PDA

View Full Version : Hall of Fame inductees ~12-20-2003



Knight
December 20th, 2003, 02:24 PM
ARCHIVE: The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=993#post993)

The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=208592#post208592)

BillyBob
December 20th, 2003, 02:58 PM
The first one doesn't come up. I don't think you posted the 'url' properly.

[I checked] :D

Z Man
December 20th, 2003, 03:20 PM
Is Freak the only one capable of producing such "famous" threads?

:zman:

BillyBob
December 20th, 2003, 03:21 PM
Yes. :think:

Knight
December 20th, 2003, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Z Man
Is Freak the only one capable of producing such "famous" threads?

:zman: Nomiate any thread you feel is worthy. (http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11475)

Maybe Freak is the only one that pays attention. :D ;)

Knight
December 20th, 2003, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob
The first one doesn't come up. I don't think you posted the 'url' properly.

[I checked] :D Fixed it... thanks!

Z Man
December 20th, 2003, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by Knight
Nomiate any thread you feel is worthy. (http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11475)
Great! I nominate all the threads that I started! :D

BTW, I hope you're not as bias in picking out these threads as you are with the POTD. It seems that I can't achieve the great POTD title because I believe in predestination. Is that true mister? :think:

c.moore
December 20th, 2003, 03:45 PM
That is nothing compare to the hall of fame Freak will get for casting out demons, and getting people saved set free, healed , and learning about the truth of the gospel through Freak ministry.

Thank you freak for starting a long and sorry to say a sad false message of those who think a water baptism saves.
:thumb: :up: :)

God Bless you
Shalom

ps: see you when you come back to Germany in January 2004.

Sozo
December 20th, 2003, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Z Man
It seems that I can't achieve the great POTD title because I believe in predestination. Is that true mister? :think:

I believe in predestination and have had several POTDs

Knight
December 20th, 2003, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Z Man
Great! I nominate all the threads that I started! :D

BTW, I hope you're not as bias in picking out these threads as you are with the POTD. It seems that I can't achieve the great POTD title because I believe in predestination. Is that true mister? :think: Of course I am biased!

TOL is geared toward a certain theology. We are VERY bias in promoting that theology. TOL has NEVER billed itself as a "all view points are equal" website.

All view points aren't equal.... and some are just plain stupid. :D

Z Man
December 20th, 2003, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by Knight
Of course I am biased!

TOL is geared toward a certain theology...
TOL, or just you? :p

Z Man
December 20th, 2003, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Sozo
I believe in predestination and have had several POTDs
Well why don't you brag about it Sozo!

:p

BillyBob
December 20th, 2003, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by Z Man
Great! I nominate all the threads that I started! :D

BTW, I hope you're not as bias in picking out these threads as you are with the POTD. It seems that I can't achieve the great POTD title because I believe in predestination. Is that true mister? :think:


I'm a heretic and I've had a bunch of POTD's. :D

Maybe you outta hone your writing skills. Or just become outlandish, it seems to work well for Freak. :freak:

Knight
December 20th, 2003, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by Z Man
TOL, or just you? :p BOTH. :)

Sozo
December 20th, 2003, 03:51 PM
Originally posted by Z Man
Well why don't you brag about it Sozo!

:p

:chuckle:

CryTears
December 20th, 2003, 03:56 PM
Great threads
Good job
FReak!

Sorry I missed them, you are probably right on the baptism but it makes me feel better if all my peoples get baptised. Just in case.

SOTK
December 20th, 2003, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by Knight
ARCHIVE: The Heretics Message to the World:Be Baptized to be Saved! (http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=993#post993)

The Ever Present Problem of Atheism (http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=208592#post208592)

:thumb:

Freak
December 20th, 2003, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by crytahvn
Great threads
Good job
Freak!

Sorry I missed them, you are probably right on the baptism but it makes me feel better if all my peoples get baptised. Just in case. Thanks, my good friend. As you can see I was one of scores of TOLer's who participated in these threads. These two are true TOL classics. :up:

Freak
December 20th, 2003, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by c.moore
That is nothing compare to the hall of fame Freak will get for casting out demons, and getting people saved set free, healed , and learning about the truth of the gospel through Freak ministry.

