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clefty
March 13th, 2016, 05:46 AM
When Did the Disciples of Jesus
Stop Observing the Old Testament Laws?

"While Jesus was on earth, he and his disciples practiced the religion that God gave to the Israelites through Moses. The guidelines they followed were found primarily in the Torah*, which is the first five books of the Old Testament -- the writings of Moses. The Torah contains a variety of information including history, the Ten Commandments, and instructions pertaining to finance, government, family, health, farming, dress, feasts, and worship.

It was at some time after the death of Jesus that Christians stopped observing the Old Testament laws. Exactly when that change occurred is not clear in the Bible. Many people believe the change was made by Jesus himself immediately after the resurrection. However, there is compelling evidence in the book of Acts that the change did not occur until much later.

This article examines all the evidence in the book of Acts that indicates whether or not the apostles and early Christians were still following the Old Testament laws. The context of the story is important. It would be a good idea to read the whole book of Acts to understand the passages covered in this study.

...


Acts 6:11-14 Then they secretly persuaded some men to say, "We have heard Stephen speak words of blasphemy against Moses and against God." So they stirred up the people and the elders and the teachers of the law. They seized Stephen and brought him before the Sanhedrin. They produced false witnesses, who testified, "This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law. For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us."

The enemies of Stephen would not have needed the false witnesses if Stephen had been disobeying the laws of the Old Testament. In that case, truthful witnesses would have easily condemned him before the Sanhedrin. The fact that they needed false witnesses to accuse Stephen implies that he was actually obedient to the laws of the Torah."

http://www.fogwhistle.com/acts/evidence.html

I find this study a most compelling argument that those assemblies following "the Way" in that first century were nothing like the Church or churches today...

Why would Paul believe live and practice one way and teach another?

Yahushua was clear "Think not that I have come to destroy the Law..."

The Law remains else why would we need Grace? Besides, what better way can we show our gratitude for what was done for us than to obey?

We wish to keep it, not in order to become saved, but because we have faith we are saved...through Him.

Like the law of gravity, we don't keep it, we merely understand it keeps us...

Totton Linnet
March 13th, 2016, 07:56 AM
We SEE Peter transgressing the law when he visited Cornelius and God showed him by vision that the Gentiles were no longer to be regarded as common.

Paul said to Peter at Antioch "how can you live as a Gentile and then tell the Gentiles they must become Jews?"

clefty
March 13th, 2016, 10:38 AM
We SEE Peter transgressing the law when he visited Cornelius and God showed him by vision that the Gentiles were no longer to be regarded as common.

Paul said to Peter at Antioch "how can you live as a Gentile and then tell the Gentiles they must become Jews?"

Not sure what you are getting at...

Who was breaking which law?

jamie
March 13th, 2016, 03:39 PM
When Did the Disciples of Jesus
Stop Observing the Old Testament Laws?


They stopped observing the Mosaic law the night they observed the NT Passover with Jesus.

clefty
March 13th, 2016, 04:15 PM
They stopped observing the Mosaic law the night they observed the NT Passover with Jesus.

So that's why they hurried to bury Him before Sabbath...and came with spices after the Sabbath was over...?

BTW the last supper was not the Passover as they left the room singing to go out to the garden...the next day the lambs were killed when He was...

jamie
March 13th, 2016, 07:32 PM
So that's why they hurried to bury Him before Sabbath...and came with spices after the Sabbath was over...?

BTW the last supper was not the Passover as they left the room singing to go out to the garden...the next day the lambs were killed when He was...


Was it Jesus' Passover?


When the hour had come, He sat down, and the twelve apostles with Him. Then He said to them, “With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer, for I say to you, I will no longer eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” (Luke 22:14-16)

The Passover has not been fulfilled.

Danoh
March 13th, 2016, 07:59 PM
The Twelve and their followers REMAINED under the Law.

How long?

Matthew 10:19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.

10:20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

24:20 But pray your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

Years later, He had still not returned. And we read...

Acts 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present. 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry. 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

What about the Gentiles?

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

MJs confuse that as referring to Sheva Mitzvot B'nei Noach, or the Noahide Laws Gentiles are supposedly under, this side of the Cross.

The Apostle of the Gentiles: Paul, would beg to differ as to that which James is talking about as James had no authority over the Gentiles.

Galatians 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.

2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 2:8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles: ) 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. 2:10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

Paul's instruction to the Gentiles regarding this issue?

1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth. 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him. 8:4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.

8:7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled. 8:8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse. 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak. 8:10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; 8:11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 8:12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.

What all that is, is that AT THAT TIME both assemblies of God had THEN been on Earth.

The MJ's assembly (James, Cephas, John and their followers "the circumcision") diminishing away TEMPORARILY due to Unbelieving Israel's TEMPORARY fall...

Romans 11:12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

clefty
March 13th, 2016, 07:59 PM
Was it Jesus' Passover?


When the hour had come, He sat down, and the twelve apostles with Him. Then He said to them, “With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer, for I say to you, I will no longer eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” (Luke 22:14-16)

The Passover has not been fulfilled.

Yahusha was the Passover...cursed to die innocent but the first born of a disobedient race

Is why the disciples continued to celebrate...even after the Ascension...and it will be celebrated with Him in the world to come...

we are instructed to celebrate with the the new unleavened bread of sincerity and truth...

(Note also Paul did not say with the unleavened bread transformed into His flesh...)

patrick jane
March 13th, 2016, 08:13 PM
Like the law of gravity, we don't keep it, we merely understand it keeps us...

:thumb:

jamie
March 13th, 2016, 09:14 PM
Yahusha was the Passover...


But that was not the question I was addressing. Someone asked, "When Did the Disciples of Jesus Stop Observing the Old Testament Laws"?

My answer was that it was Jesus' NT Passover. Why? Because it was observed the night before the Passover was killed on the 14th.

When the Jews observed the Passover of Exodus 12:42 Jesus was already dead and entombed.

Nick M
March 13th, 2016, 09:39 PM
Not sure what you are getting at...

Who was breaking which law?

I see no reason to discuss if you claim honestly you don't know what she is talking about. Come back after you have studied the Holy Bible.

Bradley D
March 13th, 2016, 11:50 PM
A change began with the conversion of Gentiles. Paul argued that circumcision was not required of Gentiles. In Acts James and the other elders agreed. They said, "as for the Gentile believers, we have written to them our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality” (Acts 21:25).

As previously mentioned Peter was told that the restrictions on food and associating with Gentiles were no longer required. Prior to that a Gentile proselyte had to be circumcised and adhere to Jewish law and customs.

Danoh
March 14th, 2016, 01:07 AM
We SEE Peter transgressing the law when he visited Cornelius and God showed him by vision that the Gentiles were no longer to be regarded as common.

Paul said to Peter at Antioch "how can you live as a Gentile and then tell the Gentiles they must become Jews?"


Not sure what you are getting at...

Who was breaking which law?

Take key words from what she said, and use them to locate where in Scripture what she is talking about is found.

Then, when you find those verses, do the same with them - using key words from those verses - try to locate other verses that also talk about what those verses mentioned.

So as not to give you what is actually your responsibility, here is an example of how to do this using another passage.

In Matthew 8 we read...

8:1 When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him. 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. 8:3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. 8:4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

Say, you want to know what that gift is that Jesus was talking about there.

Its key words are leprosy, cleansed, shew thyself to a priest, offer the gift, commanded by Moses, for a testimony.

Obviously, that is connected to a commandment given by Moses in connection with leprosy.

As you start chasing all that down, you end up at Leviticus 14, where Moses gives Israel The Law of the Leper, etc.

You now have a simple method of studying a thing out in the Bible.

Do the same with the words that Totten used.

As you go along, you pick up principles simply by asking yourself 'okay, what have I learned about how to study a thing out?'

Ask yourself that each time you study and write down your answers as principles or rules of thumb that you can follow whenever you study and or anytime you find yourself stuck.

Writing them down as principles you can follow also helps you to check yourself against mistakes.

You really do have to invent this wheel for yourself, as you go.

Because most writers of "commentaries" supposedly "about" the Bible, consistently contradict themselves.

Because they are basically parroting books they read. And that goes all the way back to when this simple process I recommend was basically thrown out the window.

Just start with the above and often ask who; what; when; where; why; how types of questions.

If you'll read your post above, you began to do just that - you asked what and who.

Now you know where to begin to go from there.

Again, you build your key list from one verse, and then look for other verses where the same or similar key words are also used.

There is more to this than this, but its a start.

The best to you in this...

Ben Masada
March 14th, 2016, 01:32 AM
When Did the Disciples of Jesus
Stop Observing the Old Testament Laws?

"While Jesus was on earth, he and his disciples practiced the religion that God gave to the Israelites through Moses. The guidelines they followed were found primarily in the Torah*, which is the first five books of the Old Testament -- the writings of Moses. The Torah contains a variety of information including history, the Ten Commandments, and instructions pertaining to finance, government, family, health, farming, dress, feasts, and worship.

[B]It was at some time after the death of Jesus that Christians stopped observing the Old Testament laws. Exactly when that change occurred is not clear in the Bible. Many people believe the change was made by Jesus himself immediately after the resurrection. However, there is compelling evidence in the book of Acts that the change did not occur until much later.

This article examines all the evidence in the book of Acts that indicates whether or not the apostles and early Christians were still following the Old Testament laws. The context of the story is important. It would be a good idea to read the whole book of Acts to understand the passages covered in this study.

...


Acts 6:11-14 Then they secretly persuaded some men to say, "We have heard Stephen speak words of blasphemy against Moses and against God." So they stirred up the people and the elders and the teachers of the law. They seized Stephen and brought him before the Sanhedrin. They produced false witnesses, who testified, "This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law. For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us."

The enemies of Stephen would not have needed the false witnesses if Stephen had been disobeying the laws of the Old Testament. In that case, truthful witnesses would have easily condemned him before the Sanhedrin. The fact that they needed false witnesses to accuse Stephen implies that he was actually obedient to the laws of the Torah."

http://www.fogwhistle.com/acts/evidence.html

I find this study a most compelling argument that those assemblies following "the Way" in that first century were nothing like the Church or churches today...

Why would Paul believe live and practice one way and teach another?

Yahushua was clear "Think not that I have come to destroy the Law..."

The Law remains else why would we need Grace? Besides, what better way can we show our gratitude for what was done for us than to obey?

We wish to keep it, not in order to become saved, but because we have faith we are saved...through Him.

Like the law of gravity, we don't keep it, we merely understand it keeps us...

The disciples of Jesus will stop observing the OT laws when heaven and earth stop existing. That's what Jesus himself said in Matthew 5:17-19. Now, go ahead and do the same.

God's Truth
March 14th, 2016, 02:53 AM
Jesus told his disciples that the Pharisees and teachers of the law sat in Moses' seat.

What does that mean?

That means they enforced the regulations of the temple.

What were the regulations?

The regulations were the ceremonial works, the purification works.

Jesus said they, his disciples, had to do what they, the pharisees and teachers of the law said.

The disciples also had to preach the gospel.

Peter was afraid of the Jews so he acted out of line with the gospel.

Jesus warned his disciples of what will happen, eventually.

The old law was still in force because the temple was still standing, and the law was still enforced by those with power; but, it was all going to be obsolete, it was fading.

Jesus also spoke of the temple and its destruction.

No one can obey the old law after the temple was destroyed.

Any way a person wants to do what God says, they must come to Him through Jesus, whether Jew or Gentile.

God's Truth
March 14th, 2016, 03:12 AM
Matthew 23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you.

Matthew 23:2 "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

Luke 19:44
They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God's coming to you."

2 Corinthians 3:13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away.

Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Galatians 2:12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.

Galatians 2:14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

God's Truth
March 14th, 2016, 03:31 AM
Why would Paul believe live and practice one way and teach another?

Yahushua was clear "Think not that I have come to destroy the Law..."

That means he fulfilled the Law and the Prophets.

What does that mean?

That means that the shadow was gone in Christ.

That means that every old law, the purification/ceremonial works were about Jesus.

A shadow comes before a man when the light is behind the person.

In Jesus, there is no shadow, for Jesus is light.

We no longer obey the teaching tools, the shadow that was from Jesus, who was coming.




The Law remains else why would we need Grace? Besides, what better way can we show our gratitude for what was done for us than to obey?

You better believe we have to obey. We have to obey Jesus' teachings. We no longer have to obey the old law, the ceremonial/purification regulations.

What does that mean?

It means we no longer have to justify ourselves by doing those regulations just to go to the temple to worship God, for that is where His Spirit was.

No one has to do those works anymore, because faith that Jesus' blood purifies us is what cleans us of the sins we repent of doing.

If you practice the old law and still get circumcised and observe special days, then you will have to do ALL the other regulations of the old law, which is NOW IMPOSSIBLE.

You will have also FALLEN FROM GRACE, and you are what is called a 'bitter root', and if you influence others, you will have helped in defiling them.

God's Truth
March 14th, 2016, 03:48 AM
Galatians 5:3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

Galatians 5:2
Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all.

Hebrews 12:15 See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.

steko
March 14th, 2016, 05:23 AM
Yahusha was the Passover...cursed to die innocent but the first born of a disobedient race

Is why the disciples continued to celebrate...even after the Ascension...and it will be celebrated with Him in the world to come...

we are instructed to celebrate with the the new unleavened bread of sincerity and truth...

(Note also Paul did not say with the unleavened bread transformed into His flesh...)


Who is Yahusha? That's neither Hebrew, Aramaic nor Greek.

clefty
August 24th, 2016, 04:59 AM
Who is Yahusha? That's neither Hebrew, Aramaic nor Greek.

Neither is the name Jesus...

But that's not the point of this thread is it?

Do you believe Paul would live one way and teach another? Christians do and misusing his writings teach there was a change or even end to the Law.

beameup
August 24th, 2016, 05:22 AM
When Did the Disciples of Jesus
Stop Observing the Old Testament Laws?

Never. They correctly understood the Law through the Torah.
There were Messianic Synagogues through the 2nd century AD.
The Karaite Sect accept the Tanakh alone as its supreme authority
in Religious Law (Halakha) and do not accept the Midrash or Talmud
"oral law" as authoritative. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism

However, the Sacrificial System based in Jerusalem ended with the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.

jamie
August 24th, 2016, 08:05 AM
Do you believe Paul would live one way and teach another? Christians do misusing his writings to teach there was a change or even end to the Law.


We know God gave the law to the people of Jacob through Moses. Did God send Moses to any Gentile nation to give them the law also?

Do you believe Paul's teachings?

ThreeAngels
August 24th, 2016, 09:50 AM
When Did the Disciples of Jesus
Stop Observing the Old Testament Laws?

"While Jesus was on earth, he and his disciples practiced the religion that God gave to the Israelites through Moses. The guidelines they followed were found primarily in the Torah*, which is the first five books of the Old Testament -- the writings of Moses. The Torah contains a variety of information including history, the Ten Commandments, and instructions pertaining to finance, government, family, health, farming, dress, feasts, and worship.

It was at some time after the death of Jesus that Christians stopped observing the Old Testament laws. Exactly when that change occurred is not clear in the Bible. Many people believe the change was made by Jesus himself immediately after the resurrection. However, there is compelling evidence in the book of Acts that the change did not occur until much later.

This article examines all the evidence in the book of Acts that indicates whether or not the apostles and early Christians were still following the Old Testament laws. The context of the story is important. It would be a good idea to read the whole book of Acts to understand the passages covered in this study.

...


Acts 6:11-14 Then they secretly persuaded some men to say, "We have heard Stephen speak words of blasphemy against Moses and against God." So they stirred up the people and the elders and the teachers of the law. They seized Stephen and brought him before the Sanhedrin. They produced false witnesses, who testified, "This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law. For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us."

The enemies of Stephen would not have needed the false witnesses if Stephen had been disobeying the laws of the Old Testament. In that case, truthful witnesses would have easily condemned him before the Sanhedrin. The fact that they needed false witnesses to accuse Stephen implies that he was actually obedient to the laws of the Torah."

http://www.fogwhistle.com/acts/evidence.html

I find this study a most compelling argument that those assemblies following "the Way" in that first century were nothing like the Church or churches today...

Why would Paul believe live and practice one way and teach another?

Yahushua was clear "Think not that I have come to destroy the Law..."

The Law remains else why would we need Grace? Besides, what better way can we show our gratitude for what was done for us than to obey?

We wish to keep it, not in order to become saved, but because we have faith we are saved...through Him.

Like the law of gravity, we don't keep it, we merely understand it keeps us...
The ceremonial law was made up of symbols pointing to the sacrifice of Jesus. When Jesus died Substance met shadow, and the sacrificial system ended. It is this law that Christ “took . . . out of the way, nailing it to His cross.” Colossians 2:14.

clefty
August 24th, 2016, 11:27 AM
The ceremonial law was made up of symbols pointing to the sacrifice of Jesus. When Jesus died Substance met shadow, and the sacrificial system ended. It is this law that Christ “took . . . out of the way, nailing it to His cross.” Colossians 2:14.

The charges against us, our debts, were nailed to the cross - not the Laws.

Col 2:17 Paul writes they ARE shadows, not were.

You catch that? The shadows remain or else Paul would have written they WERE shadows.

But he didn't because they remain.

And still point, as all shadows do to the source of light.

ThreeAngels
August 25th, 2016, 12:44 AM
The charges against us, our debts, were nailed to the cross - not the Laws.

Col 2:17 Paul writes they ARE shadows, not were.

You catch that? The shadows remain or else Paul would have written they WERE shadows.

But he didn't because they remain.

And still point, as all shadows do to the source of light.
The full text of Colossians 2:14 reads, "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross." Ordinance means law. This law was written by Moses at the dictation of the mouth of God, and it is separate from the Decalogue which was written by the finger of God Himself. The ceremonial law served its purpose in pointing to the sacrifice of Christ. When He was crucified He thus nailed it to the cross.

clefty
August 25th, 2016, 01:41 AM
We know God gave the law to the people of Jacob through Moses. Did God send Moses to any Gentile nation to give them the law also?

Do you believe Paul's teachings?

Paul clearly teaches that the Law points out sin. So according to you, only the people of Jacob sinned?

And it also clear in the OT that it is one and the same Law for the native and the stranger "for all have sinned".

There was no need for Moses to go to a Gentile nation as any who believed would wish to keep this Law. His house, after all, is a house of prayer for all Nations to worship and worship as He instructed not any which way because it's tradition.

clefty
August 25th, 2016, 01:57 AM
The full text of Colossians 2:14 reads, "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross." Ordinance means law. This law was written by Moses at the dictation of the mouth of God, and it is separate from the Decalogue which was written by the finger of God Himself. The ceremonial law served its purpose in pointing to the sacrifice of Christ. When He was crucified He thus nailed it to the cross.

Then why did the believers hurry to bury Him in order to keep the Passover Sabbath? Why did Paul continue to keep the Sabbath and the feasts and instruct we do the same with the new unleavened bread? And Peter keep kosher?

If there were any changes to His law, He would have been clear about it. Instead, He taught "think NOT" exactly what you are thinking.


This might help clarify...

https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-tools/booklets/the-new-covenant-does-it-abolish-gods-law/what-was-wiped-out-by-jesus

jamie
August 25th, 2016, 08:31 AM
Paul clearly teaches that the Law points out sin. So according to you, only the people of Jacob sinned?


:doh:

Romans 2:12 "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law."

clefty
August 25th, 2016, 11:19 AM
:doh:

Romans 2:12 "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law."

Keep reading...

13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous...

Paul then even accounts for those who don't hear the Law but do it anyway...

But iit is Peter who writes of those who hear the holy commandment and then turn away again like a dog returns to its vomit...

Obviously the Law remains...jot and tittle

jamie
August 25th, 2016, 11:51 AM
Obviously the Law remains...jot and tittle


What does the law say?

clefty
August 25th, 2016, 06:44 PM
What does the law say?

Might I suggest you ask Him?

jamie
August 25th, 2016, 08:21 PM
Might I suggest you ask Him?


Yeah, I didn't think you knew.

:carryon:

clefty
August 26th, 2016, 11:16 AM
Yeah, I didn't think you knew.

:carryon:

Interesting response to a suggestion to pray for an answer...

Almost mocking...

typical of one in rebellion to obedience...

Ben Masada
August 26th, 2016, 01:22 PM
[quote]Jesus told his disciples that the Pharisees and teachers of the law sat in Moses' seat. What does that mean? That means they enforced the regulations of the temple.

That means the same as what Jesus meant when he said to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) Why don't you obey him?


What were the regulations? The regulations were the ceremonial works, the purification works. Jesus said they, his disciples, had to do what they, the pharisees and teachers of the law said.

No, the regulations were to listen to "Moses" aka the Law as Jesus reminded them of. (Luke 16:29-31)


The disciples also had to preach the gospel.

Yes, the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach; not the gospel of Paul which was the NT.


Peter was afraid of the Jews so he acted out of line with the gospel. Jesus warned his disciples of what will happen, eventually.

What! Peter was afraid of the Jews! I thought he was a Jew himself. You speak about him as if he was not a Jew.


The old law was still in force because the temple was still standing, and the law was still enforced by those with power; but, it was all going to be obsolete, it was fading.

Not true at all! The Law was in force because heaven and earth had not passed away yet. Don't forget what Jesus said in Mat. 5:17-19! The Law was in force all those years until Solomon built the Temple. The Law was in force during all the 70 years the Jews spent in exile in Babylon. So, what are you talking about?


Jesus also spoke of the temple and its destruction.

Who said so, the Hellenists who wrote the gospels after the destruction of the Temple? Every one could speak of the Temple after its destruction. Amazing!


No one can obey the old law after the temple was destroyed.

How was the Law obeyed for many years before the Temple was built and during those 70 years in Babylon?


Any way a person wants to do what God says, they must come to Him through Jesus, whether Jew or Gentile.

