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Robert Pate
March 13th, 2016, 10:02 AM
Many think that they can believe what they want to believe about God and his Son Jesus Christ and that there are no consequences to what they believe.

There are consequences to not having the correct beliefs. Example, Jesus said, "I said therefore unto you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he you will die in your sins" John 8:24.

Jesus is telling us that if you do not believe that he is Lord or God you are lost. Plain and simple. Many Calvinist on this Forum do not believe that Jesus is the savior and redeemer of the whole world, in spite of many scriptures that say that he is, such as, 1 John 2:2 or 1 John 4:14. Question is can you believe that Jesus is not the savior of the whole world and still be saved? The answer is no and here is why.

The Gospel is one complete and total message. It does not include fragments of beliefs or doctrines. Many belief that Jesus is the Son of God, but do not believe that he is their savior. That is a fragment of belief and will not save. To believe the Gospel is to believe all of the Gospel and not just some of it. Catholics believe that Jesus is the savior, but do not believe that he saves completely. They believe that it is necessary for them to participate in their salvation. They do not believe the Gospel. Sinners cannot save themselves no matter what they do.

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil, Colossians 2:15 and in doing so has reconciled us and the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. This is basic Christian doctrine. To not believe this is to put yourself outside of the faith and under the judgment of God. One of the perquisites for salvation is that you must believe that Jesus is Lord or God. This is why Jesus said that if you don't believe that he is Lord or God you will die in your sins.

Christianity is a faith religion. We are called to believe things that cannot be believed by unbelievers. They are things of the Spirit that unbelievers do not have access to, 1 Corinthians 2:14. We spend a lot of time on the forum trying to convince these people that are void of the Spirit things of the Spirit.

Bociferous
March 13th, 2016, 10:15 AM
Jesus is telling us that if you do not believe that he is Lord or God you are lost. Plain and simple.
Sometimes the Bible isn't as simple as we suppose. There are at least two ways of understanding the doctrine of belief as I see it.
1. Jesus is explaining that we're responsible to believe in Him.
2. Jesus is explaining a condition of belief without reference to responsibility.

Jn 8:24 and similar verses can be read either way. Why does #1 seem to be the obvious and simple answer?

Brother Ducky
March 13th, 2016, 10:45 AM
So, since you are not a Universalist, how is Christ the Savior of the whole world?

Even if you insist, like all good Calvinists do, that Christ is sufficient for the salvation of all individuals, you have to say that he actually saves some certain persons.

Right?

Robert Pate
March 13th, 2016, 11:27 AM
Sometimes the Bible isn't as simple as we suppose. There are at least two ways of understanding the doctrine of belief as I see it.
1. Jesus is explaining that we're responsible to believe in Him.
2. Jesus is explaining a condition of belief without reference to responsibility.

Jn 8:24 and similar verses can be read either way. Why does #1 seem to be the obvious and simple answer?

Jesus is telling us that if we do not believe that he is Lord or God we will die in our sins.

Robert Pate
March 13th, 2016, 11:33 AM
So, since you are not a Universalist, how is Christ the Savior of the whole world?

Even if you insist, like all good Calvinists do, that Christ is sufficient for the salvation of all individuals, you have to say that he actually saves some certain persons.

Right?

Jesus is the savior of the whole world because he said he was, John 12:47.

Samie
March 13th, 2016, 11:36 AM
In a human family with say 10 children, family members don't all have the same capability and therefore don't have the same responsibility. The youngest could be yet an infant in his diapers while the firstborn daughter could be in her early twenties doing the laundry. They don't know the same, don't do the same. But they all are members in the family, the parents giving responsibility to one of his children he knows is commensurate with the ability of the child.

And we all are in this BIG Family of God (Eph 2:11-19), where we all are in different spiritual levels of maturity, with siblings who could even be infants in Christ (1 Cor 3:1 NIV). I don't think we can expect the same belief system to exist in each of the individual members in this family of God. But just like the parts of the Body where not all parts function the same, each of us has his own peculiar responsibility which God wrote in the heart and mind of each of his children. And we all are accountable to what God has dynamically written in each of our hearts and minds. Rest assured that God will only require of us that level of responsibility commensurate with the spiritual level of maturity we have grown into.

We are moral beings growing up into the stature of Christ. We are not to pass judgments to those who might not have yet attained to our spiritual level of maturity and hence don't yet possess the spiritual knowledge we have. When one has grown into a stature such that he is ready for a new responsibility, God will send one of His children to inform him. Just like when He sent Philip to meet with the Ethiopian eunuch.

We are a spiritual temple in progress. We are still under construction. God is not finished with us just yet.

fishrovmen
March 13th, 2016, 12:01 PM
Jesus is the savior of the whole world because he said he was, John 12:47.

So how does Jesus save someone who never responds to the Gospel? Were they born saved then "lost" their salvation?

Brother Ducky
March 13th, 2016, 12:48 PM
Jesus is the savior of the whole world because he said he was, John 12:47.

So are you now a universalist? Jesus is the savior of the whole world because he actually saves the whole world?

jamie
March 13th, 2016, 01:10 PM
So how does Jesus save someone who never responds to the Gospel? Were they born saved then "lost" their salvation?


We are all born mortal subject to death. We must die either figuratively or literally before we can be judged.

Jesus bought two resurrections with his sacrifice. The Father gives some to Jesus now and the rest later.

Brother Ducky
March 13th, 2016, 01:16 PM
Since you have thought about this a lot more than I have, what are the condiciones sine quibus non of salvation? And are you willing to declare that any who do not believe all on your list to be lost?

Bociferous
March 13th, 2016, 01:37 PM
Question is can you believe that Jesus is not the savior of the whole world and still be saved? The answer is no...
How would you explain (without modifying what is clearly stated in order to make a doctrine work) Paul's position that, after carefully laying out exclusivist conditions--being grafted into Christ by faith or cut off from Him by lack thereof--he goes on to proclaim the mystery that all Israel will be saved, and confirms this startling statement in v.32?

6days
March 13th, 2016, 02:01 PM
Jesus is telling us that if we do not believe that he is Lord or God we will die in our sins.
#Yes.
The arguments for and against Calvinism is interesting.... sometimes very devise..but as you say, salvation is pretty simple.

Robert Pate
March 13th, 2016, 02:51 PM
In a human family with say 10 children, family members don't all have the same capability and therefore don't have the same responsibility. The youngest could be yet an infant in his diapers while the firstborn daughter could be in her early twenties doing the laundry. They don't know the same, don't do the same. But they all are members in the family, the parents giving responsibility to one of his children he knows is commensurate with the ability of the child.

And we all are in this BIG Family of God (Eph 2:11-19), where we all are in different spiritual levels of maturity, with siblings who could even be infants in Christ (1 Cor 3:1 NIV). I don't think we can expect the same belief system to exist in each of the individual members in this family of God. But just like the parts of the Body where not all parts function the same, each of us has his own peculiar responsibility which God wrote in the heart and mind of each of his children. And we all are accountable to what God has dynamically written in each of our hearts and minds. Rest assured that God will only require of us that level of responsibility commensurate with the spiritual level of maturity we have grown into.

We are moral beings growing up into the stature of Christ. We are not to pass judgments to those who might not have yet attained to our spiritual level of maturity and hence don't yet possess the spiritual knowledge we have. When one has grown into a stature such that he is ready for a new responsibility, God will send one of His children to inform him. Just like when He sent Philip to meet with the Ethiopian eunuch.

We are a spiritual temple in progress. We are still under construction. God is not finished with us just yet.


You may be under construction, but I am complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.

Robert Pate
March 13th, 2016, 02:54 PM
How would you explain (without modifying what is clearly stated in order to make a doctrine work) Paul's position that, after carefully laying out exclusivist conditions--being grafted into Christ by faith or cut off from Him by lack thereof--he goes on to proclaim the mystery that all Israel will be saved, and confirms this startling statement in v.32?

Christians are spiritual Israel.

Robert Pate
March 13th, 2016, 02:56 PM
So are you now a universalist? Jesus is the savior of the whole world because he actually saves the whole world?

He makes it possible for the whole world to be saved, all you have to do is believe.

Robert Pate
March 13th, 2016, 02:59 PM
So how does Jesus save someone who never responds to the Gospel? Were they born saved then "lost" their salvation?

No one will be saved that does not respond to the Gospel. Everyone is born lost, but salvation has been provided for all.

fishrovmen
March 13th, 2016, 03:13 PM
No one will be saved that does not respond to the Gospel. Everyone is born lost, but salvation has been provided for all.

Right, so Jesus is only the Savior of those who believe. Just like most if not all Calvinists also believe.

Bociferous
March 13th, 2016, 04:48 PM
Christians are spiritual Israel.
Looks like you have your hands full with others responding to the thread so I'll back out and give you a little peace. I do want to go on record as noting that you were unable to solve the mystery without modifying what Paul actually said with popular doctrine. The 'spiritual Israel' idea was grafted into literalism to cement in the idea of Christianity as an exclusivist religion. (It is, but not in the sense the church teaches it today) Paul shatters this false exclusivism in Rom 11 and elsewhere.

Robert Pate
March 13th, 2016, 05:09 PM
Looks like you have your hands full with others responding to the thread so I'll back out and give you a little peace. I do want to go on record as noting that you were unable to solve the mystery without modifying what Paul actually said with popular doctrine. The 'spiritual Israel' idea was grafted into literalism to cement in the idea of Christianity as an exclusivist religion. (It is, but not in the sense the church teaches it today) Paul shatters this false exclusivism in Rom 11 and elsewhere.

No one will be saved that does not have faith in Christ and his Gospel. As far now, most of the Jews that I know of reject Christ and his Gospel. Perhaps this will change some day.

Robert Pate
March 13th, 2016, 05:11 PM
Right, so Jesus is only the Savior of those who believe. Just like most if not all Calvinists also believe.

No, you believe that God imposes salvation on some and damns the rest to hell.

Nanja
March 13th, 2016, 05:35 PM
He makes it possible for the whole world to be saved, all you have to do is believe.


The preaching of the Gospel has a twofold purpose, and always accomplishes the Perfect Will of God.

2 Cor. 2:14-16
14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. 15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: 16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

~~~~~

Brother Ducky
March 13th, 2016, 06:09 PM
No, you believe that God imposes salvation on some and damns the rest to hell.

So, regardless of the method, only some certain persons are actually saved. Right?

fishrovmen
March 13th, 2016, 08:10 PM
No, you believe that God imposes salvation on some and damns the rest to hell.

First of all, I NEVER said that, as usual, you just make stuff up. Second of all, I have now asked FOUR times if YOU, Robert Pate, believe (regardless of what you think anyone else believes)that Jesus is the Savior of every single person in the world. As I asked in another thread, can you handle a yes or no question without beating around the bush and deflecting? can you handle it Pate?

Samie
March 14th, 2016, 08:37 AM
You may be under construction, but I am complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.Then you have stopped growing, and in your thinking have attained unto the full stature of Christ. How unexpected from one who is supposed to be a humble follower of the Greatest Builder - the Carpenter from Galilee - Who humbled Himself and made Himself of no reputation.

Samie
March 14th, 2016, 08:41 AM
No one will be saved that does not have faith in Christ and his Gospel. As far now, most of the Jews that I know of reject Christ and his Gospel. Perhaps this will change some day.You are confused, Robert, sorry to say.

You at one time believed all died when Christ died. So how can people believe while yet dead since according to you they can only be made alive AFTER they believe?

Samie
March 14th, 2016, 08:48 AM
No one will be saved that does not respond to the Gospel. Everyone is born lost, but salvation has been provided for all.Then explain why there are babies in the new earth (Isa 11:6-9). Unable? Of course, because people are born saved, since we have died with Christ and were made alive when He resurrected. But only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life.

PureX
March 14th, 2016, 08:57 AM
The consequence of one's doctrinal beliefs depends on their doctrinal beliefs and the degree to which they act on them in the course of their lives. Our actions have consequences, both for ourselves, and for those we interact with. So that it is to these consequences that we should be looking to determine the value and truthfulness of our doctrines and beliefs.

Sadly, few religious Christians actually do this because they are being taught that God is a religious dogma, and that if they do not follow the dogma, unquestionably, then they are denying the existence and will of God.

So they follow that dogma, unquestionably, without regard for the consequences to themselves or others. And therefor regardless of the harm being done to themselves and others as a result.

Robert Pate
March 14th, 2016, 09:49 AM
Then you have stopped growing, and in your thinking have attained unto the full stature of Christ. How unexpected from one who is supposed to be a humble follower of the Greatest Builder - the Carpenter from Galilee - Who humbled Himself and made Himself of no reputation.

What have you attained to? Are you a better sinner now than when you first got saved?

In Jesus Christ I have been justified, sanctified and redeemed. God now sees me as perfect and complete In Christ, Colossians 2:10.

Robert Pate
March 14th, 2016, 10:15 AM
Then explain why there are babies in the new earth (Isa 11:6-9). Unable? Of course, because people are born saved, since we have died with Christ and were made alive when He resurrected. But only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life.

No one is born saved, Romans 5:12. We are all born after Adam, Psalm 51:5.

Robert Pate
March 14th, 2016, 10:23 AM
First of all, I NEVER said that, as usual, you just make stuff up. Second of all, I have now asked FOUR times if YOU, Robert Pate, believe (regardless of what you think anyone else believes)that Jesus is the Savior of every single person in the world. As I asked in another thread, can you handle a yes or no question without beating around the bush and deflecting? can you handle it Pate?

Jesus is every ones savior. But no one I saved until they receive him, John 1:12.

Robert Pate
March 14th, 2016, 10:26 AM
The preaching of the Gospel has a twofold purpose, and always accomplishes the Perfect Will of God.

2 Cor. 2:14-16
14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. 15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: 16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

