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Wednesday Addams
November 13th, 2015, 12:04 PM
Make sure it's a legit question, not something like 'how many people have you bombed?'

If you ever did have a question, I'll be happy to help and if I can't I'll try and direct you to the right place.

I've analysed Christianity quite a lot. From trinity to the resurrection, Paul etc. I can talk to you about why I don't believe in Christianity.

Ultimately, we accept all of the prophets of the O.T. We believe John the Baptist was a prophet, and Jesus was the messiah, God's Word, a prophet who delivered the gospel (the original message from his mouth) and that he will rule the earth as the king of kings in the Messianic age. We also believe he was born of Virgin Mary (who is esteemed as the most Holy woman to walk the earth, by Muslims).
Our fundamental difference is that we just don't think God is a trinity, and we don't believe he died for our sins.

This is identical to the Islamic declaration of faith, and was certainly the same for the time of Jesus:
'Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.'
Eternal life for Islam is 'there is only one God, and Muhammad is the messenger/whom God has sent'.

bybee
November 13th, 2015, 12:09 PM
Make sure it's a legit question, not something like 'how many people have you bombed?'

If you ever did have a question, I'll be happy to help and if I can't I'll try and direct you to the right place.

I've analysed Christianity quite a lot. From trinity to the resurrection, Paul etc. I can talk to you about why I don't believe in Christianity.

Ultimately, we accept all of the prophets of the O.T. We believe John the Baptist was a prophet, and Jesus was the messiah, God's Word, a prophet who delivered the gospel (the original message from his mouth) and that he will rule the earth as the king of kings in the Messianic age. We also believe he was born of Virgin Mary (who is esteemed as the most Holy woman to walk the earth, by Muslims).
Our fundamental difference is that we just don't think God is a trinity, and we don't believe he died for our sins.

This is identical to the Islamic declaration of faith, and was certainly the same for the time of Jesus:
'Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.'
Eternal life for Islam is 'there is only one God, and Muhammad is the messenger/whom God has sent'.

If you are here to attempt to manipulate around the direct statements in the Qur'an go elsewhere!
Your objections to Christianity are none of my business.

Wick Stick
November 13th, 2015, 12:12 PM
Where are you from? What country do you live in now?

Were you born into a Muslim family or did you convert? If converted, what was your original faith (if any)?

My understanding is that under Shariah law, Islam once tolerated the religious
practice of other "peoples of the book," namely Jews and Christians. Today it does not. What changed or went wrong?

Do you think that Christianity and Islam can co-exist in a single country under Christian law? Under Shariah law? Under the laws of current European nations which are neither Christian nor Muslim?

Thanks in advance,

Jarrod

Wednesday Addams
November 13th, 2015, 12:15 PM
If you are here to attempt to manipulate around the direct statements in the Qur'an go elsewhere!
Your objections to Christianity are none of my business.

Since you're a moderator, am I actually allowed to do this thread? :confused:

No I hope to give you a good answer tbh, I'm not among those 'taqiyya' peeps the media scare you about.

bybee
November 13th, 2015, 12:29 PM
Since you're a moderator, am I actually allowed to do this thread? :confused:

No I hope to give you a good answer tbh, I'm not among those 'taqiyya' peeps the media scare you about.

Yes, as far as it goes this is potentially a good and helpful thread subject.
We have been plagued in the past by Islamic apologists who start out being civil and wind up being not so civil.
I wish you well and hope that you will be helpful.

Wednesday Addams
November 13th, 2015, 12:31 PM
Where are you from? What country do you live in now?

Were you born into a Muslim family or did you convert? If converted, what was your original faith (if any)?

My understanding is that under Shariah law, Islam once tolerated the religious
practice of other "peoples of the book," namely Jews and Christians. Today it does not. What changed or went wrong?

Do you think that Christianity and Islam can co-exist in a single country under Christian law? Under Shariah law? Under the laws of current European nations which are neither Christian nor Muslim?

Thanks in advance,

Jarrod

Born and raised in England. Educated at a very English place, went to a very traditional English university.
I did give the other faiths my best shot, and I studied some great content too, i.e resurrection of Jesus being the best.

Shariah law isn't implemented properly today, Saudi Arabia and Iran are farcical evil dictatorships who claim the name of Shariah.

You are very correct there, Shariah law does have a rich history with Jews and Christians.

The prophet Muhammad in shariah stated:
“He who hurts a dhimmi [a non-Muslim under Muslim protection] hurts me.”
“He who harms a person under covenant, or charged him more than he can, I will argue against him on the Day of Judgement.”

A monk stated of the harmony between the Christians and the muslims:
'the Christians and the Pagans [i.e. Muslims] have this kind of peace between them there that if I was going on a journey, and on the way the camel or donkey which bore my poor luggage were to die, and I was to abandon all my goods without any guardian, and go to the city for another pack animal, when I came back, I would find all my property uninjured: such is the peace there.' (from the book by Walker, Islam and the West).

Thomas Arnold, the historian, stated of Christians that they 'called down blessings on the heads of the Muslims.'

From a Qur'anic perspective, we're meant to live in harmony and get to know one another, thus respect the rule of the country..
“People, We created you all from a single man and a single woman, and made you into races and tribes so that you should recognize one another. In God’s eyes, the most honoured of you are the ones most mindful of Him: God is all knowing, all aware.”

Unfortunately, muslims have kind of regressed in their understanding and consciousness of the religion. Remember the time of the Islamic revolution in terms of knowledge? Yeah, I don't remember either because it was hundreds of years ago :crackup:

ok doser
November 13th, 2015, 12:31 PM
how many people have you bombed?

when you guys type "pbuh" do you realize you sound retarded?

if i post a pic of Mohammed, will you go off the deep end?

Wednesday Addams
November 13th, 2015, 12:35 PM
Yes, as far as it goes this is potentially a good and helpful thread subject.
We have been plagued in the past by Islamic apologists who start out being civil and wind up being not so civil.
I wish you well and hope that you will be helpful.

:)

Jamie Gigliotti
November 13th, 2015, 12:38 PM
Make sure it's a legit question, not something like 'how many people have you bombed?'

If you ever did have a question, I'll be happy to help and if I can't I'll try and direct you to the right place.

I've analysed Christianity quite a lot. From trinity to the resurrection, Paul etc. I can talk to you about why I don't believe in Christianity.

Ultimately, we accept all of the prophets of the O.T. We believe John the Baptist was a prophet, and Jesus was the messiah, God's Word, a prophet who delivered the gospel (the original message from his mouth) and that he will rule the earth as the king of kings in the Messianic age. We also believe he was born of Virgin Mary (who is esteemed as the most Holy woman to walk the earth, by Muslims).
Our fundamental difference is that we just don't think God is a trinity, and we don't believe he died for our sins.

This is identical to the Islamic declaration of faith, and was certainly the same for the time of Jesus:
'Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.'
Eternal life for Islam is 'there is only one God, and Muhammad is the messenger/whom God has sent'.

What confirms that Jesus is all that He says He is, that the New Testament is the truth for some of us is the loving indescribably good presence of the Holy Spirit that fills us.

What confirms Islam's truth for you?

What inhibits the possibility of the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit from possessing oneness and in essence the same essence?

Wednesday Addams
November 13th, 2015, 12:42 PM
how many people have you bombed?

when you guys type "pbuh" do you realize you sound retarded?

if i post a pic of Mohammed, will you go off the deep end?

The question is, how many toilets have I bombed after a vindaloo.

PBUH is just a shortened term for Peace Be Upon Him. It's just the level of reverence we have towards the prophets, our relationship with our God is our own and the way it sounds to others is thus the concern of man, not God.
With that said, I am guilty of not writing it after the names of prophets out of laziness, woe to me.

No I wont, I'd prefer if you didn't though lol. Honestly, we are against pictures of Jesus also as they're both equal in standing (although Jesus has more functions than Muhammad being Christos). I believe religion should be kept on respectful terms as let's face it, it's a topic that's dear to our hearts. The Qur'an also instructs: 'Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.'. Those who fall short are trolls, and I think conversations about God deserves far better.

ok doser
November 13th, 2015, 12:43 PM
:thumb: good answers

you may have a future here after all :)

Nick M
November 13th, 2015, 12:58 PM
The words of the Lord Jesus Christ are incompatible with islam.

jamie
November 13th, 2015, 01:08 PM
Our fundamental difference is that we just don't think God is a trinity, and we don't believe he died for our sins.


Also the Qur'an denies that God was Jesus' father.

aikido7
November 13th, 2015, 01:17 PM
Make sure it's a legit question, not something like 'how many people have you bombed?'

If you ever did have a question, I'll be happy to help and if I can't I'll try and direct you to the right place.

I've analysed Christianity quite a lot. From trinity to the resurrection, Paul etc. I can talk to you about why I don't believe in Christianity.

Ultimately, we accept all of the prophets of the O.T. We believe John the Baptist was a prophet, and Jesus was the messiah, God's Word, a prophet who delivered the gospel (the original message from his mouth) and that he will rule the earth as the king of kings in the Messianic age. We also believe he was born of Virgin Mary (who is esteemed as the most Holy woman to walk the earth, by Muslims).
Our fundamental difference is that we just don't think God is a trinity, and we don't believe he died for our sins.

This is identical to the Islamic declaration of faith, and was certainly the same for the time of Jesus:
'Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.'
Eternal life for Islam is 'there is only one God, and Muhammad is the messenger/whom God has sent'.What, according to you, is the reason many Christians see your faith through the lenses of fear and condemnation--even though the violent aspect is part of Christianity as well?

There are plenty of people in America who confront Islam in the same spirit of confrontation as we do any other religion--on its own terms.

That said, I would especially like hearing from you on these issues:

1.Mohammed as a child molester, supposedly proved true by the Koran.
2. Islam as a religion of war against all “unbelievers” as shown clearly in the Koran.
3. The idea that the “Califate’s” only purpose is to kill everyone who is not a Muslim.

iouae
November 13th, 2015, 01:29 PM
I get the feeling that you put the good you do in your lifetime on one side of a scale, and bad things on the other side, and whichever side is heavier that is where you go in the afterlife.

Is there any mechanism for forgiveness of sin apart from through doing good or something extreme?

One gets the feeling that folks are duped by promising that if they die doing jihad, this somehow absolves sin and takes one straight to heaven. Does the Koran teach this?

aikido7
November 13th, 2015, 01:52 PM
I get the feeling that you put the good you do in your lifetime on one side of a scale, and bad things on the other side, and whichever side is heavier that is where you go in the afterlife.

Is there any mechanism for forgiveness of sin apart from through doing good or something extreme?

One gets the feeling that folks are duped by promising that if they die doing jihad, this somehow absolves sin and takes one straight to heaven. Does the Koran teach this?Great question, iouae!

6days
November 13th, 2015, 02:01 PM
The Qu'ran says that the Injil, Torah and Psalms were given step by step by Allah. The Qu'ran also says that Allah will protect his word from corruption. Muhammad also gave high praise to Christian scripture. So, why do most Muslims claim our scripture is corrupted?

Surely if Mohammad gave our scripture high praise, as well as the Qu'ran.....you must also believe our that our Christian scripture has been accurately preserved? Surely if accurate Christian scripture is described in the Qu'ran, it was also preserved in some of the great Muslim libraries in Europe?

Also...perhaps the reasons Muslims are confused about Bible corruption is because the Qu'ran says that "some" people of the Book were corrupted, or corrupted their copies, but the Qu'ran never says that God's Word / Bible is corrupted.

Wednesday Addams
November 13th, 2015, 02:20 PM
Also the Qur'an denies that God was Jesus' father.

Yes, the Qur'an does deny that. There are some important aspects to consider:
1. The landscape of the Qur'anic revelations
a. Pre-Islamic Arabia was a pagan society. They had left the religion of Abrahamic monotheism some 200 years prior to the advent of Islam. Calling God the Father of the Son Jesus would have been easily misunderstood, and for a final revelation between God and man, there needs to be no room for alternative interpretations.
To emphasise the depth of interpretation Arabia would go to, there were actually 'muslims' who went on to believe that the Islamic God was in a trinity with Muhammad and one of the companions.

2. The Qur'an takes a polemical approach to the people of the time of revelation, and invokes people to think on a more logical sense, and asks how is it that God would beget a son? Beget would mean to have a wife. So there's a line God crosses when it comes to what this means.

3. All over the Old Testament, we see that God has many sons, even David was called God's Son who God had 'begotten'. People were called sons of God who were of high status and believed, in the eyes of God.
Jesus then will be a unique Son of God, it's fair to say..as he is not a mere man, but Christ.

4. When referring to Jesus, God said He breathed onto Mary His spirit. This can be seen as though Mary begat a son through God, but the Qur'an denies what was the understanding of the Arabs of 'begetting'.

chrysostom
November 13th, 2015, 02:29 PM
why would adults put bombs on children?

alwight
November 13th, 2015, 03:29 PM
Today we learnt the not so sad news that Mohammed Emwazi aka 'Jihadi John' had been targeted and was probably killed by a US drone strike.
He was a British subject and latterly a video front man for the so-called "Islamic State", who was mainly notorious for his heartless and inhuman beheadings of apparently innocent hostages.

Some people say it would have been better had 'Jihadi John' been captured and put on trial for crimes against humanity. Personally I think the expense of a drone was far more than he was worth but nevertheless it was a job well worth doing.

Will 'Jihadi John' now become an Islamic martyr, assuming that the US drone did get him?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34805924

Jamie Gigliotti
November 13th, 2015, 03:38 PM
What confirms that Jesus is all that He says He is, that the New Testament is the truth for some of us is the loving indescribably good presence of the Holy Spirit that fills us.

What confirms Islam's truth for you?

What inhibits the possibility of the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit from possessing oneness and in essence the same essence?

Anything Wednesday?

Wednesday Addams
November 13th, 2015, 03:43 PM
What, according to you, is the reason many Christians see your faith through the lenses of fear and condemnation--even though the violent aspect is part of Christianity as well?

There are plenty of people in America who confront Islam in the same spirit of confrontation as we do any other religion--on its own terms.

That said, I would especially like hearing from you on these issues:

1.Mohammed as a child molester, supposedly proved true by the Koran.
2. Islam as a religion of war against all “unbelievers” as shown clearly in the Koran.
3. The idea that the “Califate’s” only purpose is to kill everyone who is not a Muslim.

It's because people are always scared of that which they are uncertain of, especially another religion that has a lot of followers. In their mind, they ask: How does the religion view us? Are we Christians safe? What if they get the power, are we going to be marginalised?
These are healthy fears and curiosities.
There is a violent aspect in the Judaeo-Christian scripture, but it has found a place in society over the many years and is not causing any suspicion, so we all relax and don't really look into the texts.

However, Islam does pose a threat to what I believe to be a 'zionist' agenda. For if the world was run with the TRUE Islamic Shariah law, it will cultivate the growing of Faith and Religion as Muslims, Christians and Jews will have their faith protected and muslims are commanded to go as far as building churches that have been destroyed, for example. It's just too much God-consciousness, and if there's God consciousness, we have people with their eyes open. Instead we have a society that cultivates the growth of Atheism. No muslim can take it upon himself and just go and slice someone up, that is an abhorrent sin in Islam, and such things need to be addressed by authorities.

Because Islam is not the religion that Christians follow, unfortunately they see it as an opportunity to jump on the bandwagon to start demonising it.

The Qur'an itself seeks to positively impose itself on the mind of anyone, believer or not. In many occurrences it calls upon one to 'think and reflect'.

With regards to Muhammad and his marriage to Aisha:
a. calling him a 'child molester' would be superimposing your own understanding of the world that is formulated by the backdrop of your current culture, onto another. In the study of Anthropology, an important principle that is taught is to empty yourself from this.
Although Muslims agree today that in this landscape, marriage to the likes of Aisha who was 9 years old is forbidden and..abhorrent, we also take into account the importance to see this through the landscape at the time. So sure, I find young girls gross, it is classed in this time as Paedophilic without a doubt.
And with that said:
b. Muhammad waited until Aisha had actually well and truly reached puberty. Some can at 9, some older.
c. Arabs at the time lived in tough conditions, which lends to girls 'coming of age' at a younger time than today for example.
d. They were psychologically prepared for becoming wives from a young age. It was the cultural norm.
e. Muhammad's marriages were not out of some lust-hungry surge. They were strongly rooted in Politics. Muslims understand what is permissible and what isn't, by analysing the life decisions of the prophet, also. For example, he married widow (who was described by Islamic sources as heavy lol - not by Muhammad himself) to show that you can marry widows and you mustn't be stunted by 'social stigmas' - otherwise pre-Islamic Arabs used to leave widows for dead and without help, they were outcasts in their society.
Muhammad's marriage to Aisha developed ties between himself and her father, who was happy and approved the marriage.
f. Let's not forget Muhammad was married to a woman 15 years his senior called Khadija.

Islam finds forced marriage an evil sin.


f. Marriage and Sexual Relations in the Old Testament.
The Jewish Talmud said in many places that in reference to this verse "They fought against Midian, as the LORD commanded Moses, and killed every man........Now kill all the boys . And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:7,17-18)....[I]the age was as young as 3.


Sexual Relations in the Old Testament -
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/what-they-dont-teach-at-sunday-school-the-joy-of-old-testament-sex-792761.html


g. Marriage in recent times as well as Christian history
Visit these links:
http://www.muhaddith.org/earlymarriage/EarlyMarriage-part1.html
http://www.muhaddith.org/earlymarriage/EarlyMarriage-part2.html
In 1880, the minimum age of marriage in USA Delaware was 8, in Russia, 10.
Girls as young as 12 TODAY are legal for sex in Mexico.



With regards to your second and third question about 'wars' against unbelievers, the easiest thing to do is to take it from a surface level and then say 'look, the Qur'an is inciting violence!' But it's important to remember what the Qur'an is, it's a series of revelations that came down, many a time to address the current situation Muhammad pbuh was in. In this case, it was in the context of defensive wars, whereby non-muslims broke treaties and forced a war, by which it became a war of muslims vs non-muslims, that's why you see things like instructions to kill the unbelievers. The historical context is paramount in understanding this.

Jose Fly
November 13th, 2015, 03:45 PM
We have been plagued in the past by Islamic apologists who start out being civil and wind up being not so civil

Good thing none of the Christians here ever do that. Oh....wait (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4518173&postcount=7)....:rolleyes:

Jose Fly
November 13th, 2015, 03:49 PM
So Wednesday, a question or two (from a non-religious person)....

Is it accurate to say that under Islam, the purpose behind our lives is that God/Allah put us here in order to test us? If so, how does that make sense?

bybee
November 13th, 2015, 03:59 PM
Good thing none of the Christians here ever do that. Oh....wait (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4518173&postcount=7)....:rolleyes:

Well, oh dense one, this is a Christian Forum! A rational person would expect Christian apologetic's on this type of forum.
You need not be here. Your presence hasn't added much of substance so far.

Jose Fly
November 13th, 2015, 04:04 PM
Well, oh dense one, this is a Christian Forum! A rational person would expect Christian apologetic's on this type of forum.
You need not be here. Your presence hasn't added much of substance so far.

So calling people retards = Christian apologetics. Got it.

Wednesday Addams
November 13th, 2015, 04:25 PM
Anything Wednesday?

Yes, won't be long...I didn't see this one earlier.

Jamie Gigliotti
November 13th, 2015, 04:34 PM
What really did Islam do besides distort Christianity?

