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way 2 go
February 28th, 2016, 09:15 PM
Simple Definition of karma

: the force created by a person's actions that is believed in Hinduism and Buddhism to determine what that person's next life will be like

: the force created by a person's actions that some people believe causes good or bad things to happen to that person

karma
kill a person -1 fornicate and have a child +1 = even


Christianity

Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,


Christians receive heaven which is gift we can not earn
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

patrick jane
February 28th, 2016, 09:23 PM
2 Corinthians 5:10 KJV -

way 2 go
March 1st, 2016, 07:32 PM
2 Corinthians 5:10 KJV -

2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

karma
kill a person -1 fornicate and have a child +1 = even.
No terror of the Lord with karma

freelight
March 4th, 2016, 01:47 AM
Simple Definition of karma

: the force created by a person's actions that is believed in Hinduism and Buddhism to determine what that person's next life will be like

: the force created by a person's actions that some people believe causes good or bad things to happen to that person

Hello way 2 go and all following......

Karma is deep and all-encompassing subject, since all life is a series of actions and corresponding re-actions, cause/effect, sequence/consequence, interdependent movements. Since we've already been over the subject of karma earlier, I'll direct readers to some past dialogue on the subject before we move on (follow all blue highlighted links).

~*~*~

Understanding 'terms' (call it 'karma' or 'the Law of Compensation') (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?89660-Is-the-doctrine-of-Eternal-Conscious-Torment-biblical-or-not&p=3677956&viewfull=1#post3677956)

Love is infinite (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?89660-Is-the-doctrine-of-Eternal-Conscious-Torment-biblical-or-not&p=3674217&viewfull=1#post3674217)

What is sown is reaped (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?89660-Is-the-doctrine-of-Eternal-Conscious-Torment-biblical-or-not&p=3492958&viewfull=1#post3492958)

Law of Compensation (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?89660-Is-the-doctrine-of-Eternal-Conscious-Torment-biblical-or-not&p=3489387&viewfull=1#post3489387)

What you measure out, will be measured back (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?89660-Is-the-doctrine-of-Eternal-Conscious-Torment-biblical-or-not&p=3678223&viewfull=1#post3678223)

Deformities, misfortunes, illnesses, suffering. (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?89660-Is-the-doctrine-of-Eternal-Conscious-Torment-biblical-or-not&p=3678725&viewfull=1#post3678725)

More on karma (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?89660-Is-the-doctrine-of-Eternal-Conscious-Torment-biblical-or-not&p=4638418&viewfull=1#post4638418)

First response to Way 2 go's announcement of starting this thread (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?89660-Is-the-doctrine-of-Eternal-Conscious-Torment-biblical-or-not&p=4637827&viewfull=1#post4637827) :)


karma
kill a person -1 fornicate and have a child +1 = even

I still have yet to understand this logic of relation or equation above. :idunno: But don't forget,...Paul understood that 'God' (the source and power of law, or even law itself ) cannot be mocked, since sowing and reaping continue (seedtime and harvest, cause/effect)....as long as there is a living soul that thinks, speaks and acts....since all actions carry their relational effects and consequences. Hence, no matter how you slice or dice it, or throw in your 'theological construct or definitions'.....the law is universal. A trumped up or presuppositional theological dogma or 'belief' cannot abrograte or nullify what is law, and neither does a doctrine of 'vicarious blood atonement', since it wholly does away with personal responsibility to atone for one's own sins (by repentance, reformation), and even still, all the blood of a thousand animals or men, cannot take wash away sin. This is just a fact. (the issue of one's faith that blood can be efficacious, is another extended issue, covered elsewhere). - in all cases of rectification however, repentance is essential as the full act of returning to God or divine law....the return to right doing. There is no substitute for this....as faith without works is dead.



Christianity

Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,


Christians receive heaven which is gift we can not earn
[B]Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Well, lets not discount that some early Christian groups did believe in some form of 'reincarnation' (sometimes confused with the term 'resurrection' which could indicate the same event, one arising in a new physical body, and we could still quibble over 'terms' and 'meanings'). As far as immortality being a 'gift', sure... this is a teaching found in some passages, and it certainly supports the 'conditional immortality' view, since some souls who utterly/wholly reject the gift of life, actually DIE, (disintegration, destruction, annihilation) while those receiving the gift take on the very nature of God, which is immortality itself, since only 'God' has immortality ('immortality' here referring specifically to the divine nature). This blows the ECT (http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?1581-ECT) doctrine out, which I've contested elsewhere on 'principle' alone for starters.

I'd encourage any interested to nibble on whats been shared already as a pretext, if possible, and perhaps challenge their own belief or understanding of 'justice', since karma by its own lawful action is perfectly just....so that ultimately there is perfect justice in the universe. How could there be justice any other way, since the law operates in perfect accordance to its own inward dynamic and compensating action? Of course, since God is LOVE, there is always grace present, so that karma is still governed in the light of that divine providence whose will is only for the utmost good, welfare, evolution and progress of all sentient beings....and how could Love be otherwise? If God is absolutely and ultimately omnipotent...then there is no soul that God could not draw, influence, woo or sweep into his infinite embrace in both an individual and universal sphere, since God includes, encompasses and maintains all. While this insight might resonate with a universalist premise and eschatology, so be it,...since there are also passages that speak of the restoration of all (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_reconciliation). This opens up quest-ions on many levels. Let us consider all points.

freelight
March 4th, 2016, 02:15 AM
2Co 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

This is only if you believe in a god of terror, some being that has to be feared. However,...the law of action works on its own accord,....you do an action, and you reap a consequence. No exterior objective 'god' is needed here to somehow personally enforce or manipulate the mechanics involved,....the law is inherent in 'actions' themselves (unless you include an exchange of 'personal relationship' or 'interactions' modifying any effects). You can entertain a 'belief' (note its just a 'belief') that there is a 'God' manipulating or micro-managing everyone's life...but you cant see this 'God', only its effects ;) (like breath or the wind, we don't know where it comes from, but see its effects). - I know this challenges the concept of an anthropomorphic God existing somewhere.


karma

kill a person -1 fornicate and have a child +1 = even.

Again, you'll have to explain your logic above or what this even means. If you kill a person, you'll suffer consequences for doing such. If you fornicate and have a child,....you bear the consequences also :idunno:


No terror of the Lord with karma

Why does someone need the 'terror of the Lord'? Karma works of its own lawful accord and compensation. Even if you personalize Deity, or hold a concept of a "personal God",....you still reap what you sow, don't you? Arent souls judged and compensated according to their works? Passages in the Bible do claim this. - because its a fact or lawful principle, that thoughts, words, deeds produce corresponding results.

Sowing and reaping, as long as there is action of whatever kind,....results/effects correspond.

Zeke
March 4th, 2016, 04:36 AM
I would add that there is a false Karma used to manipulate behavior of people, a mental condition that the Bible and Other religious text have been used to cultivate fear and anger that otherwise wouldn't have that effect outside that hypnotized Psychosis.

Danoh
March 4th, 2016, 10:20 PM
History records that Adolph Hitler; one of the worst human beings ever to walk the earth, took his own life just before the supposed "karma in this life" kicked in.

The late Carlo Gambino, head of the Gambino Crime family Gotti's narcism later destroyed, murdered and had men murdered, including the man he had murdered in order to seize control of "the family."

Yet "Don Carlo," who committed his first murder at the age of 16, not only never knew the inside of a jail, but died in his sleep at a ripe old age....

Search it out and you find that this karma business is just man needing to believe that "what comes around, goes around."

It is nonsense. In order for any "universal law" to be universal, it has to be just that - universal.

But, as that fool, Karl Marx, once nevertheless rightly noted "religion (superstition) is the opiate (desired numbness) of (desired by) the masses."

meshak
March 4th, 2016, 10:40 PM
"what comes around, goes around."

I believe God made it that way. The Bible says "you reap what you sow."

patrick jane
March 4th, 2016, 10:48 PM
"what comes around, goes around."




Round and Round -
https://youtu.be/0u8teXR8VE4

patrick jane
March 4th, 2016, 10:51 PM
[QUOTE=Danoh;4641958eeding to believe that "what comes around, goes around."

[/QUOTE]


Round and Round - Ratt


https://youtu.be/0u8teXR8VE4

freelight
March 5th, 2016, 03:56 AM
History records that Adolph Hitler; one of the worst human beings ever to walk the earth, took his own life just before the supposed "karma in this life" kicked in.

It might help to understand karma first from Hindu and Buddhist perspectives, which cover in great detail various kinds of karma,...which include fruits of one's actions being reaped in any given life-time, and that kind which is carried over and reaped in future lifetimes, and the total accumulative karma of a given soul. In Hitler's case, perhaps part of his karma was committing suicide, but in any case the karma he accrued in his lifetime would continue to be added to his account and what has been sowed, will have to be reaped at some point in time, in future re-embodiments. Regardless of space or time,...the law of karma is perfect justice. This is the case, whether one holds to a 'theistic' world view or a 'non-theistic' world view (both schools exist within eastern religions). Your example and assumption above in no way discounts karma....since all actions will bear their consequences at some point in time.

Karma (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma)



The late Carlo Gambino, head of the Gambino Crime family Gotti's narcism later destroyed, murdered and had men murdered, including the man he had murdered in order to seize control of "the family."

Yet "Don Carlo," who committed his first murder at the age of 16, not only never knew the inside of a jail, but died in his sleep at a ripe old age....

See above.


Search it out and you find that this karma business is just man needing to believe that "what comes around, goes around."

Not really, since "what a man sows, that also shall he reap"; "what measure you mete out, shall be measured back to you"; all actions have consequences...this is a universal law, because of the fact of cause & effect operating on all levels of existence. The whole universe and creation is governed by karma.


It is nonsense. In order for any "universal law" to be universal, it has to be just that - universal.

Show that 'action' and its corresponding results or consequences is NOT universal.

See: A right understanding of Karma (http://blavatskytheosophy.com/a-right-understanding-of-karma/) (Theosophical perspective)


But, as that fool, Karl Marx, once nevertheless rightly noted "religion (superstition) is the opiate (desired numbness) of (desired by) the masses."

Since karma (action/consequence, cause/effect) is a universal law, it is NOT a 'religion' or 'superstition', so is NOT an 'opiate' of any kind. However,...what Marx was likely referring to, includes your own brand of 'religious belief', 'dogma' or 'theology', among other religious belief systems...which may serve as a 'medicine' or 'opiate' to the people but not necessarily give them the happiness or peace that political or economic situations could more appropriately afford. But this veers off into a study of what Karl Marx really meant by his quote, perhaps better understood in context in an article here (http://atheism.about.com/od/weeklyquotes/a/marx01.htm) ;)

csuguy
March 5th, 2016, 05:08 AM
First off, I would like to point out that in religions like Hinduism and Buddhism, wholesome karma does not negate unwholesome karma. Good does not cancel bad. Each are accumulated and dispersed independently. This may be regarded as absolute justice, as freelight argues. However, this view can be called into question due to the fact that there is no permanent self - the one who recieves the punishment/reward is not trulythe one who performed the original action.

Karma as a concept has some merit from the perspective of justice. However, in Christianity we understand that forgiveness and repentance are greater than justice. Justice is good, but should be tempered with compassion. Karma, as a kind of impersonal force, leaves no room for this.

While not ideal, the concept of karma doesn't really bug me - save when people attempt to merge it with Christianity. Far more concerning is how this concept is used in a religion like Buddhism when combined with other concepts like Samsara and Nirvana. Karma is identified as the cause of the cycle of death and rebirth (samsara), while the goal is to escape this endless cycle which is associated with suffering. To put an end to the endless cycle of 'suffering' - they cease to do good or bad. They must cease producing karma (aka, cease moral actions) and only do neutral acts. They give up on what is good and seek death.

csuguy
March 5th, 2016, 05:13 AM
Now, with regards to what is required of Christians, we are required to give our lives. We are required to persistently seek what is right and good. Then we are rewarded with eternal life.


Matthew 7:21-27 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ 24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and [o]acts on them, [p]may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the [q]floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not [r]act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain fell, and the [s]floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”


Romans 2:6-11 [God] will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress [e]for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

Selaphiel
March 5th, 2016, 06:22 AM
I think it is problematic to link the concept of karma with justice at all. Justice implies a judge, a subject that evaluates and judges. A better word would be a more impersonal term like consequence. Karma is not about being judged at all. The karmic religions, at least Buddhism, is about examining reality through contemplation and meditation, and observing what kind of consequences different types of actions and attitudes have. It is a purely pragmatic concept of good and bad. This is quite different from theistic religions. Christianity is about finding the true self (although whether this involves some substantial static entity is another question. I think the Cartesian concept of self is often too easily and uncritically absorbed into Christian anthropology). What matters is that that self is true when in right relation to God and neighbor. That leads to true personhood, true community, true peace and eternal life.

That it is not the same person that receieves this consequence is thus not very important. The stream of consciousness, a stream of cause and effect. What they were affects what they will become.


karma
kill a person -1 fornicate and have a child +1 = even

Well, that is an absolutely ridiculous description of the concept of karma. Having a child would negate murder in karmic religions, not even close.

meshak
March 5th, 2016, 06:51 AM
Karma concept came from God, not the other way around.

csuguy
March 5th, 2016, 02:37 PM
I think it is problematic to link the concept of karma with justice at all. Justice implies a judge, a subject that evaluates and judges. A better word would be a more impersonal term like consequence. Karma is not about being judged at all. The karmic religions, at least Buddhism, is about examining reality through contemplation and meditation, and observing what kind of consequences different types of actions and attitudes have. It is a purely pragmatic concept of good and bad. This is quite different from theistic religions....

I agree that karma is better thought of as a consequence than as justice. I disagree, however, that their conception of good and bad are purely pragmatic. Rather, as in Buddhism, what is important is not the results of the action, but the mindset and motivation with which an action is performed. Wholesome karma is generated when you do something with a desire to do good, unwholesome karma is generated from the desire to do bad. Neutral karma is generated when you act without any moral intentions. Whether you are saving a child's life or murdering an innocent - what you are actually doing isn't important as far as karma is concerned. If you can murder someone passively - without thought or feeling on the matter - then you don't generate unwholesome karma. Likewise, if you save someone's life passively you don't generate wholesome karma. By seeking such a high degree of dettachment to the world and to everyone in it - they seek this state where they can do whatever they want and have no consequences, no karma.

john w
March 5th, 2016, 02:50 PM
This is the only karma tune I dig:




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5mwp264g-Q

Selaphiel
March 5th, 2016, 02:56 PM
That sounds like an interpretation of Buddhism that you find in certain forms of Zen associated with warrior classes. I'm not sure that is accepted by the more traditional schools of Mahayana and Theravada Buddhism. I would think they would deny that an enlightened person would ever kill anyone.

But that is a bit besides the point. Aren't the motivations for these particulars states of mind in themselves pragamtic in that they are good because they serve the purpose of enlightenment? That is, they are not motivated some transcendent conception of good (or evil, even evil as privation). In other words, their conception of good is not autotelic, it serves a practical purpose rather than being a reason in itself.

csuguy
March 5th, 2016, 04:35 PM
That sounds like an interpretation of Buddhism that you find in certain forms of Zen associated with warrior classes. I'm not sure that is accepted by the more traditional schools of Mahayana and Theravada Buddhism. I would think they would deny that an enlightened person would ever kill anyone.

No - this is a generally accepted view. I took several courses on Buddhism in its various forms, as well as more general classes on Asian Religions - and they were taught by Buddhists. Here an online Buddhist resource on the topic:


The Pali term Karma literally means action or doing. Any kind of intentional action whether mental, verbal, or physical, is regarded as Karma. It covers all that is included in the phrase "thought, word and deed". Generally speaking, all good and bad action constitutes Karma. In its ultimate sense Karma means all moral and immoral volition. Involuntary, unintentional or unconscious actions, though technically deeds, do not constitute Karma, because volition, the most important factor in determining Karma, is absent...

Ignorance (avijja), or not knowing things as they truly are, is the chief cause of Karma. Dependent on ignorance arise activities (avijja paccaya samkhara) states the Buddha in the Paticca Samuppada (Dependent Origination). Associated with ignorance is the ally craving (tanha), the other root of Karma. Evil actions are conditioned by these two causes. All good deeds of a worldling (putthujana), though associated with the three wholesome roots of generosity (alobha), goodwill (adosa) and knowledge (amoha), are nevertheless regarded as Karma because the two roots of ignorance and craving are dormant in him.
(http://buddhanet.net/e-learning/karma.htm)


Thus karma is largely a matter of one's understanding and motive, as opposed to simply the physical action being performed.


But that is a bit besides the point. Aren't the motivations for these particulars states of mind in themselves pragamtic in that they are good because they serve the purpose of enlightenment? That is, they are not motivated some transcendent conception of good (or evil, even evil as privation). In other words, their conception of good is not autotelic, it serves a practical purpose rather than being a reason in itself.

There is, of course, a point to attempting to detach oneself from the world, to learn to see things as they 'truly' are, and to crease producing karma. The point is to escape from suffering, to escape the cycle of death and rebirth, to be put out (Nirvana). This was what the Buddha was focused on solving - finding a way to end suffering.

kmoney
March 5th, 2016, 06:00 PM
By seeking such a high degree of dettachment to the world and to everyone in it - they seek this state where they can do whatever they want and have no consequences, no karma.


There is, of course, a point to attempting to detach oneself from the world, to learn to see things as they 'truly' are, and to crease producing karma. The point is to escape from suffering, to escape the cycle of death and rebirth, to be put out (Nirvana). This was what the Buddha was focused on solving - finding a way to end suffering.

Should the first quote be connected to the second quote? So, they aren't seeking to detachment in order to escape consequences but they are seeking detachment because attachment brings suffering and the lack of karma is more of an indirect result?

Danoh
March 5th, 2016, 06:18 PM
This is the only karma tune I dig:




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E5mwp264g-Q

Hah; I'll say one thing for Boy George; the man has good taste.

I was in a club once with my girlfriend; who was a big fan of his.

We're out in a hallway making out when in walks the Boy and his band Culture Club.

The Boy puckers his lips and throws a kiss at me, lol

My stupid girlfriend; she thought that was so cool.

Great lyrics and music though.

At some other time; we run into Sharon Stone while we're driving down Wilshire Blvd. She pulls up in in this baby blue Bentley convertible...gives me that famous look of hers...

THEN the girlfriend gets mad - lol, but it was ok for the Boy to throw a kiss.

Got rid of her just a while after that.

A little bit of Karma Chameleon, lol

patrick jane
March 5th, 2016, 06:48 PM
I was in a club once with my girlfriend; who was a big fan of his.

We're out in a hallway making out when in walks the Boy and his band Culture Club.

The Boy puckers his lips and throws a kiss at me, lol


My stupid girlfriend; she thought that was so cool.

Great lyrics and music though.

At some other time; we run into Sharon Stone while we're driving down Wilshire Blvd. She pulls up in in this baby blue Bentley convertible...gives me that famous look of hers...

THEN the girlfriend gets mad - lol, but it was ok for the Boy to throw a kiss.



And while you were driving to Wally World, Christie Brinkley pulled along side you in a red convertible and waved and blew a kiss too, right ?

Danoh
March 5th, 2016, 06:54 PM
And while you were driving to Wally World, Christie Brinkley pulled along side you in a red convertible and waved and blew a kiss too, right ?

It was an anecdote - hah, I could care less who believes it; especially you.

meshak
March 5th, 2016, 08:46 PM
Danoh, you seem to live in affluent place where many celebrities live.

csuguy
March 6th, 2016, 03:51 AM
Should the first quote be connected to the second quote? So, they aren't seeking to detachment in order to escape consequences but they are seeking detachment because attachment brings suffering and the lack of karma is more of an indirect result?

The Buddha was concerned with suffering. His spiritual journey is said to have been started with the Four Sights: a sick man, an old man, a dead man, and an ascetic. After living a very sheltered life as a prince, these encounters with suffering are said to have shook him to such a degree that he gave up his comfortable, rich life, left his wife and family, and followed the path of an ascetic - inspired by their apparent peace and tranquility in the face of suffering. He hoped to find in their teachings and practices an escape.

It wasn't so simple, however. He learned great meditation techniques and is said to have taken asceticism to such an extreme that he could survive on a single grain of rice per day. By doing so he found a taste of what he was seeking - in meditation he is said to have reached a place of peace and tranquility beyond suffering. However, this was only a temporary state; gone as soon as one left meditation. Something different was needed, though he didn't know what - so he left the ascetic life and began to live more moderately.

From there he pursued enlightenment, he sought the knowledge of how to permanently escape from suffering. Accordingly to legend he sat underneath a tree and mediated until he was enlightened. He was confronted by demons and gods in the process. Whatever happened, the results are the Four Noble Truths:

1. The truth of suffering (dukkha) - life is suffering
2. The truth of the cause of suffering (samudaya) - our desires and ignorance
3. The truth of the end of suffering (nirhodha) - detachment via enlightenment
4. The truth of the path that frees us from suffering (magga) - the Eight-Fold Path

There are many different aspects that can be evaluated here. The relationship between how desires lead to suffering, how enlightenment can help us to detatch ourselves from the objects of our desires and avoid suffering, and how this all relates to karma and the cycle of samsara. And then of course there is Nirvana. While there is plenty of variation in interpretation of these things; the Four Noble Truths and the Eight-Fold Path are fundamental to Buddhism and practically universal. Of course, there are a few interesting derivatives that are pretty unique within Buddhism - like Tibetan Buddhism.

Here are a couple texts I used in my classes on Buddhism, if you are interested:

1. Buddhism: Introducing the Buddhist Experience (2nd Edition) by Donald W. Mitchell

2. What the Buddha Taught (Revised and Extended Edition with Texts from Suttas and Dhammapada) by Walpola Rahula

3. Siddhārtha by Hermann Hesse

The last one is actually a really well written fictional novel based loosely upon Siddhartha's (the Buddha's) life. Extremely well written and highly recommended.

kmoney
March 6th, 2016, 08:53 AM
The Buddha was concerned with suffering. His spiritual journey is said to have been started with the Four Sights: a sick man, an old man, a dead man, and an ascetic. After living a very sheltered life as a prince, these encounters with suffering are said to have shook him to such a degree that he gave up his comfortable, rich life, left his wife and family, and followed the path of an ascetic - inspired by their apparent peace and tranquility in the face of suffering. He hoped to find in their teachings and practices an escape.

It wasn't so simple, however. He learned great meditation techniques and is said to have taken asceticism to such an extreme that he could survive on a single grain of rice per day. By doing so he found a taste of what he was seeking - in meditation he is said to have reached a place of peace and tranquility beyond suffering. However, this was only a temporary state; gone as soon as one left meditation. Something different was needed, though he didn't know what - so he left the ascetic life and began to live more moderately.

From there he pursued enlightenment, he sought the knowledge of how to permanently escape from suffering. Accordingly to legend he sat underneath a tree and mediated until he was enlightened. He was confronted by demons and gods in the process. Whatever happened, the results are the Four Noble Truths:

1. The truth of suffering (dukkha) - life is suffering
2. The truth of the cause of suffering (samudaya) - our desires and ignorance
3. The truth of the end of suffering (nirhodha) - detachment via enlightenment
4. The truth of the path that frees us from suffering (magga) - the Eight-Fold Path

There are many different aspects that can be evaluated here. The relationship between how desires lead to suffering, how enlightenment can help us to detatch ourselves from the objects of our desires and avoid suffering, and how this all relates to karma and the cycle of samsara. And then of course there is Nirvana. While there is plenty of variation in interpretation of these things; the Four Noble Truths and the Eight-Fold Path are fundamental to Buddhism and practically universal. Of course, there are a few interesting derivatives that are pretty unique within Buddhism - like Tibetan Buddhism.

Here are a couple texts I used in my classes on Buddhism, if you are interested:

1. Buddhism: Introducing the Buddhist Experience (2nd Edition) by Donald W. Mitchell

2. What the Buddha Taught (Revised and Extended Edition with Texts from Suttas and Dhammapada) by Walpola Rahula

3. Siddhārtha by Hermann Hesse

The last one is actually a really well written fictional novel based loosely upon Siddhartha's (the Buddha's) life. Extremely well written and highly recommended.

That's interesting info but I'm not sure I see a clear answer to my question. I asked it because what you said about people seeking to avoid consequences/karma sounds like something that would stem from impure motives, which according to what you say would then generate negative negative karma. But if the lack of karma is an indirect or coincidental to the path toward detachment then it's more understandable.

csuguy
March 6th, 2016, 01:59 PM
That's interesting info but I'm not sure I see a clear answer to my question. I asked it because what you said about people seeking to avoid consequences/karma sounds like something that would stem from impure motives, which according to what you say would then generate negative negative karma. But if the lack of karma is an indirect or coincidental to the path toward detachment then it's more understandable.

They are directly related; karma is what keeps one in the cycle of samsara, the cycle of death and rebirth.

life is suffering (1st noble truth) - or more specifically, one cannot avoid suffering in life. Birth is suffering, being sick is suffering, growing old is suffering, dying is suffering, etc.

As part of life, desires lead to suffering (2nd noble truth). For even something/someone who brings you joy must ultimately leave you - and this separation causes you suffering. Wanting something/someone you can't have causes you suffering. Clinging to life causes you suffering. At the same time, desire attaches one to samsara. Our desires motivate our actions, which results in karma - which further perpetuates life and the sufferings associated with it. It is also worth noting that when one dies, one's final thoughts/desires/emotions are a strong determining factor in rebirth - in the kind of life you will live next. Will you be a ghost, a human, a god? Will you be born into wealth and excess, or into poverty and slavery?

However, through enlightenment, by understanding that there is no permanent self, no soul, that everything and everyone is in a constant state of flux (like a river) so that nothing is what it was before, and what is now will not be - through this understanding into the nature of things, one can detach themselves from ignorant desire that causes suffering (3rd noble truth). Thus even when is physically ailed by sickness, injury, death, etc. One does not suffer - because they have detached from the 'deception' of self. When their 'loved' ones die, they do not suffer because they do not regard them as real.

Furthermore, by ceasing to desire, one no longer produces either wholesome or unwholesome karma - only neutral karma. The ultimate result of this is that one is able to free themselves from samsara, the cycle of death and rebirth. One's existing karma does not simply disappear, however - the Buddha himself continued to experience injury, sickness, and death after his enlightenment. However, if I'm not mistaken, through meditation they believe they are able to process through their existing karma.

So you see, there is a direct connection between karma, nirvana, and desires. Karma leads to continued life, death, and rebirth - which perpetuates suffering. Even wholesome karma ultimately leads to suffering. After all, even a god, who may live a pleasurable life for hundreds of thousands of years, will still ultimately die and be reborn in Buddhism. Karma results from desire - whether good or bad. These desires are in turn rooted in ignorance. Through enlightenment one can understand these things are illusory - even one's self. Through this enlightenment and through meditation on these things, one can reach a state where they are detached from such desires - and this state where one has 'put out' their desires is called Nirvana.

Understanding this you can see why my two statements were not contradictory: they are attempting to escape from the consequences of karma: the cycle of death and rebirth, a cycle of suffering. This is accomplished through enlightenment to reach Nirvana: putting out one's desires that generate karama, which are rooted upon false perceptions.

way 2 go
March 6th, 2016, 04:08 PM
Hello way 2 go and all following......

Karma is deep and all-encompassing subject, since all life is a series of actions and corresponding re-actions, cause/effect, sequence/consequence, interdependent movements.




I still have yet to understand this logic of relation or equation above. :idunno:
what is wrong with the statement

karma
kill a person -1 fornicate and have a child +1 = even



But don't forget,...Paul understood that 'God' (the source and power of law, or even law itself ) cannot be mocked,
and yet you mock him (see below)


since sowing and reaping continue (seedtime and harvest, cause/effect)....as long as there is a living soul that thinks, speaks and acts....since all actions carry their relational effects and consequences. Hence, no matter how you slice or dice it, or throw in your 'theological construct or definitions'.....the law is universal.A trumped up or presuppositional theological dogma or 'belief' cannot abrograte or nullify what is law,

what law , your made up law of karma ?

The law as in biblical law is written .

karma is a lie so calling evil good and good evil it is up to the believer.

