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CherubRam
November 17th, 2015, 07:33 AM
Imagine No Religion

Atheist have faith that Atheism is the answer to having a civil world. They believe that religion is the cause for the worlds social ills.

Atheist do not take into account that living by Godly precepts also benefits them. Godly precepts have their origins in the religion of Judaism, not Atheism, it is a matter of historical fact.

These days there are people who profess their belief in a God, but actually mean that they believe in God as a concept of good and evil. This begs the question; do you believe in God as a concept, or do you believe He is a living being? It is a known fact that there are religious leaders that are Atheist, and also believe God is a concept.




Here is a short list of modern day Atheist leaders.

Adolf Hitler acknowledged that he abhorred organized religion. There is evidence that he engaged in “nazi mysticism” or occultism. Adolf Hitler was raised a Catholic, he became a illuminist, and while the dictator of Germany he became an Atheist.

Joseph Stalin (Russian Dictator)
Mao ZeDong (Chinese dictator)
Pol Pot (Cambodian dictator)
Slobodan Milosevic (Serbian Dictator)
Vladimir Ilyich Lenin (Russian dictator)
Benito Mussolini (Italian dictator)
Friedrich Nietzsche (Philosopher)
Napoleon Bonaparte: He claimed that “all religions have been made by men”

Kim Jong Il: Atheist, although in North Korea he and his father are deified. A strange twist.

Jim Jones: Jim Jones was quoted as saying he used his church to bring people to atheism.

Tito (Yugoslavia 1945-1987)
Suharto (Communists 1967-66)
Ante Pavelic (Croatia 1941-45)
Ho Chi Min (Vietnam 1953-56)

False Prophet
November 17th, 2015, 09:12 AM
You've got to believe in something.

Jose Fly
November 17th, 2015, 11:04 AM
So I guess then the counter would be to post the long list of evil theistic leaders, right? At the very least we can point to ISIS. They believe in a god, don't they? :think:

God's Truth
November 17th, 2015, 11:36 AM
So I guess then the counter would be to post the long list of evil theistic leaders, right? At the very least we can point to ISIS. They believe in a god, don't they? :think:

It is good to show that there are evil people and that they are that way because they do not obey Jesus.

HisServant
November 17th, 2015, 12:25 PM
Whether one is religious or not has nothing to do with whether they are a Christian.

IMNSHO, Religion is one of the great evils of this world.

Quincy
November 17th, 2015, 01:39 PM
Depending on your culture, religion is actually a good thing. Some people need to fear almighty retribution before they'd bother to maintain even a shadow of moral behavior.

CherubRam
November 17th, 2015, 03:48 PM
So I guess then the counter would be to post the long list of evil theistic leaders, right? At the very least we can point to ISIS. They believe in a god, don't they? :think:
Islam is the only religion presently at war with humanity. As for the past theistic leaders, like I said, there are many who believe God is a concept. In other words, they do not really believe. They are Atheist using religion for a platform.

Jose Fly
November 17th, 2015, 03:57 PM
Islam is the only religion presently at war with humanity.

But they are theists, and using the logic you outlined in the OP, are reflective of theism as a whole.


As for the past theistic leaders, like I said, there are many who believe God is a concept. In other words, they do not really believe. They are Atheist using religion for a platform.

Your delusion is noted.

Nick M
November 17th, 2015, 04:07 PM
Depending on your culture, religion is actually a good thing. Some people need to fear almighty retribution before they'd bother to maintain even a shadow of moral behavior.


Galatians 3

24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

However, some people still can't contain themselves when told You shall not murder. So God endorses governments to enforce justice.

http://host.jwcinc.net/1170501/ojsimpson2.jpg

CherubRam
November 17th, 2015, 04:34 PM
But they are theists, and using the logic you outlined in the OP, are reflective of theism as a whole.

Your delusion is noted.
If a person does not know the difference between sheep and goats, then they will not see a difference.
Islam is a violent man made religion. The violent Judaeo religious leaders in the past were not the faithful, they were Atheist. Atheist in religion is a real problem, it is not a make believe problem.