They must first wake Jesus' up from the grave. If you have forgotten, he is still dead. If we want to do what God says we must go for His Word which is not beyond reach. It is not in the heavens that we should say, who among us can go up to the heavens and get It for us and impart It to us that we may observe It? Neither It is beyond the sea that we should say, who among us can cross to the other side of the sea and get it for us and impart It to us that we may observe It? No, God's Word is very close to us, in our own mouth and in our heart.(Deuteronomy 30:11-14)

TweetyBird
August 26th, 2016, 01:42 PM
Never. They correctly understood the Law through the Torah.
There were Messianic Synagogues through the 2nd century AD.
The Karaite Sect accept the Tanakh alone as its supreme authority
in Religious Law (Halakha) and do not accept the Midrash or Talmud
"oral law" as authoritative. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karaite_Judaism

However, the Sacrificial System based in Jerusalem ended with the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D.

Without the Levitical Priesthood there is no Mosaic Law Covenant. It was all been satisfied in Christ's death, who is the High Priest forever - in the order of Melchizedek, not Aaron/Levite.

TweetyBird
August 26th, 2016, 01:45 PM
Neither is the name Jesus...



When you keep using a name for Jesus that is a non-name - what you have to say loses credibility. Jesus is a transliteration of Yeshua. It means the exact same thing. Perhaps you should study out the etymology instead of making remarks that have zero factual support.

TweetyBird
August 26th, 2016, 01:52 PM
The charges against us, our debts, were nailed to the cross - not the Laws.

Col 2:17 Paul writes they ARE shadows, not were.

You catch that? The shadows remain or else Paul would have written they WERE shadows.

But he didn't because they remain.

And still point, as all shadows do to the source of light.

WRITTEN Commandments were nailed to the cross. Compare to Eph 2. The Greek words used are

G5498
χειρόγραφον
cheirographon
khi-rog'-raf-on
Neuter of a compound of G5495 and G1125; something hand written (“chirograph”), that is, a manuscript (specifically a legal document or bond (figuratively)): - handwriting.

G1378
δόγμα
dogma
dog'-mah
From the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance.


Eph 2
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

The context of Col 2 shows that Paul is referring to the Mosaic Law itself.

Col 2
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 and having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Grosnick Marowbe
August 26th, 2016, 01:57 PM
It's merely opinion/speculation, however, I believe that Peter and the rest of the Apostles/Disciples continued to preach "The Kingdom Gospel" to the Jews until they died. Whereas, the Apostle Paul preached "The Grace Gospel" to the Gentiles until he died. That's my opinion.

TweetyBird
August 26th, 2016, 01:58 PM
The full text of Colossians 2:14 reads, "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross." Ordinance means law. This law was written by Moses at the dictation of the mouth of God, and it is separate from the Decalogue which was written by the finger of God Himself. The ceremonial law served its purpose in pointing to the sacrifice of Christ. When He was crucified He thus nailed it to the cross.

I think the OT disagrees with you. The entire law of Moses was the 10 and all of the other laws, commandments, and statues given to Israel. It was all written down in the Book of the Law, also called the Covenant, also called the Law of Moses, also called the Law of God, also called the 10 commandments.

TweetyBird
August 26th, 2016, 02:00 PM
Then why did the believers hurry to bury Him in order to keep the Passover Sabbath? Why did Paul continue to keep the Sabbath and the feasts and instruct we do the same with the new unleavened bread? And Peter keep kosher?

They did not know that Jesus had fulfilled the Law and were still keeping the Law as they were taught.


If there were any changes to His law, He would have been clear about it. Instead, He taught "think NOT" exactly what you are thinking.

He did change the entire thing in one sentence, the night He was betrayed when He held up a cup of wine and said this is MY NEW COVENANT in MY BLOOD, shed for you.

TweetyBird
August 26th, 2016, 02:04 PM
Keep reading...

13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous...

Paul then even accounts for those who don't hear the Law but do it anyway...

But iit is Peter who writes of those who hear the holy commandment and then turn away again like a dog returns to its vomit...

Obviously the Law remains...jot and tittle

If one jot or tittle passes away, it all falls down. There is no more sacrifice for sin with the blood of animals. The whole Law falls down because that foundation was destroyed.

ThreeAngels
August 27th, 2016, 12:11 AM
I think the OT disagrees with you. The entire law of Moses was the 10 and all of the other laws, commandments, and statues given to Israel. It was all written down in the Book of the Law, also called the Covenant, also called the Law of Moses, also called the Law of God, also called the 10 commandments.
The Law of the ten commandments was written by God's finger and given to Moses on mount Sinai as written,"And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them."(see Exodus 24:12) while the law of Moses was written by Moses on God's dictation in a book. "And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them " (see Exodus 24:7). The Decalogue was kept inside the ark, as shown in the Scripture, "And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee." Exodus25:16. The law of Moses was kept on the side of the ark of the covenant as is written in Deut 31:25,26 "... Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee."
Jesus did keep and fulfill the law but that does not in any way take the obligation of keeping the law from us. The Bible defines sin as"the transgression of the law" 1 John 3:4. Saying that there is no more obligation to keep the law since Jesus kept it is tantamount to saying that there is no more sin.

clefty
August 27th, 2016, 05:11 AM
When you keep using a name for Jesus that is a non-name - what you have to say loses credibility. Jesus is a transliteration of Yeshua. It means the exact same thing. Perhaps you should study out the etymology instead of making remarks that have zero factual support.

http://christianitybeliefs.org/the-falling-away/messiahs-name-is-yahusha-not-yahushua-not-yahshua-not-yeshua-not-jesus/

clefty
August 27th, 2016, 05:43 AM
Yes, the gospel of Jesus which was the Tanach; not the gospel of Paul which was the NT.

This thread is meant to address this misperception, that Paul teaches another gospel.

Did you read the opening article?

Many misuse Paul to maintain false teaching and tradition--exactly what Peter warned about.

This is useful for joos to reject their messiah and Christians to reject their trunk and root.



What! Peter was afraid of the Jews! I thought he was a Jew himself. You speak about him as if he was not a Jew. Flee evil, Satan prowls like a hungry lion.

One just has to read what joodah did to Israel to understand the danger of these snakes and their idolatrous counterfeits. You are either for or against and they have shown repeatedly they are against. They kill the Spirit, the Law and then the person of any who counters them as those in the locked upper room witnessed. True believers even feared Saul before he was Paul.




The Law was in force because heaven and earth had not passed away yet. Yes.




They must first wake Jesus' up from the grave. If you have forgotten, he is still dead. If we want to do what God says we must go for His Word which is not beyond reach. It is not in the heavens that we should say, who among us can go up to the heavens and get It for us and impart It to us that we may observe It? Neither It is beyond the sea that we should say, who among us can cross to the other side of the sea and get it for us and impart It to us that we may observe It? No, God's Word is very close to us, in our own mouth and in our heart.(Deuteronomy 30:11-14)

Mixing truth with deception counterfeits the whole and the very reason to be afraid of those who do so.

You would make Him a liar when He said He would rise. This type of teaching is what Peter feared and warned against as he saw Him risen himself.

patrick jane
August 27th, 2016, 06:15 AM
This thread is meant to address this misperception, that Paul teaches another gospel.


Galatians 2:7 KJV - 2 gospels

patrick jane
August 27th, 2016, 06:16 AM
The 12 didn't know -

Luke 18:31-32 KJV - Luke 18:33-34 KJV -

Luke 24:9-10 KJV - Luke 24:11 KJV -

clefty
August 27th, 2016, 06:20 AM
Without the Levitical Priesthood there is no Mosaic Law Covenant. It was all been satisfied in Christ's death, who is the High Priest forever - in the order of Melchizedek, not Aaron/Levite.

He desires mercy not sacrifice...

The priesthood has always been secondary and merely an act of memorandum.

Passover occured then remembered.

Creation occurred and on Sabbath we remember.

iouae
August 27th, 2016, 06:22 AM
While many are still fixated with the 613, I try to focus on the much more relevant 1050.

patrick jane
August 27th, 2016, 06:22 AM
When Did the Disciples of Jesus
Stop Observing the Old Testament Laws?


It was at some time after the death of Jesus that Christians stopped observing the Old Testament laws. Exactly when that change occurred is not clear in the Bible.

It is clear in the Bible, it was some 14 years after DBR that the 12 found out about Paul's gospel, given to him first by the risen ascended Christ on the road to Damascus.

Galatians 2:1 KJV - Galatians 2:2 KJV -

clefty
August 27th, 2016, 06:59 AM
WRITTEN Commandments were nailed to the cross. Compare to Eph 2. The Greek words used are

G5498
χειρόγραφον
cheirographon
khi-rog'-raf-on
Neuter of a compound of G5495 and G1125; something hand written (“chirograph”), that is, a manuscript (specifically a legal document or bond (figuratively)): - handwriting.

G1378
δόγμα
dogma
dog'-mah
From the base of G1380; a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical): - decree, ordinance.


Eph 2
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

The context of Col 2 shows that Paul is referring to the Mosaic Law itself.

Col 2
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 and having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

https://abiblicalperspective.wordpress.com/2007/12/12/that-which-has-been-nailed-to-the-cross/

A little longer reading:

http://www.thethirdangelsmessage.com/the-book-of-the-law

clefty
August 27th, 2016, 07:26 AM
It's merely opinion/speculation, however, I believe that Peter and the rest of the Apostles/Disciples continued to preach "The Kingdom Gospel" to the Jews until they died. Whereas, the Apostle Paul preached "The Grace Gospel" to the Gentiles until he died. That's my opinion.

As witness to the joos it's ironic Peter is head of the Roman church...or is it?

clefty
August 27th, 2016, 07:28 AM
Galatians 2:7 KJV - 2 gospels



But wouldn't one of these gospels be another gospel?

The gospel is salvation and there is only one way...but in this case two audiences.

And the gospel as salvation was already in the OT and was alway welcoming foreigners...if they obeyed.

Those who have faith and believe will wish to obey.

Gentiles are merely grafted in and even biological law demands the grafted branch adheres to the root and stock it's attached to. You can't graft an apple branch to a orange tree. So spiritually speaking our fruit should closely follow the previous tradition.

clefty
August 27th, 2016, 07:39 AM
I think the OT disagrees with you. The entire law of Moses was the 10 and all of the other laws, commandments, and statues given to Israel. It was all written down in the Book of the Law, also called the Covenant, also called the Law of Moses, also called the Law of God, also called the 10 commandments.

So now ALL the Law was nailed to the cross?

patrick jane
August 27th, 2016, 07:42 AM
But wouldn't one of these gospels be another gospel?

The gospel is salvation and there is only one way...but in this case two audiences.

And the gospel as salvation was already in the OT and was alway welcoming foreigners...if they obeyed.

Those who have faith and believe will wish to obey.

Gentiles are merely grafted in and even biological law demands the grafted branch adheres to the root and stock it's attached to. You can't graft an apple branch to a orange tree. So spiritually speaking our fruit should closely follow the previous tradition.
2 different gospels and actually a "gospel" is any piece of good news - there are many gospels in the Bible

clefty
August 27th, 2016, 07:57 AM
They did not know that Jesus had fulfilled the Law and were still keeping the Law as they were taught.

When did they find out? Why weren't they notified? Had you read the opening article of the thread you would have seen Peter and Paul and the early assemblies continuing as per usual. Usual being the old covenant ways.




He did change the entire thing in one sentence, the night He was betrayed when He held up a cup of wine and said this is MY NEW COVENANT in MY BLOOD, shed for you.

You imply and argue from silence.

If the change occurred at that time then there would have been no need for the Passover to be kept that year.

Apparently the new covenant maintained the terms of the old and Passover continued to be celebrated and Peter remained kosher. Don't see Paul eating pork either though...

clefty
August 27th, 2016, 08:02 AM
If one jot or tittle passes away, it all falls down. There is no more sacrifice for sin with the blood of animals. The whole Law falls down because that foundation was destroyed.

So there is no more sin?

patrick jane
August 27th, 2016, 08:09 AM
So there is no more sin?
Romans 6:11 KJV -

clefty
August 27th, 2016, 08:58 AM
Romans 6:11 KJV -

Slow down there champ...

"Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

We are dead to sin, sin is not dead, it still exists.

TweetyBird
August 27th, 2016, 09:05 AM
So now ALL the Law was nailed to the cross?

All of the Mosaic Law Covenant, yes, because it brought death, bondage, a yoke, and the desire to sin.

TweetyBird
August 27th, 2016, 09:18 AM
When did they find out? Why weren't they notified? Had you read the opening article of the thread you would have seen Peter and Paul and the early assemblies continuing as per usual. Usual being the old covenant ways.

I don't see that. What Acts says it that broke bread together daity, joined together as a community, shared all their common goods, prayed and worshiped together and then went to the Temple to preach the Gospel. That does not sound like the Mosaic Law to me. I will say the change in keeping the law was progressive. Changing 1500 years of practice takes time to change. That is why Jesus called Paul, and taught him Himself so that he could reveal the mystery of the Gospel.




You imply and argue from silence.

How is Jesus saying "this is My Blood of the New Covenant which is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins", speaking from silence?


If the change occurred at that time then there would have been no need for the Passover to be kept that year.

Apparently the new covenant maintained the terms of the old and Passover continued to be celebrated and Peter remained kosher. Don't see Paul eating pork either though...

Peter ate with the Gentiles. Jesus said what goes into the body cannot make one unclean and then God confirmed it to Peter when He let down the sheet full of unclean animals and told him to eat - 3 times. Jesus died at Passover so of course the new covenant was not in effect until He died. Paul lived in many communities during his ministry and mostly with the Gentiles. Having written that "But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse" I hardly doubt that Paul was "kosher". You do understand that "kosher" is not the same thing as what is written in the Mosaic Law?

Passover could not be maintained. It was completely satisfied in Christ. You don't "maintain" the shadows when the Light casts no shadows.

clefty
August 27th, 2016, 09:20 AM
It is clear in the Bible, it was some 14 years after DBR that the 12 found out about Paul's gospel, given to him first by the risen ascended Christ on the road to Damascus.

Galatians 2:1 KJV - Galatians 2:2 KJV -

What changed there was that Paul accepted what he had been persecuting.

Oh and slowly the joos realized it wasn't just about them...

But Sabbaths were still kept. As were the feasts, Paul even admonishes we keep the feast with the new unleavened bread. Oh and Peter kept kosher...

TweetyBird
August 27th, 2016, 09:22 AM
So there is no more sin?

Huh? :confused:

TweetyBird
August 27th, 2016, 09:26 AM
What changed there was that Paul accepted what he had been persecuting.

Oh and slowly the joos realized it wasn't just about them...

But Sabbaths were still kept. As were the feasts, Paul even admonishes we keep the feast with the new unleavened bread. Oh and Peter kept kosher...

Why are you writing "joos"? That is totally disrespectful.

Paul did not admonish anyone to keep Passover. You keep Passover by sacrificing a lamb and painting one's door posts and removing leaven from your dwelling place. Paul said to remove leaven from yourself. That is NOT Passover at all, in the least. He also said that Jesus was the Passover, which completely puts to death Passover according to the Mosaic Law Covenant.

Peter did not "keep kosher". But I will say, you have quite the sense of humor if you think so. Maybe he kept those extra dishes in his knapsack :rotfl:

clefty
August 27th, 2016, 12:02 PM
All of the Mosaic Law Covenant, yes, because it brought death, bondage, a yoke, and the desire to sin.

That's a long way from "O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day."

What you describe is not its fault. It just is.

As if we should detest gravity for our dropped and broken toys.

steko
August 27th, 2016, 12:32 PM
Neither is the name Jesus...


Yeah, but at least it's English.

TweetyBird
August 27th, 2016, 01:01 PM
That's a long way from "O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day."

What you describe is not it's fault. It just is.

As if we should detest gravity for our dropped and broken toys.

For David, at the time, yes being in the old covenant. For those in the New Covenant, no. Peter spoke of the yoke of the Law of Moses in Acts 15. Paul spoke of the death, bondage and desire to sin in Romans.

patrick jane
August 27th, 2016, 01:24 PM
Slow down there champ...

"Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

We are dead to sin, sin is not dead, it still exists.
Of course sin still exists, clefty chin !! Paul talks all about that -

patrick jane
August 27th, 2016, 01:30 PM
What changed there was that Paul accepted what he had been persecuting.

Oh and slowly the joos realized it wasn't just about them...

But Sabbaths were still kept. As were the feasts, Paul even admonishes we keep the feast with the new unleavened bread. Oh and Peter kept kosher...
It's Jews you anti-semite

Mark 7:15 KJV - Mark 7:18 KJV - Mark 7:19 KJV -

clefty
August 27th, 2016, 09:30 PM
2 different gospels and actually a "gospel" is any piece of good news - there are many gospels in the Bible

Now there are many gospels...

All different ways to salvation yes?

clefty
August 27th, 2016, 10:13 PM
I don't see that. What Acts says it that broke bread together daity, joined together as a community, shared all their common goods, prayed and worshiped together and then went to the Temple to preach the Gospel. That does not sound like the Mosaic Law to me. I will say the change in keeping the law was progressive. Changing 1500 years of practice takes time to change. That is why Jesus called Paul, and taught him Himself so that he could reveal the mystery of the Gospel.

The Law was changed gradually now? Because revelation of the mystery of the gospel alters the qualifications and terms to be saved from what came previously? These conditions and forms and practice are ended because His incarnation allows us a free pass?



How is Jesus saying "this is My Blood of the New Covenant which is shed for many for the forgiveness of sins", speaking from silence?

Until you have Him teaching and preaching that the Law was changed or even abolished then you have only silence. As you alluded, the greater part of the Torah was establishing this perfect Law both in function and form and in great detail. So any alteration would also be itemized and need clarification. It was FALSE testimony that claimed Paul taught there was a change in the law.

You are correct however in that change took time and was progressive. Much was added and removed by man's arrogance and traditions evolving into a most idolatrous counterfeit. Same thing happened in the OT.

But He taught think NOT He came to change or destroy the Law.

In fact, they killed Him because He was restoring the original.

He answered "What must I do to be saved?" with "keep the commandments".

He taught do what "if you love me"?

New covenant, new contract, but same terms--namely trust and obey.




Peter ate with the Gentiles. Jesus said what goes into the body cannot make one unclean and then God confirmed it to Peter when He let down the sheet full of unclean animals and told him to eat - 3 times.

And all 3 times Peter refused as it was unclean food. Troubled by the vision, he finally gets it. It has nothing to do with his finally being able to eat bacon, but as he explains, the Gentiles were no longer unclean and should be included.


Jesus died at Passover so of course the new covenant was not in effect until He died. To keep the feast was His desire not to end it.

Sabbath and feast keeping is included in Paul's exhortation we follow him as he followed Him...in everything. What's that popular phrase? WWJD...certainly not eat Sunday ham.


Paul lived in many communities during his ministry and mostly with the Gentiles. Having written that "But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse" I hardly doubt that Paul was "kosher". You do understand that "kosher" is not the same thing as what is written in the Mosaic Law?

Had you bothered to read the article that starts this thread you would see not only did he keep the old law tradition but instructed Gentiles to come back the next Sabbath to hear more about the good news. He did not say come back tomorrow the "Lord's day".

You would have also read how Acts 15 establishes 4 things required of Gentiles crowding the synagogues on Sabbaths to hear the Law, 3 of these dealt with dietary restrictions.

Ironically these restriction were less about being saved and more about "social manners". You see, even before that crises, true believers have always known trying to keep the Law does not save you but you wish to try and keep the Law because you believe you are saved. It's out of gratitude for what was done.

Noah believed first then obeyed building an ark. Abraham had faith and then was obedient even to circumcision. Moses too was already in route to carry out his mission when he was circumcised.

Faith incites obedience, a rebellion from a lawless world.


Passover could not be maintained. It was completely satisfied in Christ. You don't "maintain" the shadows when the Light casts no shadows.

Tell that to Paul who maintained it and Pentecost as well which depends on a count from Passover.

Oh, and well, he did write there ARE shadows and not the past tense WERE.

clefty
August 27th, 2016, 11:00 PM
Peter did not "keep kosher". But I will say, you have quite the sense of humor if you think so. Maybe he kept those extra dishes in his knapsack :rotfl:

Ha...so do you, thinking Paul would forsake Yah's Law, calendar, and tradition to take up man's. He even shaved his head to prove he wasn't teaching a change of the Law.

Your joke is especially funny as the rabbinic tradition for two sets of plates was developed centuries after Paul hurried to Jerusalem with his knapsack for the Passover.

http://seedofabraham.net/Kosher-Biblical-vs-Jewish.pdf

clefty
August 27th, 2016, 11:29 PM
Yeah, but at least it's English.

Right, because salvation is from the British.

King's English had it as Iesus.

steko
August 28th, 2016, 12:02 AM
Right, because salvation is from the British.

King's English had it as Iesus.

...and the circa 200 BC Septuagint Greek has it as Iesous.

clefty
August 28th, 2016, 06:05 AM
...and the circa 200 BC Septuagint Greek has it as Iesous.

Those seventy made other errors...

But hey, translatin' ain't easy.

TweetyBird
August 28th, 2016, 09:19 AM
Until you have Him teaching and preaching that the Law was changed or even abolished then you have only silence. As you alluded, the greater part of the Torah was establishing this perfect Law both in function and form and in great detail. So any alteration would also be itemized and need clarification. It was FALSE testimony that claimed Paul taught there was a change in the law.

Jesus taught a new covenant law - all through the Gospels. There was a change in the Law, when Jesus died for the sins of mankind. The Mosaic Law Covenant was founded upon the shed blood of animals. We are no longer under that Covenant.


You are correct however in that change took time and was progressive. Much was added and removed by man's arrogance and traditions evolving into a most idolatrous counterfeit. Same thing happened in the OT.

The Gospel of Christ was founded upon Him, the apostles and prophets. All throughout the NT, the New Covenant is taught - a brand new law, never heard before. The count of commandments is over 1000.