~~~~~

Your Calvinist God is unjust and is not the God of the Bible.

Nanja
March 14th, 2016, 03:18 PM
Your Calvinist God is unjust and is not the God of the Bible.

You don't believe the scriptures 2 Tim. 3:16, so neither do you know the True God.

~~~~~

genuineoriginal
March 14th, 2016, 03:31 PM
Many think that they can believe what they want to believe about God and his Son Jesus Christ and that there are no consequences to what they believe.

There are consequences to not having the correct beliefs. Example, Jesus said, "I said therefore unto you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he you will die in your sins" John 8:24.

Jesus is telling us that if you do not believe that he is Lord or God you are lost.
Jesus was referring to Himself as the Messiah that God promised to send.

Deuteronomy 18:15
15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
But, you refuse to believe Him.

Robert Pate
March 14th, 2016, 04:43 PM
Jesus was referring to Himself as the Messiah that God promised to send.

Deuteronomy 18:15
15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;
But, you refuse to believe Him.

And just who do you think the Messiah is?

Robert Pate
March 14th, 2016, 04:46 PM
You don't believe the scriptures 2 Tim. 3:16, so neither do you know the True God.

~~~~~

It is not humanly possible to have saving faith in a God that condemns people to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam.

Samie
March 14th, 2016, 04:46 PM
No one is born saved, Romans 5:12. We are all born after Adam, Psalm 51:5.You didn't explain why there are babies in the new earth.

Rom 5:12 does not give any hint no one is born saved. In fact, just 6 verses later, apostle Paul said:Romans 5:18 KJV Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life

Robert Pate
March 14th, 2016, 04:50 PM
You didn't explain why there are babies in the new earth.

Rom 5:12 does not give any hint no one is born saved. In fact, just 6 verses later, apostle Paul said:Romans 5:18 KJV Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life

God offers the free of salvation to everyone, but nothing is yours if you don't receive it, John 1:12.

genuineoriginal
March 14th, 2016, 04:54 PM
And just who do you think the Messiah is?
The Greek word would be
Χριστός Christos, transliterated to Christ, so everywhere you see the word Christ, think Messiah.

John 1:41
41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
The Messiah is the Son of God.

John 20:31
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God as scripture clearly states or do you believe something else?

Nanja
March 14th, 2016, 05:04 PM
It is not humanly possible to have saving faith in a God that condemns people to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam.

If a person does not believe in the God of the scriptures, it is evidence that he is Lost 2 Cor. 4:3-4!

~~~~~

Samie
March 14th, 2016, 05:44 PM
God offers the free of salvation to everyone, but nothing is yours if you don't receive it, John 1:12.You still didn't explain why there are babies in the new earth.

You teach that we died with Christ when He died. So how can we receive the offer while dead?

patrick jane
March 14th, 2016, 07:27 PM
You still didn't explain why there are babies in the new earth.

You teach that we died with Christ when He died. So how can we receive the offer while dead?
Why don't you explain it Same E

Lazy afternoon
March 14th, 2016, 07:36 PM
Many think that they can believe what they want to believe about God and his Son Jesus Christ and that there are no consequences to what they believe.

There are consequences to not having the correct beliefs. Example, Jesus said, "I said therefore unto you, that you shall die in your sins: for if you believe not that I am he you will die in your sins" John 8:24.

Jesus is telling us that if you do not believe that he is Lord or God you are lost. Plain and simple. Many Calvinist on this Forum do not believe that Jesus is the savior and redeemer of the whole world, in spite of many scriptures that say that he is, such as, 1 John 2:2 or 1 John 4:14. Question is can you believe that Jesus is not the savior of the whole world and still be saved? The answer is no and here is why.

The Gospel is one complete and total message. It does not include fragments of beliefs or doctrines. Many belief that Jesus is the Son of God, but do not believe that he is their savior. That is a fragment of belief and will not save. To believe the Gospel is to believe all of the Gospel and not just some of it. Catholics believe that Jesus is the savior, but do not believe that he saves completely. They believe that it is necessary for them to participate in their salvation. They do not believe the Gospel. Sinners cannot save themselves no matter what they do.

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil, Colossians 2:15 and in doing so has reconciled us and the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:18, 19. This is basic Christian doctrine. To not believe this is to put yourself outside of the faith and under the judgment of God. One of the perquisites for salvation is that you must believe that Jesus is Lord or God. This is why Jesus said that if you don't believe that he is Lord or God you will die in your sins.

Christianity is a faith religion. We are called to believe things that cannot be believed by unbelievers. They are things of the Spirit that unbelievers do not have access to, 1 Corinthians 2:14. We spend a lot of time on the forum trying to convince these people that are void of the Spirit things of the Spirit.

You can have all your beliefs correct and still be unsaved.

Tell us what is required that makes you one of the saved?

LA

Samie
March 15th, 2016, 05:57 AM
Why don't you explain it Same EMatt 7:6 KJV

Robert Pate
March 15th, 2016, 06:58 AM
If a person does not believe in the God of the scriptures, it is evidence that he is Lost 2 Cor. 4:3-4!

~~~~~

There is no resemblance between the God of Calvinism and the God of the scriptures.

Robert Pate
March 15th, 2016, 07:00 AM
You can have all your beliefs correct and still be unsaved.

Tell us what is required that makes you one of the saved?

LA


Faith in Christ and his Gospel, plus nothing.

Nanja
March 15th, 2016, 03:46 PM
There is no resemblance between the God of Calvinism and the God of the scriptures.

The natural man, such as yourself, has no knowledge of the True God nor of His Word.

~~~~~

Robert Pate
March 15th, 2016, 04:33 PM
The natural man, such as yourself, has no knowledge of the True God nor of His Word.

~~~~~

Jesus can free you from Calvinism, John 8:32.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 15th, 2016, 04:44 PM
He makes it possible for the whole world to be saved, all you have to do is believe.

This is a "truthful statement." Christ died for a world of lost sinners. However, unless one hears the Gospel of their salvation and places ALL their faith in Christ as their Savior, they will not reap the benefits of His death and resurrection. Those who reject God's Grace, will be judged according to their "WORKS" and be cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity. One cannot earn their eternal life.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 15th, 2016, 04:47 PM
There is no resemblance between the God of Calvinism and the God of the scriptures.

Another truthful statement.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 15th, 2016, 04:51 PM
Be pre-warned folks, Nanja and B57 are "Ultra hyper-Calvinist fanatics" who display cult-like behavior. Listen to them at your own risk!

Nanja
March 15th, 2016, 05:09 PM
Jesus can free you from Calvinism, John 8:32.


You know nothing of the True Jesus Christ and what He has accomplished for those He laid down His Life for!

~~~~~

Nanja
March 15th, 2016, 05:12 PM
Be pre-warned folks, Nanja and B57 are "Ultra hyper-Calvinist fanatics" who display cult-like behavior. Listen to them at your own risk!


You are a false witness which God has prepared for destruction Rom. 9:22.

~~~~~

Robert Pate
March 16th, 2016, 01:11 PM
You are a false witness which God has prepared for destruction Rom. 9:22.

~~~~~

When many, many people, mostly people that have been Christians for many, many years tell you that what you believe is false you should listen to them.

Nanja
March 16th, 2016, 03:22 PM
When many, many people, mostly people that have been Christians for many, many years tell you that what you believe is false you should listen to them.



1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.


Titus 1:1-2
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

2 Tim. 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


Rom. 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.



God's Elect are led by the Spirit of Truth John 16:13 to be witnesses for Christ and His Gospel of Grace, and they are under God's Providence continually in every situation, every step of theirs Ps. 37:23 which He has predestined for them to encounter in this world.


Mat 11:25-27
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.


2 Tim. 3:12-14
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them


Luke 24:45
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

~~~~~

genuineoriginal
March 16th, 2016, 04:12 PM
Luke 24:45
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
It is a shame that Calvinists have had their understanding darkened about free will.

Ephesians 4:18
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Robert Pate
March 16th, 2016, 04:12 PM
1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.


Titus 1:1-2
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

2 Tim. 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


Rom. 8:33-34
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.



God's Elect are led by the Spirit of Truth John 16:13 to be witnesses for Christ and His Gospel of Grace, and they are under God's Providence continually in every situation, every step of theirs Ps. 37:23 which He has predestined for them to encounter in this world.


Mat 11:25-27
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.


2 Tim. 3:12-14
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them


Luke 24:45
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

~~~~~


All of the above scripture also applies to Christians who are not Calvinist.

You seem to think that you are some how special. The Pharisees also thought that they were God's special chosen ones. Matthew, chapter 23 shows that they were not.

Salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. Not just for you.

God is much bigger than John Calvin.

Nanja
March 16th, 2016, 05:08 PM
All of the above scripture also applies to Christians who are not Calvinist.

You seem to think that you are some how special. The Pharisees also thought that they were God's special chosen ones. Matthew, chapter 23 shows that they were not.

Salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9. Not just for you.

God is much bigger than John Calvin.


You are a preacher of a false gospel whom God has prepared for destruction Rom. 9:22; Jude 1:4.

~~~~~

Bright Raven
March 16th, 2016, 05:19 PM
You are a preacher of a false gospel whom God has prepared for destruction Rom. 9:22; Jude 1:4.

~~~~~

You need to wake up and smell the coffee. Pate is spot on. You are in error.

Nanja
March 16th, 2016, 05:36 PM
You need to wake up and smell the coffee. Pate is spot on. You are in error.

Lol, Pate isn't spot-on anything having to do with the Truth of scriptures, so thus neither are you! :Plain:

~~~~~

Ktoyou
March 16th, 2016, 06:46 PM
You are a false witness which God has prepared for destruction Rom. 9:22.

~~~~~

pate may have some blind spots due to his arrogance. you are totally lost. You are also a goofball.

Nanja
March 16th, 2016, 07:30 PM
pate may have some blind spots due to his arrogance. you are totally lost. You are also a goofball.



I don't think too much of you either! :)

~~~~~

Robert Pate
March 18th, 2016, 09:37 AM
I don't think too much of you either! :)

~~~~~

How many people on this Forum are at odds with you?

Do you think that the whole Christian community is going to hell?

Nanja
March 18th, 2016, 05:58 PM
How many people on this Forum are at odds with you?

Do you think that the whole Christian community is going to hell?


As many as are non-elect.

Mat. 25:32-33, 41
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

~~~~~

Robert Pate
March 18th, 2016, 06:54 PM
As many as are non-elect.

