PDA

View Full Version : Scriptures that Refute Calvinism



Robert Pate
February 29th, 2016, 12:45 PM
Calvinism is a false doctrine that teaches God only choses some people to be saved and damns the rest to hell. The scriptures listed below teach otherwise. These are just some of the scriptures that refute Calvinism. There are many, many more.


"WHOSOEVER that shall not receive the Kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter in" Luke 18:17

"WHOSOEVER that believes in him should not perish" John 3:15.

"WHOSOEVER that drinks of this water that I shall give to him shall neve thrist" John 4:14.

"WHOSOEVER that lives and believes in me shall never die" John 11:26.

"I am come a light unto the world, that WHOSOEVER believes in me should not abide in darkness" John 12:46.

"And it shall come to past that WHOSOEVER shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Acts 2:21.

"That through his name WHOSOEVER believes in him shall receive remission of sins" Acts 10:43.

"WHOSOEVER that believes in him shall not be ashamed" Romans 10:11.

"For WHOSOEVER that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

"WHOSOEVER shall confess that Jesus is the Son Of God, God dwells in him" 1 John 4:15.

"WHOSOEVER believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" 1 John 5:1.

"Come unto me ALL OF YOU that labor and I will give you rest" Matthew 11:28.

"WHOSOEVER Shall confess me before men, him will I confess before my Father" Matthew 10:32.

"For WHOSOEVER will save his life shall lose it" Matthew 16:32.

"WHOSOEVER shall receive a little child in my name receives me" Matthew 18:4.

"And WHOSOEVER shall do the will of God, the same is my brother and my sister, and my mother" Mark 3:35.

"Which you have prepared before the face of ALL PEOPLE" Luke 2:31.

"WHOSOEVER that will come after me" Luke 6:47.

"The same came for a witness of the light that ALL MEN might believe" John 1:7.

flintstoned
February 29th, 2016, 07:19 PM
This SUPPORTS Calvinism! All Calvinists believe these verses.

rako
February 29th, 2016, 07:57 PM
This SUPPORTS Calvinism! All Calvinists believe these verses.
One time, when I asked why Reformed who say the Bible is "perspicuous" and easily understood without use of Tradition have opposite answers on major questions, I was told that it is because they ignored some parts of the Bible.

However, as you point out, Reformed with opposite views eg Arminianism v Calvinism do pay attention to the same verses.

This suggests to me that even when they pay attention to all the verses they have opposite conclusions, and so the Bible is not really so easily understood on them after all. Hence the importance of Tradition as a crucial (although not infallible) authority.

Feel free to have a look at my thread that discusses this question:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116545

Robert Pate
February 29th, 2016, 09:29 PM
This SUPPORTS Calvinism! All Calvinists believe these verses.

You apparently do not understand Calvinism.

Calvinist believe that only "some certain persons" have been predestinated to eternal life. Canons of Dort, First Head: Article #10.

The word "WHOSOEVER" means all, anyone, everyone.

flintstoned
March 2nd, 2016, 06:06 PM
You apparently do not understand Calvinism.

Calvinist believe that only "some certain persons" have been predestinated to eternal life. Canons of Dort, First Head: Article #10.

The word "WHOSOEVER" means all, anyone, everyone.

No, YOU don't understand Calvinism. Calvinists agree with all of the bible verses you quoted. Yep....they agree that "whosoever believes, will be saved." Whosoever (meaning all, anyone, everyone, in the whole wide world) who believes will be saved. Just like it says.

Robert Pate
March 3rd, 2016, 09:23 AM
No, YOU don't understand Calvinism. Calvinists agree with all of the bible verses you quoted. Yep....they agree that "whosoever believes, will be saved." Whosoever (meaning all, anyone, everyone, in the whole wide world) who believes will be saved. Just like it says.

If you add anything to the word "Whosoever" it is no longer whosoever.

In your case it is "whosoever that believes". The word cannot be designated to mean any particular group because it then does not mean whosoever.

flintstoned
March 3rd, 2016, 08:27 PM
If you add anything to the word "Whosoever" it is no longer whosoever.

In your case it is "whosoever that believes". The word cannot be designated to mean any particular group because it then does not mean whosoever.

What are you talking about? Each of those verses "adds things" to the word "whosoever." Whosoever believes, whosoever calls, whosoever confesses, etc. That is what scripture says. You cannot separate it. Are you suggesting that all, every single individual in the world, is saved without believing?

Grosnick Marowbe
March 3rd, 2016, 08:48 PM
This SUPPORTS Calvinism! All Calvinists believe these verses.

Calvinists read the Scripture according to their Calvinist beliefs. Calvinism comes first with you folks and Scripture is second.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 3rd, 2016, 08:49 PM
What are you talking about? Each of those verses "adds things" to the word "whosoever." Whosoever believes, whosoever calls, whosoever confesses, etc. That is what scripture says. You cannot separate it. Are you suggesting that all, every single individual in the world, is saved without believing?

Are you blind? Have you no discernment?

Grosnick Marowbe
March 3rd, 2016, 08:52 PM
Calvinists interpret Scripture by passing it through their "Scripture filter." Thereby, it comes out the other side with a Calvin slant attached.

Crucible
March 3rd, 2016, 09:57 PM
:doh:

None of those verses are against Calvinism. There are no verses against Calvinism.

This is a perfect display, rather, of how much people just don't get or want to understand the theology.

I think that it's become so intrinsic to some on here to railroad Reformed doctrine that they don't even know why they are really against it anymore. It's just 'evil predestination, lets throw rocks at it' :rotfl:

Just remember that the champions of the Reformation are the reason you aren't being taxed and told what to believe right now.

Brother Ducky
March 3rd, 2016, 10:04 PM
Calvinists interpret Scripture by passing it through their "Scripture filter." Thereby, it comes out the other side with a Calvin slant attached.

To a certain degree, of course. Are you arguing that you come to Scripture with no filter, whatsoever?

Ask Mr. Religion
March 4th, 2016, 12:03 AM
These are just some of the scriptures that refute Calvinism.
The Reformed believe every single verse in Scripture, Robert.

We do not think think Scripture is not perfect.

But you know who disagrees with this? You do, Robert:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?111969-Why-I-Don-t-Believe-in-Calvinism-or-Predestination&p=4402162&viewfull=1#post4402162

AMR

Grosnick Marowbe
March 4th, 2016, 01:08 AM
The Reformed believe every single verse in Scripture, Robert.

We do not think think Scripture is full of errors.

But you know who disagrees with this? You do, Robert:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?111969-Why-I-Don-t-Believe-in-Calvinism-or-Predestination&p=4402162&viewfull=1#post4402162

AMR

AMR, Calvinism must change the character and intent of God in order to have their "belief system" work. God desires, ALL men to come to a saving knowledge of Christ's death and resurrection. God surely didn't choose you and a few other "Elects" and send the rest of humanity to eternal damnation. That is a false doctrine. In order to make it sound plausible, you and your ilk must, misinterpret Scripture verses. God's Grace is given to them who, hear the Gospel and place all their faith in Christ and His death and resurrection. That is Paul's Gospel, given to him by the ascended Lord Jesus Christ.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 4th, 2016, 01:33 AM
To a certain degree, of course. Are you arguing that you come to Scripture with no filter, whatsoever?

Here's how I do it: I pray to God the Father, that He will give me wisdom and knowledge for what I'm about to read. I'm able to learn new things as I read along. That's a funny thing about the Bible, no matter how much you read and study it, you can continue to learn new things. The Bible is a "Spiritual Book." It is inspired by the Holy Spirit and written by men of old. One thing I have never seen is, the Calvinist false doctrine in God's written word. There seems to be a lot of Presbyterians and some Baptists that seem to cling to the beliefs of John Calvin and his ilk.

I used to listen to a radio station in California (in the 70s) called "Family Radio." They basically had Presbyterian Pastors who preached from tapes they would play. They were all Calvinists. The owner of the station was named "Harold Camping." He was involved with Calvinism and reformed theology. Many years later he became "infamous" for predicting the end of the world on different occasions. I believe the last "Prediction" came in 2011? He would preach nightly that the end was coming on a certain day of a certain month. He had many, many followers who believed his every word. They even quit their jobs, sold their homes and worldly possessions.

They went out on the streets and preached, the end of the world is coming on such and such a day. Well, the day came and went and it's now 2016. If you're interested reading about this fellow and his "Predictions" Google: "Harold Camping." It's quite a story. They should make a movie about this guy and the misery he brought about for those who lost everything because of this "misguided" guy and his religious beliefs. In the 70s he preached that if a wife was being beaten by her husband, even to the point of losing her life, she had an obligation to stay with him.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 4th, 2016, 01:38 AM
:doh:

None of those verses are against Calvinism. There are no verses against Calvinism.

This is a perfect display, rather, of how much people just don't get or want to understand the theology.

I think that it's become so intrinsic to some on here to railroad Reformed doctrine that they don't even know why they are really against it anymore. It's just 'evil predestination, lets throw rocks at it' :rotfl:

Just remember that the champions of the Reformation are the reason you aren't being taxed and told what to believe right now.

I have a reason for not believing it. It's based on false doctrine. That's good enough for me.

Brother Ducky
March 4th, 2016, 05:59 PM
Calvinism is a false doctrine that teaches God only choses some people to be saved and damns the rest to hell. The scriptures listed below teach otherwise. These are just some of the scriptures that refute Calvinism. There are many, many more.


"WHOSOEVER that shall not receive the Kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter in" Luke 18:17

"WHOSOEVER that believes in him should not perish" John 3:15.

"WHOSOEVER that drinks of this water that I shall give to him shall neve thrist" John 4:14.

"WHOSOEVER that lives and believes in me shall never die" John 11:26.

"I am come a light unto the world, that WHOSOEVER believes in me should not abide in darkness" John 12:46.

"And it shall come to past that WHOSOEVER shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Acts 2:21.

"That through his name WHOSOEVER believes in him shall receive remission of sins" Acts 10:43.

"WHOSOEVER that believes in him shall not be ashamed" Romans 10:11.

"For WHOSOEVER that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

"WHOSOEVER shall confess that Jesus is the Son Of God, God dwells in him" 1 John 4:15.

"WHOSOEVER believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" 1 John 5:1.

"Come unto me ALL OF YOU that labor and I will give you rest" Matthew 11:28.

"WHOSOEVER Shall confess me before men, him will I confess before my Father" Matthew 10:32.

"For WHOSOEVER will save his life shall lose it" Matthew 16:32.

"WHOSOEVER shall receive a little child in my name receives me" Matthew 18:4.

"And WHOSOEVER shall do the will of God, the same is my brother and my sister, and my mother" Mark 3:35.

"Which you have prepared before the face of ALL PEOPLE" Luke 2:31.

"WHOSOEVER that will come after me" Luke 6:47.

"The same came for a witness of the light that ALL MEN might believe" John 1:7.

Something you said on another thread speaks to your methodology here:


This is why you are so screwed up. You can't take excerpts from anything and come to a conclusion.

Robert Pate
March 5th, 2016, 04:48 PM
The Reformed believe every single verse in Scripture, Robert.

We do not think think Scripture is not perfect.

