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keypurr
March 8th, 2016, 11:25 PM
2Co_1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;


Eph_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:


1Pe_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Do you see that Jesus Christ has a God? How many God's are there?

Grosnick Marowbe
March 9th, 2016, 12:08 AM
2Co_1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;


Eph_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:


1Pe_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Do you see that Jesus Christ has a God? How many God's are there?

This is how it is KP:

God the Father
God the Son
God the Holy Spirit

Yet, these three are ONE and equal to one another. Your "theories" notwithstanding.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 9th, 2016, 12:11 AM
2Co_1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;


Eph_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:


1Pe_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Do you see that Jesus Christ has a God? How many God's are there?

There is one God, made up of three personages.

Danoh
March 9th, 2016, 12:48 AM
2Co_1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;


Eph_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:


1Pe_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Do you see that Jesus Christ has a God? How many God's are there?

Consider that it just might be that you are confused. Why? Because you obviously started out that way BEFORE you sought out these passages in hopes of proving your error sound through them.

This is crystal clear obvious to me that that is what you did.

Because the issue those passages are seeking to bring out is the connection between "the only begotten" in connection with the resurrection of Christ, and "the begotten of" that those who have believed that God raised Him from the dead, become a part of.

Put your foolishness away and study out THROUGHOUT Scripture (Genesis thru Revelation) what "begotten" actually refers to.

Only then should you turn to your above cited passages to attempt to see what the actual connection is between the Father and the word "begotten."

Only then will you even have a hope of seeing what passages like those are even talking about.

jamie
March 9th, 2016, 09:15 AM
Do you see that Jesus Christ has a God? How many God's are there?


Just as there is one human species there is one God species.

Just because a person's father is human does not mean that person is not human.

Physical reproduction is of like kind and spiritual reproduction is of like kind.

We are joint heirs with Christ of all that exists.


You have put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. (Hebrews 2:8)

Bradley D
March 9th, 2016, 11:34 PM
Jesus has all the divine attributes of His Father.

"I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

The Greek word for "one" heis can also be used for agreement, alike, and common.

God's Truth
March 10th, 2016, 05:24 AM
2Co_1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;


Eph_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:


1Pe_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Do you see that Jesus Christ has a God? How many God's are there?

Jesus has a God because Jesus is God the Father come as a MAN.

keypurr
March 10th, 2016, 11:46 PM
There is one God, made up of three personages.

Nope, the verses do not say that. They say that Jesus has a God.
How many Gods do you have?

Believe in the word, not tradition.

keypurr
March 10th, 2016, 11:53 PM
Consider that it just might be that you are confused. Why? Because you obviously started out that way BEFORE you sought out these passages in hopes of proving your error sound through them.

This is crystal clear obvious to me that that is what you did.

Because the issue those passages are seeking to bring out is the connection between "the only begotten" in connection with the resurrection of Christ, and "the begotten of" that those who have believed that God raised Him from the dead, become a part of.

Put your foolishness away and study out THROUGHOUT Scripture (Genesis thru Revelation) what "begotten" actually refers to.

Only then should you turn to your above cited passages to attempt to see what the actual connection is between the Father and the word "begotten."

Only then will you even have a hope of seeing what passages like those are even talking about.

Stop trying to analize me, your not equipped to do so.

Just tell me what the verses mean to you.

keypurr
March 10th, 2016, 11:58 PM
Just as there is one human species there is one God species.

Just because a person's father is human does not mean that person is not human.

Physical reproduction is of like kind and spiritual reproduction is of like kind.

We are joint heirs with Christ of all that exists.


You have put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. (Hebrews 2:8)

That is not what the verse show. Jesus has a God, there is only one God.
So that proves that Jesus is not God, he is the Christ of God.

keypurr
March 11th, 2016, 12:00 AM
Jesus has all the divine attributes of His Father.

"I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).

The Greek word for "one" heis can also be used for agreement, alike, and common.

We all can be one with the Father. But are we God also?

Grosnick Marowbe
March 11th, 2016, 12:03 AM
We all can be one with the Father. But are we God also?

Nobodies trying to stop you from believing your own theories. You have a right to be a heretic.

keypurr
March 11th, 2016, 12:15 AM
Jesus has a God because Jesus is God the Father come as a MAN.

You don't think, do you?

Jesus is not God the Father.


Read John 17.

Mr. 5020
March 11th, 2016, 12:16 AM
keypurr: "Here are some random proof texts that disprove the trinity."

several others: "Here's a simple explanation that shows you may be misreading those proof texts."

keypurr: "You all are stupid and dumb and stupidly dumb."

keypurr
March 11th, 2016, 12:19 AM
Nobodies trying to stop you from believing your own theories. You have a right to be a heretic.

GM, stick with the verses in question, what do they tell you?

Foxfire
March 11th, 2016, 02:30 AM
We all can be one with the Father. But are we God also?

Scripture can't be broken.

JJ84
March 11th, 2016, 02:35 AM
16) Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there Am I: and now the Lord GOD, and His Spirit, hath sent Me.
17) Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I Am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth by the way that thou shouldest go.
Isaiah 48:16-17

For some weird reason I believe this is the Word (John 1:1-14) speaking so not only John but Jesus Himself state that Jesus is One of Three Members of the Godhead, Colossians 2:9. A good human example of three making one is the US federal goverment we have 3 branches yet 1 government that is each branch is the government but not an individual government unto themselves, many believe the founding fathers of the US took the example of Trinity from the Bible, Isaiah 33:22.

jamie
March 11th, 2016, 09:06 AM
That is not what the verse show. Jesus has a God, there is only one God.
So that proves that Jesus is not God, he is the Christ of God.


Yes, Jesus has a God. His God is his Father and our Father, the Most High God.

We are sons of the Most High just as Jesus is his Son.

Why do you believe the Most High is not capable of reproduction?

Do you serve an impotent god rather than the real God?

You have no concept of God's kingdom, do you?

God's Truth
March 11th, 2016, 09:14 AM
You don't think, do you?

Jesus is not God the Father.


Read John 17.

Jesus is God the Father with a body.

God the Father is the WORD, and the Word became flesh.

jamie
March 11th, 2016, 09:32 AM
Jesus is God the Father with a body.


Not according to scripture. Paul explains that the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

You have it out of order.

God's Truth
March 11th, 2016, 01:47 PM
Not according to scripture. Paul explains that the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

You have it out of order.

We wouldn't be alive if we did not firstly have a spirit.

It sounds to me that you are involved in a denomination that does not believe in the life of the spirit after the death of the body.

Here is the one scripture that should stop the Jehovah Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Messianic Jews, Christadelphians, and any religion who say people do not go to heaven.

Matthew 23:13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut off the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

There are other false doctrines in those religions, but that one scripture should be enough to stop any further involvement.

jamie
March 11th, 2016, 03:19 PM
Here is the one scripture that should stop the Jehovah Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Messianic Jews, Christadelphians, and any religion who say people do not go to heaven.

Matthew 23:13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut off the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

There are other false doctrines in those religions, but that one scripture should be enough to stop any further involvement.


:rotfl: How funny.

Bright Raven
March 11th, 2016, 07:25 PM
Jesus has a God because Jesus is God the Father come as a MAN. Wrong!
John 14:23 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

The Father and Jesus are two different personalities.

keypurr
March 11th, 2016, 10:41 PM
keypurr: "Here are some random proof texts that disprove the trinity."

several others: "Here's a simple explanation that shows you may be misreading those proof texts."

keypurr: "You all are stupid and dumb and stupidly dumb."

I think that a lot of fine folks live by tradition, that's a problem. They will never see the mistakes our forefathers made. After 70 years of study I feel quite confident that my faith is correct.

keypurr
March 11th, 2016, 10:46 PM
16) Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there Am I: and now the Lord GOD, and His Spirit, hath sent Me.
17) Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I Am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth by the way that thou shouldest go.
Isaiah 48:16-17

For some weird reason I believe this is the Word (John 1:1-14) speaking so not only John but Jesus Himself state that Jesus is One of Three Members of the Godhead, Colossians 2:9. A good human example of three making one is the US federal goverment we have 3 branches yet 1 government that is each branch is the government but not an individual government unto themselves, many believe the founding fathers of the US took the example of Trinity from the Bible, Isaiah 33:22.

Welcome to TOL.

John 1 is more about the LOGOS that was IN Jesus than it was about about the MAN Jesus. I see the true son of God as a spirit being, the express image of the Father.

Bradley D
March 11th, 2016, 10:53 PM
I believe Jesus was fully divine and fully man.

"…who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped" (Philippians 2:7).

God the Father is God to me. Jesus His Son is also divine. Some call Jesus along with the Holy Spirit God's also. I would question that in that it seems to go against the Judea/Christian belief in one God. So as for now it is to me one of those mysteries that I may not understand until I pass on.

jamie
March 11th, 2016, 11:01 PM
I see the true son of God as a spirit being...


Are you saying that Christ, the true son of God as a spirit being, did not die?

keypurr
March 11th, 2016, 11:07 PM
I believe Jesus was fully divine and fully man.

"…who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped" (Philippians 2:7).

God the Father is God to me. Jesus His Son is also divine. Some call Jesus along with the Holy Spirit God's also. I would question that in that it seems to go against the Judea/Christian belief in one God. So as for now it is to me one of those mysteries that I may not understand until I pass on.

How do we define the word "divine"? I see it as Godlike, if you think the same we agree. But that in itself does not make Jesus God.

keypurr
March 11th, 2016, 11:18 PM
Are you saying that Christ, the true son of God as a spirit being, did not die?

I see the spirit son becoming flesh and died on the cross as flesh.

The express image is a spirit. The true son was SENT, Jusus was Born.

jamie
March 12th, 2016, 09:01 AM
The express image is a spirit.


And when Jesus comes we will be just like him, an express image of our Father.

Our mother produces a physical image of the Father and our Brother produces a spiritual image of our Father.

God's Truth
March 12th, 2016, 12:48 PM
Wrong!
John 14:23 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

The Father and Jesus are two different personalities.

Besides the part about being flesh---tell me how the Father and Son are different.

God's Truth
March 12th, 2016, 12:50 PM
Welcome to TOL.

John 1 is more about the LOGOS that was IN Jesus than it was about about the MAN Jesus. I see the true son of God as a spirit being, the express image of the Father.

Jesus says the flesh counts for NOTHING. Not only that, the Bible says there is ONLY ONE SPIRIT.

You make different Spirits. You make a God the Father Spirit and another Spirit called the Son Spirit.

patrick jane
March 12th, 2016, 12:52 PM
Besides the part about being flesh---tell me how the Father and Son are different.
The Lord Jesus Christ can do anything the Father can do :noway:

God's Truth
March 12th, 2016, 12:55 PM
I believe Jesus was fully divine and fully man.

"…who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped" (Philippians 2:7).


This is a good scripture showing that Jesus is God the Father with a body, because the scripture says Jesus was in the FORM of God. What is God the Father's form? God the Father's form is Spirit.

God's Truth
March 12th, 2016, 01:00 PM
The Lord Jesus Christ can do anything the Father can do :noway:

That is exactly right. There is no difference except for the physical body part; which shows us that God the Father came in the flesh.

Bright Raven
March 12th, 2016, 01:55 PM
Besides the part about being flesh---tell me how the Father and Son are different.

You don't understand English? The verse is very explicit in showing that the Father and the Son are different personalities. Read it again.

meshak
March 12th, 2016, 02:10 PM
The Lord Jesus Christ can do anything the Father can do :noway:

Jesus' power comes from His Father. He says He cannot do anything on His own. Do you know that PJ?

patrick jane
March 12th, 2016, 02:17 PM
Jesus' power comes from His Father. He says He cannot do anything on His own. Do you know that PJ?
I knew that because it is written. Did you know I'm right shak ?

patrick jane
March 12th, 2016, 02:22 PM
Colossians 1:19 KJV -

God's Truth
March 12th, 2016, 02:29 PM
You don't understand English? The verse is very explicit in showing that the Father and the Son are different personalities. Read it again.

Tell me how they are different. In what ways are they different?

Jesus says he ONLY SAYS what the FATHER says.

Jesus says he only DOES what the Father does.

So guess what? You will never be able to think of any differences, no matter how hard you try.

God's Truth
March 12th, 2016, 02:32 PM
Not only does Jesus ONLY say what the Father says, and only does what the Father does---He looks like the Father, and when you see Jesus, YOU SEE the FATHER.

God's Truth
March 12th, 2016, 02:34 PM
Jesus' power comes from His Father. He says He cannot do anything on His own. Do you know that PJ?

Jesus cannot do anything on his own as a Man, because he is God the Father in the flesh comes as a Son.

God's Truth
March 12th, 2016, 02:35 PM
Jesus' Spirit IS the Spirit of God the Father.

jamie
March 12th, 2016, 02:47 PM
Jesus cannot do anything on his own as a Man, because he is God the Father in the flesh comes as a Son.


Why do you not believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus?

meshak
March 12th, 2016, 02:50 PM
I knew that because it is written. Did you know I'm right shak ?


do you believe Jesus is equal to His Father?

God's Truth
March 12th, 2016, 03:01 PM
Why do you not believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus?

You are saying I do not believe it because you have no other way to defend your false beliefs than with false accusations.

We are NOT just flesh. We are flesh and spirit.

I have scriptures which prove that.

The scriptures tell us that Jesus died in the flesh but lived on in the Spirit, lived on in the Spirit as all people do who die; except, not everyone has the Spirit of God, but Jesus' Spirit IS the Spirit of God.

God's Truth
March 12th, 2016, 03:03 PM
Our bodies when they die cannot raise ourselves with our spirits, but if we have the Spirit of God in us, then we will not go to Hell, we will be in heaven and stay there, even after the death of our bodies, because WE ARE NOW RAISED UP WITH HIM and SEATED with Jesus in heaven.

jamie
March 12th, 2016, 03:32 PM
The scriptures tell us that Jesus died in the flesh but lived on in the Spirit, lived on in the Spirit as all people do who die; except, not everyone has the Spirit of God, but Jesus' Spirit IS the Spirit of God.