Isa_5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!




and neither does a doctrine of 'vicarious blood atonement', since it wholly does away with personal responsibility to atone for one's own sins (by repentance, reformation), and even still, all the blood of a thousand animals or men, cannot take wash away sin. This is just a fact. (the issue of one's faith that blood can be efficacious, is another extended issue, covered elsewhere). - in all cases of rectification however, repentance is essential as the full act of returning to God or divine law....the return to right doing. There is no substitute for this....as faith without works is dead.

this is where you mocked God by the way

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

faith, faith in what, karma has nothing to have faith in except ... karma.



since only 'God' has immortality ('immortality' here referring specifically to the divine nature). This blows the ECT doctrine out, which I've contested elsewhere on 'principle' alone for starters.
too many errors in what you wrote so I will only write about this

God has immortality as in God has always existed
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
we on the other hand have been created to exist forever
just like the angels .



I'd encourage any interested to nibble on whats been shared already as a pretext, if possible, and perhaps challenge their own belief or understanding of 'justice', since karma by its own lawful action is perfectly just

God is just.

karma is made up so anything can be called good.



....so that ultimately there is perfect justice in the universe.

universe is dirt and energy inanimate.


How could there be justice any other way, since the law operates in perfect accordance to its own inward dynamic and compensating action?
God has said saints will judge

1Co 6:2 Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases?
1Co 6:3 Do you not know that we are to judge angels? How much more, then, matters pertaining to this life!

God will be the final judge not unpredictable karma




Of course, since God is LOVE, there is always grace present,
In this love you always talk about is there judgement , vengeance , punishment?

Heb_10:30 For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people."

so that karma is still governed in the light of that divine providence whose will is only for the utmost good, welfare, evolution and progress of all sentient beings....and how could Love be otherwise?

Rom_5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

but karma does not need Christ death


If God is absolutely and ultimately omnipotent...then there is no soul that God could not draw, influence, woo or sweep into his infinite embrace in both an individual and universal sphere, since God includes, encompasses and maintains all.
God's omnipotence does not remove your freewill

Joh_3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

freelight
March 6th, 2016, 04:33 PM
Now, with regards to what is required of Christians, we are required to give our lives. We are required to persistently seek what is right and good. Then we are rewarded with eternal life.


Matthew 7:21-27 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many [n]miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’ 24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and [o]acts on them, [p]may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the [q]floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not [r]act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain fell, and the [s]floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”


Romans 2:6-11 [God] will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress [e]for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

Yet even this paradigm includes the karmic law of good works being rewarded or compensated. Which is why I shared my earlier posts with links to show that the law of karma is universal, no matter how its variously defined or appropriated, since all actions are relative to certain factors of cause and effect (reward/punishment). The law of karma carries into all dimensions of existence, all creation...wherever actions commence, or have 'effects'. Hindu/Buddhist/Jainist schools go into deeper complex explanations of various kinds of karma, as you've touched on previously.

I find Way 2 go's thread title as misconceived, since 'karma' is not in contest with anything,.....its a principle found in the Bible as well, and is not inimical to Christianity in principle, while the eastern understanding of karma has different implications and has a different world-view than Christianity, of course. Still, early Christianity had some groups that held to some kind of rebirth, no doubt from eastern influences and esoteric schools, so philosophically 'karma' and 'rebirth' (reincarnation) are reasonable, except when coming into conflict with a more dogmatic orthodox brand of Christian theology crystallized later, whose eschatology and soteriology could not accept it.

I've recently been centering more with a Theosophical view of karma, since it brings the eastern definitions and blends these with the ancient wisdom taught in all schools, and presents esoteric philosophy in a way perhaps a bit more understandable to western minds. The 'law of compensation' I've shared from the Padgett messages may be of a more 'christainized' version and more palatable for some. Still, 'God' (law) is not mocked,...what is sown shall be reaped....since karma is intrinsic to existence.

csuguy
March 6th, 2016, 05:06 PM
While there is some overlap between the idea of karma and Christianity, this is merely a superficial likeness. Karma is an impersonal force/law that always reciprocates one's wholesome/unwholesome actions to the same degree. You have said earlier in this thread that this can be considered a perfect justice system of sorts.

This does not work well with Christianity, however. While Justice is certainly good and important, it is not ideal. The Law makes one aware of sin so as to utterly condemn it, but the Law makes no one righteous. Under Justice, it is an eye for an eye - but if we carry this out mechanically, everyone will end up blind.

Christianity is rooted in love, not justice. Justice is carried out with respects to love: love for those who have been harmed, love for those who are threatened with harm, but also love for one's enemy, love for the sinner. It is far more preferable that one repent of their sins and for them to be forgiven, in God's eyes, than for them to receive their just rewards. Of course, when one refuses to turn from sin but continues in their sinful ways - nothing is left for them but justice.

Justice is not the ultimate good, love is. We should prioritize reconciliation with one another and with God over making sure someone gets what they deserve.

freelight
March 6th, 2016, 05:14 PM
what is wrong with the statement

karma
kill a person -1 fornicate and have a child +1 = even

It makes no sense at all.



and yet you mock him (see below)

I do not mock Paul or 'God' (universal law).


what law , your made up law of karma ?

"What a man sows, that also shall he reap". You've been given ample resource materials to learn what karma is.


The law as in biblical law is written .

No, I'm not referring to Mosaic law. I'm speaking of law as in an 'ordering principle' that exists and operates in Nature, that governs all actions.

See: Karma: The Law of Order and Opportunity (https://www.theosophical.org/online-resources/leaflets/1799)



karma is a lie so calling evil good and good evil it is up to the believer.

Isa_5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!

Again, more ignorance of what karma is. Show me where I have called evil good and good evil. This is absurd.



this is where you mocked God by the way

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Not mocking 'God' (reality, truth, Law). I've challenged the blood-atonement doctrine elsewhere and it violates the law of self-responsibility and usurps the law of karma, since remember....every soul is responsible for its own sins and to atone for its own sins thru repentance, reformation, restitution, etc. While 'blood atonement' has certain symbolic or metaphorical meaning or value,....no amount of animal or human blood can wash away sins - such is only 'figurative' language applied subjectively. Such a doctrine is no substitute for right doing....without true repentance a blood sacrifice is valueless, and then its value is still only assumed by 'faith'.


faith, faith in what, karma has nothing to have faith in except ... karma.

Since karma is universal, so is its respect. What you sow, you will reap,....you cant evade that.


God is just.

karma is made up so anything can be called good.

The law of 'action'(karma) is just a fact of conditional existence.....its not made up. The law is just in that each are compensated and receive the consequences for their actions. Nothing is more just!


universe is dirt and energy inanimate.

Yet its all governed, guided, directed by intelligent law.


God will be the final judge not unpredictable karma

If you want to include a personal God serving as a Judge, that is fine,...but each are still reaping what they sow....as long as they sow....as thoughts, words and actions have their corresponding effects (law still governs, moderates and adjusts).


In this love you always talk about is there judgement , vengeance , punishment?

Heb_10:30 For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people."

Note, that the law already takes care of all souls, since they are ever being rewarded or punished for their own actions. God who is love is ever gracious by nature. Judgment, vengeance, punishment are already built into the law of karma....if you want to use those 'terms',.....remember....souls will be "judged according to their works" (judged according to karma).


Rom_5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

but karma does not need Christ death

No matter who dies for who, you still must reap what you sow, and are judged according to your work (karma), do you follow?


God's omnipotence does not remove your freewill

Agreed,...I was just sharing a Universalist view where some assume that ultimately a soul's will surrenders to the divine will, since there is some support for Unviersalism in the Bible. It was just something to consider, the INFINITY of LOVE.

Zeke
March 6th, 2016, 06:56 PM
If the lower levels of Karma seem impersonal its no different than the OT laws demands on the flesh when seen from that state of mind, its true purpose is only seen once the Divine reason is grasp for the time spent under it, Galatians 4:1-3, Luke 15:45. When that doesn't fully happened in the heart the mind stays in control of the Identity which plays its mortal games of one path being the supreme way, yet when one reaches the top the other paths are shown to have also reached it.

To say love is only found in the christian religion is really nearsighted, based on a broad brush stroke that's has tried to paint over some of the eastern thoughts the Bible was built upon.

way 2 go
March 6th, 2016, 08:43 PM
It makes no sense at all.
karma
kill a person -1 fornicate and have a child +1 = even




I do not mock Paul or 'God' (universal law).
Jesus is God
not some made up law of karma

and yes you mock him



"What a man sows, that also shall he reap". You've been given ample resource materials to learn what karma is.
you get life with Christ or punishment .

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

trust in karma will get you eternal punishment


No, I'm not referring to Mosaic law. I'm speaking of law as in an 'ordering principle' that exists and operates in Nature, that governs all actions.

karma which is made up so anything goes





Again, more ignorance of what karma is. Show me where I have called evil good and good evil. This is absurd.


Not mocking 'God' (reality, truth, Law). I've challenged the blood-atonement doctrine elsewhere and it violates the law of self-responsibility and usurps the law of karma, since remember....every soul is responsible for its own sins and to atone for its own sins thru repentance, reformation, restitution, etc. While 'blood atonement' has certain symbolic or metaphorical meaning or value,....no amount of animal or human blood can wash away sins - such is only 'figurative' language applied subjectively. Such a doctrine is no substitute for right doing....without true repentance a blood sacrifice is valueless, and then its value is still only assumed by 'faith'.

you using a fantasy called karma saying having good karma will save you
and that the atonement of Christ who is God profits us nothing
that is an example of evil good and good evil

Isa_5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!


repentance does not atone for sin that must be your lies of karma speaking
since you leave out Christ who said his blood was for remission of sins.
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.



Since karma is universal, so is its respect. What you sow, you will reap,....you cant evade that.

in this life people evade it all the time.

But God will Judge everyone
Heb_10:30 For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay."

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment...


The law of 'action'(karma) is just a fact of conditional existence.....its not made up. The law is just in that each are compensated and receive the consequences for their actions. Nothing is more just!

you assume conditional existence bible says otherwise
and karma is made up, law of sin very real.
bible also says eternal dwelling with God or apart from God

no middle ground



If you want to include a personal God serving as a Judge, that is fine,...but each are still reaping what they sow....as long as they sow....as thoughts, words and actions have their corresponding effects (law still governs, moderates and adjusts).
How nice of you to let the creator of everything play in your karma sandbox.

Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."



Note, that the law already takes care of all souls, since they are ever being rewarded or punished for their own actions.
lies


God who is love is ever gracious by nature
your god of karma is loving people into hell



. Judgment, vengeance, punishment are already built into the law of karma....if you want to use those 'terms',.....remember....souls will be "judged according to their works" (judged according to karma).

made up karma has judgement,vengeance, punishment according to what standard?

Jesus is going to judge, not karma,
by his standard of righteousness .


No matter who dies for who, you still must reap what you sow, and are judged according to your work (karma), do you follow?
why thank you for trying to make Jesus sacrifice meaningless .

csuguy
March 6th, 2016, 11:45 PM
If the lower levels of Karma seem impersonal its no different than the OT laws demands on the flesh when seen from that state of mind, its true purpose is only seen once the Divine reason is grasp for the time spent under it, Galatians 4:1-3, Luke 15:45. When that doesn't fully happened in the heart the mind stays in control of the Identity which plays its mortal games of one path being the supreme way, yet when one reaches the top the other paths are shown to have also reached it.

The Law is only part of the OT and of Christianity. But even the Law, properly understood, is not impersonal - for it too is rooted in love. However, even if one were to concede that the Law, in of itself, were impersonal, the Law is not God Almighty - who is very personal, who wants to be our God and who wants us to be his people, who wants to save us and to teach us to do right, who sacrificed his Son that we might be saved. Karma at no level can compare to this.


To say love is only found in the christian religion is really nearsighted, based on a broad brush stroke that's has tried to paint over some of the eastern thoughts the Bible was built upon.

I never asserted that love was isolated to Christianity - merely that love is the core thereof. Scripture even goes so far as to assert that God is love.

However, I will assert that Buddhism does, in fact, lack love. They speak of 'loving kindness' and the like to be sure - but a truly practicing Buddhist cannot love. Love requires attachment - it requires carrying about the well-being of others, and even suffering for their sake. The greatest act of love is to die for another. This is entirely contradictory to Buddhism.

freelight
March 7th, 2016, 12:34 AM
I never asserted that love was isolated to Christianity - merely that love is the core thereof. Scripture even goes so far as to assert that God is love.

However, I will assert that Buddhism does, in fact, lack love. They speak of 'loving kindness' and the like to be sure - but a truly practicing Buddhist cannot love. Love requires attachment - it requires carrying about the well-being of others, and even suffering for their sake. The greatest act of love is to die for another. This is entirely contradictory to Buddhism.

I disagree, for The 4 Sublime States (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel006.html) taught by Buddha are -

Love or Loving-kindness (metta)
Compassion (karuna)
Sympathetic Joy (mudita)
Equanimity (upekkha)

While the concept of 'love' within Buddhism has different nuance, inflections and contextual over-lays,...I think the Buddha taught in some ways very similar to Jesus philosophically, as can be seen in certain sections of the gospels....and their teachings have been compared, whole books written about them. ALSO,...the path of the Bodhisattva (http://www.lionsroar.com/the-bodhisattva/) and their 'vow' to serve towards the liberation and enlightenment of all sentient beings, is certainly a gesture of 'love'(selflessness) and 'compassion', don't you think? One of my favorite Bodhisattvas is Ksitigarbha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kshitigarbha).

23608

freelight
March 7th, 2016, 01:02 AM
While there is some overlap between the idea of karma and Christianity, this is merely a superficial likeness. Karma is an impersonal force/law that always reciprocates one's wholesome/unwholesome actions to the same degree. You have said earlier in this thread that this can be considered a perfect justice system of sorts.

This does not work well with Christianity, however. While Justice is certainly good and important, it is not ideal. The Law makes one aware of sin so as to utterly condemn it, but the Law makes no one righteous. Under Justice, it is an eye for an eye - but if we carry this out mechanically, everyone will end up blind.

Christianity is rooted in love, not justice. Justice is carried out with respects to love: love for those who have been harmed, love for those who are threatened with harm, but also love for one's enemy, love for the sinner. It is far more preferable that one repent of their sins and for them to be forgiven, in God's eyes, than for them to receive their just rewards. Of course, when one refuses to turn from sin but continues in their sinful ways - nothing is left for them but justice.

Justice is not the ultimate good, love is. We should prioritize reconciliation with one another and with God over making sure someone gets what they deserve.

It still remains that karma has within it its just compensation and that just happens to be by universal law....its how the universe works. Actions have consequences,.....an intelligent principle or law undergirds and directs the orderly process of things, - action, sequence, consequence......sowing/reaping.....seedtime/harvest.

Even if 'God' is love and love is the Supreme LAW that controls/directs all other laws....then even karma of course is presided over by this over-arching love, for by the suffering of sin and the cognizance of its penalties,.....the sinner repents and corrects his path to the better way, lest his suffering continue. Karma must ever be as long as actions continue unless you can live above karma or abide in a higher more transcendental law that over-rides it (such as pure love, and compassionate action that seeks no reward or recompense).

While I agree with your sentiments, I think you're highlighting different nuances of emphasis between Christian and Buddhist philosophy or terminology, while I take a more liberal path of complimentarity or eclecticity. I disagree that 'karma' is some vindictive "getting what they deserve" law, for its just a matter of fact that what we sow we reap; actions have consequences. Karma is also the law of balance/equilibrium and opportunity....since we can learn, grow, progress thru our experience of life....as our actions and their results are the most intimate teacher.

csuguy
March 7th, 2016, 01:03 AM
I disagree, for The 4 Sublime States (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel006.html) taught by Buddha are -

Love or Loving-kindness (metta)
Compassion (karuna)
Sympathetic Joy (mudita)
Equanimity (upekkha)

While the concept of 'love' within Buddhism has different nuance, inflections and contextual over-lays,...I think the Buddha taught in some ways very similar to Jesus philosophically, as can be seen in certain sections of the gospels....and their teachings have been compared, whole books written about them. ALSO,...the path of the Bodhisattva (http://www.lionsroar.com/the-bodhisattva/) and their 'vow' to serve towards the liberation and enlightenment of all sentient beings, is certainly a gesture of 'love'(selflessness) and 'compassion', don't you think? One of my favorite Bodhisattvas is Ksitigarbha (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kshitigarbha).

23608

They may use the term 'love'/'loving kindness' - but these must be understood within the context of Buddhism and the Four Noble Truths. When they speak of love/loving-kindness, it is not, and cannot be the same kind of love that Christianity talks about. Love that involves truly caring about another, an altruistic love in which you are willing to sacrifice of yourself for their well-being - this love is entirely incompatible with Buddhism.

This is for a few reasons. The first obvious contradiction is the fact that love is an attachment, an attachment which - to some degree - will result in some suffering (though likely a suffering heavily out-weighed by joy). The Buddha explicitly teaches to rid yourselves of such attachments for the very purpose of avoiding the suffering associated with it.

The second reason is because love leads to doing good and, potentially, bad deeds for the sake of one's love one. This produces karma and keeps one in the cycle of samsara. Again - this contradicts the fundamental teachings of the Buddha, which is to put an end to such desires (Nirvana).

Thirdly, Christian love is love for others. You act for their sake. But Buddhism denies the self - and the other - as illusory. Who do you love? Buddhism says there is nobody to love, not even the self.

Fourth, Christianity is concerned with doing good deeds, where the reward is eternal life. Buddhism says that good deeds are rooted in ignorance, and instead seeks to rid the mind of the illusions that give rise to the concepts underlying good and evil. And they do this so that they can escape from the eternal cycle of death and rebirth. They seek to die once and for all, never to reborn into a state of suffering.

In truth, Buddhism is about as opposite from Christianity as you can get.

Mahayana Buddhists vow to put off their own enlightenment for the sake of helping others on their spiritual journeys. But they too must ultimately give up love, give up attachment to others, if they are to reach Nirvana.

csuguy
March 7th, 2016, 01:17 AM
It still remains that karma has within it its just compensation and that just happens to be by universal law....its how the universe works. Actions have consequences,.....an intelligent principle or law undergirds and directs the orderly process of things, - action, sequence, consequence......sowing/reaping.....seedtime/harvest.

Yes - there's nothing wrong with this concept per say, but it is clearly not compatible with Christianity. Karma is a mechanical law and has no room for mercy. It cannot compare with the personal God of Christianity, who not only acts on nature and on humanity, but interacts with us - forming a dialogue.


Even if 'God' is love and love is the Supreme LAW that controls/directs all other laws....then even karma of course is presided over by this over-arching love, for by the suffering of sin and the cognizance of its penalties,.....the sinner repents and corrects his path to the better way, lest his suffering continue. Karma must ever be as long as actions continue unless you can live above karma or abide in a higher more transcendental law that over-rides it (such as pure love, and compassionate action that seeks no reward or recompense).

Karma is not guided by love, not in Buddhism at any rate. Love, as spoken of by Christians, has no place in Buddhism - for Christian love is all about attachment to others, to their well-being, and of sacrificing of one's self - even suffering if need be - for their sake. An individual in Buddhism may recognize that his actions are bad and will bring him harm, and thus change his ways. This is good. But Karma takes no note of it. What has been done will be revisited upon that individual no matter how much they repent and beg for mercy. Karma cannot show mercy, it knows not love.


While I agree with your sentiments, I think you're highlighting different nuances of emphasis between Christian and Buddhist philosophy or terminology, while I take a more liberal path of complimentarity or eclecticity. I disagree that 'karma' is some vindictive "getting what they deserve" law, for its just a matter of fact that what we sow we reap; actions have consequences. Karma is also the law of balance/equilibrium and opportunity....since we can learn, grow, progress thru our experience of life....as our actions and their results are the most intimate teacher.

Recognizing where there is honest agreement between different religions, sects, and philosophies is a good thing. But this must be done honestly - and not artificially. We must honestly recognize the divides between these religions, sects, and philosophies as well.

I do not claim karma is vindictive. Rather I claim it is mechanical - like a Law, as you call it. It is neither vindictive or compassionate - it knows neither because it is an impersonal force that is incapable of bending one way or the other.

Selaphiel
March 7th, 2016, 02:46 AM
This discussion will not get very far unless you discuss what 'love' actually entails. It is concept where the English language is rather poor and limited, as love can refer to many different forms of relating to others. It is not a given that love requiers desire and attachment. As far as I understand it, metta is defined as 'love without attachment'. A love that is the universal in the sense that it wishes the well being of all things. Agape is not that dissimilar, it is wishing the well being of others, which does not necessarily mean attachment to them. And of course, the simple distinction between eros and agape in much of Christian theology is not very satisfactory. The reality is far more complex. The difference might be that that some form of eros/desire is part of the Christian form of love (but eros must be freed from the false conception of it as mere possession of the other).

Point is that there are rather complicated concepts at the bottom of this discussion.

The biggest difference between the two religions is the end goal. An extinguishing of the person is incompatible with Christianity, it only seek to extinguish a false self, that is the self that is wrongly oriented away from God and neighbor. The other would be the impersonal karma versus the personal God that is love and who is merciful.

PureX
March 7th, 2016, 08:17 AM
I realize there are a number of ways of understanding karma, but for myself, I just view it is the reflection, back at me, of my own effect on the world around me.

csuguy
March 7th, 2016, 08:28 AM
This discussion will not get very far unless you discuss what 'love' actually entails. It is concept where the English language is rather poor and limited, as love can refer to many different forms of relating to others. It is not a given that love requiers desire and attachment. As far as I understand it, metta is defined as 'love without attachment'. A love that is the universal in the sense that it wishes the well being of all things. Agape is not that dissimilar, it is wishing the well being of others, which does not necessarily mean attachment to them. And of course, the simple distinction between eros and agape in much of Christian theology is not very satisfactory. The reality is far more complex. The difference might be that that some form of eros/desire is part of the Christian form of love (but eros must be freed from the false conception of it as mere possession of the other).

Point is that there are rather complicated concepts at the bottom of this discussion.

It is a given that the kind of love talked about in Christianity requires desire and attachment - attachment to the individuals and a desire for their well-being, for their salvation, and for everyone to be reconciled together as children of God. Christian love requires very real sacrifice on the part of the individual for the sake of others - with the greatest act of love being to give one's life for the sake of another. Love is the basis for everything in Christianity - how we live our lives, our morals and values, and our very purpose.

Even God is love. And do we not witness in him great desire and attachment as a result? Has he not suffered on our account? And I do not refer only to Christ's sacrifice, though that more than establishes the point on its own - but we see throughout scripture a constant battle that God is fighting with us and for us - to save us and bring us back to what is right and good, with man constantly returning to his sins like a dog to his throwup. Was he not greatly saddened by the flood? Or angered by the Jews when they created the Golden Caph? Even to the point of threatening to destroy them all and restart with Moses? To say that the love of God does NOT entail attachment is clearly false.

To say that Christian love does not require attachment and desire is to ignore everything the Christianity is. You cannot love and feel nothing for your neighbor - you cannot be detached from their well-being and suffering. You cannot watch them in their time of need and suffering and not yourself desire to help them. Even one's enemies are to be loved - we are not to rejoice at their destruction, but feel great sorrow at their loss.

All of this is absolutely incompatible with Buddhism, which seeks to escape the suffering caused through such attachments. So much do they fear suffering that they would abandon all the good and joy that true love brings and exchange it for an escape.



The biggest difference between the two religions is the end goal. An extinguishing of the person is incompatible with Christianity, it only seek to extinguish a false self, that is the self that is wrongly oriented away from God and neighbor. The other would be the impersonal karma versus the personal God that is love and who is merciful.

The end goal, the means to get there, and the underlying concepts justifying them. In short - just about everything between the two is contradictory.

csuguy
March 7th, 2016, 08:36 AM
I realize there are a number of ways of understanding karma, but for myself, I just view it is the reflection, back at me, of my own effect on the world around me.

There are indeed many views of karma. For example, in Jainism karma is considered to be a 'cosmic dirt' that is attracted to the vibrations of the soul that are caused by the activities of the mind, body, and speech. It is more of a physical substance. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma)

When I speak of karma in this thread I'm referring specifically about Karma as understood generally by Buddhism. There is a lot of overlap between Buddhism and Hinduism, though I'm not studied enough on Hinduism to say whether or not they have identical conceptions of karma

Zeke
March 7th, 2016, 09:44 AM
The Law is only part of the OT and of Christianity. But even the Law, properly understood, is not impersonal - for it too is rooted in love. However, even if one were to concede that the Law, in of itself, were impersonal, the Law is not God Almighty - who is very personal, who wants to be our God and who wants us to be his people, who wants to save us and to teach us to do right, who sacrificed his Son that we might be saved. Karma at no level can compare to this.



I never asserted that love was isolated to Christianity - merely that love is the core thereof. Scripture even goes so far as to assert that God is love.

However, I will assert that Buddhism does, in fact, lack love. They speak of 'loving kindness' and the like to be sure - but a truly practicing Buddhist cannot love. Love requires attachment - it requires carrying about the well-being of others, and even suffering for their sake. The greatest act of love is to die for another. This is entirely contradictory to Buddhism.

To me it doesn't really matter what one wants to label themselves, the experience called karma is also just a word that is able to transcend across the spectrum of beliefs, using different marques/labels that can morph into what ever one needs it to mean to them while stuck in Identity, I would see the more excellent way being an ultimate state where these methods and religious paths or no longer a crutch for the mind to cuddle with dreaming I have found the exclusive/path answer withheld from other cultures through the Centuries until the historic Jesus arrived on the stage to pull the curtain back for the world to see God for the first time,
When it was in Man all along Luke 17:20-21, which is the esoteric mission presented in the scriptures to reconcile that dual nature Genesis 33:4, between the heart and mind going through Divine adolescents Galatians 4:23-28, not a outward history lesson to build megalithic doctrines on that divide everyone.

Selaphiel
March 7th, 2016, 10:53 AM
It is a given that the kind of love talked about in Christianity requires desire and attachment - attachment to the individuals and a desire for their well-being, for their salvation, and for everyone to be reconciled together as children of God. Christian love requires very real sacrifice on the part of the individual for the sake of others - with the greatest act of love being to give one's life for the sake of another. Love is the basis for everything in Christianity - how we live our lives, our morals and values, and our very purpose.

Even God is love. And do we not witness in him great desire and attachment as a result? Has he not suffered on our account? And I do not refer only to Christ's sacrifice, though that more than establishes the point on its own - but we see throughout scripture a constant battle that God is fighting with us and for us - to save us and bring us back to what is right and good, with man constantly returning to his sins like a dog to his throwup. Was he not greatly saddened by the flood? Or angered by the Jews when they created the Golden Caph? Even to the point of threatening to destroy them all and restart with Moses? To say that the love of God does NOT entail attachment is clearly false.

To say that Christian love does not require attachment and desire is to ignore everything the Christianity is. You cannot love and feel nothing for your neighbor - you cannot be detached from their well-being and suffering. You cannot watch them in their time of need and suffering and not yourself desire to help them. Even one's enemies are to be loved - we are not to rejoice at their destruction, but feel great sorrow at their loss.

I'm inclined to agree that Christianity requires more than love without desire. But it doesn't change the fact that there has been no actual presentation of the conceptual understandings of love in Christianity or in Buddhism. That would have to be the starting point, otherwise there are simply a discussion of equivocation.

Also, it should not be neglected that for most of Christian tradition, in its theology. Mixing desire and suffering with love has not been done without criticism. The understanding of God was very quickly paired with the idea of the apatheia of God. That is God is unmoved, God is a perfect unchangeable being (change implies either increase or decrase in perfection, ergo the being is not already perfect). If that is maintained, then God cannot suffer, God cannot be affected by others. If that is paired with the idea that God is love (agape), the very perfection of love as such, then the perfection of love is unmoved by the suffering of others, it is the universal orientation towards the well being of all things. That idea is not that far from the concept of metta, unconditional universal love without attachment. Both are similar to the Stoic ideals of power as unilateral, you affect, but are not affected yourself.

Working that out actually requires some fairly complex theological thinking. Either God is perfect and cannot change, that is cannot know contingent facts, cannot be attached to or be affected by anyone or anything, God is a completely self-contained and self-sufficient perfect being. On the other side, saying that God changes in relation to all things presents the danger anthropomorphism. Hence there are certain forms of dipolar theism, that postulates that God is both absolute being, perfect in every way, but also the perfectly related individual (dipolar as having a pole that is the unconditionall ground of being itself, and a consequent pole that changes in relation to creation).

csuguy
March 7th, 2016, 11:04 PM
I'm inclined to agree that Christianity requires more than love without desire. But it doesn't change the fact that there has been no actual presentation of the conceptual understandings of love in Christianity or in Buddhism. That would have to be the starting point, otherwise there are simply a discussion of equivocation.

There has been discussion of the differences between the two - which is how we reached this point. But I am not against diving deeper into the matter; though I feel much of it is self-evident to one who is familiar with Christianity and the scriptures.

Let us start then with God, who is love, and the clear desires and suffering that arise from his love for us. Does he not describe himself as a jealous God? Does he not liken the worship of idols to adultery? Yes - he likens such an act to one of the gravest emotional injuries one can experience in this life, betrayal and abandonment from the one you dedicated your life too, your heart too. And we see throughout scripture his anger at this - did he not tell Moses that he would destroy all of Israel and begin again with him alone? So great was his fury that he was willing to destroy the very people he had just saved from Pharaoh - even his own people of promise, whom he had called his son.

Or again consider the destruction of the world in Noah's time: did he not do this because the evil in man's heart troubled his heart deeply and made him regret that he had ever made them?

Let us look at his desire for us: is it not that we should be saved from our sins and reconciled back to him as sons and daughters with Christ? And how greatly did he desire this that he would send his only begotten son, whom he loves, as a sacrifice for our sake? And how much did the son love us that he would be willing to endure such hardship and suffering for our sakes? In his life and death we find the greatest expression of love: to give one's life for one's loved ones.

Let us look at his commandments: the greatest of which are to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. And the second is like it - to love your fellow man as yourself. Christ pushes this even further and commands us to love others as he has loved us. Or again consider the wisdom of James that says that faith without works is dead. Consider the wisdom that one who has material wealth and sees one in need, but does not help them, does not have the love of God.

Love is the all-pervasive guide and motive behind everything God does, and everything that he commands of us. This love is not dispassionate, but brings joy and sorrow. For is God not saddened at the loss of one of his children, and does he not rejoice when a lost son finds his way back home? Does he not slay the fattened calf for him?

No, Christianity leaves no room for this idea that the love it speaks of is dispassionate and without desire - or even suffering. This is why God is said to be love: for it is the overriding characteristic that defines his very nature, the motive behind his every action.



Also, it should not be neglected that for most of Christian tradition, in its theology. Mixing desire and suffering with love has not been done without criticism. The understanding of God was very quickly paired with the idea of the apatheia of God. That is God is unmoved, God is a perfect unchangeable being (change implies either increase or decrase in perfection, ergo the being is not already perfect). If that is maintained, then God cannot suffer, God cannot be affected by others. If that is paired with the idea that God is love (agape), the very perfection of love as such, then the perfection of love is unmoved by the suffering of others, it is the universal orientation towards the well being of all things. That idea is not that far from the concept of metta, unconditional universal love without attachment. Both are similar to the Stoic ideals of power as unilateral, you affect, but are not affected yourself.

Working that out actually requires some fairly complex theological thinking. Either God is perfect and cannot change, that is cannot know contingent facts, cannot be attached to or be affected by anyone or anything, God is a completely self-contained and self-sufficient perfect being. On the other side, saying that God changes in relation to all things presents the danger anthropomorphism. Hence there are certain forms of dipolar theism, that postulates that God is both absolute being, perfect in every way, but also the perfectly related individual (dipolar as having a pole that is the unconditionall ground of being itself, and a consequent pole that changes in relation to creation).

There are those who have tried to maintain such arguments, but they are not rooted in scripture - they aren't rooted in what we know of God: his nature, actions, and desires. The position that God is completely unmoved without any variation is simply bad philosophy/theology.

In the first place - we see that God changes in various ways in the scriptures. Consider creation for instance: one one day he creates one thing. Then he stops, and on the next day he does makes something else. And on the final day he rests and creates nothing. Were God some static, unchanging figure this would not be possible. Nor would his heart be so troubled in one moment that he destroys the entire world, and in the next making a promise to never again destroy the world through water. He would not at one point call for all the first born sons of Israel to be priests, and in the next take only the sons of Aaron.

There is not honest way to approach the scriptures and maintain that God is unmoved. They have poorly interpreted the scriptures which talk about God's nature not changing and over applied it to create nonsensical contradictions.

Furthermore, just from a philosophical perspective the idea that if one changes then one cannot be perfect is fundamentally flawed. We know of numerous instances where flexibility/adaptability to the conditions makes one stronger than being rigid. Indeed - it is usually the case that adaptability is superior to something that is unbending. The scriptures themselves teach that there are times for all things in their turn: a time for sowing and a time for reaping, a time for peace and a time for war, etc. Does not the tree that is able to bend in the wind survive the storm? Does not a diverse genome make for a stronger species? Is not compassion and forgiveness superior to a rigid, unmerciful justice system?

Change does not necessarily equate to imperfection - but rather, the inability to change can make one weak and ill suited to handle changing conditions.

way 2 go
March 7th, 2016, 11:11 PM
:Popcorn:

csuguy
March 7th, 2016, 11:18 PM
To me it doesn't really matter what one wants to label themselves, the experience called karma is also just a word that is able to transcend across the spectrum of beliefs, using different marques/labels that can morph into what ever one needs it to mean to them while stuck in Identity, I would see the more excellent way being an ultimate state where these methods and religious paths or no longer a crutch for the mind to cuddle with dreaming I have found the exclusive/path answer withheld from other cultures through the Centuries until the historic Jesus arrived on the stage to pull the curtain back for the world to see God for the first time,
When it was in Man all along Luke 17:20-21, which is the esoteric mission presented in the scriptures to reconcile that dual nature Genesis 33:4, between the heart and mind going through Divine adolescents Galatians 4:23-28, not a outward history lesson to build megalithic doctrines on that divide everyone.

The desire for unity is good - but should not come at the expense of truth and wisdom. Attempting to merge contradictory ideas together means that you must compromise one or other - and most likely you will compromise the integrity of both. We must first understand what these different religions teach in their own right - and only then can we properly identify points of agreement and contention. A false unity between them does nothing to unify people, but merely throws another hat into the ring.


1 Cor 11:18-19 I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval.

way 2 go
March 7th, 2016, 11:20 PM
An individual in Buddhism may recognize that his actions are bad and will bring him harm, and thus change his ways. This is good. But Karma takes no note of it. What has been done will be revisited upon that individual no matter how much they repent and beg for mercy. Karma cannot show mercy, it knows not love.



:think:

:up:

freelight
March 8th, 2016, 02:46 AM
karma which is made up so anything goes .


Its not anything goes.

The law of 'karma' (actions and their effects) is not made up, but very real as far as 'cause' and 'effect' goes. Our dialogue is showing that you still haven't grasped or understood the law or principle of 'karma' which is universal and ever-acting on all levels of existence, wherever any activity exists. Every thought, word, action brings about a corresponding result or effect, and one bears the consequences of such actions, for as one 'sows' that also shall he 'reap', (what measure you give out, you will receive). - the effects may not be instantaneous or in this life time, but are harvested or reaped in some future life-experience when the time is ripe for such to take place.... the seed sown, will be harvested at some point in time. It is wisdom to recognize this, folly to dismiss it.


Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.

-Gal. 6:7-8

Paul evidently recognized this universal LAW. - again, 'karma' simply means 'action' or 'doing'....and the effects of such acts, as they continue to 'condition' one's experience. Only an simpleton would deny the law of cause/effect, since we all know our actions have consequences AND that we are judged by our actions to be 'rewarded' or 'punished' by the nature of those deeds, since the 'harvest' is in accordance with the nature/quality of the deeds.


you using a fantasy called karma saying having good karma will save you
and that the atonement of Christ who is God profits us nothing
that is an example of evil good and good evil

Nah, I'm recognizing the principle of karma for what it is as a law of nature (and markedly here from a Theosophical Perspective (http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/karma/ka-selec.htm)). You're prescribing and super-imposing the subject-matter with your own doctrinal over-lay, assuming that 'karma' is some kind of false concept or enemy because it threatens your 'theology' that only Christ's 'atonement' avails to save anyone from their 'sins' since he paid the price for them (basically wiped out their karma). - well,...this is another issue, but again, ....it violates the law of responsibility, for every soul suffers for its own sins and must atone for them as well. This is just and merciful since life is about progress/evolution...moving upward on the path towards perfection.


repentance does not atone for sin that must be your lies of karma speaking
since you leave out Christ who said his blood was for remission of sins.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

A man makes 'atonement' for his life, if you want to use that 'term', by DOING RIGHT....making amends, repenting, changing his life, returning to righteousness. Biblically speaking, 'repenting' has always been the essential way,....returning the heart and soul to 'God'. - religious rituals, props and sacrifices are but 'aids' to orient the soul back towards God, restoring worship.

The blood of Jesus is symbolic on many levels, but no matter how many songs you sing about, or what faith you put into its redeeming power,...your religious path is still one of 'faith'. While a few have claimed I have trodden the blood of Christ underfoot, because of my more liberal stance against the efficacy of 'blood-atonement', I have never denied its symbolic, mystical or occult meaning/value or power for that matter. But my embrace would be more from an Esoteric Christianity perspective, while all the while,...the Spirit alone is Power, the Spirit alone is Life.


in this life people evade it all the time.

To which Solomon always wondered....why the wicked seem to prosper while the righteous were poor or downtrodden. Interesting turn of events eh? It would 'seem' that there is no justice, if we see the wicked prosper and the just suffer,...but by the law of karma there is perfect justice in the universe...since there is all time and space afforded in the play of life for causes to produce effects and debts or balances to be compensated.


But God will Judge everyone
Heb_10:30 For we know him who said, "Vengeance is mine; I will repay."

Yes, the law has within it its own compensation.....inherent in the seed, is the fruit.


How nice of you to let the creator of everything play in your karma sandbox.

On a humorous note, consider that the 'Creator of everything' may not exist outside of the mind assuming such. - but that your actions will have certain consequences and effects, some that can be noticed and others that will not bear out until a future time or unknowable way...this is reasonable and logical....because you reap what you sow.


your god of karma is loving people into hell

Actually karma serves a corrective and instructive incentive to inspire souls to not do evil deeds because of the harm and suffering it brings.

Selaphiel
March 8th, 2016, 10:37 AM
There are those who have tried to maintain such arguments, but they are not rooted in scripture - they aren't rooted in what we know of God: his nature, actions, and desires. The position that God is completely unmoved without any variation is simply bad philosophy/theology.

In the first place - we see that God changes in various ways in the scriptures. Consider creation for instance: one one day he creates one thing. Then he stops, and on the next day he does makes something else. And on the final day he rests and creates nothing. Were God some static, unchanging figure this would not be possible. Nor would his heart be so troubled in one moment that he destroys the entire world, and in the next making a promise to never again destroy the world through water. He would not at one point call for all the first born sons of Israel to be priests, and in the next take only the sons of Aaron.


One thing is what the scriptures say. That and a philosophically coherent theology are not the same thing. I would also contend that the scriptures present a one clear coherent conception of God. The various books of the Bible do not necessarily agree theologically, just as there are many different Christologies in the New testament: Adoptionist Christology in Mark, Christology from the conception of birth in Matthew, Christ as fully made Son of God in the resurrection in Luke-Acts, Christ as the pre-existent Logos in John, Christ at least a pre-existent being in Paul (though not using the conceptual framework of Logos).

The second question is (and an ancient one) is whether a literalist reading of the portrayal of God in the Bible is possible intellectually speaking. Can we really say that God gets furious and flies off the handle (the Hebrew literally says that he wrinkles his nose, and that he is long nosed so the fury cools off before it erupts out of his nostrils). Can we say that God literally came down onto a mountain on Sinai? There are not obvious answers to these questions. You may of course claim that you have to read them literally, but then someone might say to you that are believing in something that is intellectually bankrupt.


There are those who have tried to maintain such arguments, but they are not rooted in scripture - they aren't rooted in what we know of God: his nature, actions, and desires.

Do you know them about God or do you know that that is how the scriptures (read literally) describe God? One would need a whole lot of rational justification to link those two.


There is not honest way to approach the scriptures and maintain that God is unmoved. They have poorly interpreted the scriptures which talk about God's nature not changing and over applied it to create nonsensical contradictions.

Of course there is, it would be an allegorical approach. Literal and honest are not necessarily the same. Then I could say that there is no honest way to approach the scriptures in which the world is not a flat disc with a literal underworld and sub-terranean waters of chaos and a cheeselid shaped solid firmament above with small celestial lights lodged into them (small relative to actual stars at least) and God's throne literally above that.


Furthermore, just from a philosophical perspective the idea that if one changes then one cannot be perfect is fundamentally flawed. We know of numerous instances where flexibility/adaptability to the conditions makes one stronger than being rigid. Indeed - it is usually the case that adaptability is superior to something that is unbending.

They would argue that that is anthropomorphic. Perfection would not need to change to adapt. They would argue that perfection is a fulfilled state, that you postulate that God in one way or another needs creation to fully realize Godself. That is, you claim that there is potentiality in God and to claim that there is potentiality in God. Perfection according to them is pure actuality, potentiality is imperfection per definition. That is, realization of potentiality would mean either: 1) God moves from being perfect to less perfect. 2) God moves toward perfection, hence God isn't perfect.


The scriptures themselves teach that there are times for all things in their turn: a time for sowing and a time for reaping, a time for peace and a time for war, etc. Does not the tree that is able to bend in the wind survive the storm? Does not a diverse genome make for a stronger species? Is not compassion and forgiveness superior to a rigid, unmerciful justice system? Change does not necessarily equate to imperfection - but rather, the inability to change can make one weak and ill suited to handle changing conditions

Once again, they would simply claim that such a description of God is anthropomorphic, that you conceive of God as a limited being. A diverse genome makes for a stronger species. A perfect genome with all possibilities actualized would not need to adapt to its environment, it would be unmoved by change in its environment.

I think the unmoved mover is problematic myself. But reference to a literal reading of the scriptures as a doctrine of God is a non-starter of a solution.

My point is simply that you cannot ignore the vast majority of theological history and how it spoke of God and thus of perfect love if you are going to give a meaningful description of the Christian conception of love. You have a bit of a tendency of a certain fallacy that is quite typical when people approach religion, the genetic fallacy: That the original form is the only correct form. Even if you want to argue that that must be the case, you also would have to deal with a rather serious problem related to hermeneutics and epistemology. We do not have unadulterated access to that understanding, we receive the texts and tradition through our own faculties of interpretation, we are not neutral observers. Read about Gadamer's hermeneutics for a relatively simple introduction. I do not think that there is any way back from the hermeneutical shift in human knowledge.

With that in mind. Setting up Christianity (TM) and Buddhism (TM) as polar opposites doesn't really do much, it very quickly devolves into polemics. In a pluralistic age we will gain far more from trying to approach other traditions with open minds (that is, not with the mindset that one of these must be 100% correct and the others must then be 100% wrong). I'm tempted by a Barthian purely from above approach to Christianity at times myself, but upon critical reflectioin it too often ends in secterianism, sealing off ones religion from the actual world. Of course, one has to balance this with maintaining the particularity of Christianity as well, one cannot abandon the thought of revelation either. Theology is a complicated discipline that really has to consider an awful lot of other disciplines.

Zeke
March 8th, 2016, 10:42 AM
The desire for unity is good - but should not come at the expense of truth and wisdom. Attempting to merge contradictory ideas together means that you must compromise one or other - and most likely you will compromise the integrity of both. We must first understand what these different religions teach in their own right - and only then can we properly identify points of agreement and contention. A false unity between them does nothing to unify people, but merely throws another hat into the ring.


1 Cor 11:18-19 I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval.

The problem with knowing the original intent of what they were meant to teach is as varied as the christian religion and the shady historical assumptions behind it, The early stages had a diverse pool of fish in it until Rome decided to pull the plug through deceit and force, But all that aside there is still some meat in the message that merges with other religions that predated it.

I get the need to be religiously/doctrine correct, a veil to thin to detect while its being worn by the converts looking outside the Kingdom.

The "Way" starts inwardly, the shadows of the outward are symbolic and temporal no matter what ever divisional marque they march under they are only tools to awaken the Divine Nature in man controlled by a persona created in the mind.

csuguy
March 8th, 2016, 02:49 PM
The problem with knowing the original intent of what they were meant to teach is as varied as the christian religion and the shady historical assumptions behind it, The early stages had a diverse pool of fish in it until Rome decided to pull the plug through deceit and force, But all that aside there is still some meat in the message that merges with other religions that predated it.

There are many different interpretations out there- but that does not mean that we can't arrive at a solid, logical interpretation that is consistent with the scriptures. But arriving at such a view requires a lot of study and debate- it requires persistence on your part. But God is good and promises that if you seek him with all your heart and soul that you will find him.



I get the need to be religiously/doctrine correct, a veil to thin to detect while its being worn by the converts looking outside the Kingdom.

The "Way" starts inwardly, the shadows of the outward are symbolic and temporal no matter what ever divisional marque they march under they are only tools to awaken the Divine Nature in man controlled by a persona created in the mind.

Of course what truly matters is what is in one's heart- not merely what one outwardly claims to believe. But that does not mean that beliefs are irrelevant. Beliefs are what frame our understanding of the world, and they serve as guides for our actions. Proper belief allows us to properly act on our desires, good or ill. Furthermore, belief has the ability to change the heart.

PureX
March 8th, 2016, 03:30 PM
There are indeed many views of karma. For example, in Jainism karma is considered to be a 'cosmic dirt' that is attracted to the vibrations of the soul that are caused by the activities of the mind, body, and speech. It is more of a physical substance. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma)

When I speak of karma in this thread I'm referring specifically about Karma as understood generally by Buddhism. There is a lot of overlap between Buddhism and Hinduism, though I'm not studied enough on Hinduism to say whether or not they have identical conceptions of karmaMy guess is that view of karma works more like spiritual currency, with gains and losses that hopefully will someday accumulate to the necessary amount to buy our freedom.

I can't entirely discount this idea, as freedom is certainly a desirous prize. But for myself, I have difficulty with the idea that the same 'soul' returns to the physical realm over and over. That just doesn't seem very likely. Nor does the idea that we are all struggling to achieve some utopian state.

Honestly, I think it's more likely that we are individualized 'bit' expressions of a kind of universal spirit/consciousness that is itself struggling to fully manifest. We came from this 'whole' and we will return to it soon enough. And our individuality, along with our 'karma' begins and ends in this temporary individualized state.

csuguy
March 8th, 2016, 03:51 PM
One thing is what the scriptures say. That and a philosophically coherent theology are not the same thing. I would also contend that the scriptures present a one clear coherent conception of God. The various books of the Bible do not necessarily agree theologically, just as there are many different Christologies in the New testament: Adoptionist Christology in Mark, Christology from the conception of birth in Matthew, Christ as fully made Son of God in the resurrection in Luke-Acts, Christ as the pre-existent Logos in John, Christ at least a pre-existent being in Paul (though not using the conceptual framework of Logos).

I agree that merely knowing what the scriptures literally say is not the same thing as a coherent theology. However, a theological system must be rooted - at least in part - in the scriptures. They record the history of man's interactions with God, they record God's promises and prophecies, and God's teachings for us. Even if you favor learning these things through other mediums like the Church Fathers - the Church Fathers themselves heavily based their views off of the scriptures, and demanded that others present their arguments from the scriptures.

You say that the different works of the scriptures present different Christologies - but this is because you fail to see how they complement one another. They are not different Christologies - merely different aspects of the same Christology. Each author focused on different things in accordance with his intended audience and the thrust of his message - but they all preached the same Gospel about the same Christ and the same God.


1 Cor 1:12-13 One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas[b]”; still another, “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?


The second question is (and an ancient one) is whether a literalist reading of the portrayal of God in the Bible is possible intellectually speaking. Can we really say that God gets furious and flies off the handle (the Hebrew literally says that he wrinkles his nose, and that he is long nosed so the fury cools off before it erupts out of his nostrils). Can we say that God literally came down onto a mountain on Sinai? There are not obvious answers to these questions. You may of course claim that you have to read them literally, but then someone might say to you that are believing in something that is intellectually bankrupt.

I do not maintain that one must read every little thing in the scriptures literally. To the contrary, one must study the scriptures in context to know whether a passage should be read literally, figuratively, etc. One must also look at the whole of scripture - for the scriptures often interact with each other. However, if one insists on reading a passage figuratively they should be able to defend that that is how it was intended to be read based upon the context - and not simply because it is easier for them to accept. That is an intellectually bankrupt practice - to interpret passages figuratively simply because they conflict with your pre-conceived notions, though the passage taken in context doesn't support it.



Do you know them about God or do you know that that is how the scriptures (read literally) describe God? One would need a whole lot of rational justification to link those two.

The scriptures are a record of man's interactions with God - they teach of his will, his character, his desires, etc. Even if you say they are imperfect due to man's influence - yet they are the best and most accurate source of information available to us. You may reject them - but then you are left with nothing to establish your own views in any meaningful sense.

As for the need for rational justification to link one to the other - that all depends upon who you are discussing these matters with. A Christian generally does not need to establish the authority of Christ to another Christian, for instance - it is a commonly accepted belief and so there is no need to go in-depth on that point. Nor do two mathematicians need to re-establish every theorem for one another in their discussions, nor do two scientists need to re-establish every scientific theory and law. In depth discussions of such points only need occur where there is conflict over them.

I've addressed you as a Christian thus far and so felt no need to go into such details. I understand that you prefer your denominations traditions to the truths of scripture - but even then you should understand the foundational role that the scriptures play in the faith - both of Christianity in general and of your sect specifically. However, the way you are speaking here it is as if you completely reject the scriptures in any meaningful sense - and if this is the case you are rejecting the roots of Christianity and replacing it for man-made nonsense. For what can you replace the scriptures with as a basis for your understanding of the faith?


Of course there is, it would be an allegorical approach. Literal and honest are not necessarily the same. Then I could say that there is no honest way to approach the scriptures in which the world is not a flat disc with a literal underworld and sub-terranean waters of chaos and a cheeselid shaped solid firmament above with small celestial lights lodged into them (small relative to actual stars at least) and God's throne literally above that.

Using the allegorical approach anywhere and everywhere is as equally intellectually dishonest as attempting the interpret the scriptures literally at all times. The proper approach is to study the scriptures to understand what they say in and of themselves - with no pre-conceived notions or agendas guiding your hand. You must study each passage in context to discern its meaning, and not dismiss what you find because it conflicts with your pre-conceived notions.


They would argue that that is anthropomorphic. Perfection would not need to change to adapt. They would argue that perfection is a fulfilled state, that you postulate that God in one way or another needs creation to fully realize Godself. That is, you claim that there is potentiality in God and to claim that there is potentiality in God. Perfection according to them is pure actuality, potentiality is imperfection per definition. That is, realization of potentiality would mean either: 1) God moves from being perfect to less perfect. 2) God moves toward perfection, hence God isn't perfect.

They can define and assert whatever they like - but at the end of the day it is empty sophistry with no basis in anything but themselves. It is an empty and vain philosophy which contradicts that which they are attempting to describe: God.


Once again, they would simply claim that such a description of God is anthropomorphic, that you conceive of God as a limited being. A diverse genome makes for a stronger species. A perfect genome with all possibilities actualized would not need to adapt to its environment, it would be unmoved by change in its environment.

I was not anthropomorphizing God - I was criticizing the general (mis)conception that perfection excludes the possibility of change. For different conditions call for different things - and that which is perfect must be able to adapt perfectly to the situation to be considered perfect. An inability to adapt makes one imperfect.


I think the unmoved mover is problematic myself. But reference to a literal reading of the scriptures as a doctrine of God is a non-starter of a solution.

I never proposed a purely literal reading the scriptures - you've simply gone and made assumptions about me. It maybe true that some the scriptures that I would take literally you would like to take figuratively/allegorically - and we an explore these individual passages together if you are so inclined.


My point is simply that you cannot ignore the vast majority of theological history and how it spoke of God and thus of perfect love if you are going to give a meaningful description of the Christian conception of love. You have a bit of a tendency of a certain fallacy that is quite typical when people approach religion, the genetic fallacy: That the original form is the only correct form. Even if you want to argue that that must be the case, you also would have to deal with a rather serious problem related to hermeneutics and epistemology. We do not have unadulterated access to that understanding, we receive the texts and tradition through our own faculties of interpretation, we are not neutral observers. Read about Gadamer's hermeneutics for a relatively simple introduction. I do not think that there is any way back from the hermeneutical shift in human knowledge.

I'm not ignoring anything - I've addressed the fallacious view you put forward, which you yourself do not accept apparently. As for the 'genetic fallacy' - it is true that the original form of something is not always the best form. However, in other cases it is - depends upon what you are talking about. When it comes to the teachings of Christianity - the original often is better than later versions, especially since the later versions aren't attempting to be novel but purport to be representative of Christ's teachings and the teachings of the early church.

The fundamental teachings of Christianity are not something need to evolve, not something that can be bettered by change. On auxiliary issues there is room for debate and flexibility for differing views between fellow Christians. However, there are core concepts, teachings, and values that form the very basis of Christianity and what it means to be a Christian - you can't compromise on these things and still be Christian. Like belief in God Almighty and in Jesus and his Gospel. What precisely falls into this group of concepts, teachings and values can be debated a little bit - but the fact that there are such core beliefs is indisputable.


With that in mind. Setting up Christianity (TM) and Buddhism (TM) as polar opposites doesn't really do much, it very quickly devolves into polemics. In a pluralistic age we will gain far more from trying to approach other traditions with open minds (that is, not with the mindset that one of these must be 100% correct and the others must then be 100% wrong). I'm tempted by a Barthian purely from above approach to Christianity at times myself, but upon critical reflectioin it too often ends in secterianism, sealing off ones religion from the actual world. Of course, one has to balance this with maintaining the particularity of Christianity as well, one cannot abandon the thought of revelation either. Theology is a complicated discipline that really has to consider an awful lot of other disciplines.

Presenting Christianity and Buddhism as opposites doesn't need an agenda - I merely pointed that out as a matter of fact. But it does do good - it helps do away with the non-sensical position that all religions are the same, with the same teachings and goals. This helps prevent people from blindly mixing and matching beliefs as if religion were a buffet - pick and choose whatever pleases you!

If you are truly a Christian then you should understand that Christianity is not just another philosophy - but that being a Christian means to follow the teachings and example of Christ, the Son of God Almighty. You understand that our task is fight for the hearts and minds of people so that they might be saved and reconciled to God. Saying that this is equivalent with any belief system out there and that we should just combine them demonstrates a complete lack of understanding and/or faith on your part.


2 Cor 10:3-5 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

I'm not against recognizing where Christianity and other forms of belief TRULY correlate and agree - what I am against is FALSE unity which only serves to dillute Christianity and draw people away from God and from truth

freelight
March 8th, 2016, 09:03 PM
My guess is that view of karma works more like spiritual currency, with gains and losses that hopefully will someday accumulate to the necessary amount to buy our freedom.

Kinda like checks and balances, where we can pay our debts and then strive to live our lives debt-free.


I can't entirely discount this idea, as freedom is certainly a desirous prize. But for myself, I have difficulty with the idea that the same 'soul' returns to the physical realm over and over. That just doesn't seem very likely. Nor does the idea that we are all struggling to achieve some utopian state.

Well,....different views of the mechanics of 'rebirth' exist,...varying upon the terms and definition of what comprises a 'soul', what parts of that 'soul' are 'immortal' (imperishable) and 'mortal' (perishable)...as 'man' seems to be a compound of both. Furthermore, what aspects of personality are carried on in the process of rebirth, or is an entirely new 'personality' born and developed during each new incarnation? We were covering the different schools on this in our last 'Reincarnation' threads (which are no longer extant) so may have to revive our coverage on it :think:


Honestly, I think it's more likely that we are individualized 'bit' expressions of a kind of universal spirit/consciousness that is itself struggling to fully manifest. We came from this 'whole' and we will return to it soon enough. And our individuality, along with our 'karma' begins and ends in this temporary individualized state.