But you know who disagrees with this? You do, Robert:

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?111969-Why-I-Don-t-Believe-in-Calvinism-or-Predestination&p=4402162&viewfull=1#post4402162

AMR

You must think that you are talking to an idiot.

No, you don't believe every scripture in the Bible. There are about 75 scriptures that tell us God has provided salvation for all, all men, everyone, whosoever. Not just some elected few but for the whole world, 1 John 4:14.

Crucible
March 5th, 2016, 04:50 PM
You must think that you are talking to an idiot.

:think:


:Plain:

Robert Pate
March 6th, 2016, 09:18 AM
:think:


:Plain:


Anyone that would believe in Calvinism is one french fry short of a happy meal.

Crucible
March 6th, 2016, 02:54 PM
Anyone that would believe in Calvinism is one french fry short of a happy meal.

You know what I see anti-Calvinists do? Push up daisies. That is, if you're not familiar with the phrase, making something appear as easy or frivolous; sugarcoat- in this case, Christianity and God's sovereignty.

flintstoned
March 6th, 2016, 03:22 PM
You must think that you are talking to an idiot.

No, you don't believe every scripture in the Bible. There are about 75 scriptures that tell us God has provided salvation for all, all men, everyone, whosoever. Not just some elected few but for the whole world, 1 John 4:14.

So is everyone saved, or is salvation limited to whosoever BELIEVES?

Crucible
March 6th, 2016, 03:35 PM
Pate doesn't understand the symmetry between forensic salvation and predestination. Those such as himself don't like the idea of the gears behind the curtain being something they have no sovereignty over. They rather see themselves as the gears, who can move as they will.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 6th, 2016, 03:47 PM
You must think that you are talking to an idiot.

No, you don't believe every scripture in the Bible. There are about 75 scriptures that tell us God has provided salvation for all, all men, everyone, whosoever. Not just some elected few but for the whole world, 1 John 4:14.

This is true Pate.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 6th, 2016, 03:50 PM
Pate doesn't understand the symmetry between forensic salvation and predestination. Those such as himself don't like the idea of the gears behind the curtain being something they have no sovereignty over. They rather see themselves as the gears, who can move as they will.

You are now, The Undisputed Metaphor King of TOL.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 6th, 2016, 03:54 PM
So is everyone saved, or is salvation limited to whosoever BELIEVES?

Obviously, you're being sarcastic Fred.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 6th, 2016, 04:49 PM
You know what I see anti-Calvinists do? Push up daisies. That is, if you're not familiar with the phrase, making something appear as easy or frivolous; sugarcoat- in this case, Christianity and God's sovereignty.

The usual sense of that phrase carries the meaning of someone who is dead and, "Pushing up daisies."

beloved57
March 6th, 2016, 04:55 PM
Calvinism is a false doctrine that teaches God only choses some people to be saved and damns the rest to hell. The scriptures listed below teach otherwise. These are just some of the scriptures that refute Calvinism. There are many, many more.


"WHOSOEVER that shall not receive the Kingdom of God as a little child shall not enter in" Luke 18:17

"WHOSOEVER that believes in him should not perish" John 3:15.

"WHOSOEVER that drinks of this water that I shall give to him shall neve thrist" John 4:14.

"WHOSOEVER that lives and believes in me shall never die" John 11:26.

"I am come a light unto the world, that WHOSOEVER believes in me should not abide in darkness" John 12:46.

"And it shall come to past that WHOSOEVER shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Acts 2:21.

"That through his name WHOSOEVER believes in him shall receive remission of sins" Acts 10:43.

"WHOSOEVER that believes in him shall not be ashamed" Romans 10:11.

"For WHOSOEVER that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

"WHOSOEVER shall confess that Jesus is the Son Of God, God dwells in him" 1 John 4:15.

"WHOSOEVER believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" 1 John 5:1.

"Come unto me ALL OF YOU that labor and I will give you rest" Matthew 11:28.

"WHOSOEVER Shall confess me before men, him will I confess before my Father" Matthew 10:32.

"For WHOSOEVER will save his life shall lose it" Matthew 16:32.

"WHOSOEVER shall receive a little child in my name receives me" Matthew 18:4.

"And WHOSOEVER shall do the will of God, the same is my brother and my sister, and my mother" Mark 3:35.

"Which you have prepared before the face of ALL PEOPLE" Luke 2:31.

"WHOSOEVER that will come after me" Luke 6:47.

"The same came for a witness of the light that ALL MEN might believe" John 1:7.

You dont believe or understand one of those scriptures, and on top of that you teach the damnable heresy of salvation by works, by what a person does, which discounts Salvation by what Christ did alone !

Grosnick Marowbe
March 6th, 2016, 05:00 PM
You dont believe or understand one of those scriptures, and on top of that you teach the damnable heresy of salvation by works, by what a person does, which discounts Salvation by what Christ did alone !

You're an "Ultra-hyper-Calvinist fanatic, therefore, your opinions don't count."

Grosnick Marowbe
March 6th, 2016, 05:03 PM
Watch out for B57 folks, he preaches false doctrine and is an enemy of the " True Gospel."

Crucible
March 6th, 2016, 05:59 PM
You are now, The Undisputed Metaphor King of TOL.

It gets points across :idunno:


he preaches false doctrine and is an enemy of the " True Gospel."

I see you constantly repeat that it's false doctrine, but that's ALL I see. I don't see you actually refuting it :rolleyes:

Robert Pate
March 6th, 2016, 06:32 PM
It gets points across :idunno:



I see you constantly repeat that it's false doctrine, but that's ALL I see. I don't see you actually refuting it :rolleyes:

He doesn't have to. The opening post throughly and completely refutes Calvinism.

The Canons of Dort teach that God only saves "Some Certain Persons". The Bible teaches that salvation is available to everyone, all, whosoever. This is why... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13. Not just "Some Certain Persons".

Crucible
March 6th, 2016, 06:56 PM
He doesn't have to. The opening post throughly and completely refutes Calvinism.

:rotfl:

If it were so easy that all one had to do was throw random scripture.. you don't want to accept that Calvin was a mastered theologian. I don't even..

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ku1iV9Us5FQ/TyqvcDetFwI/AAAAAAAAAv4/K85ceG4mHtQ/s1600/jackie-chan-meme_thumb%5B7%5D.png

These discussions are completely pointless with you. Utterly a waste of time. He does need to refute, and so do you- stop spamming the threads with the same futile arguments.

Ask Mr. Religion
March 6th, 2016, 11:33 PM
I doubt that Robert Pate gets the Jackie Chan meme. ;)

AMR

Grosnick Marowbe
March 6th, 2016, 11:40 PM
He doesn't have to. The opening post throughly and completely refutes Calvinism.

The Canons of Dort teach that God only saves "Some Certain Persons". The Bible teaches that salvation is available to everyone, all, whosoever. This is why... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13. Not just "Some Certain Persons".

Amen Pate

Grosnick Marowbe
March 6th, 2016, 11:44 PM
It gets points across :idunno:



I see you constantly repeat that it's false doctrine, but that's ALL I see. I don't see you actually refuting it :rolleyes:

I have done that on occasion. Calvinists don't like what I have to say. I really don't care if they do. I know that Calvinism is a false doctrine and I also believe it's a cult of sorts.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 6th, 2016, 11:45 PM
How many of you Calvinists actually read the Bible cover to cover, word for word, name by name?

Grosnick Marowbe
March 6th, 2016, 11:47 PM
I realize there will never be a meeting of the minds between "Grace Believers" and Calvinists. There can't be.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 6th, 2016, 11:48 PM
Calvinists change the character and intent of the God of the Bible in order to fit their "belief system."

Grosnick Marowbe
March 6th, 2016, 11:49 PM
Their belief system comes first.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 6th, 2016, 11:51 PM
The Bible teaches; Grace through faith. Calvinists preach that one must first be regenerated before they can receive saving faith. That is contrary to the Scriptures.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 6th, 2016, 11:53 PM
God created ALL men with "free will."

Grosnick Marowbe
March 6th, 2016, 11:55 PM
The House of Israel chose to follow their idols and stop worshipping God, at times. God didn't force them to choose those idols.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 6th, 2016, 11:57 PM
Ephesians 2:8-9 " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 7th, 2016, 12:02 AM
God offers His Grace to a "world of lost sinners." Anyone who hears the Gospel and places their faith in Christ and His death and resurrection can have eternal life. Calvinists believe God chose His elect before the foundation of the world and sent the rest into eternal damnation. This is a false doctrine.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 7th, 2016, 12:04 AM
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

Grosnick Marowbe
March 7th, 2016, 12:06 AM
The message that Paul received from the "ascended Christ" is the only Gospel for today. Calvinism is not the way to eternal life. Paul's Gospel will save you. John Calvin's gospel will confuse you.

Ask Mr. Religion
March 7th, 2016, 12:56 AM
The Canons of Dort teach that God only saves "Some Certain Persons". The Bible teaches that salvation is available to everyone, all, whosoever. This is why... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13. Not just "Some Certain Persons".
No matter what you believe, the plain fact is that some certain persons are indeed saved, else all persons are saved, yet we know from Scripture beyond a doubt that at least one person was not...the son of perdition.

These are the plain truths of Scripture:

All are called to their duty to believe.
Anyone who sincerely calls upon the name of the Lord will not be turned away.
Not all will sincerely call upon the name of the Lord.
Therefore, not all will be saved.

The only issue is that you, Robert, believe that you had a hand in your re-birth, while some of us believe we played absolutely no part in our regeneration (re-birth), which, singularly particular, is wholly monergistic (http://tinyurl.com/h7d2qok), this regeneration being the first step towards salvation. Once so regenerated (quickened from spiritual death) we then were made able (Ezekiel 36:26) to believe—the first fruit of regeneration—and did so.

At the end of our lives, it is my conviction we both will wind up in the same place, but only some of us will know how we got there. ;)

The difference in all of this involves our walk of faith. Indeed, the destination matters, but so does the road taken to arrive at the destination, especially given the rewards that accompany the particular road taken (http://tinyurl.com/zp66xsq). There is no doubt that many will be saved despite being confused about the whole salvific process. I happen to think, and Scripture agrees with me, that a person's confusion (or, er, stubbornness) about weighty and sacred topics robs him or her of many possible blessings in their ongoing sanctification.

AMR

Grosnick Marowbe
March 7th, 2016, 01:06 AM
Some around here mistake Pate for a "Universalist." This is not so. He preaches Grace through faith. That is Biblical salvation. God came in the flesh to die for the sins of ALL mankind. Whosoever shall believe shall be saved. One must first hear the Gospel of their salvation and earnestly place ALL their faith in the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. They cannot place their faith in Christ and their good works/deeds, water baptism, speaking in tongues, Catholicism, Calvinism, etc. They must place ALL of their faith in Christ as their Savior. They reject the Real Gospel at their peril.