This is the reality of this world, for the past 100 years, Atheism and Islam have been the problem.

CherubRam
November 17th, 2015, 08:23 PM
In the list of Atheist leaders on page #1, what do those Atheist share in common?

patrick jane
November 17th, 2015, 08:28 PM
Imagine no religion ? Didn't John Lennon sing that ?

20779

CherubRam
November 17th, 2015, 08:31 PM
Imagine no religion ? Didn't John Lennon sing that ?

20779

Yes he did. In the list of Atheist leaders on page #1, what do those Atheist share in common?

Bradley D
November 17th, 2015, 10:58 PM
Many may claim to be atheist, but God is on their mind. They seem to hate the fact that anyone believes in God. A religion is also someone who has a set of beliefs that they and others believe. So even atheism could be described as a religion. I remember after 9/11 I saw a lot of signs everywhere saying "God Bless America." Not too many atheists out there when a calamity hits. Saw a lot of people praying in Paris after this latest atrocity by radicals who do not seem to know their own scripture. For many people to find God they need something in their lives that brings them to their knees.

CherubRam
November 18th, 2015, 04:38 AM
Many may claim to be atheist, but God is on their mind. They seem to hate the fact that anyone believes in God. A religion is also someone who has a set of beliefs that they and others believe. So even atheism could be described as a religion. I remember after 9/11 I saw a lot of signs everywhere saying "God Bless America." Not too many atheists out there when a calamity hits. Saw a lot of people praying in Paris after this latest atrocity by radicals who do not seem to know their own scripture. For many people to find God they need something in their lives that brings them to their knees.
KJV Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

quip
November 18th, 2015, 09:39 AM
This begs the question; do you believe in God as a concept, or do you believe He is a living being?



A concept.

Bradley D
November 18th, 2015, 11:40 PM
A concept.

As a Buddhist you don't believe in a deity do you? You live by a man's philosophy.

exminister
November 19th, 2015, 04:18 AM
Humans are humans. I don't think this list is meaningful at all.

The Old Testament is exhibit A. All leaders of Israel believed in God and each illustrated poor outcomes. That is the point.

My kingdom is not if this world - Jesus

Don't follow leaders, watch parking meters - Dylan

No leader but God.

In this world a Theocracy is at best a failure. At worst a bloodbath.

quip
November 19th, 2015, 09:21 AM
As a Buddhist you don't believe in a deity do you? You live by a man's philosophy.

So do you.....you just refuse to accept it.

SaulToPaul
November 19th, 2015, 10:22 AM
Two top anti-Christ songs of all time:

1. Imagine
2. We are the World

aikido7
November 19th, 2015, 11:32 AM
Both theists and atheists both say WOW !!! when they are struck by something in God’s Creation.

Bradley D
November 19th, 2015, 10:22 PM
So do you.....you just refuse to accept it.

According to you a human being. I do not have any faith in human kind as a higher power.

CherubRam
November 20th, 2015, 05:14 AM
A concept.
Is God real or imagined?
If "GOD" was a concept, then he really does not exist as a real person.

Jonahdog
November 20th, 2015, 05:33 AM
Is God real or imagined?
If "GOD" was a concept, then he really does not exist as a real person.

Imagined, and not a real person.

bsmitts
November 20th, 2015, 06:28 AM
Imagine No Religion

Atheist have faith that Atheism is the answer to having a civil world. They believe that religion is the cause for the worlds social ills.

Atheist do not take into account that living by Godly precepts also benefits them. Godly precepts have their origins in the religion of Judaism, not Atheism, it is a matter of historical fact.

Atheists have faith that humanity itself is the answer to civilization. I can show all day long how humanity is an utter flopping failure. My theory is that atheists simply hate God, and they especially hate Christ. They worship self, but I've seen time and time again just how destructive that kind of mentality is. I used to debate them but got bored of it. It's the same old rinse and repeat again and again. You try to convince them first of the existence of a creator, but then they'll want to immediately trick you into debating issues surrounding the Bible or religion in general. Don't get me wrong. I'm am not ashamed of the gospel, but they simply can't be reasoned with. I know from experience. Don't bother with them.

quip
November 20th, 2015, 06:31 AM
According to you a human being. I do not have any faith in human kind as a higher power.

