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Samie
March 11th, 2016, 06:44 PM
1. Arminians teach a general, but conditional, atonement.Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved.2. Calvinists teach a limited atonement.Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save certain, specific individuals called the ELECT and secured for them everything necessary for their eternal salvation.3. Scriptures teach a general, unconditional and unlimited atonement.All of Adam's race were saved, are being saved, BUT only those whose names remain written in the book of life will finally be saved and inherit life eternal.Which among the 3 above do you believe in?

exminister
March 11th, 2016, 06:55 PM
I can't figure out the one you are leaning towards. ;)

Samie
March 11th, 2016, 07:05 PM
I don't teach #1. Why?

#1 requires man to first believe so that he can be in Christ. This implies man is born NOT in Christ. And if one is not in Christ, he is spiritually dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). So how can man, while NOT in Christ and therefore dead, able to believe? Didn't Christ Himself say that apart from Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5)? Why NOTHING? Because the dead can do NOTHING!

To teach #1 is to teach what is diametrically opposite to what Jesus said that apart from Him man can do NOTHING. And yet a vast majority of preachers teach this brand of gospel.

Samie
March 11th, 2016, 07:23 PM
I don't teach #2, either. Why?

Because #2 does not teach the gospel that Jesus preached. The gospel that Jesus preached calls people to repentance (Mark 1:14, 15) because according to Him, unless people repent they shall perish (Luke 13:3, 5).

Who are being called to repent? If the elect, then, unless they repent the elect shall likewise perish, disproving #2. If the non-elect, then the non-elect could also be saved if they repent, likewise disproving #2.

Samie
March 11th, 2016, 07:29 PM
I can't figure out the one you are leaning towards. ;)I believe and teach #3.

For me, it's the brand of gospel Jesus wanted preached to the world before He comes again (Matt 24:14). The world had for centuries been bombarded both by #1 & #2. It's time, I guess, to preach to the world #3. And perhaps, our Lord can then come.

Samie
March 11th, 2016, 10:26 PM
3. Scriptures teach a general, unconditional and unlimited atonement.All of Adam's race were saved, are being saved, BUT only those whose names remain written in the book of life will finally be saved and inherit life eternal.God foreknew that Man will fall into sin, and so He set in place the plan of redemption even before He created this world. Contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of Christ, God saved us by His grace given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time. After He created Adam, God told him he will surely die the day he eats the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

When Adam sinned, God set into motion the plan of redemption. Instead of man dying, an animal died in his place that same day he sinned, pointing forward to the death of the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. No wonder Christ is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

exminister
March 12th, 2016, 12:00 AM
I don't teach #2, either. Why?

Because #2 does not teach the gospel that Jesus preached. The gospel that Jesus preached calls people to repentance (Mark 1:14, 15) because according to Him, unless people repent they shall perish (Luke 13:3, 5).

Who are being called to repent? If the elect, then, unless they repent the elect shall likewise perish, disproving #2. If the non-elect, then the non-elect could also be saved if they repent, likewise disproving #2.

Many are called, few are chosen? :idunno:

exminister
March 12th, 2016, 12:08 AM
I don't teach #1. Why?

#1 requires man to first believe so that he can be in Christ. This implies man is born NOT in Christ. And if one is not in Christ, he is spiritually dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). So how can man, while NOT in Christ and therefore dead, able to believe? Didn't Christ Himself say that apart from Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5)? Why NOTHING? Because the dead can do NOTHING!

To teach #1 is to teach what is diametrically opposite to what Jesus said that apart from Him man can do NOTHING. And yet a vast majority of preachers teach this brand of gospel.


I don't teach #2, either. Why?

Because #2 does not teach the gospel that Jesus preached. The gospel that Jesus preached calls people to repentance (Mark 1:14, 15) because according to Him, unless people repent they shall perish (Luke 13:3, 5).

Who are being called to repent? If the elect, then, unless they repent the elect shall likewise perish, disproving #2. If the non-elect, then the non-elect could also be saved if they repent, likewise disproving #2.