TulipBee
March 7th, 2016, 06:35 AM
The declaration that Christ died for "all" is made clearer by the song that the redeemed sing before the throne of the Lamb: "Thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev. 5:9). Oftentimes the word "all" must be understood to mean all the elect, all His Church, all those whom the Father has given to the Son, as when Christ says, "All that which the Father giveth me shall come to me" (John 6:37), but not all men universally and every man individually. The redeemed host will be make up of men from all classes and conditions of life, of princes and peasants, of rich and poor, bond and free, male and female, Jews and Gentiles, men of all nations and races. That is the true universalism of Scripture.
Found at https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/sdg/boettner/boettner_reformedfaith.html

TulipBee
March 7th, 2016, 06:44 AM
I doubt that Robert Pate gets the Jackie Chan meme. ;)

AMR
All Buddhist will be saved according to pate.
He gets it but he gets it from lucifer

Robert Pate
March 7th, 2016, 08:22 AM
All Buddhist will be saved according to pate.
He gets it but he gets it from lucifer


The God of Calvinism is not the God of the Bible.

The God of the Bible so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son, John 3:16.

The God of Calvinism damns people to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam.

The God of Calvinism cannot be trusted. How could anyone have faith in a mean, unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous, tyrant God.

I could never have faith in such a God as this and I don't believe that Calvinist can either.

TulipBee
March 7th, 2016, 08:29 AM
The God of Calvinism is not the God of the Bible.

The God of the Bible so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son, John 3:16.

The God of Calvinism damns people to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam.

The God of Calvinism cannot be trusted. How could anyone have faith in a mean, unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous, tyrant God.

I could never have faith in such a God as this and I don't believe that Calvinist can either.
Jackie Chan isn't a Calvinist.
According to you, he is the whosoever.
You claim he is saved.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 7th, 2016, 09:20 AM
The God of Calvinism is not the God of the Bible.

The God of the Bible so loves the world that he gives his only begotten Son, John 3:16.

The God of Calvinism damns people to hell for no reason other than they were born after Adam.

The God of Calvinism cannot be trusted. How could anyone have faith in a mean, unjust, unmerciful, unrighteous, tyrant God?

I could never have faith in such a God as this and I don't believe that Calvinist can either.

Calvinists change the character and intent of God in order for Him to fit their "belief system." I believe it to be a cult.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 7th, 2016, 09:25 AM
Regardless of how a Calvinist came to Christ, they still had to have a point in their life where they had to make a decision to believe the Gospel. It didn't just strike them suddenly that they were one of the elect. Something had to happen in order for them to come to that conclusion?

Ask Mr. Religion
March 7th, 2016, 10:07 AM
Regardless of how a Calvinist came to Christ, they still had to have a point in their life where they had to make a decision to believe the Gospel. It didn't just strike them suddenly that they were one of the elect. Something had to happen in order for them to come to that conclusion?
Monergism only relates to regeneration, in which the person is passive given that the person is spiritually dead. By spiritually dead is meant the person possesses no moral ability to choose to rightly. These persons are only able to sin more or sin less. Hence, they will never choose rightly unless God reaches down and does something to them (Eze. 36:26) so they are now able to choose to sin or not to sin.

But, once regenerated the man becomes active...spiritually alive. At this instant of regeneration the inevitable exercise of faith in receiving the righteousness of Christ for justification is the person's own act. Strictly speaking, therefore, not even justification is monergistic. It is best to restrict the terms monergism and synergism to the controversy over regeneration and nothing else.

So, yes, most will remember a moment at which they were born anew and made the only choice possible at that moment. It is really no different than the non-Calvinist. The quibbling that is going on relates to the understanding of what is actually going on "under the hood" as it were.

The Arminian will say that "aha!" moment of regeneration was something that came from within them via persuasiveness (wooing) by the Holy Spirit, and they made the right choice.

The Calvinist will say that "aha!" moment of regeneration came from without, in that the Holy Spirit enlightens the mind and renews the will, and thus they made the only choice possible.

God does not give a new mind or new will in regeneration. The man has the same human powers of mind and will; but as regenerate the man is endued with spiritual life and is thereby able to think, will, feel, and act spiritually. The faculty of the will cannot be removed and substituted. The same old will (which was enslaved) is renewed and liberated. A freed person who was once a slave does not need to be made an entirely new person; he merely needs to be freed.

Our new life—our love for and trust of the Savior—flows from the new birth, not vice versa. This is clearly taught in John 3:3 (http://links.biblegateway.mkt4731.com/ctt?kn=16&ms=NDYxMTA3MDIS1&r=MjgwMDY2NTQyNTkS1&b=0&j=NDYwNTc3MjgyS0&mt=1&rt=0) where Jesus tells us we cannot even see the kingdom of God unless we are first born again. If we cannot see the kingdom, we certainly cannot enter it; thus, regeneration precedes faith. In regenerating our hearts, the Holy Spirit opens our eyes, making us able to obey in faith.

AMR

Brother Ducky
March 7th, 2016, 02:20 PM
God created ALL men with "free will."

Calvinists do not deny the existence of free-will; we do deny that free-will is absolute. That is to say that there are limits on what a person may actually choose.

A challenge for you. Exercise your free-will and become a Calvinist for 1 week. Choose to believe that which we believe. And not just say that you are, but really become one.

Bet you can't.

Brother Ducky
March 7th, 2016, 02:57 PM
Some around here mistake Pate for a "Universalist." This is not so. He preaches Grace through faith. That is Biblical salvation. God came in the flesh to die for the sins of ALL mankind. Whosoever shall believe shall be saved. One must first hear the Gospel of their salvation and earnestly place ALL their faith in the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. They cannot place their faith in Christ and their good works/deeds, water baptism, speaking in tongues, Catholicism, Calvinism, etc. They must place ALL of their faith in Christ as their Savior. They reject the Real Gospel at their peril.

I understand that Pate is not a Universalist. He does have a belief system that logically leads to Universalism. He has a doctrine, Pate-made as far as I can tell [and one that I know of none who also claim to hold] of the re-imputation of sin. This he holds with bulldog tenacity, with no clear Scriptural warrant. He quotes one verse in support, a verse that says the opposite of what he says. He also insists that predestination can not be true because it is mentioned only four times in scripture. He is not a Universalist because he arbitrarily and capriciously says he isn't despite what he says he believes.

Brother Ducky
March 7th, 2016, 03:05 PM
How many of you Calvinists actually read the Bible cover to cover, word for word, name by name?

I do. As do many Reformed/Calvinist believers here. I do not think that you will be able to sling the mud of Biblical ignorance against Calvinists and have it stick.

For historical interest, check out some of the Reformed Standards with Scriptural proofs and tell me honestly that the authors were just plain ignorant of what the Bible says.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 7th, 2016, 03:45 PM
Jackie Chan isn't a Calvinist.
According to you, he is the whosoever.
You claim he is saved.

Was Bruce Lee?

Grosnick Marowbe
March 7th, 2016, 03:47 PM
I do. As do many Reformed/Calvinist believers here. I do not think that you will be able to sling the mud of Biblical ignorance against Calvinists and have it stick.

For historical interest, check out some of the Reformed Standards with Scriptural proofs and tell me honestly that the authors were just plain ignorant of what the Bible says.

Calvinists preach false doctrine. I read the Bible, Therefore, I get my truth from it rather than from your Calvinist propaganda. See what I mean? I doubt it?

Grosnick Marowbe
March 7th, 2016, 03:49 PM
Not interested in "Reformed Theology or Calvinism." You're not gonna sell me on that false doctrine. Thanks anyway Duck.

Ask Mr. Religion
March 7th, 2016, 04:05 PM
Was Bruce Lee?
Folks, the previous use of the Jackie Chan meme is meant to mean "I'm Confused". Has nothing to do with Buddha. It is a known meme for confusion.

AMR

Grosnick Marowbe
March 7th, 2016, 04:06 PM
Monergism only relates to regeneration, in which the person is passive given that the person is spiritually dead. By spiritually dead is meant the person possesses no moral ability to choose to rightly. These persons are only able to sin more or sin less. Hence, they will never choose rightly unless God reaches down and does something to them (Eze. 36:26) so they are now able to choose to sin or not to sin. All are just as passionate as the other. All belive their interpretation of Scripture are set in stone, correct?

But, once regenerated the man becomes active...spiritually alive. At this instant of regeneration the inevitable exercise of faith in receiving the righteousness of Christ for justification is the person's own act. Strictly speaking, therefore, not even justification is monergistic. It is best to restrict the terms monergism and synergism to the controversy over regeneration and nothing else.

So, yes, most will remember a moment at which they were born anew and made the only choice possible at that moment. It is really no different than the non-Calvinist. The quibbling that is going on relates to the understanding of what is actually going on "under the hood" as it were.

The Arminian will say that "aha!" moment of regeneration was something that came from within them via persuasiveness (wooing) by the Holy Spirit, and they made the right choice.

The Calvinist will say that "aha!" moment of regeneration came from without, in that the Holy Spirit enlightens the mind and renews the will, and thus they made the only choice possible.

God does not give a new mind or new will in regeneration. The man has the same human powers of mind and will; but as regenerate the man is endued with spiritual life and is thereby able to think, will, feel, and act spiritually. The faculty of the will cannot be removed and substituted. The same old will (which was enslaved) is renewed and liberated. A freed person who was once a slave does not need to be made an entirely new person; he merely needs to be freed.

Our new life—our love for and trust of the Savior—flows from the new birth, not vice versa. This is clearly taught in John 3:3 (http://links.biblegateway.mkt4731.com/ctt?kn=16&ms=NDYxMTA3MDIS1&r=MjgwMDY2NTQyNTkS1&b=0&j=NDYwNTc3MjgyS0&mt=1&rt=0) where Jesus tells us we cannot even see the kingdom of God unless we are first born again. If we cannot see the kingdom, we certainly cannot enter it; thus, regeneration precedes faith. In regenerating our hearts, the Holy Spirit opens our eyes, making us able to obey in faith.

AMR

What you're basically saying is, Calvinists have come up with a "theory" of how they came to Christ and that "theory" is different than what the Arminian's believe? Therefore, you cannot be dogmatic about your "theory" and will only find out after you leave this world. Is that not so? The problem being, Calvinist's,
Arminian's and Grace Gospel Believers all interpret those Scripture verses differently than one another. Yet, we all stand or fall on our own beliefs, do we not?

Grosnick Marowbe
March 7th, 2016, 04:07 PM
Folks, the previous use of the Jackie Chan meme is meant to mean "I'm Confused". Has nothing to do with Buddha. It is a known meme for confusion.

AMR

It was successful.

glorydaz
March 7th, 2016, 04:18 PM
What you're basically saying is, Calvinists have come up with a "theory" of how they came to Christ and that "theory" is different than what the Arminian's believe? Therefore, you cannot be dogmatic about your "theory" and will only find out after you leave this world. Is that not so? The problem being, Calvinist's,
Arminian's and Grace Gospel Believers all interpret those Scripture verses differently than one another. Yet, we all stand or fall on our own beliefs, do we not?

Which reminds me of what a brother shared with me years ago.

We find ourselves in a room where there is a door with a sign at the top that says, "Enter for eternal life." After we walk through the door, we look back and see this written over the top of the door, "Chosen in Christ from the beginning."