Mat. 25:32-33, 41
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

~~~~~

What is your personal testimony concerning your salvation? How and when were you saved?

Nanja
March 19th, 2016, 05:14 AM
What is your personal testimony concerning your salvation? How and when were you saved?


Already answered your question at least twice before, but you can't comprehend it because you're looking for a work or action that I did that validates my testimony, but you won't find any because Salvation was Given to me 2 Thes. 2:13 John 3:27; I received New Birth passively John 3:3-8 as do all Christ's Sheep. In God's appointed time His Spirit through Christ imparts Spiritual Life to His Sheep who were Justified by His Death for them John 10:11, 15. That's what entails the True Gospel of God's Grace!

T-- Total Depravity [spiritual inability of the natural man]
U-- Unconditional Election [God's Sovereign Election]
L-- Limited Atonement [Particular Redemption for Certain Persons]
I-- Irresistible Grace [Effectual Election]
P-- Preservation of the Saints [Sure Salvation for God's Elect Heb. 12:2]

~~~~~

Grosnick Marowbe
March 19th, 2016, 05:17 AM
T-- Total Depravity [spiritual inability of the natural man]
U-- Unconditional Election [God's Sovereign Election]
L-- Limited Atonement [Particular Redemption for Certain Persons]
I-- Irresistible Grace [Effectual Election]
P-- Preservation of the Saints [Sure Salvation for God's Elect Heb. 12:2]

~~~~~

All false doctrine!

Grosnick Marowbe
March 19th, 2016, 05:19 AM
What is your personal testimony concerning your salvation? How and when were you saved?

I highly doubt she's able to articulate that?

Grosnick Marowbe
March 19th, 2016, 05:22 AM
As many as are non-elect.

Mat. 25:32-33, 41
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

~~~~~

You and B57 seem to be "Misfits" here on TOL? You're a couple of "Ultra hyper-Calvinist fanatics." Even the run of the mill Calvinists avoid you two.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 19th, 2016, 05:25 AM
How many people on this Forum are at odds with you?

Do you think that the whole Christian community is going to hell?

She and B57 are the only "nutty type" Calvinists on TOL.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 19th, 2016, 05:28 AM
When many, many people, mostly people that have been Christians for many, many years tell you that what you believe is false you should listen to them.

She and B57 are "beyond brainwashed."

Grosnick Marowbe
March 19th, 2016, 05:29 AM
It is a shame that Calvinists have had their understanding darkened about free will.

Ephesians 4:18
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Good post.

Robert Pate
March 19th, 2016, 10:55 AM
Already answered your question at least twice before, but you can't comprehend it because you're looking for a work or action that I did that validates my testimony, but you won't find any because Salvation was Given to me 2 Thes. 2:13 John 3:27; I received New Birth passively John 3:3-8 as do all Christ's Sheep. In God's appointed time His Spirit through Christ imparts Spiritual Life to His Sheep who were Justified by His Death for them John 10:11, 15. That's what entails the True Gospel of God's Grace!

