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WeberHome
March 9th, 2016, 12:31 PM
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I seriously doubt the average rank and file pew warmer even knows what grace is. I suspect that most are under the impression that grace is somehow a quantifiable substance like butter and gasoline; but in regards to God, grace is an abstract noun that expresses qualities apart from substance.

The New Testament Greek word for "grace" is charis (khar'-ece); which means: graciousness. Webster's defines *graciousness as: kind, courteous, inclined to good will, generous, charitable, merciful, altruistic, compassionate, thoughtful, cordial, affable, genial, sociable, cheerful, warm, sensitive, considerate, and tactful.

Cordial stresses warmth and heartiness

Affable implies easy approachability and readiness to respond pleasantly to conversation or requests or proposals

Genial stresses cheerfulness and even joviality

Sociable suggests a genuine liking for the companionship of others

Generous is characterized by a noble or forbearing spirit; viz: magnanimous, kindly, and liberal in giving

Charitable means full of love for, and goodwill toward, others; viz: benevolent, tolerant, and lenient.

Altruistic means unselfish regard for, or devotion to, the welfare of others; viz: a desire to be of service to others for no other reason than it just feels good to do so.

Tactful indicates a keen sense of what to do, or say, in order to maintain good relations with others in order to resolve and/or avoid unnecessary conflict.

Compassion defines a sympathetic awareness of others' distress, coupled with a desire to alleviate it.

The Old Testament Hebrew word for "grace" is chen (khane); and means the same as charis (e.g. Gen 6:8).

When you put all those lovely attributes together, you get a pretty good picture of the bright side of God's personality. There's a dark side too, but grace doesn't go there.

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Bradley D
March 9th, 2016, 11:07 PM
And "grace" is undeserved. "And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace" (Romans 11:6).

journey
March 10th, 2016, 12:19 AM
Ephesians 2:8-9 AMP For it is by grace [God's remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God; 9. not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation].

Undeserved and unearned merit or kind consideration is a good way of describing God's Grace and His free Gift of Salvation.

WeberHome
March 10th, 2016, 01:01 AM
and "grace" is undeserved

That's actually a pretty good description of courtesy; which can be defined as being nice to people not because of their worth; but simply because it is noble to do so.

It's difficult at times to perceive God as a person whose character is marked by courtesy; but I have no doubt that He is: Christ too.

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meshak
March 10th, 2016, 04:56 AM
Grace is that we all have hope of salvation if we trust in God's love.

God's Truth
March 10th, 2016, 05:19 AM
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I seriously doubt the average rank and file pew warmer even knows what grace is. I suspect that most are under the impression that grace is somehow a quantifiable substance like butter and gasoline; but in regards to God, grace is an abstract noun that expresses qualities apart from substance.

The New Testament Greek word for "grace" is charis (khar'-ece); which means: graciousness. Webster's defines *graciousness as: kind, courteous, inclined to good will, generous, charitable, merciful, altruistic, compassionate, thoughtful, cordial, affable, genial, sociable, cheerful, warm, sensitive, considerate, and tactful.

Cordial stresses warmth and heartiness

Affable implies easy approachability and readiness to respond pleasantly to conversation or requests or proposals

Genial stresses cheerfulness and even joviality

Sociable suggests a genuine liking for the companionship of others

Generous is characterized by a noble or forbearing spirit; viz: magnanimous, kindly, and liberal in giving

Charitable means full of love for, and goodwill toward, others; viz: benevolent, tolerant, and lenient.

Altruistic means unselfish regard for, or devotion to, the welfare of others; viz: a desire to be of service to others for no other reason than it just feels good to do so.

Tactful indicates a keen sense of what to do, or say, in order to maintain good relations with others in order to resolve and/or avoid unnecessary conflict.

Compassion defines a sympathetic awareness of others' distress, coupled with a desire to alleviate it.

The Old Testament Hebrew word for "grace" is chen (khane); and means the same as charis (e.g. Gen 6:8).