Thank you freak for starting a long and sorry to say a sad false message of those who think a water baptism saves.
:thumb: :up: :)

God Bless you
Shalom

ps: see you when you come back to Germany in January 2004. Thanks for the kind words my brother in Jesus. Elizabeth and I look forward to seeing you and everyone else, here in a few weeks. May Jesus be glorified!!

Freak
December 20th, 2003, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by Knight
Of course I am biased!

TOL is geared toward a certain theology. We are VERY bias in promoting that theology. TOL has NEVER billed itself as a "all view points are equal" website.

All view points aren't equal.... and some are just plain stupid. :D :thumb:

Bob Enyart
December 20th, 2003, 07:48 PM
Z Man: "BTW, I hope you're not as biased in picking out these threads as you are with the POTD. It seems that I can't achieve the great POTD title because I believe in predestination. Is that true mister? "

If predestination is true, then of course you're complaining to the wrong administrator.

If predestination is not true, then of course your complaining is wrong.

Any questions?

And to Freak: In Chicago they've announced they're going to exorcise that baseball that lost the Cubs the playoffs. Just an FYI in case you want to apply.

-Bob Enyart

Freak
December 20th, 2003, 07:54 PM
Originally posted by Bob Enyart
And to Freak: In Chicago they've announced they're going to exorcise that baseball that lost the Cubs the playoffs. That's interesting.


Just an FYI in case you want to apply.

-Bob Enyart I have my hands full dealing with people who are tormented by demons.

As soon as they left the synagogue, they went with James and John to the home of Simon and Andrew. Simon's mother-in-law was in bed with a fever, and they told Jesus about her. So he went to her, took her hand and helped her up. The fever left her and she began to wait on them.
That evening after sunset the people brought to Jesus all the sick and demon-possessed. The whole town gathered at the door, and Jesus healed many who had various diseases. He also drove out many demons...

The need for Jesus is great. I'll pass on dealing with the object (the baseball). Humanity is much more important to God. :up:

Freak
December 20th, 2003, 07:57 PM
Bob, btw, perhaps you'd like to take a jab at this:

Freakazoid (http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11278&perpage=15&pagenumber=1)

(click on the icon)

Z Man
December 20th, 2003, 08:51 PM
Bob,

If freewill is right, then you don't need Christ.

If freewill is wrong, then of course you're wrong.

Any questions?

BillyBob
December 20th, 2003, 09:31 PM
If freewill is wrong, then all the evangelism in world won't make one bit of difference, in which case, let's close the churches and fire the Pastors.

If predestination is correct, then some people are born destined to hell, no matter what, in which case, let's close the churches and fire the pastors.

PREDESTINATION IS INSANE!

Z Man
December 20th, 2003, 11:41 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob
PREDESTINATION IS INSANE!
According to the Bible, predestination is real.

Z Man
December 20th, 2003, 11:45 PM
BTW,

Why is it everytime that I post on a thread, no matter what the subject is, somebody always wants to debate with me about predestination? What gives? Aren't there other "calvinists" you guys can pester?

Freak
December 21st, 2003, 03:34 AM
Originally posted by Z Man
According to the Bible, predestination is real. Yep, it sure is. All one has to do is take a peek at Ephesians 1.

Servo
December 21st, 2003, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by Freak
Yep, it sure is. All one has to do is take a peek at Ephesians 1.

Just because the word "predestined " is mentioned does not mean everything is predestined. Read the chapter in context. Paul is writing to the saints who are in Ephesus, people who are already "saved".

The Lord predestined us to win in the end.

CryTears
December 21st, 2003, 08:16 PM
what about the statement concerning every hair on your head is numbered?

Stryfe
December 21st, 2003, 09:04 PM
This one wonders if images can be nominated as well?

BillyBob
December 21st, 2003, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by Z Man
According to the Bible, predestination is real.

I know, but I was 'Predestined' to post that, I couldn't help myself. :D

Freak
December 22nd, 2003, 01:59 AM
Originally posted by Shimei
Just because the word "predestined " is mentioned does not mean everything is predestined. I can see that you're still on milk.


The Lord predestined us to win in the end. Now that's a deep statement. :rolleyes:

Servo
December 22nd, 2003, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by Freak
I can see that you're still on milk.

Now that's a deep statement. :rolleyes:

A few things are predestined Freak, but God do not predestine everything.

Freak, you should try some milk, but it seems you are lactose intolerant.