Thus, you hold no faith in yourself? How sad.

How do you trust yourself enough to make an external spiritual discernment....when you hold such an internal lack faith in your own being/spirit?

Your desire for external validation exposes a weak internal spiritual foundation.

bsmitts
November 20th, 2015, 06:37 AM
Thus, you hold no faith in yourself? How sad.

Excuse me for chiming in, but the reality is I have no "moral" faith in myself apart from God.

quip
November 20th, 2015, 06:47 AM
Excuse me for chiming in, but the reality is I have no "moral" faith in myself apart from God.

...and that is equally as sad.

CherubRam
November 20th, 2015, 07:23 AM
...and that is equally as sad.

That means a person is "MORAL" because of their belief in God. For a person who does not believe in God as a person, "MORALITY" is another mans opinion.

CherubRam
November 20th, 2015, 07:25 AM
Imagined, and not a real person.

Do you have any kind of proof?

CherubRam
November 20th, 2015, 07:30 AM
In the list of Atheist leaders on page #1, what do those Atheist share in common?

Since no one answered, I will tell you. All of the Atheist in the list are infamous killers.

quip
November 20th, 2015, 07:45 AM
That means a person is "MORAL" because of their belief in God. For a person who does not believe in God as a person, "MORALITY" is another mans opinion.

Speaking of options, how many competeing versions of "god" in this world?

You fear your own moral intuition and must rely on the rote memorization and recitation of another's script (re:scripture). Again, sad.

CherubRam
November 20th, 2015, 08:00 AM
Speaking of options, how many competeing versions of "god" in this world?

You fear your own moral intuition and must rely on the rote memorization and recitation of another's script (re:scripture). Again, sad.

The bible is a good source for just and moral laws. What is really sad, is that you do not see it.

exminister
November 20th, 2015, 08:34 AM
Since no one answered, I will tell you. All of the Atheist in the list are infamous killers.

Nietzsche?

CherubRam
November 20th, 2015, 08:58 AM
Nietzsche?

Nietzsche's teachings lead to the death of millions, by those who followed his teachings. Link: http://www.iep.utm.edu/nihilism/

quip
November 20th, 2015, 09:12 AM
The bible is a good source for just and moral laws. What is really sad, is that you do not see it.

:idunno: Oh, I "see" the bible...its influence is ubiquitous (as the Koran elsewhere). Rather, I don't follow nor suffer in defending it by posting insecure threads in its defence.

It's good to see that you claim it as a "good source". I don't entirely disagree, just that it's just one good source out of many.

Can you admit to this ...or must you cling desperately to an exclusive version of morality?

Jonahdog
November 20th, 2015, 09:20 AM
Do you have any kind of proof?

Proof of what? that there is no god? How do you prove a negative? I am convinced there is no proof, nor any evidence of a god. Things claimed as evidence by others---the beauty of the universe, the fine tuning of the universe, love, morality etc. are best explained by other than a divine being. And after hanging around TOL for a while, better explained by either the recorded Middle Eastern myths in TOL's Holy Book, or the god it purports to show.

Jonahdog
November 20th, 2015, 09:22 AM
The bible is a good source for just and moral laws. What is really sad, is that you do not see it.

But you do get to pick and choose those laws right? I assume slavery is out as well as the problem caused by wearing clothing of different fabric.

CherubRam
November 20th, 2015, 11:09 AM
:idunno: Oh, I "see" the bible...its influence is ubiquitous (as the Koran elsewhere). Rather, I don't follow nor suffer in defending it by posting insecure threads in its defence.

It's good to see that you claim it as a "good source". I don't entirely disagree, just that it's just one good source out of many.

Can you admit to this ...or must you cling desperately to an exclusive version of morality?
Since it is the origin of morality and just laws, people have only added their own twist from the source.