Ah,...a lot here, and it carries over into how we allegorically interpret the soul's journey thru multiple life experiences. Also,...if we are individualized units of a greater Universal Consciousness,....then that Universal Mind or Consciousness is living/experiencing life in every possible dimension and limitation thru us (or even as us), as a manifold 'interface' within Creation. We are multiple points of reflection/refraction of the one universal Light, individual spirit-offspring of One Universal Father-Mother. Of course we can explore these metaphors and archetypes further....as they all relate. It appears that Creation itself is Deity extending itself in space-time undergoing the limitations thereof to unfold creative potential within dimensionality and form, as a creative play, an adventure of possibility. Hence universal consciousness is engaging in a cosmic drama of karma (action). As long as it continues to unfold (potentials becoming actuals, actuals giving birth to new potentials), the currents of cause & effect continue on.........

way 2 go
March 8th, 2016, 09:25 PM
Its not anything goes.

The law of 'karma' (actions and their effects) is not made up, but very real as far as 'cause' and 'effect' goes. Our dialogue is showing that you still haven't grasped or understood the law or principle of 'karma' which is universal and ever-acting on all levels of existence, wherever any activity exists. Every thought, word, action brings about a corresponding result or effect, and one bears the consequences of such actions, for as one 'sows' that also shall he 'reap', (what measure you give out, you will receive). - the effects may not be instantaneous or in this life time, but are harvested or reaped in some future life-experience when the time is ripe for such to take place.... the seed sown, will be harvested at some point in time. It is wisdom to recognize this, folly to dismiss it.

it is like a math formula where there is no certain values to the equation

karma
kill a person -1 could be -10 , -113 who knows or
a + again who knows its made up

fornicate and have a child +1 = even ... or not

any unexplained bad things happen to you well the made up explanation for that
it is because of past lives



Paul evidently recognized this universal LAW. - again, 'karma' simply means 'action' or 'doing'....and the effects of such acts, as they continue to 'condition' one's experience. Only an simpleton would deny the law of cause/effect, since we all know our actions have consequences AND that we are judged by our actions to be 'rewarded' or 'punished' by the nature of those deeds, since the 'harvest' is in accordance with the nature/quality of the deeds.

Paul knew the law mosaic that is
Php 3:5 I was circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews. As regards the Law, I was a Pharisee;


good works in the flesh will profit you nothing
Gal 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.




Nah, I'm recognizing the principle of karma for what it is as a law of nature (and markedly here from a Theosophical Perspective (http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/karma/ka-selec.htm)). You're prescribing and super-imposing the subject-matter with your own doctrinal over-lay, assuming that 'karma' is some kind of false concept or enemy because it threatens your 'theology' that only Christ's 'atonement' avails to save anyone from their 'sins' since he paid the price for them (basically wiped out their karma). - well,...this is another issue, but again, ....it violates the law of responsibility, for every soul suffers for its own sins and must atone for them as well. This is just and merciful since life is about progress/evolution...moving upward on the path towards perfection.

not assuming karma is lie , karma is a lie
there is hardly any justice in this world which is what karma preaches
sowing and reaping ,justice
and when we don't see this and the lie is pointed out
karma lies and uses past lives lie to explain why we don't see karma




A man makes 'atonement' for his life, if you want to use that 'term', by DOING RIGHT....making amends, repenting, changing his life, returning to righteousness. Biblically speaking, 'repenting' has always been the essential way,....returning the heart and soul to 'God'. - religious rituals, props and sacrifices are but 'aids' to orient the soul back towards God, restoring worship.
I think you confused Christianity with alcoholics anonymous

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/kxG.gif

free gift

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.




The blood of Jesus is symbolic on many levels, but no matter how many songs you sing about, or what faith you put into its redeeming power,...your religious path is still one of 'faith'. While a few have claimed I have trodden the blood of Christ underfoot, because of my more liberal stance against the efficacy of 'blood-atonement', I have never denied its symbolic, mystical or occult meaning/value or power for that matter. But my embrace would be more from an Esoteric Christianity perspective, while all the while,...the Spirit alone is Power, the Spirit alone is Life.

Your the one facing eternal conscious torment

Joh_14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

or

Rev_22:11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy."


To which Solomon always wondered....why the wicked seem to prosper while the righteous were poor or downtrodden. Interesting turn of events eh? It would 'seem' that there is no justice, if we see the wicked prosper and the just suffer,...but by the law of karma there is perfect justice in the universe...since there is all time and space afforded in the play of life for causes to produce effects and debts or balances to be compensated.

the lie of reincarnation




Actually karma serves a corrective and instructive incentive to inspire souls to not do evil deeds because of the harm and suffering it brings.

actually karma says let people suffer so they can pay off their bad karma

Luk 10:36 Which of these three, do you think, proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell among the robbers?"
Luk 10:37 He said, "The one who showed him mercy." And Jesus said to him, "You go, and do likewise."

csuguy
March 8th, 2016, 09:33 PM
My guess is that view of karma works more like spiritual currency, with gains and losses that hopefully will someday accumulate to the necessary amount to buy our freedom.

I can't entirely discount this idea, as freedom is certainly a desirous prize. But for myself, I have difficulty with the idea that the same 'soul' returns to the physical realm over and over. That just doesn't seem very likely. Nor does the idea that we are all struggling to achieve some utopian state.

Honestly, I think it's more likely that we are individualized 'bit' expressions of a kind of universal spirit/consciousness that is itself struggling to fully manifest. We came from this 'whole' and we will return to it soon enough. And our individuality, along with our 'karma' begins and ends in this temporary individualized state.

Yea that's a bit different from the Buddhist conception. They don't want to build up karma - even good karma - for that keeps them in samsara.

So you hold more of a pantheistic view of the world then? Interesting. Do you consider there to be a purpose to the temporary, individualized state with respects the 'whole'?

freelight
March 8th, 2016, 10:19 PM
any unexplained bad things happen to you well the made up explanation for that
it is because of past lives

Let's follow again,....since you reap what you've sown (any acts committed in the past)...some of your 'harvest' may not be collected until an opportune time in the future,...so it quite logical that something you're experiencing now could be the result of some past action, unless your suffering or good fortune is wholly 'accidental' or 'random', but some would question this or allow such to happen very rarely. In any case 'Reincarnation' (rebirth) and karma go hand in hand from an eastern-religious perspective, and satisfies a rational philosophical approach to the issues of justice and personal responsibility. Any life experience you or I go thru, such can be a product of many different factors serving as 'causes' which condition our current life-experience....and we do acts in the present which further affects our future. Our conditions and destiny are in our own hands.

Oh, you can throw in a personal 'God' here if you like,....you're still responsible for your own choices and their consequences. Follow?


not assuming karma is lie , karma is a lie
there is hardly any justice in this world which is what karma preaches
sowing and reaping ,justice
and when we don't see this and the lie is pointed out
karma lies and uses past lives lie to explain why we don't see karma

The fact remains, whatever kind of seeds you plant, you will reap a harvest of like kind or nature. Whatever you are sowing, you will reap accordingly. Actions have consequences,....causal actions have their 'effects'. You can deny 'karma' til the cows come home, but the law remains.


Your the one facing eternal conscious torment

I've spent a good deal of writing against the heinous concept of ECT here (http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?1581-ECT) :) - I don't fear it, because I don't believe in a 'god' who would enforce or allow such an abject condition for any sentient being. - its insane.



the lie of reincarnation

Beyond you providing proof for such, I explore the concept 'philosophically'....so 'rebirth'(reincarnation) is similar to 'resurrection',...note the spirit-soul comes back in a new body in both cases,...there is 're-embodiment'. I'm not dogmatic about 'rebirth', I explore and consider it philosophically,...I'm open to it, but have not come to a final conclusion on the matter...but see how it ties in with karma in certain schools of thought.



actually karma says let people suffer so they can pay off their bad karma

Not really, for we are still to serve and assist all souls wherever we find them suffering. Love will act and serve wherever one has need. Love does as love wills.The law of karma is much more merciful than ECT, since the former is JUST in that a sinner only suffers for his own sins, to whatever degree or duration is appropriate, (suffering endures only as long as one is transgressing the law, and only lasts until such sinning stops and is atoned for) ...one is not sentenced or condemned to suffer eternally forever and ever....TO NO END. This is not only unjust, but insane. Its tyranny and cruelty beyond measure. This is what eternal tormentists enivision God as, which is pretty scary.

PureX
March 9th, 2016, 09:28 AM
Ah,...a lot here, and it carries over into how we allegorically interpret the soul's journey thru multiple life experiences. Also,...if we are individualized units of a greater Universal Consciousness,....then that Universal Mind or Consciousness is living/experiencing life in every possible dimension and limitation thru us (or even as us), as a manifold 'interface' within Creation. We are multiple points of reflection/refraction of the one universal Light, individual spirit-offspring of One Universal Father-Mother. Of course we can explore these metaphors and archetypes further....as they all relate. It appears that Creation itself is Deity extending itself in space-time undergoing the limitations thereof to unfold creative potential within dimensionality and form, as a creative play, an adventure of possibility. Hence universal consciousness is engaging in a cosmic drama of karma (action). As long as it continues to unfold (potentials becoming actuals, actuals giving birth to new potentials), the currents of cause & effect continue on.........I don't really see this as metaphor. I think this is really how it is. Sort of like when warm humid air encounters a cold air mass in the atmosphere, and the humidity condenses to become individual droplets of water, and then they freeze to become individual 'flakes' of snow.

As the 'spirit' manifests in the physical realm, it becomes disseminated into many individual forms, each uniquely individualized by it's own physical circumstance. Yet each remains a direct expression of the spirit whole from which it is manifesting … and to which it will return. Carrying with it the changes that have occurred via this individualization, and adding those to the collective/univrsal nature of the whole.

PureX
March 9th, 2016, 09:39 AM
So you hold more of a pantheistic view of the world then? Interesting. Do you consider there to be a purpose to the temporary, individualized state with respects the 'whole'?I think "God" is awakening and discovering/defining Itself, through these physical individualizations of 'spirit' of which we are a small, unique (but temporary) bit part.

way 2 go
March 9th, 2016, 10:39 PM
Let's follow again,....since you reap what you've sown (any acts committed in the past)...some of your 'harvest' may not be collected until an opportune time in the future,...so it quite logical that something you're experiencing now could be the result of some past action, unless your suffering or good fortune is wholly 'accidental' or 'random', but some would question this or allow such to happen very rarely. In any case 'Reincarnation' (rebirth) and karma go hand in hand from an eastern-religious perspective, and satisfies a rational philosophical approach to the issues of justice and personal responsibility. Any life experience you or I go thru, such can be a product of many different factors serving as 'causes' which condition our current life-experience....and we do acts in the present which further affects our future. Our conditions and destiny are in our own hands.
like I said
it is like a math formula where there is no certain values to the equation and you have not shown otherwise.

karma
kill a person -1 could be -10 , -113 who knows or
a + again who knows its made up

it is about sin and just one sin separates you from God

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.




Oh, you can throw in a personal 'God' here if you like,....you're still responsible for your own choices and their consequences. Follow?

Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.





The fact remains, whatever kind of seeds you plant, you will reap a harvest of like kind or nature. Whatever you are sowing, you will reap accordingly. Actions have consequences,....causal actions have their 'effects'. You can deny 'karma' til the cows come home, but the law remains.


13:37 He answered, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
Mat 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
Mat 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels.
Mat 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
Mat 13:42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.



I've spent a good deal of writing against the heinous concept of ECT here (http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?1581-ECT) :) - I don't fear it, because I don't believe in a 'god' who would enforce or allow such an abject condition for any sentient being. - its insane.

karma is insane



Beyond you providing proof for such, I explore the concept 'philosophically'....so 'rebirth'(reincarnation) is similar to 'resurrection',...note the spirit-soul comes back in a new body in both cases,...there is 're-embodiment'. I'm not dogmatic about 'rebirth', I explore and consider it philosophically,...I'm open to it, but have not come to a final conclusion on the matter...but see how it ties in with karma in certain schools of thought.
not you die once then the judgement.
Heb_9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,



Not really, for we are still to serve and assist all souls wherever we find them suffering. Love will act and serve wherever one has need. Love does as love wills.The law of karma is much more merciful than ECT, since the former is JUST in that a sinner only suffers for his own sins, to whatever degree or duration is appropriate, (suffering endures only as long as one is transgressing the law, and only lasts until such sinning stops and is atoned for) ...one is not sentenced or condemned to suffer eternally forever and ever....TO NO END. This is not only unjust, but insane. Its tyranny and cruelty beyond measure. This is what eternal tormentists enivision God as, which is pretty scary.

karma is undefined
kill a person -1 could be -10 , -113 who knows or
a + again who knows its made up

but sin that separates you from God , your separated from God right now
Eph_2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses

freelight
March 10th, 2016, 12:50 AM
I don't really see this as metaphor. I think this is really how it is. Sort of like when warm humid air encounters a cold air mass in the atmosphere, and the humidity condenses to become individual droplets of water, and then they freeze to become individual 'flakes' of snow.

As the 'spirit' manifests in the physical realm, it becomes disseminated into many individual forms, each uniquely individualized by it's own physical circumstance. Yet each remains a direct expression of the spirit whole from which it is manifesting … and to which it will return. Carrying with it the changes that have occurred via this individualization, and adding those to the collective/univrsal nature of the whole.

:thumb:

I was just meaning that we are describing the relationship of the part to the whole in some metaphorical language or illustrations, such as the water droplets that make up the whole ocean,...or the waves of that same ocean being individual expressions or movements of 'universal water', taking on different forms/shapes, but remaining essentially 'water' in nature. In this way, as far as karmic relationships go, its all inter-dependent and associated as far as cause/effects go, since there is a continual unfolding of determining actions which produces corresponding ones,...like the 'ripple effect' thru-out the whole.

way 2 go
March 16th, 2016, 10:42 PM
karma says you get more lives to pile up sin :nono: to get it right :nono:
to get to neutral karma :devil:

Christianity says sin is death ...
Jas_1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
and the only solution is Jesus Chtrist
Joh_8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."

freelight
March 17th, 2016, 02:39 PM
karma says you get more lives to pile up sin :nono: to get it right :nono:
to get to neutral karma :devil:

karma means 'action' or 'doing', and includes all the interactions that occur with the sequence of actions and the consequences or results of such actions. It still holds that what you sow is what you reap,....as long as your thoughts, words and deeds have any conditional effect whatsoever. I'd do more research on universal laws.


Christianity says sin is death ...
Jas_1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
and the only solution is Jesus Chtrist
Joh_8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins."

We do note that some passages say 'the wages of sin is death', and such is logical since any transgression of natural or divine law has a penalty or consequence,....just as obedience or living in harmony with such laws have their results. Paul recognized this universal principle and expounded on it in his discourses as he understood it. "God (the originator of law or law itself) is not mocked,...whatever a man sows, that also shall he reap. - he goes on about sowing to the flesh or the spirit, but note, ...its the same law...just applied in his own terms, as per his own experience of the flesh and the spirit.

As long as there is action and their consequences, the interaction of cause & effect.....there is 'karma', for that is what karma is. Every soul during any time of reckoning or accounting is judged how? - according to their works (karma). As long as there is 'doing' of any kind, any kind of 'acitivity',...there is karma. Fact of life.

PureX
March 17th, 2016, 03:42 PM
I don't really see karma as relating to Christian ideology, specifically, except perhaps as love, forgiveness, kindness and generosity being it's own kind of reward. I think karma is fundamentally an issue of 'balance', which is not a significant ideal in the Christian worldview.

In eastern thought, there is the 'yin' and the 'yang', and they are perceived as opposing forces that remain in perpetual balance with each other. And it's through this perpetual balance of opposition that existence happens. In western thought (particularly religious Christian thought) there is good and evil, and they are viewed as opposing forces, but there is little or no concern for a 'balance' between them. Only the will of each to annihilate the other.

Karma is the perceived phenomena of existence reestablishing it's itself, through this balance, I think. Not of the ultimate triumph of good over evil, or of evil over good, as is the main concern of Christian ideology.

There are, however, a few places in the NT where I see the concept of karma being addressed a bit more directly, and that's in the various passages about divine 'turn-about': like, "Many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first". And, "Do not judge others, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn others, or it will all come back against you. Forgive others, and you will be forgiven.". I think these quotes do imply some sort of karmic balance even if it's not being directly addressed or defined.

Ktoyou
March 17th, 2016, 05:01 PM
Have bad karma, live again as a duck:rolleyes::dizzy:

freelight
March 17th, 2016, 05:31 PM
I am Christian so I don't believe in karma. I believe we get what we deserve based on Gods judgments.

I think our other posts here have already addressed this. You don't have to believe that actions have effects and consequences,...but that's life. It doesn't matter what 'label' or 'brand' of religion you choose to affiliate with.

way 2 go
March 18th, 2016, 09:27 PM
karma means 'action' or 'doing', and includes all the interactions that occur with the sequence of actions and the consequences or results of such actions. It still holds that what you sow is what you reap,....as long as your thoughts, words and deeds have any conditional effect whatsoever. I'd do more research on the universal laws.
you're a weed

13:37 He answered, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
Mat 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,



We do note that some passages say 'the wages of sin is death', and such is logical since any transgression of natural or divine law has a penalty or consequence,....

Jas_1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

death not another life


just as obedience or living in harmony with such laws have their results.
karma laws are arbitrary and will lead to death

Pro_14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.



Paul recognized this universal principle and expounded on it in his discourses as he understood it. "God (the originator of law or law itself) is not mocked,...
Paul taught Christians are not under law

Rom 7:3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
Rom 7:4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another,


whatever a man sows, that also shall he reap. - he goes on about sowing to the flesh or the spirit, but note, ...its the same law...just applied in his own terms, as per his own experience of the flesh and the spirit.



1Ti_5:24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment. And some they also follow after.



As long as there is action and their consequences, the interaction of cause & effect.....there is 'karma', for that is what karma is. Every soul during any time of reckoning or accounting is judged how? - according to their works (karma). As long as there is 'doing' of any kind, any kind of 'acitivity',...there is karma. Fact of life.

it is about sin and just one sin separates you from God

Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life.

Robert Pate
March 19th, 2016, 03:59 PM
The Bible knows nothing about karma.

If you sin and you suffer the consequences karma has nothing to do with it.

freelight
March 20th, 2016, 02:27 PM
The Bible knows nothing about karma.

This is an ignorant statement. Of course the Sanskrit word 'karm' (karma) is not in the Bible, for it comes from Hindu tradition and their sacred literature, but the principle of 'sowing & reaping', cause & effect, 'action & consequence' is found in the Bible and further confirmed by human experience. Actions have consequences. Why would anyone deny that?

I'd start with my earlier post here (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?116739-Christianity-vs-karma&p=4641409&viewfull=1#post4641409), and follow along, first understanding what 'karma' is (its simply 'action' and its various 're-actions' as all activities are 'inter-active' and produce various effects. That's what 'karma' refers to, fundamentally. Now there are various kinds of karma, and how 'intention' and circumstantial issues factor into producing results, but it still holds that "whatever a man sows, that also shall he reap". One's actions have consequences, they have their effect (these effects may be experienced sooner or later in time in one form or another). One doesn't need a 'Bible' or some other holy book to recognize such a law of nature, although some holy books speak about the principle. Therefore 'action' (one's deeds) are very vital in determining one's experience of life or death, blessing or cursing, joy or suffering.....since one is always experiencing in some form or fasion, the measure of his own doings, they are measured back to him. Such also corresponds to the concept of 'seedtime and harvest'. Whatever kind of seeds you are sowing, you can expect (as a veritable law of nature) the kind of harvest that those seeds(kind) determine. I don't think this is too difficult a concept to grasp.

While the eastern concept of 'karma' within its own various philosophical schools is different from a western traditional-orthodox Christian theological context, as far as how 'actions' affect ones condition of life, and ultimate destiny (salvation, enlightenment, etc.)...it still holds that actions have corresponding results and are ever 'inter-acting' with many other factors, to produce effects, but all these actions are inter-relating, inter-dependent, co-operating.


If you sin and you suffer the consequences karma has nothing to do with it.

If you commit an unlawful/harmful action (sin) you certainly suffer the consequence of that 'act', and this is what karma is, a perfect example. Remember, 'karma' simply means 'action' or 'doing'...and includes the creative power and result of the action itself,.....act and consequence,.....cause/effect. One can learn from his actions (karma) and no longer do the acts that cause suffering, pain, death, etc.....and do good actions to reap the rewards of right doing. There is also doing good karma for its own sake, in a self-less way, not for the rewards, but for the sake of goodness, compassion, kindness itself which transcends desire for reward or self-recognition.

We have to understand that 'karma' refers to the entire universe of activity,....all existence/creation is an interacting cosmos of karmic interaction. Science proves this in its own realm of experimentation, as it follows and documents the patterns of action/reaction, cause/effect and discovers certain laws of nature, how atoms, forces, elements, chemicals, substances interact with each other to produce certain effects. We can correlate the law with almost every activity in human experience and the cosmos.

'Karma' has everything to do with 'sin' and suffering its consequences. You may not like the word 'karma' due to negative or mistaken connotations given it, but its a principle worth researching as understood in both eastern and western schools of thought, since they each have different perspectives and insights into its workings.

freelight
March 20th, 2016, 02:57 PM
you're a weed

13:37 He answered, "The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
Mat 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,

:angel:



Jas_1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

An example of karma.


death not another life

I never implied that the above verse means 'another life' :idunno: - you're presupposing the concept of 'reincarnation' here. I've had my own 'Reincarnation' thread and coordinated another,...but I've not expressly brought 'rebirth' up here, except maybe a few references. We're talking mainly 'karma' (action) here :) - its already a given that 'sin' (transgressing natural or divine law) has consequences. Back to square 1 ;) - do please note as well,.....in this life or any life (thru-out the continuity of multiple life experiences),....actions and their determining effects continue, and will be harvested at some point in time as long as their is a conscious entity to experience the effects. - as a mystic he intuited these laws, using his own terms to describe such.



karma laws are arbitrary and will lead to death

Pro_14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death.

:noid:



Paul taught Christians are not under law

Rom 7:3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
Rom 7:4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another,

Not sure where this applies. Remember as noted earlier,...Paul recognized the law of karma (sowing/reaping) and natural and spiritual laws of existence. (law of sin and death; law of the Spirit of life, etc.)




it is about sin and just one sin separates you from God

Yes,...its all about 'karma'. Remember....'karma' includes all actions, including 'sin'. All are judged by their 'karma' (works). What you think, say and DO....has consequences. The effect is in the cause, so that this law is inherent within actions themselves, as a seed that has within it the fruit that corresponds to its nature,...according to the kind of seed you sow, that same kind in one form or another shall be reaped.

way 2 go
April 16th, 2016, 05:10 PM
Jas_1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

An example of karma.
:nono:
end result eternity in heaven or hell
you cant earn your way out of going to hell



I never implied that the above verse means 'another life' :idunno: - you're presupposing the concept of 'reincarnation' here. I've had my own 'Reincarnation' thread and coordinated another,...but I've not expressly brought 'rebirth' up here, except maybe a few references. We're talking mainly 'karma' (action) here :) - its already a given that 'sin' (transgressing natural or divine law) has consequences. Back to square 1 ;)
you can't make yourself alive to Christ after you have died spiritually

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.




- do please note as well,.....in this life or any life (thru-out the continuity of multiple life experiences),....actions and their determining effects continue, and will be harvested at some point in time as long as their is a conscious entity to experience the effects. - as a mystic he intuited these laws, using his own terms to describe such.
:nono:

karma is not a law it is a lie made up to make you fell better
about being a "good person" being enough.

Luk 23:42 And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
Luk 23:43 And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."



Not sure where this applies. Remember as noted earlier,...Paul recognized the law of karma (sowing/reaping) and natural and spiritual laws of existence. (law of sin and death; law of the Spirit of life, etc.)

not karma
Saul became Paul on his way to Damascus faith saved Paul

Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.

Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.




Yes,...its all about 'karma'. Remember....'karma' includes all actions, including 'sin'. All are judged by their 'karma' (works). What you think, say and DO....has consequences. The effect is in the cause, so that this law is inherent within actions themselves, as a seed that has within it the fruit that corresponds to its nature,...according to the kind of seed you sow, that same kind in one form or another shall be reaped.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

freelight
April 19th, 2016, 03:39 AM
:nono:
end result eternity in heaven or hell
you cant earn your way out of going to hell


Lets remember that you are reaping whatever you sow, getting back what you give out, experiencing the effect of what your actions cause, in this life and all lives thru-out space and time....as long as your actions are conditional. This is the case whether you believe in a 'heaven' or 'hell' somewhere else out in space or not. The truth is you have the seed-potentials of heaven and hell in your soul at every moment, and are creating your own conditions by your choices and actions in every moment, however these effects play themselves out. Actions and their results is what karma is.

You are earning heaven or hell....from moment to moment by your own attitude and actions.


karma is not a law it is a lie made up to make you fell better
about being a "good person" being enough.

Cause & effect is a natural and scientific law. You will suffer for your own wrongdoing, and be rewarded for right-doing.

I highly recommend Manly P. Hall's lecture below as a primer on the subject -


https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=ajAtIQOw3rg

TulipBee
April 19th, 2016, 05:03 AM
The sound from the clapping hand never fades away. The sound travels through space non stop long after you're dead. That is the effect low level Christians would like to deny.

patrick jane
April 19th, 2016, 06:37 AM
The sound from the clapping hand never fades away. The sound travels through space non stop long after you're dead. That is the effect low level Christians would like to deny.
Sound does fade and vanish, it does not continue forever, that's childish

TulipBee
April 19th, 2016, 07:27 AM
Sound does fade and vanish, it does not continue forever, that's childish
Like light waves, it continues. Blast a sound in the ocean and the ocean waves cause new waves and it multiplies and causes the weather change. Soon your home gets blown away due to your karma insulting people 24/7. Better go dig yourself a hole and stay in it.

patrick jane
April 19th, 2016, 07:29 AM
Like light waves, it continues. Blast a sound in the ocean and the ocean waves cause new waves and it multiplies and causes the weather change. Soon your home gets blown away due to your karma insulting people 24/7. Better go dig yourself a hole and stay in it.
Wrong. God is in control, karma is for heretics like you. Your possessions will vanish

TulipBee
April 19th, 2016, 08:02 AM
Wrong. God is in control, karma is for heretics like you. Your possessions will vanish
Naughty boy. We still see light waves produced a billion years ago. Sound is the same

patrick jane
April 19th, 2016, 08:28 AM
Naughty boy. We still see light waves produced a billion years ago. Sound is the same
You're just like Carl Satan Sagan

patrick jane
April 19th, 2016, 08:29 AM
Naughty boy. We still see light waves produced a billion years ago. Sound is the same
Sound stops, ever heard of a soundproof room

TulipBee
April 19th, 2016, 09:27 AM
You're just like Carl Satan Sagan
Nevermind. You don't know anything. Bye bye

freelight
April 20th, 2016, 12:52 AM
The sound from the clapping hand never fades away. The sound travels through space non stop long after you're dead. That is the effect low level Christians would like to deny.


Good observation, for all sound waves, energy particles, ions, atoms in movement, in space and time inter-sect, inter-relate and converge with other atoms, sound waves and energy patterns, so they all coalesce in many different ways,...back to the ripple effect idea. And still, no matter how many theological concepts or 'verses' are thrown at my own dissertations on 'karma', it still follows that cause & effect continues thru-out nature, as the law of motion and its corresponding movements, action and re-action, seedtime and harvest. One can also throw any eschatological frame work over it, and it still holds....."actions have their consequences"; one reaps what he sows. The law is individual and universal. Determinations are according to one's karma (actions/deeds)

24036

way 2 go
April 22nd, 2016, 08:38 PM
Lets remember that you are reaping whatever you sow, getting back what you give out, experiencing the effect of what your actions cause
lets look around and see we are not reaping what we sow
not even close.