When you put all those lovely attributes together, you get a pretty good picture of the bright side of God's personality. There's a dark side too, but grace doesn't go there.

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Grace is that we do NOT have to clean ourselves just to worship God in a temple.

WeberHome
March 10th, 2016, 09:26 AM
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I picked up an interesting line from an exasperated father in the final episode of Downton Abbey that goes like this:

"As my son, I love you, but I have tried, and failed, to like you."

The father who spoke that line wasn't a difficult man. He was actually a very gracious man who had it up to here with his grown son's toxic personality,

That so reminds me of a passage in the book of John: here paraphrased a bit:

"For God so loved the world, that He offered His only begotten son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world should be rescued through him." (John 3:16-17)

Yes, God loves His human creations; enough to even sacrifice His only son's life and limb to protect them; but I honestly believe that He has tried, and failed, to like them. For example:

"Now the Lord observed the extent of the people's wickedness, and he saw that all their thoughts were consistently and totally evil. So the Lord was sorry he had ever made them. It broke his heart. And the Lord said: I will completely wipe out this human race that I have created. Yes, and I will destroy all the animals and birds, too. I am sorry I ever made them." (Gen 6:5-7)

Bottom line: God doesn't owe humanity anything. God's offering of His only son wasn't an obligation; it was a courtesy. Far from deserving kindness, humanity deserves the cold shoulder. But God, being the sensitive person that he is, willing to go the extra mile, still finds it in Himself to extend humanity an opportunity to turn itself around and give Him cause to like them instead of humanity, with its overall toxic personality, always making it impossible for Him to do so.

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WeberHome
March 10th, 2016, 09:54 AM
Grace is that we all have hope of salvation if we trust in God's love.

In too many Christian minds, it is truly believed that a sinner's salvation rests upon the grace of God; but in most minds that is nothing in the world but a mental spin to mask their true belief that it is by the grace of God that they now have a chance to earn their salvation, where before, they had no chance to earn it.

So when you strip away the spin, you're right back to the reality that the plans of salvation enjoying the widest acceptance are essentially merit systems based upon personal performance rather than solely upon the kindness and generosity of God's altruistic nature. Thus they rule out the principle of courtesy, and stick to the old rule of proving one's worthiness.

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brewmama
March 10th, 2016, 11:28 AM
Grace is the very energies of God (http://orthodoxwiki.org/God) himself. The Orthodox Church (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Orthodox_Church) believes that through the Trinitarian (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Holy_Trinity) ministry of the Holy Spirit (http://orthodoxwiki.org/Holy_Spirit) these energies are mediated to mankind. That is, how God acts in forgiving and spiritual healing. Grace is the working of God himself, not a created substance of any kind that can be treated like a commodity.

Your arrogant assignment and supposed awareness of other Christians' motives, thoughts and actions is noted.

JJ84
March 11th, 2016, 03:09 AM
I have always like the following:
God's
Riches
At
Christ
Expense

For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that ye through His proverty might be rich. II Corinthians 8:9

So that now I understand now I truely receive all good things from the Father thru the Son, Romans 8:31-34; James 1:17.

WeberHome
March 11th, 2016, 07:54 AM
God's
Riches
At
Christ
Expense

That's a cute acronym but doesn't really say anything useful. It talks about riches, but doesn't name any. What are we talking about here; money, real estate, stocks and bonds?

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iouae
March 12th, 2016, 05:02 AM
In too many Christian minds, it is truly believed that a sinner's salvation rests upon the grace of God; but in most minds that is nothing in the world but a mental spin to mask their true belief that it is by the grace of God that they now have a chance to earn their salvation, where before, they had no chance to earn it.

So when you strip away the spin, you're right back to the reality that the plans of salvation enjoying the widest acceptance are essentially merit systems based upon personal performance rather than solely upon the kindness and generosity of God's altruistic nature. Thus they rule out the principle of courtesy, and stick to the old rule of proving one's worthiness.