T-- Total Depravity [spiritual inability of the natural man]
U-- Unconditional Election [God's Sovereign Election]
L-- Limited Atonement [Particular Redemption for Certain Persons]
I-- Irresistible Grace [Effectual Election]
P-- Preservation of the Saints [Sure Salvation for God's Elect Heb. 12:2]

~~~~~


The only way that God imparts his Holy Spirit is through hearing and believing the Gospel, Galatians 3:2.

You can't just wake up one morning and decide that you are one of his elect and have his Spirit.

It doesn't work that way. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17. Which is the Gospel.

I don't believe that you have come to Christ that way.

Brother Ducky
March 19th, 2016, 02:14 PM
When many, many people, mostly people that have been Christians for many, many years tell you that what you believe is false you should listen to them.

And you think does not apply to some of your beliefs why?????????????

Brother Ducky
March 19th, 2016, 02:18 PM
It is a shame that Calvinists have had their understanding darkened about free will.

Ephesians 4:18
18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Willing to be taught. Do you have a Biblical anthropology that allows for the free-will acceptance of Christ, and that answers the Calvinistic Biblical anthropology?

Robert Pate
March 19th, 2016, 03:28 PM
And you think does not apply to some of your beliefs why?????????????

Have you not noticed all of my references to scripture?

Calvinism is one of the easiest false doctrines to refute because the bible does not support it.

genuineoriginal
March 20th, 2016, 08:32 AM
Willing to be taught. Do you have a Biblical anthropology that allows for the free-will acceptance of Christ, and that answers the Calvinistic Biblical anthropology?

Joshua 24:15
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Robert Pate
March 20th, 2016, 09:13 AM
Willing to be taught. Do you have a Biblical anthropology that allows for the free-will acceptance of Christ, and that answers the Calvinistic Biblical anthropology?

You are willing to be taught Calvinism.

You reject the Gospel and justification by faith.

Brother Ducky
March 20th, 2016, 01:12 PM
Joshua 24:15
15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

I suspect this is the best verse for claiming free-will.

But a couple of things. Are we sure it applies to more than national Israel, those who were already in some sort of relationship to God?

And if we look ahead a few verses, Say Joshua 24:16-22, the people do make a free-will acceptance/covenant. Read ahead further, say Judges and the Books of Samuel, and tell me how well this worked out for them.

And relate this verse to the Biblical anthropology of the innate evil of humans.

Brother Ducky
March 20th, 2016, 01:17 PM
You are willing to be taught Calvinism.

You reject the Gospel and justification by faith.

I know this will be a blow to your incessant anti-Calvinist polemics, but Calvinists do not reject the Gospel and/or justification of faith. This is true no matter how many times you indicate the opposite.

Nevertheless, I see that again you have failed to even attempt to make a Biblical case for a free-will anthropology. You would rather attack than discourse. Lie rather than reason. Patificate rather than discuss.

Totton Linnet
March 20th, 2016, 01:19 PM
Choosing is not freewill, the One who sets the options and outlines the consequences for each choice is the One with sovereign freewill.

They do not even have the freewill not to choose.

Freewill is when they can produce an option of their own and do it with no consequences

Brother Ducky
March 20th, 2016, 01:26 PM
Have you not noticed all of my references to scripture?

Calvinism is one of the easiest false doctrines to refute because the bible does not support it.

Why, yes, I have. I have also noticed when you change Scripture to make it say what you want, and not what it does say. I have you dismissed entire books of Scripture because it does not fit what you think it should say.

And I have noticed that there has been no wholesale exodus from the Calvinistic camp on the basis of your arguments.

Robert Pate
March 20th, 2016, 03:47 PM
I know this will be a blow to your incessant anti-Calvinist polemics, but Calvinists do not reject the Gospel and/or justification of faith. This is true no matter how many times you indicate the opposite.

Nevertheless, I see that again you have failed to even attempt to make a Biblical case for a free-will anthropology. You would rather attack than discourse. Lie rather than reason. Patificate rather than discuss.


Of course Calvinist reject the Gospel and justification by faith.

How can you believe the Gospel and reject the fact that Jesus is the savior of the world, 1 John 2:2. Or that he has provided salvation for everyone, Hebrews 2:9.

Robert Pate
March 20th, 2016, 03:54 PM
Of course Calvinist reject the Gospel and justification by faith.

How can you believe the Gospel and reject the fact that Jesus is the savior of the world, 1 John 2:2. Or that he has provided salvation for everyone, Hebrews 2:9.

I do not change scripture. Never have and never will.

Crucible
March 20th, 2016, 04:36 PM
How did I know this thread was about bashing Calvinism before going to it :think:

Oh yeah, that's right

Because Robert Pate made the thread!

Brother Ducky
March 20th, 2016, 05:55 PM
I do not change scripture. Never have and never will.

Your "translation" of Acts 13:48.

genuineoriginal
March 20th, 2016, 10:55 PM
Choosing is not freewill

Of course it is.

fishrovmen
March 21st, 2016, 03:20 AM
Your "translation" of Acts 13:48.

Yes. I have seen him rewrite that verse

Robert Pate
March 21st, 2016, 07:18 AM
Your "translation" of Acts 13:48.

You want to build a doctrine on one scripture that has a grammatical error in it?

Brother Ducky
March 21st, 2016, 02:15 PM
You want to build a doctrine on one scripture that has a grammatical error in it?

I would build no doctrine on one verse; and the doctrine of predestination is certainly not built on one verse.

But I would be interested in knowing about this grammatical error. Please enlighten me. Is the error in the Greek or in English?

Robert Pate
March 21st, 2016, 02:22 PM
I would build no doctrine on one verse; and the doctrine of predestination is certainly not built on one verse.

But I would be interested in knowing about this grammatical error. Please enlighten me. Is the error in the Greek or in English?

No one is saved before they hear the Gospel.

"So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17.

Your doctrine is unbiblical and is anti-Gospel.

On the day of Pentecost they heard the Gospel, they believed the Gospel and they received the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:41

Why is it you cannot receive the truth?

serpentdove
March 21st, 2016, 02:30 PM
..[U]nless one hears the Gospel of their salvation and places ALL their faith in Christ as their Savior, they will not reap the benefits of His death and resurrection.All you (e.g. heir glorydaz john w) can do is believe. That won't happen until God removes the veil from your eyes (2 Co 3:14, Joe 2:13). Your jesus :freak: doesn't save.

See:

Christ the Final Word (http://www.gospelinlife.com/christ-the-final-word-5403) by Timothy Keller

Related:

All you have to do is believe in Jesus".. Huh? (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?111865-quot-all-you-have-to-do-is-believe-in-Jesus-quot-Huh&p=4394361#post4394361)
"OSAS" people are not answering this question (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?112991-quot-OSAS-quot-people-are-not-answering-this-question&p=4455652#post4455652)
Lordship
(http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116690-quot-Lordship-Salvation-quot-perverting-the-gospel-of-Christ/page18)

serpentdove
March 21st, 2016, 02:31 PM
[John 8:24]

Death :dead:

If our belief is based on our works, then God owes us something. We are saved by grace through faith; therefore, we rightly give God all (Eph 2:8-9).

Brother Ducky
March 21st, 2016, 04:01 PM
No one is saved before they hear the Gospel.

"So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17.

Your doctrine is unbiblical and is anti-Gospel.

On the day of Pentecost they heard the Gospel, they believed the Gospel and they received the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:41

Why is it you cannot receive the truth?

OK. Where is this supposed grammatical error?

Also, I forgot to ask you. If a doctrine can not be built on a single verse, are you going to
1] more fully support your doctrine of re-imputation of sin or
2] abandon the silly doctrine or
3] just go about with your usual procedure of just continuing with practices you decry in others?

Grosnick Marowbe
March 21st, 2016, 04:05 PM
All you (e.g. heir glorydaz john w) can do is believe. That won't happen until God removes the veil from your eyes (2 Co 3:14, Joe 2:13). Your jesus :freak: doesn't save.

See:

Christ the Final Word (http://www.gospelinlife.com/christ-the-final-word-5403) by Timothy Keller

Related:

All you have to do is believe in Jesus".. Huh? (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?111865-quot-all-you-have-to-do-is-believe-in-Jesus-quot-Huh&p=4394361#post4394361)
"OSAS" people are not answering this question (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?112991-quot-OSAS-quot-people-are-not-answering-this-question&p=4455652#post4455652)
Lordship
(http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116690-quot-Lordship-Salvation-quot-perverting-the-gospel-of-Christ/page18)

Who is Timmy Keller? And, why should we listen to him? I never heard of him? There are literally copious amounts of writers and opinions. Ought we listen to this Timmy fella before we listen to the Bible? Please let me know? Do you recommend him that highly?

Grosnick Marowbe
March 21st, 2016, 04:12 PM
All you (e.g. heir glorydaz john w) can do is believe. That won't happen until God removes the veil from your eyes (2 Co 3:14, Joe 2:13). Your jesus :freak: doesn't save.

See:

Christ the Final Word (http://www.gospelinlife.com/christ-the-final-word-5403) by Timothy Keller

Related:

All you have to do is believe in Jesus".. Huh? (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?111865-quot-all-you-have-to-do-is-believe-in-Jesus-quot-Huh&p=4394361#post4394361)
"OSAS" people are not answering this question (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?112991-quot-OSAS-quot-people-are-not-answering-this-question&p=4455652#post4455652)
Lordship
(http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116690-quot-Lordship-Salvation-quot-perverting-the-gospel-of-Christ/page18)

Are you a Catholic?

Grosnick Marowbe
March 21st, 2016, 04:16 PM
All you (e.g. heir glorydaz john w) can do is believe. That won't happen until God removes the veil from your eyes (2 Co 3:14, Joe 2:13). Your jesus :freak: doesn't save.

See:

Christ the Final Word (http://www.gospelinlife.com/christ-the-final-word-5403) by Timothy Keller

Related:

All you have to do is believe in Jesus".. Huh? (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?111865-quot-all-you-have-to-do-is-believe-in-Jesus-quot-Huh&p=4394361#post4394361)
"OSAS" people are not answering this question (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?112991-quot-OSAS-quot-people-are-not-answering-this-question&p=4455652#post4455652)
Lordship
(http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116690-quot-Lordship-Salvation-quot-perverting-the-gospel-of-Christ/page18)

Are you the only one who "holds" all truth and are in a position to judge the beliefs of others? I've been looking for you over the past 65 years of my life on planet earth. Please let me know?

Grosnick Marowbe
March 21st, 2016, 04:20 PM
I suspect this is the best verse for claiming free-will.

But a couple of things. Are we sure it applies to more than national Israel, those who were already in some sort of relationship to God?

And if we look ahead a few verses, Say Joshua 24:16-22, the people do make a free-will acceptance/covenant. Read ahead further, say Judges and the Books of Samuel, and tell me how well this worked out for them.

And relate this verse to the Biblical anthropology of the innate evil of humans.

In my very astute opinion, Calvinism is "another gospel."

Robert Pate
March 21st, 2016, 04:20 PM
OK. Where is this supposed grammatical error?

Also, I forgot to ask you. If a doctrine can not be built on a single verse, are you going to
1] more fully support your doctrine of re-imputation of sin or
2] abandon the silly doctrine or
3] just go about with your usual procedure of just continuing with practices you decry in others?


If God imputes righteousness without works to believers, Romans 4:6. He can also impute sin without works to unbelievers, Romans 4:8.

serpentdove
March 21st, 2016, 04:37 PM
Who is Timmy Keller? :yawn: Tim Keller is a fine servant of the Lord (Eph 4:14).


...Ought we listen to this Timmy fella before we listen to the Bible?"
B4W6rcufVYg

serpentdove
March 21st, 2016, 04:40 PM
Are you a Catholic?

No. I reject Roman Catholicism. :olinger: Jud 11 :burnlib:

serpentdove
March 21st, 2016, 04:47 PM
Are you the only one who "holds" all truth and are in a position to judge the beliefs of others?

I'm smart (Ps 119:99 ESV). I make things go. :freak:

http://www.theviewscreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/samaritansnare212-300x229.jpg

Grosnick Marowbe
March 21st, 2016, 05:33 PM
:yawn: Tim Keller is a fine servant of the Lord (Eph 4:14).


B4W6rcufVYg

Have you ever heard of Homer Strut Caste?

Grosnick Marowbe
March 21st, 2016, 05:36 PM
I'm smart (Ps 119:99 ESV). I make things go. :freak:

http://www.theviewscreen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/samaritansnare212-300x229.jpg

I have difficulty in trusting people who "Toot their own Horn?" Somehow, I think their opinion of themselves is oftentimes amiss. Ya know what I mean? Probably not?

glorydaz
March 21st, 2016, 07:03 PM
All you (e.g. heir glorydaz john w) can do is believe. That won't happen until God removes the veil from your eyes (2 Co 3:14, Joe 2:13). Your jesus :freak: doesn't save.

See:

Christ the Final Word (http://www.gospelinlife.com/christ-the-final-word-5403) by Timothy Keller

Related:

All you have to do is believe in Jesus".. Huh? (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?111865-quot-all-you-have-to-do-is-believe-in-Jesus-quot-Huh&p=4394361#post4394361)
"OSAS" people are not answering this question (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?112991-quot-OSAS-quot-people-are-not-answering-this-question&p=4455652#post4455652)
Lordship
(http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116690-quot-Lordship-Salvation-quot-perverting-the-gospel-of-Christ/page18)

Looks to me like you should stop assuming you know what we believe. Obviously, you don't. :)

Brother Ducky
March 21st, 2016, 07:45 PM
If God imputes righteousness without works to believers, Romans 4:6. He can also impute sin without works to unbelievers, Romans 4:8.

Again, what is the supposed grammatical error?

Romans 4:8 does not state anything about the imputation of sin. And to paraphrase you, are you going to build a doctrine on the basis of one verse?

Totton Linnet
March 22nd, 2016, 05:56 AM
Of course it is.

How is it? do you create the options to be chosen? or do you enforce the consequences of each choice?

If you choose life that is God's will
If you choose death, dead men do not have freewill

Robert Pate
March 22nd, 2016, 07:55 AM
Again, what is the supposed grammatical error?

Romans 4:8 does not state anything about the imputation of sin. And to paraphrase you, are you going to build a doctrine on the basis of one verse?

"Romans 4:8 does not state anything about the imputation of sin" (Ducky)

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" Romans 4:8.

Some people have to learn things through experience. You are apparently one of them.

genuineoriginal
March 22nd, 2016, 10:43 AM
How is it? do you create the options to be chosen? or do you enforce the consequences of each choice?

If you choose life that is God's will
If you choose death, dead men do not have freewill
Here are two examples of free will in action:

Psalm 36:1-4