CryTears
December 22nd, 2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Shimei
A few things are predestined Freak, but God do not predestine everything.

Freak, you should try some milk, but it seems you are lactose intolerant.

LOL I like you both but ya got to admit Freak this was funny.

Knight
December 22nd, 2003, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by Z Man
Bob,

If freewill is right, then you don't need Christ.

If freewill is wrong, then of course you're wrong.

Any questions? Huh? :confused:

Z Man.... when making a "come back" try to make a "come back" that makes sense.

Having freewill doesn't mean having the freewill to get into heaven on your own accord without Christ or the freewill to force your way into heaven as an unrepentant sinner no more than freewill would mean having the freewill to defy gravity.

Therefore... your comment to Bob doesn't even address the argument in a way that is accurate to either side of the debate.

Better luck next time. :up:

Z Man
December 22nd, 2003, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by Knight
Having freewill doesn't mean having the freewill to get into heaven on your own accord without Christ or the freewill to force your way into heaven as an unrepentant sinner no more than freewill would mean having the freewill to defy gravity.
If you have the freedom to choose or reject Christ, then you have the kind of freedom it takes to defy sin. That freedom doesn't exist. The Bible makes it clear that we are slaves to sin. We do what our nature tells us to do; sin. And after God saves us, we then become slaves to Him and righteousness. So, free will doesn't exist either way. It can't because we are slaves either to sin or Christ.

Servo
December 22nd, 2003, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by Z Man
If you have the freedom to choose or reject Christ, then you have the kind of freedom it takes to defy sin. That freedom doesn't exist. The Bible makes it clear that we are slaves to sin. We do what our nature tells us to do; sin. And after God saves us, we then become slaves to Him and righteousness. So, free will doesn't exist either way. It can't because we are slaves either to sin or Christ.

Then it seems to me that we are more like programmed robots, not slaves. Even a slave can make an attempt to run away and be free.

Z Man
December 22nd, 2003, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Shimei
Even a slave can make an attempt to run away and be free.
Do you know of anybody who has the power, or the desire, to defeat sin on their own? No one on earth is born loving God, or wanting to be holy and blameless in His sight. All men are sinful and continually have evil thoughts in their hearts and minds.

The only way anybody ever has any hope of being freed from sin is if God saves them. That's what the whole Gospel message is about!

Servo
December 22nd, 2003, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by Z Man
Do you know of anybody who has the power, or the desire, to defeat sin on their own? No one on earth is born loving God, or wanting to be holy and blameless in His sight. All men are sinful and continually have evil thoughts in their hearts and minds.

The only way anybody ever has any hope of being freed from sin is if God saves them. That's what the whole Gospel message is about!

I know that Jesus is the only way and that He can save us and forgive us for our sins. But we all have a choice in the matter. We are not forced to love and choose God. Forced love is not love.

Z Man
December 22nd, 2003, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Shimei
I know that Jesus is the only way and that He can save us and forgive us for our sins. But we all have a choice in the matter. We are not forced to love and choose God. Forced love is not love.
If we all have a choice in the matter, than those who choose Christ have bragging rights over those who reject.

And being saved by God is not forced love. He doesn't force anyone to serve Him, for when He saves a person, they gladly serve and worship Him with all their heart! Being saved is a wonderful thing, and those who are blessed to receive God's mercies and grace devote their lives to Him forever.

Servo
December 22nd, 2003, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by Z Man
If we all have a choice in the matter, than those who choose Christ have bragging rights over those who reject.

And being saved by God is not forced love. He doesn't force anyone to serve Him, for when He saves a person, they gladly serve and worship Him with all their heart! Being saved is a wonderful thing, and those who are blessed to receive God's mercies and grace devote their lives to Him forever.

Is there a way for a Calvinist to not contradict themselves?

God doesn’t force anyone to serve Him, but we have no choice in the matter because God chooses some of us to serve Him.

Z Man
December 23rd, 2003, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by Shimei
Is there a way for a Calvinist to not contradict themselves?

God doesn’t force anyone to serve Him, but we have no choice in the matter because God chooses some of us to serve Him.
There is no contridiction in what I've said. You've simply misquoted me, that's all.