CherubRam
November 20th, 2015, 11:13 AM
Proof of what? that there is no god? How do you prove a negative? I am convinced there is no proof, nor any evidence of a god. Things claimed as evidence by others---the beauty of the universe, the fine tuning of the universe, love, morality etc. are best explained by other than a divine being. And after hanging around TOL for a while, better explained by either the recorded Middle Eastern myths in TOL's Holy Book, or the god it purports to show.
Just because there have been evil people who twist the truth, it does not mean you dismiss everything else.

CherubRam
November 20th, 2015, 11:20 AM
But you do get to pick and choose those laws right? I assume slavery is out as well as the problem caused by wearing clothing of different fabric.

Some people became servants because they could not get by otherwise, just like today there are employees. Not everyone can wear wool, and mixing some materials can cause negative chemical reactions.

Ezra 7:10
November 20th, 2015, 12:11 PM
Imagine if there was no religion? What if the atheist's were in charge? I suppose then the whole world would be filled with fools, corruption and terrible evil, "The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good (Psalm 14:1 ESV)."

CherubRam
November 20th, 2015, 01:03 PM
Imagine if there was no religion? What if the atheist's were in charge? I suppose then the whole world would be filled with fools, corruption and terrible evil, "The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good (Psalm 14:1 ESV)."

Historically true.

Bradley D
November 21st, 2015, 12:48 AM
Thus, you hold no faith in yourself? How sad.

How do you trust yourself enough to make an external spiritual discernment....when you hold such an internal lack faith in your own being/spirit?

Your desire for external validation exposes a weak internal spiritual foundation.

I trust in the God given Spirit to guide me. It was my recognition of a weak internal soul that lead me to repent of my wrongs and come to God. Don't you get your internal strength from the words of Buddha.

Jonahdog
November 21st, 2015, 07:07 AM
Some people became servants because they could not get by otherwise, just like today there are employees. Not everyone can wear wool, and mixing some materials can cause negative chemical reactions.

Did I miss something? In the Bible does slavery really mean being an employee? Getting paid in cash money, being able to look elsewhere for work? Having the same human rights as your employer?

And I am so glad my tshirt is all cotton. Phew. Your last sentence is simply a very silly way to suggest Leviticus 19:19 makes sense. but you get an A for effort and for creativity.

It's all still pretty much based on oral myth and the attempt by the Hebrews to keep their tribe together.

CherubRam
November 21st, 2015, 07:22 AM
Did I miss something? In the Bible does slavery really mean being an employee? Getting paid in cash money, being able to look elsewhere for work? Having the same human rights as your employer?

And I am so glad my tshirt is all cotton. Phew. Your last sentence is simply a very silly way to suggest Leviticus 19:19 makes sense. but you get an A for effort and for creativity.

It's all still pretty much based on oral myth and the attempt by the Hebrews to keep their tribe together.
You do not seem to know the difference between myths and facts. When people sold themselves or a relative into bondage they were under contract.
Leviticus 25:48
they retain the right of redemption after they have sold themselves. One of their relatives may redeem them:

Leviticus 25:49
An uncle or a cousin or any blood relative in their clan may redeem them. Or if they prosper, they may redeem themselves.

Leviticus 25:54
“‘Even if someone is not redeemed in any of these ways, they and their children are to be released in the Year of Jubilee,

quip
November 21st, 2015, 11:42 AM
I trust in the God given Spirit to guide me. It was my recognition of a weak internal soul that lead me to repent of my wrongs and come to God. Don't you get your internal strength from the words of Buddha.

There's a vast difference between following The Word which teaches you what to think..... opposed to words teaching you how to think.

chrysostom
November 21st, 2015, 11:44 AM
you can say that I'm a dreamer
but
I'm not the only one

republicanchick
November 21st, 2015, 04:44 PM
Imagine No Religion

6)

imagine no religion... I d ont think the world have survived this long w/o "religion"


it's bad enough WITH religion...

yes, & it is very very bad w/ o it...

no... don't want to imagine no religion...



++

bsmitts
November 21st, 2015, 04:47 PM
...and that is equally as sad.

No, I rejoice for I have found life in Christ, and you could too!

exminister
November 21st, 2015, 05:54 PM
Nietzsche's teachings lead to the death of millions, by those who followed his teachings. Link: http://www.iep.utm.edu/nihilism/

Then he is not an infamous killer.