, in this life and all lives thru-out space and time....as long as your actions are conditional.
"as long as your actions are conditional" :confused:



This is the case whether you believe in a 'heaven' or 'hell' somewhere else out in space or not. The truth is you have the seed-potentials of heaven and hell in your soul at every moment, and are creating your own conditions by your choices and actions in every moment, however these effects play themselves out.

with out Jesus you are going to hell no matter how nice you are.



Actions and their results is what karma is.
no such thing as karma, non-quantifiable




You are earning heaven or hell....from moment to moment by your own attitude and actions.
:nono:

you are earning a harsher judgement for constantly being exposed to truth
and rejecting it. :(


Cause & effect is a natural and scientific law.
in physics .


You will suffer for your own wrongdoing, and be rewarded for right-doing.
when?

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

you are guaranteed a judgement day

freelight
April 22nd, 2016, 11:41 PM
lets look around and see we are not reaping what we sow
not even close.

Lets see, we've been over this several times already. Actions have their consequences inherent in themselves, ...the results of actions have immediate and eventual effects which manifest in different ways in time.



"as long as your actions are conditional" :confused:

All I mean here is as long as your actions are 'conditional', meaning they have the power to 'condition' your experience (remember movements arise in a 'cause/effect' sequence). Actions set forth conditions which bring into effect following conditions. Actions condition your experience and set the stage for corresponding effects. This is what I mean by 'conditional', if you have some liberal interpretive powers to follow every nook and cranny of its meaning :)


with out Jesus you are going to hell no matter how nice you are.

This is totally a presumptuous religious belief, based on your own terms and conclusions. Still,....the law of karma continues, as long as any actions whatsoever arise and bring forth their corresponding effects. karma is innate to this space-time creation, wherever actions of any kind take place in the cosmos.


no such thing as karma, non-quantifiable

Actions are happening within and without us, all around, thru-out CREATION. Creation is an ever engaging inter-activity of matter, mind, energy, spirit. Science measures and observes the realm of cause/effect in nature,...but on the inner/metaphysical and invisible dimension of existence,....the same law holds but acting on the subjective level of 'experience'. Can you quantify 'energy', 'consciousness' or 'spirit'? Can you quantify 'God'? :idunno: - if your using this kind of logic to prove or disprove something such as invisible universal laws, then you could just as well deny all psychic/spiritual laws and even 'God' Himself....since he is not 'visible' or apparently 'quantifiable' :rolleyes:


you are earning a harsher judgement for constantly being exposed to truth
and rejecting it. :(

As a theosophist, I simply acknowledge a universal law of nature, that actions exist and arise spontaneously, and that these actions have effects. Its that simple at the heart of it, but more complex as we consider how karma is operating in the whole of Nature, in its many different ways, on various levels of existence thru-out space and time.



in physics .

As well as logical and reasonable on the meta-physical level and dimension of existence.



when?

Since actions have their consequences inherent within them, the 'harvesting' of such seeds sown can happen within any given point of time, within the spectrum that such a law allows, but the 'reaping' of what is sown will occur. Time is only a relative measure of what appears to be 'delay' until the harvest is reaped. This should allow you a more liberal observation of what is called 'judgment' or some 'judgment' day.....since the universe thru 'karma' takes care of all measures and balances of justice, and is the means by which all souls also learn, progress and advance along the path towards perfection.


Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

you are guaranteed a judgement day

Lets re-iterate that to say, that yes.....all actions will have their consequences. This holds as long as you are a conscious being and can think, speak or act (remember,....karma is action). All actions have their own judgment within themselves and the rewards or penalties "built-in". This is the case whether one conceives of the law or 'Deity' as 'impersonal', or if one has a concept of an anthropomorphic 'God' on a throne meting out 'judgment',...the effect of the law of God or Nature...still carries out. The 'Light' or the 'Christ' weighs and judges all by their 'works'(karma). Hopefully we are getting a better understanding of what 'karma' is.

dodge
April 24th, 2016, 04:26 PM
Lets see, we've been over this several times already. Actions have their consequences inherent in themselves, ...the results of actions have immediate and eventual effects which manifest in different ways in time.




All I mean here is as long as your actions are 'conditional', meaning they have the power to 'condition' your experience (remember movements arise in a 'cause/effect' sequence). Actions set forth conditions which bring into effect following conditions. Actions condition your experience and set the stage for corresponding effects. This is what I mean by 'conditional', if you have some liberal interpretive powers to follow every nook and cranny of its meaning :)



This is totally a presumptuous religious belief, based on your own terms and conclusions. Still,....the law of karma continues, as long as any actions whatsoever arise and bring forth their corresponding effects. karma is innate to this space-time creation, wherever actions of any kind take place in the cosmos.



Actions are happening within and without us, all around, thru-out CREATION. Creation is an ever engaging inter-activity of matter, mind, energy, spirit. Science measures and observes the realm of cause/effect in nature,...but on the inner/metaphysical and invisible dimension of existence,....the same law holds but acting on the subjective level of 'experience'. Can you quantify 'energy', 'consciousness' or 'spirit'? Can you quantify 'God'? :idunno: - if your using this kind of logic to prove or disprove something such as invisible universal laws, then you could just as well deny all psychic/spiritual laws and even 'God' Himself....since he is not 'visible' or apparently 'quantifiable' :rolleyes:



As a theosophist, I simply acknowledge a universal law of nature, that actions exist and arise spontaneously, and that these actions have effects. Its that simple at the heart of it, but more complex as we consider how karma is operating in the whole of Nature, in its many different ways, on various levels of existence thru-out space and time.



As well as logical and reasonable on the meta-physical level and dimension of existence.




Since actions have their consequences inherent within them, the 'harvesting' of such seeds sown can happen within any given point of time, within the spectrum that such a law allows, but the 'reaping' of what is sown will occur. Time is only a relative measure of what appears to be 'delay' until the harvest is reaped. This should allow you a more liberal observation of what is called 'judgment' or some 'judgment' day.....since the universe thru 'karma' takes care of all measures and balances of justice, and is the means by which all souls also learn, progress and advance along the path towards perfection.



Lets re-iterate that to say, that yes.....all actions will have their consequences. This holds as long as you are a conscious being and can think, speak or act (remember,....karma is action). All actions have their own judgment within themselves and the rewards or penalties "built-in". This is the case whether one conceives of the law or 'Deity' as 'impersonal', or if one has a concept of an anthropomorphic 'God' on a throne meting out 'judgment',...the effect of the law of God or Nature...still carries out. The 'Light' or the 'Christ' weighs and judges all by their 'works'(karma). Hopefully we are getting a better understanding of what 'karma' is.


I know what karma is it is a lie from Satan.

freelight
April 24th, 2016, 05:01 PM
I know what karma is it is a lie from Satan.

Yet actions and their consequences, the whole flow of cause/effect sequences continues on, as the law of 'sowing' and 'reaping'.....seedtime and harvest. 'Satan' has nothing to do with it.

Crucible
April 26th, 2016, 09:21 PM
'You reap what you sow' is the closest Christian concept to karma.

freelight
May 16th, 2016, 10:29 PM
'You reap what you sow' is the closest Christian concept to karma.

Its all 'karma' = 'action and consequence', ...the very movement of creation is a karmic inter-change of action/re-action. Its effects are individual and universal as far as relativity is concerned. The idea or concept is innate within nature and man's own conscience, as that which is a true law, since 'cause & effect' is integral to all activity in space-time, insofar as actions have their following and associated consequences and set into motion new factors that determine conditions and outcomes. This goes on indefinitely as long as there are any choices or actions being made.

TulipBee
May 17th, 2016, 07:35 AM
'You reap what you sow' is the closest Christian concept to karma.
Everyone sows

way 2 go
May 17th, 2016, 07:03 PM
'You reap what you sow' is the closest Christian concept to karma.

karma is an undefined lie

is justice everywhere :nono:

is injustice rampant yes

can Jesus Christ death on the cross pay for your
sins according to karma :nono:

belief in karma leads to hell

freelight
November 13th, 2016, 05:46 PM
karma is an undefined lie

is justice everywhere :nono:

is injustice rampant yes

can Jesus Christ death on the cross pay for your
sins according to karma :nono:

belief in karma leads to hell

Karma is a fact of life, since all actions affect or influence all corresponding actions (cause/effect; sequence/consequence). All are judged "according to their karma (deeds/actions)" as it's phrased in scripture. No matter how one interprets the atonement of Christ on the cross, this does not negate self-responsibility for one's sins, as the measure of atonement is still determined by repentance, recompense and restitution.

Besides the grace of God which sustains all, one must atone for his own sins as much as is in his power to do so. Such is the karma that corrects and restores one back into right relationship....right-doing.

An insightful Buddhist perspective -


https://m.youtube.com/?reload=7&rdm=2amgtl6qa#/watch?v=HwmXCut1b44

way 2 go
November 13th, 2016, 08:51 PM
Karma is a fact of life,since all actions affect or influence all corresponding actions (cause/effect; sequence/consequence).
:wave:hi freelight


is justice everywhere ?
do children get cancer ?

karma needs past lives which the bible says no to.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,



All are judged "according to their karma (deeds/actions)" as it's phrased in scripture.
you are judged for your sin
Joh 9:41 Jesus said to them, If you were blind, you would have no sin. But now you say, We see. Therefore your sin remains.

and your righteousness is worthless
Isa_64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;




No matter how one interprets the atonement of Christ on the cross, this does not negate self-responsibility for one's sins, as the measure of atonement is still determined by repentance, recompense and restitution.

nope

for Christians it is of faith, that it might be by grace

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,



Besides the grace of God which sustains all, one must atone for his own sins as much as is in his power to do so. Such is the karma that corrects and restores one back into right relationship....right-doing.


nope,Christianity is not a 12 step program.

Rom 4:5 But to him not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

freelight
November 13th, 2016, 10:12 PM
:wave:hi freelight


is justice everywhere ?

do children get cancer ?

Every action has consequences which may appear sooner or later in time, modified by various factors which may condition results,....but still.....Every seed planted must produce its own harvest. Perhaps you need to study more on the concept of karma, understand it as a universal law. Enough material and commentary has so far been provided :)

A person gets sick for any number of causative reasons (factors), some which may be karmic in nature. The law of action/consequence (karma) still remains. "God is not mocked, whatever a man shows, that also will he reap" (measure for measure).



karma needs past lives which the bible says no to.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,


Heb 9:27 does NOT disprove reincarnation.

See here (http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-research-center.htm).



you are judged for your sin
Joh 9:41 Jesus said to them, If you were blind, you would have no sin. But now you say, We see. Therefore your sin remains.

Sin produces death, of course....since its a transgression of law, a missing the mark of true love or life. If you transgress a natural or spiritual law, you suffer.



nope

for Christians it is of faith, that it might be by grace

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,and your righteousness is worthless

Still, what you sow is what you reap. "And they were judged according to their works (karma)". Faith has its place,....This does not abrogate the law of karma. Love stills calls for us to live according to its law, to do right.



nope,Christianity is not a 12 step program.

Rom 4:5 But to him not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

No 12 step program was mentioned, but in the universal court of actions...you are still subject to the conditioning (judgment) of karma. As long as actions have their effects...the law of karma is in force.

Here is a Hindu perspective -


https://m.youtube.com/?#/watch?v=TgWt8r26NjY

Zeke
December 7th, 2016, 09:29 AM
:wave:hi freelight


is justice everywhere ?
do children get cancer ?

karma needs past lives which the bible says no to.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment,



you are judged for your sin
Joh 9:41 Jesus said to them, If you were blind, you would have no sin. But now you say, We see. Therefore your sin remains.

and your righteousness is worthless
Isa_64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags;



nope

for Christians it is of faith, that it might be by grace

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,


nope,Christianity is not a 12 step program.

Rom 4:5 But to him not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Certainly we die as a seed falling from heaven John 12:24, the physical death you think is the context of death in the scripture is perverted, Luke 15:35 which is Divine Amnesia a state of death to who and where we came from.

Zeke
December 7th, 2016, 09:33 AM
On children getting cancer and so on is a role they chose to come here and fulfill for the contrast/play between good and evil, which is played out by the Divine conscience in all of us no matter our state its all being played out by the Divine, the good bad and the ugly.

freelight
December 8th, 2016, 11:43 PM
On children getting cancer and so on is a role they chose to come here and fulfill for the contrast/play between good and evil, which is played out by the Divine conscience in all of us no matter our state its all being played out by the Divine, the good bad and the ugly.

This is a very interesting subject, since it appears the possibility of some souls being born into a certain condition may be because of sins committed in former life experiences or perhaps as you suggest, some souls may come into life born into certain conditions by their own choice, or by some 'soul-contract' to undergo some kind of experiential struggle that may foster the learning of certain special lessons most important for that soul in its spiritual learning and its own evolution. It is apparent our being born into this material world is being born into all the frailties and imperfections of matter, where the potential for all that is imperfect exists with the perfect in the paradox of duality, where the full spectrum of both good and evil can be experienced. If every incarnated life is a 'school' in the denser realm of matter, perhaps some lessons cannot be learned any other way except being acted out or resolved "in the flesh" so to speak.

In any case,...in religious studies, we cannot separate 'karma' from 'reincarnation' since they are intrinsically intertwined, since ALL actions ever committed, in this world or any other world (at any point in space or time) have consequential effects... so goes the universal law of sowing and reaping. This law must continue as long as sowing in any form continues...unless by some act of grace or transcendence, one can rise above the duality of cause/effect...and maintain an ever sustaining condition of immortality, or purified divine nature where sin and any propensity towards sin is wholly eradicated. Until then,...its back on the wheel of karma.

Grosnick Marowbe
December 8th, 2016, 11:46 PM
Freelight, looks like they don't want your "Putridness" in the Chatbox.

Grosnick Marowbe
December 8th, 2016, 11:47 PM
On children getting cancer and so on is a role they chose to come here and fulfill for the contrast/play between good and evil, which is played out by the Divine conscience in all of us no matter our state its all being played out by the Divine, the good bad and the ugly.

Go ahead, make my day!

Grosnick Marowbe
December 8th, 2016, 11:50 PM
Hey, Freelight, what do your little green men in their UFOs think about Karma?

freelight
February 28th, 2017, 03:08 AM
~*~*~

Continuing research and contemplation on the concept of 'karma' with a lecture-snippet from Alan Watts. Enjoy the insights -


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FScV-0bbZHQ

Expanding on Buddhist concepts of 'inter-dependent origination' is also helpful in expanding the greater context in which things 'relate' to one another, stretching the 'context' even further from a more purely dualistic assumption of 'cause & effect', seeing everything as continuous whole of inter-acting movements.

Inter-dependent origination (http://www.buddhistdoor.com/OldWeb/bdoor/archive/nutshell/teach9.htm).

25387

God's Truth
February 28th, 2017, 12:37 PM
Simple Definition of karma

: the force created by a person's actions that is believed in Hinduism and Buddhism to determine what that person's next life will be like

: the force created by a person's actions that some people believe causes good or bad things to happen to that person

karma
kill a person -1 fornicate and have a child +1 = even


Christianity

Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,


Christians receive heaven which is gift we can not earn
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Karma is anti Christ.

freelight
February 28th, 2017, 06:50 PM
Karma is anti Christ.

You apparently did not read the entire thread and have a misconstrued understanding of 'karma'. I suggest a proper education before making a false assessment.

way 2 go
February 28th, 2017, 09:34 PM
Karma is anti Christ.
yes.

a little truth mixed with lies

way 2 go
February 28th, 2017, 09:35 PM
You apparently did not read the entire thread and have a misconstrued understanding of 'karma'. I suggest a proper education before making a false assessment.

karma does not blend with Christianity

God's Truth
March 1st, 2017, 09:45 AM
yes.

a little truth mixed with lies

Exactly. So glad to here this.

God's Truth
March 1st, 2017, 09:46 AM
You apparently did not read the entire thread and have a misconstrued understanding of 'karma'. I suggest a proper education before making a false assessment.

You are falsely judging me on the hopes that what you believe that is based on falseness is not understood.

freelight
March 9th, 2017, 02:46 PM
You are falsely judging me on the hopes that what you believe that is based on falseness is not understood.

Not really, just saying that your understanding of 'karma' could use some further educating and enlightening upon, especially from a universal perspective understanding the eastern and western religious traditions and their dissertations upon it. The Hindu, Jainist, Buddhist traditions and their philosophers have some wonderful insights, and some schools differ on how they explain or correlate the principle, BUT 'karma' as meaning 'action and consequence'...includes the whole process and dynamic of cause/effect relationships, how actions or movements affect or bring into consequence other movements in their reactive patterns and cycles. Again, 'karma' is a universal law, so to speak,....all actions affect corresponding actions, and SO ON. - what a man sows, that also he reaps,...so as long as their is activity,...there is karma. Henceforth, all souls are judged or their situation is conditioned "by their works". When a soul can balance, alleviate or atone for all negative karma, tip the scales, or transcend karma altogether thru union with God and spiritual purification, that sphere of unity with Spirit is 'heaven'.

freelight
March 9th, 2017, 04:22 PM
karma does not blend with Christianity

Actions and their corresponding effects are universal in nature, and recognized by most all religious traditions, schools of science and personal human experience. If you plant pumpkin seeds, what do those particular seeds produce? ;)

meshak
March 9th, 2017, 04:27 PM
Actions and their corresponding effects are universal in nature, and recognized by most all religious traditions, schools of science and personal human experience. If you plant pumpkin seeds, what do those particular seeds produce? ;)

It seems that you are saying "We reap what we sow" is not originated from Bible.

Am I right?

freelight
March 9th, 2017, 04:37 PM
It seems that you are saying "We reap what we sow" is not originated from Bible.

Am I right?

I'm simply saying the universal law of karma is recognized by most all religious traditions, since its a fact of life that we see that actions have consequences. There are different aspects about karma that are explained or described in different ways in each religious tradition. Paul simply recognized the law, and said "God (divine law) is not mocked, what a man sows that also shall he reap". He recognized that sowing to the flesh or the spirit will bring corresponding results, since a tree is known by its fruit.

meshak
March 9th, 2017, 07:11 PM
I'm simply saying the universal law of karma is recognized by most all religious traditions,

I believe they all got the idea from Hebrew God.

way 2 go
March 9th, 2017, 10:44 PM
Actions and their corresponding effects are universal in nature, and recognized by most all religious traditions, schools of science and personal human experience. If you plant pumpkin seeds, what do those particular seeds produce? ;)
all of your good works will not get you to heaven .

Isa 64:6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.

only through faith in Jesus Christ are you justified by his grace as a gift

Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

Christianity is not like any other religion , karma is a lie, it is about self righteousness.

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

freelight
March 10th, 2017, 03:35 AM
all of your good works will not get you to heaven .

That particular subject is not the main focus here,...but the principle of karma, the law of sowing & reaping, cause & effect, action and consequence, compensation, balance. Readers can access our previous dialogue and gain more insight here.


Isa 64:6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.

only through faith in Jesus Christ are you justified by his grace as a gift

Gen 15:6 And he believed the LORD, and he counted it to him as righteousness.

That's a particular concept put forward.



Christianity is not like any other religion , karma is a lie, it is about self righteousness.

Karma is NOT about what your assuming it is, by presuming things. Karma is a universal principle or law of nature, referring to the cause, course, sequence of actions as it relates to or affects following actions or effects. There is no religious concept of 'self-righteousness' or 'imputed righteousness' involved. However,...as Paul says...'God (divine law) is not mocked, whatever is sown shall be reaped'. This observation of natural law is universal thru-out nature. As long as there is any action, there is by definition and movement 'karma', and this inter-relates and affects all successive and corresponding actions.

The Buddhist concept of 'dependent origination' (Pratītyasamutpāda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prat%C4%ABtyasamutp%C4%81da)) expands on this as all actions are inter-depedent on preceding actions, and all karma is therefore conditional. - all actions are related.


Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”
Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Faith has its place as a substance or force within the greater cosmic play of course :) - therefore grace and faith do have their causal affections, so to speak. Everything still unfolds and is determined by a cooperative process of inter-related choices and actions.

God's Truth
March 10th, 2017, 11:36 AM
Not really, just saying that your understanding of 'karma' could use some further educating and enlightening upon, especially from a universal perspective understanding the eastern and western religious traditions and their dissertations upon it. The Hindu, Jainist, Buddhist traditions and their philosophers have some wonderful insights, and some schools differ on how they explain or correlate the principle, BUT 'karma' as meaning 'action and consequence'...includes the whole process and dynamic of cause/effect relationships, how actions or movements affect or bring into consequence other movements in their reactive patterns and cycles. Again, 'karma' is a universal law, so to speak,....all actions affect corresponding actions, and SO ON. - what a man sows, that also he reaps,...so as long as their is activity,...there is karma. Henceforth, all souls are judged or their situation is conditioned "by their works". When a soul can balance, alleviate or atone for all negative karma, tip the scales, or transcend karma altogether thru union with God and spiritual purification, that sphere of unity with Spirit is 'heaven'.

Karma is evil. The Holy Bible does not teach karma. Karma says that a person born mentally and or physically disabled means they were an evil person in a former life and are getting what they deserve.

You are evil to preach such a religion.

freelight
March 10th, 2017, 07:51 PM
Karma is evil. The Holy Bible does not teach karma. Karma says that a person born mentally and or physically disabled means they were an evil person in a former life and are getting what they deserve.

You are evil to preach such a religion.

See here (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?122468-Free-Will&p=4953969&viewfull=1#post4953969) :)

God's Truth
March 10th, 2017, 08:07 PM
See here (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?122468-Free-Will&p=4953969&viewfull=1#post4953969) :)

No, I do not want to read an article.

I know what karma teaches.

If you think you can change the meaning of karma as you do the words in the Bible then it is all fake what you say and not accurate information.

Nihilo
March 10th, 2017, 09:34 PM
Matthew 6:19-21 (KJV)
"Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

freelight
March 11th, 2017, 03:05 AM
No, I do not want to read an article.

I know what karma teaches.

If you think you can change the meaning of karma as you do the words in the Bible then it is all fake what you say and not accurate information.

Not an article dear,

A related and informative post in another thread, addressing the issue of salvation by grace, and how that karma still factors into everything, as long as there is action of any kind. Action, sequence, consequence. Its a matter of considering and contemplating the metaphysics involved in any activity, since any action has karmic effects by nature, - all movements of thought, energy, words, intentions, physical motions....engender or foster consequential actions, and so on. - its a law of nature, you cant get around it, no matter what kind of 'theoritical salvation' or concept of 'theology' you choose to believe in. Therefore you have to factor in, the law of karma and how it fits into your 'theology'. This would include learning more about what it entails, from different religious traditions and schools who have scholars and theologians who have studied many years these subjects, and then verified them by personal human experience. There's always more to learn.

God's Truth
March 11th, 2017, 03:41 AM
Matthew 6:19-21 (KJV)
"Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: 20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

The only way we can lay up treasures in heaven is by obeying Jesus' powerful words.

Catholics do NOT obey Jesus.

Catholics do what God hates.

God's Truth
March 11th, 2017, 03:47 AM
Not an article dear,

A related and informative post in another thread, addressing the issue of salvation by grace, and how that karma still factors into everything, as long as there is action of any kind. Action, sequence, consequence. Its a matter of considering and contemplating the metaphysics involved in any activity, since any action has karmic effects by nature, - all movements of thought, energy, words, intentions, physical motions....engender or foster consequential actions, and so on. - its a law of nature, you cant get around it, no matter what kind of 'theoritical salvation' or concept of 'theology' you choose to believe in. Therefore you have to factor in, the law of karma and how it fits into your 'theology'. This would include learning more about what it entails, from different religious traditions and schools who have scholars and theologians who have studied many years these subjects, and then verified them by personal human experience. There's always more to learn.

Why do you ignore the things that I say? How do you ever get that ignoring what I say is some kind of superior peace?

'Karma' is not to be mixed in with God's Truth.

The word 'karma' is from one of your false gods, who, according to God, are demons.

We reap what we sow means if you are sinful on this earth, when you die you will reap eternal punishment; or you do right you will reap eternal life.

That is NOT what 'karma' means. Karma means that if a baby is born with a mental disability, such as retardation, or autism, or any mental illness...then that person was an evil person in their former life, and that they are now getting what they deserve in this life.

According to those who believe in karma, it is a joyful moment to see someone suffer in such a way, because they are getting what they deserve, and you are then privileged in life to see such a child or adult suffer.

You claim a doctrine of demons as your form of knowledge. You preach evil, just like those who reject Christ.

TulipBee
March 11th, 2017, 06:50 AM
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17264420_10208721736022481_2033340044134861305_n.j pg?oh=3e16703843561590b717b14bf556129b&oe=596B1856

God's Truth
March 11th, 2017, 11:18 AM
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17264420_10208721736022481_2033340044134861305_n.j pg?oh=3e16703843561590b717b14bf556129b&oe=596B1856

That is true.

Remember to tell us where it says God says unbelievers.

Tell us to where it says no one can hear and believe and obey ANYTHING before being saved.

freelight
March 11th, 2017, 04:55 PM
Why do you ignore the things that I say? How do you ever get that ignoring what I say is some kind of superior peace?

'Karma' is not to be mixed in with God's Truth.

The word 'karma' is from one of your false gods, who, according to God, are demons.

We reap what we sow means if you are sinful on this earth, when you die you will reap eternal punishment; or you do right you will reap eternal life.

That is NOT what 'karma' means. Karma means that if a baby is born with a mental disability, such as retardation, or autism, or any mental illness...then that person was an evil person in their former life, and that they are now getting what they deserve in this life.

According to those who believe in karma, it is a joyful moment to see someone suffer in such a way, because they are getting what they deserve, and you are then privileged in life to see such a child or adult suffer.

You claim a doctrine of demons as your form of knowledge. You preach evil, just like those who reject Christ.

Your assumption on what karma means to include is not necessarily believed by every school,...since there may be effects that are not wholly discernible to any near or immediate causal actions, so you cannot just assume those born retarded or with disabilities or disformed are suffering a self-imposed condition, - it just so happens that the parents could have sinned in some way, to effect the birth of their child, and other factors may play in, also whether a soul chooses some conditions to be born into for some experiential or mediative purpose. There are some 'unknowns' in the phenomena of conditional existence, but the principle of karma appears to be inherently woven into the tapestry of life, since all actions are affectually related.

We've covered here so far a study of understanding the law of karma in its universal scope and application, which does include particular actions, of course. However, in the greater matrix of co-creative movements and free will choices, the law of compensation (http://www.divinelovedivinetruth.org/law_of_compensation) holds, all is inter-related, in various cause/effect associations, - this is an observation of nature, which is why humans recognize it and describe it in various ways in their schools of religion, science and philosophy. If you close yourself from learning or researching more about the subject, your choose wilfill ignorance on the matter when you can be further enlightened. That is your choice,...but don't complain about from suffering from such ignorance.

May share some more insights on the subject from Buddhist and Jainist views soon :)

Don't forget,...'God' (divine law) cannot be mocked,...what is sown is that which is reaped. A law is a law, unless a movement extends beyond or transcends such law. The link above (law of compensation) gives perhaps a closer view of 'karma' to your more traditional concept, biblically contexted, from the spirit world ;)

You are entertaining demons in your own mind, I can assure you...no demoms are involved in our study of the subject :)

freelight
March 11th, 2017, 05:09 PM
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17264420_10208721736022481_2033340044134861305_n.j pg?oh=3e16703843561590b717b14bf556129b&oe=596B1856

Completely false, ignorant and presumptuous. You cant put 'God' in a box.

Nihilo
March 12th, 2017, 06:31 PM
The only way we can lay up treasures in heaven is by obeying Jesus' powerful words.

Catholics do NOT obey Jesus.

Catholics do what God hates.I hate you GT. And I'm not even Catholic.

God's Truth
March 12th, 2017, 06:36 PM
I hate you GT. And I'm not even Catholic.

According to God, you are as a murderer.