But He taught think NOT He came to change or destroy the Law.

He did change it. He became the High Priest of Melchizedek, replacing the Levitical Priesthood. He replaced the sacrificial system upon which the entire Mosaic Law rested.


In fact, they killed Him because He was restoring the original.

No, they killed Him because He taught a new commandments, called Himself God, and called out the wickedness and hypocrisy of the religious leaders. Then they found false witnesses to bring charges of sedition against Rome to the Roman authorities. That is why Rome eventually took Him to the cross.


He answered "What must I do to be saved?" with "keep the commandments".

It wasn't enough was it? Because Jesus told him to sell everything and follow Him. That is not "Torah".


He taught do what "if you love me"?

New covenant, new contract, but same terms--namely trust and obey.

No, not the same terms at all. The terms of the old covenant was to sacrifice animals for the atonement of sin.






And all 3 times Peter refused as it was unclean food.

Which is why God told him 3 times. He was a blockhead :bang: He finally got it though, because we know later he ate and hung with the Gentiles.



Troubled by the vision, he finally gets it. It has nothing to do with his finally being able to eat bacon, but as he explains, the Gentiles were no longer unclean and should be included.

Do you think God was telling Peter to eat the Gentiles for din-din? :nori::TomO:


To keep the feast was His desire not to end it.

No, not to keep the feast. That is not what He said at all. He said to take wine and bread to celebrate His death till He comes. That is not Passover.


Sabbath and feast keeping is included in Paul's exhortation we follow him as he followed Him...in everything. What's that popular phrase? WWJD...certainly not eat Sunday ham.

Food has nothing to do with the Kingdom of Heaven. As Jesus said, nothing is unclean that goes into the body, but what comes out the other end. What is unclean are the thoughts and evil intents found in the heart.




Had you bothered to read the article that starts this thread you would see not only did he keep the old law tradition but instructed Gentiles to come back the next Sabbath to hear more about the good news. He did not say come back tomorrow the "Lord's day".

Believers did not go back to the synagogue on the Sabbath to hear Moses. They went to preach the Gospel. And just like today, if you go into a synagogue and attempt to preach Jesus they will kick you out.


You would have also read how Acts 15 establishes 4 things required of Gentiles crowding the synagogues on Sabbaths to hear the Law, 3 of these dealt with dietary restrictions.

Nope - believing Gentiles were not "crowding into the synagogues to hear Moses". The Gentiles were considered UNCLEAN, remember? Acts 15 says nothing about a requirement for Gentiles to attend synagogues or observing the Sabbath. Nothing like that is listed in the four commandments given. Around 15 years later it is again confirmed that the Gentile believers were ONLY given those FOUR commandments [Acts 21].


Ironically these restriction were less about being saved and more about "social manners". You see, even before that crises, true believers have always known trying to keep the Law does not save you but you wish to try and keep the Law because you believe you are saved. It's out of gratitude for what was done.

As early at the second century, people actually believed Paul and Jesus, that the Mosaic Law was done away with and the new covenant Law of Christ was in place - the Gospel of Christ and living for Him, without the observance of the Mosaic Law. It had vanished away per 2 Cor 3.


Noah believed first then obeyed building an ark. Abraham had faith and then was obedient even to circumcision. Moses too was already in route to carry out his mission when he was circumcised.

Moses even refused to circumcise his sons, and an angel was sent to kill him. His wife, Zipporah, stepped in and did it herself and called him a bloody husband.



Tell that to Paul who maintained it and Pentecost as well which depends on a count from Passover.

No, Paul did not maintain Passover. He taught the Passover was fulfilled/satisfied in Christ. Jesus is the Passover Lamb. One cannot keep Passover until they take literal leaven out of their dwelling place, and kill a lamb for the atonement for sin.

Paul stated clearly that when he was with the Jews He kept the Law to win them to Christ, but when he was with the Gentiles, he did not keep the Law to win them to Christ. That is defintely rebellion according to the Mosaic Law, so in reality, he was not keeping the Law at all.

Deuteronomy 16:2
Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the Lord thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the Lord shall choose to place his name there.

1 Corinthians 5:7
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:


Oh, and well, he did write there ARE shadows and not the past tense WERE.

From the perspective of the Mosaic Law. Paul uses future tense from the past looking forward often in reference to the Mosaic Law.

Jesus is the Light of the World, in Him there is no shadow. He accomplished and satisfied the Law of Moses Covenant 100% and freed all who are in Him from the death, bondage, yoke, and curse of the Law for all eternity. It is over. Done. Accomplished. It is Finished. The veil of the Temple was torn in two, exposing the Holy of Holies, pulling down the partition and reconciling us to God through His blood. We are free from the Law in Him.

TweetyBird
August 28th, 2016, 09:20 AM
Those seventy made other errors...

But hey, translatin' ain't easy.

The 72 Jewish Scribes only translated the first five books into Greek, not the entire Tanakh.

jamie
August 28th, 2016, 09:53 AM
Paul did not admonish anyone to keep Passover. You keep Passover by sacrificing a lamb and painting one's door posts and removing leaven from your dwelling place. Paul said to remove leaven from yourself. That is NOT Passover at all, in the least. He also said that Jesus was the Passover, which completely puts to death Passover according to the Mosaic Law Covenant.


A new Passover had to be instituted because the Mosaic Passover required males to be circumcised which is done away with in the NT.

Luke 22:14-20 When the hour had come, He sat down and the twelve apostles with Him. Then He said to them, “With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer for I say to you, I will no longer eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”

Then He took the cup and gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among yourselves for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it and gave it to them saying, “This is My body which is given for you, do this in remembrance of Me.”

Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.

The Lord has not yet come for the kingdom.

TweetyBird
August 28th, 2016, 11:13 AM
A new Passover had to be instituted because the Mosaic Passover required males to be circumcised which is done away with in the NT.

Luke 22:14-20 When the hour had come, He sat down and the twelve apostles with Him. Then He said to them, “With fervent desire I have desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer for I say to you, I will no longer eat of it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God.”

Then He took the cup and gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among yourselves for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”

And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it and gave it to them saying, “This is My body which is given for you, do this in remembrance of Me.”

Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.

The Lord has not yet come for the kingdom.

The word pesach, translated as Passover - means sacrifice aka the lamb. So unless you are going to redo Christ's sacrifice every spring, then there is no "new passover".

Exodus 12:21
Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.

Mark 14:12
And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover.

Luke 22:7
Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.

1 Corinthians 5:7
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

jamie
August 28th, 2016, 11:56 AM
Exodus 12:21
Then Moses called for all the elders of Israel, and said unto them, Draw out and take you a lamb according to your families, and kill the passover.


Was there a Lamb of God?

1 Corinthians 5:7-8 For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast.

The feast of Passover is seven days during which unleavened bread is to be eaten.

Revelation 5:12 Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom,
and strength and honor and glory and blessing!

TweetyBird
August 28th, 2016, 03:07 PM
Was there a Lamb of God?
You don't know?


1 Corinthians 5:7-8 For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us. Therefore let us keep the feast.

That is not what Paul said. He said to "keep the feast" by taking the leaven out of ones self. He was not referring to the Passover as literal, but instead of Passover proper - with the slaying of a lamb and other commandments, one keeps Passover in their hearts by keeping the leaven out of it and remembering that Jesus was our Passover Lamb. He was not suggesting that they keep a literal Passover. I am sorry you are having a hard time understanding this. We are supposed to be remembering Jesus death with bread and wine till He comes. That is His commandment, not keeping the Mosaic Passover.


The feast of Passover is seven days during which unleavened bread is to be eaten.

Paul was not referring to that was he? He said, "Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." ---- That is not the literal Passover of the Mosaic Law.


Revelation 5:12 Worthy is the Lamb who was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom,
and strength and honor and glory and blessing!

Great verse, but what this has to do with you wanting to celebrate Passover with a slain lamb and take all leaven out of your bread and your house, is incomprehensible.

chair
August 28th, 2016, 04:12 PM
Do Christians believe that the Passover lamb was a sin-offering?

jamie
August 28th, 2016, 05:31 PM
Do Christians believe that the Passover lamb was a sin-offering?


No, the Passover blood was only for the firstborn to preserve them from the second death.

The blood of Jesus was for reconciliation with the Father for those who choose to be reconciled through the remission of sins by repentance and immersion in water to walk in a new life with Christ.

The people of Christ have been given the ministry of reconciliation to all who will come to Christ to have their sins remitted during this age.

Only by blood could Jesus enter the heavenly Holy Place as our High Priest. The Aaronic priesthood had to do this yearly into the physical Holy Place, but Jesus only once into the heavenly Holy Place.

Jesus Christ is our atonement sacrifice.

TweetyBird
August 29th, 2016, 09:39 AM
Do Christians believe that the Passover lamb was a sin-offering?

Yes. Passover and Unleavened Bread were combined into the same feast. The blood of the lamb was shed.

Num 28
16 And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the Lord. 17 And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten. 18 In the first day shall be an holy convocation; ye shall do no manner of servile work therein: 19 but ye shall offer a sacrifice made by fire for a burnt offering unto the Lord; two young bullocks, and one ram, and seven lambs of the first year: they shall be unto you without blemish: 20 and their meat offering shall be of flour mingled with oil: three tenth deals shall ye offer for a bullock, and two tenth deals for a ram; 21 a several tenth deal shalt thou offer for every lamb, throughout the seven lambs: 22 and one goat for a sin offering, to make an atonement for you. 23 Ye shall offer these beside the burnt offering in the morning, which is for a continual burnt offering. 24 After this manner ye shall offer daily, throughout the seven days, the meat of the sacrifice made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the Lord: it shall be offered beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering. 25 And on the seventh day ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work.

Matthew 26:17
Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

Mark 14:12
And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?

Luke 22:1
Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover. 7 Then came the day of unleavened bread, when the passover must be killed.

1 Corinthians 5:7
Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

clefty
August 30th, 2016, 04:23 AM
Do Christians believe that the Passover lamb was a sin-offering?

They shouldn't. It is a thank offering. A thanks for having His wrath pass over because we obeyed.

A thanks for leading us out of the bondage of sin.



What's more, no sacrifice was for intentional sin...

Numbers 15: 30 "'But an individual who does something wrong intentionally, whether a citizen or a foreigner, is blaspheming ADONAI. That person will be cut off from his people.

Hebrews 9:7)

7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance.

Ben Masada
August 30th, 2016, 02:14 PM
When Did the Disciples of Jesus Stop Observing the Old Testament Laws?



When they died. Evidence of what I am saying is in Luke 16:29-31 when Jesus warned his disciples to listen to "Moses" aka the Law. Why? Because as long as heaven and earth were in existence, the Law would never pass away. (Matthew 5:17-19)

clefty
August 31st, 2016, 11:30 AM
When they died.

LOL...

Wonder what those faithful few would say about what's become from that assembly who followed "the Way".

Ben Masada
August 31st, 2016, 12:09 PM
LOL...

Wonder what those faithful few would say about what's become from that assembly who followed "the Way".

"The Way" was a term used to describe the Sect of the Nazarenes a branch of Judaism organized by the Apostles of Jesus. New Way because the Sect of the Nazarenes was the most recent sect of Judaism to have risen in the First Century. (Acts 9:1,2) Part of the followers of "The Way," joined the war of BarCorba against Rome in 134 ACE and were almost totally decimated in the process while the other part met the same end by joining the Church of Paul and the Sect met its end as a Jewish branch.

clefty
September 1st, 2016, 04:27 AM
"The Way" was a term used to describe the Sect of the Nazarenes a brunch of Judaism organized by the Apostles of Jesus. New Way because the Sect of the Nazarenes was the most recent sect of Judaism to have risen in the First Century. (Acts 9:1,2) Part of the followers of "The Way," joined the war of BarCorba against Rome in 134 ACE and were almost totally decimated in the process while the other part met the same end by joining the Church of Paul and the Sect met its end as a Jewish brunch.

Lol...Brunch? They were the brunch or lox was bad?

I think you mean branch. Many walked away when they thought He meant eat Him...thankfully He clarified it as the Spirit filled words He spoke.

He never made all meat clean to eat. Human included.

Caino
September 1st, 2016, 06:40 AM
When Did the Disciples of Jesus
Stop Observing the Old Testament Laws?

"While Jesus was on earth, he and his disciples practiced the religion that God gave to the Israelites through Moses. The guidelines they followed were found primarily in the Torah*, which is the first five books of the Old Testament -- the writings of Moses. The Torah contains a variety of information including history, the Ten Commandments, and instructions pertaining to finance, government, family, health, farming, dress, feasts, and worship.

It was at some time after the death of Jesus that Christians stopped observing the Old Testament laws. Exactly when that change occurred is not clear in the Bible. Many people believe the change was made by Jesus himself immediately after the resurrection. However, there is compelling evidence in the book of Acts that the change did not occur until much later.

This article examines all the evidence in the book of Acts that indicates whether or not the apostles and early Christians were still following the Old Testament laws. The context of the story is important. It would be a good idea to read the whole book of Acts to understand the passages covered in this study.

...


Acts 6:11-14 Then they secretly persuaded some men to say, "We have heard Stephen speak words of blasphemy against Moses and against God." So they stirred up the people and the elders and the teachers of the law. They seized Stephen and brought him before the Sanhedrin. They produced false witnesses, who testified, "This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law. For we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us."

The enemies of Stephen would not have needed the false witnesses if Stephen had been disobeying the laws of the Old Testament. In that case, truthful witnesses would have easily condemned him before the Sanhedrin. The fact that they needed false witnesses to accuse Stephen implies that he was actually obedient to the laws of the Torah."

http://www.fogwhistle.com/acts/evidence.html

I find this study a most compelling argument that those assemblies following "the Way" in that first century were nothing like the Church or churches today...

Why would Paul believe live and practice one way and teach another?

Yahushua was clear "Think not that I have come to destroy the Law..."

The Law remains else why would we need Grace? Besides, what better way can we show our gratitude for what was done for us than to obey?

We wish to keep it, not in order to become saved, but because we have faith we are saved...through Him.

Like the law of gravity, we don't keep it, we merely understand it keeps us...


The Father revealed in the life of the Son on earth demonstrated that the OT laws were man made, they developed in the evolution of Judaism, not given as directives from God.

Early in their association with Jesus the apostles began learning about the loving God revealed in Christ.

Today, in contemporary Judaism, the Jews just naturally progressed away from the more primitive laws of their ancestors although some of the more backward Jews hope for a rebuilding of the Temple and a return to sacrifices and stoning people to death for the violations of the Leviticus laws.

Other religions that had similar, man made laws also naturally stopped practicing the older traditions.

clefty
September 3rd, 2016, 04:42 AM
The Father revealed in the life of the Son on earth demonstrated that the OT laws were man made, they developed in the evolution of Judaism, not given as directives from God.

Early in their association with Jesus the apostles began learning about the loving God revealed in Christ.

Today, in contemporary Judaism, the Jews just naturally progressed away from the more primitive laws of their ancestors although some of the more backward Jews hope for a rebuilding of the Temple and a return to sacrifices and stoning people to death for the violations of the Leviticus laws.

Other religions that had similar, man made laws also naturally stopped practicing the older traditions.

First OT laws are abolished, now they are man made.

Wow...

So when He says obey Him like He obeyed His Fsther's commands, He meant His Father's man made laws?

Caino
September 3rd, 2016, 06:26 AM
First OT laws are abolished, now they are man made.

Wow...

So when He says obey Him like He obeyed His Fsther's commands, He meant His Father's man made laws?

Notice, Jesus never said to abolish the OT law, he left them in Judaism. He didn't say stop practicing them, rather he taught a new and better way, leaving the old ways of evolved religion to die on the vine. Jesus didn't come here to be an-add on to Judaism, we aren't Christians who used to be Jews, or Christians who used to be Buddhist, or Hindus, or nature worshipers. We are disciples of Jesus with no theological need to justify converting from Judaism to Christianity as if that was a seamless transition.

But obviously there is this theological lineage born out of the need for the Jews who did leave Judaism to justify their conversion. Christian theology, the Christian religion, is brought to us by Jews who became disciples of Christ, so there is an influence of interpretation attached to the meaning of Jesus life.

clefty
September 3rd, 2016, 08:13 AM
Notice, Jesus never said to abolish the OT law, he left them in Judaism. He didn't say stop practicing them, rather he taught a new and better way, leaving the old ways of evolved religion to die on the vine. Jesus didn't come here to be an-add on to Judaism, we aren't Christians who used to be Jews, or Christians who used to be Buddhist, or Hindus, or nature worshipers. We are disciples of Jesus with no theological need to justify converting from Judaism to Christianity as if that was a seamless transition.

But obviously there is this theological lineage born out of the need for the Jews who did leave Judaism to justify their conversion. Christian theology, the Christian religion, is brought to us by Jews who became disciples of Christ, so there is an influence of interpretation attached to the meaning of Jesus life.

I do notice that and that He instructed we keep His commandments as He kept His Father's...see? Not man made.

True disciples of the Son are seamlessly in line with His Father's previous people...that church in the wilderness as Stephen phrased it before he was killed for restoring it.

Killed by the tribe in which a conspiracy was found. This tribe went on to rule and taxed its brothers to worship which started a civil war ending temporal Israel forever. This tribe added pharasaic/rabbinic traditions which needed reform and restoration a pruning to the point the branch was replaced in spiritual Israel.

Paul speaks of this as Gentiles were grafted in their place. And even biological laws dictate you can't graft an apple branch on an orange tree much less a pine tree. The root and trunk nourish the branch, the branch doesn't change the root.

That a tribe spun away from it's origins and bore idolatrous fruit or no fruit at all is why it was cursed and replaced. This tribe was merely a perverted continuance from previous stock. And the counterfeiting continues.

Imagine if Christian Europe had insisted on keeping OT laws understanding it was no longer this Jew vs Gentile but in Him for all of us...His way. Imagine no usury and debt forgiveness for us today in accordance to Torah. Alas the conspiracy against Him remains in place as prophecied. And those who would change both times and laws seem to be prevailing...for a little while yet.

But "come out of her My people" for "here are those that keep the commandments of Yah"

Caino
September 3rd, 2016, 09:31 AM
I do notice that and that He instructed we keep His commandments as He kept His Father's...see? Not man made.

True disciples of the Son are seamlessly in line with His Father's previous people...that church in the wilderness as Stephen phrased it before he was killed for restoring it.

Killed by the tribe in which a conspiracy was found. This tribe went on to rule and taxed its brothers to worship which started a civil war ending temporal Israel forever. This tribe added pharasaic/rabbinic traditions which needed reform and restoration a pruning to the point the branch was replaced in spiritual Israel.

Paul speaks of this as Gentiles were grafted in their place. And even biological laws dictate you can't graft an apple branch on an orange tree much less a pine tree. The root and trunk nourish the branch, the branch doesn't change the root.

That a tribe spun away from it's origins and bore idolatrous fruit or no fruit at all is why it was cursed and replaced. This tribe was merely a perverted continuance from previous stock. And the counterfeiting continues.

Imagine if Christian Europe had insisted on keeping OT laws understanding it was no longer this Jew vs Gentile but in Him for all of us...His way. Imagine no usury and debt forgiveness for us today in accordance to Torah. Alas the conspiracy against Him remains in place as prophecied. And those who would change both times and laws seem to be prevailing...for a little while yet.

But "come out of her My people" for "here are those that keep the commandments of Yah"

Are you referring to the 10 commandments? Or the Levitical laws? The Ten were from God, then Jesus expanded that even more. The Levite laws were fro Moses as far as we can tell, those were the man made laws.

jamie
September 3rd, 2016, 09:54 AM
The Levite laws were fro Moses as far as we can tell, those were the man made laws.


Is that why they were referred as God's law?

Nehemiah 10:29 ...these joined with their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse and an oath to walk in God’s Law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and His ordinances and His statutes.

clefty
September 3rd, 2016, 10:36 AM
Are you referring to the 10 commandments? Or the Levitical laws? The Ten were from God, then Jesus expanded that even more. The Levite laws were fro Moses as far as we can tell, those were the man made laws.

So man made his own penalties payments and provisions for breaking Yah's law?

And determined for himself how and in what form and manner the worship which pleased Him?

And how to best represent to others Him, His way?

Caino
September 3rd, 2016, 10:42 AM
Sure, Just like Jesus told the apostles that whatever they bound on earth would be recognized in heaven.

Religion and the values and laws evolve among men.

patrick jane
September 3rd, 2016, 10:58 AM
I do notice that and that He instructed we keep His commandments as He kept His Father's...see? Not man made.

True disciples of the Son are seamlessly in line with His Father's previous people...that church in the wilderness as Stephen phrased it before he was killed for restoring it.

Killed by the tribe in which a conspiracy was found. This tribe went on to rule and taxed its brothers to worship which started a civil war ending temporal Israel forever. This tribe added pharasaic/rabbinic traditions which needed reform and restoration a pruning to the point the branch was replaced in spiritual Israel.

Paul speaks of this as Gentiles were grafted in their place. And even biological laws dictate you can't graft an apple branch on an orange tree much less a pine tree. The root and trunk nourish the branch, the branch doesn't change the root.

That a tribe spun away from it's origins and bore idolatrous fruit or no fruit at all is why it was cursed and replaced. This tribe was merely a perverted continuance from previous stock. And the counterfeiting continues.

Imagine if Christian Europe had insisted on keeping OT laws understanding it was no longer this Jew vs Gentile but in Him for all of us...His way. Imagine no usury and debt forgiveness for us today in accordance to Torah. Alas the conspiracy against Him remains in place as prophecied. And those who would change both times and laws seem to be prevailing...for a little while yet.

But "come out of her My people" for "here are those that keep the commandments of Yah"
A grafted tree -
click to enlarge
24714

Ben Masada
September 3rd, 2016, 03:20 PM
Lol...Brunch? They were the brunch or lox was bad?