So your argument against #1 is man has no choice but to do evil and your argument against #2 is non-elect might repent. How does that not conflict? Guy #1 can do nothing. Guy #2 can do something.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 12th, 2016, 12:09 AM
I'll choose door number 1. Christ died for the sins of ALL humanity, however, only those who hear the Gospel of their salvation and place their faith in Christ as their Savior will reap the benefits. Those who reject God's Grace will stand before Him and be judged according to their works. They will then, be cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity.

exminister
March 12th, 2016, 12:12 AM
God foreknew that Man will fall into sin, and so He set in place the plan of redemption even before He created this world. Contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of Christ, God saved us by His grace given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time. After He created Adam, God told him he will surely die the day he eats the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

When Adam sinned, God set into motion the plan of redemption. Instead of man dying, an animal died in his place that same day he sinned, pointing forward to the death of the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. No wonder Christ is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Those who believe in #1 and #2 would agree with #3.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 12th, 2016, 12:12 AM
Christ was preaching to the lost sheep of the House of Israel in Matthew through John. He wasn't preaching to the Gentiles.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 12th, 2016, 12:14 AM
Matthew 15:24 "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Grosnick Marowbe
March 12th, 2016, 12:18 AM
Galations 2:7 "But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;" It was Paul that was sent to the Gentiles (uncircumcised) with the Grace Gospel. Peter and the rest were sent to the Circumcised to preach the Kingdom Gospel.

exminister
March 12th, 2016, 12:23 AM
3.Scriptures teach a general, unconditional and unlimited atonement.All of Adam's race were saved, are being saved, BUT only those whose names remain written in the book of life will finally be saved and inherit life eternal.Which among the 3 above do you believe in?

What do you mean by ALL are saved? How are those not finally saved, saved?

Ask Mr. Religion
March 12th, 2016, 12:34 AM
1. Arminians teach a general, but conditional, atonement.Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved.2. Calvinists teach a limited atonement.Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save certain, specific individuals called the ELECT and secured for them everything necessary for their eternal salvation.3. Scriptures teach a general, unconditional and unlimited atonement.All of Adam's race were saved, are being saved, BUT only those whose names remain written in the book of life will finally be saved and inherit life eternal.Which among the 3 above do you believe in?
Well, you have already odd views (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116381-The-Book-of-Life-amp-Calvinism&p=4636847&viewfull=1#post4636847), so the above, especially that "Adam's race" bit, is not unexpected. :AMR:

Calvinists affirm what we believe Scripture plainly teaches. If you sincerely want to know more about this topic, the following is a reasonable explanation of the teachings from Scripture:
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/limitedatonement.html

The reasons for a restricted atonement are simple. The unbeliever will never seek God's righteousness, for the unbeliever

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- is not able to come to Jesus unless given to by God (Eph. 2:2);
- must be quickened by God (Eph. 2:4-5);
- cannot choose righteousness until regenerated (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116752-Scriptures-that-Refute-Calvinism&p=4643747&highlight=#post4643747) (Titus 3:5);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Given this woeful state of the lost, the only possible solution is that God and God alone must act. The lost are not seeking God, they are running from God, so God must do something to them such that they will be actually able to believe. What does God do? Ezekiel 36:26. Given this, and since not all are saved, it follows that there is a restricted element to salvation. The restriction being for those God has mercifully quickened, those God the Father has given to God the Son as a result of His active and passive obedience in atonement for these persons sins (John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9;John 17:22; John 18:9). Those so quickened by God the Holy Spirit are a great multitude no man can number.

What our Lord did was not some potential atonement, but an actual atonement.

AMR

Crucible
March 12th, 2016, 12:44 AM
This thread is supremely erroneous, as it is essentially a complaint that Christianity is not 'one size fits all' under a guise that other theologies 'limit God's power to save'.

Also,
Unconditional Election.

Nice straw man- focusing solely on Limited Atonement.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 12th, 2016, 12:48 AM
Well, you have already odd views (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116381-The-Book-of-Life-amp-Calvinism&p=4636847&viewfull=1#post4636847), so the above, especially that "Adam's race" bit, is not unexpected. :AMR:

Calvinists affirm what we believe Scripture plainly teaches. If you sincerely want to know more about this topic, the following is a reasonable explanation of the teachings from Scripture:
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/limitedatonement.html

The reasons for a restricted atonement are simple. The unbeliever will never seek God's righteousness, for the unbeliever

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- is not able to come to Jesus unless given to by God (Eph. 2:2);
- must be quickened by God (Eph. 2:4-5);
- cannot choose righteousness until regenerated (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116752-Scriptures-that-Refute-Calvinism&p=4643747&highlight=#post4643747) (Titus 3:5);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Given this woeful state of the lost, the only possible solution is that God and God alone must act. The lost are not seeking God, they are running from God, so God must do something to them such that they will be actually able to believe. What does God do? Ezekiel 36:26. Given this, and since not all are saved, it follows that there is a restricted element to salvation. The restriction being for those God has mercifully quickened, those God the Father has given to God the Son as a result of His active and passive obedience in atonement for these persons sins. Those so quickened by God the Holy Spirit are a great multitude no man can number.

What our Lord did was not some potential atonement, but an actual atonement.