Doesn't it seem like a regurgitated law abiding approach based on man's effort, like the Torah?

Does it really make sense to believe the testimony of one man about Christ, when there are eleven men who witnessed His glory and truth and testified to His truth, and were murdered for not recanting there testimonies?

What in Islam removes the shame of sin?

Nick M
November 13th, 2015, 04:37 PM
Muslims are a violent version of Mormons. They are not like Christianity. Paul reasoned from the scriptures, that Jesus is the Christ. You cannot prove the others from the scriptures.

Wednesday Addams
November 13th, 2015, 04:56 PM
What confirms that Jesus is all that He says He is, that the New Testament is the truth for some of us is the loving indescribably good presence of the Holy Spirit that fills us.

What confirms Islam's truth for you?

What inhibits the possibility of the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit from possessing oneness and in essence the same essence?

That's fine, and with faith, rather than taking an approach that is just purely logical and scholarly, we as believers in God understand the importance of God's presence in our lives and what we feel God is guiding us to. This as well as basic foundations that discern what type of God we worship i.e is it the God of the Hindus? Is it the God of the Muslims?

What confirms Islam's truth is a very big question that won't be able to be answered in such a simple way.

I have logical reasons, reasons that conform to common sense and the way I understand the world, and personal experience. That actually summarises my initial paragraph in this post.

With that said, and in seeking to answer your final question, I'd first like to say that they possess oneness in the execution of God's Will. They work in eternal harmonisation of God's decree.

The reasons I believe in a Unitarian God are:
1. a. This encompasses what I believe to be an All-Powerful, Perfectly Self-Sufficient, being to be. If we are thinking of a God being self-sufficient, we are talking epitomes here. The epitome of a self-sufficient God for example is one that does not operate in a multi-personhood. But He is instead self-sufficiently One.
When I looked up and prayed to God when I was young, without understanding God as described word for word in the Qur'an, it would appeal to my disposition to worship an All-Powerful singular Person. Go to your churches today and you'll see people can't consistently explain what the trinity is. They'd probably even get stumped if you asked them the wrong argument 'If Jesus is God and Jesus died on the cross, that means God died, how can God die?'. A lot of them would understand the trinity wrongly, in a modalist sense, also. It's just not practically and instinctively understood even after 2000 years let alone a random illiterate, uneducated, non-critical thinking, fruits marketseller in Galilee in the year 30 AD. But the Oneness of God is understandable to all.


1b. The God of the Old Testament does not explicitly deny being a trinity or pentity or anything or that matter, but He does go to lengths to state His Oneness.
I just think that the God of mankind would make known that He is a trinity time and time again, rather than presenting His nature saying things like 'there is no one beside me'.


1c. I don't actually believe Paul believed in a trinity. It's hard to say, but Paul could have believed one of three things.
1ca.The Son was a man only.
1cb. Jesus was a divine being, either being greater than an angel but not God of the O.T, not Yahweh..which makes Jesus being 'subjected' to the Father more understandable.
1cc. Jesus was Lord and that the Father was God. 'There is one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ'. This is repeated a lot in Paul's works and strikes me as a splitting of the Shema. However, there is no Holy Spirit influence. This seems to be further evidenced in John 17:3 - I honestly am convinced the author of John (heavily influenced by Pauline theology) didn't believe Jesus was Yahweh.

1d. All we have now are very strenuous interpretations of the gospels, in a way in which are written by authors whom we don't really know. We don't know who the oral transmitters are either nor their competence at transmission, we see massive evolutions of the Christology of Jesus from low to high as we go from Mark to John, whereby people increasingly believed Jesus was a divine being of some sort.
Professor Bart Ehrman is a very good figure to look into for more on this.

1e. When looking at the life of Jesus, all I see is a human prophet. He prayed to God. He used 'God' and 'Father' interchangeably. He never said 'I am God, worship me, God is a trinity', he always stated that he has no power of his own but it all of it was given by the Father. There are many unitarian verses, too. This is a massive topic and I could talk about it at depth. But it's clear to me that Jesus is all too human, and only human.

1f. It's very easy for that generation to believe in things like trinity etc. because they were prevalent in tradition. It was closer to home and readily accepted in their consciousness.

1g. I believe Islam is the true religion, and I have reasons for believing that which I will expound upon if you would like. The Qur'an emphasises God's oneness. The Oneness of God and the belief in that goes beyond just believing that God is unitarian, but it is symbolic of the way we should live, also. Being in God's image as you will.

It's just the amalgamation of these facts working together, I am literally putting my eternal life on the line but 100% confidently in believing God is a Unitarian God.

Wednesday Addams
November 13th, 2015, 05:02 PM
So Wednesday, a question or two (from a non-religious person)....

Is it accurate to say that under Islam, the purpose behind our lives is that God/Allah put us here in order to test us? If so, how does that make sense?

I did post yesterday an important saying of God in Hadith Qudsi..
“I was a Treasure unknown then I desired to be known so I created a creation to which I made Myself known; then they knew Me.”
Ultimately, God wants to eternally enjoy His presence as He enjoys ours (a massive privilege we should actually think about) in pleasure and euphoric delight. He doesn’t look at wanting any less than this. It’s His vision for us. But to be worthy of His presence, we must be on the straight path. His presence is a privilege that out of all things cannot be taken for granted.

Angel4Truth
November 13th, 2015, 05:18 PM
Since you're a moderator, am I actually allowed to do this thread? :confused:

No I hope to give you a good answer tbh, I'm not among those 'taqiyya' peeps the media scare you about.

How would we know that? Thats the result of Islam teachings, and where its ok to lie for your own end, where does that leave you in believability?

intojoy
November 13th, 2015, 05:19 PM
How much money you got?

Wednesday Addams
November 13th, 2015, 05:23 PM
How would we know that? Thats the result of Islam teachings, and where its ok to lie for your own end, where does that leave you in believability?

http://islamicresponse.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/what-is-taqiyya.html
In depth but worth a read.

Wednesday Addams
November 13th, 2015, 05:28 PM
why would adults put bombs on children?


Today we learnt the not so sad news that Mohammed Emwazi aka 'Jihadi John' had been targeted and was probably killed by a US drone strike.
He was a British subject and latterly a video front man for the so-called "Islamic State", who was mainly notorious for his heartless and inhuman beheadings of apparently innocent hostages.

Some people say it would have been better had 'Jihadi John' been captured and put on trial for crimes against humanity. Personally I think the expense of a drone was far more than he was worth but nevertheless it was a job well worth doing.

Will 'Jihadi John' now become an Islamic martyr, assuming that the US drone did get him?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34805924

There's no place that represents hell more than ISIS. They're not muslims, they're just psychopaths from the bottom joining, and at its pinnacle are zionists. They twist religion in the worst possible ways, I'm pretty sure he will kiss the deepest depths of the bowels of hell.

ISIS is apparently financed so efficiently. As if a bunch of sociopathic teenagers can do that on their own accord, it's clear it's just an arm of zionist agenda to me. Demonise muslims and cultivate fear, 'ISLAM OUT!' even though they're not following Islam at all and make their own rules up lol

Esteemed scholar actually refutes everything ISIS is about in this very recent book
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Refuting-ISIS-Religious-Ideological-Foundations/dp/1908224126

Jose Fly
November 13th, 2015, 05:29 PM
I did post yesterday an important saying of God in Hadith Qudsi..
“I was a Treasure unknown then I desired to be known so I created a creation to which I made Myself known; then they knew Me.”
Ultimately, God wants to eternally enjoy His presence as He enjoys ours (a massive privilege we should actually think about) in pleasure and euphoric delight. He doesn’t look at wanting any less than this. It’s His vision for us. But to be worthy of His presence, we must be on the straight path. His presence is a privilege that out of all things cannot be taken for granted.

Does that mean when I hear Muslims saying that Allah put us here to test us, they're wrong?

Wednesday Addams
November 13th, 2015, 05:30 PM
How much money you got?

I don't understand the joke, but I'm not Arab so I didn't get that oil money, nor did I get the title of an Arab prince. I am but a mere graduate looking to make self-earned money, being my own boss.

Angel4Truth
November 13th, 2015, 05:31 PM
http://islamicresponse.blogspot.co.uk/2011/05/what-is-taqiyya.html
In depth but worth a read.

Im not interested in your link, i am interested in discussion with you, you said to ask YOU questions, can you not answer the questions you invited?

Wick Stick
November 13th, 2015, 05:33 PM
...it's clear it's just an arm of zionist agenda to me. Demonise muslims and cultivate fear, 'ISLAM OUT!' even though they're not following Islam at all and make their own rules up lol
So... this is all one big conspiracy, and the Jews are behind it? o_O

You seem a lot more articulate than that, up to this point. Say it ain't so.

musterion
November 13th, 2015, 05:51 PM
Make sure it's a legit question, not something like 'how many people have you bombed?'

If you ever did have a question, I'll be happy to help and if I can't I'll try and direct you to the right place.




Ever been to Paris?

musterion
November 13th, 2015, 06:05 PM
Lately?

intojoy
November 13th, 2015, 06:09 PM
I don't understand the joke, but I'm not Arab so I didn't get that oil money, nor did I get the title of an Arab prince. I am but a mere graduate looking to make self-earned money, being my own boss.


Nah it's just one of my follow up questions. As in "do you need a date tonight...how much money you got"

disturbo
November 13th, 2015, 06:10 PM
Why are you still a Muslim knowing what your religion is doing across the world?

Nick M
November 13th, 2015, 06:10 PM
Why are you still a Muslim knowing what your religion is doing across the world?

He hates God. :duh:

musterion
November 13th, 2015, 06:11 PM
I doubt it's actually a Muslim. It's a troll that has been here before, just not sure which one yet.

aCultureWarrior
November 13th, 2015, 06:23 PM
With regards to Muhammad and his marriage to Aisha:...

Islam finds forced marriage an evil sin.

So a 6 year old girl wanted to marry a man in his late 40's?

Aisha's father: Aisha, what would you like for your 6th birthday?

Aisha: Do you know any men in their late 40's that will marry me?

http://iranpoliticsclub.net/cartoons/muhammad-aisha/images/Prophet%20Muhammad%20&%20Aisha%20his%20child%20bride%20marriage%20cartoo n.jpg

Now that I've mocked your pedophile false prophet, tell us about the 72 virgins and the pre-pubescent boys:

http://www.albatrus.org/english/religions/islam/72virgins_and_boys.htm

jamie
November 13th, 2015, 06:29 PM
...I am literally putting my eternal life on the line but 100% confidently in believing God is a Unitarian God.


No, not really. According to Jesus you are not being judged with regard to eternal life.


And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. (John 12:47 NKJV)

Wednesday Addams
November 13th, 2015, 06:48 PM
Im not interested in your link, i am interested in discussion with you, you said to ask YOU questions, can you not answer the questions you invited?

I think you need to be open minded for not only discussion but also to be able to research things. This is a very important point I'm making here. The quality of your research is an indicator of the quality of who you are and strive to be, as a person.

In short, taqiyya is actually 'to protect'. It was done when muslims were at the brink of being killed. i.e they were burned alive, in a situation that involves being killed or traumatically tortured etc. we are allowed to say something we don't believe, even if we don't hold to that sentiment ourselves. But it's very strict and we cannot even say things to prevent 100 lashes!

Let it be known then, that lying to the media to present a false version of Islam is just rubbish. Moreover, it is a GRAVE SIN. Islamic Scholars and Hadith transmitters of old feared one thing - saying of the prophet and the Qur'an other than what was said, because the sin is so great in Islam.

Whereas, the Apostle Paul actually went and did the Nazarite Vow in Acts 21 to convince the Law believing new Jewish believers that he was walking orderly and obedient to the Law, as instructed by James. This is the sort of taqiyya the media accuses Muslims of.

Wednesday Addams
November 13th, 2015, 06:50 PM
Does that mean when I hear Muslims saying that Allah put us here to test us, they're wrong?

Yes. They're absolutely correct, because we have to be worthy of God's presence. The wicked do not inherit the kingdom of God, just like in Paul's epistle to the Romans. But ultimately, when you strip God's reason right to the very core, it is so He can be known, and we can thus enjoy a blissful eternity with Him.

Jamie Gigliotti
November 13th, 2015, 06:51 PM
That's fine, and with faith, rather than taking an approach that is just purely logical and scholarly, we as believers in God understand the importance of God's presence in our lives and what we feel God is guiding us to. This as well as basic foundations that discern what type of God we worship i.e is it the God of the Hindus? Is it the God of the Muslims?

What confirms Islam's truth is a very big question that won't be able to be answered in such a simple way.

I have logical reasons, reasons that conform to common sense and the way I understand the world, and personal experience. That actually summarises my initial paragraph in this post.

With that said, and in seeking to answer your final question, I'd first like to say that they possess oneness in the execution of God's Will. They work in eternal harmonisation of God's decree.

The reasons I believe in a Unitarian God are:
1. a. This encompasses what I believe to be an All-Powerful, Perfectly Self-Sufficient, being to be. If we are thinking of a God being self-sufficient, we are talking epitomes here. The epitome of a self-sufficient God for example is one that does not operate in a multi-personhood. But He is instead self-sufficiently One.
When I looked up and prayed to God when I was young, without understanding God as described word for word in the Qur'an, it would appeal to my disposition to worship an All-Powerful singular Person. Go to your churches today and you'll see people can't consistently explain what the trinity is. They'd probably even get stumped if you asked them the wrong argument 'If Jesus is God and Jesus died on the cross, that means God died, how can God die?'. A lot of them would understand the trinity wrongly, in a modalist sense, also. It's just not practically and instinctively understood even after 2000 years let alone a random illiterate, uneducated, non-critical thinking, fruits marketseller in Galilee in the year 30 AD. But the Oneness of God is understandable to all.


1b. The God of the Old Testament does not explicitly deny being a trinity or pentity or anything or that matter, but He does go to lengths to state His Oneness.
I just think that the God of mankind would make known that He is a trinity time and time again, rather than presenting His nature saying things like 'there is no one beside me'.


1c. I don't actually believe Paul believed in a trinity. It's hard to say, but Paul could have believed one of three things.
1ca.The Son was a man only.
1cb. Jesus was a divine being, either being greater than an angel but not God of the O.T, not Yahweh..which makes Jesus being 'subjected' to the Father more understandable.
1cc. Jesus was Lord and that the Father was God. 'There is one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ'. This is repeated a lot in Paul's works and strikes me as a splitting of the Shema. However, there is no Holy Spirit influence. This seems to be further evidenced in John 17:3 - I honestly am convinced the author of John (heavily influenced by Pauline theology) didn't believe Jesus was Yahweh.

1d. All we have now are very strenuous interpretations of the gospels, in a way in which are written by authors whom we don't really know. We don't know who the oral transmitters are either nor their competence at transmission, we see massive evolutions of the Christology of Jesus from low to high as we go from Mark to John, whereby people increasingly believed Jesus was a divine being of some sort.
Professor Bart Ehrman is a very good figure to look into for more on this.

1e. When looking at the life of Jesus, all I see is a human prophet. He prayed to God. He used 'God' and 'Father' interchangeably. He never said 'I am God, worship me, God is a trinity', he always stated that he has no power of his own but it all of it was given by the Father. There are many unitarian verses, too. This is a massive topic and I could talk about it at depth. But it's clear to me that Jesus is all too human, and only human.

1f. It's very easy for that generation to believe in things like trinity etc. because they were prevalent in tradition. It was closer to home and readily accepted in their consciousness.

1g. I believe Islam is the true religion, and I have reasons for believing that which I will expound upon if you would like. The Qur'an emphasises God's oneness. The Oneness of God and the belief in that goes beyond just believing that God is unitarian, but it is symbolic of the way we should live, also. Being in God's image as you will.

It's just the amalgamation of these facts working together, I am literally putting my eternal life on the line but 100% confidently in believing God is a Unitarian God.

I hear your oneness argument. Jesus agreed.
So do I.

So we agree God is one.

The question is what is the nature of that oneness.

What logic dictates that oneness can not be shared?

What then is shared in the Father and Jesus?

I would think we would agree on God being omnipresent. Filling every possible dimension, yet we are made in His image. If He fills everything and has all power, He can choose to take any form at any time. He takes the form of the Father in Heaven, and Jesus on Earth at the same time.

Is He then just copying Himself, in a way yes in Jesus, with one factor to consider. I'm sure we can agree on God's goodnes and that "God is love" as John writes. Logically it only stands to bear that love needs to be shared to be love. So as the Father and Jesus and The Holy Spirit share this one love, one power, one diety essence, there sharing of love is in fact part of the nature that has always existed. There is one great distiction in this oneness of unity, but establisher of it as well. Authority. Jesus said He was doing His Fathers will and that "the Father is greater than I". You may say there it is, no oneness. But Jesus and the Spirit following the will of the Father to perfection, proves their oneness with Him.
When you experience agape love, perfect uncondional love of His and share in their love the oneness becomes oh so clear. And yet the truth our minds really are not truly capable to understand God, His oneness or His love, fully anyway.
To accept Him and His love I had to come to realize my brains limitations, but through Jesus, His love will be all you ever need. I pray you find it and Him.

Angel4Truth
November 13th, 2015, 06:52 PM
I think you need to be open minded for not only discussion but also to be able to research things. This is a very important point I'm making here. The quality of your research is an indicator of the quality of who you are and strive to be, as a person.

In short, taqiyya is actually 'to protect'. It was done when muslims were at the brink of being killed. i.e they were burned alive, in a situation that involves being killed or traumatically tortured etc. we are allowed to say something we don't believe, even if we don't hold to that sentiment ourselves. But it's very strict and we cannot even say things to prevent 100 lashes!

Let it be known then, that lying to the media to present a false version of Islam is just rubbish. Moreover, it is a GRAVE SIN. Islamic Scholars and Hadith transmitters of old feared one thing - saying of the prophet and the Qur'an other than what was said, because the sin is so great in Islam.

Whereas, the Apostle Paul actually went and did the Nazarite Vow in Acts 21 to convince the Law believing new Jewish believers that he was walking orderly and obedient to the Law, as instructed by James. This is the sort of taqiyya the media accuses Muslims of.

Ive already researched it, do you intend to answer my questions or not, if not, im not wasting my time, because i am not interested in hearing you proselytize the demonic religion of islam.

You should have said, "ask me a question that i want to hear that isnt uncomfortable for me" I know what taqiyya is and what it means and how it can be used. So i asked why i should i believe a word from you, since your false religion teaches it and its a regular practice among adherents of islam.

Wednesday Addams
November 13th, 2015, 06:55 PM
So... this is all one big conspiracy, and the Jews are behind it? o_O

You seem a lot more articulate than that, up to this point. Say it ain't so.

Yes. I firmly believe this. ISIS was actually created by the CIA, this is a known fact even Hilary Clinton admitted that.

I believe it operates under a pyramidal structure. Dumb sociopaths/psychopaths/narcissists at the bottom joining ISIS thinking they can kill two birds with one stone: Serve the religion by shedding blood.
The people at the top pulling the strings are doing so for many reasons.

I invite you to watch the highly lauded comedy movie, this is very much the common sense of ISIS peeps:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew-SrlQ9tlI

Angel4Truth
November 13th, 2015, 06:57 PM
One only need to turn on the evening news to know what Islam believes in. You can whine all day about 'unfairly' represented, but the world is a witness to it in action especially in the atrocities within primarily Islamic countries.