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What you say probably is true to some extent.

Let's suppose that all living things are here on earth due to God's grace, swimming, hopping, crawling or walking around enjoying life.

We, because we are Homo Sapiens sapiens (which is Latin for "really smart") are the only ones who realise God is saying "Do you enjoy life, and would you like some more?" The reason we are the only ones who know about this call to more, and eternal life, is because there are no waterproof Bibles, and because no fish can read. OK that's an attempt at humour.

The reason we respond is because God is only offering eternal life to humans (though my barking neighbour's dog may be preaching the Gospel in Dogie for all I speak Dogie).

Is saying "Yes God, please can I have what you are offering" a work or not? I am "performing" am I not, in deciding that I want what God offers?

Suppose I respond to God's invitation, the Bible then goes on to list rules (the famous "law" or list of "Thou shalt not's..."). The OT has at least 613 of them and the NT at least 1050 of these "do's and don'ts".

And most of us get it that Law and Grace are really opposites. Ideally I want the Law to apply to all others and Grace to apply to me.

After much pondering of law and grace, I figure that it all boils down to being a friend of God's. God is inviting His friends to an Eternal, invitation-only party. You may have been a bad boy, but if you love Jesus and He loves you, you are invited. You may have been a good boy and obeyed all the rules much better than the bad boy, but if God does not like you, and thinks you are a bit of a Pharisee, then you may arrive all dressed for the party, and be denied admittance. Grace means God can be as arbitrary as He likes. The best we can do is get to know Him and try to please Him, but no act EARNS us automatic entry to the Kingdom.

WeberHome
March 12th, 2016, 08:54 AM
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Grace is a lethal religion. It quite literally, in some mysterious way that I don't quite understand; put Christ's believing followers to death.

. Rom 6:3 . . Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

. Rom 6:6 . . Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him

. Gal 2:20 . . I am crucified with Christ

. Col 3:3 . . For you died when Christ died

The "old man" can be roughly defined as everything about people that's related to Adam; viz: their human life and their human nature.

One of my chronic fears as a Roman Catholic was that something fatal would happen to me in between confessions. Well; you can just imagine my relief at discovering that people punished on the cross with Christ are in no danger of double jeopardy; which Webster's defines as: putting someone on trial for an offense for which they have previously been put on trial under a valid charge viz: two adjudications for one offense.

In a nutshell, the principle of double jeopardy protects Christ's crucified followers from being put on trial for their lives all over again seeing as how that was done for them once and for all when Christ went to the cross.

. Heb 2:9 . . Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, that he, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

The Great White throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 is for the purpose of putting people on trial for their lives. Afterwards they will be executed by a mode of death akin to a foundry worker falling into a vat of molten iron.

If I appear at that event at all, it will be only as a spectator and/or a witness for the prosecution because I was put on trial for my life when Christ was put on the cross, and I lost my life when he lost his. I have no clue how this works; I only know that I'm supposed to reckon it true. (Rom 6:3-11)

Grace offers a version of Christianity that guarantees a Ten Commandments proof, God proof, sin proof, Devil proof, temptation proof, fool proof, human nature proof, human error proof, mortal sin proof, fail-safe rescue from the wrath of God (John 3:14-18, John 5:24). It just amazes me the number of people, even those warming pews in old-school Christian churches, who want nothing to do with it.

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iouae
March 12th, 2016, 02:16 PM
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Grace is a lethal religion. It quite literally, in some mysterious way that I don't quite understand; put Christ's believing followers to death.

†. Rom 6:3 . . Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

†. Rom 6:6 . . Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him

†. Gal 2:20 . . I am crucified with Christ

†. Col 3:3 . . For you died when Christ died

The "old man" can be roughly defined as everything about people that's related to Adam; viz: their human life and their human nature.