AMR

Pure 100% Calvinism. Calvinism (Reformed theology) is a false doctrine that changes the character and intent of the God of the Bible. It's mentor "John Calvin" known as, "The Pope of Geneva," was complicit in the execution murders of over fifty some people who disagreed with Calvin. He also was involved with burning, so-called witches at the stake. Someone once said: "You can take Calvin out of the Catholic church but you can't take the Catholic church out of Calvin." Calvin was an evil man.

Samie
March 12th, 2016, 12:54 AM
So your argument against #1 is man has no choice but to do evil and your argument against #2 is non-elect might repent. How does that not conflict? Guy #1 can do nothing. Guy #2 can do something.I don't think you are understanding me correctly. Please read my post #3 & post #4 again.

Samie
March 12th, 2016, 01:11 AM
I'll choose door number 1. Christ died for the sins of ALL humanity, however, only those who hear the Gospel of their salvation and place their faith in Christ as their Savior will reap the benefits. Those who reject God's Grace will stand before Him and be judged according to their works. They will then, be cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity.Thanks, GM. I think you need to thoroughly address my post #3 quoted below:
I don't teach #1. Why?

#1 requires man to first believe so that he can be in Christ. This implies man is born NOT in Christ. And if one is not in Christ, he is spiritually dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). So how can man, while NOT in Christ and therefore dead, able to believe? Didn't Christ Himself say that apart from Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5)? Why NOTHING? Because the dead can do NOTHING!

To teach #1 is to teach what is diametrically opposite to what Jesus said that apart from Him man can do NOTHING. And yet a vast majority of preachers teach this brand of gospel.Is becoming part of the body of Christ one of the benefits being reaped by those who hear the gospel and place their faith in Christ? Please explain your position clearly delineating how it does not contradict Jesus' statement that apart from Him man can do NOTHiNG.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 12th, 2016, 01:51 AM
Thanks, GM. I think you need to thoroughly address my post #3 quoted below:Is becoming part of the body of Christ one of the benefits being reaped by those who hear the gospel and place their faith in Christ? Please explain your position clearly delineating how it does not contradict Jesus' statement that apart from Him man can do NOTHiNG.

I chose the number. I have nothing more to add. I don't feel I owe you an explanation. Obviously, you have an agenda.

Samie
March 12th, 2016, 02:29 AM
What do you mean by ALL are saved? How are those not finally saved, saved?In the Bible, salvation comes in 3 tenses: Past, Present, Future.

Past:NKJ Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God

2 Timothy 1:9-10 9 [God] has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospelPresent:NKJ 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

NKJ 2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing.Future:NKJ Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

NKJ Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.All of Adam's race are benefaciaries of the past and present tenses of salvation, but only those whose names remain written in the book of life will benefit from the future tense of salvation. Those whose names were blotted out will not inherit life eternal although they benefited from the past and present tenses of salvation.

Samie
March 12th, 2016, 02:30 AM
I chose the number. I have nothing more to add. I don't feel I owe you an explanation. Obviously, you have an agenda.Well, well. Thanks again, GM. I thought I was simply giving you an opportunity to explain. But I honor your refusal.

Agenda? Of course, I have an agenda. And that is to preach the gospel Jesus wanted preached to the world before He comes again. Is my agenda erroneous?

Samie
March 12th, 2016, 02:42 AM
Well, you have already odd views (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116381-The-Book-of-Life-amp-Calvinism&p=4636847&viewfull=1#post4636847), so the above, especially that "Adam's race" bit, is not unexpected. :AMR:

Calvinists affirm what we believe Scripture plainly teaches. If you sincerely want to know more about this topic, the following is a reasonable explanation of the teachings from Scripture:
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/limitedatonement.html

The reasons for a restricted atonement are simple. The unbeliever will never seek God's righteousness, for the unbeliever

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- is not able to come to Jesus unless given to by God (Eph. 2:2);
- must be quickened by God (Eph. 2:4-5);
- cannot choose righteousness until regenerated (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116752-Scriptures-that-Refute-Calvinism&p=4643747&highlight=#post4643747) (Titus 3:5);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Given this woeful state of the lost, the only possible solution is that God and God alone must act. The lost are not seeking God, they are running from God, so God must do something to them such that they will be actually able to believe. What does God do? Ezekiel 36:26. Given this, and since not all are saved, it follows that there is a restricted element to salvation. The restriction being for those God has mercifully quickened, those God the Father has given to God the Son as a result of His active and passive obedience in atonement for these persons sins. Those so quickened by God the Holy Spirit are a great multitude no man can number.

What our Lord did was not some potential atonement, but an actual atonement.

