's chosen people. Lot's of folks were born unto Israel.

Samie
March 27th, 2016, 04:22 PM
You are mistaken.
Some are, some aren't.All are.

God wants all to be saved. But only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life.