Ask Mr. Religion
March 7th, 2016, 04:18 PM
Calvinists preach false doctrine. I read the Bible, Therefore, I get my truth from it rather than from your Calvinist propaganda. See what I mean? I doubt it?GM,

This just being provocative. Are you saying that you never read anything anyone has to say on matters of the Scripture? A commentary? A Bible dictionary? A Bible background encyclopedia? Are you saying no one is capable of summarizing teachings of Scripture? Yes, men are given to being wrong when so writing all these types of materials. That said, not each and every thing they write is erroneous. In fact, men are capable of making infallible statements...sometimes. So to say "I read the Bible" as if no one else but you reads it is a wee bit high-minded. And to say you are not occasionally moved by what others have to say or write, is disingenuous, else why bother discussing Scripture at all with others?

AMR

Ask Mr. Religion
March 7th, 2016, 04:21 PM
What you're basically saying is, Calvinists have come up with a "theory" of how they came to Christ and that "theory" is different than what the Arminian's believe? Therefore, you cannot be dogmatic about your "theory" and will only find out after you leave this world. Is that not so? The problem being, Calvinist's,
Arminian's and Grace Gospel Believers all interpret those Scripture verses differently than one another. Yet, we all stand or fall on our own beliefs, do we not?
In other words, we all have theories, correct?

AMR

Robert Pate
March 7th, 2016, 04:36 PM
In other words, we all have theories, correct?

AMR

If your theory is in conflict with scripture then you should change your theory so that it is compatible with the Bible.

There are so many scriptures that refute Calvinism, such as John 3:16, plus many, many others.

I find that it is one of the easiest false doctrines to refute.

Crucible
March 7th, 2016, 04:48 PM
I realize there will never be a meeting of the minds between "Grace Believers" and Calvinists. There can't be.

TULIP

Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints

I don't understand what you all are talking about when y'all make that dichotomy, and I also do not see any real refutation of the rest :idunno:

Ask Mr. Religion
March 7th, 2016, 05:42 PM
If your theory is in conflict with scripture then you should change your theory so that it is compatible with the Bible.Indeed, Robert, you should. It begins with first acknowledging the verbal and plenary inspiration of the Scripture. On that point alone, you have no seat at the table (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?111969-Why-I-Don-t-Believe-in-Calvinism-or-Predestination&p=4402162&viewfull=1#post4402162) where serious discussion and argumentation is expected.


There are so many scriptures that refute Calvinism, such as John 3:16, plus many, many others.How would you know given your low opinion of Holy Writ? What tells you the difference between the many errors in Scripture that you think exist and the non-errors?


I find that it is one of the easiest false doctrines to refute.You have made this assertion often, yet you will not stand still and actually be examined and defend your views substantively. All you have ever offered up is cherry-picked Scripture with some boldface formatting masquerading as exegesis. And when confronted with exegetical analysis contrary to your opinions you resort to complaining about how wordy those that disagree with you are or that these same folk are lost, hell-bound, and sin bent. In other words, you really have nothing to say that passes for an actual argument, much less a refutation.

As most anti-Calvinists do, you have merely expressed your personal disapproval of this or that. That's an autobiographical statement of your feelings. There's nothing for the Calvinist to respond to at that level. It's like telling me you do not like rhubarb pie. You folks need to learn that just because something seems to be wrong to you, that creates no presumption that your perception is correct. Folks like you need to become cognizant of how often you beg the question. You and, more lately, GM, are serial offenders in that regard. You usually shield yourselves from scrutiny by playing to a sympathetic audience or airing your views in a venue where hasty retreat behind the guise of complaints about using "big words", too complex responses, or "your mind is made up." If you never are going to actually justify your opinions with serious heavy-lifting and cross-examination until all matters are brought to light, all you are doing is but attention seeking. Mission accomplished. :AMR:

AMR

Brother Ducky
March 7th, 2016, 05:52 PM
Not interested in "Reformed Theology or Calvinism." You're not gonna sell me on that false doctrine. Thanks anyway Duck.

Did not think I could. But it points out that you really do not have free-will in this area.

If you think that you have free-will and that that free-will will allow an unsaved person to freely become a Christian prove it from Scripture. You often assert free-will, and yet you have not attempted [to my knowledge] to show free-will salvation from Scripture. The Bible is your sole source of truth? Go forth and prove.

Robert Pate
March 8th, 2016, 02:31 PM
Indeed, Robert, you should. It begins with first acknowledging the verbal and plenary inspiration of the Scripture. On that point alone, you have no seat at the table (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?111969-Why-I-Don-t-Believe-in-Calvinism-or-Predestination&p=4402162&viewfull=1#post4402162) where serious discussion and argumentation is expected.

How would you know given your low opinion of Holy Writ? What tells you the difference between the many errors in Scripture that you think exist and the non-errors?

You have made this assertion often, yet you will not stand still and actually be examined and defend your views substantively. All you have ever offered up is cherry-picked Scripture with some boldface formatting masquerading as exegesis. And when confronted with exegetical analysis contrary to your opinions you resort to complaining about how wordy those that disagree with you are or that these same folk are lost, hell-bound, and sin bent. In other words, you really have nothing to say that passes for an actual argument, much less a refutation.

As most anti-Calvinists do, you have merely expressed your personal disapproval of this or that. That's an autobiographical statement of your feelings. There's nothing for the Calvinist to respond to at that level. It's like telling me you do not like rhubarb pie. You folks need to learn that just because something seems to be wrong to you, that creates no presumption that your perception is correct. Folks like you need to become cognizant of how often you beg the question. You and, more lately, GM, are serial offenders in that regard. You usually shield yourselves from scrutiny by playing to a sympathetic audience or airing your views in a venue where hasty retreat behind the guise of complaints about using "big words", too complex responses, or "your mind is made up." If you never are going to actually justify your opinions with serious heavy-lifting and cross-examination until all matters are brought to light, all you are doing is but attention seeking. Mission accomplished. :AMR:

AMR

The Bible throughly and completely refutes Calvinism.

You apparently believe that there is something wrong with the Bible. Words like "Gospel" or "Justification" are absent from your vocabulary. Probably because you see no need for either one, you think that you have been predestinated.

Another word that you avoid is "Reconciled". "God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD unto himself" If God has reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ then no one needs to be predestinated. There are so many holes in the doctrine of predestination that it is one easy ship to sink.

Ask Mr. Religion
March 8th, 2016, 04:15 PM
The Bible throughly and completely refutes Calvinism.Like I said (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116752-Scriptures-that-Refute-Calvinism/page8&p=4644096#post4644096), this is just your opinion without anything that resembles an argument that can be examined. Moreover, when you receive a proper response to your assertions, the rejoinder is but more opinion laced with invectives, as will be demonstrated by clear evidence linked below.


You apparently believe that there is something wrong with the Bible. Words like "Gospel" or "Justification" are absent from your vocabulary. Probably because you see no need for either one, you think that you have been predestinated.

Nice try, Robert, especially having the temerity to claim I have a problem with the verbal, plenary, inspired Scripture. :AMR1:

I suspect it smarts each time I remind you and the reader of your low view (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?111969-Why-I-Don-t-Believe-in-Calvinism-or-Predestination&p=4402162&viewfull=1#post4402162) of God's special revelation. In obvious desperation, you now try to move the focus from yourself. Sigh.

As for the remainder of your boasts at my expense I direct you to but a few examples that show your claims to be lacking in truthfulness...

Justification in AMR's vocabulary:
Here are at least 100 posts for your careful review:
http://theologyonline.com/search.php?searchid=19645

Gospel in AMR's vocabulary:
Here are at least 100 posts for your careful review:
http://theologyonline.com/search.php?searchid=19648

Q.E.D.


Another word that you avoid is "Reconciled". "God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD unto himself" If God has reconciled the world unto himself by Jesus Christ then no one needs to be predestinated. There are so many holes in the doctrine of predestination that it is one easy ship to sink.

More from me for you to review on the matter of reconciliation:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116567-Jesus-Christ-is-God-s-Predestinated-Elected-Man/page2&p=4633557#post4633557
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?114844-Reformed-Theology-Somewhere-Between&p=4571053&viewfull=1#post4571053
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?114721-Why-Calvinist-Catholics-Muslims-Others-are-Lost&p=4542144&highlight=reconciled#post4542144

Maybe a few folks will see what is going on here. Robert makes wild claims and accusations. At every turn he is met with detailed responses. Robert does not interact with the responses, but just moves on and repeats himself. Robert, a man who considers all churches prostitutes with pimps behind the pulpit (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?111969-Why-I-Don-t-Believe-in-Calvinism-or-Predestination&p=4402162&viewfull=1#post4402162)—yes the very churches that many of us attend and worship together—sits alone somewhere, full of contempt, belching out one repetitive, vile, screed after another. Shamefully, few take Robert to task. It is as if his value as entertainment at the scandalous expense of the brothers and sisters he would claim as but foul customers of houses of ill-repute outweighs the obligation to rebuke him for the glory of God. Sigh.

I do not like making this point, Robert, but it is high time someone called you on your behavior. You, sir, are a liar, an accuser. Repent of your bearing of false witness and be reconciled with us, brother.

AMR

Robert Pate
March 8th, 2016, 05:49 PM
Like I said (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116752-Scriptures-that-Refute-Calvinism/page8&p=4644096#post4644096), this is just your opinion without anything that resembles an argument that can be examined. Moreover, when you receive a proper response to your assertions, the rejoinder is but more opinion laced with invectives, as will be demonstrated by clear evidence linked below.



Nice try, Robert, especially having the temerity to claim I have a problem with the verbal, plenary, inspired Scripture. :AMR1:

I suspect it smarts each time I remind you and the reader of your low view (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?111969-Why-I-Don-t-Believe-in-Calvinism-or-Predestination&p=4402162&viewfull=1#post4402162) of God's special revelation. In obvious desperation, you now try to move the focus from yourself. Sigh.

As for the remainder of your boasts at my expense I direct you to but a few examples that show your claims to be lacking in truthfulness...

Justification in AMR's vocabulary:
Here are at least 100 posts for your careful review:
http://theologyonline.com/search.php?searchid=19645

Gospel in AMR's vocabulary:
Here are at least 100 posts for your careful review:
http://theologyonline.com/search.php?searchid=19648

Q.E.D.



More from me for you to review on the matter of reconciliation:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116567-Jesus-Christ-is-God-s-Predestinated-Elected-Man/page2&p=4633557#post4633557
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?114844-Reformed-Theology-Somewhere-Between&p=4571053&viewfull=1#post4571053
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?114721-Why-Calvinist-Catholics-Muslims-Others-are-Lost&p=4542144&highlight=reconciled#post4542144

Maybe a few folks will see what is going on here. Robert makes wild claims and accusations. At every turn he is met with detailed responses. Robert does not interact with the responses, but just moves on and repeats himself. Robert, a man who considers all churches prostitutes with pimps behind the pulpit (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?111969-Why-I-Don-t-Believe-in-Calvinism-or-Predestination&p=4402162&viewfull=1#post4402162)—yes the very churches that many of us attend and worship together—sits alone somewhere, full of contempt, belching out one repetitive, vile, screed after another. Shamefully, few take Robert to task. It is as if his value as entertainment at the scandalous expense of the brothers and sisters he would claim as but foul customers of houses of ill-repute outweighs the obligation to rebuke him for the glory of God. Sigh.

I do not like making this point, Robert, but it is high time someone called you on your behavior. You, sir, are a liar, an accuser. Repent of your bearing of false witness and be reconciled with us, brother.

AMR

Please do not refer to me as your brother.