Your choice of words are naive in understanding the grace of God. God doesn't force anyone to serve Him. He merely opens their eyes to the Truth, and they gladly follow. No man has a choice in the matter because no man desires salvation of thier own will. They want sin and only sin. Every man is born hating God. Our minds are carnal and we cannot please God. For us to willingly choose Christ, He must free our will from the bondage of sin. Then, and only then, can man choose Christ. And no one whom God saves will ever reject Him. Charles Spurgeon said it best:

No sooner is the soul quickened than it at once discovers its lost estate; its horrified threat! It looks for a refuge, and believing Christ to be a suitable one, flees to Him and reposes in Him.

Mateo
December 23rd, 2003, 03:17 AM
B.B. suggested:

"let's close the churches and fire the Pastors."

Mateo's thinkin':

B.B. for President. If we can ditch these guys (and with the recent advent of P.C. culture, gals) everyone would then be forced to read God's word for themselves if they wanted to know what He said.

P.S. I nominate most everything Kronus, Behira, and Big Finn have posted.

CryTears
December 23rd, 2003, 03:27 AM
I don't think we are all born bad or wanting sin. I wasn't :D
no we are capable of sin.
I think we have free will.
I believe in some predistination.
God says he knows even the number of the hair on our head.

This confuses me because one time I read scripture I think, well why bother with anything everything is predestined.
The next time I read it I think God blesses some people to see things and know things that others do not know. He does this for a reason.
Then sometimes I think of it as a parent/child. We can predict what the child will do or what will happen. Such as a child keeps riding their bike in the street we tell them 'if you keep that up you will be ran over some day." One day the child is run over.
So God has figured out the traps of human beings and warned us and if we continue on with that behavior then expect the consequences He stated.
I get the message from scripture that some people are given the gift of right and wrong however it is applied in their life, then when they knowingly go against God they will be judged harsher than when they did not know.
I think there are bad seeds born and children of Satan on earth.
They thrive on evil.
One scripture I read gave me the impression that one can see a child from early on and recognize the child as evil.

Servo
December 23rd, 2003, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by Z Man
There is no contridiction in what I've said. You've simply misquoted me, that's all.

Your choice of words are naive in understanding the grace of God. God doesn't force anyone to serve Him. He merely opens their eyes to the Truth, and they gladly follow. No man has a choice in the matter because no man desires salvation of thier own will. They want sin and only sin. Every man is born hating God. Our minds are carnal and we cannot please God. For us to willingly choose Christ, He must free our will from the bondage of sin. Then, and only then, can man choose Christ. And no one whom God saves will ever reject Him. Charles Spurgeon said it best:

No sooner is the soul quickened than it at once discovers its lost estate; its horrified threat! It looks for a refuge, and believing Christ to be a suitable one, flees to Him and reposes in Him.

But can you still admit that God chooses some and rejects others? It is all predestined, correct?

Are you going to say it is mans fault that God rejects them? How can it be a certain man's fault if that man rejects God but he does so because God predestined it to be so?

Z Man
December 23rd, 2003, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by Shimei
But can you still admit that God chooses some and rejects others? It is all predestined, correct?

Are you going to say it is mans fault that God rejects them? How can it be a certain man's fault if that man rejects God but he does so because God predestined it to be so?
It is man's fault for his own damnation! No one is innocent! Everybody on this planet deserves to go to hell! It's not that God predestines people to hell, but rather predestines people to salvation. Those whom He has not chosen simply receive what we all should receive!

Those who are saved by the grace of God are blessed with an amazing gift! Knowing this humbles me more greatly than any other knowledge or experience that I have obtained. All I can do is be amazed and thank God continually for His saving grace and mercies upon me. Who am I that God is mindful of me? I've done nothing different from anyone else, yet God loved me anyways and it pleases Him to save me. It blows my mind...

Sozo
December 23rd, 2003, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by Z Man

Why is it everytime that I post on a thread, no matter what the subject is, somebody always wants to debate with me about predestination? What gives? Aren't there other "calvinists" you guys can pester?

God has chosen us to pester you!

Knight
December 23rd, 2003, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Z Man
It is man's fault for his own damnation! No one is innocent! Everybody on this planet deserves to go to hell! It's not that God predestines people to hell, but rather predestines people to salvation. Those whom He has not chosen simply receive what we all should receive! I laugh every time I read that.

Certainly you are smart enough to figure out what your own words mean... right?

If God only predestines SOME to salvation then any of the "others" who are NOT predestined to salvation are indeed predestined to damnation. You cannot have your cake and eat it to.