I think you mean branch. Many walked away when they thought He meant eat Him...thankfully He clarified it as the Spirit filled words He spoke.

He never made all meat clean to eat. Human included.

Clefty, I am sorry and I thank you for reminding me of my mistake with brunch instead of branch.

clefty
September 3rd, 2016, 04:14 PM
Sure, Just like Jesus told the apostles that whatever they bound on earth would be recognized in heaven.

Religion and the values and laws evolve among men.

That binding thingy is traditionally viewed as whoever is forgiven or invited into the citizenship of the kingdom will be welcomed.

Keys were given to the kingdom and that is understood as the dogma or teachings. The keys to knowledge and understanding.

Now do you suppose that changing the keys will allow those altered keys to open the locks they were intended?

Do you suppose the disciples desiring to follow His will to their torture or death wouldnt realize they had the power to make compromises or changes? They didn't.



It remains to be on earth as it is in heaven not in heaven as it is made on earth.

clefty
September 3rd, 2016, 04:30 PM
A grafted tree -
click to enlarge
24714

Yup great image of European Sabbath keepers and Ethiopian...

Both remain true to the root and stock...


BTW those are both apples...ya dig?

There is only one way...Through Him as He did

clefty
September 3rd, 2016, 04:32 PM
Clefty, I am sorry and I thank you for reminding me of my mistake with brunch instead of branch.

No worries buddy! And thank you for a humerous teaching moment that humans are not considered food though made of flesh. It is laughable to think He made all meat food.

Or offered Himself as a Sunday brunch...

Happy sabbath!

Caino
September 3rd, 2016, 05:53 PM
That binding thingy is traditionally viewed as whoever is forgiven or invited into the citizenship of the kingdom will be welcomed.

Keys were given to the kingdom and that is understood as the dogma or teachings. The keys to knowledge and understanding.

Now do you suppose that changing the keys will allow those altered keys to open the locks they were intended?

Do you suppose the disciples desiring to follow His will to their torture or death wouldnt realize they had the power to make compromises or changes? They didn't.



It remains to be on earth as it is in heaven not in heaven as it is made on earth.

I'm not getting the criptic talk, can you be more clear about your point?

clefty
September 3rd, 2016, 06:37 PM
I'm not getting the criptic talk, can you be more clear about your point?

LoL doubt it but will try...

Your statement that man makes laws and values is not entirely wrong.

But if/because they are not given by Yah Himself those man made traditions are idolatrous.

Loosening and binding are forgiving and sealing souls to the kingdom.

You seem to think that permission was given to the apostle's to make changes to teaching and dogma (keys) and heaven (where the locks are) will ok it.

But if you alter a key it won't work in its intended lock.

The disciples were persecuted even killed for their obedience. Had they believed they could compromise and make changes they would of, as it was ok to do so. But they didn't. They understood His Law was immutable thus kept the festivals and even dietary restrictions.

The current Church began to change long after those obedient perished. So you are correct that man does make his own law. But it is counterfeit from the original.

Were we able to change times and laws here on earth we would not have been taught to pray on earth as it is in heaven. We follow heaven not it us.

There are those however who feel they can change times and laws. They are anti Christ.

The opening piece (hope you enjoyed) confirms that the early church did NOT teach or practice a change in time and law as man can not pay his own penalty for breaking Yah's law.

Caino
September 4th, 2016, 04:53 AM
LoL doubt it but will try...

Your statement that man makes laws and values is not entirely wrong.

But if/because they are not given by Yah Himself those man made traditions are idolatrous.

Loosening and binding are forgiving and sealing souls to the kingdom.

You seem to think that permission was given to the apostle's to make changes to teaching and dogma (keys) and heaven (where the locks are) will ok it.

But if you alter a key it won't work in its intended lock.

The disciples were persecuted even killed for their obedience. Had they believed they could compromise and make changes they would of, as it was ok to do so. But they didn't. They understood His Law was immutable thus kept the festivals and even dietary restrictions.

The current Church began to change long after those obedient perished. So you are correct that man does make his own law. But it is counterfeit from the original.

Were we able to change times and laws here on earth we would not have been taught to pray on earth as it is in heaven. We follow heaven not it us.

There are those however who feel they can change times and laws. They are anti Christ.

The opening piece (hope you enjoyed) confirms that the early church did NOT teach or practice a change in time and law as man can not pay his own penalty for breaking Yah's law.

Ok, that's more clear. I was just confused about the commandments which Moses expanded from 7 to 10, or the Leviticus laws which did not come form God but from man. When the story was retold it was written as if God set up everything. Man is given autonomy. Man establishes customs which become traditions and in later generations thet become sacred. The writings about those sacred customs, handed down through the generations become the scripture of holy men and eventually "The Word of God". Paul's simple letters of corospondance went through that process of Bibliolatry.


Before the rejection and tragic cross, Jesus taught the original gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven. Salvation by the faith based realization that all men and women are the sons and daughters of God. God forgives the sincere who repent and in turn forgive others. Had the Jews received Jesus and his original gospel they would be preaching the gospel of the Son of God today from Jerusalem. But we know what happened, so the gospel went west to the Pagan world who made it their own.

There was the religion of Jesus, Christianity became a religion about Jesus, modified by mans limitations and sacrifice minded preconceptions.

clefty
September 4th, 2016, 05:40 AM
Ok, that's more clear. I was just confused about the commandments which Moses expanded from 7 to 10, or the Leviticus laws which did not come form God but from man. When the story was retold it was written as if God set up everything.

Could you now be less cryptic and make this more clear please?


Man is given autonomy. Man establishes customs which become traditions and in later generations thet become sacred. The writings about those sacred customs, handed down through the generations become the scripture of holy men and eventually "The Word of God". Paul's simple letters of corospondance went through that process of Bibliolatry. so where does the line for you divide between His and man's? As ALL of it is written by human hands.



Before the rejection and tragic cross, Jesus taught the original gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven. Salvation by the faith based realization that all men and women are the sons and daughters of God. God forgives the sincere who repent and in turn forgive others. Hope you can clarify this.


Had the Jews received Jesus and his original gospel they would be preaching the gospel of the Son of God today from Jerusalem. yes they did reject it but why? Are you implying their rejection was for its "man made" sacrificial system? Or because this original gospel you speak of is more "rather mercy than sacrifice" and would eliminate its "man made" sacrificial system?


But we know what happened, so the gospel went west to the Pagan world who made it their own. initially yes as the opening article you seem to avoid proves Gentiles responded to the accepted gospel of Yahushua as not all rejected it. But subsequent changes were made by wolves and snakes as warned and thus another gospel was progressively developed and taught. This counterfeit gospel was actually made for pagan Europe by rejecting most of the Torah its Levitical laws being too OT and well, too jooish.


There was the religion of Jesus, Christianity became a religion about Jesus, modified by mans limitations and sacrifice minded preconceptions. oh never mind you see something there too so please clarify...

Especially about the Moses making it 7 to 10 part...oh, and the Levitical laws are made by man because I am constantly told the Sabbath is jooish and such nonsense.

Caino
September 4th, 2016, 06:35 AM
Could you now be less cryptic and make this more clear please?

so where does the line for you divide between His and man's? As ALL of it is written by human hands.


Hope you can clarify this.

yes they did reject it but why? Are you implying their rejection was for its "man made" sacrificial system? Or because this original gospel you speak of is more "rather mercy than sacrifice" and would eliminate its "man made" sacrificial system?

initially yes as the opening article you seem to avoid proves Gentiles responded to the accepted gospel of Yahushua as not all rejected it. But subsequent changes were made by wolves and snakes as warned and thus another gospel was progressively developed and taught. This counterfeit gospel was actually made for pagan Europe by rejecting most of the Torah its Levitical laws being too OT and well, too jooish.

oh never mind you see something there too so please clarify...

Especially about the Moses making it 7 to 10 part...oh, and the Levitical laws are made by man because I am constantly told the Sabbath is jooish and such nonsense.

They rejected Jesus because their Father was the devil and the darkness hates the light. The truth of Jesus' gospel by default discredited their self righteous system of traditional barrenness, the chosen people arrogance, the profitable religious system which held the common man in bondage. The truth that God is not simply the national God of the Israelites, depicted in the highly exaggerated history revisionism known as the Torah, rather God is the creator and spiritual Father of each individual on earth, this was very offensive to the self important. So it was taken away from them, their house left desolate, leaving the false prophets to their stubborn demise.

It's hard to believe I know, but there was religion before Moses, before the complete recasting of Hebrew history in Babylonn.

clefty
September 4th, 2016, 07:13 AM
They rejected Jesus because their Father was the devil and the darkness hates the light. The truth of Jesus' gospel by default discredited their self righteous system of traditional barrenness, the chosen people arrogance, the profitable religious system which held the common man in bondage. The truth that God is not simply the national God of the Israelites, depicted in the highly exaggerated history revisionism known as the Torah, rather God is the creator and spiritual Father of each individual on earth, this was very offensive to the self important. So it was taken away from them, their house left desolate, leaving the false prophets to their stubborn demise.

It's hard to believe I know, but there was religion before Moses, before the complete recasting of Hebrew history in Babylonn.

Not hard at all. But there remains Yah and He made us and not we Him. His are the Laws that keep and protect us and His also the method and form by which we are restored to Him despite any counterfeit we may produce.

And I regret you avoid so much...

jamie
September 4th, 2016, 07:38 AM
The truth that God is not simply the national God of the Israelites...


Sure he is. God made no covenant with the nations other than through Abraham.

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob...

Caino
September 4th, 2016, 10:21 AM
Sure he is. God made no covenant with the nations other than through Abraham.

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob...

Israel wasn't a nation when God made his agreement with Abraham. Subsequently, after the so called Israelites were taken captive in Babylon, they rewrote their history, converting an ordinary secular history into a miraculous fiction. That's when their nationalist pride produced the chosen people arrogance which is reflected in Judao-Christian theology. They developed erroneous ideas about the coming Son, a Jewish Messiah. Those ideas were a stumbling block when the Son of God came in the flesh.

Judaism and Paganism contaminated Christian theology leading to the sect divided, dying Christian religion of today.

Caino
September 4th, 2016, 10:24 AM
Not hard at all. But there remains Yah and He made us and not we Him. His are the Laws that keep and protect us and His also the method and form by which we are restored to Him despite any counterfeit we may produce.

And I regret you avoid so much...

Yahweh was the nature God of the Siani volcano, one of thousands of such Gods of the desert tribes.It was after the Exodus that Moseses nomads settled on the name for their God.

Don't ask questions if you are unwilling to accept the answer.

jamie
September 4th, 2016, 11:11 AM
Israel wasn't a nation when God made his agreement with Abraham.


Maybe it was a good guess on Christ's part.

jamie
September 4th, 2016, 11:18 AM
Yahweh was the nature God of the Siani volcano


Mt. Horeb is not a volcano.

clefty
September 4th, 2016, 12:17 PM
Yahweh was the nature God of the Siani volcano, one of thousands of such Gods of the desert tribes.It was after the Exodus that Moseses nomads settled on the name for their God.

Don't ask questions if you are unwilling to accept the answer.

Ummm...I was asking questions because I was, and am, willing to get answers. Accept? well, do tell more...

But thanks for finally answering...kinda...

Just like I am also waiting for more from those that claim Jesus and His gospel was a fictional character created by Romans so clever as to pacify militant joos and seduce reluctant pagans.

Ben Masada
September 4th, 2016, 12:21 PM
No worries buddy! And thank you for a humerous teaching moment that humans are not considered food though made of flesh. It is laughable to think He made all meat food.

Or offered Himself as a Sunday brunch...

Happy sabbath!

Indeed, that's funny!

clefty
September 4th, 2016, 12:23 PM
Sure he is. God made no covenant with the nations other than through Abraham.

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob...

Caino did say "God was not simply the national God of the Israelites..."

Which is true...He is more...

Paul preached the same on Mars hill that all nations were made by Him...in order to seek Him.

But some claim Paul a spy traitor infiltrator...

Caino
September 4th, 2016, 02:26 PM
I never said any such thing. Jesus was the Son of God, he incarnate amount the Jews. The Jews didn't like his religion so they put him through a fake trial and convinced Pilate to kill him. But Jesus resurrected himself as promised. The Jews don't like the resurrected Jesus either, so they are still waiting for their idea of a Messiah.

Ben Masada
September 4th, 2016, 02:57 PM
I never said any such thing. Jesus was the Son of God, he incarnate amount the Jews. The Jews didn't like his religion so they put him through a fake trial and convinced Pilate to kill him. But Jesus resurrected himself as promised. The Jews don't like the resurrected Jesus either, so they are still waiting for their idea of a Messiah.

Believe it or not but I have not found a single true statement in this post above. It is simply amazing!

Caino
September 4th, 2016, 03:55 PM
Believe it or not but I have not found a single true statement in this post above. It is simply amazing!
It's not that it's not true, you just don't believe.
The world has moved on,

patrick jane
September 4th, 2016, 04:05 PM
Paul preached the same on Mars hill that all nations were made by Him...in order to seek Him.

But some claim Paul a spy traitor infiltrator...
You are very misinformed about Paul, clefty

Caino
September 4th, 2016, 06:09 PM
Old Testament Jews and Christians alike live almost exclusively in the dim and distant past. They talk constantly about an exaggerated age of bizarre, miraculous events. But then there is reality. Today, in literalville, there is a Mosque built on top of the Temple Mount, it's been there since 691. And but for a brief occupation by crusaders, it's been a Muslim holy site for over 1300 years!


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/Colter/dome_zpstlkavpns.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/Colter/media/dome_zpstlkavpns.jpg.html)

Ben Masada
September 5th, 2016, 03:45 PM
It's not that it's not true, you just don't believe.
The world has moved on,

Not into evolution of the mind of man I assure you.

Ben Masada
September 5th, 2016, 03:49 PM
Old Testament Jews and Christians alike live almost exclusively in the dim and distant past. They talk constantly about an exaggerated age of bizarre, miraculous events. But then there is reality. Today, in literalville, there is a Mosque built on top of the Temple Mount, it's been there since 691. And but for a brief occupation by crusaders, it's been a Muslim holy site for over 1300 years!


http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y93/Colter/dome_zpstlkavpns.jpg (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/Colter/media/dome_zpstlkavpns.jpg.html)

Well my friend, the Creator of the universe has been the same since He caused the universe to exist. We are the ones who are expected to evolve.

clefty
September 5th, 2016, 06:43 PM
Well my friend, the Creator of the universe has been the same since He caused the universe to exist. We are the ones who are expected to evolve.

Evolve? Or die to self and grow in Him?

The word "Evolve" reminds me of evolution and the secular humanist notion of "might is right" then it's off on crusade or jihad or tikkun olan...all those that insist they are helping Him...

As if He needs human hands to build His home again...

but prophecy shows these arrogant and power hungry men will indeed continue to evolve...thinking Right needs might

and kill those like Stephen (and the other apostles) in defense of their grand temple...

Caino
September 6th, 2016, 11:25 AM
Well my friend, the Creator of the universe has been the same since He caused the universe to exist. We are the ones who are expected to evolve.
As far as Judausm is concerned, the movie isn't living up to the book.

clefty
September 6th, 2016, 07:53 PM
As far as Judausm is concerned, the movie isn't living up to the book.

Ha...Despite Hollywood?

As per usual, the book isn't really followed but its ending will need more than massive CGI.

And it can't be altered by those who say they are, and are not, but liars...

Caino
September 7th, 2016, 05:20 AM
Ha...Despite Hollywood?

As per usual, the book isn't really followed but its ending will need more than massive CGI.

And it can't be altered by those who say they are, and are not, but liars...

They followed the book when they rejected Jesus. Jesus wasn't the problem, their man made book with it's spectacular history revisionism was the problem.

clefty
September 8th, 2016, 04:19 AM
They followed the book when they rejected Jesus. Jesus wasn't the problem, their man made book with it's spectacular history revisionism was the problem.

In that study in the opening peice (did ya read it yet?) we see it was false witnesses who wished to slander the apostles with false claims that they taught the Law was changed, even ended.

Perhaps it's not the book itself but the spectacular revisionism of history is in the teaching and interpretations of it by others who would wish to deceive...

Caino
September 8th, 2016, 05:34 AM
In that study in the opening peice (did ya read it yet?) we see it was false witnesses who wished to slander the apostles with false claims that they taught the Law was changed, even ended.

Perhaps it's not the book itself but the spectacular revisionism of history is in the teaching and interpretations of it by others who would wish to deceive...

Had you been a Jew during the times of Jesus you would have rejected him as well unless his loving truth could have penetrated your dogma.

clefty
September 8th, 2016, 09:18 AM
Had you been a Jew during the times of Jesus you would have rejected him as well unless his loving truth could have penetrated your dogma.

And as the opening peice shows accepting Him didn't change the calendar or worship form or function or the Laws you wished to keep.

You would wish to live and do things as He did because you love Him.

Caino
September 8th, 2016, 09:57 AM
And as the opening peice shows accepting Him didn't change the calendar or worship form or function or the Laws you wished to keep.

You would wish to live and do things as He did because you love Him.

Sure it did, but just because the cage door is open doesn't mean the former captives feel comfortable just leaving.

Revealed religion occurs, such as the religion of Jesus, but the new converts to such invariably contaminate the new by their old forms and theories; thus Christianity became a religion about Jesus.

Hawkins
September 8th, 2016, 10:06 AM
gentiles - they need to follow the "LAW BY HEART" to act. Thus they have to act with conscience and moral code, even in the case of under the New Covenant. They are however expected to fail at some point for God's Grace to apply to save them. As the New Covenant by no means says that you can sin at will. You won't be judged by the measurement of Law though.

Similarly, the Jews need to observe Mosaic Law to the best of knowledge except for the part no longer necessary after the coming of Jesus, such as those laws of sacrifices. They still need to observe whatever characterized them as the JEWS.

They however have the advantage of choosing not to be a Jew. That is, if they choose not to observe the Mosaic Law, they are then actually the gentiles governed by conscience and moral code to act. God's Grace will pick up from where they failed the Mosaic Law if they choose to observe so, or where they failed as gentiles do if they choose not to observe.

Christians don't observe OT Laws (Mosaic Law) since the time when there are no longer Jews inside our churches. Conflicts occurred during the time when both Jewish and gentile Christians co-existed as the Jews demanded that the gentile Christians need to follow their laws to act. The apostles such as Paul and Peter had fought back to clarify this many times.

This is more about the scope of coverage of the old and new covenants. That is, how various covenants work for what scope (Jews or gentiles) of humans.

God's Truth
September 8th, 2016, 10:09 AM
gentiles - they need to follow the "LAW BY HEART" to act. Thus they have to act with conscience and moral code, even in the case of under the New Covenant. They are however expected to fail at some point for God's Grace to apply to save them. As the New Covenant by no means says that you can sin at will. You won't be judged by the measurement of Law though.

Similarly, the Jews need to observe Mosaic Law to the best of knowledge except for the part no longer necessary after the coming of Jesus, such as those laws of sacrifices. They still need to observe whatever characterized them as the JEWS.

They however have the advantage of choosing not to be a Jew. That is, if they choose not to observe the Mosaic Law, they are then actually the gentiles governed by conscience and moral code to act. God's Grace will pick up from where they failed the Mosaic Law if they choose to observe so, or where they failed as gentiles do if they choose not to observe.

Christians don't observe OT Laws (Mosaic Law) since the time when there are no longer Jews inside our churches. Conflicts occurred during the time when both Jewish and gentile Christians co-existed as the Jews demanded that the gentile Christians need to follow their laws to act. The apostles such as Paul and Peter had fought back to clarify this many times.

What a mess.

Hawkins
September 8th, 2016, 10:10 AM
What a mess.

No. It's clarity if you are willing to read carefully.

This is more about the scope of coverage of the old and new covenants. That is, how various covenants work for what scope (Jews or gentiles) of humans.

God's Truth
September 8th, 2016, 10:45 AM
No. It's clarity if you are willing to read carefully.

This is more about the scope of coverage of the old and new covenants. That is, how various covenants work for what scope (Jews or gentiles) of humans.

There is no more Jew and Gentile, only saved believers in Christ and the condemned.

You said, "Similarly, the Jews need to observe Mosaic Law to the best of knowledge except for the part no longer necessary after the coming of Jesus, such as those laws of sacrifices. They still need to observe whatever characterized them as the JEWS."

There is no more old law. There is no way anyone can obey the old law anymore. There is no more earthly temple, no more earthly priest, no animal sacrifices that God would accept. Circumcision is mutilation of the flesh. The observance of special days is worthless.

clefty
September 8th, 2016, 11:28 AM
Sure it did, but just because the cage door is open doesn't mean the former captives feel comfortable just leaving.

Revealed religion occurs, such as the religion of Jesus, but the new converts to such invariably contaminate the new by their old forms and theories; thus Christianity became a religion about Jesus.

That it is about Him is neither His or the OT's fault.

If there are those who idolize Him they will counterfeit His message.

He came to reveal the Father and His Father's will which well is obedience....and to the Law in the OT. He came because His Fathers Law condemns us and now finally we have His mercy to pass over us...

Not everybody chaffs at the yoke. Most of us "love Thy Law" and realize we can't keep it but it does keep us. Sure, we are domesticated but cared for.

My life is much better because I remember His calendar and don't kill, steal, sleep around, lie etc...

And certainly because of my Sabbath rest which not even the boss man can take.

No cage here...

Caino
September 8th, 2016, 12:18 PM
That it is about Him is neither His or the OT's fault.

If there are those who idolize Him they will counterfeit His message.

He came to reveal the Father and His Father's will which well is obedience....and to the Law in the OT. He came because His Fathers Law condemns us and now finally we have His mercy to pass over us...

Not everybody chaffs at the yoke. Most of us "love Thy Law" and realize we can't keep it but it does keep us. Sure, we are domesticated but cared for.