AMRThanks AMR, for your response. I thought you would never discuss with me again.

In post #4 (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116948-Arminians-amp-Calvinists-Limit-God-s-Power-To-Save&p=4647377&viewfull=1#post4647377), I stated my simple reason why I do not teach nor believe in a limited atonement. Could you please directly address that post? Thank you in advance for directly addressing it, my brother.

Samie
March 12th, 2016, 02:49 AM
This thread is supremely erroneous, as it is essentially a complaint that Christianity is not 'one size fits all' under a guise that other theologies 'limit God's power to save'.

Also,
Unconditional Election.

Nice straw man- focusing solely on Limited Atonement.Thanks for the name, my brother.

This whole thread could not be totally erroneous or your post, being in this thread, is likewise erroneous. Would you mind directly addressing what you call the "supremely erroneous" portions of this thread? Show how or why, using Scriptures, that indeed they are erroneous.

exminister
March 12th, 2016, 08:47 AM
I don't teach #1. Why?

#1 requires man to first believe so that he can be in Christ. This implies man is born NOT in Christ. And if one is not in Christ, he is spiritually dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). So how can man, while NOT in Christ and therefore dead, able to believe? Didn't Christ Himself say that apart from Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5)? Why NOTHING? Because the dead can do NOTHING!

To teach #1 is to teach what is diametrically opposite to what Jesus said that apart from Him man can do NOTHING. And yet a vast majority of preachers teach this brand of gospel.


I don't teach #2, either. Why?

Because #2 does not teach the gospel that Jesus preached. The gospel that Jesus preached calls people to repentance (Mark 1:14, 15) because according to Him, unless people repent they shall perish (Luke 13:3, 5).

Who are being called to repent? If the elect, then, unless they repent the elect shall likewise perish, disproving #2. If the non-elect, then the non-elect could also be saved if they repent, likewise disproving #2.


So your argument against #1 is man has no choice but to do evil and your argument against #2 is non-elect might repent. How does that not conflict? Guy #1 can do nothing. Guy #2 can do something.


I don't think you are understanding me correctly. Please read my post #3 & post #4 again.


Re-read.
Guy #1 can do NOTHING without Christ, so "free-will" is a non-starter.
Guy #2 non-elect (not chosen by God) can choose to become elect. He can choose.
(Many are called but few are chosen)

They still conflict.

exminister
March 12th, 2016, 09:01 AM
What do you mean by ALL are saved? How are those not finally saved, saved?


In the Bible, salvation comes in 3 tenses: Past, Present, Future.

Past:NKJ Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God

2 Timothy 1:9-10 9 [God] has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospelPresent:NKJ 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

NKJ 2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing.Future:NKJ Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

NKJ Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.All of Adam's race are benefaciaries of the past and present tenses of salvation, but only those whose names remain written in the book of life will benefit from the future tense of salvation. Those whose names were blotted out will not inherit life eternal although they benefited from the past and present tenses of salvation.

Your PAST quote does NOT include ALL. It only includes those who were saved through faith, which is a remnant. You need a better text for ALL humans.

Samie
March 12th, 2016, 12:27 PM
Re-read.
Guy #1 can do NOTHING without Christ, so "free-will" is a non-starter.
Guy #2 non-elect (not chosen by God) can choose to become elect. He can choose.
(Many are called but few are chosen)

They still conflict.There is free-will when one is in Christ, so your first statement is not accurate.

All in Adam's race were chosen before the foundation of the world, so your second statement is also not accurate.

So, it's your own statements that conflict. Use my own statements in posts #3 & #4 and show me how or why they conflict.

exminister
March 12th, 2016, 12:41 PM
Gee, Samie. I showed how they conflicted more than once.
Sorry you cannot get it. Oh well.

Samie
March 12th, 2016, 12:43 PM
Your PAST quote does NOT include ALL. It only includes those who were saved through faith, which is a remnant. You need a better text for ALL humans.2 Tim 1:8-9 includes all humans, since the time frame is before the beginning of time when God Who is not a respecter of persons gave us His grace through which He saved us all. That saving in the past empowered us all to overcome evil, and made us all accountable. BUT only overcomers will finally make it to eternity.NKJ 1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

Samie
March 12th, 2016, 12:46 PM
Gee, Samie. I showed how they conflicted more than once.
Sorry you cannot get it. Oh well.Please use my statements. Putting words into my mouth won't do it pretty well.