1 The transgression of the wicked saith within my heart, that there is no fear of God before his eyes.
2 For he flattereth himself in his own eyes, until his iniquity be found to be hateful.
3 The words of his mouth are iniquity and deceit: he hath left off to be wise, and to do good.
4 He deviseth mischief upon his bed; he setteth himself in a way that is not good; he abhorreth not evil.

Psalm 119:9-11
9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.
10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.
11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Brother Ducky
March 22nd, 2016, 11:23 AM
"Romans 4:8 does not state anything about the imputation of sin" (Ducky)

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" Romans 4:8.

Some people have to learn things through experience. You are apparently one of them.

Perhaps. The verse is talking about the non-imputation of sin. You might infer that there is imputation of sin from the verse, but it is not explicit in the verse.

So, two things.

1] What is the supposed grammatical error in Acts 13:48?

2] Are you going to more fully support your re-imputation doctrine? You have stated that 4 verses are insufficient to support a doctrine, so do you have at least four more to present?

Robert Pate
March 22nd, 2016, 12:00 PM
Perhaps. The verse is talking about the non-imputation of sin. You might infer that there is imputation of sin from the verse, but it is not explicit in the verse.

So, two things.

1] What is the supposed grammatical error in Acts 13:48?

2] Are you going to more fully support your re-imputation doctrine? You have stated that 4 verses are insufficient to support a doctrine, so do you have at least four more to present?

Everyone has been appointed to eternal life in Jesus Christ, not just some. If God only appointed some to eternal life and not all he would be unjust.

"That he by the grace of God should taste for everyone" Hebrews 2:9.

"Even so by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life" Romans 5:18.

"Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come into the knowledge of the truth" 1 Timothy 2:4.

You need to come into the knowledge of the truth.

Brother Ducky
March 22nd, 2016, 12:31 PM
Everyone has been appointed to eternal life in Jesus Christ, not just some. If God only appointed some to eternal life and not all he would be unjust.

"That he by the grace of God should taste for everyone" Hebrews 2:9.

"Even so by the righteousness of one THE FREE GIFT came upon ALL MEN unto justification of life" Romans 5:18.

"Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come into the knowledge of the truth" 1 Timothy 2:4.

You need to come into the knowledge of the truth.

I do not see any explanation or mere comment about the supposed grammatical error in Acts 13:48.

I do not see the re-imputation of sin in these verses. Please clarify.

Robert Pate
March 22nd, 2016, 04:46 PM
I do not see any explanation or mere comment about the supposed grammatical error in Acts 13:48.

I do not see the re-imputation of sin in these verses. Please clarify.

You can't see anything because you are spiritually blind.

Crucible
March 22nd, 2016, 05:31 PM
"Robert Pate and the Godfaraken Calvinists"

An exposition on how free will trumps God's Providence.

Brother Ducky
March 22nd, 2016, 09:07 PM
You can't see anything because you are spiritually blind.

Again, perhaps.

But again perhaps:
1] you did not mention the supposed grammatical error.
So how about it. Make the supposed error clear.

2] there is no mention or logical necessity of the Pateish doctrine of the re-imputation of sin.
Perhaps you see things that are not there.

Robert Pate
March 23rd, 2016, 11:12 AM
Again, perhaps.

But again perhaps:
1] you did not mention the supposed grammatical error.
So how about it. Make the supposed error clear.

2] there is no mention or logical necessity of the Pateish doctrine of the re-imputation of sin.
Perhaps you see things that are not there.


Everything is there. But you refuse to see it.

Brother Ducky
March 23rd, 2016, 12:59 PM
Everything is there. But you refuse to see it.

I think you are hallucinating.

What is the supposed grammatical error in Acts 13:48? Ask your wife if you are having trouble with the proper terms.

In the three verses you quote there is no mention of sin, much less the re-imputation of sin. I am considered, correctly enough, by some here to be not so bright. So make it simple enough for a dummy like me to understand where and how you see the re-imputation of sin in these verses. Any authorities you could quote here on the re-imputation of sin? I know you like going to the Bible alone, but sometimes others can help us along with our ideas.

fishrovmen
March 23rd, 2016, 01:11 PM
I think you are hallucinating.

What is the supposed grammatical error in Acts 13:48? Ask your wife if you are having trouble with the proper terms.

In the three verses you quote there is no mention of sin, much less the re-imputation of sin. I am considered, correctly enough, by some here to be not so bright. So make it simple enough for a dummy like me to understand where and how you see the re-imputation of sin in these verses. Any authorities you could quote here on the re-imputation of sin? I know you like going to the Bible alone, but sometimes others can help us along with our ideas.

About 7 posts prior, Pate tells us that Acts 13:48 doesnt fit his ideas of what makes God just. So for Pate, opinion trumps revealed truth. Sad.

Robert Pate
March 23rd, 2016, 04:43 PM
About 7 posts prior, Pate tells us that Acts 13:48 doesnt fit his ideas of what makes God just. So for Pate, opinion trumps revealed truth. Sad.

You have one scripture that appears to support Calvinism, Acts 13:48.

There is no other scripture that supports the idea that God appoints people to eternal life. You would like to eliminate Christ and his Gospel. The Bible does not support the idea that God appoints people to eternal life. Acts 13:48 is an error, it should read "For as many as believed were appointed to eternal life" then it would be compatible with dozens of other scriptures such as Acts 2:41 also Galatians 3:2.

We are saved and born again by hearing and believing the Gospel, not by being appointed to salvation by God.

Give up your anti-Christ doctrine and believe the Gospel.

Crucible
March 23rd, 2016, 05:06 PM
Any doctrine that treads on the immutability of God is false- one shouldn't have to even explain why. The big mistake; the folly of Catholicism, is that they did exactly that. They made the supreme providence of God frivolous with their doctrines, and Arminian Protestants do much the same.

Robert Pate
March 23rd, 2016, 07:34 PM
Any doctrine that treads on the immutability of God is false- one shouldn't have to even explain why. The big mistake; the folly of Catholicism, is that they did exactly that. They made the supreme providence of God frivolous with their doctrines, and Arminian Protestants do much the same.

All religions are in error.

The New Testament is about Jesus Christ and his Gospel that justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.

patrick jane
March 23rd, 2016, 08:56 PM
Any doctrine that treads on the immutability of God is false- one shouldn't have to even explain why. The big mistake; the folly of Catholicism, is that they did exactly that. They made the supreme providence of God frivolous with their doctrines, and Arminian Protestants do much the same.
Calvinists are the worst

Totton Linnet
March 24th, 2016, 04:29 AM
You have one scripture that appears to support Calvinism, Acts 13:48.

There is no other scripture that supports the idea that God appoints people to eternal life. You would like to eliminate Christ and his Gospel. The Bible does not support the idea that God appoints people to eternal life. Acts 13:48 is an error, it should read "For as many as believed were appointed to eternal life" then it would be compatible with dozens of other scriptures such as Acts 2:41 also Galatians 3:2.

We are saved and born again by hearing and believing the Gospel, not by being appointed to salvation by God.

Give up your anti-Christ doctrine and believe the Gospel.

Ah give up your rant

It says the truth, you are saying it should say what you want it to. Nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father draw him. IF Jesus be lifted up He will draw ALL men to Him....some unto salvation, others unto judgement.

God has set the cross for the salvation of those He always intended should be saved and to stumble His enemies.

You can whine all you like Pate but there will be no children of the devil in heaven....because of your foolish doctrine there are plenty children of the devil in the church....YOU are responsible for that and for all the damage they do.

Robert Pate
March 24th, 2016, 08:03 AM
Ah give up your rant

It says the truth, you are saying it should say what you want it to. Nobody can come to Jesus unless the Father draw him. IF Jesus be lifted up He will draw ALL men to Him....some unto salvation, others unto judgement.

God has set the cross for the salvation of those He always intended should be saved and to stumble His enemies.

You can whine all you like Pate but there will be no children of the devil in heaven....because of your foolish doctrine there are plenty children of the devil in the church....YOU are responsible for that and for all the damage they do.


If God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, John 3:16. Then it is not God's will that any should perish, 2 Peter 3:9. If there are some that are children of the devil, it is because they have chosen to be children of the devil. The devil does not have the power to create a people for himself. I am not responsible for anyone going to hell, no one is. Everyone has ears to hear and eyes to see. If anyone goes to hell it will be because they have rejected God's great free gift of salvation that has been provided by Jesus Christ.

Totton Linnet
March 24th, 2016, 02:45 PM
Jesus said to those who opposed Him they could not understand His speech because they were children of the devil

I did not say your theology was to blame for anybody going to hell, I said it is responsible for allowing entrance into the church the devil's children.

That is why the church is in such a mess of confusion.

Brother Ducky
March 24th, 2016, 07:35 PM
Calvinists are the worst

Worst what?

Robert Pate
March 25th, 2016, 12:32 PM
Worst what?

Probably the worst kind of sinners.

Calvinism is an insult to God and his Son Jesus Christ.

Brother Ducky
March 26th, 2016, 02:16 PM
Probably the worst kind of sinners.

Calvinism is an insult to God and his Son Jesus Christ.

Perhaps. And yet imagine our joy and gratitude when God saves us.

Oh, goodness no, silly Pate.

Brother Ducky
March 26th, 2016, 02:24 PM
You have one scripture that appears to support Calvinism, Acts 13:48.

There is no other scripture that supports the idea that God appoints people to eternal life. You would like to eliminate Christ and his Gospel. The Bible does not support the idea that God appoints people to eternal life. Acts 13:48 is an error, it should read "For as many as believed were appointed to eternal life" then it would be compatible with dozens of other scriptures such as Acts 2:41 also Galatians 3:2.

We are saved and born again by hearing and believing the Gospel, not by being appointed to salvation by God.

Give up your anti-Christ doctrine and believe the Gospel.

OK. So the supposed grammatical error really is your pateification on how the verse should read???? No textual reasons? No support from real translations? Just your opinion? Interesting.

There is lots of support for Calvinism. The only reason that Acts 13:48 is so often brought up is that you so often insist that not one verse says that anyone is predestined for heaven or hell. The verse absolutely proves you wrong. Not that it has stopped you from your rants.

Epoisses
March 26th, 2016, 05:52 PM
Jesus said to those who opposed Him they could not understand His speech because they were children of the devil

I did not say your theology was to blame for anybody going to hell, I said it is responsible for allowing entrance into the church the devil's children.

That is why the church is in such a mess of confusion.

Ah, the warm love of the Calvinist god who creates the lost from the foundation of the world. John Calvin was a heretic who took grace to such an extreme that he made God himself the author of sin. Arminianism is the blue collar false gospel for the legalists and Calvinism is the white collar false gospel for the intellectual idiots. Righteousness by faith is the biblical understanding in the middle. Faith is the one requirement in the bible for being saved and this same faith is also spoke of as a gift. Faith is a requirement and a gift to focus on one to the exclusion of the other leads to the ditch on the right(Arminian) or the ditch on the left(Calvin).

Crucible
March 26th, 2016, 06:05 PM
Calvinists are the worst

..because they reveal that other doctrines do not suffice God's sovereignty :idunno:

Epoisses
March 26th, 2016, 06:08 PM
..because they reveal that other doctrines do not suffice God's sovereignty :idunno:

Sin is a violation of God's sovereignty. To say he willed it to happen is indefensible.

Crucible
March 26th, 2016, 07:35 PM
Sin is a violation of God's sovereignty. To say he willed it to happen is indefensible.

Cool story


Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

You believe that God makes mistakes and therefore fallible, and that is what is indefensible- trading God's sovereignty for what suits your desire of free will :rolleyes:

Epoisses
March 26th, 2016, 08:04 PM
Cool story


Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

You believe that God makes mistakes and therefore fallible, and that is what is indefensible- trading God's sovereignty for what suits your desire of free will :rolleyes:

I never said God makes mistakes, fanboy. God created Lucifer(Satan) perfect until iniquity was found in him. God created Adam and Eve perfect until they ate from the forbidden fruit. Everything God created was perfect. Sin is a violation of his Divine will not something he willed into existence. Only a total incompetent would charge the Almighty with creating sin.

Crucible
March 26th, 2016, 08:11 PM
I never said God makes mistakes, fanboy. God created Lucifer(Satan) perfect until iniquity was found in him. God created Adam and Eve perfect until they ate from the forbidden fruit. Everything God created was perfect. Sin is a violation of his Divine will not something he willed into existence. Only a total incompetent would charge the Almighty with creating sin.

You're all bang and no buck. Come back when you have something besides a buch of hot air :wave2:

Epoisses
March 26th, 2016, 08:24 PM
You're all bang and no buck. Come back when you have something besides a buch of hot air :wave2:

Yea, bow out now before it gets ugly.

The Clavinist will quote Isa. 45:7 but never 1John 1:5

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

God created Lucifer(Satan) and Lucifer(Satan) eventually sinned against his creator so who is the sin chargeable to - the creator or the created? Well seeing that Satan is headed for the lake of fire some day it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.

Crucible
March 26th, 2016, 08:52 PM
Yea, bow out now before it gets ugly.


It's not going to get ugly because you are not producing anything interesting. It's small beans.
Reformed theology is well above your apparent shallow interpretation and prejudice of Calvinism.

Epoisses
March 26th, 2016, 08:58 PM
It's not going to get ugly because you are not producing anything interesting. It's small beans.
Reformed theology is well above your apparent shallow interpretation and prejudice of Calvinism.

I don't have a problem with moderate Calvinists it's the hypers and their God is the author of sin doctrine I despise.

Totton Linnet
March 27th, 2016, 05:03 AM
