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Samie
March 6th, 2016, 09:11 AM
The 5 Pillars of the Gospel Ė a better alternative to Arminianism and Calvinism.
1. Spiritual Empowerment
2. Unconditional Election of Adamís Race
3. Perfect & Complete Redemption
4. Guidance of the Holy Spirit
5. Repentance & Overcoming1. Spiritual Empowerment . Contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of Christ, all of Adam's race came to existence into this world spiritually alive, that is, born with the capability to do spiritual acts, given the opportunity to do so. Each one is given faith, for without faith it is impossible to please God.

2. Unconditional Election of Adamís Race. By Godís grace given us in Christ before time began, God chose all of Adamís race and predestined them for adoption as children by Jesus Christ. God foreknew that man will fall into sin, and He implemented the plan of redemption right after man first fell into sin: Instead of Adam dying, an animal died that day Adam sinned, foreshadowing the death on the cross of the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world.

3. Perfect & Complete Redemption. On the cross, God fashioned all of Adamís race into the body of His Son, creating a new man Ė Christ the Head, Adamís race the Body. When the Head died, the Body died with Him, and Adamís race was forgiven from all sins and reconciled to God. When the Head resurrected, the Body was made alive together with Him, born again into a living hope of life eternal. Attached to the Head, they all are heaven-bound UNLESS detached from the Body by Christ Himself.

4. Guidance of the Holy Spirit. Throughout the lifetime of an individual, the Holy Spirit guides and coaches him, being part of the body, to live in accordance with the will of the Head. Attached to the Head Who is his life and strength, he has His Power to do what He wants Him to do. A person is free to decide whether to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit or not. God through Christ will decide who followed the guidance of the Holy Spirit. They are the ones who in their lifetime persevered to overcome evil with good.

5. Repentance & Overcoming. The call to repent is a call to overcome evil with good. Only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life where names of all were written from the foundation of the world. When Christ comes again to reward every man according to what each has done, those whose names remained written in the book of life will inherit life eternal; all others will be made to suffer the wrath of God, and finally, thrown into the lake of fire.

Clete
March 6th, 2016, 09:39 AM
It doesn't work that way, Samie.

You cannot hold to all the same premises and reject all of the rational conclusions that follow from them.

Arminius and Calvin were both wrong but they weren't wrong because they were stupid and hadn't thought through what they were saying. If the presuppositions of Calvinism are true then so is Calvinism, or at least most of it. And the same goes for Arminianism; if the presuppositions upon which the system is built are true then the system itself is true.

In other words, it isn't Calvin's logic that is flawed (well actually it is in areas but generally speaking...) it is his premises that are false and the same goes for Arminius.

For example, God DOES NOT exist outside of time. There is no such thing as "before time". It's a contradiction to even say it. Time is not a place, its an idea. So long as there are events that occur and that can be discussed relative to other events (i.e. sequence and duration) then time "exists". Time is the convention of language we use to convey information concerning the sequence and duration of events relative to other events. That's all it is. It cannot be existed "outside of" or "before".

This single false premise is responsible for a great deal of Calvinistic error, including Armininism, but the real error comes from their most basic presupposition. The notion that God is immutable. The absolute unchangeable God of Calvin and Arminius is the single premise upon nearly every error you can think of in either system (and indeed in most of Christianity) is ultimately based, including the notion that God exists outside of time. This primary premise can be proven false with a single bible verse...


John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,...

Resting in Him,
Clete

Samie
March 6th, 2016, 02:54 PM
It doesn't work that way, Samie.

You cannot hold to all the same premises and reject all of the rational conclusions that follow from them.

. . .Can you show me please, Clete? What in the OP, if any, runs counter to what Scriptures say?

Clete
March 6th, 2016, 03:23 PM
Can you show me please, Clete? What in the OP, if any, runs counter to what Scriptures say?

Well there's a lot but just to give a couple of examples..


All of point 1 is false.

By God’s grace given us in Christ before time began.

God chose all of Adam’s race and predestined them for adoption as children by Jesus Christ.

God foreknew that man will fall into sin,...

All of points 3, 4 & 5


And, by the way, you are the one making claims here. It isn't my job to debunk your claims, it is yours to establish them. My point was merely that you seem to want to preserve Calvin's theology proper (his theology of God) and to reject the rest of his system which is not going to work. You cannot hold to a premise and discard that which follows logically from it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Samie
March 6th, 2016, 04:57 PM
Well there's a lot but just to give a couple of examples..


All of point 1 is false.

By God’s grace given us in Christ before time began.

God chose all of Adam’s race and predestined them for adoption as children by Jesus Christ.

God foreknew that man will fall into sin,...

All of points 3, 4 & 5


And, by the way, you are the one making claims here. It isn't my job to debunk your claims, it is yours to establish them. My point was merely that you seem to want to preserve Calvin's theology proper (his theology of God) and to reject the rest of his system which is not going to work. You cannot hold to a premise and discard that which follows logically from it.

Resting in Him,
CleteThanks, Clete.

On Point 1, accountability entails empowerment for the one to be held accountable (Luke 12:48). Thus for all to become accountable, all need to be empowered. And God did this through Christ when we all were made alive TOGETHER with Him at His resurrection (Col 2:13; Eph 2:4-6).

On point 2, there is no partiality with God (Acts 10:34; Rom 2:11; Eph 6:9). To elect some and not all of Adam's race is playing favorites. In Adam we die; in Christ we live (Rom 5:18).

On point 3. The atonement done on the cross was perfect and complete. Having been fashioned into the body of Christ on the cross, we died with Him (Ep 2:11-19; 2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9). All our sins were forgiven (Col 2:13; Rev 1:5), and we all were reconciled to God by the death of His Son (Rom 5:10). And when He resurrected, we were made alive together with Him. Sins we currently commit, having been forgiven on the cross, are not counted against us (2 Cor 5:18, 19). In fact, God remembers our sins NO MORE (Heb 10:16, 17). This is God's way of continually justifying us through Christ Who was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25).

On point 4. The Holy Spirit guides us, being children of God (Rom 8:14-16) by adoption through Jesus Christ as God planned before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:3-5). Attached to Christ as His Body, we have His power (Phil 4:13) to overcome evil with good. We may decide to overcome evil or be overcome by it.

On point 5. God calls all to repentance (2 Pet 3:9), that is, to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). Jesus said He will not blot out names of overcomers from the Book of Life (Rev 3:5). Therefore, non-overcomers will be blotted out (Exo 32:33). The good news is, there is hope while alive, because it is only after one dies that judgment is rendered (Heb 9:27) whether to blot one's name or not from the book of life.

Can you show me how I could have erred in my use of Scriptures, Clete?

Clete
March 6th, 2016, 07:45 PM
Thanks, Clete.

On Point 1, accountability entails empowerment for the one to be held accountable (Luke 12:48). Thus for all to become accountable, all need to be empowered. And God did this through Christ when we all were made alive TOGETHER with Him at His resurrection (Col 2:13; Eph 2:4-6).
Based on several false premises....

Not every human being is made alive together with Christ, only believers are.

Another false premise here is the presumed need for an empowerment that we don't already have. In short, you've bought the total depravity of Calvinism. Total depravity is not biblical and thus there is no need for a biblical remedy for it. Just reject it.


On point 2, there is no partiality with God (Acts 10:34; Rom 2:11; Eph 6:9). To elect some and not all of Adam's race is playing favorites. In Adam we die; in Christ we live (Rom 5:18).
This buys into, not only the Calvinist understanding of what "elect" means but actually buys into "Unconditional Election" which is flatly irrational and certainly unbiblical and totally false.


On point 3. The atonement done on the cross was perfect and complete. Having been fashioned into the body of Christ on the cross, we died with Him (Ep 2:11-19; 2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9). All our sins were forgiven (Col 2:13; Rev 1:5), and we all were reconciled to God by the death of His Son (Rom 5:10). And when He resurrected, we were made alive together with Him. Sins we currently commit, having been forgiven on the cross, are not counted against us (2 Cor 5:18, 19). In fact, God remembers our sins NO MORE (Heb 10:16, 17). This is God's way of continually justifying us through Christ Who was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25).
This is nearly all based on Calvinistic soteriology! Why don't you just call yourself a Calvinist and be done with it?

Only believers are identified in Christ and only AFTER they believe. I did not exist 2000 years ago to be crucified with Christ. His death is applied to me by God when I believe. His death is credited to my account WHEN I believe, not before and certainly not 2000 years before I ever existed. And if Christ death was applied to the whole race then for God to send anyone to Hell would be unjust. The death penalty can only be justly applied once.


On point 4. The Holy Spirit guides us, being children of God (Rom 8:14-16) by adoption through Jesus Christ as God planned before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:3-5). Attached to Christ as His Body, we have His power (Phil 4:13) to overcome evil with good. We may decide to overcome evil or be overcome by it.
Now here comes Calvin's predestination. I don't know why you don't just drop the pretense.


On point 5. God calls all to repentance (2 Pet 3:9), that is, to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). Jesus said He will not blot out names of overcomers from the Book of Life (Rev 3:5). Therefore, non-overcomers will be blotted out (Exo 32:33). The good news is, there is hope while alive, because it is only after one dies that judgment is rendered (Heb 9:27) whether to blot one's name or not from the book of life.
Quasi-Universalism nonsense.


Can you show me how I could have erred in my use of Scriptures, Clete?
You learned none of this from scripture! You learned this from your Augustinian teachers. Much of what you said has never been taught at all in Christianity but most of it is just a slight twist on things introduced into Christianity by Augustine. There's not a dime's worth of difference between your doctrine and that of Calvin. His errors are yours and they come primarily from the belief in total depravity and in the notion that God cannot change in any way whatsoever.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Samie
March 8th, 2016, 02:59 PM
Hi Clete;

Thank you.

But your rebutall, it seems, comes not from what Scriptures say, but from what you want them to say. I couldn't take your words which are clearly against Scriptures. For example, you said:

Only believers are identified in Christ and only AFTER they believe.This is diametrically opposite to what Christ Himself said that while apart or separate from Him, one can do NOTHING (John 15:5), because you are indirectly saying that while separate from Christ one can do SOMETHING - he can believe so he can be attached to Christ.

Separate from Christ Who is our life (Col 3:4), one is spiritually dead. And as the physically dead can NOT do any physical act, so the spiritually dead can NOT do any spiritual act like believing. But you are indirectly saying that while spiritually dead, one can do the spiritual act of believing. For you, the Ethiopian can change his skin, and the leopard its spots (Jer 13:23).

Hope you now can see how unscriptural your position is.

But your position is the brand of gospel popularly preached to the world! And you wonder why Christ hasn't yet come? see Matt 24:14.

Clete
March 8th, 2016, 04:54 PM
Hi Clete;

Thank you.

But your rebutall, it seems, comes not from what Scriptures say, but from what you want them to say. I couldn't take your words which are clearly against Scriptures. For example, you said:
This is diametrically opposite to what Christ Himself said that while apart or separate from Him, one can do NOTHING (John 15:5), because you are indirectly saying that while separate from Christ one can do SOMETHING - he can believe so he can be attached to Christ.
You will not succeed in baiting me into a proof-texting context. It is utterly fruitless. The issue here has less to do with scripture than it has to do with paradigms.

What you've presented here is the Calvinist paradigm. This is simple Total Depravity, which IS NOT based (i.e. derived from) scripture but rather from Greek philosophy.


Separate from Christ Who is our life (Col 3:4), one is spiritually dead. And as the physically dead can NOT do any physical act, so the spiritually dead can NOT do any spiritual act like believing. But you are indirectly saying that while spiritually dead, one can do the spiritual act of believing. For you, the Ethiopian can change his skin, and the leopard its spots (Jer 13:23).
Will you now admit that you are a Calvinist? What did it take, two posts, for me to figure out that you were a closeted Calvinist?


Hope you now can see how unscriptural your position is.
:rotfl:


But your position is the brand of gospel popularly preached to the world! And you wonder why Christ hasn't yet come? see Matt 24:14.
This sort of comment often lands people on my ignore list. If you want to debate anything with me, you're not aloud to be a lunatic.