Nihilo
March 12th, 2017, 06:48 PM
According to God, you are as a murderer.And that's why I hate you, and that's why everybody hates you, because you're setting us all up as a devilish trap. What kind of demon does that to people who are in this world doing the absolutely best we can, to be ambushed like this, by you, by eternal fools like you, who are out to prove that everybody's capable of sin. Everybody's capable of sin, you enormous jerk. Everybody can be tricked, conned, connived, mislead into sin. Everybody. Congrats for proving that, you immense moron. Censored. Censored, GT. You're a jerk.

God's Truth
March 12th, 2017, 09:11 PM
And that's why I hate you, and that's why everybody hates you, because you're setting us all up as a devilish trap.

God says that if you hate then you are as a murderer, and you call it a trap that I tell you what God says.

You say everybody hates me. Maybe no one then loves anyone here then. If you can't love me, a person who is full of love, then who can you love?



What kind of demon does that to people who are in this world doing the absolutely best we can, to be ambushed like this, by you, by eternal fools like you,

You are endanger of hell fire. Don't you care what God says? How do you ever get that I ambush anyone? We are all on this site discussing the Bible and our beliefs.



who are out to prove that everybody's capable of sin. Everybody's capable of sin, you enormous jerk. Everybody can be tricked, conned, connived, mislead into sin. Everybody. Congrats for proving that, you immense moron. Censored. Censored, GT. You're a jerk.

If you sin, you can repent and be forgiven. As for you saying people can be tricked into sinning, the Bible warns us to watch out for Satan roams around like a lion ready to devour someone.

God's Truth
March 12th, 2017, 09:17 PM
Your assumption on what karma means to include is not necessarily believed by every school,...since there may be effects that are not wholly discernible to any near or immediate causal actions, so you cannot just assume those born retarded or with disabilities or disformed are suffering a self-imposed condition, - it just so happens that the parents could have sinned in some way, to effect the birth of their child, and other factors may play in, also whether a soul chooses some conditions to be born into for some experiential or mediative purpose. There are some 'unknowns' in the phenomena of conditional existence, but the principle of karma appears to be inherently woven into the tapestry of life, since all actions are affectually related.

We've covered here so far a study of understanding the law of karma in its universal scope and application, which does include particular actions, of course. However, in the greater matrix of co-creative movements and free will choices, the law of compensation (http://www.divinelovedivinetruth.org/law_of_compensation) holds, all is inter-related, in various cause/effect associations, - this is an observation of nature, which is why humans recognize it and describe it in various ways in their schools of religion, science and philosophy. If you close yourself from learning or researching more about the subject, your choose wilfill ignorance on the matter when you can be further enlightened. That is your choice,...but don't complain about from suffering from such ignorance.

My share some more insights on the subject from Buddhist and Jainist views soon :)

Don't forget,...'God' (divine law) cannot be mocked,...what is sown is that which is reaped. A law is a law, unless a movement extends beyond or transcends such law. The link above (law of compensation) gives perhaps a closer view of 'karma' to your more traditional concept, biblically contexted, from the spirit world ;)

You are entertaining demons in your own mind, I can assure you...no demoms are involved in our study of the subject :)

Just as you throw away some of God's words so that you can make a god of your own liking, so do you do that with karma.

You sin against God when you go to other gods, which the Bible says are demons.

You also try to change karma into a non offensive doctrine of demons.

TulipBee
March 13th, 2017, 08:04 AM
And as it is appointed unto man once to die, But after this the judgement:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look
for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
(Hebrews 9:27-28)

Because He hath appointed a day, in unto the which He will judge the
world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained: whereof He
hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead.
(Acts 17:31)

God's Truth
March 13th, 2017, 08:25 AM
And as it is appointed unto man once to die, But after this the judgement:
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look
for Him shall He appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
(Hebrews 9:27-28)

Because He hath appointed a day, in unto the which He will judge the
world in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained: whereof He
hath given assurance unto all men, in that He hath raised Him from the dead.
(Acts 17:31)

What is your point?

We have to do more than 'look'.

We have to believe and obey.

The people who were bit by snakes and looked to the bronze snake, they still DIED IN THE DESERT and did NOT see the promised land, because they did NOT obey.

No one is saved before they believe and obey.

Give up your false teachings for God's Truth.

Numbers 14:22 not one of those who saw my glory and the signs I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times--

1 Corinthians 10:5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the wilderness.

Hebrews 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

1 Corinthians 10:7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry."

TulipBee
March 13th, 2017, 09:22 AM
What is your point?

We have to do more than 'look'.

We have to believe and obey.

The people who were bit by snakes and looked to the bronze snake, they still DIED IN THE DESERT and did NOT see the promised land, because they did NOT obey.

No one is saved before they believe and obey.

Give up your false teachings for God's Truth.

Numbers 14:22 not one of those who saw my glory and the signs I performed in Egypt and in the wilderness but who disobeyed me and tested me ten times--

1 Corinthians 10:5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the wilderness.

Hebrews 3:17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

1 Corinthians 10:7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry."
Funny how you made points not related to my post at all.

Nihilo
March 13th, 2017, 10:02 AM
God says that if you hate then you are as a murderer, and you call it a trap that I tell you what God says.No, you set the trap for people to hate you, because you are hateful and do hateful things to other people, thinking not about what others are experiencing in their lives. You are hateful, which tempts everybody to hate you. That's what acting hateful does to us, it tempts us to hate you. Whenever we don't return like-for-like, whenever we withhold, whenever we hold our tongue, whenever we do not strike back, as you deserve, we are granting you a temporal indulgence. We who love you grant you indulgences. Sometimes however we just aren't perfect and one of us steps out of line because the temptation is too strong and we are too weak, and we hate you, as you deserve to be hated, because you are hateful and treat people hatefully. And then you do the most hateful thing possible as drawing me into your enticing trap and you dare to point your hateful finger at me! You censored!

You say everybody hates me. Maybe no one then loves anyone here then. If you can't love me, a person who is full of love, then who can you love?You're a user account, I know nothing about you as an individual, if you are an individual and not two or more people directing your user account. I don't know if you are only one user account, or if you're not also one or two other user accounts also. I hate you, GT, the GT user account. May your user account burn in hell forever. Go to hell GT. Go to hell.

You are endanger of hell fire. Don't you care what God says?What an abusive pile of steaming feces you are GT.

How do you ever get that I ambush anyone? We are all on this site discussing the Bible and our beliefs.That's not what you're doing.

If you sin, you can repent and be forgiven.Duh.

As for you saying people can be tricked into sinning, the Bible warns us to watch out for Satan roams around like a lion ready to devour someone.Then the Bible warns us to watch out for you, GT. You roam around like a lion ready to devour someone, I am only a case in point.

God's Truth
March 13th, 2017, 12:20 PM
Funny how you made points not related to my post at all.

Funny how you did that.

God's Truth
March 13th, 2017, 12:21 PM
No, you set the trap for people to hate you, because you are hateful and do hateful things to other people, thinking not about what others are experiencing in their lives. You are hateful, which tempts everybody to hate you. That's what acting hateful does to us, it tempts us to hate you. Whenever we don't return like-for-like, whenever we withhold, whenever we hold our tongue, whenever we do not strike back, as you deserve, we are granting you a temporal indulgence. We who love you grant you indulgences. Sometimes however we just aren't perfect and one of us steps out of line because the temptation is too strong and we are too weak, and we hate you, as you deserve to be hated, because you are hateful and treat people hatefully. And then you do the most hateful thing possible as drawing me into your enticing trap and you dare to point your hateful finger at me! You censored!
You're a user account, I know nothing about you as an individual, if you are an individual and not two or more people directing your user account. I don't know if you are only one user account, or if you're not also one or two other user accounts also. I hate you, GT, the GT user account. May your user account burn in hell forever. Go to hell GT. Go to hell.
What an abusive pile of steaming feces you are GT.
That's not what you're doing.
Duh.
Then the Bible warns us to watch out for you, GT. You roam around like a lion ready to devour someone, I am only a case in point.

You definitely need help.

Humble yourself and repent.

Nihilo
March 13th, 2017, 12:23 PM
You definitely need help.

Humble yourself and repent.Well whadyaknow, I got you to shut up.

God's Truth
March 13th, 2017, 02:32 PM
Well whadyaknow, I got you to shut up.

You are a severely troubled person.

Why not stop hardening your heart and being on the defensive?

Why not do what Jesus says and humble yourself?

freelight
March 13th, 2017, 03:39 PM
25449

Lets keep the karma (thoughts, intents, actions) here positive please. Remember, every thought, intent and action will naturally engender consequential re-actions. Knowing this, let love and wisdom guide our discussions. Thank You :)

James Dalton
March 13th, 2017, 03:45 PM
Simple Definition of karma

: the force created by a person's actions that is believed in Hinduism and Buddhism to determine what that person's next life will be like

: the force created by a person's actions that some people believe causes good or bad things to happen to that person

karma
kill a person -1 fornicate and have a child +1 = even


Christianity

Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,


Christians receive heaven which is gift we can not earn
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

I see your direction here, but you may be a bit hasty. God's forgiveness of the Goddless is the ultimate example of God trading his perfect Karma for our bad karma. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you... Jesus mastering karma for us. Spiritual sight? Jesus taught it better than anyone else. Third sight was a heavy focus of Christ. To say Karma isn't spoken of in Christianity is to miss the mark.

Jesus even identifies Love as the mark of his sheep. This is a Karma statement. A true student of Karma knows that it is more blessed to give than to receive. Jesus statement.

James Dalton
March 13th, 2017, 03:47 PM
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17264420_10208721736022481_2033340044134861305_n.j pg?oh=3e16703843561590b717b14bf556129b&oe=596B1856

I hope that your name isn't about a system that is built outside of scriptures. You kind of said too much here. Just a note of observation.

James Dalton
March 13th, 2017, 03:50 PM
And that's why I hate you, and that's why everybody hates you, because you're setting us all up as a devilish trap. What kind of demon does that to people who are in this world doing the absolutely best we can, to be ambushed like this, by you, by eternal fools like you, who are out to prove that everybody's capable of sin. Everybody's capable of sin, you enormous jerk. Everybody can be tricked, conned, connived, mislead into sin. Everybody. Congrats for proving that, you immense moron. Censored. Censored, GT. You're a jerk.

There's a verse in 1 John 4:8 that makes your post seem like a bad idea. Just an observation.

James Dalton
March 13th, 2017, 03:51 PM
1 John 4:20 is damning

1Mind1Spirit
March 13th, 2017, 04:08 PM
You are a severely troubled person.

Why not stop hardening your heart and being on the defensive?

Why not do what Jesus says and humble yourself?

Pot, kettle.

1Mind1Spirit
March 13th, 2017, 04:12 PM
25449

Lets keep the karma (thoughts, intents, actions) here positive please. Remember, every thought, intent and action will naturally engender consequential re-actions. Knowing this, let love and wisdom guide our discussions. Thank You :)

Nice flower.

But I'm hauling hay today 2 mile round trip in an open cab side by side.

Through 30 mile an hour north wind carryin' sleet and mist.

4 bales atta time.

Thank God for gloves, hoodies and Crown Royal whiskey.

:)

God's Truth
March 13th, 2017, 04:17 PM
Pot, kettle.

You sure are.

God's Truth
March 13th, 2017, 04:19 PM
25449

Lets keep the karma (thoughts, intents, actions) here positive please. Remember, every thought, intent and action will naturally engender consequential re-actions. Knowing this, let love and wisdom guide our discussions. Thank You :)

Karma is a teaching from demons.

1Mind1Spirit
March 13th, 2017, 04:21 PM
You sure are.

That's generally my first inclination.

James Dalton
March 13th, 2017, 04:21 PM
Karma is a teaching from demons.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Sound familiar?

1Mind1Spirit
March 13th, 2017, 04:22 PM
Karma is a teaching from demons.

It can be.;)

God's Truth
March 13th, 2017, 04:23 PM
I see your direction here, but you may be a bit hasty. God's forgiveness of the Goddless is the ultimate example of God trading his perfect Karma for our bad karma. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you... Jesus mastering karma for us. Spiritual sight? Jesus taught it better than anyone else. Third sight was a heavy focus of Christ. To say Karma isn't spoken of in Christianity is to miss the mark.

Jesus even identifies Love as the mark of his sheep. This is a Karma statement. A true student of Karma knows that it is more blessed to give than to receive. Jesus statement.

Karma is a doctrine of demons. Just ask for the scriptures if you don't know where there are.

God did not trade His karma for our bad karma.

You speak things that are not from God.

God's Truth
March 13th, 2017, 04:24 PM
It can be.;)

I am going by the scriptures, not by your opinions.

James Dalton
March 13th, 2017, 04:24 PM
Karma is a doctrine of demons. Just ask for the scriptures if you don't know where there are.

God did not trade His karma for our bad karma.

You speak things that are not from God.

Is the person speaking in Luke 6:31 a demon?

God's Truth
March 13th, 2017, 04:26 PM
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Sound familiar?

That is not karma. That is a teaching from God.

Don't mix God with demons.

Nihilo
March 13th, 2017, 04:27 PM
There's a verse in 1 John 4:8 that makes your post seem like a bad idea. Just an observation.


1 John 4:20 is damningHey, March 2017, there's a history here bud. But thanks for wheying in. Waying. Weighing. Wai---

1Mind1Spirit
March 13th, 2017, 04:27 PM
I am going by the scriptures, not by your opinions.

You mean your opinion of scripture.

James Dalton
March 13th, 2017, 04:28 PM
Karma is a doctrine of demons. Just ask for the scriptures if you don't know where there are.

God did not trade His karma for our bad karma.

You speak things that are not from God.

I understand your shock. But Luke 6:31 is only 1 example of many where Jesus eludes to deeper spiritual teachings. To become sin, yet have no sin to declare the sinner sinnless?

God's Truth
March 13th, 2017, 04:28 PM
Is the person speaking in Luke 6:31 a demon?

Where do you get that I said that, demon?

God's Truth
March 13th, 2017, 04:29 PM
I understand your shock.

Dream on.


But Luke 6:31 is only 1 example of many where Jesus eludes to deeper spiritual teachings. To become sin, yet have no sin to declare the sinner sinnless?

Did freelight, Nihilo, and or Caino resurrect you?

God's Truth
March 13th, 2017, 04:31 PM
You mean your opinion of scripture.

Just believe what is plainly written, if you did you would know better.

1Mind1Spirit
March 13th, 2017, 04:34 PM
Just believe what is plainly written, if you did you would know better.

If that's the case, why you talkin'?

1Mind1Spirit
March 13th, 2017, 04:39 PM
Dream on.


Did freelight, Nihilo, and or Caino resurrect you?

Back out into the cold warm up break is over.

Be back on later.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHRNSeuvzlM

James Dalton
March 13th, 2017, 04:43 PM
Dream on.


Did freelight, Nihilo, and or Caino resurrect you?

???

God's Truth
March 13th, 2017, 04:53 PM
If that's the case, why you talkin'?

Don't worry about it.

God's Truth
March 13th, 2017, 04:55 PM
???

Karma is a teaching Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, and Taoism.

It is not the teaching of God.

Nowhere in the Bible is karma spoken of.

freelight
March 13th, 2017, 05:00 PM
Nice flower.

Thanks, but what I shared underneath the flower is of PRIMARY SIGNIFICANCE. Consider that :)


But I'm hauling hay today 2 mile round trip in an open cab side by side.

Through 30 mile an hour north wind carryin' sleet and mist.

4 bales atta time.


Thank God for gloves, hoodies and Crown Royal whiskey.

:)

May all go well :)

Nihilo
March 13th, 2017, 05:05 PM
Nice flower.

But I'm hauling hay today 2 mile round trip in an open cab side by side.

Through 30 mile an hour north wind carryin' sleet and mist.

4 bales atta time.

Thank God for gloves, hoodies and Crown Royal whiskey.

:)I thank God for liquor of all kinds. :)

freelight
March 13th, 2017, 05:31 PM
Karma is a teaching Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, and Taoism.

Some religious traditions recognize or have a more emphasized commentary upon the subject of 'karma', yes,...but karma means 'action' which includes all cause/effect relationships, every movement in the realm of conditional existence is 'karma', since it is 'conditional'. Wherever their is 'action', there, is karma. You are not understanding 'karma' (in its greater comprehension), -what's been shared here already and learning what each religious tradition teaches about it, can enhance and augment your understanding of it, which would help in our discussion here. But if you choose to reject learning and just presume and ponitificate,...we cant get very far beyond circular reasoning.


It is not the teaching of God.

The law is not mocked, it cannot be abrogated or annulled. Whatsoever a man sows, that also he will reap. Such is a universal law, a conduct of nature, the way things work.



Nowhere in the Bible is karma spoken of.

Plenty of places, I just quoted Paul, if his word means anything. It just so happens that some men recognized the universal law, and then wrote about it. Its that such a law(truth) exists, that makes it so,...not just because it was written by someone and later put inside a 'religious book' that makes it true. Much is probably the reverse ;) - something for you to nibble on.

freelight
March 13th, 2017, 05:34 PM
I thank God for liquor of all kinds. :)

I would guess 'God' would prefer you to enjoy the new wine of His Spirit more :)

"be not drunk with wine as in excess, but be ye filled with the Spirit".......

way 2 go
March 13th, 2017, 05:59 PM
I see your direction here, but you may be a bit hasty. God's forgiveness of the Goddless is the ultimate example of God trading his perfect Karma for our bad karma.
karma says be good you can save yourself

Good works are worthless without Jesus
Isa 64:6 We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment.


Do unto others as you would have them do unto you... Jesus mastering karma for us. Spiritual sight?

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you will do nothing for you without Jesus

Joh 8:23 He said to them, “You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
Joh 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”


Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Jesus taught it better than anyone else. Third sight was a heavy focus of Christ. To say Karma isn't spoken of in Christianity is to miss the mark.
to say Jesus taught karma is a lie.




Jesus even identifies Love as the mark of his sheep. This is a Karma statement. A true student of Karma knows that it is more blessed to give than to receive. Jesus statement.

karma says saved by good works out weighing bad works, Jesus says by faith

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

freelight
March 13th, 2017, 06:29 PM
karma says be good you can save yourself


Mistaken understanding.

Correction: Every thought, intention and action that occurs, has its corresponding results, effects. This continues on, as long as thoughts, intentions and actions are affective and carried out. A challenge for some is how this fits into their theology. Obviously, some have unresolved tensions over it ;)

way 2 go
March 13th, 2017, 06:35 PM
The law is not mocked, it cannot be abrogated or annulled. Whatsoever a man sows, that also he will reap. Such is a universal law, a conduct of nature, the way things work.



you can't sow to the spirit as you are spiritually dead ,

Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

One sows and another reaps

Joh 4:36 Already the one who reaps is receiving wages and gathering fruit for eternal life, so that sower and reaper may rejoice together.
Joh 4:37 For here the saying holds true, ‘One sows and another reaps.’

freelight
March 13th, 2017, 06:42 PM
you can't sow to the spirit as you are spiritually dead ,

Gal 6:7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

One sows and another reaps

Joh 4:36 Already the one who reaps is receiving wages and gathering fruit for eternal life, so that sower and reaper may rejoice together.
Joh 4:37 For here the saying holds true, ‘One sows and another reaps.’

Your 'assumption' about my spiritual condition is noted, but my former commentary about 'karma' holds :)

way 2 go
March 13th, 2017, 06:49 PM
karma says be good you can save yourself


Mistaken understanding.

Correction: Every thought, intention and action that occurs, has its corresponding results, effects. This continues on, as long as thoughts, intentions and actions are affective and carried out. A challenge for some is how this fits into their theology. Obviously, some have unresolved tensions over it ;)

no mistake

Whatsoever a man sows, that also he will reap is not happening
in this life which is why karma invented reincarnation .

reincarnation is a really big lie telling people that they have
more chances to be good enough to save them selves .

Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment

way 2 go
March 13th, 2017, 07:16 PM
Your 'assumption' about my spiritual condition is noted,

not assuming , you are relying on your good karma to save you.


but my former commentary about 'karma' holds :)
karma is a path that leads to destruction

Mat 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

1Mind1Spirit
March 13th, 2017, 08:16 PM
not assuming , you are relying on your good karma to save you.


karma is a path that leads to destruction

Mat 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.


Phil 3
10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ6j32oApqc

1Mind1Spirit
March 13th, 2017, 08:19 PM
double post

TulipBee
March 13th, 2017, 09:53 PM
I hope that your name isn't about a system that is built outside of scriptures. You kind of said too much here. Just a note of observation.
Just a flower

God's Truth
March 14th, 2017, 12:01 AM
Some religious traditions recognize or have a more emphasized commentary upon the subject of 'karma', yes,...but karma means 'action' which includes all cause/effect relationships, every movement in the realm of conditional existence is 'karma', since it is 'conditional'. Wherever their is 'action', there, is karma. You are not understanding 'karma' (in its greater comprehension), -what's been shared here already and learning what each religious tradition teaches about it, can enhance and augment your understanding of it, which would help in our discussion here. But if you choose to reject learning and just presume and ponitificate,...we cant get very far beyond circular reasoning.



The law is not mocked, it cannot be abrogated or annulled. Whatsoever a man sows, that also he will reap. Such is a universal law, a conduct of nature, the way things work.



Plenty of places, I just quoted Paul, if his word means anything. It just so happens that some men recognized the universal law, and then wrote about it. Its that such a law(truth) exists, that makes it so,...not just because it was written by someone and later put inside a 'religious book' that makes it true. Much is probably the reverse ;) - something for you to nibble on.

Karma is a doctrine of demons. It is not in the Bible.

James Dalton
March 14th, 2017, 12:24 AM
Hey, March 2017, there's a history here bud. But thanks for wheying in. Waying. Weighing. Wai---

I didn't realize posts were dated and this was an old discussion.

Nihilo
March 14th, 2017, 12:39 AM
I didn't realize posts were dated and this was an old discussion.Uh-huh. Do you promise you've never operated any other user accounts here, ever? Do you promise that, or will you admit you're an old user with a new user account?

James Dalton
March 14th, 2017, 12:41 AM
not assuming , you are relying on your good karma to save you.


karma is a path that leads to destruction

Mat 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

I personally believe in salvation by faith in the lamb of God, alone. I also understand karma. To pretend the devil is under every rock makes an Omnipresent devil. I would say this glorifies wickedness, instead of defeats it. I collect every tid bit of information I can to help me Witness about Jesus as effectively as possible.

I find that people that are legalistic or narrow minded have ruined crops. I grasp any understanding I can to assist in conveying the gospel.

The Gospel?

There's a God. He Died in our place so He can Live in us and save us. I'm not God and Salvation is all from Him. My contribution was giving up my fight and trusting Jesus. I'll get a spiffy new body one day and no longer live in my current, dirty duds.

Karma? I still understand it and can utilize its concept in a positive way. David said that no matter where he was he was consumed by God. I gain from everything, because God is the inner explaintion for all that I see, hear and learn. God is so loud in my heart that a 15 minute episode of the three stooges could become a 2 hour sermon that rattles of my tongue.

But, that's just me and my best FRIEND.

freelight
March 14th, 2017, 12:56 AM
karma says be good you can save yourself



no mistake

I corrected you earlier on that assumption, and readers can read from the beginning here to see how the debate is going,... who has brought better more informed logical contributions and a more broad all-inclusive understanding of what 'karma' is, in its proper relational context.

Some may not see the forest for the trees ;)


Whatsoever a man sows, that also he will reap is not happening
in this life which is why karma invented reincarnation .

We do recognize the time factor in all karmic transactions, some seeds may sprout earlier than others, some causal actions have sooner or later effects,...this is logical, but this in no wise discounts or disproves in the reality of karma (actions and their consequences continue to inter-relate, unfold and effect other movements in the stream of creation). Karma does not 'invent' reincarnation although 'karma' and 'rebirth' is closely associated, since if rebirth of souls does occur, the karmic effects and soul's experience, past history will continue on to be resolved or worked out in a future time, in what ever body the soul has adopted. We would also note though, even without a theory of reincarnation as traditionally assumed (there are different kinds of reincarnation theories)....karma would STILL CONTINUE for all souls as they progress into the spirit-worlds or if they are resurrected to live on the 'new earth' :) - See: The Law of Compensation (http://www.divinelovedivinetruth.org/law_of_compensation).

* Karma would be modified or attenuated within a world or among a community of souls that is purified, perfected or immortalized, since their actions would be inspired or limited to their psychic state or spiritual constitution. So, a purified/perfected being,...could only do what it has the potential or possibility of doing. 'karma' then would be different according to the condition of the soul and its potential, within any given conditional or situational-context,...just an extra thing to consider.


reincarnation is a really big lie telling people that they have
more chances to be good enough to save them selves .

I approach Reincarnation more philosophically,....the soul is always trans-forming, no matter if you believe in a concept of physical reincarnation or not :) - the fact is...karma continues, ...remember,...'karma' means action/movement....and what movements previous actions precipitate. I've provided much to help facilitate what karma is, and how one can comprehend and contextualize it within their own theology, because no matter what you believe....'karma' is still factoring into the over-all equation of things.

ALSO,....Is not God's love long suffering, everlasting? - Does not his grace/mercy extend to man sufficient and ample amount of TIME for man to fulfill his purpose of being, to perfect himself, to be 'saved', 'restored', 'enlightened',....unfold his divine and human potential ? Of course,...even if there is a certain time-window of opportunity (a cutting off point existing), and life or death is finalized as an ultimate condition (some souls choosing life, others choosing eternal death)....LOVE ever affords all the space and time that is needed to give a soul its final choice.

In this long suffering period of divine love extended to souls,....LOVE would certainly provide space and time for souls to return to 'God'....and this COULD include providing whatever BODIES or life-experiences (lifetimes) a soul would NEED in order for it to gain experience, wisdom, learning, knowledge....to fulfill its purpose, learn its lessons and return Home to God, never to be return to a material existence again, the soul have EARNED its place in a higher purified world kin to God's kingdom,...closer to his celestial World, in the higher heavens.

No matter if you hold to physical re-embodiments, or souls going on to progress in the spirit-worlds after death, or a more traditional concept of 'resurrection'...'karma' still pertains and will be modified by certain factors both within the soul (its disposition/constitution) and its environment (factors that may influence without). Remember what we noted before.


Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed to men once to die, but after this the judgment

DO NOTE, this verse does NOT necessarily discount reincarnation, it is not an absolute statement, but is relative to the point of the writer saying Jesus death was 'once' for all time, just as for any 'given lifetime'(incarnation) there is one physical-death event. See it in context. See here (http://reluctant-messenger.com/reincarnation-Hebrews9-27.htm) :thumb:

freelight
March 14th, 2017, 01:02 AM
I didn't realize posts were dated and this was an old discussion.

I'm continuing to respond here, and have provided sufficiently already for those wanting to expand or research upon the topic of karma. I find it better sometimes to just add onto a former thread on a subject, instead of creating a new one. Efficiency has its perks. This keeps all within a given thread, saving some forum space as well. - its karma-wise ;) :crackup:

God's Truth
March 14th, 2017, 01:07 AM
I personally believe in salvation by faith in the lamb of God, alone. I also understand karma. To pretend the devil is under every rock makes an Omnipresent devil. I would say this glorifies wickedness, instead of defeats it. I collect every tid bit of information I can to help me Witness about Jesus as effectively as possible.

I find that people that are legalistic or narrow minded have ruined crops. I grasp any understanding I can to assist in conveying the gospel.

The Gospel?

There's a God. He Died in our place so He can Live in us and save us. I'm not God and Salvation is all from Him. My contribution was giving up my fight and trusting Jesus. I'll get a spiffy new body one day and no longer live in my current, dirty duds.

Karma? I still understand it and can utilize its concept in a positive way. David said that no matter where he was he was consumed by God. I gain from everything, because God is the inner explaintion for all that I see, hear and learn. God is so loud in my heart that a 15 minute episode of the three stooges could become a 2 hour sermon that rattles of my tongue.

But, that's just me and my best FRIEND.

There is no bad scripture.

Scripture says other gods are demons, and there are doctrines of demons.

freelight
March 14th, 2017, 01:15 AM
not assuming , you are relying on your good karma to save you.