But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. (Romans 8:11)

Jesus was raised from the dead by his Father.

jamie
March 12th, 2016, 03:34 PM
lived on in the Spirit as all people do who die...


"You shall not surely die." (Satan)

Bright Raven
March 12th, 2016, 04:05 PM
Tell me how they are different. In what ways are they different?

Jesus says he ONLY SAYS what the FATHER says.

Jesus says he only DOES what the Father does.

So guess what? You will never be able to think of any differences, no matter how hard you try.

Why does He call Him, My Father if He is the same person? He says I go to my Father and your Father. Too many discrepancies God's Truth. Try again.

God's Truth
March 12th, 2016, 06:43 PM
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. (Romans 8:11)

Jesus was raised from the dead by his Father.

Jesus and the Father are One and the same.

God raised Jesus from the dead.

Acts 2:32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact.

Rom. 10:9, 1 Pet. 1:21


The Father raised him.

Gal. 1:1; Eph. 1:17,20


Jesus raised himself.

John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

John 2:19 Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

Jesus and God are the same. That is why some scripture says God raised Jesus, and other scriptures say Jesus raised himself


The Holy Spirit raised Jesus.


Romans 8:11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,

(Jesus was made alive by the Spirit, because the Holy Spirit is his Spirit.)


Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
1 Peter 3:18 Because The Messiah also died once for the sake of our sins, The Righteous One in the place of sinners, to bring you to God, and he died in body and lived in his Spirit.

God's Truth
March 12th, 2016, 06:46 PM
"You shall not surely die." (Satan)

That is an ignorant excuse for your lack of understanding, for you know that we all die in the flesh.

God's Truth
March 12th, 2016, 06:56 PM
Why does He call Him, My Father if He is the same person?

Because he came in the flesh as a Son.




He says I go to my Father and your Father. Too many discrepancies God's Truth. Try again.

God really came as a Man that is why the Father was Greater.

There are three.

Father God, Father Son, Father Holy Spirit.

jamie
March 12th, 2016, 08:38 PM
That is an ignorant excuse for your lack of understanding, for you know that we all die in the flesh.


And we all know that dead men don't talk nor do they raise themselves from the dead.

The scriptural definition of death is the separation of body and spirit.

God's Truth
March 12th, 2016, 08:57 PM
And we all know that dead men don't talk nor do they raise themselves from the dead.
Dead bodies do not talk, but men who have died still talk.

Hebrews 11:4 And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.


The scriptural definition of death is the separation of body and spirit.

That is right. Death is when the body dies and the spirit goes on to live with Jesus or in prison/Hell.

Bright Raven
March 12th, 2016, 09:07 PM
Because he came in the flesh as a Son.



God really came as a Man that is why the Father was Greater.

There are three.

Father God, Father Son, Father Holy Spirit.
Yes there are three yet you consistently try to call the three persons one. :Poly:

jamie
March 12th, 2016, 11:15 PM
Dead bodies do not talk, but men who have died still talk.

Hebrews 11:4 And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.


Abel only speaks figuratively at this time.

jamie
March 12th, 2016, 11:19 PM
That is right. Death is when the body dies and the spirit goes on to live with Jesus or in prison/Hell.


The brain is part of the body and decays. The spirit returns to God who gave it.

There is no consciousness without a brain.

God's Truth
March 12th, 2016, 11:42 PM
Yes there are three yet you consistently try to call the three persons one. :Poly:

Deuteronomy 4:35
You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other.
Deuteronomy 4:39
Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the LORD is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other.

Deuteronomy 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.

Malachi 2:10
Do we not all have one Father? Did not one God create us? Why do we profane the covenant of our ancestors by being unfaithful to one another?

God's Truth
March 12th, 2016, 11:51 PM
Abel only speaks figuratively at this time.

Mere denial is no defense.

Jesus actually demonstrated to Peter, James, and John that the saints of the Old Covenant are alive when he spoke with Moses and Elijah on the mountain of transfiguration. Read about the transfiguration here:

Mark 9:2-6

The Transfiguration

2After six days Jesus took Peter, James and John with him and led them up a high mountain, where they were all alone. There he was transfigured before them. 3His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them. 4And there appeared before them Elijah and Moses, who were talking with Jesus.

God's Truth
March 12th, 2016, 11:53 PM
The brain is part of the body and decays. The spirit returns to God who gave it.

There is no consciousness without a brain.

The brain has no consciousness without the spirit, for without the spirit the body is dead.

That is what the scripture says.

James 2:26 ...the body without the spirit is dead

Bradley D
March 13th, 2016, 12:37 AM
I like the Greek definition:

2304 theíos (an adjective, derived from 2316 /theós, "God") – divine, manifesting the characteristics of God's nature.

However, I believe Jesus was more than the above definition. Jesus had the nature of God within Him. This came about when the Holy Spirit came upon Mary resulting in the virgin birth.

jamie
March 13th, 2016, 09:35 AM
Jesus actually demonstrated to Peter, James, and John that the saints of the Old Covenant are alive when he spoke with Moses and Elijah on the mountain of transfiguration. Read about the transfiguration here:


And don't forget to read about the transfiguration here.


Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.” (Matthew 17:9)

It was a vision.

God's Truth
March 13th, 2016, 12:35 PM
And don't forget to read about the transfiguration here.


Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is risen from the dead.” (Matthew 17:9)

It was a vision.

Vision does not mean mirage.

jamie
March 13th, 2016, 01:14 PM
Vision does not mean mirage.


:duh: You are so observant and obviously skilled in language. Are you an English teacher?

God's Truth
March 13th, 2016, 04:24 PM
:duh: You are so observant and obviously skilled in language. Are you an English teacher?

Why don't you explain then how it was not really Elijah and Moses.

Totton Linnet
March 13th, 2016, 04:30 PM
It is so simple

Whatever the Father is the Son must be also

Lazy afternoon
March 13th, 2016, 07:06 PM
It is so simple

Whatever the Father is the Son must be also

The Father is not a man,

Jesus is a man.

LA

Lazy afternoon
March 13th, 2016, 07:07 PM
Why don't you explain then how it was not really Elijah and Moses.

Jesus was speaking to Moses and Elijah.

LA

jamie
March 13th, 2016, 07:20 PM
Why don't you explain then how it was not really Elijah and Moses.


A vision takes place in the mind, a mirage is an optical illusion. You're right, they are not the same.

God's Truth
March 13th, 2016, 09:23 PM
A vision takes place in the mind, a mirage is an optical illusion. You're right, they are not the same.

Go ahead and explain it then.

God's Truth
March 13th, 2016, 09:25 PM
Jesus was speaking to Moses and Elijah.

LA

I know Jesus was speaking to Moses and Elijah, but Jamie says it was not really them that it was just a vision, but not reality.

jamie
March 13th, 2016, 09:41 PM
I know Jesus was speaking to Moses and Elijah, but Jamie says it was not really them that it was just a vision, but not reality.


I said that because it is recorded that way in Matthew 17:9.

God's Truth
March 14th, 2016, 01:50 AM
I said that because it is recorded that way in Matthew 17:9.

As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, "Don't tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead."

As they were descending the mountain, Jesus laid a command upon them. "Tell no one," He said, "of the sight you have seen till the Son of Man has risen from among the dead."

As they were coming down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, "Don't tell anyone what you saw, until the Son of Man has risen from the dead."


Even if you did not want to go by these translations which do not say 'vision', you still have not proven that what they saw being only in their mind.

God's Truth
March 14th, 2016, 01:56 AM
Matthew 17:2And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. 3And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.

Jamie, did you read that? Jesus was transformed BEFORE THEM. How do you ever get it was in their own mind?

Totton Linnet
March 14th, 2016, 04:26 AM
The Father is not a man,

Jesus is a man.

LA

But He is God, He was God when He was in the pillar of cloud, He was God when He was in the pillar of fire, He was God when He dwelt in the holy of holies....


...He was God when He dwelt in the Lord Jesus Christ.

jamie
March 14th, 2016, 09:00 AM
Even if you did not want to go by these translations which do not say 'vision', you still have not proven that what they saw being only in their mind.


Why did Moses and Elijah disappear?


But Jesus came and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.”
When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus. (Matthew 17:7-8 NIV)

God's Truth
March 14th, 2016, 09:05 AM
Why did Moses and Elijah disappear?


But Jesus came and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.”
When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus. (Matthew 17:7-8 NIV)

...because they are spirits.

God's Truth
March 14th, 2016, 09:06 AM
A person would have to deny many scriptures to believe we do not have spirits that live on after the death of our bodies.

jamie
March 14th, 2016, 09:18 AM
A person would have to deny many scriptures to believe we do not have spirits that live on after the death of our bodies.


The penalty for sin is spiritual death, not physical death. Anyone can die physically but that accomplishes nothing.

Jesus said, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” which is translated, 'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me'?"

If Jesus did not die spiritually then God did not forsake him if he still lived.

God's Truth
March 14th, 2016, 09:30 AM
The penalty for sin is spiritual death, not physical death. Anyone can die physically but that accomplishes nothing.

Jesus said, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?” which is translated, 'My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me'?"

If Jesus did not die spiritually then God did not forsake him if he still lived.

That is evil. Jesus never died Spiritually.

Jesus was fulfilling scripture when he said that.

It is merely about dying in the flesh, not in the Spirit.

God's Truth
March 14th, 2016, 09:31 AM
When you are suffering in the flesh, does that mean God has forsaken you? No.

jamie
March 14th, 2016, 04:14 PM
That is evil. Jesus never died Spiritually.


Was the law in Paul's day spiritual?

Bright Raven
March 14th, 2016, 06:37 PM
Was the law in Paul's day spiritual?

Will you ever die spiritually?

jamie
March 14th, 2016, 07:45 PM
Will you ever die spiritually?


I don't have to, Jesus did it for me.

Had his sacrifice not been flawless he would not have been resurrected. Jesus not only laid his life on the line, he laid his eternity on the line.

That is courage unequaled by anyone.

Lazy afternoon
March 14th, 2016, 08:05 PM
A person would have to deny many scriptures to believe we do not have spirits that live on after the death of our bodies.

Jesus did not live gain until His resurrection from the dead.

Jesus returns to raise His saints from the dead.

When one is dead, they are not alive.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

LA

Lazy afternoon
March 14th, 2016, 08:07 PM
...because they are spirits.

No.

The record shows Moses and Elijah were alive in their bodies.

LA

Lazy afternoon
March 14th, 2016, 08:11 PM
But He is God, He was God when He was in the pillar of cloud, He was God when He was in the pillar of fire, He was God when He dwelt in the holy of holies....


...He was God when He dwelt in the Lord Jesus Christ.

God came down from Heaven to dwell in Jesus after His baptism by John.

That was the purpose of God raising up a man He could dwell in.(by the Holy Spirit)

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.



LA

keypurr
March 14th, 2016, 09:49 PM
And when Jesus comes we will be just like him, an express image of our Father.

Our mother produces a physical image of the Father and our Brother produces a spiritual image of our Father.

We will never be the EXPRESS image of God, but we will be in his image. Christ is the ONLY express image. He only was given the fullness of the Father.

keypurr
March 14th, 2016, 09:55 PM
But He is God, He was God when He was in the pillar of cloud, He was God when He was in the pillar of fire, He was God when He dwelt in the holy of holies....


...He was God when He dwelt in the Lord Jesus Christ.

I disagree Totton, Jesus was a man who had the express image of God IN him. Jesus was anointed with a FORM of God. God is a spirit so is his true son. Jesus is the body provided for this spirit. Heb 10:5

keypurr
March 14th, 2016, 09:59 PM
It is so simple

Whatever the Father is the Son must be also

WHY?

Is the son of the President the President?

glorydaz
March 14th, 2016, 10:23 PM
WHY?

Is the son of the President the President?

You understand the difference between God and the President, don't you? In order for God to come and dwell among us, He had to do things differently than you might be able to imagine.

God's Truth
March 14th, 2016, 11:13 PM
Was the law in Paul's day spiritual?

The law is spiritual.

God's Truth
March 14th, 2016, 11:22 PM
Jesus did not live gain until His resurrection from the dead.

After Jesus was crucified, he preached to those who were dead, he preached to the spirits in prison, the spirits of those who had died and disobeyed long ago (see 1 Peter 3:18-19). Those people who disobeyed and died before learning of Jesus...Jesus preached the gospel to them, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit (1 Peter 4:5-6). For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring us to God, even those who lived and died before Jesus.




Jesus returns to raise His saints from the dead.

When one is dead, they are not alive.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

LA

Those scriptures are about a physical resurrection.

God's Truth
March 14th, 2016, 11:46 PM
God came down from Heaven to dwell in Jesus after His baptism by John.

That was the purpose of God raising up a man He could dwell in.(by the Holy Spirit)

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.



LA

Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh. He was found in appearance as a man. Jesus was made like a man.


Philippians 2:7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

Philippians 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death-- even death on a cross!

2 Corinthians 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.

Hebrews 2:17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people

Romans 1:3 regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David,

Romans 8:3
For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,

Lazy afternoon
March 15th, 2016, 12:35 AM
After Jesus was crucified, he preached to those who were dead, he preached to the spirits in prison, the spirits of those who had died and disobeyed long ago (see 1 Peter 3:18-19). Those people who disobeyed and died before learning of Jesus...Jesus preached the gospel to them, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit (1 Peter 4:5-6). For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring us to God, even those who lived and died before Jesus.

Jesus was not even born in the time of Noah.

Christ spoke through Noah, a preacher of righteousness.




Those scriptures are about a physical resurrection.

The whole man died that you and I may be wholly in His resurrection likeness.

Otherwise your human spirit is expected to fit a resurrected glorious body.

The human spirit must also die at death or one is not dead, thus denying that Christ really died, which you do.

God's Truth
March 15th, 2016, 12:55 AM
Jesus was not even born in the time of Noah.

hahahahaha Who said Jesus was born in the time of Noah?




Christ spoke through Noah, a preacher of righteousness.