You don't know anything about me or what I believe! If you think what I preach is main stream, you're in for a shock.


Resting in Him,
Clete

Samie
March 9th, 2016, 06:17 AM
You will not succeed in baiting me into a proof-texting context. It is utterly fruitless. The issue here has less to do with scripture than it has to do with paradigms.Is this your way of admitting you can present NO scriptures for rebutting my position, brother?

What you've presented here is the Calvinist paradigm. This is simple Total Depravity, which IS NOT based (i.e. derived from) scripture but rather from Greek philosophy.So, for you, the Ethiopian can change his skin and the leopard its spots?


Will you now admit that you are a Calvinist? What did it take, two posts, for me to figure out that you were a closeted Calvinist?


:rotfl:Me, a Calvinist, according to your evaluation? Either you don't know Calvinism or you simply refuse to understand my position. Do Calvinists believe in blotting out of names from the book of life? I do.

This sort of comment often lands people on my ignore list. If you want to debate anything with me, you're not aloud to be a lunatic.So, for you, people who present you with Scriptures that run counter to your theology are lunatic and headed to your ignore list?


You don't know anything about me or what I believe! If you think what I preach is main stream, you're in for a shock.You are correct, because even now I'm really shocked why your rebuttal is devoid of Scriptures.

Clete
March 9th, 2016, 07:50 AM
Is this your way of admitting you can present NO scriptures for rebutting my position, brother?
Look, I've been debating Calvinists for twenty years, maybe longer. Proof texting is a waste of time. All that happens is, instead of debating Calvinism (i.e. its foundational principles) you end up debating about what whether this or that verse means what it says or whether its a figure of speech or whatever. I'm not interested in doing that. It's boring and it has no chance of changing anyone's mind.


So, for you, the Ethiopian can change his skin and the leopard its spots?
I reject the premise. The leopard's spots are what they are, they just aren't what you and Calvin suggest.


Me, a Calvinist, according to your evaluation? Either you don't know Calvinism or you simply refuse to understand my position. Do Calvinists believe in blotting out of names from the book of life? I do.
Oh you're a Calvinist alright. Maybe not one of the regular flavor but guacamole is guacamole whether it has onions in it or not.

Would it be more accurate to call you Calvinistic? Probably. But I don't care about being so precise. You believe that God has predestined everything and that God is immutable. At the very least that makes your an Augustinian and Calvinism is really nothing at all other than reformed Augustinian theology and is entire false for the same reasons.


So, for you, people who present you with Scriptures that run counter to your theology are lunatic and headed to your ignore list?
No, but those who suggest that Christ hasn't come because I'm preaching the wrong gospel, or anything similar to that, are.

Here's the deal. There is NOTHING you say, no argument you can make in support of anything that smells of Calvinism that I have seen, heard or read a thousand times before. If you want to test your Calvinistic metal, you're not likely to find anyone better than me to do it with. Not that such people don't exist but merely that they aren't actively posting on debate forums. But the thing you have to know is that I despise Calvin, Calvinism, Calvinist and anyone who understand what they teach and accept it as truth. Calvinism (Augustinian doctrine) is blasphemy of the highest order and I do not pull punches. If you say something idiotic, I will call you an idiot. If you say something blasphemous, you'll get it from me with both barrels. If you can't stand the heat, stay out of this kitchen.

If, on the other hand, you've got thick skin and are willing to debate in a manner that is intellectually honest and productive (i.e. make real arguments rather than mere claims and avoid proof-texting that doesn't prove anything) then we'll have some fun. It's up to you.


You are correct, because even now I'm really shocked why your rebuttal is devoid of Scriptures.
It's devoid of scriptures because you wouldn't be any more convinced by my proof texts than I am by yours! It is a waste of time and I will not debate based on proof texts.
That is not to say that I won't use passages of scripture help make and/or support an argument or that I have a problem with you doing so. The point is simply that just because you can quote a verse or two of scripture doesn't mean you've even made an argument never mind proven your position. Every crack pop cult leader that has ever existed could sit and quote the bible at you all day long. David Koresh spent hours at a time preaching out of the bible. Whole books have been written giving supposedly biblical arguments both in favor of and in rebuttal to not only Calvinism but every other Christian sect. It isn't one's reading of the bible that is the problem, it is the glasses you wear when reading it. If you have Calvinist colored glasses on, you'll see Calvinism everywhere and will utterly blind to anything else. What I', interested in debating is the glasses, not what you see when you have them on.

Here is the core of my argument against Calvinism or any flavor of it..

If Calvinism is true then love is impossible and God is unjust. It is God's quality that is the basis of my argument. It is God's quantity that will be yours. You, whether you realize it or not, place emphasis on how big God is (omnipresence), how much God knows (omniscience), how much power God has (omnipotence) as well as attributes such as immutability and impassibility. I, on the other hand, put the emphasis on God's love, justice, kindness, mercy, personality, relationships, etc. And don't make the error of claiming you consider all of those things of equal importance, you don't. I have no doubt that you think you do but you don't. You are forced to choose and you have chosen and your choice colors everything you read in your bible and every thought you have about all things theological. It all about paradigms. If you engage the debate, you'll see (hopefully).

Resting in Him,
Clete

p.s. No time to proof read this one. Please excuse any typos.

Samie
March 9th, 2016, 03:07 PM
Hi Clete,

I have read but, to save space, won't quote your whole post.

I am quite convinced that you prefer presenting your own thinking to defend your belief instead of using the Bible. What are you AFRAID of in using Scriptures, brother?

For starters, I already have mentioned in an earlier post where I quoted you saying "Only believers are identified in Christ and only AFTER they believe. ".

I responded that your statement is AGAINST the words of Jesus Himself. He said:NAS John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.You don't want to quote verses and instead bring your own philosophy that is diametrically opposite to the words of the Master Teacher. You teach that while yet apart from Christ, people can do SOMETHING - they can believe.

That God attached us to His Son first and foremost reveals God's love. He knows that apart from His Son Who is our life (Col 3:4), people can do NOTHING, being yet spiritually dead. So He sent His Son to give life to the world (John 6:33). And this was planned BEFORE the beginning of time, before the world began (2 Tim 1:8-10).

Let's first tackle this issue to its logical end. I won't mind you NOT USING Scriptures to defend your position. So don't mind me USING Scriptures in defending mine.

Clete
March 9th, 2016, 05:41 PM
Hi Clete,

I have read but, to save space, won't quote your whole post.

I am quite convinced that you prefer presenting your own thinking to defend your belief instead of using the Bible. What are you AFRAID of in using Scriptures, brother?
I don't care what you think you're convinced about and if you don't drop it, I'll simply ignore you.


For starters, I already have mentioned in an earlier post where I quoted you saying "Only believers are identified in Christ and only AFTER they believe. ".

I responded that your statement is AGAINST the words of Jesus Himself. He said:NAS John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.You don't want to quote verses and instead bring your own philosophy that is diametrically opposite to the words of the Master Teacher. You teach that while yet apart from Christ, people can do SOMETHING - they can believe.
Nothing you say will goad me into getting into a proof texting contest with you - period. My doctrine does not contradict one syllable of what Jesus said, you are reading your doctrine into the text. A point I could argue till the cows come home and you won't accept it. No matter what I quote or how many times I quote it.


That God attached us to His Son first and foremost reveals God's love. He knows that apart from His Son Who is our life (Col 3:4), people can do NOTHING, being yet spiritually dead. So He sent His Son to give life to the world (John 6:33). And this was planned BEFORE the beginning of time, before the world began (2 Tim 1:8-10).
This is simply Calvin's doctrine of total depravity which IS NOT based in scripture - period! And there is no such thing as "before the beginning of time".

You're just reciting typical Calvinism. It's nothing that hasn't be rebuttal a million times on this website alone by me and dozens of others. You are reading your doctrine into the text, Samie! The bible does not teach this stupidity. How can there be anything BEFORE time? It's idiotic!


Let's first tackle this issue to its logical end. I won't mind you NOT USING Scriptures to defend your position. So don't mind me USING Scriptures in defending mine.
I've already said that I don't mind the use of scripture (scripture isn't God so let's not use the capital 'S') to support AN ARGUMENT. It's when you use scripture as the argument that what you are doing become proof-texting. Proof-texting is a child's game. If it were a valid form of argument then David Koresh was the Messiah. There are people alive still to this day that believe exactly that and they can proof-text you to death in defense of it.

Biblical arguments only work and are only valid once a person's theological paradigm is understood and has been established. In other words, the biblical arguments you make and that you've heard made in support of your doctrine are acceptable to you because you share the same theological paradigm with whomever made the biblical arguments. If I, on the other hand, presented you with a list of bible verses that "prove" that God does not know the future, you'd reject the argument no matter how many verses I quoted! Your paradigm is like a guard that won't let anything to far outside the box enter into that which can be accepted as reasonable.

So, I've said it a couple of times already and I'll say it again. Our disagreement is not a biblical issue, it is an issue about foundational presuppositions that are brought to our respective reading of scripture. The real question is which of our foundations can be both biblically and rationally defended and which cannot. And as I pointed out in my previous post, the particular presuppositions in question here have to do with our 'theology proper', that is our theology of who God is. Your doctrine, whether you're aware of it or not, is founded upon the quantitative attributes of God (i.e. how much He knows, how much power He has, etc) as well as the notion that God cannot change in any way whatsoever. That IS the foundation upon which you stand. I, on the other hand, stand on God's qualitative attributes (i.e. God is relational, loving, kind, just, merciful, etc.).

Resting in Him,
Clete

Samie
March 10th, 2016, 06:54 AM
Thanks for the well-thought out yet unscriptural response.

Sorry but not to disappoint you, I simply base my position upon what the Bible plainly says. And you don't. You just said your words do not contradict what Jesus said but they do. And the wonderful thing about it is you don't care explaining, because you can't?

Jesus: "Apart from Me, you can co NOTHING."
Clete: Apart from Christ, people can do SOMETHING - they can believe.

Now explain why you think your statement does not contradict Jesus' statement. That is, if you can.

Samie
March 10th, 2016, 06:57 AM
Thanks for the well-thought out yet unscriptural response.

Sorry but not to disappoint you, I simply base my position upon what the Bible plainly says. And you don't. You just said your words do not contradict what Jesus said but they do. And the wonderful thing about it is you don't care explaining, because you can't?

Jesus: "Apart from Me, you can co NOTHING."
Clete: Apart from Christ, people can do SOMETHING - they can believe.

Now explain why you think your statement does not contradict Jesus' statement. That is, if you can.

Clete
March 10th, 2016, 07:34 AM
Thanks for the well-thought out yet unscriptural response.
You're welcome!

You won't shame me into a proof-texting contest either.


Sorry but not to disappoint you, I simply base my position upon what the Bible plainly says.
The only people who feel it necessary to say this are those who suspect it might not be true.

If it were true, you'd have never said a word about "before time began". You, like most everyone else, believe what you've been taught to believe.


And you don't. You just said your words do not contradict what Jesus said but they do.
No, they do not. They contradict your doctrine but Jesus was not talking about what you are and He commonly used figures of speech.


And the wonderful thing about it is you don't care explaining, because you can't?
Accuse me of what you like. I WILL NOT get into a contest to see who can post the most proof texts! I'm offering to explode your entire theological world view and you want me to pop a fire work. It isn't going to happen.


Jesus: "Apart from Me, you can co NOTHING."
Evil people do things all the time, Samie! They do good things, bad things, indifferent things - all sorts of things all day long, every single day. Jesus was NOT saying what your doctrine teaches you He was saying! You are reading your doctrine into the text and this is precisely why you'll not even consider what I've said here as possibly true and why proof texting is a complete and utterly foolish waste of time and why I will not do it no matter how many times you beg or prod or try to steer me into it.

Once again, that doesn't mean I don't use scripture to make an argument. There is a time and a place for it but we are not there yet! Not even close! Trust me! I'm not being stubborn, I've been down that road so many times I've lost count years ago. It's a fruitless waste of time.


Clete: Apart from Christ, people can do SOMETHING - they can believe.

