PDA

View Full Version : Can we improve upon what Jesus said?



Krsto
February 24th, 2016, 10:24 AM
Any religion which relies on ancient text understands those speaking or writing at the time weren't perfect and it's theoretically possible to improve upon their ethic. If Muslims realized this the Islam of today wouldn't have so many problems. St. Paul can be passed off as a misogynist and so we allow for female elders in our churches. But Jesus? Wasn't he perfect? In reality what pastor when confronted with a woman who is being abused by her husband doesn't secretly believe he wished Jesus would have added the phrase "and abuse" to "I allow divorce only for unfaithfulness." How many pastors say to their battered parishioners, "I know Jesus never allowed divorce for abuse but if you do divorce for that reason I'm certainly going to understand and won't judge you."? Why don't we just come right out and say to the world that we can improve upon the religion that Jesus gave us and allow for divorce for abuse? What nuckle-headed Fundamentalist among us is going to say our civil laws allowing divorce for abuse aren't more Christian and Christ-like than a legalistic pastor who won't counsel a battered wife to dump the bastard she married?

In reality, it might be quite possible that if someone at the time listening to Jesus had raised his hand and asked, "What about physical abuse? Can't women divorce for that?" Jesus would have said, "Oh yeah, that too." We also must recognize that while Jesus was the incarnation of God (however you want to understand that), he was subject to human limitation, including not being able to anticipate every objection to his teachings. Also, what we know of what he said has been determined by fallible humans putting together a record of his teachings decades after the fact based on quite a variety of oral traditions. It could very well be that Jesus said, "and abuse" but that just wasn't important enough in their paternalistic culture to be preserved until the end of the first century when the Gospels were being written or collated.

Evangelicals say that the scriptures are without error, but in reality act as if there are errors when they allow for divorce for abuse in those churches where the pastors have a lot of control.

Krsto
February 26th, 2016, 08:55 PM
bump

patrick jane
February 26th, 2016, 08:57 PM
bumpJesus DID improve what Jesus said in His earthly ministry. Jesus came to Paul with numerous revelations Acts 9:6 KJV

patrick jane
February 26th, 2016, 09:02 PM
"I know Jesus never allowed divorce for abuse but if you do divorce for that reason I'm certainly going to understand and won't judge you."? Why don't we just come right out and say to the world that we can improve upon the religion that Jesus gave us and allow for divorce for abuse? What nuckle-headed Fundamentalist among us is going to say our civil laws allowing divorce for abuse aren't more Christian and Christ-like than a legalistic pastor who won't counsel a battered wife to dump the bastard she married?

In reality, it might be quite possible that if someone at the time listening to Jesus had raised his hand and asked, "What about physical abuse? Can't women divorce for that?" Jesus would have said, "Oh yeah, that too." We also must recognize that while Jesus was the incarnation of God (however you want to understand that), he was subject to human limitation, including not being able to anticipate every objection to his teachings. Also, what we know of what he said has been determined by fallible humans putting together a record of his teachings decades after the fact based on quite a variety of oral traditions. It could very well be that Jesus said, "and abuse" but that just wasn't important enough in their paternalistic culture to be preserved until the end of the first century when the Gospels were being written or collated.

Evangelicals say that the scriptures are without error, but in reality act as if there are errors when they allow for divorce for abuse in those churches where the pastors have a lot of control.
Galatians 1:8 KJV -

egyptianmuslim
February 29th, 2016, 02:50 PM
Krsto, please explain what do you wrote about Islam.

Krsto
March 7th, 2016, 10:36 AM
Jesus DID improve what Jesus said in His earthly ministry. Jesus came to Paul with numerous revelations Acts 9:6 KJV

Well sure, but the question is can we improve upon what Jesus said? Isn't every pastor who sides with the battered wife against the words of Jesus basically doing just that? How many pastors do you know that are knuckle-headed enough to advise the battered wife to remain and keep taking the abuse like a good little wifey that Jesus would be proud of? How do we know that Jesus wouldn't say to that bone-headed pastor he's an idiot for not counseling the battered wife to run from the abuser? You do realize that we don't have all of the teachings of Jesus available to us? It says so right in one of the Gospels. Right?

Krsto
March 7th, 2016, 10:40 AM
Galatians 1:8 KJV -

Are you suggesting I'm "preaching another Gospel"? I'm not preaching a Gospel, I'm asking if Jesus' standard for when divorce is allowed could be improved upon. The Gospel is not a standard, it's the power to be set free from sin and bondage. "Salvation" in biblical parlance. Sorry for your confusion.

jamie
March 7th, 2016, 08:12 PM
...I'm asking if Jesus' standard for when divorce is allowed could be improved upon.


The answer is no. Jesus was born under the law and he was sent to those who were under the law and the precepts of the law could not be changed.

However, Paul was allowed to give new instructions about divorce.


But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace.
(1 Corinthians 7:15)

jamie
March 7th, 2016, 08:16 PM
St. Paul can be passed off as a misogynist...


Why do you say that?

Krsto
March 7th, 2016, 08:18 PM
The answer is no. Jesus was born under the law and he was sent to those who were under the law and the precepts of the law could not be changed.

However, Paul was allowed to give new instructions about divorce.


But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace.
(1 Corinthians 7:15)

Well Jesus changed a lot of things while under the law and Paul didn't address the issue I've just raised.

Krsto
March 7th, 2016, 08:19 PM
Why do you say that?

He quoted the "fact" eve was formed from Adam to justify women not teaching. He doesn't trust women to be in leadership.

jamie
March 7th, 2016, 10:40 PM
He quoted the "fact" eve was formed from Adam to justify women not teaching. He doesn't trust women to be in leadership.


Paul taught a husband is the head of his wife, Christ is the head of the man and God is the head of Christ. Why do you have a problem with that?

jamie
March 7th, 2016, 10:43 PM
Well Jesus changed a lot of things while under the law and Paul didn't address the issue I've just raised.


Jesus taught the correct interpretation of the law which the Pharisees had perverted. He also offered them the kingdom of God.

Krsto
March 7th, 2016, 10:43 PM
Paul taught a husband is the head of his wife, Christ is the head of the man and God is the head of Christ. Why do you have a problem with that?

Nothing as long as that isn't used for justification for wife abuse that a wife is encouraged to suffer rather than divorce. Why do you have a problem with a battered wife leaving her husband?

jamie
March 7th, 2016, 10:48 PM
Nothing as long as that isn't used for justification for wife abuse that a wife is encouraged to suffer rather than divorce. Why do you have a problem with a battered wife leaving her husband?


Here is the essence of what Paul said.


But God has called us to peace. (1 Corinthians 7:15)