My life is much better because I remember His calendar and don't kill, steal, sleep around, lie etc...

And certainly because of my Sabbath rest which not even the boss man can take.

No cage here...

Well put! I like your way of thinking. We aren't far apart, we just differ on the OT being written by God.


The law served a purpose but now God writes his laws upon our hearts. He is a Living God.

clefty
September 9th, 2016, 05:58 AM
Well put! I like your way of thinking. We aren't far apart, we just differ on the OT being written by God.

Sadly that puts us far apart.

My God doesn't lie when He said ithe Law is His He made it.

...and my God created the means to salvation as even His Son depended on His Father's Law to affirm and vindicate Him and His mission.

Your God apparently needs man to help to create a system by which he is restored to Him.





The law served a purpose but now God writes his laws upon our hearts. He is a Living God.

The Law is the same and was always in the heart to all who believe.

Caino
September 9th, 2016, 06:53 AM
Sadly that puts us far apart.

My God doesn't lie when He said ithe Law is His He made it.

...and my God created the means to salvation as even His Son depended on His Father's Law to affirm and vindicate Him and His mission.

Your God apparently needs man to help to create a system by which he is restored to Him.






The Law is the same and was always in the heart to all who believe.

Ok, that's fine.

In my understanding of God he is changeless, he is consistent and he is a unified personality. He is loving and forgiving, he has always been forgiving. His way is to forgive, mans way is to create a theoretical way because temporal man finds it difficult to simply forgive without anything in return. It was man who created sacrifices for the "feeling" of forgiveness. Hence, after pigheaded religion killed the Son, the best man could come up with is that we sacrificed Gods Son back to him, therefore we are theoretically forgiven.

The salvation of the original gospel was real, personal transformation of the heart rather than a theoretical substitute of someone else.

Hawkins
September 9th, 2016, 07:02 AM
There is no more Jew and Gentile, only saved believers in Christ and the condemned.

You said, "Similarly, the Jews need to observe Mosaic Law to the best of knowledge except for the part no longer necessary after the coming of Jesus, such as those laws of sacrifices. They still need to observe whatever characterized them as the JEWS."

There is no more old law. There is no way anyone can obey the old law anymore. There is no more earthly temple, no more earthly priest, no animal sacrifices that God would accept. Circumcision is mutilation of the flesh. The observance of special days is worthless.

So you don't even listen to what Jesus said,

Matthew 19:17-21 (NIV)
“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
“Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony,
honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”
“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Jesus was talking to a Jew. You on the other hand as a gentile, won't be able to ENTER LIFE by observing commandments Jesus mentioned!

As a gentile, tell us do you still follow your self-conscience or moral code given to act? That's the set of Law given to gentiles.

clefty
September 9th, 2016, 09:16 AM
Ok, that's fine.

In my understanding of God he is changeless, he is consistent and he is a unified personality. He is loving and forgiving, he has always been forgiving. His way is to forgive, mans way is to create a theoretical way because temporal man finds it difficult to simply forgive without anything in return. It was man who created sacrifices for the "feeling" of forgiveness. Hence, after pigheaded religion killed the Son, the best man could come up with is that we sacrificed Gods Son back to him, therefore we are theoretically forgiven.

The salvation of the original gospel was real, personal transformation of the heart rather than a theoretical substitute of someone else.

Because man needed something doesn't mean he came up with it.

Israel clammered and complained and demanded a king like the other nations and well Yah allowed it but appointed one.

See? Israel didn't give themselves their own King...

Noah was instructed by Yah to build the ark.

Why else would he?

God's Truth
September 9th, 2016, 09:21 AM
So you don't even listen to what Jesus said,

Matthew 19:17-21 (NIV)
“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
“Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “ ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony,
honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”
“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

Jesus was talking to a Jew. You on the other hand as a gentile, won't be able to ENTER LIFE by observing commandments Jesus mentioned!

As a gentile, tell us do you still follow your self-conscience or moral code given to act? That's the set of Law given to gentiles.

Jesus came to earth and he came for the Jews who already belonged to God first by obedience and faith.

The rest of the Jews were cut off.

Jesus came first for the Jews with faith and when Jesus was crucified---then ALL can come to God through Jesus.

First to the Jew then to the Gentile. Same salvation but Jews who already belonged to God first.

Why shouldn't Jesus come to his first?

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Acts 3:26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."

Romans 2:9
There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."


Study those scriptures. With the measure you use it will be measured to you and more.

Caino
September 9th, 2016, 10:35 AM
Because man needed something doesn't mean he came up with it.

Israel clammered and complained and demanded a king like the other nations and well Yah allowed it but appointed one.

See? Israel didn't give themselves their own King...

Noah was instructed by Yah to build the ark.

Why else would he?

When the Hebrews were redacting their history in response to the ego deflation after loosing their nation, they were finding it difficult to trace their blood lines all the way back to a much older than thought, Adam and Eve. So they decided to drown the whole world in a well known LOCAL flood legend of Noah in order to fill the gap. They expanded the local flood into a world wide flood. People fell for it.

patrick jane
September 9th, 2016, 10:41 AM
When the Hebrews were redacting their history in response to the ego deflation after loosing their nation, they were finding it difficult to trace their blood lines all the way back to a much older than thought, Adam and Eve. So they decided to drown the whole world in a well known LOCAL flood legend of Noah in order to fill the gap. They expanded the local flood into a world wide flood. People fell for it.
You blasphemy knows no bounds !!

patrick jane
September 9th, 2016, 10:46 AM
Ok, that's fine.

In my understanding of God he is changeless, he is consistent and he is a unified personality. He is loving and forgiving, he has always been forgiving. His way is to forgive, mans way is to create a theoretical way because temporal man finds it difficult to simply forgive without anything in return. It was man who created sacrifices for the "feeling" of forgiveness. Hence, after pigheaded religion killed the Son, the best man could come up with is that we sacrificed Gods Son back to him, therefore we are theoretically forgiven.

The salvation of the original gospel was real, personal transformation of the heart rather than a theoretical substitute of someone else.
Everything is a THEORY to you alien lovers -

steko
September 9th, 2016, 10:48 AM
When the Hebrews were redacting their history in response to the ego deflation after loosing their nation, they were finding it difficult to trace their blood lines all the way back to a much older than thought, Adam and Eve. So they decided to drown the whole world in a well known LOCAL flood legend of Noah in order to fill the gap. They expanded the local flood into a world wide flood. People fell for it.

:rotfl: ...and you actually believe this!

Caino
September 9th, 2016, 10:56 AM
:rotfl: ...and you actually believe this!

Sure, makes more sense than God being disappointed in the wickedness of the world that he created, that he allowed a Satan creature to mislead, elects, cough, cough, the only righteous man in the world, who happens to be a descendant of the arrogant people who wrote that story, cough cough,(the same ones that killed Christ) only to have that righteous man passed out drunk and naked in his tent.......a little while later his grandchildren started popping out kids of a different race, to go repopulate the same lands where the same races have lived for tens of thousands of years. And it didn't even work, man is still just as wicked as ever. The men who wrote that story didn't think very far ahead. :doh:

The same people who don't believe in evolution believe in a rapid evolution and repopulation of a 4.5 billion year old earth.

So something tells me you are laughing at your own gullibility, having made the Bible into an idol.

clefty
September 9th, 2016, 11:14 AM
Jesus came to earth and he came for the Jews who already belonged to God first by obedience and faith.

The rest of the Jews were cut off.

Jesus came first for the Jews with faith and when Jesus was crucified---then ALL can come to God through Jesus.

First to the Jew then to the Gentile. Same salvation but Jews who already belonged to God first.

Why shouldn't Jesus come to his first?

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Acts 3:26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."

Romans 2:9
There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."


Study those scriptures. With the measure you use it will be measured to you and more.

The Promise was always open to Gentiles as was its Law...

"One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether a native-born Israelite or a foreigner residing among you."

Numbers 15:29

Caino
September 9th, 2016, 12:53 PM
Because of their dwindling numbers the Jews had to begin to take on Gentile converts, but they viewed them with contempt.

clefty
September 9th, 2016, 02:13 PM
Because of their dwindling numbers the Jews had to begin to take on Gentile converts, but they viewed them with contempt.

LoL..right it has nothing to do with "My house will be a house of prayer for all nations"

Or even "for God so loved the world'

God's Truth
September 9th, 2016, 06:14 PM
Because of their dwindling numbers the Jews had to begin to take on Gentile converts, but they viewed them with contempt.

I didn't mean to give you a thanks for that post.

What you say here sounds like you are using today's business logic to fit back then.

God's Truth
September 9th, 2016, 06:15 PM
The Promise was always open to Gentiles as was its Law...

"One and the same law applies to everyone who sins unintentionally, whether a native-born Israelite or a foreigner residing among you."

Numbers 15:29

Please deal with everything that I said.

clefty
September 9th, 2016, 09:05 PM
Please deal with everything that I said.

I did...with that text.

Those that left Egypt were by faith. Most because they had faith of being blood descendents of Jacob but some came along because they had faith in their God. They were welcomed as long as they were obedient...

His "I do!" with blood Israel however was forever. Is why He had to die to release that harlot from their oath.

He now seeks another bride who is more faithful to the same terms (unchanged) for the everlasting promise.

God's Truth
September 9th, 2016, 09:17 PM
I did...with that text.

Those that left Egypt were by faith. Most because they had faith of being blood descendents of Jacob but some came along because they had faith in their God. They were welcomed as long as they were obedient...

His "I do!" with blood Israel however was forever. Is why He had to die to release that harlot from their oath.

He now seeks another bride who is more faithful to the same terms (unchanged) for the everlasting promise.

Just believe the scriptures...no longer by human descent.

clefty
September 9th, 2016, 09:52 PM
Just believe the scriptures...no longer by human descent.

Yup...

But now back to who says it says what and why...lol


Still amazed how many people think Peter Paul and the early church lived one way and taught another...

As if the Son would counter His Father...as if a house can be divided...

God's Truth
September 10th, 2016, 04:30 AM
Yup...

But now back to who says it says what and why...lol

The scriptures are by God.

God says no more of human descent.

That means no more by whom one is blood related to Abraham.

John 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

See, one could be saved by being blood related to Abraham...and follow the old law's purification works...and or a husband can marry a non Jew and desire for her to become a saved person and obey the law as given to the people.

What does the Word of God say? The Word of God says NOT of blood relations or a husband's decision.

So then, how are we saved, how is anyone saved?

By being born of God.

How is one born of God?

One is born of God by getting Jesus' teachings and doing what he says to do.

Jesus gives his Spirit to those who believe and obey him.

When one receives the Spirit of God, one is born of God.




Still amazed how many people think Peter Paul and the early church lived one way and taught another...

As if the Son would counter His Father...as if a house can be divided...

Where are you getting all that?

clefty
September 10th, 2016, 05:52 AM
The scriptures are by God.

God says no more of human descent.

That means no more by whom one is blood related to Abraham.

John 1:13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

See, one could be saved by being blood related to Abraham...and follow the old law's purification works...and or a husband can marry a non Jew and desire for her to become a saved person and obey the law as given to the people.

What does the Word of God say? The Word of God says NOT of blood relations or a husband's decision.

So then, how are we saved, how is anyone saved?

By being born of God.

How is one born of God?

One is born of God by getting Jesus' teachings and doing what he says to do.

Jesus gives his Spirit to those who believe and obey him.

When one receives the Spirit of God, one is born of God.



Where are you getting all that?

From the study of acts that this thread opens with.

It shows how Christians who believe and teach that the law was changed are in error. Ironically misusing Paul to validate things like Sunday Ham...

They are slandering the apostles just as the early persecutors did.

As for being gentile or not the early instruction to Titus was "avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, arguments, and quarrels about the Law,"

A foolish quarrel about the Law would be to not keep it.

Caino
September 10th, 2016, 07:00 AM
Math stays the same, the Jews were dwindling so they needed more people to help defend themselves. They were really forced as a practical matter to graft "gentile dogs" onto their sect. But in the temple the lowly Gentiles still had their own court.

God's Truth
September 10th, 2016, 11:03 AM
From the study of acts that this thread opens with.

It shows how Christians who believe and teach that the law was changed are in error. Ironically misusing Paul to validate things like Sunday Ham...

They are slandering the apostles just as the early persecutors did.

As for being gentile or not the early instruction to Titus was "avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, arguments, and quarrels about the Law,"

A foolish quarrel about the Law would be to not keep it.

Since Jesus came, his blood is the only blood that matters.

God says so.

God's Truth
September 10th, 2016, 11:28 AM
Math stays the same, the Jews were dwindling so they needed more people to help defend themselves. They were really forced as a practical matter to graft "gentile dogs" onto their sect. But in the temple the lowly Gentiles still had their own court.

The only time Gentiles were called dogs is because they did not know their Father God. Like dogs, do not know their father...

Gentiles were like dogs not knowing God the Father, they did not obey God. God says that He is the Father to those who obey Him...those are the people He knows and know Him.

clefty
September 11th, 2016, 06:01 AM
Math stays the same, the Jews were dwindling so they needed more people to help defend themselves. They were really forced as a practical matter to graft "gentile dogs" onto their sect. But in the temple the lowly Gentiles still had their own court.

Paul referred to this court in his letter to the Ephesians. It had a fence all around it. Yahushua destroyed this wall of separation built to exclude Gentiles a closer worship. But now in Him we are all one family identified by the Laws we keep together...again, His house rules we keep to live with Him as He does.

The curtain was also destroyed, when He died, allowing all not just a high priest once a year, in to the seat of mercy. (Which rested on the still binding immutable Law"

So in summary, we have the wall of seperation destroyed, and the inner veil and the handwritten debts held against us...but His Laws remains...

clefty
September 11th, 2016, 11:55 AM
Since Jesus came, his blood is the only blood that matters.

God says so.

Make no mistake...it was His blood that only mattered long before He came and was killed. That other blood only mattered because it foreshadowing Him and was symbolic of faith and obedience.

Caino is arguing that all these blood letting sacrifices were man made rituals and ceremonies.

But is was never the blood itself or the burning flesh that took away sin or cleansed or purified LITERALLY but that we obeyed His instructions literally...and He was pleased by the faith that was proven by it. "Rather mercy than sacrifice"

Even the Israelites idolized these forms and functions and made too much of them...by taking the ark of the covenant into battle with them thinking it would be a magic ray gun they could use...the bronze serpent worshipped long after its function over being another example.

The shedding of blood (nevermind it was for unintentional sins)was ALWAYS only symbolic until the One Who "takes away the sin of the world"actually did so. And John wasn't wrong, because He shed His own blood and was innocent, He will at the end actually destroy sin and any stained with it...taking it away...

God's Truth
September 11th, 2016, 03:05 PM
Make no mistake... That is my intention.



it was His blood that only mattered long before He came and was killed.

His blood was NOT shed until it was shed on the cross, when it was shed.





That other blood only mattered because it foreshadowing Him and was symbolic of faith and obedience.

That other blood was from earthy man, Abraham from whom Jesus was blood related. The blood of animals was just a shadow, a teaching tool.



Caino is arguing that all these blood letting sacrifices were man made rituals and ceremonies.
God the Father commanded them.


But is was never the blood itself or the burning flesh that took away sin or cleansed or purified LITERALLY but that we obeyed His instructions literally...

That is right.




and He was pleased by the faith that was proven by it. "Rather mercy than sacrifice"

Well, not quite, for He was displeased by those who came and gave an animal to sacrifice, because of those who were not sorry for their sins. They did a righteous act of giving a blood sacrifice for sin, but they were not sorry.




Even the Israelites idolized these forms and functions and made too much of them...

Idolized them? If you are doing right then it is not wrong.

Ben Masada
September 11th, 2016, 03:17 PM
Math stays the same, the Jews were dwindling so they needed more people to help defend themselves. They were really forced as a practical matter to graft "gentile dogs" onto their sect. But in the temple the lowly Gentiles still had their own court.

True, but there is no forced conversions among the Jews.

Ben Masada
September 11th, 2016, 03:21 PM
Because of their dwindling numbers the Jews had to begin to take on Gentile converts, but they viewed them with contempt.

True that we always take on Gentile converts who chose to join God's Covenant with His People; but this of viewing them with contempt, you must read Isaiah 56:1-8 to see how mistaken you are. The opposite is rather true that they get a name better than sons and daughters.

Ben Masada
September 11th, 2016, 03:40 PM
[quote]gentiles - they need to follow the "LAW BY HEART" to act. Thus they have to act with conscience and moral code, even in the case of under the New Covenant. They are however expected to fail at some point for God's Grace to apply to save them. As the New Covenant by no means says that you can sin at will. You won't be judged by the measurement of Law though.

Every one was, is and will be judged by the measurements of the Law. That's the method used by all judges as they have copied from the Mosaic Law.


Similarly, the Jews need to observe Mosaic Law to the best of knowledge except for the part no longer necessary after the coming of Jesus, such as those laws of sacrifices. They still need to observe whatever characterized them as the JEWS.

I agree with you though many Jews won't. I am against a returning of animal sacrifices. They caused more damages to the Jews than if they never existed. BTW, HaShem never commanded that sacrifices be part of the religion of Israel if you read Jeremiah 7:22.


They however have the advantage of choosing not to be a Jew. That is, if they choose not to observe the Mosaic Law, they are then actually the gentiles governed by conscience and moral code to act. God's Grace will pick up from where they failed the Mosaic Law if they choose to observe so, or where they failed as gentiles do if they choose not to observe.

Every one has the right to choose no longer to be a Jew. After all, we all have been granted with the attribute of Freewill. Hence, we do not adopt forced conversions.


Christians don't observe OT Laws (Mosaic Law) since the time when there are no longer Jews inside our churches. Conflicts occurred during the time when both Jewish and gentile Christians co-existed as the Jews demanded that the gentile Christians need to follow their laws to act. The apostles such as Paul and Peter had fought back to clarify this many times.

Paul was never an apostle. The Apostles had to be always 12. Never 11 or 13. When Judas got lost, it was Mathias who was chosen to join the apostolic group, not Paul. (Acts 1:26)

God's Truth
September 11th, 2016, 04:33 PM
True, but there is no forced conversions among the Jews.

Look at yourself. You have no God, no purpose, no hope.

clefty
September 11th, 2016, 06:44 PM
That is my intention. good good...




His blood was NOT shed until it was shed on the cross, when it was shed. yes but it was His shed blood which was the plan when it was spoken that it was from her Seed.



That other blood was from earthy man, Abraham from whom Jesus was blood related. The blood of animals was just a shadow, a teaching tool. yes ok


God the Father commanded them.

Yes but there remain those who think it was all cleverly rewritten and revised to write Him and themselves into it...



Well, not quite, for He was displeased by those who came and gave an animal to sacrifice, because of those who were not sorry for their sins. They did a righteous act of giving a blood sacrifice for sin, but they were not sorry.

Yes another way the Law failed to perfect. As you note, the actions were done but not sincere.

His sacrifice was to prove His goodness and worthiness to be loved and worshipped. The accuser who from the beginning accused Him to be a merciless God, and not a good God, was at the cross proven wrong.

That we are saved is actually a by product of oHis vindicating and validating Himself His goodness. Knowing this one desires to worship in gratitude knowing they were saved from the accuser's lies and death.

Now we don't HAVE to obey we wish to obey and repent. He is proven Himself a good God.




Idolized them? If you are doing right then it is not wrong.

They loved their temple more than the One who gave it...

So it's the "doing it right" that is the tricky part...and why I am wishing to better understand...

clefty
September 11th, 2016, 07:19 PM
[QUOTE=Hawkins;4809436]

Every one was, is and will be judged by the measurements of the Law. That's the method used by all judges as they have copied from the Mosaic Law.



I agree with you though many Jews won't. I am against a returning of animal sacrifices. They caused more damages to the Jews than if they never existed. BTW, HaShem never commanded that sacrifices be part of the religion of Israel if you read Jeremiah 7:22.l



Every one has the right to choose no longer to be a Jew. After all, we all have been granted with the attribute of Freewill. Hence, we do not adopt forced conversions.



Paul was never an apostle. The Apostles had to be always 12. Never 11 or 13. When Judas got lost, it was Mathias who was chosen to join the apostolic group, not Paul. (Acts 1:26)

The issue became does one do the Law to be saved or "chosen". These Laws were used to identify themselves and benefit from the perks and privileges they had on earth from being a member of the tribe. I.e. No usury debt forgiveness etc

The early church struggled with those who intended gentile believers become members of the tribe, and not just saved.

Circumcision was never required to be saved. Faith led one to observance, not of Moses'law but obedience to the One who gave it. It is not an unbearable burden when one considers what is gained. It becomes a burden when the gain is not enough. Becoming a tribe member is vastly inferior to becoming a citizen of His kingdom.

Why do any of this to become merely one of the branches that were broken off?

God's Truth
September 11th, 2016, 08:46 PM
good good...



yes but it was His shed blood which was the plan when it was spoken that it was from her Seed.


yes ok



Yes but there remain those who think it was all cleverly rewritten and revised to write Him and themselves into it...




Yes another way the Law failed to perfect. As you note, the actions were done but not sincere.

His sacrifice was to prove His goodness and worthiness to be loved and worshipped. The accuser who from the beginning accused Him to be a merciless God, and not a good God, was at the cross proven wrong.

That we are saved is actually a by product of oHis vindicating and validating Himself His goodness. Knowing this one desires to worship in gratitude knowing they were saved from the accuser's lies and death.

Now we don't HAVE to obey we wish to obey and repent. He is proven Himself a good God.





They loved their temple more than the One who gave it...

So it's the "doing it right" that is the tricky part...and why I am wishing to better understand...

I can't see how someone could put down God the Father in the Old Testament.

Caino
September 12th, 2016, 06:23 AM
True, but there is no forced conversions among the Jews.

I didn't say forced, the Jews had to begin to lighten up a little in their general attitude towards non-Jews, Gentiles. They were forced to do this as a practical matter because their numbers were dwindling, hence they couldn't mount an adequate defense.

In the religion of Jesus all men and women are the sons and daughters of God. The segregated, "chosen people" attitude that evolved between Abraham to Judaism became a stumbling block.

Caino
September 12th, 2016, 06:34 AM
True that we always take on Gentile converts who chose to join God's Covenant with His People; but this of viewing them with contempt, you must read Isaiah 56:1-8 to see how mistaken you are. The opposite is rather true that they get a name better than sons and daughters.

Yea, sure, and all Christians today love all Muslims because Jesus said "love one another the way I have loved you".

My coverage about this issue is not as black and white as it may appear. The Jews did attempt to formulate protocol for dealing with non-Jews of Pagan religions but to say their attitude was a clean as Isaiah's idealism is simply not the case.


Gentile, Jewish Encyclopedia

http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6585-gentile

Grosnick Marowbe
September 12th, 2016, 07:12 AM
Yea, sure, and all Christians today love all Muslims because Jesus said "love one another the way I have loved you".

My coverage about this issue is not as black and white as it may appear. The Jews did attempt to formulate protocol for dealing with non-Jews of Pagan religions but to say their attitude was a clean as Isaiah's idealism is simply not the case.


Gentile, Jewish Encyclopedia

http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/6585-gentile

Allow me to expose you as a "Urantia Cultist" and non-Christian or Jewish. So, posters will know who they're dealing with.

Grosnick Marowbe
September 12th, 2016, 07:13 AM
Caino belongs to a "UFO Cult."

Grosnick Marowbe
September 12th, 2016, 07:14 AM
Math stays the same, the Jews were dwindling so they needed more people to help defend themselves. They were really forced as a practical matter to graft "gentile dogs" onto their sect. But in the temple the lowly Gentiles still had their own court.

No doubt you got that information from your Cosmic friends from another planet.

clefty
September 12th, 2016, 09:18 AM
I didn't say forced, the Jews had to begin to lighten up a little in their general attitude towards non-Jews, Gentiles. They were forced to do this as a practical matter because their numbers were dwindling, hence they couldn't mount an adequate defense.

I guess you don't care to read the opening peice. It proves that the tribe accussed Peter and Paul for doing exactly what you are claiming. They were slanderous false witnesses who claimed the apostles were teaching the law was made easier. The apostles proved otherwise teaching nothing changed and lived accordingly. Peter kept kosher and Paul the sabbaths.




In the religion of Jesus all men and women are the sons and daughters of God. The segregated, "chosen people" attitude that evolved between Abraham to Judaism became a stumbling block.

That is true as the chosen loved their temple not the its intent.

They were made branches broken off.

Gentiles replaced them and sadly made subsequent changes for better branding among European pagans.

At best it was a tag team to keep chosen elite and Gentiles second class citizens...but the majority and it "rules" as a counterfeit.

But yes a tag team collaboration.

Caino
September 12th, 2016, 10:31 AM
I guess you don't care to read the opening peice. It proves that the tribe accussed Peter and Paul for doing exactly what you are claiming. They were slanderous false witnesses who claimed the apostles were teaching the law was made easier. The apostles proved otherwise teaching nothing changed and lived accordingly. Peter kept kosher and Paul the sabbaths.





That is true as the chosen loved their temple not the its intent.

They were made branches broken off.

Gentiles replaced them and sadly made subsequent changes for better branding among European pagans.

At best it was a tag team to keep chosen elite and Gentiles second class citizens...but the majority and it "rules" as a counterfeit.

But yes a tag team collaboration.

I did read the OP and again I will point out that Jesus' original gospel wasn't an extension of Judaism, he left the Laws of Moses and the "chosen people" theology of Judaism to itself and the nation of Israel to it's inglorious end.

But this has nothing to do with the original motive of Judaism in Babylon to begin to convert Gentiles for the sheer numbers.

clefty
September 12th, 2016, 11:21 AM
I did read the OP and again I will point out that Jesus' original gospel wasn't an extension of Judaism, he left the Laws of Moses and the "chosen people" theology of Judaism to itself and the nation of Israel to it's inglorious end.

But this has nothing to do with the original motive of Judaism in Babylon to begin to convert Gentiles for the sheer numbers.

Yes good He didn't change anything nor did the early apostles Paul included. The changes came after but not to make more "chosens" but to be less a superstitious OT cult.

Now it's back in Babylon's captivity?

When they returned to build the walls they wouldn't even let the locals help but you seem to think they wished to assimilate them?

We are not talking about the Hebrews or the nation of Israel but an elite tribe that even taxed its own brethren to worship at "their" temple.

This caused a civil war and destroyed temporal Israel forever.

Ask Rome how much these "chosen" wished to include outsiders....they would rather hide in caves...still do lol

Hawkins
September 12th, 2016, 11:22 AM
Jesus came to earth and he came for the Jews who already belonged to God first by obedience and faith.

The rest of the Jews were cut off.

Jesus came first for the Jews with faith and when Jesus was crucified---then ALL can come to God through Jesus.

First to the Jew then to the Gentile. Same salvation but Jews who already belonged to God first.

Why shouldn't Jesus come to his first?

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

Acts 3:26 When God raised up his servant, he sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways."

Romans 2:9
There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile;

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."


Study those scriptures. With the measure you use it will be measured to you and more.

You only need to answer the last question. Do you follow conscience or moral code to act or not?

Law is not abolished if you are under that covenant the law is 'attached' to. That's why even right now you need to follow your conscience to act instead of sinning at will. Abiding by the law however won't save you, it's not the problem of the law but it's your problem as you cannot abide by it to be saved. That's why we have to rely on the faith to be saved as specified by the New Covenant.

"Saved by faith" by no means says that we can sin at will. It simultaneously says that we still need to abide by the Law effective in an older covenant, we don't rely on that covenant to be saved though.

Law is thus in effect all the times for you to obey, or otherwise you can sin at will. Obeying law however won't save you because you are incapable of obeying the law in its full. To put it another way, the older covenant for you is still effective such that you are subject to this older covenant since you are born. You still need to do everything it specifies, including the Law 'attached'. However, God knows that you won't be saved by this older covenant thus you have the option to choose a newer one. Or you can refuse to choose the newer one such that you will be judged by the older one which is in effect all the times.

Even after you choose the newer covenant, you still need to follow the law specified in the old one to act. That's why you still need to follow your self conscience to act. If law is removed completely, it only means that no law is in effect to limit your behavior thus you can sin at will (as law is already not there).

You can refer Law as being "removed" only in the perspective that Law is no longer used to judged us Christians in the final judgment.

You need to re-study the whole Bible for you misunderstanding to be corrected.

Hawkins
September 12th, 2016, 11:43 AM
[QUOTE=Hawkins;4809436]

Every one was, is and will be judged by the measurements of the Law. That's the method used by all judges as they have copied from the Mosaic Law.

I agree with you though many Jews won't. I am against a returning of animal sacrifices. They caused more damages to the Jews than if they never existed. BTW, HaShem never commanded that sacrifices be part of the religion of Israel if you read Jeremiah 7:22.

Every one has the right to choose no longer to be a Jew. After all, we all have been granted with the attribute of Freewill. Hence, we do not adopt forced conversions.

Paul was never an apostle. The Apostles had to be always 12. Never 11 or 13. When Judas got lost, it was Mathias who was chosen to join the apostolic group, not Paul. (Acts 1:26)

It's not about freewill. It's about how God classifies the Jews. If you refuse to abide by the Mosaic Law, you are already not a Jew in God's eyes.

You are not a Jews in terms of the covenant given to the Jews, even though you are a Jew in terms of bloodline. The bloodline is only human perspective in defining who a Jew is.

Revelation 2:9 (NIV)
I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

The above verse says that, those Jews by bloodline are not Jews in God's eyes.

Caino
September 12th, 2016, 03:23 PM
Yes good He didn't change anything nor did the early apostles Paul included. The changes came after but not to make more "chosens" but to be less a superstitious OT cult.

Now it's back in Babylon's captivity?

When they returned to build the walls they wouldn't even let the locals help but you seem to think they wished to assimilate them?

We are not talking about the Hebrews or the nation of Israel but an elite tribe that even taxed its own brethren to worship at "their" temple.

This caused a civil war and destroyed temporal Israel forever.

Ask Rome how much these "chosen" wished to include outsiders....they would rather hide in caves...still do lol

Yes, the Jews began offering conversion to Gentiles as early as the Babylonion period. There was a special court for the Gentile converts in the Temple.

Ben Masada
September 12th, 2016, 03:38 PM
[QUOTE=Ben Masada;4812076]

It's not about freewill. It's about how God classifies the Jews. If you refuse to abide by the Mosaic Law, you are already not a Jew in God's eyes.

You are not a Jews in terms of the covenant given to the Jews, even though you are a Jew in terms of bloodline. The bloodline is only human perspective in defining who a Jew is.

Revelation 2:9 (NIV) I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know about the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

The above verse says that, those Jews by bloodline are not Jews in God's eyes.

If you ask me, I am even ready to discard the concept of a Jew according to his or her bloodline. If the bloodline concept made a Jew out of a person, he or she would not lose it by embracing a different faith from the Jewish one. A "bloodline" Jew who become a Christian or Muslim or of any other religion, he or she would not cease being a Jew but they do. If you read Isaiah 56:1-8 those from among the Gentiles who decide to join God's Covenant with His People, get a name better than that of sons and daughters.

Ben Masada
September 12th, 2016, 03:57 PM
Yea, sure, and all Christians today love all Muslims because Jesus said "love one another the way I have loved you".

My coverage about this issue is not as black and white as it may appear. The Jews did attempt to formulate protocol for dealing with non-Jews of Pagan religions but to say their attitude was a clean as Isaiah's idealism is simply not the case.



"As I loved you!" If that had been true, they would not have included into the gospel of Matthew the text in 10:5,6 when Jesus forbade his disciples not to take the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles, especially Samaritans.

clefty
September 12th, 2016, 05:57 PM
Yes, the Jews began offering conversion to Gentiles as early as the Babylonion period. There was a special court for the Gentile converts in the Temple.

They weren't offering...it wasn't theirs to give...it was already available for ANY who joined the exodus out of Egypt...the sabbath commandment proves this...and if they wished to join Passover just allow yourself to be cut...

What a trade off...some pain and scarring for a chance to belong and identify as His people...inheriting a Promise...people do tattoos and peircing and what not for dumber reasons...

You seem to think they offered conversions later because their numbers were falling off...

That temple was a house of prayer for all people not theirs and that tribe's arrogant exclusiveness is exactly what Yahshua destroyed...temple included...

As if the sabbath is theirs...or the feasts...

I hear it all the time from them and from Christians...Sabbath? Oh that's jooish...

Then so is marriage...

Caino
September 12th, 2016, 06:03 PM
They weren't offering...it wasn't theirs to give...it was already available for ANY who joined the exodus out of Egypt...the sabbath commandment proves this...and if they wished to join Passover just allow yourself to be cut...

What a trade off...some pain and scarring for a chance to belong and identify as His people...inheriting a Promise...people do tattoos and peircing and what not for dumber reasons...

You seem to think they offered conversions later because their numbers were falling off...

That temple was a house of prayer for all people not theirs and that tribe's arrogant exclusiveness is exactly what Yahshua destroyed...temple included...

As if the sabbath is theirs...or the feasts...

I hear it all the time from them and from Christians...oh that's jooish...

You seem to overlook the importance of genealogy in Judaism.

Caino
September 12th, 2016, 06:07 PM
"As I loved you!" If that had been true, they would not have included into the gospel of Matthew the text in 10:5,6 when Jesus forbade his disciples not to take the gospel of salvation to the Gentiles, especially Samaritans.

You missed the point entirely.....or avoided it? Again, just because Isaiah spoke of an idealism doesn't mean Jews followed him, in fact prophets were often mistreated by their contemporaries.

God's Truth
September 12th, 2016, 09:40 PM
You only need to answer the last question.

What? Do you really think you can just pass up everything that I said and all the scriptures I posted just to tell me I only need to answer the last question?




Do you follow conscience or moral code to act or not?

Law is not abolished if you are under that covenant the law is 'attached' to.

There is no way anyone can be under the old law.





That's why even right now you need to follow your conscience to act instead of sinning at will. Abiding by the law however won't save you, it's not the problem of the law but it's your problem as you cannot abide by it to be saved. That's why we have to rely on the faith to be saved as specified by the New Covenant.

There is a new law. We have to obey the new law.



"Saved by faith" by no means says that we can sin at will. It simultaneously says that we still need to abide by the Law effective in an older covenant, we don't rely on that covenant to be saved though.

I am not sure what you are saying. We have to obey. Jesus' words are life.



Law is thus in effect all the times for you to obey, or otherwise you can sin at will. Obeying law however won't save you because you are incapable of obeying the law in its full. To put it another way, the older covenant for you is still effective such that you are subject to this older covenant since you are born. You still need to do everything it specifies, including the Law 'attached'. However, God knows that you won't be saved by this older covenant thus you have the option to choose a newer one. Or you can refuse to choose the newer one such that you will be judged by the older one which is in effect all the times.

No. There is only a new law.



Even after you choose the newer covenant, you still need to follow the law specified in the old one to act. That's why you still need to follow your self conscience to act. If law is removed completely, it only means that no law is in effect to limit your behavior thus you can sin at will (as law is already not there).

You can refer Law as being "removed" only in the perspective that Law is no longer used to judged us Christians in the final judgment.

You need to re-study the whole Bible for you misunderstanding to be corrected.

I do not need to do any such thing, but I would love to help you.

clefty
September 12th, 2016, 10:30 PM
You seem to overlook the importance of genealogy in Judaism.

How can I?

That is exactly idolatry. Ascribing to bloodlines power that isn't there is no different than praying to a rock or the god it represents...

Or worshipping a bronze serpent beyond its purpose and intent...idolatry is counterfeiting and that they idolized their own blood lines counterfeits the intent of the promise.

How many Christians throughout history elevate them or hold them is such esteem despite their rejection and deceptions...like they have magic mystical powers...its in da blood dontcha know...

What is their bloodline? Ethiopian? Ashkenazi Sephardim khazar? Sammy Davis?

Their talmudic eugenics would make the nazis jealous but that's really not the gospel is it?

And don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Yahushua was one of them, kept OT law and insisted "God so loved the world that whosoever" not just their blood line... and yet look what they did to Him...all of them who were present at the christening of the new covenant the night it was made were of the tribe not one gentile was present...yet we have it and are grafted in...but yet they were afraid and hid and for good reason...

You can't claim His was a new gospel as it was always available to foreigners and you can't say the tribe made it up...that's exactly what they would want you to believe..."we made it" even now some consider themselves now as a collective messiah...and build babylon's Zion...for their own bloodline...

There has been an attempt by the accuser to counterfeit and deceive the meaning of the inheritance of the promise to Israel ever since it was declared that from her Seed He would be vindicated and His restoration would be made...

clefty
September 12th, 2016, 11:08 PM
What? Do you really think you can just pass up everything that I said and all the scriptures I posted just to tell me I only need to answer the last question?



There is no way anyone can be under the old law.




There is a new law. We have to obey the new law.



I am not sure what you are saying. We have to obey. Jesus' words are life.



No. There is only a new law.



I do not need to do any such thing, but I would love to help you.

What's this about a new law?

Hope it doesn't counter the old law as "a house divided" and all that...

clefty
September 12th, 2016, 11:12 PM
What's this about a new law?

Imagine those under the old law finding out others had certain shortcuts and privileges...

"Oh man...I wanted to eat pork chops all my life..." You think they were mumbling and complainers in the desert wait 'til they find this out...

Paradise ain't looking so good...

God's Truth
September 12th, 2016, 11:19 PM
What's this about a new law?

Hope it doesn't counter the old law as "a house divided" and all that...

Oh good sounds like you agree.

God's Truth
September 12th, 2016, 11:24 PM
Imagine those under the old law finding out others had certain shortcuts and privileges...

"Oh man...I wanted to eat pork chops all my life..." You think they were mumbling and complainers in the desert wait 'til they find this out...

Paradise ain't looking so good...

Haven't you heard about the good news?

clefty
September 12th, 2016, 11:38 PM
Oh good sounds like you agree.

Well...maybe...

Depends what this new law is.

Pretty sure it ain't "Eat Ham on Sundays to celebrate My spookin' My disciples"...

I often hear it's just "love God and your neighbor as yourself"...as if that wasn't in the OT...

In fact, the old was actually amplified not done away with...don't kill went to don't be be hating...or don't commit adultery to don't be whistling at the dames or something like that...

He just wanted to show we can't keep it alone...but He will help wih all that...

So we got a new covenant is true, but I think its terms and conditions of the old remain...namely obedience to Father's immutable Law...

God's Truth
September 12th, 2016, 11:52 PM
Well...maybe...

Depends what this new law is.

Don't you know?



Pretty sure it ain't "Eat Ham on Sundays to celebrate My spookin' My disciples"...

You are trying to be funny...I've done that and failed many a times.

Do you want to explain? Forgive me for not getting it.



I often hear it's just "love God and your neighbor as yourself"...as if that wasn't in the OT...

Right, but what was NOT in the Old Testament was Jesus the Lamb of God ONCE and FOR ALL, and you become a priest and Jesus is the High Priest...no more going to the temple to be near God's Spirit, for we become the temple, as we are reconciled to God.




In fact, the old was actually amplified not done away with...don't kill went to don't be be hating...or don't commit adultery to don't be whistling at the dames or something like that...

Something like that?




He just wanted to show we can't keep it alone...but He will help wih all that...

People obeyed the old law.




So we got a new covenant is true, but I think its terms and conditions of the old remain...namely obedience to Father's immutable Law...

We have a new law, it is the old law with some changes.

Caino
September 13th, 2016, 10:23 AM
How can I?

That is exactly idolatry. Ascribing to bloodlines power that isn't there is no different than praying to a rock or the god it represents...

Or worshipping a bronze serpent beyond its purpose and intent...idolatry is counterfeiting and that they idolized their own blood lines counterfeits the intent of the promise.

How many Christians throughout history elevate them or hold them is such esteem despite their rejection and deceptions...like they have magic mystical powers...its in da blood dontcha know...

What is their bloodline? Ethiopian? Ashkenazi Sephardim khazar? Sammy Davis?

Their talmudic eugenics would make the nazis jealous but that's really not the gospel is it?

And don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Yahushua was one of them, kept OT law and insisted "God so loved the world that whosoever" not just their blood line... and yet look what they did to Him...all of them who were present at the christening of the new covenant the night it was made were of the tribe not one gentile was present...yet we have it and are grafted in...but yet they were afraid and hid and for good reason...

You can't claim His was a new gospel as it was always available to foreigners and you can't say the tribe made it up...that's exactly what they would want you to believe..."we made it" even now some consider themselves now as a collective messiah...and build babylon's Zion...for their own bloodline...

There has been an attempt by the accuser to counterfeit and deceive the meaning of the inheritance of the promise to Israel ever since it was declared that from her Seed He would be vindicated and His restoration would be made...
The scoundrels that you refer to inside the evolution of Judaisn ARE the same people that wrote the history of the Jews. They converted ordinary secular history into a miraculous fiction while retaining some accurate fragments of Israelite history. Bloodlines and authority are everything to the Hebrew holy men. They claim it came directly from God.

clefty
September 13th, 2016, 07:42 PM
Don't you know?

Many variations...was wondering which ones you would cite




You are trying to be funny...I've done that and failed many a times.

Do you want to explain? Forgive me for not getting it.

The biggest "change" they insist is Sunday worship because that is when He rose they claim...I joke a little because I get bored with explaining repeatedly that no one actually saw Him RISE...He appeared to them after...and spooked them...some odd "first of the new sabbaths" Sunday worship celebration that has them hiding and being frightened by their Master's appearing because they expected Him dead...



Right, but what was NOT in the Old Testament was Jesus the Lamb of God ONCE and FOR ALL, and you become a priest and Jesus is the High Priest...no more going to the temple to be near God's Spirit, for we become the temple, as we are reconciled to God. that first Passover had no priests let alone Levitical line or temple ceremonies...and as a memorial to leaving bondage and sin it remains relevant...celebrating the feast days is a reminder of His calendar His time His way. In the OT Yahushua was present and they had faith...but after the cross we merely have added incentive not laws to keep...

Please recall that even the 10 were not commandments per say but 10 words or sayings...descriptives of what life with Him was like...no need to kill no need to steal, fornicate, lie, make images...and since He blessed and rests on the Sabbath so should we...to get used to living like/with Him




Something like that? yes again being playful with the fact that nothing is changed and no Christian denies 9 laws remain and are still binding...it's just that last Sabbath one that is so oft ignored or thought needing an update...like the "no adultery" one did...but the update to the fourth counters its original it does not amplify it...




People obeyed the old law. yes but all failed..some kept trying...some still do

And as the miracle of the Red Sea crossing was proof to the Hebrews He was deserving of love and worship so should the cross and what it did motivate our obedience...alas, like that church in the wilderness so many now seek comfort not vigilance and in turn seek to make changes less strict and demanding...




We have a new law, it is the old law with some changes.

Like Sabbath is now Sunday? Unclean is clean?

clefty
September 13th, 2016, 10:38 PM
The scoundrels that you refer to inside the evolution of Judaisn ARE the same people that wrote the history of the Jews. They converted ordinary secular history into a miraculous fiction while retaining some accurate fragments of Israelite history. Bloodlines and authority are everything to the Hebrew holy men. They claim it came directly from God.

Bloodlines in Christianity too...kings by divine right merely meant the church sanctioned it...

And tradition...oh man how important is that succession and tradition thingy...

And yet I doubt Yah would allow Himself to be supplanted usurped or vicarred out of relevancy...just because man deceives and counterfeits doesn't mean one can't see the original through careful Spirit filled reading and study...