Where did you get that from? Show the exact scripture. lol





The whole man died that you and I may be wholly in His resurrection likeness.

Otherwise your human spirit is expected to fit a resurrected glorious body.

The human spirit must also die at death or one is not dead, thus denying that Christ really died, which you do.

lol The spirit does not die.

jamie
March 15th, 2016, 08:31 AM
The law is spiritual.


Therefore violation of the law applicable to us requires spiritual death, which is the second death.

Jesus died spiritually so that we don't have to.

jamie
March 15th, 2016, 08:36 AM
WHY?

Is the son of the President the President?


Is the president a human? If so, the odds are good that his son will be human.

Why skew scripture?

God's Truth
March 15th, 2016, 09:43 AM
Therefore violation of the law applicable to us requires spiritual death, which is the second death.

Jesus died spiritually so that we don't have to.

Jesus did not die Spiritually. There is no such thing in the written Word of God.

jamie
March 15th, 2016, 10:09 AM
Jesus did not die Spiritually. There is no such thing in the written Word of God.



...but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die die. (Genesis 2:17)

The die die means to die once and then to die again, a reference to the second death.

The first death is physical, the second death is spiritual.

Jesus said, "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna."

God's Truth
March 15th, 2016, 11:15 AM
...but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die die. (Genesis 2:17)

That is not a literal death. It is about knowing what evil is.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."


The die die means to die once and then to die again, a reference to the second death.

The first death is physical, the second death is spiritual.

Jesus said, "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna."

That scripture proves our spirits do not die at the death of our physical body.

As for God destroying our spirit in gehenna, that does not mean non existent death.

Drugs and alcohol can 'destroy' a person's life, but that does not mean they had a literal death.

keypurr
March 17th, 2016, 09:44 PM
You understand the difference between God and the President, don't you? In order for God to come and dwell among us, He had to do things differently than you might be able to imagine.

Do you understand that God is a title not a name?

God's name is not God, is YHWH

steko
March 17th, 2016, 10:01 PM
WHY?

Is the son of the President the President?

No, but they're both the same essence/nature......human.

keypurr
March 17th, 2016, 10:11 PM
Is the president a human? If so, the odds are good that his son will be human.

Why skew scripture?

True, but the son would not be the President.

steko
March 17th, 2016, 10:18 PM
True, but the son would not be the President.

And the Son is not the Father, but they share the same essence/nature/substance.

keypurr
March 17th, 2016, 10:31 PM
And the Son is not the Father, but they share the same essence/nature/substance.

Yep, one is the IMAGE OF THE OTHER. So who came first?

I believe the FATHER. He is the only true God.

steko
March 17th, 2016, 10:41 PM
Yep, one is the IMAGE OF THE OTHER. So who came first?

I believe the FATHER. He is the only true God.

So...you don't believe the Son is a true GOD?

jamie
March 18th, 2016, 07:50 AM
True, but the son would not be the President.


Not unless he was elected by the people, which has happened.

jamie
March 18th, 2016, 07:54 AM
I believe the FATHER. He is the only true God.


Is that because the Father has never been human?

And this is why Jesus said the Father does not judge humans, but humans will be judged by God. If not Jesus, who?

RBBI
March 18th, 2016, 10:44 AM
G-d the Father was IN CHRIST, reconciling all men unto Himself. Was G-d in Himself? Or is the Son a separate person?

David also testified, when he said I heard the Lord (G-d the Father) say unto my Lord (Christ the Son)...

This is only difficult because the Nicolatians, the RCC and a myriad of others, were not interested in the truth as much as in their own selfish interests and grabs for power over the people.

To be one with someone does NOT mean you have to be the same person. The scriptures are plain about the church and the Head, the wife and the husband, ect. They are one, but different entities. So it is with the Father and the Son. Peace

glorydaz
March 18th, 2016, 11:22 AM
Do you understand that God is a title not a name?

God's name is not God, is YHWH

You understand that "President" is a title not a name, don't you? I was only responding to the nonsensical post you made.

keypurr
March 18th, 2016, 09:50 PM
So...you don't believe the Son is a true GOD?

Correct, there is only one GOD. But we also have one Lord. The image of God is a creation, the spirit son, is the first creation. However he was given the fullness of the Father, but still only his Father is the True God. John 17:3

keypurr
March 18th, 2016, 10:01 PM
Is that because the Father has never been human?

And this is why Jesus said the Father does not judge humans, but humans will be judged by God. If not Jesus, who?

No, it is because only the Father is the true God. The spirit son is a FORM of God, not God.

keypurr
March 18th, 2016, 10:03 PM
You understand that "President" is a title not a name, don't you? I was only responding to the nonsensical post you made.

The point I tried to show is the word God is a position NOT a name.

I did not mean to offend you friend. Just stating a fact.

keypurr
March 18th, 2016, 10:08 PM
G-d the Father was IN CHRIST, reconciling all men unto Himself. Was G-d in Himself? Or is the Son a separate person?

David also testified, when he said I heard the Lord (G-d the Father) say unto my Lord (Christ the Son)...

This is only difficult because the Nicolatians, the RCC and a myriad of others, were not interested in the truth as much as in their own selfish interests and grabs for power over the people.

To be one with someone does mean you have to be the same person. The scriptures are plain about the church and the Head, the wife and the husband, ect. They are one, but different entities. So it is with the Father and the Son. Peace

I see the son as the mirror image of his Father. It was the son that I believe was dwelling in Jesus. Keep in mind that this son is a spirit.

1Mind1Spirit
March 18th, 2016, 11:11 PM
G-d the Father was IN CHRIST, reconciling all men unto Himself. Was G-d in Himself? Or is the Son a separate person?

David also testified, when he said I heard the Lord (G-d the Father) say unto my Lord (Christ the Son)...

This is only difficult because the Nicolatians, the RCC and a myriad of others, were not interested in the truth as much as in their own selfish interests and grabs for power over the people.

To be one with someone does ((NOT)(1MIND'S ADDITION)) mean you have to be the same person. The scriptures are plain about the church and the Head, the wife and the husband, ect. They are one, but different entities. So it is with the Father and the Son. Peace

Purdy simple.

Easy to entreat, as is all truth from above.

Peace and blessings, friend. :)

jamie
March 19th, 2016, 08:31 AM
No, it is because only the Father is the true God. The spirit son is a FORM of God, not God.


Since the Father does not judge humans are you thinking humans won't be judged. Jesus said they will be judged.
What is your basis for disputing him?

keypurr
March 19th, 2016, 09:42 PM
Since the Father does not judge humans are you thinking humans won't be judged. Jesus said they will be judged.
What is your basis for disputing him?

We will be judged, all power was given to the son. God created all through his spirit son.
Why do you think that I am disputing him?

jamie
March 19th, 2016, 10:07 PM
Why do you think that I am disputing him?


Do you believe Jesus has the authority of and wields the power of God?

keypurr
March 19th, 2016, 11:01 PM
Do you believe Jesus has the authority of and wields the power of God?

He told us that all power was given to him in heaven and earth.

Hebrews and Colossians speak of him having the fullness of the Father, his creator.

Philippians say that he is a form of God.

patrick jane
March 19th, 2016, 11:14 PM
He told us that all power was given to him in heaven and earth.

Hebrews and Colossians speak of him having the fullness of the Father, his creator.

Philippians say that he is a form of God.

Hi keypurr, I'm glad you finally see the Trinity is correct, thanks you're the best

jamie
March 20th, 2016, 07:50 AM
Philippians say that he is a form of God.


And when he appears we will be just like him. (1 John 3:2)

1Mind1Spirit
March 20th, 2016, 07:07 PM
Hi keypurr, I'm glad you finally see the Trinity is correct, thanks you're the best

What???

You can't count to ten?

Father, Son, Comforter and the seven spirits of God?:)

1Mind1Spirit
March 20th, 2016, 07:09 PM
And when he appears we will be just like him. (1 John 3:2)

:thumb: :)

patrick jane
March 20th, 2016, 07:33 PM
:thumb: :)


Nice to see you 1Mind

1Mind1Spirit
March 20th, 2016, 07:36 PM
Nice to see you 1Mind

Same here, brother.
:)

Bright Raven
March 22nd, 2016, 01:19 PM
He told us that all power was given to him in heaven and earth.

Hebrews and Colossians speak of him having the fullness of the Father, his creator.

Philippians say that he is a form of God.What you said for Philippians is incorrect. Read what it really says.

Philippians 2:5-7 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

He existed in the form of God.

keypurr
March 25th, 2016, 09:33 PM
What you said for Philippians is incorrect. Read what it really says.

Philippians 2:5-7 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

He existed in the form of God.

The FORM of God is NOT God, it is a FORM of. The spirit son is a created copy of his creator, a form on his God. He was given the fullness of the Father, Jesus said all power in heaven and earth was GIVEN to him. If he was the true God he would have had it my friend.

Bright Raven
March 26th, 2016, 01:38 PM
The FORM of God is NOT God, it is a FORM of. The spirit son is a created copy of his creator, a form on his God. He was given the fullness of the Father, Jesus said all power in heaven and earth was GIVEN to him. If he was the true God he would have had it my friend.

No friend, It means that He existed from all eternity as God. It does not mean that He merely resembled God but that He actually is God in the truest sense of the word. (Believer's Bible Commentary) You need to look at the facts. He was either a liar, a lunatic or God. Understand this. The religious leaders wanted to kill him for blasphemy, his claim to be God. Why can't you see what the word plainly says.

Mark 14:61-64New American Standard Bible (NASB)

61 But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” 63 Tearing his clothes, the high priest *said, “What further need do we have of witnesses? 64 You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you?” And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.

They condemned Him for what? Come to know Him in this Holy season.

jamie
March 26th, 2016, 03:45 PM
The FORM of God is NOT God, it is a FORM of.


Is the Most High in the form of God or does he have a different shape?

keypurr
March 26th, 2016, 09:33 PM
No friend, It means that He existed from all eternity as God. It does not mean that He merely resembled God but that He actually is God in the truest sense of the word. (Believer's Bible Commentary) You need to look at the facts. He was either a liar, a lunatic or God. Understand this. The religious leaders wanted to kill him for blasphemy, his claim to be God. Why can't you see what the word plainly says.

I do not dispute that he existed before time was created, for even time was created through him. But he is not God. He is the spiritual son that God created. He is the EXACT IMAGE of the creator. You suck in a church box brother. Open your mind and see that the son of God was God's first born of all creatures.


Mark 14:61-64New American Standard Bible (NASB)

61 But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” 63 Tearing his clothes, the high priest *said, “What further need do we have of witnesses? 64 You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you?” And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.

They condemned Him for what? Come to know Him in this Holy season.

Read your verse again BR, Christ is not God, he is the Son of God.

Christ is a servant of his Father. There is only ONE TRUE GOD.

Your verse only proves my point.

See these friend:

Rom_1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom_15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Co_1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

2Co_11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Eph_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph_1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Eph_5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Col_1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

1Th_1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th_1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2Th_1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

1Pe_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Did you notice that the Father is the God of Jesus Christ?

keypurr
March 26th, 2016, 09:42 PM
Is the Most High in the form of God or does he have a different shape?

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Christ is a creation given the fullness of the Father. God is a spirit and so is his true son.

jamie
March 26th, 2016, 10:46 PM
So if God is in the form of God what's the big deal about Jesus being in the form of God?

What are the odds of a human father having a human son in his likeness?

Bright Raven
March 27th, 2016, 11:07 AM
I do not dispute that he existed before time was created, for even time was created through him. But he is not God. He is the spiritual son that God created. He is the EXACT IMAGE of the creator. You suck in a church box brother. Open your mind and see that the son of God was God's first born of all creatures.



Read your verse again BR, Christ is not God, he is the Son of God.

Christ is a servant of his Father. There is only ONE TRUE GOD.

Your verse only proves my point.

See these friend:

Rom_1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom_15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Co_1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

2Co_11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Eph_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph_1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Eph_5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Col_1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,

1Th_1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Th_1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2Th_1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

1Pe_1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Did you notice that the Father is the God of Jesus Christ?

Keypurr, Only God is eternal. You say that Jesus existed before time yet say that He is not eternal. That doesn't make sense. You are getting close to the truth friend. I'm still praying for you.

jamie
March 27th, 2016, 01:04 PM
Keypurr, Only God is eternal. You say that Jesus existed before time yet say that He is not eternal. That doesn't make sense. You are getting close to the truth friend. I'm still praying for you.


And Jesus' Father imparted eternal life to Jesus Christ at Jesus' resurrection. (1 Timothy 6:16)

Keypurr rejects the idea that humans are a type of being, angels are a type of being and God (Elohim) is a type of being. Elohim is a uniplural noun like family, team, nation, etc.

keypurr
March 28th, 2016, 09:30 PM
No friend, It means that He existed from all eternity as God. It does not mean that He merely resembled God but that He actually is God in the truest sense of the word. (Believer's Bible Commentary) You need to look at the facts. He was either a liar, a lunatic or God. Understand this. The religious leaders wanted to kill him for blasphemy, his claim to be God. Why can't you see what the word plainly says.

Your interpreting it wrong friend. Christ is a form of God because his God gave him power.
Christ NEVER said he was God.




Mark 14:61-64New American Standard Bible (NASB)

61 But He kept silent and did not answer. Again the high priest was questioning Him, and saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 And Jesus said, “I am; and you shall see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.” 63 Tearing his clothes, the high priest *said, “What further need do we have of witnesses? 64 You have heard the blasphemy; how does it seem to you?” And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.

They condemned Him for what? Come to know Him in this Holy season.

The Jews were also wrong, Christ said he was the SON of God, not God.
Why are you adding words to his. Who do you follow, the Jews or Christ?

keypurr
March 28th, 2016, 09:34 PM
Is the Most High in the form of God or does he have a different shape?

I disagree, Christ is the son of the most high.

Mar_5:7 And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

keypurr
March 28th, 2016, 09:48 PM
So if God is in the form of God what's the big deal about Jesus being in the form of God?

What are the odds of a human father having a human son in his likeness?

God is a spirit, his express image is also a spirit. Jesus is not the express image. The express image was given the fullness of the father. When he entered Jesus, Jesus became the Christ.

God is a position not a name, the son of God is not God.

Like a President, the son of the President is not the president, the son of God is not God.

keypurr
March 28th, 2016, 10:01 PM
Hebrews 1:3

?


Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

jamie
March 28th, 2016, 10:10 PM
Hebrews 1:3


Nonon, the term "express image" was a translation of the Greek charaktar which in English is character.
Jesus' character was like his Father's character, pure and clean.

jamie
March 28th, 2016, 10:15 PM
...the son of God is not God.


The Bible is about three types of beings: God beings, angelic beings, human beings. Only the first type fits Jesus.

keypurr
March 28th, 2016, 10:21 PM
Nonon, the term "express image" was a translation of the Greek charaktar which in English is character.
Jesus' character was like his Father's character, pure and clean.

Christ, not Jesus, was an exact copy of the Father, all images are creations, so, Christ is a created godlike creature. Jesus is the body that was created to hold the true son of God.

keypurr
March 28th, 2016, 10:25 PM
The Bible is about three types of beings: God beings, angelic beings, human beings. Only the first type fits Jesus.

Christ was MADE greater than the Angles. God created the Angles through Christ.

jamie
March 28th, 2016, 10:30 PM
Christ was MADE greater than the Angles. God created the Angles through Christ.


Well, that's a different angle.

keypurr
March 28th, 2016, 10:44 PM
Well, that's a different angle.

Yep, there is only one Christ, express image of the Father.

1Mind1Spirit
March 29th, 2016, 12:45 AM
Well, that's a different angle.

Yep.

He's got that part right.

jamie
March 29th, 2016, 08:34 AM
Jesus is the body that was created to hold the true son of God.


Since Christ is an interdimensional being why did he need someone else's body? Why not his own?

Bright Raven
March 29th, 2016, 01:04 PM
Christ, not Jesus, was an exact copy of the Father, all images are creations, so, Christ is a created godlike creature. Jesus is the body that was created to hold the true son of God.Luke 2:11 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.


You can't change the scripture.

jamie
March 29th, 2016, 02:45 PM
You can't change the scripture.


Keypurr places his theory above scripture and attempts to place a square peg in a round hole. It doesn't fit so he forces it.

keypurr
March 31st, 2016, 08:32 PM
Since Christ is an interdimensional being why did he need someone else's body? Why not his own?

Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God, the sacrifice had to be human.
God was made know to man through the spirit that was in the body of Jesus.

keypurr
March 31st, 2016, 08:47 PM
Luke 2:11 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.


You can't change the scripture.

The translators have changed the originals:

Note the AENT, it is more accurate.

Luke 2:11
For born to you all today (is the) Saviour that is Master YHWH THE Mashiyach, in the city of Dawid.

Mashiyach refers to Messiah Y’shua.

Your Greek translations have caused misleading verses friend. Go to the Aramaic. Get another view or the verse in question.

keypurr
March 31st, 2016, 08:54 PM
Keypurr places his theory above scripture and attempts to place a square peg in a round hole. It doesn't fit so he forces it.

I see my theory as truth given to me by my Lord and his God.

I have tried now for over three years to bring a better understanding of who the Son really is to the folks on this forum. But most have limited their search for truth in the church box of tradition. Tradition is a very hard thing to over come, but you must if you sincerely want truth.

jamie
March 31st, 2016, 09:06 PM
I have tried now for over three years to bring a better understanding of who the Son really is to the folks on this forum.


My contention is that you have misrepresented the Son, so let's look at it.


...to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect... (Hebrews 12:23)

Do you believe God is the judge of all? How does it read in your AENT?

keypurr
March 31st, 2016, 09:19 PM
My contention is that you have misrepresented the Son, so let's look at it.


...to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect... (Hebrews 12:23)

Do you believe God is the judge of all? How does it read in your AENT?

Everything comes from Elohim. The son was given the power from his Father.

Loosen up Jamie, truth is being shown to you. The true Son of God came down from heaven to bring light, not darkness. The true son is much more than a human. Learn about the Dove, it is worth your time to understand that.

jamie
March 31st, 2016, 09:27 PM
My question was, "Do you believe God is the judge of all?"

keypurr
April 1st, 2016, 10:41 PM
My question was, "Do you believe God is the judge of all?"

If Christ is the mediator between God and man then God is the judge.
However, he gave his son the power to forgive sins.
Who do you think will pass out the grace?

keypurr
April 1st, 2016, 10:44 PM
Jamie, do you think express image came down from heaven or was he born in Bethlehem?

Why did he need a body prepared for him?

What really is the "LOGOS"?

jamie
April 2nd, 2016, 08:01 AM
What really is the "LOGOS"?


The Logos is the Word of YHVH who spoke to the prophets. He became human just as John explains and died on the afternoon of April 6, 30 CE.

Since the penalty for unrepented sin is spiritual death, the Word died physically and spiritualy. The Word was stone cold dead. Gone.
He would have been dead forever had not his Father intervened and changed the Word back to his former state as a God.

We will join the Word and be like him in character, his express image.

jamie
April 2nd, 2016, 08:06 AM
Why did he need a body prepared for him?


The Word had said through prophets that Messiah would be a son of David. The Word as God was not a son of David so he was born of woman as a native Son of Judah to be the King of Israel.

keypurr
April 2nd, 2016, 09:26 PM
The Logos is the Word of YHVH who spoke to the prophets. He became human just as John explains and died on the afternoon of April 6, 30 CE.

Since the penalty for unrepented sin is spiritual death, the Word died physically and spiritualy. The Word was stone cold dead. Gone.
He would have been dead forever had not his Father intervened and changed the Word back to his former state as a God.

We will join the Word and be like him in character, his express image.

I believe that the logos is the spiritual son.
In a way saying it is the word is only part correct. For the son gives us the words on his father.

keypurr
April 2nd, 2016, 09:30 PM
The Word had said through prophets that Messiah would be a son of David. The Word as God was not a son of David so he was born of woman as a native Son of Judah to be the King of Israel.

The WORD was NOT BORN, the WORD was SENT. Proves my point, the word is not the logos but the one who brings the word. The express image, there is only ONE express image of the Father. And there will be no more.

jamie
April 2nd, 2016, 09:33 PM
I believe that the logos is the spiritual son.
In a way saying it is the word is only part correct. For the son gives us the words on his father.


Logos is translated in John 1:1 as the Word. And the Logos was born of woman as the Son of Man as well as the Son of God.

patrick jane
April 2nd, 2016, 09:33 PM
The WORD was NOT BORN, the WORD was SENT. Proves my point, the word is not the logos but the one who brings the word. The express image, there is only ONE express image of the Father. And there will be no more.
John 1:1-3 KJV - John 1:14 KJV -

jamie
April 2nd, 2016, 09:35 PM
The WORD was NOT BORN, the WORD was SENT. Proves my point, the word is not the logos but the one who brings the word. The express image, there is only ONE express image of the Father. And there will be no more.


:doh:

steko
April 2nd, 2016, 09:42 PM
The translators have changed the originals:

Note the AENT, it is more accurate.

Luke 2:11
For born to you all today (is the) Saviour that is Master YHWH THE Mashiyach, in the city of Dawid.

Mashiyach refers to Messiah Y’shua.

Your Greek translations have caused misleading verses friend. Go to the Aramaic. Get another view or the verse in question.

I think it's interesting that the AENT calls Yeshua Mashiah, YHVH.

keypurr
April 2nd, 2016, 09:51 PM
Logos is translated in John 1:1 as the Word. And the Logos was born of woman as the Son of Man as well as the Son of God.

I think the Greek is wrong here.

ARAMAIC ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT

YOCHANAN (JOHN)
Chapter 1
1. In the beginning was the Miltha. And that Miltha was with Elohim. And Elohim was that Miltha.
2. This was with Elohim in the beginning.
3. Everything existed through his hands……….

Miltha refers to the “Manifestation” of the Ruach haKodesh within Mashiyach. The physical body of Mashiyach is not the Word of YHWH, but his words and actions demonstrate the Will and Word of YHWH, which upholds observance of Torah.

Miltha is the spiritual son of Elohim (God).
Mashiyach refers to Messiah Y’shua (Jesus Christ)
YHWH is the name of the most high God.
Ruach haKodesh is the Holy Spirit.
Elohim is God or a god, it can refer to more than the creator.

keypurr
April 2nd, 2016, 09:53 PM
:doh:

I knew you would not understand.

keypurr
April 2nd, 2016, 09:57 PM
John 1:1-3 KJV - John 1:14 KJV -

Learn other translations for the KJV is not perfect.

RBBI
April 3rd, 2016, 08:00 PM
Purdy simple.

Easy to entreat, as is all truth from above.

Peace and blessings, friend. :)

Thanks for catching that 1M1S....I was in a hurry....peace.

RBBI
April 3rd, 2016, 08:02 PM
I see we're right where I left off on this. The law of the Seed is not that hard to understand, surely....Peace

Bright Raven
April 6th, 2016, 04:48 PM
Learn other translations for the KJV is not perfect.
Since when is God's word not perfect?

2 Timothy 3:16New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

keypurr
April 7th, 2016, 08:39 PM
Since when is God's word not perfect?

2 Timothy 3:16New American Standard Bible (NASB)

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
God's word is perfect but man's translation are in error.

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patrick jane
April 7th, 2016, 09:00 PM
God's word is perfect but man's translation are in error.

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At least man got the Trinity right ! I'm glad you converted to Trinity acceptance keypurr, good for you.

csuguy
April 7th, 2016, 09:16 PM
The nutty thing about the Trinity is just how much you need to invent to support it. Nowhere does scripture teach that "God" = "three persons" who are said to be "one" on account of their shared "substance" or some such thing. Complete sophistry.

Scripture does teach that there is God, who is the Father, and that their is the Son, Jesus, a man. But apparently they can't be trusted to describe their relationship - so we dismiss these terms by instead addressing them as "God the Son" and "God the HS". They ignore the vast wealth of scriptures that clearly differentiate Jesus, the man, from God Almighty (not just "Father", but "God")

Scripture plainly teaches that the Father is greater than the Son, that the Son was given all power and authority, that he acts as the Father instructs him, that in the end he will himself be made subject to God. All this is ignored and they make up the fiction that "oh - this was only speaking of him while living here as a man"

Even worse? They treat their non-sensical doctrine, which they declare a "mystery", as THE defining doctrine of a Christian. They reject nay-sayers for a completely irrelevant doctrine that ultimately has nothing to do with the Gospel or living as a Christian. The doctrine adds nothing to one's understanding of God, nor does it guide one's life in any meaningful way.

patrick jane
April 7th, 2016, 09:31 PM
Heretic List candidate - CSUGUY

keypurr
April 8th, 2016, 10:17 AM
At least man got the Trinity right ! I'm glad you converted to Trinity acceptance keypurr, good for you.
I am not a Trinity beliver friend, only the Father is the true God.

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keypurr
April 8th, 2016, 10:21 AM
The nutty thing about the Trinity is just how much you need to invent to support it. Nowhere does scripture teach that "God" = "three persons" who are said to be "one" on account of their shared "substance" or some such thing. Complete sophistry.

Scripture does teach that there is God, who is the Father, and that their is the Son, Jesus, a man. But apparently they can't be trusted to describe their relationship - so we dismiss these terms by instead addressing them as "God the Son" and "God the HS". They ignore the vast wealth of scriptures that clearly differentiate Jesus, the man, from God Almighty (not just "Father", but "God")

Scripture plainly teaches that the Father is greater than the Son, that the Son was given all power and authority, that he acts as the Father instructs him, that in the end he will himself be made subject to God. All this is ignored and they make up the fiction that "oh - this was only speaking of him while living here as a man"

Even worse? They treat their non-sensical doctrine, which they declare a "mystery", as THE defining doctrine of a Christian. They reject nay-sayers for a completely irrelevant doctrine that ultimately has nothing to do with the Gospel or living as a Christian. The doctrine adds nothing to one's understanding of God, nor does it guide one's life in any meaningful way.
Great post, why will they not listen to us?

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Bright Raven
April 8th, 2016, 12:48 PM
Great post, why will they not listen to us?

Sent from my SM-T330NU using TheologyOnline mobile app ('https://siteowners.tapatalk.com/byo/displayAndDownloadByoApp?rid=78367')

Because you are wrong.

Lon
April 8th, 2016, 01:17 PM
The nutty thing about the Trinity is just how much you need to invent to support it. Nowhere does scripture teach that "God" = "three persons" who are said to be "one" on account of their shared "substance" or some such thing. Complete sophistry. Only if you throw out "...and these three are one..." :Plain: There are many scriptures that make it plain and I've always thought you the nut for missing it and the ECF's embracing verses that spell it out. You are against all of Christendom and most with a lot more intelligence. Going against the grain is NOT always the smartest thing to do, and more often than not, 3rd grade cult mentality.


Scripture does teach that there is God, who is the Father, and that their is the Son, Jesus, a man. But apparently they can't be trusted to describe their relationship - so we dismiss these terms by instead addressing them as "God the Son" and "God the HS". They ignore the vast wealth of scriptures that clearly differentiate Jesus, the man, from God Almighty (not just "Father", but "God")
You'll likely not get this but let's give it a whirl. Read these: John 10:30 Isaiah 45:5 Hebrews 1:3 John 1:1 John 20:28
Put them together in the ONLY way that makes any kind of sense, without quite understanding how, but embracing all of scripture, and you have nothing but a triune view. All else fails to take God at His word and dismisses or falsely 'logics' around clear scripture teaching after the fashion of all cultists who hate God's word and MUST explain it away. This is ever the reason I've put you on ignore. I either find you dishonest or so anti-intelligent, that it is a waste of time.


Scripture plainly teaches that the Father is greater than the Son, that the Son was given all power and authority, that he acts as the Father instructs him, that in the end he will himself be made subject to God. All this is ignored and they make up the fiction that "oh - this was only speaking of him while living here as a man" Er, an 'exact representation' doesn't mean 'greater' in the way you are thinking. One is subordinate to the other, yes, but the same being. Again, John 1:1 says "...with AND was" God. That's triune. Anything else is inept.


Even worse? They treat their non-sensical doctrine, which they declare a "mystery", as THE defining doctrine of a Christian. Um, you have arians on one side throwing away half of scripture and modalists on the other side throwing out the other half. Between you, you have a whole Bible. That always escapes the both of you. ONLY Trinitarians hold to all of the scriptures you two opposing groups alternately throw away/explain away (as if you could, we who are smarter, more intelligent, and not stuck with third-grade mentalities aren't duped).


They reject nay-sayers for a completely irrelevant doctrine that ultimately has nothing to do with the Gospel or living as a Christian. Remember "Are Unit-arians Perverted?" I found that most of you are living yet in the flesh, are 'works' oriented trying to work your way to heaven, and that this group has a lot of potty-mouths.


The doctrine adds nothing to one's understanding of God, nor does it guide one's life in any meaningful way. The sad thing is you are absolutely right. Every tongue will confess and every knee will bow. Unitarians generally do not at all esteem the Son nor hear Him standing at the door to knock and indwell where He will sup with they, and they Him. You lose a ton by dismissing John 20:18. You live without His supernatural indwelling in your lives and you treat Him as a second-rate citizen as portrayed above :
Scripture does teach that there is God, who is the Father, and that their is the Son, Jesus, a man.
Only a new creation, recreated 'in Christ Jesus' as born-again will see the kingdom of heaven. It is soley by His hand. We don't make ourselves new creations. We do not and cannot born-again ourselves. It is the work of Christ alone and by His hand. Your Arianism knows no such thing as a Christ who presents us pure before the Father: two beings who are yet the same "with and was" God. John 1:1

There is no other way to read and understand scriptures or become a new creation. "No man comes to the Father" but by Jesus Christ.
It verily demands that you understand His deity. He and the Father are one.

meshak
April 8th, 2016, 01:22 PM
Lon,

csuguy is hardly here.

Bright Raven
April 8th, 2016, 03:01 PM
What are you trying to say?

keypurr
April 8th, 2016, 09:26 PM
Because you are wrong.

Then you should be able to prove it in the scriptures my friend.

jamie
April 8th, 2016, 09:53 PM
Then you should be able to prove it in the scriptures my friend.


Jesus said that the holy spirit flows out of us like rivers of living water. (John 7:38-39)

The holy spirit was poured out on Cornelius. (Acts 10:45)

Jesus told the woman at the well he would have given her living water that would become a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.
(John 4:14)

keypurr
April 8th, 2016, 09:59 PM
Jesus said that the holy spirit flows out of us like rivers of living water. (John 7:38-39)

The holy spirit was poured out on Cornelius. (Acts 10:45)

Jesus told the woman at the well he would have given her living water that would become a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.
(John 4:14)

Amen, Amen

csuguy
April 9th, 2016, 05:46 AM
Only if you throw out "...and these three are one..." :Plain: There are many scriptures that make it plain and I've always thought you the nut for missing it and the ECF's embracing verses that spell it out. You are against all of Christendom and most with a lot more intelligence. Going against the grain is NOT always the smartest thing to do, and more often than not, 3rd grade cult mentality.

Everyone agrees that the three are one, the question is in what sense are they one? Nothing in scripture even hints at the idea that they are different personages of one God, unified via substance or some such thing. A much more natural interpretation is that they are one in will, in purpose, etc. There an abundance of scriptures to support this concept of them being one. Especially when you take into account Jesus' prayer that we be one as he and the Father are one.


You'll likely not get this but let's give it a whirl. Read these: John 10:30 Isaiah 45:5 Hebrews 1:3 John 1:1 John 20:28
Put them together in the ONLY way that makes any kind of sense, without quite understanding how, but embracing all of scripture, and you have nothing but a triune view. All else fails to take God at His word and dismisses or falsely 'logics' around clear scripture teaching after the fashion of all cultists who hate God's word and MUST explain it away. This is ever the reason I've put you on ignore. I either find you dishonest or so anti-intelligent, that it is a waste of time.

I don't have any trouble with these scriptures whatsoever; they are fully compatible with my view when read in context. I've gone 'round and 'round with you and others on these scriptures, but I'd be happy to discuss them again in more detail if you'd like. What you are doing by cherry-picking scriptures out of context is to make it look like Jesus is God Almighty himself. But if you bother to truly study these passages and scripture as a whole, your argument quickly falls apart.

John 10:30, for instance, reads "I and the Father are one.” But I pose the question up above - in what sense are they said to be 'one.' Are they identical? No. Even the Trinitarian cannot assert such a thing, even they must admit that the Father and the Son are distinct persons. If we agree that being 'one' is not the same as saying that they are identical, then we must further evaluate based upon the context what is meant. There is plenty to support the idea that they are one in purpose, in will, etc. There is nothing to support the idea that what is meant is that they are different personages of one God.

Isaiah 45:5 read “I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will [a]gird you, though you have not known Me;" You attempt to use this along with some other passages that use the term God along with Jesus to attempt to say that he is the one true God. There are two problems with this. First is that the overwhelming scriptural evidence that Jesus is not God Almighty. The second problem is that there is precedent in the scriptures for calling others 'God' who are not God Almighty himself.

Hebrews 1:8-9 for example reads "But of the Son He says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of [h]His kingdom. 9 “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness above Your companions.” This passage partially demonstrates both points. He is called "God" here, but it simultaneously states speaks of "Your God." If "God" has a God, then clearly the "God" being addressed is not God Almighty.

Remember that the angel in the burning bush was also addressed as "God", and God even said to Moses that he would make him God to Pharaoh, and that Aaron is his prophet. So there is a precedent for those who speak for God being addressed as if they were God himself. How much more does this apply, then, for the "exact representation" of God?

We must also remember such scriptures like this that clearly and without question differentiate Jesus from God:


1 Cor 15:27-28 "For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all."

I've yet to see a Trinitarian address this verse in any meaningful fashion. They ignore the clear teachings of scripture and blindly say things like "the scriptures teach the Trinity so this is inline with the Trinity too". They've put on blinders and refuse to see the truth. They have eyes yet don't see, ears yet don't hear.


Er, an 'exact representation' doesn't mean 'greater' in the way you are thinking. One is subordinate to the other, yes, but the same being. Again, John 1:1 says "...with AND was" God. That's triune. Anything else is inept.

I didn't say anything about 'exact representation' in that quoted passage so not sure what you are responding to here. However, since you bring it up, by being called a 'representation' - even an exact one - a clear divide is presented between God and Christ. For the representation of something is necessarily not the thing itself.


Um, you have arians on one side throwing away half of scripture and modalists on the other side throwing out the other half. Between you, you have a whole Bible. That always escapes the both of you. ONLY Trinitarians hold to all of the scriptures you two opposing groups alternately throw away/explain away (as if you could, we who are smarter, more intelligent, and not stuck with third-grade mentalities aren't duped).

I don't have any trouble accepting any of the scriptures - because I study scripture to learn what it teaches. Trinitarians, on the other hand, only superficially accept the scriptures on this matter. They have to invent entirely new definitions and add all kinds of things to the scriptures to attempt to force the scriptures to read in such a way that it supports their dogma. Hence they can't accept the simple "Father" "Son" relationship that is presented in the scriptures - they must invent non-sensical doctrines to define the relationship. These doctrines are so convulted that they are presented as a "mystery." They then address the three with new terms that they invented based upon their enigmatic theology like "God the Son" and "God the HS"


Remember "Are Unit-arians Perverted?" I found that most of you are living yet in the flesh, are 'works' oriented trying to work your way to heaven, and that this group has a lot of potty-mouths.

I remember you making a lot of asserting a bunch of hateful non-sense. You have constantly made broad, unfounded attacks on non-trinitarians. But your hate and bigotry towards us is not a valid basis for a theological argument.


The sad thing is you are absolutely right. Every tongue will confess and every knee will bow. Unitarians generally do not at all esteem the Son nor hear Him standing at the door to knock and indwell where He will sup with they, and they Him. You lose a ton by dismissing John 20:18. You live without His supernatural indwelling in your lives and you treat Him as a second-rate citizen as portrayed above :
Only a new creation, recreated 'in Christ Jesus' as born-again will see the kingdom of heaven. It is soley by His hand. We don't make ourselves new creations. We do not and cannot born-again ourselves. It is the work of Christ alone and by His hand. Your Arianism knows no such thing as a Christ who presents us pure before the Father: two beings who are yet the same "with and was" God. John 1:1

Empty assertions. It's no different than the non-sensical position that "if you were a REAL Christian, you would simply understand these things and agree with me!" Both sides can make such rhetorical statements, but it adds nothing to the conversation.


There is no other way to read and understand scriptures or become a new creation. "No man comes to the Father" but by Jesus Christ.
It verily demands that you understand His deity. He and the Father are one.

Saying that no one comes to the Father but through Jesus in no way shape or form logically implies that Jesus must therefore be God. And I've already addressed the matter of them being 'one' up above.

Lon
April 9th, 2016, 02:07 PM
Everyone agrees that the three are one, the question is in what sense are they one? Nothing in scripture even hints at the idea that they are different personages of one God, unified via substance or some such thing. A much more natural interpretation is that they are one in will, in purpose, etc. There an abundance of scriptures to support this concept of them being one. Especially when you take into account Jesus' prayer that we be one as he and the Father are one. You have an obtusion. John 1:1 and John 20:28 say differently than your blind assertion.


I don't have any trouble with these scriptures whatsoever; they are fully compatible with my view
And here is the caveat:


when read in context. Your 'made-up' definition of a poor context not given in scriptures. John 1:1 can only be read as "was with and was God." "With and was?" Yep. Context. It's everything and you arians and Unitarians miss it every time. :dizzy:


I've gone 'round and 'round with you and others on these scriptures, but I'd be happy to discuss them again in more detail if you'd like. What you are doing by cherry-picking scriptures out of context is to make it look like Jesus is God Almighty himself. But if you bother to truly study these passages and scripture as a whole, your argument quickly falls apart.
There is no need. This is my BA from a Christian college, not an understudy from a secular university. At barely 20, you were already brainwashed with this junk.


John 10:30, for instance, reads "I and the Father are one.” But I pose the question up above - in what sense are they said to be 'one.' Are they identical? No. Even the Trinitarian cannot assert such a thing, even they must admit that the Father and the Son are distinct persons.You have NO way to assert where they are identical and where they are not. We can read Father and Son becoming Flesh with the Son subordinate. Dolly the sheep is one sheep existing in two bodies. You might think seeing two sheep that she is two, but it isn't true. All parts that make up Dolly the sheep came from the one Dolly the Sheep. Dolly the Clone, is Dolly.



If we agree that being 'one' is not the same as saying that they are identical, then we must further evaluate based upon the context what is meant. There is plenty to support the idea that they are one in purpose, in will, etc. There is nothing to support the idea that what is meant is that they are different personages of one God. Colossians 1:15 Hebrews 1:3 :noway:


Isaiah 45:5 read “I am the Lord, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will [a]gird you, though you have not known Me;" You attempt to use this along with some other passages that use the term God along with Jesus to attempt to say that he is the one true God. There are two problems with this. First is that the overwhelming scriptural evidence that Jesus is not God Almighty. The second problem is that there is precedent in the scriptures for calling others 'God' who are not God Almighty himself.
Er, not Isaiah 9:6 Colossians 1:17 (compare to Genesis 1:1), and Revelation 1:8 Oops


Hebrews 1:8-9 for example reads "But of the Son He says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of [h]His kingdom. 9 “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness above Your companions.” This passage partially demonstrates both points. He is called "God" here, but it simultaneously states speaks of "Your God." If "God" has a God, then clearly the "God" being addressed is not God Almighty.
:doh: But "of the Son, He says!!!" No wonder you are a moon-unit-arian!


Remember that the angel in the burning bush was also addressed as "God", and God even said to Moses that he would make him God to Pharaoh, and that Aaron is his prophet. So there is a precedent for those who speak for God being addressed as if they were God himself. How much more does this apply, then, for the "exact representation" of God?
Every Mormon and JW I have ever met use this lame and brain-dead example. Are you a 'god' cs? Shall I pray to you? :dizzy: It is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. We are but the children of Gods and thus have His inheritance. Anything more is arrogant and not worth my or any other Christian's time. In fact, I see it as blasphemy. John 10:33


We must also remember such scriptures like this that clearly and without question differentiate Jesus from God:
1 Cor 15:27-28 "For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all."

I've yet to see a Trinitarian address this verse in any meaningful fashion. They ignore the clear teachings of scripture and blindly say things like "the scriptures teach the Trinity so this is inline with the Trinity too". They've put on blinders and refuse to see the truth. They have eyes yet don't see, ears yet don't hear.
The Trinitarian is the 'least' developed view, on purpose! Why, because dopes who think they are smarter than the rest of us trolley off into heresy that explicitly denies scriptures and tries to define the Lord of the universe who is beyond your feeble logicking ability.


I didn't say anything about 'exact representation' in that quoted passage so not sure what you are responding to here. However, since you bring it up, by being called a 'representation' - even an exact one - a clear divide is presented between God and Christ. For the representation of something is necessarily not the thing itself.Not sure what translation you are reading Hebrews 1:3 and Colossians make exact clear. Dolly the sheep is one sheep. She exists in two different bodies, though the second body is all from the first sheep and all that is there was always there. She is a clone. The clone always existed as long as Dolly existed, but not separate. The separation is what was already existing in her, put outside of her body as a second sheep. If one leads the other, the other is subordinate. The first one 'can' give something like her milk to the second one (her second self is younger 'by birth' BUT the same age as the first because she came from her). Our language and conception 'can' grasp at least somewhat, this one sheep in two bodies. God is Spirit and we have verses that tell us Jesus is the exact representation of the invisible God. Jesus is alpha and omega. Jesus is yesterday, today, and forever the same. If you can understand that about a sheep, you can certainly understand it about God. There is only one sheep in two bodies. There is only one God.