Now explain why you think your statement does not contradict Jesus' statement. That is, if you can.
Hypebole (http://literarydevices.net/hyperbole/)

As I said, evil people, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, Taoists, Pharisees, Sadducees, Samaritans, Nazarenes and Christians do good things all the time.

Your doctrine of total depravity is NOT based in scripture, Samie. It didn't exist in the church before Augustine and he based it on his doctrine of original sin, which is also not biblical.

You do not believe in the religion you think you believe in. You've been tricked.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Samie
March 10th, 2016, 07:54 AM
Thanks for the verbosity in your response, Clete.

But for me, you failed in your explanation. The fact that people can do bad things is not because they are not attached to Christ. They are. That's why they will be held accountable. Attached to Christ, they have His power to overcome evil. But instead they let evil overcome them. Their names will be blotted out from the book of life.

You did not stop with the evil deeds people do. People also do good things, even those people you call evil people. Isn't feeding one's family a good deed? And no good deed people do are done apart from Christ, for He EXPLICITLY said that apart from Him we can do NOTHING. And that's NOT a hyperbole. Tell me one REALLY, REALLY BAD human who has not done any single good deed, is there?

For those who choose to believe, they have overcome the evil of disbelief and unbelief. The name of the game is overcoming, Clete. And only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5).

Your explanation did not outdo the reality that your statement contradicted Christ's. You may try again.

TulipBee
March 10th, 2016, 12:57 PM
The 5 Pillars of the Gospel Ė a better alternative to Arminianism and Calvinism.
1.Spiritual Empowerment
2.Unconditional Election of Adamís Race
3.Perfect & Complete Redemption
4.Guidance of the Holy Spirit
5.Repentance & Overcoming1. Spiritual Empowerment . Contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of Christ, all of Adam's race came to existence into this world spiritually alive, that is, born with the capability to do spiritual acts, given the opportunity to do so. Each one is given faith, for without faith it is impossible to please God.

2. Unconditional Election of Adamís Race. By Godís grace given us in Christ before time began, God chose all of Adamís race and predestined them for adoption as children by Jesus Christ. God foreknew that man will fall into sin, and He implemented the plan of redemption right after man first fell into sin: Instead of Adam dying, an animal died that day Adam sinned, foreshadowing the death on the cross of the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world.

3. Perfect & Complete Redemption. On the cross, God fashioned all of Adamís race into the body of His Son, creating a new man Ė Christ the Head, Adamís race the Body. When the Head died, the Body died with Him, and Adamís race was forgiven from all sins and reconciled to God. When the Head resurrected, the Body was made alive together with Him, born again into a living hope of life eternal. Attached to the Head, they all are heaven-bound UNLESS detached from the Body by Christ Himself.

4. Guidance of the Holy Spirit. Throughout the lifetime of an individual, the Holy Spirit guides and coaches him, being part of the body, to live in accordance with the will of the Head. Attached to the Head Who is his life and strength, he has His Power to do what He wants Him to do. A person is free to decide whether to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit or not. God through Christ will decide who followed the guidance of the Holy Spirit. They are the ones who in their lifetime persevered to overcome evil with good.

5. Repentance & Overcoming. The call to repent is a call to overcome evil with good. Only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life where names of all were written from the foundation of the world. When Christ comes again to reward every man according to what each has done, those whose names remained written in the book of life will inherit life eternal; all others will be made to suffer the wrath of God, and finally, thrown into the lake of fire.
There are no alternatives. You either save yourself or God saves you.

Samie
March 10th, 2016, 02:08 PM
There are no alternatives. You either save yourself or God saves you.This thread is "Alternative to Arminianism & Calvinism" NOT "Alternative to God's Saving Grace". Sorry but you've wandered to the wrong schoolroom. Kindergartens are down the hallway.

TulipBee
March 10th, 2016, 06:34 PM
This thread is "Alternative to Arminianism & Calvinism" NOT "Alternative to God's Saving Grace". Sorry but you've wandered to the wrong schoolroom. Kindergartens are down the hallway.
Smart mouthing makes you look bad

Clete
March 10th, 2016, 06:58 PM
Thanks for the verbosity in your response, Clete.

But for me, you failed in your explanation. The fact that people can do bad things is not because they are not attached to Christ. They are. That's why they will be held accountable. Attached to Christ, they have His power to overcome evil. But instead they let evil overcome them. Their names will be blotted out from the book of life.

You did not stop with the evil deeds people do. People also do good things, even those people you call evil people. Isn't feeding one's family a good deed? And no good deed people do are done apart from Christ, for He EXPLICITLY said that apart from Him we can do NOTHING. And that's NOT a hyperbole. Tell me one REALLY, REALLY BAD human who has not done any single good deed, is there?

For those who choose to believe, they have overcome the evil of disbelief and unbelief. The name of the game is overcoming, Clete. And only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5).

Your explanation did not outdo the reality that your statement contradicted Christ's. You may try again.
You're the one who needs to try again. I didn't say people do bad things, I said that they do good things.

And you are on the cutting edge of finding yourself on my ignore list. The next time you say something condescending to me without having even read my post, that's we're you'll be.

And finally, as I predicted, there is NOTHING I or ANYONE could ever say to make you think anything other than what you think! There is NOTHING WHATSOEVER that I can say that will move you one inch off believing that I've contradicted Jesus. Facts be damned! God Himself could not convince you with words.

If I've contradicted what Jesus was actually teaching (which I haven't) then Jesus is a liar and the whole of Christianity is false. That's how big a deal this is, Samie. But I will spent not one more second trying to talk you away from your proof texts. It is a waste of time. If that's all your interested in doing just say so now and I'll leave you to your grade school games.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Samie
March 11th, 2016, 08:24 AM
You're the one who needs to try again. I didn't say people do bad things, I said that they do good things.Really? You did not say people do bad things? How about this, Clete?:
. . .

Evil people do things all the time, Samie! They do good things, bad things, indifferent things - all sorts of things all day long, every single day. . . .

Resting in Him,
CleteCaught with hands in the cookie jar?


And you are on the cutting edge of finding yourself on my ignore list. The next time you say something condescending to me without having even read my post, that's we're you'll be.Of course. That's your only recourse for a better way out. And a better excuse, too, than throw in the towel. Why wait for the obvious to come?


And finally, as I predicted, . . .Weather forecaster or a prophet, or both?


. . . there is NOTHING I or ANYONE could ever say to make you think anything other than what you think!There's one you've forgotten that could change my view: the plain words of the Bible. But so far, the Bible agrees with what I say.


There is NOTHING WHATSOEVER that I can say that will move you one inch off believing that I've contradicted Jesus.No need for you to say anything. It's clear as noonday that you've contradicted Him. Jesus said "apart from me, man can do NOTHING"; you said apart from Christ, man can do SOMETHING.

Facts be damned! God Himself could not convince you with words.You have not given facts. Your words are not facts. God's words in Scriptures have convinced me that apart from Christ man can do NOTHING. Those same words FAILED to convince you, Clete. You insist man can do SOMETHING apart from Christ.


If I've contradicted what Jesus was actually teaching (which I haven't) . . .Really? Jesus said " man can do NOTHING"; you insist "man can do SOMETHING". And still you're not contradicting Him?

then Jesus is a liar and the whole of Christianity is false.OMG! Simply because you contradicted Jesus, Jesus became a liar? Good heavens!!! Whatta mouth!!!

That's how big a deal this is, Samie.Then explain how you did not contradict Jesus. Your denial is not an explanation.

But I will spent not one more second trying to talk you away from your proof texts. It is a waste of time. If that's all your interested in doing just say so now and I'll leave you to your grade school games.

Resting in Him,
CleteYou're flattering Samie by identifying him with the babes in grade school, Clete: KJV Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Clete
March 11th, 2016, 03:51 PM
Good bye Samie!



You're an intellectually dishonest waste of my time.

Believe what you want. It doens't matter if it makes sense or whether you believe in a god who is just.

:wave2:

Samie
March 11th, 2016, 04:23 PM
Good bye Samie!



You're an intellectually dishonest waste of my time.

Believe what you want. It doens't matter if it makes sense or whether you believe in a god who is just.

:wave2:Thanks for your time, Clete. I enjoyed discussing with you.

Hope you soon realize that God through Christ empowered man first BEFORE man can do ANYTHING, for Christ has said that apart from Him, man can do NOTHING.

Clete
March 12th, 2016, 07:13 AM
Thanks for your time, Clete. I enjoyed discussing with you.

Hope you soon realize that God through Christ empowered man first BEFORE man can do ANYTHING, for Christ has said that apart from Him, man can do NOTHING.

I didn't enjoy it at all and I hope you realize that you can't eat your cake and have it too.

Samie
March 12th, 2016, 02:30 PM
I didn't enjoy it at allOf course. No one enjoys being beaten.

and I hope you realize that you can't eat your cake and have it too.Well, I have the cake I ate in my tummy.

And thanks for passing by, Clete.

Clete
March 12th, 2016, 07:47 PM
Since you want to proof text, here's 97 verses the prove (according to your own standard) that Open Theism is true (and therefore that your doctrine is silly)...