Heres another question for you, if you could actually answer some:

What does islam offer a woman?

Angel4Truth
November 13th, 2015, 06:58 PM
ISIS was actually created by the CIA,

and the jews want to eat your children for dinner, right?

Wednesday Addams
November 13th, 2015, 07:00 PM
Ive already researched it, do you intend to answer my questions or not, if not, im not wasting my time, because i am not interested in hearing you proselytize the demonic religion of islam.

You should have said, "ask me a question that i want to hear that isnt uncomfortable for me" I know what taqiyya is and what it means and how it can be used. So i asked why i should i believe a word from you, since your false religion teaches it and its a regular practice among adherents of islam.

I'm not interested in answering questions to people who just want to chastisise and misrepresent me, to be frank. I'm not playing a game of being on the back foot. It's for mature, reasonable discussion, you seem very emotionally loaded.

I honestly had given you the answer. You don't know what it means because you're insistent on suggesting it is what you say it is, I'm here telling you it's not, there's really not much more I can say. I invited you to look at a great in depth article on it but you refused. I gave you an answer, and you balked. That's not open minded.

CherubRam
November 13th, 2015, 07:06 PM
Yes. I firmly believe this. ISIS was actually created by the CIA, this is a known fact even Hilary Clinton admitted that.

I believe it operates under a pyramidal structure. Dumb sociopaths/psychopaths/narcissists at the bottom joining ISIS thinking they can kill two birds with one stone: Serve the religion by shedding blood.
The people at the top pulling the strings are doing so for many reasons.

I invite you to watch the highly lauded comedy movie, this is very much the common sense of ISIS peeps:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew-SrlQ9tlI
It seems that there is no longer free speech in America. This is what the website said:
This video contains content from Optimum Releasing. It is not available in your country. Sorry about that.

Angel4Truth
November 13th, 2015, 07:07 PM
I'm not interested in answering questions to people who just want to chastisise and misrepresent me, to be frank. I'm not playing a game of being on the back foot. It's for mature, reasonable discussion, you seem very emotionally loaded.



This is a CHRISTIAN forum, you ARE on the backfoot.

Jesus Christ is the Lord God almighty, not a mere prophet, He died (crucified) for the sins of the world, including yours.

He was raised again to life on the third day and declared victory over death and sin and purchased us with His very blood.

Through that shed blood, we can receive forgiveness of sin and be reunited to God that we were separated from, because of sin.

Romans 10:9-10 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation

Jesus said there is NO WAY to the Father but by Him, and all those who believe will be saved.

Will you trust in Him for salvation, or will you worship the false god allah and die in your sins?

Wednesday Addams
November 13th, 2015, 07:14 PM
So a 6 year old girl wanted to marry a man in his late 40's?

Aisha's father: Aisha, what would you like for your 6th birthday?

Aisha: Do you know any men in their late 40's that will marry me?

http://iranpoliticsclub.net/cartoons/muhammad-aisha/images/Prophet%20Muhammad%20&%20Aisha%20his%20child%20bride%20marriage%20cartoo n.jpg

Now that I've mocked your pedophile false prophet, tell us about the 72 virgins and the pre-pubescent boys:

http://www.albatrus.org/english/religions/islam/72virgins_and_boys.htm

I don't believe this comment of yours is posed with any spirit that desires to reason, but just to push away reasonable discussion.

I would say to look at it holistically as I already answered your point fully. Aisha did want to marry him just to throw it out there.

As for your attempt to mock..lol...
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/2f/8a/2a/2f8a2a7da4383cbcbc19b9260fa2e977.gif

With regards to the 72 virgins, it's from Tirmidhi Hadith lol, that hadith has no chain of transmission, it's a farce.

In Heaven, you get to experience great things, from a pure non-toxifying wine to hearing David sing the Psalms. The 'boys' you speak of are those who will just serve you. It's a shame sick minds turn that into perversion.

CherubRam
November 13th, 2015, 07:15 PM
Yes. I firmly believe this. ISIS was actually created by the CIA, this is a known fact even Hilary Clinton admitted that.

I believe it operates under a pyramidal structure. Dumb sociopaths/psychopaths/narcissists at the bottom joining ISIS thinking they can kill two birds with one stone: Serve the religion by shedding blood.
The people at the top pulling the strings are doing so for many reasons.

I invite you to watch the highly lauded comedy movie, this is very much the common sense of ISIS peeps:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew-SrlQ9tlI

From Wikipedia:
The Arab Spring (Arabic: الربيع العربي‎, ar-rabīˁ al-ˁarabī) was a revolutionary wave of demonstrations and protests (both non-violent and violent), riots, and civil wars in the Arab world that began on 18 December 2010 in Tunisia with the Tunisian Revolution, and spread throughout the countries of the Arab League...

Founder of ISIS: Abu Musab al-Zarqawi
Founded in1999

Angel4Truth
November 13th, 2015, 07:16 PM
What was the hajj used for before Muhammad?

Wednesday Addams
November 13th, 2015, 07:25 PM
Ever been to Paris?

No. Through your paranoia of me being a troll, you've been trolling me with your accusation a lot, troll lol


Nah it's just one of my follow up questions. As in "do you need a date tonight...how much money you got"

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/105/262/155.png


Why are you still a Muslim knowing what your religion is doing across the world?

Why are you still a Christian knowing what your religion did across the world throughout its history?
The truth is, I don't judge and draw perceptions of Christians based on their history. I don't judge Germans by the Hitler regime etc.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/non-muslims-carried-out-more-than-90-of-all-terrorist-attacks-in-america/5333619
http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/01/08/3609796/islamist-terrorism-europe/

When isolated and focus grouped, virtually all of those who did things in the name of Islam was actually a politically motivated attack.



He hates God. :duh:

Wednesday Addams
November 13th, 2015, 07:28 PM
It seems that there is no longer free speech in America. This is what the website said:
This video contains content from Optimum Releasing. It is not available in your country. Sorry about that.

Type in Four Lions Trailer on youtube..
well I hope this one works:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ8KwVp0MR8

Angel4Truth
November 13th, 2015, 07:31 PM
One only need to turn on the evening news to know what Islam believes in. You can whine all day about 'unfairly' represented, but the world is a witness to it in action especially in the atrocities within primarily Islamic countries.

Heres another question for you, if you could actually answer some:

What does islam offer a woman?


I'm not interested in answering questions to people who just want to chastisise and misrepresent me, to be frank. I'm not playing a game of being on the back foot. It's for mature, reasonable discussion, you seem very emotionally loaded.

I honestly had given you the answer. You don't know what it means because you're insistent on suggesting it is what you say it is, I'm here telling you it's not, there's really not much more I can say. I invited you to look at a great in depth article on it but you refused. I gave you an answer, and you balked. That's not open minded.


This is a CHRISTIAN forum, you ARE on the backfoot.

Jesus Christ is the Lord God almighty, not a mere prophet, He died (crucified) for the sins of the world, including yours.

He was raised again to life on the third day and declared victory over death and sin and purchased us with His very blood.

Through that shed blood, we can receive forgiveness of sin and be reunited to God that we were separated from, because of sin.

Romans 10:9-10 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation

Jesus said there is NO WAY to the Father but by Him, and all those who believe will be saved.

Will you trust in Him for salvation, or will you worship the false god allah and die in your sins?


]What was the hajj used for before Muhammad?

Wednesday Addams
November 13th, 2015, 07:38 PM
Angel4Truth, I'm not responding to you, you're a beginner level troll and a waste of time.

CherubRam
November 13th, 2015, 07:40 PM
What was the hajj used for before Muhammad?

The Hajj has a pagan history only before the time of Muhammad.

Angel4Truth
November 13th, 2015, 07:42 PM
The Hajj has a pagan history only before the time of Muhammad.

I know, i wanted to make sure he knew that and wanted to see if he could even answer it.

CherubRam
November 13th, 2015, 07:44 PM
Type in Four Lions Trailer on youtube..
well I hope this one works:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ8KwVp0MR8

It's a comedy show. You do know what comedy is, do you not?

Angel4Truth
November 13th, 2015, 07:44 PM
Angel4Truth, I'm not responding to you, you're a beginner level troll and a waste of time.

You are the troll. I do not intend to even begin to allow you to proselytize your demonic religion here without challenge.

You aren't answering questions either.

Quetzal
November 13th, 2015, 07:52 PM
Quite an overreaction, don't you think, Bybee?

Jamie Gigliotti
November 13th, 2015, 07:59 PM
Wednesday seemed like an opportunity to demolish a stronghold that set itself up against Christ.

Angel4Truth
November 13th, 2015, 08:00 PM
Quite an overreaction, don't you think, Bybee?

Why is it an over-reaction to ban previous trolls that were banned before?

CherubRam
November 13th, 2015, 08:06 PM
Why are you still a Christian knowing what your religion did across the world throughout its history?


It was the Catholics who killed protestant Christians. It was the Catholics who fought the Muslims.

CherubRam
November 13th, 2015, 08:10 PM
Why is it an over-reaction to ban previous trolls that were banned before?

I actually think he was answering the best he could. People in Muslim countries have a completely different indoctrination as to the history of the world.

jamie
November 13th, 2015, 08:40 PM
The Qur'an says Jesus died a natural death and just appeared to have been crucified.


And their saying, "We did kill the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah;" whereas they slew him not, nor crucified him, but he was made to appear to them like one crucified..." (Al-Nisa' Chapter 4 : Verse 158)

Sherman
November 13th, 2015, 08:44 PM
Quite an overreaction, don't you think, Bybee?

I just got through reading this guy's posts. His dialog was quite dishonest. Knight would have canned him too. Bybee made the right call.:up:

disturbo
November 13th, 2015, 08:55 PM
It was the Catholics who killed protestant Christians. It was the Catholics who fought the Muslims.

Wick Stick
November 13th, 2015, 09:13 PM
The Muslims were the major cause of the Crusades.
Not really.

The church of 1000AD interpreted the 1000-year reign of Christ as being literal and from heaven. Since 1000 years had elapsed since the crucifixion/resurrection/ascension, they were anticipating the return of Christ to earth.

When that didn't happen, they decided it was because there was no state of Israel. So they decided to help make that happen.

That's how it got started. Later on it was just about war profiteering.

Jarrod

aCultureWarrior
November 13th, 2015, 09:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by disturbo
The Muslims were the major cause of the Crusades.


Not really.

The church of 1000AD interpreted the 1000-year reign of Christ as being literal and from heaven. Since 1000 years had elapsed since the crucifixion/resurrection/ascension, they were anticipating the return of Christ to earth.

When that didn't happen, they decided it was because there was no state of Israel. So they decided to help make that happen.

That's how it got started. Later on it was just about war profiteering.

Jarrod

Educate yourself.

TMGRGtiO9Ro

FZaQvgqlp4M

musterion
November 14th, 2015, 06:18 AM
Yay Byb!

aCultureWarrior
November 14th, 2015, 09:49 AM
Yay Byb!

While I prefer to silence opposition with the truth, there are plenty of left wing/Muslim apologist TOL'ers to take Wednesday Addams' place.

bybee
November 14th, 2015, 10:35 AM
While I prefer to silence opposition with the truth, there are plenty of left wing/Muslim apologist TOL'ers to take Wednesday Addams' place.

There is honor in truth.
There is high potential for dishonor in propaganda.

Jamie Gigliotti
November 14th, 2015, 10:44 AM
There is honor in truth.
There is high potential for dishonor in propaganda.

Hey bybee, you guys have a tough job. I get the banning, stop the proliferation of lies. In my mind I feel inclined to defeat those lies with the truth.
I respect your decision, like I said I'm sure it's a tough call.
Thanks for what you guys do!

aikido7
November 14th, 2015, 12:52 PM
...like instructions to kill the unbelievers. The historical context is paramount in understanding this.Many Christians believe it is right and moral to “kill the unbelievers” as well, and they can easily point to their Bible to justify this.

Is that what is going on in Islam?

Is the Muslim religion composed of a conflict between the literalist fundamentalists and those members who accept the values and morality of the new emerging global culture?

aCultureWarrior
November 14th, 2015, 08:44 PM
Many Christians believe it is right and moral to “kill the unbelievers” as well, and they can easily point to their Bible to justify this.


I remember when you first came to TOL. Long before you bastardized Holy Scripture to defend faggotry, you were a devout defender of Islam.

You haven't changed a bit, your hatred of Judeo/Christian doctrine is the same as it's always been.

CherubRam
November 14th, 2015, 09:05 PM
Many Christians believe it is right and moral to “kill the unbelievers” as well, and they can easily point to their Bible to justify this.


That was many years ago.

Catholic Inquisition
An ecclesiastical tribunal established by Pope Gregory IX circa 1232 for the suppression of heresy. It was active chiefly in northern Italy and southern France, becoming notorious for the use of torture and death. In 1542 the papal Inquisition was re-established to combat Protestantism, eventually becoming an organ of papal government.

brewmama
November 14th, 2015, 10:07 PM
It was the Catholics who killed protestant Christians. It was the Catholics who fought the Muslims.

And it was Protestants that killed Catholics and other Protestants too. What is your point?

chrysostom
November 14th, 2015, 10:18 PM
And it was Protestants that killed Catholics and other Protestants too. What is your point?

the important thing
is
the good guys won

aikido7
November 14th, 2015, 11:26 PM
I remember when you first came to TOL. Long before you bastardized Holy Scripture to defend faggotry, you were a devout defender of Islam.

You haven't changed a bit, your hatred of Judeo/Christian doctrine is the same as it's always been.I am sorry you feel that way.

Just because I am a Christian who takes Jesus’s teachings seriously I am often condemned and mocked on TOL. I usually present biblical information about Jesus but the verses and passages I quote curiously fail to register with most posters.

Your comments say much about your own fear and narrow-minded formulations than they say anything remotely true about me.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++
Since my reply to you, I have been condemned by my own spiritual pride. I do NOT "take Jesus seriously." I only TRY to do so. And fail often.

aikido7
November 14th, 2015, 11:29 PM
That was many years ago.

Catholic Inquisition
An ecclesiastical tribunal established by Pope Gregory IX circa 1232 for the suppression of heresy. It was active chiefly in northern Italy and southern France, becoming notorious for the use of torture and death. In 1542 the papal Inquisition was re-established to combat Protestantism, eventually becoming an organ of papal government.Just the other day I read a Christian interpretation of John of Patmos’s Revelation where it called out the passages that say Jesus slaughters the unfaithful so horrifically that their blood reaches to the level of Jesus’s horse’s bridles for a distance of 200 miles.

Different theologies and interpretations are much feared on TOL. The system of giving a poster “reps” proves this fact.

aikido7
November 14th, 2015, 11:30 PM
WEDNESDAY ADDAMS--
Many Christians believe it is right and moral to “kill the unbelievers” as well, and they can easily point to their Bible to justify this.

Is that what is going on in Islam?

Is the Muslim religion composed of a conflict between the literalist fundamentalists and those members who accept the values and morality of the new emerging global culture?

everready
November 14th, 2015, 11:41 PM
And it was Protestants that killed Catholics and other Protestants too. What is your point?

They may have called themselves Protestants but they weren't Christians.

I John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.


everready

CherubRam
November 15th, 2015, 03:11 AM
And it was Protestants that killed Catholics and other Protestants too. What is your point?

I have never heard or read any such thing.

George Affleck
November 15th, 2015, 06:12 AM
When Muslims spearhead the fight against terrorism, then I will respect Islam as a world religion. Until then, they are complicit sympathizers and share the guilt with murderers.

Police your own or face extinction.
Christians are nice until they are not.

CherubRam
November 15th, 2015, 06:37 AM
When Muslims spearhead the fight against terrorism, then I will respect Islam as a world religion. Until then, they are complicit sympathizers and share the guilt with murderers.

Police your own or face extinction.
Christians are nice until they are not.

Good point, but there are Muslims fighting against terrorist.

bybee
November 15th, 2015, 06:50 AM
Good point, but there are Muslims fighting against terrorist.

In the worldwide scheme of terrorism the moderate Muslim voice is still and small and ineffective.

George Affleck
November 15th, 2015, 07:06 AM
Good point, but there are Muslims fighting against terrorist.

I do not doubt that and good for them.
The others? Ship 'em out!
They are the Cloud that hides the guilty; a deliberate fog of war, and there are plenty of ways they show who they are.

There are those who want an Islamic State. That is not religion, that is treason. Get them out by whatever means necessary.

There are those who sympathize with brothers who want an Islamic State. That is not religion that is treason. Get them out by whatever means necessary.

George Affleck
November 15th, 2015, 07:20 AM
This is now the tipping point of whether Islam can or cannot survive. We've got their number now! We know what they want and we will not give it to them.

Either they get hold of their own system and strangle the extremists or we will do it for them. And just as we were relentless in two world wars, we will be relentless now.

This is the point at which western culture will, from here on, vote overwhelmingly for hard line politicians who will take decisive action. Unfortunately, in Canada, we just elected another impotent liberal so we have to wait while Canada, again, as usual, contributes little. It will be different 4 years from now.

bybee
November 15th, 2015, 07:22 AM
I do not doubt that and good for them.
The others? Ship 'em out!
They are the Cloud that hides the guilty; a deliberate fog of war, and there are plenty of ways they show who they are.

There are those who want an Islamic State. That is not religion, that is treason. Get them out by whatever means necessary.

There are those who sympathize with brothers who want an Islamic State. That is not religion that is treason. Get them out by whatever means necessary.
Amen Brother!

Interplanner
November 15th, 2015, 08:43 AM
I have never heard or read any such thing.



There were quite a few conflicts between protestant and Catholic after the Reformation. This was true as long as the mistake of state churches or combined governmental powers was still going on.

One of the features of the Reformers (which had wide agreement) was that the Pope was antichrist. To deflect this an eschatology was developed by a Jesuit priest that 'solved' it. It said that everything would happen in Israel and AC would be a Jewish traitor figure. And it would all be in the future. This became popular with the Brethren movement, who were very concerned about the protestant-Catholic friction.

You have to understand that, whether those points were true or not, it was welcomed in the 1800s with quite a bit of enthusiasm because it ended the ongoing friction between protestants and Catholics.

Interplanner
November 15th, 2015, 08:50 AM
The insurmountable doctrinal problems of Islam are 1, that it is not reformable, and 2, the doctrine of al-Taqia allows for the kind of infiltration that throws the whole thing wide open to suspicion. Al-Taqia means something like 'advantageous deception'--the follower can even deny being a Muslim if there is later value for Islam in doing so. It explains why apparently very nice people are sent to perform the worst of acts. I forget the year, but a few years after 2001 several Muslim doctors were apprehended on a plot to bring down several airliners departing London for north America. As I recall, there were chemical acts involved and it was to take place right after departure; Britain was the target.

WizardofOz
November 15th, 2015, 10:42 AM
Quite an overreaction, don't you think, Bybee?

I'd say so...

iouae
November 15th, 2015, 11:33 AM
Every time Christians have gone on a crusade it has been a disaster.
The crusades against the muslims a millennium ago were disasters.
Catholics killing Protestants is a disaster.
Protestants killing Catholics is a disaster.
We don't need a new crusade against anybody.
Live and let live till Christ returns. That is my motto.

Quincy
November 15th, 2015, 01:42 PM
When Muslims spearhead the fight against terrorism, then I will respect Islam as a world religion. Until then, they are complicit sympathizers and share the guilt with murderers.

Police your own or face extinction.
Christians are nice until they are not.

Westernized Muslims are pacifists, autonomous and live isolated, though. You know that, you're in Ontario. I've lived there (even among them for a few years) and there are plenty of Muslims and they stay to themselves, probably because they think other people don't like them and partly because they want to live by their own rules. So they will never spearhead anything..... ever.

Just leave them alone. If they go back, they'll be forced to help the jihadists and their kids will be born into that system. What needs to be done is to eliminate the jihadists, swiftly. Truly utter, humiliating destruction. Chaos has a way of leaving behind peace.

bybee
November 15th, 2015, 01:46 PM
Westernized Muslims are pacifists, autonomous and live isolated, though. You know that, you're in Ontario. I've lived there (even among them for a few years) and there are plenty of Muslims and they stay to themselves, probably because they think other people don't like them and partly because they want to live by their own rules. So they will never spearhead anything..... ever.

Just leave them alone. If they go back, they'll be forced to help the jihadists and their kids will be born into that system. What needs to be done is to eliminate the jihadists, swiftly. Truly utter, humiliating destruction. Chaos has a way of leaving behind peace.

You make very good points! I am careful of what others regard as sacred. I'm very private myself. The Jihadists are not about religion. They are about power. And they are as big a threat to moderate Muslims as the are to Christians and Jews.

George Affleck
November 15th, 2015, 01:49 PM
The insurmountable doctrinal problems of Islam are 1, that it is not reformable, and 2, the doctrine of al-Taqia allows for the kind of infiltration that throws the whole thing wide open to suspicion. Al-Taqia means something like 'advantageous deception'--the follower can even deny being a Muslim if there is later value for Islam in doing so. It explains why apparently very nice people are sent to perform the worst of acts. I forget the year, but a few years after 2001 several Muslim doctors were apprehended on a plot to bring down several airliners departing London for north America. As I recall, there were chemical acts involved and it was to take place right after departure; Britain was the target.

This is why I claim it is not a religion. It is an ideology with one goal; the overthrow of the west, masquerading as a religion. Western countries need to label it what it is: treason. If you can't fight against it, then we can't trust you not to rise up against us - out you go.

From this moment I will not trust a Muslim. I will not frequent areas where Muslims are. I will not vote for a Muslim or a candidate who protects Muslims. I will go out of my way to not give them my business. And I will teach my family that Islam is not a religion, it is an ideology of terror.

The next time you see a Muslim woman in a full burka, will you wonder how many bombs are strapped to her body?

Quincy
November 15th, 2015, 01:51 PM
You make very good points! I am careful of what others regard as sacred. I'm very private myself. The Jihadists are not about religion. They are about power. And they are as big a threat to moderate Muslims as the are to Christians and Jews.

There were good people in Nazi Germany, even. The Nazis, they had to go, though. Muslim jihadists hate westerners because of the way we live, our technology and the freedom we have. The fact that we're sitting here on the internet discussing topics alone makes unnatural to them and worth killing. They aren't going to just give up, sign a peace treaty and go home.

George Affleck
November 15th, 2015, 02:19 PM
You make very good points! I am careful of what others regard as sacred. I'm very private myself. The Jihadists are not about religion. They are about power. And they are as big a threat to moderate Muslims as the are to Christians and Jews.

If that is true, let the moderate Muslims prove it. They are the ones whose so-called religion is being dragged through the mud. Don't you think they, of all people, should want to see the name of their false god exonerated?

Here is the bottom line. Forget about religion for a minute. We can argue about that as a separate topic. The bottom line is; if there were no Muslims in France and no Muslim was ever allowed across the border, would this have happened? If we answer no, the problem is inextricably linked to Islam.

We have no problem killing some so-called innocent Muslims with firepower in another country if we can kill a couple of ISIS leaders with the same stroke. How is this different than accepting that moderate Muslims will be affected negatively by our actions here because they allow radicals to live among them?

Christians are tolerant until they realise they are being lied to. The tolerance being showed to Muslims is naivety.

6days
November 15th, 2015, 07:11 PM
We have no problem killing some so-called innocent Muslims with firepower in another country if we can kill a couple of ISIS leaders with the same stroke.
And they have no problem killing some so-called innocent infidels...us.

I don't have any easy answers but we are called to preach the gospel to every creature...to show love. Its SO easy for me to want to wipe "them" off the map.... but then realize I am no more deserving of the gift of salvation, than they are.
I guess one easy answer is to pray. Christ is working and changing lives in Muslim countries... We need to PRAY in love, because Jesus loves them.

bybee
November 15th, 2015, 07:17 PM
If that is true, let the moderate Muslims prove it. They are the ones whose so-called religion is being dragged through the mud. Don't you think they, of all people, should want to see the name of their false god exonerated?

Here is the bottom line. Forget about religion for a minute. We can argue about that as a separate topic. The bottom line is; if there were no Muslims in France and no Muslim was ever allowed across the border, would this have happened? If we answer no, the problem is inextricably linked to Islam.

We have no problem killing some so-called innocent Muslims with firepower in another country if we can kill a couple of ISIS leaders with the same stroke. How is this different than accepting that moderate Muslims will be affected negatively by our actions here because they allow radicals to live among them?

Christians are tolerant until they realise they are being lied to. The tolerance being showed to Muslims is naivety.

True!

George Affleck
November 15th, 2015, 07:55 PM
And they have no problem killing some so-called innocent infidels...us.

I don't have any easy answers but we are called to preach the gospel to every creature...to show love. Its SO easy for me to want to wipe "them" off the map.... but then realize I am no more deserving of the gift of salvation, than they are.
I guess one easy answer is to pray. Christ is working and changing lives in Muslim countries... We need to PRAY in love, because Jesus loves them.

I love what Paul has to say about what our view should be about the relationship that exists between those of faith and government. I especially like verse 3 and 4.

For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

And this was written at a time when rulers were mostly horrible!

As Christians we have every right to expect our governments to be a terror to evil, a revenger to execute wrath against evil. In fact, they are ministers of God to this end!! I have no argument with Muslims who do good works. I have a problem with Muslims who hide and protect murderers. If thou do that which is evil, be afraid!

iouae
November 15th, 2015, 10:13 PM
It is my strong belief that Satan is trying to get Christians to play his game.

And his game is to motivate Christians into a Holy War against Islam.

Satan has already got the radical Muslims involved in their Holy War or Jihad.
If Christians get suckered into that game, then the White Horse of Revelation has begun its ride.

Revelation 6:2
And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

This looks like a crusader. It has the appearance of a righteous cause, but is evil, and Satanic.

This exact same event is described in Matt 24:7

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

The Greek speaks of "nation" as "ethos". It is ethnic group against ethnic group. This is describing a clash of cultures. Such as a clash of Christianity against Islam. This clash of cultures is Satan inspired.

What I see happening is that the West's response will for a while longer, continue to be weak and indecisive. This creates fertile ground for the Man of Sin to stand up and suggest he can solve the terrorism problem with a "Holy War" or crusade. People will be so desperate for any solution that they will willingly give him their support.

George Affleck
November 15th, 2015, 11:56 PM
It is my strong belief that Satan is trying to get Christians to play his game.

And his game is to motivate Christians into a Holy War against Islam.


Christians have no country, no army and no weapons.
They rely on governments for protection which are, for the most part, non-Christian or, at best, nominally Judeo/Christian based.
The same is true of the Jews. Israel is a democratic, not theocratic, nation.

There will be no holy war between Christians and Islam.

iouae
November 16th, 2015, 01:23 AM
There will be no holy war between Christians and Islam.

I am glad to hear that.

I believe the West should leave the Muslim nations completely alone.
The West needs to adopt China's foreign policy. Take their resources, leave their politics.

eddie17
November 16th, 2015, 02:16 AM
wow i never knew muhammed was this bad,just wow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYyXGcZrMQc

Jerome84
November 16th, 2015, 04:34 AM
Make sure it's a legit question, not something like 'how many people have you bombed?'

If you ever did have a question, I'll be happy to help and if I can't I'll try and direct you to the right place.

I've analysed Christianity quite a lot. From trinity to the resurrection, Paul etc. I can talk to you about why I don't believe in Christianity.

Ultimately, we accept all of the prophets of the O.T. We believe John the Baptist was a prophet, and Jesus was the messiah, God's Word, a prophet who delivered the gospel (the original message from his mouth) and that he will rule the earth as the king of kings in the Messianic age. We also believe he was born of Virgin Mary (who is esteemed as the most Holy woman to walk the earth, by Muslims).
Our fundamental difference is that we just don't think God is a trinity, and we don't believe he died for our sins.

This is identical to the Islamic declaration of faith, and was certainly the same for the time of Jesus:
'Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.'
Eternal life for Islam is 'there is only one God, and Muhammad is the messenger/whom God has sent'.

How can you obey a dead warlord, Muhammed? He led armies and killed innocent people after victory.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Genocide_of_Banu_Qurayza

Muhammed spread Islam with the sword like ISIS does today.
ISIS are the only true muslims, they follow the "Quran".
The Quran forces its followers to kill certain people. The versus clearly states so. Muhammed did it, massacring thousands of civilians.

If you are not a member of ISIS and say you are muslim then I advice you to read that book. The Quran. No use in being religous and just skipping out on "the holy book" right?


Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"


Helping you out a little. There are plenty more to read. Happy reading!
:)

Jamie Gigliotti
November 16th, 2015, 09:32 AM
How can you obey a dead warlord, Muhammed? He led armies and killed innocent people after victory.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/The_Genocide_of_Banu_Qurayza

Muhammed spread Islam with the sword like ISIS does today.
ISIS are the only true muslims, they follow the "Quran".
The Quran forces its followers to kill certain people. The versus clearly states so. Muhammed did it, massacring thousands of civilians.

If you are not a member of ISIS and say you are muslim then I advice you to read that book. The Quran. No use in being religous and just skipping out on "the holy book" right?


Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (4:76) - "Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah…"

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"


Helping you out a little. There are plenty more to read. Happy reading!
:)
The teaching is dangerous. Ideas we see played out in horrific ways. The moderate Muslims don't fully buy into Quran killing teaching, that doesn't make Islam or the Quran less dangerous. Islam being accepted as a religion seems insane.

As Christians do we take seriously the radical love that the New Testament teaches? I pray we do.

Obviously those shedding blood the authorities should stop the threat immediately.

I think we have to remember who the enemy is. The Devil started this hateful heresy. And Christ is the way those deceived by it can be saved, and thwarted.

Truster
November 16th, 2015, 10:03 AM
The teaching is dangerous. Ideas we see played out in horrific ways. The moderate Muslims don't fully buy into Quran killing teaching, that doesn't make Islam or the Quran less dangerous. Islam being accepted as a religion seems insane.

As Christians do we take seriously the radical love that the New Testament teaches? I pray we do.

Obviously those shedding blood the authorities should stop the threat immediately.

I think we have to remember who the enemy is. The Devil started this hateful heresy. And Christ is the way those deceived by it can be saved, and thwarted.


Satan does not start or create anything. He is an instrument that is used by the Eternal Almighty to fulfill His will. It pleases the Almighty to use the wicked to destroy the wicked.

bybee
November 16th, 2015, 10:05 AM
Satan does not start or create anything. He is an instrument that is used by the Eternal Almighty to fulfill His will. It pleases the Almighty to use the wicked to destroy the wicked.

Satan cannot create. In and of himself he cannot destroy.
But through infecting the human mind and soul he may cause destruction.

Zeke
November 16th, 2015, 10:49 AM
Christians have no country, no army and no weapons.
They rely on governments for protection which are, for the most part, non-Christian or, at best, nominally Judeo/Christian based.
The same is true of the Jews. Israel is a democratic, not theocratic, nation.

There will be no holy war between Christians and Islam.

Brain washing 101 on how to make indoctrinated slaves defend the actions of their parasitic masters. Common sense speaks to this type of thinking as being warped and unnatural.

The Muslims wouldn't have a stronghold in France if people hadn't been under the same type of delusion, a fact you should ponder before they burn you're house down.

bybee
November 16th, 2015, 10:51 AM
Brain washing 101 on how to make indoctrinated slaves defend the actions of their parasitic masters. Common sense speaks to this type of thinking as being warped and unnatural.

The Muslims wouldn't have a stronghold in France if people hadn't been under the same type of delusion, a fact you should ponder before they burn you're house down.

How about your house?

Zeke
November 16th, 2015, 11:15 AM
How about your house?

It was pretty wonderful years back, though I wasn't alive when she was wild and clean and unpolluted she still had some shine in my younger years.

bybee
November 16th, 2015, 11:42 AM
It was pretty wonderful years back, though I wasn't alive when she was wild and clean and unpolluted she still had some shine in my younger years.

As a house grows old it acquires character.

Jerome84
November 16th, 2015, 11:55 AM
The teaching is dangerous. Ideas we see played out in horrific ways. The moderate Muslims don't fully buy into Quran killing teaching, that doesn't make Islam or the Quran less dangerous. Islam being accepted as a religion seems insane.

As Christians do we take seriously the radical love that the New Testament teaches? I pray we do.

Obviously those shedding blood the authorities should stop the threat immediately.

I think we have to remember who the enemy is. The Devil started this hateful heresy. And Christ is the way those deceived by it can be saved, and thwarted.

A muslim who is "moderate" is no muslim. He/she does not follow the teachings in the "Quran". Violence and war is central in Islam. Everyone who opposes Islam must be defeated. All muslim men has a duty to fight with weapons against the enemy. Hence the term "jihad" or holy war.

A moderate muslim is like a christian who proclaims that Jesus never existed. The foundation of a religion can not be overlooked and skipped.

Hardly any muslims admits that they know what Muhammed did. All the wars, killings and rapes he was responsible for with his "war of conquest".

And in this day and time I think that Islam should be banned. It is the most destructivbe force ever created by a human. It is pure and extreme fascism with violence as the political tool for control. Clearly stated in the Quran by Muhammed himself.


Islam = Satanic cult (according to todays standards)

(back in 600 AD when Muhammed and his pals murdered and raped they were like the rest of the world, but today... other world now)


I am not accusing any person who is "muslim" of anything. I am just making remarks about the religion/political system known in English as "Islam".

Jamie Gigliotti
November 16th, 2015, 11:58 AM
Satan does not start or create anything. He is an instrument that is used by the Eternal Almighty to fulfill His will. It pleases the Almighty to use the wicked to destroy the wicked.

He creates lies.
"You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a muderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies he speaks out of his own character, for he is liar and the father of lies." John 8:44

Jamie Gigliotti
November 16th, 2015, 12:06 PM
A muslim who is "moderate" is no muslim. He/she does not follow the teachings in the "Quran". Violence and war is central in Islam. Everyone who opposes Islam must be defeated. All muslim men has a duty to fight with weapons against the enemy. Hence the term "jihad" or holy war.

A moderate muslim is like a christian who proclaims that Jesus never existed. The foundation of a religion can not be overlooked and skipped.

Hardly any muslims admits that they know what Muhammed did. All the wars, killings and rapes he was responsible for with his "war of conquest".

And in this day and time I think that Islam should be banned. It is the most destructivbe force ever created by a human. It is pure and extreme fascism with violence as the political tool for control. Clearly stated in the Quran by Muhammed himself.


Islam = Satanic cult (according to todays standards)

(back in 600 AD when Muhammed and his pals murdered and raped they were like the rest of the world, but today... other world now)


I am not accusing any person who is "muslim" of anything. I am just making remarks about the religion/political system known in English as "Islam".

Yes the moderates try and turn it into something it is not.

Don't think banning is going to work, pretending it's not what it is won't either.

We seem to be at the height of the Spiritual war. We defeat evil with good. Satan's lies with Christ's truth, with His love, His power.

George Affleck
November 17th, 2015, 01:50 AM
Westernized Muslims are pacifists, autonomous and live isolated, though. You know that, you're in Ontario. I've lived there (even among them for a few years) and there are plenty of Muslims and they stay to themselves, probably because they think other people don't like them and partly because they want to live by their own rules. So they will never spearhead anything..... ever.

Just leave them alone. If they go back, they'll be forced to help the jihadists and their kids will be born into that system. What needs to be done is to eliminate the jihadists, swiftly. Truly utter, humiliating destruction. Chaos has a way of leaving behind peace.

I admit that this is one of the best arguments against what I am advocating. I also admit that there are many Muslims who wouldn't hurt a fly and do keep to themselves. But most of them are Muslims in name only and the way you describe them is precisely what I want to shake out of them.

From these ones I want to see a groundswell of internal opposition to that which is clearly wrong. Is it too much to ask of those who benefit so greatly from the protection of western democracy to uphold the freedom they enjoy? Is it too much to ask them to "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"? If so, of what country are they citizens?

What is wrong with wanting them to make a phone call like; "Excuse me Mr. policeman, this may be nothing and probably is, but my friend Mohammed next door is bragging that he knows where he can buy an AK-47 if he should ever want one. Do you think this is a bad thing?"

Those who will not get involved are making a decision just like those who make a decision to blow themselves up.

CherubRam
November 17th, 2015, 03:12 AM
A muslim who is "moderate" is no muslim. He/she does not follow the teachings in the "Quran". Violence and war is central in Islam. Everyone who opposes Islam must be defeated. All muslim men has a duty to fight with weapons against the enemy. Hence the term "jihad" or holy war.

A moderate muslim is like a christian who proclaims that Jesus never existed. The foundation of a religion can not be overlooked and skipped.

Hardly any muslims admits that they know what Muhammed did. All the wars, killings and rapes he was responsible for with his "war of conquest".

And in this day and time I think that Islam should be banned. It is the most destructivbe force ever created by a human. It is pure and extreme fascism with violence as the political tool for control. Clearly stated in the Quran by Muhammed himself.


Islam = Satanic cult (according to todays standards)

(back in 600 AD when Muhammed and his pals murdered and raped they were like the rest of the world, but today... other world now)


I am not accusing any person who is "muslim" of anything. I am just making remarks about the religion/political system known in English as "Islam".

Peaceful Muslims are thought of as apostates by other Muslims and are often killed for being such. When push comes to shove the peaceful Muslims join hands with the violent Muslims. That is the bottom line. And so you see, there is not really any peaceful Muslims, because they will flip flop.

Jerome84
November 17th, 2015, 06:48 AM
Peaceful Muslims are thought of as apostates by other Muslims and are often killed for being such. When push comes to shove the peaceful Muslims join hands with the violent Muslims. That is the bottom line. And so you see, there is not really any peaceful Muslims, because they will flip flop.

True. The muslims who wants peace really has to stand up for themselves and change religion. There are religions that were founded by men of peace. Christianity is one. Jesus never killed or ordered his 12 apostles to go out in war with weapons and kill. Jesus tried to teach about love and peace.

Muhammed and his armies in Arabia attacked cities and villages, killing, murdering and raping. There really are no peace in such actions. Muhammed was a warlord. A successful warlord due to his ruthlessness and brutality.

Jerome84
November 17th, 2015, 06:53 AM
Yes the moderates try and turn it into something it is not.

Don't think banning is going to work, pretending it's not what it is won't either.

We seem to be at the height of the Spiritual war. We defeat evil with good. Satan's lies with Christ's truth, with His love, His power.

"Islamists" are Satanists. Hate and violence is their tool, not love.

"The Satanic Verses is Salman Rushdie's fourth novel, first published in 1988 and inspired in part by the life of Muhammad."

Salman Rushdie has insight in what Islam really is. And of course most muslims wants him dead because he knows the truth... the horrible satanic truth about Islam.

brewmama
November 17th, 2015, 11:42 AM
"Islamists" are Satanists. Hate and violence is their tool, not love.

"The Satanic Verses is Salman Rushdie's fourth novel, first published in 1988 and inspired in part by the life of Muhammad."

Salman Rushdie has insight in what Islam really is. And of course most muslims wants him dead because he knows the truth... the horrible satanic truth about Islam.

I'm not denying that Islam is satanic, but the book was written about some verses that Mohammed put into the quran that so many people found offensive that it was decided that satan had made Mohammed put them in, and they were discarded. How convenient!

aikido7
November 17th, 2015, 04:16 PM
WEDNESDAY ADDAMS...

Have you heard of, or read anything by, Tawfik Hamid?

He is one of the few intelligent scholars who has studied Islam and believes that the “peaceful Muslim” is a myth. Hamid reads the Quran like a Christian who is focused on modern interpretations of the Bible’s Revelation.

There seems plenty of blood and gore to go around. But my question is a serious one.

There are lots of Muslims and Christians who see their faith as an expression of peace and love. But to do this it would seem both have to ignore the violent strains in their own texts.

Bright Raven
November 17th, 2015, 04:20 PM
What is the purpose of Radical Islam? What is the difference from plain Islam if there is one.

patrick jane
November 17th, 2015, 04:26 PM
WEDNESDAY ADDAMS...

Have you heard of, or read anything by, Tawfik Hamid?

He is one of the few intelligent scholars who has studied Islam and believes that the “peaceful Muslim” is a myth. Hamid reads the Quran like a Christian who is focused on modern interpretations of the Bible’s Revelation.

There seems plenty of blood and gore to go around. But my question is a serious one.

There are lots of Muslims and Christians who see their faith as an expression of peace and love. But to do this it would seem both have to ignore the violent strains in their own texts.


2 Timothy 2:1-2 KJV - 2 Timothy 2:3-4 KJV -

Wick Stick
November 17th, 2015, 05:25 PM
WEDNESDAY ADDAMS...

Have you heard of, or read anything by, Tawfik Hamid?

He is one of the few intelligent scholars who has studied Islam and believes that the “peaceful Muslim” is a myth. Hamid reads the Quran like a Christian who is focused on modern interpretations of the Bible’s Revelation.

There seems plenty of blood and gore to go around. But my question is a serious one.

There are lots of Muslims and Christians who see their faith as an expression of peace and love. But to do this it would seem both have to ignore the violent strains in their own texts.
Wednesday was banned somewhere around page 5.

The rest of this hullabaloo is just a bunch of people piling on, apropos of current events.

Jarrod

Apple7
November 17th, 2015, 10:18 PM
Eternal life for Islam is 'there is only one God, and Muhammad is the messenger/whom God has sent'.

When your ban expires...

Why, in the shahada, is 'Muhammad' spoken of in the very same breath as 'allah', if he is a mere man?

Apple7
November 17th, 2015, 10:24 PM
Also the Qur'an denies that God was Jesus' father.


Actually, it does not...

يأهل الكتب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله
إلا الحق إنما المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله
وكلمته ألقيها إلى مريم وروح منه فءامنوا بالله
ورسله ولا تقولوا ثلثة انتهوا خيرا لكم إنما الله
إله وحد سبحنه أن يكون له ولد له ما في
السموت وما في الأرض وكفى بالله وكيلا

Ya ahla alkitabi la taghloo fee deenikum wala taqooloo AAala Allahi illa alhaqqa innama almaseehu AAeesa ibnu maryama rasoolu Allahi wakalimatuhu alqaha ila maryama waroohun minhu faaminoo biAllahi warusulihi wala taqooloo thalathatun intahoo khayran lakum innama Allahu ilahun wahidun subhanahu an yakoona lahu waladun lahu ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi wakafa biAllahi wakeelan

4.171 You The Book's family, do not go beyond the limits in your faith, and they do not say on 'allah' except The Truth (is) only The Messiah Jesus, Mary's son, 'allah’s' messenger, and his Word, cast forth to her, Mary, and Spirit from him; so believe by 'allah', and his messengers, and they do not say "Three." Refrain (it is) certainly agreeable to you, only 'allah' one god glory be to him, that He has certainly been his Son, truly His what is in the heavens and in the earth and He sufficed by 'allah', a witness.

Apple7
November 17th, 2015, 10:44 PM
It's just the amalgamation of these facts working together, I am literally putting my eternal life on the line but 100% confidently in believing God is a Unitarian God.



Observe that this Koranic ayah (which, ironically Muslims are trained to use all the time for their position) actually plainly states that the Trinity is not “three”, but instead, it is “one”, and then proceeds to list out Father, Son, and Spirit…


يأهل الكتب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله
إلا الحق إنما المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله
وكلمته ألقيها إلى مريم وروح منه فءامنوا بالله
ورسله ولا تقولوا ثلثة انتهوا خيرا لكم إنما الله
إله وحد سبحنه أن يكون له ولد له ما في
السموت وما في الأرض وكفى بالله وكيلا

Ya ahla alkitabi la taghloo fee deenikum wala taqooloo AAala Allahi illa alhaqqa innama almaseehu AAeesa ibnu maryama rasoolu Allahi wakalimatuhu alqaha ila maryama waroohun minhu faaminoo biAllahi warusulihi wala taqooloo thalathatun intahoo khayran lakum innama Allahu ilahun wahidun subhanahu an yakoona lahu waladun lahu ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi wakafa biAllahi wakeelan

4.171 You The Book's family, certainly do not go beyond the limits in your faith, and they do not say on “allah” except The Truth (is) only the Messiah Jesus, Mary's son, “allah’s” messenger, and his Word, cast forth to her, Mary, and Spirit from him; so believe on account of “allah”, and His messengers, and they do not say: "Three." Refrain (it is) agreeable certainly your only “allah” one god glory be to him, that He has certainly been his Son, truly His what is in the heavens and what is in the earth and He sufficed on account of “allah”, a witness.



Observe that this ayah is directed at ‘The Book’s family’ (ahla alkitabi) – which refers to the followers of the Holy Bible; i.e. Christians.

For the Muslim, it then gives instruction as to what the correct interpretation of the Holy Bible needs to be regarding (among numerous things), the concept of the Trinity.


In this classic Islamic one-hit-wonder we are told not to refer to the one “allah” as “Three”, as even his messengers do not say “Three” - because he is not the result of counted things (thalathatun)….and yet, in the very ayah itself it lists-out directly, Father, Son, & Spirit.

This is a classic Koranic example in which the authors display their understanding of the Biblical concept of the Holy Trinity, and give the example of what it is not by the usage of the word “Three”…and what it is, by the example of “one”.

Apple7
November 17th, 2015, 10:56 PM
1d. All we have now are very strenuous interpretations of the gospels, in a way in which are written by authors whom we don't really know. We don't know who the oral transmitters are either nor their competence at transmission, we see massive evolutions of the Christology of Jesus from low to high as we go from Mark to John, whereby people increasingly believed Jesus was a divine being of some sort.

And he says to me, Write: Blessed are the ones having been called to the supper of the marriage of the Lamb. And he says to me, These Words of God are true. (Rev 19.9)


And I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of Heaven from God, having been prepared as a bride, having been adorned for her Husband. And I heard a great voice out of Heaven, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God with men! And He will tabernacle with them, and they will be His people, and God Himself will be with them as their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes. And death shall be no longer, nor mourning, nor outcry, nor will there be pain any more; for the first things passed away. And the One sitting on the throne said, Behold! I make all things new. And He says to me, Write, because these Words are faithful and true. (Rev 21.2 – 5)


And I, John, was the one seeing and hearing these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel showing me these things. (Rev 22.8)


The bulk of the Koranic material is taken directly from the Book of Revelation – of which, this Biblical material is clearly signed by John, as both seeing and hearing Jesus’ divine Revelation and writing it down.


John was directly inspired to write down the Words of God.



Now…

According to the followers of Islam, their “prophet Muhammad” was responsible for the written text which comprises their Koran.

If this is the case, then where in all of the Koran is anything like the following written…


“I, Muhammad, wrote this here Koran”

Or…

“I, Muhammad, dictated this here Koran”

Or…

“I, Muhammad, was inspired by an angel”

Or…

“I, Muhammad, was divinely inspired”



Fact is, the Koran never once mentions who wrote the text, nor that there were any eyewitnesses, nor that it was divinely inspired.


Not once.

In fact, it is written almost entirely in the third-person.


What it does claim, however, is that it merely copied and translated the previous inspired Jewish and Christian scriptures into Arabic.









Professor Bart Ehrman is a very good figure to look into for more on this.

If you were at all familiar with Ehrman's material, then you already know that he does NOT deny that the Holy Bible refers to Jesus as God!

jamie
November 17th, 2015, 11:03 PM
O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three". Cease! (it is) better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender. (Surah 4. An-Nisaa, Ayah 171)

aikido7
November 18th, 2015, 01:02 AM
Wednesday was banned somewhere around page 5.

The rest of this hullabaloo is just a bunch of people piling on, apropos of current events.

JarrodOh. Thanks for the information. I am frustrated that his ban happened at all. I could have learned some things that could have overturned my prejudices and feelings on the topic.

bsmitts
November 18th, 2015, 03:45 AM
[QUOTE=Wednesday Addams;4518115]Make sure it's a legit question, not something like 'how many people have you bombed?'

If you ever did have a question, I'll be happy to help and if I can't I'll try and direct you to the right place.

I've analysed Christianity quite a lot. From trinity to the resurrection, Paul etc. I can talk to you about why I don't believe in Christianity.

Ultimately, we accept all of the prophets of the O.T. We believe John the Baptist was a prophet, and Jesus was the messiah, God's Word, a prophet who delivered the gospel (the original message from his mouth) and that he will rule the earth as the king of kings in the Messianic age. We also believe he was born of Virgin Mary (who is esteemed as the most Holy woman to walk the earth, by Muslims).
Our fundamental difference is that we just don't think God is a trinity, and we don't believe he died for our sins.

This is identical to the Islamic declaration of faith, and was certainly the same for the time of Jesus:
'Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.'
Eternal life for Islam is 'there is only one God, and Muhammad is the messenger/whom God has sent'.[/QUOTE

Hebrews 9:22; 2Corinthians 5:20-21

bsmitts
November 18th, 2015, 04:25 AM
Hebrews 9:22; 2Corinthians 5:20-21; Hebrews 11:6; John 15:5

CherubRam
November 18th, 2015, 04:31 AM
[QUOTE=Wednesday Addams;4518115]Make sure it's a legit question, not something like 'how many people have you bombed?'

If you ever did have a question, I'll be happy to help and if I can't I'll try and direct you to the right place.

I've analysed Christianity quite a lot. From trinity to the resurrection, Paul etc. I can talk to you about why I don't believe in Christianity.

Ultimately, we accept all of the prophets of the O.T. We believe John the Baptist was a prophet, and Jesus was the messiah, God's Word, a prophet who delivered the gospel (the original message from his mouth) and that he will rule the earth as the king of kings in the Messianic age. We also believe he was born of Virgin Mary (who is esteemed as the most Holy woman to walk the earth, by Muslims).
Our fundamental difference is that we just don't think God is a trinity, and we don't believe he died for our sins.

This is identical to the Islamic declaration of faith, and was certainly the same for the time of Jesus:
'Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.'
Eternal life for Islam is 'there is only one God, and Muhammad is the messenger/whom God has sent'.[/QUOTE

Hebrews 9:22; 2Corinthians 5:20-21
You say that you are a Christian, and then you say you do not believe in Christianity. Does that mean you are a troll?

bsmitts
November 18th, 2015, 04:36 AM
[QUOTE=bsmitts;4522913]
You say that you are a Christian, and then you say you do not believe in Christianity. Does that mean you are a troll?

Are you referring to me?!!!

bsmitts
November 18th, 2015, 04:39 AM
Actually, I do have a question. How does Islam get rid of S-I-N.

CherubRam
November 18th, 2015, 04:40 AM
[QUOTE=CherubRam;4522943]

Are you referring to me?!!!
Yes, you.

Quote: "I can talk to you about why I don't believe in Christianity."

chrysostom
November 18th, 2015, 04:42 AM
Actually, I do have a question. How does Islam get rid of S-I-N.

you don't get rid of sin
but
you do have to account for it

bsmitts
November 18th, 2015, 04:56 AM
[QUOTE=bsmitts;4522946]
Yes, you.

Quote: "I can talk to you about why I don't believe in Christianity."

Can you read? I NEVER said I don't believe in Christianity. I do believe. However, I did quote bible verses.

CherubRam
November 18th, 2015, 05:05 AM
[QUOTE=CherubRam;4522951]

Can you read? I NEVER said I don't believe in Christianity. I do believe. However, I did quote bible verses.

Sorry about that, I thought that was your quote. You chopped of the end of the quote bracket, that's why I thought it was you speaking.

bsmitts
November 18th, 2015, 05:16 AM
[QUOTE=bsmitts;4522958]

Sorry about that, I thought that was your quote. You chopped of the end of the quote bracket, that's why I thought it was you speaking.

Hey no problem bud!

jamie
November 18th, 2015, 09:26 AM
Actually, I do have a question. How does Islam get rid of S-I-N.

The Qur'an does not mention sin or repentance.

Jerome84
November 18th, 2015, 10:22 AM
What is the purpose of Radical Islam? What is the difference from plain Islam if there is one.

Radical Islam wants to follow the Quran. They want to live like Muhammed lived. Muhammed was a successful warlord/general who murdered and killed to found a great empire or "caliphate".

Plain Islam are people who don't understand Islam, do not know who Muhammed was and what he did and who discard the teachings in the4 Quran. ISIS calls calls people of "plain Islam", heretics. And I agree.

Members of ålain Islam should change religion to wel... Christianity or some other peaceful religion. Jesus didn't sell women as sexslaves, Muahmmed did. Muhammed was a dirtbag and a satanist. No prophet.

One citation from the Quran:

"[8.65] O Prophet! urge the believers to war; if there are twenty patient ones of you they shall overcome two hundred, and if there are a hundred of you they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they are a people who do not understand [in other words, do not understand totalitarian ideologies like Islam]."

The Quran is Muhammeds "call to war". He aimed at conquering the whole world. But he died before he could do it. But his followers are ordered via the Quran to continue fighting the holy war he started (jihad) until all men are defeated. Oh look ISIS...

bsmitts
November 18th, 2015, 12:17 PM
The Qur'an does not mention sin or repentance.

Well, Jesus preached about sin quite a lot and said that all the evil people commit come from within the heart and defile the person. Mark 7:20-23.

Apple7
November 18th, 2015, 01:00 PM
O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three". Cease! (it is) better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender. (Surah 4. An-Nisaa, Ayah 171)


The phrase 'Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son' does not have any Arabic support.

Renderings such as this one have the islamic denial-bias poured full strength into the passage...

jamie
November 18th, 2015, 01:05 PM
The phrase 'Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son' does not have any Arabic support.

Renderings such as this one have the islamic denial-bias poured full strength into the passage...


How many times does the Qur'an use the term "Son of God"?

Apple7
November 18th, 2015, 10:07 PM
How many times does the Qur'an use the term "Son of God"?

Here are a couple...

وقالوا اتخذ الله ولدا سبحنه بل له ما في السموت
والأرض كل له قنتون بديع السموت والأرض وإذا قضى أمرا فإنما يقول له كن فيكون

Waqaloo itakhatha Allahu waladan subhanahu bal lahu ma fee alssamawati waal-ardi kullun lahu qanitoona badeeAAu alssamawati waal-ardi wa-itha qada amran fa-innama yaqoolu lahu kun fayakoonu

And they said: ‘he has taken the Son of allah, glory be to Him, much more certainly His that which (is) in the heavens and the earth, all are certainly obedient unto Him.’ Originator (of) the heavens and the earth and when commanded entirely by (the) Word, so only certainly Him, He says: ‘Be thou.’ so (it) is. (2.116 – 117)


These ayahs not only confirm that Jesus Christ is The Son, with the glory being unto Him (subhanahu), but that the entire Universe was originated (badeeAAu) by the Son and His powerful Word.





قالوا اتخذ الله ولدا سبحنه هو الغني له ما في السموت وما في الأرض إن عندكم من سلطن بهذا أتقولون على الله ما لا تعلمون

Qaloo itakhatha Allahu waladan subhanahu huwa alghaniyyu lahu ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi in AAindakum min sultanin bihatha ataqooloona AAala Allahi ma la taAAlamoona

They said: ‘he has taken the Son of allah, glory be to Him, He is the rich, truly His that which is in the heavens and that which is in the earth, indeed in the presence of you from authority with that, are you saying about allah what you do not know? (10.68)


Another positive ID that Jesus is the Son.

bybee
November 18th, 2015, 10:29 PM
Here are a couple...

وقالوا اتخذ الله ولدا سبحنه بل له ما في السموت
والأرض كل له قنتون بديع السموت والأرض وإذا قضى أمرا فإنما يقول له كن فيكون

Waqaloo itakhatha Allahu waladan subhanahu bal lahu ma fee alssamawati waal-ardi kullun lahu qanitoona badeeAAu alssamawati waal-ardi wa-itha qada amran fa-innama yaqoolu lahu kun fayakoonu

And they said: ‘he has taken the Son of allah, glory be to Him, much more certainly His that which (is) in the heavens and the earth, all are certainly obedient unto Him.’ Originator (of) the heavens and the earth and when commanded entirely by (the) Word, so only certainly Him, He says: ‘Be thou.’ so (it) is. (2.116 – 117)


These ayahs not only confirm that Jesus Christ is The Son, with the glory being unto Him (subhanahu), but that the entire Universe was originated (badeeAAu) by the Son and His powerful Word.





قالوا اتخذ الله ولدا سبحنه هو الغني له ما في السموت وما في الأرض إن عندكم من سلطن بهذا أتقولون على الله ما لا تعلمون

Qaloo itakhatha Allahu waladan subhanahu huwa alghaniyyu lahu ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi in AAindakum min sultanin bihatha ataqooloona AAala Allahi ma la taAAlamoona

They said: ‘he has taken the Son of allah, glory be to Him, He is the rich, truly His that which is in the heavens and that which is in the earth, indeed in the presence of you from authority with that, are you saying about allah what you do not know? (10.68)


Another positive ID that Jesus is the Son.

On what authority then do you suppose that Islamic extremists are burning Christian churches and slaughtering Christians?

patrick jane
November 18th, 2015, 10:42 PM
Here are a couple...

وقالوا اتخذ الله ولدا سبحنه بل له ما في السموت
والأرض كل له قنتون بديع السموت والأرض وإذا قضى أمرا فإنما يقول له كن فيكون

Waqaloo itakhatha Allahu waladan subhanahu bal lahu ma fee alssamawati waal-ardi kullun lahu qanitoona badeeAAu alssamawati waal-ardi wa-itha qada amran fa-innama yaqoolu lahu kun fayakoonu

And they said: ‘he has taken the Son of allah, glory be to Him, much more certainly His that which (is) in the heavens and the earth, all are certainly obedient unto Him.’ Originator (of) the heavens and the earth and when commanded entirely by (the) Word, so only certainly Him, He says: ‘Be thou.’ so (it) is. (2.116 – 117)


These ayahs not only confirm that Jesus Christ is The Son, with the glory being unto Him (subhanahu), but that the entire Universe was originated (badeeAAu) by the Son and His powerful Word.





قالوا اتخذ الله ولدا سبحنه هو الغني له ما في السموت وما في الأرض إن عندكم من سلطن بهذا أتقولون على الله ما لا تعلمون

Qaloo itakhatha Allahu waladan subhanahu huwa alghaniyyu lahu ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi in AAindakum min sultanin bihatha ataqooloona AAala Allahi ma la taAAlamoona

They said: ‘he has taken the Son of allah, glory be to Him, He is the rich, truly His that which is in the heavens and that which is in the earth, indeed in the presence of you from authority with that, are you saying about allah what you do not know? (10.68)


Another positive ID that Jesus is the Son.

Please go teach them the good news !!!

Colossians 1:16 KJV

jamie
November 18th, 2015, 10:52 PM
Another positive ID that Jesus is the Son.


Then the sects differed [i.e. the Christians about 'Iesa (Jesus) ], so woe unto the disbelievers [those who gave false witness by saying that 'Iesa (Jesus) is the son of Allah] from the meeting of a great Day (i.e. the Day of Resurrection, when they will be thrown in the blazing Fire). (Surah 19.37)

And they say: "The Most Beneficent (Allah) has begotten a son (or children)." Glory to Him! They [those whom they call children of Allah i.e. the angels, 'Iesa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary), 'Uzair (Ezra), etc.], are but honoured slaves. (Surah 21.26)

And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), but must believe in him ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allah and a human being], before his ['Iesa (Jesus) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he ['Iesa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them. (Surah 4.159)

Apple7
November 18th, 2015, 11:42 PM
On what authority then do you suppose that Islamic extremists are burning Christian churches and slaughtering Christians?

They are a demon-possessed people.

They follow islam instead of their Koran.

Apple7
November 18th, 2015, 11:45 PM
And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), but must believe in him ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allah and a human being], before his ['Iesa (Jesus) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he ['Iesa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them. (Surah 4.159)


وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا بل رفعه الله إليه وكان الله عزيزا حكيما وإن من أهل الكتب إلا ليؤمنن به قبل موته ويوم القيمة يكون عليهم شهيدا

Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan bal rafaAAahu Allahu ilayhi wakana Allahu AAazeezan hakeeman wa-in min ahli alkitabi illa layu/minanna bihi qabla mawtihi wayawma alqiyamati yakoonu AAalayhim shaheedan

And their saying: "Truly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, allah's messenger", and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they followed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him. But “allah”, he raised Him to him, and “allah” was mighty, wise. And that from The Book's people, except he certainly shall believe with Him before His death; and the Resurrection Day is on them a witness. (4.157 – 159)

intojoy
November 19th, 2015, 02:09 AM
What hand do you eat with?

bybee
November 19th, 2015, 04:14 AM
They are a demon-possessed people.

They follow islam instead of their Koran.

Interesting.

jamie
November 19th, 2015, 08:50 AM
And for their saying, "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of God." In fact, they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them as if they did. Indeed, those who differ about him are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it, except the following of assumptions. Certainly, they did not kill him. (Surah 4.157)

WonderfulLordJesus
November 19th, 2015, 11:35 AM
All the murderous violence in the Quran against other faiths aside, the devil a murderer from the beginning and the father of such things (John 8:44), Islam denies the Son of God, the deity of Christ, is, therefore, by Bible definition, an antichrist religion, a lie of the devil, and anybody in concord with things antichrist is a child of the devil. Nobody serves two masters. Enough said.

1 John 2:18. 22 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Apple7
November 19th, 2015, 08:26 PM
And for their saying, "We have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the Messenger of God." In fact, they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them as if they did. Indeed, those who differ about him are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it, except the following of assumptions. Certainly, they did not kill him. (Surah 4.157)

When asked about Jesus’ Crucifixion, Muslims will invariably reference one ayah from the Koran, to support their conviction.

Islam bases an entire doctrine regarding Jesus’ crucifixion & death upon the cross, on a single solitary Koranic ayah.

And in this single solitary ayah, the entire doctrine teeters upon the rendering of a single solitary word (wama) – which Islam has misinterpreted as a negative.


The correct rendering of this ayah is as thus…




وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا

Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

4.157 And their saying: "Truly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they differed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.


To overcome the Muslim mindset, we need to first define the Arabic word that has been misinterpreted by Islam.

Here is the classic Arabic definition for "ma"...

ما = “ma”

“ma” definition:

Conjunctive pronoun. That; which; that which; whatsoever; what; as; as much; in such a manner as; as much as; as for as; any kind; when; how. Does not, as a rule, refer to reasonable things, but instances to the contrary sometimes occur. It is one of those particles, which, in conditional propositions, govern the verb in the conditional mood; it is frequently a mere expletive. It is also a negative adverb, Not; in general it denies a circumstance either present, or of past, but little remote from the present; it governs the attribute in the accusative, thus it is a negative particle when placed before the perfect as in 53.2; or before a pronoun as in 68.2; or before an demonstrative noun as in 12.31. The particle, when joined to the perfect, denies the past; when joined to the imperfect, the present.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume eight, p. 3016
A Grammar of the Arabic Language, W. Wright, Third edition, volume 2, p. 300
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar, pp. 523 - 524
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, pp. 135 - 136



As we can see below..."ma", when joined to "wa", is simply a filler-word in this ayah...


وقولهم إنا قتلنا المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول
الله وما قتلوه وما صلبوه ولكن شبه لهم وإن
الذين اختلفوا فيه لفي شك منه ما لهم به من علم
إلا اتباع الظن وما قتلوه يقينا

Waqawlihim inna qatalna almaseeha AAeesa ibna maryama rasoola Allahi wama qataloohu wama salaboohu walakin shubbiha lahum wa-inna allatheena ikhtalafoo feehi lafee shakkin minhu ma lahum bihi min AAilmin illa ittibaAAa alththanni wama qataloohu yaqeenan

4.157 And their saying: "Certainly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son, “allah's” messenger”, and that they killed him, and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they differed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him, on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.



As witnessed by the plethora of positives in this ayah, the conditional mood is only positive.

Couple this, to the very next ayah, as thus…



بل رفعه الله إليه وكان الله عزيزا حكيما

Bal rafaAAahu Allahu ilayhi wakana Allahu AAazeezan hakeeman

4.158 But “allah”, he raised Him to him, and “allah” mighty, wise.




4.157 & 4.158 tell us of its most likely Biblical source...


This One given to you by the before-determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you having taken by lawless hands, having crucified Him, you killed Him. But God raised Him up, loosing the throes of death, because it was not possible for Him to be held by it. (Act 2.23 - 24)


As we can see, 4.157 & 4.158 are simply parroting NT material...


Thus, context is clear that in 4.157 “wama” is simply governing the verb in the conditional mood – which is positive….NOT negative.


Further, rendering this Islamic one-hit-wonder ayah as a negative would force other Koranic ayahs into contradiction.



As further evidence that 4.157 confirms Jesus’ death upon the cross, all the Koranic crucifixion instances are shown here, which confirm that the Koran always describes a crucifixion event with complete certainty of death…



• 5.33…they will be crucified till death
• 7.124…I will surely crucify you till death
• 12.41…so will be crucified till death
• 20.71…and I will surely crucify you till death
• 26.49…and I will surely crucify you till death


Death through crucifixion is always mandated in the Koran.

Thus, there is no reason at all to believe that 4.157 would break this trend…

jamie
November 19th, 2015, 10:51 PM
When Allah will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My favour upon thee and upon thy mother; when I strengthened thee with the Spirit of holiness so that thou didst speak to the people in the cradle and in middle age; and when I taught thee the Book and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when thou didst fashion a creation out of clay, in the likeness of a bird, by My command; then thou didst breathe into it a new spirit and it became a soaring being by My command; and thou didst heal the night-blind and the leprous by My command; and when thou didst raise the dead by My command; and when I restrained the children of Israel from putting thee to death when thou didst come to them with clear Signs; and those who disbelieved from among them said, ‘This is nothing but clear deception.’”
[5:111]

Greg Jennings
November 20th, 2015, 01:13 PM
how many people have you bombed?

when you guys type "pbuh" do you realize you sound retarded?

if i post a pic of Mohammed, will you go off the deep end?

Based on this statement, TOL must stand for tolerance

Greg Jennings
November 20th, 2015, 01:18 PM
The words of the Lord Jesus Christ are incompatible with islam.

Not really.

And before you say something like "It says to kill people in their book!" in order to try to prove that Islam and Jesus aren't compatible, I'll ask you to tell me how Abraham/David/Joshua and other Jewish leaders who preached and practiced violence against non-believers are compatible with Jesus, but Mohammed (who revered Jesus) isn't

jamie
November 20th, 2015, 01:56 PM
And before you say something like "It says to kill people in their book!" in order to try to prove that Islam and Jesus aren't compatible, I'll ask you to tell me how Abraham/David/Joshua and other Jewish leaders who preached and practiced violence against non-believers are compatible with Jesus, but Mohammed (who revered Jesus) isn't

Of course Mohammed revered Jesus, after all the Qur'an says that Allah created Jesus out of dust.


Surely, the case of Jesus with Allah is like the case of Adam. He created him out of dust, then He said to him, ‘Be!,’ and he was.
[3:60]

You believe Allah created Jesus out of dust don't you?

Greg Jennings
November 20th, 2015, 01:59 PM
Of course Mohammed revered Jesus, after all the Qur'an says that Allah created Jesus out of dust.


Surely, the case of Jesus with Allah is like the case of Adam. He created him out of dust, then He said to him, ‘Be!,’ and he was.
[3:60]

You believe Allah created Jesus out of dust don't you?

Well I'm agnostic, so I don't really have a set belief. The Koran also says that Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. I don't see how he could've been created from dust and also born of a woman

Apple7
November 20th, 2015, 07:51 PM
When Allah will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My favour upon thee and upon thy mother; when I strengthened thee with the Spirit of holiness so that thou didst speak to the people in the cradle and in middle age; and when I taught thee the Book and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when thou didst fashion a creation out of clay, in the likeness of a bird, by My command; then thou didst breathe into it a new spirit and it became a soaring being by My command; and thou didst heal the night-blind and the leprous by My command; and when thou didst raise the dead by My command; and when I restrained the children of Israel from putting thee to death when thou didst come to them with clear Signs; and those who disbelieved from among them said, ‘This is nothing but clear deception.’”
[5:111]


No Arabic support exists for inserting the term 'death' into this ayah.

jamie
November 20th, 2015, 07:54 PM
No Arabic support exists for inserting the term 'death' into this ayah.


So what did Allah restrain the children of Israel from?

Apple7
November 20th, 2015, 07:55 PM
Of course Mohammed revered Jesus, after all the Qur'an says that Allah created Jesus out of dust.


Surely, the case of Jesus with Allah is like the case of Adam. He created him out of dust, then He said to him, ‘Be!,’ and he was.
[3:60]

You believe Allah created Jesus out of dust don't you?


إن مثل عيسى عند الله كمثل ءادم خلقه من
تراب ثم قال له كن فيكون

Inna mathala AAeesa AAinda Allahi kamathali adama khalaqahu min turabin thumma qala lahu kun fayakoonu

3.59 Truly Jesus' similitude with allah, as/like Adam, He created him out of dust then said to him: "Be thou." so (he) is.




The message behind the rendering:

• Two comparisons are made “mathalu” & “kamathali”
• The first (former) comparison is between Jesus and “allah”
• “allah” is shown to be co-equal “mathalu” with Jesus
• Jesus is shown to have always existed “inna” with “inda” “allah”
• Jesus was not created
• The second (latter) comparison is redundant to the former
• The second comparison describes the creation “khalaqahu” of Adam
• It is referring to man…not to Jesus
• It is singular
• It refers to the act of measuring; or determining the measure, proportion, or the like, of a thing; and the making a thing by measure, or according to the measure of another thing; or proportioning a thing to another thing
• The originating or producing a thing after a pattern or model which one has devised, not after the similitude of anything pre-existing.
• As meaning the bringing into existence from a state of no-existence. As an act of God, signifies the creating out of nothing
• We are told that Adam was created, i.e. he had a beginning (out of nothing), in the likeness of his creator
• Adam is made from dust “turabin”
• The creation of man in this ayah is rooted in sura 86…which shares the same root as “turabin”
• The Word of “allah” brings forth Adam
• The Word i.e. Jesus is co-equal with “allah”
• Man is created through Jesus
• Jesus is God



Thus…it becomes quite clear that the second comparison of this ayah is simply re-enforcing the Biblical stance that Jesus (the Word) is what brought Adam into existence out of nothing.

intojoy
November 20th, 2015, 10:08 PM
Not really.

And before you say something like "It says to kill people in their book!" in order to try to prove that Islam and Jesus aren't compatible, I'll ask you to tell me how Abraham/David/Joshua and other Jewish leaders who preached and practiced violence against non-believers are compatible with Jesus, but Mohammed (who revered Jesus) isn't

Easy.

The bible is clear that Abe would not inherit the land in his lifetime. Why? For the iniquity of the land was not yet full. Full meaning the Cainaanites had time to repent. About 600 years.

The God of Abraham let the people continue their homosexuality, human sacrafice, beastiality and idolatry (demon worship) go on until they passed a line of no return.

Then like the flood, judgement fell and Joshua burns thru the infidels.

intojoy
November 20th, 2015, 10:11 PM
But keep in mind greg, that within the laws of Moses (613 not just 10) God made provisions for the Gentiles. The Jews were not told to kill them.

Also a huge difference is that Yeshua never once said to anyone to kill or convert. Something Mohamed did say and do.

jamie
November 20th, 2015, 10:17 PM
O People of the Book, exceed not the limits in your religion and say not of Allah anything but the truth. Verily, the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of Allah and a fulfilment of His word which He sent down to Mary, and a mercy from Him. So believe in Allah and His Messengers and say not ‘They are three.’ Desist, it will be better for you. Verily, Allah is the only One God. Far is it from His Holiness that He should have a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. And sufficient is Allah as a Guardian.
(4.172)

Apple7
November 20th, 2015, 10:34 PM
O People of the Book, exceed not the limits in your religion and say not of Allah anything but the truth. Verily, the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of Allah and a fulfilment of His word which He sent down to Mary, and a mercy from Him. So believe in Allah and His Messengers and say not ‘They are three.’ Desist, it will be better for you. Verily, Allah is the only One God. Far is it from His Holiness that He should have a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. And sufficient is Allah as a Guardian.
(4.172)


Mainstream renderings that proclaim that Jesus is the Son….



Literal…

You The Book's people, do not exaggerate/exceed the limit in your religion, and do not say on (about) God except the truth, but the Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son (is) God's messenger and His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him; so believe with God, and His messengers, and do not say: "Three." Stop (it is) best for you, but God (is) one God, His praise/glory that to be for him a child; for Him what (is) in the skies/space and what (is) in the earth/Planet Earth, enough/sufficient with God (as a) guardian/protector. (4.171)



Free-Minds…

O people of the Scripture, do not overstep in your system, nor say about God except the truth. Jesus the son of Mary was no more than God's messenger and the fulfillment of His word to Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and do not Say: "Trinity." Cease, for it is better for you. God is only One god, be He glorified that He should have a son! To Him is all that is in the heavens and what is in the Earth. God is enough as a caretaker. (4.171)



Arberry…

People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, 'Three.' Refrain; better is it for you. God is only One God. Glory be to Him -- That He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth; God suffices for a guardian. (4.171)

jamie
November 21st, 2015, 08:51 AM
And say, ‘All praise belongs to Allah Who has taken unto Himself no son, and Who has no partner in His Kingdom, nor has He anyone to help Him on account of weakness.’ And extol His glory with all glorification. (17.112)

jamie
November 21st, 2015, 09:33 AM
16. Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.

17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.

18. She said: "I seek refuge from thee to ((Allah)) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."

19. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."

22. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.

(Surah 19)

patrick jane
November 21st, 2015, 09:41 AM
And say, ‘All praise belongs to Allah Who has taken unto Himself no son, and Who has no partner in His Kingdom, nor has He anyone to help Him on account of weakness.’ And extol His glory with all glorification. (17.112)

Have you started using the word Allah now ? What's next ?

jamie
November 21st, 2015, 02:34 PM
Have you started using the word Allah now ? What's next ?


It's in the text.

Greg Jennings
November 21st, 2015, 02:48 PM
But keep in mind greg, that within the laws of Moses (613 not just 10) God made provisions for the Gentiles. The Jews were not told to kill them. Also a huge difference is that Yeshua never once said to anyone to kill or convert. Something Mohamed did say and do.
All true. But if you are good with David and other Israelite leaders slaughtering thousands, then it would stand to reason that you're good with Mohammed slaughtering hundreds

brewmama
November 21st, 2015, 03:34 PM
All true. But if you are good with David and other Israelite leaders slaughtering thousands, then it would stand to reason that you're good with Mohammed slaughtering hundreds

Why? The leaders of Israel were establishing and maintaining a land for God's chosen people, a tiny state called Israel. Islam has tyrannized and taken over a considerable portion of the world, including a large part of what was once called Christendom. And they have killed WAY more than "hundreds".

Greg Jennings
November 21st, 2015, 03:42 PM
Why? The leaders of Israel were establishing and maintaining a land for God's chosen people, a tiny state called Israel.
Okay. So it's okay for Israelites to kill and slaughter in the name of God, but not okay for Mohammed to kill in the name of God? Got it

Islam has tyrannized and taken over a considerable portion of the world, including a large part of what was once called Christendom.
Actually, the first crusade was held specifically to take over the holy land, which was territory under Muslim control for centuries. Jerusalem never was owned by Christians until they stole it (briefly) from the Muslims. What other parts of Christendom do you think they've stolen from you?

And they have killed WAY more than "hundreds".
I said that Mohammed and his followers killed hundreds. Not all Muslims combined.

brewmama
November 21st, 2015, 03:52 PM
Okay. So it's okay for Israelites to kill and slaughter in the name of God, but not okay for Mohammed to kill in the name of God? Got it

Actually, the first crusade was held specifically to take over the holy land, which was territory under Muslim control for centuries. Jerusalem never was owned by Christians until they stole it (briefly) from the Muslims. What other parts of Christendom do you think they've stolen from you?

I said that Mohammed and his followers killed hundreds. Not all Muslims combined.

To take BACK the Holy Land, which was Christian, along with all of the Middle East, Turkey, Egypt, and other parts of North Africa, and which were conquered by force by Islam. You really should study some history.

intojoy
November 21st, 2015, 04:08 PM
All true. But if you are good with David and other Israelite leaders slaughtering thousands, then it would stand to reason that you're good with Mohammed slaughtering hundreds


Not quite.
According to scripture the judges were supposed to keep the people segregated from the Gentiles in order as to not be taken by the idols.

The Israelites held the mountainous regions while the Gentiles had the plains. The seduction was that the gods of the Gentiles were superior because of their harvest productions and the erotic temple prostitutes was a strong attraction as well. Kind of like modern day porn.

By the time that the philistines came in, the Israelites had become fully cainanized.

Because of rebellion against Jehovah the Gentiles were not held back from Israel by God and thus the continual weakness of Israel to protect themselves. With David however, we see the addition of the Davidic Covenant which spelled out the eternal dynasty of the house of David. Because of this intervention of Jehovah the Jews now had tremendous success against their enemies.