Anyone that makes a sham out of the Gospel and justification by faith is not my brother.

What is your explanation for not one scripture in the whole Bible about anyone being predestinated to heaven or to hell?

The word predestination only appears in the Bible 4 times. If it were a true doctrine it would be in the Bible hundreds of times. The words "Believe" and "Faith" appear in the Bible hundreds of times, but not the word predestination.

You are going to be in for a shock in the judgment when you find out that predestination is a Calvinist fairy tale.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 8th, 2016, 06:23 PM
Calvinists do not deny the existence of free-will; we do deny that free-will is absolute. That is to say that there are limits on what a person may actually choose.

A challenge for you. Exercise your free-will and become a Calvinist for 1 week. Choose to believe that which we believe. And not just say that you are, but really become one.

Bet you can't.

Silly example. Are ya sure you don't want to re-think that and use a better scenario?

Crucible
March 8th, 2016, 10:05 PM
Predestination- the belief that everything that will happen has already been decided by God and cannot be changed

People who deny predestination believe, by definition, that God makes mistakes. That the Fall was ultimately due to an ineptitude of the Creator for example.

That is the fallible god of Pateism.

Ask Mr. Religion
March 8th, 2016, 10:23 PM
The word predestination only appears in the Bible 4 times. If it were a true doctrine it would be in the Bible hundreds of times. The words "Believe" and "Faith" appear in the Bible hundreds of times, but not the word predestination.

The triune God is a true doctrine, Robert. Please find even one instance of the word "trinity". Absence of evidence of a word is not evidence that which the word describes is absent. Take every word of Scripture captive, even the infrequent one's, Robert.

Is God divine, Robert? Find the word "divinity" in the Bible.

You are embarrassing yourself with these amateurish complaints.

AMR

TulipBee
March 8th, 2016, 10:23 PM
Pateism is no good.

Robert Pate
March 9th, 2016, 08:59 AM
Predestination- the belief that everything that will happen has already been decided by God and cannot be changed

People who deny predestination believe, by definition, that God makes mistakes. That the Fall was ultimately due to an ineptitude of the Creator for example.

That is the fallible god of Pateism.

You believe that God is a robot who cannot change his mind.

Robert Pate
March 9th, 2016, 09:02 AM
Pateism is no good.


Then you are saying that the Gospel is no good, because that is all that I teach.

The Gospel and justification by faith are what the Bible is about.

Robert Pate
March 9th, 2016, 09:05 AM
The triune God is a true doctrine, Robert. Please find even one instance of the word "trinity". Absence of evidence of a word is not evidence that which the word describes is absent. Take every word of Scripture captive, even the infrequent one's, Robert.

Is God divine, Robert? Find the word "divinity" in the Bible.

You are embarrassing yourself with these amateurish complaints.

AMR

Predestination is a false doctrine that is not supported by scripture.

TulipBee
March 9th, 2016, 10:01 AM
Then you are saying that the Gospel is no good, because that is all that I teach.

The Gospel and justification by faith are what the Bible is about.
Silly boy, Pateism isn't the Gospel

Grosnick Marowbe
March 9th, 2016, 10:44 AM
Pateism is no good.

Neither is the sting of the TulipBee.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 9th, 2016, 10:46 AM
Predestination is a false doctrine that is not supported by scripture.

True. It's a false doctrine created by Augustine and Calvin.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 9th, 2016, 10:49 AM
The Calvinists on this forum like to attack Pate for some reason? Perhaps because he speaks the truth they don't want to hear?

Robert Pate
March 9th, 2016, 12:51 PM
The Calvinists on this forum like to attack Pate for some reason? Perhaps because he speaks the truth they don't want to hear?

The "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ refutes the doctrine of predestination.

Everyone has been reconciled unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. Salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9.

Their problem is not with me, their probem is with the scrptures, which I believe to be true.

Ask Mr. Religion
March 9th, 2016, 12:53 PM
You believe that God is a robot who cannot change his mind.No, we actually believe God's plan includes changes of what happens, only that these have all been decreed from eternity. When you read of God "repenting" of this or that, these are but anthropopathisms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropopathism) made to accommodate our finitude about the One Who is wholly other than us. We know this to be true from the didactic passages of Scripture which clearly state God does not "repent" like man. This is why taking the whole counsel of Scripture into account is important when interpreting isolated passages, as you are so fond of doing, Robert. :AMR:

AMR

Robert Pate
March 9th, 2016, 01:10 PM
No, we actually believe God's plan includes changes of what happens, only that these have all been decreed from eternity. When you read of God "repenting" of this or that, these are but anthropopathisms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropopathism) made to accommodate our finitude about the One Who is wholly other than us. We know this to be true from the didactic passages of Scripture which clearly state God does not "repent" like man. This is why taking the whole counsel of Scripture into account is important when interpreting isolated passages, as you are so fond of doing, Robert. :AMR:

AMR

There are no isolated passages in the Bible. Only the ones that you don't have an answer for.

Like 2 Corinthians 5:19, Hebrews 2:9, 1 Timothy 2:4, Romans 10:13.

You doctrine is in conflict with so many of the scriptures that it is very obvious that you don't believe the Bible.

fishrovmen
March 9th, 2016, 01:24 PM
The Calvinists on this forum like to attack Pate for some reason? Perhaps because he speaks the truth they don't want to hear?
First of all, I don't recall more than two who claim to be Calvinist tell Pate he is going to hell because of his doctrine, yet Robert has for years attacked Calvinists and Catholics in his threads that all basically say the same thing, telling them they are unbelievers, void of the Holy Spirit, going to hell, false teachers etc.. It would be one thing if he actually took the time to listen to the answers people give and engage in serious, open minded discussion; but he refuses to at least try to understand and just starts another thread repeating the same caricatures and false conclusions that he has been corrected on too many times from multiple TOL members.
Second of all, Pates doctrine, the way he presents it, is unbiblical, extremely confusing, heretical, illogical, subject to change not only from thread to thread, but even in the same post!!
When questioned to the point where he has no answer, he gives one of his famous go-to replies such as "it will all be clear in the judgment" or "you don't understand because you don't have the Holy Spirit" etc..
How many threads have you seen from the Catholics or Calvinists that are directed toward "Pateism"? Even if one exists, it doesn't even begin to measure against the scores that he has against them.
So really, who is actually on the attack GM?

Grosnick Marowbe
March 9th, 2016, 03:21 PM
First of all, I don't recall more than two who claim to be Calvinist tell Pate he is going to hell because of his doctrine, yet Robert has for years attacked Calvinists and Catholics in his threads that all basically say the same thing, telling them they are unbelievers, void of the Holy Spirit, going to hell, false teachers etc.. It would be one thing if he actually took the time to listen to the answers people give and engage in serious, open minded discussion; but he refuses to at least try to understand and just starts another thread repeating the same caricatures and false conclusions that he has been corrected on too many times from multiple TOL members.
Second of all, Pates doctrine, the way he presents it, is unbiblical, extremely confusing, heretical, illogical, subject to change not only from thread to thread, but even in the same post!!
When questioned to the point where he has no answer, he gives one of his famous go-to replies such as "it will all be clear in the judgment" or "you don't understand because you don't have the Holy Spirit" etc..
How many threads have you seen from the Catholics or Calvinists that are directed toward "Pateism"? Even if one exists, it doesn't even begin to measure against the scores that he has against them.
So really, who is actually on the attack GM?

You claim Pate's posts to be, unbiblical, extremely confusing, heretical and illogical. I don't see it that way. It's probably because I don't think like a Calvinist. Calvinists have been indoctrinated by John Calvin, Reformed Theology, and St. Augustine. They have the predisposition to interpret Scripture in light of their chosen belief system. We all are. I grew up in California for the better part of my life and attended a non-denominational, Christ centered, Bible believing, conservative church. I attended that church from the year 1962 through 2008. I have since moved to a different state and have "tried out" a few churches. I have yet to find one. In the 1970s, I started listening to a Presbyterian (Reformed theology/Calvinist) radio station which I enjoyed. They would present John MacArthur and other Calvinist preachers. I have to admit, I temporarily was coaxed into a Calvinist mindset. In fact, I actually leaned towards "Predestinational" thought. It didn't last long although. When I moved from California to be with my Son and other loved ones, I purchased a New King James Version of the Bible and began to read and study the word of God in greater depth. I now can say that the Lord set me straight on a lot of different issues. One of those issues was the lack of validity of Reformed Calvinist belief. I'm thoroughly convinced that God's Holy Inspired Written Word does not back up the Calvinist belief system. I unashamedly consider myself a "Dispensationalist to the Core." I'm a believer/follower of the Pauline Gospel which was given to Paul by the "Ascended Lord Jesus Christ." I believe that "The Grace Gospel" covers both Jew and Gentile in this "Dispensation of Grace." I do not waver in this truthful Gospel of Grace through faith alone.

Crucible
March 9th, 2016, 04:14 PM
The Calvinists on this forum like to attack Pate for some reason? Perhaps because he speaks the truth they don't want to hear?

We're not the one's who do the attacking. It's Pate who makes myriads of anti-Calvinist threads and posts day in and day out, every single day for what I can only assume has been the entirety of his time on here.

So that's just a bunch of nonsense, he's just reaping what he sows with that.

And, if you find Pate to be some extraordinary measure of truth, than it's no wonder that you share such weak argumentation as him :chuckle:

Grosnick Marowbe
March 9th, 2016, 04:19 PM
We're not the one's who do the attacking. It's Pate who makes myriads of anti-Calvinist threads and posts day in and day out, every single day for what I can only assume has been the entirety of his time on here.

So that's just a bunch of nonsense, he's just reaping what he sows with that.

And, if you find Pate to be some extraordinary measure of truth, than it's no wonder that you share such weak argumentation as him :chuckle:

I have bad news for you. I consider you my " Unequal." Your IQ is the same size as your shoelace, no doubt.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 9th, 2016, 04:24 PM
Hey Cruc, it would be best if you worked on your posts. You come off as some type of slow-witted poster that, has himself as his greatest fan. Just trying to help ya.

fishrovmen
March 9th, 2016, 04:48 PM
[QUOTE=Grosnick Marowbe;4645748]You claim Pate's posts to be, unbiblical, extremely confusing, heretical and illogical.[/tQUOTE]

No I didn't. I said that the way he presents his beliefs is all of the above. And that is the whole problem that I and many others including non calvinists and non catholics have with him. I have, as well as many others, tried to patiently explain to him the problems with his conclusions only to be told one of those responses mentioned earlier.
AMR has several times posted a collection of Pates beliefs that clearly show how he has said one thing in one thread and then the opposite in another thread.
He has already told me that God doesn't even see people. He has said numerous times that God imputes previously forgiven sins that were destroyed back to people. He said in one post that God has reconciled the whole world to God but you need to receive it to be reconciled. I think I understand what he is trying to say but he is not presenting it in a way that makes sense.
I could go on and on but the point I am trying to make is that it is crystal clear that he doesn't think through his own beliefs enough to see the obvious contradictions but he would rather spend his limited precious time continually telling other people what he THINKS they believe, even though he has been told that he is wrong.
I have never met a Calvinist nor a Catholic who said they don't need Jesus or that their hope is in John Calvin or the Pope, yet that's what Robert posts over and over again.
That is false witness !!!
I completely understand that he doesn't understand how people can believe in Calvinism or Catholicism because no one else can understand how he can believe in Pateism.
At least the majority of those who don't understand pateism take the time to ask questions of him, trying to figure him out, rather than create a myriad of threads filled with false witness and caricatures of things they dont understand.