Ah, the warm love of the Calvinist god who creates the lost from the foundation of the world. John Calvin was a heretic who took grace to such an extreme that he made God himself the author of sin. Arminianism is the blue collar false gospel for the legalists and Calvinism is the white collar false gospel for the intellectual idiots. Righteousness by faith is the biblical understanding in the middle. Faith is the one requirement in the bible for being saved and this same faith is also spoke of as a gift. Faith is a requirement and a gift to focus on one to the exclusion of the other leads to the ditch on the right(Arminian) or the ditch on the left(Calvin).

Presumption is another wide ditch to beware of. I am not Calvinist, I read nowhere in scripture that God created the lost from the foundation of the world, I DO read that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

The real trick is not to try to navigate between Arminius and Calvin but to believe what the bible says


..and not be a snotty nose

It was Christ who said they were of their father devil, He is a good authority. In another place he explains clearly that God sowed wheat in His field who were sons of the kingdom, and while men slept the devil came and sowed tares.

The church is still bleary eyed with sleep and cain't tell the difference between wheat and tares and who is responsible for each. "Oh" they say "no but we must love all equally, if we love hard enough the tares will anon turn into wheat, the goats will become sheep and vipers doves"

Wisdom would tell them that if an enemy hath done this then he has done it for a purpose, that is to destroy the wheat field, the kingdom.

God predestined salvation see, He did not predestine sin though He foreknew it.

...and the tares, are not in the world but right here in the church

Epoisses
March 27th, 2016, 02:10 PM
Presumption is another wide ditch to beware of. I am not Calvinist, I read nowhere in scripture that God created the lost from the foundation of the world, I DO read that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

The real trick is not to try to navigate between Arminius and Calvin but to believe what the bible says


..and not be a snotty nose

It was Christ who said they were of their father devil, He is a good authority. In another place he explains clearly that God sowed wheat in His field who were sons of the kingdom, and while men slept the devil came and sowed tares.

The church is still bleary eyed with sleep and cain't tell the difference between wheat and tares and who is responsible for each. "Oh" they say "no but we must love all equally, if we love hard enough the tares will anon turn into wheat, the goats will become sheep and vipers doves"

Wisdom would tell them that if an enemy hath done this then he has done it for a purpose, that is to destroy the wheat field, the kingdom.

God predestined salvation see, He did not predestine sin though He foreknew it.

...and the tares, are not in the world but right here in the church

I agree with this, sista girl!

Robert Pate
March 30th, 2016, 05:03 PM
I don't have a problem with moderate Calvinists it's the hypers and their God is the author of sin doctrine I despise.

I have a problem with all of it. It is a false doctrine. No one has been predestinated, except Jesus Christ.

Epoisses
March 30th, 2016, 11:54 PM
I have a problem with all of it. It is a false doctrine. No one has been predestinated, except Jesus Christ.

Yea, I was trying to be nice. Calvinism is gospel poison.

Robert Pate
April 1st, 2016, 07:58 AM
Yea, I was trying to be nice. Calvinism is gospel poison.

When it comes to false doctrine and unbelief we are not afforded the luxury of being mister nice guy.

Refute them and refute them sharply. They are enemies of the cross.

fishrovmen
March 8th, 2018, 03:35 PM
When many, many people, mostly people that have been Christians for many, many years tell you that what you believe is false you should listen to them.

How ironic. Why don't you take your own advice?

Robert Pate
March 8th, 2018, 03:55 PM
How ironic. Why don't you take your own advice?

What is this? You dig up a post that was made 2 years ago to say that? I think that you need help.

fishrovmen
March 8th, 2018, 04:03 PM
What is this? You dig up a post that was made 2 years ago to say that? I think that you need help.

Actually, I was researching all the many contradictions that you have posted over the years when I came across this.

Robert Pate
March 8th, 2018, 04:11 PM
Actually, I was researching all the many contradictions that you have posted over the years when I came across this.

Which ones?

fishrovmen
March 8th, 2018, 04:15 PM
Which ones?

:rotfl:

fishrovmen
March 9th, 2018, 05:51 AM
Which ones?

Just to start the long list is your theory of imputation of sins in the judgment.
You claim that Jesus has atoned for every sin of every person in the world, yet you claim that in the judgment God will impute sins back to unbelievers, using Romans 4:8 as your "proof" even though that scripture passage is about the forgiveness of sins, not the "imputation" of sins.
I had asked you many times how sins that were already forgiven can be charged to someones account?
Either they were NOT ALL atoned for, or your blind god changed its mind, or the sins were only temporarily forgiven. What other option is there?
And I also asked you how your god that sees everything "in Christ", will know whose sins to impute back to them if this god can't see who is an unbeliever?
You also stated in another thread, or two, or twenty that this god will not judge sins in the judgment; so I asked why the imputation of previously forgiven sins then? what's the point?
You never satisfactorily answered these questions.

Robert Pate
March 9th, 2018, 09:23 AM
Just to start the long list is your theory of imputation of sins in the judgment.
You claim that Jesus has atoned for every sin of every person in the world, yet you claim that in the judgment God will impute sins back to unbelievers, using Romans 4:8 as your "proof" even though that scripture passage is about the forgiveness of sins, not the "imputation" of sins.
I had asked you many times how sins that were already forgiven can be charged to someones account?
Either they were NOT ALL atoned for, or your blind god changed its mind, or the sins were only temporarily forgiven. What other option is there?
And I also asked you how your god that sees everything "in Christ", will know whose sins to impute back to them if this god can't see who is an unbeliever?
You also stated in another thread, or two, or twenty that this god will not judge sins in the judgment; so I asked why the imputation of previously forgiven sins then? what's the point?
You never satisfactorily answered these questions.


Your problem is that you are not a Christian, therefore you will not understand spiritual things.

For now God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20. God is at peace with the world because he sees ALL THINGS in Christ. Jesus has reconciled the whole world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. This is the age of faith and grace.

However, when Jesus returns there will be a judgment of the whole world and everyone that has lived upon the earth. All wrongs will be made right and all rights will be rewarded. If you die outside of Christ you will be condemned.

God will impute sin to those that have died in their sins and he will impute the righteousness of Christ to those that have died in Christ.

Ask Mr. Religion
March 9th, 2018, 09:49 AM
Your problem is that you are not a Christian, therefore you will not understand spiritual things.


Nice tactic, Robert. Whenever a professing believer takes your oddities to task, you dismiss them with the charge above. We all know you have God's ear and He let's you know all about His secret will concerning those He has or will bring into the Kingdom. :AMR1:

AMR

fishrovmen
March 9th, 2018, 10:19 AM
he will impute the righteousness of Christ to those that have died in Christ.

So we don't have the righteousness of Christ until we "die"?

Zeke
March 9th, 2018, 11:28 AM
The Greek word would be
Χριστός Christos, transliterated to Christ, so everywhere you see the word Christ, think Messiah.

John 1:41
41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
The Messiah is the Son of God.

John 20:31
31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God as scripture clearly states or do you believe something else?

You don't know life by observing a corpse, or dark sayings Psalms 78:2, Proverbs 1:6, Gal 4:24, that hide their spiritual pearls in the dead letters 2Cor 3:6, knowing/experience is through revelation Gal 1:12, you may believe what is wrote but people believe lots of things John 5:39, they may change their mind about, though generational indoctrination is a factor to keeping the herd believing, many are pretending they still do when the heart no longer buys the creed of the temples made with hands that promote flesh and blood sacrifice for a spiritual one, Psalms 40:6, Revelation 11:8. Experience, the leveling field that no theological schooling, belief, or wisdom can understand beyond the dead letters surface meaning, without an encounter with perfect love, creeds, doctrine, labels etc..are just institutionalized beliefs based on exoteric religious observation, monkey see monkey do Luke 17:20-21, Matt 23:13 no pagan human sacrifice need apply which is a spirit event portrayed not history Gal 3:1-5 seeing the temple and kingdom is in man Acts 17:24, 1Cor 3:16, unless belief is the god of elemental doctrines is still on the throne Hebrews 6:1-5, 2Cor 5:16.

Robert Pate
March 9th, 2018, 11:44 AM
So we don't have the righteousness of Christ until we "die"?

You won't have the righteousness of Christ until you are resurrected.

The righteousness of Christ is to our account, but we don't have it yet.

Right now we are called to live our lives before God as sinners.

Robert Pate
March 9th, 2018, 11:49 AM
Nice tactic, Robert. Whenever a professing believer takes your oddities to task, you dismiss them with the charge above. We all know you have God's ear and He let's you know all about His secret will concerning those He has or will bring into the Kingdom. :AMR1:

AMR

You don't understand spiritual things either. If you did you would not be a Calvinist.

genuineoriginal
March 9th, 2018, 12:43 PM
You don't know life by observing a corpse, or dark sayings Psalms 78:2, Proverbs 1:6, Gal 4:24, that hide their spiritual pearls in the dead letters 2Cor 3:6, knowing/experience is through revelation Gal 1:12, you may believe what is wrote but people believe lots of things John 5:39, they may change their mind about, though generational indoctrination is a factor to keeping the herd believing, many are pretending they still do when the heart no longer buys the creed of the temples made with hands that promote flesh and blood sacrifice for a spiritual one, Psalms 40:6, Revelation 11:8. Experience, the leveling field that no theological schooling, belief, or wisdom can understand beyond the dead letters surface meaning, without an encounter with perfect love, creeds, doctrine, labels etc..are just institutionalized beliefs based on exoteric religious observation, monkey see monkey do Luke 17:20-21, Matt 23:13 no pagan human sacrifice need apply which is a spirit event portrayed not history Gal 3:1-5 seeing the temple and kingdom is in man Acts 17:24, 1Cor 3:16, unless belief is the god of elemental doctrines is still on the throne Hebrews 6:1-5, 2Cor 5:16.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make here, but it seems like you are saying that the mainstream denominations are popular with people that don't want to deal with thinking about their faith.

genuineoriginal
March 9th, 2018, 12:44 PM
You won't have the righteousness of Christ until you are resurrected.

The righteousness of Christ is to our account, but we don't have it yet.

Right now we are called to live our lives before God as sinners.

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the righteousness of Christ has nothing to do with how we are to live our life until He comes.

Zeke
March 9th, 2018, 01:40 PM
I am not sure what point you are trying to make here, but it seems like you are saying that the mainstream denominations are popular with people that don't want to deal with thinking about their faith.

The main point is revelation/encounter with the spirit that gathers into one spiritual knowing a symbiotic relationship with the brotherhood of man, verses, believe/belief in the spirit that divides into many separatist beliefs with a symbiotic relationship with the worlds perverted brotherhood of religious dogmas.

fishrovmen
March 9th, 2018, 01:43 PM
You won't have the righteousness of Christ until you are resurrected.

The righteousness of Christ is to our account, but we don't have it yet.

Right now we are called to live our lives before God as sinners.

Well if Christ's righteousness comes through faith (Romans 3:22, Philippians 3:9) and you say you don't have His righteousness yet, then that makes you a self proclaimed unbeliever.

fishrovmen
March 9th, 2018, 01:51 PM
Right now we are called to live our lives before God as sinners.

Another contradiction of yours to add to the long list.
You proclaim that God sees ALL THINGS in Christ as perfect and complete, yet He calls us to live as sinners?
Where do you see a calling to live as sinners in the scriptures?
2 Timothy 1:9

Robert Pate
March 9th, 2018, 05:04 PM
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that the righteousness of Christ has nothing to do with how we are to live our life until He comes.

We only have the first fruits or the down payment of the Holy Spirit, Romans 8:23. Paul lived his life before God as a sinner, 1 Timothy 1:15.

Robert Pate
March 9th, 2018, 05:08 PM
Another contradiction of yours to add to the long list.
You proclaim that God sees ALL THINGS in Christ as perfect and complete, yet He calls us to live as sinners?
Where do you see a calling to live as sinners in the scriptures?
2 Timothy 1:9

Do you think that you are righteous?

Paul said, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10. Because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23.

Robert Pate
March 9th, 2018, 05:12 PM
Well if Christ's righteousness comes through faith (Romans 3:22, Philippians 3:9) and you say you don't have His righteousness yet, then that makes you a self proclaimed unbeliever.

The righteousness of Christ is to our account. We don't have it yet. It will become a reality when we are resurrected.

fishrovmen
March 9th, 2018, 07:46 PM
Do you think that you are righteous?

Paul said, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10. Because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23.

Do you think that you are "perfect and complete" "in Christ" by your own righteousness?
I am righteous, being declared so by God through faith in Christ just as He told us through the writings of Paul.
If you don't have Christ's righteousness then you still are counting on your own to commend yourself to God.
I can now understand why you would prefer the god you made up, rather than the One who has revealed Himself as the One whose eyes are on the righteous and whose ears are open to their prayers.

glorydaz
March 9th, 2018, 11:35 PM
Right now we are called to live our lives before God as sinners.


Is that why Paul refers to believers as saints? Ephesians 1:1


Seriously, Robert.... do you stop and consider what you're saying there? What of the new creatures...all things are new? We are more than conquerors..... ????????


Romans 8:33-37 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

glorydaz
March 9th, 2018, 11:42 PM
The righteousness of Christ is to our account. We don't have it yet. It will become a reality when we are resurrected.

Believe unto righteousness.....have attainted to righteousness.



Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

glorydaz
March 9th, 2018, 11:53 PM
Do you think that you are righteous?

Paul said, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10. Because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23.

Context is everything. None righteous is speaking of unbelievers. "None righteous" and in the same text, "God is in the generation of the righteous". :think:


Psalm 14:1-7
1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord. 5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. 6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the Lord is his refuge. 7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the Lord bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