Keep in mind greg that one only needs to look at Assyrian and Egyptian historical accounts of that era to ascertain the complete ruthlessness of the populations surrounding David.

Greg Jennings
November 21st, 2015, 04:20 PM
To take BACK the Holy Land, which was Christian, along with all of the Middle East, Turkey, Egypt, and other parts of North Africa, and which were conquered by force by Islam. You really should study some history.

Jerusalem (holy land) hadn't been Christian for several centuries prior to the crusades. So do you think that Britain has a right to invade the USA because they owned it 250 years ago?

Bright Raven
November 21st, 2015, 04:23 PM
Why does the Koran call for Jihad?

Greg Jennings
November 21st, 2015, 04:29 PM
Why does the Koran call for Jihad?

"The literal definition of the word jihad is: striving to achieve a goal, while the Quranic definition of the word is “striving with one’s self and one’s money in the cause of God”.

This Quranic definition is confirmed in a number of Quranic verses which speak of jihad. The following are some examples:

“The true believers are those who believe in God and His messenger, then attain the status of having no doubt whatsoever, and strive (jahadu) with their money and their lives in the cause of God. These are the truthful ones.” 49:15

“Those who believe, and emigrate, and strive (jahadu) in the cause of God with their money and their lives, are far greater in rank in the sight of God. These are the winners.” 9:20




“As for the messenger and those who believed with him, they eagerly strive (jahadu) with their money and their lives. These have deserved all the good things; they are the winners.” 9:88"

http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_3/the_concept_of_jihad_(P1360).html

Bright Raven
November 21st, 2015, 04:32 PM
"The literal definition of the word jihad is: striving to achieve a goal, while the Quranic definition of the word is “striving with one’s self and one’s money in the cause of God”.

This Quranic definition is confirmed in a number of Quranic verses which speak of jihad. The following are some examples:

“The true believers are those who believe in God and His messenger, then attain the status of having no doubt whatsoever, and strive (jahadu) with their money and their lives in the cause of God. These are the truthful ones.” 49:15

“Those who believe, and emigrate, and strive (jahadu) in the cause of God with their money and their lives, are far greater in rank in the sight of God. These are the winners.” 9:20




“As for the messenger and those who believed with him, they eagerly strive (jahadu) with their money and their lives. These have deserved all the good things; they are the winners.” 9:88"

http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_3/the_concept_of_jihad_(P1360).html

Then what do you call what is being done by such groups as ISIS?

Greg Jennings
November 21st, 2015, 04:36 PM
Then what do you call what is being done by such groups as ISIS?

"The concept of jihad is indeed a Quranic one, but sadly, a false and twisted version of this Quranic concept has been used by terrorists acting in the name of Islam to commit various terrorist acts. These terrorist acts, which occur all over the world, aim at the indiscriminate killing of innocent people. They are being undertaken in the name of “jihad”. These non-Islamic acts have gone a long way towards distorting the image of Islam."

Same source

Do you think that the Lord's Resistance Army (basically the Christian Boko Haram) represents Christianity well? Of course not. And just like them, ISIS doesn't represent Islam well

Bright Raven
November 21st, 2015, 04:44 PM
"The concept of jihad is indeed a Quranic one, but sadly, a false and twisted version of this Quranic concept has been used by terrorists acting in the name of Islam to commit various terrorist acts. These terrorist acts, which occur all over the world, aim at the indiscriminate killing of innocent people. They are being undertaken in the name of “jihad”. These non-Islamic acts have gone a long way towards distorting the image of Islam."

Same source

Do you think that the Lord's Resistance Army (basically the Christian Boko Haram) represents Christianity well? Of course not. And just like them, ISIS doesn't represent Islam well
Boko Haram, Christian? I don't know what your talking about.

patrick jane
November 21st, 2015, 04:44 PM
"The concept of jihad is indeed a Quranic one, but sadly, a false and twisted version of this Quranic concept has been used by terrorists acting in the name of Islam to commit various terrorist acts. These terrorist acts, which occur all over the world, aim at the indiscriminate killing of innocent people. They are being undertaken in the name of “jihad”. These non-Islamic acts have gone a long way towards distorting the image of Islam."

Same source

Do you think that the Lord's Resistance Army (basically the Christian Boko Haram) represents Christianity well? Of course not. And just like them, ISIS doesn't represent Islam well

The point is, Islam teaches that they must have a Jihad, which includes death and killing. It's their end purpose to dominate the world. It will never happen.

Greg Jennings
November 21st, 2015, 04:49 PM
Boko Haram, Christian? I don't know what your talking about.

You really have never heard of the Lord's Resistance Army? Here's a link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army

Greg Jennings
November 21st, 2015, 04:50 PM
The point is, Islam teaches that they must have a Jihad, which includes death and killing. It's their end purpose to dominate the world. It will never happen.

It really doesn't. See post #190.

Greg Jennings
November 21st, 2015, 04:51 PM
Boko Haram, Christian? I don't know what your talking about.

You really have never heard of the Lord's Resistance Army? Here's a link: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Resistance_Army

brewmama
November 21st, 2015, 05:58 PM
It really doesn't. See post #190.

And yet your quotes do not at all prove that striving for Allah does not mean killing infidels. Why are you such an apologist for Islam? Why do you call yourself Christian yet reject the history of the Jewish people as ordered by God?

Why do drink the koolaid of Islamism?

Greg Jennings
November 21st, 2015, 06:08 PM
And yet your quotes do not at all prove that striving for Allah does not mean killing infidels. Why are you such an apologist for Islam? Why do you call yourself Christian yet reject the history of the Jewish people as ordered by God?

Why do drink the koolaid of Islamism?

1. I'm agnostic, as my profile to the left will tell you

And yes, my quotes specifically show that killing infidels is not what is meant by jihad in the Quran, and that the term has been hijacked by extremists in order to justify violence

jamie
November 21st, 2015, 06:28 PM
And when you meet in regular battle those who disbelieve, smite their necks; and, when you have overcome them, bind fast the fetters — then afterwards either release them as a favour or by taking ransom — until the war lays down its burdens. That is the ordinance. And if Allah had so pleased, He could have punished them Himself, but He has willed that He may try some of you by others. And those who are killed in the way of Allah — He will never render their works vain.
[47:5]

Greg Jennings
November 21st, 2015, 06:34 PM
And when you meet in regular battle those who disbelieve, smite their necks; and, when you have overcome them, bind fast the fetters — then afterwards either release them as a favour or by taking ransom — until the war lays down its burdens. That is the ordinance. And if Allah had so pleased, He could have punished them Himself, but He has willed that He may try some of you by others. And those who are killed in the way of Allah — He will never render their works vain.
[47:5]

That's Mohammed talking to his men. He's talking about what they need to do then. It's not a blanket statement.

Just like when God said to go and slaughter the occupants of the Promised Land you know this is only applying to one situation, the same is true of this Surah

aikido7
November 21st, 2015, 06:52 PM
Wednesday Addams, the original poster of this topic needs to check in again and confront the questions s/he promised to confront and try to answer.

On TOL, Christians with their own personal theology of the faith are called to defend their beliefs every day.

The same should be done with any of the world’s faiths whose members join the conversation.

Angel4Truth
November 21st, 2015, 06:59 PM
Wednesday Addams, the original poster of this topic needs to check in again and confront the questions s/he promised to confront and try to answer.



Impossible, have you not noticed they were banned?

intojoy
November 21st, 2015, 07:03 PM
Greg is bein willful lay ignorant

aikido7
November 21st, 2015, 07:05 PM
Impossible, have you not noticed they were banned?You are absolutely correct.

My essential meaning was that if the poster is not allowed back into the topic, then all the comments about Islam can easily become a hate fest.

We have real questions on TOL and we should have available some legitimate, objective standard we can compare ourselves to. Without a Muslim scholar or a member of the Islamic faith, we will have no compass.

Greg Jennings
November 21st, 2015, 07:17 PM
Greg is bein willful lay ignorant
Am I? Let's compare. First, Mohammed:



And when you meet in regular battle those who disbelieve, smite their necks; and, when you have overcome them, bind fast the fetters — then afterwards either release them as a favour or by taking ransom — until the war lays down its burdens. That is the ordinance. And if Allah had so pleased, He could have punished them Himself, but He has willed that He may try some of you by others. And those who are killed in the way of Allah — He will never render their works vain.
[47:5]

Now here is God:
Deuteronomy 20

"13When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.

16However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17Completely destroya them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. 18Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God."


Tell me how what God commands is better?

jamie
November 21st, 2015, 08:57 PM
That's Mohammed talking to his men. He's talking about what they need to do then. It's not a blanket statement.


It's an ordinance that is not revoked anywhere in the Qur'an.

God will resurrect the dead in due time, all lives are his not Allah's.

Greg Jennings
November 21st, 2015, 09:35 PM
It's an ordinance that is not revoked anywhere in the Qur'an.

God will resurrect the dead in due time, all lives are his not Allah's.

God and Allah are both references to the God of Abraham. They are two names for the same being. You probably already know this, but Allah is simply God in Arabic. Arab Christians pray to Allah and Jesus

jamie
November 21st, 2015, 09:48 PM
God and Allah are both references to the God of Abraham. They are two names for the same being. You probably already know this, but Allah is simply God in Arabic. Arab Christians pray to Allah and Jesus



For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things and we for Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ through whom are all things and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6 NKJV)

Greg Jennings
November 21st, 2015, 10:06 PM
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things and we for Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ through whom are all things and through whom we live. (1 Corinthians 8:5-6 NKJV)

"God" is English. He wasn't called God until the 1500s or so because English as we know it didn't exist. Allah is likely a word that Jesus used to refer to him.

We get "God" from the German "Gott" which originally came from the Aramaic (which Jesus spoke) "Alilah" and the Syriac "Allah." Jesus didn't speak English. He spoke Aramaic, Hebrew, and maybe Greek. He never used the word "God."

intojoy
November 21st, 2015, 10:17 PM
Am I? Let's compare. First, Mohammed:







Now here is God:

Deuteronomy 20



"13When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it. 14As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the Lord your God gives you from your enemies. 15This is how you are to treat all the cities that are at a distance from you and do not belong to the nations nearby.



16However, in the cities of the nations the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes. 17Completely destroya them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the Lord your God has commanded you. 18Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the Lord your God."





Tell me how what God commands is better?


Yes you ignored my response to your claim. The one about Cainaanites

Greg Jennings
November 21st, 2015, 10:24 PM
Yes you ignored my response to your claim. The one about Cainaanites

The one about the judges keeping the Gentiles from the Israelites? No I saw it, but that scenario only occurs after the conquest of Israel. My passage is God telling his people what to do with the people of the land (Israel) they are about to conquer. And it's not pretty

intojoy
November 21st, 2015, 10:26 PM
An Isis terrorist is running thru the desert to escape Putin.
He's half dead from lack of water when he comes upon a Jewish man selling ties.

"I hate Jews and would not talk to one but I will die without water" give me some water!

Jew: I haven't got any water, just these nice ties only $5 would you like one?

Isis: no, I don't want your filthy western garb I'm a Muslim and I hate Jews, I'd like to take your tie and strangle you with it! Don't you have any water?

Jew: I'll tell you what, to prove to you that I'm the better man even tho you would kill me, if you go that way a kilometer more, you'll find a restaurant with all the water you can drink, now go and God bless you.

So he travels another kilometer

A little while later, the Jewish man sees the Isis crawling on the sand dying of thirst crawling toward him with a five dollar bill in his hand

Isis: he raises his hand and waves the $5

"They won't let me in without a tie!"

Child Please!

patrick jane
November 21st, 2015, 10:33 PM
An Isis terrorist is running thru the desert to escape Putin.
He's half dead from lack of water when he comes upon a Jewish man selling ties.

"I hate Jews and would not talk to one but I will die without water" give me some water!

Jew: I haven't got any water, just these nice ties only $5 would you like one?

Isis: no, I don't want your filthy western garb I'm a Muslim and I hate Jews, I'd like to take your tie and strangle you with it! Don't you have any water?

Jew: I'll tell you what, to prove to you that I'm the better man even tho you would kill me, if you go that way a kilometer more, you'll find a restaurant with all the water you can drink, now go and God bless you.

So he travels another kilometer

A little while later, the Jewish man sees the Isis crawling on the sand dying of thirst crawling toward him with a five dollar bill in his hand

Isis: he raises his hand and waves the $5

"They won't let me in without a tie!"

Child Please!

guffaw, chortle, snort

brewmama
November 21st, 2015, 10:50 PM
https://www.facebook.com/MichaelStevenRobbins/videos/1490748017921689/

brewmama
November 21st, 2015, 10:56 PM
1. I'm agnostic, as my profile to the left will tell you

And yes, my quotes specifically show that killing infidels is not what is meant by jihad in the Quran, and that the term has been hijacked by extremists in order to justify violence

No your quotes do not. How is it you know so well what the Quran means, and what it meant to the first Muslims?

intojoy
November 22nd, 2015, 02:17 AM
https://www.facebook.com/MichaelStevenRobbins/videos/1490748017921689/


Great

Apple7
November 22nd, 2015, 08:37 AM
God and Allah are both references to the God of Abraham. They are two names for the same being. You probably already know this, but Allah is simply God in Arabic. Arab Christians pray to Allah and Jesus


Any Jew or Christian that uses the term Allah when referring to the God of the Holy Bible, uses the term as a translation of the original Hebrew and Greek, only.

Apple7
November 22nd, 2015, 08:44 AM
16. Relate in the Book (the story of) Mary, when she withdrew from her family to a place in the East.

17. She placed a screen (to screen herself) from them; then We sent her our angel, and he appeared before her as a man in all respects.

18. She said: "I seek refuge from thee to ((Allah)) Most Gracious: (come not near) if thou dost fear Allah."

19. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.

20. She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?"

21. He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us':It is a matter (so) decreed."

22. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place.

(Surah 19)




The Son brings the End Times



وقالوا اتخذ الرحمن ولدا لقد جئتم شيءا إدا تكاد السموت يتفطرن منه وتنشق الأرض وتخر الجبال هدا أن دعوا للرحمن ولدا وما ينبغي للرحمن أن يتخذ ولدا

Waqaloo ittakhatha alrrahmanu waladan laqad ji/tum shay-an iddan takadu alssamawatu yatafattarna minhu watanshaqqu al-ardu watakhirru aljibalu haddan an daAAaw lilrrahmani waladan Wama yanbaghee lilrrahmani an yattakhitha waladan

And they said: "The most merciful he has taken a Son. Truly You came, a disastrous thing.” The heavens are well nigh (to) burst from Him and the earth she cleaves asunder and then later the mountains fall down into pieces violently with noise. That they called to the most merciful a Son. And that it is convenient to the most merciful that he takes a Son. 19.88 – 92


Contrary to popular Islamic thinking, these ayahs actually proclaim Jesus Christ as the “convenient” Son by first quoting what they said “qaloo”, and then shifting to the singular destruction which Jesus Christ brings during the end times as He opens the Seven seals of Revelation.

Apple7
November 22nd, 2015, 08:59 AM
The reasons I believe in a Unitarian God are:
1. a. This encompasses what I believe to be an All-Powerful, Perfectly Self-Sufficient, being to be. If we are thinking of a God being self-sufficient, we are talking epitomes here. The epitome of a self-sufficient God for example is one that does not operate in a multi-personhood. But He is instead self-sufficiently One.
When I looked up and prayed to God when I was young, without understanding God as described word for word in the Qur'an, it would appeal to my disposition to worship an All-Powerful singular Person. Go to your churches today and you'll see people can't consistently explain what the trinity is. They'd probably even get stumped if you asked them the wrong argument 'If Jesus is God and Jesus died on the cross, that means God died, how can God die?'. A lot of them would understand the trinity wrongly, in a modalist sense, also. It's just not practically and instinctively understood even after 2000 years let alone a random illiterate, uneducated, non-critical thinking, fruits marketseller in Galilee in the year 30 AD. But the Oneness of God is understandable to all.




Sura 53 exemplifies that the Koranic authors understood the Biblical Trinity…



علمه شديد القوى

AAallamahu shadeedu alquwa

53.5 He taught him, Lord of the mighty powers.


Summary of 53.5, as compared to The Biblical Book of Revelation:

• The opening chapter of Revelation informs us that John’s witness is “martureo”, i.e. “affirming that one has seen or heard or experienced something, or that he knows it because taught by divine revelation or inspiration”
• The teaching is done by Jesus Christ
• Jesus taught “him”
• Jesus taught John
• Jesus’ divine Revelation to John emanates from the Triune Creator God of the Holy Bible, as demonstrated by the greeting contained in the opening of Revelation chapter one
• This greeting, from the one God, is from:

1. Father
2. Son
3. Spirit

• 53.5 builds upon 53.4 by informing us of the divine singular source of John’s inspiration
• 53.5 begins by using the word “AAallamahu”, which means, “He taught him”
• All Koranic usages of the word “AAallamahu”, & “waAAallamahu” refer exclusively to “allah”
• Hence, we have yet another classic example of the “allah” of the Koran attempting to emulate the deity position occupied by Jesus Christ

1. Jesus taught him
2. “allah” taught him

• 53.5 continues to describe who taught John via the usage of “shadeedu alquwa”, which is rendered “Lord of the Mighty Powers”
• Interestingly, per the classic definition, “shadeedu” can be applied to a man
• Special note goes to “alquwa”, which is plural – not singular
• Observe what has just occurred in this sura:

1. The singular inspiration source, as defined in 53.4, is confirmed as “allah”
2. 53.5 describes “allah” as being Lord of the Might powers (plural)
3. “Allah” is singular, and yet plural

• Amazing as it is, the authors of the Koran have imputed the Triune deity of the Biblical God into their newly created god “allah”



Next…



ذو مرة فاستوى

Thoo mirratin faistawa

53.6 Lord of one action, so to be equal.



Summary of 53.6, as compared to The Biblical Book of Revelation:

• The opening chapter of Revelation repeatedly tells us of the Triune nature of the One God
• The God revealed in Revelation is Uniplural in nature
• Just as 53.5 describes a singular Lord with plural powers; 53.6 continues to describe this singular Lord via usage of the singular demonstrative pronoun “thoo”
• The overwhelming Koranic usage of “thoo” pertains to “allah”, and is best rendered “Lord of”, as it pertains to something in possession
• 53.6 tells us that the thing in possession is of one action (mirratin)
• This “one action” is juxtaposed to the copulative particle “fa”, which indicates either definite cause and effect, or a natural sequence of events
• The one-action cause (“mirratin”) has the effect of “istawa”, which is singular, in the perfect tense (completed action), and indicates “it was made, or became, symmetrical; congruous, or consistent in its several parts”
• All of this applies to the Lord (i.e. Jesus)
• Further, the only other Koranic location of “faistawa” occurs in 48.29 and specifically refers to Jesus’ Parable of the Growing Seed
• Thus, we have further Koranic confirmation that the singular Lord actually consists of a plurality that functions with a singular action

jamie
November 22nd, 2015, 10:46 AM
And they said: "The most merciful he has taken a Son. Truly You came, a disastrous thing.” The heavens are well nigh (to) burst from Him and the earth she cleaves asunder and then later the mountains fall down into pieces violently with noise. That they called to the most merciful a Son. And that it is convenient to the most merciful that he takes a Son. 19.88 – 92[/color]



88. And they say: "The Most Beneficent (Allah) has begotten a son (or offspring or children) [as the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say that He has begotten a son ['Iesa (Christ)], and the pagan Arabs say that He has begotten daughters (angels, etc.)]."

89. Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing.

90. Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins,

91. That they ascribe a son (or offspring or children) to the Most Beneficent (Allah).

92. But it is not suitable for (the Majesty of) the Most Beneficent (Allah) that He should beget a son (or offspring or children). (19.88-92)

Also in a different translation:


88. And they say, "The Most Merciful has begotten a son."

89. You have come up with something monstrous.

90. At which the heavens almost rupture, and the earth splits, and the mountains fall and crumble.

91. Because they attribute a son to the Most Merciful.

92. It is not fitting for the Most Merciful to have a son.
(19.88-92)

Greg Jennings
November 22nd, 2015, 11:13 AM
No your quotes do not. How is it you know so well what the Quran means, and what it meant to the first Muslims?

They do, but feel free to deny.

Because I've actually conversed with Muslims about it. Whereas you get your opinions from anti-Muslim, Christian websites. See the difference?

Greg Jennings
November 22nd, 2015, 11:17 AM
Any Jew or Christian that uses the term Allah when referring to the God of the Holy Bible, uses the term as a translation of the original Hebrew and Greek, only.

Well actually, you're the one translating it into English. You're correct that 'Allah' came after 'YHWH,' 'Elohim,' and the Aramaic 'Alilah' (a word Jesus actually spoke. Sounds a lot like Allah, doesn't it?). But the Muslims in that region are also translating the name of God into their language.

The word 'Allah' came long before the word 'God', btw

brewmama
November 22nd, 2015, 03:19 PM
They do, but feel free to deny.

Because I've actually conversed with Muslims about it. Whereas you get your opinions from anti-Muslim, Christian websites. See the difference?

No not at all. You obviously ignore anything posted and all the evidence that plenty of Muslims disagree with you, and just continue to claim things that have no basis.
Not to mention that some current Muslims are trying desperately to rehabilitate their image, and say anything, which you evidently believe without question.

Greg Jennings
November 22nd, 2015, 04:10 PM
Deleted

Apple7
November 22nd, 2015, 04:11 PM
88. And they say: "The Most Beneficent (Allah) has begotten a son (or offspring or children) [as the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say that He has begotten a son ['Iesa (Christ)], and the pagan Arabs say that He has begotten daughters (angels, etc.)]."

89. Indeed you have brought forth (said) a terrible evil thing.

90. Whereby the heavens are almost torn, and the earth is split asunder, and the mountains fall in ruins,

91. That they ascribe a son (or offspring or children) to the Most Beneficent (Allah).

92. But it is not suitable for (the Majesty of) the Most Beneficent (Allah) that He should beget a son (or offspring or children). (19.88-92)

Also in a different translation:


88. And they say, "The Most Merciful has begotten a son."

89. You have come up with something monstrous.

90. At which the heavens almost rupture, and the earth splits, and the mountains fall and crumble.

91. Because they attribute a son to the Most Merciful.

92. It is not fitting for the Most Merciful to have a son.
(19.88-92)


There is absolutely no denial that Jesus is The Son in the Arabic.

The only thing that was rendered correctly was the end-time-events, as recorded in the Book of Revelation (its source)....and Jesus is responsible for this as He opens the seals....

Greg Jennings
November 22nd, 2015, 04:12 PM
No not at all. You obviously ignore anything posted and all the evidence that plenty of Muslims disagree with you, and just continue to claim things that have no basis.
Not to mention that some current Muslims are trying desperately to rehabilitate their image, and say anything, which you evidently believe without question.

How many Muslims do you know?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say 0. If you think that accuracy comes from viewing only one side of an argument and ignoring the other, you're a fool. Plain and simple. That's like only watching CNN or Fox News and expecting unbiased reporting

Apple7
November 22nd, 2015, 04:15 PM
Well actually, you're the one translating it into English. You're correct that 'Allah' came after 'YHWH,' 'Elohim,' and the Aramaic 'Alilah' (a word Jesus actually spoke. Sounds a lot like Allah, doesn't it?). But the Muslims in that region are also translating the name of God into their language.

The word 'Allah' came long before the word 'God', btw


The 'allah' spoken of in the Koran is rooted in pagan Arab idol worship.

The 'allah' of the Koran is a false god, and has nothing in common with Yahweh.

Greg Jennings
November 22nd, 2015, 04:22 PM
The 'allah' spoken of in the Koran is rooted in pagan Arab idol worship.

The 'allah' of the Koran is a false god, and has nothing in common with Yahweh.

No, friend. I doubt you're actually open to the facts of it all, but El/Elohim (you know, the name of the God of Abraham in some of the Old Testament?) is the name of the Canaanite god, El. That's pretty pagan man.

I don't remember there being an Allah in Canaanite religion.....hmm...

Apple7
November 22nd, 2015, 04:32 PM
No, friend. I doubt you're actually open to the facts of it all, but El/Elohim (you know, the name of the God of Abraham in some of the Old Testament?) is the name of the Canaanite god, El. That's pretty pagan man.

I don't remember there being an Allah in Canaanite religion.....hmm...

Let's look...

ד שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד.

Shama’ Yisra’el Yahweh Elohim Yahweh Echad

Deu 6:4 Hear,8085 O Israel:3478 Yahweh3068 our God430 Yahweh3068 (is)one259



יְהוָה = “Yahweh”

“Yahweh” definition:

H3068 Singular noun. The Tetragrammaton YHWH, the Lord, or Yahweh, the personal name of God and His most frequent designation in scripture, occurring 5321x. The word refers to the proper name of the God of Israel, particularly the name by which He revealed Himself to Moses (Ex: 6.2-3). It comes from the root “hawa” H1961, which means either existence, or development; “to be”. “The existing one”.

H1961 “hawa” A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

H1933 “havah” A primitive root supposed to mean properly to breathe; to be (in the sense of existence): - be, X have.


References:
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich, & Geoffrey W. Bromiley, volume three, pp. 1067 - 1081
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) #484a, Harris, Archer, Waltke, volume 1, pp. 210 – 212
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the Old Testament, Warren Baker, Eugene Carpenter, p. 426





ד שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד.


אֱלֹהֵינוּ = “Elohim”

“Elohim” definition:

H430 A masculine plural noun. God, gods, judges, angels. This is not a “Plural of Majesty”. A better reason can be seen in scripture itself where, in the very first chapter of Genesis, the necessity of a term conveying both the unity of the one God and yet allowing for a plurality of persons is found (Gen 1.2, 26). This is further borne out by the fact that the form “Elohim” occurs only in Hebrew and in no other Semitic language, not even in Biblical Aramaic. Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

H433 “eloah” Masculine singular noun. God or god. From H410; a deity or the deity: - God, god. See H430.


References:
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) #93c, Harris, Archer, Waltke, volume 1, pp. 41 - 45
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the Old Testament, Warren Baker, Eugene Carpenter, p. 54
The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible Red-letter Edition, James Strong, LL.D., S.T.D., Hebrew and Aramaic dictionary, p. 17






ד שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד.



אֶחָד = “echad”

“echad” definition:

H259 Adjective. One, same, single, first, each, once. It is closely identified with “yahad”, to be united and with “ro’sh”, first, head. It stresses unity while recognizing diversity within that oneness. A numerical adjective meaning one, first, once, the same. A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together. One (number), each, every, a certain, an (indefinite article), only, once, once for all, one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one, first, eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal).

H258 “achad” Verb. Perhaps a primitive root; to unify, that is, (figuratively) collect (one’s thoughts): - go one way or other; be sharp, keen.


References:
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) #61, #605, Harris, Archer, Waltke, volume 1, p. 30, 263
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the Old Testament, Warren Baker, Eugene Carpenter, p. 33
The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible Red-letter Edition, James Strong, LL.D., S.T.D., Hebrew and Aramaic dictionary, p. 10

disturbo
November 22nd, 2015, 04:35 PM
ddddd

brewmama
November 22nd, 2015, 04:43 PM
How many Muslims do you know?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say 0. If you think that accuracy comes from viewing only one side of an argument and ignoring the other, you're a fool. Plain and simple. That's like only watching CNN or Fox News and expecting unbiased reporting

I'm glad you realize that. Now if you would only put it into practice.

Greg Jennings
November 22nd, 2015, 05:13 PM
I'm glad you realize that. Now if you would only put it into practice.

Ironic coming from someone who posted a link to an anti-Islam, pro-Christian site earlier as corroboration. You don't get much more biased than that

brewmama
November 22nd, 2015, 05:14 PM
Ironic coming from someone who posted a link to an anti-Islam, pro-Christian site earlier as corroboration. You don't get much more biased than that

Are you talking about the Muslim woman who grew up in the Middle East? Guess you didn't watch it.

Greg Jennings
November 22nd, 2015, 05:15 PM
Let's look...

ד שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד.

Shama’ Yisra’el Yahweh Elohim Yahweh Echad

Deu 6:4 Hear,8085 O Israel:3478 Yahweh3068 our God430 Yahweh3068 (is)one259



יְהוָה = “Yahweh”

“Yahweh” definition:

H3068 Singular noun. The Tetragrammaton YHWH, the Lord, or Yahweh, the personal name of God and His most frequent designation in scripture, occurring 5321x. The word refers to the proper name of the God of Israel, particularly the name by which He revealed Himself to Moses (Ex: 6.2-3). It comes from the root “hawa” H1961, which means either existence, or development; “to be”. “The existing one”.

H1961 “hawa” A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

H1933 “havah” A primitive root supposed to mean properly to breathe; to be (in the sense of existence): - be, X have.


References:
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament (TDNT), Gerhard Kittel, Gerhard Friedrich, & Geoffrey W. Bromiley, volume three, pp. 1067 - 1081
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) #484a, Harris, Archer, Waltke, volume 1, pp. 210 – 212
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the Old Testament, Warren Baker, Eugene Carpenter, p. 426





ד שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד.


אֱלֹהֵינוּ = “Elohim”

“Elohim” definition:

H430 A masculine plural noun. God, gods, judges, angels. This is not a “Plural of Majesty”. A better reason can be seen in scripture itself where, in the very first chapter of Genesis, the necessity of a term conveying both the unity of the one God and yet allowing for a plurality of persons is found (Gen 1.2, 26). This is further borne out by the fact that the form “Elohim” occurs only in Hebrew and in no other Semitic language, not even in Biblical Aramaic. Plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative: - angels, X exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.

H433 “eloah” Masculine singular noun. God or god. From H410; a deity or the deity: - God, god. See H430.


References:
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) #93c, Harris, Archer, Waltke, volume 1, pp. 41 - 45
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the Old Testament, Warren Baker, Eugene Carpenter, p. 54
The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible Red-letter Edition, James Strong, LL.D., S.T.D., Hebrew and Aramaic dictionary, p. 17






ד שְׁמַע, יִשְׂרָאֵל: יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵינוּ, יְהוָה אֶחָד.



אֶחָד = “echad”

“echad” definition:

H259 Adjective. One, same, single, first, each, once. It is closely identified with “yahad”, to be united and with “ro’sh”, first, head. It stresses unity while recognizing diversity within that oneness. A numerical adjective meaning one, first, once, the same. A numeral from H258; properly united, that is, one; or (as an ordinal) first: - a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any (-thing), apiece, a certain [dai-] ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together. One (number), each, every, a certain, an (indefinite article), only, once, once for all, one...another, the one...the other, one after another, one by one, first, eleven (in combination), eleventh (ordinal).

H258 “achad” Verb. Perhaps a primitive root; to unify, that is, (figuratively) collect (one’s thoughts): - go one way or other; be sharp, keen.


References:
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (TWOT) #61, #605, Harris, Archer, Waltke, volume 1, p. 30, 263
The Complete Wordstudy Dictionary of the Old Testament, Warren Baker, Eugene Carpenter, p. 33
The New Strong’s Expanded Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible Red-letter Edition, James Strong, LL.D., S.T.D., Hebrew and Aramaic dictionary, p. 10

Apple, I have examined your identical arguments in much older threads. You've been corrected repeatedly, but continue to spout the same unsourced nonsense as usual. If you are set on being a bigot, I can't change that. But know that honest people don't do what you do.

Anyone that wants to actually find the truth should do their own independent research, and not rely on what an admittedly biased site with a clear agenda tells them. Use multiple sources, and use reliable ones. What are reliable sources? If the site is university-affiliated or end in .gov or .org, you're normally in the clear. If it says something like, "Islam is the devil!" or "Christians are infidels!" in the title, it's likely not a great source

Greg Jennings
November 22nd, 2015, 05:22 PM
Are you talking about the Muslim woman who grew up in the Middle East? Guess you didn't watch it.

Women absolutely are mistreated in too much of middle-eastern Muslim culture. There's no denying that. But that's a whole different, unrelated issue than "jihad".

brewmama
November 22nd, 2015, 05:23 PM
Women absolutely are mistreated in too much of middle-eastern Muslim culture. There's no denying that. But that's a whole different, unrelated issue than "jihad".

So you still haven't watched it, huh?

Greg Jennings
November 22nd, 2015, 05:35 PM
So you still haven't watched it, huh?

I watched four minutes. It became clear after 30 seconds that there was no corroboration for this woman's claims, you're just taking them at face value because it fits what you want to hear. Anyone can say whatever they want on Facebook. Surprisingly, this doesn't make it true or even slightly credible. Get actual facts from real sources to back up her words and you're right. Until then, it's simply one woman's Facebook video post.

Do you think there aren't a thousand Facebook videos from Muslims saying similar things about Christianity? Again, anybody can say anything on Facebook, and that doesn't make it true

Apple7
November 22nd, 2015, 07:19 PM
Apple, I have examined your identical arguments in much older threads. You've been corrected repeatedly, but continue to spout the same unsourced nonsense as usual. If you are set on being a bigot, I can't change that. But know that honest people don't do what you do.

You should be able to provide links, if this were true.

But...you have none.

Furthermore, name-calling won't help your cause.






Anyone that wants to actually find the truth should do their own independent research, and not rely on what an admittedly biased site with a clear agenda tells them. Use multiple sources, and use reliable ones. What are reliable sources? If the site is university-affiliated or end in .gov or .org, you're normally in the clear. If it says something like, "Islam is the devil!" or "Christians are infidels!" in the title, it's likely not a great source

Let us know when you are finished raging...

Greg Jennings
November 22nd, 2015, 07:29 PM
You should be able to provide links, if this were true.

But...you have none.

Furthermore, name-calling won't help your cause.



In the thread I referenced previously where I observed you interacting with someone who continually proved you wrong, links were provided by the person showing you up. You ignored them repeatedly. Do you think I'm going to fall into this trap of giving you links you'll never consider reading? Child, please. I've got better things to do, shockingly.


Let us know when you are finished raging...

I'm finished. But you've been going strong for over a year now (as the thread I referenced shows). I think the real question is: when are YOU going to stop raging about this?

Apple7
November 22nd, 2015, 07:35 PM
In the thread I referenced previously where I observed you interacting with someone who continually proved you wrong, links were provided by the person showing you up. You ignored them repeatedly. Do you think I'm going to fall into this trap of giving you links you'll never consider reading? Child, please. I've got better things to do, shockingly.

I called your bluff.






I'm finished. But you've been going strong for over a year now (as the thread I referenced shows). I think the real question is: when are YOU going to stop raging about this?

You have yet to reference anything.

brewmama
November 22nd, 2015, 07:43 PM
I watched four minutes. It became clear after 30 seconds that there was no corroboration for this woman's claims, you're just taking them at face value because it fits what you want to hear. Anyone can say whatever they want on Facebook. Surprisingly, this doesn't make it true or even slightly credible. Get actual facts from real sources to back up her words and you're right. Until then, it's simply one woman's Facebook video post.

Do you think there aren't a thousand Facebook videos from Muslims saying similar things about Christianity? Again, anybody can say anything on Facebook, and that doesn't make it true

She was raised Muslim. She wasn't Christian. She is very believable and knows her stuff. She is certainly NOT the only Muslim (or es-Muslim) out there speaking with knowledge about Islam. You claim to have the "truth" about Islam, yet you reject everything that Muslims themselves say if it doesn't agree with your views.

Greg Jennings
November 22nd, 2015, 08:14 PM
I called your bluff.
Sure. If you want this "win" then take it. You clearly need it more than I.


You have yet to reference anything.
Fine. You got me to bite. Read it and weep.


Etymology

Further information: El (deity), Ilah, Alaha and Allah
The Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible defines "elohim" as a plural of eloah, an expanded form of the common Semitic noun "'il" (ʾēl).[3] It contains an added heh as third radical to the biconsonantal root. Discussions of the etymology of elohim essentially concern this expansion. An exact cognate outside of Hebrew is found in Ugaritic ʾlhm, the family of El, the creator god and chief deity of the Canaanite pantheon, in Biblical Aramaic ʼĔlāhā and later Syriac Alaha "God", and in Arabic ʾilāh "god, deity" (or Allah as " The [single] God").

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohim

They're the same, bucko

Greg Jennings
November 22nd, 2015, 08:17 PM
She was raised Muslim. She wasn't Christian. She is very believable and knows her stuff. She is certainly NOT the only Muslim (or es-Muslim) out there speaking with knowledge about Islam. You claim to have the "truth" about Islam, yet you reject everything that Muslims themselves say if it doesn't agree with your views.

No, I accept words backed with facts. I've personally conversed with Muslims about this. Can you say the same? No. I have read the Quran and done research on it, including courses at university. Can you say the same? No.

But of course, a Facebook video from a random person trumps all, doesn't it? Especially when backed by anti-Muslim websites!

disturbo
November 22nd, 2015, 08:23 PM
dddddd

Greg Jennings
November 22nd, 2015, 08:25 PM
Your an Islamic apologetic. And very misled as well!

Contrary to popular belief here, not being a Christian apologist doesn't make me a Muslim apologist. It's called being objective

disturbo
November 22nd, 2015, 08:28 PM
dddd

Greg Jennings
November 22nd, 2015, 08:33 PM
What you call objectivity I call misguided and misinformed.

Yep. The guy who is misinformed about Islam is the only one who has ever bothered to talk to an actual Muslim about it.


Nice logic there. Really great stuff

disturbo
November 22nd, 2015, 08:40 PM
ddddd

Greg Jennings
November 22nd, 2015, 08:48 PM
I've know Muslims probably since before you were born and helped them get back into Greece from Germany. That was 1974.

Terrorism hasn't hit you close enough yet.

My mailman lost his bridesmaid on the plane that hit the south tower. The pilot of the plane that hit the north tower was from NH. Beheading victim Jim Foley is from NH. Steven Sotloff another beheading victim went to school in NH. Last week a young man from NH was shot by a Palestinian in Israel.

I truly am sorry for those that you knew and lost. And I think you are in a better position than anyone to understand exactly why these people are mad at us.

Just like you are angry at them because you lost a friend, they too have lost friends, and also family, to US attacks. That's why it's imperative that we try to stay away from occupying this region: mistakes are going to happen, leading to Muslims dying. And the relatives of those who are killed will grow up to hate America because they think we murdered their brothers or sisters or parents or friends.

It's not a coincidence that the "jihadists" around now were mostly children when the Gulf War was going on. They grew up hating us because they or somebody they knew lost a loved one to a bomb or errant gunfire. The longer you hold occupied territory, the more of these mistakes will accumulate, and the longer this problem lasts