Could you prove your charge? Or just admit its an 'assumption'. I'm expounding on the concept of karma, and how it may relate to one's theology, soteriology, eschatology, etc. Its a wonderful subject. I'm not writing any creeds or dogma.


karma is a path that leads to destruction

Not at all. Its a fact of conditional existence :) - as long as there is thought, intention and activity,...there is 'karma'. This is what 'karma' is. Your projecting your presuppositions and preconceptions.


Mat 7:13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many.

And do note, your very verse above is conditional upon one's choice, is it not? Whether you experience blessing or cursing, as God gives all the opportunity for life or death,...is based upon your choice. - what you choose, is part of your 'karma', and if you choose life, good, truth, wisdom, beauty, immortality, God's will....you reap the benefits :) - a choice for one's own good, a decision or movement towards 'God' is good karma and you reap or earn the REWARD.

God's Truth
March 14th, 2017, 09:54 AM
Could you prove your charge? Or just admit its an 'assumption'. I'm expounding on the concept of karma, and how it may relate to one's theology, soteriology, eschatology, etc. Its a wonderful subject. I'm not writing any creeds or dogma.



Not at all. Its a fact of conditional existence :) - as long as there is thought, intention and activity,...there is 'karma'. This is what 'karma' is. Your projecting your presuppositions and preconceptions.



And do note, your very verse above is conditional upon one's choice, is it not? Whether you experience blessing or cursing, as God gives all the opportunity for life or death,...is based upon your choice. - what you choose, is part of your 'karma', and if you choose life, good, truth, wisdom, beauty, immortality, God's will....you reap the benefits :) - a choice for one's own good, a decision or movement towards 'God' is good karma and you reap or earn the REWARD.

What don't you get that we do not go by doctrine of demons, no matter how close you think they sound to God's Truth?

Nihilo
March 14th, 2017, 10:17 AM
I would guess 'God' would prefer you to enjoy the new wine of His Spirit more :)

"be not drunk with wine as in excess, but be ye filled with the Spirit".......OK, but just so you know, me and 1Mind1Spirit will be drinking liquor too. :)

freelight
March 14th, 2017, 04:50 PM
OK, but just so you know, me and 1Mind1Spirit will be drinking liquor too. :)

No problem with it, in moderation and within reason and wisdom. Too many lives have been destroyed by alcoholism. Being mindful of this is rather prudent, don't you think?

freelight
March 14th, 2017, 04:58 PM
What don't you get that we do not go by doctrine of demons, no matter how close you think they sound to God's Truth?

YOU are the only one bringing 'demons' into the discussion which have no place in such a discussion. Its ridiculous. My former commentary on the subject stands awaiting further consideration, debate or elaboration. The very fact that souls are 'judged according to their works', is proof of karmic law, since all actions have consequenes. This isn't rocket science,...although within karmic inter-actions, some things might appear mysterious, or 'random' in the flow of things, but most everything has karmic markers and indications, since whatever seed is planted, determines the form and quality of the harvest produced. As I noted earlier,...'karma' will be modified or attenuated based on the condition and potentials of a soul based on its disposition/constitution (mortals will be more prone to carnal temptation, whereas an immortal soul being of the divine nature, will have more pure desires and abilities to do only good), etc.

There is much about karma on many levels that has pertinence and significance, no matter what kind of theology one subscribes to. I'm using this 'call out thread' (it is of a sort) as an opportunity to expound upon it further, making good use of the space and time here, since that is what Life gives us. Life and all karma is what we do with the space and time given to us,...how we use the potentials and possibilities in our power to effect anything.

'Karma-yoga' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_yoga) (a school within Vedic religious practice) by definition is a form of 'practice' that focuses on the doing of good works, for its own sake, which naturally as a by-product produces good results :)

God's Truth
March 14th, 2017, 07:10 PM
YOU are the only one bringing 'demons' into the discussion which have no place in such a discussion. Its ridiculous. My former commentary on the subject stands awaiting further consideration, debate or elaboration. The very fact that souls are 'judged according to their works', is proof of karmic law, since all actions have consequenes. This isn't rocket science,...although within karmic inter-actions, some things might appear mysterious, or 'random' in the flow of things, but most everything has karmic markers and indications, since whatever seed is planted, determines the form and quality of the harvest produced. As I noted earlier,...'karma' will be modified or attenuated based on the condition and potentials of a soul based on its disposition/constitution (mortals will be more prone to carnal temptation, whereas an immortal soul being of the divine nature, will have more pure desires and abilities to do only good), etc.

There is much about karma on many levels that has pertinence and significance, no matter what kind of theology one subscribes to. I'm using this 'call out thread' (it is of a sort) as an opportunity to expound upon it further, making good use of the space and time here, since that is what Life gives us. Life and all karma is what we do with the space and time given to us,...how we use the potentials and possibilities in our power to effect anything.

'Karma-yoga' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_yoga) (a school within Vedic religious practice) by definition is a form of 'practice' that focuses on the doing of good works, for its own sake, which naturally as a by-product produces good results :)

The Bible says it is a doctrine of demons.

way 2 go
March 14th, 2017, 08:40 PM
Could you prove your charge? Or just admit its an 'assumption'..

are you denying that you are relying on your good karma to save you ?

freelight
March 14th, 2017, 10:51 PM
The Bible says it is a doctrine of demons.

This claim is mistaken, by your misunderstanding of karma ;)

freelight
March 14th, 2017, 10:52 PM
are you denying that you are relying on your good karma to save you ?

I'm not claiming any 'salvation' one way or another. I'm expounding on the subject, and from there exploring what can be assumed or understood within any given theology. From exploring that, we'd have to further exposit various scenarios where karma factors into anyting.

God's Truth
March 15th, 2017, 01:47 AM
This claim is mistaken, by your misunderstanding of karma ;)

You are mistaken. I do not misunderstand karma.

csuguy
March 16th, 2017, 08:08 AM
Here is an interesting, and important, point about Karma vs Christianity: Karma is used as a means of explaining why bad things happen to people, even seemingly very good people. It's because they did bad deeds and are getting their just deserts - even if it took a few dozen lifetimes to catch up to them. Similarly, people who are horrible to others, yet are blessed by wealth, good looks, extraordinary talent, etc. are so blessed because this is their reward for the good they've done.

Now if you carry this out to its logical conclusion - this means that those who are suffering in society (the poor, sick, injured, etc.) are suffering because they deserve it. Likewise, those who are living a blissful life have earned it. What has been established here is class warfare: criminalizing the least of these because they suffer. On the flip side: idolizing the well-off as an example for how to live.

This is all completely contradictory to Christianity.

God's Truth
March 16th, 2017, 08:40 AM
Here is an interesting, and important, point about Karma vs Christianity: Karma is used as a means of explaining why bad things happen to people, even seemingly very good people. It's because they did bad deeds and are getting their just deserts - even if it took a few dozen lifetimes to catch up to them. Similarly, people who are horrible to others, yet are blessed by wealth, good looks, extraordinary talent, etc. are so blessed because this is their reward for the good they've done.

Now if you carry this out to its logical conclusion - this means that those who are suffering in society (the poor, sick, injured, etc.) are suffering because they deserve it. Likewise, those who are living a blissful life have earned it. What has been established here is class warfare: criminalizing the least of these because they suffer. On the flip side: idolizing the well-off as an example for how to live.

This is all completely contradictory to Christianity.

Exactly.

Karma is not from God.

We Christians though, will reap what we sow in this life for the next life.

If we live in sin and disobedience in this life, we will not have eternal life with Christ.

freelight
March 16th, 2017, 07:34 PM
Here is an interesting, and important, point about Karma vs Christianity: Karma is used as a means of explaining why bad things happen to people, even seemingly very good people. It's because they did bad deeds and are getting their just deserts - even if it took a few dozen lifetimes to catch up to them. Similarly, people who are horrible to others, yet are blessed by wealth, good looks, extraordinary talent, etc. are so blessed because this is their reward for the good they've done.

Now if you carry this out to its logical conclusion - this means that those who are suffering in society (the poor, sick, injured, etc.) are suffering because they deserve it. Likewise, those who are living a blissful life have earned it. What has been established here is class warfare: criminalizing the least of these because they suffer. On the flip side: idolizing the well-off as an example for how to live.

This is all completely contradictory to Christianity.

Hi csuguy,

It still holds that whatsoever a man sows, that also he reaps, the law of action and consequence, cause/effect, successive relations, inter-active affections, corresponding sequences....still continues. Its a universal law that sin produces its own effects, and love as well,....each tree producing its own fruit,....every seed produces after its kind. My former commentary here holds, while readers can research where they feel karma pertains, in the realm of conditional existence, for it remains apparent and logical that all that is subject to 'conditioning' by thought, intention, words, actions...is governed by the law of balance and compensation (karma). 'God' (law) is not mocked,....since you cannot overturn or abrogate karma. You might be able to relax, absolve or reverse karma by various ways of repentance, atonement, making good karma...but as long as you can be conditioned by any 'action',...there is karma.

It also remains that goodness is its own virtue, evil its own punishment, so we are to do good while we can, or repent while we are able....since our own words and works judge us, the law of karma is measure for measure, even if we don't see the effects of our actions until some near or far future time,...all thoughts, intentions, words, actions have their effects. That's what we're considering/exploring here, for those interested to read the whole thread. There's always more to learn.

If you deny karma entirely, you deny natural and spiritual law, scriptural teaching and common sense logic, even though some things within the continuum of life appear random or accidental, or caused by 'sin' (in conventional Christian theology),...you still have a 'cause' behind effects. Even with 'sin', you still have to make atonement for sin,....and this 'atonement' includes in totality to be complete, a genuine repentance, transformation of heart & soul, a changed life, a return to RIGHT DOING. So,...either way you look at it,..the universal bar of God's judgment carries out its justice and mercy,....by lawful measure, and grace at last absolves all sin, providing salvation for man, no matter what your theory or system of 'salvation' claims, its terms, etc. "and they were judged according to their 'karma'"...the scripture says. Karma = action/doing/works. Thoughts, intentions, words, actions still carry out their causal impressions and effects. This is either a fact, an observational truth, 'science' or everything is just haphazard, accidental, random. That would be foolish to assume, although in the flux of movements some actions appear to be 'random' or 'accidental',...but this is a matter of deeper study into 'karma'. We've barely scraped the surface, as eastern schools go pretty deep into this. We'll continue do go deeper :)

freelight
March 16th, 2017, 07:43 PM
Exactly.

Karma is not from God.


The principle or concept of 'karma' is scientific and philosophic,....if its how nature works, then it is certainly something originating by the Creator (and/or inherent within Creation itself), as a governing principle within the very soul and structure of existence.


We Christians though, will reap what we sow in this life for the next life.

Your acknowledgment of karma is noted :) - but you would appear to limit its operation ;)


If we live in sin and disobedience in this life, we will not have eternal life with Christ.

I think grace extends much further then we finite souls assume, that love extends way beyond the grave into eternity. That souls may have a limited time to respond to His love may be so,...but whats given in infinity must be way beyond our mortal grasp to assume.

waskosky
March 16th, 2017, 09:31 PM
Here is an interesting, and important, point about Karma vs Christianity: Karma is used as a means of explaining why bad things happen to people, even seemingly very good people. It's because they did bad deeds and are getting their just deserts - even if it took a few dozen lifetimes to catch up to them. Similarly, people who are horrible to others, yet are blessed by wealth, good looks, extraordinary talent, etc. are so blessed because this is their reward for the good they've done.

Now if you carry this out to its logical conclusion - this means that those who are suffering in society (the poor, sick, injured, etc.) are suffering because they deserve it. Likewise, those who are living a blissful life have earned it. What has been established here is class warfare: criminalizing the least of these because they suffer. On the flip side: idolizing the well-off as an example for how to live.

This is all completely contradictory to Christianity.

It seems very possible that this "logical conclusion" is still not the conclusion being reached by many inclined to think in terms of karma. Karma has also been used as a way of explaining why forgiving others for their past actions, rather than judging them for their current experiences, is the safer path to take. There would seem to be a significant element of contradiction in the belief systems of one who says "yes, I say they are at fault for their experience therefore I will not help them" and one who says "yes, I see they are hurting and therefore I am now at risk for not helping them." Both loving and unloving paths appear possible regardless of whether or not the higher principle invoked is labeled as karmic law or not.

"Idolizing" (or something less than idolizing) others well off could also be done through an effort to look for the virtues in their actions, and find greater opportunities for equivalent virtue in your efforts, or conversely as a way to look for the shortcuts to success by falling prey to greed in your thinking of how to reach the same success.

It does not seem inherently un-christian to value excellence:
"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." (Philippians 4:8 ESV)

Perceptions of the nature of "reward" seem to be a greatly variable factor in the relative value of metaphysical considerations from person to person.

God's Truth
March 16th, 2017, 10:29 PM
The principle or concept of 'karma' is scientific and philosophic,....if its how nature works, then it is certainly something originating by the Creator (and/or inherent within Creation itself), as a governing principle within the very soul and structure of existence.



Your acknowledgment of karma is noted :) - but you would appear to limit its operation ;)



I think grace extends much further then we finite souls assume, that love extends way beyond the grave into eternity. That souls may have a limited time to respond to His love may be so,...but whats given in infinity must be way beyond our mortal grasp to assume.

What don't you get that karma is evil and the doctrine of demons.

Why would you lie and say I acknowledge karma from the Bible when I have explained to you many times it is not in the Bible and it is of demons?

csuguy
March 16th, 2017, 11:49 PM
Hi csuguy,

It still holds that whatsoever a man sows, that also he reaps, the law of action and consequence, cause/effect, successive relations, inter-active affections, corresponding sequences....still continues. Its a universal law that sin produces its own effects, and love as well,....each tree producing its own fruit,....every seed produces after its kind. My former commentary here holds, while readers can research where they feel karma pertains, in the realm of conditional existence, for it remains apparent and logical that all that is subject to 'conditioning' by thought, intention, words, actions...is governed by the law of balance and compensation (karma). 'God' (law) is not mocked,....since you cannot overturn or abrogate karma. You might be able to relax, absolve or reverse karma by various ways of repentance, atonement, making good karma...but as long as you can be conditioned by any 'action',...there is karma.

It also remains that goodness is its own virtue, evil its own punishment, so we are to do good while we can, or repent while we are able....since our own words and works judge us, the law of karma is measure for measure, even if we don't see the effects of our actions until some near or far future time,...all thoughts, intentions, words, actions have their effects. That's what we're considering/exploring here, for those interested to read the whole thread. There's always more to learn.

If you deny karma entirely, you deny natural and spiritual law, scriptural teaching and common sense logic, even though some things within the continuum of life appear random or accidental, or caused by 'sin' (in conventional Christian theology),...you still have a 'cause' behind effects. Even with 'sin', you still have to make atonement for sin,....and this 'atonement' includes in totality to be complete, a genuine repentance, transformation of heart & soul, a changed life, a return to RIGHT DOING. So,...either way you look at it,..the universal bar of God's judgment carries out its justice and mercy,....by lawful measure, and grace at last absolves all sin, providing salvation for man, no matter what your theory or system of 'salvation' claims, its terms, etc. "and they were judged according to their 'karma'"...the scripture says. Karma = action/doing/works. Thoughts, intentions, words, actions still carry out their causal impressions and effects. This is either a fact, an observational truth, 'science' or everything is just haphazard, accidental, random. That would be foolish to assume, although in the flux of movements some actions appear to be 'random' or 'accidental',...but this is a matter of deeper study into 'karma'. We've barely scraped the surface, as eastern schools go pretty deep into this. We'll continue do go deeper :)



Hi Freelight,

I'd like to point out that cause and effect do not equate to karma. No one denies that actions (can) have consequences. However, this is much different than saying there is some cosmic force keeping tally of our deeds and giving us our due in equal measure (eventually - over an infinite number of lifetimes). Also, one can accept the general principle of cause/effect without accepting samsara/rebirth/nirvana - concepts which are intertwined with karma.

In other words, I can reject karma while accepting the concept of cause/effect, action/consequence. I can also accept that there are consequences for actions, while at the same time holding that our actions do not receive a reaction of equal consequence. People can be far more blessed than they deserve, and people can receive far more suffering than they deserve.

More to the point - people can suffer due the actions of others, or be blessed by the actions of others. Yet the person suffering/benefiting has done nothing to merit any such thing - it is caused by someone else. The book of Job addresses this point.

As far as sin/repentance/forgiveness - these are completely incompatible with the idea of karma. The whole idea behind karma is that you get exactly what you deserve. However, you do not earn forgiveness by repenting of your sins; when you are forgiven, your debt is forgotten rather than paid for. So, once more, we find Christianity and Buddhism incompatible at a fundamental level.

csuguy
March 17th, 2017, 12:08 AM
It seems very possible that this "logical conclusion" is still not the conclusion being reached by many inclined to think in terms of karma. Karma has also been used as a way of explaining why forgiving others for their past actions, rather than judging them for their current experiences, is the safer path to take. There would seem to be a significant element of contradiction in the belief systems of one who says "yes, I say they are at fault for their experience therefore I will not help them" and one who says "yes, I see they are hurting and therefore I am now at risk for not helping them." Both loving and unloving paths appear possible regardless of whether or not the higher principle invoked is labeled as karmic law or not.

"Idolizing" (or something less than idolizing) others well off could also be done through an effort to look for the virtues in their actions, and find greater opportunities for equivalent virtue in your efforts, or conversely as a way to look for the shortcuts to success by falling prey to greed in your thinking of how to reach the same success.

It does not seem inherently un-christian to value excellence:
"Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things." (Philippians 4:8 ESV)

Perceptions of the nature of "reward" seem to be a greatly variable factor in the relative value of metaphysical considerations from person to person.

Whether people realize the logical conclusion of karma or not - the fact remains. And there is plenty of evidence to support this as well -look at Hindu societies. They classically have a caste structure that one is born into. There are those without a caste who are forbidden from making anything of themselves - they just get to rot. Then you got laborers, then merchants, then warriors, and finally priests. Those at the top are the most well off, and those below must accept their role.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2XktzecBYo

As far as forgiveness - forgiveness is entirely incompatible with karma. Karma is an impersonal force/phenomenon that gives you your just deserts. Karma doesn't care if you are sorry, or if you attempted to make up for your bad deeds: nothing will cancel your debt save for being caused to suffer in equal measure.

I agree with your sentiment that even if one deserves some suffering for their actions, we can still choose to show them kindness. However, there is a fundamental problem with simply assuming that people who suffer deserve it: it dismisses the idea that they are victims. If a woman is raped, for instance, this philosophy would tell us she deserved it. If someone is murdered, they deserved it. etc. This philosophy criminalizes the victims - and is thus fundamentally flawed and incompatible with Christianity.

Idolizing the rich/well-off is foolish and contrary to Christianity. Idolization is a sin. And idolizing the rich/well-off is silly since 1) most of them inherited their wealth, and 2) acquiring and maintaining that wealth is often done at the expense of the well-being of others. The scriptures make it clear that you cannot serve God and wealth; worldly desires and values are fundamentally at odds with the desires and values of God.

freelight
March 17th, 2017, 12:33 AM
Hi Freelight,

I'd like to point out that cause and effect do not equate to karma. No one denies that actions (can) have consequences. However, this is much different than saying there is some cosmic force keeping tally of our deeds and giving us our due in equal measure (eventually - over an infinite number of lifetimes). Also, one can accept the general principle of cause/effect without accepting samsara/rebirth/nirvana - concepts which are intertwined with karma.

In other words, I can reject karma while accepting the concept of cause/effect, action/consequence. I can also accept that there are consequences for actions, while at the same time holding that our actions do not receive a reaction of equal consequence. People can be far more blessed than they deserve, and people can receive far more suffering than they deserve.

More to the point - people can suffer due the actions of others, or be blessed by the actions of others. Yet the person suffering/benefiting has done nothing to merit any such thing - it is caused by someone else. The book of Job addresses this point.

As far as sin/repentance/forgiveness - these are completely incompatible with the idea of karma. The whole idea behind karma is that you get exactly what you deserve. However, you do not earn forgiveness by repenting of your sins; when you are forgiven, your debt is forgotten rather than paid for. So, once more, we find Christianity and Buddhism incompatible at a fundamental level.

We've discussed this before, and your sustained view that the Buddhist concept of karma and Christianity may be 'incompatible',....however this depends on the 'terms' and definitions you've provided in your presentation,...there may be other aspects and dimensions to consider that may 'challenge' or 'counter' some of your points :) - and there are still variations within eastern and western schools on how 'karma' is approached or correlated 'philosophically' ;)

I accept that you can accept 'cause/effect' relationships without subscribing to a particular Buddhist concept of karma, but I think this can be further researched, unless you have exhausted all knowledge and wisdom that could be efforded here, and have come to an absolute conclusion on the matter :) - for that you'd have to claim perfect knowledge, but you can only 'assume' anything on your own particular perception of a subject at any point in time. Granted it may be learned, due to your study on the subject,...but just saying...there may be more to learn.

Furthermore, we understand that a non-theist tradition such as Buddhism does not subscribe to the theist belief system of Chrsitianity, so will naturally differ from it on some fundamental levels since Buddhism has no 'original sin', 'salvation', 'atonement', 'soteriology/escahtological' issues to concern itself over like Christianity. I'm sure there are some Buddhists who were once Christians and vice versa (curious to see the % rate there), and every soul is currently NOW where they are at, for any number of perhaps 'karmic' reasons, because this is just how the cosmos has 'arranged' and 'coordinated' things. On that note, every religious philosophy and tradition has something of meaning and value to their members thereof and to the whole of existence (the grand equation and inter-relativity of the cosmos), but the subject is 'relative'.

I also note you hold to a rather rigid conception of karma and are comparing things with that 'definition', while my definition would appear much more liberal :) - but I kinda gather you figured that :cool:

csuguy
March 17th, 2017, 12:46 AM
I also note you hold to a rather rigid conception of karma and are comparing things with that 'definition', while my definition would appear much more liberal :) - but I kinda gather you figured that :cool:

If I'm speaking about religion X, I try to remain true to that religions teachings/definitions/etc. There are many different Karmic Religions with some pretty drastic differences in their conception of what karma is. In this thread I've focused primarily on the Hindu/Buddhist conception of karma - which also seems to be your primary focus. If there is some alternate Karmic Religion that you feel is more compatible we could take a look at that - but the evidence is clear concerning Hinduism/Buddhism; they are fundamentally at odds with Christianity.

freelight
March 18th, 2017, 06:03 PM
If I'm speaking about religion X, I try to remain true to that religions teachings/definitions/etc. There are many different Karmic Religions with some pretty drastic differences in their conception of what karma is. In this thread I've focused primarily on the Hindu/Buddhist conception of karma - which also seems to be your primary focus. If there is some alternate Karmic Religion that you feel is more compatible we could take a look at that - but the evidence is clear concerning Hinduism/Buddhism; they are fundamentally at odds with Christianity.

We're reviewing the universal meaning of karma as its similarly and differently expounded upon in the various religious traditions.

Jainism has a most interesting and in some ways more extreme view of karma, since karma is said to materially attract itself like sub-atomic particles, being actual 'matter' encrusting souls until karma is resolved or dissipated thru spiritual purification and good works. Therefore the whole of individual and universal existence is ever mediated by karma. - since all is metaphysically made of one universal substance, all things/beings are intrinsically related in some way so that this substance is always subject to the conditioning of karma, more or less...unless/until one attains a condition of 'moksha' (liberation).

See: Karma in Jainism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_in_Jainism)

csuguy
March 19th, 2017, 02:00 AM
We're reviewing the universal meaning of karma as its similarly and differently expounded upon in the various religious traditions.

Jainism has a most interesting and in some ways more extreme view of karma, since karma is said to materially attract itself like sub-atomic particles, being actual 'matter' encrusting souls until karma is resolved or dissipated thru spiritual purification and good works. Therefore the whole of individual and universal existence is ever mediated by karma. - since all is metaphysically made of one universal substance, all things/beings are intrinsically related in some way so that this substance is always subject to the conditioning of karma, more or less...unless/until one attains a condition of 'moksha' (liberation).

See: Karma in Jainism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma_in_Jainism)

Apart from perhaps a little more detailed view of what karma is (a physical substance, with 8 different types) - Jainism's view of karma at first glance appears to be more or less inline with the Hindu & Buddhist views. Not surprising as all of these religions originate in the melting pot of India, when there were plenty of competing gurus and the like.

Not the best source, but to quote that wiki article you provided:


Jains believe that karma is a physical substance that is everywhere in the universe.Karma particles are attracted to the soul by the actions of that soul... Jains cite inequalities, sufferings, and pain as evidence for the existence of karma. Various types of karma are classified according to their effects on the potency of the soul. The Jain theory seeks to explain the karmic process by specifying the various causes of karmic influx (āsrava) and bondage (bandha), placing equal emphasis on deeds themselves, and the intentions behind those deeds. The Jain karmic theory attaches great responsibility to individual actions, and eliminates any reliance on some supposed existence of divine grace or retribution. The Jain doctrine also holds that it is possible for us to both modify our karma, and to obtain release from it, through the austerities and purity of conduct.

As I pointed out with the Hindu/Buddhist conception, karma is the explanation for suffering and inequality in life - karma accumulating as a result of moral action. They apparently even go so far as to use the existence of suffering as evidence for karma (lolz). This means that their world view doesn't permit the idea that your suffering is anyone's fault but your own - your quality of life, the things that happen to you, are all a direct result of your own actions. Here is a quote from that article from a Jain monk:


The prosperity of a vicious man and misery of a virtuous man are respectively but the effects of good deeds and bad deeds done previously. The vice and virtue may have their effects in their next lives. In this way the law of causality is not infringed here.

In one sense I suppose this can be viewed as empowering: you can even reach the heavens if you are good enough. However, in practice this means that people are victimized as a result of their suffering. If you are suffering its because YOU did something bad and deserve to suffer.

For a religion that claims to not know the full truth of anything, they can be quite judgemental (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anekantavada). Karma maybe a convenient notion, but it is very short sighted - they can't even consider the possibility that one's suffering is purely the product of circumstance or else the result of another's bad deeds.

Some interesting points where Jainism does differentiate from Buddhism, however, is 1. the existence of the soul, and 2. any violent act accumulates karma (not just intentional violence).

freelight
March 21st, 2017, 01:15 AM
Apart from perhaps a little more detailed view of what karma is (a physical substance, with 8 different types) - Jainism's view of karma at first glance appears to be more or less inline with the Hindu & Buddhist views. Not surprising as all of these religions originate in the melting pot of India, when there were plenty of competing gurus and the like.

Not the best source, but to quote that wiki article you provided:



As I pointed out with the Hindu/Buddhist conception, karma is the explanation for suffering and inequality in life - karma accumulating as a result of moral action. They apparently even go so far as to use the existence of suffering as evidence for karma (lolz). This means that their world view doesn't permit the idea that your suffering is anyone's fault but your own - your quality of life, the things that happen to you, are all a direct result of your own actions. Here is a quote from that article from a Jain monk:



In one sense I suppose this can be viewed as empowering: you can even reach the heavens if you are good enough. However, in practice this means that people are victimized as a result of their suffering. If you are suffering its because YOU did something bad and deserve to suffer.

No matter your view or understanding of 'karma',...the law of self-responsibility, and sowing and reaping cannot be abrogated. This law is upheld in the scriptures, for souls are judged according to their works (karma). So,...no matter how you qualify, define or assume karma to work, even in your paradigm of grace,....you still get the harvest of what kind of seeds YOU plant. - work/action then, any movement of spirit-soul-body has causal influence that produces effects....there is still some kind of 'karmic-compensation' going on, no matter how much grace or love absolves or atones for certain actions.....we still have some genuine responsibility, or else there would be no such thing as 'rewards' or 'punishments', let alone the concept of 'earning'. Spiritual earning is something you dont hear much about in Christianity, but the school of Niscience (http://www.niscience.org) does teach this concept :)


For a religion that claims to not know the full truth of anything, they can be quite judgemental (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anekantavada). Karma maybe a convenient notion, but it is very short sighted - they can't even consider the possibility that one's suffering is purely the product of circumstance or else the result of another's bad deeds.


Some of their rules and austerities may be strict, but I dont think they are necessarily judgmental (let alone dogmatic), and in fact their practice of 'Anekantavada' renders them rather tolerant, fair and accepting of all different points of view regarding a subject. (I may do a thread on this).