I don't have any trouble accepting any of the scriptures - because I study scripture to learn what it teaches. Trinitarians, on the other hand, only superficially accept the scriptures on this matter. They have to invent entirely new definitions and add all kinds of things to the scriptures to attempt to force the scriptures to read in such a way that it supports their dogma. Hence they can't accept the simple "Father" "Son" relationship that is presented in the scriptures - they must invent non-sensical doctrines to define the relationship. These doctrines are so convulted that they are presented as a "mystery." They then address the three with new terms that they invented based upon their enigmatic theology like "God the Son" and "God the HS"
Er, your undergraduate work in a secular university hardly qualifies you AND you haven't changed a lick since you were 19 years old. It is the same ol' cult/same ol' heresy.

I remember you making a lot of asserting a bunch of hateful non-sense. You have constantly made broad, unfounded attacks on non-trinitarians. But your hate and bigotry towards us is not a valid basis for a theological argument.
Absolutely, I hate condemnable lies. That thread simply showed that the man without the Spirit does not understand the things of the Spirit and his fruits reflect that nature.



Empty assertions. It's no different than the non-sensical position that "if you were a REAL Christian, you would simply understand these things and agree with me!" Both sides can make such rhetorical statements, but it adds nothing to the conversation.
Wowch! Just so people hear what you are saying is 'non-sense and assertions' in case they missed it:


The sad thing is you are absolutely right. Every tongue will confess and every knee will bow. Unitarians generally do not at all esteem the Son nor hear Him standing at the door to knock and indwell where He will sup with they, and they Him. You lose a ton by dismissing John 20:18. You live without His supernatural indwelling in your lives and you treat Him as a second-rate citizen as portrayed above :
Only a new creation, recreated 'in Christ Jesus' as born-again will see the kingdom of heaven. It is soley by His hand. We don't make ourselves new creations. We do not and cannot born-again ourselves. It is the work of Christ alone and by His hand. Your Arianism knows no such thing as a Christ who presents us pure before the Father: two beings who are yet the same "with and was" God. John 1:1

You are saying you have not experienced being made a new-creation or have had the indwelling of Christ! There is no way any Christian is going to listen to you, but it makes sense, when you arians and Unitarians absolutely do not understand who He is or have fellowship with Him.


Saying that no one comes to the Father but through Jesus in no way shape or form logically implies that Jesus must therefore be God. And I've already addressed the matter of them being 'one' up above.You need to read Revelation (again). Your Jesus Christ is not Him. Revelation 1:8; 17

He calls God His Father, and John calls Him the Lord God Almighty.

csuguy
April 9th, 2016, 03:25 PM
You have an obtrusion. John 1:1 and John 20:28 say differently than your blind assertion.

And here is the caveat:

Your 'made-up' definition of a poor context not given in scriptures. John 1:1 can only be read as "was with and was God." "With and was?" Yep. Context. It's everything and you arians and Unitarians miss it every time. :dizzy:

I don't have any trouble with John 1:1 or John 20:28. I addressed in my previous post the matter of Jesus being called "God." It is not unique for someone other than God Almighty to be called/addressed as God. Examples include angels sent by God, men sent by God (as with Moses), as well as those who have recieved the Word of God.


John 10:34-36 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

So I have no problem accepting that Jesus is called God by the scriptures; there is precendent for those who are clearly not God Almighty being called "God." And not in the sense of being false-gods, but in the sense of being God's representatives and God's people, his children. If it can be applied to us, who are imperfect and who have been adopted as God's sons and daughters - how much more so God's only begotten Son?

Trinitarians, however, have no good means of addressing the scriptures which clearly and repeatedly differentiate Jesus, the Son, from God. Hence you have refused to even attempt to address the passage I presented from 1 Cor 15 - because the Trinitarians have no good answer for such verses.


There is no need. This is my BA from a Christian college, not an understudy from a secular university. At barely 20, you were already brainwashed with this junk.

Not only do I have a degree in Religious Studies myself, but I am the son of pastor, and I have put in enormous amounts of study into these issues far beyond anything that any of these colleges would require of an undergraduate student. So you are certainly no more qualified than I to speak on these matters - especially when you are so confident in yourself that you simply dismiss all the facts that contradict you, saying "there is no need"

I was never brain washed into rejecting the Trinity. I never even attended a church that rejected it. Rather, my rejection came as a direct result of studying it so that I could defend it. Growing up, I primarily attended the Church of the Nazarene (http://nazarene.org/) and was taught fairly typical interpretations of the scriptures, including the Trinity. I never desired to give up the Trinity, and I wasn't indoctrinated into rejecting it as you blindly assert. Rather my rejection of the Trinity was the natural result of studying first the scriptures and then the writings of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers.



Colossians 1:15 Hebrews 1:3 :noway:

And? These don't address the issue of what it means for them to be 'one.'



Er, not Isaiah 9:6 Colossians 1:17 (compare to Genesis 1:1), and Revelation 1:8 Oops

Simply listing a bunch of scriptures is not sufficient to make an argument. We both know the scriptures, you aren't going to find one that I haven't considered on this topic such that simply quoting/referencing it is going to surprise me and cause me to rethink you position. I accept all these scriptures without any problem. You will need to take the time to truly respond to my points and to truly expand upon such scriptural references to form your arguments and rebuttals. If you can't do this then the conversation can't move forward.



:doh: But "of the Son, He says!!!" No wonder you are a moon-unit-arian!

The passage clearly differentiates the Son, who is here addressed as "God", from "Your God" - God Almighty. And I'm not a unitarian; I don't belong to any particular denomination.



Every Mormon and JW I have ever met use this lame and brain-dead example. Are you a 'god' cs? Shall I pray to you? :dizzy: It is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. We are but the children of Gods and thus have His inheritance. Anything more is arrogant and not worth my or any other Christian's time. In fact, I see it as blasphemy. John 10:33

And this quote demonstrates your problem: you don't bother to study these scriptures in context to learn what is actually being taught. You are here quoting the foolish jews who lacked understanding and were persecuting Christ. How did Christ reply?


John 10:31-39 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may [f]know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” 39 Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp.

So, yes, we are called 'gods' by scripture. Despite this, Jesus never called himself God but always the Son of God, as he does here.


The Trinitarian is the 'least' developed view, on purpose! Why, because dopes who think they are smarter than the rest of us trolley off into heresy that explicitly denies scriptures and tries to define the Lord of the universe who is beyond your feeble logicking ability.

The least developed view? Your kidding, right? They spent hundreds of years developing it, they waged large-scale political wars over it, they persecuted their fellow Christians over it. Almost the entirety of the fourth century was consumed by this debate. It is non-sense to call the Trinity the 'least' developed view. Least scriptural perhaps. Rather, the Trinitarians have had to develop an entirely new vocabulary and numerous back-stories for the scriptures so as to force the scriptures to read how they want them too. Despite this, it is still an illogical doctrine that doesn't mesh with the scriptures - and so they further defend it by calling it a "mystery" that "you would understand if you TRULY believed." Rhetorical non-sense.



Not sure what translation you are reading Hebrews 1:3 and Colossians make exact clear. Dolly the sheep is one sheep. She exists in two different bodies, though the second body is all from the first sheep and all that is there was always there. She is a clone. The clone always existed as long as Dolly existed, but not separate. The separation is what was already existing in her, put outside of her body as a second sheep. If one leads the other, the other is subordinate. The first one 'can' give something like her milk to the second one (her second self is younger 'by birth' BUT the same age as the first because she came from her). Our language and conception 'can' grasp at least somewhat, this one sheep in two bodies. God is Spirit and we have verses that tell us Jesus is the exact representation of the invisible God. Jesus is alpha and omega. Jesus is yesterday, today, and forever the same. If you can understand that about a sheep, you can certainly understand it about God. There is only one sheep in two bodies. There is only one God.

Way to fail Lon! The cloned sheep does not exist in two different bodies; There are two distinct bodies - the original, and the clone. The clone may have been created from the original, but it is its own body and being entirely. Like twins - they may look the same, but they are distinct persons with distinct bodies. Nor did the clone exist as long as the original existed - our cells are constantly dying and being replaced, every single cell in the body.

As for Jesus being given all power and authority - by saying he was given it infers that he did not have it to begin with. It's not his power and authority by nature - it is God's. And, ultimately, Jesus will be subjected to God, once all enemies have been defeated (1 Cor 15)



Er, your undergraduate work in a secular university hardly qualifies you AND you haven't changed a lick since you were 19 years old. It is the same ol' cult/same ol' heresy.

First off, my studies have far exceeded anything they taught me at the university. Most of what I learned from them had little directly to do with Christianity. Rather I took a lot of classes on other religions like Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, etc. And I was taught these classes by Rabbis, Jews, Buddhists, etc. such that each class was typically taught by a practitioner of the religion in question. Something you wouldn't get at a purely Christian University - and something very important for anyone who seriously wants to evangelize. It is not enough to understand your own beliefs, you must understand what others believe - where they are coming from. It also reinforces the divide between Christianity and other religions - you learn just how different these other religions are.

Going to a Christian University doesn't lend you any advantages or authority when discussing theology. Most Christian Universities have a well-defined belief set such that you aren't going there to truly study theology, but to learn how to present and defend their particular belief set. Not to say all Christian Universities or Seminaries are like this - but most of them are. However, even if we assume you went to a top of the line Christian University/Seminary that truly studied these isues - it still wouldn't in of itself lend you any credibility or authority. All that matters is that you can honestly study these matters and can present well-founded arguments, while honestly responding to the critiques and positions of your theological opponent. You won't convince anyone by appealing to authority.

You blindly assert that my views haven't changed since I was 19 - but this just demonstrates your ignorance of me and my studies. I had started to question the Trinity by then, but I didn't have any real answers. That's why I spent my undergraduate years really diving into the matter, studying the writings of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers and various other works on the Trinity and the Early Church. With regards the Trinity and other matters, my theological understanding between then and now is entirely different.

Not that I expect this to change your mind of me or others - you have a bigotry towards any non-trinitarian and like to claim they must have been indoctrinated by a cult or some such thing.



Absolutely, I hate condemnable lies. That thread simply showed that the man without the Spirit does not understand the things of the Spirit and his fruits reflect that nature.

Interpretation: "I hate those who don't agree with me, I'm going to assert a bunch of non-sense about them to justify my hate."



Wowch! Just so people hear what you are saying is 'non-sense and assertions' in case they missed it:

You are saying you have not experienced being made a new-creation or have had the indwelling of Christ! There is no way any Christian is going to listen to you, but it makes sense, when you arians and Unitarians absolutely do not understand who He is or have fellowship with Him.

You need to read Revelation (again). Your Jesus Christ is not Him. Revelation 1:8; 17

He calls God His Father, and John calls Him the Lord God Almighty.

I called the block of text where you asserted things like this non-sense: "Unitarians generally do not at all esteem the Son nor hear Him standing at the door to knock and indwell where He will sup with they, and they Him. You lose a ton by dismissing John 20:18. You live without His supernatural indwelling in your lives and you treat Him as a second-rate citizen as portrayed above"

I did not assert that the new-creation or indwelling of the HS was non-sense. But I guess this is about the level of intellectually dishonesty I have come to expect from you, so no surprises here.

Ask Mr. Religion
April 9th, 2016, 03:58 PM
Er, your undergraduate work in a secular university hardly qualifies you AND you haven't changed a lick since you were 19 years old. It is the same ol' cult/same ol' heresy.

Fortunately some secular school instructors still hold fast to the teachings of Scripture. One of csuguy's own instructors saw in him what you see now:

He [csuguy] does seem to be one of a number of Christians (perhaps not what you would call them) I have met however who have misgivings about the Trinity as a doctrine that can be seen clearly articulated in the New Testament...not arguing that Jesus is divine, but that he is God incarnate or coequal etc. Some of these people have already made up their minds before they start to study in depth, but that’s hardly unusual either. These are people who are attracted to a certain strand in Mormonism, or to the past opponents of the Church. Sometimes I just say to them that they are plain heretics...but that’s a phenomenon that all Protestant movements have to cope with, once dogmatic church teachings was abandoned and the sole guide to faith became one’s personal interaction with scripture. (Src: personal email correspondence, Nov. 19, 2009)

The professor is not off the mark to lay part of the blame for the Mormonistic tendencies of the likes of csuguy at the door of the church militant. So few churches today actually confess what they hold dear in plain view for all to see, teaching and holding their members accountable to the same. Sadly, to the shame of Our Lord's Bride, they stand for nothing and believe in everything.

Csuguy is very entrenched in his position. He proclaims it at every opportunity, and demonstrates he is not really open to correction, despite his own claims that he is just trying to learn. Indeed, his posts have no epistemic humility, rather he asserts much and seeks to establish himself as a teacher to correct all the so-called "man-made doctrines of the Trinity". Csuguy has made God the Son into a secondary emission of the essence of God. A kind of superman or lesser God, one not fully divine, very God of very God. In effect, csuguy makes our Lord out to be a liar or a lunatic.

AMR

csuguy
April 9th, 2016, 04:22 PM
Fortunately some secular school instructors still hold fast to the teachings of Scripture. One of csuguy's own instructors saw in him what you see now:

He [csuguy] does seem to be one of a number of Christians (perhaps not what you would call them) I have met however who have misgivings about the Trinity as a doctrine that can be seen clearly articulated in the New Testament...not arguing that Jesus is divine, but that he is God incarnate or coequal etc. Some of these people have already made up their minds before they start to study in depth, but that’s hardly unusual either. These are people who are attracted to a certain strand in Mormonism, or to the past opponents of the Church. Sometimes I just say to them that they are plain heretics...but that’s a phenomenon that all Protestant movements have to cope with, once dogmatic church teachings was abandoned and the sole guide to faith became one’s personal interaction with scripture. (Src: personal email correspondence, Nov. 19, 2009)

LOLz - you do realize that this professor who you claim holds fast to the teachings of scripture is a secular, homosexual jew? While I enjoyed the classes I took with him on Judaism and such, he is hardly a good resource on Christian Theology.