fishrovmen
March 10th, 2018, 05:47 AM
You won't have the righteousness of Christ until you are resurrected.

The righteousness of Christ is to our account, but we don't have it yet.

Right now we are called to live our lives before God as sinners.

You need to read Romans chapter 6 slowly and carefully. You will find there that believers are dead to sin and alive to God. We are not slaves of lawlessness, but of righteousness
This should answer your ideas about living without laws and rules, God not seeing us and being called to live as sinners.
But most importantly by far, the first step is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ that righteousness might be imputed to you. Romans 4:24

fishrovmen
March 10th, 2018, 08:11 AM
Robert,
I think I know where your misunderstanding about righteousness is coming from.
In Galatians 5:5, Paul writes to the churches of Galatia "For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
It would seem that Paul is saying that we are waiting to be declared righteous as we live in this world.
I believe that what Paul is saying here is that there were some in these churches who were led astray and sought by circumcision (the law) to be justified, possibly thinking that this would make them more approved by God. But Paul is explaining that righteousness comes by faith, not the law (Galatians 2:16,21).
In chapter 3, Paul shows how the Spirit is also received by faith, but we know from several scriptures that we only have a down payment of the Spirit.
So I believe that in Galatians 5:5, Paul is showing that we already have Christ's righteousness by faith, yet we long for the fulness and completion of not only His righteousness, but also the fulness of His Spirit, the redemption of our bodies, the fulness of glory etc. (Romans 8:18-25).
Since there are many scripture verses that show that righteousness is by faith, then when we come to faith, we must have Christ's righteousness immediately, else we are still counting on our own righteousness and likewise still in bondage to the law. There is no other option.

jamie
March 10th, 2018, 09:28 AM
However, when Jesus returns there will be a judgment of the whole world and everyone that has lived upon the earth. All wrongs will be made right and all rights will be rewarded. If you die outside of Christ you will be condemned.

God will impute sin to those that have died in their sins and he will impute the righteousness of Christ to those that have died in Christ.


How wrong can you get?

"For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son" (John 5:22)

If the Father judges no one why would he impute sin?

Will Christ judge the world at his return?

"He who rejects Me and does not receive My words has that which judges him the word that I have spoken will judge him in the Last Day." (John 12:48)

So when is the Last Day?

"On the Last Day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, 'If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.'" (John 7:37)

The Last Day is the primary time of salvation.

jamie
March 10th, 2018, 09:37 AM
You won't have the righteousness of Christ until you are resurrected.


"Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous." (1 John 3:7)

Robert, are you trying to deceive people?

Robert Pate
March 10th, 2018, 09:40 AM
You need to read Romans chapter 6 slowly and carefully. You will find there that believers are dead to sin and alive to God. We are not slaves of lawlessness, but of righteousness
This should answer your ideas about living without laws and rules, God not seeing us and being called to live as sinners.
But most importantly by far, the first step is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ that righteousness might be imputed to you. Romans 4:24

What we know and believe does not change the fact that our righteousness falls short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23.

As long as we are on this earth in these Adamic bodies we are sinners. The salvation that God has provided for us has been accomplished totally and completely out side of us in the person of Jesus Christ.

Everything becomes a realty in the resurrection. In the mean time do the best that you can, Romans 8:22-26.

Robert Pate
March 10th, 2018, 09:42 AM
"Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous." (1 John 3:7)

Robert, are you trying to deceive people?

You may be one of the worst kinds of sinners. One that thinks that he has no sin, 1 John 1:8.

Robert Pate
March 10th, 2018, 09:45 AM
How wrong can you get?

"For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son" (John 5:22)

If the Father judges no one why would he impute sin?

Will Christ judge the world at his return?

"He who rejects Me and does not receive My words has that which judges him — the word that I have spoken will judge him in the Last Day." (John 12:48)

So when is the Last Day?

"On the Last Day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, 'If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.'" (John 7:37)

The Last Day is the primary time of salvation.

The last day is the Judgment. In the judgment you will either be found in Christ or you will be found in your sins and condemned.

Robert Pate
March 10th, 2018, 09:49 AM
Robert,
I think I know where your misunderstanding about righteousness is coming from.
In Galatians 5:5, Paul writes to the churches of Galatia "For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
It would seem that Paul is saying that we are waiting to be declared righteous as we live in this world.
I believe that what Paul is saying here is that there were some in these churches who were led astray and sought by circumcision (the law) to be justified, possibly thinking that this would make them more approved by God. But Paul is explaining that righteousness comes by faith, not the law (Galatians 2:16,21).
In chapter 3, Paul shows how the Spirit is also received by faith, but we know from several scriptures that we only have a down payment of the Spirit.
So I believe that in Galatians 5:5, Paul is showing that we already have Christ's righteousness by faith, yet we long for the fulness and completion of not only His righteousness, but also the fulness of His Spirit, the redemption of our bodies, the fulness of glory etc. (Romans 8:18-25).
Since there are many scripture verses that show that righteousness is by faith, then when we come to faith, we must have Christ's righteousness immediately, else we are still counting on our own righteousness and likewise still in bondage to the law. There is no other option.


The righteousness of Christ is to our account, we don't have it yet. What we have now is the righteousness of man, not the righteousness of Christ.

Paul confessed that he was a sinner, 1 Timothy 1:15 also Romans 7:13-25.

fishrovmen
March 10th, 2018, 10:54 AM
What we have now is the righteousness of man, not the righteousness of Christ.
No, not WE, but YOU. I and all other believers have the righteousness of Christ through faith in Him, not "mans righteousness" that "does the best that it can" to commend itself to God.
Paul doesn't beseech believers to live your best life now as sinners before God, but rather by the mercies of God to present their bodies a living sacrifice to God, holy and acceptable, not profane and unacceptable (Romans 12:1-2).

jamie
March 10th, 2018, 11:09 AM
The last day is the Judgment. In the judgment you will either be found in Christ or you will be found in your sins and condemned.


That's the exact opposite of what Jesus said.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life." (Revelation 20:12)

"And they were judged, each one according to his works." (Revelation 20:13)

Of course salvation is by grace, position is by works.

jamie
March 10th, 2018, 11:16 AM
You may be one of the worst kinds of sinners. One that thinks that he has no sin, 1 John 1:8.


My sins have been charged to Christ. They are not mine anymore.

Take it up with big brother.

fishrovmen
March 10th, 2018, 12:11 PM
What we know and believe does not change the fact that our righteousness falls short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23.

As long as we are on this earth in these Adamic bodies we are sinners.

No Robert, we are not "sinners", believers are dead to sin just as Glorydaz tried to explain.
You claim that God can't see us (so we are dead to God) and that we are sinners (alive to sin) but Romans 6 says the exact opposite!
Read the chapter slower, study the words, think about it.

fishrovmen
March 10th, 2018, 12:34 PM
Paul confessed that he was a sinner, 1 Timothy 1:15 also Romans 7:13-25.

Yes, Paul was the principal, the first in a pattern of God's patience and mercy to show how Christ came into the world to save the self righteous, the boasters in their law keeping and heritage and knowledge, the church persecutors, the zealous in ignorance. You can read all about it in Galatians chapters 1 and 2.
BUT,you need to do what he did and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ that you too might be justified by faith and not by the works of the law (Galatians 2:15-16)

Robert Pate
March 10th, 2018, 05:25 PM
Yes, Paul was the principal, the first in a pattern of God's patience and mercy to show how Christ came into the world to save the self righteous, the boasters in their law keeping and heritage and knowledge, the church persecutors, the zealous in ignorance. You can read all about it in Galatians chapters 1 and 2.
BUT,you need to do what he did and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ that you too might be justified by faith and not by the works of the law (Galatians 2:15-16)

Because you don't understand the Gospel and justification by faith you don't have the truth.

Salvation is totally and completely outside of us. This is how God justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5. All that Jesus is and all that Jesus did was for our justification and our salvation, We are complete only in him, Colossians 2:10.

You need to scrap your religion and trust in Christ alone.

Robert Pate
March 10th, 2018, 05:30 PM
That's the exact opposite of what Jesus said.

"And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life." (Revelation 20:12)

"And they were judged, each one according to his works." (Revelation 20:13)

Of course salvation is by grace, position is by works.

Works count for nothing. The only thing that God acknowledges in the New Testament is faith.

The only works that God accepts is the work of Christ.

fishrovmen
March 10th, 2018, 05:55 PM
Salvation is totally and completely outside of us.

I never said it wasn't. Why is it that you consistently make up stuff that no one ever told you?
You are right that I don't understand the "Gospel",because you are constantly using biblical words such as "Gospel" but you have your own definitions and ideas that are not compatible with the scriptures; that is why I ask a lot of questions that you never seem to answer.
The majority of your answers to anyone who challenges your bizarre, confusing, unorthodox made up doctrines is even more made up nonsensical opinions with no proven basis.
I have challenged you in the past to take a poll to see who actually agrees with your supposed "clear" teachings, but you refuse.
Gee, I wonder why?

jamie
March 10th, 2018, 06:11 PM
Works count for nothing.


Have you ever read Jesus' warnings to the seven churches?

Jesus warned the church at Ephesus, "I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not and have found them liars." (Revelation 2:2)

fishrovmen
March 11th, 2018, 06:52 AM
We all know you have God's ear

And His eyes too. :crackup:

Robert Pate
March 11th, 2018, 09:19 AM
I never said it wasn't. Why is it that you consistently make up stuff that no one ever told you?
You are right that I don't understand the "Gospel",because you are constantly using biblical words such as "Gospel" but you have your own definitions and ideas that are not compatible with the scriptures; that is why I ask a lot of questions that you never seem to answer.
The majority of your answers to anyone who challenges your bizarre, confusing, unorthodox made up doctrines is even more made up nonsensical opinions with no proven basis.
I have challenged you in the past to take a poll to see who actually agrees with your supposed "clear" teachings, but you refuse.
Gee, I wonder why?


"Few there be that find it" Matthew 7:14. You can't find it because you don't seek it.

I don't measure success by my popularity as some do. Only religious people do that.

Robert Pate
March 11th, 2018, 09:23 AM
Have you ever read Jesus' warnings to the seven churches?

Jesus warned the church at Ephesus, "I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not and have found them liars." (Revelation 2:2)

All good works evolve from faith. "Without faith it is impossible to please him" Hebrews 11:6.

jamie
March 11th, 2018, 09:57 AM
All good works evolve from faith. "Without faith it is impossible to please him" Hebrews 11:6.


Yes, Paul had faith and did good works. Why do you keep claiming otherwise?

Robert Pate
March 12th, 2018, 08:24 AM
Yes, Paul had faith and did good works. Why do you keep claiming otherwise?

Paul did good works because he was indwelt with the Holy Spirit and he had faith, Ephesians 2:10.

jamie
March 12th, 2018, 10:57 AM
Paul did good works because he was indwelt with the Holy Spirit and he had faith, Ephesians 2:10.


Ya think?

Robert Pate
March 12th, 2018, 03:04 PM
Ya think?

You accused me of teaching otherwise.

The whole Christian life is of God, Ephesians 2:10. There is nothing to boast about, Ephesians 2:9.

jamie
March 12th, 2018, 05:08 PM
You accused me of teaching otherwise.


Yes, I have pointed out several times that Paul's scenario in Romans 7:13-20 is illustrative.

It's an allegory with Romans 8.

And yet you keep quoting Romans 7 and applying it to Paul. Why?

Robert Pate
March 17th, 2018, 12:51 PM
Yes, I have pointed out several times that Paul's scenario in Romans 7:13-20 is illustrative.

It's an allegory with Romans 8.

And yet you keep quoting Romans 7 and applying it to Paul. Why?


Paul wrote Romans 7 and applied it to himself. Romans 7 is about Paul's struggle with sin. All that are indwelt with the Holy Spirit will have this struggle with sin.

glorydaz
March 17th, 2018, 01:19 PM
Paul wrote Romans 7 and applied it to himself. Romans 7 is about Paul's struggle with sin. All that are indwelt with the Holy Spirit will have this struggle with sin.

Paul was speaking as one under the law.

NOT

"I can do all things through Christ Jesus".

jamie
March 17th, 2018, 01:30 PM
Paul wrote Romans 7 and applied it to himself. Romans 7 is about Paul's struggle with sin. All that are indwelt with the Holy Spirit will have this struggle with sin.


"concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." (Philippians 3:6)

You must be referring to a different Paul.

Robert Pate
March 17th, 2018, 01:41 PM
"concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." (Philippians 3:6)

You must be referring to a different Paul.


When Paul was a Pharisee he had the righteousness that is of man. He was blameless. But when he got saved and was indwelt by the Holy Spirit, he became aware of the fact that he was "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15.

glorydaz
March 17th, 2018, 02:19 PM
When Paul was a Pharisee he had the righteousness that is of man. He was blameless. But when he got saved and was indwelt by the Holy Spirit, he became aware of the fact that he was "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15.

That does not mean Paul thought he was the worst sinner, but that he was the first (a pattern) for those who come after...believing unto eternal life.


1 Tim. 1:15-16 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

jamie
March 17th, 2018, 03:02 PM
When Paul was a Pharisee he had the righteousness that is of man. He was blameless. But when he got saved and was indwelt by the Holy Spirit, he became aware of the fact that he was "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15.


When he was converted he realized he had persecuted God's people.