Crucible
March 9th, 2016, 04:58 PM
You claim Pate's posts to be (...) illogical.

Yes

ILLOGICAL

You all condemn sound reason and sober logic for nonsensical, bizarre, and contradictory thinking.

Brother Ducky
March 9th, 2016, 09:30 PM
Silly example. Are ya sure you don't want to re-think that and use a better scenario?

Frankly I do not think it is silly. If one has absolute free-will one should be able to change one's belief system, right? So, why not change from being a Pateist to being a Calvinist?

The thing is, while there is indeed free-will, its exercise is limited by who and what you are at the moment of exercise. Despite your claim of free-will, you are limited by, among other things, what you believe at any given moment. You believe that Calvinist is wrong on various points, and because of that you just can not exercise your free-will and become a Calvinist.

In the same way, the natural man is inherently dead set against the things of God. AMR has posted a Biblical anthropology showing what the natural man is and why he can not just exercise his free-will and become a Christian.

If you think this is incorrect, then come up with a Biblical anthropology showing how the natural man can exercise his free-will and become a Christian.

TulipBee
March 10th, 2016, 07:06 AM
Why do folks, here, keep feeding trolls? Don't you guys have better things to do?

Robert Pate
March 10th, 2016, 08:27 AM
Frankly I do not think it is silly. If one has absolute free-will one should be able to change one's belief system, right? So, why not change from being a Pateist to being a Calvinist?

The thing is, while there is indeed free-will, its exercise is limited by who and what you are at the moment of exercise. Despite your claim of free-will, you are limited by, among other things, what you believe at any given moment. You believe that Calvinist is wrong on various points, and because of that you just can not exercise your free-will and become a Calvinist.

In the same way, the natural man is inherently dead set against the things of God. AMR has posted a Biblical anthropology showing what the natural man is and why he can not just exercise his free-will and become a Christian.

If you think this is incorrect, then come up with a Biblical anthropology showing how the natural man can exercise his free-will and become a Christian.


We have the freedom to believe anything that we want to believe.

Adam did not lose his free will in the fall, what he lost was his relationship with God.

As long as a man has the ability to sin he has a free will.

In the New Testment people come to Christ by hearing and believing the Gospel, Romans 10:17.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 10th, 2016, 09:24 AM
Why do folks, here, keep feeding trolls? Don't you guys have better things to do?

Well, if we don't feed you, you'll starve. I don't want that on my conscience.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 10th, 2016, 09:28 AM
Frankly I do not think it is silly. If one has absolute free-will one should be able to change one's belief system, right? So, why not change from being a Pateist to being a Calvinist?



Or, why not become a Baptist or a Buddhist? We truly have free will and can choose whatever we want to believe in. In fact, why don't you choose to become a member of the Body of Christ?

Grosnick Marowbe
March 10th, 2016, 09:32 AM
Frankly I do not think it is silly. If one has absolute free-will one should be able to change one's belief system, right? So, why not change from being a Pateist to being a Calvinist?

The thing is, while there is indeed free-will, its exercise is limited by who and what you are at the moment of exercise. Despite your claim of free-will, you are limited by, among other things, what you believe at any given moment. You believe that Calvinist is wrong on various points, and because of that you just can not exercise your free-will and become a Calvinist.

In the same way, the natural man is inherently dead set against the things of God. AMR has posted a Biblical anthropology showing what the natural man is and why he can not just exercise his free-will and become a Christian.

If you think this is incorrect, then come up with a Biblical anthropology showing how the natural man can exercise his free-will and become a Christian.

AMR is a smart guy, however, that doesn't make him right.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 10th, 2016, 09:41 AM
[QUOTE=Grosnick Marowbe;4645748]You claim Pate's posts to be, unbiblical, extremely confusing, heretical and illogical.[/tQUOTE]

No I didn't. I said that the way he presents his beliefs is all of the above. And that is the whole problem that I and many others including non calvinists and non catholics have with him. I have, as well as many others, tried to patiently explain to him the problems with his conclusions only to be told one of those responses mentioned earlier.
AMR has several times posted a collection of Pates beliefs that clearly show how he has said one thing in one thread and then the opposite in another thread.
He has already told me that God doesn't even see people. He has said numerous times that God imputes previously forgiven sins that were destroyed back to people. He said in one post that God has reconciled the whole world to God but you need to receive it to be reconciled. I think I understand what he is trying to say but he is not presenting it in a way that makes sense.
I could go on and on but the point I am trying to make is that it is crystal clear that he doesn't think through his own beliefs enough to see the obvious contradictions but he would rather spend his limited precious time continually telling other people what he THINKS they believe, even though he has been told that he is wrong.
I have never met a Calvinist nor a Catholic who said they don't need Jesus or that their hope is in John Calvin or the Pope, yet that's what Robert posts over and over again.
That is false witness !!!
I completely understand that he doesn't understand how people can believe in Calvinism or Catholicism because no one else can understand how he can believe in Pateism.
At least the majority of those who don't understand pateism take the time to ask questions of him, trying to figure him out, rather than create a myriad of threads filled with false witness and caricatures of things they dont understand.

My experience with Calvinists has been, they quite often say; "You don't understand Calvinism." Even if one does, the Calvinist will still say the same thing, "You don't understand Calvinism." That's quite annoying. Anyone who has access to a Laptop can learn about the tenets of Calvinism.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 10th, 2016, 09:43 AM
Yes

ILLOGICAL

You all condemn sound reason and sober logic for nonsensical, bizarre, and contradictory thinking.

You're a Catholic, right?

fishrovmen
March 10th, 2016, 11:19 AM
[QUOTE=fishrovmen;4645817]

My experience with Calvinists has been, they quite often say; "You don't understand Calvinism." Even if one does, the Calvinist will still say the same thing, "You don't understand Calvinism." That's quite annoying. Anyone who has access to a Laptop can learn about the tenets of Calvinism.

Pates latest thread just proves my point. If you don't believe as he does that means that you dont believe the Gospel.

Brother Ducky
March 10th, 2016, 01:47 PM
AMR is a smart guy, however, that doesn't make him right.

This from AMR, but not quite what I was thinking of.

Every unregenerate person is a sinner (Romans 3:23), spiritually dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1), possessing a deceitful heart (Jeremiah 17:9), is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23), wholly unable to understand spiritual truths (1 Corinthians 2:14), is unrighteous, does not understand and does not seek for God (Romans 3:10-12), is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6), is a slave to his own sin nature (Romans 6:14-20), is hostile in mind and deed to God (Colossians 1:21), loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19), is dead in his trespasses and sins (Ephesians 2:1), naturally and rightfully are objects of God's wrath (Ephesians 2:3), and unless elected to salvation by God, are destined to eternal condemnation in Hell—a place of outer darkness, a lake of fire, a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, a place of eternal separation from the blessings of God, a prison, a place of torment where the worm doesn’t turn or die (Matthew 8:11-12; Mark 9:42-48; Luke 16:19-31; Jude 1:3-13; Revelation 20:11-15).

Because of their sinful condition (Romans 6:14-20), the unregenerate do not and cannot freely choose to believe the gospel (Romans 3:10-12; Romans 6:14-20) and that they cannot come to God unless it has been granted to them, such that no one might boast (1 Corinthians 1:17-20; John 1:13), from the Father (John 6:65) who appoints them to eternal life (Acts 13:48 ) and grants that they believe (Philippians 1:29).

He supports his assertions with Scripture. Now if you wish to disagree it seems to me that you can argue that he misapplies the verses or that he misinterprets the verses. You just can not say he is wrong and you are right.

Brother Ducky
March 10th, 2016, 02:07 PM
[QUOTE=fishrovmen;4645817]

My experience with Calvinists has been, they quite often say; "You don't understand Calvinism." Even if one does, the Calvinist will still say the same thing, "You don't understand Calvinism." That's quite annoying. Anyone who has access to a Laptop can learn about the tenets of Calvinism.

True enough about the ease of access to Calvinistic doctrine. However, when it comes to Mr. Pate, he either does not understand Calvinist, because he insists that we believe stuff that few if any actually believe, and genuinely does not understand Calvinism; or what is infinitely worse, he lies about it.

Brother Ducky
March 10th, 2016, 02:25 PM
Or, why not become a Baptist or a Buddhist? We truly have free will and can choose whatever we want to believe in. In fact, why don't you choose to become a member of the Body of Christ?


Well since you have eschewed all man-made writings for just the Bible, how about some Scripture to support your assertions.

I can [and have] worshiped with Baptists. I understand the reasons for holding to Believer's Baptism, but feel they do not "get" the covenantal nature of Christianity, so I would be unable to join a Baptistic church. Buddhism is completely off the table, but it is interesting that you consider it equal to being a Baptist.

I am glad that you have found your niche as Nanja to his B57. But do you really have to go to his belief that if you differ from Patism you are damned?

And remember, I do not hold to a free-will salvation, so I could not so choose. However, he did choose me and brought me to himself. Ain't God good? Because we could not choose him.

Brother Ducky
March 10th, 2016, 02:28 PM
We have the freedom to believe anything that we want to believe.

Adam did not lose his free will in the fall, what he lost was his relationship with God.

As long as a man has the ability to sin he has a free will.

In the New Testment people come to Christ by hearing and believing the Gospel, Romans 10:17.

Show me from Scripture where free-will [which Calvinists do not deny] extends to salvation.

Robert Pate
March 10th, 2016, 05:57 PM
Well since you have eschewed all man-made writings for just the Bible, how about some Scripture to support your assertions.

I can [and have] worshiped with Baptists. I understand the reasons for holding to Believer's Baptism, but feel they do not "get" the covenantal nature of Christianity, so I would be unable to join a Baptistic church. Buddhism is completely off the table, but it is interesting that you consider it equal to being a Baptist.

I am glad that you have found your niche as Nanja to his B57. But do you really have to go to his belief that if you differ from Patism you are damned?

And remember, I do not hold to a free-will salvation, so I could not so choose. However, he did choose me and brought me to himself. Ain't God good? Because we could not choose him.

There is no salvation outside of Christ and his Gospel. You are trying to be saved by another Gospel that is not the Gospel, Galatians 1:7.

Robert Pate
March 10th, 2016, 06:00 PM
Show me from Scripture where free-will [which Calvinists do not deny] extends to salvation.

All who believe in Jesus by their own free will have eternal life, John 3:18.

Brother Ducky
March 10th, 2016, 06:40 PM
All who believe in Jesus by their own free will have eternal life, John 3:18.

Great verse. Which translation are you using that says it is on the basis of free-will? The one that comes up with reftagger in your post does not have the reference to free-will.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 10th, 2016, 07:35 PM
Great verse. Which translation are you using that says it is on the basis of free-will? The one that comes up with reftagger in your post does not have the reference to free-will.

Silly response. No offence. I just think it was a "silly response."