1. God worked in six day-divided time spans, but rested on the seventh day (Gen 2:1-2)
2. God brought the animals before Adam to see what he would call them. (Gen 2:19)
3. God is uncertain whether they will eat of the Tree of Life after the fall. (Gen 3:22)
4. God repents that he made man. (Gen 6:6)
5. God must patiently wait while the ark is being built (1 Pet 3:20)
6. Satan is willing to wager with God over how the future will turn out. (Job 1:11-12)
7. Abraham challenges God over his promise, and lives! (Gen 15:2-3, 6)
8. God is prevailed upon by Abraham over whether to spare Sodom. (Gen 18:23-33)
9. The angels of God argue with Lot about sleeping in the square (Gen 19:2-4)
10. God learns that Abraham would go to not withhold even his son (Gen 22:12)
11. God is moved by the cries of injustice (Ex. 2:23-25)
12. God agrees with Moses that a backup plan should be prepared. (Ex. 4:1-9)
13. God promised those in the Exodus would reach the promise land, but they don’t. (Deut. 1:8; 1:34)
14. God is uncertain how Israel will react when they see war. (Ex 13:17)
15. God tells Moses He will destroy Israel, but does not. (Ex 32:7-10; Deut 10:10)
16. God tells Moses He will not lead them, but He does (Ex. 33:3-19)
17. God wants to destroy Israel again, but is talked out of it (Num 14:11-12)
18. God sets both a curse and a blessing for Israel to choose. (Deut. 11:26-28)
19. God has faith in the people, that they can do it. (Deut 30:11)
20. God gives the choice of life and death. (Deut. 30:19)
21. God repents when his sets up people that lead others astray. (Deut. 32:36)
22. God promises to drive out the Canaanites, but doesn’t (Josh 3:10; Judg 2:1-3; 3:1-7)
23. Joshua charges that we can choose between good and evil. (Joshua 24:15)
24. God changes His mind about establishing Eli and his sons forever. (1 Sam 2:30)
25. God gives Israel a king before He had planned to. (1 Sam 7:7-8)
26. God had planned to establish Saul forever, but will not. (1 Sam 13:13-14)
27. God repents over making Saul king. (1 Sam 15:10)
28. David believes God can change His mind. (2 Sam 12:21-23)
29. God’s mercy stopped the punishment from completing what He said. (2 Sam 24:16; 2 Chr 21:15)
30. Elijah claims they had two options to choose from. (1 Kings 18:21)
31. God is not always in the wind, fire, and earthquakes. (1 Kings 19:12)
32. God is full of compassion. (Ps 78:38-40)
33. God is limited by man’s decisions (Ps 78:41)
34. God desires new songs (Ps 33:3; 96:1; 98:1; 144:9; 149:1).
35. Heed my rebuke demands God, or else (Prov 1:22-27).
36. The span of your life is alterable (Prov. 9:11)
37. Solomon lists chance as a factor in life. (Ecc 9:11)
38. God tells Hezekiah that he will die, then adds years to his life. (2 Kings 20:1-6)
39. God expected His work towards Israel would not be in vain. (Isa 5:1-5)
40. God’s desire is to be allowed to forget our sins. (Isa 43:25).
41. God declares the future, rather than knowing it. (Isa 46:9-11)
42. It is not God that keeps men from being saved. (Isa 59:1)
43. The people were able to grieve the Holy Spirit. (Isa. 63:10)
44. God predicted Israel would repent, but admits He was wrong. (Jer 3:7-10)
45. Ordaining the sacrificing of children never entered God’s mind (Jer 7:31; 19:5; 32:35)
46. God gets tired of repenting. (Jer 15:6)
47. God promises to repent of what He thought to destroy a repenting people. (Jer 18:7-8)
48. God promises to repent of what He says to promote a backslidden people. (Jer 18:9-10)
49. God is uncertain if the people will repent if they hear his message. (Jer 26:2-3)
50. God is uncertain if the people will repent from a written message. (Jer 36:2-3)
51. God does not willingly bring grief on men. (Lam 3:33)
52. God despises the fatalistic viewpoint. (Eze 18:2)
53. God predicts Babylon will take Tyre, but they do not. (Eze 26:7; 29:18)
54. God predicts Babylon will destroy Egypt, but they do not (Eze 30:10)
55. What God wants, is for the wicked to turn from their ways. (Eze 33:11)
56. God becomes heartbroken. (Hosea 11:8-9)
57. God sends a drought to influence his people without success (Amos 4:6-11)
58. Nineveh repents and God refuses to fulfill His prophecy. (Jonah 3:10)
59. Jesus became flesh, who had never been so previously. (John 1:14)
60. The will of men and the will of God need to coincide. (John 7:17)
61. Some people are just born blind. (John 9:1-4)
62. Man has a choice, and God wants him to choose to abide in Him. (John 15:6-7)
63. Jesus is amazed at the unbelief of Israel. (Mark 6:6)
64. Jesus is marveled at the belief of Gentiles (Luke 7:9)
65. The Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God. (Luke 7:30)
66. They could have believed if Satan hadn’t interfered. (Luke 8:12)
67. Jesus teaches about chance meetings. (Luke 10:31)
68. Bad things happen without a reason. (Luke 13:2-5)
69. God wants to destroy Israel, but Jesus convinces God to wait-and-see. (Luke 13:6-9)
70. Woe! Men are responsible for their own actions. (Luke 17:1)
71. Perhaps they will respect the master’s son, says the master. (Luke 20:13)
72. Jesus asks people to come to him. (Matt 11:28).
73. Jesus predicts the last days will not last as long as prophesied. (Matt 24:22)
74. Jesus predicts he will return in His follower’s lifetime. (Mat 24:33-34; 16:28; 10:23; 23:31-36)
75. Jesus says he wanted Israel to rally to him, but they weren’t willing. (Mat 23:37)
76. Jesus left Godliness to become sin and to experience death, for us. (Phil 2:8; Heb 12:12-20)
77. The Father, for the first time, forsakes the Son. (Mat 27:46)
78. The Holy Spirit announces the start of the Last Days that never come. (Acts 2:14-20)
79. People can resist the Holy Spirit in their lives (Acts 7:51)
80. Paul advises to prevent prophecy from happening. (Acts 13:40-41; Hab 1:5)
81. Faith comes from things that men do – namely hearing and reading. (Rom 10:17)
82. God may return to Israel if the Gentiles abuse their position. (Rom 11:20-24)
83. Love is more important to God than a prophecy. (1 Cor 13:1-13)
84. Your prize is not decreed, but is based on how you run. (1 Cor . 9:24)
85. God changes His mind about keeping the Sabbaths. (Col 2:16)
86. God wants all to be saved. (1 Tim. 2:3)
87. God’s will is that men abstain from sexual immorality. (1 Thess 4:3)
88. Jesus must wait for his enemies to become His footstool. (Heb 10:12-13)
89. God does not pick one person over another (Gal 2:6)
90. If you do these things, your election will be made sure. (2 Peter 1:10)
91. The Holy Spirit counsels everyone to decide to come to Christ. (2 Peter 3:9)
92. Temptation originates apart from God’s decree but from our own will. (James 1:13-15)
93. God very strongly desires that we follow Him and not the world. (James4:5)
94. There is time in heaven. (Rev. 8:1; 6:10; 22:2)
95. The water of life is offered to whoever wills. (Rev 22:17)
96. God gave a test "to see" if Israel would follow the law or not (Exodus 16:4)
97. It never entered God's mind that people would sacrifice their own children to an idol. (Jeremiah 32:35)

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. Thanks goes to ApologeticJedi for compiling most (all but the last two) this list back in '07

Clete
March 12th, 2016, 07:55 PM
And to contrast the difference between proof texting and making an actual argument, here's what a real biblical ARGUMENT looks like...

Incidentally, this biblical proof also destroys your childish quasi-Calvinist doctrine!



Here is a biblical PROOF that GOD IS IN TIME and experiences change in sequence:

In the "eternal state" before the foundation of the world God the Son was not also the SON OF MAN; then He "became" flesh as "the Son of Man" and so the Son remains eternally "the Man Jesus Christ" (1 Tim 2:5).
Many theologians reject this proof that God is in time. Why? They claim that their historical-grammatical hermeneutic, that is, their primary method of interpretation, proves that God is not in time. So let's look at the relationship of God and time.

When Reading in "the Greek" about God and Time, We See that God is:

- timeless,
- in an eternal now,
- not was nor will be but is, and
- has no past
- has no future.

Of course NOT ONE of these phrases are in the Bible. They're from Plato. And they're uncritically repeated by Christians in various systematic theology textbooks.

By "the Greek" there, I meant pagan Greek philosophy (and pagan Hinduism, etc.). In contrast, the Bible's Hebrew and Greek terms are TOTALLY different. They all speak of God existing through unending duration and everlasting amounts of time. The above terms are foreign to the student of God's Word, whereas the Bible's terms are all so very familiar from our Scripture reading. Even though typically translated by those who claim that God is outside of time, yet still, the Bible's many descriptions present God as existing in a never-ending sequence of time.

When Reading Your Bible about God and Time, We See that God is:

Everlasting - From of old - Before ever He had formed the earth - The Ancient of Days - Before the world was - From before the ages of the ages - From ancient times - He continues forever - Immortal - Remains forever - Forever and ever - God’s years - manifest in His own time - God who is - Alive forevermore - Who was - Who is to come - Always lives - Forever - In the age to come - Continually - God’s years never end - From everlasting to everlasting - From that time forward, even forever - And of His kingdom there will be no end.

Of course ALL THESE are verbatim quotes from Scripture and NOT ONE MEANS TIMELESSNESS. The scores of passages represented from these phrases teach the opposite of pagan Plato's claim that God has "no past" and "no future." Open Theism claims that the future is open (and not settled) because God is free and eternally creative and will always have new thoughts. The Settled View claims that the future is utterly and exhaustively settled and its advocates includes all Calvinist and Arminian theologians. These Settled View adherents interpret ALL scripture about God and time as a FIGURE OF SPEECH. But they take Plato literally. Why?
The human philosophy of the pagan Greeks (which Augustine admited that he adapted to Christian theology), assumes that God exists outside of time, something the language of Scripture could easily present if that were God's intention.

The Above Proof By Proof Texts: Let's demonstrate the above proof again this time using only Bible excerpts. Those who claim that God is outside of time also frequently use the unbiblical phrase, "the eternal state." Actually, every moment is in the eternal state, including those moments before creation, all those since, and including those that will follow the New Creation. The following purely scriptural phrases show that in the "eternal state," WHO GOD WAS in eternity past differs from WHO GOD IS now and in eternity future. The differences do not include anythink like an abandonment of His fundamental attributes (which are that He is Living, Personal, Relational, Good, and Loving), but rather, they are divine expressions of these attributes. For:

"The Father… is Spirit" and "invisible," "from of old… from everlasting," just "like the Son of God," who "loved [the Son] before the foundation of the world." Yet "God was manifested in the flesh" for "the Word BECAME flesh," having "partaken of flesh and blood," and "coming in the likeness of men" "to be made like His brethren." So "He is the SON OF MAN," "from the seed of David," "Jesus Christ… the Son of Abraham." And "this MAN, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God." And "He ever lives to make intercession," for "the Mediator between God and men" is "the MAN Christ Jesus." So "God… will judge the world… by the MAN whom He has ordained," and "in the regeneration… the SON OF MAN sits on the throne of His glory."

The second person of the Trinity, God the Son, was not OF MAN through eternity past. Neither David, nor Adam, nor any of us, were necessary for God to be God. But the second person of the Trinity is now Jesus, the SON OF MAN. But willing to trade away God's freedom, holiness, and a thousand literal Bible verses, many theologians will sacrifice the greatest truths of Scripture for Platonic immutability. (Some Christians even say that they would reject Christ if God had actual freedom.) As we've seen in the "comment thread" to Bob Enyart's Open Theism Debate with the president of The North American Reformed Seminary, a reader responding to our own BEL producer Will Duffy, wrote:

"Jesus Christ is God and man, he is both, he has eternally existed as both."
Christians desperate to win an argument that God is outside of time will even flirt with the unbiblical claim that God the Son was always a man, from eternity past. However, regarding the extension of humanity onto God the Son Himself through the incarnation, there is a divine chronological order. For:

"...the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. The first man was of the earth… the second Man is the Lord from heaven." 1 Cor. 15:46

But theologians committed to the Settled View handle this verse like they do a thousand others. They turn it into a figure of speech meaning the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the passage naturally states. If they were correct in this, then of course Christians could we can safely ignore the evident teaching of this and many other such passages. But in truth, Jesus was the Son of God from eternity past, and He became forever the Son of Man only at the Incarnation. For remember that writing in Genesis Moses introduced Melchizedek without parents making it appear that He had no beginning, "like the Son of God" (Heb. 7:3).

The Son of Man: As men, we probably would never pick the same title for Jesus as is His favorite title for Himself, "the Son of Man." That title seems almost common to us, because we are all sons of man. But He took that title for Himself after much humbling and lowering and emptying of Himself. That title, the Son of Man, is precious to Him because it cost Him so much. But many theologians reject that the Incarnation shows change in God, as demonstrated in the TNARS Open Theism debate (mentioned above). In defending their position, such theologians claim that Open Theists confuse Christ's humanity with His divinity. However, there are not four persons of the trinity, as is implied by such objections. His humanity did not become human. It is the eternal God the Son who became flesh.

To defend Platonic utter immutability those who hold the Settled View will deny that God has the freedom even to think new thoughts. So what do they get in trade for God's freedom? They can claim that before the criminal was ever born, God decided how often to rape that child and how filthy each time would be, "all for His glory and pleasure" including the rapist being beat to death in prison. The fact that God says, "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked" (Ezek. 33:11) is irrelevant because it's all a double figure of speech meaning the EXACT OPPOSITE of what the text says, as we can see from the sad reality that many theologians believe that God did ordain the rape, and the beating death, "for His pleasure." And they even claim that God is impassible, that is, that He can have no emotion or passion, for in contrast to a hundred verses in Scripture, John Calvin wrote that God is, "incapable of every feeling." So when God says He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, they claim really that He can have NO pleasure whatsoever. Yes, God's ways are higher than our ways. But they're not lower. He doesn't take pleasure from adultery.

When pressed, as in the above debate, many theologians will admit that Sovereignty is NOT an eternal attribute of God. That is a valid position, for otherwise, God's very existence would be dependent upon the creation. Just as Adam is not necessary for God to be God (as he would have been if the Son of God were also the Son of Man, eternally) so too if the quantitative attribute of exhaustive foreknowledge is required for God to be God, then the one reading this sentence at this very moment would also be a necessary prerequisite for God to be God, for God could not then exist apart from each and every one of us being and doing and thinking everything in fact that we've been and done and thought. For if our existence is necessary in His mind eternally for Him to be God, then in a fundamental way we are also eternally necessary for God's very existence, and He then could not be God without me. This is a twisted theological perversion. Such notions diminish God. And they bring the Christian into absurdities like praying to change the past. After all, if God is outside of time, then there is no difference to God in prayers for the future and those for the past, in praying for those living today and for those who died yesterday. Christians find themselves battling the same absurdities as time traveling science fiction characters. Coming back to reality though, even in sovereignty we see God changing. For in eternity past He was not sovereign. Yet after He returns "in His own time" as "the King of kings" (1 Tim. 6:15) He will reign Sovereign in His kingdom that will never end (Isaiah 9:7).