Ask Mr. Religion
March 12th, 2016, 01:15 PM
Pure 100% Calvinism. Calvinism (Reformed theology) is a false doctrine that changes the character and intent of the God of the Bible. It's mentor "John Calvin" known as, "The Pope of Geneva," was complicit in the execution murders of over fifty some people who disagreed with Calvin. He also was involved with burning, so-called witches at the stake. Someone once said: "You can take Calvin out of the Catholic church but you can't take the Catholic church out of Calvin." Calvin was an evil man.
Thank you for stopping by with the usual opinion, GM. Noted.

We have discussed this at length and you show no willingness to consider the fallacies you are adopting. Here is an all in one place summary once more for your careful consideration:

http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?3060-The-quot-Calvin-is-a-Murderer-quot-Meme

I regret having assumed you were a reasonable person and were willing to be more circumspect. It seems you have been disingenuous with me all along or are incapable of restraining your choleric nature.

AMR

Ask Mr. Religion
March 12th, 2016, 01:21 PM
Agenda? Of course, I have an agenda. And that is to preach the gospel Jesus wanted preached to the world before He comes again. Is my agenda erroneous?
As noted here:
http://opc.org/os.html?article_id=158&issue_id=46

Question 158 of the Westminster Larger Catechism (http://www.reformed.org/documents/wlc_w_proofs/index.html):
Q. By whom is the Word of God to be preached?

A. The Word of God is to be preached only by such as are sufficiently gifted, and also duly approved and called to that office.

AMR

Ask Mr. Religion
March 12th, 2016, 01:24 PM
I stated my simple reason why I do not teach nor believe in a limited atonement. Could you please directly address that post? Thank you in advance for directly addressing it, my brother.
I fear explanations explanatory of things explained:

https://www.monergism.com/thethresho...atonement.html (https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/limitedatonement.html)

AMR

Samie
March 12th, 2016, 01:34 PM
As noted here:
http://opc.org/os.html?article_id=158&issue_id=46

Question 158 of the Westminster Larger Catechism (http://www.reformed.org/documents/wlc_w_proofs/index.html):
Q. By whom is the Word of God to be preached?

A. The Word of God is to be preached only by such as are sufficiently gifted, and also duly approved and called to that office.

AMRKJV Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

KJV 1 Corinthians 1:19-20 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

KJV 1 Corinthians 1:27-29 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Samie
March 12th, 2016, 01:44 PM
Thanks AMR, for your response. I thought you would never discuss with me again.

In post #4 (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116948-Arminians-amp-Calvinists-Limit-God-s-Power-To-Save&p=4647377&viewfull=1#post4647377), I stated my simple reason why I do not teach nor believe in a limited atonement. Could you please directly address that post? Thank you in advance for directly addressing it, my brother.
I fear explanations explanatory of things explained:

https://www.monergism.com/thethresho...atonement.html (https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/limitedatonement.html)

AMRThanks again, AMR. But honestly, I prefer you directly addressing post#4 rather than go into a wild-goose-chase in the link you gave. But I honor your refusal to directly address it, if you so refuse.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 12th, 2016, 02:13 PM
Thank for stopping by with the usual opinion, GM. Noted.

AMR

No problem, any time AMR. The simple "True Gospel" is what I preach. You know, the kind that gets humanity saved in the sight of God. I don't give perspective True Believers tons of Presybeterian materials to peruse.

Ask Mr. Religion
March 12th, 2016, 02:23 PM
Thanks again, AMR. But honestly, I prefer you directly addressing post#4 rather than go into a wild-goose-chase in the link you gave. But I honor your refusal to directly address it, if you so refuse.
If honesty is at play here, then I honestly assume you are willing to dig a wee bit deeper to consider your position by reviewing the thoughts of those that have come before you.

Tolle lege (https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/limitedatonement.html).

You can do as you wish, as you are an oddity (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116860-An-Alternative-to-Arminianism-and-Calvinism).

AMR

Ask Mr. Religion
March 12th, 2016, 02:33 PM
No problem, any time AMR. The simple "True Gospel" is what I preach.

I get it, GM. Do you (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116948-Arminians-amp-Calvinists-Limit-God-s-Power-To-Save&p=4647858&highlight=#post4647858)?

AMR

Grosnick Marowbe
March 12th, 2016, 02:52 PM
I get it, GM. Do you (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116948-Arminians-amp-Calvinists-Limit-God-s-Power-To-Save&p=4647858&highlight=#post4647858)?

AMR

No problem AMR. I'm cool with it.

Samie
March 12th, 2016, 03:55 PM
Thanks AMR, for your response. I thought you would never discuss with me again.