Grosnick Marowbe
March 10th, 2016, 07:37 PM
All who believe in Jesus by their own free will have eternal life, John 3:18.

Amen. The "free-will" is built into the verse. Those who have no discernment will not agree, though. Too bad huh?

Brother Ducky
March 10th, 2016, 07:55 PM
Silly response. No offence. I just think it was a "silly response."

Oh, what is silly about it?

Brother Ducky
March 10th, 2016, 08:02 PM
Amen. The "free-will" is built into the verse. Those who have no discernment will not agree, though. Too bad huh?

So, discernment is reading into the Word of God?

Free-will is not "built into" the verse. It might be there, or it might not be there. That would call for further exploration of the totality of Scripture.

Free-will is not inherent to the verse.

Ask Mr. Religion
March 10th, 2016, 11:46 PM
The Calvinists on this forum like to attack Pate for some reason? Perhaps because he speaks the truth they don't want to hear?
GM,

There are only two, b57 and Nanja, who are both hyper-Calvinists, that I have ever witnessed actually attacking Robert to the point of declaring him lost and hell-bound. I have never done so, nor has any other Calvinist that I know of here at TOL. If you are honest with yourself, you will admit this, and admit that Robert is always ready to declare anyone who disagrees with him as not being saved. Do you consider me a brother in the faith, GM?

I have been quite clear to note Robert's own words when taking him to task when he posts the half-truths and plainly incorrect views he holds about Calvinism. I have also very carefully pointed out the many accusations he makes, e.g., here:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116752-Scriptures-that-Refute-Calvinism&p=4644900&viewfull=1#post4644900

I clearly demonstrate from evidence all can examine that Robert is bearing false witness. He remains unrepentant, even in the face of the evidence, preferring to ignore what is plain for all to see and just continue to move on to yet more naked claims that he thinks form actual arguments for his odd views:


There are no isolated passages in the Bible. Only the ones that you don't have an answer for.

Like 2 Corinthians 5:19, Hebrews 2:9, 1 Timothy 2:4, Romans 10:13.

You doctrine is in conflict with so many of the scriptures that it is very obvious that you don't believe the Bible.

No matter how often he is answered (and he has been), Robert will ignore the answer and then tee up a few more verses he has picked out of Scripture and start all over again as shown in the above. Robert is simply not interested in actual discussion and defense of his claims. Robert just wants to post repetitive vitriol.

GM, you readily come to Robert's defense, yet you seem unwilling to actually confront a brother and offer correction. Is your disdain for Calvinism so great that you will overlook errors in another to the point of being seen as actually partaking in the same errors? One wonders exactly where you actually stand. For example,

Do you believe the Bible is full of errors?
Do you believe we should not consider the Bible as a book to live by?
Do you believe that God does not know everything that is happening on earth?
Do you believe God does not know who will believe the gospel?
Do you believe that there is no such thing as eternal punishment in Hell for the lost?
Do you believe that all visible churches are but the whores of Rev. 17:5?
Do you refuse to attend any local church?

If you agree with Robert, then your answer to these questions will be his answer to them all: YES. Do you also answer "yes" to these questions?

Your post suggests my complaints about Robert are because he is saying things I do not want to hear. Actually, my complaint has no connection to this at all. Robert has not said anything that has not been said, responded to, and shown to be not as definitive as Robert would like to believe. My complaint is that Robert is an accuser and a liar (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116752-Scriptures-that-Refute-Calvinism&p=4644900&viewfull=1#post4644900). The facts are in evidence. I have made the reasons clear as to why I claim as such. I am not just making things up as your post quoted above implies. Robert refuses to repent of his bearing of false witness. Robert ignores responses to charges laid at his feet. Yet, you seem quite ready to associate yourself with him (Proverbs 6:16-19; Proverbs 26:17; Proverbs 18:13; Proverbs 26:8; Proverbs 29:20; Proverbs 19:5,9; Proverbs 28.23; Proverbs 12:26).

AMR

Grosnick Marowbe
March 11th, 2016, 12:34 AM
GM,

There are only two, b57 and Nanja, who are both hyper-Calvinists, that I have ever witnessed actually attacking Robert to the point of declaring him lost and hell-bound. I have never done so, nor has any other Calvinist that I know of here at TOL. If you are honest with yourself, you will admit this, and admit that Robert is always ready to declare anyone who disagrees with him as not being saved. Do you consider me a brother in the faith, GM?

I have been quite clear to note Robert's own words when taking him to task when he posts the half-truths and plainly incorrect views he holds about Calvinism. I have also very carefully pointed out the many accusations he makes, e.g., here:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116752-Scriptures-that-Refute-Calvinism&p=4644900&viewfull=1#post4644900

I clearly demonstrate from evidence all can examine that Robert is bearing false witness. He remains unrepentant, even in the face of the evidence, preferring to ignore what is plain for all to see and just continue to move on to yet more naked claims that he thinks form actual arguments for his odd views:



No matter how often he is answered (and he has been), Robert will ignore the answer and then tee up a few more verses he has picked out of Scripture and start all over again as shown in the above. Robert is simply not interested in actual discussion and defense of his claims. Robert just wants to post repetitive vitriol.

GM, you readily come to Robert's defense, yet you seem unwilling to actually confront a brother and offer correction. Is your disdain for Calvinism so great that you will overlook errors in another to the point of being seen as actually partaking in the same errors? One wonders exactly where you actually stand. For example,

Do you believe the Bible is full of errors?
Do you believe we should not consider the Bible as a book to live by?
Do you believe that God does not know everything that is happening on earth?
Do you believe God does not know who will believe the gospel?
Do you believe that there is no such thing as eternal punishment in Hell for the lost?
Do you believe that all visible churches are but the whores of Rev. 17:5?
Do you refuse to attend any local church?

If you agree with Robert, then your answer to these questions will be his answer to them all: YES. Do you also answer "yes" to these questions?

Your post suggests my complaints about Robert are because he is saying things I do not want to hear. Actually, my complaint has no connection to this at all. Robert has not said anything that has not been said, responded to, and shown to be not as definitive as Robert would like to believe. My complaint is that Robert is an accuser and a liar (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116752-Scriptures-that-Refute-Calvinism&p=4644900&viewfull=1#post4644900). The facts are in evidence. I have made the reasons clear as to why I claim as such. I am not just making things up as your post quoted above implies. Robert refuses to repent of his bearing of false witness. Robert ignores responses to charges laid at his feet. Yet, you seem quite ready to associate yourself with him (Proverbs 6:16-19; Proverbs 26:17; Proverbs 18:13; Proverbs 26:8; Proverbs 29:20; Proverbs 19:5,9; Proverbs 28.23; Proverbs 12:26).

AMR

I'm with you on the things you posted above. I haven't seen Pate post any of those things? I've only seen a few things where I've disagreed with him. B57 and Nanja are a couple of "Fringe Calvinists."I have a problem with Calvinism (Reformed theology) when it comes to:

1) Their refusal to not see any active free-will within the entire Bible.
2) Their belief that God chose before the foundation of the world who
would be saved (The Elect) and who would be damned for eternity.
3) Some Calvinists believe that God creates all of mankind's sins.
4) The belief that one must be regenerated before receiving saving faith.
5) One does not have the ability to place their faith in Jesus Christ as
their Savior, after hearing the Gospel, unless they are one of the chosen
Elect.

Calvinists look at Scripture and interpret it according to their belief system. In my opinion, Calvinism changes the character and intent of the God of the Bible. I do not recognize the Calvinist god? I have read and studied the entire Bible cover to cover, word for word and name by name. I still continue to read and study it. I see free-will practiced all through the Old and New Testaments. I've been a believer since about 1962-63. I'm 65 years old. I just do not see ANY Calvinistic truth in the entire written word of God. I always pray before I open the word of God, that God will give me wisdom and knowledge to fully understand what I'm about to read.

In order to receive eternal life:

1) One must hear the true Gospel of their salvation.
2) Admit they're a lost sinner in need of a Savior.
3) Place their entire faith in Jesus Christ as their
Savior.
4) Be sealed, indwelled, and baptized (not by water)
into the Body of Christ by the Holy Spirit.
5) They also receive the righteousness of Christ and
a guarantee of eternal life.

Christ died for the sins of ALL mankind, however, only
those who place their faith in Christ alone will reap
the benefits. Those who reject God's Grace will stand
before God and be judged by their works and cast into
the Lake of Fire along with the devil and his fallen
angels. This is an eternal punishment for rejecting
God's free gift of His Grace. No one spends eternity
in the Lake of Fire because of their sins. That punishment
is reserved for those who reject God's Grace.

Ask Mr. Religion
March 11th, 2016, 12:41 AM
I'm with you on the things you posted above. I haven't seen Pate post any of those things?

Pate's own words appear collected in one place here:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?111969-Why-I-Don-t-Believe-in-Calvinism-or-Predestination&p=4402162&viewfull=1#post4402162

What are your answers to the following...

Do you believe the Bible is full of errors?
Do you believe we should not consider the Bible as a book to live by?
Do you believe that God does not know everything that is happening on earth?
Do you believe God does not know who will believe the gospel?
Do you believe that there is no such thing as eternal punishment in Hell for the lost?
Do you believe that all visible churches are but the whores of Rev. 17:5?
Do you refuse to attend any local church?

AMR

Ask Mr. Religion
March 11th, 2016, 12:51 AM
1) Their refusal to not see any active free-will within the entire Bible.

Let's assume you are correct. I take it that you mean by "free-will" an ability to do otherwise than what one actually did do. That is, a person who freely made a particular choice could have chosen differently, even if nothing about the past prior to the moment of choice had been different.

Scripture teaches us that the unsaved person

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- is not able to come to Jesus unless given to by God (Eph. 2:2)
- must be quickened by God (Eph. 2:4-5)
- cannot choose righteousness until regenerated (Titus 3:5)
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

How do you reconcile these few samples from Scripture about the moral state of the unsaved person with your view of free will?


AMR

Grosnick Marowbe
March 11th, 2016, 01:05 AM
AMR, I believe that you are a child of God if you have placed ALL your faith in Christ as your Savior and none in yourself (except for your faith) or anything else. As the song says: "Jesus paid it ALL, All to Him I owe."

Grosnick Marowbe
March 11th, 2016, 01:09 AM
And remember, I do not hold to a free-will salvation, so I could not so choose. However, he did choose me and brought me to himself. Ain't God good? Because we could not choose him.


We MUST agree to disagree. I'm comfortable with that solution. how about you?

Ask Mr. Religion
March 11th, 2016, 01:46 AM
AMR, I believe that you are a child of God if you have placed ALL your faith in Christ as your Savior and none in yourself (except for your faith) or anything else. As the song says: "Jesus paid it ALL, All to Him I owe." @Grosnick Marowbe (http://theologyonline.com/member.php?u=13925)

How does this relate to:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116752-Scriptures-that-Refute-Calvinism&p=4646894&viewfull=1#post4646894

Can you also return to this:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116752-Scriptures-that-Refute-Calvinism&p=4646893&viewfull=1#post4646893

If you do not want to respond, just say so and I will drop the matter.