Csuguy is very entrenched in his position. He proclaims it at every opportunity, and demonstrates he is not really open to correction, despite his own claims that he is just trying to learn. Indeed, his posts have no epistemic humility, rather he asserts much and seeks to establish himself as a teacher to correct all the so-called "man-made doctrines of the Trinity". Csuguy has made God the Son into a secondary emission of the essence of God. A kind of superman or lesser God, one not fully divine, very God of very God. In effect, csuguy makes our Lord out to be a liar or a lunatic.

AMR

I'm no more entrenched in my position than any of you are on the Trinity. I started as a Trinitarian, my current beliefs are the result of years of study on the matter. I'm open to discussing these things - but, no, I'm not going to simply abandon my beliefs because someone asserts I'm wrong. To convince me that I'm wrong you will need to truly and honestly debate these matters - and not act bigoted by asserting that because I'm a non-trinitarian I must have been indoctrinated and such non-sense. You must honestly address the points and scriptures I present instead of ignoring and dismissing them. And you must honestly consider my rebuttals to your points.

But you all don't want honest discussion - you want to assert your authority and demand that I just follow what you say. That won't convince anyone.

Lon
April 9th, 2016, 07:24 PM
I don't have any trouble with John 1:1 or John 20:28. I addressed in my previous post the matter of Jesus being called "God." It is not unique for someone other than God Almighty to be called/addressed as God. Examples include angels sent by God, men sent by God (as with Moses), as well as those who have recieved the Word of God.
John 10:34-36 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

So I have no problem accepting that Jesus is called God by the scriptures; there is precendent for those who are clearly not God Almighty being called "God." And not in the sense of being false-gods, but in the sense of being God's representatives and God's people, his children. If it can be applied to us, who are imperfect and who have been adopted as God's sons and daughters - how much more so God's only begotten Son?

Trinitarians, however, have no good means of addressing the scriptures which clearly and repeatedly differentiate Jesus, the Son, from God. Hence you have refused to even attempt to address the passage I presented from 1 Cor 15 - because the Trinitarians have no good answer for such verses. No on both counts. You are a twenty-something arrogant self-willed child. On both counts. Dolly the first sheep is the mother of the second sheep but the second sheep is all Dolly. Again, that you cannot fathom that? More than obvious. Off to your shallow arian retreat. :wave:




Not only do I have a degree in Religious Studies myself, but I am the son of pastor, and I have put in enormous amounts of study into these issues far beyond anything that any of these colleges would require of an undergraduate student. So you are certainly no more qualified than I to speak on these matters - especially when you are so confident in yourself that you simply dismiss all the facts that contradict you, saying "there is no need" No you certainly have not you arrogant puff of hot air. You are only 20-ish. You haven't even been alive as long as most have studied, you young arrogant child.


I was never brain washed into rejecting the Trinity. I never even attended a church that rejected it. Rather, my rejection came as a direct result of studying it so that I could defend it. Growing up, I primarily attended the Church of the Nazarene (http://nazarene.org/) and was taught fairly typical interpretations of the scriptures, including the Trinity. I never desired to give up the Trinity, and I wasn't indoctrinated into rejecting it as you blindly assert. Rather my rejection of the Trinity was the natural result of studying first the scriptures and then the writings of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers. Er, it is called rationalizing, CS. Thomas bowed down and "said to Jesus (you) are the Lord of me and God of me!" You will NEVER be able to erase triune scriptures and are foolish to try. Again, the trinity is the default position, neither going so far as rationalizing Arianism nor rationalizing modalism. The Trinitarian position is the one in the middle saying "Yes arians, I see your scriptures but won't deny other scriptures," and "Yes modalists, I see your scriptures, but will not deny other scriptures and see both of your problem at rationalizing the texts beyond what they allow and going further than simply seeing three mentioned as God, but knowing per fact there is only one God." The rest of you, and especially you, CS, go beyond scripture. You aren't wrestling against Trinitarian doctrine, we are the least refined, simply taking scripture at its word and believing what we read. You and the modalists rationalize and destroy plain readings of scripture to suit your fancy rather than God's. And yes, you are incredibly arrogant about it. 99% of Christendom disagrees with you and a good many of us have studied incredibly longer than your ten years at most. :Plain:



And? These don't address the issue of what it means for them to be 'one.'
Yes they do. In the beginning God created the Heavens and the earth. Colossians then, says Jesus is God. You have to fancy dance to come up with God not actually creating, yet Genesis saying He did. As AMR said, it is calling God a liar.


Simply listing a bunch of scriptures is not sufficient to make an argument. We both know the scriptures, you aren't going to find one that I haven't considered on this topic such that simply quoting/referencing it is going to surprise me and cause me to rethink you position. I accept all these scriptures without any problem. You will need to take the time to truly respond to my points and to truly expand upon such scriptural references to form your arguments and rebuttals. If you can't do this then the conversation can't move forward.There you go, you just lied to AMR:

I'm open to discussing these things ... To convince me that I'm wrong you will need to truly and honestly debate these matters

And you must honestly consider my rebuttals to your points.

But you all don't want honest discussion - you want to assert your authority and demand that I just follow what you say. That won't convince anyone.
You aren't at all open. The triune view is 'less' assertive than the Arian position. Your rejection of it is merely against other scriptures AND a dismissal of verses Trinitarians say should not be dismissed. You can't read Hebrew and Greek. You have barely been alive long enough to have even studied this matter in great depth. You are a young little kid who is arrogant and extremely self-willed.


The passage clearly differentiates the Son, who is here addressed as "God", from "Your God" - God Almighty. And I'm not a unitarian; I don't belong to any particular denomination.Yep, hence the :doh: You 'shouldn't' be as arrogant as you want to think you are. And yes, you are well within Arian/Unitarian confines.


And this quote demonstrates your problem: you don't bother to study these scriptures in context to learn what is actually being taught. You are here quoting the foolish jews who lacked understanding and were persecuting Christ. How did Christ reply?
1) There are many commentaries by men much older, with PhD's and language skills, well beyond your prowess that claim exactly this, so no, your 20 years of arrogant assertions don't mean a whit. You are a child. AND arrogant.
2) I am older than you and have studied this longer than you. All of Christendom BUT the 1% of cults disagrees with you, including those incredibly better at this than you will ever be. You talk about us asserting or trying to force. I really wish you'd look in the mirror, kid. Look at the arrogance in this post. You probably can't see it. Cultists are just as audacious as this. I will have to pray for you. Only God can bust a hard-heart or correct a hard-head.


John 10:31-39 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” 34 Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may [f]know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” 39 Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp.
So Jesus did not deny He was God, but CSGuy, oddly does :think:
When am I supposed to bow to you and pray to you, Cs?

So, yes, we are called 'gods' by scripture. Despite this, Jesus never called himself God but always the Son of God, as he does here.He said not only was the Father in Him, but that "He was in the Father."


The least developed view? Your kidding, right? :nono:
They spent hundreds of years developing it, they waged large-scale political wars over it, they persecuted their fellow Christians over it.
Er, to combat heresy. There was no need to work at it this hard until heretics started tromping over other scriptures in their combat boots.
Almost the entirety of the fourth century was consumed by this debate. It is non-sense to call the Trinity the 'least' developed view. Least scriptural perhaps. Rather, the Trinitarians have had to develop an entirely new vocabulary and numerous back-stories for the scriptures so as to force the scriptures to read how they want them too. Despite this, it is still an illogical doctrine that doesn't mesh with the scriptures - and so they further defend it by calling it a "mystery" that "you would understand if you TRULY believed." Rhetorical non-sense. I really don't care what a foolish kid like yourself thinks. There is the heresy of modalism and the Arian heresy, with the Triune view smack dab in the middle carefully seeking to avoid both heresies. You call modalism a heresy. They call you one too. We are right in the middle and holding tenaciously to all scriptures.


Way to fail Lon! The cloned sheep does not exist in two different bodies; There are two distinct bodies - the original, and the clone. The clone may have been created from the original, but it is its own body and being entirely. Like twins - they may look the same, but they are distinct persons with distinct bodies. Nor did the clone exist as long as the original existed - our cells are constantly dying and being replaced, every single cell in the body. :nono: The second isn't taken from Dolly's mother and father, it is wholly from that one sheep's body. Regardless if your prof was a Jew or a sinner, he could see arrogance and pride and correctly diagnose it. That boy is you. You are wrong here and are too arrogant and prideful to ever admit it to your elders and/or betters. Sad, but you are incredibly self-willed and arrogant, CS.


As for Jesus being given all power and authority - by saying he was given it infers that he did not have it to begin with. It's not his power and authority by nature - it is God's. And, ultimately, Jesus will be subjected to God, once all enemies have been defeated (1 Cor 15) It doesn't matter if He was given it. Again, as said in analogy, the first Dolly is able to do for the second Dolly. You failed on grasping truths from that analogy so I don't expect you to get this either.


First off, my studies have far exceeded anything they taught me at the university.
You say a LOT of naïve things and display a shallow understanding of how far 20-some years on the planet will take you. You will one day remember me saying this because it will bug you until you finally get to see I was right: You are a kid.


Most of what I learned from them had little directly to do with Christianity. Rather I took a lot of classes on other religions like Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, etc. And I was taught these classes by Rabbis, Jews, Buddhists, etc. such that each class was typically taught by a practitioner of the religion in question. Something you wouldn't get at a purely Christian University - and something very important for anyone who seriously wants to evangelize. It is not enough to understand your own beliefs, you must understand what others believe - where they are coming from. It also reinforces the divide between Christianity and other religions - you learn just how different these other religions are. Having attended both secular universities and a Christian seminary, I am very confident to tell you that you are arrogantly wrong and misinformed.


Going to a Christian University doesn't lend you any advantages or authority when discussing theology.
:doh: I disagree and for obvious reasons probably to all but you.

Most Christian Universities have a well-defined belief set such that you aren't going there to truly study theology, but to learn how to present and defend their particular belief set.
You've never been to one. You 'preach' a lot about stuff you haven't much clue about. It is why I also hold most of your theology suspect as well. You are much too young and inexperienced in your few short years living on this planet to have the kind of prowess or authority you think you have.

Not to say all Christian Universities or Seminaries are like this - but most of them are.
1) I don't think you actually know this and 2) you've no idea which one I attended.

However, even if we assume you went to a top of the line Christian University/Seminary that truly studied these isues - it still wouldn't in of itself lend you any credibility or authority. All that matters is that you can honestly study these matters and can present well-founded arguments, while honestly responding to the critiques and positions of your theological opponent. You won't convince anyone by appealing to authority. In this case, you aren't a minority, you are an incredibly small and almost non-existent minority. I know the IQ's, education, and mental prowess of my professors. The language professors have repeatedly said if you can fluently read the languages, there is no doubt that God is triune. They are listed in probably 3 of the English Bible translations you own.
Yeah, you aren't ever going to have that kind of prowess under your belt Cs.

You blindly assert that my views haven't changed since I was 19 - but this just demonstrates your ignorance of me and my studies. I had started to question the Trinity by then, but I didn't have any real answers. That's why I spent my undergraduate years really diving into the matter, studying the writings of the Ante-Nicene Church Fathers and various other works on the Trinity and the Early Church. With regards the Trinity and other matters, my theological understanding between then and now is entirely different.
Er, no. That is why your professor said you came in the same way you left.


Not that I expect this to change your mind of me or others - you have a bigotry towards any non-trinitarian and like to claim they must have been indoctrinated by a cult or some such thing. I've no idea what indoctrinated you. You wound up an Unitarian just the same.


Interpretation: "I hate those who don't agree with me, I'm going to assert a bunch of non-sense about them to justify my hate."
Whatever lets you sleep at night, cs.


I called the block of text where you asserted things like this non-sense: "Unitarians generally do not at all esteem the Son nor hear Him standing at the door to knock and indwell where He will sup with they, and they Him. You lose a ton by dismissing John 20:18. You live without His supernatural indwelling in your lives and you treat Him as a second-rate citizen as portrayed above" Er, you don't. If He is God (and He is) and you logic your way to demoting Him in your lives, guess what?


I did not assert that the new-creation or indwelling of the HS was non-sense. But I guess this is about the level of intellectually dishonesty I have come to expect from you, so no surprises here.
Is it. or just a defense mechanism? You said it, I didn't. Be clear and less sloppy. This one is all on you.

keypurr
April 9th, 2016, 08:22 PM
Csuguy, your wisdom level is high. You understand what the scriptures are saying. Lon will never see the content of God's words. The spirit in him is not from the Father. He has no idea who the Lord is. You, my friend, do. I am not a kid, I have been seeking his truth for over seventy years, Lon has a lot to learn. He thinks he can get to truth by waving his degrees. He should take the advice I gave him a few years back when I told him to ask for his college money back. He just missed the boat. Your seeking has paid off friend, you understand that Christ has a God and that there is only one true God. Lon can not see that, or he refuses to see that. I think he is sincere in his thoughts, but his thoughts are not truth.

Keep up the good work Csuguy, I believe God has enlighten you with much wisdom.

Blessings

keypurr
April 9th, 2016, 08:30 PM
csuguy may I suggest that you get and explore the Aramaic English New Testament. the one you can find here.

www.aent.org

It has many notes about the Hebrew culture that you will find very interesting. This translation seem more accurate that the Greek to English Translations. It will cost you forty bucks but the information in it is priceless.

God bless.

keypurr
April 9th, 2016, 08:35 PM
Lon, I have posted this before, you might have missed it os I will post it again.

ARAMAIC ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT

YOCHANAN (JOHN)
Chapter 1
1. In the beginning was the Miltha. And that Miltha was with Elohim. And Elohim was that Miltha.
2. This was with Elohim in the beginning.
3. Everything existed through his hands……….

Miltha refers to the “Manifestation” of the Ruach haKodesh within Mashiyach. The physical body of Mashiyach is not the Word of YHWH, but his words and actions demonstrate the Will and Word of YHWH, which upholds observance of Torah.