Z Man
December 23rd, 2003, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by Sozo
God has chosen us to pester you!
In that case, I am grateful and humbled that God has found favor in me to instruct you all in the path of righteousness.

:chuckle:

Z Man
December 23rd, 2003, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by Knight
I laugh every time I read that.

Certainly you are smart enough to figure out what your own words mean... right?

If God only predestines SOME to salvation then any of the "others" who are NOT predestined to salvation are indeed predestined to damnation. You cannot have your cake and eat it to.
Either way, no man goes to hell innocent.

Sozo
December 23rd, 2003, 06:39 PM
Originally posted by Z Man
Either way, no man goes to hell innocent.

Then no man goes to hell guilty.

Servo
December 23rd, 2003, 10:32 PM
Originally posted by Z Man
In that case, I am grateful and humbled that God has found favor in me to instruct you all in the path of righteousness.

:chuckle:

How can you be grateful and humbled? You had nothing to do with it if God already predestined it.

Are you saying you are happy that God set up a plan for you to feel grateful and humbled because God made you post some posts on TOL and God made all of us read your predestined posts and God predestined us to think and respond a certain way as to make you feel grateful and humbled?

God also predestined me to believe in free will and post this response. Now I feel grateful and SORT OF humble! AHHH!!!!!

Why is God doing (already did) this????

God will now (I mean already did) make Z-man respond with a few sentences that contradict each other. Or will HE???? :shocked:

Z Man
December 24th, 2003, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by Shimei
How can you be grateful and humbled? You had nothing to do with it if God already predestined it.

Are you saying you are happy that God set up a plan for you to feel grateful and humbled because God made you post some posts on TOL and God made all of us read your predestined posts and God predestined us to think and respond a certain way as to make you feel grateful and humbled?

God also predestined me to believe in free will and post this response. Now I feel grateful and SORT OF humble! AHHH!!!!!

Why is God doing (already did) this????

God will now (I mean already did) make Z-man respond with a few sentences that contradict each other. Or will HE???? :shocked:
LOL! Chill out dude, it was just a joke! :chuckle:

Knight
December 24th, 2003, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Sozo
Then no man goes to hell guilty. Bada bing... bada boom! :D

Bob Enyart
December 24th, 2003, 11:53 AM
Hey Z Man, we both posted follow ups to your original chiding of Knight: "BTW, I hope you're not as biased in picking out these threads as you are with the POTD. It seems that I can't achieve the great POTD title because I believe in predestination. Is that true mister? "

Let’s contrast our two posts. Mine is true from YOUR perspective, whereas your rebuttal is true only if YOUR perspective is true, which of course is what we were sparring about.

I wrote to you that:
If predestination is true, then you're complaining to the wrong administrator.
If predestination is not true, then your complaining is wrong.
Any questions?

You wrote back to me:
If freewill is right, then you don't need Christ.
If freewill is wrong, then of course you're wrong.

If you want to take a second shot at a pity response to my couplet, I’d enjoy reading it. To clarify my point, I live and think consistently with free will, while I see you and many Calvinists living in continual dissonance with your theology. Thanks, -Bob Enyart

Z Man
December 24th, 2003, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Bob Enyart
If you want to take a second shot at a pity response to my couplet, I’d enjoy reading it. To clarify my point, I live and think consistently with free will, while I see you and many Calvinists living in continual dissonance with your theology. Thanks, -Bob Enyart
I don't think this is the right place to debate about predestination. If you'd like to start a thread somewhere else, I'd be more than happy to chat with you there.

BTW, you're not some kind of superhuman who can make choices apart from their nature. You're no better than the rest of mankind. Some people will not give in to Christ. Their problem is the same exact problem that plagues all of mankind; the enslavement of sin. You would have never believed in Christ had He not bestowed His grace upon you and opened your heart and mind to His calling.

You didn't choose Christ, He choose you.

Bob Enyart
December 24th, 2003, 11:24 PM
Z Man just wrote: I don't think this is the right place to debate about predestination...
... You didn't choose Christ, He choose you.

Hey Z Man, think about all those times when you didn't think of just the right thing to say, until it was too late. As soon as the perfect moment had passed, just after you hung up the phone, or had left the meeting, or had moved on to the next point, or were driving home, only then did you think of just the right thing to say.