AMR

Grosnick Marowbe
March 11th, 2016, 02:14 AM
@Grosnick Marowbe (http://theologyonline.com/member.php?u=13925)

How does this relate to:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116752-Scriptures-that-Refute-Calvinism&p=4646894&viewfull=1#post4646894

Can you also return to this:
http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116752-Scriptures-that-Refute-Calvinism&p=4646893&viewfull=1#post4646893

If you do not want to respond, just say so and I will drop the matter.

AMR

I have sent you a PM. Please let me know if you received it?

Grosnick Marowbe
March 11th, 2016, 07:53 AM
Show me from Scripture where free-will [which Calvinists do not deny] extends to salvation.

Yes, you do. Calvinists believe that one is first regenerated then they receive saving faith. They also believe they were chosen as the Elect before the foundation of the world. They also believe that man is so depraved that they can not/will not come to Christ.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 11th, 2016, 07:56 AM
Duplicate

Robert Pate
March 11th, 2016, 09:20 AM
Yes, you do. Calvinists believe that one is first regenerated then they receive saving faith. They also believe they were chosen as the Elect before the foundation of the world. They also believe that man is so depraved that they can not/will not come to Christ.

What they believe is not of the spirit. They do not believe that Jesus is the savior of the world.

andyc
March 11th, 2016, 12:35 PM
You apparently believe that there is something wrong with the Bible.

You're the only one I've seen questioning the scripture. Cross examining James?
When you start questioning how inspired various books/letters are in the bible, you're on shaky ground.

andyc
March 11th, 2016, 12:39 PM
Predestination is a false doctrine that is not supported by scripture.

Predetermination you mean (Rom 8:30)?

andyc
March 11th, 2016, 12:42 PM
True. It's a false doctrine created by Augustine and Calvin.

Predestination simply means to foresee the future, and and be involved in a course correction.

Brother Ducky
March 11th, 2016, 12:55 PM
[/B]

We MUST agree to disagree. I'm comfortable with that solution. how about you?

I have no problem with that. I suspect there are very few things that we have to agree on to be Christian brothers and sisters.

I would feel better about it if you at least tried to come up with a Biblical basis for holding to a free-will salvation. Or deal with the verses posed that indicate that a free-will salvation would not be possible.

Robert Pate
March 11th, 2016, 12:55 PM
You're the only one I've seen questioning the scripture. Cross examining James?
When you start questioning how inspired various books/letters are in the bible, you're on shaky ground.

James was one of the first books of the New Testament.

Many, including James, did not understand that the law had been abolished, Colossians 2:14.

Therefore, James had a law based theology, Acts 15:21.

Robert Pate
March 11th, 2016, 01:05 PM
Predetermination you mean (Rom 8:20)?

There is no scripture that says anyone one has been or will be predestinated to heaven or to hell.

Brother Ducky
March 11th, 2016, 01:25 PM
Yes, you do. Calvinists believe that one is first regenerated then they receive saving faith. They also believe they were chosen as the Elect before the foundation of the world. They also believe that man is so depraved that they can not/will not come to Christ.

I assume that the "Yes, you do" is meant to say that Calvinists deny free-will.

From the Westminster Confession of Faith:

Chapter IX
Of Free Will

I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.[1]

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God;[2] but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.[3]

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:[4] so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,[5] and dead in sin,[6] is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.[7]

IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.[10]

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.[11]

[1] MAT 17:12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. JAM 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. DEU 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.

[2] ECC 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

[3] GEN 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

[4] ROM 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. JOH 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

[5] ROM 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

[6] EPH 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins. 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved). COL 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses.

[7] JOH 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. EPH 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;). 1CO 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. TIT 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

[8] COL 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son. JOH 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

[9] PHI 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. ROM 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

[10] GAL 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. ROM 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 18 For I know that in me(that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

[11] EPH 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ. HEB 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect. 1JO 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. JUD 24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy.

We do not deny all free-will. We deny, on the basis of the nature of fallen human beings, that without the monergistic regeneration by God we could or would come to Christ. Within this thread there are many verses to support our belief about the inability of fallen man to respond to God by his own free-will. Again, if you think this is incorrect, refute the verses supplied and/or develop your own Biblical theology of free-will salvation. If Pate is correct in his belief that four or less verses stating a truth is no proof at all [except for his re-imputation of sin doctrine, but that is another matter]there should be at least five verses that show free-will salvation.

Brother Ducky
March 11th, 2016, 01:29 PM
There is no scripture that says anyone one has been or will be predestinated to heaven or to hell.

Acts 13:48

fishrovmen
March 11th, 2016, 01:31 PM
What they believe is not of the spirit. They do not believe that Jesus is the savior of the world.

If you mean that Jesus is the Savior of every single person who ever lived, you dont believe that either.

Ask Mr. Religion
March 11th, 2016, 02:43 PM
I have sent you a PM. Please let me know if you received it? Grosnick Marowbe

As per your post above, in relation to my questions (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116752-Scriptures-that-Refute-Calvinism/page13&p=4646903#post4646903), no PM has been received, GM.

AMR

Grosnick Marowbe
March 11th, 2016, 04:02 PM
Grosnick Marowbe

As per your post above, in relation to my questions (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116752-Scriptures-that-Refute-Calvinism/page13&p=4646903#post4646903), no PM has been received, GM.

AMR

It may be a problem with my Laptop and the new TOL program? I'll try again later.

andyc
March 11th, 2016, 04:21 PM
James was one of the first books of the New Testament.

Many, including James, did not understand that the law had been abolished, Colossians 2:14.

Therefore, James had a law based theology, Acts 15:21.

You're going to have to come up with proof of this. There's nothing written in James that contradicts grace. Not in the slightest.
You are simply not able to understand James.

andyc
March 11th, 2016, 04:31 PM
There is no scripture that says anyone one has been or will be predestinated to heaven or to hell.

Wrong.

Scripture teaches predestination according to foreknowledge. 'Predetermination' is the Calvinist position you're disagreeing with.

Think of predestination like this, when you see a ship sail into the horizon, you cant see where it's destination is. But if you are lifted up, you can see beyond the horizon. Everybodys destination is hell without divine intervention to correct the course. It is God who intervenes according to foreknowledge, and alters the destination to a new course determined by God before the worlds were formed (Rom 8:29).

Samie
March 11th, 2016, 05:07 PM
Wrong.

Scripture teaches predestination according to foreknowledge. 'Predetermination' is the Calvinist position you're disagreeing with.

Think of predestination like this, when you see a ship sail into the horizon, you cant see where it's destination is. But if you are lifted up, you can see beyond the horizon. Everybodys destination is hell without divine intervention to correct the course. It is God who intervenes according to foreknowledge, and alters the destination to a new course determined by God before the worlds were formed (Rom 8:29).God Who shows no partiality, predestined all of Adam's race as His adopted children through Jesus (Eph 1:3-5), wrote all their names in the registry of heaven, the book of life, BUT only overcomers will not be blotted out from it (Rev 3:5).

For as long as one's name remains written in the book of life, he is heaven-bound (Rev 21:27). And people are born with their names written in the book of life. Only Christ can blot out one's name from there. And He will do this for those who in their lifetime chose to be overcome of evil instead of overcoming evil with good (Rom 12:21; Rev 3:5).

The good news is there is hope while alive, because it is only AFTER a person dies that judgment is rendered (Heb 9:27) whether to blot his name or not from the book of life. God waits for man throughout his lifetime to become overcomers of evil.

Robert Pate
March 11th, 2016, 05:27 PM
If you mean that Jesus is the Savior of every single person who ever lived, you dont believe that either.

As far as God is concerned Jesus has defeated sin, death and the devil and has reconciled the world unto him, 2 Corintians 5:19.

You don't believe that do you?

fishrovmen
March 11th, 2016, 06:16 PM
As far as God is concerned Jesus has defeated sin, death and the devil and has reconciled the world unto him, 2 Corintians 5:19.

You don't believe that do you?

Does this mean that Jesus is the Savior of every person who ever lived?

Grosnick Marowbe
March 11th, 2016, 07:20 PM
Wrong.

Scripture teaches predestination according to foreknowledge. 'Predetermination' is the Calvinist position you're disagreeing with.

Think of predestination like this, when you see a ship sail into the horizon, you cant see where it's destination is. But if you are lifted up, you can see beyond the horizon. Everybodys destination is hell without divine intervention to correct the course. It is God who intervenes according to foreknowledge, and alters the destination to a new course determined by God before the worlds were formed (Rom 8:29).

Bad analogy.

Grosnick Marowbe
March 11th, 2016, 07:23 PM
You're going to have to come up with proof of this. There's nothing written in James that contradicts grace. Not in the slightest.
You are simply not able to understand James.

James was written to the scattered tribes of Israel, not to the Gentiles/Body of Christ.

Robert Pate
March 12th, 2016, 03:28 PM
Does this mean that Jesus is the Savior of every person who ever lived?

Salvation has been provided for every one that has ever lived.

It is God's great free gift, Romans 5:18.

But it is not yours if you don't receive it, John 1:12.

Brother Ducky
March 12th, 2016, 04:53 PM
Salvation has been provided for every one that has ever lived.

It is God's great free gift, Romans 5:18.

But it is not yours if you don't receive it, John 1:12.

So, Jesus is the potential Savior of the world, and the actual Savior of some certain persons?

Robert Pate
March 12th, 2016, 05:01 PM
So, Jesus is the potential Savior of the world, and the actual Savior of some certain persons?

As far as God is concerned Jesus has defeated sin, death and the devil and is Lord, Acts 2:36.

And is the savior of those who receive him, John 1:12.

Brother Ducky
March 12th, 2016, 06:56 PM
As far as God is concerned Jesus has defeated sin, death and the devil and is Lord, Acts 2:36.

And is the savior of those who receive him, John 1:12.

So the answer is yes, Jesus is sufficient for the salvation of all, but is the actual savior of some certain persons.

Nanja
March 12th, 2016, 07:05 PM
And is the savior of those who receive him, John 1:12.



A person can only receive Him in a way that leads to Salvation after they have been given a New Nature, because scripture attests to the fact that that the natural man cannot discern Spiritual things.

1 Cor. 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


Nor can the natural man do anything that can pleases God!

Rom. 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


John 3:27
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

Rom. 5:5
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

~~~~~

Ask Mr. Religion
March 12th, 2016, 07:13 PM
As far as God is concerned Jesus has defeated sin, death and the devil and is Lord, Acts 2:36.

And is the savior of those who receive him, John 1:12.


So the answer is yes, Jesus is sufficient for the salvation of all, but is the actual savior of some certain persons.

Robert wants to say "yes", but is trying to determine how to get around saying so plainly.

Hopefully Robert will actually understand what this means.

AMR

fishrovmen
March 12th, 2016, 07:43 PM
Salvation has been provided for every one that has ever lived.

It is God's great free gift, Romans 5:18.

But it is not yours if you don't receive it, John 1:12.

So I will now ask a THIRD time. Do YOU, Robert Pate, believe that Jesus is the Savior of every person who ever lived? Can you handle a yes or no question?

Robert Pate
March 15th, 2016, 01:01 PM
So I will now ask a THIRD time. Do YOU, Robert Pate, believe that Jesus is the Savior of every person who ever lived? Can you handle a yes or no question?

Of course. Salvation has been provided for everyone, Hebrews 2:9.

All you have to do is receive it.