In post #4 (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116948-Arminians-amp-Calvinists-Limit-God-s-Power-To-Save&p=4647377&viewfull=1#post4647377), I stated my simple reason why I do not teach nor believe in a limited atonement. Could you please directly address that post? Thank you in advance for directly addressing it, my brother.
I fear explanations explanatory of things explained:

https://www.monergism.com/thethresho...atonement.html (https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/limitedatonement.html)

AMR
Thanks again, AMR. But honestly, I prefer you directly addressing post#4 rather than go into a wild-goose-chase in the link you gave. But I honor your refusal to directly address it, if you so refuse.I looked up the link provided by AMR (https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/limitedatonement.html)and I found out that it did not discuss in it the verses I used in post #4: Mark 1:14, 15 and Luke 13:3, 5.

Thanks anyway to AMR; his directing me to that link helped me find out that the reason I have for not teaching nor believing in a limited atonement, as I discussed in post #4, is not yet discussed in that document AMR recommended as having explained what I requested him to explain.
I fear explanations explanatory of things explained:

https://www.monergism.com/thethresho...atonement.html (https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/limitedatonement.html)

AMRLooks like you have nothing to fear after all, AMR.

The document you recommended as having explained what I requested you to explain have no explanations whatsoever explanatory of what I wanted explained. All throughout the total 14,886 words in that document, there is no mention whatsoever nor had it referred to Mark 1:14, 15 and Luke 13:3, 5.

Samie
March 12th, 2016, 04:23 PM
Other than AMR, is there any Calvinist who wants to directly address post #4 (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116948-Arminians-amp-Calvinists-Limit-God-s-Power-To-Save&p=4647377&viewfull=1#post4647377)in this thread?

Samie
March 12th, 2016, 04:26 PM
As to the Arminians, they seem to have a hard time reconciling their position with what Jesus Himself said that apart from Him we can do NOTHING.

GM refuses to directly address the issue. I don't know his reason(s) why.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 12th, 2016, 04:35 PM
Calvin's history:

1) He was called "The Pope of Geneva."
2) He participated in the execution murders of several people who disagreed with his beliefs.
3) He had one man he hated, burned at the stake with green wood which guaranteed a slow torturous death.
4) He burned at the stake a number of "so-called" witches."
5) He was an evil, wretched human being.
6) He preached false doctrine.
7) His beliefs had a Gnostic background.

This is the kind of man the Calvinists follow.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 12th, 2016, 04:37 PM
If you try and tell a Calvinist something about their belief, their answer is; "You don't know anything about Calvinism." (Reformed theology.)

Grosnick Marowbe
March 12th, 2016, 05:23 PM
As to the OP, God will save anyone who hear's the True Gospel and places their faith in Christ as their Savior. Nothing can slow down that process.

Samie
March 12th, 2016, 05:33 PM
As to the OP, God will save anyone who hear's the True Gospel and places their faith in Christ as their Savior. Nothing can slow down that process.That's beside the point, I guess, GM.

The issue is - as discussed in post #3 (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116948-Arminians-amp-Calvinists-Limit-God-s-Power-To-Save&p=4647366&viewfull=1#post4647366) - whether spiritually alive first BEFORE hearing and believing, or as Arminians have it, hear and believe first to become spiritually alive.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 12th, 2016, 05:41 PM
That's beside the point, I guess, GM.

The issue is - as discussed in post #3 (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116948-Arminians-amp-Calvinists-Limit-God-s-Power-To-Save&p=4647366&viewfull=1#post4647366) - whether spiritually alive first BEFORE hearing and believing, or as Arminians have it, hear and believe first to become spiritually alive.

I already said that one must hear the True Gospel then, place their faith in Christ. Do you have reading comprehension problems?

Grosnick Marowbe
March 12th, 2016, 05:47 PM
Thank you for stopping by with the usual opinion, GM. Noted.

We have discussed this at length and you show no willingness to consider the fallacies you are adopting. Here is an all in one place summary once more for your careful consideration:

http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?3060-The-quot-Calvin-is-a-Murderer-quot-Meme

I regret having assumed you were a reasonable person and were willing to be more circumspect. It seems you have been disingenuous with me all along or are incapable of restraining your choleric nature.

AMR

The reason for your ire is, I have no interest in following John Calvin, Calvinism or Reformed Theology. None of those are reasonable to me. I believe the God of the Bible is different from the god you and your
ilk see. When I read, I see a Biblical God. Calvinists read and see Him differently. We cannot have a meeting of the minds because of this.

Samie
March 12th, 2016, 06:13 PM
I already said that one must hear the True Gospel then, place their faith in Christ.You seemed to have responded to a different issue. Again: "The issue is - as discussed in post #3 (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116948-Arminians-amp-Calvinists-Limit-God-s-Power-To-Save&p=4647366&viewfull=1#post4647366)- whether spiritually alive first BEFORE hearing and believing, or as Arminians have it, hear and believe first to become spiritually alive."