Bad Translations: "Before time began" (2 Tim. 1:9 & Titus 1:2) is widely quoted yet in the Greek text of the New Testament there is no verb "began" in the orginal language. And the singular word "time" does not appear. Instead, Paul wrote, "before the times of the ages," which is very different from the way many of our Bible versions render this phrase, which translations do not flow from the grammar but from on the translators' commitment to Greek philosophy.

- "Time shall be no more" (Rev. 10:6; hymns) is corrected even by Calvinist translators in virtually all modern versions as is also made overtly clear from the text and the context, "There will be no more delay!"
- "The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" at Revelation 13:8 can be corrected (as at the NIV footnote) by cross-referencing the passage with Revelation 17:8. For the bible teaches that "only those written in the Lamb's Book of Life" (Rev. 21:27) shall have be saved, and that God could save Old Testament believers because He looked forward to the cross, and He can save believers now because He looks backward to the cross. So in the Old Testament God looked forward and in the last two millenia He looks backward to that wonderful and yet terrible time. However, if Christ had been slain previously, before the foundation of the world, then there would have been no need for the righteous dead to wait in Abraham's Bosom "until the death of the one who is high priest in those days" (symbolizing Christ). The parallel passage at Revelation 17:8 shows that the qualifier does not apply to the slaying of Christ but to the wicked, "whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world." This means that these evil men were not believers who had fallen away, but that their names were NEVER written in the book. (See a similar construct in Jeremiah 2:32.) Revelation 13:8 can even be seen as giving the title and sub-title of The Book of Life – Of the Lamb Slain.

There is Time in Heaven: When He opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about HALF AN HOUR (Rev. 8:1).

- When He opened the fifth seal [martyrs in heaven said]: "HOW LONG, O Lord… until You… avenge our blood…" (Rev. 6:9; 11:17-18).
- …the tree of life… bore twelve fruits [a different one] EVERY MONTH (Rev. 22:2).

- But this Man, AFTER He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down… FROM THAT TIME WAITING TILL His enemies are [defeated] (Heb. 10:12-13).

- [God will not punish demons] "before [their] time" (Mat. 8:29).
If the TRUE perspective is God's ETERNAL NOW, then David is now killing Bathsheba’s husband, each believer is still in his sin, and the Father is right now pouring out wrath on His Son, right now. But this is false for Hebrews says that Jesus suffered "once for all."

Neither men nor angles can be omnipresent, even in heaven, for they would thereby have to be divine. The same limitation would apply with timelessness. If God existed outside of time the angels before His throne ("who do not rest… saying, 'Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, Who was and is and is to come'") and the men ministering to Him forever would also have to be timeless, which would mean that they were divine also. And Jesus said we shall receive much "in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life" (Luke 18:30), and as for things that can happen, as He said in a parable, some things happen "by chance" (Luke 10:31). And "In the beginning" does not mean in the beginning of time, for that's Augustine's interpretation based on Plato, but we have the Lord's interpretation based on Mark, for as Jesus said, the phrase means in "the beginning OF CREATION" (Mk. 10:6; Mat. 19:4).

God did many things before creation (John 17:24, 5; Rom. 8:29; 1 Pet. 1:20; Eph. 1:4) and His children shall "endure forever" (Ps. 39:36) enjoying God eternally through an "everlasting covenant" (Gen. 17:7), "established forever." So the Bible teaches that God is in time. And a foundation of the Settled View is seen to be heavily based on human philosophy and contradicted by the entirety of the relevant biblical material.

By Bob Enyart, KGOV.com &
Pastor, Denver Bible Church

Clete
March 12th, 2016, 08:08 PM
And since Samie seems hung up on Total Depravity, lets kick that leg out from under him as well with another excellent example of a real argument (i.e. not proof texting)...

The following in the complete text of an article posted on another website. It is not my intention to endorse the other website or even advertise for it. I give a link to it only so as to give credit to the author...


Three Arguments Against Total Depravity (http://lhim.org/blog/2014/02/06/three-arguments-against-total-depravity/)
February 6th, 2014 by Matt Elton (http://lhim.org/blog/author/matt-elton/)

Total depravity is the first of the five points of Calvinism. Paul Washer defines total depravity as the doctrine that “fallen man is unable is to love, obey or please God.” Total depravity teaches that an unsaved man is completely incapable of loving or obeying God. It is also known as total inability.

Paul writes that without Christ we are “slaves to sin” (Romans 6:20) and “dead in trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1). The Bible certainly teaches that human beings are depraved – we inherit a sinful nature that tempts us to do evil. We have all committed sin and therefore stand guilty before God, deserving of death (Romans 6:23). “There are none righteous, no, not one” (Romans 3:10). Without Christ, we are depraved sinners in need of a savior. But Calvinism takes this to such an extreme as to say that human beings utterly incapable of believing in, obeying, or pleasing God. By doing so, Calvinists remove free will from the equation. If we are not capable of making a free will decision to follow Christ, salvation cannot be on athe basis of free will, and must instead be on the basis of God choosing who is and is not save

Total depravity is the foundation upon which the five points of Calvinism (TULIP) stand. In Calvinism, unconditional election (the doctrine that God predetermined who will and will not be saved) and irresistible grace (the doctrine that God chooses who will be saved and man is not able to resist or exercise any choice in the matter) are only necessary because of total depravity – man is completely incapable of choosing God, therefore God must do everything for man. These views inevitably lead to the doctrine of limited atonement, the view that Christ did not die for the sins of the world (despite 1 Jon 2:2), but only the sins of the “elect,” those predetermined by God to be saved.

Remove total depravity from the picture and the whole structure of Calvinism collapses. If man is capable of choosing God, salvation does not need to be predetermined by God, and can be on the basis of our free will decision to believe in Jesus Christ (Romans 10:9-10).

Unfortunately many Protestants take the doctrine for granted and fail to examine it critically. Here are three arguments against the doctrine of total depravity.

Argument #1: Total Depravity is a New Doctrine Based on Old Gnosticism

The doctrine of total depravity developed about 500 years ago. None of the church fathers believed in it – they all strongly affirmed that man has the power to choose good or evil. Here are a few quotations from second century church fathers:



“Let some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever occurs happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Now, if this is not so, but all things happen by fate, then neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it is predetermined that this man will be good, and this other man will be evil, neither is the first one meritorious nor the latter man to be blamed. And again, unless the human race has the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions.” -Justin Martyr (100-165 A.D.)

“We were not created to die. Rather, we die by our own fault. Our free will has destroyed us. We who were free have become slaves. We have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God. We ourselves have manifested wickedness. But we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it.” -Tatian (120-180 A.D.)

“There is, therefore, nothing to hinder you from changing your evil manner to life, because you are a free man” -Melito (2nd century)

“But man, being endowed with reason, and in this respect similar to God, having been made free in his will, and with power over himself, is himself his own cause that sometimes he becomes wheat, and sometimes chaff.” -Ireneus (130-202 A.D.)

“I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power…For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will…Man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance.” -Tertullian (160-225 A.D.)

Calvinists rely solely on their interpretation of Paul’s writings to provide biblical support for total depravity. If Paul actually taught total depravity, why did Paul’s own disciples and those who came shortly after him strongly deny the doctrine?

There is no question that Paul teaches the depravity of fallen man. We are “dead” (guilty, deserving of death, as good as dead) in our sins. We are “slaves to sin” (it is the natural inclination of our flesh). There is no question that we have a sinful nature – the issue is whether or not it makes us completely incapable of loving God or obeying His will. All of the early church fathers agree that man has the ability within himself to obey and love God.


“The Christian church in the 2nd century AD had nothing resembling the doctrine of original sin as many post-Reformation Christians know it today. The Apostolic Fathers had little to say on the subject… Only Barnabas of the Apostolic Fathers references the Fall, and he believed that children were born sinless. The authors of this early period believed universally that children were born innocent of the sin of Adam, that people incur guilt only for their own sins, and that every person has the God-given power of free will to do good or evil…. These early Christians actually understood the original Christian message well, but many modern scholars misunderstand it due to the widespread influence of post-Reformation theology. The Apostolic Fathers believed they followed the teachings of St. Paul and the Apostles closely, as many of their writings explain. Furthermore, they had a much better prospect of correctly understanding the original Christian teaching, as they had been taught by the Apostles or by those that followed them, wrote in the same language and had a very similar culture. There is no reason to believe that the Apostolic Fathers failed to understand Christianity, and many reasons to think they preserved faithfully the doctrines of the earliest Christians.” -Andrew J. Wallace and R.D. Rusk, Moral Transformation: The Original Christian Paradigm of Salvation, p. 255

The only “church father” who believed anything close to total depravity is Augustine, though he did not develop the doctrine as far as Calvin did. Augustine is responsible for introducing the idea of original sin into the church, a doctrine that did not exist in orthodox Christianity before him, though it did exist in Gnoticism.

Augustine’s “original sin” theology is heavily influenced by Gnosticism. It is a sad irony that “original sin” theology became accepted in the western church (though not the eastern church) because it is the same doctrine taught by the Gnostics who earlier church fathers went to great lengths to counter. The Gnostics believed that our flesh is inherently evil, that we inherit total depravity from birth, and that we are sinners from birth simply because we possess depraved human flesh. They saw the spirit as good, but trapped inside a prison of evil flesh until freed by death.

Because Gnostics believed the material world to be inherently evil, they denied that Jesus Christ was truly human, possessing a real flesh and blood body, because this would mean that Christ possessed an inherently evil nature.

During the first and second centuries, Christians writers were constantly battling Gnosticism, which was condemned as a heresy. The Apostle John counters Gnosticism in his first epistle by emphasizing that Jesus Christ came “in the flesh” and that anyone who denies this is “antichrist.” We would do well to heed his warning!


“Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.” -1 John 4:3-4

Argument #2: Christ’s Humanity Disproves Total Depravity

This is the biggest problem with total depravity, and one that has been pointed out by many scholars. It is sometimes called the problem of the incarnation. All orthodox Christians must affirm that Jesus Christ was fully human, otherwise he could not die for the sins of humanity (1 John 2:2) and could not be our mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5).

But if human beings are totally depraved by nature and sinful from birth, this means Jesus Christ was necessarily totally depraved and sinful. This is obviously not the case because scripture says Jesus Christ was sinless, or he could not be our sacrifice (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Calvinists will counter this by arguing that Jesus Christ is God, and therefore, although he became human at the incarnation, he did not share in our depravity.

There are two problems with this. First, scripture says that Jesus was “made like his brothers in every respect” (Hebrews 2:17 ESV). If Jesus was made like us in every way this would include sharing in our depravity.

The second problem with this view is that Jesus was tempted. This by itself proves that Jesus had the same human nature we do, because scripture says that temptation comes from “our own desires” which originate from our human nature (James 1:14).

Scripture is clear that the temptation of Jesus was not a meaningless charade, but was real, serious temptation. Scripture says he “in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin” (Hebrews 4:15 ESV).

If Jesus was tempted in the exact same way we are, this by itself disproves total depravity. If we are totally depraved, the only way for Jesus to be tempted in the same way that we are tempted is if he was also totally depraved. But this is clearly not the case because Jesus never sinned. Therefore, we cannot be totally depraved.

There are only two possible alternatives to this:

Jesus did sin.
Jesus was not fully human and/or was not tempted in the same way we are.

Both of these alternatives contradict scripture!

The humanity of Christ proves depravity, but disproves total depravity. The temptation of Christ proves depravity (he shared in our fallen human nature, otherwise he could not have been tempted). But the sinless life of Christ disproves total depravity (he never sinned, therefore depravity cannot be total).

No matter how one looks at it, total depravity is fundamentally at odds with the humanity of Jesus Christ. This should be reason enough for us to reject it as an acceptable doctrine!

Argument #3: Total Depravity Elevates Man by Excusing His Sin

Calvinists often describe total depravity as a “low view of man, high view of God.” However, when taken to its logical conclusion, total depravity actually elevates man by excusing his sin.