One of my chronic fears as a Roman Catholic was that something fatal would happen to me in between confessions. Well; you can just imagine my relief at discovering that people punished on the cross with Christ are in no danger of double jeopardy; which Webster's defines as: putting someone on trial for an offense for which they have previously been put on trial under a valid charge viz: two adjudications for one offense.

In a nutshell, the principle of double jeopardy protects Christ's crucified followers from being put on trial for their lives all over again seeing as how that was done for them once and for all when Christ went to the cross.

†. Heb 2:9 . . Jesus was made a little lower than the angels, that he, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

The Great White throne event depicted at Rev 20:11-15 is for the purpose of putting people on trial for their lives. Afterwards they will be executed by a mode of death akin to a foundry worker falling into a vat of molten iron.

If I appear at that event at all, it will be only as a spectator and/or a witness for the prosecution because I was put on trial for my life when Christ was put on the cross, and I lost my life when he lost his. I have no clue how this works; I only know that I'm supposed to reckon it true. (Rom 6:3-11)

Grace offers a version of Christianity that guarantees a Ten Commandments proof, God proof, sin proof, Devil proof, temptation proof, fool proof, human nature proof, human error proof, mortal sin proof, fail-safe rescue from the wrath of God (John 3:14-18, John 5:24). It just amazes me the number of people, even those warming pews in old-school Christian churches, who want nothing to do with it.

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I am struggling to see whether you like or hate grace WeberHome.

I like grace. Who does not?

God's Truth
March 13th, 2016, 02:14 AM
I am struggling to see whether you like or hate grace WeberHome.

I like grace. Who does not?

You cannot enter that grace unless you do something.

iouae
March 13th, 2016, 02:17 AM
You cannot enter that grace unless you do something.

I have already done that something, and daily receive that grace :)

God's Truth
March 13th, 2016, 02:19 AM
I have already done that something, and daily receive that grace :)

You couldn't have even of enter that grace if you did not obey.

iouae
March 13th, 2016, 02:58 AM
You couldn't have even of enter that grace if you did not obey.

You speak like we have been lifelong friends and you know something about me.

I have known you for 24 hours, so I would not presume to judge your state of grace or obedience :)

God's Truth
March 13th, 2016, 03:07 AM
You speak like we have been lifelong friends and you know something about me.

I have known you for 24 hours, so I would not presume to judge your state of grace or obedience :)

I am not speaking about you exclusively. I am speaking about the Word of God. Jesus is the one who says we cannot enter unless we obey him.

iouae
March 13th, 2016, 03:23 AM
I am not speaking about you exclusively. I am speaking about the Word of God. Jesus is the one who says we cannot enter unless we obey him.

Who says I don't obey Him?

God's Truth
March 13th, 2016, 03:33 AM
Who says I don't obey Him?

Are you preaching against obeying to be saved or not preaching that? Are you going against me for preaching it or are you not going against me for preaching it?

Do you know why you read my speaking of how we must obey to be saved but you do not just agree with me, but instead you make it all about you personally and not about God's Word?

iouae
March 13th, 2016, 03:35 AM
Are you preaching against obeying to be saved or not preaching that? Are you going against me for preaching it or or you not going against me for preaching it?

Do you know why you read my speaking of how we must obey to be saved but you do not just agree with me, but instead you make it all about you personally and not about God's Word?

If you are pro-obedience, then I am pro-you. The rest of what you said was like speaking in tongues without me being able to interpret it.

God's Truth
March 13th, 2016, 03:40 AM
If you are pro-obedience, then I am pro-you.

That is so good to hear. You are rare here then. Why didn't you just agree sooner?




The rest of what you said was like speaking in tongues without me being able to interpret it.

I agree, it takes some extra thought. If you would have given it extra thought, I think it would have came to you.

iouae
March 13th, 2016, 03:58 AM
That is so good to hear. You are rare here then. Why didn't you just agree sooner?



I agree, it takes some extra thought. If you would have given it extra thought, I think it would have came to you.

Glad we found common ground :)