Do you have reading comprehension problems?None, I suppose. Is there really a need for your last statement, brother?

Ask Mr. Religion
March 12th, 2016, 11:24 PM
Calvin's history:

1) He was called "The Pope of Geneva."
2) He participated in the execution murders of several people who disagreed with his beliefs.
3) He had one man he hated, burned at the stake with green wood which guaranteed a slow torturous death.
4) He burned at the stake a number of "so-called" witches."
5) He was an evil, wretched human being.
6) He preached false doctrine.
7) His beliefs had a Gnostic background.

This is the kind of man the Calvinists follow.
We have discussed this at length and you show no willingness to consider the fallacies you are adopting. Here is an all in one place summary once more for your careful consideration:

(http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?3060-The-quot-Calvin-is-a-Murderer-quot-Meme)
http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?3060-The-quot-Calvin-is-a-Murderer-quot-Meme

AMR

Grosnick Marowbe
March 13th, 2016, 12:18 AM
We have discussed this at length and you show no willingness to consider the fallacies you are adopting. Here is an all in one place summary once more for your careful consideration:

(http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?3060-The-quot-Calvin-is-a-Murderer-quot-Meme)
http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?3060-The-quot-Calvin-is-a-Murderer-quot-Meme

AMR

You're not going to convince me that John Calvin was the "cream of the crop." I have searched out his history. Do you doubt that he was complicit in the execution of several people during his reign of terror? Do you doubt that he purposely had the executioners use green wood while burning one of his doubters? The green wood guaranteed a slow and Torturous death. Do you doubt that Calvin was complicit in having, "so called" witches burned at the stake? Do you doubt that he was called, "The Pope of Geneva?" Calvin was an evil and wretched dictator.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 13th, 2016, 12:41 AM
Sorry to say, I've placed AMR and Samie on my ignore list. It's useless to go around and around with these two. They cannot convince me to become a Calvinist and I cannot convince them to become a "Grace Gospel Believer." No sense in sitting around arguing about these things. I wish you both the best. GM...

Samie
March 13th, 2016, 01:45 AM
Sorry to say, I've placed AMR and Samie on my ignore list. It's useless to go around and around with these two. They cannot convince me to become a Calvinist and I cannot convince them to become a "Grace Gospel Believer." No sense in sitting around arguing about these things. I wish you both the best. GM...Thank you for the honor, GM. You placed me alongside a great and revered man of TOL.

Sadly, you erred in labeling me as a Calvinist, because I am not, as I have for so many times told you. Again, as I have posted in another thread (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116860-An-Alternative-to-Arminianism-and-Calvinism&p=4648255&viewfull=1#post4648255):"Calvinists don't believe in blotting out of names from the book of life. I do. Calvinists doubt the existence of the book of life. I don't. Calvinists don't preach free-will. I do. Calvinists believe in a limited atonement. I don't. Calvinists step hard on the accelerator down the floor when speaking about Total Depravity. I step hard on the accelerator down the floor when speaking about Total Spiritual Enlightenment."And still, for reasons unknown to me, you insist I am a Calvinist.

And I don't think you are sincere in labeling yourself as a "Grace Gospel Believer". It more seems you are not, brother, as gleaned from our limited discussions, where some of my questions and requests, you don't even care to extend the courtesy of answering, as a true grace-gospel-believer would have gladly done. Instead, you even bluntly told me in one post (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116948-Arminians-amp-Calvinists-Limit-God-s-Power-To-Save&p=4647507&viewfull=1#post4647507)you don't owe me an explanation.

How could one be a true "Grace Gospel Believer" when he is a staunch defender of the biblically indefensible Arminian doctrine of general but conditional atonement that unless people FIRST hear the gospel and believe in Christ, they cannot be in Christ and so are saved? How can this be "saved by grace" when unless and until man first puts into the basket his share of the deal, God cannot save him? Hadn't Christ EXPLICITLY said that apart from Him, man can do NOTHING?

But you don't seem to care responding to issues like this in our discussions, knowing fully well you can't find haven in Scriptures. And your only way to bail yourself out is feign impossibility of convincing me into becoming a "Grace Gospel Believer", and join you the side of the fence where I am already in but you are yet nowhere to be seen.