It's a weak god that is written out or merely forgotten...every age He has had His own carefully preserving the Truth...despite man's best intention otherwise and the accusers will continue to fail

God's Truth
September 13th, 2016, 10:51 PM
Many variations...was wondering which ones you would cite

…but I asked you.






The biggest "change" they insist is Sunday worship because that is when He rose they claim...

Observing special days is worthless now. Jesus is our Sabbath Rest and we worship Jesus all day every day.





I joke a little because I get bored with explaining repeatedly that no one actually saw Him RISE...He appeared to them after...and spooked them...some odd "first of the new sabbaths" Sunday worship celebration that has them hiding and being frightened by their Master's appearing because they expected Him dead...

Oh good point; but how does that change anything?

I have repeated myself and explained things so many times and I just don’t get bored with it.





that first Passover had no priests let alone Levitical line or temple ceremonies...

So? There was blood. You are doing a bad job of trying to disqualify God’s Word.





and as a memorial to leaving bondage and sin it remains relevant...celebrating the feast days is a reminder of His calendar His time His way. In the OT Yahushua was present and they had faith...but after the cross we merely have added incentive not laws to keep...

The laws are from God; even the special days to observe were from God.






Please recall that even the 10 were not commandments per say but 10 words or sayings...descriptives of what life with Him was like...no need to kill no need to steal, fornicate, lie, make images...and since He blessed and rests on the Sabbath so should we...to get used to living like/with Him

Jesus is the Sabbath. The 10 commandments were not the only commandments.






yes again being playful with the fact that nothing is changed and no Christian denies 9 laws remain and are still binding...it's just that last Sabbath one that is so oft ignored or thought needing an update...like the "no adultery" one did...but the update to the fourth counters its original it does not amplify it...

I just want to understand you more, can you explain better? As for the Sabbath…Jesus IS THE SABBATH REST.

The written Word of God says that observing special days is WORTH LESS.




yes but all failed..some kept trying...some still do
No, not all failed. You believe what false teachers say. Look into it yourself.





And as the miracle of the Red Sea crossing was proof to the Hebrews He was deserving of love and worship so should the cross and what it did motivate our obedience...alas, like that church in the wilderness so many now seek comfort not vigilance and in turn seek to make changes less strict and demanding...
I am not sure what you are saying. All died in the desert and did not see the promised land because THEY DID NOT OBEY.




Like Sabbath is now Sunday? Unclean is clean?
Again, worshipping special days is NOTHING.

clefty
September 14th, 2016, 08:33 PM
…but I asked you. you are the one claiming there is new and improved law...





Observing special days is worthless now. worthless? Wow that's harsh...


Jesus is our Sabbath Rest and we worship Jesus all day every day. the irony that after all that about separating and sanctifying and making holy and designating clean and unclean and circumcision and promise to a remnant and creating a unique and peculiar people and blessing and anointing and setting apart and good vs evil and singling out and annointing narrow path for a chosen few, the memorials, and remembrances and specific symbols and sign with distinct meanings and functions...despite all that, it's just everyday the same thing.

What a kill joy...party pooper...boring...

Why have a Sunday then?...just work 7 days why don't ya? Funny how the Church has made quite a big deal with all its pomp and ceremony and feast days and holidays...big fanfare for that hour of power service before football starts...

Not sure where you get the idea that He replaces His Father's Law as He didn't say anything of that nature...that would be destroying or losing jots and tittles of His Law...


Oh good point; but how does that change anything? exactly...it doesn't. That first fruit first day of the week appearances would have been a most opportune time for Him to make an announcement and bring attention about worthless laws and memorials...but not a peep.


I have repeated myself and explained things so many times and I just don’t get bored with it.

There is creativity and challenges in maintaining a deception it's true...

A thrill with getting one by...




So? There was blood. You are doing a bad job of trying to disqualify God’s Word. lol...showing that observance of a day without the temple is possible because that day occurred before the temple is not disqualifying but establishing...which we are to do





The laws are from God; even the special days to observe were from God. not even Paul used past tense describing them because I guess he believed they were not worthless and stil binding and relevant...

From God indeed...but now He took them away? Hardly...He is no party pooper...we have new reasons to celebrate with new unleavened bread even...

He gave them to us...let no man cheat you


Jesus is the Sabbath. citation needed

As it is Yahushua is Lord of the Sabbath...it gives Him authority...by sayin He is the Sabbath you elevate it and bring Him down...that is idolatrous

Rest? if anything He is the reason there is more work to be done and more persecution to endure...luckily we His people still have a day...a sabbath keeping still...and He gives us rest and sends a Comforter...and when the work is done we will rest...or when our work is done we will fall asleep in Him...


The 10 commandments were not the only commandments. but in them is one you claim worthless...despite Isaiah even saying when we are finally in the rest of paradise we all will be keeping Sabbath to Sabbath...





I just want to understand you more, can you explain better? As for the Sabbath…Jesus IS THE SABBATH REST. I am trying here...

So who is the other six days?


The written Word of God says that observing special days is WORTH LESS.

Which translation is that?



No, not all failed. umm...yes they did...all have sinned...


You believe what false teachers say. Look into it yourself. ok



I am not sure what you are saying. All died in the desert and did not see the promised land because THEY DID NOT OBEY. you just said some obeyed all...

What's more they obeyed something which is worthless...





Again, worshipping special days is NOTHING.

Not worshipping days silly...because One can not become a day...days have to end ya dig?...and remembering to keep the seventh day holy and staying true to His calendar and times has added much to my life as they ARE a shadow the substance of which is their Maker.

I have a day off and 7 other amazing festivals that help give value and purpose for my life...I don't have counterfeit man made celebrations like Purim or Christmas New Years which are empty and fittingly lead to drunkeness...but real celebrations of time and seasons My Creator made for me...

God's Truth
September 15th, 2016, 12:42 AM
you are the one claiming there is new and improved law...




worthless? Wow that's harsh...

the irony that after all that about separating and sanctifying and making holy and designating clean and unclean and circumcision and promise to a remnant and creating a unique and peculiar people and blessing and anointing and setting apart and good vs evil and singling out and annointing narrow path for a chosen few, the memorials, and remembrances and specific symbols and sign with distinct meanings and functions...despite all that, it's just everyday the same thing.

What a kill joy...party pooper...boring...

Why have a Sunday then?...just work 7 days why don't ya? Funny how the Church has made quite a big deal with all its pomp and ceremony and feast days and holidays...big fanfare for that hour of power service before football starts...

Not sure where you get the idea that He replaces His Father's Law as He didn't say anything of that nature...that would be destroying or losing jots and tittles of His Law...

exactly...it doesn't. That first fruit first day of the week appearances would have been a most opportune time for Him to make an announcement and bring attention about worthless laws and memorials...but not a peep.



There is creativity and challenges in maintaining a deception it's true...

A thrill with getting one by...



lol...showing that observance of a day without the temple is possible because that day occurred before the temple is not disqualifying but establishing...which we are to do




not even Paul used past tense describing them because I guess he believed they were not worthless and stil binding and relevant...

From God indeed...but now He took them away? Hardly...He is no party pooper...we have new reasons to celebrate with new unleavened bread even...

He gave them to us...let no man cheat you

citation needed

As it is Yahushua is Lord of the Sabbath...it gives Him authority...by sayin He is the Sabbath you elevate it and bring Him down...that is idolatrous

Rest? if anything He is the reason there is more work to be done and more persecution to endure...luckily we His people still have a day...a sabbath keeping still...and He gives us rest and sends a Comforter...and when the work is done we will rest...or when our work is done we will fall asleep in Him...

but in them is one you claim worthless...despite Isaiah even saying when we are finally in the rest of paradise we all will be keeping Sabbath to Sabbath...




I am trying here...

So who is the other six days?



Which translation is that?


umm...yes they did...all have sinned...

ok


you just said some obeyed all...

What's more they obeyed something which is worthless...






Not worshipping days silly...because One can not become a day...days have to end ya dig?...and remembering to keep the seventh day holy and staying true to His calendar and times has added much to my life as they ARE a shadow the substance of which is their Maker.

I have a day off and 7 other amazing festivals that help give value and purpose for my life...I don't have counterfeit man made celebrations like Purim or Christmas New Years which are empty and fittingly lead to drunkeness...but real celebrations of time and seasons My Creator made for me...

Believe the scriptures that Jesus is the Sabbath and observing special days is worthless.

Galatians 4:9 But now that you know God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you are turning back to those weak and worthless principles?

Hebrews 4:8 Now if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For whoever enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His.…

clefty
September 15th, 2016, 05:59 AM
Believe the scriptures that Jesus is the Sabbath and observing special days is worthless.

Galatians 4:9 But now that you know God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you are turning back to those weak and worthless principles?

Hebrews 4:8 Now if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For whoever enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His.…

First text: is to Celtics who converted from pagan ways and were sliding back to them...those idols and their calendar of gods is worthless....

Second text: of course we have have the rest-paradise...still to look forward to...but for Yah's people there still remains a Sabbath rest keeping...

See? The rest which remains here is named Sabbath, not Jesus...a sabbath rest...not an eternal rest or 15 minute break...

Nor is Jesus named rest...

He could have written there remans a Jesus rest or rest in Him but he didn't...

Oh btw

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clefty
September 15th, 2016, 11:31 AM
Believe the scriptures that Jesus is the Sabbath and observing special days is worthless.

Galatians 4:9 But now that you know God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you are turning back to those weak and worthless principles?

Hebrews 4:8 Now if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10For whoever enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His.…

Had you read the opening peice you would realize you have Paul live and observe one way and teach another.

You are doing exactly what false witnesses were doing in attempts to slander Paul claiming he taught a change,even end, to the Law.

Peter even warned us Paul's writings were hard and would be falsely used...

These writers were killed for their uncompromising stance. Don't you think that if they could have made changes they would have?

You are thinking what you were instructed NOT to think...by the Law giver...

That jots and tittles were changed...

Do not think that...

God's Truth
September 15th, 2016, 11:55 AM
First text: is to Celtics who converted from pagan ways and were sliding back to them...those idols and their calendar of gods is worthless....
They were convinced by Jews to observe special days. Since Jesus, the observance of special days is not worthless.

God's Truth
September 15th, 2016, 11:56 AM
I can hardly believe that clefty does not know that the Galatians were talked into following the old law.

God's Truth
September 15th, 2016, 11:58 AM
Second text: of course we have have the rest-paradise...still to look forward to...but for Yah's people there still remains a Sabbath rest keeping...

Jesus is the Sabbath Rest. For you to think the observance of a day is up there with Jesus is just ludicrous.

A shadow of a man is not the man itself.

God's Truth
September 15th, 2016, 12:04 PM
See? The rest which remains here is named Sabbath, not Jesus...a sabbath rest...not an eternal rest or 15 minute break...

You just proved my case.




Nor is Jesus named rest...


Again, a day is not above God. A day is not equal with God. There are not four. There isn't the Father, Son, the Holy Spirit, and the Sabbath.

The Sabbath is a SHADOW.

A shadow is under and before the Man.

God's Truth
September 15th, 2016, 12:10 PM
Had you read the opening peice you would realize you have Paul live and observe one way and teach another.

You are doing exactly what false witnesses were doing in attempts to slander Paul claiming he taught a change,even end, to the Law.

Peter even warned us Paul's writings were hard and would be falsely used...

Peter said the unstable and unacknowledged misunderstand Paul about works, because after he said that, HE WARNS US TO OBEY.




These writers were killed for their uncompromising stance. Don't you think that if they could have made changes they would have?

You have the chance to believe the truth. I tell you, I will prove what I say with scripture, and if you consider it carefully, you will be blessed for it.



You are thinking what you were instructed NOT to think...by the Law giver...

That jots and tittles were changed...

Do not think that...

Hebrews 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

Hawkins
September 15th, 2016, 01:10 PM
I can hardly believe that clefty does not know that the Galatians were talked into following the old law.

No. The Jews in Galatia insist that the gentiles should observe the Jewish Law in order to be saved. Most issues at that time is due to the Jewish Christians would like the gentile Christians to follow the Jewish customs. The issues are not about if the Law is abolished, it's about how the Jews requesting the gentile Christians to follow the Jewish Law.

Hawkins
September 15th, 2016, 01:13 PM
Hebrews 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

This is what I have pointed out before. It is the only part of the old Law which needs to be changed. As whatever serving as a form of sacrifice will have to be forfeited as Jesus has done it once and for all. This however has nothing to do with other parts of the Law, including the 10 commandments.

Hawkins
September 15th, 2016, 01:15 PM
If you ask me, I am even ready to discard the concept of a Jew according to his or her bloodline. If the bloodline concept made a Jew out of a person, he or she would not lose it by embracing a different faith from the Jewish one. A "bloodline" Jew who become a Christian or Muslim or of any other religion, he or she would not cease being a Jew but they do. If you read Isaiah 56:1-8 those from among the Gentiles who decide to join God's Covenant with His People, get a name better than that of sons and daughters.

God said clearly that if you break the covenant you will be cut off from your people. That is, you are no long a Jew in the perspective of the coverage of the covenant.

clefty
September 15th, 2016, 01:18 PM
Peter said the unstable and unacknowledged misunderstand Paul about works, because after he said that, HE WARNS US TO OBEY.



You have the chance to believe the truth. I tell you, I will prove what I say with scripture, and if you consider it carefully, you will be blessed for it.



Hebrews 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.

So now Sunday Ham?

Lol...really?

The law was for who was priest to administer the ceremony to restore those to the immutable law...

No priest even for original Passover...or Abel's Noah's Abraham's sacrifices

But now because He Who gave the Law Himself is the high priest again... He changed it to permitting ham on Sunday?

clefty
September 15th, 2016, 05:41 PM
They were convinced by Jews to observe special days.

Convinced? They were converts...they wanted to join. You are insinuating that these new believers wished to play ball with the team but not wear the uniform much less keep the rules of the game...laughable.

They crowded synagogues everywhere on Sabbaths to hear about One resurrected from the dead and heard the Torah read to them as James said at the council.

What the issue became was that there were those from "the tribe" who began to insist gentiles be circumcised to be saved or even allowed to hang out with them...that was an error as even Abraham was chosen and considered righteous before being circumcised Moses too...

When you join a club you usually go along with the club rules...especially the traditional ones, the rules that define the club, the ones written by the Founding members. See? Then ya get the benefits of being in that club...And not just lost in some faceless crowd.


Since Jesus, the observance of special days is not worthless.

Typo? Or which special days are you meaning? These?
Nativity
the Epiphany,
the Ascension,
the Body and Blood of Christ,
Holy Mary the Mother of God,
her Immaculate Conception,
her Assumption,
Saint Joseph,
Saint Peter and Saint Paul the Apostles,
and All Saints.

They are obligated is true...and people who wish to be in the Church willingly do so...

It's usual to do something because you are a member not to become one...

clefty
September 15th, 2016, 05:43 PM
I can hardly believe that clefty does not know that the Galatians were talked into following the old law.

When you have both interest and time...

http://www.eliyah.com/galatianskjv.html

clefty
September 15th, 2016, 05:57 PM
Jesus is the Sabbath Rest. you keep saying it but have yet to show were it was said...


For you to think the observance of a day is up there with Jesus is just ludicrous. especially since I didn't say that I said obey Him...as He did...if you love Me do what? Eat Sunday Ham? No! you keep His commandments you establish them...rest one day in seven on the seventh...

You equate Him with rest itself. You just rest...no job...no work...no activities...no expenditure of energy? Get nothing done...why the slothful are nearly divine...

You actually have to do something to rest from doing it...but your abstraction of Jesus is rest equates Him to doing nothing...



A shadow of a man is not the man itself.

Sure points out where that man is...IS as in present tense...and as long as there is Light, there will be shadows to point to it...Sabbath is one...not was one...

clefty
September 15th, 2016, 06:14 PM
You just proved my case. no reading that the there still remains a Jesus rest for the people of Yah would prove your point...or reading that there still remains rest in Jesus would prove your point but I read there remains a SAbbath rest...actually a Sabbath keeping for the people of Yah...




Again, a day is not above God. A day is not equal with God. There are not four. There isn't the Father, Son, the Holy Spirit, and the Sabbath. sooo true...but that's what they do...lol

A day is a measurement of time, and there is a time frame that He set apart blessed sanctified and made holy...and asked us to Remember it to keep it that way. During that time there is rest...a state of being...being at rest...as He was...it is an invitation to be in a state like He is Holy and at rest...but for us it ends as well we are mortals...so there is rest but it ends...and just like in the garden it ended too


The Sabbath is a SHADOW. yup.. halleluYah...it sure is...and points out the Light...but worship of the sun gets much too hot...I prefer the shade


A shadow is under and before the Man.as is His law...and for me a path and surety for my way...

clefty
September 15th, 2016, 06:43 PM
Peter said the unstable and unacknowledged misunderstand Paul about works, because after he said that, HE WARNS US TO OBEY. they both taught us to obey...they warned of wolfs and snakes even angels who would be deceivers and who would preach another gospel...something different than the traditions which they taught...

Now you suppose they came up with a tradition that counters prior tradition? Paul kept sabbath and the feasts and Peter even kosher...




You have the chance to believe the truth. I tell you, I will prove what I say with scripture, and if you consider it carefully, you will be blessed for it.

Ok then..you do realize striking a rock with a staff was a command...walking around a walled city seven times was too...as was marrying a whore...some commandments were quite specific not intended for everyone all the time...the priestly line was like that...

Abel was his own priest too...



"Hebrews 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also."

Yup...the law changed is regarding who is priest...or can we kill steal fornicate worship other gods?

clefty
September 15th, 2016, 06:49 PM
God said clearly that if you break the covenant you will be cut off from your people. That is, you are no long a Jew in the perspective of the coverage of the covenant.

Not a race nor a religion do I see...
but a trick of semantics "the chosen" be...

God's Truth
September 17th, 2016, 12:08 AM
No. The Jews in Galatia insist that the gentiles should observe the Jewish Law in order to be saved. Most issues at that time is due to the Jewish Christians would like the gentile Christians to follow the Jewish customs. The issues are not about if the Law is abolished, it's about how the Jews requesting the gentile Christians to follow the Jewish Law.

There is only one law for Jews and Gentiles.

God's Truth
September 17th, 2016, 12:10 AM
This is what I have pointed out before. It is the only part of the old Law which needs to be changed. As whatever serving as a form of sacrifice will have to be forfeited as Jesus has done it once and for all. This however has nothing to do with other parts of the Law, including the 10 commandments.

It has to do with EVERYTHING.

God's Truth
September 17th, 2016, 12:16 AM
So now Sunday Ham?

Lol...really?

The law was for who was priest to administer the ceremony to restore those to the immutable law...

No priest even for original Passover...or Abel's Noah's Abraham's sacrifices

But now because He Who gave the Law Himself is the high priest again... He changed it to permitting ham on Sunday?

The written Word of God says the old law was about food and drink. The kingdom of God is not about that.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,

Hebrews 9:10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings--external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

God's Truth
September 17th, 2016, 12:20 AM
Convinced? They were converts...they wanted to join. You are insinuating that these new believers wished to play ball with the team but not wear the uniform much less keep the rules of the game...laughable.

They crowded synagogues everywhere on Sabbaths to hear about One resurrected from the dead and heard the Torah read to them as James said at the council.

What the issue became was that there were those from "the tribe" who began to insist gentiles be circumcised to be saved or even allowed to hang out with them...that was an error as even Abraham was chosen and considered righteous before being circumcised Moses too...

When you join a club you usually go along with the club rules...especially the traditional ones, the rules that define the club, the ones written by the Founding members. See? Then ya get the benefits of being in that club...And not just lost in some faceless crowd.



Typo? Or which special days are you meaning? These?
Nativity
the Epiphany,
the Ascension,
the Body and Blood of Christ,
Holy Mary the Mother of God,
her Immaculate Conception,
her Assumption,
Saint Joseph,
Saint Peter and Saint Paul the Apostles,
and All Saints.

They are obligated is true...and people who wish to be in the Church willingly do so...

It's usual to do something because you are a member not to become one...

The observance of special days is worthless that is what the written Word of God says.

Do you believe that Paul spoke the truth for all?

I am getting the idea about you that you are a Paul hater.

God's Truth
September 17th, 2016, 12:22 AM
When you have both interest and time...

http://www.eliyah.com/galatianskjv.html

If you would like to debate about Galatians, I would love to do that.

I am not going to that site to debate the writer of that article.

Please debate your beliefs with me here.

God's Truth
September 17th, 2016, 12:37 AM
you keep saying it but have yet to show were it was said...

Jesus says plainly that he is the rest.

Matthew 11:28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

Isaiah 28:12
He who said to them, "Here is rest, give rest to the weary," And, "Here is repose," but they would not listen.

You can be rebuked with only one scripture, but I gave you two. No scripture can be put aside.





especially since I didn't say that I said obey Him...as He did...if you love Me do what? Eat Sunday Ham? No! you keep His commandments you establish them...rest one day in seven on the seventh...

Jesus doesn't tell anyone to observe special days. Jesus did tell his disciples to do what the Pharisees said to do, because the Pharisees enforced the old law and the regulations for the temple, and they REJECTED CHRIST. The Pharisees enforced the old law by putting Jews in prison for believing and obeying Christ. Jesus wanted his disciples to do what the Pharisees said to do...and Jesus also said the temple would be destroyed. Now no one can do what the Pharisees said to do.



You equate Him with rest itself. You just rest...no job...no work...no activities...no expenditure of energy? Get nothing done...why the slothful are nearly divine...

All day every day I observe Jesus. All day every day I do what God says to do.




You actually have to do something to rest from doing it...but your abstraction of Jesus is rest equates Him to doing nothing...

That is right that not every one obeyed the works of the old law...however, that is why people were enemies of God. Now no one has to do the purification/ceremonial works to be near God because Jesus does the purification for all.



Sure points out where that man is...IS as in present tense...and as long as there is Light, there will be shadows to point to it...Sabbath is one...not was one...