Miltha is the spiritual son of Elohim (God).
Mashiyach refers to Messiah Y’shua (Jesus Christ)
YHWH is the name of the most high God.
Ruach haKodesh is the Holy Spirit.
Elohim is God or a god, it can refer to more than the creator.

Think about these words and ask the Lord for understanding of John 1.

Ask Mr. Religion
April 9th, 2016, 09:10 PM
First off, my studies have far exceeded anything they taught me at the university.


http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?63037-toldailytopic-The-Holy-Trinity/page5&p=2232356#post2232356

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?63037-toldailytopic-The-Holy-Trinity&p=2232197&viewfull=1#post2232197

I have said it often. Once one denies the Triune Godhead, all manner of error follows:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?115142-Why-would-God-need-a-hell&p=4605258&viewfull=1#post4605258

AMR

keypurr
April 9th, 2016, 09:22 PM
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?63037-toldailytopic-The-Holy-Trinity/page5&p=2232356#post2232356

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?63037-toldailytopic-The-Holy-Trinity&p=2232197&viewfull=1#post2232197

I have said it often. Once one denies the Triune Godhead, all manner of error follows:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?115142-Why-would-God-need-a-hell&p=4605258&viewfull=1#post4605258

AMR

Your in the same sinking boat as Lon.

Neither of you really know God or the Lord who was appointed by God.

1Mind1Spirit
April 9th, 2016, 10:03 PM
Your in the same sinking boat as Lon.


It's definitely got a hole in it.


Neither of you really know God or the Lord who was appointed by God.

They know them a little bit.

However they both stopped seeking at the well long ago. :sigh:

patrick jane
April 9th, 2016, 10:08 PM
It's definitely got a hole in it.



They know them a little bit.

However they both stopped seeking at the well long ago. :sigh:
There's one little head one big spirit :wave2:

csuguy
April 9th, 2016, 11:23 PM
csuguy may I suggest that you get and explore the Aramaic English New Testament. the one you can find here.

www.aent.org

It has many notes about the Hebrew culture that you will find very interesting. This translation seem more accurate that the Greek to English Translations. It will cost you forty bucks but the information in it is priceless.

God bless.

I will check it out - thanks. It will probably be a little while before I can really dive into any additional studies, however, as I am busy finishing up my last semester of my Masters in Computer Science.

csuguy
April 9th, 2016, 11:38 PM
Lon - you apparently can't handle logical, scripturally based arguments. You've fallen back into your old habit of simply dismissing your opponent and attempting to assert authority - which will convince no-one.

*sigh*

I'm not going to accept your personal authority, nor the asserted authority of this or that theologian that you like - I only accept well reasoned arguments. You, however, refuse to give well reasoned arguments - once you are questioned you make appeals to authority; a logical fallacy. Unfortunately until you understand that your appeals to authority are fallacious this conversation cannot continue in any kind of productive manner.

You also need to learn some basic biology before you start speaking about clones - because you are making some empirically false claims about Dolly & company.

csuguy
April 9th, 2016, 11:41 PM
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?63037-toldailytopic-The-Holy-Trinity/page5&p=2232356#post2232356

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?63037-toldailytopic-The-Holy-Trinity&p=2232197&viewfull=1#post2232197

I have said it often. Once one denies the Triune Godhead, all manner of error follows:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?115142-Why-would-God-need-a-hell&p=4605258&viewfull=1#post4605258

AMR

Those are some good posts I made - thanks for sharing! :)

keypurr
April 10th, 2016, 12:15 PM
I will check it out - thanks. It will probably be a little while before I can really dive into any additional studies, however, as I am busy finishing up my last semester of my Masters in Computer Science.

I think you will love this translation and the note in this edition. Its an eye opener.

Bright Raven
April 10th, 2016, 09:40 PM
I think you will love this translation and the note in this edition. Its an eye opener.

Whether in Aramaic or English the truth is the truth.

John 1:1 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Word Made Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

You are still blind and lost in the sin of unbelief.

patrick jane
April 10th, 2016, 10:51 PM
I think you will love this translation and the note in this edition. Its an eye opener.
Yeah, just keep looking at all other translations until you find some that say Jesus is not God. You're a trinity believer now, that's great.

keypurr
April 11th, 2016, 09:56 PM
Whether in Aramaic or English the truth is the truth.

John 1:1 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Word Made Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

You are still blind and lost in the sin of unbelief.

BR, you will not get all the truth from a Greek to English translation for the Greek itself has distorted the true meaning of the Hebrew and Aramaic originals. No stone should be left unturned in seeking his truth. I have 30+ Greek to English translations that differ in many ways. John 1 is a great example of how the words of God were misunderstood by he Greek translators.

I bet all your life you just believed what you were taught in Sunday school, you most likely never question the wisdom of your Pastors, or educated folks. But the truth is knowledge of God comes from God to those who care enough to seek him in spirit. What you have learned is only the tip of the iceberg.

I know your sincere friend, you love our God as much as I do. But you really do not know him or his son.

keypurr
April 11th, 2016, 09:58 PM
Yeah, just keep looking at all other translations until you find some that say Jesus is not God. You're a trinity believer now, that's great.

There is not a Trinity God Patrick.

Only the Father is the true God.

Notaclue
April 12th, 2016, 02:03 AM
Gal.3:16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

which is Christ.

Who did God promise? The Son of God, or God the Son?

Bright Raven
April 12th, 2016, 04:38 PM
BR, you will not get all the truth from a Greek to English translation for the Greek itself has distorted the true meaning of the Hebrew and Aramaic originals. No stone should be left unturned in seeking his truth. I have 30+ Greek to English translations that differ in many ways. John 1 is a great example of how the words of God were misunderstood by he Greek translators.

I bet all your life you just believed what you were taught in Sunday school, you most likely never question the wisdom of your Pastors, or educated folks. But the truth is knowledge of God comes from God to those who care enough to seek him in spirit. What you have learned is only the tip of the iceberg.

I know your sincere friend, you love our God as much as I do. But you really do not know him or his son.

I also have many copies of the scriptures plus those available on the internet. I believe the easiest to understand are the word for word translations such as the NASB.
Ah, my friend, How little you know about me. I have two certificates of biblical studies, one from Fountaingate Bible College the other from the Pillar of Truth Bible Institute and am studying for a certificate of Christian Theology With the Institute of Biblical Defense. In doing so I have been able to think for myself and question the meaning of the scriptures for some time now. However, learning is not that which we learn from the head but what we learn from the heart. Have you come to know that friend? I think not since you still come to believe that Jesus was merely a man, a learned teacher and nothing more. Come to see Him as the Son of God friend and your life will be fulfilled. I think it unfair for you to judge whether or not I know God. He knows. When you come to know the truth, the truth will set you free.

Ask Mr. Religion
April 12th, 2016, 05:08 PM
John 1 is a great example of how the words of God were misunderstood by he Greek translators.
No. John's epistles are the easiest of all the NT books to translate for the student of Greek. If you are taking formal courses in Biblical Greek invariably one the three will be assigned as a study project for translation.

http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?3146-Bible-Trivia-and-Other-Interesting-Facts

AMR

jamie
April 12th, 2016, 05:12 PM
Who did God promise? The Son of God, or God the Son?


Christ was not the Son of God until he became the Son of Man by being born of woman. At his resurrection the Son of God became God the Son.

jamie
April 12th, 2016, 05:20 PM
BR, you will not get all the truth from a Greek to English translation for the Greek itself has distorted the true meaning of the Hebrew and Aramaic originals. No stone should be left unturned in seeking his truth. I have 30+ Greek to English translations that differ in many ways. John 1 is a great example of how the words of God were misunderstood by he Greek translators.


At least in the first part of John 1 I see no difference. For example:


In the beginning there was The Miltha {The Word}, and He, The Miltha {The Word}, was with Alaha {God}. And Alaha {God} Himself was The Miltha {The Word}. This One was existing in the beginning with Alaha {God}. All came to be by His Hand {i.e. by His Power}, and without Him, not even one thing came to be, which has come to be. (John 1:1-3)

And The Miltha {The Word} became flesh {i.e. a Human Being} and pitched His tent {lit. tabernacled/sheltered} among us, and we saw His Glory, Glory as of The Only-Begotten {lit. The One} who is from Aba {The Father}, who is full of Taybutha {Grace} and Qushtha {Truth}.
(John 1:14)

keypurr
April 12th, 2016, 10:33 PM
At least in the first part of John 1 I see no difference. For example:


In the beginning there was The Miltha {The Word}, and He, The Miltha {The Word}, was with Alaha {God}. And Alaha {God} Himself was The Miltha {The Word}. This One was existing in the beginning with Alaha {God}. All came to be by His Hand {i.e. by His Power}, and without Him, not even one thing came to be, which has come to be. (John 1:1-3)

And The Miltha {The Word} became flesh {i.e. a Human Being} and pitched His tent {lit. tabernacled/sheltered} among us, and we saw His Glory, Glory as of The Only-Begotten {lit. The One} who is from Aba {The Father}, who is full of Taybutha {Grace} and Qushtha {Truth}.
(John 1:14)

Notes from the book:

Miltha refers to the "Manifestation" of the Rauch haKodesh within Mashiyach.The physical body of Mashiyach is not the Word of YHWH, but his words and actions demonstrate the Will and Word of YHWH, which upholds observance of Torah.

keypurr
April 12th, 2016, 10:40 PM
Christ was not the Son of God until he became the Son of Man by being born of woman. At his resurrection the Son of God became God the Son.

I disagree, God did not use a man to create the Universe.

Only the son of man came down from heaven, that would be the spirit son, not Jesus.

keypurr
April 12th, 2016, 10:50 PM
No. John's epistles are the easiest of all the NT books to translate for the student of Greek. If you are taking formal courses in Biblical Greek invariably one the three will be assigned as a study project for translation.

http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?3146-Bible-Trivia-and-Other-Interesting-Facts

AMR

I just an old man trying to learn a little about Hebrew and Aramaic.

1Mind1Spirit
April 12th, 2016, 11:16 PM
Christ was not the Son of God until he became the Son of Man by being born of woman.

Wrong Jaimie.

Daniel 3:25
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.


At his resurrection the Son of God became God the Son.

No, that's when God made him Lord and Christ.

1Mind1Spirit
April 12th, 2016, 11:23 PM
No. John's epistles are the easiest of all the NT books to translate for the student of Greek. If you are taking formal courses in Biblical Greek invariably one the three will be assigned as a study project for translation.

http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?3146-Bible-Trivia-and-Other-Interesting-Facts

AMR

Asserted by one, who like Simon the sorcerer, thought the gift of God could be purchased with money.

:hammer:

jamie
April 13th, 2016, 04:41 AM
Only the son of man came down from heaven, that would be the spirit son, not Jesus.


There was no Son of Man until Jesus was born of woman. The Son of Man was the Son of God and at his resurrection became God the Son.


And Alaha {God} Himself was The Miltha {The Word}. This One was existing in the beginning with Alaha {God}.

All came to be by His Hand {i.e. by His Power}, and without Him, not even one thing came to be, which has come to be.

The Miltha existed in the beginning with Alaha and the Miltha created everything that came to be according to the Aramaic translation.

jamie
April 13th, 2016, 04:47 AM
Wrong Jamie.

Daniel 3:25
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.


...and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

The word "like" means to resemble and is descriptive. Like is not used as a verb in this passage. The verb would have been is.

1Mind1Spirit
April 13th, 2016, 10:31 AM
...and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

The word "like" means to resemble and is descriptive. Like is not used as a verb in this passage. The verb would have been is.

The fourth was a man, context Jaimie, context.

jamie
April 13th, 2016, 11:48 AM
The fourth was a man, context Jaimie, context.


So is Jesus. He is a man who became God at his resurrection. No big deal.

Bright Raven
April 13th, 2016, 01:01 PM
So is Jesus. He is a man who became God at his resurrection. No big deal.

He was God before the resurrection;

John 8:58 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

jamie
April 13th, 2016, 02:16 PM
He was God before the resurrection;


He was God, but he was no one's Son because he had not yet been born. He only spent about 33 years as a human being. Now he is a God being and the firstborn from the dead of the rest of the firstborn pictured by the wheat harvest of Pentecost. The faux wheat will not be born of the Spirit at this time.

Bright Raven
April 13th, 2016, 04:21 PM
He was God, but he was no one's Son because he had not yet been born. He only spent about 33 years as a human being. Now he is a God being and the firstborn from the dead of the rest of the firstborn pictured by the wheat harvest of Pentecost. The faux wheat will not be born of the Spirit at this time.

John 1:1, 14 tell it all.

Notaclue
April 13th, 2016, 08:27 PM
My question

Notaclue
April 13th, 2016, 08:29 PM
My question was who did God Promise?

jamie
April 13th, 2016, 09:26 PM
My question was who did God Promise?


Paul said, "Now to Abraham and his Seed (Christ) were the promises made." (Galatians 3:16)

keypurr
April 14th, 2016, 10:09 PM
There was no Son of Man until Jesus was born of woman. The Son of Man was the Son of God and at his resurrection became God the Son.


And Alaha {God} Himself was The Miltha {The Word}. This One was existing in the beginning with Alaha {God}.

All came to be by His Hand {i.e. by His Power}, and without Him, not even one thing came to be, which has come to be.

The Miltha existed in the beginning with Alaha and the Miltha created everything that came to be according to the Aramaic translation.

God created everything through the Miltha. (Christ)

jamie
April 15th, 2016, 08:10 AM
God created everything through the Miltha. (Christ)


"And without him not even one thing came to be, which has come to be."

"And Alaha {God} Himself was The Miltha {The Word}. This One was existing in the beginning with Alaha {God}."

In the beginning was the Word was with God and the Word was God. So who is the Word?


He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. (Revelation 19:13)

1Mind1Spirit
April 15th, 2016, 11:35 AM
He was God, but he was no one's Son because he had not yet been born. He only spent about 33 years as a human being. Now he is a God being and the firstborn from the dead of the rest of the firstborn pictured by the wheat harvest of Pentecost. The faux wheat will not be born of the Spirit at this time.

So God is a no one?