As we have seen, early church fathers like Justin Martyr and Tertullian argued against total depravity because they saw it as excusing man’s sin. In their view, Jesus would soon return to “repay each person according to what he has done” (Matthew 16:27). By necessity, this requires that human beings have the ability to choose good or choose evil. If we do not have this ability – if we are incapable of choosing good – then it logically follows that we cannot be justly held responsible for our evil. This is the reason why people can be found “not guilty on reasons of insanity” in the court of law. Without a meaningful free will ability to choose good or evil, one cannot be justly held responsible.

At the heart of the issue of total depravity is the question: What is sin?

The Calvinist view of sin is the same as that of the Gnostics. According to this view, sin is an invisible disease that is transmitted by birth. Human flesh totally depraved by its very nature, so everyone born in the flesh is already a sinner, even before do any actions. According to Calvinism, if a baby dies immediately after birth he goes straight to hell, even though he actually never did anything wrong in his short life!

Those views come straight out of Gnosticism. It was the Gnostics who believed that flesh is inherently evil and totally depraved. David, on the other hand says, “I am fearfully and wonderfully made” (Psalm 139:14).

God doesn’t make garbage. He doesn’t make depraved, demented beings who are incapable of loving Him. Why would He?

God only makes perfect things. God created us to be perfect, 100% valuable, 100% worthy of love. We are not born sinners. We choose to be sinners through our actions. We become guilty and deserving of death because we choose to be.

How sad and humbling is this truth! Every person who has ever come of age – with the exception of Jesus – has chosen sin. “There are none righteous, no, not one” (Romans 3:10).

The biblical view of sin is that sin is action. Sin is not a curse that spreads from one person to another against their will. Sin is not a disease we inherited against our will – if it were, we couldn’t be held responsible for it, we would be victims rather than perpetuators. The biblical view places the blame for sin on us, not on God. The Calvinist view teaches that God makes people evil with no ability to do good, and then punishes them for being that way!

I’m not denying that we inherit from Adam a sinful nature that desires sinful things. But the sinful nature is not the same as sin itself. Our sinful nature tempts us to sin, but we also have the free will ability to choose to resist that nature.

Sin is defined in scripture as a violation of God’s commandments. It has everything to do with free will. Paul writes that the Law reveals to us what sin is (Romans 7:7). The Law defines sin in terms of free will actions: “Thou shalt… thou shalt not…” We are “dead in trespasses and sins” for the simple reason that we’ve committed trespasses and sins. We’ve chosen sinful actions. As a result, we stand completely guilty before God, dead in sin, in desperate need of a savior.

We have to be careful about any theology that begins in response to another theology, because there is always a tendency to swing the pendulum to the complete opposite extreme. Luther developed a theology of salvation “by faith alone” in response to works-based theology, but took it to such an extreme that works played no role at all and he even wanted to remove the Book of James from the Bible.

Calvinism is a response to Pelagianism, a doctrine that emphasizes man’s ability to be righteous. John Calvin saw Pelagianism as infecting the Catholic church, and he considered it a man centered theology. Many of his criticisms were good, but he swung the pendulum to such an extreme as to say that salvation is entirely predetermined and carried out by God, and man does nothing because he is totally depraved and unable.

While I respect Calvinism’s desire to magnify God and humble man, when Calvinism is taken to its logical conclusion it actually backfires and ends up doing the opposite.

The biblical view of depravity is indeed a low view of man – we freely choose sin, so we have no one to blame but ourselves. But total depravity actually elevates man by taking the blame off of him. Saying, as Paul Washer does, that “fallen man is unable to love, obey or please God” takes the blame off of man and places it on the one who made man! The early church fathers recognized this, which is why they argued that man is not totally depraved and does have the ability to choose righteousness.

Instead of humbling me, the doctrine of total depravity causes me relief because it means my sins are not really my fault – God never gave me the ability to do otherwise. But the biblical view of depravity humbles me to the point of anguish. God created me to be perfect, but by my own free will I chose sin. I am to blame. How humbling is this truth!

Consider the opposite of total depravity. What if we are not totally incapable, but totally capable? Consider the implications. What if we are, in fact, 100% capable of total holiness and righteousness? This means that every man is able to live a perfectly sinless life if he simply chooses to… yet no one has ever done so (save Jesus)!

I think this is a much lower view of man, because it means we are literally without excuse. We have the ability to be sinless. We choose from our free will not to be.

I can’t pass the buck and say “I was totally depraved, it was my nature to sin, I was incapable of doing otherwise, God had to rescue me from my depraved state.” I can’t play the victim. That excuse doesn’t work if total depravity is false.

If total depravity is false, every person who ever lived had the ability to be perfectly sinless, yet out of literally billions of people, not even one person ever chose it, save Jesus. How humbling is that! How perfectly that fits with Romans 3!

Christ dying to save totally depraved people who are incapable of holiness demonstrates more pity than love. How much more love and grace did Christ demonstrate by dying to save people who had every ability to be perfect, but chose not to be? How much less do those people deserve God’s grace?

By being fully human and living a sinless life, Jesus puts us all to shame. He had the same human nature we have, yet he never sinned. He proves through his sinless life that we are truly without excuse.

Now that is a high view of God, and low view of man!

T down. ULIP to go.

Bociferous
March 12th, 2016, 08:16 PM
I'll take a shot Samie,


The 5 Pillars of the Gospel Ė a better alternative to Arminianism and Calvinism.
1. Spiritual Empowerment
2. Unconditional Election of Adamís Race
3. Perfect & Complete Redemption
4. Guidance of the Holy Spirit
5. Repentance & Overcoming1. Spiritual Empowerment . Contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of Christ, all of Adam's race came to existence into this world spiritually alive, that is, born with the capability to do spiritual acts, given the opportunity to do so. Each one is given faith, for without faith it is impossible to please God.
I agree based on Jn 1:9 and common logic (all have moral capability which is a spiritual function; thus all are enlightened.


2. Unconditional Election of Adamís Race. By Godís grace given us in Christ before time began, God chose all of Adamís race and predestined them for adoption as children by Jesus Christ. God foreknew that man will fall into sin, and He implemented the plan of redemption right after man first fell into sin: Instead of Adam dying, an animal died that day Adam sinned, foreshadowing the death on the cross of the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world.
Again, agree....though to my thinking God foresaw the fall and the rescue of all from the fall would have been part of the plan from the beginning. Minor point. I am a believer in total depravity.


3. Perfect & Complete Redemption. On the cross, God fashioned all of Adamís race into the body of His Son, creating a new man Ė Christ the Head, Adamís race the Body. When the Head died, the Body died with Him, and Adamís race was forgiven from all sins and reconciled to God. When the Head resurrected, the Body was made alive together with Him, born again into a living hope of life eternal. Attached to the Head, they all are heaven-bound UNLESS detached from the Body by Christ Himself.
I find the metaphoric element cumbersome [and I'm a staunch believer that salvation can only be properly understood in its allegoric sense!] but if I can properly reduce #3 into two parts:
A. The atonement covers all humans, and,
B. All are saved unless some set of circumstances occurs to 'detach' some...
Then I agree with A completely and with B with certain qualifications.


4. Guidance of the Holy Spirit. Throughout the lifetime of an individual, the Holy Spirit guides and coaches him, being part of the body, to live in accordance with the will of the Head. Attached to the Head Who is his life and strength, he has His Power to do what He wants Him to do. A person is free to decide whether to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit or not. God through Christ will decide who followed the guidance of the Holy Spirit. They are the ones who in their lifetime persevered to overcome evil with good.
There's the 'head/body' thing again. It does appear you're taking the Calvinist view here. Is this correct?


5. Repentance & Overcoming. The call to repent is a call to overcome evil with good. Only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life where names of all were written from the foundation of the world. When Christ comes again to reward every man according to what each has done, those whose names remained written in the book of life will inherit life eternal; all others will be made to suffer the wrath of God, and finally, thrown into the lake of fire.
We're probably a bit further apart on this one. Christ's call to repentance includes an offer and exhortation to overcome evil, but I don't see the salvation of faith as dependent on overcoming all the evil in one's life else works rules the day. Read Rom 7 for example.

I agree that those blotted out of the book of life are headed into the lake of fire, but am pretty certain we have different views of what the outcome of all this is.

So...are you a Calvinist? You're right that your presentation doesn't land strictly on the side of Arminianism or Calvinism, but at the end of the day the above comes across as sort of a renegade Calvinist position. I like that you seem to formulate a view that lands somewhat outside the box.

Samie
March 12th, 2016, 09:20 PM
I'll take a shot Samie,


I agree based on Jn 1:9 and common logic (all have moral capability which is a spiritual function; thus all are enlightened.


Again, agree....though to my thinking God foresaw the fall and the rescue of all from the fall would have been part of the plan from the beginning. Minor point. I am a believer in total depravity.


I find the metaphoric element cumbersome [and I'm a staunch believer that salvation can only be properly understood in its allegoric sense!] but if I can properly reduce #3 into two parts:
A. The atonement covers all humans, and,
B. All are saved unless some set of circumstances occurs to 'detach' some...
Then I agree with A completely and with B with certain qualifications.


There's the 'head/body' thing again. It does appear you're taking the Calvinist view here. Is this correct?


We're probably a bit further apart on this one. Christ's call to repentance includes an offer and exhortation to overcome evil, but I don't see the salvation of faith as dependent on overcoming all the evil in one's life else works rules the day. Read Rom 7 for example.

I agree that those blotted out of the book of life are headed into the lake of fire, but am pretty certain we have different views of what the outcome of all this is.

So...are you a Calvinist? You're right that your presentation doesn't land strictly on the side of Arminianism or Calvinism, but at the end of the day the above comes across as sort of a renegade Calvinist position. I like that you seem to formulate a view that lands somewhat outside the box.Thanks, Bociferous.

First, I am not a Calvinist, nor a renegade one. Calvinists don't believe in blotting out of names from the book of life. I do. Calvinists doubt the existence of the book of life. I don't. Calvinists don't preach free-will. I do. Calvinists believe in a limited atonement. I don't. Calvinists steps hard on the accelerator down the floor when speaking about Total Depravity. I step hard on the accelerator down the floor when speaking about Total Spiritual Enlightenment.

Second, I am not an Arminian, as well. Arminians believe in a general but conditional atonement. I believe in a general, unconditional, unlimited and actual atonement.

And finally, what am I? I simply see myself as one of those who feel it their solemn responsibility to preach the gospel Jesus wanted preached. The world had been for centuries bombarded with both Arminian and Calvinist brands of gospel. I simply think it is high time to tell the world the gospel Jesus wanted preached to the world before He comes again (Matt 24:14). And maybe, just maybe, our Lord and Savior can then come to claim His own: those whose names remained written in the registry of heaven, the Book of Life.

Samie
March 12th, 2016, 09:44 PM
Since you want to proof text, here's 97 verses the prove (according to your own standard) that Open Theism is true (and therefore that your doctrine is silly)...
. . .

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. Thanks goes to ApologeticJedi for compiling most (all but the last two) this list back in '07Thanks for stopping by again, Clete.

Do you know what my silly doctrine is, brother? If Yes, then what is it?

Bociferous
March 13th, 2016, 08:10 AM
I am not a Calvinist, nor a renegade one. Calvinists don't believe in blotting out of names from the book of life. I do. Calvinists doubt the existence of the book of life. I don't. Calvinists don't preach free-will. I do. Calvinists believe in a limited atonement. I don't. Calvinists steps hard on the accelerator down the floor when speaking about Total Depravity. I step hard on the accelerator down the floor when speaking about Total Spiritual Enlightenment.
Second, I am not an Arminian, as well. Arminians believe in a general but conditional atonement. I believe in a general, unconditional, unlimited and actual atonement.
I'm not sure what you mean about Arminian "general but conditional atonement". I've usually heard it argued that Arminians believe in a universal atonement (Christ died for all) that has a conditional outcome (choose Christ's offer of eternal life or not). If the terms "universal" and "general" are interchangeable then we're just using different words to state the same thing.