Also, I've noted and agreed previously that not all suffering is wholly SELF-inflicted or mediated....as sometimes we are affected by other peoples karma, and sometimes even take on some of their karma (transmuting it) thru mediative work, such as in prayer, intercession, or close association with other souls, especially in the case of ministers (where we serve as mediators).

Even when we consider the atoning sacrifice of Jesus giving his soul-life, his grace did take on the 'karma' (to some degree) of the world, and its effects, if you believe he 'tasted' death for all men. So the Lord Jesus, the avatar of Love does indeed relieve our suffering to a degree by us accepting his love, and whatever 'atonement' it affords. (I however had a different view on blood-atonement here (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?123355-Atonement-without-blood-according-to-Freelight) ).

However,...the principle of self-responsibility and need for genuine repentance can never be totally 'substituted' by the work, sacrifice or offering of another. - back to the principle of 'responsibility'. - on one level, you are responsible for your own sins and your own atonement,....this is provided for by God's grace,...but the principle of self-responsibility holds, as ethically sound and morally just, since a soul dies for its own sins,...and is responsible via repentance for its own salvation. All is provided for by God of course. Now if you want to factor in Jesus sacrifice, you have to account for all levels of how 'forgiveness' and 'atonement' works, and this does not totally absolve or annul personal response-ability.



Some interesting points where Jainism does differentiate from Buddhism, however, is 1. the existence of the soul, and 2. any violent act accumulates karma (not just intentional violence).

Yes, since Jainist view of karma is really 'material',....the action itself and its affection, produces the same effect as if the act was 'intentional', so some material or atomic substance of the 'act' muddies the soul as it were. I would gather however, that karma on a psychological level may be more impactful when an intentional sin is committed, as opposed to unintentional,...as would appear to be along the Buddhist line of thought.....'intention' being a major factor in karmic results.

I've recently seen some lectures by a few spiritual teachers that seem to discount the notion of karma altogether, and say its basically based on your belief as well, if karma really has any effect or meaning to anyone or anything. I would suppose to a degree, one's personal belief or attention on the subject may render it less meaningful or important. Hmmmm. As far as relativity goes, relationality, cause/effect, action/consequence relationships go, and that we reap what we sow (to some degree according to some patterned law of conductivity), it would appear karma, or an understanding of it on some level, is fundamental to life, and definitely includes the kind and quality of results that our thoughts, words and actions produce. So,...naturally...its an interesting topic :)

csuguy
March 21st, 2017, 09:56 AM
No matter your view or understanding of 'karma',...the law of self-responsibility, and sowing and reaping cannot be abrogated. This law is upheld in the scriptures, for souls are judged according to their works (karma). So,...no matter how you qualify, define or assume karma to work, even in your paradigm of grace,....you still get the harvest of what kind of seeds YOU plant. - work/action then, any movement of spirit-soul-body has causal influence that produces effects....there is still some kind of 'karmic-compensation' going on, no matter how much grace or love absolves or atones for certain actions.....we still have some genuine responsibility, or else there would be no such thing as 'rewards' or 'punishments', let alone the concept of 'earning'. Spiritual earning is something you dont hear much about in Christianity, but the school of Niscience (http://www.niscience.org) does teach this concept :)

You are trying to force a paradigm onto Christianity that doesn't fit. While at the Judgement we will be rewarded based upon our deeds, there is also forgiveness for sins - which means we won't be judged for the deeds we have been forgiven for. Additionally, our deeds don't account necessarily account for the good/bad we experience in life. The book of Job in particular addresses and dismisses such an idea. Sometimes - yes. However in the Abrahamic Faiths it is incorrect to think that if someone is suffering its because they deserve to, or if someone is blessed that they deserve to be. Life is more complicated than that - a good person can suffer because of the sins of others, or out of circumstance. A bad person can live very well through no merit.



Some of their rules and austerities may be strict, but I dont think they are necessarily judgmental (let alone dogmatic), and in fact their practice of 'Anekantavada' renders them rather tolerant, fair and accepting of all different points of view regarding a subject. (I may do a thread on this).

On some matters perhaps, but clearly not when it comes to the suffering of others.


Also, I've noted and agreed previously that not all suffering is wholly SELF-inflicted or mediated....as sometimes we are affected by other peoples karma, and sometimes even take on some of their karma (transmuting it) thru mediative work, such as in prayer, intercession, or close association with other souls, especially in the case of ministers (where we serve as mediators).

Now you are deviating from the religion being discussed - adding in your own ideas. In the Karmic Religions like Buddhism, Hinduism, and Jainism - all suffering is ultimately self-inflicted via karma.


Even when we consider the atoning sacrifice of Jesus giving his soul-life, his grace did take on the 'karma' (to some degree) of the world, and its effects, if you believe he 'tasted' death for all men. So the Lord Jesus, the avatar of Love does indeed relieve our suffering to a degree by us accepting his love, and whatever 'atonement' it affords. (I however had a different view on blood-atonement here (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?123355-Atonement-without-blood-according-to-Freelight) ).

Again - you are trying to force a foreign concept onto Christianity that doesn't work. In the first place, Christianity does not fear suffering or promise to take away people's suffering. Rather, Christianity promises that you will suffer just as Christ did if you follow him. In the second place, Christ's sacrifice established the New Covenant through which we MAY be forgiven and redeemed - if we follow him to and do the will of God. His sacrifice didn't produce an automatic annulment of the worlds sins (else all would be saved, end of story). But he was given the authority to forgive sins, and he instructed us on the matter of forgiveness.


However,...the principle of self-responsibility and need for genuine repentance can never be totally 'substituted' by the work, sacrifice or offering of another. - back to the principle of 'responsibility'. - on one level, you are responsible for your own sins and your own atonement,....this is provided for by God's grace,...but the principle of self-responsibility holds, as ethically sound and morally just, since a soul dies for its own sins,...and is responsible via repentance for its own salvation. All is provided for by God of course. Now if you want to factor in Jesus sacrifice, you have to account for all levels of how 'forgiveness' and 'atonement' works, and this does not totally absolve or annul personal response-ability.

If the responsibility for sin remains then you haven't been forgiven. Forgiveness = letting go of the debt (of sin); the one who committed the act is free from needing to pay it back. You simply demonstrate again and again how karma and Christianity don't work together.


Yes, since Jainist view of karma is really 'material',....the action itself and its affection, produces the same effect as if the act was 'intentional', so some material or atomic substance of the 'act' muddies the soul as it were. I would gather however, that karma on a psychological level may be more impactful when an intentional sin is committed, as opposed to unintentional,...as would appear to be along the Buddhist line of thought.....'intention' being a major factor in karmic results.

I've recently seen some lectures by a few spiritual teachers that seem to discount the notion of karma altogether, and say its basically based on your belief as well, if karma really has any effect or meaning to anyone or anything. I would suppose to a degree, one's personal belief or attention on the subject may render it less meaningful or important. Hmmmm. As far as relativity goes, relationality, cause/effect, action/consequence relationships go, and that we reap what we sow (to some degree according to some patterned law of conductivity), it would appear karma, or an understanding of it on some level, is fundamental to life, and definitely includes the kind and quality of results that our thoughts, words and actions produce. So,...naturally...its an interesting topic :)

Yea I enjoy studying these different sects and religions - interesting to see all the different ways people can approach these topics. Just understand when you freely mix ideas across religions - you are no longer staying true to those religions.

freelight
March 23rd, 2017, 01:55 AM
You are trying to force a paradigm onto Christianity that doesn't fit.

I don't think so,...since I've been explaining and expounding on the universal principle of karma, and merely showing that the law of cause/effect, sowing/reaping, action/consequence is also recognized within the Bible, and by conscious beings everywhere really. I've also criticized Way2go who started this thread that to posit 'Christianity' is against 'karma' is not entirely correct, although as you propose, you can specify on particular points of philosophical or doctrinal issues where Christian theology does not accept 'karma' as defined and proposed within some of the karmic religions of the east, and on those particulars we would agree on some disagreements, since Christianity has a whole different world-view, cosmology, soteriological/eschatological paradigm, within its own 'sin/salvation' model which other religious tradition do not subscribe to. So I share this more from a theosophical point of view, recognizing Christianity already has its own set of dogmas it subscribes to.



Yea I enjoy studying these different sects and religions - interesting to see all the different ways people can approach these topics. Just understand when you freely mix ideas across religions - you are no longer staying true to those religions.

Excellent. I'm not necessarily trying to stay true to any one given religious tradition, but expanding, exploring, correlating different points within all of them, synergistically, and OF COURSE adding my own thoughts and commentary.

And still, "God is not mocked,....whatsoever a soul sows, it shall also reap accordingly to the law of seedtime & harvest". So the dynamic force of the law of 'action' and corresponding results...in their various cause/effect relationships...still has some significance (they correspond, relate, correlate, are inter-dependent in some way, either directly or indirectly). That's all I'm noting, and researching here.

Pulkit Mathur of The Spiritual Bee explains some good insights on karma from an Advaita Vedantic (a school within Hinduism) view - will share a series of her vids chronologically :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUCZeEarVQI

quip
March 23rd, 2017, 11:29 AM
Simple Definition of karma

karma
kill a person -1 fornicate and have a child +1 = even



Simple indeed. :chuckle:

At least he's got math down.

freelight
March 23rd, 2017, 02:55 PM
Simple indeed. :chuckle:

At least he's got math down.

Unfortunately 'karma' is not a mechanical law that compensates an exact 'measure for measure' compensation for actions (as to be mathematically equivelant or some other precise measurement),...there are repurcussions, consequences and effects that condition karmic inter-actions, but yes....ultimately all actions are compensated and mediated appropriately because of the laws and principles of karma that exist, plus various conditioners.

Pulkit Mathur continues her dissertation on karma in Part 2to reveal more on this -


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-7w7mLy6ck&t=4s

All actions intended or unintended by conscious beings enact effects which are mediated by a divine intelligence, since it is within the mediative network of consciousness that all potentials and possibilities are being actualized, experienced. Pulkit posits within Vedantic philosophy that the soul (atman) is that which mediates all karma, since the 'atman' is 'Brahman' (God), so it is that divine entity/soul/divinity within that is 'mediating', 'processing', 'judging' all activity then allowing the personality to undergo the working out of that karma, resolving/absolving it. Karma in this context serves as a learning-mechanism and opportunity to foster good actions and ultimately liberation (moksha). In Advaita Vedanta the soul(atman) is 'God' (Brahman)...same essence, identity,...so no matter how one differentiates or appropriates the divine arbiter...all karma is being mediated by God and the personality as they work together in evolving, learning, transcending, etc. In all these transactions, Deity mediates his law thru justice and mercy, since grace is always extant and abundant since the divine will is towards good, benevolence, blessing, freedom, joy.

When Paul says "God is not mocked, whatsoever a man sows, that also he shall reap",...'God' also refers to divine law, the law of attention, for whatever a man sets his mind upon, that he reflects, that is what he brings into his experience. While this may not infer exactly a concept of karma as articulated among eastern religions, it is still within the context of karma, since the act of attention and sowing one's focus upon a thing, enacts a result from that ACT of attention, upon the 'flesh' or the 'spirit', in Paul's terms. Still,...the scriptural pattern, that all will be 'judged according to their works', and there are rewards given to those who overcome, is naturally by the law of compensation. We can term it what we like, but 'karma' is inclusive of the principle at work, various aspects and features of it. There is a 'measure for measure' aspect to it all, but grace and love ultimately absolves all, and liberates one in the Spirit.

quip
March 23rd, 2017, 03:43 PM
I see all of creation as "god" thus the functions of karma/kamma have a more earthy function...in my opinion.

way 2 go
March 25th, 2017, 07:38 PM
http://theologyonline.com/images/metro/blue/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by way 2 go http://theologyonline.com/images/metro/blue/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?p=4637516#post4637516)

Simple Definition of karma

karma
kill a person -1 fornicate and have a child +1 = even


Simple indeed. :chuckle:

At least he's got math down.


well I'm not wrong since karma is made up
no such thing as a "law of karma".

quip
March 25th, 2017, 08:12 PM
well I'm not wrong since karma is made up
no such thing as a "law of karma".

Gee whiz....I'm glad all this mess is cleared up now. Makes one wonder why the OP was ever initiated in the first place! :idunno:

way 2 go
March 26th, 2017, 02:47 PM
karma is useless, just another path to hell while you strive
for a better reincarnation .

https://media.giphy.com/media/smHX3ZraxPu0g/giphy.gif

quip
March 26th, 2017, 06:01 PM
karma is useless, just another path to hell while you strive
for a better reincarnation .

https://media.giphy.com/media/smHX3ZraxPu0g/giphy.gif

For your karmic sake...you better hope you're right.

freelight
March 30th, 2017, 05:54 AM
karma is useless, just another path to hell while you strive
for a better reincarnation .


I think readers can read the thread so far, and make their own determination on understanding what karma is :) - research and education on the subject is essential to treat the subject fairly. All thoughts, intentions, words and actions have effects. This is why it does matter what you do or do not do within the greater scheme of movements in space and time, and how that affects your conscious experience.

The entire Bible (and most every religious tradition or system of ethical law) would support this understanding, and the fact that 'God' and his messengers teach man the ways, codes and principles to live by, further verifies this observation.

'Heaven' and 'hell' are reflective states of consciousness, for the mind tends to reflect (like within a mirror) what it gives its attention to, while the law of seedtime and harvest of a certain mentality or action, produces its own effects (fruit), - as long as actions persist....there is karma. (this is what karma is). This makes one responsible for his actions, or those effects which are caused by his own intentional willful acts. Such is the law of accountability. karmic effects may be modified or attenuated by various factors within different contexts.

Your consciousness and actions are birthing new experiences for you from moment to moment, day to day, year to year. You don't need a theory or even belief in 're-incarnation' to accept the principle of 'rebirth' philosophically and apply it within a greater religious life-context of being careful of your attitude and behaviors. Do recall the scriptures speak of a 'Book of Remembrance' and a 'Book of Life',...so there is an 'accounting' of choices and deeds kept in the akashic records. No good choice or deed goes unrewarded, neither does any sin or evil go without suffering or punishment somewhere along the line. There is perfect justice and merciful provision in the cosmos. Such is the way the Universe works.

quip
March 30th, 2017, 12:33 PM
so there is an 'accounting' of choices and deeds kept in the akashic records. No good choice or deed goes unrewarded, neither does any sin or evil go without suffering or punishment somewhere along the line. There is perfect justice and merciful provision in the cosmos. Such is the way the Universe works.

Here's where we differ.

One does not seek good karma any more than bad karma, lest you cling to the concept; suffer in such ego desires.

freelight
March 30th, 2017, 12:59 PM
Here's where we differ.

One does not seek good karma any more than bad karma, lest you cling to the concept; suffer in such ego desires.

That viewpoint is acknowledged among some,...I highlight 'karma yoga' (the practice of good works, charity, kindness, etc.) as a preferable course of life, instead of leading a sinful life, a gesture taught in most religions schools, which is both logical and reasonable. You can lead a life of complete dispassion or non-action if you like, but just noting the scriptural injunction to "overcome evil with good",...."do what is right, NOT what is wrong"...these are basic moral principles to consider and live out, lest you lead a life of suffering. The Buddhist variations on the theme of 'karma' are noted, as one can approach or interpret this in their own terms or understanding.

Yes,...the complete non-dual path of letting go of everything, non-attachment would have one cling to no belief or concept of anything whatsoever, if you want to try that route, but that person will still be subject to any results of his deeds, so this religious principle of conduct still holds, regardless of one's belief about it. IF you as a person cannot escape 'karma', then would you prefer to do good deeds for the sake of goodness itself, and that its a positive life-affirming and bliss-sustaining path, or prefer to do negative harmful actions and incur the suffering and pain that such a life will give to you? A lot of this is common sense, regardless of whatever 'nuance' you put on it.

Since you cannot escape karma, act consciously and wisely, because karma is inescapable, unless you can attain complete non-attachment, non-action, or transcend all duality and cause/effects relationships. Does a rejection of the law of gravity negate its effect? - hence forth I propose these considerations so you might consider the logic or wisdom being shared therein, if there there be any here. Do you find anything irrational or illogical about karma that I've shared so far here? :)

quip
March 30th, 2017, 05:47 PM
That viewpoint is acknowledged among some,...I highlight 'karma yoga' (the practice of good works, charity, kindness, etc.) as a preferable course of life, instead of leading a sinful life, a gesture taught in most religions schools, which is both logical and reasonable. You can lead a life of complete dispassion or non-action if you like, but just noting the scriptural injunction to "overcome evil with good",...."do what is right, NOT what is wrong"...these are basic moral principles to consider and live out, lest you lead a life of suffering. The Buddhist variations on the theme of 'karma' are noted, as one can approach or interpret this in their own terms or understanding.

Yes,...the complete non-dual path of letting go of everything, non-attachment would have one cling to no belief or concept of anything whatsoever, if you want to try that route, but that person will still be subject to any results of his deeds, so this religious principle of conduct still holds, regardless of one's belief about it. IF you as a person cannot escape 'karma', then would you prefer to do good deeds for the sake of goodness itself, and that its a positive life-affirming and bliss-sustaining path, or prefer to do negative harmful actions and incur the suffering and pain that such a life will give to you? A lot of this is common sense, regardless of whatever 'nuance' you put on it.

Since you cannot escape karma, act consciously and wisely, because karma is inescapable, unless you can attain complete non-attachment, non-action, or transcend all duality and cause/effects relationships. Does a rejection of the law of gravity negate its effect? - hence forth I propose these considerations so you might consider the logic or wisdom being shared therein, if there there be any here. Do you find anything irrational or illogical about karma that I've shared so far here? :)

It's not a question of living dispassionate or living a life of non-action.(which is impossible BTW).
Rather its living with the compassionate understanding that there is no karmic ledger to complete....just simply action and reaction. The problem with the good/bad dichotomy is that intentions of good commonly turn to bad...and vice versa (states of impermanence) Many good actions are, as you stated, common sense. Others are not so easily constrained within such simplistic mental constructs. Clinging to such concepts only contrives the relationships between causes to their expectations on effects.

Bad karma is simply a necessary aspect of existence. There cannot be good karma without bad karma, no more than there may be an up without a down. We ultimately learn goodness from bad karma, it's not to be avoided or feared through self-righteous segregation but rather all must exist through it and thus compassionatly accepting it.

way 2 go
April 1st, 2017, 08:18 PM
I think readers can read the thread so far, and make their own determination on understanding what karma is :)
karma is a lie



- research and education on the subject is essential to treat the subject fairly.
study the bible, study the truth, not the counterfeit .



All thoughts, intentions, words and actions have effects. This is why it does matter what you do or do not do within the greater scheme of movements in space and time, and how that affects your conscious experience.

:blabla:

your belief in karma and disinterest of what is true
will guide you to eternal conscious torment.




The entire Bible (and most every religious tradition or system of ethical law) would support this understanding, and the fact that 'God' and his messengers teach man the ways, codes and principles to live by, further verifies this observation.

no . quoting bible verses out of context is not proof that the bible supports karma .



'Heaven' and 'hell' are reflective states of consciousness,
no


for the mind tends to reflect (like within a mirror) what it gives its attention to, while the law of seedtime and harvest of a certain mentality or action, produces its own effects (fruit), - as long as actions persist....there is karma.(this is what karma is).
no. not true now won't be true when you die




This makes one responsible for his actions, or those effects which are caused by his own intentional willful acts. Such is the law of accountability. karmic effects may be modified or attenuated by various factors within different contexts.

sin kills Jesus gives life.
Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me



Your consciousness and actions are birthing new experiences for you from moment to moment, day to day, year to year. You don't need a theory or even belief in 're-incarnation' to accept the principle of 'rebirth' philosophically and apply it within a greater religious life-context of being careful of your attitude and behaviors. Do recall the scriptures speak of a 'Book of Remembrance' and a 'Book of Life',...so there is an 'accounting' of choices and deeds kept in the akashic records. No good choice or deed goes unrewarded, neither does any sin or evil go without suffering or punishment somewhere along the line. There is perfect justice and merciful provision in the cosmos. Such is the way the Universe works.
heaven or eternal conscious torment.

Rom 2:5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
Rom 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works:
Rom 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
Rom 2:8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

freelight
June 16th, 2017, 11:00 PM
karma is a lie

No,...it is a word that means 'action' or 'doing', and understood as also including all the consequences and patterned effects of such actions. For those following our thread so far, they can learn what it actually means from the philosophical perspectives of both eastern and western religious traditions. Education on matters can do wonders. Karma is universal, and its laws, actions and conductivity is also logically 'universal'. "As you sow, so shall you reap",....we've been over this again and again :surf: - "what measure you mete out, shall be measured back to you".


study the bible, study the truth, not the counterfeit .

I've done ample bible study over the years, and the reality of 'actions' and 'consequences' continues to be. "and each were judged according to their karma". Remember...'karma' is 'deeds', 'actions', 'doing'.


:blabla:

your belief in karma and disinterest of what is true
will guide you to eternal conscious torment.


ECT has been challenged here (http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?1581-ECT) and elsewhere. - it is a pernicious doctrine. It is more likely by right understanding of karma, that I will be inspired to DO GOOD, and thereby reap the reward of goodness for its own sake, and enjoy the laws of God because they are good and right, and bring no pain or sorrow ;)



no . quoting bible verses out of context is not proof that the bible supports karma .

The fact of universal law is a law unto itself, it doesnt necessarily need to be found in a religious book, it just so happens that some religious writings in traditions both east and west, recognize and describe the law, since its an observable law of nature. When you observe the book of Nature, you have access into the cosmos itself, how things work and operate. You dont need a man-made book necessarily.


sin kills Jesus gives life.

Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me

I've never claimed anywhere that Jesus is NOT the way, truth and life, since he represents 'God' as his anointed Messenger. If the wages of 'sin' is 'death'....what are the wages of 'right conduct'? :) - put your thinking cap on...........



heaven or eternal conscious torment.

Not quite,....we've already shown the insanity of ECT, its not becoming of a Good and Loving Deity.

Now 'heaven' yes....since in the presence of 'God'....there is always 'heaven', being that pure and beautiful realm of 'God-consciousness'. Remember,...Spirit is OMNIPRESENT :) 'Heaven' is HERE & NOW. The 'I AM' of pure Awareness is ever being itself, all-ways. The Allness of God ever IS.


Rom 2:5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
Rom 2:6 He will render to each one according to his works:
Rom 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
Rom 2:8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Your passage above, clearly supports 'karma'. Thanks for sharing :) - read it again carefully.....wrath is only 'stored up' by those who are wilfull rebels and sinners. The wages of sin is death, right? He will render to each according to their karma. To those who DO WELL, and actively SEEK for glory and immortality,....what does God give them? TO those who are purely selfish and do NOT the truth, but only do WRONG....they reap what they sow. The options of Life or Death are given by 'God' to all conscious beings to choose, but in the meantime...AS LONG AS THERE IS ACTION of any kind....there is 'karma' and the consequences of various kinds and qualities of action, which must be effected because that is how the law of action works. Its pretty basic and universal....and there will be different modifying factors and conditional effects per each individual action.

This is why in the ultimate and perfect sense, only 'God' can rightfully judge and adjudicate every soul, as their case comes before the divine tribunals. God renders the most perfect judgments, wholly just and merciful, allowing all the opportunity to fulfill their purpose for being, even while giving a certain measure of free will liberty. The universal axiom holds,....."he will give to each one according to their works". - I dont see anytime when this standard rule will no longer apply, because as long as there are actions...there will continue to be the effects and consequences of thought, word and deed.

oatmeal
June 18th, 2017, 06:52 AM
Simple Definition of karma

: the force created by a person's actions that is believed in Hinduism and Buddhism to determine what that person's next life will be like

: the force created by a person's actions that some people believe causes good or bad things to happen to that person

karma
kill a person -1 fornicate and have a child +1 = even


Christianity

Rom 4:4 Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due.
Rom 4:5 And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,


Christians receive heaven which is gift we can not earn
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

We do reap what we sow.

However, we have only one life to live, not a series of lives.

For a believer, we have received the gift of eternal life, so even though that eternal life may be temporarily be interrupted by our death, I Thessalonians 4:13-18 tells us that the dead shall rise up and so shall we ever be with the lord.

We have been justified and been judged righteous, after all, our sins have been paid for and we have been given righteousness as part of the eternal life/salvation gift.

We do have the wonderful expectation for being judged, not for evil, but for good and the receiving of eternal rewards for good and faithful service to God and His son according to God's word.

way 2 go
June 18th, 2017, 03:53 PM
No,...it is a word that means 'action' or 'doing', and understood as also including all the consequences and patterned effects of such actions. For those following our thread so far, they can learn what it actually means from the philosophical perspectives of both eastern and western religious traditions. Education on matters can do wonders. Karma is universal, and its laws, actions and conductivity is also logically 'universal'. "As you sow, so shall you reap",....we've been over this again and again :surf: - "what measure you mete out, shall be measured back to you".
karma is a lie like mormonism is a lie both paths lead to hell



I've done ample bible study over the years, and the reality of 'actions' and 'consequences' continues to be. "and each were judged according to their karma". Remember...'karma' is 'deeds', 'actions', 'doing'.

most clever trick of satan is mixing truth with lies .
breaking God's law is sin , not bad karma and the penalty for sin is death



ECT has been challenged here (http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?1581-ECT) and elsewhere. - it is a pernicious doctrine. It is more likely by right understanding of karma, that I will be inspired to DO GOOD, and thereby reap the reward of goodness for its own sake, and enjoy the laws of God because they are good and right, and bring no pain or sorrow ;)

ECT has been challenged and found biblical ,Jesus taught about it himself Luke 16:19-31 , Mat 25:46



The fact of universal law is a law unto itself, it doesnt necessarily need to be found in a religious book, it just so happens that some religious writings in traditions both east and west, recognize and describe the law, since its an observable law of nature. When you observe the book of Nature, you have access into the cosmos itself, how things work and operate. You dont need a man-made book necessarily.

laws are information , information needs a creator , God is the law giver.


Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law none of all flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,


you can't undo sin it only piles up



I've never claimed anywhere that Jesus is NOT the way, truth and life, since he represents 'God' as his anointed Messenger. If the wages of 'sin' is 'death'....what are the wages of 'right conduct'? :) - put your thinking cap on...........
you need to know you can't earn heaven

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,



not quite,....we've already shown the insanity of ECT, its not becoming of a Good and Loving Deity.
ECT is biblical ,don't really care what buddha thinks.




Now 'heaven' yes....since in the presence of 'God'....there is always 'heaven', being that pure and beautiful realm of 'God-consciousness'. Remember,...Spirit is OMNIPRESENT :) 'Heaven' is HERE & NOW. The 'I AM' of pure Awareness is ever being itself, all-ways. The Allness of God ever IS.


this is your heaven


Your passage above, clearly supports 'karma'. Thanks for sharing :) - read it again carefully.....wrath is only 'stored up' by those who are wilfull rebels and sinners. The wages of sin is death, right? He will render to each according to their karma. To those who DO WELL, and actively SEEK for glory and immortality,....what does God give them? TO those who are purely selfish and do NOT the truth, but only do WRONG....they reap what they sow. The options of Life or Death are given by 'God' to all conscious beings to choose, but in the meantime...AS LONG AS THERE IS ACTION of any kind....there is 'karma' and the consequences of various kinds and qualities of action, which must be effected because that is how the law of action works. Its pretty basic and universal....and there will be different modifying factors and conditional effects per each individual action.

This is why in the ultimate and perfect sense, only 'God' can rightfully judge and adjudicate every soul, as their case comes before the divine tribunals. God renders the most perfect judgments, wholly just and merciful, allowing all the opportunity to fulfill their purpose for being, even while giving a certain measure of free will liberty. The universal axiom holds,....."he will give to each one according to their works". - I dont see anytime when this standard rule will no longer apply, because as long as there are actions...there will continue to be the effects and consequences of thought, word and deed.
:nono:
you missed the key part about repentance
Rom 2:5 But according to your hardness and your impenitent heart...

not by works but by grace

Eph_2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,