CherubRam
November 21st, 2015, 07:00 PM
Then he is not an infamous killer.
The worlds greatest murderers may have never killed anyone personally.

aikido7
November 21st, 2015, 07:13 PM
“...Imagine no religion.”

“Christianity will vanish and shrink... Jesus was alright but his disciples were thick [British slang for “stupid”] and ordinary. It’s them twisting it that ruins it for me.”

--John Lennon

“The meddlings of the Church have caused good men to reject the whole in disgust.”

--Thomas Jefferson

Bradley D
November 21st, 2015, 10:39 PM
There's a vast difference between following The Word which teaches you what to think..... opposed to words teaching you how to think.

I have accepted the Word as true by living it. The Word guides my thinking. It has become part of me. What Buddha has taught guides and has become a part of those who follow his teachings.

exminister
November 22nd, 2015, 04:32 AM
The worlds greatest murderers may have never killed anyone personally.

If they didn't give the order then they are not infamous killers.

As you know many have killed in the name of Christ, but you wouldn't add him to your list.

The link you provided had an interesting quote from Nietzche. He didn't invent nihilism but pointed it out and hoped humanity would pass through it. That puts a very different spin on it.

exminister
November 22nd, 2015, 05:09 AM
Here's the quote



5. Conclusion

It has been over a century now since Nietzsche explored nihilism and its implications for civilization. As he predicted, nihilism's impact on the culture and values of the 20th century has been pervasive, its apocalyptic tenor spawning a mood of gloom and a good deal of anxiety, anger, and terror. Interestingly, Nietzsche himself, a radical skeptic preoccupied with language, knowledge, and truth, anticipated many of the themes of postmodernity. It's helpful to note, then, that he believed we could--at a terrible price--eventually work through nihilism. If we survived the process of destroying all interpretations of the world, we could then perhaps discover the correct course for humankind:

I praise, I do not reproach, [nihilism's] arrival. I believe it is one of the greatest crises, a moment of the deepest self-reflection of humanity. Whether man recovers from it, whether he becomes master of this crisis, is a question of his strength. It is possible. . . . (Complete Works Vol. 13)



http://www.iep.utm.edu/nihilism/

Jonahdog
November 22nd, 2015, 07:09 AM
The worlds greatest murderers may have never killed anyone personally.

so the words of your Holy Book never pushed people to kill others? Religious wars, the Crusades, Europeans in the Americas all very peaceful. Who knew?

CherubRam
November 22nd, 2015, 07:09 AM
Here's the quote
5. Conclusion

It has been over a century now since Nietzsche explored nihilism and its implications for civilization. As he predicted, nihilism's impact on the culture and values of the 20th century has been pervasive, its apocalyptic tenor spawning a mood of gloom and a good deal of anxiety, anger, and terror. Interestingly, Nietzsche himself, a radical skeptic preoccupied with language, knowledge, and truth, anticipated many of the themes of postmodernity. It's helpful to note, then, that he believed we could--at a terrible price--eventually work through nihilism. If we survived the process of destroying all interpretations of the world, (BIBLE?) we could then perhaps discover the correct course for humankind:

I praise, I do not reproach, [nihilism's] arrival. I believe it is one of the greatest crises, a moment of the deepest self-reflection of humanity. Whether man recovers from it, whether he becomes master of this crisis, is a question of his strength. It is possible. . . . (Complete Works Vol. 13)


http://www.iep.utm.edu/nihilism/

Germans give the Nazi salute during the ..... Special attention is paid to The Bible as the last book burned:.

CherubRam
November 22nd, 2015, 07:16 AM
so the words of your Holy Book never pushed people to kill others? Religious wars, the Crusades, Europeans in the Americas all very peaceful. Who knew?

The whole world follows the Catholic Church as if it is Christianity. The Catholics killed the original Christians, and replaced scriptures with their own version of scriptures. This was prophesied in scriptures that this would happen.

CherubRam
November 22nd, 2015, 07:20 AM
IN THE LAST DAYS.
For the sake of survival, Christians will take control of the world to prevent it destruction.

Jonahdog
November 22nd, 2015, 07:33 AM
The whole world follows the Catholic Church as if it is Christianity. The Catholics killed the original Christians, and replaced scriptures with their own version of scriptures. This was prophesied in scriptures that this would happen.
Really, when and where did that happen? When did the Catholics kill the original Christians?

CherubRam
November 22nd, 2015, 07:41 AM
Really, when and where did that happen? When did the Catholics kill the original Christians?

It did not happen upon one day, it happen over a long period of time. The Catholics include the Romans of Rome, whom were for the most part, Pagans and Gnostic's.

Interplanner
November 22nd, 2015, 08:01 AM
Hitchins wrote GOD IS NOT GREAT to show what Islam's rise would be like.

CherubRam
November 22nd, 2015, 08:22 AM
Really, when and where did that happen? When did the Catholics kill the original Christians?
A little bit of history for you.
During the first century of Christianity, Gnostic's were divided over their acceptance of Christianity. The one side was completely opposed, whereas the others wanted to include Christianity, but under their control. That group of Gnostic's became known as the Catholic's.

CherubRam
November 22nd, 2015, 08:35 AM
Daniel 7:25.
He will think to change times and laws.

Gods time and laws is the seventh day Sabbath and His commandments.

Revelation 13:3
... The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast (nation)...

quip
November 22nd, 2015, 11:01 AM
No, I rejoice for I have found life in Christ, and you could too!

You couldn't find life within yourself? :confused:

Where else would it reside?

quip
November 22nd, 2015, 11:07 AM
I have accepted the Word as true by living it. The Word guides my thinking. It has become part of me.

You couldn't guide your own thoughts prior to "accepting" the arbitrary words of another?

I find that utterly strange.

CherubRam
November 22nd, 2015, 11:13 AM
You couldn't find life within yourself? :confused:

Where else would it reside?

Ring a bell?
Isaiah 6:9
He said, “Go and tell this people: “‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’

Matthew 13:14
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

Mark 4:12
so that, “‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’”

Acts 28:26
“‘Go to this people and say, “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”

quip
November 22nd, 2015, 11:25 AM
Ring a bell?
Isaiah 6:9
He said, “Go and tell this people: “‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’

Matthew 13:14
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: “‘You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

Mark 4:12
so that, “‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!’”

Acts 28:26
“‘Go to this people and say, “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”

A rather ironic post.
Any opposition to the Word simply implies an ignorant, non-comprehension. How convenient such a proprietary dodge is this? :chuckle:

I'd ask you to heed your own scripture's advice...but you've already allowed someone else to do that for you!

Jonahdog
November 22nd, 2015, 11:32 AM
A little bit of history for you.
During the first century of Christianity, Gnostic's were divided over their acceptance of Christianity. The one side was completely opposed, whereas the others wanted to include Christianity, but under their control. That group of Gnostic's became known as the Catholic's.

this makes no sense. Which side were the Catholics on? And where did you read this?

CherubRam
November 22nd, 2015, 11:50 AM
A rather ironic post.
Any opposition to the Word simply implies an ignorant, non-comprehension. How convenient such a proprietary dodge is this? :chuckle:

I'd ask you to heed your own scripture's advice...but you've already allowed someone else to do that for you!

Vaaaroooommm!

quip
November 22nd, 2015, 11:51 AM
Vaaaroooommm!

:idunno: Is that from "The Word"? :chuckle:

CherubRam
November 22nd, 2015, 11:54 AM
this makes no sense. Which side were the Catholics on? And where did you read this? (HISTORY)
The Gnostic's who were not oppose became the Catholics.
A little bit of history for you.
During the first century of Christianity, Gnostic's were divided over their acceptance of Christianity. The one side was completely opposed, whereas the others wanted to include Christianity, but under their control. That group of Gnostic's became known as the Catholic's.

Bradley D
November 23rd, 2015, 12:09 AM
so the words of your Holy Book never pushed people to kill others? Religious wars, the Crusades, Europeans in the Americas all very peaceful. Who knew?

Can you point out any words of Jesus that told people to do the atrocities that you point out.