That doesn't mean he continued to do so after he realized he had been wrong.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8:1)

And yet you continually condemn Paul as the chief sinner.

Robert Pate
March 17th, 2018, 04:24 PM
When he was converted he realized he had persecuted God's people.

That doesn't mean he continued to do so after he realized he had been wrong.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8:1)

And yet you continually condemn Paul as the chief sinner.


Paul is the one that referred to himself as "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15.

Your problem is that you cannot figure out how one can be a sinner and still be saved. This is because you don't know nor do you understand the Gospel.

jamie
March 17th, 2018, 05:07 PM
Paul is the one that referred to himself as "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15.


A sinner is a person who transgresses the law.

Paul said the wages of sin is death.

The old Paul died and he became a new creation.

Paul taught that our old man was crucified with Him that the body of sin might be done away with that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.

You teach that Paul did not die to sin. That's bearing false witness.

Why do you continually accuse Paul of sin?

Robert Pate
March 18th, 2018, 08:42 AM
A sinner is a person who transgresses the law.

Paul said the wages of sin is death.

The old Paul died and he became a new creation.

Paul taught that our old man was crucified with Him that the body of sin might be done away with that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.

You teach that Paul did not die to sin. That's bearing false witness.

Why do you continually accuse Paul of sin?


Paul is the one that referred to himself as the "Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15.

Paul also said, "That in his flesh dwells no good thing" Romans 7:18.

Christians are called to live their lives before God as sinners, 1 John 1:8.

No one measures up to God's standards. We all come short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23.

jamie
March 18th, 2018, 12:40 PM
Paul is the one that referred to himself as the "Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15.


Jesus became sin to die for the sins of humankind.

So you think Paul did better?

Did Paul sin more than all of mankind?

I suspect Paul murdered less than a million people.

Paul is not in the same league as Hitler and Stalin.

jamie
March 18th, 2018, 12:45 PM
Paul also said, "That in his flesh dwells no good thing" Romans 7:18.


"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you." (Romans 8:9)

Why do you believe Paul did not have God's Spirit?

jamie
March 18th, 2018, 12:54 PM
Christians are called to live their lives before God as sinners, 1 John 1:8.


"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)

Robert Pate
March 19th, 2018, 12:26 PM
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)


As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we are sinners. We only have the first fruits or the down payment of the Holy Spirit. We are waiting to be delivered from the flesh. See Romans 8:22-27.

jamie
March 19th, 2018, 02:55 PM
As long as we are in these Adamic bodies we are sinners.


Sin is a debt. Those in debt are debtors.

When our debt is paid we are no longer a debtor.

Our big Brother picked up the tab and our sins are forgiven.

That means he has cleansed us from our unrighteous.

If a debt is forgiven it is no longer owed.

Jesus was in an Adamic body and he didn't sin.

We are begotten by the Father as Spirit.

The flesh counts for nothing, don't focus on it.

Robert Pate
March 19th, 2018, 04:14 PM
Sin is a debt. Those in debt are debtors.

When our debt is paid we are no longer a debtor.

Our big Brother picked up the tab and our sins are forgiven.

That means he has cleansed us from our unrighteous.

If a debt is forgiven it is no longer owed.

Jesus was in an Adamic body and he didn't sin.

We are begotten by the Father as Spirit.

The flesh counts for nothing, don't focus on it.


Spiritually, we are perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

Physically, we are the "chief of sinners". 1 Timothy 1:15.

If you are not able to distinguish between the two the Bible will not make sense.

glorydaz
March 19th, 2018, 04:30 PM
Spiritually, we are perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

Physically, we are the "chief of sinners". 1 Timothy 1:15.

If you are not able to distinguish between the two the Bible will not make sense.

But, Robert, how can we be the "chief of sinners" if Paul says he is? What does the word "chief" mean to you?


1 Timothy 1:15
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Tnkrbl123!
March 19th, 2018, 06:28 PM
A sinner is a person who transgresses the law.

Paul said the wages of sin is death.

The old Paul died and he became a new creation.

Paul taught that our old man was crucified with Him that the body of sin might be done away with that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin.

You teach that Paul did not die to sin. That's bearing false witness.

Why do you continually accuse Paul of sin?

I completely agree and would add that when you said the old Paul died and became a new creation that this is exactly the message that God was sending because before Paul was named Paul by God his name was Saul and Saul was the man who was zealous about pleasing God - and tried to please God by killing Christians (pretty messed up yes) but did not recognize that Jesus was God and when Jesus made Saul a new creation Jesus gave him the new name of Paul - a new name for a new man. :)

jamie
March 19th, 2018, 06:31 PM
Spiritually, we are perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

Physically, we are the "chief of sinners". 1 Timothy 1:15.

If you are not able to distinguish between the two the Bible will not make sense.


Robert, you are not making sense.

Jesus bears our sins and we are clean.

That's as far as we can go.

Robert Pate
March 19th, 2018, 08:05 PM
But, Robert, how can we be the "chief of sinners" if Paul says he is? What does the word "chief" mean to you?


1 Timothy 1:15
15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.


You have become the Chief of all nit pickers.

Robert Pate
March 19th, 2018, 08:07 PM
Robert, you are not making sense.

Jesus bears our sins and we are clean.

That's as far as we can go.


Righteousness and salvation is to our account. We don't have it yet.

Robert Pate
March 19th, 2018, 08:10 PM
I completely agree and would add that when you said the old Paul died and became a new creation that this is exactly the message that God was sending because before Paul was named Paul by God his name was Saul and Saul was the man who was zealous about pleasing God - and tried to please God by killing Christians (pretty messed up yes) but did not recognize that Jesus was God and when Jesus made Saul a new creation Jesus gave him the new name of Paul - a new name for a new man. :)


That same Paul said, "In my flesh dwells no good thing" Romans 7:18.

glorydaz
March 19th, 2018, 08:16 PM
You have become the Chief of all nit pickers.

I can't stop pointing out that you are misinterpreting that verse. It's sad to watch, because the message Paul is giving is so important. That he is the FIRST TO be saved under the Gospel of Grace the Risen Lord revealed to him. He is the FIRST for a pattern for those who would follow.

First (chief) and a pattern is NOT THE SAME as the "worst" of sinners as you are trying to portray him. You're bearing false witness against Paul. How can you not see the import of this text?


1 Timothy 1:14-16
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

glorydaz
March 19th, 2018, 08:22 PM
That same Paul said, "In my flesh dwells no good thing" Romans 7:18.

Oh, the same one who said he cannot do the good he wanted to do?


Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Or the one who says, "I can do all things through Christ..." Philippians 4:13

Ask Mr. Religion
March 19th, 2018, 10:13 PM
Righteousness and salvation is to our account. We don't have it yet.
Robert,

The judge can cause a prisoner to be righteous in the courtroom, "in the eyes of the court." People try to push the existential over the declarative, but that is prejudicial.

To make someone righteous has an end in view, or a final state. But the declaration often precedes that actual state in the body of the person. And that requires a different sort of basis for such a declaration than the actual being of the person.

The WORD of God creates its own reality. But from our experiential standpoint, it isn't always felt instantly.

Yes, we are made righteous... eventually, in our person. Through union, now, with Christ, we are "definitively sanctified." But that's a product of our union. We are righteous now because we are IN Christ, and HE is righteous right now. Ours is an alien righteousness, that of Another.

AMR

jamie
March 20th, 2018, 07:49 AM
Righteousness and salvation is to our account. We don't have it yet.


"Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous." (1 John 3:7)

Quit trying to deceive people. It's not working.

Robert Pate
March 20th, 2018, 08:00 AM
"Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous." (1 John 3:7)

Quit trying to deceive people. It's not working.

There are two kinds of righteousness.

The righteousness of man and the righteousness of God.

No one has the righteousness of God, simply because, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.

Robert Pate
March 20th, 2018, 08:05 AM
Robert,

The judge can cause a prisoner to be righteous in the courtroom, "in the eyes of the court." People try to push the existential over the declarative, but that is prejudicial.

To make someone righteous has an end in view, or a final state. But the declaration often precedes that actual state in the body of the person. And that requires a different sort of basis for such a declaration than the actual being of the person.

The WORD of God creates its own reality. But from our experiential standpoint, it isn't always felt instantly.

Yes, we are made righteous... eventually, in our person. Through union, now, with Christ, we are "definitively sanctified." But that's a product of our union. We are righteous now because we are IN Christ, and HE is righteous right now. Ours is an alien righteousness, that of Another.

AMR


We are NOT righteous now.

Paul said, Romans 8:19-27.

I don't know about you, but I am still groaning and waiting to be delivered from the flesh.

jamie
March 20th, 2018, 08:09 AM
There are two kinds of righteousness.

The righteousness of man and the righteousness of God.

No one has the righteousness of God, simply because, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.


There are none righteous, no, not one without God's Spirit.

"Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." (Romans 8:9)

Robert Pate
March 20th, 2018, 08:14 AM
There are none righteous, no, not one without God's Spirit.

"Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness." (Romans 8:9)

True, but not yet. That is the spiritual aspect of the Christian life. The physical aspect is that, Romans 3:10.

jamie
March 20th, 2018, 09:47 AM
True, but not yet. That is the spiritual aspect of the Christian life. The physical aspect is that, Romans 3:10.


So you believe the new person is the same as the old person who died, right?

genuineoriginal
March 20th, 2018, 10:07 AM
There are two kinds of righteousness.

The righteousness of man and the righteousness of God.

No one has the righteousness of God, simply because, "There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10.
You do know Paul was quoting the Old Testament, right?

Psalm 14:3-5
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
If there are none righteous, then who are the generation of the righteous that God is in?

Robert Pate
March 20th, 2018, 10:58 AM
You do know Paul was quoting the Old Testament, right?

Psalm 14:3-5
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
If there are none righteous, then who are the generation of the righteous that God is in?


The generation of the righteous are Christians. They are the ones that are righteous in Christ. But they are not in Christ yet. No one can posses the righteousness of Christ and still remain in their Adamic bodies that is indwelt with sin, Romans 7:18.

Robert Pate
March 20th, 2018, 11:02 AM
So you believe the new person is the same as the old person who died, right?

God sees us as new creations in Jesus Christ, "spiritually".

We see ourselves and others as sinners, because we are still here in the flesh. We have not arrived yet.

jamie
March 20th, 2018, 05:08 PM
We see ourselves and others as sinners, because we are still here in the flesh.


Do you not believe Jesus was in the flesh as a human being?

Jesus said, "That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit." (John 3:6)

Before we are born of the Spirit we must be begotten of the Spirit.

Conversion takes place from the inside out.

jamie
March 20th, 2018, 05:24 PM
We see ourselves and others as sinners, because we are still here in the flesh.


The flesh is dead because of sin.

DEAD. Get it, DEAD.

"And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin" (Romans 8:10)

All you seem to see is dead people who are still breathing.

Robert Pate
March 21st, 2018, 08:49 AM
The flesh is dead because of sin.

DEAD. Get it, DEAD.

"And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin" (Romans 8:10)

All you seem to see is dead people who are still breathing.


Spiritually, Romans 8:10 is right on. But if you move over to Romans 8:23, we are still groaning because of sin.

genuineoriginal
March 21st, 2018, 10:36 AM
The generation of the righteous are Christians. They are the ones that are righteous in Christ. But they are not in Christ yet. No one can posses the righteousness of Christ and still remain in their Adamic bodies that is indwelt with sin, Romans 7:18.
Your explanation does not match context of the passage.

Robert Pate
March 21st, 2018, 11:00 AM
The flesh is dead because of sin.

DEAD. Get it, DEAD.

"And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin" (Romans 8:10)

All you seem to see is dead people who are still breathing.


I don't see any that are righteous and without sin.

jamie
March 21st, 2018, 11:35 AM
Spiritually, Romans 8:10 is right on. But if you move over to Romans 8:23, we are still groaning because of sin.


Nothing about sin.

jamie
March 21st, 2018, 11:40 AM
I don't see any that are righteous and without sin.


We are the flesh and bones of Jesus Christ.

"For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones." (Ephesians 5:30)

So you are accusing Christ of sin? Why?

Robert Pate
March 21st, 2018, 12:20 PM
We are the flesh and bones of Jesus Christ.

"For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones." (Ephesians 5:30)

So you are accusing Christ of sin? Why?

Spiritually speaking, we are "In Christ" and Christ is in heaven, Colossians 3:3.

But we are not there yet, because we are still here on this evil planet in our Adamic bodies.

You cannot bring into the now that which in the future.

jamie
March 21st, 2018, 05:22 PM
Spiritually speaking, we are "In Christ" and Christ is in heaven, Colossians 3:3.

But we are not there yet, because we are still here on this evil planet in our Adamic bodies.

You cannot bring into the now that which in the future.


God dwells in his temple.

"Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are."
(1 Corinthians 3:16-17)

You claim that God's temple is unholy and unclean.

Robert Pate
March 22nd, 2018, 08:26 AM
God dwells in his temple.

"Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are."
(1 Corinthians 3:16-17)

You claim that God's temple is unholy and unclean.


I think that you are dull of hearing.

God sees Christians as perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

But we have not been totally sanctified yet. We are sinners and saints at the same time. Your problem is that you have rejected those scriptures that say that we are sinners, Romans 3:10, Romans 3:23.

We are still sinners because we are still here on the earth in these sinful Adamic bodies.

Tell me that you are without sin and I will show you a hypocrite, 1 John 1:8.