So you've taken concepts from both camps and pieced them together, some from each, to make a theological picture. What, in your theology, happens to those cast into the lake of fire?

Samie
March 13th, 2016, 09:19 AM
. . .

So you've taken concepts from both camps and pieced them together, some from each, to make a theological picture.No. I am not an academician. I am not trained in the seminaries. I learned my theology from my personal study of the Bible. I gained knowledge regarding Arminianism and Calvinism from web discussions, and that motivated me to read relevant documents from cyberspace. I have already pieced together my points of view gained from Scriptures a couple of years before coming across Arminianism and Calvinism.

What, in your theology, happens to those cast into the lake of fire?I can only refer you back to Scriptures that tell us the lake of fire is the second death. And if death, then it annihilates all thrown into it.

Bociferous
March 13th, 2016, 10:21 AM
I wasn't suggesting you were an academic Samie. We all have a personal theology. Some just buy wholesale into one traditional theology or another but many of us formulate our own from a variety of existing teachings.

I kind of suspected you were getting at some form of Annihilationism. Thanks for clarifying.

Samie
March 13th, 2016, 10:46 AM
You are welcome, brother.

Clete
March 13th, 2016, 01:35 PM
Thanks for stopping by again, Clete.

Do you know what my silly doctrine is, brother? If Yes, then what is it?

It is this rediculous nonsense that wants to cling to Calvinist premises and reject the logical conclusions that follow...



1. Spiritual Empowerment . Contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of Christ, all of Adam's race came to existence into this world spiritually alive, that is, born with the capability to do spiritual acts, given the opportunity to do so. Each one is given faith, for without faith it is impossible to please God.

2. Unconditional Election of Adam’s Race. By God’s grace given us in Christ before time began, God chose all of Adam’s race and predestined them for adoption as children by Jesus Christ. God foreknew that man will fall into sin, and He implemented the plan of redemption right after man first fell into sin: Instead of Adam dying, an animal died that day Adam sinned, foreshadowing the death on the cross of the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world.

3. Perfect & Complete Redemption. On the cross, God fashioned all of Adam’s race into the body of His Son, creating a new man – Christ the Head, Adam’s race the Body. When the Head died, the Body died with Him, and Adam’s race was forgiven from all sins and reconciled to God. When the Head resurrected, the Body was made alive together with Him, born again into a living hope of life eternal. Attached to the Head, they all are heaven-bound UNLESS detached from the Body by Christ Himself.

4. Guidance of the Holy Spirit. Throughout the lifetime of an individual, the Holy Spirit guides and coaches him, being part of the body, to live in accordance with the will of the Head. Attached to the Head Who is his life and strength, he has His Power to do what He wants Him to do. A person is free to decide whether to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit or not. God through Christ will decide who followed the guidance of the Holy Spirit. They are the ones who in their lifetime persevered to overcome evil with good.

5. Repentance & Overcoming. The call to repent is a call to overcome evil with good. Only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life where names of all were written from the foundation of the world. When Christ comes again to reward every man according to what each has done, those whose names remained written in the book of life will inherit life eternal; all others will be made to suffer the wrath of God, and finally, thrown into the lake of fire.

You just simply don't get to eat your cake and have it too! You can want to really really badly but it won't help! You bought every single premise upon which Calvinism is built (and you are thus a Calvinist whether you like the title or not) and you want really really badly to pretend that you can do that and not have to live with the consequences. Well the sand doesn't disappear just because your choose to bury your head in it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete
March 13th, 2016, 01:53 PM
Samie,

Calvinism (i.e. Reformed Augustinianism) is derived logically from the following premises...


God is immutable. (And they mean immutable!) God cannot change in anyway at all - period.
Man is totally depraved. This is the first of the TULIP doctrines and for good reason.


There are actually others, most of which you accept as true as well, but for the purposes of this thread, those two will do.

Which of those two premises do you deny, if any?

And one further question...

Do men sin because they're sinful or are we sinful because we sin?

These are not trick questions, and this is not a trap. Don't be scared. Just answer honestly.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Samie
March 13th, 2016, 08:10 PM
It is this rediculous nonsense that wants to cling to Calvinist premises and reject the logical conclusions that follow...



1. Spiritual Empowerment . Contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of Christ, all of Adam's race came to existence into this world spiritually alive, that is, born with the capability to do spiritual acts, given the opportunity to do so. Each one is given faith, for without faith it is impossible to please God.

2. Unconditional Election of Adamís Race. By Godís grace given us in Christ before time began, God chose all of Adamís race and predestined them for adoption as children by Jesus Christ. God foreknew that man will fall into sin, and He implemented the plan of redemption right after man first fell into sin: Instead of Adam dying, an animal died that day Adam sinned, foreshadowing the death on the cross of the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world.

3. Perfect & Complete Redemption. On the cross, God fashioned all of Adamís race into the body of His Son, creating a new man Ė Christ the Head, Adamís race the Body. When the Head died, the Body died with Him, and Adamís race was forgiven from all sins and reconciled to God. When the Head resurrected, the Body was made alive together with Him, born again into a living hope of life eternal. Attached to the Head, they all are heaven-bound UNLESS detached from the Body by Christ Himself.

4. Guidance of the Holy Spirit. Throughout the lifetime of an individual, the Holy Spirit guides and coaches him, being part of the body, to live in accordance with the will of the Head. Attached to the Head Who is his life and strength, he has His Power to do what He wants Him to do. A person is free to decide whether to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit or not. God through Christ will decide who followed the guidance of the Holy Spirit. They are the ones who in their lifetime persevered to overcome evil with good.

5. Repentance & Overcoming. The call to repent is a call to overcome evil with good. Only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life where names of all were written from the foundation of the world. When Christ comes again to reward every man according to what each has done, those whose names remained written in the book of life will inherit life eternal; all others will be made to suffer the wrath of God, and finally, thrown into the lake of fire.

You just simply don't get to eat your cake and have it too! You can want to really really badly but it won't help! You bought every single premise upon which Calvinism is built (and you are thus a Calvinist whether you like the title or not) and you want really really badly to pretend that you can do that and not have to live with the consequences. Well the sand doesn't disappear just because your choose to bury your head in it.

Resting in Him,
CleteHi Clete. Welcome once again to my thread.

First, don't forget that I properly addressed the former issue we had here in this post (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116860-An-Alternative-to-Arminianism-and-Calvinism&p=4646987&viewfull=1#post4646987) and did not bury my head in the sand as you would like to make it appear now. That response caused you to retreat from discussing with me. You even waved good-bye (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116860-An-Alternative-to-Arminianism-and-Calvinism&p=4647274&viewfull=1#post4647274), remember? I was thinking you're not coming back. But you did come back. And I welcome you.

Second, I want you to know again, that I am NOT a Calvinist (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116948-Arminians-amp-Calvinists-Limit-God-s-Power-To-Save&p=4648407&viewfull=1#post4648407). So if there is anything you have against Calvinism or the Calvinists, take it up with them. But you can ask me any question related to the OP and I will engage you in a healthy discussion.

Clete
March 14th, 2016, 03:23 PM
Hi Clete. Welcome once again to my thread.

First, don't forget that I properly addressed the former issue we had here in this post (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116860-An-Alternative-to-Arminianism-and-Calvinism&p=4646987&viewfull=1#post4646987) and did not bury my head in the sand as you would like to make it appear now.

You addressed nothing! As I have now proven, proof texting is not an argument. You haven't even acknowledge the issue, never mind addressed it. I'd be very much surprised to discover that you even understand the issue in the first place. In fact, I'm certain that you do not.


That response caused you to retreat from discussing with me. You even waved good-bye (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116860-An-Alternative-to-Arminianism-and-Calvinism&p=4647274&viewfull=1#post4647274), remember? I was thinking you're not coming back. But you did come back. And I welcome you.
I reserve the right to change course. You seem new here. I figured I'd give the benefit of the doubt. It will prove to be a waste of time.


Second, I want you to know again, that I am NOT a Calvinist (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116948-Arminians-amp-Calvinists-Limit-God-s-Power-To-Save&p=4648407&viewfull=1#post4648407).
Look idiot! I understand that you don't call yourself a Calvinist! Good greif! Does every single point have to spelled out in the clearest detail with you? It's like talking to a third grader!

You are FOR ALL INTENT AND PURPOSES a Calvinist! You don't like it, but that doesn't change the facts of life! You have, whether you acknowledge it or not, accepted every major premise of the Calvinist theological worldview. You come to a lot of different conclusions but that's only because you fancy yourself smarter than John Calvin and Aurelius Augustinus Hipponensis and I can assure you that you are not! You buy the premise, you buy the conclusion or you have an irrational doctrine (as though Calvinism wasn't already irrational enough!). That's the way sound reason works.


So if there is anything you have against Calvinism or the Calvinists, take it up with them. But you can ask me any question related to the OP and I will engage you in a healthy discussion.
My problem is with YOUR doctrine as stated in the opening post. If you'll reread my first post in this thread, you'll find that I challenged you then on the PREMISES of your doctrine. Your response was to proof text me to death. If you want to engage in an actual, substantive debate then engaging the premises upon which your doctrine is based is the only basis upon which there is to proceed because you can turn any text in the bible into a pretext for a doctrine. Proof texting proves nothing! Jesus DID NOT teach your doctrine, no matter how many times you want to post your favorite verse.

If you don't want to engage the debate and are instead interested in spreading your childish stupidity you call a theology around, then just say so, or post anything in response to this post that smells even a little bit like proof-texting and you won't ever have to bother with responding to me on this thread again.

Now, will you answer my questions or not?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Grosnick Marowbe
March 14th, 2016, 03:36 PM
You addressed nothing! As I have now proven, proof texting is not an argument. You haven't even acknowledge the issue, never mind addressed it. I'd be very much surprised to discover that you even understand the issue in the first place. In fact, I'm certain that you do not.


I reserve the right to change course. You seem new here. I figured I'd give the benefit of the doubt. It will prove to be a waste of time.


Look idiot! I understand that you don't call yourself a Calvinist! Good greif! Does every single point have to spelled out in the clearest detail with you? It's like talking to a third grader!

You are FOR ALL INTENT AND PURPOSES a Calvinist! You don't like it, but that doesn't change the facts of life! You have, whether you acknowledge it or not, accepted every major premise of the Calvinist theological worldview. You come to a lot of different conclusions but that's only because you fancy yourself smarter than John Calvin and Aurelius Augustinus Hipponensis and I can assure you that you are not! You buy the premise, you buy the conclusion or you have an irrational doctrine (as though Calvinism wasn't already irrational enough!). That's the way sound reason works.


My problem is with YOUR doctrine as stated in the opening post. If you'll reread my first post in this thread, you'll find that I challenged you then on the PREMISES of your doctrine. Your response was to proof text me to death. If you want to engage in an actual, substantive debate then engaging the premises upon which your doctrine is based is the only basis upon which there is to proceed because you can turn any text in the bible into a pretext for a doctrine. Proof texting proves nothing! Jesus DID NOT teach your doctrine, no matter how many times you want to post your favorite verse.

If you don't want to engage the debate and are instead interested in spreading your childish stupidity you call a theology around, then just say so, or post anything in response to this post that smells even a little bit like proof-texting and you won't ever have to bother with responding to me on this thread again.

Now, will you answer my questions or not?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Excellent post. He's a Calvinist, that's for certain.

genuineoriginal
March 14th, 2016, 04:32 PM
1. Spiritual Empowerment . Contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of Christ, all of Adam's race came to existence into this world spiritually alive, that is, born with the capability to do spiritual acts, given the opportunity to do so. Each one is given faith, for without faith it is impossible to please God.
Mankind has had "Spiritual Empowerment" since the beginning.