No.

When there is light behind the man...there is a shadow before him...but when the light comes there are no shadows.

God's Truth
September 17th, 2016, 12:46 AM
no reading that the there still remains a Jesus rest for the people of Yah would prove your point...or reading that there still remains rest in Jesus would prove your point but I read there remains a SAbbath rest...actually a Sabbath keeping for the people of Yah...



sooo true...but that's what they do...lol

A day is a measurement of time, and there is a time frame that He set apart blessed sanctified and made holy...and asked us to Remember it to keep it that way. During that time there is rest...a state of being...being at rest...as He was...it is an invitation to be in a state like He is Holy and at rest...but for us it ends as well we are mortals...so there is rest but it ends...and just like in the garden it ended too

yup.. halleluYah...it sure is...and points out the Light...but worship of the sun gets much too hot...I prefer the shade

as is His law...and for me a path and surety for my way...

Jesus is the light. There are no shadows in light.

clefty
September 17th, 2016, 03:58 AM
There is only one law for Jews and Gentiles.

Yup... and of those...only one actually includes the gentile...ironic no?

Ex20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy STRANGER that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."



I used the big letters and bolded them so you can clearly see how if ANYONE were with Israel and well, where Yah Himself was...the Sabbath was for you...

It is still like that...

You with Israel?

With Yah?

clefty
September 17th, 2016, 05:17 AM
The written Word of God says the old law was about food and drink. The kingdom of God is not about that. Tell that to Adam and Eve who should have followed Paul's immediate advice to follow the Holy Spirit in peace and joy and NOT cause another to stumble...and fall...you know...disobey the Law.

"Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,"

Or does "in the Holy Spirit" include Sunday Ham? I rather think the Holy Spirit causes one to fully appreciate what is forbidden...clean and unclean...


Hebrews 9:10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings--external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

Yes, the new order has no external regulations what so ever...lol

clefty
September 17th, 2016, 05:53 AM
The observance of special days is worthless that is what the written Word of God says.

You keep saying...show me where Scripture does...


Do you believe that Paul spoke the truth for all? spoke? Absolutely. And he lived according to his speech. Keeping Sabbaths, and His calendar of feast days, kosher...or else how could he argue:

"They presented false witnesseswho said, "This man never stops speaking against this holy place and against the Law.

Yet my accusers did not find me debating with anyone in the temple or riling up a crowd in the synagogues or in the city.

I do confess to you, however, that I worship the God of our fathers according to the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,

After three days, he called together the leaders of the Jews. When they had gathered, he said to them, "Brothers, although I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers,

Then Paul made his defense: "I have done nothing wrong against the Jewish law or against the temple or against Caesar.""

See? He kept on keeping on...the interesting thing about that last one is he includes that he did nothing to annoy Caesar...now imagine if Paul was getting the Romans to worship another god on Caeser's day...Sunday was his day to be celebrated and worshipped...imagine him hearing about Paul stirring up the people to worship another God on his day...a non Roman god...a Man (of the hated joos even) Rome had already dispatched of...

You really need to think this out my friend...and read the study of the book of Acts this thread opens with...


I am getting the idea about you that you are a Paul hater.

Forget about my posting then...Twisting and distorting scripture as you do is a much bigger issue...

clefty
September 17th, 2016, 06:05 AM
If you would like to debate about Galatians, I would love to do that.

I am not going to that site to debate the writer of that article.

Please debate your beliefs with me here.

Didn't recommend that site for you to debate that author silly...

I recommended you a site with an alternative view more inclined to mine so as you know where I am coming from...kinda of a cheat sheet glimpse at my notes or a "here it comes" warning before your argument gets knocked out...

But from seeing you stumble over the book of Acts I think Galatians can wait...you already have shown you make Paul and others...oh and Another...all liars and hypocrites...

clefty
September 17th, 2016, 06:54 AM
Jesus says plainly that he is the rest.

Matthew 11:28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. for I am the rest.

There...fixed it for you so that you aren't lying...there is a world of difference between the two...literally...this world and the world to come


Isaiah 28:12
He who said to them, "Here is rest, give rest to the weary," And, "Here is repose," but they would not listen. ummm...a person is not being offered here...it is knowledge...a message...line upon line...

If it was intended to be Him then "rest" would be written with a big R...like seed was written Seed because it was in reference to Him


You can be rebuked with only one scripture, but I gave you two. No scripture can be put aside.

Yup scripture will not be thrown out...as for you you're at strike two...lol



Jesus doesn't tell anyone to observe special days. sure He did...when the end comes and the fleeing to the mountain begins, He singled out Sabbath...and to pray for for it to be kept and not desecrated with running far away and carrying things babies and children and getting all sweaty flustered and annoyed...that certainly is not rest...and certainly not what He had in mind for observing a special day...

He also said to do as He did...which was obey His Father's will...if you love Him

So...what did He do? Kept the Sabbath...Pharisees claimed He didn't...hmmmm are you a Pharisee?



Jesus did tell his disciples to do what the Pharisees said to do, because the Pharisees enforced the old law and the regulations for the temple, He also told the rich young ruler who asked what he must do to be saved to "keep the commandments"...


they REJECTED CHRIST. but not because He said "Eat Sunday ham!"


The Pharisees enforced the old law by putting Jews in prison for believing and obeying Christ. yes because Pharisees thought as you did...that the new believers were teaching change and destruction to the Law.


Jesus wanted his disciples to do what the Pharisees said to do... yup...with a new Spirit and intent...


and Jesus also said the temple would be destroyed. yup again...not because the Law was changed but because we are again, as Adam Abel Abraham were, our own priests with Him in our temple, made without hands, sitting on His mercy seat above the Law that points out sin...it's all internalized...


Now no one can do what the Pharisees said to do.

Except Pharisee Paul said now we can...


All day every day I observe Jesus. you watch Him? Do as He did do you?


All day every day I do what God says to do. which god is that because Yah said to keep the seventh day Holy...it is His...His Son fulfilled that obligation too...affirming it and not only teaching to keep the Law but as example by doing it...


That is right that not every one obeyed the works of the old law...however, that is why people were enemies of God. Now no one has to do the purification/ceremonial works to be near God because Jesus does the purification for all. many will call on Him but only those that do the will of His Father will be saved...

No one ever HAD to...they wanted to...




No.

When there is light behind the man...there is a shadow before him...but when the light comes there are no shadows.

Again...Paul writes present tense "ARE shadows" not past tense were

And as the scars in His hands will always be...we will have signs and symbols of what was done for our benefit...from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all come and worship...or are you making Isaiah a liar too...

A shame too...I like Isaiah

God's Truth
September 17th, 2016, 09:09 AM
Yup... and of those...only one actually includes the gentile...ironic no?

Ex20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy STRANGER that is within thy gates:

11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."



I used the big letters and bolded them so you can clearly see how if ANYONE were with Israel and well, where Yah Himself was...the Sabbath was for you...

It is still like that...

You with Israel?

With Yah?

You are posting about teaching tools and shadows, but you don't seem to understand the Teacher has come; the Light has come.

We do not use teaching tools anymore; and, there are no shadows in Light.

Observing special days is now worthless.

The only thing that matters now is being put in Jesus and observing him all day everyday.

How do we do that?

By obeying him.

We do that by the Spirit he gave us.

God's Truth
September 17th, 2016, 09:14 AM
Tell that to Adam and Eve who should have followed Paul's immediate advice to follow the Holy Spirit in peace and joy and NOT cause another to stumble...and fall...you know...disobey the Law.

"Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit,"

Or does "in the Holy Spirit" include Sunday Ham? I rather think the Holy Spirit causes one to fully appreciate what is forbidden...clean and unclean...



Yes, the new order has no external regulations what so ever...lol

We ALWAYS have to obey God.

It has always been about obeying God.

In the time of Adam and Eve, it was about obeying God with one thing...not to eat from a certain tree.

In the time of Noah, it was about obeying by not doing wicked things.

As for Abraham, it was about obeying everything God said.

As for the time of Moses, it was about obeying the ceremonial works of the law.

As for us now, it is about obeying Jesus' teachings.

It has always been about believing God and obeying Him.

God's Truth
September 17th, 2016, 09:16 AM
It is God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

It is NOT God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, the Sabbath Day Saturday, and the Holy Spirit.

You have put a SHADOW up there with God.

A shadow is not up there with Jesus who is up there.

The shadow is of Jesus Christ who is above everything and everyone.

The shadow is a teaching tool.

We do not use teaching tools anymore because the Teacher has come.

God's Truth
September 17th, 2016, 09:27 AM
Yes, the new order has no external regulations what so ever...lol

We have many things to do right. We have all the guidelines given by Jesus Christ for the New Covenant.

All Jesus' words are life.

When you obey Jesus and are saved, you know that the works of the purification/ceremonial works are no more.

Jesus did not come to earth and preach us how to do the old law Sabbath.

Jesus IS the Last, the Sabbath Day is the Last Day. Jesus is the First and the Last.

We no longer observe special days. We observe/live through Jesus all day every day.

How do we do that?

We search for God so that we can be saved...so that we can be His child...so we find Jesus' teachings...and we do what Jesus says so that we can be considered a child of God.

Jesus says when you drink his blood and eat his flesh, you will be given pure water to drink.

That pure water to drink is the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God and Jesus Christ.

Having faith in Jesus is as drinking his blood.

Obeying Jesus' teaching s as eating his flesh.

After we eat and drink, we are given pure water to drink.

God's Truth
September 17th, 2016, 09:51 AM
You keep saying...show me where Scripture does...

spoke? Absolutely. And he lived according to his speech. Keeping Sabbaths, and His calendar of feast days, kosher...or else how could he argue:

"They presented false witnesseswho said, "This man never stops speaking against this holy place and against the Law.

Yet my accusers did not find me debating with anyone in the temple or riling up a crowd in the synagogues or in the city.

I do confess to you, however, that I worship the God of our fathers according to the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,

After three days, he called together the leaders of the Jews. When they had gathered, he said to them, "Brothers, although I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers,

Then Paul made his defense: "I have done nothing wrong against the Jewish law or against the temple or against Caesar.""

See? He kept on keeping on...the interesting thing about that last one is he includes that he did nothing to annoy Caesar...now imagine if Paul was getting the Romans to worship another god on Caeser's day...Sunday was his day to be celebrated and worshipped...imagine him hearing about Paul stirring up the people to worship another God on his day...a non Roman god...a Man (of the hated joos even) Rome had already dispatched of...

You really need to think this out my friend...and read the study of the book of Acts this thread opens with...



Forget about my posting then...Twisting and distorting scripture as you do is a much bigger issue...

I already explained it to you. The earthly temple was still standing and the Pharisees and teachers of the law ENFORCED THE OLD LAW while they REJECTED JESUS and had him KILLED.

Who killed the LAMB?

Those who sat in Moses' seat...the priests killed the lambs, and any and all animals for the blood.

Jesus told his disciples to do that the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to do.

Jesus also said the temple would be destroyed.

Just because Jesus did not want all his disciples killed right off does NOT mean the Pharisees and teachers of the law taught right.

There. is. no. more. earthly. temple.

No one has to observe a special day anymore.

Jesus is the only thing special.

God's Truth
September 17th, 2016, 09:57 AM
You keep saying...show me where Scripture does...

The Sabbath is about Rest. Jesus is our Rest. I already gave you scriptures.

Paul says observing special days are worthless. I gave you the scripture for that too.





spoke? Absolutely. And he lived according to his speech. Keeping Sabbaths, and His calendar of feast days, kosher...or else how could he argue:

"They presented false witnesseswho said, "This man never stops speaking against this holy place and against the Law.

Yet my accusers did not find me debating with anyone in the temple or riling up a crowd in the synagogues or in the city.

I do confess to you, however, that I worship the God of our fathers according to the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,

After three days, he called together the leaders of the Jews. When they had gathered, he said to them, "Brothers, although I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers,

Then Paul made his defense: "I have done nothing wrong against the Jewish law or against the temple or against Caesar.""

See? He kept on keeping on...the interesting thing about that last one is he includes that he did nothing to annoy Caesar...now imagine if Paul was getting the Romans to worship another god on Caeser's day...Sunday was his day to be celebrated and worshipped...imagine him hearing about Paul stirring up the people to worship another God on his day...a non Roman god...a Man (of the hated joos even) Rome had already dispatched of...

I am talking about the Jews and not about Caesar. Caesar did not want to be involved in the Jewish traditions.

I already explained all that to you too: WHEN THE TEMPLE WAS STILL STANDING…the rules for it were enforced by Christ haters---the Pharisees and teachers of the law who would have you arrested and put to death for not obeying.






You really need to think this out my friend...and read the study of the book of Acts this thread opens with...
You are silly if you think I have not read the book of Acts.



Forget about my posting then...Twisting and distorting scripture as you do is a much bigger issue...
I do no such thing. Maybe it is what you do.

God's Truth
September 17th, 2016, 09:59 AM
Didn't recommend that site for you to debate that author silly...

I recommended you a site with an alternative view more inclined to mine so as you know where I am coming from...kinda of a cheat sheet glimpse at my notes or a "here it comes" warning before your argument gets knocked out...

But from seeing you stumble over the book of Acts I think Galatians can wait...you already have shown you make Paul and others...oh and Another...all liars and hypocrites...

I do no such thing. As for that article that you want me to read...no, you post here what you believe about that article. You want me to do your work for you. I am not sending you off to read from a site that explains my beliefs, nor should you.

God's Truth
September 17th, 2016, 10:04 AM
There...fixed it for you so that you aren't lying...there is a world of difference between the two...literally...this world and the world to come

ummm...a person is not being offered here...it is knowledge...a message...line upon line...

If it was intended to be Him then "rest" would be written with a big R...like seed was written Seed because it was in reference to Him



Yup scripture will not be thrown out...as for you you're at strike two...lol


sure He did...when the end comes and the fleeing to the mountain begins, He singled out Sabbath...and to pray for for it to be kept and not desecrated with running far away and carrying things babies and children and getting all sweaty flustered and annoyed...that certainly is not rest...and certainly not what He had in mind for observing a special day...

He also said to do as He did...which was obey His Father's will...if you love Him

So...what did He do? Kept the Sabbath...Pharisees claimed He didn't...hmmmm are you a Pharisee?


He also told the rich young ruler who asked what he must do to be saved to "keep the commandments"...

but not because He said "Eat Sunday ham!"

yes because Pharisees thought as you did...that the new believers were teaching change and destruction to the Law.

yup...with a new Spirit and intent...

yup again...not because the Law was changed but because we are again, as Adam Abel Abraham were, our own priests with Him in our temple, made without hands, sitting on His mercy seat above the Law that points out sin...it's all internalized...



Except Pharisee Paul said now we can...

you watch Him? Do as He did do you?

which god is that because Yah said to keep the seventh day Holy...it is His...His Son fulfilled that obligation too...affirming it and not only teaching to keep the Law but as example by doing it...

many will call on Him but only those that do the will of His Father will be saved...

No one ever HAD to...they wanted to...





Again...Paul writes present tense "ARE shadows" not past tense were

And as the scars in His hands will always be...we will have signs and symbols of what was done for our benefit...from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all come and worship...or are you making Isaiah a liar too...

A shame too...I like Isaiah

Now go reread everything that I posted in reply to you. Maybe it will sink into your ears.

Flaminggg
September 17th, 2016, 11:58 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJIjNs_s2NI

1. Blood Sacrifice (Old Testament Theme) (Chastisement of the "Hearing of the Word", by invoking the Angels in the Churches)
2. Abstaining from Intercession (New Testament Theme) (Chastisement of the "Hearing of the Word", no respect of persons or churches) (No Signs or Visions to Reprove the Churches)
3. Condemnation by the Lord's Body (Revelation Theme) (Chastisement of the "Hearing of the Word", through the Sign of Divorce given to the Nations (Churches))

1. Jesus called the disciples to witness him sweat blood before betrayal by Judas
2. Jesus threw out all the money changes in the churches
3. Jesus called the congregation into the wilderness to break bread and fishes

(When did Jesus stop observing the Old Testament??? When did Jesus forbid a Sign or an Angel from chastisement of the Church??? Jesus stopped his miracles and the chastisement of the church shortly before he was taken into custody by Judas, so that is probably the best answer. We have not Signs or Visions to reprove mankind until we reach the Events of Revelation, then, mankind is cleansed according to their transgression against the Lord's Body (Blood Sacrifice of Genetic Dan to reveal more of the Sign of Divorce, after tolerating Genetic Dan for a season, with the immediate prospect of cleansing Genetic Dan in the City of Philadelphia and relative area for the Sign of Divorce) Love and Blessings (We have not reached the Events of Revelation, but we should be less than a year away for sure)

clefty
September 17th, 2016, 02:14 PM
You are posting about teaching tools and shadows, but you don't seem to understand the Teacher has come; the Light has come.

Oh now it's teaching tools...eluding to the tutor...well let me ask you something...say it's math we are being taught...just because the teacher comes do we stop doing math? Or begin computing 1+1=3?

You seem to think that just because Yahushua arrived we stop what we learned or make changes as we wish...


We do not use teaching tools anymore; and, there are no shadows in Light. you need to...your calculation is wrong


Observing special days is now worthless. says you but Paul and the Teacher both taught and exemplified the opposite...


The only thing that matters now is being put in Jesus and observing him all day everyday.

How do we do that?

By obeying him.

We do that by the Spirit he gave us.

Obeying what again? Something contrary previous law? You would have the Holy Spirit lead us against the will of the Father?

If you observe Him you will do as He did...even take up your cross and follow Him...do so and you will never have Sunday Ham again...as He never did...

Obey Him His way indeed...As He obeyed His Father's will

clefty
September 17th, 2016, 02:16 PM
We ALWAYS have to obey God.

It has always been about obeying God.

In the time of Adam and Eve, it was about obeying God with one thing...not to eat from a certain tree.

In the time of Noah, it was about obeying by not doing wicked things.

As for Abraham, it was about obeying everything God said.

As for the time of Moses, it was about obeying the ceremonial works of the law.

As for us now, it is about obeying Jesus' teachings.

It has always been about believing God and obeying Him.

Ok good so see you next Sabbath keeping it Holy...

As He did..instructing even that we pray so we don't break it to flee to the mountains...

God's Truth
September 17th, 2016, 02:20 PM
Ok good so see you next Sabbath keeping it Holy...

Jesus is the Sabbath Day.



As He did..instructing even that we pray so we don't break it to flee to the mountains...

That was to the Jews for when the temple would be destroyed.

clefty
September 17th, 2016, 02:20 PM
It is God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

It is NOT God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, the Sabbath Day Saturday, and the Holy Spirit.

You have put a SHADOW up there with God.

A shadow is not up there with Jesus who is up there.

The shadow is of Jesus Christ who is above everything and everyone.

The shadow is a teaching tool.

We do not use teaching tools anymore because the Teacher has come.

Of course we don't worship a day...but those three do rest on it...it is Holy and a memorial...not for them as I think they would remember...

pity you don't use the teaching tool still...as you are not in accordance to what it teaches...

God's Truth
September 17th, 2016, 02:31 PM
Of course we don't worship a day...but those three do rest on it...it is Holy and a memorial...not for them as I think they would remember...

pity you don't use the teaching tool still...as you are not in accordance to what it teaches...

I do not have shadows I have Jesus Christ Himself.

I do not have teachings tools I have the Teacher Himself.

clefty
September 17th, 2016, 02:43 PM
Jesus is the Sabbath Day.


That was to the Jews for when the temple would be destroyed.

A building was destroyed not the Law or its calendar...there remained those that keep it

clefty
September 17th, 2016, 02:47 PM
I do not have shadows I have Jesus Christ Himself.

I do not have teachings tools I have the Teacher Himself.

And He teaches you contrary to previous Law?

You might think you have Him but does He have you?

You seem to build a golden calf and claim it's yours...it is...good luck

God's Truth
September 17th, 2016, 02:56 PM
A building was destroyed not the Law or its calendar...there remained those that keep it

Try to actually debate what I say. Your mere insults and denial is not defense for truth.

God's Truth
September 17th, 2016, 03:02 PM
And He teaches you contrary to previous Law?

Jesus taught changes to the old law.

The old law says to take the eye from someone who caused another to lose their eye, and to take the hand, foot...Think about it. How did Jesus change it?

The old law says you can divorce three times. How did Jesus change it?

The old law says a thief can be put to death. Jesus changed it to the needy being helped not put to death for stealing.

The old law says you are unclean if you eat pork... Jesus said what goes in does not make anyone unclean, but rather what comes out of them.




You might think you have Him but does He have you?

I have a powerful testimony of when I was saved. Your accusations and innuendos can never touch what I have.



You seem to build a golden calf and claim it's yours...it is...good luck

The written Word of God says people blasphemy things they do not understand. You.

CherubRam
September 17th, 2016, 03:06 PM
The disciples themselves kept the Old Covenant laws until the temple was destroyed. After that they preached that we are the temple. Before the destruction of the temple, they preached that the new converts did not have to keep the Old Covenant commands.

God's Truth
September 17th, 2016, 03:09 PM
The disciples themselves kept the Old Covenant laws until the temple was destroyed. After that they preached that we are the temple. Before the destruction of the temple, they preached that the new converts did not have to keep the Old Covenant commands.

Jesus taught we would be the temple of God when the Holy Spirit would be given.

The disciples were temples of God even before the temple was destroyed, but the old law temple regulations were still enforced by the Pharisees and teachers of the law.

CherubRam
September 17th, 2016, 03:11 PM
The New Covenant is the Sabbath and all of the moral commands. Circumcision, Festivals, sacrifices, and the old priesthood is what was done away with.

CherubRam
September 17th, 2016, 03:15 PM
2 Corinthians 6:16.
What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: "I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people."
17"Therefore come out from them and be separate, says the Lord.
Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you."
18"I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says Yahwah Almighty."

Revelation 21:22.
I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.