Ask Mr. Religion
March 13th, 2016, 03:31 PM
We have discussed this at length and you show no willingness to consider the fallacies you are adopting. Here is an all in one place summary once more for your careful consideration:

(http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?3060-The-quot-Calvin-is-a-Murderer-quot-Meme)
http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?3060-The-quot-Calvin-is-a-Murderer-quot-Meme

AMR


You're not going to convince me that John Calvin was the "cream of the crop." I have searched out his history. Do you doubt that he was complicit in the execution of several people during his reign of terror? Do you doubt that he purposely had the executioners use green wood while burning one of his doubters? The green wood guaranteed a slow and Torturous death. Do you doubt that Calvin was complicit in having, "so called" witches burned at the stake? Do you doubt that he was called, "The Pope of Geneva?" Calvin was an evil and wretched dictator. Grosnick Marowbe

I have given you plenty to research for yourself. If you refuses to review the material, which is unbiased and accurate, even critical of Calvin when appropriate, that is not my problem. I have been quite explicit in noting that Calvin, despite not being in a formal position to circumvent the magistrates of his day who actually were the responsible parties, could have used his pulpit for more calls for mercy. You are just stubbornly resistant to actually learning more. Such are most anti-Calvinists who prefer to not make actual arguments versus just the usual opinions.

AMR

Ask Mr. Religion
March 13th, 2016, 03:41 PM
Sorry to say, I've placed AMR and Samie on my ignore list. It's useless to go around and around with these two. They cannot convince me to become a Calvinist and I cannot convince them to become a "Grace Gospel Believer." No sense in sitting around arguing about these things. I wish you both the best. GM...

Each and every time without exception when you have proffered statements that are incorrect or asked questions, you have been met by me with substantial answers. You want to imply you can actually engage, but in every instance you have found a facile excuse to not do so, e.g., too many 'big words', too much content, too much effort required. Your acedia is plain for all to see, GM.

In your behavior is evidence of how unethical anti-Calvinists typically are when they attempt to critique Calvinism. The animus towards Calvinism of anti-Calvinists often disarms their critical judgment. Due to confirmation bias, they are suckers for any bad objection to Calvinism. The anti-Calvinists don't pause to consider if what they assert is an accurate representation of Calvinism. They don't stop to consider if the objection is even logical. Because anything anti-Calvinist is what they what to hear, they are predisposed to believe the worst about Calvinism, and vapidly nod their heads in agreement.

GM, when you are willing (or able) to actually engage with iron sharpening iron per Scripture, do not lull yourself into thinking no Calvinist is unwilling or unable to meet you in the hope that all will be edified. If you are not, then perhaps you should reconsider the usual offerings of questions and assertions, "Have you read the Bible?", "Do you have a testimony?", "Calvinists believe....". The reasonable person assumes you actually want to be answered giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are not just being rhetorical.

Placing me on ignore is probably a wise course of action. I tend to ignore those (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?79269-toldailytopic-What-does-it-take-to-survive-on-TOL-and-can-you-predict-those-who-wil/page6&p=2906680#post2906680) that have proven themselves to be just drive-by posters seeking attention anyway.

AMR

Crucible
March 13th, 2016, 03:52 PM
Calvinism is the only belief in which God is supremely sovereign and actually holds up in doctrine rather then in mere proclamation.

What I see with other theologies- a consistently opposed set of ideas against God's omnipotence with a splash of 'God is Almighty' on top of it all, as if a wood wall becomes stone by painting it gray.


On the matter of TULIP, it is the entirety of the Gospel. There's not one single point you won't see in the Scriptures.

This thread singles out 'Limited atonement', and ignores 'Unconditional election.
Likewise, those such as Robert Pate single out 'Perseverance of the Saints', and ignore 'Irresistible Grace'.

These arguments- and comparing the REAL reformists to those such as Arminius, is garbage. All the opposed argumentation is on base, stubborn attitude unwilling to change to proper reason.

Samie
March 13th, 2016, 07:39 PM
Calvinism is the only belief in which God is supremely sovereign and actually holds up in doctrine rather then in mere proclamation.

What I see with other theologies- a consistently opposed set of ideas against God's omnipotence with a splash of 'God is Almighty' on top of it all, as if a wood wall becomes stone by painting it gray.


On the matter of TULIP, it is the entirety of the Gospel. There's not one single point you won't see in the Scriptures.

This thread singles out 'Limited atonement', and ignores 'Unconditional election.
Likewise, those such as Robert Pate single out 'Perseverance of the Saints', and ignore 'Irresistible Grace'.

These arguments- and comparing the REAL reformists to those such as Arminius, is garbage. All the opposed argumentation is on base, stubborn attitude unwilling to change to proper reason. Disagree. You haven't even tried addressing this post (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116948-Arminians-amp-Calvinists-Limit-God-s-Power-To-Save&p=4647377&viewfull=1#post4647377). I'll engage you in a healthy discussion, if you are willing.