Genesis 3:22
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Genesis 4:7
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

2. Unconditional Election of Adamís Race. By Godís grace given us in Christ before time began, God chose all of Adamís race and predestined them for adoption as children by Jesus Christ. God foreknew that man will fall into sin, and He implemented the plan of redemption right after man first fell into sin: Instead of Adam dying, an animal died that day Adam sinned, foreshadowing the death on the cross of the Lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world.
Salvation and the adoption is conditional, and happens after believing.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

3. Perfect & Complete Redemption. On the cross, God fashioned all of Adamís race into the body of His Son, creating a new man Ė Christ the Head, Adamís race the Body. When the Head died, the Body died with Him, and Adamís race was forgiven from all sins and reconciled to God. When the Head resurrected, the Body was made alive together with Him, born again into a living hope of life eternal. Attached to the Head, they all are heaven-bound UNLESS detached from the Body by Christ Himself.
Redemption is not salvation, as shown by the people redeemed from Egypt who did not make it to the land of promise.

Exodus 15:13
13 Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.

Numbers 32:13
13 And the Lord'S anger was kindled against Israel, and he made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until all the generation, that had done evil in the sight of the Lord, was consumed.

4. Guidance of the Holy Spirit. Throughout the lifetime of an individual, the Holy Spirit guides and coaches him, being part of the body, to live in accordance with the will of the Head. Attached to the Head Who is his life and strength, he has His Power to do what He wants Him to do. A person is free to decide whether to follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit or not. God through Christ will decide who followed the guidance of the Holy Spirit. They are the ones who in their lifetime persevered to overcome evil with good.
Guidance of the Holy Spirit is not a requirement for doing the will of God.
Seeking the Lord and following after righteousness can be done by anyone that chooses to do so.

Isaiah 51
1 Hearken to me, ye that follow after righteousness, ye that seek the Lord: look unto the rock whence ye are hewn, and to the hole of the pit whence ye are digged.

5. Repentance & Overcoming. The call to repent is a call to overcome evil with good. Only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life where names of all were written from the foundation of the world. When Christ comes again to reward every man according to what each has done, those whose names remained written in the book of life will inherit life eternal; all others will be made to suffer the wrath of God, and finally, thrown into the lake of fire.
Nobody is automatically written into the Book of Life.
Only those that fear the Lord and follow after righteousness are written in the Book of Life.

Malachi 3:16-18
16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.
17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him.
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Samie
March 14th, 2016, 04:33 PM
. . .
Now, will you answer my questions or not?

Resting in Him,
CleteHi Clete;

I want to remind you that you have not yet addressed post #21 (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116860-An-Alternative-to-Arminianism-and-Calvinism&p=4646987&viewfull=1#post4646987). You instead waved goodbye (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116860-An-Alternative-to-Arminianism-and-Calvinism&p=4647274&viewfull=1#post4647274).

But I will answer all your questions and objections AGAINST my position spelled out in the OP. We will tackle each question or objection you have to its logical end, one at a time, so as not to clutter this thread with unresolved issues.

But since I simply base my position in the infallible word of God, the Holy Scriptures, don't get bothered if my responses will include verses that prove my point. Nor will I be bothered with your responses should they be DEVOID of Scriptures.

The only problem is who is the final arbiter. For me it should be the Bible. I hope you agree that the Bible must be the final arbiter, too, won't you, brother?

Now, spell out your first question or objection AGAINST the OP. Keep it brief and straight to the point.

Samie
March 14th, 2016, 05:53 PM
. . .
Salvation and the adoption is conditional, and happens after believing.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
. . .While NOT saved, man is NOT in Christ, and therefore dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). Explain how a man while NOT in Christ and hence dead, is able to believe. Can you?

genuineoriginal
March 14th, 2016, 07:44 PM
While NOT saved, man is NOT in Christ, and therefore dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). Explain how a man while NOT in Christ and hence dead, is able to believe. Can you?
You are mistaking our future condition without Christ (dead in the lake of fire) with our current condition (life in this world).

John 12:25
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Samie
March 15th, 2016, 03:49 AM
You are mistaking our future condition without Christ (dead in the lake of fire) with our current condition (life in this world).

John 12:25
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.In John 15:5, Jesus was speaking to His disciples, not to those headed for the lake of fire. If apart from Him, His disciples can do NOTHING, are we better off than His disciples, that apart from Christ, we can do SOMETHING? I don't think so, do you?

fzappa13
March 15th, 2016, 05:34 AM
Kinda funny ... the grace only crew being out graced by Samie ... kinda.

genuineoriginal
March 15th, 2016, 12:35 PM
In John 15:5, Jesus was speaking to His disciples, not to those headed for the lake of fire. If apart from Him, His disciples can do NOTHING, are we better off than His disciples, that apart from Christ, we can do SOMETHING? I don't think so, do you?
I think you just proved that you can be an idiot apart from Christ, which is something.

Here is another verse to think about.

Mark 9:23
23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

The ability to believe or disbelieve is given to all men, and is a fundamental part of the free will God gave to all men.

Samie
March 15th, 2016, 03:57 PM
I think you just proved that you can be an idiot apart from Christ, which is something.Funny thing is this idiot believes Christ's words that apart from Him, this idiot can do NOTHING, while the originally genuine geniuses are NOT able to but instead insist that apart from Christ, they can do SOMETHING. Wisdom of this world?


Here is another verse to think about.

Mark 9:23
23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

The ability to believe or disbelieve is given to all men, and is a fundamental part of the free will God gave to all men.Are you then saying that God also gave the ability to believe to those yet apart from Christ? If Yes, then ponder this:

To believe is to exercise faith. Faith is fruit of the Spirit. Jesus told His disciples that apart from Him, they cannot bear fruit, and so can't have faith. Are we now better off than the disciples we can bear fruit apart from Christ?

genuineoriginal
March 15th, 2016, 04:35 PM
Funny thing is this idiot believes Christ's words that apart from Him, this idiot can do NOTHING, while the originally genuine geniuses are NOT able to but instead insist that apart from Christ, they can do SOMETHING. Wisdom of this world?
Yes, you are showing the wisdom of the world and not the wisdom of God.


Are you then saying that God also gave the ability to believe to those yet apart from Christ?
Yes.


If Yes, then ponder this:

To believe is to exercise faith. Faith is fruit of the Spirit. Jesus told His disciples that apart from Him, they cannot bear fruit, and so can't have faith. Are we now better off than the disciples we can bear fruit apart from Christ?
I've heard something like that before.


Why are firetrucks red?
1 and 1 are 2
2 and 2 are 4
3 times 4 is 12
There are 12 inches in a foot
12 inches are in a ruler
A Czar is a ruler
A Czar is Russian
Russians are red
A firetruck is red because it is always rushing (Russian)

Chaining together logical statements does not make the conclusion true.

So, lets go to the first occurrence of "believe" in the Bible, following the First Mention Principle (http://www.biblestudy.org/beginner/definition-of-christian-terms/first-mention-principle.html).


Genesis 15:1-6
1 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

God rewarded Abram for believing.

Now contrast this to what happened with the children of Israel.

Deuteronomy 9:23-25
23 Likewise when the Lord sent you from Kadeshbarnea, saying, Go up and possess the land which I have given you; then ye rebelled against the commandment of the Lord your God, and ye believed him not, nor hearkened to his voice.
24 Ye have been rebellious against the Lord from the day that I knew you.
25 Thus I fell down before the Lord forty days and forty nights, as I fell down at the first; because the Lord had said he would destroy you.

God was going to destroy the children of Israel for refusing to believe until the petition of Moses changed His mind.

According to you, the children of Israel could not rebel against God's commandment unless they were in Christ.
Your foolishness has blinded you to the truth.

Ktoyou
March 15th, 2016, 05:12 PM
Thanks for the well-thought out yet unscriptural response.

Sorry but not to disappoint you, I simply base my position upon what the Bible plainly says. And you don't. You just said your words do not contradict what Jesus said but they do. And the wonderful thing about it is you don't care explaining, because you can't?

Jesus: "Apart from Me, you can co NOTHING."
Clete: Apart from Christ, people can do SOMETHING - they can believe.

Now explain why you think your statement does not contradict Jesus' statement. That is, if you can.

It would be more honest of you to say, "I know the truth and no matter what you say, I am not going to lean anything new"

Clete
March 16th, 2016, 07:12 AM
Hi Clete;

I want to remind you that you have not yet addressed post #21 (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116860-An-Alternative-to-Arminianism-and-Calvinism&p=4646987&viewfull=1#post4646987). You instead waved goodbye (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116860-An-Alternative-to-Arminianism-and-Calvinism&p=4647274&viewfull=1#post4647274).
Permanently this time...


:wave2:

Samie
March 16th, 2016, 02:56 PM
Permanently this time...


:wave2:OK.

You are still welcome though should you change your mind again.

Samie
March 16th, 2016, 03:02 PM
Yes, you are showing the wisdom of the world and not the wisdom of God.


Yes.


I've heard something like that before.


Why are firetrucks red?
1 and 1 are 2
2 and 2 are 4
3 times 4 is 12
There are 12 inches in a foot
12 inches are in a ruler
A Czar is a ruler
A Czar is Russian
Russians are red
A firetruck is red because it is always rushing (Russian)

Chaining together logical statements does not make the conclusion true.

So, lets go to the first occurrence of "believe" in the Bible, following the First Mention Principle (http://www.biblestudy.org/beginner/definition-of-christian-terms/first-mention-principle.html).


Genesis 15:1-6
1 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

God rewarded Abram for believing.

Now contrast this to what happened with the children of Israel.

Deuteronomy 9:23-25
23 Likewise when the Lord sent you from Kadeshbarnea, saying, Go up and possess the land which I have given you; then ye rebelled against the commandment of the Lord your God, and ye believed him not, nor hearkened to his voice.
24 Ye have been rebellious against the Lord from the day that I knew you.
25 Thus I fell down before the Lord forty days and forty nights, as I fell down at the first; because the Lord had said he would destroy you.

God was going to destroy the children of Israel for refusing to believe until the petition of Moses changed His mind.

According to you, the children of Israel could not rebel against God's commandment unless they were in Christ.
Your foolishness has blinded you to the truth.You strayed off topic.

Again, Jesus told His disciples that apart from Him, they can do NOTHING. Are you better off than His disciples you can do SOMETHING apart from Him?

genuineoriginal
March 16th, 2016, 04:10 PM
Again, Jesus told His disciples that apart from Him, they can do NOTHING.
I see you are having a hard time understanding the words of Jesus in the context that He said them.

If you keep thinking Jesus meant that nobody could do a single thing without Him, then you are not abiding in Jesus.


John 15:6
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Samie
March 19th, 2016, 01:23 PM
I see you are having a hard time understanding the words of Jesus in the context that He said them.

If you keep thinking Jesus meant that nobody could do a single thing without Him, then you are not abiding in Jesus.


John 15:6
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.So for you, to believe Jesus' statement that apart from Him man can do NOTHING, is not abiding in Him.

Good theology. Carry on. That's genuinely original thought.

Biblical? I doubt. Because if it is, then it originated from the Author of Scriptures.

genuineoriginal
March 20th, 2016, 08:23 AM
So for you, to believe Jesus' statement that apart from Him man can do NOTHING, is not abiding in Him.
The fact that you (Samie) believe that nobody can do anything without being in Jesus proves that you (Samie) are not abiding in Jesus.

If you were abiding in Jesus, you would not be trying to prevent unbelievers from believing.

Samie
March 21st, 2016, 01:17 PM
You have a genuinely original theology, genuineoriginal.

I believe Christ's words that apart from Him, the disciples can do NOTHING, and that applies to me as well. You tell me that proves I don't abide in Christ.

You believe Christ's words that apart from Him, the disciples can do NOTHING, BUT it does NOT apply to you. So, you are better off than His disciples. You can do SOMETHING apart from Christ, while the disciples can NOT.

Wonderful theology.

themuzicman
March 22nd, 2016, 07:19 AM
I'm unclear as to what you mean by "Adam's race." Are there human beings not of "Adam's race"?

Samie
March 22nd, 2016, 02:45 PM
I'm unclear as to what you mean by "Adam's race." Are there human beings not of "Adam's race"?None. But there are earth-dwellers who are offspring of evil angels marrying human beings. See Gen 6:2, 4. Their offspring are demons. They were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world (Rev 17:8). There is no plan of redemption for Satan and his host (Matt 25:41).

In the OT, the phrase "sons of God" refers to angels. see Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:4-7

TulipBee
March 24th, 2016, 04:39 AM
Another god is not an alternative