What's up with that? Do you think that's God just playing with your head? Always predestining that you'd have just the right response, but just a minute too late? Timing's everything you know. Do you think it was God who had you write that we shouldn't debate predestination in this thread, and then move you irresistibly to go ahead and debate it anyway, and that, while avoiding my question? What's up with that? What do you Calvinists call it, Irresistible Disgrace?

In that intimate Last Supper talk with His disciples, Jesus was encouraging them to press on after His absence. And He heartened them reminding each one that Jesus had personally selected them. “Peter, follow Me.” “Andrew, Bartholomew, follow Me.” “You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you.” That was the meaning of Christ’s words. Of course, you can twist them to turn Him into a Creator who created millions of people to torment them in Hell with no possible way out.

Perhaps we can both agree that in the afterlife, there will be sorrow for those who attribute to God the wickedness that He despises.

Sincerely, -Bob Enyart

Z Man
December 25th, 2003, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by Bob Enyart
In that intimate Last Supper talk with His disciples, Jesus was encouraging them to press on after His absence. And He heartened them reminding each one that Jesus had personally selected them. “Peter, follow Me.” “Andrew, Bartholomew, follow Me.” “You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you.” That was the meaning of Christ’s words. Of course, you can twist them to turn Him into a Creator who created millions of people to torment them in Hell with no possible way out.
Far be it from God to destroy what He creates! I mean, who does He think He is? He has no right to predestine people to hell!

:rolleyes:

Matt 20:15
"Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me?"

Psalm 115:3
Our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.

Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing; and He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand or say to Him, "What are you doing?"

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the Lord, do all these things.'

Poly
December 25th, 2003, 01:47 PM
Originally posted by Z Man
Far be it from God to destroy what He creates! I mean, who does He think He is? He has no right to predestine people to hell!

:rolleyes:


Do you hear yourself? You are saying God created something for the sole purpose of destroying it.
So God creates man, predestines that man to be evil, and decides to punish man for the evil He predestined for Man. Unless He just gets a warped kick out of it, why couldn't He have just saved himself the trouble and not made man at all? Better yet, if He truly hates sin, just as He says He does, and felt the need to pre-program man, why not program them to do all good?

Z Man
December 25th, 2003, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by Poly
Do you hear yourself? You are saying God created something for the sole purpose of destroying it.
I'm just repeating what the Bible has already established.

Romans 9:22-23
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory...

So God creates man, predestines that man to be evil, and decides to punish man for the evil He predestined for Man. Unless He just gets a warped kick out of it, why couldn't He have just saved himself the trouble and not made man at all? Better yet, if He truly hates sin, just as He says He does, and felt the need to pre-program man, why not program them to do all good?
That's a good question, and no man has the answer to that. We'll find out when we see Him face to face.

My best effort to answer this question would be that everything God does is to display His glory. As John Piper has put it:

The chief end of God is to glorify God and enjoy Himself forever. God does all things for His own sake. "For My own sake, for My own sake, I do it....My glory I will not give to another." (Isaiah 48:11) This is love, because in pursuing the praise of His name in the hearts of His people, He commands the very thing that completes our joy. God is the one being in the universe for whom self-exaltation is the highest virtue and the most loving act.

The happiness of God in God is the foundation of our happiness in God. If God did not joyfully uphold and display His glory, the ground of our joy would be gone. God's pursuit of praise from us and our pursuit of pleasure in Him are in perfect harmony.

For God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him.

- Desiring God, John Piper

Lighthouse
September 5th, 2004, 02:13 AM
Whenever I read, or hear, the arguments for Calvinism, from a Calvinist, my head hurts.

Z Man
September 5th, 2004, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by lighthouse

Whenever I read, or hear, the arguments for Calvinism, from a Calvinist, my head hurts.
I don't argue for 'Calvinism'; I simply argue for the truth of God's Word. Call that whatever you wish...

Lighthouse
September 5th, 2004, 10:17 PM
FIne. call it whatever you want. It's still circular enough to make my brain shut down if I listen to it for too long. And even moreso if I try to make sense of it, which is impossible.

Z Man
September 5th, 2004, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by lighthouse

FIne. call it whatever you want. It's still circular enough to make my brain shut down if I listen to it for too long. And even moreso if I try to make sense of it, which is impossible.
It's impossible for you to understand the Word of God? :confused: