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Robert Pate
March 8th, 2016, 03:48 PM
God's law is the criteria for the human race. If you violate God's law there is a penalty that you must pay. "The wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23. Spiritual death, which means eternal separation from God. Paul said that the whole world stands guilty before God, Romans 3:19, and then he said, "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3:23.

We all stand guilty in God's court of law.

How then can we be saved? The first thing that we need to do is to plead guilty. If you claim to be innocent then you will be tried according to God's law and found to be a sinner and condemned, because there is none righteous, no, not one, Romans 3:10.

If you plead guilty the court can now show you mercy. "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3:9. Repentance is part of your plea deal, no repentance no pardon. You will be required to show remorse for breaking God's Holy Law.

You are not off of the hook yet. God's court requires that someone who is not a sinner atone for your sins. There is a penalty for your sins that must be paid. The only one in God's court that is without sin is Jesus Christ, who has atoned not only for your sins, but the sins of the whole world,1 John 2:2. You must receive Christ's atonement for your sins or you will not be pardoned.

You are still not off of the hook. Restitution must be made for violating God's Holy Law. Someone who is without sin must restore God's broken law. They must do this in your name and on your behalf, just like you did it yourself. God's court has appointed Jesus Christ to do this for you, Colossians 2:14.

Because of what Jesus Christ has done for you, you can now stand before God's court as justified. God must see you as perfect and complete in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 2:10. When God sees you in Jesus Christ you will receive a full pardon and will now be welcomed into heaven and eternal life.

Robert Pate
March 11th, 2016, 09:38 AM
Predestinationism is illegal.

God cannot appoint some one to eternal if they have not been justified by Jesus Christ.

To be justified by Jesus Christ means that you must call on Christ to save you.

Many Calvinist have never called on Christ to save them because they believe that they have been predestinated.

Bradley D
March 11th, 2016, 11:20 PM
However, the word predestined is in the Bible and has to be dealt with. What is your interpretation? To ignore it solves nothing.

"he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--" (Eph. 1:5)

Totton Linnet
March 11th, 2016, 11:24 PM
However, the word predestined is in the Bible and has to be dealt with. What is your interpretation? To ignore it solves nothing.

"he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--" (Eph. 1:5)

Good for you

Robert Pate
March 12th, 2016, 08:57 AM
However, the word predestined is in the Bible and has to be dealt with. What is your interpretation? To ignore it solves nothing.

"he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--" (Eph. 1:5)

I don't have a problem with the word pedestination.

There is no scripture that says anyone has been predestinated to heaven or to hell.

Bradley D
March 12th, 2016, 11:39 PM
I agree. I believe God's purpose for the creation and us on earth was predestined. However, the fall of Adam and Eve through free will had interrupted God's purpose. That purpose will be fulfilled. In the OT God set up the holy nation of Israel. But they failed. But the elect of the OT the "chosen people" had an extended scope. The elect now embraces Christian believers as well. "God has ordained (decreed) everything in salvation history with Christ as the goal" (TDNT). It was Christ who was predestined (Acts 2:23).

To try to say the God predestined people to heaven or hell is a very narrow view. It is wearing blinders/ignoring the rest of scripture. It does not include the scripture, such as the well known John 3:16, that opens it's arms to all who would believe.

chair
March 13th, 2016, 01:53 AM
God's law is the criteria for the human race. If you violate God's law there is a penalty that you must pay. "The wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23. ...

Has it never occurred to you that all these proofs of God's Law resulting in death come from the New testament? That God never said anything of the sort when He gave the Law? You don't notice anything strange about that?

Robert Pate
March 14th, 2016, 02:14 PM
Has it never occurred to you that all these proofs of God's Law resulting in death come from the New testament? That God never said anything of the sort when He gave the Law? You don't notice anything strange about that?

The New Testament changed everything.

The law was given to Israel as a keeper until Christ arrived.

Now, Christians are no longer kept by the law. They are kept by the Holy Spirit.

jamie
March 14th, 2016, 04:01 PM
Now, Christians are no longer kept by the law. They are kept by the Holy Spirit.


When Christ brought his people out of Egypt were they not kept by the Holy Spirit?


But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; so He turned Himself against them as an enemy and He fought against them. Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people saying: "Where is He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them"? (Isaiah 63:10-11)

Robert Pate
March 14th, 2016, 04:39 PM
When Christ brought his people out of Egypt were they not kept by the Holy Spirit?


But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; so He turned Himself against them as an enemy and He fought against them. Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people saying: "Where is He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit within them"? (Isaiah 63:10-11)

If they had the Holy Spirit they didn't have it for long. They were a bunch of rebels.

Crucible
March 14th, 2016, 04:42 PM
Predestinationism is illegal.

God cannot appoint some one to eternal if they have not been justified by Jesus Christ.

To be justified by Jesus Christ means that you must call on Christ to save you.

Many Calvinist have never called on Christ to save them because they believe that they have been predestinated.

The weakest part of the free will argument is right there in the red, because it means that you essentially save yourself and all Christ did was make it a bit easier for you :rolleyes:

Your free will in such theologies IS God- it trumps Providence, it determines salvation; it has more power than Christ himself.

Robert Pate
March 15th, 2016, 12:52 PM
The weakest part of the free will argument is right there in the red, because it means that you essentially save yourself and all Christ did was make it a bit easier for you :rolleyes:

Your free will in such theologies IS God- it trumps Providence, it determines salvation; it has more power than Christ himself.



If You were drowning would you not call on someone to save you?

Ktoyou
March 15th, 2016, 01:01 PM
I agree. I believe God's purpose for the creation and us on earth was predestined. However, the fall of Adam and Eve through free will had interrupted God's purpose. That purpose will be fulfilled. In the OT God set up the holy nation of Israel. But they failed. But the elect of the OT the "chosen people" had an extended scope. The elect now embraces Christian believers as well. "God has ordained (decreed) everything in salvation history with Christ as the goal" (TDNT). It was Christ who was predestined (Acts 2:23).

To try to say the God predestined people to heaven or hell is a very narrow view. It is wearing blinders/ignoring the rest of scripture. It does not include the scripture, such as the well known John 3:16, that opens it's arms to all who would believe.
You mixed up the two: salvation for Israel is though a second reckoning. For the Body of Christ, salvation is though Christ, faith in Christ.

Nick M
March 15th, 2016, 01:28 PM
The legal aspect is that this here goat was set free and my sin laid upon another.

Robert Pate
March 16th, 2016, 12:33 PM
The legal aspect is that this here goat was set free and my sin laid upon another.

And that goat was slain, because he who knew no sin became sin for us, 2 Corinthians 5:21.

jamie
March 16th, 2016, 12:44 PM
Predestinationism is illegal.


Make up your mind, how can something be illegal if there is no law as you say?

Robert Pate
March 17th, 2016, 08:09 AM
Make up your mind, how can something be illegal if there is no law as you say?

We are subject to man's law and God's law as long as we are here in the flesh.

Spiritually, Christians are free from the God's law.

Calvinism, Catholicism, all religions are illegal. They are not according to the Gospel and justification by faith.

jamie
March 17th, 2016, 08:20 AM
We are subject to man's law and God's law as long as we are here in the flesh.


If God said to remember the seventh day of the week to keep it set apart from the other six days, would you do it?

jamie
March 17th, 2016, 08:24 AM
Spiritually, Christians are free from the God's law.


Is that what Jesus said? (Matthew 5:22)

Robert Pate
March 18th, 2016, 09:22 AM
If God said to remember the seventh day of the week to keep it set apart from the other six days, would you do it?

Nope!

I am not under the law, nor do I live by it. The law has been abolished for the Christian, Ephesians 2:15.

Robert Pate
March 18th, 2016, 09:24 AM
Is that what Jesus said? (Matthew 5:22)

Jesus taught the law to show you that you are a sinner.

jamie
March 18th, 2016, 12:41 PM
The law has been abolished for the Christian, Ephesians 2:15.


By whose authority?

Robert Pate
March 18th, 2016, 12:48 PM
By whose authority?

God. While Jesus was dying on the cross God tore the veil that covered the Holy of Holies on the temple from the top to the bottom. This signified the end of the old Covenant, the law and the Jewish religion, Matthew 27:51. From now on, "THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH" Romans 1:17 and not by laws, rules or religion.

andyc
March 18th, 2016, 01:46 PM
Predestinationism is illegal.

God cannot appoint some one to eternal if they have not been justified by Jesus Christ.

To be justified by Jesus Christ means that you must call on Christ to save you.

Many Calvinist have never called on Christ to save them because they believe that they have been predestinated.

Not sure why you responded to your own post, which was very good btw, with a swipe at Calvinism.
I'm wondering if you'd be able to explain how to do an oil change without mentioning Calvin?

jamie
March 18th, 2016, 03:15 PM
This signified the end of the old Covenant, the law and the Jewish religion, Matthew 27:51.


The NT church of God lives by the same covenant as Jacob's people. God's law has changed but the covenant hasn't.

Robert Pate
March 18th, 2016, 07:14 PM
The NT church of God lives by the same covenant as Jacob's people. God's law has changed but the covenant hasn't.

Jesus is the New Covenant. The Old Covenant as been abolished, Hebrews 8:6-13.

jamie
March 18th, 2016, 08:38 PM
The Old Covenant as been abolished, Hebrews 8:6-13.


Who wrote the so-called "old" covenant with his own finger, not once but twice?

Robert Pate
March 19th, 2016, 04:13 PM
Who wrote the so-called "old" covenant with his own finger, not once but twice?

It doesn't matter who wrote it, it has been abolished, Hebrews 8:13.

I like the New Covenant much better, Hebrews 8:12.

jamie
March 19th, 2016, 04:20 PM
It doesn't matter who wrote it, it has been abolished, Hebrews 8:13.


Abolished by whom?

Robert Pate
March 21st, 2016, 08:27 AM
Abolished by whom?


Jesus abolished the Old Covenant the law and the Jewish religion. This is why... "The Just Shall Live By Faith" and not by rules, laws or religion.

"Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in the ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace, Ephesians 2:15.

I don't understand why people don't understand this. To be under the law or subject to the law is to be under the wrath of God.

jamie
March 21st, 2016, 08:49 AM
Jesus abolished the Old Covenant...


Impossible ... it isn't his covenant, it is the covenant of our Father.

Paul said, "Brethren, I speak in the manner of men, though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it." (Galatians 3:15)

A man's covenant cannot be changed or annulled and certainly not God's covenant.

Robert Pate
March 21st, 2016, 02:11 PM
Impossible ... it isn't his covenant, it is the covenant of our Father.

Paul said, "Brethren, I speak in the manner of men, though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it." (Galatians 3:15)

A man's covenant cannot be changed or annulled and certainly not God's covenant.

Paul is talking about the New Covenant that was made to Abraham, Galatians 3:18.

The Old Covenant has been abolished along with the law, Hebrews 8:6, 7.

jamie
March 21st, 2016, 03:01 PM
The Old Covenant has been abolished along with the law, Hebrews 8:6, 7.



For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah... (Hebrews 8:7-8)

The covenant you are referring to is God's covenant with the Hebrews commonly referred to as the Mosaic covenant.

Robert Pate
March 21st, 2016, 04:26 PM
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah... (Hebrews 8:7-8)

The covenant you are referring to is God's covenant with the Hebrews commonly referred to as the Mosaic covenant.

The New Covenant is Jesus Christ and his Gospel. It is not a new set of rules and laws.

jamie
March 21st, 2016, 05:48 PM
The New Covenant is Jesus Christ and his Gospel. It is not a new set of rules and laws.


God said through Jeremiah, "Behold, the days are coming says," the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah..." (Jeremiah 31:31)


"But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days," says the LORD, "I will put My law in their minds and write it on their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people." (Jeremiah 31:33)

It's referred to as a new covenant because it is different from the Mosaic covenant.


"Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 31:32)

Robert Pate
March 23rd, 2016, 07:46 PM
God said through Jeremiah, "Behold, the days are coming says," the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah..." (Jeremiah 31:31)


"But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days," says the LORD, "I will put My law in their minds and write it on their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people." (Jeremiah 31:33)

It's referred to as a new covenant because it is different from the Mosaic covenant.


"Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 31:32)

The Old Covenant, the law and the Jewish religion have been abolished, Ephesians 2:15. Jesus Christ is the New Covenant. We are no longer required to live according to rules and laws. The law has been replaced by the Holy Spirit, Hebrews 8:10. To live by the law is to be judged by the law and condemned, Romans 3:19, 20.

TulipBee
March 24th, 2016, 04:40 AM
Legalism is not the solution to Pateism

TulipBee
March 24th, 2016, 04:43 AM
However, the word predestined is in the Bible and has to be dealt with. What is your interpretation? To ignore it solves nothing.

"he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--" (Eph. 1:5)
He is like a JW. He only accepts parts of the complete bible and reject others. The end result is a another new theology, Pateism. The trolls are his disciples.

Robert Pate
March 24th, 2016, 07:51 AM
He is like a JW. He only accepts parts of the complete bible and reject others. The end result is a another new theology, Pateism. The trolls are his disciples.

You are Gospel illiterate.

The Gospel is about Jesus Christ. You seem to think that the Gospel is about John Calvin.

I accept all of the Bible, not just some of the Bible that appears to support Calvinism, but doesn't.

TulipBee
March 24th, 2016, 07:54 AM
You are Gospel illiterate.

The Gospel is about Jesus Christ. You seem to think that the Gospel is about John Calvin.

I accept all of the Bible, not just some of the Bible that appears to support Calvinism, but doesn't.
The choosing still happens before the natural birth

Robert Pate
March 24th, 2016, 08:22 AM
The choosing still happens before the natural birth

If that were true, which it is not, then God is unjust.

Everyone has the chance to believe and be saved, just like everyone has the chance to reject.

TulipBee
March 24th, 2016, 10:48 AM
If that were true, which it is not, then God is unjust.

Everyone has the chance to believe and be saved, just like everyone has the chance to reject.
Reality doesn't run on its own

Robert Pate
March 25th, 2016, 08:15 AM
Reality doesn't run on its own

Truth is not found in a religion.

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man can come to the Father, but by me" John 14:6.

Nothing about John Calvin.

TulipBee
March 25th, 2016, 12:02 PM
Truth is not found in a religion.

Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man can come to the Father, but by me" John 14:6.

Nothing about John Calvin.
You existing IS reality !

Robert Pate
March 25th, 2016, 12:14 PM
You existing IS reality !

Reality is becoming aware that you are personally responsible to God for everything that you do or believe.

TulipBee
March 25th, 2016, 12:26 PM
Reality is becoming aware that you are personally responsible to God for everything that you do or believe.
You can do anything you want, on your own, inside your little bubble.